Hey guys, welcome back to the Why Wars Happened History podcast, where you learn about the causes of wars and things like, why did it happen? Was it inevitable? Who was involved? Sometimes I go back hundreds of years just so we can understand what happened. And if you want to talk more about war, we also have authors, historians, war generals, royalty, actors, filmmakers, a whole bunch of people come on as guests.
And we talk about everything about before, during, and after war. So let's go!
Welcome to
the
Why Wars
Happened
podcast where we have narrated war history episodes, and we also
have episodes where we sit down with filmmakers, authors,
politicians, and
historians, and we talk about wars in history.
Today's
guest
am very
excited about this. So today's guest is Michael Jones, a military historian,
Tour
guide, and an author of several incredible [00:01:00] books, uh, everything
pretty much
ranging.
from medieval battles to World War ii. He's written about,
and he's the author
of today's book,
Bosworth 1485,
the Battle that Transformed England.
Michael,
thank you so much for joining us today.
A big, big pleasure.
Yes.
so
as
I was kinda saying a little bit before, uh, we got started here. I
am
so excited to talk about Bosworth.
It's one of those like niche, like
If you love
Tudor,
you've probably
heard of
the battle.
of Bosworth.
But, uh, yeah. So if you love Tudors, listen to this episode, you're gonna love it. Um,
I would like to ask you for just a brief overview of
what
the Battle of Bosworth was and why it was so important.
Yeah, sure. So the Battle of Bosworth was fought on the 22nd of August, 1485, and just to keep it simple, it marked the end of the Wars of the Roses. That's a period of 30 years [00:02:00] or so of Civil War, and it also marked the beginning of the Tudor Dynasty because the winner at Bosworth, Henry Tudor becomes.
Henry III and his opponent, the reigning King Richard III, is killed in battle. So it really is pivotal moment in terms of our history
Yes, the beginning of the Tudors, everybody's favorite. I used to ask people on the show like
way back in the day. Uh, you know
what
their.
favorite period of time was if they could try and travel to whatever they focused on their area of study or the Tudor era. Everyone was like, Tudors, Tudors, Tudors.
It didn't matter what kind of historian.
they were.
So,
Uh,
very
popular. Um, and
and
so this is like the craziest
thing
there.
I
don't wanna give away like too much 'cause people really should read this book. It's a really cool book. But
can you just give us a little
[00:03:00] tease or a
little hint of
like 500 years we thought that Oh.
the battle took place over here, but you're like, Hmm, actually.
Well, that we have a wonderful in, in Leicestershire. We have a wonderful Battlefield center for Bosworth.
Hmm.
it is in the wrong place. It was,
Oh God.
it was put up in, in the late 1970s, the county council bought some farmland and at the time. It was on a hill called Ambien Hill. And in, if we consider the of history, which culminates of course, with William Shakespeare,
Mm-hmm.
The battle takes place by the time we get to Shakespeare and Shakespeare's Rich III on Ambien Hill. And that was our first narrative. So if you visited
Sure.
the, what was described as the battlefield in say, [00:04:00] 1980, uh, everything was arranged around this quite small hill.
Hmm.
the whole battle story was based on that.
But over a period of time, a lot of questions have been asked about that narrative. And more
Yeah.
there was a debate, and my, my book when it first came out was part of that debate, um, lottery heritage, funding, archeology. And now we know a lot more and we know,
Yeah.
we know segments of the battle. So we know that the battle took place.
Further south, Southwest, about a mile and a half southwest of where the Battlefield Center is, uh, along a Roman road. And the most exciting thing is that through archeology, uh, to some extent, place, name, evidence, but really archeology, we can lo locate with some degree of certainty where Richard actually died [00:05:00]
Oh
to,
yes.
you know, I, I take people on battlefield tours and we.
We look through a gap in the hedge, and
Oh.
I, I, I point over in the direction of the, of the field and I, I say towards the next hedge. That was where Richard was probably crying out for his horse.
Uh, that is so.
so that's pretty neat, isn't it?
Yes. That is amazing, man. I wish I were over in England. I could do that.
Um,
gosh,
that is really cool. Yes, yes. I
am planning on going over there. Hopefully in the
next
year if I
do like, I'm going to hit you up and be like, take me on this tour. I want to do this. Um,
that, okay. So
Shakespeare,
good old Shakespeare, gave us a lot of our language,
but also,
gave us a lot of, uh. Misunderstandings about events, let's say in Kings.
um, so that line, the, the my, the famous [00:06:00] line, my kingdom.
for a horse. And that didn't really go down that way,
uh, from what we know.
well, um, interestingly, may, there may be some truth in that to the extent
ooh.
that, possibly between, possibly, and probably Richard was Unhorsed. Uh, he led a charge to try and kill his opponent and that charge went wrong.
Yeah.
then. He was driven away. there's a very interesting source, uh, that shows Recept Thomas, who was one of Henry Tudor's Welsh followers fighting Richard.
And, um, Richard's horse is rearing up. And you could see the detail is very interesting. The horseshoe has come off, so I, I don't discount the horse completely, but. But [00:07:00] interesting is that Shakespeare is the culmination of Tudor legend, and Shakespeare
Hmm.
needed to keep. Elizabeth, I, the whole ju to Dynasty on
Yeah.
and the portrayal is basically, it's, um, it's the judgment story that the, the way the Tudors increasingly made sense of the battle was it was divine punishment on nasty Rich ii
Sure. Yeah,
was
yeah,
a whole mass of.
Awful crimes. I'm sure you're
yeah.
one or two of them.
Yes. Is.
And as a result, has betrayed others. So now on the field of battle, he'll be betrayed himself. And really, in my book, absolutely. You know, no mercy
Yeah.
I wanted to. It's kind, this is kind of history told by the winners and I, I was
Mm-hmm.
in my book to sort of do history [00:08:00] to what might have been told by the losers if they'd had a
Yes.
So rather than nervous, Richard, I. fiddling with his ring and his dagger and having all these nightmares, not even able to have breakfast in the morning, poor guy, uh, and be very much on the defensive, very much reacting to events beyond his control. I
Yeah.
portray a dynamic leader with a mission, uh, a sense of.
Uh, rightly or wrongly, there's a lot of historical debate, but for him, what I put out was he had a strong sense of the legitimate legitimacy of his cause, and the
Hmm.
his army, which was between two and three times larger than Henry TDIs felt the same way. it's kind of, my story was turning Shakespeare on its head.
[00:09:00] Yes, I
loved it.
and,
and I. Okay. Yes.
Yes. I
love that idea of,
okay,
well what does the other side
have to
say?
about this is,
And especially
Tudors, and I
this up on the show
a
few times where
I actually use the Tudors
an example,
of medieval propaganda because they're just
so, um.
oh, the word escapes me.
They're just so. The epitome of medieval propaganda, uh,
where it's like literally a king's
set to
work his chronicler. Like, make this guy look as bad as you can and make me look as
legitimate.
as you can.
You can.
Um,
You're on
yeah.
it, Emily. I love it.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we definitely have this, like, you get this almost like chill in your bones when you hear Richard ii,
You know, uh,
and so
I do wanna
bring
that up a little bit, but first I wanted to ask about.
so the Battle of Bosworth itself. We
have all these [00:10:00] different
pieces going where we have a,
larger army and a smaller army, and then
we have
Lord Stanley
kind of hanging back,
watching
like, oh, I told Richard
I would be there, but who's really gonna win?
And that's when I'll charge in and help.
how
close
was this?
battle to going a different way? Let's say forget Lord Stanley. Forget him charging in.
Okay, we can come back to the standards in a while.
Yes.
the, give you an idea of how close it was, so Richard and a force of maybe some 200 Mountain Knights charged straight at Henry Tudor.
Hmm.
Richard gets close enough to Henry Tudor to his standard bearer, um, William Brandon. So
Yeah.
that's within feet of finishing the battle with a win.
Yeah.
And then,
So close[00:11:00]
uh, we are told by sources and including Paula, do Virgil, who almost certainly spoke to people who were there, that at this point, you know, it's absolutely on a knife edge. And another large night John Cheney rides in the way blocking Richard's roots are killing Henry Tudor. So it's, it's a matter of feet and it's a matter
Oh,
from going the
oh.
That's how close it is.
