WEBVTT
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If I told you to go for a run and make sure you sleep enough and make sure you're eating a good amount of vegetables.
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And then before you go to bed, take an egg out of the fridge and just look at it for a while.
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And then put it away.
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And then if you say that, "Oh what really changed my life was looking at this egg" when it's all of the other boring stuff that you know, you should be doing.
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I think that's very often what happens when you see like either a new diet, or a new exercise trend, or a new management style where you can identify the parts that are good and then they've sometimes just added some kind of flourish to update it.
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When was the last time your company announced a new wellness initiative?
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Maybe it was a meditation app subscription, or a fitness challenge, or another program promising to optimize your performance.
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Now ask yourself, when was the last time someone at work just asked how you were feeling?
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I'm Ben Jackson, and this is Work Face, a podcast where people finally tell the truth about work.
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Our guest today is Ashwin Rodrigues, a freelance writer whose work has been featured in Defector, GQ, The New York Times, Vice, and Wired, among others.
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After leaving a career in tech and becoming obsessed with self improvement, Ashwin began reporting on fitness and wellness culture.
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His recent piece in the New York Times, titled, “I Refuse to Cede My Love of Fitness to the Far Right”, explores how the space has become politicized while arguing for a moderate approach to health, one that doesn't require extreme ideology or complete devotion to wellness culture.
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Ashwin Rodrigues, welcome to the show!
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Thanks for having me, Ben.
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It's really great to have you here.
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Ashwin's a personal friend.
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I'm a big fan of his work and I'm really, really excited to have him on the show today.
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Before we start, what should our listeners know about you?
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It depends what they're interested in.
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I've spent a good amount of time working in tech.
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I've worked in music and comedy coverage and I've covered health and wellness.
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So I'm sure there's one reason or another that we could discuss or argue about anything.
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Are there any highlights that you want to share, think might be especially interesting to people who care about workplace culture?
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Well, I think in terms of my background, what, you know, has given me some, unique experience is I had always been interested in writing, but I first worked in tech because I was discouraged into going into journalism right out of high school.
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Just because of how the job market was and prospects and things like that.
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But because of my time working in tech before I transitioned into writing, I was pretty immersed in that world.
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So I'm very familiar with, you know, the office politics of both large tech corporations and more scrappy startups.
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So I have a lot of empathy for a lot of different workplace cultures and what tends to be lacking in those spaces.
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So what do you remember about the first time you felt insecure in the workplace?
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One of the first times was literally out of college.
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I, I was lucky enough to secure a job while I was still in my like junior year of college.
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I had interned at a large company and got an offer for when I graduated.
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It was a large tech company and I worked in marketing for cloud computing services.
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And, you know, a side note there is that the person who offered me a job said, he gave me this very profound talk about how, if I didn't want to work in tech, to get out sooner rather than later, because it will become more and more difficult to leave.
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And he talked about, you know, when I have kids and I wasn't even, you know, dating anyone at the time, but gave me this long, profound talk about… you know, what happens down the road, but, you know, so I, I go to this company right out of school and I'm one of the youngest people on my team by large margin, and obviously working in tech that has some advantages where they expect and assume that you have some technical know how and expertise, but also if you haven't worked in a workplace before, or if you're younger than people, then you're kind of always feeling like you have to prove yourself, or at least I was.
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What's the first moment at that job where you really felt that you had to prove yourself?
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And who did you feel like you had to prove yourself to?
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We were working towards launching something, and it required everybody to work more hours than usual, at an already grueling pace.
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We were working at, like, I remember there was one week that I put in like 90 plus hours for this launch.
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And it was one of those times that, I'm the youngest person on the team and people are asking me to do things probably because I'm the youngest person on the team.
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And I knew that it was between me doing it and not getting done and feeling like I had to prove... you know, you can almost see in advance, like, if you fail this, then that's something that comes up either in a review or, you know, just something people on the team remember happens.
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So did you deliver after working all those 90 hour weeks?
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Yes, it was only one or two.
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But I found it very funny that my, I was acknowledged for my hard work.
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And I wasn't anomalous.
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I wasn't completely anomalous.
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I remember there was one day where I startled someone almost to death, because I was walking into the bathroom when they were walking out and it was 11 o'clock at night, in the office, but I was commended for my work with like a 20-dollar gift card to Amazon.
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What was the mood like on the team during those moments when you were working 90 hour weeks?
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In general, it was a very high pressure environment.
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where people were constantly thinking about what projects get visibility.
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So, you know, it looks good for management for when you're up for a review or, so and so sent this email, so let's reprioritize, you know, it's just kind of a grueling pace, typical of a, or not typical of a large company, but maybe typical of a high growth company.
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Kind of the worst of both worlds where there was like some bureaucracy, but also expected to deliver at the pace of a startup.
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But my team, which.
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If I recall, it was like eight people.
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It was a lot of bouts of like rapid and hectic work.
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And then there would be some kind of, you know, ostensible release where we would like have a lunch together.
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You know, do some kind of non work trauma-bonding activity.
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a little melon party like in Severance?
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Exactly.
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How did that high pressure environment affect the way that you communicated with your peers?
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I had to be realistic about where I was in the organization where sometimes I could, just through the experience of working with certain people, trying to triage what was an actual emergency versus this person is overworked and they're treating everything like an emergency.
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So I tried to, you know, one of my skills was communication, both, you know, interpersonally and written more so.
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And like, to put it into concrete terms, one of my jobs was like prioritizing design work.
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Where I would have to work with the designers who don't want to interact with like the marketing and business folks at all.
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So prioritizing those things and being the person… because, like, an artist is not going to work well if they are under the gun, necessarily.
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So I'm the one kind of being like, "When you have a moment, please make this graphic. When you have a moment, please do this." So I think I got better at, like, digesting people's like sense of urgency and realizing what was what.
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Does that make any sense?
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Yeah, it makes sense.
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And it makes me wonder, what would a better world even look like in a big company like this, that's also got really, really aggressive growth targets?
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I think it's like an existential question.
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Where, you know, you can't from the bottom up be like, guys, we can still, you know, basically be printing money and relax a lot more, because these are false senses of urgency that keep being, you know, installed in everybody's minds and it's not even that radical of a thought.
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I remember when a more senior person joined the team, one of the first things he did in like a, a group meeting with our team and some others, he held up his phone and he was like,"you know what, none of us are working on the cure for cancer. So you know, come in, do your job and leave, and then come back tomorrow and do it." And he was going very much against the culture of like, You know, it's kind of cliche at this point, but valorizing the email sent at two in the morning and all of that nonsense.
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But I don't know how it structurally changes, because like that guy was an anomaly.
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He didn't change the culture.
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He was just like, if you were lucky enough to work under him, you had a better and healthier expectation of, you know, separation of work and life, but I think in general, what that takes is like a, a top down kind of, thinking that way.
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But, but if it's worked, quote unquote, worked in the past, I, I find it difficult that they would want to Make that change
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How did things work out for that leader and their team?
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In terms of outcomes?
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I couldn't say, but he was, you know, well liked in the organization and he delivered on, you know, what he was supposed to be doing.
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What are some of the other memories that stick out to you from your time in tech?
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The first one is always this false sense of urgency.
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And I think you'd realize it when you go out and you meet friends who work somewhere else and you explain what you're so stressed about, and they'll be like, "it sounds like you just have to send an email to a few thousand people." You're like,"yeah, I guess that is basically it." I think you can become so siloed in what you're doing, which has pros and cons, but you lose your sense of perspective sometimes of what's actually important in terms of the earth.
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But like on a positive side, it was cool and interesting that, you got all of these people who did not have necessarily tech backgrounds, like my background was like business marketing and psych, and then there were people with, a master's in public health or, okay, engineering or electrical.
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Which I, after leaving, found that was like not typical of most spaces, but that is pretty typical of larger tech companies.
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I don't know how much that's the case now.
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What was the thing that surprised you most going in and maybe what was also the thing that surprised you most when you left?
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Going in, I was lucky to have an experience where my college offered a co op program.
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So I had worked for this company full time in their office for six months while I was in college.
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So I got a good test drive of what the office experience would be like, but again, I think having this as my first job out of college set a very… it set a great baseline for future companies in terms of the pace that I was used to and the quality of output that I was expected to deliver, and, the workload that you were expected to take on.
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So I think that was the thing that coming out of tech, realizing that there wasn't necessarily a grueling pace as the standard across all industries, was a very happy discovery to make after exiting.
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How would you rate your mental health when you were in tech and how would you rate it now that you're out?
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When I was in tech, it was definitely more variable.
