Sunday Conversation: Al Milgrom, Pt.2

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Hi everybody, welcome back. Time again for Word Balloon, the
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comic book conversation show. John Sutris here with the final
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two chapters of my conversation with Al Milgram. We did
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this last year before Terrificon, and it was great. It
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was on the phone, but Al had a ton of stories,
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so many that it took us two or three days
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to get through them all. But I gave you parts
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one and two that I combined into one Sunday conversation.
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Today you get the other two parts of this wonderful conversation.
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Al Milgram on today's word balloon. Coming soon, a new
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documentary from the people who brought you The Legend of
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Kingdom Come. Bill Sienkiewicz, that Polish guy, examines the remarkable life,
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groundbreaking career, and dazzling artwork of one of comics' most
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influential creators. Featuring observations from luminaries like Jim Lee, Kevin Smith,
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Dennis Cowan, and many others. Coming soon, Bill Sienkiewicz, That
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Polish Guy. If you like Word Balloon and want to
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support the conversation, join the League of Word Balloon listeners today. Patreon.com
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slash Word Balloon. For just three bucks a month, you
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get access to the monthly Word Balloon digital magazine, where
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I'll give you interviews, transcripts, plus the Word Balloon book club,
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Brian Bennis and myself, with the League, we all get
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together on a Zoom call to talk about a graphic novel.
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Your support helps keep Word Balloon independent and brings you
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even closer to the conversation. Join us today, patreon.com slash wordballoon.
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Thank you for your support, League of Word Balloon listeners. Okay,
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we pick things up mid-conversation with Al Milgram. We were
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just talking about Wally Wood, and I misunderstood. I thought
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he had said that Wally was a poor anchor, not
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remembering that earlier in the conversation he gushed about what
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kind of detail Wood would put into his inks. So
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you'll forgive my senior moment, but let's continue with this
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talk with Al Milgram right now on Ward Balloon.
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Oh, I thought you said Woody wasn't a good inker.
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Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He
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was a good. Yeah, you must have. He was a
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spectacular inker.
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Yeah.
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You know, but he was not above swiping. And I
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just chastised Buckler for swiping. But Woody swiped like nobody's business.
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And Larry Hama, who we know is a brilliant writer
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and a very good artist also. Yeah. And a terrific
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storyteller in his drawing. Agreed. He put together this famous
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or infamous list. He put together a page of 22
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panels that always work. Yes. And he put together... It's
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all Wally Wood stuff. And it shows... it's, it's a close,
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it's a closeup, but two, two headshots, uh, you know,
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a head facing ahead, a silhouette, you know, or a,
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or a figure framed in a window, uh, in a
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window frame or, uh, a vignette panel where there's no,
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there's no panel border, but it's a figure like a
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dot three, a bit of a three quarters down shot
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of the figure just standing there often with Woody, they'd
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be casting a shadow, but no, no, uh, border around it. Um,
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To show depth, there'd be somebody in the foreground with
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blacks being shadows across them. And then in the middle ground,
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there'd be somebody coming out of a door, and they'd
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be sort of almost a white figure framed in the
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black doorway. And then there'd be a third level in
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the farther distance. And you look at them. Oh, another
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one is like hand pointing in from off panel. So
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you'd have a big hand in the foreground pointing to...
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whatever the subject was a figure, an object, whatever. Um, and, and, uh,
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and there are 22 of them, 22 panels that always work.
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And by God, they did always work. They were, they
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were terrific, you know, little shortcuts to storytelling that you,
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you know, if you ever, if you ever got stuck,
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you go to that, you go to that sheet and
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you take one. I'll do this one. That'll work.
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Um, so, uh, No, thank God for social media, because
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I've seen those things on Twitter and Facebook a million
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times in the last 20 years.
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I know. I had a photocopy of it somewhere, Ron, many,
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many years ago. Now it's sunk into the morass that
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is my house. But, yeah.
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Boy, you know, getting back to the subject, I went
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to work for Murphy. We, you know, Charlene and I
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went out to Buckler's Place. We came in, we spent
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the weekend to get this man thing job done. And
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Starlin was drawing pages and Buckler was laying out pages
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that I was tightening up. And I don't remember how
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many I actually worked on. But as we were leaving,
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Rich came to the door. He says, well, gosh, you
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guys really saved me, you know, saved my ass. And,
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you know, what can I do to repay you?
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How can I, you know, how can I? We turned
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the favor and Starlin said, hey, sometime when I'm, you know,
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when I'm behind the, you know, the eighth ball on
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a deadline, you can help me out. And Rich said, oh, OK. So,
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you know, Jim didn't even charge him for, you know,
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like for the work he did. And I said, yeah,
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he just did it as a favor. And and I said, well, listen, Rich,
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you know, just pay me my five bucks a page.
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That was our working arrangement. And, you know, and, you know,
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I don't remember how many it was. He, you know,
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whatever I had done on the K's are he still
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hadn't paid me for yet. So I said, just add
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that to my total. And it came to, like, I
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think I said, a total of 12 pages between that
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and the K's are. So he owed me 60 bucks.
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And and I said, listen, Rich. You know, Murphy Anderson
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offered me a job to work as his background guy,
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and I'm going to take it. And he looked at
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me like a guest. And he said, well, you know, why?
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Why would you do that? And I said, well, look,
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I've been working for you like for two months now.
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We've only done 12 pages together. I haven't gotten paid
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for any of them yet. Oh, well, I got a voucher.
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I said, yeah, yeah, okay. And I said, so, you know,
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Jim did you a favor. You and I have a
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working agreement. So just, you know, you'll just pay me,
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but I'm going to go to work And he said
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he had the gall to say to me, well, but
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I can teach you a lot more than Murphy Anderson. And,
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you know, Rich had been in the business for all
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of six months now. And here's Murphy Anderson, a very solid,
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well-established pro. And I kind of looked at him like,
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are you mental? But what I said was, well, you know,
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maybe you could. But, you know, I know with him,
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I'll be getting steady work. And so, so he, I
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think he was, you know, he was probably upset at
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the notion of not having to do the work himself. Um,
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and I, and, and I did, I went, I went
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to the, there was a sulling con, uh, in the
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city and it was must've been, I guess, in July
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of 72. And, uh, and after the, uh, holiday weekend,
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I went, I went over to, uh, DC and I, I'm,
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I'm sure I must've called first. And I said, Hey, look, um,
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You know, I think I'm going to take you up
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on your offer, Murphy, and come work for you. He says, great.
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So I just come in on the next working day,
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and I went into D.C. I was living on Staten
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Island at the time with Starlin and Steve Skates, the writer,
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and Bill DeBay, the guy who was Buckler's other assistant
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at the time, but he was the editor at Warren Publications.
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And I was replacing Mike Friedrich, who had been, you know,
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who had just gotten a toehold in the industry and
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hated New York. He was from California and he wanted
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to go back out west. And he said, well, I'm
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established now. I'm just going to go back home and
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work through the mails. And so it was a four
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bedroom arrangement. Some guy had built four bedrooms over his
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garage on Staten Island. So I replaced Friedrich in that
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cadre and I reported for work at D.C. And I
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sat down next to Murphy. I brought some, you know,
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my art supplies with me and he opened up his
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attache case and pulled out a bunch of Kurt Swan
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Superman pages and handed a bunch of them over to
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me and said, OK, get to work. And I went, oh,
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I'm an ominous. And he said, before you start, Alan,
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I just want to tell you the two rules of inking.
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I said, okay, whoa, good, good. I need some instruction.
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He says, number one, we're paid to ink, not think.
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And number two, when in doubt, black it out. And
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I said, wait a minute, let me write these down.
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I didn't. So I thought that was funny, you know,
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because of course, Well, first of all, there was never
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a more thoughtful inker than Murphy. He overthought, if anything,
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everything on the page. And he did this beautiful, meticulous rendering,
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which somehow managed to make everybody look good. He was
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his own version of Wally Wood. We mentioned the various
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people that he was known for inking at that period.
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you know, Gil and Carmine and Bernie, I mean, Mike Sikowsky.
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And he was doing, inking some Irv Novick on Batman
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at the time also.
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Okay.
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And everything was... he got done with it, it looked great.
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And it had like, you know, it looked more dimensional
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because his approach to rendering, he would go around the form.
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It was, you know, very beautiful. Um, as opposed to,
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I think Joe Giella, who rendered sort of with the
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form instead of around the form, um, Uh, I always thought,
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I thought that Joe was a terrific anchor, but his stuff,
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I thought tended to look a little flatter than, uh,
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Murphy's did. Um, but he was certainly, uh, you know,
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and he was very much in the, in the DC
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house style was yellow and Murphy too, to a certain extent,
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you know, they had, um, um, they had, uh, those
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two guys, they had Bernie Sachs, they had Frank Giaquoia, uh,
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He and Giela often did a lot of work together
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because Frank always needed a crutch. He needed somebody to
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lean on to get any work done. Later, he worked
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a lot with Esposito. They had the Berry brothers at
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one time or another, Seymour and Dan Berry. By then,
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I think they both graduated to syndicated strips. One was
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doing I think Dan was doing Flash Gordon and Cy
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was doing The Phantom. So two of the very biggest
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action syndicated strips. And they did those for many, many
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years and so on. So, yeah. So, you know, and
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Murphy was a great and patient teacher. And and among
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other things, he and I shared a love of puns. So,
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you know, Murphy would say, you know, he'd come in,
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I'd come in, he'd say, hey, Alan, you know, Tarzan,
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you know, he went to the bad place. He died
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and he went to the bad place. And so they
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gave his punishment was, Tarzan, you now have to paint
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stripes on all the wildlife that has the, you know,
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the natural camouflage on the zebras and on the tigers.
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And he says, so, Alan, the moral of the story
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is now Tarzan stripes forever. You know, a play on
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stars and stripes forever, the military. So, you know, and
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I just would, you know, and I'd go, oh, Murphy,
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you know. And then I'd try to come up with
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one to, you know, to match him or top him.
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So we had a good time. And as a result,
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now you're speaking to the former editorial. And when I
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go to shows these days, I had T-shirts made up
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where it reads conventional. And I'm also very whimsical and
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sometimes comical. And when I look at a portfolio for
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a kid, I'm sometimes very critical. Fantastic, man. That's hilarious. Yeah,
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my name lends itself to a wide assortment of horrifying puns.
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Honestly, these little annoying stories were great, but I wanted
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to ask you about Jim Shooter as a writer. because
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you worked on Korvac. And did you edit Jim as
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well before he became, or even while he was editor-in-chief?
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Were you his editor at times?
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You know, I don't recall ever being his editor, no.
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He was, of course, he was the writer and I
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suppose de facto editor on the second Secret Wars series
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that I penciled.
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Right, that's right, too.
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Yes, indeed. And he was not the editor of record.
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But I believe, for all intents and purposes, he was,
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you know, the be-all and end-all on that thing. I mean,
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he might deny that because, you know, he believed in
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the whole approach of having an editorial staff and having
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an objective editor, you know, overseeing everybody's work, which I
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think is perfectly reasonable. But... But, you know, nobody wanted
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to mess with him. So, you know, so he did that.
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I don't remember being his editor. You know, you can
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prove me wrong. I won't say I wasn't, but I don't,
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you know, I don't have any recollection of it.
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Working with him as a writer and everything, and in
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our capacity then.
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First of all, I thought he was a very good writer,
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a very capable writer. And, you know, the proof of
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the pudding, he started as a professional comic book writer
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at the age of 13 or 14. He sent stories,
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ideas into Mort Weisinger at DC Comics.
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Sure.
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And Weisinger, who I don't know and never met, but,
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you know, thought he had some really good ideas. And Jim,
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at the time, I think he said that Marvel was
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doing much more interesting comic books, but he liked the
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DC stuff because he'd grown up on it. And he
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would send in scripts and they would be... He would
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thumbnail the whole story. He would do drawings to show
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how he was envisioning the storytelling going. And, you know,
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I mean, it's astonishing, you know, that anybody can get
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a job writing comic books as a professional. But somebody
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at that age, it's really, I mean, he was really
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something of a phenom. And I learned actually not too
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long ago before he passed that he also had won
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some sort of art contest or art competition in New York.
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I don't remember what grade it would have been, but
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either middle school or high school, he won some competition,
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which would have entitled him to go to some art
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school there, I guess with a scholarship. But he turned
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it down because his family was not well off. And
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some of the writing he was doing for DC was
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really going to help pay for the family's you know, expenses,
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you know, the house, the food, you know, a car,
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whatever it was. He was everyday life. Yeah. He was
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one of the providers. Yeah. He was, yeah. He may
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have been the main provider, I believe. So, so anyway,
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so he had to turn down, I would have been
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interesting if he, if he'd taken up the art scholarship and,
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and gone to school for, for, for drawing or painting.
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Had you seen any of his art?
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I have seen only stuff that he did. When he
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was at Marvel. Okay. Because occasionally he thought, I've got
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to show everybody what I'm talking about. Because he had
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a lot of fairly strict rules about comic book storytelling.
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Some of which I think were valid and some of
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which I think were less valid. And we butted heads
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on them a number of times. The thing I will
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say about Jim is I found him easy to get
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along with and easy to reason with. I would go
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in there if I thought he was wrong about something,
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I'd go in and discuss it. You know, I never
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went in and said, you know, listen, you giant bonehead,
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you don't know what you're talking about. But I would say, listen, Jim,
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I think that, you know, this approach that you're taking,
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it could be done, you know, you know, it could
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be done this way or this way. And he said, no,
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I'm not saying there's only one way to do something,
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but it has to fulfill these requirements, you know. And yeah,
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but I'm not. But but so he said the right
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thing often. But, you know, in his heart of hearts,
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I don't think he believed that. I believe he thought
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his way was the absolutely right way and maybe the
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only way. And, you know, he had rules about writing,
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about penciling, about inking, probably about lettering and coloring, too.
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And you could discuss it with him and you could
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disagree with him. And he might be reasonable in the
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way he discussed it with you. But then at the
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end of the day, uh, he would snap back into
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his original position. And, uh, so, so, you know, outside of,
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of the, outside of an entertaining little debate for a while, you,
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you might not have made a lot of progress with him.
300
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Um, I'm with you.
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Yeah.
302
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And, uh, funny.
303
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Yeah. I'll, I'll give you, uh, any, but again, I,
304
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it may be because I had been an editor at
305
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DC for, for the year first before he hired me. Uh,
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I think I and Larry Hama, who had also been
307
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an editor up at DC at that same period, and Wheezy,
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who was an editor by this time at Warren Publications. Oh, yeah.
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He hired the three of us, and we all had
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editorial experience. And I think he treated us more as
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equals than the guys who he hired, who came in
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under him for the first time, like, Grunewald and Salatrop
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and who else was up there? I can't keep track. Anyway. Yeah,
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I hear you, man. No, no, no. Was Craig Anderson,
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was he at DC or Marvel with me?
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I think he was there. I couldn't say. No, I
317
00:19:43.470 --> 00:19:46.150
was thinking of a Spider-Man editor, and I can't think
318
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of his name right now.
319
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Well, there was.
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Edward Southrop, obviously, you know, is one of those guys.
321
00:19:52.789 --> 00:19:56.890
Yeah, well, Roger Stern, was he on staff for a
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00:19:56.910 --> 00:20:00.710
while as an editor? I'm not sure. I don't remember.
323
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I feel like he might have been. Yeah, anyway. But
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so I think that gave me more... cachet with Jim
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than some of the guys he hired and were groomed.
326
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Yeah. And I mean groomed in a positive way, not
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the way, unfortunately, the word groomed has changed.
328
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But yeah, he trained his editors.
329
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Yeah, the young people he trained his editors.
330
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Yeah, so I think he felt like they should, having
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been completely instructed and raised by him, should have done it.
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They should have known what he wanted. And I, and I,
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you know, I said, look, Jim, they're not, I think
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he thought, and if it didn't come out the way
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he thought it should, I think he felt like they were,
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they were purposely ignoring him or, or, or defying him.
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And I said, I said, no, Jim, you know, words are,
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words are not a perfect vehicle. You want them to
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be able to read your mind and execute exactly the
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way you would. They're trying, everybody up here is trying
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to do what you want them to do, but there's
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a certain disconnect between what you say and how we
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interpret it. And he said, no, that can't be right.
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I said, well, I think it is. And we'd have
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the discussion and I would get nowhere, but at least
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I had my say. I'll give you an example. I'll
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give you an example of Jim not at his best.
348
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And he was probably at his best early on when
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he was getting all the books back on schedule. which
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was a, you know, Herculean task. And we can talk
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00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:43.269
about that later if you want. But one time we're
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all sitting in some editor's office up at Marvel. And
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I don't know whether I was still on staff or not.