Can you imagine? Oh, I can't, I
don't even know what history would even
look, look
like.
That is just,
It
uh.
very different.
Very different. Like we wouldn't, we, I don't even know if we'd have the stewards because
No Tudors. No Tudors.
So
would
James was, Yeah,
Okay.
so
and if
that didn't happen. How would the colonization of America have happened? Like it just,
I
don't even know what history
would
look like,
So
that is just
Wild to think about feet like it happened
so
long ago, but I get the like goosebumps like, no,[00:12:00]
Yeah.
it's so funny. History
Seems alive.
Um,
So
yeah.
so we're talking like,
so Stanley,
was that really true that he,
hung
back and he is like
watching
the battle.
you know, or is that
Kind of,
romanticized like.
so if you imagine a sports fixture, I, I dunno what kind of sports you're into, where you've
None.
okay, let's, let's kept that one simple.
Yeah.
imagine the two teams. And then a group of spectators who, who reasonably skilled, who could join the fixture at any stage.
That's what we've got. We've got Richard II's Army, and then we've got Henry Tudor's Army, and then we have a third Army. I. Under the Stanleys. Now my own view is the commander is Sir William Stanley. That's Lord Stanley's younger brother. And this, this is what the [00:13:00] Stanleys have done. This, they did this right at the beginning of the wars.
The Roses. William Stanley goes off joins one side, Lord Stanley. Uh, attempts to join the other side, but all manner of excuses like, oh, my leg, I, I'm on my
Hmm.
Uh, I, I think
Be there in five minutes.
10 minutes, sorry. Traffic's really bad.
Yeah.
gr gridlock. And, and, and they, they're doing this, you know, they're doing this back in, um, 1459, right at the beginning of the wars, the roses at one
Hmm.
Heath.
I think they're doing exactly the same thing, and. Lord Stanley, this is a solemn oath. Uh, he says, the first time I actually saw I met Henry Tudor was on the 24th of
Hmm.
two days after the battle. So I think we're dealing with Sir William, and actually William gets written out of the Chronicles because
Yeah.
[00:14:00] later on he.
Rebels against Henry VIII and is executed.
Hmm.
Thomas Lord Stanley is put in this place. So that's a bit complicated, but basically he's
Okay. Yeah.
of those photographs where one of the people is sort of taken out. So my candidate for this army spectating is that it was the, um, younger brother, sir William.
But anyway, we'll
Mm
them the Stanler. Uh.
The Stanley's, yeah.
so, so you've got these three armies and what I think Richards decides to do, the Vanguards engage and then Richard sees an opportunity, he has a clear view of Henry Tudor. I. Much smaller army. There's, there's no central force with Henry Tudor. It's a large vanguard, and then it's just
Hmm.
and, and Richard decides, I'm gonna take this guy out.
So he charges so that. That's what I think was going [00:15:00] on.
Mm-hmm.
uh, as I say, it came very close to success, but it was also very risky because if something went wrong and something did go wrong, the the Stanley Force can intervene. So I. So
Yes.
a very bold, uh, and uh, I, I'm using positive words, but but also very risky.
Yeah. Yeah.
you
That's very nice of you
you get a flavor of that. So, yeah, I, I don't want to complicate. Things too much with the, the standards because I, I, I'll tell you, there's people at the time had no idea what their family was up to. So if
Yeah.
feeling confused, you can join the 15th Century club. know, there's
That's perfect.
years earlier when, when Richard has just taken the throne. So there's an earlier rebellion called Buckingham's Rebellion. Uh, one, there's a Stanley force moving around in in Lancashire and, and one writer says there's a Stanley [00:16:00] force moving around, but what they're up to, I am the faintest idea. And I think that kind of sums it up with that look
I
love.
it. Love it. So we can all feel, we can all rest easy.
We're not supposed to.
understand everything.
About this. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Well that's, that's,
pretty cool. And,
and
for
fans of,
uh,
I'm gonna bring it up,
I'm gonna bring it
up. Fans of game of Thrones. Uh, and fans of Tudors will
see the Connection.
or, or have seen the connection.
It's almost comical
how much, uh,
the.
wars of the roses and all the characters and the events and everything are actually in Game of Thrones. Where you have, you
People are going, oh, sir William,
the Lord
Stanley is like, okay, Stanis,
Uh, you know, and then you have
the
s
Lannister
in Game of Thrones are the Lancasters. Right, and
the Starks are the Yorks, and
then, uh, you have the entire map of Game of Thrones, the whole.
like land [00:17:00] world is really just Britain turned on its side. If you turn Britain on its side, that's the map
I,
for that world.
people have really gone to town on this because, uh, undoubtedly the, the wars of the roses was an influence, but at the
Yes.
it's kind of taken on the life of its own. Uh,
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
That, that.
but I, I, I think the way Game of Thrones begins with that kind of very trusting appearance at a hostile court.
Hmm.
R. Martin is kind of, portraying a more gullible Richard because, uh, in 1483, Richard takes the throne rather than being
Yeah.
by his opponent. So I'd like to stick up for Richard here that he was,
Uh.
he, was the one when his brother Edward IV died, who was under threat. Uh,
Yeah,
he was smart and resourceful.
So I'm just putting
that's true. He did. He's kinda like, I mean, [00:18:00] it's the king, it's the, the throne,
and You're like,
cool. I get to be the king. But also it was very dangerous. Uh, and
so,
he does get some credit there for going, I'll be the king while the princes are in the tower.
uh,
Um.
brought, them up.
Yeah. Yes. Yes. A little, little, uh, little flash of
What's to come?
You can't talk. Yeah. You
can't talk about, uh, uh, Richard II and all this stuff without mentioning the princes in the tower. Uh, and just for our
listeners who might not know
what that is.
can you just give us a little overview of what the princes in the tower are? I know it's a big one, but just, you know.
Yeah, so the princes and nata, they're two boys. Uh, they're the two sons of. Edward iv, the previous king, uh, Richard's older brother. So these two boys, um, the oldest of the two is actually recognized. He isn't Crown, but he's recognized as Edward the V, uh, and his [00:19:00] younger brother is named Richard. uh, Richard Duke of Gloucester.
future. Richard iii. He's their uncle. So, uh, the V should in, in the expectation of many in April, 1483, when Edward IV dies, he should have gone on to become. King to be crowned, but instead, uh, a period of time, I'm not going to go into all the detail, but
Yeah, sure. It's a
lot.
a, Stony, Stratford, um, Richard gets hold of Edward the V and then a bit later on, he gets hold of his brother.
They go into the tower and they are not seen again.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
that's the basic background to it.
Mm-hmm. And So
okay, so there's so much debate that is like
the ultimate,
well at least for me, that is
the ultimate.
medieval debate. Did [00:20:00] Richard Thei kill the princes in the tower so that he could remain the king?
Hmm.
there's lots of heated debate on that. So,
uh, without getting
it won't and it hasn't stopped. And
no.
I think in, in a hundred years time, it probably will still be going
Probably. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so we're not gonna debate it today. We're just gonna throw it out there that it's a debate.
Sure. I
I
do. One of the things I'm so interested in, fingers crossed
probably
not gonna happen, but
is
the DNA testing where we found, um, bones that
we believe
are that
might belong to those two princes.
and
we wanna
DNA test them.
to
go, Well, we.
could DNA test them to confirm, and then we can extrapolate how they died and all that. But there's this block to, or at least like Queen Elizabeth II was like, I don't want to just let him rest. We don't want a DNA test. But King Charles, I think has said that he's up for it.
So.[00:21:00]
So,
What's the deal? Why are we not testing that? Do you know?
I,
Is that like, who knows?
I, I'm not pri,
knows?
privy to his inner thoughts, sadly.
Yes.
I, I do know that he is. more favorably disposed to the being tested. So
Yeah. Yes.
clarify this for your readers, that in, the reign of Charles ii, when they were doing some renovation work on the tower, they found the, the bones, uh, under a staircase.
Uh, they were examined in the 1930s, that that examination was interesting but also left. Um. A certain amount to be desired. And, uh, so we have this urn in Westminster Abbey that might or might not, might not hold their remains. And that's why DNA testing is, is so important. If, [00:22:00]
Yeah,
it was, it was, uh, the clincher when, um.
