Daredevil's 80s Hell's Kitchen Romita Nocenti Macchio

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Hi, everybody, Welcome back time again for word Balloon, the
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Comic Book Conversation Show. John stauntris here with another wonderful
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conversation from terrific on, this time focusing on Daredevil in
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the eighties and specifically the run of Annacenti and John
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Remedia Junior. Now, they came on at a very pivotal time.
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They followed Frank Miller and the Born Again story that
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had such an impact on the title Frank Miller, Dave
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Masseukelli and there was the end at the end of
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that story. How do you follow up with that? It's
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a monthly book. You got to come out with a
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book next month. Anne and John found a way with
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incredible characters and villains and a great perspective on New
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York that was different than Hell's Kitchen as far as
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the way Frank had Matt running around Hell's Kitchen. There
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was a hell of a lot more to talk about.
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They infused New York nightlife. We talk about the creation
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of Typhoid, Mary and the villain Shotgun, and a whole
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bunch more, including some crazy stories about Ralph Ann and
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John representing Marvel on a trip to Paris. How about
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that well it gets a little freaky. I'll let them
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tell the details and the Senni, John Amita Junior and
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of course the great Ralph Maccio talking about Daredevil on
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today's Word Balloon. Word Balloon is brought to you by
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now where the conversation continues in print. This is a
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conversation I've wanted to I'm sure all of you as well,
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because this is such an interesting period for Daredevil. My
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name is John Santras. I go it's a podcast called
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word Balloon. This is actually my twentieth year of doing
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the podcast, and I've had the pleasure of talking to
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the editor of this era of Jared Devil, Ralph Bacchio, everybody.
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But I'm very, very excited to have the opportunity to
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ask questions of this incredible writer who had one of
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the toughest jobs, and I'll be asking about that specifically
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but the great Anna SETI also a great editor as
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well as write. So I don't know how this started
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because again we have to set what the Daredevil's status
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quo was. You all know, Magic Kelly and Frank Miller
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Born Again. Amazing story, but it kind of ends, and
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it ends with Matt and you know, and I'm blanking
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of Karen Karen thank you, and Matt's a fry cook
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in a diner and Karen is recovering, but it's the
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end their walk off and sadly, if you got to
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come up with another issue and stuff? So how and
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I'll start with Ralph editorially? Were there other creative teams
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that were pitching you? How did we get to Anna
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and Johnny?
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Well?
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You know at one point well as part going back
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to Born Again, that was another thing I had to
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deal with.
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But yes, Dannie O'Neil had a.
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Nice run on Daredevil and then the last issue he
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did he did with Maza Kelly as well, because he actually.
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Started with David Brown.
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And then he left, and then I was kind of
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stuck myself.
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I said, who am I going to get to follow
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Denny who was also.
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A big name.
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So I called Frank up and I said, Frank, you've
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got to.
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Have more Daredevil stories, and he said, give me five
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minutes to think about it, and he called me.
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Back and that's how Born Again was born.
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Okay, so he had never worked.
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With Maza Kelly, but he wanted to find out.
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He goes, do you think David would want to work
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the way I work, you know, turning in pages this way?
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And then I said, he'd love to work with you.
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So they became a famous team.
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And then they went off and did The Batman Year
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one and that was also great. But after Frank left,
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there was everybody was very intimidated after Born Again. And
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I think I first spoke to Steve Engelhart okay, but
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something happened. There was scheduling conflicts or things didn't quite
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work out. And then I spoke to Anne, and Anne
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was not intimidated by following Frank at all. And I
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think that's partly because Anne was not a real comic
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book fan. If I remember, I do answer to an
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ad in the paper.
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Right, yeah, I looked at Warrivel.
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So I think the reason I wasn't intimidated was because
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I was young and stupid. I mean, that is the
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only way to explain it because in hindsight, I'm like
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Frank Miller, you know. But the because we were all
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in the office back then, because it was pre internet,
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and Frank would come in with his daredeble pages, and
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Bilson kevinch would come in with his probably Moon Night
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at the time, and we had Walt Simon's in bringing
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in his pages.
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So we were all.
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Excited about all the artwork as it came in.
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So of course I knew there was something special, especially
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I remember, not only because I was a film student,
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Remember that he was bringing all these Japanese influences in
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and he was obviously like in love with like Corasawa
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films and the Ninja films. And what really hit me
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was the big square eyes, like the way he could
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like do the soulful eyes of characters.
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And so I mean I was I definitely loved his work.
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And then I remember Ralph said that he was doing
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some test fill ins to secretly, like I thought I
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was just doing a fillain, but to secretly see what
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we would do. So Barry Windsorsmith and I did an
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issue where I looked at what Frank had done realized,
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you know that Frank looked that well didn't come later
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actually that I really started studying who Daredeubel was. But
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so Barry and I did this story, and for some
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reason it just clicked. And my memory is that Steve
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Abelar wanted to take Daredubel to the West Coast.
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Maybe yes, and.
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So so I always thought, well, maybe it's because me
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and Johnny are New Yorkers. We live in New York.
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We're gonna be on the streets of New York. We
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can just look at everything and pull from.
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The streets of New York.
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That it actually then worked out.
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But I remember at first, I just did before Johnny
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came on the book. I just did weird villain after
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a weird villain.
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It was like rock Good and then some alligator dude and.
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Some Albido dude.
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And then one day Ralph said, you're not paying attention
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to your hero.
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You know, you're just doing We're going after we are.
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Going, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
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And then I.
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Looked at how Frek had set up. Oh, he likes
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crazy women. And then luckily this guy came on the book,
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and together we created maybe the craziest female ever in.
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All of our more history.
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What a great character John Remedia Junior. Everybody joined it.
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Now, so I wanted to get into Typhoid.
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We were making taking bets on who what time Johnny
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would get here.
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No, honestly, I can't stop, am I ralph Am? I
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remembering right? Because truly to maybe advertised like right away
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there were images of Typhoid, Mary. I know I've seen
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a because I actually I showed it to Johnny. Yeah,
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the house at exactly did that come up?
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Then?
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Obviously I came out before the book.
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I did like a pool of.
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Blood and a hard shaped pool of blood or something
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something cornball like that.
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I don't remember that all right, So obviously, well I
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want to know from the ground up building Mary, and
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you've done a great job explaining just the generals. But
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like you know, this is MTV era, this is music
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video era, and she had such a not pretenders. I
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can't even think of a good example of a rocker
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that that Mary would represent.
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Maybe you guys should name the.
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Apocaphal story that Johnny will tell me if I'm.
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Full of ship, wasn't it?
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It was actually a someone who was dating who stepped
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out to go out in the clubs and was wearing typhoids.
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That's exactly the outfit kids. So it was I can't
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even think for it.
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She came out looking like that, Oh shit, don't move,
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and then I pulled her and I said, I think
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we got a visual then we don't.
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Yeah, facts, Oh my god, wait for you Internet.
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And that's where it came from. That's the fact that
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she was a kind. So that's where.
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The the kind of everything else.
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I take no credit for designing this outfit.
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That's what it looked like, everything except the magennis, which
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were probably in.
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The closet somewhere.
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Did pal Did ever ask you, Johnny if like, you know,
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when creating Harley, because I kind of see a symbiotic
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typhoon Mary into Harley hardly visually.
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She was asking for specific so.
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I was asking for the split is because I wanted
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a way too, that's cool, you know.
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And there were all these weird shit we added in,
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like the temperature was a little higher than normal.
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So she was always famish, you know.
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We had a lot of weird stuff in there.
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But the thing people think that writers come up with everything,
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but it's Johnny would come in. I remember one day
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he came in and he goes, I. I saw this
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guy and he's standing on a car and his name
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is Shotgun and he looks like.
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This, and he showed me a sketch, and I went, going.
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In the book, john should tell you how he got
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on the book.
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I wanted to know Ralph exactly. So, yeah, Johnny, because
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Guys was your first regular book, right, Uh?
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I guess I was not doing full pencils until that point,
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and I was fed up. I was ready to walk
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back into advertising, which I give my degree in.
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And he stopped me and said, before you.
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Decide, because I told him I was upset, and he said,
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before you decide, I have like a proposal for you.
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You can do this, this and this.
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You can work with Dan full pencils and you'll have
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some plot input and I'll get you the anchor you want.
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This is the better story. I said, really, any anchor
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I want?
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All right? Yeah, Al Williamson and he calls up.