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I probably still was. Or why would I be sitting
355
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around there schmoozing in the middle of the day? So
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instead of home freelancing. So there were several of us
357
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and he... Comes into the, looms into the doorway. And
358
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I say looms because he was a huge man. He
359
00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:16.589
was 6'7. Oh, yeah. And a very intimidating physical presence.
360
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And he's holding a comic book in his hand. And
361
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he's gesturing to it. And he looks at the editor
362
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and he says, hey, so-and-so. And I don't honestly remember
363
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which editor it was. So I'm not trying to save
364
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anybody's feelings here. I just don't remember. And he said,
365
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if you don't know what's wrong with this comic, then
366
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we've got a problem. And everybody's sort of jaws just dropped.
367
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And then he, like a will-o'-the-wisp, he was gone. And
368
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the editor, like all the blood drained out of his face.
369
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Because his boss just came in and, you know, made
370
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this outrageous statement. And I said... You know, I think
371
00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:05.950
I hung around. We chatted a little bit more. I said,
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don't worry, he'll get over it. And I went down
373
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to Jim's office and I said, Jim, have you got
374
00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:13.589
a minute? And he said, yeah, sure, Al, what's up?
375
00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:17.380
I said, listen, I just want to explain something to you.
376
00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:20.940
I said, first of all, you are a big guy.
377
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.579
You're aware of this, you know? He says, yeah. He says,
378
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I said, when you come into somebody's office and we're
379
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all sitting and you're standing there, all six foot seven
380
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of you, and you're clearly not happy. I said, it's
381
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a chilling tone that you're setting right there. I said,
382
00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:40.349
and when you point at a comic and you say,
383
00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:43.069
if you don't see what's wrong with this, we've got
384
00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:46.150
a problem. So there's two options there. Neither one is
385
00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:49.769
good for the editor. Either you know what's wrong with it,
386
00:23:50.099 --> 00:23:53.660
but you'll let it get printed anyway, which that means
387
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:57.000
you're just defying you. You know, he's defying you. Or
388
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.539
you don't know what's wrong with it, in which case,
389
00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:03.289
why did he hire you? If you're such an idiot,
390
00:24:03.309 --> 00:24:07.509
you can't follow his, you know, his edicts. Right. I said, it's,
391
00:24:07.650 --> 00:24:09.670
it's like, it's like, you know, did you stop beating
392
00:24:09.690 --> 00:24:12.849
your wife yet? You know, if you answered, yeah, it
393
00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:14.630
means you used to beat her. If you answer, no,
394
00:24:14.670 --> 00:24:16.470
you're still beating her. It's, you can't, it's a no
395
00:24:16.490 --> 00:24:21.130
win question and answer. So I said, I said, try
396
00:24:21.170 --> 00:24:23.509
to be a little more diplomatic. And, and I said,
397
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and don't, you know, and don't do it in front
398
00:24:25.609 --> 00:24:28.950
of four other guys, you know, have the guy come
399
00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:31.920
down to your office and, I've seen you do it,
400
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:36.160
discuss it rationally, say, look, I'm not happy with this issue,
401
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.480
and here's why. And, you know, give the guy a
402
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:44.099
chance to understand what you're looking for, why it's wrong, and,
403
00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:46.359
you know, and I'm sure he'll be happy to try
404
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.559
and correct it in future issues. You know, this one's published.
405
00:24:49.779 --> 00:24:51.440
It's too late. You know, there's nothing you can do
406
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.430
about it. And he said, you know, Al, you've got
407
00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:57.150
a good point. I really, I shouldn't have phrased it
408
00:24:57.190 --> 00:24:59.529
that way. And I said, you know, I said, I said, yeah, listen,
409
00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:03.269
just everybody's on your side here. Just, uh, you know, just, uh,
410
00:25:03.329 --> 00:25:07.250
just try to couch it in more, uh, gentle phrasing,
411
00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:09.430
you know, that kind of thing. And he, you know,
412
00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:12.309
he said, yeah, good, you know, good point. Thanks, Al. Uh,
413
00:25:12.369 --> 00:25:14.130
you know, I'm not sure it made a difference. I'm
414
00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:17.920
not sure it changed them one iota, but he, you know,
415
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.480
he accepted it in, in good graces and, uh, and, uh,
416
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:23.799
you know, and he took it as a sincere, uh,
417
00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:28.670
you know, uh, point of view you know hey you
418
00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:30.730
can you can do the job you don't have to
419
00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:33.490
bully everybody you can just hey guys we're all on
420
00:25:33.509 --> 00:25:36.430
the same team here so anyway so that was one
421
00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:42.089
of my shooter stories I have I have others I
422
00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:45.849
at one point I was I was on staff and
423
00:25:45.869 --> 00:25:50.109
I was doing still doing an inordinate amount of freelance
424
00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:53.569
while I was an editor so there I am at
425
00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:58.349
the office 40 hours a week give or take And evenings, weekends,
426
00:25:58.410 --> 00:26:03.049
and holidays, I'm still freelancing my brains out. And one
427
00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:06.269
of the things I did as an editor was I
428
00:26:06.549 --> 00:26:09.009
started doing a lot of the covers for the titles
429
00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:13.529
I was editing. I mean, I was a cover artist
430
00:26:13.589 --> 00:26:17.339
for Marvel. And I had been briefly a cover artist
431
00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:20.359
over at DC, and then DC hired me as an
432
00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:24.869
editor for almost exactly one year. prior to the DC
433
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:27.349
implosion when, where they, you know, booted me right back
434
00:26:27.430 --> 00:26:31.009
out the door along with Larry Hama and, and 40%
435
00:26:31.009 --> 00:26:35.289
of their entire staff. So now, you know, Jim hired
436
00:26:35.390 --> 00:26:38.799
me and Larry to, to, you know, come work as
437
00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:42.440
editors at Marvel. And I was still freelancing my brains out.
438
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.559
And one of the things I did was a lot
439
00:26:45.579 --> 00:26:49.059
of covers for my own books. And one day Hama
440
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:52.180
came up and to me in my office, he was
441
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.250
right next door. He said, Al, you know, you shouldn't
442
00:26:54.269 --> 00:26:58.569
be doing covers for your own books. And I said, uh,
443
00:26:58.650 --> 00:27:00.930
why do you say that, Larry? He says, well, it's
444
00:27:00.970 --> 00:27:06.750
a conflict of interest. And I said, well, Hmm. He says, yeah,
445
00:27:06.769 --> 00:27:09.690
cause you got nobody, you know, supervising you, you, you know, you're,
446
00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:12.670
you're doing the covers, you're accepting the covers. Nobody has
447
00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:15.680
any say over it. And I said, well, yeah, but
448
00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:17.319
I think I do pretty good covers. He goes, yeah,
449
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:19.559
you do pretty good covers, but, but you know, you
450
00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:23.200
should really, you know, you should really have, uh, you know,
451
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.250
a supervisor or something. And I, I thought about it
452
00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:30.809
and I said, well, I don't necessarily agree, but you know,
453
00:27:31.470 --> 00:27:33.849
I'm going to go, uh, take it up with Shooter.
454
00:27:33.869 --> 00:27:36.509
So I went down to his office and I said, Jim,
455
00:27:36.549 --> 00:27:38.349
I was just talking to Larry Hama and he said,
456
00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:41.410
I shouldn't do covers for my own books. And he said,
457
00:27:41.470 --> 00:27:43.410
why wouldn't you? And I said, well, that was sort
458
00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:46.650
of my position. Uh, you know, but Larry said he
459
00:27:46.690 --> 00:27:48.819
thought it was sort of a conflict of interest. And, uh,
460
00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:53.579
And nobody was supervising me. So I thought I'd, you know,
461
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.210
being an honest, straightforward kind of guy, I thought I'd
462
00:27:57.230 --> 00:27:59.950
mention it to you and see what you thought. He goes, well,
463
00:28:00.150 --> 00:28:03.150
he has a point. He says, I think you've been
464
00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:06.210
doing terrific covers for us. And, you know, and I
465
00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:09.369
want you to continue because we think it's a selling point,
466
00:28:09.730 --> 00:28:12.079
you know. But I'll tell you what, from now on,
467
00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:16.980
before you do a cover, bring the cover sketch down
468
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.509
to me. And I will act as, you know, your
469
00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:22.509
de facto editor and I'll approve it or reject it
470
00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:26.660
as I see fit. And I said, OK, great. And
471
00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559
I thought there was a perfectly reasonable solution. And then
472
00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:32.480
I could go back and tell Larry in your face.
473
00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:39.420
And I did. And I said, OK, Larry, now Shooter
474
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.829
is going to supervise my coverage. OK, good. So he
475
00:28:42.849 --> 00:28:44.690
didn't really care one way or the other, Larry. I
476
00:28:44.730 --> 00:28:47.829
think he was just stirring the pot. But then from
477
00:28:47.869 --> 00:28:50.089
then on, I would go down and I'd show Jim
478
00:28:50.130 --> 00:28:54.650
my cover sketches. And often, I mean, I was doing
479
00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:59.089
a lot of work. And even in those days of
480
00:28:59.130 --> 00:29:02.670
my youth when I had a lot of energy, I
481
00:29:03.970 --> 00:29:08.130
couldn't keep up with all of it. And so sometimes
482
00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:12.460
I would do my cover sketch on the actual cover stock.
483
00:29:13.369 --> 00:29:15.869
Rather than, you know, Marvel had like smaller sheets of
484
00:29:15.930 --> 00:29:20.069
paper with the border and the cover layout on it,
485
00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:22.240
you know. And, you know, there'd be a place where
486
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.680
the UPC box would go and so on and so forth.
487
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.880
Maybe they also had the, you know, the little like
488
00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:32.960
a blank corner box in the upper left-hand corner with
489
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.940
that Marvel Comics group across the top. So they had
490
00:29:36.009 --> 00:29:42.089
these little, uh, you know, bond paper, uh, uh, layout available.
491
00:29:42.970 --> 00:29:45.269
And I would often, I would do my cover sketches
492
00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:49.150
on those. Okay. And then I'd either, depending on my mood,
493
00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:51.549
I'd either eyeball them or I, I had a, an
494
00:29:51.609 --> 00:29:57.099
opaque projector. Uh, brand name was artograph art. Oh, graph. And, um,
495
00:29:58.250 --> 00:30:01.009
And I could just trace them off onto the board.
496
00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:04.349
But I really, I always felt like I lost something
497
00:30:04.390 --> 00:30:09.369
in the process when I was lightboxing something or using
498
00:30:10.009 --> 00:30:14.210
the opaque projector. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you know, you
499
00:30:14.230 --> 00:30:16.170
could trace it off line for line and somehow it
500
00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:18.970
would lose a little of the spontaneity or something. I
501
00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:24.160
don't know. So I started doing my cover sketches on
502
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:29.279
the boards and, you know, To different degrees of how tight.
503
00:30:29.339 --> 00:30:32.859
Maybe it was just a layout where you could see
504
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.140
where the figures were going to go. Sometimes it would
505
00:30:35.180 --> 00:30:38.519
be tighter than that. I tend to do gesture drawings.
506
00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:42.500
And so sometimes I'll do a more complete figure and
507
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.529
background and stuff like that. And so they would pay
508
00:30:47.609 --> 00:30:50.769
us $ 50 for a cover sketch. So if I did
509
00:30:50.809 --> 00:30:53.930
it on the actual board, I could save myself a
510
00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:57.910
step and still pay myself the extra $ 50. I never
511
00:30:57.990 --> 00:31:01.690
pointed that out to Jim. And I would take him
512
00:31:01.710 --> 00:31:04.009
down to the shooter, and I'd say, Jim, here's a
513
00:31:04.029 --> 00:31:06.210
layout for the Hulk cover. Here's a layout for the
514
00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:09.819
Defenders cover. And they look great. I'll go ahead. I
515
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:14.380
don't think he ever questioned or rejected a single one
516
00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:16.779
of those that I did for him. And so in
517
00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:20.019
that respect, I found him extremely easy to work with
518
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.450
because he was approving everything I did, which is the
519
00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:27.500
way I like it. Yeah. That's something John, that's something
520
00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:29.349
John Byrne and I have in common. You know, we
521
00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:32.509
don't want, we want everybody to say, great, keep it up,
522
00:31:32.609 --> 00:31:35.809
you know, and then leave us and leave me alone. So, um,
523
00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:38.529
so yeah, so we would do that.
524
00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:39.210
Yeah.
525
00:31:39.289 --> 00:31:43.099
Yeah. And, uh, great. Yeah. So I, I like that. And,
526
00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.420
and of course the reason I ended up drawing secret
527
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.000
wars too, God knows, uh, that was a hard act
528
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:54.190
to follow, uh, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, beautiful, beautiful work.
529
00:31:54.349 --> 00:31:58.519
And he did the first series, obviously. Well, they decided
530
00:31:58.539 --> 00:32:00.579
it was a big hit. They decided to do another one.
531
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:08.539
And Sal Buscema did the first issue. And I can't
532
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:12.569
remember if he did full pencils or just breakdowns. And
533
00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:16.569
for those who don't know, full pencils are nice, tight pencils.
534
00:32:16.630 --> 00:32:19.170
You could, if you ink them just exactly as they were,
535
00:32:19.869 --> 00:32:24.490
you'd have a nice, you know, professional comic book. Breakdowns
536
00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:30.289
are basically the coloring book version of full pencils. Everything
537
00:32:30.309 --> 00:32:34.430
would be outlined, but there wouldn't necessarily be any rendering,
538
00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:38.390
like no feathering with a brush, no cross hatching, and
539
00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:43.250
not necessarily any spotting of black areas. You could put, yeah,
540
00:32:43.269 --> 00:32:45.539
the shortcut in comics is if you put an X
541
00:32:46.170 --> 00:32:48.339
in the middle of an area, then that area should
542
00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:51.789
be black. blacked in and all the anchors, all the
543
00:32:51.849 --> 00:32:55.549
anchors know that is the, you know, is the, is
544
00:32:55.589 --> 00:32:56.809
the shorthand for, you.
545
00:32:56.730 --> 00:32:57.750
Know, exactly.
546
00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:04.069
Yeah. So, so I will say this, Sal did a
547
00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:09.019
perfectly fine job. It was a really nice Sal Biasema job,
548
00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:14.339
but Jim somehow found fault with it. And I think
549
00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:17.799
he wanted some changes. And I think Sal said, well,
550
00:33:18.089 --> 00:33:19.910
you know, I'm too old to be, you know, having
551
00:33:19.930 --> 00:33:23.690
to redraw stuff or, or words to that effect. I was,
552
00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:27.849
I don't ask him sometimes, but, uh, um, while I
553
00:33:27.869 --> 00:33:30.450
still can. And, uh, yeah, you know, but, but it
554
00:33:30.490 --> 00:33:34.839
was a perfectly fine job and, and honestly better than
555
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.180
what I ended up doing. Uh, I am not as
556
00:33:37.220 --> 00:33:40.980
good an artist as Sal Buscema and I never will be, but, um,
557
00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:44.220
but Jim was not pleased with the job and he wasn't,
558
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.440
I think, pleased with Sal's response and, when he wanted, uh,
559
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.549
changes or corrections, if you will. And, uh, and we were,
560
00:33:51.630 --> 00:33:54.410
I remember this because we were at the Marvel Christmas party,
561
00:33:54.890 --> 00:33:57.490
which was at the players club, which is a, which
562
00:33:57.549 --> 00:34:02.789
is a club for actors actually in Greenwich, uh, um,
563
00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:08.110
not Greenwich village. Wait a minute. Um, Oh, it's a
564
00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:13.599
park off of, uh, third and park Avenue. What the
565
00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:18.219
hell is the name of that? Gramercy park, Gramercy park. Yes. Okay.
566
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:23.659
It's got this nice little one block square park where
567
00:34:24.019 --> 00:34:26.610
only people from the neighborhood, they have to pay a
568
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.659
fee and they can get a key to get into the,
569
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.909
you know, it's locked, this park. And you can't go
570
00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:35.610
on the grass in this park. It's, you know, they
571
00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:37.610
got a low fence that you're supposed to keep off it.
572
00:34:37.889 --> 00:34:41.789
So it's not a park in any reasonable sense of
573
00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:44.829
the word, but the rich people who live around there
574
00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:50.769
like it. having it and it's fairly exclusive and so on.
575
00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:52.429
It's not a good place to take little kids to
576
00:34:52.469 --> 00:34:56.010
play because they can only play on the concrete areas
577
00:34:56.050 --> 00:35:00.309
where you'll fall and skin your knees. Anyway, it's right
578
00:35:00.530 --> 00:35:05.440
off of Gramercy Park, the Players Club, and it faces it.
579
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.940
It's for actors. I guess the idea was it was
580
00:35:09.980 --> 00:35:13.920
for actors who were traveling in from out of town
581
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.880
And that gave them a place to stay if they
582
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:20.699
needed one, if they were doing a short stint or
583
00:35:20.739 --> 00:35:23.320
if they were on Broadway, you know, blah, blah, blah.