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When I was fresh out of school, like I was, I had the perspective and gratitude of having a job coming out of school, not having to worry about it too much to search for one, and then able to fly back home to see my family whenever I needed to on the weekend or… my bottom tier of in the hierarchy of needs was very much taken care of.
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But the thing that made it tough mental health wise is when you come to the realization pretty quickly that I didn't really want my job or to progress to a level that I get my boss's job or my boss's job, et cetera.
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Then you realize you're like, "okay in addition to this workload, I have to put together a plan," which is a full time job in and of itself.
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Things were rough when I came to that realization, which was like I'd say a few months in, but coming out of it, obviously there's been some financial downside to doing so, but the mental upside of doing something that I care about, and seem to be pretty good at, has been like fulfilling in a way that, I find to be worth it.
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What was the biggest challenge that you had when you first joined?
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I think, and this was probably more internal than external, but, and not to sound cliche, but like proving that I was supposed to be there in the sense that it was a very… selective company.
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And I was again, like the youngest person on my team and fighting that feeling of "okay, I have to prove that I know about this.
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And, especially in like cloud computing, which is a relatively technical space.
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Did you ever share anything with your boss about how you were feeling or how it was affecting your performance?
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No, I didn't feel like I had that kind of rapport with anyone that I worked with, really.
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I've had a few different managers . And there were some, there was probably like one or two where they were more keyed in.
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And I think a good manager can tell how people are doing, because if you have to rely on your reports to tell you, then I think that's already like strike four.
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But yeah, I'd say in general, like I kept the mentality of perform, bottle this up, and use your lunch break to go to the gym.
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So I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey out of tech.
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What was the moment when you realized you mentioned even a few months in, what was the moment when you realized a few months in that this was not for you?
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It's hard to pinpoint it to an exact moment in time.
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But that thought that I told you where I didn't want my job or my boss's job or anyone's job on the floor that I worked on.
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I realized—and I reflected back on the conversation that I got when I had the job offer presented to me, where it's like inertia, he didn't use that word, but I thought about that, where it's like, you can stay here, and, if you perform, which I had shown to myself and the company that I could, then you would progress upwards in both title and compensation.
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But I was like, I need to do something to change this.
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And it was actually, my dad who pointed out or noticed, he was like, you don't seem very happy and you were always pretty good at writing.
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Why don't you do that?
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Or is is there anything you can do with that?
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And he's not keyed into the journalism world or anything about that, but it was the same time that Medium had just launched.
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So I was realistic in the sense that I knew I had to plan something and I had to get some external validation from strangers that my writing was worth being compensated for.
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So I started writing while I was working, just after work on the weekends, as a way to both practice and get some feedback because this was back on when Medium was just like publishing things for the love of the game, I had set a goal to get published in a real, an actual publication.
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I set that goal in a January of one year, and then that April, I got my first piece published in Vice.
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And it still then it was like a slow burn.
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But knowing that I had one foot into something that I love doing kind of released that pressure valve of I'm doing something I don't want to do, from being like too overwhelming.
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I'll bet I mean, it sounds like the job in tech it sounds like it took a toll on your mental health.
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I'm curious, you know, you mentioned a moment ago that you were performing really well and, it sounds to me like you were performing in both senses of the word here, right?
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Both performing well in the job that you were hired to do, and also performing the role of somebody who's enjoying their job and not building a life raft for themselves by writing on Medium in their spare time.
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Did you reflect on that performance at all, or on what that performance was doing to your mental health?
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I haven't really reflected on that piece too much, but I think there's two components to it where even, like taking a step back, one thing, now that I have spent time writing, and I've had full time jobs writing and I've spoken to people, friends of mine who work in various industries, just because as they would say, "it's a job." They're like, "I don't have something that I'd like to do that I can make money doing," so I'm like very grateful for that aspect, like that's not a, guaranteed route or something that a lot of people can plan to do.
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So I'm super grateful for that.
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But going back to performance, there's that, phenomenon where if you smile, then you will be happy according to psychology.
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And I think a lot of people are not naïve and they're just like trying to make the best of it there.
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Like the relation, that's the reason like the relationships you make at work are so valuable, they're like, put into hyperspeed because you've had, a great experience with this person, a horrible experience with this person, all the things that happen at a very fast paced work environment.
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And then obviously if everybody was wearing their emotions on their sleeve in a hectic, fast paced environment, that would not be ideal for anyone.
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So I, I was definitely very aware of the term and technique of compartmentalization, where I was not going to be candid about how I felt or how I was doing in the context of the workplace.
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That was what having friends was for, or playing indoor soccer, or going to the gym . That's when you vented about work, but not at work.
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So since leaving tech you've become a bit of a wellness expert, right?
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Yeah.
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It was a, logical stop for now on my writing journey.
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I actually, to quickly take you through it: at first I was writing about tech and like tech culture . I did some work for Motherboard which is the tech section of Vice—shout-out to 404 Media—and I was also doing some like satire that Fortune was trying out, and, doing some like men's culture stuff for Mel magazine.
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And from there I went, eventually got a full time job at Vice covering hip hop and comedy.
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And then from there I worked at Morning Brew as a business reporter.
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That is where I started doing more.
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Health stuff like full time.
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Because luckily my editor was also interested in the space.
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So we would find business excuses to cover health and wellness and fitness stories.
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For example, I think we were one of the first publications to go long on seed oils and that whole fiasco that is still going on today.
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But that started from my time in tech basically, but because of my own personal experience where, you know, I was unhappy, and my outlet was " health" in the sense of exercise as an outlet.
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So I was like playing soccer a couple of times a week.
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I would sometimes, lift before work and then after work or go to, the gym at lunch.
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But I just got super into that space and then there's so much to read about it.
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And there's so many podcasts to get into and… my like grand theory about why it's so popular, especially amongst tech workers, not tech, executives is that it gives you a sense of control over something where it's okay, I can do this.
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And if I spend this amount of time, I can reach this lifting goal.
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If I do this, I will in the short term, you'll feel great.
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You have a good, workout session, you have a good meal.
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And that's a nice feeling.
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And it's in your immediate area and you can control all of that.
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And I think that's the reason it's so popular, especially in, grueling work environments, which is, there's also to say exercise has all of these cognitive and mental health benefits.
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So I don't think it's just for the cope of it all
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So what do you think is motivating the founders and executives that might be different from the rank and file?
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I mean, they're into longevity, self improvement, self optimization stuff too, right?
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The way that I think about it, and the way that it's covered with… you know just Google "Bryan Johnson." Depending on how you spell it, you'll find the Liver King or you'll find the tech CEO who's trying to become an 18 year old boy.
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And the way I think about the CEOs, and all these guys who are doing the very experimental wacky stuff, it’s like, at a car show they show you a concept car that has all these features that will never make it to the base model that you will be able to buy in five years.
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And that's how I think about a lot of this stuff where they're trying things that you know, some of it won't pan out, some of it is already debunked.
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Some of it might be, but it'll be prohibitively expensive to the average person.
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But I think their, kind of motivation seems more existential.
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Technically, if anyone's gonna have the means to live forever, it's them.
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I don't think it's a money problem.
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I don't think there's a guy that you can give enough money that he can make you live forever.
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But I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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But I don't think the average person say who lifts weights and works for Facebook, they're not trying to live until they're 200.
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just trying to, probably get a little stronger and maybe blow off some steam.
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So I want to talk a little bit about the rise of corporate wellness, the kinds of employee wellness incentives that free gym memberships.
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meditation app credits, but also you know, things like unlimited paid time off, or weeks where the whole company shuts down . Have you reported on any of that?
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I haven't, but I think it's very interesting that the packaging matters so much, where if I just came across a flyer on the ground and it was like, here's a meditation app credit for free, I might be willing to try it out, but, I think to some people, if their employer says,"here's a meditation app," you're like,"Whoa, why do you think I need that?
00:22:58.798 --> 00:23:11.821
Or what's going on here?" So I think the things that really improve wellness are the material things of paid time off, and you decide what to do with your time, as opposed to, " We've given you two hours… to meditate.
00:23:12.209 --> 00:23:18.304
The only thing you can do with this is meditate." And they're like "my form of meditation is like going for a run.
00:23:18.354 --> 00:23:30.096
What do you have for that?" And then they're like, "okay, we can offer this credit or we can offer that." So I think it comes down to having options that are the most broad, but like the most accessible where it's… which is PTO.
00:23:30.742 --> 00:23:47.615
You know, what's striking to me about what you're describing is that it requires granting employees a level of freedom and choice that is really in tension with scale and efficiency and optimization.
00:23:47.625 --> 00:23:51.038
It's really hard to let's say secure a bunch of discounts.
00:23:51.183 --> 00:23:57.983
for employees, if you are accommodating all of the different things that anybody might want to do.
