Brewing a New Legacy: How Kerehaklu’s Pranoy Thipaiah is Rethinking Coffee, Culture, and Climate

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Hi everyone, this is Sim, this is Kau. Welcome
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to this episode of the podcast where we dive
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into the world of Indian speciality coffee, climate
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resilience and the delicate balance between tradition
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and innovation. Today we are joined by Pranoy
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Thapaya, the fifth generation steward of Kere
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Haklu estate nestled in the heart of Karnataka's
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Western Ghats. Pranoy is far more than just a
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coffee farmer. He's redefining Indian coffee
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cultivation by blending ecological practices
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with bold innovative processing methods infused
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with... the art of storytelling. At its 250 -acre
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estate, sustainable farming takes center stage,
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where ancient fig trees stand as silent guardians
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over coffee plants and local microbes fuel experiential
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fermentations, crafting coffees that are deeply
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connected to their territory. Beyond the estate,
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Pranoy wears many hats. He moonlights as a consultant
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and educator, sharing his knowledge of coffee,
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agriculture and regenerative practices. He's
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also an avid cook, an insatiable traveller and
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a part -time football coach. Pranoy's work goes
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beyond what's grown in the soil. His work truly
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bridges the gap. between protecting biodiversity,
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adapting to changing weather patterns and tapping
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into India's growing coffee scene, all while
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tackling the challenges of the changing climate,
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colonial narratives and the global trade inequalities.
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Today, we'll dive into all of this, exploring
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how coffee, climate and culture intersect through
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the lens of someone who is not just growing beans,
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but building a future. So welcome, Pranoy. Let's
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get into it. When we think of you and we think
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of Kere Haklu, it's really synonymous with storytelling,
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the way you all tell the story about yourselves
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and about your estate. So we wanted to do something
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fun and ask you, what is the story of bringing
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coffee in India? Because it's quite a cool story.
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Yeah, it is. Thank you guys for having me. And
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yeah, it's actually an interesting... um history
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that we've got in india and the subcontinent
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in general where um so the arabica species originated
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in ethiopia in east africa and um from there
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through various methods and ways it traveled
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to different parts of the world and the first
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place it went to was yemen and um it was in yemen
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for a while and over there sort of advancements
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happened many, many hundred years ago. And from
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there, for the first time to leave what we call
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the Arabian Peninsula, coffee came to India and
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Sri Lanka. And it was actually transported or
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smuggled, actually, in a Sufi saint. sufi saint's
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beard and his name was baba budan and um he got
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seven beans seven being a sacred number um in
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his beard over to india and the hills of chick
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maglur where we live my family and i live and
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um yeah since then it's been uh it was commercialized
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by the british it was upscaled at hundreds of
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thousands of acres of coffee plantations as we
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know it today but um Yeah, it's a cool history
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and not many people know, but our coffee in India
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is a lot older than South American coffee, for
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example. And so that's something I think we can
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use to our benefit in different ways. And it's
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also fascinating that the first place coffee
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came and was grown is the same place your estate
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is in. So the history over there is quite fascinating.
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Yeah, yeah, it's really cool and a lot to work
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with, yeah. Yeah, so I think to double down on
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that, why don't you tell us a little bit more
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about Kerehaklu in terms of, you know, the legacy,
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the history, and also present day and your definition
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of it as, you know, really this ecosystem and
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this biodiversity that exists. Yeah, Kerehaklu's
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been... in our family since 1953 my great great
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granddad was originally a rice farmer and then
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he was the first person to convert into coffee
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and it's been coffee ever since and um alongside
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our coffee unlike a lot of um odd coffee origins
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as we call them around the world we actually
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grow other things in the form of black pepper
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and avocados and jackfruit and all kinds of things
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and so It's funny you ask about legacy because
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I often find myself thinking about that a lot
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and what am I leaving that maybe the generations
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before me left behind. But yeah, everyone's had
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a different role to play, different sort of approaches
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to the land and also the land use patterns. And
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so right now, if I could sum it up as... in a
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short or not so short sentence it would be uh
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it's a bit of an ever evolving ecosystem and
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uh why i say that is because we have a lot of
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flora fauna and fungi which is part of our daily
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lives and actually plays a huge role in how the
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coffee for example tastes and so um by always
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um trying to readjust how we look at things but
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overall we're agriculturists and conservationists
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at the same time I could say yeah just like a
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deeper question about for you and your relationship
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with the land because you got into coffee specifically
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after 2019 right and before that you had your
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own journey where you were in Australia and before
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that obviously you've grown up with the land
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so how has your relationship with it changed
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from yeah and evolved yeah it seems a lot um
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i think there's a lot more something small like
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i used to go on hikes with my dad and he would
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see one plant either like let's say that was
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hit by physically hit by a bison or let's say
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a pest or something like that and i could see
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him being a bit upset or disappointed and i could
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never really fathom that i'm like oh that's one
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of a few hundred thousand plants so yeah but
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That's me now. There's a lot of care for every
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single plan, every single thing that we do. And
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so I think there's a lot more accountability
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that I put on myself, probably. And I think it's
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a gradual progression of life on an estate because,
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like right now, I have my dad working alongside
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me and overseeing a lot of stuff that... I'm
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not experienced enough to do, but one day it'll
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just be me. And so it's a scary thought, that's
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for sure. But I think I'm ready. I think I'll,
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yeah, I'll find a good balance and be, yeah,
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have enough tools to take it on. Yeah. And specifically,
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if we get like, you know, what is your role right
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now? So it's cool because. I would say if you're
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looking at coffee, we've divided the value chain
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up, or at least the farm level side of the value
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chain up, where coffee can be divided up as the
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agricultural and agronomical side of things,
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where you actually grow and you look at increasing
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production and things like that, which my dad
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has been doing for a long time. A new advent
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is... specialty coffee and so like you mentioned
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since 2019 i've been so as soon as the we have
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a harvest season for four months between november
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and feb sometimes march um as soon as the coffee
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fruits or the cherries are picked that's when
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i come in i as my sort of decisions are made
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then where it's a very quality driven approach
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that i'm not saying we didn't have in the past
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but It was more focused on volumes in the past.
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And so, yeah, as soon as the fruit is picked,
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I figure out the fermentation, the drying process,
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and that can take anywhere between two and four
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weeks. And so from then on, I start tasting the
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coffees, and it's a long process where it's taken
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me a lot of time and practice to get to the stage
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where my palate is pretty good and pretty close
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to a professional's, but not fully there yet.
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then we begin offering the samples to overseas
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buyers or internet i say local or overseas buyers
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and um yeah that becomes another few months and
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then we have to actually ship the coffee so um
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it's i've kind of added new roles that didn't
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exist before but at the same time um fully respecting
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what my dad is good at i think that's something
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that i learned very quickly is you can't do everything.
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And I was like, just delegate. Or rather, he
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decided that, actually, I should say, put it
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that way, because we realized what we're both
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good at, and we're doing it side by side. Yeah.
