WEBVTT
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[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer and I'm speaking as chair of the Galileo Commission to introduce one of our pollcasts with Ravir Vindra and Eddie Belimoria on Wise Scientists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is a sub-project of the Galileo Commission.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and one led by Ravi who himself is a physicist and mystic and Eddie is an engineer and mystic and so they both bridge this gap between science and mysticism, science and spirituality and what they're talking about
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[SPEAKER_00]: in this podcast is how scientists can arrive at wisdom and how the root force of lack of wisdom in terms of love of money can be overcome.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that Ravi and Eddie are optimistic or pessimistic about the world, but rather realistic as they argue themselves.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But they do think that it's possible to create a nucleus of scientists concerned with wisdom and that the important factor here is not theory or belief, but rather experience.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sure you'll find this extraordinarily illuminating as a conversation between these two wise scientists.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy!
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[SPEAKER_03]: So let me invite you ready to speak a little bit about how we approach the whole question of wisdom because not everybody even makes the same meaning out of the word wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Then how can we assist scientists or really anybody including ourselves?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How are we wise?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do we become wise?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Ravi, thank you very much for inviting me to answer
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[SPEAKER_01]: What I would regard as just about the most profound question anyone could ever ask.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Firstly, let me say, given what's going on in the world now, it's very easy to be pessimistic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We only heard a week ago about a new hypersonic missile, experimental hypersonic missile that's being fired and tested.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And on the upper hand,
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[SPEAKER_01]: We hear about Japanese scientists who invented, so to speak, a new form of plastic that can be eaten devoured by microbes, so it would create such pollution.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we see a huge dichotomy between the dark side of science and technology and the brighter side.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very easy to be pessimistic, but let's just
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[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, just this one story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Shubat, two years before he died, he had died at the age of thirty-one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He completed his ninth symphony.
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[SPEAKER_01]: His ninth symphony known as the Great Symphony, is played all over the world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's one of the most beloved works.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was discovered ten years after Shubat's death.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was discovered by Robert Schumann,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was given to Schumann by Schubert's brother, Ferdinand, and Schumann then took it to Leipzig, and the first performance was conducted by Mendelssohn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm saying, Ravi, is we can sow seeds of whatever wisdom and compassion and understanding we have, and they will sprout in the fullness of time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I keep telling myself not to be pessimistic and reminding myself of this story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It can be very debilitating otherwise to be faced with the weight of inequity that we see and find ourselves in the world at the moment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now what can we do?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We have to be absolutely practical.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I really think Ravi, there is more than enough
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[SPEAKER_01]: philosophy and wise words of wisdom from the great scientists, the great philosophers were almost since time immemorial.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not cutting much ice, it is obviously making a difference.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The problem we had is we are not addressing the root cause of the problem, which is money.
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[SPEAKER_01]: money, greed, control, and power, they're all part of one low quality of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So unless we can somehow convince scientists that there is, how can I put its spiritual currency in wisdom?
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to take us seriously.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the problem we are faced with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If there's no money in it, oh well, that's all lovely philosophy, but we'll carry on on the same path.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we have somehow to convince them that for a full life science provides the efficiency on the physical level.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Religion provides the morality and philosophy provides the ethic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, dare you talk about religion?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we really have to try and turn it around in their language and show them
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[SPEAKER_01]: that what we are proposing is for their own benefit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's a bit of a long-winded answer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but let me actually raise here first of all.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You said you're wishing to be not pessimistic, but one doesn't therefore need to be optimistic.
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[SPEAKER_03]: As we look at the history of the world at any given time,
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[SPEAKER_03]: There have been occasional maybe a few years when there was some more tranquility on the planet.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But I sometimes remind myself that even with the teachings of the Christ in his presence, how many people followed him?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Even though thousands heard him, so did the world situation change because of Christ or because of the Buddha or because of any of the stages?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So we don't need to therefore be either optimistic or pessimistic, but to give this realistic.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That is just the way the world is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And is almost always going to continue to be like that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But for a few people, to imagine that we can have the whole world become more and more concerned with wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's living in Klaus Kukuland.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, fantastic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi, let me then
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[SPEAKER_01]: point you to the first object of the geosophagus society, really, which is really to create, whether it's been successful in an artist another point, but the ideas to create a nucleus of the brotherhood and man, that thisophagus society had never said they're going to make all men brotherly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can create
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[SPEAKER_01]: And here I'm really optimistic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we can create a powerful nucleus, that will expand because it's in the nature of a nucleus to be centrifugal in its activity, isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the primary ingredient for that nucleus is absolute sincerity of purpose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We may have different ideas, but if we are really sincere,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that whatever we say, even though it may be in that jaw that languished for ten years like the symphony, it will be discovered and taken up.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So all we can do is create that new place.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And one key thing is somehow, when a legendary famous scientist has a real conversion or a change of heart,
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[SPEAKER_01]: inevitably invariably as a result of some catastrophe, a near-death experience, light-pressed off-cog, that will provide that nucleus, which hopefully, when it reaches critical mass, would promulgate a few seeds of wisdom and mixing metaphors here, of course.
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[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that you had mentioned, even in the beginning today, that somehow we need to invite something from religious side.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But my own impression is historically, religions have done more harm to spiritual search than any other organization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Indigenous Muslims.
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[SPEAKER_01]: One of my passions, Radhees, to show the unity
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[SPEAKER_01]: and the ethical basis of all religions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now I know this is a tall order and this is why I spent so long on things chapter seven, volume two, my unfurled unconsciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The stupid thing is people regard religion as a belief system.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have heard personally talks at the Royal Institution and the Royal Society where the scientist says, religion is based on belief
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[SPEAKER_01]: But science is based on fact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What a load of rubbish.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Science has its.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Scientism is almost a religious cult.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we can possibly drag a scientist out of his Plato's cave and show him the wider picture.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why not convince, we're not into convincing, but try and show him that as Colleen would said,
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[SPEAKER_01]: that the answer to any question presupposes the question which has its own presuppositions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if we try and answer questions about the higher reality through intellect, the problem is that any definition is always going to be partial and it's always going to be one-sided because
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is tied down to the intellect, which only deals with finite things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if a scientist can understand this elementary philosophy, then we'll go somewhere else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, but you see, we have to throw them, Ravi, that the intellect is wonderful, but the intellect can only deal with finite things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: God consciousness, whatever you like to call it, which is not the same thing, but the infinite cannot be put into a box and intellectually analyze.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to somehow draw on experience, not on definitions and theory.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So try and bring out the experience of the scientists to say to him, all right, you might think the world is only matter and all that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Did you witness the birth of your child?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What did you feel then?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Don't talk about the birth of the universe, just your own child.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What did you experience?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, can you define experience?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Can you define beauty?
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, you can experience it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So get them out of their box.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But you see, in a way, even now, as you and I talk, we end up using sentences, words.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So the mind is always there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But it is true, as was actually, this is a remark of Madame Blavarsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The mind is the slayer, is the slayer of the truth.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because according to all the stages, real reality is something
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[SPEAKER_03]: subtler than the mind.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And therefore necessary to be a little free of the mind.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But then even when we have this conversation, mind is required, language is required.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, I actually don't completely agree with Marambla Waske when she says, slay the slayer as if the mind needs to be slayed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that is the requirement.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It needs to find its appropriate place.
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[SPEAKER_03]: which is first of all, acknowledging that periodically one needs to quieten the mind.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Any serious spiritual teaching always requires people to at least take some time during their day.
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[SPEAKER_03]: when they can be quiet, mind-wise, completely quiet, and listen to something, hear something, see something, I get direct perception.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Not trying to therefore express it in some words, because even the Buddha could not actually describe what Nirvana is.
