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00:00:10.188I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of Wisdom at Work older women, elder women and grandmothers on the move, the podcast that kicks old stereotypes to the curb.
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00:00:27.986Come, meet these creative, outrageous, authentic, adventurous, irreverent and powerful disruptors and influencers older women and grandmothers, from the living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life the living room to the courtroom, making powerful contributions in every walk of life.
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00:00:30.269Hi everyone, welcome back to Wisdom at Work.
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00:00:42.890I'm your host, ilana Landsberg-Lewis, and today I have the real pleasure, deep pleasure and honor to speak to Hope Chigudu, and in her words.
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00:01:03.484Hope is an uncontainable feminist activist with decades of experience in feminist movement building, feminist leadership development, and has honed her considerable skills in organizational development, health and well-being of individuals and the collective, a holistic approach where people are the focus and their needs, emotions and senses are supported and enhanced.
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00:01:14.629As enunciated in her tremendous book Strategies for Building Organizations with a Soul, she is also a coach, a facilitator of transitions and human possibilities, as she puts it.
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00:01:27.462Her work is mostly based in Africa, but it spans continents and movements, focusing on dismantling oppressive structures through strategic organizing and creating futures of love, justice and liberation.
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00:01:42.912Hope is the co-founder of the Zimbabwe Women's Resource Center and Network, served on the board of many key organizations in the non-profit and feminist space, from the Global Fund for Women to Practical Action, and I love this paragraph in Hope's bio.
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00:02:10.891It says lightened, where power pulsates through us from above below around, and runs through, transforming all that is within and without leaving our bellies bursting with joy.
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00:02:29.931On a personal note, hope has been one of the mentors or the femtors in my life, always present in my thinking and inquiry around feminism and inclusion, accountability and deep relational thinking and ways of being in community, from political activism to our organizations.
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00:02:52.574Hope has had a profound influence on my thinking and, I hope, on the way I walk through the world, and I quote Hope often talking about how self-care is a radical act of feminist activism Something you said to me, hope, many years ago and I have never forgotten it, and I do hope that someday I will get to nirvana and be able to practice it myself.
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00:02:55.546Welcome to the conversation, hope.
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00:02:57.311It's just so wonderful to have you here.
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00:02:59.485Thanks very much, Ilana.
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00:03:00.108Thank you.
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00:03:08.088There's so much to talk about and I can't do your life's work justice in the bio, so I hope the conversation will take us more deeply into it.
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00:03:16.210But as I was reading it I was thinking about the power of the language that you use, and things are so fraught.
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00:03:26.722There's so much instability, outrage, fear, anxiety, certainly in feminist organizing and in the ongoing struggle to dismantle oppressive structures.
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00:03:34.128At the same time that you talk about that in your bio and in life, you use such powerful words that are life-affirming.
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00:03:44.429I want to hear more about that because I think in these times, perhaps in particular, it's such a powerful counterpoint or such a powerful place to go to powerful counterpoint or such a powerful place to go to.
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00:03:45.310Thanks very much.
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00:03:59.921When most of us started working in the area of women's rights, it was always the 'other woman'.
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00:04:03.469It was never, you know, about us - and it was like you just come, and work and work your heart.
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00:04:15.590Yeah, your heart might come in and support you, but in actual fact you're expected to abandon it at the gate, leave it there, you know, and go and work.
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00:04:21.857On the way, hope that you find it still beating and pick it up and go home.
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00:04:22.839Right.
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00:04:26.670Yeah, but then I think some of us started questioning that.
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00:04:29.550I mean, what kind of work can you do without your heart?
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00:04:41.487What kind of work can you do and hope that you find your heart still throbbing at the gate, because I think if you leave it at the gate for many years, sooner or later it stops throbbing.
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00:05:02.494So for me, fighting to make sure that when we go to work, or when we meet as collectives, when we meet in spaces, we carry our hurts (and not just carry them) to make sure that we are creating loving organizations that hold us to do the kind of work that we do.
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00:05:26.634We need love, we need to put it at the center, because if we don't have it we just become technical and as technical people we are not.
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00:05:38.870Clarity in terms of the dance between us, among ourselves, the collective and collective accountability, you know, became very important for me and still is very important for me.
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00:05:45.826Let me add this Irana, you know we are women activists, men of us, we are human rights activists.
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00:05:58.663We are gender non-conforming people activists, but we carry many backgrounds of trauma and oppression, and care and healing should be at the heart of our feminist practice.
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00:06:13.735But I think the challenge, you know, is always that of balancing, you know, self and collective care and making sure that we continue to create spaciousness, you know, to wherever we are, you know spaciousness for one another.
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00:06:26.757And you know again, this doesn't happen very easily if we don't carry joy, if we don't create loving spaces for us to operate create loving spaces for us to operate.
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00:06:34.793I love that and I think about that a lot because of listening to you and learning from you Hope, and it's interesting because in this conversation we've started sort of with the self and the individual.
