WEBVTT
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Historically, people would say, leave home life at home.
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We're human beings.
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We show up as our whole selves.
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So if something stressful is going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me to just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening.
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I don't think that's realistic because we're not human beings who can slice ourselves off like that.
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And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
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Hello everyone, I am Jess Chapman and this is Wired to Work, a podcast about how we make work actually work for where we are in today's world.
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I am very excited today to have the awesome Angela Cockwell here, as I refer to her, who is the executive director of Thrive here in St.
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John's in Newfoundland.
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And Thrive is an organization that helps or supports people navigating exploitation, criminalization, addiction, homelessness, and complex trauma every single day.
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I feel the conversation around trauma-informed world is bubbling, but I don't think a lot of people really understand what it means.
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I think sometimes people get stuck on the language we use around it.
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And I couldn't think of anyone better to make it sensible, straightforward, and pragmatic than Ange.
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So Ange, thank you for coming on and being with us today.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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So tell everybody a little bit about what you do first of all.
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Tell us about Thrive, kind of what your role is and what Thrive does.
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Yeah, so I'm the executive director here at Thrive, and we provide a variety of programs, services, and interventions for people who experience marginalization.
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And as you said in the introduction, many of our folks are struggling with housing, homelessness, substance use, mental health, mental illness.
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We work with people who've experienced human trafficking or sexual exploitation.
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And really what we're trying to do is create a caring community for people.
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And I will say there's a couple of threads that kind of run through regardless of what people's story is.
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Trauma is one of them.
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Like trauma is such a common thread, regardless of if you're if your issue is struggling with homelessness or mental health or addictions or criminal involvement.
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Trauma is a very, very common theme for the people we support.
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So we we use the word quite a lot, and I think it's quite a big word, and quite rightly so.
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But when we're often thinking about going to work every day and showing up in our nine-to-five environment, I don't know that the vast majority of us think overly much about how trauma might be there.
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So when we talk about trauma, what exactly are we talking about?
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And how might someone kind of make sense of that for their own day-to-day world?
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Yeah, so there's a couple of, I guess, different buckets that trauma might fall into.
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So like there could be a single incident that, you know, lots of us have experienced if we were involved in like a very traumatic like car accident, like that would be a traumatic, singular type of event that can have long-lasting implications for for people's wellness.
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And then there's like complex trauma that can be like a very repeated type of experience that people have that really, you know, like it starts to compound.
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So if I grew up in a house where there was violence, and then I experienced like some kind of abuse or neglect, and then I ended up in a relationship that was, again, violent.
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Like those are less like compounded trauma experiences that have, you know, it's a bit of a different impact on how people see and experience the world versus like that kind of singular event.
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But we always say, you know, if you think about there's a massive study, adverse childhood experiences.
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Most all of us have had adverse childhood experiences.
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So like trauma is also a very common experience for all of us as human beings.
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Yes, which is kind of sad.
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And it's interesting.
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So what what does trauma-informed actually mean?
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And what does that mean for you in your world?
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And what might it mean for somebody who's just kind of gone to work in an insurance company every day?
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Yeah, so there's we talk about like there are people who are trauma aware, which means that there's this awareness of you're either working with, supervising, or providing services to people who have experiences of trauma.
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And so you have an awareness that people are bringing that into the workspace in some type of way.
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Um and that's fabulous.
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Then there's trauma-informed, and is thinking about how you set up workplaces, policies, procedures, supervision, like layout of the space, and thinking about how all of those things should be informed by the fact that you are trying to create a space that is not going to re-traumatize, re-trigger, and create safety for people who have histories of trauma.
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And that is the that's the trauma-informed that we really try the strive to create a workplace that is truly trauma-informed of response of the people, because most of the people we support have experienced trauma, but this work can be traumatizing to our employees, and so there's an obligation for us to think about that as well.
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Yes.
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So you can't have it on two friends.
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So you're the people you serve and then the people who do the work.
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And that makes total sense to me for someone in your type of situation, because you you know the vast majority of people who are coming to you for services are likely to be in that place.
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And then what you said earlier is actually most of us have some form of adverse experience, which makes me think, well, then how far do we go with it?
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So if I'm a regular kind of business owner, and I mean, not even necessarily me doing what I do with people, but let's say I run a sat hair salon or a, you know, I'm a dental assistant, am I playing in the trauma-aware end of the space?
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That we're kind of where do we start if we're trying to figure this out for something that doesn't work specifically in the kind of field that you work in?
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So I think trauma-informed is the universal thing, regardless of your working, obviously, for social service agencies such as us, but if you're working in the private market or like healthcare spaces, school spaces, I think regardless, as long as you're having interactions with human beings, then being trauma-informed is um is a really positive thing because it is such a broad experience that if we're providing services to clients like in a hair salon, for example, expect that people are gonna show up who have been impacted by trauma.
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But if you're hiring employees, expect that people are gonna show up who've been impacted by trauma.
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And so, how do we create work environments where people feel that there's safety and security for them and that they can do the best, their best work, and people can't do that if they're being uh triggered or feel unsafe.
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So it is really a win-win in terms of thinking of it from an employer perspective.
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If if we create really safe, healthy work spaces for our employees, then they tend to do better work, they tend to stay, less turnover, like all those things.
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So I do think trauma informed is a buzzword that lots of people were starting to recognize how trauma does impact people.
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And your example was really perfect around like this reaction, and it's like that's a trauma response because it's not equal to what actually was happening, but people bring all of that into the world every day.
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The world every day, exactly.
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Help people figure those things out, I just think creates a culture of wellness for everybody.
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I think a lot of it for me is the same, the same challenges that folks face generally when they think about people, right?
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So I think there is a general understanding in the world that if few people feel comfortable and safe, they're going to be a better version of themselves and they're likely going to want to do more for you and they feel comfortable and happy, which is great, and you get more because they're excited to be at work.
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But what we quite often see when it comes to things like whether inclusion and equity and diversity, whether it's um trauma related, there's this fear of getting it wrong, I think, that gets in the way for people, or this idea that, like, I don't know anything about that.
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Like, I can't talk to people.
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Like I had a conversation with a client group where they've obviously been through like difficult conversations training, and their first response to everything that we had as a scenario was, well, maybe there's something happening at home, right?
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Like their their response to everything was there must be something going on with this person personally, and I can't go there because that's private, and I shouldn't have those conversations and I'm going to refer them to EFAP.
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Now, I will say there's nothing wrong with saying that and referring people to EFAP and everything else, but a lot of people, I think, avoid having conversations.
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Do people know when they come to Thrive?
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Like, does everyone know when they come to work at Thrive that that's what they're going to be doing?
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Like, how do you equip people for that type of conversation and that kind of support?
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Yeah, so when people come to work at Thrive, they know, given the population that we're working with, and writing the job descriptions, which you helped write for us, it says like high exposure to um traumatic stories and histories.
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So people have that awareness, but when they're in the middle of it, then it's like, oh, I didn't realize it was gonna be this, yeah.
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Be this or this graphic or this much or this often.
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And so it is a bit of an ongoing process to help people process the work, debrief about the work, talk about what is triggering for them.
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So I again when I think about like the world of work, I mean, historically, you know, people would say, you know, leave per like leave home life at home.
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We're human beings.
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Like I I I I think that like kind of that thinking is is past to.
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Like we show up as our whole selves.
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So if something is something really, you know, stressful's going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me that just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening.
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I don't think that's realistic because we're not human beings who can slice ourselves off like that.
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I do think as employers, there we don't need people to tell us the details.
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What we what we do want is for staff to show up and say, like, I may not be at my best today, like I'm struggling, I feel very stressed, I feel overwhelmed, whatever.
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And again, I might need some extra support, or this may not be the best day for me to do A, B, or C.
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Like to feel safety in being able to communicate that and have some degree of accommodation for when people are having a really, really hard day, because people will show up and have a really, really hard day.
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And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
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Yeah.
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I'm not going to lose my job or have a perfor bad performance review or get bad feedback from my boss if I come in and say, I'll go, I'm not, I'm not knocking out at the bar today, I'm not firing on all senators today, I need to do some quieter work and manage that accordingly, which is the whole point really of accommodation, right?
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Yeah, and I I think it's about kindness and compassion and treating everybody with dignity and respect.
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And I will say is like sometimes people might think, oh, if we're being like extremely accommodating or like really thinking about how do we support employees or clients or whatever who have calm like who have trauma that we're lowering the expectation around performance.
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And I would say that is not the case.
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Like th I I feel like Thrive has created an unbelievably special environment here where we are very trauma-informed, where we think about the safety and accommodation for the people who do the like the employees, but also the people who come through.
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I also have a very high expectation that you are gonna do excellent work.
