WEBVTT
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to this Wise Scientist podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer, and I'm here with Professor Ravi Revindra and Dr. William Keepin to talk about the very important topic of wise scientists, which we've been pursuing this year in the Galileo Commission, following an initial paper by Ravi reflecting on the need for wise scientists in science in particular, but of course wisdom in society
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm going to hand over to Ravi and Will and we'll get going on the conversation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you very much, David.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, David.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we actually, both of us would agree that clearly one needs a very intelligent and creative mind to be a good scientist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There is no doubt about that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But from the perspective of the spiritual teachers, there is always a suggestion that what is really more important is to have a certain kind of wisdom, which is not the same thing as knowledge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It includes love, compassion, a feeling of service.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if we look at any of the great stages, these are the things we would associate with them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we proceed to assist that that our creative scientists can also acquire not only acquire, but really even to say that it is necessary to have some wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_02]: otherwise science is used as you know, you can look at that 20th century.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's just used for bigger and bigger weapons, all the nice work in quantum mechanics, relativity theory, what did it lead to?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Atumboa.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we proceed?
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's my question, really.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you for bringing such an important question forward.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in Los Alamos as you know, so I've sat with that question since I awakened to the reality of my hometown industry and I actually made a firm commitment to never be part of any weapons work at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I don't know why I just, I just was repulsed by it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I connected with those who were posing the arms race as a young man, but I wasn't setting out to be an activist of any kind at that time, but I remember I read the book The Art of Loving by Eric From, if you know that book, when I graduated from high school, this is a bit of an aside, but I decided, oh, great!
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm all about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to major in psychology.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That lasted for about two months when I went to university of my first course in psychology.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were teaching behaviorism as if it was invaluable loss of physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was so offended.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, I know, I'm only 18.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know I don't know anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But this is such an insult to the beauty of the human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember I switched my major to physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, it may be more boring, but at least it's true.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I call that rationality rather than psychology.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't take another single course in psychology for another 25 years when I went back to graduate school to re-training Eastern philosophy and the best of Western philosophy and psychology.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, that was of course a youthful decision at 18, you know, making a big rejection of the one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But science...
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[SPEAKER_01]: In my view is seriously limited in two fundamental ways.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The first is the restriction of its ontology to a materialist cosmos.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The second is the restriction of its epistemology to the human mind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these two create a very narrow practice of science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is not inherent in the scientific method.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The scientific method can be applied to spiritual inquiry, where you have essentially the spirit of experimentation, and you have the spirit of independent verification.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these kinds of principles can be applied in a broader domain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: then traditional contemporary science has chosen to limit itself to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to begin by first saying Ravi, you and I have known each other.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think 40 years plus.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing and I remember something you said which was really precient to me 35 years ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You said the greatest discovery of modern science is not quantum physics
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's the greatest discovery of 20th century science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what you said.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not any of these discoveries that we celebrate such as quantum physics and relativity theory and DNA.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You said the greatest discovery of 20th century science is the discovery of its own limitations.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is really, really crucial.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And science is still in that process.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that, for example, the recent discoveries in the last, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 years of dark matter, dark energy, where materialist science, two, it's credit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: has recognized that it has a grip on at most 6% of what's going on in the cosmos.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The other 94% is understood now to be what they call dark energy and dark matter, which really means we have a clue what's going on there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, at the keep changing their number from 80% to 96%
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the first major acknowledgments of the humility of scientific knowledge in the face of the fullness of reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's rare, I would say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, one of the major problems in science, as well as in some ways it's strengths.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have to recognize, for example, the whole process of new paradigms in science, you know, in Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper, very important revelation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a reason that certain scientific theories stand for so long.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, taught me the astronomy stood for 1,800 years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was revealed to be basically incorrect by Copernicus and Galileo and all of that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But actually, the reason it stood for so long was because it gave predictions that were correct.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The phases of the moon were correctly predicted, the distances to the moon, these many things it gave correct predictions for.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And yet it was fundamentally mistaken at its foundation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And here is a key lesson.
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[SPEAKER_01]: a wrong theory can give right results, and even right predictions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where science really gets trapped.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you have a theory, you make a certain prediction.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You go test it experimentally.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly, you decide that experiment has validated the premises upon which your theory was based, not true, absolutely not true.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the best example of that is classical physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: where we had all of these hundreds of thousands of experiments validating classical physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's these few little annoying anomalies, you know, the ultraviolet catastrophe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Katastrophe itself was an example of how well science welcomed this new data.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Howling it, the ultraviolet catastrophe and the Michaelson Morley experiment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these small little anomalies that eventually, of course, toppled the entire edifice of classical physics and replaced them with quantum physics and relativity theory.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why should we assume that process is done happening?
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know science will continue to evolve in this way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's now I'm still talking within the framework of ordinary science and ordinary scientific revolutions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there are two types of scientific revolution that we need now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The first is what I would call an ordinary scientific revolution which is that science will open to the data from frontier science and by that I mean.
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[SPEAKER_01]: broadly speaking, the science of consciousness, the realms, the phenomena of near-death experience, of paranormal phenomena, of reincarnation research, and many out-of-body experiences, many of these domains that are now sufficiently rigorously studied scientifically.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that they should be accepted as scientific phenomena.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A telepathy, for example, you probably know recently Rupert Scheldick challenged Pinker, Stephen Pinker at Harvard University, to debate on telepathy because Pinker, who wrote the book reality, and he's, I guess, a determined materialist, rationalist, the wrote a book called Reality, wasn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I forget the name of his book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, he basically said, I don't even need to look at the data on telepathy because I know it can't possibly be correct.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is the foundation or philosophical pre-supposition that's bad to examine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, how does that differ from the people who refuse to look through Galileo's telescope?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't differ at all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Rupert Scheldreck challenged him to an intellectual debate about this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But he refused and said he just didn't have a bandwidth for it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was Brian Josephson who said he didn't have a bandwidth in more ways than one.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, this is all, you know, I don't want to, right, but I want to, for a moment to come back to a point you have already made.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, because this is in a way part of the whole function of the Galileo Commission, to move away from a very basic understanding, not understanding, but assumption in modern science, right in from the 16th century, that the ultimate reality is matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, therefore, as you know, as a young physicist, mass length and time, that's what we need to get, MLT.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then of course, in the 19th century, we added charge to it, because it was unable, we were not able to describe this in terms of MLT.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then in the 20th century, spin was added because of quantum mechanics.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But the underlying assumption remains
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the Galileo Commission really, this is the fundamental, at least in my understanding, the perspective is that it begins from consciousness, rather than from matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But how do we can, this is such a radical shift?
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[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think we are going to proceed on this?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the other side has produced lots of ice weapons.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So there is not only that, it has also produced the fact that UNI can speak on Zoom, for example.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't need to be against this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: but we need to understand the really almost the philosophical limitations of modern science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing I think any truly brilliant scientist realizes that mass length and time are all measured in a relative way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they're not absolute.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a standard meter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a standard clock.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, these things are relative.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What actually is mass?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What actually is time?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Those questions are not asked often enough.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when they are, it
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[SPEAKER_01]: there are much more, you know, mysterious than then kind of our classical physics was revealing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So my shortest answer to your question is that what we need within science is a spiritual awakening that is scientifically informed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What I mean by that is that I would say that you said the kind of the blind spot is that science assumes that material is the fundamental nature of reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The spiritual traditions across the traditions from neoplatonism, Western philosophy to the Eastern traditions, all basically posit based on experiential evidence of the mystics, if I could put it that way, that there are multiple levels of reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Great Chain of Being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There are different ontological levels and very broadly speaking, there's the material realm and then beyond and somehow above, if you will, David Bowen identified this is what he called the Iplicate Order in his scientific model of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But basically beyond that, you have another realm, the archetypal realm, the soul realm, and then beyond that, you have another realm, the spiritual realm, the
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[SPEAKER_01]: the angelic realm or the god realms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, these are thoroughly rejected by science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And let me just say one thing about that rejection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is so often, we see that both atheists and hardcore materialist science, they often reject
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[SPEAKER_01]: religion out of hand because they cite the fact that so many people have been killed in the name of God and therefore religion is clearly inherently evil and therefore should be abandoned altogether.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was point out that the same argument applies to science, namely,
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[SPEAKER_01]: chemistry gave us gunpowder and, you know, as chamber, physics gave us nuclear weapons, biology with a pure more fair and biological weapons.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These things yield untold millions of human beings.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, science is primafasy, evil, fundamentally evil.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, we should abandon it altogether.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the mentalist rejection of religion also applies to science
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[SPEAKER_00]: Antimoxism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good for us to think in between religion and spiritual practice or spiritual search because religion I often have actually said and I really truly believe it More organized the religion, more harm it does to spiritual search.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as Christian Mertis said, truth is a pathless land.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, ultimately, that's really important.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, and yeah, if you look at the religions at their deepest core, they all eventually transcend their own narrow framework, and they meet at the summit of mystical oneness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is a testitude by all the mystics across the religions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's should be taken by scientists as a hint that maybe there is something real about the epistemology of spirit, because why should so many mystics across so many disparate cultures who never even had any connection be discovering the same ultimate truths?
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[SPEAKER_02]: This is why I often actually point out that at the very best any religion or any metaphysical description is that the very best is a single finger pointing to the moon.
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[SPEAKER_02]: moon, truth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But if you get so stuck to the finger, you'll never get to the moon.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is important to have all these religious background.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One can learn a great deal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I come from a Hindu background or a Christian background, great sage is in every religion.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But then to move beyond what they have been saying to actually experience what is being said.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I think another major blind spot in contemporary science and beloved Albert Einstein, who we love dearly, also got caught on this, is a belief in separation, is a refusal to accept the depth of the fundamental interconnection of the cosmos in which we live, and the recent
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[SPEAKER_01]: Elaine aspect and John Clouser and Anton Zilinger for their experiments that are basically proved non-locality and quantum entanglement is real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is of course what Einstein's so vehemently repudiated and ridiculed as Spukov de Peronverkuk, the Spukov action at a distance
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[SPEAKER_01]: ridiculable, you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, and bless his heart, he was coming from a deep conviction based on relativity theory that nothing can travel faster than this be light.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He simply couldn't accept that level of fundamental interconnection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But bomb David Bowman, 1952,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Reformulated quantum physics something that John von Neumann had said cannot be done and he did it based on a hidden variable theory and non-mokality and basically boom essentially showed that non-mokality was essential in quantum physics
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the data we're showing, that's what the experiments we're showing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm also proposed a redesign of the EPR paradox, which was based on particles and put it in terms of photons, which enabled a physical experimental test to be done.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the example speaks about something you have otherwise been also emphasizing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Boom was very much influenced by Krishna Muruti.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One could hardly deny this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One can look at it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have myself actually spoke to Bohem, I have several meetings with him, and you can read his dialogues with Krishna Morathi.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, in a way, he was so struck by Krishna Morathi's teaching, trying to put it in some kind of scientific terminology.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm basically coming to the point that this may be one way of enhancing the wisdom of scientists that if they can meet and work with and stay with some of the obviously remarkable people who bring a different kind of perception.