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00:06:43.446But, what I have found so challenging and important to think about is what you worked on organizations with a soul.
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00:06:46.288What does it mean to have an organization with a soul?
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00:06:48.788Creating an organization with a soul.
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00:07:01.540It is creating an organization that's not fragmented, and I think that's why we are not creating its work, because you know we have to define what a soul is for ourselves, whatever it is that we are doing.
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00:07:05.350You know what does it mean to be in an organization with a soul?
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00:07:30.430It's very hard because if we are feminists, then we need to misuse of power happen and to ensure that potential problems are out in the open before they really become.
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00:08:03.660You know, very difficult To create spaces of courage where we can speak up and know that we will not be castigated for speaking up, to even find time within our work, that we create spaces of conversation, to have the tools that you know can enable us to handle, you know, criticisms, to be conscious of the way in which we use power, regardless of our positions in organization, to have the ability to hold different perspectives and then to remain a thinking organization.
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00:08:05.648You can see that is a lot of work.
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00:08:24.451I could go on and on, but at the end of the day, it's ensuring that our inner garden, the organization, is so strong and we are strong ourselves so that we can deliver on the outer, because the focus has been to deliver on the outer when the inner garden is weak.
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00:08:28.160Focus has been to deliver on the outer when the inner garden is weak.
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00:08:35.003So that's so strengthening that inner garden so that it's strong enough as to deliver on the outer.
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00:08:46.176And you know that, as I've said, to remain a thinking organization, because if you stop being a thinking organization, then that too can start fragmenting the soul of the organization.
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00:09:17.807I wonder how many of us spend time building relationships, setting aside time, getting to know one another, getting to know what triggers what doesn't, getting to know our backgrounds, getting to know what motivates us, getting to know what grounds us, getting to know what grounds us, what roots us, getting to know what ungrounds us, getting to know the fire extinguishers and the fire igniters?
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00:09:21.068How many of us really take time to do that?
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00:09:26.030Because even when we do our strategic plans, we don't start from there.
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00:09:28.024As you said, we don't start with ourself.
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00:09:30.168It's always the other person.
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00:09:41.707But sit and say okay, we are going to engage in this strategic thinking planning, but let's start with ourselves, because, as I said earlier on, we first strengthen the inner garden.
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00:09:51.051I think if we started from there as people who do the work, as people who are wounded as well, because it's not like we come into these spaces and wounded.
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00:10:03.701There would be an actual point that would now enable us to get into discussing power and power dynamics, because, again, in feminist circles, the tendency is to pretend that you know these things of power.
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00:10:05.629They are not for us, they are for Trump.
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00:10:19.833But in actual fact, you know, it's perhaps easier to confront Trump, but very deep out you know, when it comes to a deeper understanding, the dynamics amongst ourselves.
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00:10:42.230So it's not like we can solve every difficult, unspoken, uncomfortable moment that we experience as we do the work, but we need a shared understanding around how to speak to each other with both care and courage, knowing that in our main identities and background, power is not simple.
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00:10:48.307It's not a simple binary, because in some contexts I have power, in others probably I don't.
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00:11:04.947So there are multiple forms of power and positionality and agency, as well as of privilege and disprivilege, and these deep structures are often, you know what I call the undiscussables, the unspeakables.
00:11:05.019 -->
00:11:07.115Yeah, that we sit on, but you know what I call the undiscussables, the unspeakables.
00:11:07.115 -->
00:11:17.375Yeah, that we sit on, but you know, having said all that, for me the most important thing is that you need to really understand just what grounds and ungrounds you.
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00:11:24.570What is it that could kill your activist fire and how can the organization support you?
00:11:24.570 -->
00:11:33.751How do we strengthen you know the way we work together, and how do we do so without hurting or causing harm?
00:11:33.751 -->
00:11:38.104How can we disagree without attacking one another?
00:11:38.104 -->
00:11:43.373How do we prevent hurt from you know being the order of the day?
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00:11:45.174How do we do all these things?
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00:11:58.370How do we hold multiple truths, perspectives and perceptions and experiences with grace, generosity, as well as the ability to share our heart or disagreements?
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00:12:07.625These are some of the things that enter that port of organizations with us and which port we really avoid.
00:12:07.625 -->
00:12:11.374We would rather break it rather than investigate the contents.
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00:12:19.068You know, hope, whenever I hear you speak or whenever I'm speaking with you, I always wish that I've known you so much longer than I have.
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00:12:27.434I always think I wish I'd known you when I was younger in life, so that I had a lifetime of these conversations.
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00:12:33.513And it makes me think what was it that brought you to this place, of these deep observations?
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00:12:51.754I mean, I know it's through a lifetime of work, but also just in who you are, even when you're doing the hardest work or speaking about the hardest things, as I've seen you do you also bring a lightness of being a joy, an ability to laugh and inspire others, even in the midst of really hard work.