584
00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:27.320
And it's a charming old brownstone, and it's full of
585
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:31.019
portraits of famous actors. And some of the portraits are
586
00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:37.889
by James Montgomery Flagg. Yes, great artist. Amazing artist, yes. Yeah,
587
00:35:37.929 --> 00:35:41.769
terrific old-time illustrator. Did the portrait of Uncle Sam, Once You.
588
00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:49.760
Among others. And who was the other guy? Oh, I
589
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:53.059
think he had one there. And who else? Oh, he
590
00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:54.739
used to... Everett Raymond Kinstler.
591
00:35:55.820 --> 00:35:56.239
Oh, sure.
592
00:35:56.260 --> 00:35:57.840
Great pulp artist.
593
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:05.030
Absolutely. He also did comic book work. He drew a
594
00:36:05.219 --> 00:36:09.989
lot of stories and covers and inside title pages for
595
00:36:10.110 --> 00:36:15.119
Avon Comics and others. And beautiful stuff, beautiful fine line,
596
00:36:16.659 --> 00:36:19.199
you know, rendering with good use of blacks. I mean,
597
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.219
you know, could you tell from that he was going
598
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.260
to go on to become the preeminent portrait artist in
599
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.849
the country? Maybe.
600
00:36:27.909 --> 00:36:33.170
He did Gerald Ford's official portrait for the White House.
601
00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:35.510
Is that right? Yeah. Yes.
602
00:36:35.929 --> 00:36:38.210
You know why I know that? Because the shadow scrapbook
603
00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:41.559
showed examples of his work in the shadow pulps. and
604
00:36:41.579 --> 00:36:44.500
then had a modern picture of him painting Gerald Ford,
605
00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:45.300
which was amazing.
606
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:48.900
Ah, there you go. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah.
607
00:36:49.500 --> 00:36:51.320
So forgive me, Al. I don't mean to bash you
608
00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:52.119
on your story.
609
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:57.679
No, no, that's fine. He's a wonderful painter and illustrator,
610
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.519
and apparently he was never embarrassed by the fact that
611
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.139
he had drawn comic books. Some guys are. I get it, man.
612
00:37:05.179 --> 00:37:06.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
613
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:10.519
Yeah. I think... I think, who is that great EC
614
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:16.760
artist who did the Master Race story? Bernie Krigstein. Okay. Really?
615
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:18.159
Bernie was embarrassed?
616
00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:24.739
Yeah. Yeah, he was embarrassed to have ever done comic books. Wow. Wow.
617
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:27.230
Tell me what happened at the Christmas party at the
618
00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:27.750
Players Club.
619
00:37:28.110 --> 00:37:32.949
Okay, so I was talking to Jim, and I just casually,
620
00:37:32.969 --> 00:37:35.750
you know, and I, and, you know, Jim had a
621
00:37:35.789 --> 00:37:40.070
reputation of, if you worked with him on a job,
622
00:37:42.610 --> 00:37:45.239
he would suddenly find faults in your work that he
623
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:51.079
had never noticed before. And it could be detrimental to
624
00:37:51.099 --> 00:37:55.199
your career. Because, you know, you went from being, hey,
625
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.579
that guy's great, to, I don't understand, what kind of
626
00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:02.260
storytelling is this? Doesn't he understand what I'm trying to
627
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.360
get across? You know, that kind of thing. So it
628
00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:08.739
could become a negative. And and we were and I thought,
629
00:38:09.139 --> 00:38:11.940
you know, because I was I was cocky in those
630
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.920
days and somewhat. And I said, you know, Jim, you
631
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:18.880
and I never did a job together. I'd like to
632
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:21.639
do it because I'm curious to see, you know, whether
633
00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:26.539
I could fulfill your, you know, your your your tenants,
634
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:29.809
you know, your for how you want stuff done. And
635
00:38:29.829 --> 00:38:32.050
I said, and we get along, so I'm sure we
636
00:38:32.070 --> 00:38:35.550
could do it without any animosity. And he said, you know, no, Al,
637
00:38:35.610 --> 00:38:38.679
we'd be great together. I said, okay, good. So, and
638
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:42.099
he said, you know, come to think of it, I'm
639
00:38:42.139 --> 00:38:45.960
looking for an artist to take over the new Secret
640
00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:49.920
Wars series. And I said, really? And I knew it
641
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:53.760
was a, the first one had been a great seller. Yeah. And,
642
00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:56.300
you know, because of course it became like the linchpin
643
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:59.380
of the company that because they had crossovers of every
644
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:04.079
other title that linked into that series. And I said, wow.
645
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.760
I said, but I thought Sal was doing that. He says, well,
646
00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:10.219
you know, Sal did the first issue. I'm really not
647
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:14.170
happy with it. We paid him for it, but, and
648
00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:15.929
I don't want you to get screwed out of first
649
00:39:16.010 --> 00:39:20.369
issue royalties or incentives payments is, you know, what they
650
00:39:20.409 --> 00:39:24.460
call it. And he says, so I would, if you're interested,
651
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:30.400
I'm going to, we can work on that series together
652
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:33.639
and I'm going to have you redraw the first issue
653
00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:38.139
from scratch. And, you know, just because he didn't want
654
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.449
me to lose out on the royalties, which was a
655
00:39:40.489 --> 00:39:44.909
very nice gesture on his part. But listen, I adore
656
00:39:44.949 --> 00:39:47.550
Sal and his work and I didn't want him to
657
00:39:47.590 --> 00:39:49.929
get screwed because And he said, no, no, don't worry.
658
00:39:49.949 --> 00:39:52.349
You know, well, Sal's taken care of. And he was,
659
00:39:52.409 --> 00:39:55.570
you know, under contract to Marvel, making a very nice
660
00:39:55.659 --> 00:39:59.800
living at the time, and as was his brother. And
661
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.699
so I said, OK, you know, great. So he's, you know, now,
662
00:40:03.739 --> 00:40:07.760
of course, we've already lost a month lead time because
663
00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:10.369
Sal had drawn the first issue. So now I had
664
00:40:10.389 --> 00:40:11.989
to start it all over again. And I kind of
665
00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:13.510
leafed through it. I didn't want to look at it
666
00:40:13.550 --> 00:40:18.730
too closely because I didn't want to be influenced. especially
667
00:40:18.769 --> 00:40:23.900
since Jim wasn't happy with it. Yeah, yeah. But I
668
00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:27.900
then proceeded to draw the entire series under very, very
669
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:34.420
strenuous deadline conditions. And they got Steve Lealoha to finish
670
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.059
my breakdowns. There's no way I could have done nice
671
00:40:38.099 --> 00:40:43.389
tight pencils for it. And Steve is a terrific artist
672
00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:47.300
and inker. And he did yeoman service on it. And, uh,
673
00:40:47.429 --> 00:40:50.690
you know, it, I thought my storytelling was good, but
674
00:40:50.849 --> 00:40:54.010
it certainly didn't, you know, didn't hold up, uh, by
675
00:40:54.070 --> 00:40:58.809
any stretch to, uh, to, uh, uh, Mike Zek's, uh,
676
00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:02.139
stint on the first one. And I really thought Sal
677
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:06.179
did a perfectly fine job and it would have ultimately
678
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:11.500
looked better than, uh, than what I ended up doing. And, uh, I,
679
00:41:11.659 --> 00:41:14.969
and I, that's unfortunate, but I weathered the storm. I
680
00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:18.849
worked with Shooter. We got along great. Apparently, I misdrew
681
00:41:18.909 --> 00:41:21.429
something in one issue. He says, oh, yeah, this character,
682
00:41:21.449 --> 00:41:22.730
you drew him as a black guy, but he was
683
00:41:22.750 --> 00:41:26.750
supposed to be Latino. And I said, what? He says, yeah,
684
00:41:26.769 --> 00:41:30.050
it's right there in the plot. And I think it was.
685
00:41:30.110 --> 00:41:33.150
I think I had just somehow glossed over it. So
686
00:41:33.170 --> 00:41:35.829
there was a character who was supposed to be one
687
00:41:36.510 --> 00:41:39.559
minority type, and I drew a different minority type. And
688
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:41.519
Jim said, don't worry about it. I'll write around it.
689
00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:43.699
You know, I said, well, good. That's the Marvel style.
690
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:48.460
You know, so he did not hold it against me,
691
00:41:48.500 --> 00:41:53.130
although he certainly could have. And and so, you know, again,
692
00:41:53.190 --> 00:41:55.389
my working relationship with Jim was quite good.
693
00:41:56.730 --> 00:41:59.269
That's great. You know, honestly, I bet much like me,
694
00:41:59.329 --> 00:42:01.789
while you're telling these stories, I pulled out my iPad,
695
00:42:01.829 --> 00:42:04.639
I grabbed Marvel Unlimited. And I'm looking at covers and
696
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:07.099
pages that you did for Secret Wars 2. I noticed
697
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:10.619
Joe Rubenstein was another inker on that series with Steve.
698
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:12.300
At least he's credited as such.
699
00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:17.289
Yeah, probably, you know, the deadlines got heinous enough that
700
00:42:17.329 --> 00:42:19.869
they had to call in help. I don't remember if
701
00:42:19.949 --> 00:42:25.090
I myself did any inking on the series. And ironically,
702
00:42:26.409 --> 00:42:34.679
after stealing the job from Buscema, They got John Byrne
703
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.619
to do the cover of the first one, which really
704
00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:38.920
galled me no end.
705
00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:40.179
Oh, wow.
706
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.760
Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. You know, look, I like doing
707
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:49.329
the covers for the books I draw, but, you know,
708
00:42:49.409 --> 00:42:54.150
I was probably, because the deadline had become instantly, you know, tight,
709
00:42:54.730 --> 00:42:57.570
they probably said, well, Al's busy drawing the first issue.
710
00:42:57.889 --> 00:43:00.889
We got to get a cover out there for, you know, to...
711
00:43:01.590 --> 00:43:05.389
promote it and sell it. Um, so, and John was
712
00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:08.280
the hot property, certainly at the time, uh, you know,
713
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:11.199
he is the hottest, hottest artist in the biz and
714
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.099
that's what they got him. But, and I would have
715
00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:14.960
liked to have done it. Okay.
716
00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.179
We're stopping here. Part four, final part coming up next
717
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:19.670
time here on word balloon.
718
00:43:21.190 --> 00:43:23.730
That's great, man. You know, honestly, I bet much like me,
719
00:43:23.789 --> 00:43:26.250
while you're telling these stories, I pulled out my iPad,
720
00:43:26.289 --> 00:43:28.920
I grabbed Marvel unlimited and, And I'm looking at covers
721
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.280
and pages that you did for Secret Wars 2. I
722
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:35.079
noticed Joe Rubenstein was another inker on that series with Steve.
723
00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:36.739
At least he's credited as such.
724
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.750
Yeah, probably, you know, the deadlines got heinous enough that
725
00:43:41.769 --> 00:43:44.309
they had to call in help. I don't remember if
726
00:43:44.409 --> 00:43:51.190
I myself did any inking on the series. And ironically,
727
00:43:51.429 --> 00:43:59.139
after stealing the job from Buscema, They got John Byrne
728
00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:02.079
to do the cover of the first one, which really
729
00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:03.360
galled me no end.
730
00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:04.619
Oh, wow.
731
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:10.230
Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. You know, look, I like doing
732
00:44:10.250 --> 00:44:13.789
the covers for the books I draw, but, you know,
733
00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:18.590
I was probably, because the deadline had become instantly, you know, tight,
734
00:44:19.170 --> 00:44:22.010
they probably said, well, Al's busy drawing the first issue.
735
00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:25.329
We got to get a cover out there for, you know, to...
736
00:44:26.050 --> 00:44:29.829
promote it and sell it um so and john was
737
00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:32.710
the hot property certainly at the time uh you know
738
00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:35.929
he's the hottest hottest artist in the biz and that's
739
00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:37.739
what they got him but and i would have liked
740
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:38.280
to have done.
741
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:40.960
It well dude i'm looking at your cover for number
742
00:44:41.019 --> 00:44:45.239
two with the beyonder totally glowing surrounded by iron fist
743
00:44:45.260 --> 00:44:49.800
mr fantastic nick uh uh um not nick luke cage
744
00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:54.130
nick cage uh she all The Human Torch, Spider-Man in
745
00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:57.010
the black outfit, and there's the Invisible Woman. So pretty
746
00:44:57.050 --> 00:44:59.429
dynamic cover, Al, I got to tell you. And I
747
00:44:59.469 --> 00:45:04.260
like the interiors of what I'm looking at. So, you know, honestly, honestly.
748
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:08.980
And so, you know, again, I love these stories. You
749
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.699
are really entertaining the hell out of us. And also,
750
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:15.139
I wanted to ask, going back to fanfare, did you
751
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:18.159
draw those introductions where you would introduce the story?
752
00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:19.840
Oh, yeah. Who else?
753
00:45:19.940 --> 00:45:20.179
All right.
754
00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:20.559
I figured.
755
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:22.090
But I wanted to ask. I wanted to confirm it.
756
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:22.360
Yeah.
757
00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:26.980
They're fun. They're fun. Again, that was my first exposure
758
00:45:27.380 --> 00:45:31.630
to your work was you introducing fanfare and everything. And
759
00:45:31.650 --> 00:45:33.530
it's like, oh, that's cool. And oh, he's the editor.
760
00:45:33.610 --> 00:45:33.889
All right.
761
00:45:33.949 --> 00:45:35.690
Great. And like I said, like I said in the
762
00:45:35.730 --> 00:45:39.730
last chapter of our conversation, you were like Rod Serling.
763
00:45:39.750 --> 00:45:39.929
All right.
764
00:45:39.949 --> 00:45:41.510
We're going to tell you a little story right now, kids.
765
00:45:41.570 --> 00:45:44.239
Everybody get together and you're going to be blown away
766
00:45:44.280 --> 00:45:45.739
by this art. You're going to be blown away by
767
00:45:45.780 --> 00:45:46.739
this story. Yeah.
768
00:45:47.469 --> 00:45:58.840
Well, and in fact, the reason for those was, you know,
769
00:45:58.860 --> 00:46:01.199
when we broke off yesterday, I was talking about fanfare
770
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:04.679
and how I had proposed it as a, you know,
771
00:46:04.699 --> 00:46:07.639
because I learned that, A, we made no money off
772
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:12.059
the advertising that we were using in the book. But
773
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.219
also because of the inception of the direct sales market,
774
00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:20.019
we could sell them to, you know, at a higher price,
775
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.929
but also there was no danger of returns because the
776
00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:29.070
way the, um, the, uh, the way the, uh, distribution work,
777
00:46:29.130 --> 00:46:33.590
newsstand distribution is they would print out, print up, you know,
778
00:46:33.889 --> 00:46:39.059
hundreds of thousands of copies. And then the distributor would
779
00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:41.719
take them to all their clients, all the drug stores
780
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:47.119
and newsstands and wherever the comic books are sold. And
781
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:51.400
they would stay on the stands for a finite period
782
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:55.179
of time, probably, you know, until the next issue of
783
00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:57.489
a title came out. And then they would take all
784
00:46:57.510 --> 00:47:01.829
the unsold copies and initially they would return them for credit.
785
00:47:02.610 --> 00:47:06.309
And then that became too bulky and worrisome. So they
786
00:47:06.349 --> 00:47:09.690
would just tear off the covers and return those for credit.
787
00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:12.809
And that that became that was then they decided too
788
00:47:12.849 --> 00:47:14.530
big of a pain in the ass. And so then
789
00:47:14.550 --> 00:47:17.079
they would just tear off the logos off the covers
790
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.519
and return those. And then finally they said, you know,
791
00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.780
this is not worth the effort. We'll just go on
792
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.920
the honor system. Oh, my God.
793
00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.480
Yeah.
794
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.760
Yes, exactly. So tell them what happened, Al.
795
00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:33.530
Tell them what happened with the bulk comics that they
796
00:47:33.570 --> 00:47:36.090
tore off, even the logo of the cover. What happened
797
00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:38.230
to those comics? Keep going. I know where it's going,
798
00:47:38.250 --> 00:47:38.949
but tell the people.