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When you're talking, you can see the journey
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of like, I guess, coffee in India and how it's
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grown and where it's come to right now with speciality
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coffee. The earliest memory I have of coffee
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is having a filter coffee with my grandmother
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when I was in Kerala. And then moving on to when
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we were in school or college and you see these
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CCD chains and that's what coffee was to us when
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we were maybe younger. But now there is a Subco,
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there's a Blue Turquoise, there's a lot of conversation
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of single origin coffee, speciality coffee. So
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how have you... seen that journey grow in India
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and what are your thoughts on it and just with
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regards to speciality coffee in general like
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how have you seen it grow in India and how are
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you taking it globally as well yeah no it's what
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do you say but sort of I still drink filter coffee
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with my grandmom you know and if I have a dosa
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that's the thing I have at the end of the meal
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also yeah yeah and And I think that's the beauty
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of it. That's where we started. And we still
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go, there's a huge population in our country
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who only drink South Indian filter coffee. But
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I always look at that as our roots. And there's
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been an evolution of the palette, of preferences,
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of brewing styles, of all these different things
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which have worked or sort of come together hand
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in hand. And like you mentioned, Coffee Day was
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a big one because it made... hey let's go for
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a coffee or thing yeah like whether you're on
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a date yeah a date or whatever first meeting
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or just a catch -up with your friends or whatever
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might be it up until that point going for a coffee
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wasn't really a thing and so in India at least
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yeah and so um that was huge that was a huge
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um change in the mindset of actually as opposed
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to having a 10 rupee roadside or a very quick
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60 90 ml cup of coffee which you're finishing
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in a few minutes here you're sitting down and
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having a conversation over it um specialty in
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the last seven eight ten years um has been an
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origin focused sort of approach where there is
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quality and there's sort of qc protocols that
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go in with the fermentation and sort of hygiene
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procedures. But at the same time, we have this
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thing called cup scores where out of between
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zero and 100, we have a score and anything above
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80 is considered a specialty coffee. But I would
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argue that there's more to that. There's transparency.
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There's a lot of work that goes into it. It's
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not as simple as a number. And so, but yeah,
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now we're seeing something which maybe when I
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started off in 2019, started working with coffee,
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like seeing your family name or your estate name
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on a bag of coffee was super rare. You know,
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it would just say Chick Magalur, Karnataka. And
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it's a blend of all kinds of coffees. And that's
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just how things were. But now it's... It's highly
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specific. You know, it's like it's from this
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block and this estate. This nanoplot. Yeah, yeah.
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And this altitude. And I like to give details.
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Like some people might think I'm going overboard,
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but I give, I mentioned the trees. If we have
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like, let's say, bison or wild boar running through
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it, it all helps. But also at the same time,
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I'd like to... paint a whole picture of what's
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happening. Like we were saying before, it's like
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creating a story and that makes a consumer also
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connect maybe with that coffee more and be like,
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this is a specific thing I've had, which maybe
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not everyone has had. Yep, I agree. I agree with
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that. Yeah. I wanted to actually... Like something
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you articulated as your ambition was taking Indian
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speciality coffee global. And there were two
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things I wanted to ask you, actually. One, everything
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about, you know, brand Keraklu feels very intentional.
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You know, whether it's a post or a story or,
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you know, the way it shows on packaging or it's
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the collaborations that you're doing. And I know
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you do it largely alone. So one, like. Can you
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just shed some light on that in terms of how
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you think about it or, you know, where you want
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it to go? And two, about this ambition of like
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taking Indian speciality global. Obviously, you
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have to work with different partners as well
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to make it happen. And where do you see we are
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right now in India in that front? Also, just
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adding on to what Ko is saying, like. I didn't
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know this, but India is like I think the fourth
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largest coffee exporter in the world. But like
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when it comes to these things like speciality
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coffee and all, we are not maybe where we could
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be. So just that thought process as well. Yeah.
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On the storytelling side, it's sort of I realized
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really early that there's no one doing this.
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There's no one doing this. And it kind of bothered
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me that you. so many people drink coffee it's
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part of their daily routines wherever they are
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in the world but they don't know what a farm
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looks like they don't know what farm life is
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like they don't know the people who are behind
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their cups of coffees and um i was like no i
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gotta change that in small ways and um back then
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i think 2018 i started the instagram account
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it was quite literally i i still describe it
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as um there's so many things happening and I'm
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just the cameraman. I'll always just say that
00:14:34.129 --> 00:14:36.669
these things are happening long before me and
00:14:36.669 --> 00:14:39.610
will happen long after me. And I find it interesting
00:14:39.610 --> 00:14:41.750
and I'm grateful for a lot of people finding
00:14:41.750 --> 00:14:43.990
it interesting over the last how many ever years.
00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:48.029
But that, I think, opened new doors to people
00:14:48.029 --> 00:14:51.330
sitting in Delhi or Bombay where they're like,
00:14:51.509 --> 00:14:54.250
oh, damn, this is the coffee I'm drinking now
00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:57.149
and this is what it was six months ago on the
00:14:57.149 --> 00:15:01.649
bush. And so, yeah, that... Gave me a lot of
00:15:01.649 --> 00:15:05.509
confidence because I feel like we were just starting
00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:07.889
off on this movement in India and the timing
00:15:07.889 --> 00:15:10.490
could not have been better. But in saying that,
00:15:10.590 --> 00:15:16.129
I have to, when I look back at it now, I still
00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:18.289
get questions from a lot of friends about like
00:15:18.289 --> 00:15:23.570
tasting notes or the roasting process. And sometimes
00:15:23.570 --> 00:15:27.389
they're like very basic questions. And I really
00:15:27.389 --> 00:15:30.720
like it could be like, hey. it says hazelnut
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:32.879
and chocolate on my bag did you add that flavor
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.519
or is that and it's it's a fair question i always
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.679
tell people just ask if you don't know it's better
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.220
but i feel like that's an issue in the industry
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:43.200
and that's our fault that we haven't educated
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:47.299
enough we if we are at this stage where everything
00:15:47.299 --> 00:15:50.019
is fancy and you're paying 300 plus rupees for
00:15:50.019 --> 00:15:53.039
a coffee we should have educated people a lot
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:56.659
more and made it less intimidating but hopefully
00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:58.799
it's not too late and we can still do a lot more
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.179
of that and but that really helped me being like
00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:04.559
give people free education where you log in and
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:07.159
are flicking through stories but you didn't know
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:09.659
that hey i might learn something today that's
00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:12.799
not too in your face but like kind of tastefully
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.120
put across with good visuals good sound and that's
00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.950
it and um Yeah, coming to the other part of your
00:16:19.950 --> 00:16:22.470
question about India and where it stands, it's
00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:24.970
interesting. I think about that a lot because
00:16:24.970 --> 00:16:28.610
of travel and going to conventions and expos
00:16:28.610 --> 00:16:31.549
and things like that where you try coffees from
00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:34.750
around the world. And I do have to admit there's
00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:37.190
a lot of countries that are way better than us
00:16:37.190 --> 00:16:41.370
in terms of consistency. But I have to say that
00:16:41.370 --> 00:16:45.330
there's some coffees that I've tasted, some that
00:16:45.330 --> 00:16:47.960
I've produced, some that I... I've traced it
00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:50.639
from my friends' farms or friends' estates, which
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.019
could be up there. And it's just about scaling
00:16:54.019 --> 00:16:59.039
up what we do and having more. It's like I always
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.860
think of, there's two case studies that I take
00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:05.000
when I look at an agricultural product. One is
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.920
Colombian coffee and the other one is Sri Lankan
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.579
tea. I think it's really well marketed and the
00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:12.960
brands speak for themselves and they're synonymous.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.180
that the places are synonymous with their product
00:17:16.180 --> 00:17:20.099
and so we are nowhere near where it's every man
00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:21.880
and woman for themselves and you're trying to
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.019
find a market but yeah we're not i i would say
00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:27.539
i always describe us as being on the cusp but
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:31.039
like we have to play our cards right to make
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.779
sure that yeah we break in yeah i think also
00:17:34.779 --> 00:17:38.119
just you know when you mentioned uh it's our
00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.640
job to educate like people are spending the 250
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:43.819
350 rupees and they should know um a lot of coffee
00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:46.140
shops and therefore like outward facing brands
00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:48.579
take the onus um whether it's their instagram
00:17:48.579 --> 00:17:50.720
whether it's you know actually experientially
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:54.940
do you think being a younger person in for the
00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.099
role that you play because you're not an outward
00:17:57.099 --> 00:18:00.640
facing coffee brand you know you're so how has
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.279
that been an advantage for you obviously on one,
00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.099
educating the end consumer, but two, also changing
00:18:07.099 --> 00:18:11.299
processes within Kereha Blue. You know, I was
00:18:11.299 --> 00:18:13.579
hearing your podcast and you spoke about the
00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:16.539
rainfall data that you have over the years. And
00:18:16.539 --> 00:18:18.660
now if you're someone who, you know, understands
00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:21.460
tech and you can just like get all of that info
00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:24.359
synthesized, it will be so beneficial. So I'm
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:26.779
sure there's a lot of changes that you've also
00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:29.460
incorporated. So how has that been, you know,
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:33.250
from both sides, positive and negative? I would
00:18:33.250 --> 00:18:35.430
say at the start, a lot more negative than positive,
00:18:35.529 --> 00:18:38.569
where a lot of my peers and colleagues were my
00:18:38.569 --> 00:18:42.289
dad's age. And I've even got like, a lot of them
00:18:42.289 --> 00:18:44.349
obviously were supportive and still are. But
00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:48.329
I know a lot of them also, maybe not the close
00:18:48.329 --> 00:18:50.170
friends, just like acquaintances that I would
00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.710
meet would be like, one person actually said
00:18:52.710 --> 00:18:56.150
to me once, let's see how long you last. And
00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:58.789
it was almost like a challenge. And I was like.