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00:12:57.333This is an interesting question because I remember telling you, you know, in Toronto that when.
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00:12:59.782I think, about organizations with a soul.
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00:13:19.091It's the one you read, stephen Lewis Foundation, and I told you that I wasn't sure about the nitty gritty because I wasn't there on a day-to-day basis, but just you know, thinking about my own experience and the experience of all the visitors that entered the gates of your organization, that was it.
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00:13:28.192So I could turn around this question and ask you how you did it, but let me try to answer your question and thanks, thank you.
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00:13:30.268First, I started working in government.
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00:13:37.609I was working in the government of Zimbabwe for the Minister of Women and really, in government, you are there.
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00:13:44.208You can sometimes, you know you disappear for two days and no one would know you disappeared, depending on what they were doing.
00:13:44.208 -->
00:13:53.390It's only when they were looking for you that they would know you are not there and you did work and you are not seen because the hierarchy was very, very clear.
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00:13:56.221It doesn't matter what you did, but you are not seen.
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00:14:02.881I remember the person I was reporting to, calling me, closing the door and saying look here, people think you are the boss here.
00:14:02.881 -->
00:14:04.464Turn down, turn down.
00:14:04.464 -->
00:14:10.673And I thought, my God, you know how do I change myself now?
00:14:10.673 -->
00:14:12.495I thought I was behaving normally.
00:14:12.495 -->
00:14:17.722But he said no, you have turned down people.
00:14:17.722 -->
00:14:19.765You know I don't like it when people think you are my boss.
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00:14:22.029He was my boss and then I kept thinking is this the way it should be?
00:14:22.029 -->
00:14:37.779Then I left and did some work with the UN and I remember the person who was known as the backstopping officer saying to me he said you know, hope, the thing is that when you write reports, the language you are using, who uses such a language?
00:14:37.779 -->
00:14:45.553And I saw myself being pushed to working towards a soulless organization and soulless words.
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00:14:50.927She really, really resented my words and I think I stayed for two years or so.
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00:14:52.009I couldn't survive.
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00:14:52.532I left.
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00:14:55.549We created an organization, the one you you know.
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00:15:07.471You talked about the Zimba Women's Resource Center, and the demands from the funders were so many, but one of those was sustaining the organization.
00:15:07.471 -->
00:15:17.570You know those questions of sustainability of the organization, sustainability of funding, sustainability of this and that, and yet we were working day and night.
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00:15:19.326We were really working hard.
00:15:19.326 -->
00:15:25.980There was nothing about sustainability of our bodies and that, for me, was a wake-up call.
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00:15:30.331So we are here talking about sustaining this organization.
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00:15:39.231We are here talking about ensuring that the money is available, but there is nothing about sustaining the bodies that are engaging here.
00:15:39.899 -->
00:15:48.696And I remember, you know, there was a rigorous debate and critical reflection about you know what I meant by that when I was talking about sustainability.
00:15:48.696 -->
00:15:56.471And then I joined the board of Agent Action Fund and again I started talking about sustainability of activists.
00:15:56.471 -->
00:16:05.409I am not so sure if I quite understood it the way I do now, but I was talking about it and again, you know, I was asked what I meant.
00:16:05.409 -->
00:16:12.783But from there, you know, things started changing and people started recognizing and respecting that.
00:16:12.783 -->
00:16:20.211You know we are the people who do the work and it's very important to preserve our energy, our dignity, our wellness.
00:16:20.211 -->
00:16:23.769And then I kept deepening my understanding of that.
00:16:23.940 -->
00:16:32.971But as time has gone on, I realized that joy, working with joy, is very important because when you are not happy, definitely you can't be sustainable.
00:16:32.971 -->
00:16:46.169I also realized that creating loving organizations although I was hesitant to use that word either way prefer that love word, but that's what we work for At the end of the day, that's what we work for.
00:16:46.169 -->
00:16:52.312So, naming it and saying that love, joy, you know these are feminist concepts and we should not run away from them.
00:16:52.312 -->
00:16:58.673I started, you know, pushing that because you wake up in the morning and you go to work.
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00:17:02.409If you are not really working in a loving organization, what is it?
00:17:02.409 -->
00:17:08.310So I started seeing love as something that generates energy, even in our homes.
00:17:08.310 -->
00:17:11.863You know, in the work that we do on a day-to-day basis.
00:17:11.863 -->
00:17:19.589When there is love, imagine the way, you know, you wake up, smiling and singing and you are rushing to go and do what you are going to do.
00:17:19.589 -->
00:17:22.982Where there isn't, then there is stagnation of energy.
00:17:22.982 -->
00:17:24.928The fire gets extinguished.
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00:17:37.347So I kept exploring, thinking about these things, because I was really thinking about myself things, because I was really thinking about myself and the kind of spaces where I wanted to work and where I wanted to be, and then, of course, you know, sharing with other people.