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We as an employer, we're gonna do everything within reason to create a space where you can do excellent work, and then you have each employee has a responsibility to do that work.
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And are there days or weeks when again something's happening that we're not all on our game?
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That's it, like of course we are.
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But if somebody is like, I really am struggling and I'm gonna be operating at 30%, that's the best I can ever give you.
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You're gonna have to go do figure figure out and do do work on your own to f you know, the kind of make sure like you can actually perform.
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So I don't think there is it is not an either-or is a both and.
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You can have very high expectations that employees will perform.
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And employees should also have high expectation that when they're doing given their best, their employer is thinking about their safety, their wellness, and they're working for an employer organization that really cares and takes care of them.
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I mean, and that makes a whole lot of sense, I think, and and I think for most people, I say most, because I'm not sure it's true that it's everyone, but I think most of us would recognize the desire to support people and then we all have dimes that were in and out.
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I think the challenge sometimes comes for folks when that person is not aware.
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Right.
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So I think when when somebody can come and have a conversation with you and say, I'm not having a great day, and then that's a lot easier because you can sit down and have a conversation with them and say, Okay, so what you know, you don't have to tell me all sorts happening, but what would make a difference to you, and we'll talk, you know, sensibly about how we can best help you.
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I think the challenge for most uh leaders is when either the person isn't aware of how they're showing up and that something is perhaps off for them in the way that they're doing it, or their expectations of the degree of support far outstrip what somebody can sensibly deliver for them.
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And then I think it becomes a little bit trickier.
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So maybe we can tackle those two separately.
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So what do we do then, Ange?
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Like what does like how do we because we aren't most leaders are not counselors, they're not therapists, they're not equipped for that type of situation.
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So how do we best equip ourselves for the likelihood that that can and will happen?
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But also what do we do if it does?
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Yeah, so one of the things around creating like trauma-informed workspaces is around transparency and accountability.
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And I think it's really important for employees to have a really good understanding around what is expected, what the feedback process looks like, what is the employer's responsibility, but also what is their responsibility.
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And so I think when you see people having um big reactions and are not self-aware, I would have very honest and frank conversations.
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And one of the feedback pieces that we get often here at Thrive is employees really appreciate the fact that we won't let anything just like fester.
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If there's an issue, and again, I remember you saying this like years ago, if something is turning over in your mind, like repeatedly, or if you're thinking about something for more than 15 minutes, deal with it.
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And so staff understand that if there's concerns, if something, program supervisor identifies something, it is going to be handled.
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It's gonna be handled very kindly, very respectfully, but it's gonna be like it's gonna be there's gonna be a conversation.
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If people do not under like don't don't have that self-awareness and the the issue is repeatedly being brought up in the work is impacting other people, then we have to deal with that.
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Like it is important, like I said, it's not a it's not a either or.
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We can create spaces where we can provide like accommodation and safety and all of that, but we are all also individually responsible for participating and creating that safe work environment.
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So if I'm a toxic person in a in a workplace, then that absolutely needs to be addressed.
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And if employers find ways to create spaces where people can work on that and do better, 100%.
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But people are have to do their own work.
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We're not counseling people either.
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That is not the role of an employer.
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And when people need that outside professional help, that is their responsibility to go get that so that they can come to work and do the work that is expected of them because there's lots of people counting on people to be able to do good work.
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Yes, I love and I do, I think so.
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I love that you remember the 15-minute rule, because I talk about that a lot.
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Folks, we have a rule in E3 world and Jess's world we've had for a long time, which is if you find yourself stewing on something that's gone on for more than 15 minutes, you have two options.
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You can let it go or you can have a conversation with the person about it.
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But if you let it go, that means you totally let it go.
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Not that you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it, not that you talk to somebody else about it, or about that person, or what happened behind the other person's back.
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Like it's literally, I'm deciding this doesn't matter and I'm fully letting it go.
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And if you can't, then you need to go have a conversation with the person about it.
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And it's a very simple rule, but actually one a couple of our clients adopted as grandwords in their organization because they had a lot of conflict that no one was talking about, and people were mad at each other and not saying they were mad at each other, and then things fester, and we know from a brain perspective what you're focused on, you get more of.
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So if things are festering, they actually get bigger, right?
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But that that pragmatism, again, there is annual pragmatism around it's not our responsibility as employees to counsel people, it's our responsibility to help them understand where they are at and whether what they're doing is appropriate for the workplace that we have designed or not, and to discuss with them how we best support them in finding the help they need to move forwards, but it is not our responsibility to to provide that help necessarily.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think sometimes, I mean, obviously the world we're working in where there is high exposure to trauma stories, there's also high exposure to, you know, watching people suffer and like loss and grief and all of that.
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And so for some people, if they come with a lot of trauma and this is like just trigger and trigger and triggering, it is also helping people realize this may not be for you.
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So it's I think there's a responsibility as well, or I feel a responsibility as an employer is to help people also figure out this is not the best place for you.
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You are not going to do your best work in this environment.
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And that's not a personal failing.
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There's there's a space and place for everybody, like I would do really in like highly structured environments with policy, you know, that would not I wouldn't work well in that.
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And so, like, that's not a personal failing on mine, but it's is also trying to help people find that match.
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So if people are showing up the work and really struggling consistently, then it's also like, can we have a conversation around is this the right place or work or whatever for you?
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Because we spend so much of our time, obviously, at work.
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We want people to find value in that and fulfilled in that.
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That's important.
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And do and do the work and be connected to the work, but not to the detriment of themselves.
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So the ability to say, I need boundaries of my own.
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Now, actually, that's an interesting thing.
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So I've had lots of conversations in the last probably six weeks, not sure why in the last six weeks, but in the last six weeks, around boundaries.
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And folks that struggle either because they're extremely kind people and they don't know when to stop, or because they just don't know where the line should be.
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Like they're either in new leadership roles and they're like, I like I don't know where the line is between friend and leader and all those types of things.
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Then I would imagine, and from my experience working with Thrive, boundaries in your world are crucial.
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They are not uh nice to have, it is not something you can figure out as you go.
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So, how do you what advice do you have for folks who might struggle with setting boundaries?
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Are there things that you have learned that other people could apply?
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Yeah, we have so many conversations around boundaries and ethics.
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And I think, again, so critical in terms of trauma-informed practice.
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People, again, people need to know where those boundaries are.
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It is what keeps people safe.
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And for people who have histories of trauma, one of the things that has often happened to them is people have crossed people's other people's personal boundaries.
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And so it is actually ethical to have very strong and clear boundaries.
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And sometimes people feel like, again, these are my friends or like coworkers.
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I'm responsible for you because you work for me as all those things.
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All of those things.
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So I feel like being very clear around boundaries is is part of that trauma informed.
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I understand as an executive director, there is a power that like I have in this role that other people in this organization do not have.
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And so thinking about the right use of power, I f I feel, you know, like on lots of days I am doing the same thing as staff.
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Like I will bring out the recycling to the curb.
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I will like, you know, I don't operate as a power position in the organization, but I recognize the power that I have.
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And it's really important for me to have very clear boundaries and not, I'm not your friend.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.440
Um, you know, often we'll say, I we will be friendly, but we are not friends.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:01.200
Friends are somebody you can call at twelve o'clock on a Friday night and say, I'm in trouble.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:02.319
Can you come help?
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.400
And you can't call me.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.480
And co-workers shouldn't be doing that.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:13.039
So I do think it's about thinking about this is a work situation, and we can care about people.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.559
And often people do find their friends at work.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:26.319
But when you're at work, there is a there is a coworker, there is a client, there is an employer, employer, employee um boundary.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.720
And to keep everybody safe and healthy, you actually need to operate within those parameters.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.160
Because once it all starts to get blurred, it becomes confusing for people.
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.799
Again, for people with strong histories of trauma, it can actually feel really unsafe.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.039
Because why is my boss being my friend?
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:54.720
Like that doesn't for people who've had their boundaries crossed, that actually often may not sit well.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.559
Like this is not what a typical relationship would be.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:05.599
So I think it's important to think about strong boundaries as actually strong ethical work behavior.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:19.599
I think that that's a that's also a really important lens because I also think sometimes people, including myself, don't always pause to think about what is it I'm about to do here and what is the long-term implication of what I'm about to do.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:30.480
And I say that from an all manner of HR things, actually, whether it's like Bobby's asked for a pay increase and I say yes because I really like Bobby, or whether it's somebody asking me to come bail them out.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.680
But actually, it could be really damaging for that person if you then have to take that help away, right?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.880
If they're going to exceed what you are capable of doing for them because they aren't your friend and they aren't your family member.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:57.200
And so you've helped them once, but now they have a misconception you're gonna help them every time, and then you then have to retract that help, you might actually be doing more damage there than you intended to in the first place.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:03.119
So I don't know that we necessarily ponder what happens from here if I do A, right?