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[SPEAKER_03]: How could it be that I could describe this if I ever experienced anything even remotely close to Nirvana?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So, therefore, first of all, I want to just emphasize that, to be free of the domination of the mind is necessary, but not to be in any sense against the mind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely so.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For a start, when Ravatski said, let the disciples lay the slayer, this is just a poetic statement in the voice of the silence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Elsewhere, she also said,
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[SPEAKER_01]: The Aussie is not for those who cannot drive themselves to think that it's not the dumb skulls.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we use words like mind and think, but in what context, every word has an incredible subtlety of meaning.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when she used the word mind, I really think she was referring to the left
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[SPEAKER_01]: in the Gilchristans.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She is saying, let not the left brain dominate your being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Keep it as the humble servant.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I do so to think.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So these are just words, Ravi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But no scientist is going to say, listen to it other than
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[SPEAKER_01]: The several scientists in DTSO, because society and the anthroposopical in others, who hopefully can spread this wisdom amongst their colleagues.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think this is where coming back again, all the you mentioned the word religion,
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[SPEAKER_03]: in a way one could say the kind of spiritual understanding that comes, let us say from the Theosophical Society as an example, from the writings of Madambra Vaski.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And many other sentences like Krishna Murthy, or many wonderful things to bring.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and they are wholly occupied with just mental arguments with each other.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That is not going to assist anything.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But on the other hand, one of the things I really want to especially speak to you about, because the moment the word religion gets used, one immediately thinks of some organized religion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, there is often a reaction to it, or one gets to attach to it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But if you look at it,
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[SPEAKER_03]: particularly this is sadly much more strongly expressed in the Abrahamic religions as if this is the only true religion.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And then what has happened over the centuries, a very significant coalition almost of secular and religious powers.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you look at the whole history of the planet since the sixteenth century, the whole planet has been controlled by people coming from Christian background.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and then in England it is specifically remarkable.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The moment somebody becomes a queen or the king automatically they are head of the church.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi by religion I mean Ray Legare to bind back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Legare in Liga church.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can do two things with the Liga church.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can use it as a rope, as a Liga church, to ascend to a higher state to a divinity or
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can use a ligature to hang yourself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, it's hang the others.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm using, when I say religion really garlic, science needs to understand that there is nothing, there are no moral precepts in the laws of physics and chemistry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Equally, in the great religious texts, there are no statements on how to make bombs and chemical and atomic weapons.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They need to understand this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That science is amoral, sorry, amoral.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The immorality is the individual or the lack of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, I would pose this question to a scientist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you think that your science is the ultimate answer to a maiden's prayer or to the soul of the world's problem, how is your science going to bring the moral compass back to some sort of center?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Well, this is the reason, as you know, in that little article that was posted initially, coming from me, I had quoted John Poliani,
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you develop a laureate, hardly a negligible scientist, saying that in the twentieth century science, in conjunction with technology, has done more harm to humanity.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
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[SPEAKER_03]: After all, this is when the two large world wars took place during that stage.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And atomic bomb was developed so that we could kill everybody, etc.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So science has been very much used, connection with technology also, of course.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, Ravi, if people say our religion is cause wars, well, why not say if physical chemistry is cause wars?
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[SPEAKER_01]: After all, you can't make a bomb without chemistry, can you?
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can't, you why not blame Einstein for e equals MC squared, but if he hadn't, if he hadn't come up with it, we won't have to have a bomb.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Had an atomic bomb.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're finding, Ravi, is incredible shallow thinking, monk scientists, and a heck of a lot of dishonesty.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They talk of investigating truth, but they will castigate and cut out anything that doesn't suit their convenience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The fine example is Newton's of the Darius.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but you know, we can't really blame the only the scientists here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know the folks, cardinals, bishops in the churches?
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[SPEAKER_03]: What have they been doing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, they're behaving.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're behaving.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been despicable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So as I see it, Ravi, as I see it, there is no answer if it be an answer other than
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[SPEAKER_01]: somehow to enhance the sensitivity of the scientists, which means, enhancing the beauty of the environment, including the mental environment, and the destruction of forests and rivers and the planet, is in no way helping that sensitivity to grow.
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[SPEAKER_03]: which is one of the reasons, I think I had mentioned at one stage many years ago, this was actually in the early, early, nineteen, seventies.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I had even somebody, I had persuaded somebody to offer enough money so that any of the science students who wanted to spend a few months, they had to say it's a ten-month experience.
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[SPEAKER_03]: One took it up, not even one took them up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: They were competing with each, this was especially at Princeton University where I happened to be.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because Nobel,
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[SPEAKER_03]: being with each other for Nobel Prizes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But that competitiveness becomes so deeply seated in human beings.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't then matter whether they are doing art or they are studying religion or they are doing science.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So in a way the problem is not really only with the scientists.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Education of the scientists begins when they are little kids.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the solution really needs to begin from there.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Not after they become time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But Ravi, the problem is, of course, it's not just scientists, but it's more acute with scientists because science by nature operates more through the intellectual mind.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the intellectual weaponry is very insidious using in this way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the propensity for arrogance
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[SPEAKER_01]: and misuse that the intellect is higher, that propensity amongst the scientists than the nostruble.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If we were even to assist a little bit, some shift in their attitude, what I'm saying is it's not a question of finding already well-known scientists and speaking to them to change their mind.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What is required is really, as the education begins, more or less at the age of four or five, depending on what's happening.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Really, that's where the problem needs to be.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Not the problem.
23:07.080 --> 23:11.583
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where whatever we understand by the solution is to begin there.
23:12.583 --> 23:31.354
[SPEAKER_01]: But sadly, I've attended the Krishna Moti, the Brockwood School many times, and I say to myself, well, wonderful, but in terms of creating a bow wave, the bow wave of more compassion and understanding
23:32.087 --> 23:33.368
[SPEAKER_01]: What is their success?
23:33.428 --> 23:37.992
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, success isn't quite the word on the, you know, but what, what's happening?
23:38.512 --> 23:40.014
[SPEAKER_01]: What are they doing after that?
23:40.914 --> 23:50.563
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the Kushner Mutti school, and I think the Steiner and Montessori, all are promulgating exactly what you're saying, Ravi.
23:51.483 --> 23:53.345
[SPEAKER_01]: But what impact is it having?
23:54.715 --> 23:56.196
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I actually agree with you.
23:56.296 --> 24:05.904
[SPEAKER_03]: This is why I said even initially that the problem is not going to be in any sense easily solved at any given time in human history.
24:06.945 --> 24:13.911
[SPEAKER_03]: Extremely few people have brought a combination of intelligence and compassion.
24:14.331 --> 24:15.632
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
24:15.792 --> 24:17.233
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we mean by wisdom?
24:18.074 --> 24:23.118
[SPEAKER_03]: We might express it in slightly differently, but at any given time in history,
24:24.777 --> 24:25.637
[SPEAKER_03]: we can look at it.
24:26.998 --> 24:34.941
[SPEAKER_01]: Very few pages have tried to shine a little candle in a very large darkness.
24:35.682 --> 24:36.062
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
24:36.462 --> 24:39.643
[SPEAKER_03]: And then extremely few people take it.
24:40.044 --> 24:46.346
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, and then a competition, I'm sometimes completely surprised, even in the presence of Christ himself.
24:47.227 --> 24:52.849
[SPEAKER_03]: His chosen disciples are arguing with each other, who is going to sit on his right side.
24:54.010 --> 24:54.210
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:55.590 --> 24:57.671
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't a very presence of grace.
24:57.771 --> 25:02.172
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Buddha had an easier time with his archives.
25:02.772 --> 25:08.273
[SPEAKER_02]: If the story would be, I don't know whether he had an easier time.
25:09.873 --> 25:20.156
[SPEAKER_01]: But in any case, what I'm saying is that, first of all, come back to be excessively in the esophagus society for over half a century.
25:20.256 --> 25:24.477
[SPEAKER_01]: And my goodness, they've had the stupid arguments
25:25.152 --> 25:28.333
[SPEAKER_01]: But I distinguish between practice and practitioner.
25:31.074 --> 25:35.996
[SPEAKER_01]: The most wonderful saying the Mahaturan was, you know, why are we doing this?
25:36.817 --> 25:48.901
[SPEAKER_01]: Between religious superstition and even more brutal scientific materialism, the white dove of truth knows not where to place her weary, unwelcome foot.
25:51.494 --> 26:11.368
[SPEAKER_01]: But the idea is not just to propagate occult science far from it, the first object was brotherhood because without that brotherhood, whatever you divulge about nature's hidden forces will be taken even more dangerously than what's happening to nature's physical forces.
26:11.388 --> 26:20.374
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to find that balancing point between brutal materialism and religious superstition
26:21.157 --> 26:21.397
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
26:21.958 --> 26:28.923
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think we would probably, I suspect anybody who listens to this would agree that this is what we should be finding.
26:29.283 --> 26:35.967
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I'm saying to you to imagine that this is going to be easily done at any given time.