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Alan said, and I said, yes, you really you shouldn't me.
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Does everyone know prior to Marvel Aliampson's history, the smattering
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of audience on the.
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Giants and illustrator.
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Yeah, so what a really nice man.
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Yes, And he fixed everything that was the best thing.
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And so fast o, yes, he was. All I know
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is the books about comics. Pretty fast jumped on your
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arc Jounty and all. Because really I'm like, well that's
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not John Ramita Spider Man art. That's no, that's Junior.
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Well Jesus, look what he's doing with daredebl My god.
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So yeah, that was that was excellent and like again
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Frank had him in well, I guess he was still
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in Hell's kitchen, but he's cookie at fry guy. He
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launched his giant house and everything. He's not a lawyer anymore,
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so you know, building him back up to recognizable. I mean,
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how did how did you?
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One of the things I remember is that like Dannie
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o'needle was one of my mentors. He gave me my
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very first story in Bizarre Adventures, and you know, we
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always talked about how I was like Danny has like
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I do some journalism. I'd like to be a journalist.
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And Danny was the.
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Little one put it in Dareduble, go out on the streets,
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go to Hell's kitchen, look around and put it in Narble.
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So so Daredevill is when you when you're giving a book,
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you look at what came before.
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You respect what came before.
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Elements like that Frank had set up dared.
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Oble had likes crazy girls with the electri Thic and
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he also has the rescue thing with Karen, and so
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there were a.
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Lot of things he set up that you just go cool.
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You don't mess with something that's great, so you build
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on Frank.
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And then Johnny had this.
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You have to understand the artist's influences of the stories
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so profoundly, because Johnny could draw anything. And then when
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we were talking, I don't know how we got there.
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I think when all Marvel.
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Was going to hell and Johnny was like, yeah, but
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ma Fisto. He's in this spandex thing.
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And I want to redesign with Fisto so.
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That he has tendrils of evil, you know, creeping everywhere.
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And I went yes. And then Ralph let.
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Us do it.
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Why did you let us?
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Because I got him drunk. I don think I got
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chanced to get him. I said, I can't.
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I can't draw out the devil with souls on his feet.
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And spandex pants.
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I can't.
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I'm sorry. He says, well, what do you want to do?
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And I played around and you let me, it's very demonic, yes,
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very very kind.
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Of lizard like.
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It was just a long tongue and it was a
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fantastic fit.
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And then one day, speaking of religion, we're all what
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our Catholic raised?
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So one day Johnny.
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Comes in and said, wouldn't it be cool to do
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a story a beer with God?
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And I went, what about a.
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Beer with the devil?
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The fact the Fisto was involved with it, it was
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a perfect transition, I said, I did it. I wrote
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a one act play in college that nobody can pay
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attention to him, and it was Beer with God. The
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press guy walks into a bar. He is ready to
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kill himself, he's just over the moon with misery. He
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sits down, He's gonna drink himself to the.
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Point where you can go jump off the bridge.
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And God comes in and sits down next to him
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and talks him off the bridge. So I said, I
301
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got an idea, and she said, well, wait a minute,
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we're working with the fisto, how about but beer with
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the devil?
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And we co applauded that one because when I look
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at it and I'm like, I think.
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The brother churning on brother, like the Canada thing. I
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think that might have been Johnny's idea.
308
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Like it's forty years ago, it's very hard to remember,
309
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but I know a lot of the stuff and Darren
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omal came out of Johnny's brain, and I remember some
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specifics like that.
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Scary, I hate false humility, stop that ship.
313
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No No, and then and then also the one.
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That you captured so beautifully was because at the time
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that we were all scared of nuclear power. Sure, everybody
316
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was protesting against nuclear power because you know, the fifties
317
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had done a number on nuclear power. While all mutating,
318
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that's really excent came.
319
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Up from the y that's gonna help, right, Yeah, well,
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and drop off and Reagan we're not talking. I mean
321
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Mike that you know, Sting did the song and Time
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magazine at the two backs of the world leaders not
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looking at each other. No, we were scared. I mean
324
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it's much scarier now, frankly.
325
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Yeah, the ridiculous thing that we used to all crawl
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under our desks because of the Bob that So, you know,
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I say to Johnny, like, let's do something about that.
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And the idea that the little kid would build a
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bomb shelter lance.
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But he really was angry because he was his father
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was explosive.
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And then Johnny brought in these drawings of Lance and
333
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his dad that were just like spot On and I think,
334
00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.080
isn't I think that guy is in the new Daredevil series.
335
00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:26.360
Well, the Cashman.
336
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There's a guy Cashman, and he's a he's a bodyguard,
337
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.519
and that's that's that's eventually be No, it's Bullet.
338
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His name is cash Okay, Wow, jesus.
339
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.720
It was so easy to edit there.
340
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That's just because all I had to do is let
341
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them do what they wanted, just unleash them. I think
342
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the only thing I didn't let john do is he
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always wanted to break their devil's nose every time I
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break his nose, and Johnny, why not break I don't
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want to go.
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If that goes back to Punisher, I hated the fact
347
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that the punish it looked like Superman with a slightly
348
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different haircut. I have to he doesn't have superpowers and
349
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Matt Martinch didn't have superpowered.
350
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You get hitting the nose, you're gonna break your nose broken.
351
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Now we'll do it. We're punishing, but now we can't.
352
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.400
Aesthetically, Ralph was that interesting? You didn't want to see
353
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him busted with a bust and face.
354
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I just thought Matt had a handsome face, and I
355
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just didn't want to see ybody.
356
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I knew everybody.
357
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I knew everybody I knew related to a broken nose.
358
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I broke my nose, and you know what, they ended
359
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.599
up doing it and they broke didn't David and Matt
360
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Fraction Breaky's nose? He went out forever with the band
361
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aid on the verge of his nose. You were just pressy.
362
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So that's about the only thing I told him.
363
00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.640
Not Everything else these guys came up with was fabulous.
364
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It was incredible.
365
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:46.920
Do you guys have questions?
366
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I hope you do, regardless, come on up to the thing.
367
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:56.240
Absolutely, man, Hey, I have one for one for John?
368
00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:58.039
What about Ralph.
369
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Or Alice?
370
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Ralph Weiser?
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And I think it was I listen to an interview
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you did with the City and I think you mentioned
373
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I used to go out to the Pyramid Club or danceteria. Yes,
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00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.799
I was wondering if there was anyone from that scene
375
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that you have experienced with that made their way into
376
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the comics or would.
377
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Have you know what the weird thing is is that
378
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I used to go to the East Village like Pyramid
379
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and Wah Wah Hut and whatever.
380
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And I met a very young comic. He was like
381
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a stand up comic.
382
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:33.839
He used to just walk into a spotlight with a
383
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cigarette and go, my name is Dick, Detective Dick or
384
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:40.559
something like that. And then he started doing this routine
385
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.640
in the wah Wah Hut with another actor and I
386
00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:45.839
ended up meeting him one night. And it was this
387
00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:48.640
young actor and I was like, you know, the East
388
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.680
Village back then, everybody who was a punk musician or
389
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.720
an artist or so you tell people they wrote you
390
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.240
wrote comics and they'd go water comics, you know.
391
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:01.079
And then this comic he said, oh my god, I
392
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.680
read your dar level comics.
393
00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:04.759
And his name was Steve B Seting.
394
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.160
Oh that's fantastic.
395
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.160
And I have been friends with Steve ever since.
396
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:11.880
And him and his wife Joe Andres, who were performance
397
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.319
artists in the East Village, actually read and loved Daredevil,
398
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.200
and they were the only people in the entire downtown
399
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.519
scene that even knew what a Marvel comic was or
400
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:23.160
read them.
401
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.799
And so we had that fan and Steve.
402
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:31.519
VI Seing, that's amazing. Nothing in that set of years
403
00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.440
that she's talking about. But prior to that, my friends
404
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:37.680
would go to clubs all the time. And where's you're going?
405
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:41.519
Every place you can imagine. I can't remember half the names,
406
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:43.880
but a lot on Long Island, a lot in Manhattan.
407
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.880
But we went to studio with it before a couple
408
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.480
of times, but we could only get in on Tuesday
409
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:50.839
because we didn't look good enough to week.
410
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:53.359
That's a true story.
411
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.200
But I was asked to draw a character that looked
412
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like a club girl, and girl that seemed to be
413
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.240
at every club and every night we went was Grace Jones.