Founder remains a poor Richard himself in a car park
I get a parking lot. It's like,
in a
oh
Yeah. I
yeah.
Which, which really resonated with the British public to be stuck in a car park for more than 500 years.
Oh my
God, I
didn't think about it.
Poor
That is really funny.
but
guy.
that, that's, uh, it's a bit like, um. With the Romanovs when, um, the whole
Mm,
and Anna Anderson, that
yeah.
out by DNA.
So
Yeah.
wonderful if this could happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. And for anybody interested, I believe there is like this. Petition and this like organization, I think it's called the Two Princes project. I, I might be getting that wrong, but if you Google it,
there is like
a whole project about trying to get
the [00:23:00] required approvals from Westminster Abbey and the King and everything.
And
I don't know how close they are, but I'm just gonna encourage hoards of people to go knock down doors and try to get this DNA testing done. 'cause oh my God, that would. Honestly, it
probably would continue the debate in a different way about, well, what does it really mean and how did they die? But it would be like a big puzzle piece. So,
um,
yeah. Yes,
Yes.
And uh, going
back just a little bit to the,
um, the reputation of Richard, this is one of my favorite.
subjects too. I don't know if you can tell, I love talking about Richard's reputation. I don't know why. Um, but is
there,
is there
there anything that you came across
that,
was like, so obviously a lot of propaganda, was there
something that was just totally outlandish that was said about him just crazy that maybe most people don't know about?
That was said,
Well, we're, we are finding [00:24:00] new things about him all the time. Some small, some bigger. if, if we start with, go back to Shakespeare again, you know, when the winter of our discontent, the first thing he's up to, uh. he is plodding the murder of another of his brothers, George Duke,
Ah,
who will have the most wonderful death in that but of Marsy wine.
Uh, so,
that's right.
so he's up to no good from the very beginning and, uh, you know, sort of to, because he's aiming for the throne. He wants to get his brother who's older than him out of the
Uh.
So, so, I mean, how
He is just unhinged
murderer all around basically.
killer absolutely. In, in,
Yeah.
eye. But the interesting thing is that, um.
We have, uh, a source that predates the Jus Dominic Mancini, he was a
Oh.
Italian who, who was in [00:25:00] London at, at, around the time after the fourth died for about, um, six months. So late 1482 to the summer of 1483. He, he's a sort of reflection of a variety of sources, but what he says was that Richard, far from plotting the murder of his brother, was distraught, uh, feared.
Ah.
Blamed the death on the Woodville family. That's the family of Edward. The fourth queen
Aha.
that he was next, so he were getting the whole resonance of Game of Thrones coming
Mm-hmm.
retreated to his strongholds in the north and, and came to court more rarely. And when I, when I was researching, I found some very interesting material in the Durham records that that.
I kind of bore that out. and so
Ah.
finding, um, snippets all the time and some of these snippets, uh, [00:26:00] on portray a, a more nuanced, uh, personality and some of them go against the grain, uh,
Oh,
the grain of the Tudor picture.
yes. I love that.
Uh, yeah. I don't think that he was just like a raging psychopath killer, uh, that doesn't see, it has the ring of like, not. Quite true. Uh, you know, it things, he's a real person. He would've felt things and
Yeah.
nuance, as
you said,
absolutely. And, um, respected. Uh, he, the second part of his brother's reign, he binds together in the north of England. Now, that was a rough, tough area to get a handle on, and he
north of England. Yeah.
Uh, you get then and now. Yep. And,
Yeah.
he, he wins people's respect by. A variety. He's, he's, uh, military leader who'll win back [00:27:00] Barrick was given away at the beginning of the wars, the roses.
He gets a lot of respect for that. He, he shows, um, both as Duke and King, he shows very fair justice and gets a lot of respect for that. One could go on and on. But he, uh, the interesting thing about him and, and why he's. Effective in 1483 was that he, uh, he's a shrewd political operator and also
Hmm.
a lot of loyalty.
And he's also, you know, uh, a man of real piety and also very strongly influenced by chivalry. So are,
Right.
features of him that don't, don't crop up very much in the Tudor picture, but I think
Yeah.
in terms of understanding both him and the battle.
Yes, and I,
I.
could be totally mixing up my. King [00:28:00] portraits here. But isn't there a painting of him with his like, fingers, like, Hmm, like almost like, uh, Mr. Burn style, like, like fingers together? I, I could be totally thinking of another king.
Well, there's one, there's one picture where he is nervously pulling at a a ring. Or
Ah, yes, yes, yes,
a dagger. Of course,
yes,
were doctored, know,
of course.
for example, we can show by
Uh,
examination of that picture that it was added later just to make him more nasty
that's crazy. That's crazy. And, and even like down
to the.
colors, like it's very subtle, but it, there seems to be like a shade of dark over. That portrait, like it's not bright and like, here's this awesome king. It's, it's, you get this
Sense of like,
coldness when you look at that photo or photo of the painting.
And I [00:29:00] wonder if, I don't know if anything was done after that to that, but that's just my take on it.
yeah. Well, we, we, we are kind of influenced, you know, it's the power of hindsight, for better or
Uh,
It's very, very, I mean. Very powerful to find his remains and for his remains to
Yeah.
because we are starting to step away from that Shakespearean, um, portrait of him.
Idea. Yeah,
course was a, a very different reconstruction of his face,
I,
that was done as a result of the fine.
So
yeah.
we, we are starting to move away from the angst ridden kind of
Yeah.
finger twiddling
Yeah.
and getting something I, I'd say more complex. Uh.
Yeah. And am I crazy? But does he, the, the new like construction of his face, does it look like, what's his name? Like what's Lord? Bark worth, [00:30:00] uh, in Shrek, the, the prince, I'm trying to think of what his name is, the Shrek prince guy. He looks like the new face of Richard iii. I swear to God, Google it. It is the craziest thing.
I, I'll
Uh,
later.
yeah. It's like, it's like, oh my God. Like I wonder if they based it off of that. I don't know the timeline here,
but, um.
I'm, I'll be very cautious going down that route before I knew about it,
Yeah, seriously. Good. It's one of those like, you know, conspiracy things or something, but look it up. It's, it's so weird.
Okay.
Um,
Okay. So.
hypothetically here, if Richard had won Bosworth, what do you, what kinds of things do you think he would say about Henry Tudor in propaganda? How do you think he would paint him?
Well, that's an interesting question.
I know it's kind of out there.
Yeah, I mean, well, Henry Tudor, [00:31:00] it's, it's an interesting one that he, he spent most of his life as a exr or fugitive. So he was in Brittany, which at that time was a semi independent power within France, and he was
Yeah.
in Brittany for about 12 years, and then he was sheltered by the French and.
Uh, one of the things, I mean, this is my own sense, that with a bit of dark humor at the Yorkers Court was that he wasn't seen as a great Marshall figure. Uh, so, um, Edward IV tries to get hold of Henry Tudor because he's a
Hmm.
claimant. He has, uh, a lancastrian. Blood link via his mother, uh, Margaret Befor.
Uh,
Yeah.
complicated because the
Yeah.
are of royal blood, but they've been barred from the throne, but where if you are barred, you can get un barred. Uh,
Naturally,
ed
you know.[00:32:00]
is keeping an eye on him and in 1476, he nearly gets him out of Brittany. But, uh, the. The, Breon Duke is ill, this goes on, and then Henry goes down with this violent.
of stomach cramps and, uh, while this chaos is happening with his stomach cramps, that the BRE on Duke kind of recovers and sends a, a false messenger saying, no, no, no, it's all mistake. Bring him back. But this i,
Yeah.
of the stomach cramps, which, uh, is
Ooh.
by Paula, do Virgil, um, shortly before the invasion and then.
In, in Buckingham's Rebellion, this rebellion Richard in 1483 is supposed to be supported by Henry Tudor. Uh, Henry Tudor. His, his small fleet is dispersed by a storm, but he kind of appears off the coast, probably of Dorsett, and,
uh,
sends a [00:33:00] boat to kind of have a look and then just decides I'm outta here.
Uh, and, and the picture is starting to emerge here and during his campaign. Um, so he, he lands in Wales and, and then marches into England, and then for at least a day he gets lost and he loses his army. I. Now I, I, I think, I think that if Richard had won that there'd be some rather right humor
yes.