00:18:59.259 --> 00:19:01.599
I'm up for it you know and this is what I want
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.059
to do and it's a it was a very old school you
00:19:05.059 --> 00:19:09.920
have to be 45 plus to be doing this but I didn't
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:11.420
agree with that and I still don't agree with
00:19:11.420 --> 00:19:14.319
that and so that was one of the many negatives
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.240
and you just start to always question yourself
00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:20.220
because I grew up in Bangalore I used to spend
00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:22.160
a lot of time on the estate as a kid but like
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.220
not more than two months at a stretch and so
00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:29.410
yeah tough but like you In the end, I realized
00:19:29.410 --> 00:19:31.369
that this is what I want to do and this is where
00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:36.309
my priorities are. But there's a lot of positives
00:19:36.309 --> 00:19:40.950
as well, where I feel like you just need the
00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.569
lens of a you need to know what's out there.
00:19:43.710 --> 00:19:46.890
And once you do, whether it's like I always take
00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:50.190
inspiration from like beer brands and natural
00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:52.549
wine brands with how they storytell. And it's
00:19:52.549 --> 00:19:55.289
fun. You know, it's it doesn't have to be boring.
00:19:55.369 --> 00:19:57.150
It doesn't have to be serious. It doesn't have
00:19:57.150 --> 00:20:00.529
to be. also too technical yeah you can have a
00:20:00.529 --> 00:20:03.789
bit of everything but also just be like hey i
00:20:03.789 --> 00:20:05.710
enjoyed that hey i enjoyed looking at that and
00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:08.990
i enjoyed tasting that and so if you can nail
00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:12.650
that you're sort of opening doors to a wider
00:20:12.650 --> 00:20:15.609
audience and not limiting it to like let's say
00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:18.230
coffee snobs for example where again it's your
00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:21.170
loss if you're if you're gonna be like limited
00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:24.630
to a few or a small part of the population but
00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:29.019
um yeah i think um It's been good in that sense.
00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:32.940
Yeah. Yeah. Like just adding on to this few things
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:35.220
that you said, like the way you approached your
00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:37.579
storytelling on your Instagram page, for example,
00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:39.960
like just seeing videos of the leopards that
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.740
have been on your estate has been so cool. I've
00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:44.940
been someone who likes coffee, but really never
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:47.940
got into it. until like i think i met you guys
00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:51.200
so just like even understanding like how in wine
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.440
there are notes that there are notes in coffee
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.660
i had no idea like you could taste like okay
00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:00.640
a mango flavor or a raspberry flavor it was unfathomable
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.460
to me so when like you put that stuff out on
00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:06.799
your instagram or like while you're talking or
00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:08.940
like you're speaking to different coffee places
00:21:08.940 --> 00:21:11.319
or even us for example it's really like interesting
00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.460
and makes me want to connect with your brand
00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:17.500
more consume your coffee more and maybe in the
00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:19.599
overall scheme of things that's how you'll help
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:23.259
take it global as well so i just wanted to bring
00:21:23.259 --> 00:21:26.019
that point up and also when you spoke earlier
00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:29.519
about like biodiversity of the land and how it
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:32.140
all comes together so seeing like the different
00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:34.880
fungi that are there seeing the different animal
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.400
like you said the bison the leopards so like
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.480
all of these things have an impact on the actual
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:47.450
taste of the coffee yeah Yeah, it does. So let's
00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:52.190
take away coffee because coffee is roasted and
00:21:52.190 --> 00:21:55.250
brewed and all these things. Let's think of it
00:21:55.250 --> 00:21:58.470
as an orange, okay? If you grow an orange, let's
00:21:58.470 --> 00:22:02.990
say, in an hour from here in Lunavala somewhere,
00:22:03.170 --> 00:22:05.730
the orange in Lunavala is going to taste and
00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.410
be very different. The same plant, same seed,
00:22:08.450 --> 00:22:11.640
everything are very different from... the same
00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.299
orange that grows in Chikmagalur. And that's
00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:17.960
because of the altitude, the rainfall, the makeup
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:21.039
of the soil. And within the soil, there's like
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:25.039
crazy stuff. We're still all deciphering, which
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.880
is what you touched upon, like fungi. And that's
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.619
just the mycorrhizal networks, which basically,
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:36.640
to put it quite simply, there's trees and roots,
00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:39.980
which are obviously past messages. What connects
00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:44.400
the roots is the fungi. And so that was something
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.299
that blew my mind a few years ago. And I was
00:22:46.299 --> 00:22:49.720
like, wow, we're sitting on a gold mine in an
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:56.460
ecological sense where it's amazing, fresh and
00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:59.220
nutritious soil, which then we're growing something
00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:04.870
from. And then, for example, up until... August
00:23:04.870 --> 00:23:08.049
2016, we actually used chemicals in our soil.
00:23:08.190 --> 00:23:10.529
And then that's when we changed and we decided
00:23:10.529 --> 00:23:12.970
that we're no longer going to do this. And so
00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:15.710
even that would affect the taste and how the
00:23:15.710 --> 00:23:19.730
plant ends up being. And so, yeah, that's what
00:23:19.730 --> 00:23:23.789
people touch upon or mean when they say terroir
00:23:23.789 --> 00:23:27.349
in wine or coffee. And so it's the same concept
00:23:27.349 --> 00:23:30.549
over here. But I'd say coffee is a bit more complicated
00:23:30.549 --> 00:23:32.750
because wine, you're just squeezing grapes in
00:23:32.750 --> 00:23:35.529
a sense. That's what you're fermenting and bottling
00:23:35.529 --> 00:23:37.369
here. You have to roast something and grind it
00:23:37.369 --> 00:23:39.809
and use hot water and all these crazy steps,
00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:42.529
which everyone makes a bit more complicated.