26:36.448 --> 26:37.489
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just fantasy.
26:38.629 --> 26:46.475
[SPEAKER_03]: Because even the greatest stages, for example, I often think of the Buddha and the Christ, the greatest, the history of humanity has known.
26:47.653 --> 27:08.593
[SPEAKER_03]: Even in their presence, their own disciples are arguing with each other, competing with each other, and disagreeing, or this or that, rather than staying with the very teaching that they are just hearing, and occasionally probably practicing, and right away, soon after when the religion gets organized,
27:09.520 --> 27:11.481
[SPEAKER_03]: it ends up getting more trouble.
27:12.301 --> 27:20.164
[SPEAKER_03]: Even the science and religion conflict, if you look at the way it started, it was really coming from the religion side, the conflict side of it.
27:21.064 --> 27:24.005
[SPEAKER_03]: Not from the scientific side, historically.
27:24.686 --> 27:33.509
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I'm saying here to imagine that we can rely on religion in the usual sense of the word is not very helpful.
27:34.620 --> 27:45.944
[SPEAKER_03]: So then one says, what will be the kind of spiritual practices that one might try to rely on and to try to also assist other people to practice?
27:47.285 --> 27:55.788
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where, in my judgment, anything to do with occasional calling oneself to quiet and once might.
27:57.270 --> 28:03.574
[SPEAKER_03]: that kind of, however one comes to that practice, seems to me, that is the kind of direction we need to take.
28:03.854 --> 28:21.006
[SPEAKER_03]: And we need to see how we can persuade teachers in the very early schools, primary schools, to assist that children also during or the students in the schools to take at least a few minutes of just quiet.
28:23.942 --> 28:42.908
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think this will be at least in my judgment one of the necessary requirement to assist a person to begin to see that when his mind is quiet, something is touched to his heart, which in my judgment, heart is really the first avenue to truth more than the mind.
28:44.033 --> 28:50.338
[SPEAKER_03]: But how do we go about suggesting this to people who are teachers or organizing schools?
28:50.918 --> 28:53.740
[SPEAKER_03]: Because everything is based on competition.
28:55.562 --> 29:02.387
[SPEAKER_03]: So that I can get a better scholarship, I can go to a better college and possibly get an Nobel Prize, etc.
29:02.727 --> 29:10.673
[SPEAKER_03]: So everything is driven by that kind of competitive spirit rather than how can I quiet in my mind?
29:12.228 --> 29:17.732
[SPEAKER_03]: and be aware of something, subtler than whatever my mind can connect with.
29:21.134 --> 29:26.378
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel that that is really the direction we need to be searching for.
29:30.341 --> 29:34.744
[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi, I couldn't agree more that religion isn't going to cut much ice.
29:34.824 --> 29:36.025
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, far from it.
29:36.614 --> 29:54.682
[SPEAKER_01]: That was mentioning religion from the point of view of trying to show that whatever moral presets we have now is as David Lorimer has stated, is the moral and ethical capital we get from religion.
29:55.303 --> 29:57.524
[SPEAKER_01]: Science does not provide that morality.
29:58.284 --> 30:04.307
[SPEAKER_01]: But starting at the kindergarten level is absolutely indispensable
30:05.119 --> 30:07.419
[SPEAKER_01]: But now, how are you going to apply it in the mind?
30:08.640 --> 30:17.041
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the ways to my understanding is through music, through beautiful music.
30:18.021 --> 30:27.843
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the arts were taken more seriously now, that would provide a tremendous healing influence.
30:28.683 --> 30:30.604
[SPEAKER_01]: Ricardo Mouti in his
30:32.650 --> 30:43.576
[SPEAKER_01]: Little talk at the New Year's concert two years ago, said my message to all the presidents and prime ministers is do not neglect the arts.
30:44.157 --> 30:46.478
[SPEAKER_01]: The arts is not the icing on the cake.
30:47.138 --> 30:52.382
[SPEAKER_01]: It is the arts that brings a man close to his soul.
30:52.402 --> 30:57.425
[SPEAKER_03]: But this is really where I think you would agree with me.
30:58.440 --> 31:04.742
[SPEAKER_03]: the very purpose or the main undertaking that the so-called Galileo Commission is taking over.
31:05.703 --> 31:08.484
[SPEAKER_03]: That matter is not the primary reality.
31:08.664 --> 31:17.907
[SPEAKER_03]: Because if you look at the development of science from the sixteenth century onwards, mass length and time, that so matter is the primary reality.
31:17.967 --> 31:19.488
[SPEAKER_03]: Consciousness is nothing to do with it.
31:20.148 --> 31:25.810
[SPEAKER_03]: And then later on, of course, charge was added in the nineteenth century and later spin was added in the twentieth century.
31:27.532 --> 31:33.875
[SPEAKER_03]: The whole suggestion that really reality is completely material reductionist.
31:34.055 --> 31:45.320
[SPEAKER_03]: So the undertaking of the Galileo Commission, at least in my judgment, why I have myself been trying to support it, is coming from the other side that consciousness is more primary.
31:45.621 --> 31:56.966
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel at what has happened that all the sciences that present, not only biology or geology or chemistry, but even psychology from a scientific perspective has become a branch of physics,
31:58.485 --> 31:59.086
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it has.
31:59.906 --> 32:25.089
[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas I think what is required in my judgment, gradually to discover that even physics is actually a branch of psychology coming from our own consciousness, or whether with the college psychology or spirituality, labels spirituality would put some people off that's part of the difficulty because of the struggle between religion and science for centuries.
32:26.288 --> 32:32.250
[SPEAKER_03]: So one may still just call it psychology in a way, arising from the inner dimension.
32:32.951 --> 32:37.653
[SPEAKER_03]: What the whole of physics basically is really studying matter in motion and one way or the other.
32:38.313 --> 32:54.680
[SPEAKER_03]: So everything becomes a branch, if psychology becomes a branch of physics, which it largely is from a scientific point of view, then it is also just studying how the various particles in the brain may be under what kind of motion, what forces them, what stops them, etc.
32:56.282 --> 32:59.445
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the primary sea of matter to my mind is absurd.
33:00.125 --> 33:11.535
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I mentioned coming from experience and what better example than the Great Florence Nightingale, who was the Great Statistition.
33:12.416 --> 33:23.306
[SPEAKER_01]: And in her notes for nursing, I believe she said that the universe is operated or governed by the laws of science.
33:24.240 --> 33:27.041
[SPEAKER_01]: underpinned by a higher intelligence.
33:29.141 --> 33:31.862
[SPEAKER_01]: Underpinned by a higher intelligence.
33:32.402 --> 33:50.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this matter in motion, a very, very simple example, you know, if my local playground, if a child comes down of slide and bashes his face and not to tooth out, then the problem is a child coming down a slide, it's matter in motion.
33:51.452 --> 33:56.097
[SPEAKER_01]: And the problem has to be addressed on the potential energy to kinetic energy.
33:56.818 --> 33:58.600
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's only an interpretation.
33:58.620 --> 34:08.550
[SPEAKER_01]: But then if the child goes to a dentist to have its tooth sorted out, the dentist will regard the tooth as an object.
34:08.590 --> 34:10.392
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean the child is an object.
34:10.653 --> 34:12.695
[SPEAKER_01]: It is an interpretation.
34:13.657 --> 34:26.222
[SPEAKER_01]: But then if the child goes to a psychiatrist, if the psychiatrist regards the child as a matter of emotion and says, what's your weight and all that, it's a pleasure.
34:26.782 --> 34:39.766
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking of category errors that the psychiatrist will hopefully think of you who said that depression is a home sickness of the soul.
34:42.598 --> 34:44.979
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is category errors.
34:45.119 --> 34:57.624
[SPEAKER_01]: What is relevant in the reductionist materialistic field is nonsensical when we adjust higher issues of life.
34:59.365 --> 35:06.408
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem you have perfectly identified is the lower category is assumed to apply all across the board.
35:07.242 --> 35:19.426
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, because of this success, so-called success or science largely because by success, I mean, it can get you more money, more power, more energy in their sense.
35:19.606 --> 35:29.609
[SPEAKER_03]: So success or science, this is what, of course, has allowed certain nations to control other nations because they can develop bigger bombs or bigger weapons.
35:31.026 --> 35:33.629
[SPEAKER_03]: He's not there controlling them out of more wisdom.