799
00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:42.750
Yes. Well, some of them probably actually were either scrapped
800
00:47:42.889 --> 00:47:46.969
or returned. But a lot of them were then resold
801
00:47:47.289 --> 00:47:52.409
on some secondary market, you know, with either the logo
802
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:56.099
or the cover itself missing. And so if they were
803
00:47:56.099 --> 00:47:58.940
10 or 12 cents cover price at the time, they'd
804
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:03.409
sell them for a nickel. And I know this because I,
805
00:48:06.829 --> 00:48:09.070
you know, I once in my quest to get early
806
00:48:09.110 --> 00:48:12.760
issues of the Fantastic Four, where the Marvel had very
807
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.059
spotty distribution in those days, probably because they were being
808
00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.599
distributed by DC's distributors, who I'm sure didn't give a
809
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:26.570
flying F about it. I mean, it was their job,
810
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:32.210
but nonetheless. So the retailer would say, yeah, you gave
811
00:48:32.269 --> 00:48:35.250
us 100 copies of this book. We only sold 60.
812
00:48:41.099 --> 00:48:46.079
So they'd get credit for 40. Well, you know, now, meanwhile,
813
00:48:46.139 --> 00:48:50.800
those 40 copies, they were supposed to destroy them. But
814
00:48:50.860 --> 00:48:53.460
as often as not, they'd find somebody who'd pay two
815
00:48:53.500 --> 00:48:56.599
or three cents each for them. Oh, yeah. And then
816
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:58.880
they would, you know, and then there was a mom
817
00:48:58.900 --> 00:49:01.719
and pop shop in my area where they had comic
818
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.969
books on sale with the logos torn off for a nickel.
819
00:49:06.829 --> 00:49:07.170
Sure.
820
00:49:07.650 --> 00:49:11.400
And as it happens, that's where I found my complete
821
00:49:11.659 --> 00:49:15.510
mint condition copy of Fantastic Four number five with the
822
00:49:15.610 --> 00:49:19.219
first appearance of Doctor Doom. They had two copies of it.
823
00:49:19.570 --> 00:49:21.590
It had the logo. It had the cover. They were
824
00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:24.489
just as if you bought them. And I got them
825
00:49:24.510 --> 00:49:26.389
for a nickel each. Wow.
826
00:49:26.409 --> 00:49:29.309
Because I'm just guessing that maybe the cover was off
827
00:49:29.329 --> 00:49:31.969
or something, you know. You see, I'm a little older.
828
00:49:31.989 --> 00:49:34.150
You're a little younger, Al. And I remember when they
829
00:49:34.170 --> 00:49:37.630
would be in bags. And three for a quarter.
830
00:49:38.050 --> 00:49:38.889
Right. Or whatever.
831
00:49:38.969 --> 00:49:39.380
And they went.
832
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:45.840
That was another way that they would manage to make
833
00:49:45.900 --> 00:49:50.440
money off the back end of the comic industry. Yeah.
834
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:53.139
I remember Whitman, and I assume they had an agreement
835
00:49:53.610 --> 00:49:55.670
with Marvel and DC because they would also sell them
836
00:49:55.730 --> 00:50:01.869
like that intact. But no, I remember very distinctly seeing
837
00:50:01.889 --> 00:50:04.789
a lot of great 60s comics with the covers off
838
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:07.219
that they would sell dirt cheap and everything, and I
839
00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:08.219
just wanted to read the story.
840
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:08.719
I didn't care.
841
00:50:09.139 --> 00:50:09.360
Yeah.
842
00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:14.280
Exactly. Exactly. And in my case, I got lucky and got,
843
00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:18.329
you know, a complete copy of that book.
844
00:50:18.349 --> 00:50:19.030
That's fantastic.
845
00:50:19.369 --> 00:50:23.389
So back to fanfare and creating fanfare for the direct market. Well,
846
00:50:23.469 --> 00:50:27.030
and the thing was that the copies that they reported
847
00:50:27.170 --> 00:50:30.900
as unsold, they would receive full credit for, and they
848
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:35.840
could apply it to their next order of comic books. Oh, okay. Yeah, so,
849
00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:38.760
you know, they didn't have... If they got 100 and only...
850
00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:45.309
sold 60, they would get credit for the 40 that
851
00:50:45.329 --> 00:50:48.289
they didn't sell and could use it towards their next order.
852
00:50:48.369 --> 00:50:51.489
And in the meantime, they were making, again, some pennies
853
00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:57.880
on the side by selling them to other venues where
854
00:50:57.940 --> 00:51:01.320
nobody could check up on them. Yeah, absolutely.
855
00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:02.840
No, I love hearing about this period.
856
00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:05.079
You're right.
857
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.030
So Fanfare, like you said, it was a direct market product.
858
00:51:08.869 --> 00:51:11.670
And for twice the– I mean, it was, as we
859
00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:15.750
discussed last time, $ 0. 60 for the average comic, $ 1. 25 for
860
00:51:15.769 --> 00:51:17.110
Marvel Fanfare when it debuted.
861
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:18.070
Correct.
862
00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:23.820
And also, beyond these amazing stories, great pinups and other
863
00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:28.539
beautiful portfolios. We spotlight one artist, but also a bunch
864
00:51:28.579 --> 00:51:31.320
of different artists, right? I mean, you know, so, like,
865
00:51:31.619 --> 00:51:33.639
was that easy to get from the artists and everything?
866
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:36.489
What, get work from them?
867
00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:39.469
Well, I mean, I guess it is just basically work.
868
00:51:39.510 --> 00:51:41.730
But yeah, like, were they excited about, hey, I need
869
00:51:41.750 --> 00:51:45.599
someone to do a Valkyrie pinup for fanfare? Do it.
870
00:51:45.789 --> 00:51:51.449
I think because of the quality of the book, you know,
871
00:51:51.489 --> 00:51:53.510
and the better paper with the better printing and the
872
00:51:53.530 --> 00:51:58.010
better coloring we were capable of getting, I think a
873
00:51:58.050 --> 00:52:00.280
lot of guys were excited. And, you know, don't discount
874
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:02.960
the fact that getting paid one and a half times
875
00:52:02.980 --> 00:52:05.889
your normal rate is a great incentive, you know, and,
876
00:52:05.969 --> 00:52:10.369
and it's again, before they were paying royalties. So, so yeah,
877
00:52:10.550 --> 00:52:12.590
I think that a lot of the art, and I think,
878
00:52:12.610 --> 00:52:16.880
I think it was considered a, you know, a premium
879
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:21.059
product where, you know, you would be maybe honored to
880
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:25.519
be asked to do it. You know, I, I never
881
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:27.460
heard anybody say, I don't want to work for that rag,
882
00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:31.630
you know? So I think, you know, I think it
883
00:52:31.670 --> 00:52:34.760
was a win-win situation all around. And the book sold
884
00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:39.420
very well initially. Um, and, uh, and it gave me an,
885
00:52:39.460 --> 00:52:42.159
you know, I liked, you know, I like to, uh,
886
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:45.599
I like to play around with the art, uh, end
887
00:52:45.659 --> 00:52:49.010
of it, you know, and, and, and the writers to
888
00:52:49.030 --> 00:52:51.309
the stories, but it gave me a wide, you know,
889
00:52:51.329 --> 00:52:55.710
I could do some very offbeat and unorthodox stuff. I
890
00:52:55.750 --> 00:52:59.289
could use some artists who were either, uh, not well
891
00:52:59.349 --> 00:53:05.030
known or who had sort of, um, um, unique or
892
00:53:05.170 --> 00:53:08.230
non less commercial looking, let's put it that way, less
893
00:53:08.289 --> 00:53:12.190
commercial looking, uh, styles, you know, not the necessarily the,
894
00:53:12.650 --> 00:53:17.420
the very slick polished, uh, you know, professional artwork that,
895
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.139
that you're, uh, familiar with, but maybe had like a, uh,
896
00:53:22.539 --> 00:53:25.559
a slightly different take. And I think, I think I
897
00:53:25.579 --> 00:53:29.510
was very lucky and maybe a little good in getting
898
00:53:29.550 --> 00:53:33.800
work out of guys who, uh, ordinarily, we're not finding
899
00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:36.219
a lot of work in the business for whatever reason.
900
00:53:36.280 --> 00:53:42.360
For instance, you know, I mean, I discovered Paul Smith
901
00:53:42.460 --> 00:53:49.449
and got him working. I used an artist called Tony Sammons,
902
00:53:51.389 --> 00:53:54.690
like the fish, who had a very offbeat look to
903
00:53:54.750 --> 00:53:59.500
his stuff. It was not real polished looking stuff. But
904
00:53:59.539 --> 00:54:02.239
the drawing was great, and the storytelling was great, and
905
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:08.619
his composition was really interesting. Marvelous use of space. Not
906
00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:14.179
every panel was cluttered to a fairly well. And this
907
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:17.659
is not meant as a diss, but like, say, George Perez.
908
00:54:18.059 --> 00:54:20.300
If you get George Perez, you're going to get tons
909
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:25.010
of detail in every single panel. Tony's stuff, there was
910
00:54:25.050 --> 00:54:28.489
more breathing room, and I respected that, and I liked it.
911
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.599
And I don't know, I seem to recall him maybe
912
00:54:32.619 --> 00:54:35.900
doing some work up at Continuity Studios, Neil Adams and
913
00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:39.920
Dick Giordano's art studio that they had for comic and
914
00:54:39.980 --> 00:54:43.739
commercial work. Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure about that.
915
00:54:43.820 --> 00:54:46.559
But I was aware of his work and liked it.
916
00:54:46.699 --> 00:54:49.420
And he did at least a couple of jobs for me.
917
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:53.099
I think he did a Cloak and Dagger. I know
918
00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:55.440
he did a Daredevil. Oh, and there was a really
919
00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:59.409
nice Hulk story that he did where... he really kind
920
00:54:59.429 --> 00:55:02.769
of went back to Kirby's original take on the character,
921
00:55:02.829 --> 00:55:07.730
the way he looked, the way he moved. And, you know, being, again,
922
00:55:07.769 --> 00:55:11.570
a Kirby aficionado, I just loved what he did on
923
00:55:11.610 --> 00:55:15.440
that job. And because it had some nice negative space
924
00:55:15.500 --> 00:55:18.659
and open areas, the color looked really nice, you know,
925
00:55:18.940 --> 00:55:21.940
really beautiful. I thought Tony did great stuff. I got
926
00:55:22.099 --> 00:55:26.309
some work by Sandy Plunkett, who was one of the...
927
00:55:26.849 --> 00:55:32.190
all time great illustrators, uh, who's done so little in
928
00:55:32.250 --> 00:55:35.190
comic books. I have no idea how he ever made
929
00:55:35.230 --> 00:55:38.389
a living his whole life. I, I, if I ever
930
00:55:38.429 --> 00:55:40.820
run into him or, or, you know, run into him
931
00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:43.000
online or something, I got to ask him how he
932
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:46.519
survived all these years. Maybe he sells the originals and
933
00:55:46.539 --> 00:55:48.659
gets great money for him. He certainly deserves it. He
934
00:55:48.699 --> 00:55:52.920
did a Scarlet Witch and Spider-Man story for me. I
935
00:55:52.980 --> 00:55:56.860
don't remember if that was, uh, you know, I commissioned
936
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:58.719
the thing, or if it was another thing I stole
937
00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:02.159
from Marvel Team-Up, it seems like kind of a Marvel
938
00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:03.159
Team-Up story.
939
00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:04.900
Sounds like an idea like that.
940
00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's got Spider-Man, so
941
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:12.300
there's a good chance, you know. Sure, sure. And I think,
942
00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:14.860
did he ink it himself? No, I think Craig Russell
943
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.139
might have inked that one. And by the way, there's
944
00:56:17.179 --> 00:56:23.369
a guy, one of the really brilliant illustrators in comics, Craig,
945
00:56:23.389 --> 00:56:24.869
you know, Paul Craig Russell.
946
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:27.420
Couldn't agree more, man. I've had the pleasure of him
947
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:29.760
on my show a couple of times. Oh, and we
948
00:56:29.780 --> 00:56:30.510
heard of a guy.
949
00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:33.929
We heard of a guy. Terrific. And by the way,
950
00:56:33.949 --> 00:56:37.250
he plays piano like a, like a concert pianist. He's fantastic.
951
00:56:37.289 --> 00:56:38.449
I didn't know that. That's amazing.
952
00:56:38.949 --> 00:56:43.429
Yeah. We haven't played a little ditty, but, um, and,
953
00:56:43.639 --> 00:56:46.260
and Craig and I started virtually the same time in
954
00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:49.800
the industry. And not only is his drawing wonderful and
955
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:55.969
he's a, he's a, um, opera aficionado. He loves opera.
956
00:56:56.409 --> 00:57:00.820
He's done a number of adaptations of operas in comic
957
00:57:00.860 --> 00:57:03.780
book form. The Magic Flute, I think he did. I
958
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:05.840
don't know. Yes, I did know that.
959
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:06.460
Yes, yes.
960
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.679
He's done several of them, maybe many of them. They're
961
00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:15.880
beautiful to behold. Everybody run out and look it up
962
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:18.929
online and you can order one, I'm sure, or more.
963
00:57:18.989 --> 00:57:22.550
They're just great. and the other thing about Craig is
964
00:57:23.550 --> 00:57:29.429
because he draws exceptionally well, he, and inks his own stuff. He, um,
965
00:57:30.869 --> 00:57:35.539
he also, uh, he has this, this beautiful incline. I
966
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.800
describe it as calligraphic. It's almost like each line has
967
00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.670
a character unto itself. Uh, you know, as opposed to a,
968
00:57:43.739 --> 00:57:48.170
you know, a normal professional qualified anchor who does a
969
00:57:48.230 --> 00:57:51.699
nice slick line and, knows how to do the pen
970
00:57:51.739 --> 00:57:55.019
work and the brush work. Craig's stuff is so distinctive.
971
00:57:55.719 --> 00:58:00.059
I'm pretty sure I could recognize his inking style on
972
00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:03.889
any penciler. And he was one of my real go-to guys.
973
00:58:03.949 --> 00:58:07.110
If I had somebody who was either a really good
974
00:58:08.110 --> 00:58:10.309
penciler and I couldn't figure out who the hell would
975
00:58:10.329 --> 00:58:13.650
be appropriate to ink him, or somebody with a really
976
00:58:13.789 --> 00:58:16.269
offbeat style and I couldn't figure out who the hell
977
00:58:16.289 --> 00:58:20.260
to ink him, or somebody who is problematic uh, in
978
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:24.969
the pencils for whatever reason, I always ended up, uh, uh,
979
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.400
calling on Craig and, uh, I was surprised actually how
980
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:30.159
much work he had done for me. I think he
981
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:34.949
inked that Sandy Plunkett job. Uh, he inked a, uh,
982
00:58:35.090 --> 00:58:39.949
Carmine Infantino, Dr. Strange job. That was interesting. He inked
983
00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:43.239
a Marshall Rogers, Dr. Strange job. That was wonderful.
984
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:44.099
Yeah.
985
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:49.300
Um, Right, and he did, I did, here's another inventory
986
00:58:49.340 --> 00:58:53.409
job that I, you know, used up for fanfare. It
987
00:58:53.469 --> 00:58:56.789
was the, was it Weird World? Was that the name
988
00:58:56.829 --> 00:58:58.070
of it? Yeah.
989
00:58:58.230 --> 00:59:00.769
With the dwarves.
990
00:59:00.389 --> 00:59:03.090
And elves and magic and, you know, it was, you know,
991
00:59:03.110 --> 00:59:05.789
it was a sort of a Lord of the Rings
992
00:59:06.389 --> 00:59:10.920
influence series. They had a three or four issue series
993
00:59:11.780 --> 00:59:15.159
that for whatever reason, well, they, I think they did
994
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:18.909
like a magazine format of it. And this was like
995
00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:22.929
either earlier adventures or further adventures. The first one was
996
00:59:22.969 --> 00:59:26.030
drawn by Mike Ploog, who was a terrific artist and,
997
00:59:27.500 --> 00:59:30.420
Did very little work in comics. He did Man-Thing, I believe.
998
00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:34.179
He did some Ghost Rider, I think. And, you know,
999
00:59:34.219 --> 00:59:36.039
some other stuff here and there. I think, did he
1000
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.469
do Werewolf by Night, maybe, early on?
1001
00:59:39.489 --> 00:59:42.809
I believe that's right. But also, he did the movie
1002
00:59:42.929 --> 00:59:50.510
with Bashki, Wizards. And also, Demetrius in the early 2000s
1003
00:59:50.570 --> 00:59:53.929
got him back in comics. And they did that fantasy book, Abadazad.
1004
00:59:54.730 --> 00:59:56.030
That was really interesting.
1005
00:59:57.969 --> 00:59:58.909
I don't think I know that one.
1006
00:59:59.250 --> 01:00:01.210
No, I was stunned that he got him back to
1007
01:00:01.230 --> 01:00:03.090
do comics because, yeah, Ploog is amazing.