I think the thing, this is my own take, uh, in terms of the book, I think the thing that angered Richard was seeing Henry Tudor about a mile back from his main body of troops, kind of, so
Huh.
Make a run for it things weren't going very well. And if you
Sure.
put everything I'm saying together, think from Rich's point of view, he saw him as a man who was not [00:34:00] up to the mark in terms of courage. Uh.
Yeah.
I, I, in terms of fairness, I I, it could also be said that he is shown a lot of courage in showing up at all with that small army.
But,
Showing up at all?
Yeah,
I'm not trying to be even handed, I'm trying to answer your question, which is how
sure.
and the York is Victors. So I
Yes.
the piss out of Henry Theater
Oh yeah. Lots of interesting, juicy things that they could have said. I feel even way more than they could have said about than they did
say About Richard. There's a lot of stuff.
Ooh,
oh,
would be interesting.
quite a lot they said about Richard.
Yes.
I mean, basically once you've won and you've killed your opponent and you're on the throne, you know,
Yeah.
you've got,
Fair
game.
got a lot of ammo you can start playing with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that is. So, okay, so before we go, I do wanna ask a little bit about, um, the [00:35:00] mothers, um, the Margaret Beaufort has
been
she pops
up a lot
in Henry's sort of journey to becoming King. Was she really
that like
Super, almost like
helicopter.
mom, deeply involved in his life.
Helicopter. Mom, I love it. This, this, this is a great American phrase, isn't it? Uh, I, I tell you, she was so active that if she'd had access to a helicopter, she'd have been over that battlefield. I, I'm absolutely sure of it. the thing is, the thing is that very, very close after. wins, and, um, she as King's mother, she, she's the power behind the throne.
But the thing to stress is that firstly, when Henry was growing up, that he separated from his mother. Uh, and Henry [00:36:00] again for your listeners, viewers, he's a, he's an only child, um. That he's, he's granted to. is the idea of wardship. He's basically given to one of Edward the fourth's chief followers, William Lord Herbert.
So Henry is taken away from his mother to Raglan Castle in Wales. That's where he is brought up.
Yeah.
reunited and then Henry's. Blown away. He's trying to get to France with his uncle Jasper Judy. He ends up in Brittany. for most of his life, um, mom and son are separated and. It is really, there's a retrospective.
I mean, she's obviously, you know, they're in touch. We, we know that in Richard's Reign, she's a conspirator. She is,
Hmm.
um, taking a lot of risks on his [00:37:00] behalf. Uh, and we also know that. Late in Edward, the fourth reign, and perhaps earlier, she's trying to broker a deal with the king and to get her son back. So props to her,
Yeah.
really
Yeah.
her best.
But I think at the same time, one has to say that rather than being a helicopter mom, she's an absent mom, trying to do her best in difficult circumstances,
Yeah,
uh, they have a very, very close bond and um, she plays a part in
yeah, yeah. She was like very, very for it. Like, this is gonna happen. Let's do this. And contrasting that with Richard's mom, Cecil. Cecil Neville,
Cecily
Cecily. Yes,
Yeah. So I'm like, we say it wrong. I don't know. Maybe it's my bias. I always say it wrong. Um, so she, she was, She kind of like,
you right very quickly.
yeah. Yeah.[00:38:00]
She was very
So she was very
much like
she
Afraid of what was gonna happen and knew very well what was, what the stakes were and everything. What happened
to her?
Did
she die before?
her
son was
killed?
in battle?
No.
No.
afterwards. Now
Okay.
again, the, the Tudor legend, you have Margaret Buffet kind, a kind of helicopter mom. I, I, I do enjoy that phrase work where, whereas Cecily Neville is slanted by. Nasty Richard, who, who even says that, um, his mother might have committed adultery and that that
Oh.
brother Big Brother Edward wasn't legitimate.
Which, you know, according to the Tudors is totally Rich's invention. And, uh, go back to
Hmm.
Manini, he tells us that it was Cecily herself who said that, but let's not worry about that. Uh, [00:39:00] and then. Famously, you know, uh, Cecily curses Richard.
Hmm.
in our
Yeah.
of psychoanalysis, we can have a lot of fun with that.
But
Yeah.
in my book, I didn't buy that sequence of events. And if I just make one of many points I could make, but as Richard is preparing to meet. Henry UD in battle. He goes up to Nottingham Castle and on the way he stops off where Cecily is at Hamstead Castle, that's where she lives. That's where she will die in 14 95, 10
Mm.
the battle.
Uh, so rather than being cursed by his mother,
Yeah.
is asking for her blessing.
Uh, lovely. That's nice. Um,
okay.
Yes,
Couple questions left. Yes, yes, it is actually very nice.
And so I prefer that version, and it sounds, it sounds more [00:40:00] true than cursing her son. Um.
Okay. So other than the princes in the tower,
other
Richard's reputation, are there any topics or questions around
this
era of like
wars of the roses, bosworth, that
are?
highly debate debated today still?
Well, the princes in the tower is the high octane. Topic, uh,
yeah.
that fascinates us. And what, what I would like to say about this is that it, it is kind of like a kafkaesque court of justice that
Really. Okay.
rescheduling and rescheduling and rescheduling.
But, if we imagine a scenario, and it's just a scenario where Richard believes that he has a right to be king. and as a result, does not initially want to kill the princes. This is the argument I put forward in Bosworth, and then there is an [00:41:00] attempt, uh, uh, uh, to rescue the princes, and I was the first historian to put that on the map up.
Love it.
that at this point he has to balance the risk. Uh, if he keeps them alive again, you know, the risk to his dynasty. And that's the most
Yeah.
thing. at this point, if we step back and look at historical precedent, I'd mention to, so the first is when Henry Bollingbrook, the future Henry iv. Lands, uh, in England in 30 99, he becomes king.
He'll become Henry iv. He deposes the, um, reigning king. Richard II doesn't have him killed, but when there's the first rising that tries to put him back on the throne, he is killed. And, and the second thing I I'd mention is that late in Henry the eights reign, when there is another domestic threat by the.
Um, pool family. This, this, these are descendants through the female line of Richard's brother George Duke of [00:42:00]
Hmm.
He has, uh, the elderly Countess, the Salisbury market pool executed her, her son executed, and the key thing is her grandson is also 12 the same age as Edward, the V he's put in the tower.
seen again, and yet
Hmm.
we have books, and books and tons of attention on one prince in the tower and none on the other. So I think that
Oh.
it was. Whatever we think. And there are a variety of opinions that the reality was that the biggest and most important thing for, uh, a medieval aristocrat or ruler with safeguarding what was called the live load, the livelihood, that the inheritance, uh,
Uhhuh.
it's the
Yeah.
the dynasty.
And if you m that up, that's the
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
So these would be what you guys all discuss. If I put a bunch of [00:43:00] Tudor historians in a room
for 12 hours?
it, it would all end in this kind
of debate and
discussion.
be a, uh, that would be a very optimistic, uh, a key thing is plenty of foods and alcohol, and I'm sure, uh, everyone rather, like George Duke, Clarence, you know, we, we'd roll with it as, as
I would pay to see it. I would pay to see that, uh, those discussions. Um, and my last question is, is are there any other books you're working on in the future that we can see after this?
Yeah, I've, I've done, uh, on the Black Prince. Um,
Hmm.
out for that. That's also,
Yeah.
Yes.
brought out in the States as well as in the uk. Uh, and that was a, a wonderful thing to do and again, you know, trying to. Reevaluate the reputation and, and what I'm working on at the moment is the end of the a hundred years war.
So [00:44:00] there's,
Oh
a lot there on Joan of Arc and you look and Joan of Arc and, and how
yeah.
wrong. And the bigger question is in, in that is why we keep fighting losing wars.
Ah,
of topical, eh?
yes. Very topical. Interesting. Woo. God the black prince too in the a hundred years. I don't even know which one I would pick to read first. That, that's really
interesting.
Prince is out, so go
So, okay, that's, that's the first one that I'm gonna read. That is so interesting. Oh, okay.
Um.
writing that book. I really did.
Yeah.
so do check. Do
Oh, okay.
do check it out, Emily.
And you can
get On Amazon.
just like
this one.
Bosworth. Uh, you can get on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, basically anywhere that you find books.
Um, okay. Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and answering all of these questions.
I loved
talking with you.