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.599
I'm just I'm just gonna be helpful, not what happens about that.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.799
So I think that's a really, really useful frame for people and probably what not one most people would think about.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:17.440
What happens from your perspective if the expectation of support is out of whack?
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:43.279
So we have I have come across examples throughout my career where an individual was obviously going through challenges, was forthright about the challenges, which is really helpful, but then their expectation of the level of the accommodation that the organization or leader could provide was really not realistic for the circumstances and was often tied to things like, well, you're the business owner and so you've clearly got lots of money and you can afford to do X as opposed to recognizing the financial reality of things.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:52.960
So, any advice for how you support somebody that isn't delivering the way they need to, but feels like you should be giving them more rather than finding that balance?
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:58.480
Yeah, I think again, um that open and honest communication.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:08.400
I I know obviously I've talked to lots of lawyers over the years that like what is reasonable accommodation and a lawyer would help you kind of figure and haggle that out.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:21.200
But again, I think it's about um as an employer, employees having an understanding that again, I will speak from the staff at Thrive.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.359
I want them to feel like this organization has their back.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:38.960
We will try to do everything within our capacity and our resources to make sure people feel supported, that they are actually being paid and have access to the best benefits that we can afford.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.720
So hopefully, like that idea gets removed off the table.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:49.119
People understand we are taking care of people to our maximum capacity within the resources that we have.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:52.000
And then there's a very clear job description.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.759
And in return for that, here is what we expect of you.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:07.839
And so when people fall below that and need a level of accommodation that is not reasonable, then you're stepping outside of that like kind of two-way.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:14.480
And so, you know, for us, we exist to provide services to vulnerable people.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:21.279
And so if we have an employee who is unable to do that well, that's a that's an issue.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.759
And so they have a couple of options.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Like, I might need to take some time off and go figure that out.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:34.720
For us, that would be a reasonable accommodation, unless it's the fifth time that they've asked to take some time off to go figure that out.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:42.240
But if people are like, I have a plan how to make this right so I can actually do what's expected of me, excellent.
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:48.480
But I think it's having that clear expectation and being able to say, like, here's what reasonable is.
00:26:49.119 --> 00:27:07.119
And so again, we live in the world of social services, but if it is sales and like I'm really struggling, and so I actually don't want to be able to have communications with people, really hard to do a sales job, or like that's not reasonable.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.519
So then as saying to the person, What do you need to do?
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:21.920
Because it is their life, it is their challenge, and while we create an environment, people are ultimately have to do the work.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.279
Like, you know, because we support vulnerable people.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:33.200
I always say the staff when they start, like, I get very concerned with people who are like, I'm gonna save people, or I'm gonna fix people, or I'm gonna change people.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.640
We're like, no, you're not.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:43.279
You're gonna be helpful, you're gonna get create a space where hopefully people can have enough safety to think about what they need next.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.839
And we can walk alongside people, but we can't fix or change people.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:55.920
And the same as from an employer's perspective, like when we see somebody who is really struggling, can we create a safe environment?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.079
Can we have kind conversations?
00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:58.559
100%.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.640
Can you make the person well or better or what?
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.000
No, you cannot.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:07.279
I think you can have very clear expectations.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.519
And one of the things that I think we've done well is we're very clear on what our values are.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:19.839
So when people start doing stuff like we can say, how does that align with this is our values?
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.160
And you signed on to an organization that lives right.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:33.200
Again, that was going to be a and one like one of the very basic ones, it always surprises me when I hear adults talking about other workplaces.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.920
I say to every new staff, I have zero talent for workplace gossip.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.720
It is a cancer in an organization.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.359
And so if you have a concern or a complaint, 100% legit, address it.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.240
Or as you said, let it go.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:56.640
But if you're just like talking and gossiping about other people for the sake of that's that's an on-starter.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:06.400
That will not be acceptable in this organization because it that is cancerous and it festers and it creates unsafety for everybody.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:13.200
Yeah, and and so so much of what you're talking about comes back to that underlying premise of care and safety, right?
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:20.799
Like if I'm gonna have that difficult conversation with someone, no matter what the conversation is, and we we know this is true in the brain world, right?
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.559
So like relatedness and belonging are fundamental human needs.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:37.839
The more connected I feel to you, the more I feel like I belong in a place, the easier it is for you to hold a mirror up to me to whatever I need feedback on, and I'm less likely to have a strong remotional reaction, or the emotional reaction I have will be will be less high.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:42.799
And I think it's that piece about where your priority lies in the conversation.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:30:01.039
And for leaders in organizations, I think sometimes they get stuck between the human piece of wanting to give the time to the people and have the conversations and maybe lacking some of the skill, and then feeling the pressure of the organization that they've got to turn the wheel and make the money and it's got to be productive and everything's gonna be good, and they kind of get caught in that in between.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:14.000
And yet, realistically, going right back to what you said at the beginning, which I completely love and agree with, the more safe people feel, the more careful they feel, the more they will be connected, the better it is for everybody.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.519
And if you're a money person, the better your results are at the end of the day as well.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.640
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:34.319
And I think in terms of this current climate that we're all operating in, regardless of what type of industry you are, again, if you're in some type of front-facing where you have clients, people, people are highly stressed.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:43.599
And so we've seen people talk about increases in workplace violence, uh, like in healthcare settings, in school settings.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.000
I would imagine if you're in customer service.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:56.960
Like the number of people who are coming in who are unbelievably stressed and maybe lashing out at service, like like it's becoming more and more common.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:05.440
So I do think like this this is timely for people to think about in terms of how do they support employees?
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:13.359
Because we're everybody is seemingly more and more subjected to things that can be very distressing to them.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.759
And it's important for people to think about that and not make it worse.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:31.279
From your perspective, are there things that perhaps you do at Thrive or things you've seen other people do that helps continue to build people's skills in this space, continue the awareness journey, make sure it's not something we just do like twice a year when we do our compliance training?
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.960
Like, how do we actually get better at this?
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:40.160
I think helping people think about what might have been behind that experience.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:54.480
So, you know, if somebody comes in here and gets very elevated and lashes out or says something that might be hurtful or harmful, helping people think about, oh well, like that might have been a trauma response.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.519
Like, what was that?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:02.640
The same as if say in a call center, like somebody lashes out and is unkind to somebody.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:14.480
I think sometimes it is helpful for people as opposed to just understanding I was on a phone call and somebody said something that was really hurtful or harmful, or they started screaming at me.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:15.759
It's not about you.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:24.880
Like it really probably they might have been on hold for, you know, 25 minutes and had a screaming youngster at their foot.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:36.960
And like we don't know what's going on for other people, and I'm not suggesting that we excuse bad behavior, but it's helpful for people if they can think about a it's not personal.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:43.039
Like they actually weren't lashing out at you necessarily unless you were, you know, doing something.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.359
But 90% of the time, it's not personal.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.880
It is you might have been the last straw for people.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:33:01.359
And I think sometimes that's helpful for people and to think about empathy for the person who is actually being unkind to them and think they probably are having a rough day, a really bad day.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:09.359
Like sometimes I see people in traffic and I think when they lose it, I'm thinking myself, you are hanging by a thread.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:16.960
If the fact that like somebody cut you off and you like you are really having a bad day, like you're just hanging in there, right?
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:34.079
So trying to help people frame that because as we have a responsibility to do customer care or customer service, it is not realistic for us to then be like all of our customers or all of our clients have to be lovely and engaging and kind.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.000
Like that's like that's not gonna happen.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.039
It's not gonna happen.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.240
Like it would be wonderful.
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:41.440
It's not gonna happen.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:47.279
So when that doesn't happen, validate that that was that was tough, but that is the work also.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:57.200
We've again we say like sometimes people will say this work is unbelievably stressful and it's a lot and it's chaotic and we're yeah, it is.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.519
Yeah, and it's okay to support you.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.440
To also choose to opt out and go else do something else.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:03.759
Yeah.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.920
But this is yeah, this is what you signed up for.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:06.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:08.159
No, I think that I think that's okay.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:09.760
I've been chewing for a while.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.920
I need to get a t-shirt that says it's not about you.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:24.000
Um, because the in that internalization, and it took me it took me a while, like I'm older now, but I would say Jess in her twenties would have absolutely insumed negative intent, right?
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.679
Now, some of that might be trauma ages, some of that must have been me and my brain, but um and and then you make it something, right?
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.239
So somebody being mean means something about you.
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:40.480
They don't like you, they're an artist personal, it becomes much bigger than it is, when to your point, very likely you're just the last straw in the situation.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:49.599
Like often when I have to have conversations with people, I was talking to somebody about this, and they're like, Well, how when someone's like hard to you or negative to you, do you not bite back, right?