00:23:43.509 --> 00:23:48.069
But yeah, it's all connected. And so I think
00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:50.809
that's what I've been personally looking into
00:23:50.809 --> 00:23:56.990
is we use this phrase on bags of coffee to hopefully
00:23:56.990 --> 00:24:00.420
add a bit more value and it's shade grown. We
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:02.859
only think of it as the canopy, but also with
00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:06.480
that canopy and there could be like fig trees,
00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:09.660
which you touched upon. And those figs basically
00:24:09.660 --> 00:24:12.079
add value to the soil and add nutrition to the
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.660
soil. And so it's crazy. I think we're still
00:24:14.660 --> 00:24:18.579
yet to fully figure it out, but it's all connected.
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:21.680
And also just talking from an ecological perspective,
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.480
you brought it up a little bit in the start.
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:25.779
Just want to shout out, you have the biggest
00:24:25.779 --> 00:24:28.640
avocados I've ever seen, I've ever eaten. They're
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:31.200
huge, they're like footballs. But you had mentioned
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.099
that not many coffee farmer plots or estates
00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:36.079
do that, where they do intercropping, where they
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:39.500
plant peppercorns or avocados. So was that something
00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:41.700
that you intentionally started or that was something
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:44.559
that was already there in the ethos of the estate?
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.799
So I would say others do intercrop with pepper.
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:51.619
Pepper is a big one, which most estates have
00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:55.819
around India. alongside coffee but the kind of
00:24:55.819 --> 00:24:59.539
trees pepper grows as vines along barks of trees
00:24:59.539 --> 00:25:02.380
but the kind of trees are very different for
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.559
us we use mainly indigenous actually it's my
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.140
dad and my granddad's decisions over many decades
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.680
indigenous or native trees as opposed to like
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:17.369
introduced species which can be detrimental to
00:25:17.369 --> 00:25:20.490
the soil and all of these things. But for example,
00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:23.450
there's one called silver oak, which is the most
00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:26.529
widely grown tree out there in South India. And
00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:30.930
it's grown because it grows straight and fast.
00:25:31.109 --> 00:25:34.809
And so you're able to grow vines on them. But
00:25:34.809 --> 00:25:39.769
my dad noticed 30 something years ago that because
00:25:39.769 --> 00:25:42.230
they're so straight and quite thin, they actually
00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:44.809
sway a lot in the wind. And so he noticed that
00:25:44.809 --> 00:25:48.079
there's no, birds making nests in there and know
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.240
like squirrels and other small mammals and you
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.640
realize that hey this is not so beneficial for
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.579
the soil and same thing you know so more birds
00:25:55.579 --> 00:25:59.460
means more life and pollinators and dispersal
00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.000
of seeds and all of these things and so it's
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.119
quite a jungle we live in to be honest people
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.099
like sometimes people find it a bit scary to
00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:09.539
walk around on their own at Kerihaklu and I can't
00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:12.680
blame them because there's times where I am not
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.359
sure what's around the corner but I think that's
00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:19.019
the beauty of it also yeah and i think like shifting
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.180
gears a bit like so the interconnectedness of
00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:26.400
Connecting that to the interconnectedness of
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.839
the world and with climate change and specifically
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.680
Western Ghats, monsoons being a bit erratic and
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.299
temperatures being warmer. How have you really
00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:40.559
seen over the past few years the effect that
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:43.259
it's actually had and how does it also impact
00:26:43.259 --> 00:26:46.000
the process and then the final produce of it?
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.099
And where do you think it's also going from here
00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:55.299
on? Yeah, it's... the future is a bit grim not
00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:59.519
gonna lie and you i find that not many people
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:01.539
like speaking about it because maybe you're scared
00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:05.599
of big decisions in in the industry but i can
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.900
tell you that at the the grassroots the ground
00:27:08.900 --> 00:27:11.559
level it's not looking good and we do what we
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:13.319
can but at the end of the day it's this huge
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:17.980
phenomenon that's way bigger than us and um but
00:27:17.980 --> 00:27:23.279
uh yeah in this You don't have to go back too
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.839
far. In six, seven years, I've noticed the monsoon
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:32.740
is super erratic. We'll have crazy rains come
00:27:32.740 --> 00:27:35.440
down for a few days and then random bits of sun,
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.660
which actually is not so good for the soil and
00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:41.559
not so good for also the coffee and the growth
00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.220
of the coffee bean, for example. that wasn't
00:27:45.220 --> 00:27:47.140
the case before you'd have like a consistent
00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:49.680
two three month two and a half month monsoon
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.140
where it would rain every day but like not poor
00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:55.920
you know and that's very different and that's
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.359
just because of increase in surface temperatures
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:02.079
and things like that but and so to counter that
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.059
we do what we can during the harvest season and
00:28:05.059 --> 00:28:07.480
that's just protective drying which we have like
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.200
pretty much greenhouses to dry our coffee and
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.660
make sure it's sort of again quality focused
00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:17.039
but you can't protect the plants that are out
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.940
there apart from the shade and the trees that
00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:23.880
we grow so that we've had to tweak but a part
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:28.240
of me has resorted to the fact that we won't
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.140
have the numbers that maybe my granddad did for
00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:33.839
example and that definitely is the case where
00:28:35.769 --> 00:28:38.349
soil quality is kind of dropping and so at the
00:28:38.349 --> 00:28:43.430
same time um we're not we can't get the amount
00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:46.210
of coffee that we once did but that's where we
00:28:46.210 --> 00:28:48.369
add the value that's where we ferment it and
00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:51.049
things like that so whether it's like a nano
00:28:51.049 --> 00:28:54.490
lot or a micro lot that's how you sort of position
00:28:54.490 --> 00:28:57.769
it in different ways and met a lot of people
00:28:57.769 --> 00:29:02.329
and roasters along the way who actually sort
00:29:02.329 --> 00:29:05.950
of share a vision with you how you look at coffee
00:29:05.950 --> 00:29:09.730
and agriculture and life and so they get it it's
00:29:09.730 --> 00:29:12.349
about that building that trust and being like
00:29:12.349 --> 00:29:16.170
hey I'm doing this and it may be not so good
00:29:16.170 --> 00:29:19.099
this year but I feel like It's protecting us
00:29:19.099 --> 00:29:21.420
against the climate for the next five years.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.099
And so a lot of them are open minded to being
00:29:24.099 --> 00:29:26.980
like, OK, let's let's take this on. Yeah. And
00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:29.380
just relating to this, we spoke a little bit
00:29:29.380 --> 00:29:33.299
about the waves of coffee and how right now speciality
00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:35.680
is the third wave. What I read, I might be wrong,
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.960
was the fifth is sustainable coffee. But how
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.759
does this relate to creating sustainable coffee
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:45.609
when? your climatic conditions are so erratic.