00:23:58.227 --> 00:24:03.759
And of course it's easier to just give everybody a debit card, and say, go spend it on whatever you want.
00:24:04.209 --> 00:24:08.828
But that then requires giving people the freedom to make those choices.
00:24:09.669 --> 00:24:10.028
Yeah.
00:24:10.058 --> 00:24:35.717
And I think that reminds me, I've heard of places that basically do that because obviously you can't, or maybe it can be all PTO, but it's not, but other options that places offer is like a wellness stipend where you can buy stuff up to a certain amount, which it could be, a, yoga class or a piece of equipment or, whatever it is, as long as it fits under this large umbrella of what they cover.
00:24:35.717 --> 00:24:57.074
So then that way there is a sense of," please do put this money towards something that is generally good, but we're not going to tell you what it is," because I'm sure you've seen to where when companies offer those perks, where it's a whole marketplace of managed deals that they've made. And my first thought is like,"how much did you pay for this platform?
00:24:57.213 --> 00:24:59.657
When ( a) most people aren't going to use it.
00:24:59.657 --> 00:25:06.191
And (b) if you just gave the money directly to your, employees, you could probably achieve some cost efficiencies."
00:25:06.878 --> 00:25:16.646
I find it very interesting to see the parallels between I mean, I guess this sounds a lot to me like government aid, Do we give people direct cash aid?
00:25:16.656 --> 00:25:23.383
Do we, do we just raise everyone's salaries by a thousand dollars and allow them to go spend the money on whatever makes them well?
00:25:23.506 --> 00:25:33.019
Or do we give everyone a thousand dollar wellness stipend so that we're certain that they're not spending that money on things that might make them unwell.
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:43.655
I think cynically, you can say that putting it in a wellness bucket allows them to say they spent X amount of money on wellness, even if the alternative is more effective.
00:25:43.868 --> 00:25:50.515
I don't know if it's a happy medium, but it's somewhere in between forcing someone to go to yoga class and just adding money to their salary.
00:25:50.603 --> 00:25:54.575
But I think in general, and I wouldn't like it's a, it's an apt comparison.
00:25:54.855 --> 00:25:57.663
Tech people are very fine for the most part.
00:25:57.821 --> 00:26:06.548
But conditioning funds… the more layers of complexity you add to it, then the more cumbersome it is to, have it effectively be used.
00:26:07.137 --> 00:26:09.253
So I want to talk a little bit about your article for the Times.
00:26:09.457 --> 00:26:11.436
What drove you to write it?
00:26:11.624 --> 00:26:15.030
And the timing, right after the election, what, what drove it?
00:26:15.703 --> 00:26:18.547
So the timing was coincidental.
00:26:18.606 --> 00:26:46.194
The piece was actually in edits when, Trump won the election, which I did not lock into DraftKings, I have to say, but it was something where regardless of who won, these kind of more fringy ideas and to zoom out, it was a piece about the wellness space, particularly for men and podcasting often can veer into what is to me like unpalatable politics or far right fringy stuff.
00:26:46.325 --> 00:26:56.938
I was trying to make the point that you can be interested in somewhat fringy ideas in terms of health and wellness, but you should also be aware that is what they are.
00:26:57.077 --> 00:27:09.929
And I made the parallel to treating it like reality TV, where you're listening to it, mostly for entertainment, you shouldn't be taking action on most of what you're hearing, and you absolutely should not be recommending it to other people.
00:27:10.063 --> 00:27:21.150
And I think there's a very unvocal minority because I got a lot of good feedback where people say that they listen to a bunch of these wellness podcasts, but they don't tell anyone about it.
00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:22.670
They don't really do anything about it.
00:27:22.670 --> 00:27:27.332
They're not doing anything crazy with their diet or exercise regimens.
00:27:27.382 --> 00:27:47.664
And the original, headline, if you like search in the archive is"Wellness Should Be Just a Hobby." And it was basically to encourage people to take a beat, because these podcasts have become incredibly popular and there are some people who are probably hearing like Andrew Huberman's voice more than they hear their spouses, like depending on how much they listen.
00:27:47.872 --> 00:27:49.981
And obviously that's going to have some kind of effect.
00:27:49.991 --> 00:27:56.606
So it was a point to be like, you can enjoy it, but now try and keep a, an arms distance before you buy into everything.
00:27:56.818 --> 00:28:03.211
I mean, to, to use a term that's unfortunately become very popular recently, I mean, it's kayfabe.
00:28:03.315 --> 00:28:03.654
Right?
00:28:03.694 --> 00:28:05.174
It's, it's professional wrestling.
00:28:05.174 --> 00:28:07.949
People watching professional wrestling, they know it's fake.
00:28:08.077 --> 00:28:09.528
They're watching it for entertainment.
00:28:09.892 --> 00:28:18.953
How do you think that that kind of entertainment, that the consumption of this kind of wellness entertainment, what kind of impact does it have on the listeners?
00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:23.880
I think there's this idea—many of them, they're so well produced.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:25.079
They sound good.
00:28:25.234 --> 00:28:26.015
They're calming.
00:28:26.055 --> 00:28:44.722
And the way that I think about it is not kayfabe, but it's like, education Lorem Ipsum, where it's playing and it's very pleasant, you're listening to it in the background, and you can make a very solid argument where, you know, even if I don't pick up everything, maybe I will learn something about something by having this on.
00:28:45.202 --> 00:28:52.163
So I think one of the ways when I was discussing the piece with my editor was this idea of like information FOMO.
00:28:52.773 --> 00:29:09.042
Where I might miss out on something if I don't consume all of this content at a regular clip . And I think to be able to, hover above the space or dip in and out depending on when it's interesting to you requires a lot of discretion for the listener.
00:29:09.556 --> 00:29:20.615
It's fascinating hearing you describe this and the parallels that I'm hearing with a lot of management and leadership advice and podcasts and books.
00:29:20.615 --> 00:29:26.175
There is a ton of content out there for how to be a great founder, how to be an effective leader.
00:29:26.961 --> 00:29:27.221
Yeah.
00:29:27.221 --> 00:29:41.364
And it's funny because it seems that the founders that do well and cultivate a place where people want to work their Instagram Reels is just having a company where employees are talking to their friends and people.
00:29:41.473 --> 00:29:44.513
Like it just gets out through the network that's a good place to work.
00:29:44.682 --> 00:30:01.291
They probably aren't cutting reels to be like, this is what you do to have a killer team and et cetera, because that has become such a genre that there's a new genre of like people satirizing that specifically.
00:29:57.336 --> 00:30:11.607
Benjamin: You know, I think a lot their own research." There is a contrarian streak in, I don't know, the mythology of the founder, right?
00:30:12.202 --> 00:30:18.672
And I wonder what the fascination with wellness and self optimization culture in tech.
00:30:18.969 --> 00:30:29.645
I guess I wonder what kinds of implications that do your own research attitude has for how these leaders build the cultures in their companies?
00:30:29.794 --> 00:30:33.273
You know, I see Myers Briggs and, and DISC assessments.
00:30:33.273 --> 00:30:45.115
I see all kinds of management fads, the, the, the manager READMEs that made the rounds a few years ago, all of these things, you know, that are really well-marketed great stories.
00:30:45.327 --> 00:30:56.631
And many of which, I mean, I'm thinking especially of Myers Briggs, which has, has been, pilloried by the scientific establishments over decades, that just don’t, don't hold up to critical scrutiny.
00:30:56.891 --> 00:30:58.590
And I think that's what we're really talking about here, right?
00:30:58.590 --> 00:31:11.030
It's, it's, it's critical scrutiny and the listener's or the viewer's or the reader's ability to actually examine the claims being made and the evidence being made to support them.
00:31:11.346 --> 00:31:13.076
It's one of those things where you can't.
00:31:13.238 --> 00:31:18.752
You'll have a very hard time, convincing someone that they didn't have an experience that they had.
00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:30.644
For example, to give a very specific example, there are a lot of people who have bought into seed oils being bad, and they cut them out and then they feel better and then they're bought in whatever.
00:31:30.694 --> 00:31:40.067
But to put it into management styles… One of the influencers that I spoke to once, he was saying that " None of the stuff that I'm trying to promote is inherently sexy.
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:48.963
So I have to make it sexy." If I told you to go for a run and make sure you sleep enough and make sure you're eating a good amount of vegetables.
00:31:49.153 --> 00:31:53.548
And then before you go to bed, take an egg out of the fridge and just look at it for a while.
00:31:53.617 --> 00:31:54.587
And then put it away.
00:31:54.703 --> 00:32:03.750
And then if you say that, "Oh what really changed my life was looking at this egg," when it's all of the other boring stuff that you know, you should be doing.