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00:17:58.070So of late I've thought very, very much about how love generates energy and how that energy should be at the center of our work, but also how that is what we work for, because how do we talk about human rights, how do we talk about liberation, how do we talk about emancipation without love being at the center?
00:17:58.070 -->
00:18:04.566I started thinking about these things because of the spaces where I worked Very, very indifferent.
00:18:04.566 -->
00:18:06.405The government was indifferent.
00:18:06.405 -->
00:18:08.847I have even no words for it.
00:18:09.599 -->
00:18:23.596And then, when we started our NGOs, yes, we were flexible, we were, you know, agile, we were all those things, but still very, very much scared to talk about love, to talk about fire, to talk about groundedness, to talk about joy.
00:18:23.596 -->
00:18:29.131We were scared but tentatively, tentatively, started introducing these words.
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00:18:41.773Some people are still scared of them, but I think some are beginning to understand that these are feminist words that we shouldn't surrender to the corporate sector or to other institutions.
00:18:41.773 -->
00:18:43.762And the work continues.
00:18:43.762 -->
00:18:46.730There is still a lot of work, you know, that we need to think about.
00:18:46.730 -->
00:18:51.125There is still a lot of work that we need to explore Because of NFT's wellness.
00:18:51.125 -->
00:18:52.409What does it really mean?
00:18:52.409 -->
00:18:57.051You know, how far do we go with it as organizations?
00:18:57.579 -->
00:19:16.866When you're trying to create spaces, organizations, cultures where taking care of ourselves and caring about ourselves and our wealth is actually part of the culture, not something that's individualized, like you do it outside of your work hours and then in work you just deal with whatever you're dealing with.
00:19:16.866 -->
00:19:22.905I was having a conversation with a group of go-go's in South Africa and I remember one of them.
00:19:22.905 -->
00:19:24.465It's quite life-changing for me.
00:19:24.465 -->
00:19:36.262One of them was saying to me you know, people think that because we're grandmothers, we are love, we embody love, we give love.
00:19:36.262 -->
00:19:40.300And she said but people underestimate us because they don't understand that love is not just this nice feeling that we have and that we give.
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00:19:42.125It's actually what powers us.
00:19:42.285 -->
00:19:47.202It is the power, it's the force for resilience, for continuing on.
00:19:47.202 -->
00:19:50.571Love is actually a power that we can tap into.
00:19:50.571 -->
00:19:55.571You shouldn't be ashamed of using the word love or talking about it as a force.
00:19:55.571 -->
00:19:59.069I think it's much easier to say than it is to do.
00:19:59.619 -->
00:20:01.584Indeed, it can be easier to do.
00:20:01.584 -->
00:20:23.212I cannot forget arriving in Toronto and being met with a flask of coffee and jackets, warm jackets, knowing we are coming from you know countries that usually don't experience winter Phones, and then you know, like a first aid kit.
00:20:23.212 -->
00:20:26.407What organizations think like that?
00:20:26.407 -->
00:20:41.604And to you, maybe you know you took that for granted, but for me, every time I give an example of a loving organization, I talk about the Stephen Lewis Foundation that you led at that time and the simple things.
00:20:41.604 -->
00:20:47.952You know, easier things to start with, we don't have to really go into complications, as if the day-to-day reality doesn't matter.
00:20:47.952 -->
00:20:54.432Anyone seeing us at the airport would never have believed that we were invited by an organization.
00:20:54.432 -->
00:20:58.407It was like you're invited by, you know, an individual home, even those.
00:20:58.407 -->
00:21:00.353You don't think about those details.
00:21:00.353 -->
00:21:01.923So we are doing this work.
00:21:01.923 -->
00:21:07.806You've done it, maybe not consciously, but for us to observe, yes, you know, we know that you've done it.
00:21:08.126 -->
00:21:38.049But where it becomes very difficult, Ilana, you know, this work that we are talking about is the way how do I put it is balancing self and collective care and promoting care without diluting the work that we do, because, you know, I've seen situations where people on their own, you know they are on their own personal liberation journeys, but sometimes they want to achieve the liberation at the expense of the collective.
00:21:38.049 -->
00:21:41.647You know where you don't know how to create collective.
00:21:41.647 -->
00:21:43.267You know loving boundaries.
00:21:43.267 -->
00:21:48.826So, when we talk about love, what are those loving boundaries that we can create?
00:21:48.826 -->
00:21:52.351And even there, what is individual responsibility?
00:21:52.779 -->
00:21:57.332You are talking about creating organizations with a soul, loving organizations.
00:21:57.332 -->
00:21:59.647Where does the organization start?
00:21:59.647 -->
00:22:01.626Where do individuals come in?
00:22:01.626 -->
00:22:05.109And for me, you know, these are things I'm struggling with.
00:22:05.109 -->
00:22:20.773So how can we become better at this work of shared accountability when it comes to our well-being, when it comes to creating a loving organization, when it comes to creating organizations of joy?