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.360
Because then it's likely to make it worse.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.519
And I said, I should do a visualization thing.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:08.079
If I know I'm going into an environment where I may be having a situation with somebody who's likely to be elevated or likely to be very unhappy, and I am the bearer of the news, and therefore I am the face in front of them, and you can fully expect that, therefore, I am the representative of the thing that's hurting them.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:11.119
Um, I imagine zipping myself into an imaginary hazmat suit, right?
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:18.000
And so then like the emotions that I'm getting are just bouncing off the suit, and then I don't need to react to those because it's not about me.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.159
I am here as the face of something that is a threat to them, and they're having a threat response to that.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.559
And my job is to try and help them with that as best as they can manage in that moment.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:34.400
But to your point, they're also an adult, and I don't have to go beyond what is a sensible, reasonable level of support for that person in that particular moment.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:35.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:52.320
And if there are ways in those really hard to like if you're dismissing somebody or if you're there's ways that you give people some semblance of choice or control, like I'll try to find it, like how would you like stuff communicated?
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.480
How would you like to leave the building?
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:09.920
How would you like like those are small things and probably in those moments they like again they want to scream at at you, but like again, whatever you do, trying to do it in a way that is giving people as much dignity and respect as you possibly can.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.920
Because all of us, most of us, are doing the best that we can.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:19.840
And sometimes it may not be enough for a workplace situation, and that's okay.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.960
But I still think if we can find those ways to do that, that's really the trauma-informed.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:37.840
It doesn't mean that we have to accommodate every issue or every need, but at the end of the day, we have understood that people bring all kinds of stuff to the table.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:46.480
We've thought about it, we've designed for it, and we've created the best work environment we can, and then as the employees to be able to work within those parameters.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:57.280
Yes, and we hold the mirror up with care and say we value and and I and I think that's also a nugget I would probably add in around remembering to distinguish between people and their behavior.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:57.760
Right.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:05.280
So we sometimes uh actually had a really great conversation with someone who used the phrase, I would put it a slightly different one, but he said there's no bad people, there's only bad situations.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.800
But that distinction between everybody is doing the best they can.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:19.440
This person may not be doing anything I like right now and be doing things that are wholly unhelpful, aggressive, negative, whatever, but that does not mean that that is them every second of the day.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:30.480
And we tend to assume that people are their worst opinion, their worst behavior, when in fact that is not at all the case, and you will largely have more in common with people than you think you do if you spend some time with them.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:36.320
And if we can start to think about, like if you think about it the other way, the people you love don't always behave the way you want, right?
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.760
So, but we don't stop loving them.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:41.920
So just because somebody shows up and gives you the behavior you don't like doesn't mean you don't have to like them forever, right?
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:42.960
There's not the same thing.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:45.360
Yeah.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:59.840
And I we'll often talk about just curiosity, like as opposed to being judgmental, if we can be curious as human beings, like if we see something and you're like, hmm, I wonder what I wonder where that came from.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:00.719
What's that about?
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:11.119
Or again, sometimes when you hear people say like truly awful things, as if we, you know, in this world we're living in right now, we can hear almost on an hourly basis.
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:11.679
Yes.
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.320
I'm always curious, like, huh, what did we get there?
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.079
Yeah, like what what what's happening that you got there?
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.519
You probably didn't land there by accident.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:24.400
No, right?
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:30.000
It doesn't mean you have to accept, but no, and it but it also doesn't mean people will necessarily stay there either, right?
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:40.239
So we're a function of our experiences, we're sp we're a function of the perceptions that we are around the lot of the time, what we grew up with, what the people we surround ourselves with think.
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:44.960
Um so you know, the the wonderful thing about people, neuroplasticity is real.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:48.159
We can change how we think, how we move, what we do.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:39:06.719
You have no idea if how you showed up in that one conversation with that person who's having a terrible day, if the kindness that you showed them or the boundary that you set for them, or the way that you approached them recognizing that it's not about you actually shifted something in their thinking and they walked away from that conversation and you helped them make a fundamental change.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.199
You don't know, you'll never know, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:10.000
Yeah.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:10.719
100%.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:26.239
Um, my last question would be if you had a room full of business owners, CEOs, HR people, what is one shift in mindset around trauma you would want them to make that would make everything better, easier?
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:31.280
I would again look at like your policy and practice.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:37.679
And are you have you thought about how you create emotionally safe workplaces for people?
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:46.800
Have you thought about how you how like communication happens in your organization, like power dynamics and all of those things?
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:52.559
And how how do you inter think about that in terms of being trauma informed?
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:07.119
And the other thing I would say to like CEOs or business leaders is how do you hold yourself accountable and uh transparent to your employees?
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:15.679
Because I think that also gives people a sense of connection to uh their employer and a sense of expectation.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:27.199
So if there is an expectation for all your employees around meeting certain standards, how do you make sure that they understand that you're also meeting those those standards?
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:32.719
And how do you listen to their voices in in a real authentic way?
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.440
And I think that's really important as well.
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.519
And obviously do training.
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:49.280
Like there's some fabulous, fabulous training around uh trauma because I think it's gonna be an ongoing, ever growing issue in this world that we're all living in right now.
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:49.679
Yeah.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.840
And I I don't I don't know if it's that actually there is more trauma.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:10.719
I think we just are in a place where people are more aware, but that's a good thing, because then we have the opportunity to create the spaces where we can help people with the trauma they're facing, as opposed to people feeling like they have to struggle on their own, or maybe never finding the way to get past whatever it is that they've have to handle.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.599
I sometimes hear people folks who go, Well, I've never really gone through anything, so I don't really understand.
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:23.599
Or I also get the flip side, which is well, I've been through trauma too, and I've managed to do X, Y, and Z, and so everybody else should also be able to get over it or do whatever they're doing.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.400
And I kind of think about both of those situations the same way you described, which is how did you get there?
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:31.920
Like you don't have to have gone through trauma to understand somebody else's.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.760
So how do I put that judgment aside and help them from a place of kindness?
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.320
Because it's easy to get stuck on, well, I've managed to, but that doesn't mean anything.
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:51.199
No, I think about somebody said to me a couple of years ago, two siblings grew up in a house where there was a lot of violence and a lot of substitute.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:42:07.920
And one sibling really struggled with their own substitute and housing homelessness, and the other one excelled, like master's degree, and both of them s would say, I'm in this place because of where I came from, even though they ended up like so we're all different.
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:19.119
Yeah, like some people will then be like, I will never be in that situation and will like superperform, and some people are so impacted that they will repeat it.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.039
Again, that's we're all unique human beings.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:27.280
Yes, and accepting the uniqueness of people means that you cannot compare yourself.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.639
I did a session for Enlo at the conference a week or so ago.
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.320
We were talking about resilience, and I said, no one on the world has your brain.
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.039
So comparing yourself to other people makes no sense.
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:45.360
Just because something stresses someone else or doesn't stress you, or stresses you and doesn't stress someone else, is frankly irrelevant because you are you and everybody does what you do.
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:47.280
So the question is what do you need to do for you?
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.360
And then wouldn't it be nice if we all could work on being more trauma aware and doing more of what we do with care?
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.800
And always an absolute pleasure to have a conversation with you.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:04.960
I always walk away feeling energized, and I just I love how practical and pragmatic you are about so many things that many people stress over or worry about.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:10.079
So thank you so much for coming on, sharing your experience, your wisdom, and just the joy of you with everybody.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.559
And I hope folks took a lot of nuggets out of this session.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:13.039
So thank you.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:16.000
Thank you so much for having me and my first podcast.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.320
So that's a wrap for today.
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.320
Thank you very much for joining in.
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:24.400
And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.679
You can find us on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.079
You can also check out our websites e3.ca and neuroworks.ca for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work.
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.000
So thanks again for joining in, and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.439
Historically, people would say, leave home life at home.
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We're human beings.
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We show up as our whole selves.
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So if something stressful is going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me to just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:23.039
I don't think that's realistic because we're not human beings who can slice ourselves off like that.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:31.120
And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:44.079
Hello everyone, I am Jess Chapman and this is Wired to Work, a podcast about how we make work actually work for where we are in today's world.
00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:53.759
I am very excited today to have the awesome Angela Cockwell here, as I refer to her, who is the executive director of Thrive here in St.
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John's in Newfoundland.
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And Thrive is an organization that helps or supports people navigating exploitation, criminalization, addiction, homelessness, and complex trauma every single day.
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I feel the conversation around trauma-informed world is bubbling, but I don't think a lot of people really understand what it means.
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I think sometimes people get stuck on the language we use around it.
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And I couldn't think of anyone better to make it sensible, straightforward, and pragmatic than Ange.
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So Ange, thank you for coming on and being with us today.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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So tell everybody a little bit about what you do first of all.