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[SPEAKER_02]: This may be one way of, but how do we arrange this?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, one thing that we could do is to celebrate David bone more than he has been celebrated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He has been repudiated by the scientific community very unfairly so, as you may know, Robert Oppenheimer at one point said to his fellow physicists, if we cannot prove David bone wrong, then we must all agree to ignore him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's honestly an unscientific view.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But what you said about Bohm is really crucial because Bohm did reformulate quantum physics in 1952, and he basically is due some credit for the Nobel Prize that was given 70 years later for all those experiments that essentially prove that non-locality is real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the show that Einstein was mistaken, and then that bone not only did that, but he then reformulated all of quantum physics in what he called the holo movement, which was a holographic cosmos, in which the nature of the cosmos is a single undivided wholeness in which each part contains the hole in some sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That was only possible in my view, precisely because bomb opened to spiritually pistomologies, because of his dialogues, primarily with Christian immortality, but also with other spiritual masters like the Dalai Lama.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but also interest you to know that in 1979, when I was the director of a new prize or a new award called Award for Integrative Knowledge, we gave the first prize was given to boom.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, in a way we have been trying personally to acknowledge his work, but as you say in the usual scientific world, now it may be more acceptable because of the recent work in quantum mechanics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, but I think it should be recognized that Bon was 70 years ahead of his time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He did correct Einstein on that fundamental point about spooky action of the distance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He did recognize the fundamental interconnected nature of the cosmos, and he also brought in which is really crucial in my view.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the holographic, the fractal nature of reality which helps to explain mystical revelation because as Rumi says, and I'm paraphrasing here, you, each one of us, every human being, you are not just a drop from the infinite ocean.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You are the infinite ocean contained in a single drop.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the epistemology by which the mystics know what they know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They go into the depths of their own inner being, and they discover through their own hearts that they have access to the full infinity of divinity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is attested to a cross, the mystics, the Mahavakyas of the Upanishads, or myster Eckhart who says, you know, when God opens the heart, God pours all of his beauty, all of his infinity, all of his divinity into the pure heart of his beloved disciple.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So this is, but you realize this is the reason why he was also condemned by the Catholic Church.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The reason I keep saying that we need to move away from religion, but stay with the real perceptors, people who actually experience something and speak about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we need to uplift the spiritual mystics of the people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and their epistemology, and this is another major opening that I think is needed in science, which is what I call opening to the epistemology of the heart, to recognize that the human heart is the fundamental organ of spiritual perception, and it has its only epistemology, which works in a different way from the ways of the mental process of human reason.
22:37.197 --> 22:43.402
[SPEAKER_01]: And the heart's epistemology works more by a process of unveiling layers.
22:44.183 --> 22:53.591
[SPEAKER_01]: And as each layer is unveiled, a new reality is revealed, and then that reality is revealed, eventually to be a veil over a deeper level of reality.
22:54.031 --> 23:03.720
[SPEAKER_01]: And this unveiling of the heart is a kind of revelatory epistemology, which also has a very precise order and structure,
23:05.893 --> 23:14.276
[SPEAKER_01]: but forward in a scientific way of understanding it and can be validated independently by different mystics pursuing the same epistemology.
23:14.616 --> 23:21.418
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not unscientific, but it's not allowable or admissible in today's materialist scientific paradigm.
23:21.438 --> 23:32.602
[SPEAKER_02]: But even some of the greatest scientists actually say that they came to their fundamental assumption or understanding more from feeling they may use the word inducia.
23:33.555 --> 23:45.161
[SPEAKER_02]: But actually there is a remark of Pascal, particularly which I frequently end up quoting, he actually says that hard has reason that reason does not know.
23:46.237 --> 23:49.179
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is important for reason to know its limitations.
23:49.639 --> 23:52.260
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Pascal, hardly a negligible scientist.
23:52.801 --> 24:03.547
[SPEAKER_02]: Similarly Einstein makes something very similar to this remark, not quite the same words, where he says one is always struck by the mysterious behind everything else.
24:04.147 --> 24:05.188
[SPEAKER_02]: Similarly Newton.
24:05.448 --> 24:09.930
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, some of the greatest scientists actually come back to this, but it is true.
24:09.990 --> 24:14.413
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't get conveyed at the level of training for being a scientist.
24:16.471 --> 24:16.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:16.911 --> 24:21.793
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think something around, I mean, I have a PhD in mathematical physics.
24:21.833 --> 24:23.854
[SPEAKER_01]: You do too among your many degrees.
24:24.675 --> 24:31.577
[SPEAKER_01]: I never once in that whole training got anything even close to a course in scientific ethics.
24:32.238 --> 24:33.678
[SPEAKER_01]: Very concept doesn't exist.
24:34.199 --> 24:35.699
[SPEAKER_01]: Not philosophical ethics.
24:35.779 --> 24:36.840
[SPEAKER_01]: No ethics at all.
24:37.480 --> 24:44.268
[SPEAKER_01]: When I got PhD, the military recruiters were there at my graduate school offering me jobs.
24:44.769 --> 24:51.236
[SPEAKER_01]: In Lockheed Martin, and I forget the names of the defense contractors Boeing and others.
24:51.617 --> 24:56.643
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I took an interview with Boeing, and they flew me to Seattle, and I knew I would never work for them.
24:57.343 --> 25:01.006
[SPEAKER_01]: but I got to be right to Seattle and I thought I need a little professional experience.
25:01.427 --> 25:12.556
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were basically, at the very end, they said, well, this project that we want you to come on board with is called LCM and they kept LCM, this LCM, and I finally asked, you know, what exactly is it?
25:12.616 --> 25:14.438
[SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, it's a launch cruise missile.
25:15.979 --> 25:24.306
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I had joined that job that was on offer right out of graduate school, I would have been part of the team that developed the cruise missile.
25:25.197 --> 25:35.483
[SPEAKER_02]: This is true, you can even statistically look at most people who do PhD in physics, majority of them work either for the industry or for military.
25:36.239 --> 25:37.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, I know.
25:37.820 --> 25:41.083
[SPEAKER_02]: A few, of course, in the academic work, teaching big-on professors.
25:41.844 --> 25:46.487
[SPEAKER_02]: But the others are all working for the military, or for the industry, making money or power.
25:47.148 --> 25:49.230
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really rather tragic to see all of this.
25:49.830 --> 25:59.959
[SPEAKER_01]: Foundly tragic, and so it's part of the solution is to begin to name the reality that science has been co-opted by another agenda.
26:00.219 --> 26:03.762
[SPEAKER_01]: Science is supposed to be the way I understand it
26:06.007 --> 26:11.749
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's a quest for truth, then we have to face the truth of how it's been co-opted.
26:12.549 --> 26:17.931
[SPEAKER_01]: And we also have to open to the truths of the heart as part of the domain of truth.
26:18.331 --> 26:21.993
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we do that, we open to the deep truths of love and wisdom.
26:22.773 --> 26:25.834
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you said, some of the best scientists were aware of these things.
26:26.174 --> 26:30.856
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet their inventions were often turned to destructive purposes.
26:35.389 --> 26:38.853
[SPEAKER_02]: the difficulties, you see the same thing with Einstein in a way.
26:39.835 --> 26:46.102
[SPEAKER_02]: On the one hand, Einstein or Newton will very much acknowledge the existence of something very divine.
26:46.182 --> 26:50.187
[SPEAKER_02]: They may even say ultimately, they may use the word God or may not use the word God.
26:51.229 --> 26:51.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But
26:51.865 --> 26:55.469
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't become part of their scientific research.
26:55.970 --> 26:58.933
[SPEAKER_02]: What gets published has nothing to do with God.
26:58.953 --> 27:06.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in a way, Newton's writing, Newton wrote more words in theology and alchemy than actually in physics or mathematics.
27:07.423 --> 27:09.326
[SPEAKER_02]: But most of those were hidden until 1941.
27:11.822 --> 27:14.943
[SPEAKER_02]: Newton died in 1720 I think.
27:15.623 --> 27:17.484
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was all hidden until 1941.
27:18.724 --> 27:37.129
[SPEAKER_02]: So what happened that even those people who actually feel that very strongly kind of a spiritual feeling, they may not even necessarily use the word spiritual, but they have this feeling from their heart that there is something very mysterious, something very grand, but it doesn't get part of actually doing physics.
27:39.877 --> 27:50.080
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I think is the true profound crisis of science today is this lack of opening to these other dimensions.
27:50.341 --> 27:54.622
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear a lot in recent years about the metacrisis in science, which is a good thing.
27:55.442 --> 28:04.225
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all about recognizing the low quality of much of the statistical analysis and many scientific experiments actually do not stand up to replication.
28:04.525 --> 28:05.746
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's being exposed.
28:06.706 --> 28:08.907
[SPEAKER_01]: but that isn't the real crisis of science.
28:08.987 --> 28:20.294
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, the real crisis of science is its narrow epistemology and narrow materialist cosmology and its utter lack of ethical laws and foundations within its own domain.
28:21.852 --> 28:42.608
[SPEAKER_01]: And if that could be introduced in scientific training, I think it would be an enormous transformation that science as a quest for truth is really one of the highest columns there is for the human, the same way that spiritual calling is one of the highest columns there is.
28:43.369 --> 28:45.571
[SPEAKER_01]: And in spiritual life,
28:46.788 --> 29:00.277
[SPEAKER_01]: the divine, whatever we call that transcendent reality, it responds to, it be stoves divine love and divine grace in the hearts of every human being, if they are to it.
29:00.697 --> 29:04.340
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to the extent that they are receptive to it, it magnifies that.