00:32:03.931 --> 00:32:19.461
I think that's very often what happens when you see like either a new diet, or a new exercise trend, or a new management style where you can identify the parts that are good and then they've sometimes just added some kind of flourish to update it.
00:32:20.317 --> 00:32:33.972
What advice would you give to a founder, anyone in charge, who sincerely cares about the wellness, the mental health, the physical health of the people who work for them?
00:32:34.915 --> 00:32:56.218
I think it depends on the size of the company, but it's one of those things where if you instill it from the beginning that you can actually approach your boss, even if it's not the founder, but just that bottom-up communication is allowed when it's not necessarily work related, incentivizing people with direct reports to check on how their people are doing.
00:32:56.315 --> 00:33:06.076
Because obviously not just for out of the graciousness of their hearts, but that's how you know that people won't leave and that people will perform is to make sure that they're doing okay.
00:33:06.259 --> 00:33:21.170
I think it's very hard when people have installed one culture and then they find something is wrong and then all of a sudden you have a lurking founder asking people how they're doing, and they're like, "Oh, wait, am I going to be fired? Or what's going on here?" comes across as very insincere.
00:33:21.170 --> 00:33:34.022
So if it's like something that a founder cares about, whatever you can do to have that in the DNA of the company, as opposed to basically recognizing that if it's not in the DNA of the company, if you try to install it later on, it will seem like a reaction.
00:33:34.746 --> 00:33:43.282
And what does it mean to embed wellness in the DNA of your company for early stage founders who are just building this out?
00:33:43.730 --> 00:34:23.786
I think it's like an intangible of how you speak to people and what kind of conversations are allowed, and I know it's a gray space where some of it is, "Okay we can't talk about everything and how we feel in the context of this marketing planning meeting," but if you create and incentivize and bring in people where that is how they operate, where they have an emotional intelligence, and they have an idea of how they're how other people are doing and working accordingly, because… I'm sure you've had cases where you're working on a team and you know personally that someone is having a hard time because of some personal issue and then everybody just triages the work accordingly.
00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:26.599
This person isn't going to be able to get X amount done.
00:34:26.737 --> 00:34:28.447
So you just fill in the gaps.
00:34:28.653 --> 00:34:33.996
And that's an understood, more of a social agreement than a contractual one.
00:34:34.713 --> 00:34:39.403
And is that idea… I mean, put simply "help each other?"
00:34:40.403 --> 00:34:40.864
Yeah.
00:34:41.003 --> 00:34:41.623
Basically,
00:34:42.623 --> 00:35:07.768
What advice would you give to an employee who is in a company that maybe has that grueling pace that you described from your first job in tech, maybe doesn't have the ability to leave that job right now, doesn't have a plan or even an idea for what their, what their plan to get out is, but who still wants to protect their own mental health, even while they're discovering that plan for the first time?
00:35:08.632 --> 00:35:23.382
I would, look up the serenity prayer and put that into their own words, but actually try and figure out what you can actually change in the short term, and what you can't change, how can you make peace with, realizing that's something that you may or may not have to do.
00:35:23.525 --> 00:35:29.275
And if that's like untenable, then you might have to come up with a different plan for staying or leaving.
00:35:29.777 --> 00:35:31.878
Ashwin, this has been such a pleasure.
00:35:32.123 --> 00:35:34.313
Where can people find you on the internet?
00:35:34.985 --> 00:35:41.860
The best place is probably my website, which is just ashwinrodrigues.com, which has links to all of my work.
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:46.893
And if anyone is on blue sky, I'm on there as ashwinrodrigues.com.
00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:48.199
Thank you.
00:35:48.304 --> 00:35:52.233
Before I let you go, is there anything you haven't had a chance to share and think we should know?
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:53.570
I don't think so.
00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:54.550
This has been great.
00:35:54.608 --> 00:35:59.628
You've unlocked a lot of memories that I haven't thought about for a long time, but I really enjoyed this conversation.
00:36:01.231 --> 00:36:01.920
I did too.
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:03.561
I'm sure our listeners will as well.
00:36:04.121 --> 00:36:05.161
Thank you so much.
00:36:05.161 --> 00:36:05.550
Take care.
00:36:05.628 --> 00:36:06.099
Thanks, Ben.
00:36:06.409 --> 00:36:06.579
See ya.
00:36:08.108 --> 00:36:12.807
Work Face is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen.
00:36:13.338 --> 00:36:15.867
Our consulting producer is Lina Misitzis.
00:36:16.172 --> 00:36:18.882
Original music composed by me, Ben Jackson.
00:36:19.282 --> 00:36:21.793
Special thanks to Rob McRae and Michelle Mattar.
00:36:22.253 --> 00:36:31.532
To learn more about Hear Me Out, visit hearmeout.co, follow us on Instagram at @hearmeout_co, or find us on LinkedIn by searching for Hear Me Out.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.690
If I told you to go for a run and make sure you sleep enough and make sure you're eating a good amount of vegetables.
00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:12.960
And then before you go to bed, take an egg out of the fridge and just look at it for a while.
00:00:13.294 --> 00:00:14.265
And then put it away.
00:00:15.044 --> 00:00:25.445
And then if you say that, "Oh what really changed my life was looking at this egg" when it's all of the other boring stuff that you know, you should be doing.
00:00:26.234 --> 00:00:44.359
I think that's very often what happens when you see like either a new diet, or a new exercise trend, or a new management style where you can identify the parts that are good and then they've sometimes just added some kind of flourish to update it.
00:00:45.054 --> 00:00:48.694
When was the last time your company announced a new wellness initiative?
00:00:49.179 --> 00:00:55.210
Maybe it was a meditation app subscription, or a fitness challenge, or another program promising to optimize your performance.
00:00:55.789 --> 00:01:00.560
Now ask yourself, when was the last time someone at work just asked how you were feeling?
00:01:01.659 --> 00:01:07.632
I'm Ben Jackson, and this is Work Face, a podcast where people finally tell the truth about work.
00:01:09.653 --> 00:01:19.353
Our guest today is Ashwin Rodrigues, a freelance writer whose work has been featured in Defector, GQ, The New York Times, Vice, and Wired, among others.
00:01:20.353 --> 00:01:26.754
After leaving a career in tech and becoming obsessed with self improvement, Ashwin began reporting on fitness and wellness culture.
00:01:27.293 --> 00:01:43.024
His recent piece in the New York Times, titled, “I Refuse to Cede My Love of Fitness to the Far Right”, explores how the space has become politicized while arguing for a moderate approach to health, one that doesn't require extreme ideology or complete devotion to wellness culture.
00:01:43.793 --> 00:01:45.763
Ashwin Rodrigues, welcome to the show!
00:01:46.072 --> 00:01:46.962
Thanks for having me, Ben.
00:01:47.591 --> 00:01:49.141
It's really great to have you here.
00:01:49.262 --> 00:01:51.712
Ashwin's a personal friend.
00:01:51.762 --> 00:01:55.841
I'm a big fan of his work and I'm really, really excited to have him on the show today.
00:01:56.552 --> 00:01:59.171
Before we start, what should our listeners know about you?
00:02:00.105 --> 00:02:01.626
It depends what they're interested in.
00:02:02.575 --> 00:02:05.275
I've spent a good amount of time working in tech.
00:02:05.346 --> 00:02:09.746
I've worked in music and comedy coverage and I've covered health and wellness.
00:02:09.756 --> 00:02:16.116
So I'm sure there's one reason or another that we could discuss or argue about anything.
00:02:16.985 --> 00:02:23.004
Are there any highlights that you want to share, think might be especially interesting to people who care about workplace culture?
00:02:23.907 --> 00:02:40.186
Well, I think in terms of my background, what, you know, has given me some, unique experience is I had always been interested in writing, but I first worked in tech because I was discouraged into going into journalism right out of high school.
00:02:40.602 --> 00:02:44.081
Just because of how the job market was and prospects and things like that.
00:02:44.722 --> 00:02:50.961
But because of my time working in tech before I transitioned into writing, I was pretty immersed in that world.
00:02:50.961 --> 00:03:00.331
So I'm very familiar with, you know, the office politics of both large tech corporations and more scrappy startups.
00:03:00.361 --> 00:03:07.431
So I have a lot of empathy for a lot of different workplace cultures and what tends to be lacking in those spaces.
00:03:08.705 --> 00:03:11.574
So what do you remember about the first time you felt insecure in the workplace?
00:03:12.375 --> 00:03:17.064
One of the first times was literally out of college.
00:03:17.094 --> 00:03:25.465
I, I was lucky enough to secure a job while I was still in my like junior year of college.