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Tell us about Thrive, kind of what your role is and what Thrive does.
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Yeah, so I'm the executive director here at Thrive, and we provide a variety of programs, services, and interventions for people who experience marginalization.
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And as you said in the introduction, many of our folks are struggling with housing, homelessness, substance use, mental health, mental illness.
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We work with people who've experienced human trafficking or sexual exploitation.
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And really what we're trying to do is create a caring community for people.
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And I will say there's a couple of threads that kind of run through regardless of what people's story is.
00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:03.519
Trauma is one of them.
00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:15.759
Like trauma is such a common thread, regardless of if you're if your issue is struggling with homelessness or mental health or addictions or criminal involvement.
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Trauma is a very, very common theme for the people we support.
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So we we use the word quite a lot, and I think it's quite a big word, and quite rightly so.
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But when we're often thinking about going to work every day and showing up in our nine-to-five environment, I don't know that the vast majority of us think overly much about how trauma might be there.
00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.280
So when we talk about trauma, what exactly are we talking about?
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And how might someone kind of make sense of that for their own day-to-day world?
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Yeah, so there's a couple of, I guess, different buckets that trauma might fall into.
00:02:48.159 --> 00:03:03.840
So like there could be a single incident that, you know, lots of us have experienced if we were involved in like a very traumatic like car accident, like that would be a traumatic, singular type of event that can have long-lasting implications for for people's wellness.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:16.479
And then there's like complex trauma that can be like a very repeated type of experience that people have that really, you know, like it starts to compound.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:28.879
So if I grew up in a house where there was violence, and then I experienced like some kind of abuse or neglect, and then I ended up in a relationship that was, again, violent.
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Like those are less like compounded trauma experiences that have, you know, it's a bit of a different impact on how people see and experience the world versus like that kind of singular event.
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But we always say, you know, if you think about there's a massive study, adverse childhood experiences.
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Most all of us have had adverse childhood experiences.
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So like trauma is also a very common experience for all of us as human beings.
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Yes, which is kind of sad.
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And it's interesting.
00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.759
So what what does trauma-informed actually mean?
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:03.599
And what does that mean for you in your world?
00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.280
And what might it mean for somebody who's just kind of gone to work in an insurance company every day?
00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:20.639
Yeah, so there's we talk about like there are people who are trauma aware, which means that there's this awareness of you're either working with, supervising, or providing services to people who have experiences of trauma.
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And so you have an awareness that people are bringing that into the workspace in some type of way.
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Um and that's fabulous.
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:56.480
Then there's trauma-informed, and is thinking about how you set up workplaces, policies, procedures, supervision, like layout of the space, and thinking about how all of those things should be informed by the fact that you are trying to create a space that is not going to re-traumatize, re-trigger, and create safety for people who have histories of trauma.
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And that is the that's the trauma-informed that we really try the strive to create a workplace that is truly trauma-informed of response of the people, because most of the people we support have experienced trauma, but this work can be traumatizing to our employees, and so there's an obligation for us to think about that as well.
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Yes.
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So you can't have it on two friends.
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So you're the people you serve and then the people who do the work.
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And that makes total sense to me for someone in your type of situation, because you you know the vast majority of people who are coming to you for services are likely to be in that place.
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And then what you said earlier is actually most of us have some form of adverse experience, which makes me think, well, then how far do we go with it?
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:51.439
So if I'm a regular kind of business owner, and I mean, not even necessarily me doing what I do with people, but let's say I run a sat hair salon or a, you know, I'm a dental assistant, am I playing in the trauma-aware end of the space?
00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:57.519
That we're kind of where do we start if we're trying to figure this out for something that doesn't work specifically in the kind of field that you work in?
00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:36.399
So I think trauma-informed is the universal thing, regardless of your working, obviously, for social service agencies such as us, but if you're working in the private market or like healthcare spaces, school spaces, I think regardless, as long as you're having interactions with human beings, then being trauma-informed is um is a really positive thing because it is such a broad experience that if we're providing services to clients like in a hair salon, for example, expect that people are gonna show up who have been impacted by trauma.
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But if you're hiring employees, expect that people are gonna show up who've been impacted by trauma.
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And so, how do we create work environments where people feel that there's safety and security for them and that they can do the best, their best work, and people can't do that if they're being uh triggered or feel unsafe.
00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:05.199
So it is really a win-win in terms of thinking of it from an employer perspective.
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If if we create really safe, healthy work spaces for our employees, then they tend to do better work, they tend to stay, less turnover, like all those things.
00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:24.160
So I do think trauma informed is a buzzword that lots of people were starting to recognize how trauma does impact people.
00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:37.839
And your example was really perfect around like this reaction, and it's like that's a trauma response because it's not equal to what actually was happening, but people bring all of that into the world every day.
00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.160
The world every day, exactly.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:46.800
Help people figure those things out, I just think creates a culture of wellness for everybody.
00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:53.519
I think a lot of it for me is the same, the same challenges that folks face generally when they think about people, right?
00:07:53.680 --> 00:08:08.000
So I think there is a general understanding in the world that if few people feel comfortable and safe, they're going to be a better version of themselves and they're likely going to want to do more for you and they feel comfortable and happy, which is great, and you get more because they're excited to be at work.
00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:24.720
But what we quite often see when it comes to things like whether inclusion and equity and diversity, whether it's um trauma related, there's this fear of getting it wrong, I think, that gets in the way for people, or this idea that, like, I don't know anything about that.
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:25.680
Like, I can't talk to people.
00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:38.320
Like I had a conversation with a client group where they've obviously been through like difficult conversations training, and their first response to everything that we had as a scenario was, well, maybe there's something happening at home, right?
00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:48.320
Like their their response to everything was there must be something going on with this person personally, and I can't go there because that's private, and I shouldn't have those conversations and I'm going to refer them to EFAP.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:56.559
Now, I will say there's nothing wrong with saying that and referring people to EFAP and everything else, but a lot of people, I think, avoid having conversations.
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Do people know when they come to Thrive?
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Like, does everyone know when they come to work at Thrive that that's what they're going to be doing?
00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.159
Like, how do you equip people for that type of conversation and that kind of support?
00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:22.000
Yeah, so when people come to work at Thrive, they know, given the population that we're working with, and writing the job descriptions, which you helped write for us, it says like high exposure to um traumatic stories and histories.
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So people have that awareness, but when they're in the middle of it, then it's like, oh, I didn't realize it was gonna be this, yeah.
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.360
Be this or this graphic or this much or this often.
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And so it is a bit of an ongoing process to help people process the work, debrief about the work, talk about what is triggering for them.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:53.279
So I again when I think about like the world of work, I mean, historically, you know, people would say, you know, leave per like leave home life at home.
00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:54.399
We're human beings.
00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.519
Like I I I I think that like kind of that thinking is is past to.
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Like we show up as our whole selves.
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:16.799
So if something is something really, you know, stressful's going on in my home life, it is really challenging for me that just put on a happy face and come into work and pretend like whatever's happening is not happening.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:21.759
I don't think that's realistic because we're not human beings who can slice ourselves off like that.
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:28.639
I do think as employers, there we don't need people to tell us the details.
00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:39.120
What we what we do want is for staff to show up and say, like, I may not be at my best today, like I'm struggling, I feel very stressed, I feel overwhelmed, whatever.
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:46.159
And again, I might need some extra support, or this may not be the best day for me to do A, B, or C.
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Like to feel safety in being able to communicate that and have some degree of accommodation for when people are having a really, really hard day, because people will show up and have a really, really hard day.
00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:07.279
And so I think it's about how do we create those spaces where people can be authentic and say that and feel like the workplace will support me in that.
00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:07.679
Yeah.
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I'm not going to lose my job or have a perfor bad performance review or get bad feedback from my boss if I come in and say, I'll go, I'm not, I'm not knocking out at the bar today, I'm not firing on all senators today, I need to do some quieter work and manage that accordingly, which is the whole point really of accommodation, right?
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:29.759
Yeah, and I I think it's about kindness and compassion and treating everybody with dignity and respect.
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And I will say is like sometimes people might think, oh, if we're being like extremely accommodating or like really thinking about how do we support employees or clients or whatever who have calm like who have trauma that we're lowering the expectation around performance.
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And I would say that is not the case.
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Like th I I feel like Thrive has created an unbelievably special environment here where we are very trauma-informed, where we think about the safety and accommodation for the people who do the like the employees, but also the people who come through.
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I also have a very high expectation that you are gonna do excellent work.
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We as an employer, we're gonna do everything within reason to create a space where you can do excellent work, and then you have each employee has a responsibility to do that work.
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And are there days or weeks when again something's happening that we're not all on our game?
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That's it, like of course we are.