35:36.493 --> 35:47.307
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you look at historically in a way science coupled with technology really has been very much the source of power.
35:49.442 --> 36:00.306
[SPEAKER_03]: My own impression is although I don't know the exact figures, but a lot of the people who graduate in physics work either for the industry or for military.
36:00.906 --> 36:06.468
[SPEAKER_03]: So partly because this is where their talents get used more and more.
36:07.068 --> 36:13.570
[SPEAKER_03]: And so their talents allow a military power to control over other nations, other people, etc.
36:13.791 --> 36:17.692
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the problem is very large.
36:19.253 --> 36:24.314
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that scientists are going to just change their mind and say, okay, we can begin from consciousness.
36:24.694 --> 36:27.815
[SPEAKER_03]: Galileo Commission is so easily succeed.
36:29.716 --> 36:34.737
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think on the other hand, I don't think you and I should become pessimistic about it.
36:35.417 --> 36:38.878
[SPEAKER_03]: Or excessively optimistic, we just need to do our part.
36:39.778 --> 36:43.959
[SPEAKER_01]: And then certainly not, excessively optimistic, I'll show you.
36:44.599 --> 36:47.880
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you're saying and what needs somehow to
36:48.718 --> 36:51.420
[SPEAKER_01]: get across the scientists.
36:51.960 --> 36:58.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, science has created blessings on the physical level.
36:58.125 --> 37:02.588
[SPEAKER_01]: It's done wonderful things to enhance the quality of our physical life.
37:03.268 --> 37:10.954
[SPEAKER_01]: But science has also created as many illusions as it solved problems.
37:11.054 --> 37:17.939
[SPEAKER_01]: And that illusion is that science alone is also, to all our problems.
37:18.627 --> 37:20.449
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it has created, I agree with you.
37:20.469 --> 37:23.251
[SPEAKER_03]: It has created a lot of illusions and also many weapons.
37:24.732 --> 37:27.875
[SPEAKER_03]: You get rid of the other people who disagree with you.
37:29.156 --> 37:37.643
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's also rather the distinction which they need to understand between scientific knowledge and scientific training.
37:38.684 --> 37:46.110
[SPEAKER_01]: Knowledge can be just a hoarding of intellectual data, you know, appiling up intellectual stuff.
37:47.482 --> 37:58.804
[SPEAKER_01]: Scientific training, a scientist or a person may have very little scientific knowledge, but he could be trained in science, meaning he could question his assumption.
37:59.284 --> 38:01.424
[SPEAKER_01]: He would be aware of his limitations.
38:01.964 --> 38:02.205
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
38:02.685 --> 38:08.486
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would not be high-band by what the mainstream would expect of him.
38:09.466 --> 38:16.667
[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, my impression is that the greatest scientist, like Newton and Einstein, would completely agree with everything we are saying.
38:18.021 --> 38:26.890
[SPEAKER_03]: Travel mostly arises from people who admire science, but are not practicing scientists themselves.
38:27.871 --> 38:35.478
[SPEAKER_03]: Because practicing scientists, whatever level they are, can more easily see the limitations of what they are doing.
38:36.299 --> 38:40.944
[SPEAKER_03]: And you can see that not everything is therefore clearly understood by what they are doing.
38:42.079 --> 38:58.484
[SPEAKER_03]: But what has happened because of the influence that science has had on the society is mostly the people who are running the governments but they are not actually practicing scientists who regard science and technology to be the biggest thing and they want to support it.
38:58.544 --> 39:09.827
[SPEAKER_03]: You can get every country has departments of science and technology giving more money to it so that they can have bigger and better weapons or more technology or more everything else to do externally.
39:10.647 --> 39:17.610
[SPEAKER_03]: But it is not usually arising from practicing scientists, certainly not the great practicing scientists.
39:18.451 --> 39:21.112
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a very, very good point, Ravi.
39:21.172 --> 39:24.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is not coming from the practicing scientists.
39:25.514 --> 39:27.755
[SPEAKER_01]: It's coming from people who are using them.
39:28.355 --> 39:28.935
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
39:29.275 --> 39:31.036
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, that's a very good point.
39:31.236 --> 39:31.557
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
39:31.957 --> 39:32.777
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
39:32.817 --> 39:33.818
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
39:33.878 --> 39:35.218
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Ravi.
39:35.979 --> 39:39.160
[SPEAKER_01]: And all the very best and let's keep
39:40.362 --> 40:03.483
[SPEAKER_01]: sensibly optimistic yes sensibly optimistic that that draw with a great piece of music in ten years time would be open and someone will discover it certainly we should not be pessimistic in any sense because that would not allow us to do anything if we become completely pessimistic thank you very much thank you very much Ravi
00:03.482 --> 00:04.526
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you.
00:16.385 --> 00:29.543
[SPEAKER_00]: My name is David Lorimer and I'm speaking as chair of the Galileo Commission to introduce one of our pollcasts with Ravir Vindra and Eddie Belimoria on Wise Scientists.
00:30.224 --> 00:32.968
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a sub-project of the Galileo Commission.
00:33.849 --> 00:51.790
[SPEAKER_00]: and one led by Ravi who himself is a physicist and mystic and Eddie is an engineer and mystic and so they both bridge this gap between science and mysticism, science and spirituality and what they're talking about
00:52.611 --> 01:07.660
[SPEAKER_00]: in this podcast is how scientists can arrive at wisdom and how the root force of lack of wisdom in terms of love of money can be overcome.
01:08.780 --> 01:19.768
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that Ravi and Eddie are optimistic or pessimistic about the world, but rather realistic as they argue themselves.
01:20.248 --> 01:33.877
[SPEAKER_00]: But they do think that it's possible to create a nucleus of scientists concerned with wisdom and that the important factor here is not theory or belief, but rather experience.
01:34.978 --> 01:41.884
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm sure you'll find this extraordinarily illuminating as a conversation between these two wise scientists.
01:42.424 --> 01:42.785
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy!
01:52.916 --> 02:04.781
[SPEAKER_03]: So let me invite you ready to speak a little bit about how we approach the whole question of wisdom because not everybody even makes the same meaning out of the word wisdom.
02:05.981 --> 02:12.564
[SPEAKER_03]: Then how can we assist scientists or really anybody including ourselves?
02:12.764 --> 02:13.865
[SPEAKER_03]: How are we wise?
02:13.885 --> 02:15.625
[SPEAKER_03]: How do we become wise?
02:16.386 --> 02:21.648
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Ravi, thank you very much for inviting me to answer
02:22.594 --> 02:27.577
[SPEAKER_01]: What I would regard as just about the most profound question anyone could ever ask.
02:28.358 --> 02:34.141
[SPEAKER_01]: Firstly, let me say, given what's going on in the world now, it's very easy to be pessimistic.
02:35.122 --> 02:46.889
[SPEAKER_01]: We only heard a week ago about a new hypersonic missile, experimental hypersonic missile that's being fired and tested.
02:47.609 --> 02:48.830
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the upper hand,
02:49.597 --> 03:04.268
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear about Japanese scientists who invented, so to speak, a new form of plastic that can be eaten devoured by microbes, so it would create such pollution.
03:05.148 --> 03:12.954
[SPEAKER_01]: So we see a huge dichotomy between the dark side of science and technology and the brighter side.
03:13.655 --> 03:16.777
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very easy to be pessimistic, but let's just
03:17.518 --> 03:19.979
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember, just this one story.
03:21.480 --> 03:25.641
[SPEAKER_01]: Shubat, two years before he died, he had died at the age of thirty-one.
03:25.661 --> 03:28.502
[SPEAKER_01]: He completed his ninth symphony.
03:29.282 --> 03:34.404
[SPEAKER_01]: His ninth symphony known as the Great Symphony, is played all over the world.
03:34.484 --> 03:36.845
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, it's one of the most beloved works.
03:37.746 --> 03:41.667
[SPEAKER_01]: It was discovered ten years after Shubat's death.
03:42.447 --> 03:44.328
[SPEAKER_01]: It was discovered by Robert Schumann,
03:45.628 --> 03:55.874
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was given to Schumann by Schubert's brother, Ferdinand, and Schumann then took it to Leipzig, and the first performance was conducted by Mendelssohn.
03:56.754 --> 04:11.602
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I'm saying, Ravi, is we can sow seeds of whatever wisdom and compassion and understanding we have, and they will sprout in the fullness of time.