414
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.720
Oh my god, who looked like she would look now,
415
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.359
would be perfectly. She'd fit into everything now, stunning woman
416
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:13.799
with short hair. So I would do a couple of
417
00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:14.519
sketches when.
418
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.480
I got home. She even had a disco ball around
419
00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:16.839
her neck.
420
00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:21.000
And then asked me to create a character based on
421
00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.519
a club girl, said Grace Jones. Unfortunately, Neil Bogart that
422
00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.440
shit had turned it into Bo Derek, which ruined it
423
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:28.799
for me.
424
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.200
But there were so many characters.
425
00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.319
At clubs that you could not help but draw them,
426
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:35.440
and I'd go home.
427
00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:37.480
I do sketches of characters and put them in the background.
428
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.880
You couldn't every color, creed everything you can imagine. Go
429
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:42.759
to a club in Manhattan, go to a club in Queens,
430
00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:44.920
and you saw everything. That's the best thing about New
431
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.839
York is you You're born into the world. You can't
432
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.599
help but see the world. So the characters are there
433
00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:52.200
for you to draw. I take no credit, but it's
434
00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.640
designing some of these characters. Even Shotgun, I copied it off.
435
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.920
A guy standing on a truck. No, and I got
436
00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.640
his name from the soul long Shotgun by Junior Walker
437
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:02.319
and the All Stars.
438
00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:05.720
Anybody old enough like me knows that song. And his
439
00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:06.880
name was j R.
440
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.319
Walker And I said, Ralph, it's.
441
00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:11.039
Walker for Junior Walker in the All Stars. And he
442
00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:12.160
gives me this blank stack.
443
00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.519
Okay, okay, let me sing for about a ten minutes.
444
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.960
But this is again, you take it from real life.
445
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.799
That's the best thing about And this is why Daredevil
446
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.759
is a great character, because the superhero character is in it,
447
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.240
but he's still a street level character. And you add
448
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:40.359
reality to fantasy and you get a nice balance, and
449
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.960
you get this brilliant writer here, and you have a
450
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:43.839
brilliant series.
451
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.480
And we were able to combine reality with fantasy and also.
452
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:53.240
Ralph, like he claims he didn't stop us from doing anything,
453
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:55.559
but he he whenever I would start a plot in
454
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.240
with some kind of bone, boneheaded thing in it, he
455
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.119
would definitely And very early on when I was doing.
456
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.839
The weird Villain, Weird Villain, we were villain, and Ralph said,
457
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:07.039
you really have to pay attention to your hero, like
458
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.440
he's his name is on the book.
459
00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:11.240
You're gonna have to pay attention.
460
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:12.799
And I don't know, it's conversation.
461
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:14.440
I don't know what was wrong with me.
462
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.559
I just I just wasn't paying attention to Darnebill for
463
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.880
the first like five issues. And then so Proup came
464
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.000
in at key points, and that's a great editor, like
465
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.720
let people do what they want, get out of their
466
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.920
way if it's selling and people are liking it, and
467
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:33.359
step in with when something just.
468
00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.759
Doesn't ring right, you know. But I still wish you'd
469
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.319
let you would let us break the noose?
470
00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:43.319
Was it always gentle though? In in terms of or
471
00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.440
was it hey, no, come on, let's go man Vernock.
472
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:46.839
Let's you know what kind of guy? Were you rough
473
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:47.240
with it with that?
474
00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:47.440
No?
475
00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:50.440
I was. I liked that I prefer the character to
476
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.680
stick and was so talented, and so is John that
477
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:55.440
I'm not that kind of editor.
478
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.599
I mean, if if I had that kind of reaction,
479
00:22:57.799 --> 00:22:59.200
I would not have had them on the book.
480
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.839
If they were on the book is because I wanted
481
00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.599
them on the book and I was going to be
482
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:04.400
nice to everybody.
483
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.359
So yeah, that's Coope. I don't think I was harsh.
484
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.839
But the Mefisto, the Mefisto run, Yeah, had so much
485
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.599
pot had so many possibilities do it. And the trick
486
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.000
is not the trick, but the temptation is to go
487
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.799
all in on this is this is the devil, right,
488
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.160
And she didn't jump into that the way the average
489
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.359
writer would do it. She held back a little bit,
490
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:27.240
was a little bit of a subtlety to it. And
491
00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.200
the fact that Daredevil kisses gets kissed by Mephisto at
492
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.079
a bar. There was a big with the devil and
493
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:35.480
then he thinks it's a beautiful woman and he's making
494
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:36.240
out with Mephisto.
495
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:39.720
You can't make this up. This is real, This is bull.
496
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:40.519
She can't make it up.
497
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:41.000
She did.
498
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.200
And you know something else, my parents, you know, we
499
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.359
didn't really have comics when we were kids.
500
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.000
They were kind of frowned upon I'm like Johnny's family.
501
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.720
It was a comic book family.
502
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:51.119
Sure, you know.
503
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.240
So my parents like they would buy one, but they'd
504
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.079
put it in a box and they would never read it.
505
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:59.480
And then the New York Times.
506
00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.640
Did on a Beer with the Devil. Did you see that?
507
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.039
They did a piece on the Beer with the Devil
508
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.519
in the New York Times. And my father finally went
509
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.480
because he read the Times every day.
510
00:24:11.640 --> 00:24:13.759
Sure, he was like, what are you doing in the
511
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:14.559
New York Times?
512
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.759
You know? Oh, your comics, you know.
513
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.359
So my dad, who's still with us, thank god, he
514
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.440
is now ninety six years old. Wow, and he has
515
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:30.960
a right there framed hallowed spot Annie, his daughter and
516
00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:33.400
Nocenti in the New York Times.
517
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:35.799
Oh it's beautiful. That is off.
518
00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:37.960
See if I can dig it up for you. Because
519
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.920
we were in the New York Times twice. One time
520
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.200
it was this shout out to what a great story
521
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:47.440
that was. And the other time was this guy Joe
522
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:50.160
Queen and who wrote a cover piece for the New
523
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:55.799
York Times magazine about how comics were way too violent, they.
524
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:56.799
Shouldn't be for kids.
525
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:01.240
And you were a splash page of from the Hell
526
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.279
Stories of the Dentist.
527
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.960
Oh, my god, it is the opening thing and it says.
528
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:13.880
Drillings and even the women are getting into the violence
529
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.640
something and it's got this like incredibly violent thing. But
530
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:21.440
he obviously didn't read the comics, because even though the
531
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:26.400
comics had action and violence in them, the underlying, the
532
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:29.839
underlying thing under a lot of comics is the sense
533
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.680
of right and wrong. Of course, you do the right
534
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:34.200
thing and the whole that whole thing. So you know,
535
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.839
he just was going for like a quick you know, click.
536
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.400
Okay. I can't take credit for that dentist thing.
537
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.240
I had a dentist as a child named doctor Argentieri
538
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:45.440
who drilled without noekaing.
539
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:51.160
Oh my god, god, the true story. And we didn't
540
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.119
know if there was no kaing.
541
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.839
He just says it's for babies, and he would drill
542
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:57.519
and we would cry, and he said, don't.
543
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.119
Be a baby and so on.
544
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:00.920
So when.
545
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:04.599
We had a chance to do that dentist thing, I jumped.
546
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.400
In demonically, budget Teery, I don't think you allowed me
547
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:07.960
to use the name.
548
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:08.720
Did we use the name?
549
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.920
I don't think we would.
550
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:15.039
He would have drilled me again, that son of a bitch.
551
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:18.240
Although my pain level.
552
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.559
Was significantly hire than all the rest of my friends.
553
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:22.640
I learned how to take a punch. That's where the
554
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.799
Coconos is talking about. Yeah, I just had a core
555
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:27.680
question for you.
556
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:34.039
Uh you said, uh, Typhoid. Mary's based on an ex girlfriend.
557
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.519
It's correct. How did it work out.
558
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:39.720
Today?
559
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.400
She's I don't know. I've only knows. I got very
560
00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:46.480
lucky one time. And she's chewing on her dinner right
561
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:47.200
now as we're sitting.
562
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:47.640
Yeah.
563
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.000
You know, one thing I wanted to mention is that,
564
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:55.200
in addition to us working together, we are very good friends.
565
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:56.200
We'd go way way back.
566
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.359
John and I started at Marvel about the same time.
567
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:02.160
In the Vincent the I'm doing art corrections right, your
568
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:03.240
father was the art director.