29:05.140 --> 29:19.245
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we see that in constantly in spiritual masters who do incredible work in the world, far beyond what one human being could accomplish, simply because they're working with a much bigger deck of ontological reality than just the mind.
29:20.505 --> 29:25.387
[SPEAKER_01]: And even scientists are doing the same thing, but they don't really
29:26.624 --> 29:32.407
[SPEAKER_01]: They might acknowledge it in a certain personal memoir, but they never bring it into the formal science they're doing.
29:32.507 --> 29:32.967
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
29:33.447 --> 29:47.634
[SPEAKER_02]: But also in a way you have been implying this, but some of the one of the important features of science if it work is that it is transcultural, transreligious, transnational, transling twisting.
29:49.675 --> 29:52.316
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not sadly the case with religions.
29:52.496 --> 29:54.037
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where the problem arises.
29:55.953 --> 30:00.476
[SPEAKER_02]: Science, in fact, from that perspective, is very definitely true.
30:00.496 --> 30:03.318
[SPEAKER_02]: You could be Jewish, you could be Muslim, Hindu, doesn't matter what.
30:03.678 --> 30:05.580
[SPEAKER_02]: You can work on the theory of relativity.
30:06.520 --> 30:12.405
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it doesn't have to belong to a particular country or a particular language or a particular religion.
30:13.285 --> 30:17.928
[SPEAKER_02]: This is in fact a part of the science which I think we need to very much enhance in equality.
30:18.568 --> 30:28.815
[SPEAKER_02]: But to attach what you have been speaking about, the spirit, I think I may have mentioned this probably David knows this or you may have heard me say that in 1979,
30:32.472 --> 30:43.607
[SPEAKER_02]: I had persuaded one wealthy person to provide some funds so that some of the bright physics students, graduates, students could come and spend three or six months in a Zen monastery.
30:45.483 --> 30:52.807
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was actually at earlier I had been at Princeton University as you know in 1968, 69.
30:53.507 --> 31:01.471
[SPEAKER_02]: So I offered it to the physics people in the Princeton University because I knew John Wheeler and Freeman Dyson, etc.
31:01.531 --> 31:07.634
[SPEAKER_02]: working there and absolutely no graduate student was willing to accept this.
31:09.821 --> 31:16.047
[SPEAKER_02]: And they did not have to pay a penny for it is was being offered at a scholarship, but absolutely nobody accepted it.
31:16.668 --> 31:24.335
[SPEAKER_02]: So if we want to train something or change something, how do we encourage them and to come and accept anything like this?
31:26.777 --> 31:29.099
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there would be more who would accept it now.
31:30.010 --> 31:36.191
[SPEAKER_01]: You think, oh, I don't out it because there is more of a spiritual awakening now.
31:36.251 --> 31:51.315
[SPEAKER_01]: When I started going to meditation retreats as an environmental scientist, so I was working as an environmental scientist in the 80s, and I started attending of the Pasta retreats and other spiritual retreats, and I'd go away for ten days at a time.
31:52.335 --> 32:00.440
[SPEAKER_01]: I was literally ridiculed by my colleagues, because they felt, you know, why are you wasting 10 days navel gazing?
32:00.860 --> 32:19.632
[SPEAKER_01]: When we have an earth to save, there's only a few of us doing it, and we need to, you know, based because I was in ecological and environmental scientists, so we're working on, you know, solutions to global warming and all this, why would you waste your time staring at your people like self-indulgent psychology major, or something?
32:20.438 --> 32:38.639
[SPEAKER_01]: So that attitude, I think, is shifted among many now to where there's a recognition, partly through mindfulness-based meditation, which John Cabot's in-made sort of more mainstream, but also a recognition, the younger generations are more open to spiritual inquiry.
32:39.179 --> 32:42.421
[SPEAKER_01]: and to challenging some of the narrow confines of science.
32:42.701 --> 32:49.444
[SPEAKER_01]: So some of this is going to be solved by the principle that Mox Plunks spoke of, which is that science advances one funeral at a time.
32:49.464 --> 32:52.345
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the old guard dies off.
32:52.825 --> 32:58.628
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the younger generation, for example, you know, many of the younger people under 50 are quite open to astrology.
32:58.988 --> 33:02.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, astrology is very, very basically taboo in science.
33:03.430 --> 33:06.992
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, there are 70 scientific studies that are now validating.
33:07.652 --> 33:23.977
[SPEAKER_01]: correlations between planetary motions and terrestrial and celestial correlations and so that's a body of science that's developing quite some rigorous backing and amazingly, it's actually validating some of the principles that Tollemy was using 2,000 years ago.
33:26.045 --> 33:31.408
[SPEAKER_01]: So they've now been statistically validated, some of the criteria that he was developing then.
33:31.668 --> 33:32.489
[SPEAKER_01]: How did he know?
33:33.229 --> 33:42.035
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew by some opening to a cosmic reality that now we have the sufficiently sophisticated computer power to actually test these things.
33:42.735 --> 33:48.197
[SPEAKER_01]: So bottom line, the younger generations, I think, are generally as a rule more open.
33:48.557 --> 33:56.799
[SPEAKER_01]: And as they move and advance and get into the controls of financing, scientific research, I think we'll see this open up in the next decade.
33:56.819 --> 34:07.622
[SPEAKER_02]: But you see the problem as I see it, the very younger people that you're speaking about, most of them, I suspect, don't qualify to do graduate work in physics.
34:08.736 --> 34:11.737
[SPEAKER_02]: because of their interests are already quite different.
34:12.537 --> 34:23.859
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember when I was a graduate student in physics at the University of Toronto, but having some interest in spiritual matters, my fellow graduate students used to laugh at me.
34:24.600 --> 34:31.301
[SPEAKER_02]: And then on one day, I actually heard one of them say to the other, just behind my back, oh well, he's from India.
34:31.861 --> 34:34.522
[SPEAKER_02]: That meant that I could be weird because I was from India.
34:35.176 --> 34:37.698
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is obviously stupid from their point of view.
34:38.838 --> 34:46.283
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm saying is that the people you're talking about, they are probably quite important intelligent people.
34:46.303 --> 34:53.728
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know important, but certainly intelligent people interested both in scientific perspective and spiritual perspective.
34:54.388 --> 34:58.691
[SPEAKER_02]: But almost certainly they are not doing graduate work in physics.
34:59.852 --> 35:01.213
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my sad impression.
35:03.627 --> 35:21.420
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, physics still has a very strong marriage to the surrealist cosmology, although I've also heard from a number of biologists that they've and medical scientists, that they feel that physics is more open to these things than their field is.
35:22.040 --> 35:27.021
[SPEAKER_01]: and they often tell me that we're still stuck in Newtonian ways of understanding.
35:27.041 --> 35:30.542
[SPEAKER_01]: We have any one opened yet to the quantum physics revelation.
35:31.302 --> 35:39.144
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's something that I so beautifully in the Bundaka Upanishad that I think really summarizes the true crisis of science.
35:39.524 --> 35:49.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's this wonderful line I'm sure you've heard it before, but this is of course a translation from the Sanskrit, ignorant of their own ignorance, yet wise in their own esteem.
35:50.187 --> 35:56.550
[SPEAKER_01]: these diluted men proud of their vain learning go round and round like the blind led by the blind.
35:58.471 --> 35:58.991
[SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful.
35:59.251 --> 36:08.295
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so captures the blind spot of actually fundamentalism whether it's scientific fundamentalism or religious fundamentalism.
36:08.496 --> 36:11.057
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fundamental limitation of the mind.
36:11.882 --> 36:22.132
[SPEAKER_01]: As the bug of our Gita says, and I don't, this is not exactly what I was paraphrasing, but it says, fool's take wisdom to be ignorance, and they cherish their own ignorance as wisdom.
36:24.074 --> 36:35.566
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is really the challenge in science, because when we get a piece of the truth, and we suddenly project it outwards to be the whole truth, then it becomes a lie, and it deceives us.
36:37.073 --> 36:52.215
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had an interesting vision once that kind of summarized the dilemma of the scientist which was seeing the whole body of scientific truth as a bunch of pipes and valves and levers all beautifully interconnected and working very well as a little machine.
36:53.467 --> 37:00.554
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, what happens is the sinus places mirrors on all sides of that little edifice, floating out in the cosmos.
37:00.574 --> 37:02.095
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little subset of reality.
37:02.495 --> 37:04.357
[SPEAKER_01]: Places mirrors all around on all sides.
37:04.778 --> 37:07.600
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it looks like it extends to infinity in all directions.
37:07.900 --> 37:09.682
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the totality of the cosmos.
37:10.022 --> 37:12.144
[SPEAKER_01]: And what they've actually done is blocked off.
37:14.246 --> 37:19.391
[SPEAKER_01]: The 99% of reality, and they've taken that 1% and expanded it in all of that.
37:19.911 --> 37:27.738
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we ought to be getting towards summarizing at the issues and therefore this wonderful conversation that you've been having.
37:28.298 --> 37:36.385
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, Will and I have known each other, as you said, more than 30 years, we even, he even took me on a small aeroplane, flaming over the Grand Canyon.
37:38.144 --> 37:44.448
[SPEAKER_02]: I still have the great memory of that, but we've not even summarized it from what David is saying.
37:44.468 --> 37:48.231
[SPEAKER_02]: In whatever field remarks you wish to make, I won't say anything now.
37:48.411 --> 37:49.152
[SPEAKER_02]: So, please say.
37:49.812 --> 37:52.374
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me now, please feel free to make remarks.
37:52.474 --> 38:01.700
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just start with that quote from the Moundaka Upanishad, because it's such a profound teaching about the limitations of human thought.
38:02.641 --> 38:05.143
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to recognize that thought itself,
38:06.135 --> 38:12.698
[SPEAKER_01]: is a barrier to deepening and awakening, the deeper levels of truth and reality.
38:13.019 --> 38:15.040
[SPEAKER_01]: David Bohn also put that very beautifully.
38:15.100 --> 38:21.243
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, thought creates structures, and then pretends they exist independently of thought.
38:22.561 --> 38:31.927
[SPEAKER_02]: Krishna Murthy's remark philosophy is search for wisdom, not for thought, this Krishna Murthy.
38:32.087 --> 38:33.128
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
38:33.848 --> 38:40.593
[SPEAKER_01]: And Krishna Murthy, who I was blessed to hear speak once, and he impacted me very deeply in my own life.