00:22:20.773 -->
00:22:27.765That is a question that I'm grappling with right now, because I don't know where we start and end.
00:22:27.765 -->
00:22:39.163We normally assume good faith, but, again, you know, we need to keep challenging each other and disagreeing, if that must be, but disagreeing without hurting one another.
00:22:39.163 -->
00:22:45.305And then, of course, the constituencies out there, because we didn't create organization for ourselves.
00:22:45.305 -->
00:22:48.873We created them, yes, for us and for our constituencies.
00:22:49.440 -->
00:22:51.586The balancing and the thinking of that through.
00:22:51.586 -->
00:22:54.282I think that's what I meant earlier when I was talking about vigilance.
00:22:54.282 -->
00:22:58.032There's a willingness to engage in really difficult conversations.
00:22:58.032 -->
00:23:00.224So I wanted to ask you about something else.
00:23:00.224 -->
00:23:02.971You move and exude a joyfulness, hope.
00:23:02.971 -->
00:23:17.432When we were traveling in Canada together, I really felt the profound connection between sort of creativity and storytelling and the work that we do and the gravitas, the seriousness of it.
00:23:17.432 -->
00:23:20.609But I want to ask you about the creative side of life.
00:23:20.609 -->
00:23:21.944How do you think about?
00:23:22.026 -->
00:23:22.066it.
00:23:22.701 -->
00:23:32.113For me, the work of radical imagination is very important, and then when I think of that radical imagination, it goes into creativity.
00:23:32.113 -->
00:23:36.392I find that there is joy when we are being creative.
00:23:36.392 -->
00:23:45.547I find that when we try, and even you know, imagine our futures and put it in an art form, and art form takes many forms.
00:23:45.547 -->
00:23:51.272I cannot, you know, I cannot compose music, but can design things.
00:23:51.272 -->
00:23:59.013For example, we were celebrating my sister-in-law, my brother's wife, who had supported many students.
00:23:59.013 -->
00:24:10.394Well, she's always worked within university settings and I asked at least as many people as I could remember that she supported to donate a piece of cloth so that we make a skirt for her.
00:24:10.394 -->
00:24:14.750We created this skirt with different energies, because that's another thing.
00:24:14.750 -->
00:24:15.833I believe we are energy.
00:24:15.833 -->
00:24:20.409I definitely know that we are energy, and even in physics we know energy travels.
00:24:20.409 -->
00:24:27.354So I was trying to create this energetic skirt for her to recognize that this piece came from sun.
00:24:27.354 -->
00:24:33.909So we, inside the piece there were names of people whom she had supported, at least the ones I could reach.
00:24:33.909 -->
00:24:47.630So imagine you wear that skirt and then, inside the names of people you have supported, the energy that goes with that, the love that goes with that, and then, when you wear it you're on fire.
00:24:48.230 -->
00:24:52.766So for me, creativity, you know it produces pressure about activism.
00:24:52.766 -->
00:24:58.742It makes us to do work in a joyful manner, and I know people do that differently.
00:24:58.742 -->
00:25:07.367But for me I want us to do work that makes us feel good, smell good, taste good and make sure that everyone feels that they belong.
00:25:07.367 -->
00:25:09.353Somehow you build a movement.
00:25:09.353 -->
00:25:11.508Fun making is part of movement building.
00:25:11.508 -->
00:25:14.589But that joy has to be reflected outside.
00:25:14.589 -->
00:25:17.869If you are doing well inside, outside, people will see.
00:25:17.869 -->
00:25:25.332And this doesn't mean that you should go around, you know, smiling unnecessarily and pretending you can be joyful 24 hours.
00:25:25.332 -->
00:25:34.189But one of the things I always ask myself when things are not working well, I ask what is in my tool that I can call upon now?
00:25:34.189 -->
00:25:40.271And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but eventually you know something, something will pop up.
00:25:40.713 -->
00:25:52.564So creativity, radical imagination, connecting these are things that I find you create joy, create love, but also an interest in people, looking at people.
00:25:52.564 -->
00:26:01.851So I look at people right from head to toe and start to really looking at the way they are put together and the beauty of the way they are put together.
00:26:01.851 -->
00:26:05.191You know, even when I'm at an airport and I've sat there for a long time.
00:26:05.191 -->
00:26:07.500I can actually sit at an airport for many hours.
00:26:07.500 -->
00:26:10.708I'll be looking at the way people are put together.
00:26:10.708 -->
00:26:18.030So that work of imagination, I think, cannot be separated from movement building, from strengthening movements.
00:26:18.030 -->
00:26:23.231But also Irana, that it takes positive energy to recognize positive energy.
00:26:23.231 -->
00:26:33.606Yes, so if you recognize positive energy in a person, it means that you yourself, you are carrying that energy and for me, energy is important.