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But if somebody is like, I really am struggling and I'm gonna be operating at 30%, that's the best I can ever give you.
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You're gonna have to go do figure figure out and do do work on your own to f you know, the kind of make sure like you can actually perform.
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So I don't think there is it is not an either-or is a both and.
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You can have very high expectations that employees will perform.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:16.879
And employees should also have high expectation that when they're doing given their best, their employer is thinking about their safety, their wellness, and they're working for an employer organization that really cares and takes care of them.
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I mean, and that makes a whole lot of sense, I think, and and I think for most people, I say most, because I'm not sure it's true that it's everyone, but I think most of us would recognize the desire to support people and then we all have dimes that were in and out.
00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:36.799
I think the challenge sometimes comes for folks when that person is not aware.
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Right.
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So I think when when somebody can come and have a conversation with you and say, I'm not having a great day, and then that's a lot easier because you can sit down and have a conversation with them and say, Okay, so what you know, you don't have to tell me all sorts happening, but what would make a difference to you, and we'll talk, you know, sensibly about how we can best help you.
00:13:52.799 --> 00:14:10.559
I think the challenge for most uh leaders is when either the person isn't aware of how they're showing up and that something is perhaps off for them in the way that they're doing it, or their expectations of the degree of support far outstrip what somebody can sensibly deliver for them.
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:12.480
And then I think it becomes a little bit trickier.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.320
So maybe we can tackle those two separately.
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:16.559
So what do we do then, Ange?
00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:23.279
Like what does like how do we because we aren't most leaders are not counselors, they're not therapists, they're not equipped for that type of situation.
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.440
So how do we best equip ourselves for the likelihood that that can and will happen?
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.519
But also what do we do if it does?
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:38.080
Yeah, so one of the things around creating like trauma-informed workspaces is around transparency and accountability.
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:52.879
And I think it's really important for employees to have a really good understanding around what is expected, what the feedback process looks like, what is the employer's responsibility, but also what is their responsibility.
00:14:53.120 --> 00:15:03.919
And so I think when you see people having um big reactions and are not self-aware, I would have very honest and frank conversations.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:13.840
And one of the feedback pieces that we get often here at Thrive is employees really appreciate the fact that we won't let anything just like fester.
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:26.639
If there's an issue, and again, I remember you saying this like years ago, if something is turning over in your mind, like repeatedly, or if you're thinking about something for more than 15 minutes, deal with it.
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:36.960
And so staff understand that if there's concerns, if something, program supervisor identifies something, it is going to be handled.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:44.320
It's gonna be handled very kindly, very respectfully, but it's gonna be like it's gonna be there's gonna be a conversation.
00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:57.360
If people do not under like don't don't have that self-awareness and the the issue is repeatedly being brought up in the work is impacting other people, then we have to deal with that.
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:02.240
Like it is important, like I said, it's not a it's not a either or.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:16.639
We can create spaces where we can provide like accommodation and safety and all of that, but we are all also individually responsible for participating and creating that safe work environment.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:23.840
So if I'm a toxic person in a in a workplace, then that absolutely needs to be addressed.
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:30.399
And if employers find ways to create spaces where people can work on that and do better, 100%.
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.759
But people are have to do their own work.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:35.600
We're not counseling people either.
00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:37.360
That is not the role of an employer.
00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:52.000
And when people need that outside professional help, that is their responsibility to go get that so that they can come to work and do the work that is expected of them because there's lots of people counting on people to be able to do good work.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.279
Yes, I love and I do, I think so.
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.480
I love that you remember the 15-minute rule, because I talk about that a lot.
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:08.079
Folks, we have a rule in E3 world and Jess's world we've had for a long time, which is if you find yourself stewing on something that's gone on for more than 15 minutes, you have two options.
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.440
You can let it go or you can have a conversation with the person about it.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.839
But if you let it go, that means you totally let it go.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:20.160
Not that you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it, not that you talk to somebody else about it, or about that person, or what happened behind the other person's back.
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.759
Like it's literally, I'm deciding this doesn't matter and I'm fully letting it go.
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:26.240
And if you can't, then you need to go have a conversation with the person about it.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:42.000
And it's a very simple rule, but actually one a couple of our clients adopted as grandwords in their organization because they had a lot of conflict that no one was talking about, and people were mad at each other and not saying they were mad at each other, and then things fester, and we know from a brain perspective what you're focused on, you get more of.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:44.559
So if things are festering, they actually get bigger, right?
00:17:44.720 --> 00:18:09.920
But that that pragmatism, again, there is annual pragmatism around it's not our responsibility as employees to counsel people, it's our responsibility to help them understand where they are at and whether what they're doing is appropriate for the workplace that we have designed or not, and to discuss with them how we best support them in finding the help they need to move forwards, but it is not our responsibility to to provide that help necessarily.
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:10.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:26.000
And I think sometimes, I mean, obviously the world we're working in where there is high exposure to trauma stories, there's also high exposure to, you know, watching people suffer and like loss and grief and all of that.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:36.480
And so for some people, if they come with a lot of trauma and this is like just trigger and trigger and triggering, it is also helping people realize this may not be for you.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:45.599
So it's I think there's a responsibility as well, or I feel a responsibility as an employer is to help people also figure out this is not the best place for you.
00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.880
You are not going to do your best work in this environment.
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:50.880
And that's not a personal failing.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:19:01.359
There's there's a space and place for everybody, like I would do really in like highly structured environments with policy, you know, that would not I wouldn't work well in that.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:06.720
And so, like, that's not a personal failing on mine, but it's is also trying to help people find that match.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:18.960
So if people are showing up the work and really struggling consistently, then it's also like, can we have a conversation around is this the right place or work or whatever for you?
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.960
Because we spend so much of our time, obviously, at work.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:28.480
We want people to find value in that and fulfilled in that.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:29.279
That's important.
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:33.599
And do and do the work and be connected to the work, but not to the detriment of themselves.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.440
So the ability to say, I need boundaries of my own.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.440
Now, actually, that's an interesting thing.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:47.119
So I've had lots of conversations in the last probably six weeks, not sure why in the last six weeks, but in the last six weeks, around boundaries.
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:57.680
And folks that struggle either because they're extremely kind people and they don't know when to stop, or because they just don't know where the line should be.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:04.000
Like they're either in new leadership roles and they're like, I like I don't know where the line is between friend and leader and all those types of things.
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:09.440
Then I would imagine, and from my experience working with Thrive, boundaries in your world are crucial.
00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.440
They are not uh nice to have, it is not something you can figure out as you go.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.599
So, how do you what advice do you have for folks who might struggle with setting boundaries?
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.680
Are there things that you have learned that other people could apply?
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.920
Yeah, we have so many conversations around boundaries and ethics.
00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:29.599
And I think, again, so critical in terms of trauma-informed practice.
00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.920
People, again, people need to know where those boundaries are.
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:35.599
It is what keeps people safe.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:45.279
And for people who have histories of trauma, one of the things that has often happened to them is people have crossed people's other people's personal boundaries.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:52.079
And so it is actually ethical to have very strong and clear boundaries.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:58.079
And sometimes people feel like, again, these are my friends or like coworkers.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.440
I'm responsible for you because you work for me as all those things.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:02.720
All of those things.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:10.000
So I feel like being very clear around boundaries is is part of that trauma informed.
00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:20.799
I understand as an executive director, there is a power that like I have in this role that other people in this organization do not have.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:31.599
And so thinking about the right use of power, I f I feel, you know, like on lots of days I am doing the same thing as staff.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.000
Like I will bring out the recycling to the curb.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:41.920
I will like, you know, I don't operate as a power position in the organization, but I recognize the power that I have.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:48.640
And it's really important for me to have very clear boundaries and not, I'm not your friend.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.440
Um, you know, often we'll say, I we will be friendly, but we are not friends.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:01.200
Friends are somebody you can call at twelve o'clock on a Friday night and say, I'm in trouble.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:02.319
Can you come help?
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:04.400
And you can't call me.
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.480
And co-workers shouldn't be doing that.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:13.039
So I do think it's about thinking about this is a work situation, and we can care about people.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.559
And often people do find their friends at work.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:26.319
But when you're at work, there is a there is a coworker, there is a client, there is an employer, employer, employee um boundary.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.720
And to keep everybody safe and healthy, you actually need to operate within those parameters.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:38.160
Because once it all starts to get blurred, it becomes confusing for people.
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.799
Again, for people with strong histories of trauma, it can actually feel really unsafe.
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.039
Because why is my boss being my friend?
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:54.720
Like that doesn't for people who've had their boundaries crossed, that actually often may not sit well.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.559
Like this is not what a typical relationship would be.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:05.599
So I think it's important to think about strong boundaries as actually strong ethical work behavior.