1008
01:00:03.690 --> 01:00:07.309
Yeah. Well, he's wonderful. And after his fling in comic books,
1009
01:00:08.170 --> 01:00:11.070
where he still probably did more work overall than Jim Sterenko,
1010
01:00:13.989 --> 01:00:18.550
he went off to Hollywood and was doing designs and
1011
01:00:19.150 --> 01:00:22.159
maybe storyboards. I don't really even know what his Hollywood
1012
01:00:22.179 --> 01:00:24.440
career was. But, you know, clearly he was making a
1013
01:00:24.460 --> 01:00:29.690
lot more money doing that than doing comics. But this
1014
01:00:29.769 --> 01:00:33.590
Weird World, he drew the first issue. And so there
1015
01:00:33.610 --> 01:00:36.909
I was, Mike Ploog. Who else? Who could ink him?
1016
01:00:37.550 --> 01:00:39.760
You know, and I said, ah, Craig Russell. And he did.
1017
01:00:39.780 --> 01:00:42.500
And he did a spectacular job. And then the next
1018
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:46.860
three or two or three stories in the continuity, he
1019
01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:51.289
was no longer available, Ploog. And so... which really sounds
1020
01:00:51.329 --> 01:00:53.730
like a sound effect for somebody falling in the swamp.
1021
01:00:56.179 --> 01:00:59.059
I think if somebody falls in the swamp by accident,
1022
01:00:59.300 --> 01:01:04.260
the sound effect would read ploog. So anyway, I hope
1023
01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:07.699
Mike's not offended by that thought. He'd probably like it. Anyway,
1024
01:01:08.489 --> 01:01:10.710
I actually inked him once on just a few pages
1025
01:01:10.730 --> 01:01:14.369
of Cole, the Robert E. Howard character.
1026
01:01:18.579 --> 01:01:19.820
Yeah, Call the Conqueror, sure.
1027
01:01:19.969 --> 01:01:23.389
Call the Conqueror. He did a couple issues of that,
1028
01:01:23.449 --> 01:01:25.530
I think, and I think part of one of them,
1029
01:01:25.630 --> 01:01:29.550
probably because it was one of those emergencies. Beautiful stuff.
1030
01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:32.289
I did okay. He actually said, oh, Al, I like
1031
01:01:32.309 --> 01:01:35.349
what you did on me, and I was very happy
1032
01:01:35.369 --> 01:01:37.789
to hear that because I liked his work so much. Anyway,
1033
01:01:39.809 --> 01:01:42.530
the rest of that storyline, however, was drawn by Pat Broderick,
1034
01:01:43.190 --> 01:01:46.860
who does wonderful detailed stuff and did a fine job,
1035
01:01:46.929 --> 01:01:49.440
and I don't remember who inked it. I think maybe
1036
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.099
Bruce Patterson, it was not Craig, but Bruce Patterson, I
1037
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:55.570
think inked one or possibly two. And I don't know
1038
01:01:55.610 --> 01:01:58.809
who else I, you know, I, you know, if I could,
1039
01:01:58.989 --> 01:02:00.869
any good inker that I could lay my hands on,
1040
01:02:00.929 --> 01:02:03.090
I got, but Craig Russell. Oh. And the other thing
1041
01:02:03.110 --> 01:02:06.289
that he did that I thought was great was, um,
1042
01:02:07.070 --> 01:02:09.739
we had, and again, this was, I guess, technically inventory,
1043
01:02:10.139 --> 01:02:13.380
Gil Kane at some point, who was, um, you know,
1044
01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:17.539
a brilliant, uh, comic book artist, um, as well as
1045
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.960
an art thief. But he also, he had done, he
1046
01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:27.219
had a, you know, a strained relationship with Marvel because
1047
01:02:27.300 --> 01:02:30.590
he would voucher stuff that he hadn't done yet. And
1048
01:02:30.659 --> 01:02:33.489
he would voucher stuff twice. And he would do things
1049
01:02:34.030 --> 01:02:38.789
that drove the accounting department crazy and me crazy and,
1050
01:02:38.909 --> 01:02:43.210
you know, and Shooter crazy and so on. But a brilliant,
1051
01:02:43.269 --> 01:02:45.590
brilliant comic book artist, just great design.
1052
01:02:45.659 --> 01:02:45.849
I got you.
1053
01:02:46.389 --> 01:02:51.230
Yeah, draws great, designs great, great storyteller. You know, as
1054
01:02:51.289 --> 01:02:54.130
a talent, he was among the very best, became, you know,
1055
01:02:54.170 --> 01:02:58.289
Marvel's preeminent cover guy when Kirby went over to DC
1056
01:02:58.389 --> 01:03:02.030
and he drew, you know, he drew like dozens of
1057
01:03:02.070 --> 01:03:05.900
comic book covers for Marvel every single month. And they
1058
01:03:05.940 --> 01:03:11.079
were great, you know, beautifully designed, very eye-catching, you know,
1059
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:14.019
had a whole bunch of different inkers working on them. Well,
1060
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:21.639
he had aspirations to do greater things in comics than superheroes. And,
1061
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:24.750
you know, he did that His Name is Savage, a
1062
01:03:24.809 --> 01:03:29.710
self-published thing that he did about a, I guess, a
1063
01:03:29.750 --> 01:03:31.269
private eye kind of character.
1064
01:03:31.630 --> 01:03:33.469
Private eye or a spy or something.
1065
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:38.699
You know, it was like a James Bond looking action thing.
1066
01:03:39.469 --> 01:03:44.050
A Lee Marvin character as a James Bond spy.
1067
01:03:44.710 --> 01:03:48.349
The cover of the book was a painting, clearly of
1068
01:03:48.409 --> 01:03:51.969
Lee Marvin. And I think he got in trouble for that,
1069
01:03:52.030 --> 01:03:55.110
by the way. I'm sure he didn't do the painting.
1070
01:03:55.150 --> 01:03:56.809
I'm sure that he hired a painter. I don't think
1071
01:03:57.050 --> 01:04:00.280
Gil was... A capable painter, I don't know. I might
1072
01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:01.369
be wrong.
1073
01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:03.349
It didn't look like Gil's art, but yeah, I hear
1074
01:04:03.369 --> 01:04:04.909
what you're saying.
1075
01:04:04.949 --> 01:04:07.730
He may have done the layout for the painting.
1076
01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:08.050
Sure.
1077
01:04:08.230 --> 01:04:11.929
I don't think he actually did it. But he may
1078
01:04:11.949 --> 01:04:14.150
have been sued over it later. And then he did
1079
01:04:14.889 --> 01:04:18.960
that sci-fi newspaper strip, which was two tiers instead of
1080
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:22.800
a single three-panel strip. What was that? Star Fox? Yes.
1081
01:04:26.539 --> 01:04:28.519
That's right. That's right. Yeah.
1082
01:04:28.539 --> 01:04:31.500
And he did that. So he kept trying to sort
1083
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:35.679
of expand the boundaries of comics, which I give him
1084
01:04:35.719 --> 01:04:43.969
credit for that. But he had drawn a multi-issue adaptation
1085
01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:47.670
of The Jungle Book Tales by Rudyard Kipling. Oh, wow.
1086
01:04:48.369 --> 01:04:53.389
And they were wonderful. They looked great. Gill's pencils, I
1087
01:04:53.429 --> 01:04:57.230
found problematic. I found them very hard to ink. Because,
1088
01:04:57.710 --> 01:05:01.469
you know, he drew characters where, you know, the musculature,
1089
01:05:01.550 --> 01:05:04.719
it looked like an anatomy lesson. It didn't look like
1090
01:05:04.739 --> 01:05:08.820
they had flesh, you know. But that was his style.
1091
01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:11.719
And that's what he did. And it was something he
1092
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.699
developed when he finally came over to Marvel from D.C.
1093
01:05:15.380 --> 01:05:18.119
Because his D.C. stuff on Green Lantern and Adam and
1094
01:05:18.659 --> 01:05:22.719
the sci-fi stuff in the 50s and 60s was very
1095
01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:24.769
well drawn. And it was very well inked. And I
1096
01:05:24.849 --> 01:05:28.219
don't know if he inked it himself. Um, but it
1097
01:05:28.260 --> 01:05:32.639
was very, it was, it was well done, but pedestrian,
1098
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:36.550
it looked like the DC house style. And then, you know,
1099
01:05:36.610 --> 01:05:38.309
he came over to Marvel and he was inking his
1100
01:05:38.349 --> 01:05:41.889
own stuff and, you know, it was certainly distinctive. And, and,
1101
01:05:42.130 --> 01:05:44.610
and he, you know, he studied his Kirby who he'd
1102
01:05:44.630 --> 01:05:47.150
been a fan of anyway. And so he got very
1103
01:05:47.190 --> 01:05:51.309
dynamic and much more distinctive looking. And, uh, you know,
1104
01:05:51.510 --> 01:05:53.309
until later in his career, he was inking his own
1105
01:05:53.369 --> 01:05:57.099
stuff using markers and, which I thought was a terrible
1106
01:05:57.139 --> 01:06:00.079
idea on many levels, but he still made it look good.
1107
01:06:00.139 --> 01:06:02.980
I mean, he was, he was that damn good. But
1108
01:06:03.019 --> 01:06:08.260
here I had, here I had these four, um, Mowgli stories, Mowgli, the,
1109
01:06:08.340 --> 01:06:11.300
the jungle boy, um, with, with all the, you know,
1110
01:06:11.340 --> 01:06:14.960
raised by wolves and, and, uh, and, you know, he
1111
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:18.349
could talk, he could talk to all the animals and, um,
1112
01:06:18.929 --> 01:06:23.329
you know, wonderful, charming tales. And, um, You know, and
1113
01:06:23.349 --> 01:06:25.510
there were good animals and bad animals and so on
1114
01:06:25.550 --> 01:06:28.050
and so forth. And I found these in a drawer.
1115
01:06:28.250 --> 01:06:33.289
And I don't remember if he had plotted them or
1116
01:06:33.329 --> 01:06:35.250
scripted them. I mean, they were taken right from the
1117
01:06:35.289 --> 01:06:40.739
original stories, I believe. But so here I have like four,
1118
01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:44.179
a four part story, I think it was by Gil Kane,
1119
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.179
just languishing in a drawer somewhere. And I said, man, OK,
1120
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:50.179
I got to get these scripted and lettered. And who
1121
01:06:50.219 --> 01:06:53.179
could I get to ink them? Who has a good
1122
01:06:53.239 --> 01:06:56.690
illustrative style? Who do I know who can ink anybody
1123
01:06:57.050 --> 01:06:59.429
and would do a nice job on Gil Kane? And
1124
01:06:59.449 --> 01:07:01.690
then I said, well, of course, Craig Russell, because he
1125
01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:06.269
was the guy I used for anything difficult. And he
1126
01:07:06.349 --> 01:07:09.230
just did a terrific job, and they colored up beautifully.
1127
01:07:09.929 --> 01:07:14.050
And I'm very proud of those also. And the dyed-in-the-wool
1128
01:07:14.110 --> 01:07:17.929
comic book superhero fans... I don't know what they thought
1129
01:07:17.969 --> 01:07:21.210
of that series, but I thought it was a credit
1130
01:07:21.250 --> 01:07:23.769
to the title. I thought it was just, you know,
1131
01:07:23.829 --> 01:07:27.510
stuff that that should be published. And I was glad
1132
01:07:28.010 --> 01:07:29.230
I was the one to get to publish it.
1133
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.260
That's really cool. And Marvel put that stuff out.
1134
01:07:34.219 --> 01:07:37.119
Yes, I'm assuming they either had the rights or it
1135
01:07:37.159 --> 01:07:38.619
was public domain by this time.
1136
01:07:39.059 --> 01:07:39.719
Sure, sure.
1137
01:07:39.900 --> 01:07:43.480
So that's really. Yeah. Yeah, so we could rip off
1138
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:45.300
Rudyard Kipling's heirs.
1139
01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:51.489
Well, that's like Scotty Young, for years with Eric Schanauer,
1140
01:07:51.909 --> 01:07:54.670
was doing the L. Frank Baum Oz books in the 2000s.
1141
01:07:54.869 --> 01:07:56.710
Oh, yeah. You're right.
1142
01:07:56.750 --> 01:07:58.469
I mean, and people are like, oh, Scotty, we miss
1143
01:07:58.489 --> 01:08:00.630
you on the X-Men and all the superhero stuff. And
1144
01:08:00.650 --> 01:08:04.550
Scotty's like, I'm having the time of my life adapting L.
1145
01:08:04.570 --> 01:08:05.550
Frank Baum. Yeah.
1146
01:08:05.909 --> 01:08:06.550
Yeah, sure.
1147
01:08:07.409 --> 01:08:09.969
Absolutely. No, I get it, man. That's great. That's fantastic.
1148
01:08:11.300 --> 01:08:14.679
Oh, I just pulled up Secret Wars 2 on my iPad,
1149
01:08:14.739 --> 01:08:16.359
and yeah, that's a pretty good cover.
1150
01:08:16.979 --> 01:08:17.520
Yeah, man.
1151
01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:19.270
Oh, my God, yes, absolutely.
1152
01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:21.529
No, there's several of them that you would, and a
1153
01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:23.909
couple as the series went on that you and Steve,
1154
01:08:23.949 --> 01:08:26.750
I think, co-did and everything, and maybe he did the
1155
01:08:26.789 --> 01:08:29.310
finishes or whatever. I see his name on some of
1156
01:08:29.350 --> 01:08:30.569
the credits of the later issues.
1157
01:08:30.949 --> 01:08:33.869
Yeah, on my covers, I would do full pencils.
1158
01:08:34.890 --> 01:08:35.310
That's cool.
1159
01:08:35.930 --> 01:08:36.750
Yeah, that's cool.
1160
01:08:37.130 --> 01:08:37.369
Very cool.
1161
01:08:37.390 --> 01:08:39.329
Because, you know, it was just one page. I could
1162
01:08:39.350 --> 01:08:42.619
take the time. But, oh, by the way, I never
1163
01:08:42.659 --> 01:08:48.960
finished saying that on Fanfare, once, you know, once Shooter
1164
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:51.199
was breathing down my neck to get the damn thing
1165
01:08:51.239 --> 01:08:55.189
put together so we could publish it, you know, he said,
1166
01:08:55.229 --> 01:08:56.729
you know, and but, you know, Al, you should really
1167
01:08:56.770 --> 01:09:00.920
do an editorial in each issue. to tell the fans,
1168
01:09:00.939 --> 01:09:03.460
you know, what you were thinking and where the stuff
1169
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:06.569
comes from. And, you know, you know, which, which, and
1170
01:09:06.609 --> 01:09:09.550
I just blanched because I, you know, I don't know
1171
01:09:09.609 --> 01:09:11.989
how many typewritten pages it would take to fill an
1172
01:09:12.029 --> 01:09:17.430
entire comic book page of copy, but I, I was
1173
01:09:17.489 --> 01:09:21.289
not eager to, to take that on. And I thought
1174
01:09:21.350 --> 01:09:26.989
about it, and I put a little note on a page, editorial.
1175
01:09:27.609 --> 01:09:30.270
And then I said, hey, wait a minute, editorial. Let
1176
01:09:30.300 --> 01:09:33.560
me put a dash in there. So it became editorial.
1177
01:09:33.619 --> 01:09:38.159
And I said, you know, Jim, could I do those
1178
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:42.560
as a cartoon strip? And he said, I don't see
1179
01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:47.260
why not. And he also had a page in the
1180
01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:52.579
early fanfares, I believe, Shooter's... you know, shooter shooting from
1181
01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:54.239
the hip or something. I don't remember what it was,
1182
01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:59.319
but it, it was there. And, um, you know, so,
1183
01:09:59.390 --> 01:10:02.689
and that was a full page of typewritten stuff. So I,
1184
01:10:02.729 --> 01:10:05.890
you know, I always, I was always loathe to read
1185
01:10:06.050 --> 01:10:09.729
stuff in a comic book that was not comic material. I,
1186
01:10:09.909 --> 01:10:12.489
I didn't read that. I didn't, I, well, I, some
1187
01:10:12.529 --> 01:10:15.930
of the letter columns I would read, but, but not always. And,
1188
01:10:15.989 --> 01:10:18.789
you know, some of the soap boxes and stuff I
1189
01:10:18.829 --> 01:10:22.250
would read. And I don't think I ever read the,
1190
01:10:22.489 --> 01:10:24.430
you know, in the early days when you had to
1191
01:10:24.470 --> 01:10:28.710
have a page of written material to get second-class mailing
1192
01:10:28.770 --> 01:10:29.729
privileges or something.
1193
01:10:29.770 --> 01:10:32.529
Yes, the text pieces that were in the Golden Age.
1194
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:35.500
It would be like a one- or two-page little fictional
1195
01:10:35.539 --> 01:10:36.359
story or something.
1196
01:10:36.539 --> 01:10:36.800
Yes.
1197
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:40.300
Or educational things, like, you know, in the flash comics.