38:40.673 --> 38:46.317
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know this, but when I got my PhD, the instant I got my PhD,
38:47.463 --> 38:51.206
[SPEAKER_01]: And I turned in my dissertation and the guy was went off to file it.
38:51.346 --> 38:52.166
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the moment.
38:52.927 --> 38:57.730
[SPEAKER_01]: On his desk, there was this little book called Think On These Things by some guy named Christian Immorty.
38:57.950 --> 39:06.816
[SPEAKER_01]: And I picked it up and thumbed through it, expecting to enjoy ridiculing it because I was such the scientists who knew that all those horror Christianers were crazy.
39:07.477 --> 39:10.298
[SPEAKER_01]: And I started thumbing through it and I was blown away.
39:11.159 --> 39:29.070
[SPEAKER_01]: by what I was seeing and then I quickly put the book down before he came back and discovered I was going through things you know which I wasn't but I was so taken by it and I got him by he said congratulations Dr. Keepen so I was a fresh brand new PhD I got on my bicycle I rode to the bookstore and I was up till 3 a.m.
39:29.110 --> 39:38.196
[SPEAKER_01]: devouring that book so my spiritual training began the instant my secular training ended at my prayers that this can happen to all
39:41.937 --> 39:49.025
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, let me say this, this, this, this, Madaka Upanishad line, ignorant of their own ignorance, yet wise in their own esteem.
39:49.426 --> 39:53.931
[SPEAKER_01]: These diluted people proud of their vain learning go round and round like the blind led by the blind.
39:54.352 --> 39:59.137
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a teaching, a wisdom teaching that all human beings need.
40:00.078 --> 40:15.902
[SPEAKER_01]: If we could bring some of those kind of universal principles of the limitations of our faculties of perception, at least of mental, and of our physical perception, so that we can open into our spiritual perception, it's the birthright of humanity.
40:16.382 --> 40:18.923
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are impoverished if we haven't got that.
40:20.029 --> 40:28.293
[SPEAKER_01]: and somehow that needs to be brought back and recognized as a fundamental part of our education.
40:29.253 --> 40:33.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And it also, I think, with that would come a natural,
40:34.597 --> 40:50.650
[SPEAKER_01]: empathic resonance for the suffering of others, I mean that happens in spiritual development, and with that it comes a natural awakening of the heart and the principles of ethical and moral law become accessible to people.
40:51.150 --> 40:55.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Desmond Tutu, he was asked once, you know, Nelson Mandela was in prison.
40:55.472 --> 41:10.318
[SPEAKER_01]: A partite was fully in place and he was asked by a reporter saying, you know, this system has been in place for decades, you think you're little, you know, protests out in the streets or ever going to change it and he just, Desmond Tutu just laughed and he said that.
41:11.199 --> 41:12.739
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in a moral universe.
41:13.340 --> 41:18.422
[SPEAKER_01]: A partite is an immoral law, it can't possibly stand, it's going to crumble.
41:19.420 --> 41:22.946
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to crumble because it's out of alignment with the laws of the universe.
41:24.349 --> 41:26.092
[SPEAKER_00]: Whitehead says something very similar.
41:26.112 --> 41:30.740
[SPEAKER_00]: He said the instability of evil is the moral order of the world.
41:31.691 --> 41:41.740
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and somehow that teaching will come into hot science if science doesn't awaken to its own complicity and, you know, perpetuating evil.
41:42.601 --> 41:46.425
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not laying evil at the feet of science and not at all.
41:46.885 --> 41:53.091
[SPEAKER_02]: But if there is a possibility of some company, maybe Galileo Commission will do it,
41:57.695 --> 42:06.458
[SPEAKER_02]: calling something else, but precisely to be given to those scientists who are willing to at least accommodate other perceptions.
42:07.198 --> 42:13.801
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder actually square seriously, can we persuade some rich people to start a different kind of rise?
42:14.901 --> 42:16.922
[SPEAKER_02]: I was given some money by actually the
42:17.802 --> 42:20.844
[SPEAKER_02]: nephew of the Shah of Iran before their revolution there.
42:21.424 --> 42:22.985
[SPEAKER_02]: But then that was many years ago.
42:23.045 --> 42:24.746
[SPEAKER_02]: That's things have changed there completely.
42:25.346 --> 42:37.773
[SPEAKER_02]: So if some wealthy person can actually start a large prize, like temperature people had started something on science and religion, but it is very of shabka end of religion.
42:38.658 --> 42:43.359
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was at one of the judges there in their prizes.
42:43.859 --> 42:53.060
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but slightly different kind of prize, which actually accommodates precisely what you're trying to say, namely, bringing a scientific perspective.
42:53.080 --> 43:07.263
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't need to be against the scientific perspective, but to really see its limitations and its grandeur and to bring it with seeing the limitation and grandeur of religions, bringing them together into a spiritual understanding.
43:08.283 --> 43:11.665
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to find some wealthy people who would give a prize like this.
43:12.146 --> 43:24.774
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that's a very good vision aspirational note to pause the conversation, which I know could go on for many more minutes if not ours, because there's such a flow here.
43:24.795 --> 43:27.076
[SPEAKER_01]: William and I are great friends for a long time.
43:27.436 --> 43:31.399
[SPEAKER_01]: But one more sentence just to summarize everything we've been talking about.
43:31.839 --> 43:35.302
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in a culture that is enamored with the love of science.
43:36.168 --> 43:38.770
[SPEAKER_01]: yet we have failed to develop a science of love.
43:39.731 --> 43:41.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's what's needed.
43:41.652 --> 43:48.137
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're calling for a Nobel Prize equivalent for contributions to the science of love.
43:48.657 --> 43:54.501
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and serious, I'm serious about it, because love is a phenomenon that can be approached scientifically.
43:55.282 --> 44:00.466
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can develop that, and with that would come a whole new awakening within science.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you both very much indeed for that incredibly rich and stimulating conversation.
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to this Wise Scientist podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer, and I'm here with Professor Ravi Revindra and Dr. William Keepin to talk about the very important topic of wise scientists, which we've been pursuing this year in the Galileo Commission, following an initial paper by Ravi reflecting on the need for wise scientists in science in particular, but of course wisdom in society
00:41.275 --> 00:48.284
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm going to hand over to Ravi and Will and we'll get going on the conversation.
00:59.230 --> 01:00.991
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, thank you very much, David.
01:01.011 --> 01:02.211
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, David.
01:02.771 --> 01:11.974
[SPEAKER_02]: So we actually, both of us would agree that clearly one needs a very intelligent and creative mind to be a good scientist.
01:12.034 --> 01:13.274
[SPEAKER_02]: There is no doubt about that.
01:14.254 --> 01:27.278
[SPEAKER_02]: But from the perspective of the spiritual teachers, there is always a suggestion that what is really more important is to have a certain kind of wisdom, which is not the same thing as knowledge.
01:28.357 --> 01:32.798
[SPEAKER_02]: It includes love, compassion, a feeling of service.
01:33.399 --> 01:38.340
[SPEAKER_02]: So if we look at any of the great stages, these are the things we would associate with them.
01:38.920 --> 01:52.305
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we proceed to assist that that our creative scientists can also acquire not only acquire, but really even to say that it is necessary to have some wisdom.
01:53.105 --> 01:56.789
[SPEAKER_02]: otherwise science is used as you know, you can look at that 20th century.
01:57.249 --> 02:03.715
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just used for bigger and bigger weapons, all the nice work in quantum mechanics, relativity theory, what did it lead to?
02:04.656 --> 02:05.157
[SPEAKER_02]: Atumboa.
02:06.678 --> 02:08.360
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we proceed?
02:08.380 --> 02:09.641
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my question, really.
02:10.616 --> 02:14.178
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you for bringing such an important question forward.
02:14.979 --> 02:30.109
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in Los Alamos as you know, so I've sat with that question since I awakened to the reality of my hometown industry and I actually made a firm commitment to never be part of any weapons work at all.
02:30.849 --> 02:36.413
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I don't know why I just, I just was repulsed by it.
02:37.273 --> 02:56.549
[SPEAKER_01]: And I connected with those who were posing the arms race as a young man, but I wasn't setting out to be an activist of any kind at that time, but I remember I read the book The Art of Loving by Eric From, if you know that book, when I graduated from high school, this is a bit of an aside, but I decided, oh, great!
02:56.689 --> 02:57.870
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I'm all about.
02:58.210 --> 02:59.531
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to major in psychology.
03:00.632 --> 03:05.394
[SPEAKER_01]: That lasted for about two months when I went to university of my first course in psychology.
03:05.674 --> 03:09.375
[SPEAKER_01]: They were teaching behaviorism as if it was invaluable loss of physics.
03:10.195 --> 03:11.675
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was so offended.
03:11.695 --> 03:14.096
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, I know, I'm only 18.
03:14.196 --> 03:15.797
[SPEAKER_01]: I know I don't know anything.
03:16.057 --> 03:20.278
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is such an insult to the beauty of the human being.
03:20.938 --> 03:23.799
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember I switched my major to physics.
03:23.859 --> 03:27.340
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, it may be more boring, but at least it's true.
03:29.855 --> 03:32.396
[SPEAKER_00]: I call that rationality rather than psychology.
03:33.076 --> 03:33.716
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
03:33.776 --> 03:45.498
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't take another single course in psychology for another 25 years when I went back to graduate school to re-training Eastern philosophy and the best of Western philosophy and psychology.
03:45.558 --> 03:50.940
[SPEAKER_01]: So, anyway, that was of course a youthful decision at 18, you know, making a big rejection of the one.
03:51.040 --> 03:52.240
[SPEAKER_01]: But science...
03:53.208 --> 03:59.312
[SPEAKER_01]: In my view is seriously limited in two fundamental ways.
03:59.933 --> 04:07.157
[SPEAKER_01]: The first is the restriction of its ontology to a materialist cosmos.
04:07.838 --> 04:13.502
[SPEAKER_01]: The second is the restriction of its epistemology to the human mind.
04:15.023 --> 04:19.686
[SPEAKER_01]: And these two create a very narrow practice of science.
04:20.168 --> 04:22.891
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is not inherent in the scientific method.
04:23.231 --> 04:34.463
[SPEAKER_01]: The scientific method can be applied to spiritual inquiry, where you have essentially the spirit of experimentation, and you have the spirit of independent verification.
04:34.483 --> 04:38.667
[SPEAKER_01]: And these kinds of principles can be applied in a broader domain.