04:13.859 --> 04:19.281
[SPEAKER_01]: So I keep telling myself not to be pessimistic and reminding myself of this story.
04:20.641 --> 04:32.584
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be very debilitating otherwise to be faced with the weight of inequity that we see and find ourselves in the world at the moment.
04:33.685 --> 04:34.725
[SPEAKER_01]: Now what can we do?
04:34.745 --> 04:37.346
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to be absolutely practical.
04:38.546 --> 04:41.907
[SPEAKER_01]: I really think Ravi, there is more than enough
04:43.042 --> 04:53.465
[SPEAKER_01]: philosophy and wise words of wisdom from the great scientists, the great philosophers were almost since time immemorial.
04:54.705 --> 04:58.206
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not cutting much ice, it is obviously making a difference.
04:59.306 --> 05:05.788
[SPEAKER_01]: The problem we had is we are not addressing the root cause of the problem, which is money.
05:07.655 --> 05:13.339
[SPEAKER_01]: money, greed, control, and power, they're all part of one low quality of consciousness.
05:14.279 --> 05:24.826
[SPEAKER_01]: So unless we can somehow convince scientists that there is, how can I put its spiritual currency in wisdom?
05:25.766 --> 05:27.547
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to take us seriously.
05:28.268 --> 05:30.169
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the problem we are faced with.
05:31.210 --> 05:36.873
[SPEAKER_01]: If there's no money in it, oh well, that's all lovely philosophy, but we'll carry on on the same path.
05:38.745 --> 05:50.449
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have somehow to convince them that for a full life science provides the efficiency on the physical level.
05:51.909 --> 05:56.610
[SPEAKER_01]: Religion provides the morality and philosophy provides the ethic.
05:56.690 --> 05:58.611
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, dare you talk about religion?
05:59.531 --> 06:04.833
[SPEAKER_01]: So we really have to try and turn it around in their language and show them
06:05.702 --> 06:09.645
[SPEAKER_01]: that what we are proposing is for their own benefit.
06:11.326 --> 06:13.087
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a bit of a long-winded answer.
06:14.528 --> 06:17.210
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but let me actually raise here first of all.
06:18.010 --> 06:24.575
[SPEAKER_03]: You said you're wishing to be not pessimistic, but one doesn't therefore need to be optimistic.
06:24.675 --> 06:28.878
[SPEAKER_03]: As we look at the history of the world at any given time,
06:30.413 --> 06:36.796
[SPEAKER_03]: There have been occasional maybe a few years when there was some more tranquility on the planet.
06:37.496 --> 06:46.339
[SPEAKER_03]: But I sometimes remind myself that even with the teachings of the Christ in his presence, how many people followed him?
06:48.060 --> 06:55.763
[SPEAKER_03]: Even though thousands heard him, so did the world situation change because of Christ or because of the Buddha or because of any of the stages?
06:56.598 --> 07:02.783
[SPEAKER_03]: So we don't need to therefore be either optimistic or pessimistic, but to give this realistic.
07:03.823 --> 07:06.145
[SPEAKER_03]: That is just the way the world is.
07:07.886 --> 07:11.189
[SPEAKER_03]: And is almost always going to continue to be like that.
07:11.309 --> 07:18.554
[SPEAKER_03]: But for a few people, to imagine that we can have the whole world become more and more concerned with wisdom.
07:19.294 --> 07:21.576
[SPEAKER_01]: That's living in Klaus Kukuland.
07:22.116 --> 07:22.897
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, fantastic.
07:23.797 --> 07:24.718
[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi, let me then
07:26.476 --> 07:49.286
[SPEAKER_01]: point you to the first object of the geosophagus society, really, which is really to create, whether it's been successful in an artist another point, but the ideas to create a nucleus of the brotherhood and man, that thisophagus society had never said they're going to make all men brotherly.
07:52.467 --> 07:54.008
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we can create
07:55.108 --> 07:57.870
[SPEAKER_01]: And here I'm really optimistic.
07:59.431 --> 08:11.800
[SPEAKER_01]: If we can create a powerful nucleus, that will expand because it's in the nature of a nucleus to be centrifugal in its activity, isn't it?
08:12.941 --> 08:18.605
[SPEAKER_01]: So the primary ingredient for that nucleus is absolute sincerity of purpose.
08:19.405 --> 08:22.928
[SPEAKER_01]: We may have different ideas, but if we are really sincere,
08:24.344 --> 08:35.147
[SPEAKER_01]: I do believe that whatever we say, even though it may be in that jaw that languished for ten years like the symphony, it will be discovered and taken up.
08:36.387 --> 08:39.368
[SPEAKER_01]: So all we can do is create that new place.
08:40.429 --> 08:52.132
[SPEAKER_01]: And one key thing is somehow, when a legendary famous scientist has a real conversion or a change of heart,
08:53.243 --> 09:14.763
[SPEAKER_01]: inevitably invariably as a result of some catastrophe, a near-death experience, light-pressed off-cog, that will provide that nucleus, which hopefully, when it reaches critical mass, would promulgate a few seeds of wisdom and mixing metaphors here, of course.
09:17.106 --> 09:25.793
[SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that you had mentioned, even in the beginning today, that somehow we need to invite something from religious side.
09:26.573 --> 09:36.020
[SPEAKER_03]: But my own impression is historically, religions have done more harm to spiritual search than any other organization.
09:38.482 --> 09:41.004
[SPEAKER_01]: Indigenous Muslims.
09:41.624 --> 09:46.328
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my passions, Radhees, to show the unity
09:47.927 --> 09:51.088
[SPEAKER_01]: and the ethical basis of all religions.
09:51.468 --> 09:59.892
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I know this is a tall order and this is why I spent so long on things chapter seven, volume two, my unfurled unconsciousness.
10:00.752 --> 10:05.434
[SPEAKER_01]: The stupid thing is people regard religion as a belief system.
10:06.174 --> 10:17.138
[SPEAKER_01]: I have heard personally talks at the Royal Institution and the Royal Society where the scientist says, religion is based on belief
10:17.710 --> 10:19.731
[SPEAKER_01]: But science is based on fact.
10:20.471 --> 10:21.912
[SPEAKER_01]: What a load of rubbish.
10:22.892 --> 10:24.713
[SPEAKER_01]: Science has its.
10:25.434 --> 10:27.895
[SPEAKER_01]: Scientism is almost a religious cult.
10:28.735 --> 10:29.575
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
10:29.636 --> 10:29.856
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
10:30.056 --> 10:36.859
[SPEAKER_01]: If we can possibly drag a scientist out of his Plato's cave and show him the wider picture.
10:37.799 --> 10:38.179
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:38.480 --> 10:45.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not convince, we're not into convincing, but try and show him that as Colleen would said,
10:46.181 --> 10:54.507
[SPEAKER_01]: that the answer to any question presupposes the question which has its own presuppositions.
10:55.828 --> 11:15.402
[SPEAKER_01]: So if we try and answer questions about the higher reality through intellect, the problem is that any definition is always going to be partial and it's always going to be one-sided because
11:16.562 --> 11:21.944
[SPEAKER_01]: It is tied down to the intellect, which only deals with finite things.
11:22.944 --> 11:28.626
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, if a scientist can understand this elementary philosophy, then we'll go somewhere else.
11:29.947 --> 11:39.850
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, but you see, we have to throw them, Ravi, that the intellect is wonderful, but the intellect can only deal with finite things.
11:41.328 --> 11:52.111
[SPEAKER_01]: God consciousness, whatever you like to call it, which is not the same thing, but the infinite cannot be put into a box and intellectually analyze.
11:53.451 --> 12:01.253
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to somehow draw on experience, not on definitions and theory.
12:02.153 --> 12:10.835
[SPEAKER_01]: So try and bring out the experience of the scientists to say to him, all right, you might think the world is only matter and all that.
12:12.128 --> 12:14.490
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you witness the birth of your child?
12:15.191 --> 12:16.251
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you feel then?
12:17.773 --> 12:21.836
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't talk about the birth of the universe, just your own child.
12:22.777 --> 12:24.258
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you experience?
12:25.199 --> 12:27.561
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, can you define experience?
12:28.101 --> 12:29.783
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you define beauty?
12:30.243 --> 12:31.784
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you can experience it.