1198
01:10:40.739 --> 01:10:43.979
The fastest animals on Earth, you know, the cheetah can
1199
01:10:44.020 --> 01:10:46.840
run up to 90 miles an hour, the The Raya,
1200
01:10:46.880 --> 01:10:51.189
some kind of bird could run 60 miles an hour. Yeah, yeah.
1201
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:53.350
You know. No, I hear you, man.
1202
01:10:53.430 --> 01:10:55.329
All those little filler things, absolutely.
1203
01:10:55.350 --> 01:10:57.250
Yeah, right. But, you know, and if they were in
1204
01:10:57.310 --> 01:11:00.010
comic form, I would read them. But if they were text,
1205
01:11:00.090 --> 01:11:03.930
I very rarely would. So I said, okay, I'm going
1206
01:11:03.949 --> 01:11:09.029
to go do, you know, a strip. And, you know,
1207
01:11:09.189 --> 01:11:11.140
and so that was fun for me, you know, and
1208
01:11:11.180 --> 01:11:13.859
I did it. And a lot of people, the first
1209
01:11:13.979 --> 01:11:15.840
one I did, they said, oh, Al, you're you're what
1210
01:11:15.859 --> 01:11:18.880
are you doing? Harvey Kurtzman. And I actually was not.
1211
01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.979
I knew I knew of Harvey Kurtzman. I knew his name.
1212
01:11:22.460 --> 01:11:25.739
I didn't know. I had no idea what his drawing
1213
01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:28.140
looked like. And he would I found out later he
1214
01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:30.739
had these little one page strips he would do called,
1215
01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:35.060
I think, Hey, you. And sure enough, they they were
1216
01:11:35.119 --> 01:11:39.060
not dissimilar from what I was doing. You know, Harvey
1217
01:11:39.100 --> 01:11:42.760
Kurtzman's a genius. and I'm just a schlep, but he was,
1218
01:11:42.800 --> 01:11:44.640
you know, he, you know, but I could see it.
1219
01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:46.659
I mean, I was, I, because I just, you know,
1220
01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:49.960
it was simple. It was cartoony. It was exaggerated. And,
1221
01:11:50.939 --> 01:11:53.460
you know, so I developed a style to, to suit that.
1222
01:11:54.060 --> 01:11:55.859
And then, so I, then I had, and, you know,
1223
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:57.760
after the first three or four issues, it became a
1224
01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:02.260
huge chore because it was always the last thing I
1225
01:12:02.319 --> 01:12:04.460
did in every single issue of fanfare before I went
1226
01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:06.739
to press, I'd have to sit down and lay it
1227
01:12:06.859 --> 01:12:08.699
out and then come up with a, what I hoped
1228
01:12:08.779 --> 01:12:12.340
was a funny idea. funny concept. And I did the,
1229
01:12:12.420 --> 01:12:14.939
you know, I did the Ditko nine panel a page
1230
01:12:15.020 --> 01:12:18.899
grid for the most part. Yeah. And, um, I find that,
1231
01:12:18.930 --> 01:12:21.590
you know, I like that because you can do, you can,
1232
01:12:22.289 --> 01:12:24.590
you can keep it simple and, and not have to
1233
01:12:24.630 --> 01:12:26.729
get overly elaborate. And I didn't want to in that,
1234
01:12:27.010 --> 01:12:30.369
in that format anyway, but, um, you know, but I
1235
01:12:30.409 --> 01:12:33.939
think I, I, I did, I reread them now and I'm,
1236
01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:37.960
I'm pretty amused myself. I amuse myself. Um, no, it's like,
1237
01:12:37.979 --> 01:12:42.970
they're great. I'm laughing at my own jokes. And then
1238
01:12:42.979 --> 01:12:46.010
I had a little side career in the years following
1239
01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:52.449
doing editorial for reprints of Starlin stuff or my stuff or,
1240
01:12:53.090 --> 01:12:58.449
you know, various collected editions. People would call up and say, hey, Al,
1241
01:12:58.489 --> 01:13:00.449
can you want to do an introduction for such and such?
1242
01:13:00.949 --> 01:13:02.930
And I'd always say, can I do it as an editorial?
1243
01:13:02.970 --> 01:13:07.210
And usually they'd say yes. Sometimes they'd say no. And
1244
01:13:07.229 --> 01:13:09.159
I think it also... It may have had to do
1245
01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:11.119
with the budget, although I was willing to do it
1246
01:13:11.220 --> 01:13:13.920
on a on a cheaper, you know, because they had
1247
01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:18.810
to pay for script, penciling and inking of a, you know, comic.
1248
01:13:19.829 --> 01:13:24.270
And I think normally paying like an actual writer to
1249
01:13:24.729 --> 01:13:28.710
do a page of of just typewritten stuff was probably cheaper.
1250
01:13:28.850 --> 01:13:32.359
So and, you know, and it's more personal to me.
1251
01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:36.470
I that's my. You know, that's the thing I'm known for. Yeah.
1252
01:13:36.550 --> 01:13:39.090
So I thought, if I'm doing the introduction, let me
1253
01:13:39.130 --> 01:13:42.850
do one of these babies. So anyway, so even now,
1254
01:13:42.970 --> 01:13:49.069
even on these reprint omnibuses, or is it omnibuy that
1255
01:13:49.140 --> 01:13:55.079
Marvel's publishing, I'm doing a new two-page editorial for each edition.
1256
01:13:55.760 --> 01:13:58.600
Hey, that's great. Oh, that's so great to hear. And honestly,
1257
01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:01.619
at the same time, that's when Fred Hembeck was doing
1258
01:14:01.659 --> 01:14:04.779
his fun thing you know, little comic things. And that's
1259
01:14:04.819 --> 01:14:07.579
what I equated what you were doing with. And I'm like, Oh,
1260
01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:10.600
it's another guy doing funny stuff. Absolutely. This is good.
1261
01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:12.979
Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. I like Fred stuff
1262
01:14:13.020 --> 01:14:16.270
is great. And, and they will also get him to do,
1263
01:14:16.390 --> 01:14:18.909
you know, funny introductions to various things. They had a,
1264
01:14:19.510 --> 01:14:22.229
didn't they have a fantastic four roast where he was
1265
01:14:22.289 --> 01:14:26.930
the framing artist for everybody else? Yeah. Yeah. Oh no.
1266
01:14:26.970 --> 01:14:28.989
And I loved, yeah. I loved all the strips that
1267
01:14:29.010 --> 01:14:31.439
he did for both. DC and Marvel over the years.
1268
01:14:31.539 --> 01:14:33.720
I keep, you know, I'm kicking myself out. I, I
1269
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:35.899
really sooner than later, I gave him a friend on
1270
01:14:35.939 --> 01:14:39.470
the show because I've always adored his work and everything.
1271
01:14:39.810 --> 01:14:40.449
He's amazing.
1272
01:14:40.590 --> 01:14:40.829
Yeah.
1273
01:14:40.850 --> 01:14:42.250
Brilliant guy. Brilliant guy.
1274
01:14:43.329 --> 01:14:45.689
Yeah. And he's got, you know, I don't know if
1275
01:14:45.770 --> 01:14:48.010
he makes his living drawing. I assume he may have
1276
01:14:48.050 --> 01:14:50.729
a side job, a real job as it were. Um,
1277
01:14:51.149 --> 01:14:52.979
but I always thought his stuff was, was a lot
1278
01:14:53.020 --> 01:14:55.819
of fun and very, you know, interesting to read and, and,
1279
01:14:56.119 --> 01:15:00.140
and funny. And, uh, So I very carefully avoided drawing
1280
01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:02.859
curly Q's on everybody's knees and elbows.
1281
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:07.960
Or like the flapping feet that John Martin used to
1282
01:15:07.979 --> 01:15:10.399
put people on in Mad Magazine, too.
1283
01:15:10.640 --> 01:15:15.899
Right, right, yeah. So anyway, yeah, and it's nice, because
1284
01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:21.699
I have done, I actually did do, somebody hired me
1285
01:15:21.850 --> 01:15:31.220
to do reviews or critiques of several independent comics that, uh,
1286
01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:35.239
you know, that were being published. And he sent me
1287
01:15:35.279 --> 01:15:37.789
a whole stack of them. And I, you know, I
1288
01:15:37.829 --> 01:15:41.409
wanted to make sure I had once, uh, checked with shooter.
1289
01:15:41.430 --> 01:15:43.930
I said, look, I, I don't want Marvel to own my,
1290
01:15:44.489 --> 01:15:47.869
my caricature. I don't want them to own my likeness. Uh,
1291
01:15:48.569 --> 01:15:51.840
and he said, you know, yeah, I understand that. I said,
1292
01:15:51.859 --> 01:15:54.220
you know, I I'm doing editorial. I I'd like to
1293
01:15:54.260 --> 01:15:57.529
be able to use that caricature, uh, Uh, you know,
1294
01:15:57.609 --> 01:16:00.750
anytime I want, he says, hell, I can't imagine Marvel
1295
01:16:00.770 --> 01:16:05.340
wants to own you per se. And, um, he said, look,
1296
01:16:05.420 --> 01:16:08.640
if it comes down to it, uh, we'll lease, we'll
1297
01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:10.819
lease the character to you for like a dollar a year.
1298
01:16:10.840 --> 01:16:15.000
And I said, okay, great. So, so I, uh, I
1299
01:16:15.039 --> 01:16:17.979
went ahead and I did the series of these, uh,
1300
01:16:18.100 --> 01:16:22.449
reviews of various, I must've been seven, eight, nine other
1301
01:16:22.489 --> 01:16:24.710
damn things. I had to read through them all. I
1302
01:16:24.750 --> 01:16:26.710
got paid a little bit. I got paid some money,
1303
01:16:26.750 --> 01:16:29.760
but not much. But the guy also, he said, look,
1304
01:16:29.770 --> 01:16:32.180
I want you to do like a, you know, half
1305
01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:35.840
a dozen sketches of yourself. Because I said, you know,
1306
01:16:35.859 --> 01:16:37.140
what I'm going to do is I think we're going
1307
01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:41.340
to call it Critical. And we'll, and I, you know,
1308
01:16:41.380 --> 01:16:44.060
and I'll be critical of these publications. And I wrote,
1309
01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:49.220
you know, reviews to the best of my ability. And,
1310
01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:53.529
you know, and he used different, you know, caricatures of
1311
01:16:53.569 --> 01:16:56.840
me in each, in each review, I think. And it, uh,
1312
01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:59.260
you know, it turned out really well. And now, you know, I, uh,
1313
01:16:59.779 --> 01:17:01.060
I use it whenever I get the chance.
1314
01:17:01.920 --> 01:17:06.140
That's fantastic, man. And well-deserved. That's great. That's great to hear. Al,
1315
01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:09.810
you've been amazing with your time. And I, my God, uh,
1316
01:17:10.130 --> 01:17:12.449
can I, can I, I mean, obviously, and I should mention,
1317
01:17:12.750 --> 01:17:14.750
we're going to do a panel terrific on, and this
1318
01:17:14.770 --> 01:17:17.869
will come out well before that, but, um, you know,
1319
01:17:17.949 --> 01:17:20.600
and we'll, we'll certainly talk more about yours and Jim's,
1320
01:17:21.229 --> 01:17:24.329
collaborations in the cosmic world that went on for, you know,
1321
01:17:24.350 --> 01:17:26.439
a long, long time. And I know you were involved
1322
01:17:26.460 --> 01:17:29.479
with a lot of the Infinity miniseries that came out
1323
01:17:29.500 --> 01:17:32.300
during the 90s and things like that. But there is
1324
01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:34.359
so much else of your comic career that we haven't
1325
01:17:34.380 --> 01:17:37.890
even touched. Can I bug you, like, six months down
1326
01:17:37.899 --> 01:17:39.869
the line or next year or something, and we could
1327
01:17:39.909 --> 01:17:41.189
talk more about some of this stuff?
1328
01:17:41.270 --> 01:17:45.909
Is that okay? It's okay on one condition. Talk to me. Okay.
1329
01:17:46.810 --> 01:17:48.729
I keep forgetting to do this, but when I go,
1330
01:17:48.869 --> 01:17:51.060
you know, I've done a number of podcasts now. And
1331
01:17:52.220 --> 01:17:53.399
I'd like to plug myself.
1332
01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:54.760
Of course.
1333
01:17:55.720 --> 01:17:59.939
I would like to give out my email address because
1334
01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:02.720
I have no online presence to speak of. I don't
1335
01:18:02.760 --> 01:18:05.500
have a website or anything like that. But I am
1336
01:18:05.579 --> 01:18:10.510
available to do commissions at reasonable rates. Or if you
1337
01:18:10.789 --> 01:18:13.229
don't go to shows and you need something autographed, I'm
1338
01:18:13.270 --> 01:18:15.550
willing to work through the mails. So I will now
1339
01:18:16.029 --> 01:18:20.279
read off my email address. And if you put in
1340
01:18:20.300 --> 01:18:30.029
the subject line, you know, commission, or I heard you on, um, um, whatever. Um,
1341
01:18:30.489 --> 01:18:32.909
and you want to contact me, I will send you
1342
01:18:32.930 --> 01:18:35.050
a list of my rates. And if, you know, if
1343
01:18:35.069 --> 01:18:38.770
you want some, some, uh, uh, an original drawing by,
1344
01:18:39.050 --> 01:18:42.729
by good old editorial, then, uh, it is possible to
1345
01:18:42.800 --> 01:18:46.409
obtain them. So now I will say it. And by
1346
01:18:46.430 --> 01:18:48.869
the way, you might want to put it up at
1347
01:18:48.909 --> 01:18:51.689
the top of the podcast also. Say, hey, Al wants
1348
01:18:51.729 --> 01:18:55.390
to let you guys know and give it then also.
1349
01:18:57.149 --> 01:19:05.520
Here it is. It's editorial4 at AOL.com. Now I will
1350
01:19:05.560 --> 01:19:16.229
spell that. It's E-D-I- T-O-R-I-A-L-4. That's the numeral, not spelled out.
1351
01:19:17.229 --> 01:19:24.689
Editorial4 at AOL.com. All right. So, you know, if you
1352
01:19:24.710 --> 01:19:27.720
need a nice little drawing to patch up a hole
1353
01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:31.779
in your wall, cover it somewhere. I'm the guy to see.
1354
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:35.180
I'm probably cheaper than a spackle and paint job.
1355
01:19:35.949 --> 01:19:38.649
That's fantastic, Alan. I'm really glad that you are still
1356
01:19:38.689 --> 01:19:42.170
doing it, and I'm glad that people are hitting you
1357
01:19:42.210 --> 01:19:46.220
up on those kind of opportunities. And I'm very happy
1358
01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:49.119
to promote this for you. So, you know, I got
1359
01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:52.159
a few thousand listeners, so that's good. Oh, that many?
1360
01:19:52.239 --> 01:19:55.930
Okay. I was figuring, you know, maybe 42. Ten. But
1361
01:19:55.939 --> 01:20:02.439
thousands is good. Yeah, not bad. Commissioned, yeah. Excellent.
1362
01:20:02.479 --> 01:20:04.880
Well, you know, I've been doing the podcast for 20
1363
01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:06.979
years now, Al, and I'm so sorry that it's taken
1364
01:20:07.000 --> 01:20:11.869
this long to get you solo. We did a panel with, oh, God,
1365
01:20:11.909 --> 01:20:16.250
Master of Kung Fu. I'm blanking now, the artist.
1366
01:20:16.949 --> 01:20:17.529
Galaci?
1367
01:20:17.750 --> 01:20:20.369
Galaci, Paul, yeah. Yeah, me, you, and Paul did one.
1368
01:20:21.060 --> 01:20:21.220
Yeah.
1369
01:20:21.229 --> 01:20:22.779
Terrific, kind of, a couple years ago. But I'm looking
1370
01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:24.680
forward to it. You with Starlin.
1371
01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:25.779
And it is so.
1372
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.760
Great because you'll have to retell people about the fact
1373
01:20:28.779 --> 01:20:31.680
that you guys have been friends since junior high. That's amazing.
1374
01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:34.159
And that you came into the biz together and everything.
1375
01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:36.970
And then we'll get into the Cosmic stuff. So, no,
1376
01:20:37.090 --> 01:20:39.189
it excites me even more to have this panel with
1377
01:20:39.229 --> 01:20:40.069
you in a couple weeks.
1378
01:20:40.689 --> 01:20:43.630
Okay. Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
1379
01:20:43.670 --> 01:20:44.189
thank you.
1380
01:20:44.250 --> 01:20:46.649
And again, I'll shake your hand in person. But thank
1381
01:20:46.670 --> 01:20:47.550
you so much for your time.