Um, Michael [00:45:00] Jones,
author of Bosworth 1485, the Battle That Transformed England, and author of a lot of other books too.
Thank you for being here.
it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Yeah. All right. Bye.
And we talk about everything about before, during, and after war. So let's go!
Welcome to
the
Why Wars
Happened
podcast where we have narrated war history episodes, and we also
have episodes where we sit down with filmmakers, authors,
politicians, and
historians, and we talk about wars in history.
Today's
guest
am very
excited about this. So today's guest is Michael Jones, a military historian,
Tour
guide, and an author of several incredible [00:01:00] books, uh, everything
pretty much
ranging.
from medieval battles to World War ii. He's written about,
and he's the author
of today's book,
Bosworth 1485,
the Battle that Transformed England.
Michael,
thank you so much for joining us today.
A big, big pleasure.
Yes.
so
as
I was kinda saying a little bit before, uh, we got started here. I
am
so excited to talk about Bosworth.
It's one of those like niche, like
If you love
Tudor,
you've probably
heard of
the battle.
of Bosworth.
But, uh, yeah. So if you love Tudors, listen to this episode, you're gonna love it. Um,
I would like to ask you for just a brief overview of
what
the Battle of Bosworth was and why it was so important.
Yeah, sure. So the Battle of Bosworth was fought on the 22nd of August, 1485, and just to keep it simple, it marked the end of the Wars of the Roses. That's a period of 30 years [00:02:00] or so of Civil War, and it also marked the beginning of the Tudor Dynasty because the winner at Bosworth, Henry Tudor becomes.
Henry III and his opponent, the reigning King Richard III, is killed in battle. So it really is pivotal moment in terms of our history
Yes, the beginning of the Tudors, everybody's favorite. I used to ask people on the show like
way back in the day. Uh, you know
what
their.
favorite period of time was if they could try and travel to whatever they focused on their area of study or the Tudor era. Everyone was like, Tudors, Tudors, Tudors.
It didn't matter what kind of historian.
they were.
So,
Uh,
very
popular. Um, and
and
so this is like the craziest
thing
there.
I
don't wanna give away like too much 'cause people really should read this book. It's a really cool book. But
can you just give us a little
[00:03:00] tease or a
little hint of
like 500 years we thought that Oh.
the battle took place over here, but you're like, Hmm, actually.
Well, that we have a wonderful in, in Leicestershire. We have a wonderful Battlefield center for Bosworth.
Hmm.
it is in the wrong place. It was,
Oh God.
it was put up in, in the late 1970s, the county council bought some farmland and at the time. It was on a hill called Ambien Hill. And in, if we consider the of history, which culminates of course, with William Shakespeare,
Mm-hmm.
The battle takes place by the time we get to Shakespeare and Shakespeare's Rich III on Ambien Hill. And that was our first narrative. So if you visited
Sure.
the, what was described as the battlefield in say, [00:04:00] 1980, uh, everything was arranged around this quite small hill.
Hmm.
the whole battle story was based on that.
But over a period of time, a lot of questions have been asked about that narrative. And more
Yeah.
there was a debate, and my, my book when it first came out was part of that debate, um, lottery heritage, funding, archeology. And now we know a lot more and we know,
Yeah.
we know segments of the battle. So we know that the battle took place.
Further south, Southwest, about a mile and a half southwest of where the Battlefield Center is, uh, along a Roman road. And the most exciting thing is that through archeology, uh, to some extent, place, name, evidence, but really archeology, we can lo locate with some degree of certainty where Richard actually died [00:05:00]
Oh
to,
yes.
you know, I, I take people on battlefield tours and we.
We look through a gap in the hedge, and
Oh.
I, I, I point over in the direction of the, of the field and I, I say towards the next hedge. That was where Richard was probably crying out for his horse.
Uh, that is so.
so that's pretty neat, isn't it?
Yes. That is amazing, man. I wish I were over in England. I could do that.
Um,
gosh,
that is really cool. Yes, yes. I
am planning on going over there. Hopefully in the
next
year if I
do like, I'm going to hit you up and be like, take me on this tour. I want to do this. Um,
that, okay. So
Shakespeare,
good old Shakespeare, gave us a lot of our language,
but also,
gave us a lot of, uh. Misunderstandings about events, let's say in Kings.
um, so that line, the, the my, the famous [00:06:00] line, my kingdom.
for a horse. And that didn't really go down that way,
uh, from what we know.
well, um, interestingly, may, there may be some truth in that to the extent
ooh.
that, possibly between, possibly, and probably Richard was Unhorsed. Uh, he led a charge to try and kill his opponent and that charge went wrong.
Yeah.
then. He was driven away. there's a very interesting source, uh, that shows Recept Thomas, who was one of Henry Tudor's Welsh followers fighting Richard.
And, um, Richard's horse is rearing up. And you could see the detail is very interesting. The horseshoe has come off, so I, I don't discount the horse completely, but. But [00:07:00] interesting is that Shakespeare is the culmination of Tudor legend, and Shakespeare
Hmm.
needed to keep. Elizabeth, I, the whole ju to Dynasty on
Yeah.
and the portrayal is basically, it's, um, it's the judgment story that the, the way the Tudors increasingly made sense of the battle was it was divine punishment on nasty Rich ii
Sure. Yeah,
was
yeah,
a whole mass of.
Awful crimes. I'm sure you're
yeah.
one or two of them.
Yes. Is.
And as a result, has betrayed others. So now on the field of battle, he'll be betrayed himself. And really, in my book, absolutely. You know, no mercy
Yeah.
I wanted to. It's kind, this is kind of history told by the winners and I, I was
Mm-hmm.
in my book to sort of do history [00:08:00] to what might have been told by the losers if they'd had a
Yes.
So rather than nervous, Richard, I. fiddling with his ring and his dagger and having all these nightmares, not even able to have breakfast in the morning, poor guy, uh, and be very much on the defensive, very much reacting to events beyond his control. I
Yeah.
portray a dynamic leader with a mission, uh, a sense of.
Uh, rightly or wrongly, there's a lot of historical debate, but for him, what I put out was he had a strong sense of the legitimate legitimacy of his cause, and the
Hmm.
his army, which was between two and three times larger than Henry TDIs felt the same way. it's kind of, my story was turning Shakespeare on its head.
[00:09:00] Yes, I
loved it.
and,
and I. Okay. Yes.
Yes. I
love that idea of,
okay,
well what does the other side
have to
say?
about this is,
And especially
Tudors, and I
this up on the show
a
few times where
I actually use the Tudors
an example,
of medieval propaganda because they're just
so, um.
oh, the word escapes me.
They're just so. The epitome of medieval propaganda, uh,
where it's like literally a king's
set to
work his chronicler. Like, make this guy look as bad as you can and make me look as
legitimate.
as you can.
You can.
Um,
You're on
yeah.
it, Emily. I love it.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we definitely have this, like, you get this almost like chill in your bones when you hear Richard ii,
You know, uh,
and so
I do wanna
bring
that up a little bit, but first I wanted to ask about.
so the Battle of Bosworth itself. We
have all these [00:10:00] different
pieces going where we have a,
larger army and a smaller army, and then
we have
Lord Stanley
kind of hanging back,
watching
like, oh, I told Richard
I would be there, but who's really gonna win?
And that's when I'll charge in and help.
how
close
was this?
battle to going a different way? Let's say forget Lord Stanley. Forget him charging in.
Okay, we can come back to the standards in a while.
Yes.
the, give you an idea of how close it was, so Richard and a force of maybe some 200 Mountain Knights charged straight at Henry Tudor.
Hmm.
Richard gets close enough to Henry Tudor to his standard bearer, um, William Brandon. So
Yeah.
that's within feet of finishing the battle with a win.
Yeah.
And then,
So close[00:11:00]
uh, we are told by sources and including Paula, do Virgil, who almost certainly spoke to people who were there, that at this point, you know, it's absolutely on a knife edge. And another large night John Cheney rides in the way blocking Richard's roots are killing Henry Tudor. So it's, it's a matter of feet and it's a matter
Oh,
from going the
oh.
That's how close it is.
Can you imagine? Oh, I can't, I
don't even know what history would even
look, look
like.
That is just,
It
uh.
very different.