00:29:45.769 --> 00:29:48.609
And I'm assuming the cost of then creating a
00:29:48.609 --> 00:29:52.490
sustainable cup of coffee at the end would be
00:29:52.490 --> 00:29:55.390
a lot higher. That's one. And then two, there's
00:29:55.390 --> 00:29:57.990
like a lot of chatter on transparency, ethical
00:29:57.990 --> 00:30:00.569
ways of doing it. I remember when I was in university,
00:30:00.730 --> 00:30:02.930
everything was about fair trade. And then it
00:30:02.930 --> 00:30:04.609
came out like, you know, what really is fair
00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:07.970
trade? So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah,
00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:11.910
I think we don't have the issue in coffee is
00:30:11.910 --> 00:30:16.400
that Like even an organic certification, it's
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:21.720
something that is not so valuable in the sense
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.339
that you won't. There's a lot of people who don't
00:30:25.339 --> 00:30:27.500
care for it as simple as that, where they're
00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:30.359
like, hey, I just want a good cup. And if it's
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.039
meeting these prerequisites of you didn't use
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.880
this, this and this in the soil, it's OK that
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.400
it's not organic and whatever. That's just an
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.390
example of it. But. Yeah, I think we need to
00:30:42.390 --> 00:30:46.430
tread lightly. But at the same time, we need
00:30:46.430 --> 00:30:49.069
to look at alternatives to coffee. And it's crazy
00:30:49.069 --> 00:30:52.430
to say that because that's what my family has
00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:56.750
known for so long. But I'd like to be open -minded
00:30:56.750 --> 00:31:01.849
to anything. And I always find that if you are
00:31:01.849 --> 00:31:04.529
a bit, in an agricultural sense, a bit naive
00:31:04.529 --> 00:31:07.809
about what is happening or what might happen,
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.299
we shoot ourselves in the foot. And so, yeah,
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:16.220
I think we still have to keep doing what we're
00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:21.240
doing, but I'd say in India, away from the fair
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:24.400
trade and from all of these things, I think it's
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:27.980
more about getting together and showing people
00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:30.700
around the world that we are good at what we
00:31:30.700 --> 00:31:34.069
do. It's as simple as that. It's not... i do
00:31:34.069 --> 00:31:37.410
i go here and i gain a small advantage in the
00:31:37.410 --> 00:31:40.450
market there and it helps but it's all short
00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:44.250
-term wins and small wins as opposed to a whole
00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:47.289
industry going as a collector yeah just getting
00:31:47.289 --> 00:31:50.210
also getting boosted and the recognition that
00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:55.670
i think we probably deserve and so um but yeah
00:31:55.670 --> 00:31:57.809
it's it's not as easy as that there's a lot of
00:31:57.809 --> 00:32:01.190
different reasons for that but um i think yeah
00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:05.480
we need to come together and why I think India
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:09.119
is the topic, a hot topic now around the world
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.319
in terms of coffee. But again, you can mess up
00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.559
your reputation really quickly. And so we have
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:18.079
to be careful with what we do next. Yeah. And
00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:20.240
another thing I found really interesting, what
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:23.880
you'd mentioned was on naming and sort of the
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.579
opportunity loss we've had now for not having
00:32:26.579 --> 00:32:30.019
our own name. Yeah. But you had a few ideas on
00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:33.329
that. This was maybe two, three years ago. Have
00:32:33.329 --> 00:32:35.789
you changed your opinion? At that time, your
00:32:35.789 --> 00:32:39.589
stance was, I'm too small right now to name mine
00:32:39.589 --> 00:32:41.630
and people don't understand it. And we've just
00:32:41.630 --> 00:32:46.109
taken the lab name for it. And that would help
00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:49.789
put us on the map for sure. So what are your
00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:51.970
thoughts on it? Yeah, I think maybe my thoughts
00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:56.210
have evolved where fundamentally, I still find
00:32:56.210 --> 00:32:59.429
it a missed opportunity that we just named. For
00:32:59.429 --> 00:33:02.289
example, it's Selection 9 and Selection 5B, which
00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:06.470
are just the lab names which we used and didn't
00:33:06.470 --> 00:33:10.309
change or adapt. And why I say that is that because
00:33:10.309 --> 00:33:12.569
if you give it a name, like it could be a person's
00:33:12.569 --> 00:33:13.990
name, it could be the name of the place it's
00:33:13.990 --> 00:33:16.670
from, it makes it marketable. It just makes it
00:33:16.670 --> 00:33:18.930
something that sounds cool. Sticks, yeah. Yeah,
00:33:18.950 --> 00:33:23.289
you remember it, exactly. But I think this year,
00:33:23.349 --> 00:33:27.119
for example, we did my dad during... I think
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.099
the first wave of COVID did this graft because
00:33:30.099 --> 00:33:32.200
we were just stuck at home for a long time. And
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.980
we have our own variety of coffee. And I put
00:33:35.980 --> 00:33:38.220
up an Instagram story like a year ago saying,
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.460
does anyone have any suggestions for this name?
00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:44.500
And someone said, Kere Bika. And so that's what
00:33:44.500 --> 00:33:47.700
we're using now for this small amount of coffee.
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.880
And something that, again, like you said, will
00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:55.069
hopefully stick in someone's mind. also make
00:33:55.069 --> 00:33:57.450
it unique to us, which I think that uniqueness
00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:03.869
and what exclusivity is what is is what sells
00:34:03.869 --> 00:34:07.089
at the moment. And so, yeah, I think we can.
00:34:07.210 --> 00:34:09.969
I think I am doing a bit more, but yeah, on the
00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:12.829
whole, we can also be doing a lot more. Yeah,
00:34:12.889 --> 00:34:15.630
I think at Kerry, you're doing amazing collaborations
00:34:15.630 --> 00:34:19.110
and smaller products and a beer. So can you tell
00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:21.469
us a little bit more about. Yeah, those are just
00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:25.000
fun to be honest. Those are just like. I love
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.900
working with creative people and I love to be
00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:32.599
able to see what happens with, I don't know,
00:34:32.619 --> 00:34:35.119
what could otherwise be a byproduct that we just
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.300
chuck in the compost. Even avo in a jar. Yeah.
00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:40.420
That was really cool. That was cool. That was
00:34:40.420 --> 00:34:42.699
cool. Because like avocado and coffee, that's
00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:44.860
all you go for to a coffee shop. Agreed. Yeah.
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.960
Agreed. And something like, like that was basically,
00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:53.800
we had like any avocado you buy, it's, in two
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:56.579
days it's like it's destroyed you know and so
00:34:56.579 --> 00:35:00.840
um i i figured that i need to do something which
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.639
is increasing the shelf life which i don't think
00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.280
anyone in india had done before and so through
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:09.639
a lot of r d and experiments um with my friend
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:12.739
shreya we were able to pull off this product
00:35:12.739 --> 00:35:15.820
this jar this guacamole jar which is fermented
00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:19.079
and has a three week shelf life, which was kind
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.659
of wild to me as well. And of course it came
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:23.960
with certain teething issues with storage and
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:27.320
refrigeration, but it's, I just want to see how
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.440
far we can go. But it was a cool concept and
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:31.559
at least you were experimenting with that whole
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:34.699
aspect, taking the thing that's grown on your
00:35:34.699 --> 00:35:37.760
farm and trying to keep it in your, in the consumer's
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.239
home for a longer period of time or as a finished
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:42.800
product even. Yeah. So that was really cool.
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:47.510
Yeah. And also just make it like, make someone
00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:50.010
want to want that yeah you know where it's like
00:35:50.010 --> 00:35:53.349
hey i feel like i'll make 10 minutes more for
00:35:53.349 --> 00:35:55.449
my breakfast and i'll just get sourdough and
00:35:55.449 --> 00:35:57.610
now my breakfast is sauteed if i make this and
00:35:57.610 --> 00:36:02.010
so um yeah that that's been fun and but a lot
00:36:02.010 --> 00:36:03.769
of the other like the beers and things like that
00:36:03.769 --> 00:36:07.050
is just to see what can be done but also just
00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:12.519
to have my own beer Yeah, that's something you've
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.400
spoken about as well that I, of course, have
00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.500
my own interests too. And I also do things beyond
00:36:18.500 --> 00:36:22.219
Carey. So tell us a little bit about your role
00:36:22.219 --> 00:36:24.579
as a consultant when you're working with music
00:36:24.579 --> 00:36:27.239
festivals and also beyond. Yeah, that was really
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:30.099
cool. I think last year we heard that you had
00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:31.780
gone. I think you've been doing it for a while
00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:35.639
now. But like checking the sustainability reports.