04:39.388 --> 04:44.692
[SPEAKER_01]: then traditional contemporary science has chosen to limit itself to.
04:45.492 --> 04:48.514
[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to begin by first saying Ravi, you and I have known each other.
04:48.534 --> 04:52.337
[SPEAKER_01]: I think 40 years plus.
04:52.657 --> 04:59.702
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing and I remember something you said which was really precient to me 35 years ago.
05:00.322 --> 05:06.987
[SPEAKER_01]: You said the greatest discovery of modern science is not quantum physics
05:08.488 --> 05:08.909
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
05:08.969 --> 05:11.671
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the greatest discovery of 20th century science.
05:12.292 --> 05:12.992
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what you said.
05:13.673 --> 05:20.540
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not any of these discoveries that we celebrate such as quantum physics and relativity theory and DNA.
05:20.980 --> 05:27.827
[SPEAKER_01]: You said the greatest discovery of 20th century science is the discovery of its own limitations.
05:29.837 --> 05:32.419
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is really, really crucial.
05:32.499 --> 05:34.621
[SPEAKER_01]: And science is still in that process.
05:35.042 --> 05:46.911
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that, for example, the recent discoveries in the last, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 years of dark matter, dark energy, where materialist science, two, it's credit.
05:47.672 --> 05:53.619
[SPEAKER_01]: has recognized that it has a grip on at most 6% of what's going on in the cosmos.
05:54.079 --> 06:02.549
[SPEAKER_01]: The other 94% is understood now to be what they call dark energy and dark matter, which really means we have a clue what's going on there.
06:02.949 --> 06:04.912
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, at the keep changing their number from 80% to 96%
06:09.365 --> 06:19.050
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the first major acknowledgments of the humility of scientific knowledge in the face of the fullness of reality.
06:19.790 --> 06:21.371
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's rare, I would say.
06:21.391 --> 06:26.654
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, one of the major problems in science, as well as in some ways it's strengths.
06:26.734 --> 06:35.498
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we have to recognize, for example, the whole process of new paradigms in science, you know, in Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper, very important revelation.
06:36.058 --> 06:39.543
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a reason that certain scientific theories stand for so long.
06:39.603 --> 06:41.486
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, taught me the astronomy stood for 1,800 years.
06:43.821 --> 06:50.542
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was revealed to be basically incorrect by Copernicus and Galileo and all of that.
06:51.202 --> 06:56.283
[SPEAKER_01]: But actually, the reason it stood for so long was because it gave predictions that were correct.
06:56.484 --> 07:03.605
[SPEAKER_01]: The phases of the moon were correctly predicted, the distances to the moon, these many things it gave correct predictions for.
07:04.045 --> 07:06.846
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet it was fundamentally mistaken at its foundation.
07:07.126 --> 07:08.566
[SPEAKER_01]: And here is a key lesson.
07:09.600 --> 07:13.561
[SPEAKER_01]: a wrong theory can give right results, and even right predictions.
07:14.401 --> 07:17.562
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is where science really gets trapped.
07:17.622 --> 07:19.922
[SPEAKER_01]: When you have a theory, you make a certain prediction.
07:20.123 --> 07:21.563
[SPEAKER_01]: You go test it experimentally.
07:21.843 --> 07:31.525
[SPEAKER_01]: And suddenly, you decide that experiment has validated the premises upon which your theory was based, not true, absolutely not true.
07:31.785 --> 07:34.406
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the best example of that is classical physics.
07:35.159 --> 07:40.101
[SPEAKER_01]: where we had all of these hundreds of thousands of experiments validating classical physics.
07:40.381 --> 07:44.482
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's these few little annoying anomalies, you know, the ultraviolet catastrophe.
07:44.902 --> 07:49.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Katastrophe itself was an example of how well science welcomed this new data.
07:49.824 --> 07:52.865
[SPEAKER_01]: Howling it, the ultraviolet catastrophe and the Michaelson Morley experiment.
07:53.345 --> 08:02.148
[SPEAKER_01]: And these small little anomalies that eventually, of course, toppled the entire edifice of classical physics and replaced them with quantum physics and relativity theory.
08:02.208 --> 08:03.369
[SPEAKER_01]: So beautiful.
08:04.169 --> 08:06.715
[SPEAKER_01]: Why should we assume that process is done happening?
08:08.659 --> 08:11.801
[SPEAKER_01]: you know science will continue to evolve in this way.
08:12.182 --> 08:18.426
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's now I'm still talking within the framework of ordinary science and ordinary scientific revolutions.
08:19.107 --> 08:23.270
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there are two types of scientific revolution that we need now.
08:23.850 --> 08:34.278
[SPEAKER_01]: The first is what I would call an ordinary scientific revolution which is that science will open to the data from frontier science and by that I mean.
08:35.058 --> 08:52.994
[SPEAKER_01]: broadly speaking, the science of consciousness, the realms, the phenomena of near-death experience, of paranormal phenomena, of reincarnation research, and many out-of-body experiences, many of these domains that are now sufficiently rigorously studied scientifically.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that they should be accepted as scientific phenomena.
08:57.139 --> 09:15.897
[SPEAKER_01]: A telepathy, for example, you probably know recently Rupert Scheldick challenged Pinker, Stephen Pinker at Harvard University, to debate on telepathy because Pinker, who wrote the book reality, and he's, I guess, a determined materialist, rationalist, the wrote a book called Reality, wasn't it?
09:16.997 --> 09:18.078
[SPEAKER_01]: I forget the name of his book.
09:18.378 --> 09:26.427
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, he basically said, I don't even need to look at the data on telepathy because I know it can't possibly be correct.
09:27.608 --> 09:33.775
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the foundation or philosophical pre-supposition that's bad to examine.
09:34.533 --> 09:35.514
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.
09:35.654 --> 09:40.559
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, how does that differ from the people who refuse to look through Galileo's telescope?
09:40.639 --> 09:41.880
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't differ at all.
09:42.521 --> 09:46.665
[SPEAKER_01]: Rupert Scheldreck challenged him to an intellectual debate about this.
09:47.646 --> 09:50.608
[SPEAKER_01]: But he refused and said he just didn't have a bandwidth for it.
09:50.628 --> 09:54.932
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was Brian Josephson who said he didn't have a bandwidth in more ways than one.
09:56.302 --> 10:05.347
[SPEAKER_02]: So, this is all, you know, I don't want to, right, but I want to, for a moment to come back to a point you have already made.
10:06.188 --> 10:22.537
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, because this is in a way part of the whole function of the Galileo Commission, to move away from a very basic understanding, not understanding, but assumption in modern science, right in from the 16th century, that the ultimate reality is matter.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
10:25.045 --> 10:32.128
[SPEAKER_02]: So, therefore, as you know, as a young physicist, mass length and time, that's what we need to get, MLT.
10:32.708 --> 10:41.513
[SPEAKER_02]: And then of course, in the 19th century, we added charge to it, because it was unable, we were not able to describe this in terms of MLT.
10:42.253 --> 10:45.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And then in the 20th century, spin was added because of quantum mechanics.
10:46.095 --> 10:48.556
[SPEAKER_02]: But the underlying assumption remains
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[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas the Galileo Commission really, this is the fundamental, at least in my understanding, the perspective is that it begins from consciousness, rather than from matter.
11:02.738 --> 11:06.499
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do we can, this is such a radical shift?
11:06.939 --> 11:08.780
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think we are going to proceed on this?
11:10.320 --> 11:13.341
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the other side has produced lots of ice weapons.
11:13.842 --> 11:19.243
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is not only that, it has also produced the fact that UNI can speak on Zoom, for example.
11:19.603 --> 11:21.144
[SPEAKER_02]: So we don't need to be against this.
11:22.020 --> 11:28.768
[SPEAKER_02]: but we need to understand the really almost the philosophical limitations of modern science.
11:29.373 --> 11:31.014
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
11:31.174 --> 11:41.079
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing I think any truly brilliant scientist realizes that mass length and time are all measured in a relative way.
11:41.880 --> 11:43.140
[SPEAKER_01]: So they're not absolute.
11:43.461 --> 11:44.601
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a standard meter.
11:44.621 --> 11:45.842
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a standard clock.
11:46.482 --> 11:48.083
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, these things are relative.
11:48.523 --> 11:50.184
[SPEAKER_01]: What actually is mass?
11:50.444 --> 11:52.005
[SPEAKER_01]: What actually is time?
11:52.986 --> 11:55.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Those questions are not asked often enough.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when they are, it
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[SPEAKER_01]: there are much more, you know, mysterious than then kind of our classical physics was revealing.
12:04.430 --> 12:14.494
[SPEAKER_01]: So my shortest answer to your question is that what we need within science is a spiritual awakening that is scientifically informed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What I mean by that is that I would say that you said the kind of the blind spot is that science assumes that material is the fundamental nature of reality.
12:27.455 --> 12:44.138
[SPEAKER_01]: The spiritual traditions across the traditions from neoplatonism, Western philosophy to the Eastern traditions, all basically posit based on experiential evidence of the mystics, if I could put it that way, that there are multiple levels of reality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's called the Great Chain of Being.
12:46.479 --> 13:01.548
[SPEAKER_01]: There are different ontological levels and very broadly speaking, there's the material realm and then beyond and somehow above, if you will, David Bowen identified this is what he called the Iplicate Order in his scientific model of it.
13:02.348 --> 13:10.053
[SPEAKER_01]: But basically beyond that, you have another realm, the archetypal realm, the soul realm, and then beyond that, you have another realm, the spiritual realm, the
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[SPEAKER_01]: the angelic realm or the god realms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, these are thoroughly rejected by science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And let me just say one thing about that rejection.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is so often, we see that both atheists and hardcore materialist science, they often reject
13:29.551 --> 13:42.199
[SPEAKER_01]: religion out of hand because they cite the fact that so many people have been killed in the name of God and therefore religion is clearly inherently evil and therefore should be abandoned altogether.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was point out that the same argument applies to science, namely,
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[SPEAKER_01]: chemistry gave us gunpowder and, you know, as chamber, physics gave us nuclear weapons, biology with a pure more fair and biological weapons.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These things yield untold millions of human beings.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, science is primafasy, evil, fundamentally evil.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, we should abandon it altogether.
14:10.151 --> 14:11.051
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the mentalist rejection of religion also applies to science
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[SPEAKER_00]: Antimoxism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's good for us to think in between religion and spiritual practice or spiritual search because religion I often have actually said and I really truly believe it More organized the religion, more harm it does to spiritual search.