00:03:25.504 --> 00:03:31.745
I had interned at a large company and got an offer for when I graduated.
00:03:32.245 --> 00:03:38.003
It was a large tech company and I worked in marketing for cloud computing services.
00:03:38.054 --> 00:03:54.889
And, you know, a side note there is that the person who offered me a job said, he gave me this very profound talk about how, if I didn't want to work in tech, to get out sooner rather than later, because it will become more and more difficult to leave.
00:03:55.269 --> 00:04:37.478
And he talked about, you know, when I have kids and I wasn't even, you know, dating anyone at the time, but gave me this long, profound talk about… you know, what happens down the road, but, you know, so I, I go to this company right out of school and I'm one of the youngest people on my team by large margin, and obviously working in tech that has some advantages where they expect and assume that you have some technical know how and expertise, but also if you haven't worked in a workplace before, or if you're younger than people, then you're kind of always feeling like you have to prove yourself, or at least I was.
00:04:38.278 --> 00:04:44.189
What's the first moment at that job where you really felt that you had to prove yourself?
00:04:44.488 --> 00:04:46.668
And who did you feel like you had to prove yourself to?
00:04:47.137 --> 00:04:57.562
We were working towards launching something, and it required everybody to work more hours than usual, at an already grueling pace.
00:04:57.562 --> 00:05:03.932
We were working at, like, I remember there was one week that I put in like 90 plus hours for this launch.
00:05:04.062 --> 00:05:11.348
And it was one of those times that, I'm the youngest person on the team and people are asking me to do things probably because I'm the youngest person on the team.
00:05:11.528 --> 00:05:30.372
And I knew that it was between me doing it and not getting done and feeling like I had to prove... you know, you can almost see in advance, like, if you fail this, then that's something that comes up either in a review or, you know, just something people on the team remember happens.
00:05:30.372 --> 00:05:34.096
So did you deliver after working all those 90 hour weeks?
00:05:34.654 --> 00:05:36.725
Yes, it was only one or two.
00:05:37.107 --> 00:05:42.156
But I found it very funny that my, I was acknowledged for my hard work.
00:05:42.353 --> 00:05:43.963
And I wasn't anomalous.
00:05:43.963 --> 00:05:45.343
I wasn't completely anomalous.
00:05:45.343 --> 00:05:58.954
I remember there was one day where I startled someone almost to death, because I was walking into the bathroom when they were walking out and it was 11 o'clock at night, in the office, but I was commended for my work with like a 20-dollar gift card to Amazon.
00:05:59.781 --> 00:06:04.812
What was the mood like on the team during those moments when you were working 90 hour weeks?
00:06:05.194 --> 00:06:07.624
In general, it was a very high pressure environment.
00:06:07.824 --> 00:06:12.497
where people were constantly thinking about what projects get visibility.
00:06:12.694 --> 00:06:28.716
So, you know, it looks good for management for when you're up for a review or, so and so sent this email, so let's reprioritize, you know, it's just kind of a grueling pace, typical of a, or not typical of a large company, but maybe typical of a high growth company.
00:06:28.817 --> 00:06:35.266
Kind of the worst of both worlds where there was like some bureaucracy, but also expected to deliver at the pace of a startup.
00:06:35.463 --> 00:06:36.653
But my team, which.
00:06:36.781 --> 00:06:38.781
If I recall, it was like eight people.
00:06:39.019 --> 00:06:43.829
It was a lot of bouts of like rapid and hectic work.
00:06:43.865 --> 00:06:49.641
And then there would be some kind of, you know, ostensible release where we would like have a lunch together.
00:06:50.141 --> 00:06:55.182
You know, do some kind of non work trauma-bonding activity.
00:06:56.507 --> 00:06:58.288
a little melon party like in Severance?
00:06:58.987 --> 00:06:59.708
Exactly.
00:07:00.661 --> 00:07:05.980
How did that high pressure environment affect the way that you communicated with your peers?
00:07:06.327 --> 00:07:23.637
I had to be realistic about where I was in the organization where sometimes I could, just through the experience of working with certain people, trying to triage what was an actual emergency versus this person is overworked and they're treating everything like an emergency.
00:07:23.927 --> 00:07:31.408
So I tried to, you know, one of my skills was communication, both, you know, interpersonally and written more so.
00:07:31.516 --> 00:07:38.206
And like, to put it into concrete terms, one of my jobs was like prioritizing design work.
00:07:38.255 --> 00:07:46.055
Where I would have to work with the designers who don't want to interact with like the marketing and business folks at all.
00:07:46.415 --> 00:07:55.805
So prioritizing those things and being the person… because, like, an artist is not going to work well if they are under the gun, necessarily.
00:07:55.805 --> 00:08:08.185
So I'm the one kind of being like, "When you have a moment, please make this graphic. When you have a moment, please do this." So I think I got better at, like, digesting people's like sense of urgency and realizing what was what.
00:08:08.685 --> 00:08:09.815
Does that make any sense?
00:08:10.244 --> 00:08:11.543
Yeah, it makes sense.
00:08:11.553 --> 00:08:19.509
And it makes me wonder, what would a better world even look like in a big company like this, that's also got really, really aggressive growth targets?
00:08:20.012 --> 00:08:23.101
I think it's like an existential question.
00:08:23.531 --> 00:08:42.333
Where, you know, you can't from the bottom up be like, guys, we can still, you know, basically be printing money and relax a lot more, because these are false senses of urgency that keep being, you know, installed in everybody's minds and it's not even that radical of a thought.
00:08:42.354 --> 00:09:09.971
I remember when a more senior person joined the team, one of the first things he did in like a, a group meeting with our team and some others, he held up his phone and he was like,"you know what, none of us are working on the cure for cancer. So you know, come in, do your job and leave, and then come back tomorrow and do it." And he was going very much against the culture of like, You know, it's kind of cliche at this point, but valorizing the email sent at two in the morning and all of that nonsense.
00:09:09.971 --> 00:09:13.822
But I don't know how it structurally changes, because like that guy was an anomaly.
00:09:14.052 --> 00:09:15.851
He didn't change the culture.
00:09:15.851 --> 00:09:31.683
He was just like, if you were lucky enough to work under him, you had a better and healthier expectation of, you know, separation of work and life, but I think in general, what that takes is like a, a top down kind of, thinking that way.
00:09:31.683 --> 00:09:38.518
But, but if it's worked, quote unquote, worked in the past, I, I find it difficult that they would want to Make that change
00:09:39.061 --> 00:09:41.321
How did things work out for that leader and their team?
00:09:41.653 --> 00:09:42.883
In terms of outcomes?
00:09:42.903 --> 00:09:50.919
I couldn't say, but he was, you know, well liked in the organization and he delivered on, you know, what he was supposed to be doing.
00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:54.669
What are some of the other memories that stick out to you from your time in tech?
00:09:55.298 --> 00:09:58.753
The first one is always this false sense of urgency.
00:09:58.918 --> 00:10:24.321
And I think you'd realize it when you go out and you meet friends who work somewhere else and you explain what you're so stressed about, and they'll be like, "it sounds like you just have to send an email to a few thousand people." You're like,"yeah, I guess that is basically it." I think you can become so siloed in what you're doing, which has pros and cons, but you lose your sense of perspective sometimes of what's actually important in terms of the earth.
00:10:24.585 --> 00:10:42.836
But like on a positive side, it was cool and interesting that, you got all of these people who did not have necessarily tech backgrounds, like my background was like business marketing and psych, and then there were people with, a master's in public health or, okay, engineering or electrical.
00:10:43.166 --> 00:10:51.700
Which I, after leaving, found that was like not typical of most spaces, but that is pretty typical of larger tech companies.
00:10:51.700 --> 00:10:53.993
I don't know how much that's the case now.
00:10:54.513 --> 00:11:01.611
What was the thing that surprised you most going in and maybe what was also the thing that surprised you most when you left?
00:11:02.700 --> 00:11:08.658
Going in, I was lucky to have an experience where my college offered a co op program.
00:11:08.886 --> 00:11:14.397
So I had worked for this company full time in their office for six months while I was in college.
00:11:14.657 --> 00:11:41.042
So I got a good test drive of what the office experience would be like, but again, I think having this as my first job out of college set a very… it set a great baseline for future companies in terms of the pace that I was used to and the quality of output that I was expected to deliver, and, the workload that you were expected to take on.
00:11:41.249 --> 00:11:55.413
So I think that was the thing that coming out of tech, realizing that there wasn't necessarily a grueling pace as the standard across all industries, was a very happy discovery to make after exiting.
00:11:56.413 --> 00:12:02.557
How would you rate your mental health when you were in tech and how would you rate it now that you're out?