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:19.599
I think that that's a that's also a really important lens because I also think sometimes people, including myself, don't always pause to think about what is it I'm about to do here and what is the long-term implication of what I'm about to do.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:30.480
And I say that from an all manner of HR things, actually, whether it's like Bobby's asked for a pay increase and I say yes because I really like Bobby, or whether it's somebody asking me to come bail them out.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.680
But actually, it could be really damaging for that person if you then have to take that help away, right?
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.880
If they're going to exceed what you are capable of doing for them because they aren't your friend and they aren't your family member.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:57.200
And so you've helped them once, but now they have a misconception you're gonna help them every time, and then you then have to retract that help, you might actually be doing more damage there than you intended to in the first place.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:03.119
So I don't know that we necessarily ponder what happens from here if I do A, right?
00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.599
I'm just I'm just gonna be helpful, not what happens about that.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.799
So I think that's a really, really useful frame for people and probably what not one most people would think about.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:17.440
What happens from your perspective if the expectation of support is out of whack?
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:43.279
So we have I have come across examples throughout my career where an individual was obviously going through challenges, was forthright about the challenges, which is really helpful, but then their expectation of the level of the accommodation that the organization or leader could provide was really not realistic for the circumstances and was often tied to things like, well, you're the business owner and so you've clearly got lots of money and you can afford to do X as opposed to recognizing the financial reality of things.
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:52.960
So, any advice for how you support somebody that isn't delivering the way they need to, but feels like you should be giving them more rather than finding that balance?
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:58.480
Yeah, I think again, um that open and honest communication.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:08.400
I I know obviously I've talked to lots of lawyers over the years that like what is reasonable accommodation and a lawyer would help you kind of figure and haggle that out.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:21.200
But again, I think it's about um as an employer, employees having an understanding that again, I will speak from the staff at Thrive.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.359
I want them to feel like this organization has their back.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:38.960
We will try to do everything within our capacity and our resources to make sure people feel supported, that they are actually being paid and have access to the best benefits that we can afford.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.720
So hopefully, like that idea gets removed off the table.
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:49.119
People understand we are taking care of people to our maximum capacity within the resources that we have.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:52.000
And then there's a very clear job description.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.759
And in return for that, here is what we expect of you.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:07.839
And so when people fall below that and need a level of accommodation that is not reasonable, then you're stepping outside of that like kind of two-way.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:14.480
And so, you know, for us, we exist to provide services to vulnerable people.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:21.279
And so if we have an employee who is unable to do that well, that's a that's an issue.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.759
And so they have a couple of options.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
Like, I might need to take some time off and go figure that out.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:34.720
For us, that would be a reasonable accommodation, unless it's the fifth time that they've asked to take some time off to go figure that out.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:42.240
But if people are like, I have a plan how to make this right so I can actually do what's expected of me, excellent.
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:48.480
But I think it's having that clear expectation and being able to say, like, here's what reasonable is.
00:26:49.119 --> 00:27:07.119
And so again, we live in the world of social services, but if it is sales and like I'm really struggling, and so I actually don't want to be able to have communications with people, really hard to do a sales job, or like that's not reasonable.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.519
So then as saying to the person, What do you need to do?
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:21.920
Because it is their life, it is their challenge, and while we create an environment, people are ultimately have to do the work.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.279
Like, you know, because we support vulnerable people.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:33.200
I always say the staff when they start, like, I get very concerned with people who are like, I'm gonna save people, or I'm gonna fix people, or I'm gonna change people.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:34.640
We're like, no, you're not.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:43.279
You're gonna be helpful, you're gonna get create a space where hopefully people can have enough safety to think about what they need next.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.839
And we can walk alongside people, but we can't fix or change people.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:55.920
And the same as from an employer's perspective, like when we see somebody who is really struggling, can we create a safe environment?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.079
Can we have kind conversations?
00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:58.559
100%.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.640
Can you make the person well or better or what?
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.000
No, you cannot.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:07.279
I think you can have very clear expectations.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.519
And one of the things that I think we've done well is we're very clear on what our values are.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:19.839
So when people start doing stuff like we can say, how does that align with this is our values?
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.160
And you signed on to an organization that lives right.
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:33.200
Again, that was going to be a and one like one of the very basic ones, it always surprises me when I hear adults talking about other workplaces.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.920
I say to every new staff, I have zero talent for workplace gossip.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.720
It is a cancer in an organization.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.359
And so if you have a concern or a complaint, 100% legit, address it.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.240
Or as you said, let it go.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:56.640
But if you're just like talking and gossiping about other people for the sake of that's that's an on-starter.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:06.400
That will not be acceptable in this organization because it that is cancerous and it festers and it creates unsafety for everybody.
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:13.200
Yeah, and and so so much of what you're talking about comes back to that underlying premise of care and safety, right?
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:20.799
Like if I'm gonna have that difficult conversation with someone, no matter what the conversation is, and we we know this is true in the brain world, right?
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:24.559
So like relatedness and belonging are fundamental human needs.
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:37.839
The more connected I feel to you, the more I feel like I belong in a place, the easier it is for you to hold a mirror up to me to whatever I need feedback on, and I'm less likely to have a strong remotional reaction, or the emotional reaction I have will be will be less high.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:42.799
And I think it's that piece about where your priority lies in the conversation.
00:29:42.960 --> 00:30:01.039
And for leaders in organizations, I think sometimes they get stuck between the human piece of wanting to give the time to the people and have the conversations and maybe lacking some of the skill, and then feeling the pressure of the organization that they've got to turn the wheel and make the money and it's got to be productive and everything's gonna be good, and they kind of get caught in that in between.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:14.000
And yet, realistically, going right back to what you said at the beginning, which I completely love and agree with, the more safe people feel, the more careful they feel, the more they will be connected, the better it is for everybody.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.519
And if you're a money person, the better your results are at the end of the day as well.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.640
Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:34.319
And I think in terms of this current climate that we're all operating in, regardless of what type of industry you are, again, if you're in some type of front-facing where you have clients, people, people are highly stressed.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:43.599
And so we've seen people talk about increases in workplace violence, uh, like in healthcare settings, in school settings.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.000
I would imagine if you're in customer service.
00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:56.960
Like the number of people who are coming in who are unbelievably stressed and maybe lashing out at service, like like it's becoming more and more common.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:05.440
So I do think like this this is timely for people to think about in terms of how do they support employees?
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:13.359
Because we're everybody is seemingly more and more subjected to things that can be very distressing to them.
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.759
And it's important for people to think about that and not make it worse.
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:31.279
From your perspective, are there things that perhaps you do at Thrive or things you've seen other people do that helps continue to build people's skills in this space, continue the awareness journey, make sure it's not something we just do like twice a year when we do our compliance training?
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.960
Like, how do we actually get better at this?
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:40.160
I think helping people think about what might have been behind that experience.
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:54.480
So, you know, if somebody comes in here and gets very elevated and lashes out or says something that might be hurtful or harmful, helping people think about, oh well, like that might have been a trauma response.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.519
Like, what was that?
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:02.640
The same as if say in a call center, like somebody lashes out and is unkind to somebody.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:14.480
I think sometimes it is helpful for people as opposed to just understanding I was on a phone call and somebody said something that was really hurtful or harmful, or they started screaming at me.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:15.759
It's not about you.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:24.880
Like it really probably they might have been on hold for, you know, 25 minutes and had a screaming youngster at their foot.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:36.960
And like we don't know what's going on for other people, and I'm not suggesting that we excuse bad behavior, but it's helpful for people if they can think about a it's not personal.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:43.039
Like they actually weren't lashing out at you necessarily unless you were, you know, doing something.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.359
But 90% of the time, it's not personal.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.880
It is you might have been the last straw for people.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:33:01.359
And I think sometimes that's helpful for people and to think about empathy for the person who is actually being unkind to them and think they probably are having a rough day, a really bad day.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:09.359
Like sometimes I see people in traffic and I think when they lose it, I'm thinking myself, you are hanging by a thread.
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:16.960
If the fact that like somebody cut you off and you like you are really having a bad day, like you're just hanging in there, right?
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:34.079
So trying to help people frame that because as we have a responsibility to do customer care or customer service, it is not realistic for us to then be like all of our customers or all of our clients have to be lovely and engaging and kind.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.000
Like that's like that's not gonna happen.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.039
It's not gonna happen.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.240
Like it would be wonderful.
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:41.440
It's not gonna happen.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:47.279
So when that doesn't happen, validate that that was that was tough, but that is the work also.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:57.200
We've again we say like sometimes people will say this work is unbelievably stressful and it's a lot and it's chaotic and we're yeah, it is.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.519
Yeah, and it's okay to support you.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.440
To also choose to opt out and go else do something else.
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:03.759
Yeah.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.920
But this is yeah, this is what you signed up for.