14:37.535 --> 14:40.876
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as Christian Mertis said, truth is a pathless land.
14:41.897 --> 14:45.958
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, ultimately, that's really important.
14:46.339 --> 15:00.604
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the same time, and yeah, if you look at the religions at their deepest core, they all eventually transcend their own narrow framework, and they meet at the summit of mystical oneness.
15:00.904 --> 15:04.005
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a testitude by all the mystics across the religions.
15:04.845 --> 15:21.018
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's should be taken by scientists as a hint that maybe there is something real about the epistemology of spirit, because why should so many mystics across so many disparate cultures who never even had any connection be discovering the same ultimate truths?
15:21.618 --> 15:33.608
[SPEAKER_02]: This is why I often actually point out that at the very best any religion or any metaphysical description is that the very best is a single finger pointing to the moon.
15:34.544 --> 15:35.545
[SPEAKER_02]: moon, truth.
15:36.085 --> 15:39.268
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you get so stuck to the finger, you'll never get to the moon.
15:40.609 --> 15:43.471
[SPEAKER_02]: It is important to have all these religious background.
15:44.091 --> 15:45.392
[SPEAKER_02]: One can learn a great deal.
15:46.053 --> 15:50.997
[SPEAKER_02]: If I come from a Hindu background or a Christian background, great sage is in every religion.
15:51.977 --> 15:58.142
[SPEAKER_02]: But then to move beyond what they have been saying to actually experience what is being said.
16:01.055 --> 16:24.264
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I think another major blind spot in contemporary science and beloved Albert Einstein, who we love dearly, also got caught on this, is a belief in separation, is a refusal to accept the depth of the fundamental interconnection of the cosmos in which we live, and the recent
16:28.761 --> 16:40.548
[SPEAKER_01]: Elaine aspect and John Clouser and Anton Zilinger for their experiments that are basically proved non-locality and quantum entanglement is real.
16:41.388 --> 16:51.634
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is of course what Einstein's so vehemently repudiated and ridiculed as Spukov de Peronverkuk, the Spukov action at a distance
16:59.425 --> 17:00.545
[SPEAKER_01]: ridiculable, you know.
17:01.286 --> 17:09.009
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and bless his heart, he was coming from a deep conviction based on relativity theory that nothing can travel faster than this be light.
17:09.789 --> 17:12.930
[SPEAKER_01]: He simply couldn't accept that level of fundamental interconnection.
17:13.471 --> 17:14.851
[SPEAKER_01]: But bomb David Bowman, 1952,
17:17.212 --> 17:34.414
[SPEAKER_01]: Reformulated quantum physics something that John von Neumann had said cannot be done and he did it based on a hidden variable theory and non-mokality and basically boom essentially showed that non-mokality was essential in quantum physics
17:35.095 --> 17:37.918
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what the data we're showing, that's what the experiments we're showing.
17:38.178 --> 17:49.029
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm also proposed a redesign of the EPR paradox, which was based on particles and put it in terms of photons, which enabled a physical experimental test to be done.
17:49.550 --> 17:54.535
[SPEAKER_02]: So the example speaks about something you have otherwise been also emphasizing.
17:54.795 --> 17:57.778
[SPEAKER_02]: Boom was very much influenced by Krishna Muruti.
17:59.252 --> 18:00.734
[SPEAKER_02]: One could hardly deny this.
18:00.874 --> 18:01.755
[SPEAKER_02]: One can look at it.
18:02.235 --> 18:09.583
[SPEAKER_02]: I have myself actually spoke to Bohem, I have several meetings with him, and you can read his dialogues with Krishna Morathi.
18:10.364 --> 18:17.591
[SPEAKER_02]: So, in a way, he was so struck by Krishna Morathi's teaching, trying to put it in some kind of scientific terminology.
18:20.503 --> 18:36.597
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm basically coming to the point that this may be one way of enhancing the wisdom of scientists that if they can meet and work with and stay with some of the obviously remarkable people who bring a different kind of perception.
18:37.658 --> 18:41.342
[SPEAKER_02]: This may be one way of, but how do we arrange this?
18:43.632 --> 18:50.238
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, one thing that we could do is to celebrate David bone more than he has been celebrated.
18:50.658 --> 19:06.513
[SPEAKER_01]: He has been repudiated by the scientific community very unfairly so, as you may know, Robert Oppenheimer at one point said to his fellow physicists, if we cannot prove David bone wrong, then we must all agree to ignore him.
19:09.227 --> 19:11.568
[SPEAKER_01]: It's honestly an unscientific view.
19:12.108 --> 19:30.235
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you said about Bohm is really crucial because Bohm did reformulate quantum physics in 1952, and he basically is due some credit for the Nobel Prize that was given 70 years later for all those experiments that essentially prove that non-locality is real.
19:30.815 --> 19:50.928
[SPEAKER_01]: And the show that Einstein was mistaken, and then that bone not only did that, but he then reformulated all of quantum physics in what he called the holo movement, which was a holographic cosmos, in which the nature of the cosmos is a single undivided wholeness in which each part contains the hole in some sense.
19:51.748 --> 20:05.519
[SPEAKER_01]: That was only possible in my view, precisely because bomb opened to spiritually pistomologies, because of his dialogues, primarily with Christian immortality, but also with other spiritual masters like the Dalai Lama.
20:06.100 --> 20:19.331
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but also interest you to know that in 1979, when I was the director of a new prize or a new award called Award for Integrative Knowledge, we gave the first prize was given to boom.
20:20.832 --> 20:32.468
[SPEAKER_02]: So, in a way we have been trying personally to acknowledge his work, but as you say in the usual scientific world, now it may be more acceptable because of the recent work in quantum mechanics.
20:33.802 --> 20:39.945
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, but I think it should be recognized that Bon was 70 years ahead of his time.
20:40.265 --> 20:44.788
[SPEAKER_01]: He did correct Einstein on that fundamental point about spooky action of the distance.
20:45.148 --> 20:52.552
[SPEAKER_01]: He did recognize the fundamental interconnected nature of the cosmos, and he also brought in which is really crucial in my view.
20:53.332 --> 21:11.245
[SPEAKER_01]: the holographic, the fractal nature of reality which helps to explain mystical revelation because as Rumi says, and I'm paraphrasing here, you, each one of us, every human being, you are not just a drop from the infinite ocean.
21:11.786 --> 21:14.888
[SPEAKER_01]: You are the infinite ocean contained in a single drop.
21:15.965 --> 21:20.772
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the epistemology by which the mystics know what they know.
21:21.153 --> 21:29.084
[SPEAKER_01]: They go into the depths of their own inner being, and they discover through their own hearts that they have access to the full infinity of divinity.
21:29.915 --> 21:46.804
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is attested to a cross, the mystics, the Mahavakyas of the Upanishads, or myster Eckhart who says, you know, when God opens the heart, God pours all of his beauty, all of his infinity, all of his divinity into the pure heart of his beloved disciple.
21:47.444 --> 21:52.506
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is, but you realize this is the reason why he was also condemned by the Catholic Church.
21:55.505 --> 22:05.819
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason I keep saying that we need to move away from religion, but stay with the real perceptors, people who actually experience something and speak about it.
22:06.640 --> 22:11.026
[SPEAKER_01]: So we need to uplift the spiritual mystics of the people.
22:11.907 --> 22:36.397
[SPEAKER_01]: and their epistemology, and this is another major opening that I think is needed in science, which is what I call opening to the epistemology of the heart, to recognize that the human heart is the fundamental organ of spiritual perception, and it has its only epistemology, which works in a different way from the ways of the mental process of human reason.
22:37.197 --> 22:43.402
[SPEAKER_01]: And the heart's epistemology works more by a process of unveiling layers.
22:44.183 --> 22:53.591
[SPEAKER_01]: And as each layer is unveiled, a new reality is revealed, and then that reality is revealed, eventually to be a veil over a deeper level of reality.
22:54.031 --> 23:03.720
[SPEAKER_01]: And this unveiling of the heart is a kind of revelatory epistemology, which also has a very precise order and structure,
23:05.893 --> 23:14.276
[SPEAKER_01]: but forward in a scientific way of understanding it and can be validated independently by different mystics pursuing the same epistemology.
23:14.616 --> 23:21.418
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not unscientific, but it's not allowable or admissible in today's materialist scientific paradigm.
23:21.438 --> 23:32.602
[SPEAKER_02]: But even some of the greatest scientists actually say that they came to their fundamental assumption or understanding more from feeling they may use the word inducia.
23:33.555 --> 23:45.161
[SPEAKER_02]: But actually there is a remark of Pascal, particularly which I frequently end up quoting, he actually says that hard has reason that reason does not know.
23:46.237 --> 23:49.179
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is important for reason to know its limitations.
23:49.639 --> 23:52.260
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Pascal, hardly a negligible scientist.
23:52.801 --> 24:03.547
[SPEAKER_02]: Similarly Einstein makes something very similar to this remark, not quite the same words, where he says one is always struck by the mysterious behind everything else.
24:04.147 --> 24:05.188
[SPEAKER_02]: Similarly Newton.
24:05.448 --> 24:09.930
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, some of the greatest scientists actually come back to this, but it is true.
24:09.990 --> 24:14.413
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't get conveyed at the level of training for being a scientist.
24:16.471 --> 24:16.771
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:16.911 --> 24:21.793
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think something around, I mean, I have a PhD in mathematical physics.
24:21.833 --> 24:23.854
[SPEAKER_01]: You do too among your many degrees.
24:24.675 --> 24:31.577
[SPEAKER_01]: I never once in that whole training got anything even close to a course in scientific ethics.
24:32.238 --> 24:33.678
[SPEAKER_01]: Very concept doesn't exist.
24:34.199 --> 24:35.699
[SPEAKER_01]: Not philosophical ethics.
24:35.779 --> 24:36.840
[SPEAKER_01]: No ethics at all.
24:37.480 --> 24:44.268
[SPEAKER_01]: When I got PhD, the military recruiters were there at my graduate school offering me jobs.
24:44.769 --> 24:51.236
[SPEAKER_01]: In Lockheed Martin, and I forget the names of the defense contractors Boeing and others.
24:51.617 --> 24:56.643
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, I took an interview with Boeing, and they flew me to Seattle, and I knew I would never work for them.