00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:37.559
I think that's something you're doing, right?
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:41.719
Actually, I put a pause on. festivals for a bit
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:46.559
but for three years or four years I worked with
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.760
festivals in India as a sustainability advisor
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:54.659
and I was just or an auditor and so I studied
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:57.199
it at uni I did an environmental impact association
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.980
like this big couple of courses and also environmental
00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:07.260
impact assessment and it I just realized attending
00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:10.900
i love going for gigs and festivals and i realized
00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:14.719
that there was no governing body making rules
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:18.699
for from a sustainability yeah like there's waste
00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:22.659
um management for sure but so many other things
00:37:22.659 --> 00:37:24.760
like sound and traffic and all of these things
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:26.519
and there's no one putting together these stats
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:30.659
and um yeah and i realized that i i was and i
00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:34.219
am i'm capable of doing this and quantifying
00:37:34.219 --> 00:37:37.769
these numbers and issues and so that was fun
00:37:37.769 --> 00:37:40.449
that was really fun to do and just see how a
00:37:40.449 --> 00:37:43.690
festival comes together from behind the scenes
00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:48.030
and um but since then i've taken a more coffee
00:37:48.030 --> 00:37:51.690
driven consultant approach and i feel like because
00:37:51.690 --> 00:37:54.570
over there as well there's a lot of people who
00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:58.590
need and would like help and i use it as a really
00:37:58.590 --> 00:38:01.469
way a really nice way to travel and see different
00:38:01.469 --> 00:38:04.670
parts of the world where I work for like a week
00:38:04.670 --> 00:38:06.670
and then I take a week off just to travel and
00:38:06.670 --> 00:38:10.570
chill. But yeah, it's again, it goes back to
00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:14.650
fundamentally in the coffee industry, not enough
00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:18.050
education in it. And so I'm happy to share and
00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:21.650
share my expertise and my experiences. But yeah,
00:38:22.349 --> 00:38:26.190
not everyone is willing to hear it or even share
00:38:26.190 --> 00:38:30.849
it. And so I think that was a really good, really.
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:35.179
big step for me which i'm enjoying yeah and also
00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:37.280
i think globally you have the barista championships
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:40.380
and awards and um i'm not sure if his name is
00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:44.019
will hoffman but like the the winner of the championship
00:38:44.019 --> 00:38:47.960
james james hoffman sorry um and i like bringing
00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:51.860
that culture here like because It is still nascent,
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.440
but there's enough, I guess, recognition, preference
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:58.380
for it. Do you think as a community, there are
00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:00.440
courses that are happening. I just saw Delhi
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.019
Art Week. There's like a sub course doing a brewing
00:39:04.019 --> 00:39:06.039
course. So there's like little, little pockets
00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:08.980
happening. Do you see that increasing? Like I've
00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:11.119
seen a lot of coffee cacao festivals happen,
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.519
for example, and there's great attendance there.
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:17.960
Do you see things, more things like that sort
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:21.199
of coming up? Yeah, I think. I think it is, and
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.840
a lot of courses and brewing championships and
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.820
stuff help because you want to get better, you
00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:29.699
do more research, you practice more at home.
00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:33.780
I think another angle that I think would really
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:38.219
help is just making it fun. I think keep the
00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:41.940
intimidating, oh, 92 degrees and this grind size.
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:45.159
I'm guilty of it. I do that, and I'm very specific
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:47.119
about it, but I realize there's so many people,
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:51.400
like my friends who... Like coffee, but it intimidates
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:53.139
them to be like... To get into the whole process.
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:55.940
Yeah. And why do you want to do that, you know?
00:39:55.980 --> 00:39:58.360
It's kind of like you're losing someone and they'd
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:00.539
be like, hey, I'd rather buy this or I'd rather
00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:05.380
get an easier instant coffee to make. Then you
00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:07.780
invest in that process. Yeah, exactly. And so
00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:11.239
I just launched something on the side which is
00:40:11.239 --> 00:40:14.780
called Ruckus and it's just a bit of chaos because
00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:18.699
I realized that I wanted to... make it fun and
00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:20.780
add a bit of personality to the storytelling
00:40:20.780 --> 00:40:23.559
through art and sound and things like that which
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:27.360
otherwise maybe gone a bit sterile it was the
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.099
branding for me has just gotten a bit stagnant
00:40:31.099 --> 00:40:35.099
you know and so yeah and just i i'd rather have
00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:38.300
like for example recently i called the coffee
00:40:38.300 --> 00:40:41.840
a bad texture but and i find that a lot more
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:45.820
funny than or a lot more approachable than 96
00:40:45.820 --> 00:40:49.039
hour anoxic fermentation for you know like who
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:51.860
cares i care but i i don't think anyone else
00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:55.619
does and so you got to make it fun got to make
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:58.440
it appealing got to make it something again that's
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.239
something that someone wants but um yeah i think
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:05.360
it's it's slowly happening Also, I had a random
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.179
question, but talking about like education from
00:41:08.179 --> 00:41:10.739
a coffee perspective, I didn't know that coffee
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:13.820
beans could be aged. So do you think like I wanted
00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:15.699
to understand that aspect? How does it change
00:41:15.699 --> 00:41:17.840
flavor? And also, do you think maybe it would
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.400
reach the relevance of like an aged wine or aged
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:25.239
whiskey? Yeah, it's so one thing that we're ending
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:28.349
coffee around the world is synonymous for. Synonymous
00:41:28.349 --> 00:41:31.590
with is monsoon Malabar. And basically what that
00:41:31.590 --> 00:41:35.449
is, it's the aging of coffee on the course where
00:41:35.449 --> 00:41:39.550
the winds and the weather is quite damp. And
00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:44.550
that's basically aging with exposure to moisture.
00:41:44.570 --> 00:41:46.809
And that actually causes the beans to swell up
00:41:46.809 --> 00:41:50.309
and turn white. You can also do aging within
00:41:50.309 --> 00:41:54.389
a barrel, like a rum barrel or wine barrel, any
00:41:54.389 --> 00:41:57.900
casks basically, which... You're actually looking
00:41:57.900 --> 00:42:01.239
for the beans in that form to actually absorb
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:03.679
the residue that's been left on the inside of
00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:06.820
the barrels. So it's possible we're doing that
00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:09.440
with cacao, we're doing that with even certain
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.860
grains, which you sort of make beers from now,
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.719
coffee beans. And yeah, there are things like
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:20.300
I work with a roaster called Passenger in Pennsylvania.
00:42:21.369 --> 00:42:23.730
They do aging, but it's a different way. They
00:42:23.730 --> 00:42:26.130
actually vacuum pack coffee and put it away in
00:42:26.130 --> 00:42:30.269
the freezer. And so Evan, who's the green buyer
00:42:30.269 --> 00:42:32.309
over there, he messaged me the other week and
00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:35.090
he was like, we pulled your coffee out from two
00:42:35.090 --> 00:42:38.630
years ago from the freezer. And so that's next
00:42:38.630 --> 00:42:42.030
level stuff not happening in India as yet. And
00:42:42.030 --> 00:42:44.849
it's cool because in my head, I've forgotten
00:42:44.849 --> 00:42:47.110
what this coffee tastes like. So if you get it
00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:49.250
out now and roast it, I'm like, OK, cool, I can.
00:42:49.869 --> 00:42:52.829
Compare it to modern day Kere Haklu coffees.
00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:55.429
And so those kind of things are happening. And
00:42:55.429 --> 00:42:59.610
I think more of it will happen. But yeah, step
00:42:59.610 --> 00:43:02.730
by step, I think. That's really cool. I genuinely
00:43:02.730 --> 00:43:04.989
didn't know that something like that could exist.