569
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.480
I did, but I did the British the British books
570
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.160
when they used to take the Marvel the US editions
571
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:10.720
break him into two books.
572
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.119
I had to do a new cover sketch and a
573
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:14.440
new splash sketcher.
574
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:17.839
Yes, and so somehow John and I the first thing
575
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.599
we worked on together was the second Kiss booker Steve
576
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.960
Gerber you know, wasn't able to do it. They did
577
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.279
the first one that it's famous for having real kiss
578
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:29.079
blood and the printing plates. So John and I wound
579
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.640
up doing it and it came on very well. And
580
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.279
the problem was that, if I remember correctly, Bill o'coyn, who.
581
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:39.119
Was Kiss's manager at that time, he wanted.
582
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:42.759
All of the original artwork, and Marvel said no, because
583
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:46.119
that goes back to the artist, and we were actually
584
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:47.720
going to do Kisses a monthly comic.
585
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.440
And then Bill Cory scuttled the whole thing up.
586
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:52.720
He scuttled it just because he wanted all the artworks,
587
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:54.680
and Marvel said, look, if you want to buy it
588
00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.240
from John, or if you want to you know, have
589
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:00.680
copies made whatever, But no, he was insistent they get it.
590
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.680
And then and of course that one lead us into
591
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:05.200
the well.
592
00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:07.440
And the other thing I want to mention is during
593
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.440
the eighties we used to go down to the Caribbean.
594
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:20.440
John and Ankevichopodyanski very well shared right, and we.
595
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.839
Would spend a week down in Saint Thomas and just
596
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:23.319
hang out.
597
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.119
John would be on the beach with Billson Kevitch and
598
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:28.599
they both be sketching, and they'd be sometimes they'd be
599
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.319
sketching the same thing. Because their art styles were so different,
600
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:32.839
it would look completely different.
601
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:39.279
And the other thing is because John went out to
602
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.039
all the clubs and everything. When we would go into
603
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:42.799
a into the.
604
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:45.559
Town and we would go to a club, I'm socially
605
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.559
very awkward, but I would just hang onto John because
606
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:51.440
he knew he just would draw people to him.
607
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:53.119
He knew how to get a table, he knew what
608
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:54.640
to tip waiters, he knew how, he.
609
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:56.680
Knew the whole thing, and I tried to learn from him.
610
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.920
I'm still socially awkward, but John was just fabulous and
611
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:01.000
that I love that.
612
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:08.519
Missus remedia is like responding to That's fantastic, That's great Jesus.
613
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:11.960
So like again, like when did you start working with Anne?
614
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:18.119
I think Anne was on staff and it was it was, Yes,
615
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.160
it was Danny O'Neill gave me.
616
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.920
My first Yeah, I want to hear more about your metrics.
617
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.279
I mean, Denny was Jenny and I were both frustrated journalists,
618
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.119
and he he sort of showed me is.
619
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:32.839
What was it called No Hope and Crimeality?
620
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:33.279
Yes?
621
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:36.519
Yes, And he said he says, you want to be
622
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.519
a journalist. He says, go out on the streets in
623
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:38.880
New York.
624
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:39.680
You see something.
625
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:42.119
So I would go to Times Square and just sit there.
626
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.839
I saw a legal aid clinic and I thought, oh,
627
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:46.359
I'll take Matt's license away and.
628
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:48.799
Put him to work there. Beautiful, you know, I saw
629
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.519
some kids skateboarding. They're going in.
630
00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:53.240
Everything that you see in the street became part of
631
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:53.720
the comic.
632
00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.640
And and then Mark Brunwold, after the Denny story, Mark
633
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:03.160
Ruenwold gave me the the assignment to kill Spider Woman.
634
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.440
And it was back when I didn't quite I was
635
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.440
so new to the game. I didn't understand that death
636
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.240
was not a good thing. And back then death was death.
637
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.680
They had Gwen Stacy had died, she wasn't brought back.
638
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:21.960
Phoenix had died, she wasn't brought back Ben Uncle Ben,
639
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.319
and he still was never brought back, but they brought
640
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:26.119
up everyone else.
641
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.279
But so when you killed a character, and I got
642
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:32.359
all these letters like how could you kill Spider Woman?
643
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.359
And it was just a real lesson for me in
644
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:37.559
how close you got.
645
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.880
And then of course I started getting so close to
646
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.400
Daredevil that I would literally see.
647
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.480
Him up on buildings like wow, and then where would
648
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:47.680
he do and where would he jump?
649
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:49.839
And how would he swing and what would he swing to?
650
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:55.400
You know, so it becomes really personal. And then after
651
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:58.880
I did the Spider woman. That's when Ralph did the
652
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:04.000
trial fill ins and me and Barry won the lottery.
653
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.200
But then we had Lewis Williams right yes, and then
654
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:14.680
we had a Keith Geffen and Todd McFarlane. Todd McFarlane
655
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:16.680
will come up to me and cons and say you
656
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.160
gave me my start in comics and I said no,
657
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.720
I didn't, and I'll say, no, you did, really, And
658
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.519
I guess he means that or who knows what, And
659
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:28.400
you know, there's a lot of stuff that because it's
660
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:29.440
so long ago, we.
661
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:30.480
Don't remember anything.
662
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:32.400
Where was you an assistant editor on the X Men
663
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:33.119
on the Wheezy?
664
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.400
Then I became so I went from I was Jim
665
00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.200
Shooter's assistant.
666
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.960
Jim and I always liked to joke.
667
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.240
That I was such a terrible editor, such a terrible secretary,
668
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.599
that he moved me over to Al Williams al Milgram's
669
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.119
office as assistant.
670
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:53.720
You know, and we joke all the time.
671
00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:57.039
But then once in a while I'd say, Jim, do
672
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.920
you realize that I was a terrible secretary on purpose?
673
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:03.039
I didn't want to be a secretary.
674
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:09.440
So then al Milgrim and then Louise Simonson and Louise Simonson.
675
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.160
Was so brilliant. I just became a clone of Weezy.
676
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:16.559
Oh this is how you handle talent and get everything
677
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:17.599
you want out of them.
678
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:19.480
Yeah, very good.
679
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:22.880
Well again, that's that is great. I wanted to ask
680
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:24.799
you about working with Weezy and everything in it.
681
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:26.799
I mean, she she had this way.
682
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.680
People would come in and somehow she'd be telling them
683
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.079
what was what, mostly Chris, what was wrong with the
684
00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.119
structure of their plot, and they would and she would
685
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:39.759
do it in a way that they would get so excited.
686
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:42.880
And I kind of learned how to get what you
687
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:44.799
want through kindness.
688
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.160
Yeah, that's the main thing she taught me.
689
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.160
She also taught me how get out of the way,
690
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.359
you know, don't mess with talent if they know what
691
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:56.680
they're doing. So I had books anything Larry Hammer wrote,
692
00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.240
anything Joe Duffy wrote. You didn't have to touch Joe
693
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.880
Duffy's Star Wars. You didn't have to touch Larry Helmet's work,
694
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.119
you know, and most of the artists too, but al
695
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.440
Willie al Milgrim, you know, I used to just look
696
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.000
over his shoulder or Johnny's dad, watch them go over
697
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.039
layouts and learn how to talk about layouts.
698
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:19.200
Now AI can lay out.
699
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:25.200
Yeah, you know, Johnny, we talked about AI on my podcast. Yeah,
700
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.400
I know, and you're discussed the look on your face
701
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.759
for the audio audience, you know says it all. But no, yeah,
702
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.079
all three of the thoughts on AI, because honestly, I
703
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.200
still think there's this creative spark you're gonna come up
704
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.599
with a story in that AI is not. And I
705
00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.720
understand that it learns from what it's been out there.
706
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:45.920
But my example is always Brian Azzarella when he did
707
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.599
his Superman story for Tomorrow or whatever it was called,
708
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:51.880
where he had a real crisis of faith and he
709
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:53.519
went to a priest, and it's like, I'm having an
710
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.119
issue with that. I don't think AI thinks about Superman
711
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.480
that way. Maybe eventually they will, but from a writing
712
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.799
stampook from from an art standpoint and editing thoughts guys
713
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:03.519
on AI.
714
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.000
I hope they'll get to it before I finish. That's
715
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:07.640
all I gotta say.
716
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:11.119
Pencil pencil paper, especially racist pencil paper, and a rason.
717
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:13.400
I'm happy if it gets to the point where I
718
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:14.840
am pushed out because of a eye.