Very different. Like we wouldn't, we, I don't even know if we'd have the stewards because
No Tudors. No Tudors.
So
would
James was, Yeah,
Okay.
so
and if
that didn't happen. How would the colonization of America have happened? Like it just,
I
don't even know what history
would
look like,
So
that is just
Wild to think about feet like it happened
so
long ago, but I get the like goosebumps like, no,[00:12:00]
Yeah.
it's so funny. History
Seems alive.
Um,
So
yeah.
so we're talking like,
so Stanley,
was that really true that he,
hung
back and he is like
watching
the battle.
you know, or is that
Kind of,
romanticized like.
so if you imagine a sports fixture, I, I dunno what kind of sports you're into, where you've
None.
okay, let's, let's kept that one simple.
Yeah.
imagine the two teams. And then a group of spectators who, who reasonably skilled, who could join the fixture at any stage.
That's what we've got. We've got Richard II's Army, and then we've got Henry Tudor's Army, and then we have a third Army. I. Under the Stanleys. Now my own view is the commander is Sir William Stanley. That's Lord Stanley's younger brother. And this, this is what the [00:13:00] Stanleys have done. This, they did this right at the beginning of the wars.
The Roses. William Stanley goes off joins one side, Lord Stanley. Uh, attempts to join the other side, but all manner of excuses like, oh, my leg, I, I'm on my
Hmm.
Uh, I, I think
Be there in five minutes.
10 minutes, sorry. Traffic's really bad.
Yeah.
gr gridlock. And, and, and they, they're doing this, you know, they're doing this back in, um, 1459, right at the beginning of the wars, the roses at one
Hmm.
Heath.
I think they're doing exactly the same thing, and. Lord Stanley, this is a solemn oath. Uh, he says, the first time I actually saw I met Henry Tudor was on the 24th of
Hmm.
two days after the battle. So I think we're dealing with Sir William, and actually William gets written out of the Chronicles because
Yeah.
[00:14:00] later on he.
Rebels against Henry VIII and is executed.
Hmm.
Thomas Lord Stanley is put in this place. So that's a bit complicated, but basically he's
Okay. Yeah.
of those photographs where one of the people is sort of taken out. So my candidate for this army spectating is that it was the, um, younger brother, sir William.
But anyway, we'll
Mm
them the Stanler. Uh.
The Stanley's, yeah.
so, so you've got these three armies and what I think Richards decides to do, the Vanguards engage and then Richard sees an opportunity, he has a clear view of Henry Tudor. I. Much smaller army. There's, there's no central force with Henry Tudor. It's a large vanguard, and then it's just
Hmm.
and, and Richard decides, I'm gonna take this guy out.
So he charges so that. That's what I think was going [00:15:00] on.
Mm-hmm.
uh, as I say, it came very close to success, but it was also very risky because if something went wrong and something did go wrong, the the Stanley Force can intervene. So I. So
Yes.
a very bold, uh, and uh, I, I'm using positive words, but but also very risky.
Yeah. Yeah.
you
That's very nice of you
you get a flavor of that. So, yeah, I, I don't want to complicate. Things too much with the, the standards because I, I, I'll tell you, there's people at the time had no idea what their family was up to. So if
Yeah.
feeling confused, you can join the 15th Century club. know, there's
That's perfect.
years earlier when, when Richard has just taken the throne. So there's an earlier rebellion called Buckingham's Rebellion. Uh, one, there's a Stanley force moving around in in Lancashire and, and one writer says there's a Stanley [00:16:00] force moving around, but what they're up to, I am the faintest idea. And I think that kind of sums it up with that look
I
love.
it. Love it. So we can all feel, we can all rest easy.
We're not supposed to.
understand everything.
About this. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Well that's, that's,
pretty cool. And,
and
for
fans of,
uh,
I'm gonna bring it up,
I'm gonna bring it
up. Fans of game of Thrones. Uh, and fans of Tudors will
see the Connection.
or, or have seen the connection.
It's almost comical
how much, uh,
the.
wars of the roses and all the characters and the events and everything are actually in Game of Thrones. Where you have, you
People are going, oh, sir William,
the Lord
Stanley is like, okay, Stanis,
Uh, you know, and then you have
the
s
Lannister
in Game of Thrones are the Lancasters. Right, and
the Starks are the Yorks, and
then, uh, you have the entire map of Game of Thrones, the whole.
like land [00:17:00] world is really just Britain turned on its side. If you turn Britain on its side, that's the map
I,
for that world.
people have really gone to town on this because, uh, undoubtedly the, the wars of the roses was an influence, but at the
Yes.
it's kind of taken on the life of its own. Uh,
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
That, that.
but I, I, I think the way Game of Thrones begins with that kind of very trusting appearance at a hostile court.
Hmm.
R. Martin is kind of, portraying a more gullible Richard because, uh, in 1483, Richard takes the throne rather than being
Yeah.
by his opponent. So I'd like to stick up for Richard here that he was,
Uh.
he, was the one when his brother Edward IV died, who was under threat. Uh,
Yeah,
he was smart and resourceful.
So I'm just putting
that's true. He did. He's kinda like, I mean, [00:18:00] it's the king, it's the, the throne,
and You're like,
cool. I get to be the king. But also it was very dangerous. Uh, and
so,
he does get some credit there for going, I'll be the king while the princes are in the tower.
uh,
Um.
brought, them up.
Yeah. Yes. Yes. A little, little, uh, little flash of
What's to come?
You can't talk. Yeah. You
can't talk about, uh, uh, Richard II and all this stuff without mentioning the princes in the tower. Uh, and just for our
listeners who might not know
what that is.
can you just give us a little overview of what the princes in the tower are? I know it's a big one, but just, you know.
Yeah, so the princes and nata, they're two boys. Uh, they're the two sons of. Edward iv, the previous king, uh, Richard's older brother. So these two boys, um, the oldest of the two is actually recognized. He isn't Crown, but he's recognized as Edward the V, uh, and his [00:19:00] younger brother is named Richard. uh, Richard Duke of Gloucester.
future. Richard iii. He's their uncle. So, uh, the V should in, in the expectation of many in April, 1483, when Edward IV dies, he should have gone on to become. King to be crowned, but instead, uh, a period of time, I'm not going to go into all the detail, but
Yeah, sure. It's a
lot.
a, Stony, Stratford, um, Richard gets hold of Edward the V and then a bit later on, he gets hold of his brother.
They go into the tower and they are not seen again.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
that's the basic background to it.
Mm-hmm. And So
okay, so there's so much debate that is like
the ultimate,
well at least for me, that is
the ultimate.
medieval debate. Did [00:20:00] Richard Thei kill the princes in the tower so that he could remain the king?
Hmm.
there's lots of heated debate on that. So,
uh, without getting
it won't and it hasn't stopped. And
no.
I think in, in a hundred years time, it probably will still be going
Probably. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so we're not gonna debate it today. We're just gonna throw it out there that it's a debate.
Sure. I
I
do. One of the things I'm so interested in, fingers crossed
probably
not gonna happen, but
is
the DNA testing where we found, um, bones that
we believe
are that
might belong to those two princes.
and
we wanna
DNA test them.
to
go, Well, we.
could DNA test them to confirm, and then we can extrapolate how they died and all that. But there's this block to, or at least like Queen Elizabeth II was like, I don't want to just let him rest. We don't want a DNA test. But King Charles, I think has said that he's up for it.
So.[00:21:00]
So,
What's the deal? Why are we not testing that? Do you know?
I,
Is that like, who knows?
I, I'm not pri,
knows?
privy to his inner thoughts, sadly.
Yes.
I, I do know that he is. more favorably disposed to the being tested. So
Yeah. Yes.
clarify this for your readers, that in, the reign of Charles ii, when they were doing some renovation work on the tower, they found the, the bones, uh, under a staircase.
Uh, they were examined in the 1930s, that that examination was interesting but also left. Um. A certain amount to be desired. And, uh, so we have this urn in Westminster Abbey that might or might not, might not hold their remains. And that's why DNA testing is, is so important. If, [00:22:00]
Yeah,
it was, it was, uh, the clincher when, um.
Founder remains a poor Richard himself in a car park
I get a parking lot. It's like,
in a
oh
Yeah. I
yeah.
Which, which really resonated with the British public to be stuck in a car park for more than 500 years.