00:26:33.606 -->
00:26:36.480I could talk about energy, energy, energy forever.
00:26:36.480 -->
00:26:37.621Energy travels.
00:26:37.621 -->
00:26:47.693So when your soul is dancing, it will connect with my soul and my soul will know a hindered spirit and will dance.
00:26:47.693 -->
00:26:49.036You know as well.
00:26:49.861 -->
00:26:51.112I love that so much.
00:26:51.112 -->
00:26:55.210There's something so powerful about that storytelling.
00:26:55.210 -->
00:26:57.920These days Hope I hear a lot about storytelling.
00:26:57.920 -->
00:27:04.913I don't know if it's a renewed interest connection back to the importance of the stories we tell.
00:27:04.913 -->
00:27:06.964Who's telling the stories?
00:27:06.964 -->
00:27:08.088Who's listening to the stories?
00:27:08.088 -->
00:27:09.707What are we weaving as we tell them?
00:27:09.707 -->
00:27:13.068And I know you think about this and talk about this.
00:27:13.440 -->
00:27:25.971Yeah, I don't know, because I think we are stories, we are working stories and ironically, even this storytelling, you know, I think, was revived very much by the corporate sector.
00:27:25.971 -->
00:27:34.912They found the importance of it and I see many management books too, you know, in form of stories.
00:27:34.912 -->
00:27:37.847But for me, you know from where we are.
00:27:37.847 -->
00:27:53.832If we are thinking about radical social change, then you know we have to think expansively and we have to really dream, create room for dreaming, and then I don't know that one can create that room for dreaming without telling stories.
00:27:53.832 -->
00:27:58.169I don't know if one can run away from what we see around.
00:27:58.169 -->
00:28:04.791You know cynicism, you know despair and not really get into storytelling.
00:28:04.791 -->
00:28:09.490But as Hope I grew up in a culture of storytellers.
00:28:09.490 -->
00:28:14.171It was, I think, for many black people in a way I really imagine.
00:28:14.171 -->
00:28:21.372You know storytelling has been with us, has been part of us, where you know every opportunity that you get is a story.
00:28:21.372 -->
00:28:30.429Whether you are working together in a garden, you know as workers, women, young people and others, you are telling stories.
00:28:30.429 -->
00:28:32.872You are going to fetch water, you are telling stories.
00:28:32.872 -->
00:28:35.816You are fetching firewood, you are telling stories.
00:28:35.816 -->
00:28:54.469Stories are part of us, they are written on our bodies and when we talk about decolonizing in our context, when we talk about decolonizing our approaches, I think storytelling is one of them, because you can't build I don't know if you can build a community without stories.
00:28:54.469 -->
00:28:58.648Whenever people gather, you know they share stories.
00:28:58.648 -->
00:29:05.931Especially when they are sharing very difficult information, they find a way of softening it through a story.
00:29:05.931 -->
00:29:10.505When people want to talk about someone or to warn you, it's about a story.
00:29:10.505 -->
00:29:13.950But even if one doesn't, you know, go that far.
00:29:13.950 -->
00:29:15.767Our organizations are stories.
00:29:15.767 -->
00:29:39.423So we are reclaiming the power of storytelling and, as I've said, it seems, you know, that storytelling has spread beyond us as women who work with other women, gender non-conforming people who work with others, whatever you know variety of people, intergenerational connections.
00:29:39.442 -->
00:29:40.285You know stories are coming back.
00:29:40.285 -->
00:29:46.795You know people are beginning to look at different forms of resistance and the tools that we are used or that have been used.
00:29:46.795 -->
00:29:53.292They are beginning to think about the different strategies, the different stories and how the stories went around.
00:29:53.292 -->
00:30:00.534I remember one of the stories that fascinated me during slave trade was the one of weaving hair.
00:30:00.534 -->
00:30:05.791How messages were within the different weaves, different messages.
00:30:05.791 -->
00:30:07.644You know you look at this weave.
00:30:07.644 -->
00:30:09.130You know, oh, we are supposed to run.
00:30:09.130 -->
00:30:14.811You look at that wave, you say stay grounded, this and that, and I thought, wow, how did we lose that?
00:30:14.811 -->
00:30:40.493What happened, yeah, so I think we have many stories, stories of resistance, stories that are beautiful stories, that are joyful stories, that are creative stories that you know are effective in a number of ways, and we really need to continue thinking about storytelling as a very, very interesting strategy in building resistance, in building movements that serve our people, but also in supporting ourselves.
00:30:41.477 -->
00:30:44.164Is there a difference for you as you get older?
00:30:44.164 -->
00:30:45.699I wonder.
00:30:45.699 -->
00:30:47.064What lens does it give you?
00:30:47.064 -->
00:30:49.463What reflection does it spark for you?
00:30:49.816 -->
00:30:58.463So what I find missing in all these things, when you talk about old women and whoever else is there, it's the conversation on transitions.