719
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:19.639
Johnny, your son and I were talking about it on
720
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:22.880
the way here. You're part of that generation that as
721
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.039
the older people we lose them and stuff. You know,
722
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:29.440
it's you Art Adams, it's your generation and everything. You
723
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.559
guys are the grand masters.
724
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:32.000
And I had a conversation with a.
725
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:39.480
Spanish artist, a Spanish peell you Spanish spi And when
726
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:43.079
he realized that there was a business of selling his
727
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:47.199
art and it's a supplemental income, this light came on
728
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:47.880
in his eyes.
729
00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.360
I said, do you mean you you're telling me that
730
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:55.920
you only do on your pet You see it was.
731
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.360
Sheepish that on his iPad, on a on a And
732
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:00.440
I don't know if he's changed.
733
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.119
I don't know if he's changed over the pencil paper,
734
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.519
but wow, it's the brilliant, illustrated. It's a kid.
735
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.440
I hate to say it, but he's a kid and
736
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:11.840
he's missing out on a chance to sell his work.
737
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:14.079
Maybe he's not gone out, maybe he didn't understand it.
738
00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:15.840
I don't know, but I think.
739
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.400
It's going to occur to him because there still has
740
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.000
to be a tangible. It's like reading a book as
741
00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:22.360
a post to looking at it on your tablet.
742
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.800
Couldn't agree more reading a newspaper. Yeah, it's old school,
743
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:29.079
but I think as a capitalist pig that I am.
744
00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:33.920
There's a art sales business. It's still bays the electric bill,
745
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.880
excuse the expression. And to have a European artist realize
746
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.480
that I can make money too, it's great. So let's
747
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.880
hold on to it a little while, and if it
748
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:43.880
happens in the next.
749
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.599
Five years, give me five more years, and then I'm
750
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:48.239
all done. I've paid off all my bills.
751
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:50.119
Ralph Any thought Centers.
752
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:53.960
No, not really, except I do remember back when we
753
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.760
were starting to do electronic lettering, Oh yeah, right, that
754
00:35:57.880 --> 00:35:59.840
that almost had the same kind of effect.
755
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:01.840
I remember the letters. I remember John.
756
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:05.239
Workman at one point, who worked fabulously with Walt Simonson.
757
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:06.760
You know that they were like handing love on.
758
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.639
He got so worried that he was going to lose.
759
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.639
All his work that he actually took a staff job
760
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.920
somewhere wh other letters were worried about.
761
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:16.159
That as well.
762
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:18.519
And once that whole thing came in, they were just
763
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:20.559
going to get fonts and then they were they were
764
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:21.440
going to be out of business.
765
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:23.239
So that that kind of was a sort of a
766
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.280
precursor to to the AI for today.
767
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.000
And do you fear it at all, because again, I mean,
768
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:30.360
I have.
769
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.760
Never tried to see what AI would do. But like
770
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:39.119
now I'm kind of curious if you type in give
771
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:40.159
me a great.
772
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:43.760
Daredevil story that no one has ever written yet, can it?
773
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:47.599
Does it have every single Daredevil story ever? And would
774
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.559
it spit out of ideas and pitch.
775
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.440
But part of me, it's like when we were talking
776
00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:58.000
about it's just like and I can't walk around Hell's
777
00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:02.320
kitchen and smell it and you know, understand it and
778
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:04.360
go into the clubs and hang out. I mean I
779
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:08.760
was really I went into stript bars, I went everywhere.
780
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:12.119
Just to always know what hell is that.
781
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:13.840
That's where you went.
782
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:21.239
It's research, It's quite all right, I'm doing a paper.
783
00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:23.159
It's okay, you know, I don't know. And then the
784
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:25.079
other thing that's interesting is that.
785
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:32.960
Comic con all you know, No, you finished your story that.
786
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:38.760
Say something about comic cons, because oddly, comic cons have
787
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:44.400
become like for the old timers, they can't get work anymore.
788
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.559
It's literally become their pension, you know. So you have
789
00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:52.679
someone that isn't getting inking work or isn't getting.
790
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.159
You know, writing work anymore, you can go to a
791
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:57.119
con and you can you know.
792
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.920
Make a few bucks signing comics and it actually is
793
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.960
really helping. The fans are supporting the old timers in
794
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.960
a way the corporations never did.
795
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:10.559
There you go.
796
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:16.000
It's also social media is one thing, but conventions are
797
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:17.119
social media in person.
798
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:20.880
I defy anybody to not enjoy meeting.
799
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:24.320
Even if you get constructive criticism.
800
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:26.639
And I've gotten it you're suck, but would just signed
801
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:27.000
my book.
802
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:37.239
I've never said you suck, you said you'll never be
803
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:37.679
that good.
804
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:42.960
But the reaction social media is one thing, but to
805
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.760
get the reaction from everybody in person, you can't beat it,
806
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:49.280
and it affects your heart. When I got told that
807
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:52.360
Spider Man's angles are too skinny, I got mad, went home.
808
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.360
And looked, holy shit, the angles are too skinny.
809
00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:56.840
I never saw the guy again.
810
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.599
But first reaction media is one thing, but to have
811
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:02.920
a face attached.
812
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:06.280
To an opinion of constructive criticism, it's invaluable.
813
00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.960
And also, you know, fans no good work, like when
814
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:15.320
you've written comics for forty years, there are stinkers you know,
815
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:18.559
and you're like, and no one starts out to write
816
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:21.679
a bad comic. But for some reason, the emotional art,
817
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:26.440
the shenanigans, it doesn't grab the reader and it didn't, wasn't.
818
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.599
It's maybe still a good read, but it's not a
819
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:30.239
great read.
820
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:34.840
And fans come up to your table and they are
821
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:36.880
bringing your best hits.
822
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.280
They know, like I got the comics. I love that,
823
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:41.199
I know worked.
824
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:44.199
They're coming up there, And a lot of it is
825
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:48.519
the typhoid issues that come up to me. Yeah, and
826
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.719
then once in a while, something like nobody's ever broughten
827
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.119
this up and it really must have been a stinker.
828
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.039
Then some kid will bring it up and be like
829
00:39:56.119 --> 00:39:59.119
this is my favorite and you almost go like what
830
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:03.079
you know? That comic stun But then you realized there
831
00:40:03.159 --> 00:40:06.719
was something in it that hit that kid and merged
832
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.800
with their brain in a good way. But I really
833
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:09.960
want to hear the story that.
834
00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:12.079
Yeah, come on, he doesn't want to tell come on.
835
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:20.920
You talked about Kiss before, yes, And I met the
836
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.639
Kiss guys and Jeane Simmons was great guy.
837
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.800
Just he's a brilliant man. He doesn't drink, doesn't smoke,
838
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.079
did drugs, just a real mensch of guy.
839
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.440
And I went to San Diego for the I think
840
00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:34.079
it was the twentieth aniversary of the Kiss Book.
841
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:34.719
I think that's what it was.
842
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:36.960
Yeah, Yeah, and he came up to me and he said,
843
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.880
let's go out, you know, let's got let's have lunch,
844
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.760
and he guess Cassada to come along. In three years
845
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.480
ended up going to lunch, and then we ended up
846
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:45.519
going out and he wanted to go to the wood
847
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:51.079
Club club club string Fellows, I think is what it
848
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:52.000
was in San Diego.
849
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:53.559
It was a strip club and it wasn't.
850
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:57.119
It wasn't a cheesy, empty, completely naked strip club. It
851
00:40:57.239 --> 00:40:59.880
was it was a classy joint by the speaker, and
852
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.119
they knew who he was. And I should have realized
853
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:02.840
at that pointment.
854
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.400
They knew, hey, Geno, oh shit.
855
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:11.840
So they sit us down in the front row, of course,
856
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:15.639
Gene Simmons, and then the words came to my ears,
857
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:20.440
I have no cash on me. I guess billionaires don't
858
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.920
carry around cash. I thought it was Cassana for a second,
859
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:25.920
but it was Gean Simmons in my ear, so he says,
860
00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.440
and Cassana had no money, that bastard.
861
00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:31.880
I was head on that too with it to oh
862
00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:33.519
I'm sorry, Oh yeah, I was there with you.
863
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:34.719
You were on that okay.
864
00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:38.440
I didn't know if it was true, And so Geene says,
865
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:39.920
you know, you know a couple of bucks, So I
866
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:41.880
plot the sixty dollars that I had.