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:06.640
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:08.159
No, I think that I think that's okay.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:09.760
I've been chewing for a while.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.920
I need to get a t-shirt that says it's not about you.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:24.000
Um, because the in that internalization, and it took me it took me a while, like I'm older now, but I would say Jess in her twenties would have absolutely insumed negative intent, right?
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.679
Now, some of that might be trauma ages, some of that must have been me and my brain, but um and and then you make it something, right?
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.239
So somebody being mean means something about you.
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:40.480
They don't like you, they're an artist personal, it becomes much bigger than it is, when to your point, very likely you're just the last straw in the situation.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:49.599
Like often when I have to have conversations with people, I was talking to somebody about this, and they're like, Well, how when someone's like hard to you or negative to you, do you not bite back, right?
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.360
Because then it's likely to make it worse.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:53.519
And I said, I should do a visualization thing.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:08.079
If I know I'm going into an environment where I may be having a situation with somebody who's likely to be elevated or likely to be very unhappy, and I am the bearer of the news, and therefore I am the face in front of them, and you can fully expect that, therefore, I am the representative of the thing that's hurting them.
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:11.119
Um, I imagine zipping myself into an imaginary hazmat suit, right?
00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:18.000
And so then like the emotions that I'm getting are just bouncing off the suit, and then I don't need to react to those because it's not about me.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.159
I am here as the face of something that is a threat to them, and they're having a threat response to that.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.559
And my job is to try and help them with that as best as they can manage in that moment.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:34.400
But to your point, they're also an adult, and I don't have to go beyond what is a sensible, reasonable level of support for that person in that particular moment.
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:35.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:52.320
And if there are ways in those really hard to like if you're dismissing somebody or if you're there's ways that you give people some semblance of choice or control, like I'll try to find it, like how would you like stuff communicated?
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.480
How would you like to leave the building?
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:09.920
How would you like like those are small things and probably in those moments they like again they want to scream at at you, but like again, whatever you do, trying to do it in a way that is giving people as much dignity and respect as you possibly can.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.920
Because all of us, most of us, are doing the best that we can.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:19.840
And sometimes it may not be enough for a workplace situation, and that's okay.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.960
But I still think if we can find those ways to do that, that's really the trauma-informed.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:37.840
It doesn't mean that we have to accommodate every issue or every need, but at the end of the day, we have understood that people bring all kinds of stuff to the table.
00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:46.480
We've thought about it, we've designed for it, and we've created the best work environment we can, and then as the employees to be able to work within those parameters.
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:57.280
Yes, and we hold the mirror up with care and say we value and and I and I think that's also a nugget I would probably add in around remembering to distinguish between people and their behavior.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:57.760
Right.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:05.280
So we sometimes uh actually had a really great conversation with someone who used the phrase, I would put it a slightly different one, but he said there's no bad people, there's only bad situations.
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.800
But that distinction between everybody is doing the best they can.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:19.440
This person may not be doing anything I like right now and be doing things that are wholly unhelpful, aggressive, negative, whatever, but that does not mean that that is them every second of the day.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:30.480
And we tend to assume that people are their worst opinion, their worst behavior, when in fact that is not at all the case, and you will largely have more in common with people than you think you do if you spend some time with them.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:36.320
And if we can start to think about, like if you think about it the other way, the people you love don't always behave the way you want, right?
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.760
So, but we don't stop loving them.
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:41.920
So just because somebody shows up and gives you the behavior you don't like doesn't mean you don't have to like them forever, right?
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:42.960
There's not the same thing.
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:45.360
Yeah.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:59.840
And I we'll often talk about just curiosity, like as opposed to being judgmental, if we can be curious as human beings, like if we see something and you're like, hmm, I wonder what I wonder where that came from.
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:00.719
What's that about?
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:11.119
Or again, sometimes when you hear people say like truly awful things, as if we, you know, in this world we're living in right now, we can hear almost on an hourly basis.
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:11.679
Yes.
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:16.320
I'm always curious, like, huh, what did we get there?
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.079
Yeah, like what what what's happening that you got there?
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.519
You probably didn't land there by accident.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:24.400
No, right?
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:30.000
It doesn't mean you have to accept, but no, and it but it also doesn't mean people will necessarily stay there either, right?
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:40.239
So we're a function of our experiences, we're sp we're a function of the perceptions that we are around the lot of the time, what we grew up with, what the people we surround ourselves with think.
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:44.960
Um so you know, the the wonderful thing about people, neuroplasticity is real.
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:48.159
We can change how we think, how we move, what we do.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:39:06.719
You have no idea if how you showed up in that one conversation with that person who's having a terrible day, if the kindness that you showed them or the boundary that you set for them, or the way that you approached them recognizing that it's not about you actually shifted something in their thinking and they walked away from that conversation and you helped them make a fundamental change.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.199
You don't know, you'll never know, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:10.000
Yeah.
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:10.719
100%.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:26.239
Um, my last question would be if you had a room full of business owners, CEOs, HR people, what is one shift in mindset around trauma you would want them to make that would make everything better, easier?
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:31.280
I would again look at like your policy and practice.
00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:37.679
And are you have you thought about how you create emotionally safe workplaces for people?
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:46.800
Have you thought about how you how like communication happens in your organization, like power dynamics and all of those things?
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:52.559
And how how do you inter think about that in terms of being trauma informed?
00:39:52.719 --> 00:40:07.119
And the other thing I would say to like CEOs or business leaders is how do you hold yourself accountable and uh transparent to your employees?
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:15.679
Because I think that also gives people a sense of connection to uh their employer and a sense of expectation.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:27.199
So if there is an expectation for all your employees around meeting certain standards, how do you make sure that they understand that you're also meeting those those standards?
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:32.719
And how do you listen to their voices in in a real authentic way?
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.440
And I think that's really important as well.
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.519
And obviously do training.
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:49.280
Like there's some fabulous, fabulous training around uh trauma because I think it's gonna be an ongoing, ever growing issue in this world that we're all living in right now.
00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:49.679
Yeah.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.840
And I I don't I don't know if it's that actually there is more trauma.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:10.719
I think we just are in a place where people are more aware, but that's a good thing, because then we have the opportunity to create the spaces where we can help people with the trauma they're facing, as opposed to people feeling like they have to struggle on their own, or maybe never finding the way to get past whatever it is that they've have to handle.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.599
I sometimes hear people folks who go, Well, I've never really gone through anything, so I don't really understand.
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:23.599
Or I also get the flip side, which is well, I've been through trauma too, and I've managed to do X, Y, and Z, and so everybody else should also be able to get over it or do whatever they're doing.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.400
And I kind of think about both of those situations the same way you described, which is how did you get there?
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:31.920
Like you don't have to have gone through trauma to understand somebody else's.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:37.760
So how do I put that judgment aside and help them from a place of kindness?
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:42.320
Because it's easy to get stuck on, well, I've managed to, but that doesn't mean anything.
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:51.199
No, I think about somebody said to me a couple of years ago, two siblings grew up in a house where there was a lot of violence and a lot of substitute.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:42:07.920
And one sibling really struggled with their own substitute and housing homelessness, and the other one excelled, like master's degree, and both of them s would say, I'm in this place because of where I came from, even though they ended up like so we're all different.
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:19.119
Yeah, like some people will then be like, I will never be in that situation and will like superperform, and some people are so impacted that they will repeat it.
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.039
Again, that's we're all unique human beings.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:27.280
Yes, and accepting the uniqueness of people means that you cannot compare yourself.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.639
I did a session for Enlo at the conference a week or so ago.
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.320
We were talking about resilience, and I said, no one on the world has your brain.
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.039
So comparing yourself to other people makes no sense.
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:45.360
Just because something stresses someone else or doesn't stress you, or stresses you and doesn't stress someone else, is frankly irrelevant because you are you and everybody does what you do.
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:47.280
So the question is what do you need to do for you?
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:53.360
And then wouldn't it be nice if we all could work on being more trauma aware and doing more of what we do with care?
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.800
And always an absolute pleasure to have a conversation with you.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:04.960
I always walk away feeling energized, and I just I love how practical and pragmatic you are about so many things that many people stress over or worry about.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:10.079
So thank you so much for coming on, sharing your experience, your wisdom, and just the joy of you with everybody.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.559
And I hope folks took a lot of nuggets out of this session.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:13.039
So thank you.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:16.000
Thank you so much for having me and my first podcast.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:18.320
So that's a wrap for today.
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.320
Thank you very much for joining in.
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:24.400
And if you liked our conversation today, please do like and subscribe.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:27.679
You can find us on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:36.079
You can also check out our websites e3.ca and neuroworks.ca for more information about what we do in the wonderful world of work.
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:40.000
So thanks again for joining in, and I look forward to seeing you on another episode.