1382
01:20:47.569 --> 01:20:49.890
It's been amazing. Oh, my pleasure, John. And I think
1383
01:20:50.270 --> 01:20:53.630
I'm also doing a– I believe they're doing a tribute
1384
01:20:53.729 --> 01:20:54.989
panel to Jim Shooter.
1385
01:20:55.970 --> 01:20:58.529
Yes, and I wasn't certain because I don't know who's
1386
01:20:58.550 --> 01:20:59.989
on it and who isn't, so I'm glad if you're
1387
01:21:00.050 --> 01:21:03.350
on it. That's great, too. And, no, I'm really, really
1388
01:21:03.399 --> 01:21:07.300
excited about this. Every year Terrificon puts out great programming.
1389
01:21:07.319 --> 01:21:08.720
They do, yeah. And I'm not going to say that
1390
01:21:08.739 --> 01:21:11.319
because they're a sponsor. But, no, Mitch has become a
1391
01:21:11.380 --> 01:21:12.479
good friend over the years.
1392
01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:13.300
Yeah.
1393
01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:16.520
And I am always thrilled with the opportunity. That was
1394
01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:21.310
my one opportunity talking to Shooter was Terrificon. And I
1395
01:21:21.369 --> 01:21:23.789
treasure it, and I'm glad that I had that opportunity.
1396
01:21:23.810 --> 01:21:26.170
And I'm sad that he's not with us anymore because
1397
01:21:26.229 --> 01:21:28.010
I had a million more questions, but at least I
1398
01:21:28.050 --> 01:21:29.890
got an hour out of them.
1399
01:21:30.050 --> 01:21:34.270
And Jim had a great memory. Yes. I mean, sometimes
1400
01:21:35.449 --> 01:21:37.729
he remembered it his way a little more than I
1401
01:21:37.789 --> 01:21:43.020
remembered it, but that's human nature. And I had spoken
1402
01:21:43.069 --> 01:21:46.399
to him a few months back, and I knew that
1403
01:21:46.439 --> 01:21:51.939
he had a problem, that he had ill health. esophageal cancer.
1404
01:21:52.579 --> 01:21:55.199
And I was hoping he could beat it. And then
1405
01:21:55.239 --> 01:21:58.710
I saw him at the one day show, the Little
1406
01:21:58.770 --> 01:22:03.789
Giant Comic Con in New Hampshire. And he looked very
1407
01:22:04.250 --> 01:22:08.050
gaunt and very lost a ton of weight. But he
1408
01:22:08.069 --> 01:22:10.409
was in good spirits and we had a great chat.
1409
01:22:10.500 --> 01:22:13.380
And I had talked to him just prior to the
1410
01:22:13.420 --> 01:22:16.500
show because I knew he wasn't doing well. I wanted
1411
01:22:16.539 --> 01:22:19.939
to call and talk. And I saw the young lady
1412
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:23.859
who was repping him at the time, Brittany, her name is,
1413
01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:29.600
and a really nice and cute as hell young lady.
1414
01:22:30.180 --> 01:22:33.600
And she was kind of watching out for him and
1415
01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:36.340
making sure he got around and so on. He was
1416
01:22:36.380 --> 01:22:41.319
in a wheelchair. Wow. Wow. Just because he was so weak. Sure.
1417
01:22:41.989 --> 01:22:44.289
And I saw her at another show and she said, no,
1418
01:22:44.310 --> 01:22:46.029
you know, Al, you ought to really give Jim a call.
1419
01:22:46.840 --> 01:22:49.159
I said, how's he doing? She goes, you know, he's struggling.
1420
01:22:49.220 --> 01:22:52.939
I said, okay, I definitely will. And I saw that
1421
01:22:52.979 --> 01:22:56.159
he was supposed to show up at the Heroes Con
1422
01:22:56.279 --> 01:22:59.470
in North Carolina. And so I thought, okay, you know,
1423
01:22:59.630 --> 01:23:01.470
that's good. I'll see him there. And then I'll, you know,
1424
01:23:01.489 --> 01:23:04.229
then I'll try to call him on a more regular basis.
1425
01:23:05.069 --> 01:23:07.390
And he didn't come to the show because apparently he
1426
01:23:07.430 --> 01:23:10.500
was too weak. And I said, oh, you know, I really,
1427
01:23:10.659 --> 01:23:13.500
and I literally, I had a list. I had a
1428
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:16.710
to-do list. of two or three, you know, commissions I
1429
01:23:16.750 --> 01:23:19.250
had to finish for people from that show, but also,
1430
01:23:19.270 --> 01:23:22.250
you know, very close to the top was call Jim and,
1431
01:23:22.289 --> 01:23:23.890
you know, see, you know, see how he's doing, try
1432
01:23:23.909 --> 01:23:25.449
to cheer him up a little, that kind of thing.
1433
01:23:25.949 --> 01:23:28.100
And he, and then like literally a day later, he,
1434
01:23:28.220 --> 01:23:30.859
he had passed away. And I said, oh man, that,
1435
01:23:30.899 --> 01:23:33.800
you know, what, why was, why was I hesitating? Why
1436
01:23:33.819 --> 01:23:37.239
did I, you know, I should have called him like ASAP.
1437
01:23:37.979 --> 01:23:39.739
And I feel bad that I didn't get at least
1438
01:23:39.819 --> 01:23:42.079
one last chance to talk with him. But the last
1439
01:23:42.100 --> 01:23:45.010
time I did see him, I got a couple laughs
1440
01:23:45.109 --> 01:23:47.789
out of him. We, you know, took our usual stroll
1441
01:23:47.810 --> 01:23:52.210
down memory lane. And, you know, I think I think
1442
01:23:52.250 --> 01:23:55.329
he knew he was, you know, appreciated by a lot
1443
01:23:55.369 --> 01:23:55.750
of people.
1444
01:23:56.789 --> 01:23:59.050
That's great. That's great to hear. And yes, I mean,
1445
01:23:59.069 --> 01:24:02.149
an amazing force. And I understand the divisive force, depending
1446
01:24:02.170 --> 01:24:04.510
on who you talk to, including some people that will
1447
01:24:04.529 --> 01:24:06.109
be a terrific kind of probably won't be on that
1448
01:24:06.149 --> 01:24:10.189
tribute panel. But yeah, that's OK. People, people are complicated,
1449
01:24:10.260 --> 01:24:10.460
you know.
1450
01:24:11.130 --> 01:24:15.300
It's true, and he was in a position where it's
1451
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:21.439
a tough job being the boss. Absolutely. And he did
1452
01:24:21.479 --> 01:24:24.520
some great things at Marvel and some great things for
1453
01:24:24.579 --> 01:24:26.119
freelancers in general.
1454
01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:28.100
No question.
1455
01:24:29.279 --> 01:24:33.220
When DC threatened to pay royalties, he got Marvel to
1456
01:24:33.279 --> 01:24:36.270
match the deal, even though it was going to cost
1457
01:24:36.329 --> 01:24:38.069
Marvel a lot more money than it was going to
1458
01:24:38.090 --> 01:24:41.670
cost DC in the instance. Um, cause our books, you know,
1459
01:24:41.710 --> 01:24:44.460
sales were higher and the royalties would have been much greater,
1460
01:24:44.920 --> 01:24:48.220
but he convinced him that he, uh, he, he made
1461
01:24:48.260 --> 01:24:50.140
it clear that he thought the artists should be getting
1462
01:24:50.180 --> 01:24:54.170
their artwork back. Um, I think that was, uh, in
1463
01:24:54.229 --> 01:24:57.170
great part due to his pushing. I don't remember if
1464
01:24:57.229 --> 01:25:01.250
it was anything earlier than that or not, but, um,
1465
01:25:01.729 --> 01:25:07.050
and he, um, He said, I don't want any of
1466
01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:09.970
the people working for me to wind up like Siegel
1467
01:25:10.010 --> 01:25:13.140
and Schuster, where they create a character who ends up
1468
01:25:13.180 --> 01:25:17.819
being a valuable property, and they're still struggling and working
1469
01:25:19.260 --> 01:25:23.880
page rates to make a living. And I thought that
1470
01:25:24.140 --> 01:25:26.560
that showed a good sense of history and a good
1471
01:25:26.600 --> 01:25:29.340
sense of fair play. And he did, in fact, get
1472
01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:34.340
a thing in place called called the New Character Agreements,
1473
01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:38.300
which every time you created a new character, Marvel would
1474
01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:41.359
send you a paper, and it said that you would
1475
01:25:41.420 --> 01:25:50.850
have a certain amount of participation in any future ancillary
1476
01:25:51.470 --> 01:25:54.890
products using your characters that you created. So if he
1477
01:25:54.930 --> 01:25:57.409
was in a movie or a TV show or a
1478
01:25:57.449 --> 01:26:02.060
video game, or a bobblehead or lunchboxes, whatever it might be,
1479
01:26:02.119 --> 01:26:06.659
coloring books, you would get a piece of the action. Yeah. Yeah,
1480
01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:12.470
and actually now Disney is doing their damnedest to retrofit
1481
01:26:12.529 --> 01:26:17.649
that so that it's no longer the case because, you know,
1482
01:26:17.710 --> 01:26:22.829
they bought Marvel and they assumed that they now owned
1483
01:26:22.909 --> 01:26:26.680
everything lock, stock, and barrel. But they didn't take into
1484
01:26:26.699 --> 01:26:29.779
account these new character agreements.
1485
01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:32.899
Even further, as I understood it, Quesada had to talk
1486
01:26:32.939 --> 01:26:35.869
to the Disney guys when Joe was still the editor-in-chief
1487
01:26:36.270 --> 01:26:41.890
and explain guys like yourself that are allowed to continually
1488
01:26:41.949 --> 01:26:47.630
do commissions and recreations of Marvel characters without any kickback
1489
01:26:47.670 --> 01:26:50.449
to Disney or anything. And, you know, yeah, Joe had
1490
01:26:50.470 --> 01:26:53.890
to make that explanation. And listen, again, I'm not trying
1491
01:26:53.909 --> 01:26:56.770
to make apologies for corporations, but they have kind of
1492
01:26:56.800 --> 01:27:00.520
these faceless, monolithic things of, well, we didn't make that deal.
1493
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:04.079
Why should we be beholden to it? So it's tough,
1494
01:27:04.140 --> 01:27:07.119
and you need guys like Quesada and Schroeder to explain
1495
01:27:07.159 --> 01:27:10.600
to the upstairs people, no, you really need to do this,
1496
01:27:10.979 --> 01:27:15.300
and it's always been okay. Or this is something new
1497
01:27:15.680 --> 01:27:18.439
to introduce where these guys deserve it. They're the creators
1498
01:27:18.500 --> 01:27:20.760
of this stuff. And I know Lawrence was like that
1499
01:27:20.840 --> 01:27:23.479
at DC as well, as long as he was publisher.
1500
01:27:23.859 --> 01:27:25.079
Yeah.
1501
01:27:25.220 --> 01:27:27.520
So it's tough. And I'm glad there are lawyers out
1502
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:30.720
there that are making sure guys are getting compensated for
1503
01:27:30.739 --> 01:27:33.180
the things they created. So I don't remember the one
1504
01:27:33.199 --> 01:27:35.119
guy's name, but I know Chaykin and a few others
1505
01:27:35.520 --> 01:27:38.770
have used the same lawyer over the years to kind
1506
01:27:38.810 --> 01:27:40.850
of go, you know, actually, I created that and I
1507
01:27:40.869 --> 01:27:45.250
deserve some sort of money. Yeah. Yeah.
1508
01:27:45.289 --> 01:27:53.479
Well, what happened with disney is that uh they have
1509
01:27:53.539 --> 01:27:58.760
now crafted a new uh what's called a special character
1510
01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:03.579
agreement which uh supersedes the new character agreement but you
1511
01:28:03.619 --> 01:28:06.979
have to sign off on it and uh you know
1512
01:28:07.119 --> 01:28:08.960
i know there have been a number i think when
1513
01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:13.100
i think disney realized uh when the first avengers movie
1514
01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:16.550
came out and thanos appeared in the very last scene
1515
01:28:16.590 --> 01:28:19.550
of the movie well nearly the last scene and uh
1516
01:28:20.949 --> 01:28:24.479
I'm sure Disney was going, what a deal. We bought
1517
01:28:24.500 --> 01:28:27.140
this company for $ 3 billion, and look, we're going to
1518
01:28:27.159 --> 01:28:32.159
make it back in the very first movie. And then
1519
01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:35.949
probably somebody said, well, of course, Starlin's going to get
1520
01:28:35.989 --> 01:28:38.649
some of that. And they went, what is this Starlin
1521
01:28:38.689 --> 01:28:39.470
you're talking about?
1522
01:28:39.510 --> 01:28:39.590
Yeah.
1523
01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:45.079
Well, he created Thanos. Oh, well, yeah, but we own Thanos. Well, yeah,
1524
01:28:45.300 --> 01:28:49.420
but Jim signed this new character agreement with Marvel in
1525
01:28:49.439 --> 01:28:53.100
the old days, which entitles him to a piece of
1526
01:28:53.159 --> 01:28:56.779
that action. And I'm sure Disney was just horrified. Yeah.
1527
01:28:57.369 --> 01:29:00.989
So now, you know, I know that I don't know
1528
01:29:01.050 --> 01:29:04.109
the details, but I know that both he and Simonson,
1529
01:29:04.649 --> 01:29:07.069
who created the Dark Elf, who appeared in the second
1530
01:29:07.130 --> 01:29:10.489
Thor movie, you know, Disney just went ahead and made
1531
01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:14.699
the movies, didn't ever check to see that, you know,
1532
01:29:14.720 --> 01:29:20.119
because why would they print anybody else's rights? And so
1533
01:29:21.260 --> 01:29:24.899
they had a lawyer and they negotiated a settlement and
1534
01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:29.449
they both Tell me they were very satisfied, which good
1535
01:29:29.489 --> 01:29:32.949
for them. But, you know, they had the advantage of,
1536
01:29:33.149 --> 01:29:35.489
you know, the stuff was already used in the movies. So,
1537
01:29:35.930 --> 01:29:42.430
you know, there's no backseat, you know. So now, you know,
1538
01:29:42.489 --> 01:29:45.149
Disney does want, you know, they're trying to get everybody
1539
01:29:45.210 --> 01:29:48.069
who worked for Marvel in the day to sign these
1540
01:29:48.829 --> 01:29:52.470
special character agreements. Interesting. Yeah, man.
1541
01:29:52.869 --> 01:29:55.029
No, great insight, Al. I appreciate it, man.
1542
01:29:55.060 --> 01:29:56.670
Yeah. Yeah.
1543
01:29:57.149 --> 01:29:58.989
Well, again, I feel like I'm keeping you from dinner
1544
01:29:59.010 --> 01:29:59.470
or something.
1545
01:29:59.489 --> 01:30:02.989
I don't know. No, no, we're going shortly, but so
1546
01:30:03.029 --> 01:30:07.430
far you're still under the wire. Beautiful. I do go on,
1547
01:30:07.590 --> 01:30:08.149
as they say.
1548
01:30:08.170 --> 01:30:12.159
Al, do not even consider this like, oh, I'm sorry
1549
01:30:12.180 --> 01:30:14.899
if I'm, you know, tangents and everything. That is one
1550
01:30:14.939 --> 01:30:17.720
of the greatest things about my show, and truly the
1551
01:30:17.760 --> 01:30:20.579
great thing is my listeners and viewers, will then come
1552
01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:23.260
to you and say, hey, I heard about this thing
1553
01:30:23.279 --> 01:30:25.180
that you talked about on WordBullet, and it's the greatest
1554
01:30:25.220 --> 01:30:28.279
compliment to my show. But it's just, no, they love this.
1555
01:30:28.439 --> 01:30:30.880
And truly, the stories you've told about the Golden Age
1556
01:30:31.859 --> 01:30:34.920
artists and everything and all this stuff, and especially even
1557
01:30:34.939 --> 01:30:38.060
the special character stuff that did the writer at the end, no,
1558
01:30:38.079 --> 01:30:41.119
this is great inside information that I think, because a
1559
01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:43.270
lot of times, you know, somebody who watches a movie
1560
01:30:43.350 --> 01:30:45.939
or reads a comic and assumes, oh, well, of course,
1561
01:30:46.000 --> 01:30:50.680
you know, Len Wein needed to get Hugh Jackman embarrassing
1562
01:30:50.739 --> 01:30:54.140
Disney pointing to Len Wein at the premiere of Logan
1563
01:30:54.460 --> 01:30:56.060
and saying, I would not be on this stage if
1564
01:30:56.119 --> 01:30:58.319
it wasn't for this man, the man who created Wolverine.
1565
01:30:58.659 --> 01:31:01.020
And it's like, yeah. And thank God they, you know,
1566
01:31:01.060 --> 01:31:03.100
they took care of Len before he passed away. God
1567
01:31:03.119 --> 01:31:04.760
bless him.