00:30:58.463 -->
00:31:16.810I have never understood why we don't talk about transitions, why we don't prepare for transitions, not just because of age, but there are many transitions that happen, even transitioning from one job to the other, or from transitioning from a permanent job to working from home.
00:31:16.810 -->
00:31:21.166So because we don't talk about these transitions, there are gaps.
00:31:21.166 -->
00:31:28.917Maybe if we talked about them, people would also go out and really find old women wherever they are, so and so transitioned.
00:31:28.917 -->
00:31:30.602How is she doing what is happening?
00:31:30.602 -->
00:31:32.386How can we tap into?
00:31:32.386 -->
00:31:34.659You know what they were doing and what they already know.
00:31:34.659 -->
00:31:37.926So I've been pushing for transitions in spaces.
00:31:38.115 -->
00:31:44.355I love that some of the words that I use these days I would have been afraid to use them in the past.
00:31:44.355 -->
00:31:54.358Even when I talk about love, when I talk about J within an organizational context, I was afraid to use those words because I thought I'd be judged.
00:31:54.358 -->
00:31:56.663For me, it's courage.
00:31:56.663 -->
00:32:02.903I remember the first time I talked about organizations with a soul, some of them walked out.
00:32:02.903 -->
00:32:09.243They were like I'm not coming to talk about souls, but now, if they walked out, a great, they might stay there by myself.
00:32:09.744 -->
00:32:21.217So the thing that stands out for me is courage and the power to imagine, the power to explore, the power to use a song, if a song is going to explain what I'm talking about.
00:32:21.217 -->
00:32:24.458That is what growing old has meant for me.
00:32:24.458 -->
00:32:26.199That is what growing old has meant for me.
00:32:26.199 -->
00:32:33.883But I find myself talking about things as the way I see them, the way I want to see them, the things that I miss talking about.
00:32:33.883 -->
00:32:35.763I'm talking about that now.
00:32:35.763 -->
00:32:40.767The imagination I wanted when I was young and feared using it.
00:32:40.767 -->
00:32:42.248I'm doing that now.
00:32:42.248 -->
00:32:45.450So that's what growing old has meant for me.
00:32:46.109 -->
00:32:51.913I love that you use the word courage, because sometimes I think it's not just that getting older means that it gets easier to do it.
00:32:57.816 -->
00:33:00.401So it still takes courage to do it, to say what you think and feel.
00:33:00.401 -->
00:33:07.505But I also find that remaining connected with young people is good for my soul, Because I've got a corner for many young people.
00:33:07.505 -->
00:33:18.344Some are very exciting, Some are challenging, Some I challenge them too because I look at them and think, wow, you know you are young, but your actions don't show that.
00:33:18.344 -->
00:33:24.835Some come to me because they want to just have a conversation with a Kantaka soul woman.
00:33:24.835 -->
00:33:42.240I think we need those intergenerational connections, conversations, and sometimes when I'm talking to them I even forget that they are much, much, much, much younger than me, because some of them they look very young in age but the souls are very old and when you're in common cause.
00:33:42.582 -->
00:33:44.223Yes, such a deep connection.
00:33:44.365 -->
00:33:46.017Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:33:46.017 -->
00:33:56.718But I think that part of the ageism is a donor instrument, because you know now, wherever you go, you go to a meeting say, oh, you know.
00:33:56.718 -->
00:33:59.183Do you want to share what is troubling you now?
00:33:59.183 -->
00:34:11.043Do you want to share what the issues are right now and they talk about and things connected with age, even without thinking, because that's what they have been told, you know, that's what the funders want to hear.
00:34:11.043 -->
00:34:17.253So for sure, I mean, age is an issue we need to keep talking because we come from different generations.
00:34:17.253 -->
00:34:22.806But I also think that can be exaggerated and put in context where it doesn't apply.
00:34:23.255 -->
00:34:39.056I completely agree, you talk about and write about outrage, a lot of people who are galvanized and mobilizing, many cataclysmic moments unfolding and I just wanted to hear what you're thinking and even perhaps, how you're engaging with others around these things.
00:34:39.516 -->
00:34:52.519You know, one of the things that I've been thinking about very much is the power of the ecosystem, that over the years we separated ourselves from nature.
00:34:52.519 -->
00:35:17.485In these troubled times, I've found much, much comfort in going back to nature, thinking about biodiversity, you know, and how things connect, because the way we are now, if we don't enhance our relationships again, going to our area of conversation in terms of age, in terms of sexuality, in terms of you know where we are placed in life If we don't strengthen that, we are finished.
00:35:17.485 -->
00:35:24.128I also find that what we are going through calls for, you know, small, small things.
00:35:24.128 -->
00:35:29.643You know it might not be a huge movement, but groups that meet every now and again.
00:35:29.643 -->
00:35:31.963The other day I was sitting here.