867
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:44.159
I had no idea that that's twenty.
868
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:46.920
It was a single dollar billity, you gave it to
869
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:48.920
a lady that was dancing, not twenties.
870
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.480
But Geene Simmons needs twenties.
871
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:51.679
Oh like.
872
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.239
Just twenty and one set of shoes. The girls would
873
00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.400
put their shoes in front of their chosen Oh that
874
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:01.119
is classy.
875
00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:05.239
So not only did he put twenty in.
876
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.360
Front of his shoes, he put the twenty in front
877
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.719
of my shoes, and he puts the twenty in front
878
00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:13.039
of Casata's shoes because the girls see this, and then
879
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:14.719
Jean's gone with the three girls.
880
00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:20.320
Wow, do you remember the crazy?
881
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:22.559
Vaguely?
882
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.920
What another club Jim Shooter made.
883
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:30.599
Rest in Peace gave me my starting comments. I got
884
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.679
along with him very well, although we did fight a lot.
885
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:38.639
But Jim Shooter had this idea to send the X
886
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:43.519
Men team to France. And so it was me, Johnny
887
00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:49.639
Dan Green, Sandy Green my partner at the time, armand.
888
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:54.559
Chris Chris Clarmont, and so we go to France, okay, and.
889
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.639
France is Paris, and we're doing these signings and they're.
890
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:01.679
Like you're like, oh, we're gonna send you out on
891
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:03.840
the town tonight, and they send us.
892
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:07.920
To the strangest strip club. It was called the I
893
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.079
think it was called the Crazy Felt. And what I
894
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:13.360
remember is we were all I.
895
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.960
Did not ask to go to the strip club. I
896
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.119
did not ask, none of us.
897
00:43:18.119 --> 00:43:21.000
We were all kind of so embarrassed and we were
898
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:25.039
just like, you know, uh like.
899
00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:29.039
And I remember there was a phone booth and there
900
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:31.719
was a naked girl goes in the phone booth or something,
901
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.559
and then she changes into a nun and then the
902
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:37.880
phone booth goes like this, and then it turns into
903
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.079
a coffin and she gets into it, and I'm like,
904
00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:46.039
what's going on? And then there was the next one
905
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.800
was a clone routine and a girl comes.
906
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:51.000
Out naked, and then another one.
907
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:52.119
It looks at until the.
908
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.559
Stage is filled with all these women that look exactly alike.
909
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.199
So it was kind of an arty strip club.
910
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:03.400
But at some point, like Dan Green looks at.
911
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:05.239
Me and it's like, I'm married.
912
00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.519
I got to get out of here, and Chris is like,
913
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:09.840
I gotta get out of here. Although I think that
914
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.079
was before you met Beth, his wife. And then I
915
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:18.639
was like I got a boyfriend flying over to see me, like,
916
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:20.760
I think we all left?
917
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.480
Did we leave anyone there?
918
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:26.480
Mate? You no, I didn't get you see this?
919
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:30.880
You see that? With that, I left.
920
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:32.079
That was weird.
921
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:37.400
That was like the French idea of entertaining Americans, you.
922
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:41.320
Know, I mean it was memorable. I remember.
923
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.800
More questions. I have more questions, come on up, coming
924
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.239
up while you're waiting, And did you have a break
925
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.760
from comics? Because truly it felt like I hadn't read
926
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:52.519
anything of yours.
927
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:57.360
And then suddenly what happened was that lifelong dream of
928
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:01.039
being a journalist kicked in beautiful and it coincided.
929
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:04.320
I don't know if you all know, Marvel went bankrupt indeed.
930
00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:10.280
And suddenly like the staff was cut, the books were cut.
931
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:14.440
You made it through somehow, right, you.
932
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:17.559
Never had to leave staff, but suddenly there wasn't a
933
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:20.119
lot of work. So I was sort of forced to.
934
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:23.920
I became a journalist. I got a film magazine. I
935
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:27.639
started doing more journalism. I started writing films. Then I
936
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.239
started making films, and then I went to Haiti and.
937
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:31.280
Was teaching films.
938
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:36.480
So then when all of that was finished, I got
939
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:38.480
a call from Bob Harris.
940
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.400
A awesome and he said, we're doing this thing the.
941
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:45.400
New fifty two, and I think he told me what
942
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:47.880
it was, and I still didn't understand what it was,
943
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:51.599
but I tried, and that the Bob brought me back
944
00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:52.239
into comics.
945
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.239
Well, honestly, I enjoyed your Green Arrow Run very thank you,
946
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.639
very very much. And as much as was the name
947
00:45:57.679 --> 00:45:58.320
of your film.
948
00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:01.199
Magazine it was called Scenario, And I was in La
949
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:04.679
all the time interviewing great directors. It's all on my
950
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:06.400
website if anyone's interested.
951
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.239
And anyway, that's all boring, and that's not boring.
952
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.000
I want to know what.
953
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:16.920
Okay, I felt like because of my outfit, I had
954
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.440
to talk to you about the human torch issue in
955
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.239
the run, and I guess I was just wondering, because
956
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:24.760
you know, you spend so much time doing this like
957
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.239
very you know, the street level guy and then eventually
958
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.559
going against you know, these big crazier things and like
959
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:33.280
Mephisto and stuff like that, Like what really encouraged you
960
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:36.199
to bring a hero that might be more associated with
961
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.519
those higher level threats to the book and to like,
962
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.159
you know, I think there's so many human torch stories
963
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:44.480
of like, well, this is where he learns to be responsible,
964
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.079
but like yours really went.
965
00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:48.199
In on like, oh, he can't be like a hero
966
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:50.079
in this regard and the way that they're level this,
967
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:52.159
and just like what motivated that?
968
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:54.159
And then also I guess, just like in terms of
969
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:58.039
like art questions and also like writing, like what inspired that,
970
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.079
like opening first page with like the new talking about
971
00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:02.960
how much it hurts and every time he lands on,
972
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:06.199
and then also what the inspiration was for the shirt
973
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.800
he wears that says bad, real dad, I'm pointing at
974
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:10.360
the guy.
975
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:10.679
That did that.
976
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:14.599
Johnny came up with that, for sure. I remember that,
977
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:16.599
you know, I had this weird thing.
978
00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:18.920
Where I would want to really like the way I said,
979
00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:21.039
I used to look up at rooftops to see like
980
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:22.039
how would he leap here?
981
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:23.760
He only you know, he only had the Billy Club.
982
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.719
He wasn't Spider Man. But then, you know, I think
983
00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:29.360
that when the torch, I was just like, what would
984
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:29.920
it feel like?
985
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:33.480
I said, it must be, you know, painful for a
986
00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:35.559
few minutes and weird and feverish.
987
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:37.280
So that just came from that.
988
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:40.519
But then I think Johnny and I we did what happened.
989
00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:42.239
We wanted to do an issue.
990
00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:46.159
In a bar or something some semblance of commonality when
991
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:48.840
it comes to me in Bars, I don't know me.
992
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:52.440
And Bars too, like we both were like party people.
993
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:56.719
Yeah, and I think that's it always stuck with me
994
00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:59.400
ever since I heard Stan explain to my father that
995
00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:01.800
he had to have a proper balance of reality and fantasy.
996
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:04.800
When you balance it just right, you have a fantastic story.
997
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.119
And that's the great thing about Daredevil is and then
998
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:12.079
characters even like Spider Man, that you add the fantasy
999
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.960
to it. But with Johnny Storm and I don't think
1000
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.039
it was my idea, it was your idea that the
1001
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:20.079
pain shows up. This is a great little bit of
1002
00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:23.320
reality to a fantasy that's fantastic, and that's when you
1003
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:24.440
have that right balance.
1004
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:26.519
That's when you have a spectacular story.
1005
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:29.559
But the cool T shirt was yours? Yes, where did
1006
00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:30.119
that come from?
1007
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:30.800
I don't remember.
1008
00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:38.000
That's great comics because it's like there's it.
1009
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:40.639
Says something and then only when he turns his back
1010
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:42.320
do you get the punchline.
1011
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:44.039
That's the beautiful thing you can.
1012
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:44.639
Do in comics.
1013
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:47.760
Absolutely, Yeah, that's so hilarious. And then just that the
1014
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:49.320
bit too, where like he goes in the bar and
1015
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:51.320
they're like, we're not going to tell you anything. He's like, okay,
1016
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.679
I'll rough everybody up then, and then he wins the
1017
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:55.400
fight and they're like, we're still not going to tell
1018
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:55.800
you anything.