00:12:03.124 --> 00:12:07.409
When I was in tech, it was definitely more variable.
00:12:07.687 --> 00:12:29.004
When I was fresh out of school, like I was, I had the perspective and gratitude of having a job coming out of school, not having to worry about it too much to search for one, and then able to fly back home to see my family whenever I needed to on the weekend or… my bottom tier of in the hierarchy of needs was very much taken care of.
00:12:29.144 --> 00:12:44.403
But the thing that made it tough mental health wise is when you come to the realization pretty quickly that I didn't really want my job or to progress to a level that I get my boss's job or my boss's job, et cetera.
00:12:44.788 --> 00:12:52.753
Then you realize you're like, "okay in addition to this workload, I have to put together a plan," which is a full time job in and of itself.
00:12:52.989 --> 00:13:14.351
Things were rough when I came to that realization, which was like I'd say a few months in, but coming out of it, obviously there's been some financial downside to doing so, but the mental upside of doing something that I care about, and seem to be pretty good at, has been like fulfilling in a way that, I find to be worth it.
00:13:14.942 --> 00:13:18.440
What was the biggest challenge that you had when you first joined?
00:13:18.841 --> 00:13:31.284
I think, and this was probably more internal than external, but, and not to sound cliche, but like proving that I was supposed to be there in the sense that it was a very… selective company.
00:13:31.365 --> 00:13:39.336
And I was again, like the youngest person on my team and fighting that feeling of "okay, I have to prove that I know about this.
00:13:39.452 --> 00:13:43.855
And, especially in like cloud computing, which is a relatively technical space.
00:13:44.855 --> 00:13:50.686
Did you ever share anything with your boss about how you were feeling or how it was affecting your performance?
00:13:51.686 --> 00:13:56.591
No, I didn't feel like I had that kind of rapport with anyone that I worked with, really.
00:13:56.601 --> 00:14:03.181
I've had a few different managers . And there were some, there was probably like one or two where they were more keyed in.
00:14:03.407 --> 00:14:13.924
And I think a good manager can tell how people are doing, because if you have to rely on your reports to tell you, then I think that's already like strike four.
00:14:13.985 --> 00:14:22.856
But yeah, I'd say in general, like I kept the mentality of perform, bottle this up, and use your lunch break to go to the gym.
00:14:23.856 --> 00:14:28.586
So I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey out of tech.
00:14:28.802 --> 00:14:37.567
What was the moment when you realized you mentioned even a few months in, what was the moment when you realized a few months in that this was not for you?
00:14:38.567 --> 00:14:42.480
It's hard to pinpoint it to an exact moment in time.
00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:49.567
But that thought that I told you where I didn't want my job or my boss's job or anyone's job on the floor that I worked on.
00:14:49.913 --> 00:15:12.590
I realized—and I reflected back on the conversation that I got when I had the job offer presented to me, where it's like inertia, he didn't use that word, but I thought about that, where it's like, you can stay here, and, if you perform, which I had shown to myself and the company that I could, then you would progress upwards in both title and compensation.
00:15:12.590 --> 00:15:15.648
But I was like, I need to do something to change this.
00:15:15.648 --> 00:15:24.270
And it was actually, my dad who pointed out or noticed, he was like, you don't seem very happy and you were always pretty good at writing.
00:15:24.270 --> 00:15:25.270
Why don't you do that?
00:15:25.418 --> 00:15:27.427
Or is is there anything you can do with that?
00:15:27.583 --> 00:15:36.660
And he's not keyed into the journalism world or anything about that, but it was the same time that Medium had just launched.
00:15:36.770 --> 00:15:48.745
So I was realistic in the sense that I knew I had to plan something and I had to get some external validation from strangers that my writing was worth being compensated for.
00:15:48.975 --> 00:16:06.293
So I started writing while I was working, just after work on the weekends, as a way to both practice and get some feedback because this was back on when Medium was just like publishing things for the love of the game, I had set a goal to get published in a real, an actual publication.
00:16:06.350 --> 00:16:12.106
I set that goal in a January of one year, and then that April, I got my first piece published in Vice.
00:16:12.318 --> 00:16:14.538
And it still then it was like a slow burn.
00:16:14.754 --> 00:16:25.019
But knowing that I had one foot into something that I love doing kind of released that pressure valve of I'm doing something I don't want to do, from being like too overwhelming.
00:16:26.019 --> 00:16:30.708
I'll bet I mean, it sounds like the job in tech it sounds like it took a toll on your mental health.
00:16:31.264 --> 00:16:44.695
I'm curious, you know, you mentioned a moment ago that you were performing really well and, it sounds to me like you were performing in both senses of the word here, right?
00:16:44.745 --> 00:17:00.004
Both performing well in the job that you were hired to do, and also performing the role of somebody who's enjoying their job and not building a life raft for themselves by writing on Medium in their spare time.
00:17:00.764 --> 00:17:08.483
Did you reflect on that performance at all, or on what that performance was doing to your mental health?
00:17:09.183 --> 00:17:45.532
I haven't really reflected on that piece too much, but I think there's two components to it where even, like taking a step back, one thing, now that I have spent time writing, and I've had full time jobs writing and I've spoken to people, friends of mine who work in various industries, just because as they would say, "it's a job." They're like, "I don't have something that I'd like to do that I can make money doing," so I'm like very grateful for that aspect, like that's not a, guaranteed route or something that a lot of people can plan to do.
00:17:45.532 --> 00:17:47.573
So I'm super grateful for that.
00:17:47.573 --> 00:17:55.428
But going back to performance, there's that, phenomenon where if you smile, then you will be happy according to psychology.
00:17:55.614 --> 00:18:01.125
And I think a lot of people are not naïve and they're just like trying to make the best of it there.
00:18:01.226 --> 00:18:14.336
Like the relation, that's the reason like the relationships you make at work are so valuable, they're like, put into hyperspeed because you've had, a great experience with this person, a horrible experience with this person, all the things that happen at a very fast paced work environment.
00:18:14.446 --> 00:18:22.073
And then obviously if everybody was wearing their emotions on their sleeve in a hectic, fast paced environment, that would not be ideal for anyone.
00:18:22.073 --> 00:18:35.185
So I, I was definitely very aware of the term and technique of compartmentalization, where I was not going to be candid about how I felt or how I was doing in the context of the workplace.
00:18:35.185 --> 00:18:43.218
That was what having friends was for, or playing indoor soccer, or going to the gym . That's when you vented about work, but not at work.
00:18:43.817 --> 00:18:49.008
So since leaving tech you've become a bit of a wellness expert, right?
00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:49.930
Yeah.
00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:53.926
It was a, logical stop for now on my writing journey.
00:18:53.926 --> 00:19:14.894
I actually, to quickly take you through it: at first I was writing about tech and like tech culture . I did some work for Motherboard which is the tech section of Vice—shout-out to 404 Media—and I was also doing some like satire that Fortune was trying out, and, doing some like men's culture stuff for Mel magazine.
00:19:15.117 --> 00:19:20.744
And from there I went, eventually got a full time job at Vice covering hip hop and comedy.
00:19:20.826 --> 00:19:24.510
And then from there I worked at Morning Brew as a business reporter.
00:19:24.682 --> 00:19:26.663
That is where I started doing more.
00:19:26.904 --> 00:19:28.904
Health stuff like full time.
00:19:28.904 --> 00:19:31.983
Because luckily my editor was also interested in the space.
00:19:31.983 --> 00:19:38.291
So we would find business excuses to cover health and wellness and fitness stories.
00:19:38.301 --> 00:19:46.082
For example, I think we were one of the first publications to go long on seed oils and that whole fiasco that is still going on today.
00:19:46.144 --> 00:19:58.458
But that started from my time in tech basically, but because of my own personal experience where, you know, I was unhappy, and my outlet was " health" in the sense of exercise as an outlet.
00:19:58.458 --> 00:20:00.768
So I was like playing soccer a couple of times a week.
00:20:00.962 --> 00:20:06.386
I would sometimes, lift before work and then after work or go to, the gym at lunch.
00:20:06.547 --> 00:20:10.298
But I just got super into that space and then there's so much to read about it.
00:20:10.298 --> 00:20:25.118
And there's so many podcasts to get into and… my like grand theory about why it's so popular, especially amongst tech workers, not tech, executives is that it gives you a sense of control over something where it's okay, I can do this.
00:20:25.268 --> 00:20:28.087
And if I spend this amount of time, I can reach this lifting goal.
00:20:28.087 --> 00:20:32.228
If I do this, I will in the short term, you'll feel great.
00:20:32.551 --> 00:20:34.652
You have a good, workout session, you have a good meal.