00:35:31.963 -->
00:35:43.521I was so troubled and I was thinking I need someone to talk to Creating those islands of support and knowing that, you know, when things are tough, there are these islands of support.
00:35:43.521 -->
00:35:48.666Of course, I mean I'm looking at that at the micro level, but I think that's where we start from.
00:35:48.666 -->
00:35:50.621Then we can broaden it.
00:35:50.621 -->
00:36:00.483I started learning about those islands of support when things were tough in Zimbabwe and they continue to be tough.
00:36:00.483 -->
00:36:13.215I learned that there must be corners where I'll sit and even forget what is happening in the context and concentrate on me so that, as I've said, the inner garden is strong as to face the outer.
00:36:13.215 -->
00:36:27.871And the other thing that I think about very much is what we've talked about integrating pressure and well-being into the work that we do, but also joy and healing as essential elements of the work that we do.
00:36:27.871 -->
00:36:50.463So just seeing pleasure as a natural part and vital part of my life, of our lives, and trying to create safe and supportive spaces for joy, so I cannot imagine that we can manage this world without some form of healing, you know, of some sort, because if we don't heal, you know, more and more bitterness sits on our bodies.
00:36:51.065 -->
00:36:53.773Fear, fear, this word called fear.
00:36:53.773 -->
00:37:03.382I don't know how many people I've talked to of late and they said to me I'm so scared, I'm so scared Even when they are not looking at the big picture, but from where they are.
00:37:03.382 -->
00:37:18.547I'm talking a lot about fear and how we can really, in an honest way, see how we experience it and the strategies we can use to minimize it, but, more than anything else, the power of connection, connecting, connecting globally.
00:37:18.547 -->
00:37:24.347You know, you hear this statement, trump comes up with this statement and you sit with it all day long.
00:37:24.347 -->
00:37:44.715But when you connect, whether it is on zoom, whether it is, you know, face to face, you go away with some kind of hope about the future and you can really get honest and look at, you know the world and share, and you know see where you can borrow from other.
00:37:44.715 -->
00:37:48.739Post strategiesstrategies Are we building communities from where we are?
00:37:48.739 -->
00:37:50.740Are we being supportive?
00:37:50.740 -->
00:37:52.623Are we connecting with nature?
00:37:52.623 -->
00:37:56.407Where are we headed if we are not talking?
00:37:57.228 -->
00:38:00.952I see new groups of young activists emerging.
00:38:00.952 -->
00:38:03.195They are so fearless.
00:38:03.195 -->
00:38:07.559You know, ilana, think about the LGBTIQ movement in Uganda.
00:38:07.559 -->
00:38:09.739Those people, I can't get over them.
00:38:09.739 -->
00:38:14.503There is a lot of courage, and then that goes for the environmental movement as well.
00:38:14.503 -->
00:38:18.586I mean, you see young people who are very, very brave, who are speaking out.
00:38:18.586 -->
00:38:21.548So for me, I see there is hope for the future.
00:38:21.548 -->
00:38:23.489Yeah, there is hope for the future.
00:38:23.489 -->
00:38:26.873Sometimes we think that, oh, what is going to happen when we are no longer here?
00:38:26.873 -->
00:38:31.577There are so many people who are doing great things and they work along, you know, with this work.
00:38:32.019 -->
00:38:36.702And I take a lot of hope too from that , especially around climate justice and activism.
00:38:36.702 -->
00:38:42.382I see so much intergenerational work happening, so many older women in particular.
00:38:43.295 -->
00:38:44.438You know there is fire.
00:38:44.438 -->
00:38:47.367There is fire here and there you find those pockets of fire.
00:38:47.367 -->
00:38:51.001You know much as there is so much fear, there is fearlessness as well.
00:38:51.556 -->
00:38:53.141This is a perfect note to end on.
00:38:53.141 -->
00:38:55.163I want to end with fearlessness.
00:38:55.163 -->
00:39:04.280You always give me and give us so much to think about, hope and provoke us to go deeper, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for this conversation.
00:39:07.235 -->
00:39:08.722No, but you are very provocative too.
00:39:08.722 -->
00:39:10.289I'm very happy to connect with you.
00:39:11.076 -->
00:39:12.313Thank you, Hope, I feel the same way.
00:39:14.119 -->
00:39:15.001Thanks very much.
00:39:15.021 -->
00:39:15.623Bye.
00:39:15.623 -->
00:39:16.806Thanks for listening.
00:39:16.806 -->
00:39:22.621I'm Ilana Landsberg-Lewis, your host of Wisdom at Work older women, elder women and grandmothers on the move.
00:39:22.621 -->
00:39:34.119To find out more about me or the podcast, you can go to wisdomatworkpodcastcom, formerly grandmothers on the move, and you can find the podcast at all your favorite places to listen to them.
00:39:34.119 -->
00:39:35.322Tune in next week.
00:39:35.322 -->
00:39:36.945Thanks and bye-bye for now.