12:32.785 --> 12:34.487
[SPEAKER_01]: So get them out of their box.
12:36.297 --> 12:43.059
[SPEAKER_03]: But you see, in a way, even now, as you and I talk, we end up using sentences, words.
12:43.599 --> 12:45.679
[SPEAKER_03]: So the mind is always there.
12:46.180 --> 12:52.421
[SPEAKER_03]: But it is true, as was actually, this is a remark of Madame Blavarsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society.
12:52.441 --> 12:55.602
[SPEAKER_03]: The mind is the slayer, is the slayer of the truth.
12:56.482 --> 13:02.384
[SPEAKER_03]: Because according to all the stages, real reality is something
13:03.604 --> 13:04.905
[SPEAKER_03]: subtler than the mind.
13:05.746 --> 13:10.590
[SPEAKER_03]: And therefore necessary to be a little free of the mind.
13:10.950 --> 13:17.175
[SPEAKER_03]: But then even when we have this conversation, mind is required, language is required.
13:17.275 --> 13:26.962
[SPEAKER_03]: So first of all, I actually don't completely agree with Marambla Waske when she says, slay the slayer as if the mind needs to be slayed.
13:27.202 --> 13:28.723
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that is the requirement.
13:29.564 --> 13:32.026
[SPEAKER_03]: It needs to find its appropriate place.
13:33.934 --> 13:39.584
[SPEAKER_03]: which is first of all, acknowledging that periodically one needs to quieten the mind.
13:39.965 --> 13:45.775
[SPEAKER_03]: Any serious spiritual teaching always requires people to at least take some time during their day.
13:46.702 --> 13:56.269
[SPEAKER_03]: when they can be quiet, mind-wise, completely quiet, and listen to something, hear something, see something, I get direct perception.
13:57.249 --> 14:04.214
[SPEAKER_03]: Not trying to therefore express it in some words, because even the Buddha could not actually describe what Nirvana is.
14:06.076 --> 14:11.519
[SPEAKER_03]: How could it be that I could describe this if I ever experienced anything even remotely close to Nirvana?
14:13.064 --> 14:25.850
[SPEAKER_03]: So, therefore, first of all, I want to just emphasize that, to be free of the domination of the mind is necessary, but not to be in any sense against the mind.
14:27.551 --> 14:28.632
[SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely so.
14:28.652 --> 14:38.637
[SPEAKER_01]: For a start, when Ravatski said, let the disciples lay the slayer, this is just a poetic statement in the voice of the silence.
14:38.797 --> 14:41.258
[SPEAKER_01]: Elsewhere, she also said,
14:41.922 --> 14:49.989
[SPEAKER_01]: The Aussie is not for those who cannot drive themselves to think that it's not the dumb skulls.
14:50.550 --> 15:00.458
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we use words like mind and think, but in what context, every word has an incredible subtlety of meaning.
15:00.478 --> 15:08.806
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when she used the word mind, I really think she was referring to the left
15:09.702 --> 15:12.143
[SPEAKER_01]: in the Gilchristans.
15:13.884 --> 15:19.826
[SPEAKER_01]: She is saying, let not the left brain dominate your being.
15:20.566 --> 15:22.607
[SPEAKER_01]: Keep it as the humble servant.
15:23.227 --> 15:23.487
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
15:24.067 --> 15:25.408
[SPEAKER_01]: I do so to think.
15:26.248 --> 15:29.009
[SPEAKER_01]: So these are just words, Ravi.
15:30.190 --> 15:33.931
[SPEAKER_01]: But no scientist is going to say, listen to it other than
15:34.648 --> 15:47.598
[SPEAKER_01]: The several scientists in DTSO, because society and the anthroposopical in others, who hopefully can spread this wisdom amongst their colleagues.
15:48.778 --> 15:48.979
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
15:49.519 --> 15:54.263
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think this is where coming back again, all the you mentioned the word religion,
15:55.130 --> 16:05.540
[SPEAKER_03]: in a way one could say the kind of spiritual understanding that comes, let us say from the Theosophical Society as an example, from the writings of Madambra Vaski.
16:06.000 --> 16:12.506
[SPEAKER_03]: And many other sentences like Krishna Murthy, or many wonderful things to bring.
16:13.248 --> 16:17.710
[SPEAKER_03]: and they are wholly occupied with just mental arguments with each other.
16:17.730 --> 16:19.971
[SPEAKER_03]: That is not going to assist anything.
16:20.992 --> 16:31.456
[SPEAKER_03]: But on the other hand, one of the things I really want to especially speak to you about, because the moment the word religion gets used, one immediately thinks of some organized religion.
16:31.516 --> 16:32.557
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
16:33.057 --> 16:37.999
[SPEAKER_03]: And therefore, there is often a reaction to it, or one gets to attach to it.
16:38.319 --> 16:39.260
[SPEAKER_03]: But if you look at it,
16:40.401 --> 16:47.907
[SPEAKER_03]: particularly this is sadly much more strongly expressed in the Abrahamic religions as if this is the only true religion.
16:48.888 --> 16:58.655
[SPEAKER_03]: And then what has happened over the centuries, a very significant coalition almost of secular and religious powers.
16:59.016 --> 17:07.322
[SPEAKER_03]: If you look at the whole history of the planet since the sixteenth century, the whole planet has been controlled by people coming from Christian background.
17:09.152 --> 17:12.454
[SPEAKER_03]: and then in England it is specifically remarkable.
17:12.534 --> 17:17.377
[SPEAKER_03]: The moment somebody becomes a queen or the king automatically they are head of the church.
17:18.518 --> 17:22.881
[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi by religion I mean Ray Legare to bind back.
17:23.521 --> 17:24.862
[SPEAKER_01]: Legare in Liga church.
17:25.502 --> 17:27.644
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can do two things with the Liga church.
17:28.324 --> 17:37.250
[SPEAKER_01]: You can use it as a rope, as a Liga church, to ascend to a higher state to a divinity or
17:39.003 --> 17:41.383
[SPEAKER_01]: You can use a ligature to hang yourself.
17:42.304 --> 17:45.064
[SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, it's hang the others.
17:47.105 --> 18:03.628
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm using, when I say religion really garlic, science needs to understand that there is nothing, there are no moral precepts in the laws of physics and chemistry.
18:05.195 --> 18:14.541
[SPEAKER_01]: Equally, in the great religious texts, there are no statements on how to make bombs and chemical and atomic weapons.
18:15.521 --> 18:17.022
[SPEAKER_01]: They need to understand this.
18:17.723 --> 18:20.744
[SPEAKER_01]: That science is amoral, sorry, amoral.
18:21.885 --> 18:25.087
[SPEAKER_01]: The immorality is the individual or the lack of it.
18:26.008 --> 18:30.010
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I would pose this question to a scientist.
18:30.725 --> 18:45.077
[SPEAKER_01]: If you think that your science is the ultimate answer to a maiden's prayer or to the soul of the world's problem, how is your science going to bring the moral compass back to some sort of center?
18:45.737 --> 18:52.943
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, this is the reason, as you know, in that little article that was posted initially, coming from me, I had quoted John Poliani,
18:53.632 --> 19:04.939
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you develop a laureate, hardly a negligible scientist, saying that in the twentieth century science, in conjunction with technology, has done more harm to humanity.
19:05.519 --> 19:05.859
[SPEAKER_02]: That's good.
19:07.340 --> 19:11.463
[SPEAKER_03]: After all, this is when the two large world wars took place during that stage.
19:12.523 --> 19:16.926
[SPEAKER_03]: And atomic bomb was developed so that we could kill everybody, etc.
19:17.066 --> 19:23.190
[SPEAKER_03]: So science has been very much used, connection with technology also, of course.
19:24.178 --> 19:31.780
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Ravi, if people say our religion is cause wars, well, why not say if physical chemistry is cause wars?
19:32.160 --> 19:36.161
[SPEAKER_01]: After all, you can't make a bomb without chemistry, can you?
19:36.962 --> 19:47.485
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't, you why not blame Einstein for e equals MC squared, but if he hadn't, if he hadn't come up with it, we won't have to have a bomb.
19:47.765 --> 19:48.725
[SPEAKER_01]: Had an atomic bomb.
19:49.282 --> 19:58.664
[SPEAKER_01]: So what we're finding, Ravi, is incredible shallow thinking, monk scientists, and a heck of a lot of dishonesty.