24:57.343 --> 25:01.006
[SPEAKER_01]: but I got to be right to Seattle and I thought I need a little professional experience.
25:01.427 --> 25:12.556
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were basically, at the very end, they said, well, this project that we want you to come on board with is called LCM and they kept LCM, this LCM, and I finally asked, you know, what exactly is it?
25:12.616 --> 25:14.438
[SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, it's a launch cruise missile.
25:15.979 --> 25:24.306
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I had joined that job that was on offer right out of graduate school, I would have been part of the team that developed the cruise missile.
25:25.197 --> 25:35.483
[SPEAKER_02]: This is true, you can even statistically look at most people who do PhD in physics, majority of them work either for the industry or for military.
25:36.239 --> 25:37.160
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, I know.
25:37.820 --> 25:41.083
[SPEAKER_02]: A few, of course, in the academic work, teaching big-on professors.
25:41.844 --> 25:46.487
[SPEAKER_02]: But the others are all working for the military, or for the industry, making money or power.
25:47.148 --> 25:49.230
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really rather tragic to see all of this.
25:49.830 --> 25:59.959
[SPEAKER_01]: Foundly tragic, and so it's part of the solution is to begin to name the reality that science has been co-opted by another agenda.
26:00.219 --> 26:03.762
[SPEAKER_01]: Science is supposed to be the way I understand it
26:06.007 --> 26:11.749
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's a quest for truth, then we have to face the truth of how it's been co-opted.
26:12.549 --> 26:17.931
[SPEAKER_01]: And we also have to open to the truths of the heart as part of the domain of truth.
26:18.331 --> 26:21.993
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we do that, we open to the deep truths of love and wisdom.
26:22.773 --> 26:25.834
[SPEAKER_01]: And as you said, some of the best scientists were aware of these things.
26:26.174 --> 26:30.856
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet their inventions were often turned to destructive purposes.
26:35.389 --> 26:38.853
[SPEAKER_02]: the difficulties, you see the same thing with Einstein in a way.
26:39.835 --> 26:46.102
[SPEAKER_02]: On the one hand, Einstein or Newton will very much acknowledge the existence of something very divine.
26:46.182 --> 26:50.187
[SPEAKER_02]: They may even say ultimately, they may use the word God or may not use the word God.
26:51.229 --> 26:51.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But
26:51.865 --> 26:55.469
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't become part of their scientific research.
26:55.970 --> 26:58.933
[SPEAKER_02]: What gets published has nothing to do with God.
26:58.953 --> 27:06.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in a way, Newton's writing, Newton wrote more words in theology and alchemy than actually in physics or mathematics.
27:07.423 --> 27:09.326
[SPEAKER_02]: But most of those were hidden until 1941.
27:11.822 --> 27:14.943
[SPEAKER_02]: Newton died in 1720 I think.
27:15.623 --> 27:17.484
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was all hidden until 1941.
27:18.724 --> 27:37.129
[SPEAKER_02]: So what happened that even those people who actually feel that very strongly kind of a spiritual feeling, they may not even necessarily use the word spiritual, but they have this feeling from their heart that there is something very mysterious, something very grand, but it doesn't get part of actually doing physics.
27:39.877 --> 27:50.080
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I think is the true profound crisis of science today is this lack of opening to these other dimensions.
27:50.341 --> 27:54.622
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear a lot in recent years about the metacrisis in science, which is a good thing.
27:55.442 --> 28:04.225
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all about recognizing the low quality of much of the statistical analysis and many scientific experiments actually do not stand up to replication.
28:04.525 --> 28:05.746
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's being exposed.
28:06.706 --> 28:08.907
[SPEAKER_01]: but that isn't the real crisis of science.
28:08.987 --> 28:20.294
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, the real crisis of science is its narrow epistemology and narrow materialist cosmology and its utter lack of ethical laws and foundations within its own domain.
28:21.852 --> 28:42.608
[SPEAKER_01]: And if that could be introduced in scientific training, I think it would be an enormous transformation that science as a quest for truth is really one of the highest columns there is for the human, the same way that spiritual calling is one of the highest columns there is.
28:43.369 --> 28:45.571
[SPEAKER_01]: And in spiritual life,
28:46.788 --> 29:00.277
[SPEAKER_01]: the divine, whatever we call that transcendent reality, it responds to, it be stoves divine love and divine grace in the hearts of every human being, if they are to it.
29:00.697 --> 29:04.340
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to the extent that they are receptive to it, it magnifies that.
29:05.140 --> 29:19.245
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we see that in constantly in spiritual masters who do incredible work in the world, far beyond what one human being could accomplish, simply because they're working with a much bigger deck of ontological reality than just the mind.
29:20.505 --> 29:25.387
[SPEAKER_01]: And even scientists are doing the same thing, but they don't really
29:26.624 --> 29:32.407
[SPEAKER_01]: They might acknowledge it in a certain personal memoir, but they never bring it into the formal science they're doing.
29:32.507 --> 29:32.967
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
29:33.447 --> 29:47.634
[SPEAKER_02]: But also in a way you have been implying this, but some of the one of the important features of science if it work is that it is transcultural, transreligious, transnational, transling twisting.
29:49.675 --> 29:52.316
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not sadly the case with religions.
29:52.496 --> 29:54.037
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where the problem arises.
29:55.953 --> 30:00.476
[SPEAKER_02]: Science, in fact, from that perspective, is very definitely true.
30:00.496 --> 30:03.318
[SPEAKER_02]: You could be Jewish, you could be Muslim, Hindu, doesn't matter what.
30:03.678 --> 30:05.580
[SPEAKER_02]: You can work on the theory of relativity.
30:06.520 --> 30:12.405
[SPEAKER_02]: So, it doesn't have to belong to a particular country or a particular language or a particular religion.
30:13.285 --> 30:17.928
[SPEAKER_02]: This is in fact a part of the science which I think we need to very much enhance in equality.
30:18.568 --> 30:28.815
[SPEAKER_02]: But to attach what you have been speaking about, the spirit, I think I may have mentioned this probably David knows this or you may have heard me say that in 1979,
30:32.472 --> 30:43.607
[SPEAKER_02]: I had persuaded one wealthy person to provide some funds so that some of the bright physics students, graduates, students could come and spend three or six months in a Zen monastery.
30:45.483 --> 30:52.807
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was actually at earlier I had been at Princeton University as you know in 1968, 69.
30:53.507 --> 31:01.471
[SPEAKER_02]: So I offered it to the physics people in the Princeton University because I knew John Wheeler and Freeman Dyson, etc.
31:01.531 --> 31:07.634
[SPEAKER_02]: working there and absolutely no graduate student was willing to accept this.
31:09.821 --> 31:16.047
[SPEAKER_02]: And they did not have to pay a penny for it is was being offered at a scholarship, but absolutely nobody accepted it.
31:16.668 --> 31:24.335
[SPEAKER_02]: So if we want to train something or change something, how do we encourage them and to come and accept anything like this?
31:26.777 --> 31:29.099
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there would be more who would accept it now.
31:30.010 --> 31:36.191
[SPEAKER_01]: You think, oh, I don't out it because there is more of a spiritual awakening now.
31:36.251 --> 31:51.315
[SPEAKER_01]: When I started going to meditation retreats as an environmental scientist, so I was working as an environmental scientist in the 80s, and I started attending of the Pasta retreats and other spiritual retreats, and I'd go away for ten days at a time.
31:52.335 --> 32:00.440
[SPEAKER_01]: I was literally ridiculed by my colleagues, because they felt, you know, why are you wasting 10 days navel gazing?
32:00.860 --> 32:19.632
[SPEAKER_01]: When we have an earth to save, there's only a few of us doing it, and we need to, you know, based because I was in ecological and environmental scientists, so we're working on, you know, solutions to global warming and all this, why would you waste your time staring at your people like self-indulgent psychology major, or something?
32:20.438 --> 32:38.639
[SPEAKER_01]: So that attitude, I think, is shifted among many now to where there's a recognition, partly through mindfulness-based meditation, which John Cabot's in-made sort of more mainstream, but also a recognition, the younger generations are more open to spiritual inquiry.
32:39.179 --> 32:42.421
[SPEAKER_01]: and to challenging some of the narrow confines of science.
32:42.701 --> 32:49.444
[SPEAKER_01]: So some of this is going to be solved by the principle that Mox Plunks spoke of, which is that science advances one funeral at a time.
32:49.464 --> 32:52.345
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the old guard dies off.
32:52.825 --> 32:58.628
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the younger generation, for example, you know, many of the younger people under 50 are quite open to astrology.
32:58.988 --> 33:02.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, astrology is very, very basically taboo in science.
33:03.430 --> 33:06.992
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, there are 70 scientific studies that are now validating.
33:07.652 --> 33:23.977
[SPEAKER_01]: correlations between planetary motions and terrestrial and celestial correlations and so that's a body of science that's developing quite some rigorous backing and amazingly, it's actually validating some of the principles that Tollemy was using 2,000 years ago.
33:26.045 --> 33:31.408
[SPEAKER_01]: So they've now been statistically validated, some of the criteria that he was developing then.
33:31.668 --> 33:32.489
[SPEAKER_01]: How did he know?
33:33.229 --> 33:42.035
[SPEAKER_01]: He knew by some opening to a cosmic reality that now we have the sufficiently sophisticated computer power to actually test these things.
33:42.735 --> 33:48.197
[SPEAKER_01]: So bottom line, the younger generations, I think, are generally as a rule more open.
33:48.557 --> 33:56.799
[SPEAKER_01]: And as they move and advance and get into the controls of financing, scientific research, I think we'll see this open up in the next decade.
33:56.819 --> 34:07.622
[SPEAKER_02]: But you see the problem as I see it, the very younger people that you're speaking about, most of them, I suspect, don't qualify to do graduate work in physics.
34:08.736 --> 34:11.737
[SPEAKER_02]: because of their interests are already quite different.
34:12.537 --> 34:23.859
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember when I was a graduate student in physics at the University of Toronto, but having some interest in spiritual matters, my fellow graduate students used to laugh at me.
34:24.600 --> 34:31.301
[SPEAKER_02]: And then on one day, I actually heard one of them say to the other, just behind my back, oh well, he's from India.
34:31.861 --> 34:34.522
[SPEAKER_02]: That meant that I could be weird because I was from India.
34:35.176 --> 34:37.698
[SPEAKER_02]: But this is obviously stupid from their point of view.