1019
00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:58.119
So then he ends up burning the bar down by accident.
1020
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:00.599
It's like, but this isn't what the character should remember.
1021
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.119
He was that type of character steam, but it never flushed,
1022
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.800
was never fleshed out to this extent that's brilliant.
1023
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:10.599
Sometimes there's also like an instinct, and you know it
1024
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:12.840
might have been Ralph, because when you do a bunch
1025
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:16.840
of heavy issues, sometimes as an editor you say do
1026
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:19.239
a light issue, or do a fun issue, or do
1027
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:21.239
so it could have been Ralph's idea.
1028
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:21.840
You know.
1029
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.519
I think we may have talked about that, because one
1030
00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:27.199
of the things that I remember talking about what they
1031
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.960
did in the FF was I Love the issue I
1032
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.880
think was right after the Galactus trilogy where Johnny Storm
1033
00:49:33.039 --> 00:49:36.599
goes to college and he's sitting as a diner and
1034
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.559
there's this guy behind him who's like the BMOC on campus,
1035
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.440
Big Guy Mullins I think was his name, and he goes, oh,
1036
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:44.239
so the human tortures here whatever it is.
1037
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.519
He goes show us how you flame on, so you know,
1038
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:47.320
very cool thing.
1039
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:50.039
Kirby hasn't just going like this, he flicks things.
1040
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:50.639
It's how about that?
1041
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:52.719
So the guy pours water on his head.
1042
00:49:53.239 --> 00:49:55.480
Johnny gets up and he's ready to go with this
1043
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:59.159
guy who's three times his size. But that's when white
1044
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:01.719
Wingfoot came in who's even bigger than him, and the
1045
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.400
fight stopped.
1046
00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:05.039
But you see, Johnny, without using his flame was.
1047
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:06.920
Going to go after this guy, and I like that.
1048
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.559
I thought, Hey, this guy is tough, but he's not
1049
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.360
going to use the superpowers. So I thought that was
1050
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.480
a great thing that a king. I think we talked
1051
00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:13.760
about it.
1052
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:15.719
I said, look, I haven't fight a huge guy in
1053
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.639
the bar, but don't use his powers. Haven't faced the
1054
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:20.559
guy down, and then see what happened, Sanning.
1055
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:21.719
That's great stuff.
1056
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.519
Yeah, well, Van, thank you, great question.
1057
00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:26.960
Hi.
1058
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:29.559
So, I guess I kind of wanted to ask, like,
1059
00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:32.119
since you guys are veterans of the industry, kind of
1060
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:34.639
thing you talked about. Dennie O'Neil had the approach of
1061
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.360
doing like a more journalistic kind of approach and going
1062
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:40.119
out and living within the city and kind of like
1063
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.639
forming like a reality towards the fantasy, and I kind
1064
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:46.280
of felt like my favorite characters that you made in
1065
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.960
all of the Daredevil runs isn't actually Typewoo Mary, it's
1066
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.920
the little hooligans that are like friends with Daredella throughout
1067
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.559
the entire run, because I kind of felt like I've
1068
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:56.480
always liked the idea that would make Daredubil kind of
1069
00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:59.679
separate or different than other characters. It's like he knows
1070
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:01.639
that people of Hell's Kitchen on kind of like a
1071
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:03.440
personal level in like his.
1072
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:04.920
Like superhero identity.
1073
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.880
And I guess kind of like maybe multiple like kind
1074
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.880
of double faced question, which is one, what kind of
1075
00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:14.360
inspired those kind of characters and kind of to bring
1076
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:15.559
that kind of idea to it?
1077
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.920
And two do you think that like that.
1078
00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:21.199
Sort of like journalistic approach to writing comics is kind
1079
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:23.239
of like filtered out a little bit in like the
1080
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:26.800
last few decades, because growing up your Hell's Kitchen felt
1081
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:29.840
very very very real to me and felt very very
1082
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:32.000
very like a real place to me that I'm not
1083
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.760
saying modern writers don't have, but I haven't really seen
1084
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:36.840
as like a stylistic in the last few days.
1085
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:40.239
And I do think that's the beauty of street characters
1086
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:45.440
like you know, Luke Cage, Uh, who else has been.
1087
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:48.760
In that in Marvel is the Street characters.
1088
00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:52.199
Punisher, Hawkeye, maybe Hawkeye Dared.
1089
00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:56.079
Atle there, You don't like you do a Captain Marvel's story.
1090
00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:58.039
You've got to make you gotta go cosmic.
1091
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:01.000
Sure, you do an x Mense story, there's got to
1092
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:05.960
be like huge spectacular things going on, and you get
1093
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.840
the drama and the X Mansion, of course. But Darnell
1094
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:12.960
is so and because you know, it was everything in
1095
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:16.360
that book was either Ralph's idea, Johnny's idea, or my idea.
1096
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.159
And it was like, you know, who knows which one
1097
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:23.199
of us saw skateboarder and said, how about a skateboarder?
1098
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:26.079
I have no memory of where that stuff come from,
1099
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:28.119
but it came from one of the three of us.
1100
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.960
Always like I saw this, I saw that, you know,
1101
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:33.719
so I think because we.
1102
00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:36.920
All lived there and we all were together all the time.
1103
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:40.199
Now you're doing a book maybe with someone who's in
1104
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:43.079
a different time zone and doesn't speak and I don't
1105
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:46.000
speak Spanish and they don't speak Italian, and it's all
1106
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:51.320
and sometimes the editorial staff doesn't even like let you talk,
1107
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.079
and it's just so alienating.
1108
00:52:54.519 --> 00:52:58.880
But those pre internet days were really about.
1109
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:02.440
People teaming up. I'm working together, you know, I don't.
1110
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:04.599
I don't think I did a single comic back then
1111
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:08.360
where I wasn't hanging and talking with the artists and
1112
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:09.000
the editor.
1113
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:10.960
Thank you very much. That's you great.
1114
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:13.760
That's why here is for hire. Every time they do
1115
00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:16.599
it and then abandon it, I'm like, all these great
1116
00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:19.079
street level characters and stuff, it's like, that's and it
1117
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:20.840
is Marvel. It's the New York scene.
1118
00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:23.559
Remember, all you have to do is maintain the street
1119
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:26.000
level character. But you can throw any kind of insanity
1120
00:53:26.119 --> 00:53:28.679
into it, of course, and always remain That's why Spider
1121
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:32.199
Man and that's why Daredevil and punish her and they
1122
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.280
are at street level and it's always based in that reality.
1123
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:36.440
Then you throw into fantasy.
1124
00:53:36.519 --> 00:53:38.880
How crazy has Spider Man gotten with some of shirk
1125
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:40.920
out of And that's why we bring him a fisto
1126
00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:42.440
to Daredevil, Oh my god.
1127
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:42.480
And.
1128
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.960
Is like he wears a devil suit and he's a
1129
00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:49.400
lapsed Catholic, Like he is the perfect guy to take
1130
00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:49.840
your help.
1131
00:53:50.519 --> 00:53:50.880
I can't.
1132
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:53.079
I don't think that story would have worked if it
1133
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:55.039
was Spider Man goes to Hell.
1134
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:58.320
Dared Devil is perfect and I don't work but a
1135
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.000
nightcrawler religious character.
1136
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:05.880
And we're bringing black Heart, I mean, the child of
1137
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:09.960
the We couldn't get, we couldn't release the Devil, couldn't.
1138
00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:11.280
Whose whose idea was it for black Heart?
1139
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:15.280
Probably both of our ideas went to jet concerts.
1140
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:21.159
Yeah yeah.
1141
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:23.800
And we also don't remember who came up with names.
1142
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:27.400
I mean, you know, Johnny Ralphie, we don't know. Didn't
1143
00:54:27.400 --> 00:54:30.079
you tie in the X Men thing?
1144
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:30.360
Was it?
1145
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:34.400
It was the all of the mutants, all of the
1146
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:38.679
mutants and the whole city was going on cover when
1147
00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:42.039
Jared Devil's just like on the pile of bodies. And
1148
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:44.880
then also of course you got to bring a kimpin.
1149
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:51.000
So when when people find out that what's behind Mary
1150
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:55.320
who is working in a blind school to seduce Matt
1151
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.800
and Typhoid who is basically the bad girl like Electra
1152
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:06.480
ripping Matt apart, and we conveniently gave her the power
1153
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:10.320
to her heart beat didn't change and her smell didn't.