19:59.285 --> 20:08.047
[SPEAKER_01]: They talk of investigating truth, but they will castigate and cut out anything that doesn't suit their convenience.
20:08.907 --> 20:12.188
[SPEAKER_01]: The fine example is Newton's of the Darius.
20:13.043 --> 20:16.926
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, but you know, we can't really blame the only the scientists here.
20:17.166 --> 20:22.591
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you know the folks, cardinals, bishops in the churches?
20:22.751 --> 20:23.772
[SPEAKER_03]: What have they been doing?
20:24.693 --> 20:25.213
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
20:25.233 --> 20:26.174
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, they're behaving.
20:26.954 --> 20:27.895
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're behaving.
20:27.935 --> 20:28.916
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been despicable.
20:29.597 --> 20:34.180
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.
20:34.360 --> 20:42.207
[SPEAKER_01]: So as I see it, Ravi, as I see it, there is no answer if it be an answer other than
20:43.144 --> 21:05.992
[SPEAKER_01]: somehow to enhance the sensitivity of the scientists, which means, enhancing the beauty of the environment, including the mental environment, and the destruction of forests and rivers and the planet, is in no way helping that sensitivity to grow.
21:08.548 --> 21:15.790
[SPEAKER_03]: which is one of the reasons, I think I had mentioned at one stage many years ago, this was actually in the early, early, nineteen, seventies.
21:16.930 --> 21:28.614
[SPEAKER_03]: I had even somebody, I had persuaded somebody to offer enough money so that any of the science students who wanted to spend a few months, they had to say it's a ten-month experience.
21:28.954 --> 21:31.494
[SPEAKER_03]: One took it up, not even one took them up.
21:31.774 --> 21:35.856
[SPEAKER_03]: They were competing with each, this was especially at Princeton University where I happened to be.
21:35.876 --> 21:36.676
[SPEAKER_01]: Because Nobel,
21:37.956 --> 21:40.657
[SPEAKER_03]: being with each other for Nobel Prizes.
21:43.137 --> 21:49.339
[SPEAKER_03]: But that competitiveness becomes so deeply seated in human beings.
21:49.499 --> 21:54.580
[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't then matter whether they are doing art or they are studying religion or they are doing science.
21:55.560 --> 21:58.761
[SPEAKER_03]: So in a way the problem is not really only with the scientists.
22:00.101 --> 22:04.262
[SPEAKER_03]: Education of the scientists begins when they are little kids.
22:05.440 --> 22:08.242
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the solution really needs to begin from there.
22:08.322 --> 22:09.924
[SPEAKER_03]: Not after they become time.
22:10.644 --> 22:22.474
[SPEAKER_01]: But Ravi, the problem is, of course, it's not just scientists, but it's more acute with scientists because science by nature operates more through the intellectual mind.
22:23.475 --> 22:29.020
[SPEAKER_01]: And the intellectual weaponry is very insidious using in this way.
22:30.041 --> 22:32.563
[SPEAKER_01]: So the propensity for arrogance
22:33.836 --> 22:40.618
[SPEAKER_01]: and misuse that the intellect is higher, that propensity amongst the scientists than the nostruble.
22:41.018 --> 22:54.301
[SPEAKER_03]: If we were even to assist a little bit, some shift in their attitude, what I'm saying is it's not a question of finding already well-known scientists and speaking to them to change their mind.
22:54.941 --> 23:02.583
[SPEAKER_03]: What is required is really, as the education begins, more or less at the age of four or five, depending on what's happening.
23:02.783 --> 23:03.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
23:03.618 --> 23:06.179
[SPEAKER_03]: Really, that's where the problem needs to be.
23:06.340 --> 23:07.040
[SPEAKER_03]: Not the problem.
23:07.080 --> 23:11.583
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where whatever we understand by the solution is to begin there.
23:12.583 --> 23:31.354
[SPEAKER_01]: But sadly, I've attended the Krishna Moti, the Brockwood School many times, and I say to myself, well, wonderful, but in terms of creating a bow wave, the bow wave of more compassion and understanding
23:32.087 --> 23:33.368
[SPEAKER_01]: What is their success?
23:33.428 --> 23:37.992
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, success isn't quite the word on the, you know, but what, what's happening?
23:38.512 --> 23:40.014
[SPEAKER_01]: What are they doing after that?
23:40.914 --> 23:50.563
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the Kushner Mutti school, and I think the Steiner and Montessori, all are promulgating exactly what you're saying, Ravi.
23:51.483 --> 23:53.345
[SPEAKER_01]: But what impact is it having?
23:54.715 --> 23:56.196
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I actually agree with you.
23:56.296 --> 24:05.904
[SPEAKER_03]: This is why I said even initially that the problem is not going to be in any sense easily solved at any given time in human history.
24:06.945 --> 24:13.911
[SPEAKER_03]: Extremely few people have brought a combination of intelligence and compassion.
24:14.331 --> 24:15.632
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
24:15.792 --> 24:17.233
[SPEAKER_03]: What do we mean by wisdom?
24:18.074 --> 24:23.118
[SPEAKER_03]: We might express it in slightly differently, but at any given time in history,
24:24.777 --> 24:25.637
[SPEAKER_03]: we can look at it.
24:26.998 --> 24:34.941
[SPEAKER_01]: Very few pages have tried to shine a little candle in a very large darkness.
24:35.682 --> 24:36.062
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
24:36.462 --> 24:39.643
[SPEAKER_03]: And then extremely few people take it.
24:40.044 --> 24:46.346
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, and then a competition, I'm sometimes completely surprised, even in the presence of Christ himself.
24:47.227 --> 24:52.849
[SPEAKER_03]: His chosen disciples are arguing with each other, who is going to sit on his right side.
24:54.010 --> 24:54.210
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
24:55.590 --> 24:57.671
[SPEAKER_03]: This isn't a very presence of grace.
24:57.771 --> 25:02.172
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the Buddha had an easier time with his archives.
25:02.772 --> 25:08.273
[SPEAKER_02]: If the story would be, I don't know whether he had an easier time.
25:09.873 --> 25:20.156
[SPEAKER_01]: But in any case, what I'm saying is that, first of all, come back to be excessively in the esophagus society for over half a century.
25:20.256 --> 25:24.477
[SPEAKER_01]: And my goodness, they've had the stupid arguments
25:25.152 --> 25:28.333
[SPEAKER_01]: But I distinguish between practice and practitioner.
25:31.074 --> 25:35.996
[SPEAKER_01]: The most wonderful saying the Mahaturan was, you know, why are we doing this?
25:36.817 --> 25:48.901
[SPEAKER_01]: Between religious superstition and even more brutal scientific materialism, the white dove of truth knows not where to place her weary, unwelcome foot.
25:51.494 --> 26:11.368
[SPEAKER_01]: But the idea is not just to propagate occult science far from it, the first object was brotherhood because without that brotherhood, whatever you divulge about nature's hidden forces will be taken even more dangerously than what's happening to nature's physical forces.
26:11.388 --> 26:20.374
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to find that balancing point between brutal materialism and religious superstition
26:21.157 --> 26:21.397
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
26:21.958 --> 26:28.923
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think we would probably, I suspect anybody who listens to this would agree that this is what we should be finding.
26:29.283 --> 26:35.967
[SPEAKER_03]: But what I'm saying to you to imagine that this is going to be easily done at any given time.
26:36.448 --> 26:37.489
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just fantasy.
26:38.629 --> 26:46.475
[SPEAKER_03]: Because even the greatest stages, for example, I often think of the Buddha and the Christ, the greatest, the history of humanity has known.
26:47.653 --> 27:08.593
[SPEAKER_03]: Even in their presence, their own disciples are arguing with each other, competing with each other, and disagreeing, or this or that, rather than staying with the very teaching that they are just hearing, and occasionally probably practicing, and right away, soon after when the religion gets organized,
27:09.520 --> 27:11.481
[SPEAKER_03]: it ends up getting more trouble.
27:12.301 --> 27:20.164
[SPEAKER_03]: Even the science and religion conflict, if you look at the way it started, it was really coming from the religion side, the conflict side of it.
27:21.064 --> 27:24.005
[SPEAKER_03]: Not from the scientific side, historically.
27:24.686 --> 27:33.509
[SPEAKER_03]: So what I'm saying here to imagine that we can rely on religion in the usual sense of the word is not very helpful.