00:43:05.289 --> 00:43:08.329
So that's cool. Also, another random question.
00:43:08.389 --> 00:43:11.590
I saw one interview you did and you were talking
00:43:11.590 --> 00:43:14.780
about like having your. people who love coffee
00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:17.219
have black cups of coffee that's something I
00:43:17.219 --> 00:43:21.679
I just it just does not suit my body and I I
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.119
don't know I have a mental block but I was hearing
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:26.699
you talk and how to understand the notes and
00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:28.440
all you can only do when it's a black cup of
00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:30.679
coffee so I was talking to Cole so she has seen
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:32.699
me go a little crazy when I've had the first
00:43:32.699 --> 00:43:35.460
cup but you spoke about how it's not about the
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:37.800
coffee it's more about like what's in your like
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.820
what's in your mind like unless you've reached
00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:43.239
a certain level of Cups of coffee you've had,
00:43:43.340 --> 00:43:46.079
that effect shouldn't happen to you or your body.
00:43:46.300 --> 00:43:49.639
Do you think that's true? So it really depends.
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:54.659
One is, I would say coffee and caffeine doesn't
00:43:54.659 --> 00:43:56.599
agree with everyone. I think we hate to admit
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.420
that in coffee. And we just are like oblivious
00:43:59.420 --> 00:44:03.019
to that at times. But that's how I look at it,
00:44:03.059 --> 00:44:04.940
is that coffee doesn't agree with everyone. Some
00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:08.739
people could get an increased heart rate, could
00:44:08.739 --> 00:44:11.679
get dizzy, whatever it is. Fair enough. That's
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:13.940
just how it is. And again, it's got to do with
00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:17.960
your physiology and things like that. But like
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.840
something as simple as say you've been stressed
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.039
and lacking sleep and haven't had breakfast.
00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:25.159
That could also affect it. Yeah, for sure. Like
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:27.039
one day you wake up and you're really wired because
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:29.480
that's the first thing you've had and it could
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.139
put you off coffee for a while. Yeah, I became
00:44:32.139 --> 00:44:34.380
a matcha girl for a while. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:38.650
yeah. And so that fully happens and that... That's
00:44:38.650 --> 00:44:40.929
fully acceptable. I think that's what I think
00:44:40.929 --> 00:44:43.090
is like a misconception with coffee that if you
00:44:43.090 --> 00:44:46.070
do have a black coffee over like maybe a latte
00:44:46.070 --> 00:44:48.289
for example, like that black coffee will make
00:44:48.289 --> 00:44:51.170
you more maybe strung out. I think yeah, it's
00:44:51.170 --> 00:44:54.050
interesting as a myth because again once You
00:44:54.050 --> 00:44:56.610
were talking at Sapko first time and you spoke
00:44:56.610 --> 00:45:01.070
about the ritual of that. It's not my morning
00:45:01.070 --> 00:45:04.590
pick me up. Sure, it can be. But it's also my
00:45:04.590 --> 00:45:07.090
4 p .m. sit down. Like I'm reading a book and
00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:09.110
I'll have it. And I think that a lot of times
00:45:09.110 --> 00:45:12.070
there is dissonance. Because at work, you know,
00:45:12.190 --> 00:45:13.670
you'll be like, oh, I need like people are just
00:45:13.670 --> 00:45:15.909
having cups and cups to be stimulated. And they
00:45:15.909 --> 00:45:17.969
won't have after 7 p .m. because I need to sleep.
00:45:18.130 --> 00:45:21.690
But now I think there's a lot of like. You know,
00:45:21.730 --> 00:45:24.389
people are getting a bruise at home because they're
00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:26.710
enjoying the ritual of it. They're getting like
00:45:26.710 --> 00:45:28.710
there's a niche audience, but, you know, wants
00:45:28.710 --> 00:45:30.510
to sort of delve into it. And it's a beautiful
00:45:30.510 --> 00:45:33.690
ritual. So have you also seen a little bit of
00:45:33.690 --> 00:45:36.389
that changing in terms of, you know, conversations
00:45:36.389 --> 00:45:38.829
you're having with people in the community? Yeah,
00:45:38.989 --> 00:45:42.210
massively. I think COVID helped a lot. Like people
00:45:42.210 --> 00:45:45.530
who suddenly are stuck at home, maybe before
00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:47.329
you used to go to your office and just press
00:45:47.329 --> 00:45:49.050
a button on the machine and you're getting a
00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:51.969
coffee, which. is free you know and suddenly
00:45:51.969 --> 00:45:55.150
you're paying for it and you kind of want something
00:45:55.150 --> 00:45:58.269
better and you kind of want to improve you also
00:45:58.269 --> 00:46:00.690
have the time and so you're like hey okay i'm
00:46:00.690 --> 00:46:02.949
going to spend 10 minutes with an aeropress as
00:46:02.949 --> 00:46:06.469
opposed to hot water and instant coffee and um
00:46:06.469 --> 00:46:11.070
that's changed a lot i i'm really yeah i think
00:46:11.070 --> 00:46:13.650
a lot of the People that I speak with now have
00:46:13.650 --> 00:46:15.449
actually started buying grinders, which is a
00:46:15.449 --> 00:46:17.969
huge thing. And that adds a lot of quality and
00:46:17.969 --> 00:46:21.449
shelf life to your coffee, basically. And it's
00:46:21.449 --> 00:46:23.610
a huge step. Like, I get it. It's annoying to
00:46:23.610 --> 00:46:26.670
have to sort of grind coffee every single day.
00:46:26.750 --> 00:46:28.809
But once you put it in your mind that, hey, this
00:46:28.809 --> 00:46:31.630
is my routine, this is what I got to do. It's
00:46:31.630 --> 00:46:34.110
like, I don't know, it's like warming up before
00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:37.210
your workout. And that's exactly how long it
00:46:37.210 --> 00:46:39.409
takes. You know, it's like 10 minutes. You just
00:46:39.409 --> 00:46:43.449
have a way better cup of coffee. And so, yeah,
00:46:43.489 --> 00:46:45.329
it's about those priorities. But I think it's
00:46:45.329 --> 00:46:47.889
it is there's a lot of people who are into it
00:46:47.889 --> 00:46:51.809
now and it's growing. Just five more minutes.
00:46:51.829 --> 00:46:55.699
We're wrapping up. Yeah. I wanted to ask you,
00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:59.380
as a producer, and I'm an end consumer, how do
00:46:59.380 --> 00:47:01.699
you work with brands? So when I go to a Blue
00:47:01.699 --> 00:47:04.940
Tokai, I go to a Bougie, I go to any of these
00:47:04.940 --> 00:47:08.639
cafes, I see, I just, I just see the, that's
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:11.260
also if I'm attentive. Yeah, I'll see like the
00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:13.440
coffee packets and I'll see an estate maybe.
00:47:13.739 --> 00:47:16.079
But like, how does your behind the scenes relationship
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:20.090
work? Because you're... one to many right and
00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:22.650
and then sometimes they also make their own so
00:47:22.650 --> 00:47:25.269
how does that relationship work also have you
00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:27.190
seen like more consumers coming to you directly
00:47:27.190 --> 00:47:30.269
to get or like do you think still it's important
00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:33.369
to be placed in these cafes and like subco etc
00:47:33.369 --> 00:47:37.530
also just one more it's a dumb question but Do
00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:39.909
producers also like, so for example, Kereha Close,
00:47:39.969 --> 00:47:42.429
such a successful brand, would you ever open
00:47:42.429 --> 00:47:45.369
your own coffee shop? Yeah, that's also interesting.