1568
01:31:05.140 --> 01:31:07.319
That's good to hear. Yeah, that's another guy. I can't
1569
01:31:07.350 --> 01:31:11.689
believe he's gone so young. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know,
1570
01:31:11.989 --> 01:31:15.569
that is one nice thing. There's a lawyer. who has
1571
01:31:15.609 --> 01:31:21.430
helped me in some other scenarios, named Lawrence Klein. And Lawrence,
1572
01:31:21.689 --> 01:31:26.329
he knows the business. He's a fan. And he, I
1573
01:31:26.369 --> 01:31:31.050
know he's worked with Dave, you know, Patey Cockrum, Dave
1574
01:31:31.069 --> 01:31:37.180
Cockrum's widow. Yeah. And Bill Mantlo, who is unfortunately brain
1575
01:31:37.220 --> 01:31:41.699
damaged and can't really function in the real world. And
1576
01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:44.579
his brother was his caretaker for many years. But he
1577
01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:49.520
passed away within the last few years, I believe. But
1578
01:31:49.600 --> 01:31:53.050
he has done, I think, a lot of work on
1579
01:31:53.069 --> 01:31:56.289
the part of these people who would really, you know,
1580
01:31:56.369 --> 01:32:00.430
fall through the cracks, who created, I mean, Manlo created
1581
01:32:00.510 --> 01:32:03.949
a lot of stuff for Marvel. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
1582
01:32:04.090 --> 01:32:09.619
By happy coincidence has gone on to, you know, movie success.
1583
01:32:10.220 --> 01:32:12.479
You know, Rocket Raccoon, of course, is his.
1584
01:32:12.500 --> 01:32:13.300
Yeah.
1585
01:32:14.060 --> 01:32:17.880
You know, and there's, there's many others. Um, you know,
1586
01:32:17.899 --> 01:32:20.399
and I think Bill, well, Bill was, you know, that's
1587
01:32:20.500 --> 01:32:23.220
actually one of the stories I usually tell about Bill
1588
01:32:23.300 --> 01:32:26.460
being the writer on the first, um, on the first
1589
01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:31.260
penciling job that, uh, that, um, um, Mike Mignola did
1590
01:32:31.279 --> 01:32:35.430
because Mike wanted to be an anchor. And I said,
1591
01:32:35.470 --> 01:32:37.909
what's wrong with you? You know, nobody wants to be
1592
01:32:37.949 --> 01:32:42.569
an anchor and, uh, any, any, And he did get
1593
01:32:42.609 --> 01:32:46.149
a couple of inking jobs up at Marvel, and then
1594
01:32:46.189 --> 01:32:50.729
he didn't get any follow-up jobs. And the inking he
1595
01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:55.500
did was okay, but it wasn't great. And I said, listen,
1596
01:32:55.560 --> 01:33:00.039
you know, Mike, the reason you got these inking jobs
1597
01:33:00.119 --> 01:33:04.010
is because your samples look terrific. And the samples are
1598
01:33:04.149 --> 01:33:08.010
all your pencils inked by you. So, you know, you
1599
01:33:08.050 --> 01:33:10.770
didn't do anything to embellish these other pencilers, but your
1600
01:33:10.909 --> 01:33:13.529
own samples are great. I said, why don't you, you know,
1601
01:33:14.260 --> 01:33:16.189
and he was, oh, I can't make a living. And
1602
01:33:16.300 --> 01:33:19.399
I'm in New York is so expensive. I'm from the
1603
01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:22.100
West Coast, blah, blah, blah. I said, so, you know, listen,
1604
01:33:22.659 --> 01:33:25.640
stop fighting me. I want you to do some penciling. And,
1605
01:33:25.659 --> 01:33:27.760
you know, so I said, do a job for me
1606
01:33:27.800 --> 01:33:30.680
for Marvel Fanfare. And it pays right in the half.
1607
01:33:30.739 --> 01:33:34.060
So it'll be good money. And he and then he said, well,
1608
01:33:34.079 --> 01:33:36.500
I don't like superheroes. I said, oh, come on, Bill.
1609
01:33:36.909 --> 01:33:38.100
I said, you know, I was trying, I said, I'll
1610
01:33:38.119 --> 01:33:40.199
tailor it to your every desire. You know, tell me
1611
01:33:40.239 --> 01:33:42.039
what you want to draw and I will do it.
1612
01:33:42.260 --> 01:33:45.100
I'll get a story for you that just, you know,
1613
01:33:45.119 --> 01:33:48.699
you know, hits all your, all your strong suits. So
1614
01:33:48.760 --> 01:33:50.800
he said, well, I don't like superheroes. I said, you know,
1615
01:33:50.859 --> 01:33:54.750
it's Marvel comics. What, that's all we do with superheroes.
1616
01:33:54.789 --> 01:33:55.449
What you don't like.
1617
01:33:57.270 --> 01:33:59.390
I said, come on, man, work with me here. I said,
1618
01:34:00.529 --> 01:34:03.250
there must be somebody there, you know, something drew you
1619
01:34:03.350 --> 01:34:06.289
to the comics industry and, and made you want to
1620
01:34:06.710 --> 01:34:09.859
even just be an inker, there must be a character.
1621
01:34:09.899 --> 01:34:12.199
He goes, well, I kind of like Submariner. I said, okay,
1622
01:34:12.619 --> 01:34:14.520
I get it. He doesn't wear the cape and the trunks,
1623
01:34:14.619 --> 01:34:18.479
but he's, you know, so he's, you know, sometimes more
1624
01:34:18.500 --> 01:34:19.359
of an anti-hero.
1625
01:34:20.229 --> 01:34:20.890
I said, what else?
1626
01:34:20.930 --> 01:34:23.130
He says, I like drawing animals. I said, great. Nobody
1627
01:34:23.170 --> 01:34:25.689
likes to draw animals, but good for you. I said,
1628
01:34:25.750 --> 01:34:29.430
anything else? He goes, sorcery, magic, something. I said, okay.
1629
01:34:29.449 --> 01:34:31.550
And I said, go home. I'll call you. And I
1630
01:34:31.590 --> 01:34:33.850
called up Bill Mantlo, and I said, Bill, I need
1631
01:34:33.869 --> 01:34:37.050
you to do a 10-page story for Fanfare. I got
1632
01:34:37.090 --> 01:34:40.689
this reluctant young artist. He's a pain in my ass,
1633
01:34:40.729 --> 01:34:43.579
but he's really talented. And, you know, I said, I
1634
01:34:43.619 --> 01:34:50.539
need the Submariner, animals, and sorcery. And he didn't say,
1635
01:34:50.699 --> 01:34:53.060
what the hell are you talking about? He said, okay, Al.
1636
01:34:54.770 --> 01:34:56.970
And he hung up. And a few days later, he
1637
01:34:57.010 --> 01:35:00.119
comes into the office with this great plot. for a
1638
01:35:00.119 --> 01:35:03.920
10-page Submariner story. I won't go into it now because
1639
01:35:04.020 --> 01:35:07.739
we may do another podcast in the future. But the
1640
01:35:07.779 --> 01:35:11.310
bottom line is it was a wonderful little story. Mike
1641
01:35:11.359 --> 01:35:15.050
drew the hell out of it. You know, Bill scripted it,
1642
01:35:15.090 --> 01:35:17.779
got it lettered. You know, Mike came in, picked it up,
1643
01:35:17.810 --> 01:35:21.109
took it home, inked it, looked great. And I said, Mike,
1644
01:35:22.170 --> 01:35:24.590
how do you feel about that? He says, you know,
1645
01:35:24.630 --> 01:35:27.350
I really enjoyed that. I said, good. Want to do more?
1646
01:35:27.430 --> 01:35:30.909
And he said, yeah, I do. So I said, okay.
1647
01:35:31.130 --> 01:35:35.750
I said, listen, so you want another Subby story? He says, yeah,
1648
01:35:35.810 --> 01:35:38.409
Submariner's good. I said, go home. I'll call you. And
1649
01:35:38.449 --> 01:35:41.369
I called Bill up and I said, Bill, can you
1650
01:35:41.409 --> 01:35:43.670
do me another Submariner story for that pain in my
1651
01:35:43.750 --> 01:35:46.979
ass Mike Mignola? And he said, yeah. He says, and
1652
01:35:46.989 --> 01:35:49.109
you know that he did a really nice job on that.
1653
01:35:49.220 --> 01:35:51.840
I said, I know. And he wants to be an inker.
1654
01:35:52.159 --> 01:35:55.479
And Bill said, what? Nobody wants to be an inker. Anyway, so...
1655
01:35:56.449 --> 01:35:59.449
So they did another one, and now I called up
1656
01:35:59.489 --> 01:36:00.880
Mike to come in and get it so he could
1657
01:36:00.939 --> 01:36:02.449
ink it, and he said, I don't want to ink it.
1658
01:36:02.579 --> 01:36:07.199
And I said, you're killing me. You don't want to
1659
01:36:07.279 --> 01:36:09.359
ink it. You want it to be an inker. So here,
1660
01:36:09.479 --> 01:36:12.520
ink yourself. He goes, no, no, I penciled it really tight,
1661
01:36:12.579 --> 01:36:15.649
and I feel like I'd just be repeating myself. I said, okay,
1662
01:36:15.659 --> 01:36:17.869
you know, rate and a half, Marvel fanfare. No, no.
1663
01:36:17.909 --> 01:36:22.229
He said, okay, suit yourself. So I got Craig Russell
1664
01:36:22.250 --> 01:36:23.250
to ink it, by the way.
1665
01:36:23.270 --> 01:36:23.750
Wow.
1666
01:36:25.489 --> 01:36:28.670
So there you go, another very good artist that he
1667
01:36:28.729 --> 01:36:32.189
did a beautiful job inking. And now Bill calls me
1668
01:36:32.270 --> 01:36:37.050
up and says, Al, you know that Mignola guy? I
1669
01:36:37.109 --> 01:36:39.409
really like his stuff. He did such a nice job
1670
01:36:39.470 --> 01:36:41.729
on those sub-histories. He said, you know, I've been wanting
1671
01:36:41.770 --> 01:36:47.180
to do a Rocket Raccoon miniseries. I said, who the
1672
01:36:47.220 --> 01:36:50.039
hell is Rocket Raccoon? I don't know if I, maybe
1673
01:36:50.060 --> 01:36:51.680
I'd already drawn him on that. Yeah, I must have
1674
01:36:51.699 --> 01:36:53.699
drawn him on that Hulk cover. So I did know
1675
01:36:53.739 --> 01:36:56.220
the character. But, you know, Bill created them in one
1676
01:36:56.260 --> 01:37:00.550
of the black and white magazines with Starhawk and whatever else.
1677
01:37:01.359 --> 01:37:04.890
And I said, really? Rocket Raccoon gets his own series?
1678
01:37:04.909 --> 01:37:07.569
He goes, yeah, I think it'd be great. So he,
1679
01:37:08.109 --> 01:37:11.029
you know, we got a hold of Mike. We said, Mike,
1680
01:37:11.090 --> 01:37:15.050
Bill wants to work with you on this series. And
1681
01:37:15.350 --> 01:37:17.550
it's got animals, which we know you love to draw.
1682
01:37:17.569 --> 01:37:20.310
And he says, oh, yeah. So he did it. And
1683
01:37:20.350 --> 01:37:25.670
it was terrific. It looked great. And... You know, and then,
1684
01:37:25.829 --> 01:37:28.430
you know, Mike is off and running. He becomes a superstar.
1685
01:37:29.210 --> 01:37:33.050
He was laying out the Hulk. He was doing covers
1686
01:37:33.109 --> 01:37:37.449
for Marvel. He's doing covers for DC. He might have,
1687
01:37:37.470 --> 01:37:39.409
I don't know if he kicked off Bob Harris because
1688
01:37:39.449 --> 01:37:42.239
he was doing covers for DC, but I know he
1689
01:37:42.260 --> 01:37:44.560
was doing some of the X books, the X book
1690
01:37:44.619 --> 01:37:47.619
covers at Marvel and so on. And the next thing
1691
01:37:47.640 --> 01:37:50.579
you know, he's over at Dark Horse and doing creator
1692
01:37:50.640 --> 01:37:54.949
own stuff and creates, you know, Hell boy. And, you know,
1693
01:37:55.310 --> 01:37:57.890
I assume he's now making a lot of money off
1694
01:37:57.930 --> 01:37:59.710
the movies. So I hope so anyway.
1695
01:38:00.430 --> 01:38:03.949
And he's still doing stuff and he's still writing a lot.
1696
01:38:04.750 --> 01:38:06.300
He doesn't draw as much as he used to, but
1697
01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:10.760
he certainly does a lot of writing stuff. No, that's fantastic. Outstanding, man.
1698
01:38:11.000 --> 01:38:13.140
So there's another one of the guys I gave their
1699
01:38:13.159 --> 01:38:17.680
first job to. There's others. I gave Rick Leonardi his
1700
01:38:17.819 --> 01:38:21.500
first job. I gave Kevin Nolan his first job. Wow.
1701
01:38:22.140 --> 01:38:24.579
I like to say, this will be the last comment,
1702
01:38:24.640 --> 01:38:27.329
but I like to say that I got so many
1703
01:38:27.609 --> 01:38:31.989
really talented young artists into the business. Oh, Brett Levin
1704
01:38:32.149 --> 01:38:35.520
was another guy I worked with early on and gave him,
1705
01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:36.260
I think.
1706
01:38:36.060 --> 01:38:37.680
Kevin and Brett are going to be a terrific on
1707
01:38:37.699 --> 01:38:38.600
with you. So that's cool.
1708
01:38:39.159 --> 01:38:41.899
Yeah. Always, always. And, and to a certain degree, I
1709
01:38:41.920 --> 01:38:46.460
was responsible for Ron friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, shooter
1710
01:38:46.520 --> 01:38:49.329
went to a show in Pittsburgh and, came back with
1711
01:38:49.369 --> 01:38:52.510
his samples, and I said, this guy's really good. He goes, yeah, yeah,
1712
01:38:52.750 --> 01:38:55.529
he does animation. He works for an animation studio there.
1713
01:38:56.409 --> 01:39:00.069
And one time, I think Wheezy needed an artist for
1714
01:39:00.109 --> 01:39:02.770
an issue, and nobody seemed to be available. And I said,
1715
01:39:02.789 --> 01:39:05.149
wait a minute, I got pages in the drawer, and
1716
01:39:05.189 --> 01:39:07.670
I hauled out these Ron Friends pages. He said, oh, yeah,
1717
01:39:07.710 --> 01:39:10.390
he's good. And so he did a job for her,
1718
01:39:10.470 --> 01:39:15.810
and then countless jobs for Marvel over the years. So So, yeah,
1719
01:39:15.869 --> 01:39:17.550
all these guys, you know, but what I say is
1720
01:39:17.590 --> 01:39:21.430
I got so many talented artists into the business that
1721
01:39:21.449 --> 01:39:23.229
they no longer had any room in it for me.
1722
01:39:23.489 --> 01:39:32.359
So out I went. That's only half in jest. I
1723
01:39:32.439 --> 01:39:33.140
understand that.
1724
01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:37.239
And I believe me, I've started people in radio that
1725
01:39:37.279 --> 01:39:40.750
have surpassed me in their broadcasting career. So I get it.
1726
01:39:41.439 --> 01:39:46.069
There you go. Yeah. Outstanding, Al. Outstanding.
1727
01:39:46.890 --> 01:39:49.810
Well, seriously, man, this is great. I really, really appreciate it.
1728
01:39:50.029 --> 01:39:52.390
My God, Al, this is going to be like, I think,
1729
01:39:52.430 --> 01:39:56.720
almost a four-part podcast because of the directions we went into,
1730
01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:57.840
but all great.
1731
01:39:58.460 --> 01:39:58.880
Okay.
1732
01:39:58.899 --> 01:40:01.979
Looking forward to seeing you in two weeks at Terrificon.
1733
01:40:02.420 --> 01:40:05.899
And be sure to get my– if you're breaking this
1734
01:40:05.920 --> 01:40:12.489
down into multi-podcasts, Give my solicitation for commissions at each one, please.
1735
01:40:12.890 --> 01:40:15.529
You got it. You got it. I'm happy to do that, Al.
1736
01:40:15.850 --> 01:40:17.449
Got to keep my hand in. Thanks a lot, man.
1737
01:40:17.649 --> 01:40:20.699
Oh, 100%, man. No, we want you out there, and
1738
01:40:20.720 --> 01:40:22.699
the fans want you out there, and it's great to
1739
01:40:22.739 --> 01:40:25.100
know that they can still get great work from Al Milgram,
1740
01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:25.680
so thank you.
1741
01:40:26.359 --> 01:40:29.050
Okay, well, I appreciate the compliment, and thank you very much.