27:34.620 --> 27:45.944
[SPEAKER_03]: So then one says, what will be the kind of spiritual practices that one might try to rely on and to try to also assist other people to practice?
27:47.285 --> 27:55.788
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is where, in my judgment, anything to do with occasional calling oneself to quiet and once might.
27:57.270 --> 28:03.574
[SPEAKER_03]: that kind of, however one comes to that practice, seems to me, that is the kind of direction we need to take.
28:03.854 --> 28:21.006
[SPEAKER_03]: And we need to see how we can persuade teachers in the very early schools, primary schools, to assist that children also during or the students in the schools to take at least a few minutes of just quiet.
28:23.942 --> 28:42.908
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think this will be at least in my judgment one of the necessary requirement to assist a person to begin to see that when his mind is quiet, something is touched to his heart, which in my judgment, heart is really the first avenue to truth more than the mind.
28:44.033 --> 28:50.338
[SPEAKER_03]: But how do we go about suggesting this to people who are teachers or organizing schools?
28:50.918 --> 28:53.740
[SPEAKER_03]: Because everything is based on competition.
28:55.562 --> 29:02.387
[SPEAKER_03]: So that I can get a better scholarship, I can go to a better college and possibly get an Nobel Prize, etc.
29:02.727 --> 29:10.673
[SPEAKER_03]: So everything is driven by that kind of competitive spirit rather than how can I quiet in my mind?
29:12.228 --> 29:17.732
[SPEAKER_03]: and be aware of something, subtler than whatever my mind can connect with.
29:21.134 --> 29:26.378
[SPEAKER_03]: So I feel that that is really the direction we need to be searching for.
29:30.341 --> 29:34.744
[SPEAKER_01]: Ravi, I couldn't agree more that religion isn't going to cut much ice.
29:34.824 --> 29:36.025
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, far from it.
29:36.614 --> 29:54.682
[SPEAKER_01]: That was mentioning religion from the point of view of trying to show that whatever moral presets we have now is as David Lorimer has stated, is the moral and ethical capital we get from religion.
29:55.303 --> 29:57.524
[SPEAKER_01]: Science does not provide that morality.
29:58.284 --> 30:04.307
[SPEAKER_01]: But starting at the kindergarten level is absolutely indispensable
30:05.119 --> 30:07.419
[SPEAKER_01]: But now, how are you going to apply it in the mind?
30:08.640 --> 30:17.041
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the ways to my understanding is through music, through beautiful music.
30:18.021 --> 30:27.843
[SPEAKER_01]: And if the arts were taken more seriously now, that would provide a tremendous healing influence.
30:28.683 --> 30:30.604
[SPEAKER_01]: Ricardo Mouti in his
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[SPEAKER_01]: Little talk at the New Year's concert two years ago, said my message to all the presidents and prime ministers is do not neglect the arts.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The arts is not the icing on the cake.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is the arts that brings a man close to his soul.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But this is really where I think you would agree with me.
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[SPEAKER_03]: the very purpose or the main undertaking that the so-called Galileo Commission is taking over.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That matter is not the primary reality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because if you look at the development of science from the sixteenth century onwards, mass length and time, that so matter is the primary reality.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Consciousness is nothing to do with it.
31:20.148 --> 31:25.810
[SPEAKER_03]: And then later on, of course, charge was added in the nineteenth century and later spin was added in the twentieth century.
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[SPEAKER_03]: The whole suggestion that really reality is completely material reductionist.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So the undertaking of the Galileo Commission, at least in my judgment, why I have myself been trying to support it, is coming from the other side that consciousness is more primary.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I feel at what has happened that all the sciences that present, not only biology or geology or chemistry, but even psychology from a scientific perspective has become a branch of physics,
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, it has.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Whereas I think what is required in my judgment, gradually to discover that even physics is actually a branch of psychology coming from our own consciousness, or whether with the college psychology or spirituality, labels spirituality would put some people off that's part of the difficulty because of the struggle between religion and science for centuries.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So one may still just call it psychology in a way, arising from the inner dimension.
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[SPEAKER_03]: What the whole of physics basically is really studying matter in motion and one way or the other.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So everything becomes a branch, if psychology becomes a branch of physics, which it largely is from a scientific point of view, then it is also just studying how the various particles in the brain may be under what kind of motion, what forces them, what stops them, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the primary sea of matter to my mind is absurd.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I mentioned coming from experience and what better example than the Great Florence Nightingale, who was the Great Statistition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in her notes for nursing, I believe she said that the universe is operated or governed by the laws of science.
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[SPEAKER_01]: underpinned by a higher intelligence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Underpinned by a higher intelligence.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this matter in motion, a very, very simple example, you know, if my local playground, if a child comes down of slide and bashes his face and not to tooth out, then the problem is a child coming down a slide, it's matter in motion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the problem has to be addressed on the potential energy to kinetic energy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it's only an interpretation.
33:58.620 --> 34:08.550
[SPEAKER_01]: But then if the child goes to a dentist to have its tooth sorted out, the dentist will regard the tooth as an object.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean the child is an object.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is an interpretation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But then if the child goes to a psychiatrist, if the psychiatrist regards the child as a matter of emotion and says, what's your weight and all that, it's a pleasure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're talking of category errors that the psychiatrist will hopefully think of you who said that depression is a home sickness of the soul.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The problem is category errors.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is relevant in the reductionist materialistic field is nonsensical when we adjust higher issues of life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The problem you have perfectly identified is the lower category is assumed to apply all across the board.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And again, because of this success, so-called success or science largely because by success, I mean, it can get you more money, more power, more energy in their sense.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So success or science, this is what, of course, has allowed certain nations to control other nations because they can develop bigger bombs or bigger weapons.
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[SPEAKER_03]: He's not there controlling them out of more wisdom.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So if you look at historically in a way science coupled with technology really has been very much the source of power.
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[SPEAKER_03]: My own impression is although I don't know the exact figures, but a lot of the people who graduate in physics work either for the industry or for military.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So partly because this is where their talents get used more and more.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so their talents allow a military power to control over other nations, other people, etc.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I think the problem is very large.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's not that scientists are going to just change their mind and say, okay, we can begin from consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Galileo Commission is so easily succeed.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But I think on the other hand, I don't think you and I should become pessimistic about it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Or excessively optimistic, we just need to do our part.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then certainly not, excessively optimistic, I'll show you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But what you're saying and what needs somehow to
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[SPEAKER_01]: get across the scientists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, science has created blessings on the physical level.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's done wonderful things to enhance the quality of our physical life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But science has also created as many illusions as it solved problems.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that illusion is that science alone is also, to all our problems.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it has created, I agree with you.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It has created a lot of illusions and also many weapons.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You get rid of the other people who disagree with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there's also rather the distinction which they need to understand between scientific knowledge and scientific training.
37:38.684 --> 37:46.110
[SPEAKER_01]: Knowledge can be just a hoarding of intellectual data, you know, appiling up intellectual stuff.
37:47.482 --> 37:58.804
[SPEAKER_01]: Scientific training, a scientist or a person may have very little scientific knowledge, but he could be trained in science, meaning he could question his assumption.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He would be aware of his limitations.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he would not be high-band by what the mainstream would expect of him.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Actually, my impression is that the greatest scientist, like Newton and Einstein, would completely agree with everything we are saying.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Travel mostly arises from people who admire science, but are not practicing scientists themselves.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because practicing scientists, whatever level they are, can more easily see the limitations of what they are doing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And you can see that not everything is therefore clearly understood by what they are doing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But what has happened because of the influence that science has had on the society is mostly the people who are running the governments but they are not actually practicing scientists who regard science and technology to be the biggest thing and they want to support it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You can get every country has departments of science and technology giving more money to it so that they can have bigger and better weapons or more technology or more everything else to do externally.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But it is not usually arising from practicing scientists, certainly not the great practicing scientists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is a very, very good point, Ravi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is not coming from the practicing scientists.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's coming from people who are using them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes, that's a very good point.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you very much.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, Ravi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And all the very best and let's keep
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[SPEAKER_01]: sensibly optimistic yes sensibly optimistic that that draw with a great piece of music in ten years time would be open and someone will discover it certainly we should not be pessimistic in any sense because that would not allow us to do anything if we become completely pessimistic thank you very much thank you very much Ravi