00:20:34.652 --> 00:20:35.531
And that's a nice feeling.
00:20:35.531 --> 00:20:38.488
And it's in your immediate area and you can control all of that.
00:20:38.571 --> 00:20:48.647
And I think that's the reason it's so popular, especially in, grueling work environments, which is, there's also to say exercise has all of these cognitive and mental health benefits.
00:20:48.647 --> 00:20:51.192
So I don't think it's just for the cope of it all
00:20:52.007 --> 00:20:57.646
So what do you think is motivating the founders and executives that might be different from the rank and file?
00:20:57.656 --> 00:21:02.205
I mean, they're into longevity, self improvement, self optimization stuff too, right?
00:21:03.169 --> 00:21:16.338
The way that I think about it, and the way that it's covered with… you know just Google "Bryan Johnson." Depending on how you spell it, you'll find the Liver King or you'll find the tech CEO who's trying to become an 18 year old boy.
00:21:16.452 --> 00:21:33.948
And the way I think about the CEOs, and all these guys who are doing the very experimental wacky stuff, it’s like, at a car show they show you a concept car that has all these features that will never make it to the base model that you will be able to buy in five years.
00:21:34.053 --> 00:21:41.182
And that's how I think about a lot of this stuff where they're trying things that you know, some of it won't pan out, some of it is already debunked.
00:21:41.336 --> 00:21:46.176
Some of it might be, but it'll be prohibitively expensive to the average person.
00:21:46.351 --> 00:21:50.268
But I think their, kind of motivation seems more existential.
00:21:50.268 --> 00:21:54.137
Technically, if anyone's gonna have the means to live forever, it's them.
00:21:54.280 --> 00:21:55.800
I don't think it's a money problem.
00:21:55.800 --> 00:21:59.351
I don't think there's a guy that you can give enough money that he can make you live forever.
00:21:59.518 --> 00:22:01.688
But I'm happy to be proven wrong.
00:22:01.688 --> 00:22:09.500
But I don't think the average person say who lifts weights and works for Facebook, they're not trying to live until they're 200.
00:22:09.644 --> 00:22:14.387
just trying to, probably get a little stronger and maybe blow off some steam.
00:22:15.338 --> 00:22:24.673
So I want to talk a little bit about the rise of corporate wellness, the kinds of employee wellness incentives that free gym memberships.
00:22:24.838 --> 00:22:36.769
meditation app credits, but also you know, things like unlimited paid time off, or weeks where the whole company shuts down . Have you reported on any of that?
00:22:37.769 --> 00:22:58.638
I haven't, but I think it's very interesting that the packaging matters so much, where if I just came across a flyer on the ground and it was like, here's a meditation app credit for free, I might be willing to try it out, but, I think to some people, if their employer says,"here's a meditation app," you're like,"Whoa, why do you think I need that?
00:22:58.798 --> 00:23:11.821
Or what's going on here?" So I think the things that really improve wellness are the material things of paid time off, and you decide what to do with your time, as opposed to, " We've given you two hours… to meditate.
00:23:12.209 --> 00:23:18.304
The only thing you can do with this is meditate." And they're like "my form of meditation is like going for a run.
00:23:18.354 --> 00:23:30.096
What do you have for that?" And then they're like, "okay, we can offer this credit or we can offer that." So I think it comes down to having options that are the most broad, but like the most accessible where it's… which is PTO.
00:23:30.742 --> 00:23:47.615
You know, what's striking to me about what you're describing is that it requires granting employees a level of freedom and choice that is really in tension with scale and efficiency and optimization.
00:23:47.625 --> 00:23:51.038
It's really hard to let's say secure a bunch of discounts.
00:23:51.183 --> 00:23:57.983
for employees, if you are accommodating all of the different things that anybody might want to do.
00:23:58.227 --> 00:24:03.759
And of course it's easier to just give everybody a debit card, and say, go spend it on whatever you want.
00:24:04.209 --> 00:24:08.828
But that then requires giving people the freedom to make those choices.
00:24:09.669 --> 00:24:10.028
Yeah.
00:24:10.058 --> 00:24:35.717
And I think that reminds me, I've heard of places that basically do that because obviously you can't, or maybe it can be all PTO, but it's not, but other options that places offer is like a wellness stipend where you can buy stuff up to a certain amount, which it could be, a, yoga class or a piece of equipment or, whatever it is, as long as it fits under this large umbrella of what they cover.
00:24:35.717 --> 00:24:57.074
So then that way there is a sense of," please do put this money towards something that is generally good, but we're not going to tell you what it is," because I'm sure you've seen to where when companies offer those perks, where it's a whole marketplace of managed deals that they've made. And my first thought is like,"how much did you pay for this platform?
00:24:57.213 --> 00:24:59.657
When ( a) most people aren't going to use it.
00:24:59.657 --> 00:25:06.191
And (b) if you just gave the money directly to your, employees, you could probably achieve some cost efficiencies."
00:25:06.878 --> 00:25:16.646
I find it very interesting to see the parallels between I mean, I guess this sounds a lot to me like government aid, Do we give people direct cash aid?
00:25:16.656 --> 00:25:23.383
Do we, do we just raise everyone's salaries by a thousand dollars and allow them to go spend the money on whatever makes them well?
00:25:23.506 --> 00:25:33.019
Or do we give everyone a thousand dollar wellness stipend so that we're certain that they're not spending that money on things that might make them unwell.
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:43.655
I think cynically, you can say that putting it in a wellness bucket allows them to say they spent X amount of money on wellness, even if the alternative is more effective.
00:25:43.868 --> 00:25:50.515
I don't know if it's a happy medium, but it's somewhere in between forcing someone to go to yoga class and just adding money to their salary.
00:25:50.603 --> 00:25:54.575
But I think in general, and I wouldn't like it's a, it's an apt comparison.
00:25:54.855 --> 00:25:57.663
Tech people are very fine for the most part.
00:25:57.821 --> 00:26:06.548
But conditioning funds… the more layers of complexity you add to it, then the more cumbersome it is to, have it effectively be used.
00:26:07.137 --> 00:26:09.253
So I want to talk a little bit about your article for the Times.
00:26:09.457 --> 00:26:11.436
What drove you to write it?
00:26:11.624 --> 00:26:15.030
And the timing, right after the election, what, what drove it?
00:26:15.703 --> 00:26:18.547
So the timing was coincidental.
00:26:18.606 --> 00:26:46.194
The piece was actually in edits when, Trump won the election, which I did not lock into DraftKings, I have to say, but it was something where regardless of who won, these kind of more fringy ideas and to zoom out, it was a piece about the wellness space, particularly for men and podcasting often can veer into what is to me like unpalatable politics or far right fringy stuff.
00:26:46.325 --> 00:26:56.938
I was trying to make the point that you can be interested in somewhat fringy ideas in terms of health and wellness, but you should also be aware that is what they are.
00:26:57.077 --> 00:27:09.929
And I made the parallel to treating it like reality TV, where you're listening to it, mostly for entertainment, you shouldn't be taking action on most of what you're hearing, and you absolutely should not be recommending it to other people.
00:27:10.063 --> 00:27:21.150
And I think there's a very unvocal minority because I got a lot of good feedback where people say that they listen to a bunch of these wellness podcasts, but they don't tell anyone about it.
00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:22.670
They don't really do anything about it.
00:27:22.670 --> 00:27:27.332
They're not doing anything crazy with their diet or exercise regimens.
00:27:27.382 --> 00:27:47.664
And the original, headline, if you like search in the archive is"Wellness Should Be Just a Hobby." And it was basically to encourage people to take a beat, because these podcasts have become incredibly popular and there are some people who are probably hearing like Andrew Huberman's voice more than they hear their spouses, like depending on how much they listen.
00:27:47.872 --> 00:27:49.981
And obviously that's going to have some kind of effect.
00:27:49.991 --> 00:27:56.606
So it was a point to be like, you can enjoy it, but now try and keep a, an arms distance before you buy into everything.
00:27:56.818 --> 00:28:03.211
I mean, to, to use a term that's unfortunately become very popular recently, I mean, it's kayfabe.
00:28:03.315 --> 00:28:03.654
Right?
00:28:03.694 --> 00:28:05.174
It's, it's professional wrestling.
00:28:05.174 --> 00:28:07.949
People watching professional wrestling, they know it's fake.
00:28:08.077 --> 00:28:09.528
They're watching it for entertainment.
00:28:09.892 --> 00:28:18.953
How do you think that that kind of entertainment, that the consumption of this kind of wellness entertainment, what kind of impact does it have on the listeners?
00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:23.880
I think there's this idea—many of them, they're so well produced.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:25.079
They sound good.