1154
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:13.679
Oh no, her heart beat did change and her smell change.
1155
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.480
So Dared all with his senses, did not know Mary
1156
00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:17.280
was Typhoid.
1157
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:19.280
And but so we really worked the.
1158
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:21.320
Whole thing out, and then when you.
1159
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.159
Find out that the Kingpin is behind it all, and
1160
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:28.599
then they all come back, all of the Bushwhacker.
1161
00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:31.280
Every ammomember sut.
1162
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:34.079
Yeah, well hilarious.
1163
00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:36.679
We only have three minutes left, so we really have
1164
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:37.280
to be fast.
1165
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:40.880
Keep going to ask crazy Horse did inspire.
1166
00:55:40.519 --> 00:55:41.760
Any characters or anything?
1167
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:47.280
You know, you know what the real shame of.
1168
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:49.960
This whole discussion that this is very serious. To me,
1169
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:52.719
I hate to take all the fun out of the room.
1170
00:55:52.800 --> 00:55:58.360
But Gene Simmons that he paid me that money. You
1171
00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:02.679
went on, Oh, I'm called the Howard Stoschel. It was
1172
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.280
your guest on the Howard you called it. Yeah, I said,
1173
00:56:05.280 --> 00:56:06.960
I want to speak to Gene. You know, I'm je
1174
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:11.320
and Gary straight Dela something like that.
1175
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:13.679
That's cool, that's cool. What do you want to talk about?
1176
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:18.079
Said Genus be sixty buck day hung up on you.
1177
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:21.400
Come on, that's a radio guy.
1178
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:22.239
That's a business.
1179
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:25.199
This is a lot of money, right, missed opportunity? That
1180
00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:27.559
was wrong, Gary, I said, that is thirty year radio
1181
00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:28.360
bent Chicago.
1182
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.519
That was wrong. Good he thought I was full of ship.
1183
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:34.000
Yeah, well I got a question for John. So you
1184
00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:36.840
said that before you got on the book, you were
1185
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:39.079
ready to leave Marvel. You're having me your frustrated and
1186
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:40.960
finding your place. I know you dealt with a lot
1187
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:44.480
of backlash for your lineage and trying to find your place.
1188
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:45.920
Do you do you suh?
1189
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:48.199
For you did was being at the end of your
1190
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:50.000
rope and ready to walk away and will allow you
1191
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:53.679
to kind of be so creative and and find your
1192
00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:56.480
new voice and let go because you you weren't quite
1193
00:56:56.559 --> 00:56:58.320
as concerned as trying to make it work.
1194
00:56:58.400 --> 00:56:59.280
You were ready to walk away.
1195
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:01.480
Think those released your admissions.
1196
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.360
The turning point was to work on dared level. Not
1197
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:07.199
before that. I was ready to go because I was,
1198
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:09.360
I was ready to change.
1199
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:12.039
I I didn't feel accomplished in any way, shape or form,
1200
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:14.679
and I got told that by more than.
1201
00:57:14.599 --> 00:57:15.079
A few people.
1202
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:19.400
But to work on DARED level completely changed everything, plotting
1203
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:23.719
full pencils input and I it. It just completely changed
1204
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.039
everything over And it was the biggest decision I ever
1205
00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:27.880
made and the best decision made.
1206
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.000
And I think the only reason you left was because
1207
00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:32.480
didn't I put you on the X Men.
1208
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:34.119
They took me off the x Men to work on
1209
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:36.199
something else and then promised the X Men to me,
1210
00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:37.920
and then they didn't give it back.
1211
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.119
To me, we didn't give it back to you, no, sorry,
1212
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:41.199
And I found it out.
1213
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:44.280
To you. I don't know, but that was the reason
1214
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:45.519
why I walked out of the office and.
1215
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:48.000
Cursed it everything, and I found out who had say
1216
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:50.000
in that and then bugged the crap at me. But
1217
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:52.199
it was thirty five years ago, forty years ago, and
1218
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:53.760
I can't hold it against those people.
1219
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:57.840
But instead of you, how come I camera?
1220
00:57:58.559 --> 00:57:59.000
It doesn't matter.
1221
00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:01.320
I got a girl.
1222
00:58:01.400 --> 00:58:02.760
Are you still no?
1223
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:03.480
You?
1224
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:06.000
Wow?
1225
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:08.280
I know who did it, and I can't even get
1226
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:11.239
mad because it's such an old story, soul. I just
1227
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:13.800
found out about a year ago who was responsible for it,
1228
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:16.360
and it got me mad for about forty five minutes.
1229
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:20.159
And these two people calmed me down, my wife and
1230
00:58:20.239 --> 00:58:23.400
my son, and said how long ago was this exactly?
1231
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:24.480
It's it's useless.
1232
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:27.920
But then getting back into Dareduvil, getting into that uble
1233
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:30.719
was a game change, a complete life change for me.
1234
00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:34.280
If I could, if I could have accomplished just one thing.
1235
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:36.280
As the editor of Daredevil, it was to keep this
1236
00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:37.679
genius in the business.
1237
00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:38.920
That was it.
1238
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:40.360
There's nothing else.
1239
00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:49.840
At to wrap up? Guys, you know and and are
1240
00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:51.400
you are you? Are you writing anything currently?
1241
00:58:51.480 --> 00:58:51.719
What are you?
1242
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:52.360
What are you working on?
1243
00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:56.599
The last I had a book that I'm writing some EC.
1244
00:58:56.840 --> 00:59:00.320
You know they brought EC, yeah, which is great fun
1245
00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:02.239
horse play the games.
1246
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:05.719
And so I'm doing some stories for EC which are
1247
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:06.559
really a hoot.
1248
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:11.800
And you know that if you're not old enough to remember,
1249
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.840
they were sort of like old o Henry stories where
1250
00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:17.320
there's a twist and you have to have the twist and.
1251
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:19.719
It has to go really wrong and get gory.
1252
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:25.239
You know, we're doing We're doing very almost like what's
1253
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:26.280
that black mirror?
1254
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:30.280
The first one I did was you know, fears I
1255
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.920
have attack, and the next one is basically about a
1256
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:34.079
snake oil salesman.
1257
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:36.440
You don't have to think too are to know? I mean?
1258
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:40.239
And then so and I'm working with the wonderful David.
1259
00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:46.480
Of course straight and then I did a really fun
1260
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.199
Galactis story with Rogue. And now I'm still doing comics.
1261
00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:54.639
And I did Karen Berger a Burger Books, who I
1262
00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:58.880
had worked for at Vertigo all those years ago. She
1263
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.400
she he started Burger Books. So I did two graphic
1264
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:05.440
novels for her, now working on a third. And there's
1265
01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:09.079
something I remember. People sometimes will say, you know, how
1266
01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:10.880
come you know you were never.
1267
01:00:11.960 --> 01:00:12.440
You were never?
1268
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:13.159
Oh, I know.
1269
01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:14.239
A fan came up to me.
1270
01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:17.559
Somebody said, how come you were never? Like nominated for
1271
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:18.480
an Eisner.
1272
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:21.840
And the other the other guy went, well, Johnny and
1273
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:26.239
Annie were nominated for an Eisner the second.
1274
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:27.079
Year of the Eisners.
1275
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:27.760
Did you know that?
1276
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:28.199
Wow?
1277
01:00:28.519 --> 01:00:30.480
And I said, no, we weren't.
1278
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.280
And he sure enough, he pulls up the eyes in
1279
01:00:33.360 --> 01:00:37.880
our website and it's year two of the Eisners.
1280
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:39.039
I didn't know it either.
1281
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:43.920
Year two and it's John Amida Junior and Andasenti and
1282
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:47.840
I guess Ralph for dared Owl nominated for an Eisner.
1283
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:52.960
We didn't win because we were up against Neil.
1284
01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.960
Game and Alan Moore swamp thing and the third was
1285
01:00:56.079 --> 01:00:59.840
like an equally stellar But you know, so now I
1286
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:01.920
can actually say we were ese.
1287
01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:02.639
And are nominated.
1288
01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:05.760
That's cool. I didn't even know.
1289
01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:09.199
But because it was only the second year of the Isers.
1290
01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:11.360
All right, we gotta wrap up.
1291
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:16.760
Unfortunately, excellent conversation, wonderful found. Please go to their table
1292
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:19.719
and say explore more. Well, God,