34:38.838 --> 34:46.283
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm saying is that the people you're talking about, they are probably quite important intelligent people.
34:46.303 --> 34:53.728
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know important, but certainly intelligent people interested both in scientific perspective and spiritual perspective.
34:54.388 --> 34:58.691
[SPEAKER_02]: But almost certainly they are not doing graduate work in physics.
34:59.852 --> 35:01.213
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my sad impression.
35:03.627 --> 35:21.420
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, physics still has a very strong marriage to the surrealist cosmology, although I've also heard from a number of biologists that they've and medical scientists, that they feel that physics is more open to these things than their field is.
35:22.040 --> 35:27.021
[SPEAKER_01]: and they often tell me that we're still stuck in Newtonian ways of understanding.
35:27.041 --> 35:30.542
[SPEAKER_01]: We have any one opened yet to the quantum physics revelation.
35:31.302 --> 35:39.144
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's something that I so beautifully in the Bundaka Upanishad that I think really summarizes the true crisis of science.
35:39.524 --> 35:49.447
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's this wonderful line I'm sure you've heard it before, but this is of course a translation from the Sanskrit, ignorant of their own ignorance, yet wise in their own esteem.
35:50.187 --> 35:56.550
[SPEAKER_01]: these diluted men proud of their vain learning go round and round like the blind led by the blind.
35:58.471 --> 35:58.991
[SPEAKER_00]: Wonderful.
35:59.251 --> 36:08.295
[SPEAKER_01]: That's so captures the blind spot of actually fundamentalism whether it's scientific fundamentalism or religious fundamentalism.
36:08.496 --> 36:11.057
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fundamental limitation of the mind.
36:11.882 --> 36:22.132
[SPEAKER_01]: As the bug of our Gita says, and I don't, this is not exactly what I was paraphrasing, but it says, fool's take wisdom to be ignorance, and they cherish their own ignorance as wisdom.
36:24.074 --> 36:35.566
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is really the challenge in science, because when we get a piece of the truth, and we suddenly project it outwards to be the whole truth, then it becomes a lie, and it deceives us.
36:37.073 --> 36:52.215
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had an interesting vision once that kind of summarized the dilemma of the scientist which was seeing the whole body of scientific truth as a bunch of pipes and valves and levers all beautifully interconnected and working very well as a little machine.
36:53.467 --> 37:00.554
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, what happens is the sinus places mirrors on all sides of that little edifice, floating out in the cosmos.
37:00.574 --> 37:02.095
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little subset of reality.
37:02.495 --> 37:04.357
[SPEAKER_01]: Places mirrors all around on all sides.
37:04.778 --> 37:07.600
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it looks like it extends to infinity in all directions.
37:07.900 --> 37:09.682
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the totality of the cosmos.
37:10.022 --> 37:12.144
[SPEAKER_01]: And what they've actually done is blocked off.
37:14.246 --> 37:19.391
[SPEAKER_01]: The 99% of reality, and they've taken that 1% and expanded it in all of that.
37:19.911 --> 37:27.738
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we ought to be getting towards summarizing at the issues and therefore this wonderful conversation that you've been having.
37:28.298 --> 37:36.385
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, Will and I have known each other, as you said, more than 30 years, we even, he even took me on a small aeroplane, flaming over the Grand Canyon.
37:38.144 --> 37:44.448
[SPEAKER_02]: I still have the great memory of that, but we've not even summarized it from what David is saying.
37:44.468 --> 37:48.231
[SPEAKER_02]: In whatever field remarks you wish to make, I won't say anything now.
37:48.411 --> 37:49.152
[SPEAKER_02]: So, please say.
37:49.812 --> 37:52.374
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me now, please feel free to make remarks.
37:52.474 --> 38:01.700
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just start with that quote from the Moundaka Upanishad, because it's such a profound teaching about the limitations of human thought.
38:02.641 --> 38:05.143
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to recognize that thought itself,
38:06.135 --> 38:12.698
[SPEAKER_01]: is a barrier to deepening and awakening, the deeper levels of truth and reality.
38:13.019 --> 38:15.040
[SPEAKER_01]: David Bohn also put that very beautifully.
38:15.100 --> 38:21.243
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, thought creates structures, and then pretends they exist independently of thought.
38:22.561 --> 38:31.927
[SPEAKER_02]: Krishna Murthy's remark philosophy is search for wisdom, not for thought, this Krishna Murthy.
38:32.087 --> 38:33.128
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
38:33.848 --> 38:40.593
[SPEAKER_01]: And Krishna Murthy, who I was blessed to hear speak once, and he impacted me very deeply in my own life.
38:40.673 --> 38:46.317
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you know this, but when I got my PhD, the instant I got my PhD,
38:47.463 --> 38:51.206
[SPEAKER_01]: And I turned in my dissertation and the guy was went off to file it.
38:51.346 --> 38:52.166
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the moment.
38:52.927 --> 38:57.730
[SPEAKER_01]: On his desk, there was this little book called Think On These Things by some guy named Christian Immorty.
38:57.950 --> 39:06.816
[SPEAKER_01]: And I picked it up and thumbed through it, expecting to enjoy ridiculing it because I was such the scientists who knew that all those horror Christianers were crazy.
39:07.477 --> 39:10.298
[SPEAKER_01]: And I started thumbing through it and I was blown away.
39:11.159 --> 39:29.070
[SPEAKER_01]: by what I was seeing and then I quickly put the book down before he came back and discovered I was going through things you know which I wasn't but I was so taken by it and I got him by he said congratulations Dr. Keepen so I was a fresh brand new PhD I got on my bicycle I rode to the bookstore and I was up till 3 a.m.
39:29.110 --> 39:38.196
[SPEAKER_01]: devouring that book so my spiritual training began the instant my secular training ended at my prayers that this can happen to all
39:41.937 --> 39:49.025
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, let me say this, this, this, this, Madaka Upanishad line, ignorant of their own ignorance, yet wise in their own esteem.
39:49.426 --> 39:53.931
[SPEAKER_01]: These diluted people proud of their vain learning go round and round like the blind led by the blind.
39:54.352 --> 39:59.137
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a teaching, a wisdom teaching that all human beings need.
40:00.078 --> 40:15.902
[SPEAKER_01]: If we could bring some of those kind of universal principles of the limitations of our faculties of perception, at least of mental, and of our physical perception, so that we can open into our spiritual perception, it's the birthright of humanity.
40:16.382 --> 40:18.923
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are impoverished if we haven't got that.
40:20.029 --> 40:28.293
[SPEAKER_01]: and somehow that needs to be brought back and recognized as a fundamental part of our education.
40:29.253 --> 40:33.455
[SPEAKER_01]: And it also, I think, with that would come a natural,
40:34.597 --> 40:50.650
[SPEAKER_01]: empathic resonance for the suffering of others, I mean that happens in spiritual development, and with that it comes a natural awakening of the heart and the principles of ethical and moral law become accessible to people.
40:51.150 --> 40:55.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Desmond Tutu, he was asked once, you know, Nelson Mandela was in prison.
40:55.472 --> 41:10.318
[SPEAKER_01]: A partite was fully in place and he was asked by a reporter saying, you know, this system has been in place for decades, you think you're little, you know, protests out in the streets or ever going to change it and he just, Desmond Tutu just laughed and he said that.
41:11.199 --> 41:12.739
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in a moral universe.
41:13.340 --> 41:18.422
[SPEAKER_01]: A partite is an immoral law, it can't possibly stand, it's going to crumble.
41:19.420 --> 41:22.946
[SPEAKER_01]: It has to crumble because it's out of alignment with the laws of the universe.
41:24.349 --> 41:26.092
[SPEAKER_00]: Whitehead says something very similar.
41:26.112 --> 41:30.740
[SPEAKER_00]: He said the instability of evil is the moral order of the world.
41:31.691 --> 41:41.740
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and somehow that teaching will come into hot science if science doesn't awaken to its own complicity and, you know, perpetuating evil.
41:42.601 --> 41:46.425
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not laying evil at the feet of science and not at all.
41:46.885 --> 41:53.091
[SPEAKER_02]: But if there is a possibility of some company, maybe Galileo Commission will do it,
41:57.695 --> 42:06.458
[SPEAKER_02]: calling something else, but precisely to be given to those scientists who are willing to at least accommodate other perceptions.
42:07.198 --> 42:13.801
[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder actually square seriously, can we persuade some rich people to start a different kind of rise?
42:14.901 --> 42:16.922
[SPEAKER_02]: I was given some money by actually the
42:17.802 --> 42:20.844
[SPEAKER_02]: nephew of the Shah of Iran before their revolution there.
42:21.424 --> 42:22.985
[SPEAKER_02]: But then that was many years ago.
42:23.045 --> 42:24.746
[SPEAKER_02]: That's things have changed there completely.
42:25.346 --> 42:37.773
[SPEAKER_02]: So if some wealthy person can actually start a large prize, like temperature people had started something on science and religion, but it is very of shabka end of religion.
42:38.658 --> 42:43.359
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was at one of the judges there in their prizes.
42:43.859 --> 42:53.060
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but slightly different kind of prize, which actually accommodates precisely what you're trying to say, namely, bringing a scientific perspective.
42:53.080 --> 43:07.263
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't need to be against the scientific perspective, but to really see its limitations and its grandeur and to bring it with seeing the limitation and grandeur of religions, bringing them together into a spiritual understanding.
43:08.283 --> 43:11.665
[SPEAKER_02]: We need to find some wealthy people who would give a prize like this.
43:12.146 --> 43:24.774
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that's a very good vision aspirational note to pause the conversation, which I know could go on for many more minutes if not ours, because there's such a flow here.
43:24.795 --> 43:27.076
[SPEAKER_01]: William and I are great friends for a long time.
43:27.436 --> 43:31.399
[SPEAKER_01]: But one more sentence just to summarize everything we've been talking about.
43:31.839 --> 43:35.302
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in a culture that is enamored with the love of science.
43:36.168 --> 43:38.770
[SPEAKER_01]: yet we have failed to develop a science of love.
43:39.731 --> 43:41.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's what's needed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're calling for a Nobel Prize equivalent for contributions to the science of love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and serious, I'm serious about it, because love is a phenomenon that can be approached scientifically.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we can develop that, and with that would come a whole new awakening within science.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you both very much indeed for that incredibly rich and stimulating conversation.