00:28:25.234 --> 00:28:26.015
They're calming.
00:28:26.055 --> 00:28:44.722
And the way that I think about it is not kayfabe, but it's like, education Lorem Ipsum, where it's playing and it's very pleasant, you're listening to it in the background, and you can make a very solid argument where, you know, even if I don't pick up everything, maybe I will learn something about something by having this on.
00:28:45.202 --> 00:28:52.163
So I think one of the ways when I was discussing the piece with my editor was this idea of like information FOMO.
00:28:52.773 --> 00:29:09.042
Where I might miss out on something if I don't consume all of this content at a regular clip . And I think to be able to, hover above the space or dip in and out depending on when it's interesting to you requires a lot of discretion for the listener.
00:29:09.556 --> 00:29:20.615
It's fascinating hearing you describe this and the parallels that I'm hearing with a lot of management and leadership advice and podcasts and books.
00:29:20.615 --> 00:29:26.175
There is a ton of content out there for how to be a great founder, how to be an effective leader.
00:29:26.961 --> 00:29:27.221
Yeah.
00:29:27.221 --> 00:29:41.364
And it's funny because it seems that the founders that do well and cultivate a place where people want to work their Instagram Reels is just having a company where employees are talking to their friends and people.
00:29:41.473 --> 00:29:44.513
Like it just gets out through the network that's a good place to work.
00:29:44.682 --> 00:30:01.291
They probably aren't cutting reels to be like, this is what you do to have a killer team and et cetera, because that has become such a genre that there's a new genre of like people satirizing that specifically.
00:29:57.336 --> 00:30:11.607
Benjamin: You know, I think a lot their own research." There is a contrarian streak in, I don't know, the mythology of the founder, right?
00:30:12.202 --> 00:30:18.672
And I wonder what the fascination with wellness and self optimization culture in tech.
00:30:18.969 --> 00:30:29.645
I guess I wonder what kinds of implications that do your own research attitude has for how these leaders build the cultures in their companies?
00:30:29.794 --> 00:30:33.273
You know, I see Myers Briggs and, and DISC assessments.
00:30:33.273 --> 00:30:45.115
I see all kinds of management fads, the, the, the manager READMEs that made the rounds a few years ago, all of these things, you know, that are really well-marketed great stories.
00:30:45.327 --> 00:30:56.631
And many of which, I mean, I'm thinking especially of Myers Briggs, which has, has been, pilloried by the scientific establishments over decades, that just don’t, don't hold up to critical scrutiny.
00:30:56.891 --> 00:30:58.590
And I think that's what we're really talking about here, right?
00:30:58.590 --> 00:31:11.030
It's, it's, it's critical scrutiny and the listener's or the viewer's or the reader's ability to actually examine the claims being made and the evidence being made to support them.
00:31:11.346 --> 00:31:13.076
It's one of those things where you can't.
00:31:13.238 --> 00:31:18.752
You'll have a very hard time, convincing someone that they didn't have an experience that they had.
00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:30.644
For example, to give a very specific example, there are a lot of people who have bought into seed oils being bad, and they cut them out and then they feel better and then they're bought in whatever.
00:31:30.694 --> 00:31:40.067
But to put it into management styles… One of the influencers that I spoke to once, he was saying that " None of the stuff that I'm trying to promote is inherently sexy.
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:48.963
So I have to make it sexy." If I told you to go for a run and make sure you sleep enough and make sure you're eating a good amount of vegetables.
00:31:49.153 --> 00:31:53.548
And then before you go to bed, take an egg out of the fridge and just look at it for a while.
00:31:53.617 --> 00:31:54.587
And then put it away.
00:31:54.703 --> 00:32:03.750
And then if you say that, "Oh what really changed my life was looking at this egg," when it's all of the other boring stuff that you know, you should be doing.
00:32:03.931 --> 00:32:19.461
I think that's very often what happens when you see like either a new diet, or a new exercise trend, or a new management style where you can identify the parts that are good and then they've sometimes just added some kind of flourish to update it.
00:32:20.317 --> 00:32:33.972
What advice would you give to a founder, anyone in charge, who sincerely cares about the wellness, the mental health, the physical health of the people who work for them?
00:32:34.915 --> 00:32:56.218
I think it depends on the size of the company, but it's one of those things where if you instill it from the beginning that you can actually approach your boss, even if it's not the founder, but just that bottom-up communication is allowed when it's not necessarily work related, incentivizing people with direct reports to check on how their people are doing.
00:32:56.315 --> 00:33:06.076
Because obviously not just for out of the graciousness of their hearts, but that's how you know that people won't leave and that people will perform is to make sure that they're doing okay.
00:33:06.259 --> 00:33:21.170
I think it's very hard when people have installed one culture and then they find something is wrong and then all of a sudden you have a lurking founder asking people how they're doing, and they're like, "Oh, wait, am I going to be fired? Or what's going on here?" comes across as very insincere.
00:33:21.170 --> 00:33:34.022
So if it's like something that a founder cares about, whatever you can do to have that in the DNA of the company, as opposed to basically recognizing that if it's not in the DNA of the company, if you try to install it later on, it will seem like a reaction.
00:33:34.746 --> 00:33:43.282
And what does it mean to embed wellness in the DNA of your company for early stage founders who are just building this out?
00:33:43.730 --> 00:34:23.786
I think it's like an intangible of how you speak to people and what kind of conversations are allowed, and I know it's a gray space where some of it is, "Okay we can't talk about everything and how we feel in the context of this marketing planning meeting," but if you create and incentivize and bring in people where that is how they operate, where they have an emotional intelligence, and they have an idea of how they're how other people are doing and working accordingly, because… I'm sure you've had cases where you're working on a team and you know personally that someone is having a hard time because of some personal issue and then everybody just triages the work accordingly.
00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:26.599
This person isn't going to be able to get X amount done.
00:34:26.737 --> 00:34:28.447
So you just fill in the gaps.
00:34:28.653 --> 00:34:33.996
And that's an understood, more of a social agreement than a contractual one.
00:34:34.713 --> 00:34:39.403
And is that idea… I mean, put simply "help each other?"
00:34:40.403 --> 00:34:40.864
Yeah.
00:34:41.003 --> 00:34:41.623
Basically,
00:34:42.623 --> 00:35:07.768
What advice would you give to an employee who is in a company that maybe has that grueling pace that you described from your first job in tech, maybe doesn't have the ability to leave that job right now, doesn't have a plan or even an idea for what their, what their plan to get out is, but who still wants to protect their own mental health, even while they're discovering that plan for the first time?
00:35:08.632 --> 00:35:23.382
I would, look up the serenity prayer and put that into their own words, but actually try and figure out what you can actually change in the short term, and what you can't change, how can you make peace with, realizing that's something that you may or may not have to do.
00:35:23.525 --> 00:35:29.275
And if that's like untenable, then you might have to come up with a different plan for staying or leaving.
00:35:29.777 --> 00:35:31.878
Ashwin, this has been such a pleasure.
00:35:32.123 --> 00:35:34.313
Where can people find you on the internet?
00:35:34.985 --> 00:35:41.860
The best place is probably my website, which is just ashwinrodrigues.com, which has links to all of my work.
00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:46.893
And if anyone is on blue sky, I'm on there as ashwinrodrigues.com.
00:35:47.670 --> 00:35:48.199
Thank you.
00:35:48.304 --> 00:35:52.233
Before I let you go, is there anything you haven't had a chance to share and think we should know?
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:53.570
I don't think so.
00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:54.550
This has been great.
00:35:54.608 --> 00:35:59.628
You've unlocked a lot of memories that I haven't thought about for a long time, but I really enjoyed this conversation.
00:36:01.231 --> 00:36:01.920
I did too.
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:03.561
I'm sure our listeners will as well.
00:36:04.121 --> 00:36:05.161
Thank you so much.
00:36:05.161 --> 00:36:05.550
Take care.
00:36:05.628 --> 00:36:06.099
Thanks, Ben.
00:36:06.409 --> 00:36:06.579
See ya.
00:36:08.108 --> 00:36:12.807
Work Face is produced by Hear Me Out, a culture strategy firm for leaders with the courage to listen.
00:36:13.338 --> 00:36:15.867
Our consulting producer is Lina Misitzis.
00:36:16.172 --> 00:36:18.882
Original music composed by me, Ben Jackson.
00:36:19.282 --> 00:36:21.793
Special thanks to Rob McRae and Michelle Mattar.
00:36:22.253 --> 00:36:31.532
To learn more about Hear Me Out, visit hearmeout.co, follow us on Instagram at @hearmeout_co, or find us on LinkedIn by searching for Hear Me Out.