Oh my
God, I
didn't think about it.
Poor
That is really funny.
but
guy.
that, that's, uh, it's a bit like, um. With the Romanovs when, um, the whole
Mm,
and Anna Anderson, that
yeah.
out by DNA.
So
Yeah.
wonderful if this could happen. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. And for anybody interested, I believe there is like this. Petition and this like organization, I think it's called the Two Princes project. I, I might be getting that wrong, but if you Google it,
there is like
a whole project about trying to get
the [00:23:00] required approvals from Westminster Abbey and the King and everything.
And
I don't know how close they are, but I'm just gonna encourage hoards of people to go knock down doors and try to get this DNA testing done. 'cause oh my God, that would. Honestly, it
probably would continue the debate in a different way about, well, what does it really mean and how did they die? But it would be like a big puzzle piece. So,
um,
yeah. Yes,
Yes.
And uh, going
back just a little bit to the,
um, the reputation of Richard, this is one of my favorite.
subjects too. I don't know if you can tell, I love talking about Richard's reputation. I don't know why. Um, but is
there,
is there
there anything that you came across
that,
was like, so obviously a lot of propaganda, was there
something that was just totally outlandish that was said about him just crazy that maybe most people don't know about?
That was said,
Well, we're, we are finding [00:24:00] new things about him all the time. Some small, some bigger. if, if we start with, go back to Shakespeare again, you know, when the winter of our discontent, the first thing he's up to, uh. he is plodding the murder of another of his brothers, George Duke,
Ah,
who will have the most wonderful death in that but of Marsy wine.
Uh, so,
that's right.
so he's up to no good from the very beginning and, uh, you know, sort of to, because he's aiming for the throne. He wants to get his brother who's older than him out of the
Uh.
So, so, I mean, how
He is just unhinged
murderer all around basically.
killer absolutely. In, in,
Yeah.
eye. But the interesting thing is that, um.
We have, uh, a source that predates the Jus Dominic Mancini, he was a
Oh.
Italian who, who was in [00:25:00] London at, at, around the time after the fourth died for about, um, six months. So late 1482 to the summer of 1483. He, he's a sort of reflection of a variety of sources, but what he says was that Richard, far from plotting the murder of his brother, was distraught, uh, feared.
Ah.
Blamed the death on the Woodville family. That's the family of Edward. The fourth queen
Aha.
that he was next, so he were getting the whole resonance of Game of Thrones coming
Mm-hmm.
retreated to his strongholds in the north and, and came to court more rarely. And when I, when I was researching, I found some very interesting material in the Durham records that that.
I kind of bore that out. and so
Ah.
finding, um, snippets all the time and some of these snippets, uh, [00:26:00] on portray a, a more nuanced, uh, personality and some of them go against the grain, uh,
Oh,
the grain of the Tudor picture.
yes. I love that.
Uh, yeah. I don't think that he was just like a raging psychopath killer, uh, that doesn't see, it has the ring of like, not. Quite true. Uh, you know, it things, he's a real person. He would've felt things and
Yeah.
nuance, as
you said,
absolutely. And, um, respected. Uh, he, the second part of his brother's reign, he binds together in the north of England. Now, that was a rough, tough area to get a handle on, and he
north of England. Yeah.
Uh, you get then and now. Yep. And,
Yeah.
he, he wins people's respect by. A variety. He's, he's, uh, military leader who'll win back [00:27:00] Barrick was given away at the beginning of the wars, the roses.
He gets a lot of respect for that. He, he shows, um, both as Duke and King, he shows very fair justice and gets a lot of respect for that. One could go on and on. But he, uh, the interesting thing about him and, and why he's. Effective in 1483 was that he, uh, he's a shrewd political operator and also
Hmm.
a lot of loyalty.
And he's also, you know, uh, a man of real piety and also very strongly influenced by chivalry. So are,
Right.
features of him that don't, don't crop up very much in the Tudor picture, but I think
Yeah.
in terms of understanding both him and the battle.
Yes, and I,
I.
could be totally mixing up my. King [00:28:00] portraits here. But isn't there a painting of him with his like, fingers, like, Hmm, like almost like, uh, Mr. Burn style, like, like fingers together? I, I could be totally thinking of another king.
Well, there's one, there's one picture where he is nervously pulling at a a ring. Or
Ah, yes, yes, yes,
a dagger. Of course,
yes,
were doctored, know,
of course.
for example, we can show by
Uh,
examination of that picture that it was added later just to make him more nasty
that's crazy. That's crazy. And, and even like down
to the.
colors, like it's very subtle, but it, there seems to be like a shade of dark over. That portrait, like it's not bright and like, here's this awesome king. It's, it's, you get this
Sense of like,
coldness when you look at that photo or photo of the painting.
And I [00:29:00] wonder if, I don't know if anything was done after that to that, but that's just my take on it.
yeah. Well, we, we, we are kind of influenced, you know, it's the power of hindsight, for better or
Uh,
It's very, very, I mean. Very powerful to find his remains and for his remains to
Yeah.
because we are starting to step away from that Shakespearean, um, portrait of him.
Idea. Yeah,
course was a, a very different reconstruction of his face,
I,
that was done as a result of the fine.
So
yeah.
we, we are starting to move away from the angst ridden kind of
Yeah.
finger twiddling
Yeah.
and getting something I, I'd say more complex. Uh.
Yeah. And am I crazy? But does he, the, the new like construction of his face, does it look like, what's his name? Like what's Lord? Bark worth, [00:30:00] uh, in Shrek, the, the prince, I'm trying to think of what his name is, the Shrek prince guy. He looks like the new face of Richard iii. I swear to God, Google it. It is the craziest thing.
I, I'll
Uh,
later.
yeah. It's like, it's like, oh my God. Like I wonder if they based it off of that. I don't know the timeline here,
but, um.
I'm, I'll be very cautious going down that route before I knew about it,
Yeah, seriously. Good. It's one of those like, you know, conspiracy things or something, but look it up. It's, it's so weird.
Okay.
Um,
Okay. So.
hypothetically here, if Richard had won Bosworth, what do you, what kinds of things do you think he would say about Henry Tudor in propaganda? How do you think he would paint him?
Well, that's an interesting question.
I know it's kind of out there.
Yeah, I mean, well, Henry Tudor, [00:31:00] it's, it's an interesting one that he, he spent most of his life as a exr or fugitive. So he was in Brittany, which at that time was a semi independent power within France, and he was
Yeah.
in Brittany for about 12 years, and then he was sheltered by the French and.
Uh, one of the things, I mean, this is my own sense, that with a bit of dark humor at the Yorkers Court was that he wasn't seen as a great Marshall figure. Uh, so, um, Edward IV tries to get hold of Henry Tudor because he's a
Hmm.
claimant. He has, uh, a lancastrian. Blood link via his mother, uh, Margaret Befor.
Uh,
Yeah.
complicated because the
Yeah.
are of royal blood, but they've been barred from the throne, but where if you are barred, you can get un barred. Uh,
Naturally,
ed
you know.[00:32:00]
is keeping an eye on him and in 1476, he nearly gets him out of Brittany. But, uh, the. The, Breon Duke is ill, this goes on, and then Henry goes down with this violent.
of stomach cramps and, uh, while this chaos is happening with his stomach cramps, that the BRE on Duke kind of recovers and sends a, a false messenger saying, no, no, no, it's all mistake. Bring him back. But this i,
Yeah.
of the stomach cramps, which, uh, is
Ooh.
by Paula, do Virgil, um, shortly before the invasion and then.
In, in Buckingham's Rebellion, this rebellion Richard in 1483 is supposed to be supported by Henry Tudor. Uh, Henry Tudor. His, his small fleet is dispersed by a storm, but he kind of appears off the coast, probably of Dorsett, and,
uh,
sends a [00:33:00] boat to kind of have a look and then just decides I'm outta here.
Uh, and, and the picture is starting to emerge here and during his campaign. Um, so he, he lands in Wales and, and then marches into England, and then for at least a day he gets lost and he loses his army. I. Now I, I, I think, I think that if Richard had won that there'd be some rather right humor
yes.
I think the thing, this is my own take, uh, in terms of the book, I think the thing that angered Richard was seeing Henry Tudor about a mile back from his main body of troops, kind of, so
Huh.