00:47:45.949 --> 00:47:48.130
I think about it all the time. I think about
00:47:48.130 --> 00:47:50.409
it all the time. And actually yesterday I was
00:47:50.409 --> 00:47:53.070
talking to someone about this and I think I've
00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.070
learned the hard way not to do too many things
00:47:55.070 --> 00:47:58.610
and just stick to what you're good at and slowly
00:47:58.610 --> 00:48:02.130
expand. But coming to the topic of roasters,
00:48:02.190 --> 00:48:05.400
they're an essential part of... this value chain
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:09.400
in India and so although I am getting into roasting
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:13.940
and closer to the consumer it's like you mentioned
00:48:13.940 --> 00:48:17.179
all of these names that's where people are introduced
00:48:17.179 --> 00:48:20.159
to coffee that's where you go and even if say
00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:21.920
you're running late you get a cup of coffee in
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:27.239
Swiggy or whatever it might be and so it is a
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.860
balance of choosing the right roasters to work
00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:33.900
with and I'm grateful to be in a position where
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:37.320
I can actually be like, the ball is kind of in
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:39.519
our court, where I'm like, hey, and if it's,
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.440
I never say no to newbie roasters, because that
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.980
was us in the industry, six, seven years, we
00:48:45.980 --> 00:48:48.599
were brand new, you know, and so I always, but
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.500
I do a bit of vetting where it's like, hey, what
00:48:51.500 --> 00:48:53.400
are you roasting on? What are the other coffees
00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:55.039
you're sourcing? Send me a link to your website,
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:59.380
things like that, because the issue with coffee
00:48:59.380 --> 00:49:01.559
today is that if you go to a cafe and you have
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:04.530
a, I don't know, a coffee that's too hot or too
00:49:04.530 --> 00:49:07.889
bitter, you're like, ah, kerehaklu is crap. You're
00:49:07.889 --> 00:49:09.730
not thinking about the roaster, you're not thinking
00:49:09.730 --> 00:49:11.909
about the barista who might be tired or messed
00:49:11.909 --> 00:49:14.269
up. It's like, ah, this is really bad and it's
00:49:14.269 --> 00:49:18.070
from this estate, so kerehaklu equals bad. And
00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:20.949
so I have to be very careful about who gets the
00:49:20.949 --> 00:49:23.349
beans and what they're going to do with it and
00:49:23.349 --> 00:49:27.170
where it ends up. So, yeah, at the moment, I'd
00:49:27.170 --> 00:49:30.190
say most people are... like very very qualified
00:49:30.190 --> 00:49:32.989
and skilled to be able to first roast and then
00:49:32.989 --> 00:49:36.030
brew these coffees but then again packaging and
00:49:36.030 --> 00:49:38.769
so many things come into come into play because
00:49:38.769 --> 00:49:41.670
it's it's the whole shebang everything matters
00:49:41.670 --> 00:49:46.369
and so um yeah it's i think it's a again it's
00:49:46.369 --> 00:49:48.969
evolving and right now the coffee price is actually
00:49:48.969 --> 00:49:54.250
crazy high highest ever been um so it's we have
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:56.230
to sort of figure out how to take this forward
00:49:56.230 --> 00:49:59.079
but i think there's enough good people who are
00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:01.699
who are committed to this in the in the long
00:50:01.699 --> 00:50:05.019
run also just wrapping up i had few fast questions
00:50:05.019 --> 00:50:08.699
that i wanted to ask you fun types so if you
00:50:08.699 --> 00:50:11.079
could have coffee with any dish for the rest
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:13.559
of your life what would that dish be what would
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.340
you pair it with It's going to sound lame, but
00:50:16.340 --> 00:50:20.139
avocados and toast, I think it pairs the best.
00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:24.980
Just on brand. So there's so many on Instagram
00:50:24.980 --> 00:50:26.820
and social media, you see a lot of different
00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:29.280
weird ways people are making coffee and like,
00:50:29.300 --> 00:50:31.719
you know, different ways they're brewing it or
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:34.119
like the different trends that people are trying,
00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.019
putting a lot of ice cream or whatever. What
00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:37.760
is the weirdest thing you've seen people do with
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:41.619
coffee? It's not crazy weird, but like I've...
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:48.619
I've had coffee with either butter or ghee. I've
00:50:48.619 --> 00:50:50.119
seen many people do this. It's a keto thing.
00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:55.219
Bullet coffee. Yeah, exactly. But I found it
00:50:55.219 --> 00:50:59.059
weird to me because coffee and my coffee, I'm
00:50:59.059 --> 00:51:01.760
not looking for something to fill me up. It's
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:03.619
just something that I enjoy and I get on with
00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:06.579
my day. But having something as a meal replacement
00:51:06.579 --> 00:51:09.920
was really weird for me to fathom. There's some
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:11.460
weird stuff out there you can have with eggs
00:51:11.460 --> 00:51:15.019
and bananas. But that was a really, that's something
00:51:15.019 --> 00:51:17.139
that took me a while to get used to. What's the
00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:19.420
most unique note you have tasted in your coffee?
00:51:21.139 --> 00:51:26.019
I tasted in one of my washed coffees, my grandmother's
00:51:26.019 --> 00:51:30.059
gooseberry wine. And no one else will get that
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:33.460
because it's a personal experience and a memory
00:51:33.460 --> 00:51:37.639
from the past. I remembered because in your head,
00:51:37.659 --> 00:51:39.440
it actually kind of transports you to this time
00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:43.019
in your life. And that was wild. That is so cute.
00:51:43.900 --> 00:51:46.619
The last one, like we like putting things out
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:48.400
there. So like, what would be your dream collab?
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:55.199
There's a roaster in Brooklyn called Say, S -E
00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:58.579
-Y. I think that's the one that I'd like to work
00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:03.920
with. And yeah, I think that's the biggest one.
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:05.639
I've done a tasting over there a couple of years
00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:09.179
ago, but you have to be, you have to produce
00:52:09.179 --> 00:52:11.679
really, really good coffee to have it sort of
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:14.099
packaged and served there. So I think that would
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:18.400
be. From your mouth to God's ear. And I think
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.480
we always ask everyone because the podcast is
00:52:21.480 --> 00:52:24.639
called Work in Progress. So how are you a work
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:27.019
in progress and how is all the work that you're
00:52:27.019 --> 00:52:30.380
doing across Kerry personally? How is that a
00:52:30.380 --> 00:52:33.440
work in progress? It always is. I'm trying to
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:36.639
figure out this balance of being in the jungle
00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.599
and the city and friendships and relationships
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.619
and life and everything. And so I think it's
00:52:42.619 --> 00:52:45.119
constantly going back to the drawing board and
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:48.039
being like, hey, is this who I am? This is who
00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:52.219
I am. And then, yeah, now I think it's at least
00:52:52.219 --> 00:52:54.960
at work, it's streamlining what we're good at
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:58.000
and just doing it easier and faster. But then...
00:52:58.570 --> 00:53:01.489
there's always new challenges. So, yeah, it's
00:53:01.489 --> 00:53:05.889
a balance. Thank you so much. No, thank you guys.
00:53:05.989 --> 00:53:09.409
Thank you. It was a really interesting, educative,
00:53:09.409 --> 00:53:12.849
fun experience, fun conversation. And thanks
00:53:12.849 --> 00:53:14.969
everyone for listening. And we've said coffee
00:53:14.969 --> 00:53:17.289
so much, I can only think about the coffee now.
00:53:17.289 --> 00:53:20.030
I was thinking the same thing. Thank you.