Make a run for it things weren't going very well. And if you
Sure.
put everything I'm saying together, think from Rich's point of view, he saw him as a man who was not [00:34:00] up to the mark in terms of courage. Uh.
Yeah.
I, I, in terms of fairness, I I, it could also be said that he is shown a lot of courage in showing up at all with that small army.
But,
Showing up at all?
Yeah,
I'm not trying to be even handed, I'm trying to answer your question, which is how
sure.
and the York is Victors. So I
Yes.
the piss out of Henry Theater
Oh yeah. Lots of interesting, juicy things that they could have said. I feel even way more than they could have said about than they did
say About Richard. There's a lot of stuff.
Ooh,
oh,
would be interesting.
quite a lot they said about Richard.
Yes.
I mean, basically once you've won and you've killed your opponent and you're on the throne, you know,
Yeah.
you've got,
Fair
game.
got a lot of ammo you can start playing with.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that is. So, okay, so before we go, I do wanna ask a little bit about, um, the [00:35:00] mothers, um, the Margaret Beaufort has
been
she pops
up a lot
in Henry's sort of journey to becoming King. Was she really
that like
Super, almost like
helicopter.
mom, deeply involved in his life.
Helicopter. Mom, I love it. This, this, this is a great American phrase, isn't it? Uh, I, I tell you, she was so active that if she'd had access to a helicopter, she'd have been over that battlefield. I, I'm absolutely sure of it. the thing is, the thing is that very, very close after. wins, and, um, she as King's mother, she, she's the power behind the throne.
But the thing to stress is that firstly, when Henry was growing up, that he separated from his mother. Uh, and Henry [00:36:00] again for your listeners, viewers, he's a, he's an only child, um. That he's, he's granted to. is the idea of wardship. He's basically given to one of Edward the fourth's chief followers, William Lord Herbert.
So Henry is taken away from his mother to Raglan Castle in Wales. That's where he is brought up.
Yeah.
reunited and then Henry's. Blown away. He's trying to get to France with his uncle Jasper Judy. He ends up in Brittany. for most of his life, um, mom and son are separated and. It is really, there's a retrospective.
I mean, she's obviously, you know, they're in touch. We, we know that in Richard's Reign, she's a conspirator. She is,
Hmm.
um, taking a lot of risks on his [00:37:00] behalf. Uh, and we also know that. Late in Edward, the fourth reign, and perhaps earlier, she's trying to broker a deal with the king and to get her son back. So props to her,
Yeah.
really
Yeah.
her best.
But I think at the same time, one has to say that rather than being a helicopter mom, she's an absent mom, trying to do her best in difficult circumstances,
Yeah,
uh, they have a very, very close bond and um, she plays a part in
yeah, yeah. She was like very, very for it. Like, this is gonna happen. Let's do this. And contrasting that with Richard's mom, Cecil. Cecil Neville,
Cecily
Cecily. Yes,
Yeah. So I'm like, we say it wrong. I don't know. Maybe it's my bias. I always say it wrong. Um, so she, she was, She kind of like,
you right very quickly.
yeah. Yeah.[00:38:00]
She was very
So she was very
much like
she
Afraid of what was gonna happen and knew very well what was, what the stakes were and everything. What happened
to her?
Did
she die before?
her
son was
killed?
in battle?
No.
No.
afterwards. Now
Okay.
again, the, the Tudor legend, you have Margaret Buffet kind, a kind of helicopter mom. I, I, I do enjoy that phrase work where, whereas Cecily Neville is slanted by. Nasty Richard, who, who even says that, um, his mother might have committed adultery and that that
Oh.
brother Big Brother Edward wasn't legitimate.
Which, you know, according to the Tudors is totally Rich's invention. And, uh, go back to
Hmm.
Manini, he tells us that it was Cecily herself who said that, but let's not worry about that. Uh, [00:39:00] and then. Famously, you know, uh, Cecily curses Richard.
Hmm.
in our
Yeah.
of psychoanalysis, we can have a lot of fun with that.
But
Yeah.
in my book, I didn't buy that sequence of events. And if I just make one of many points I could make, but as Richard is preparing to meet. Henry UD in battle. He goes up to Nottingham Castle and on the way he stops off where Cecily is at Hamstead Castle, that's where she lives. That's where she will die in 14 95, 10
Mm.
the battle.
Uh, so rather than being cursed by his mother,
Yeah.
is asking for her blessing.
Uh, lovely. That's nice. Um,
okay.
Yes,
Couple questions left. Yes, yes, it is actually very nice.
And so I prefer that version, and it sounds, it sounds more [00:40:00] true than cursing her son. Um.
Okay. So other than the princes in the tower,
other
Richard's reputation, are there any topics or questions around
this
era of like
wars of the roses, bosworth, that
are?
highly debate debated today still?
Well, the princes in the tower is the high octane. Topic, uh,
yeah.
that fascinates us. And what, what I would like to say about this is that it, it is kind of like a kafkaesque court of justice that
Really. Okay.
rescheduling and rescheduling and rescheduling.
But, if we imagine a scenario, and it's just a scenario where Richard believes that he has a right to be king. and as a result, does not initially want to kill the princes. This is the argument I put forward in Bosworth, and then there is an [00:41:00] attempt, uh, uh, uh, to rescue the princes, and I was the first historian to put that on the map up.
Love it.
that at this point he has to balance the risk. Uh, if he keeps them alive again, you know, the risk to his dynasty. And that's the most
Yeah.
thing. at this point, if we step back and look at historical precedent, I'd mention to, so the first is when Henry Bollingbrook, the future Henry iv. Lands, uh, in England in 30 99, he becomes king.
He'll become Henry iv. He deposes the, um, reigning king. Richard II doesn't have him killed, but when there's the first rising that tries to put him back on the throne, he is killed. And, and the second thing I I'd mention is that late in Henry the eights reign, when there is another domestic threat by the.
Um, pool family. This, this, these are descendants through the female line of Richard's brother George Duke of [00:42:00]
Hmm.
He has, uh, the elderly Countess, the Salisbury market pool executed her, her son executed, and the key thing is her grandson is also 12 the same age as Edward, the V he's put in the tower.
seen again, and yet
Hmm.
we have books, and books and tons of attention on one prince in the tower and none on the other. So I think that
Oh.
it was. Whatever we think. And there are a variety of opinions that the reality was that the biggest and most important thing for, uh, a medieval aristocrat or ruler with safeguarding what was called the live load, the livelihood, that the inheritance, uh,
Uhhuh.
it's the
Yeah.
the dynasty.
And if you m that up, that's the
Yeah. Yes. Yes.
So these would be what you guys all discuss. If I put a bunch of [00:43:00] Tudor historians in a room
for 12 hours?
it, it would all end in this kind
of debate and
discussion.
be a, uh, that would be a very optimistic, uh, a key thing is plenty of foods and alcohol, and I'm sure, uh, everyone rather, like George Duke, Clarence, you know, we, we'd roll with it as, as
I would pay to see it. I would pay to see that, uh, those discussions. Um, and my last question is, is are there any other books you're working on in the future that we can see after this?
Yeah, I've, I've done, uh, on the Black Prince. Um,
Hmm.
out for that. That's also,
Yeah.
Yes.
brought out in the States as well as in the uk. Uh, and that was a, a wonderful thing to do and again, you know, trying to. Reevaluate the reputation and, and what I'm working on at the moment is the end of the a hundred years war.
So [00:44:00] there's,
Oh
a lot there on Joan of Arc and you look and Joan of Arc and, and how
yeah.
wrong. And the bigger question is in, in that is why we keep fighting losing wars.
Ah,
of topical, eh?
yes. Very topical. Interesting. Woo. God the black prince too in the a hundred years. I don't even know which one I would pick to read first. That, that's really
interesting.
Prince is out, so go
So, okay, that's, that's the first one that I'm gonna read. That is so interesting. Oh, okay.
Um.
writing that book. I really did.
Yeah.
so do check. Do
Oh, okay.
do check it out, Emily.
And you can
get On Amazon.
just like
this one.
Bosworth. Uh, you can get on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, basically anywhere that you find books.
Um, okay. Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and answering all of these questions.
I loved
talking with you.
Um, Michael [00:45:00] Jones,
author of Bosworth 1485, the Battle That Transformed England, and author of a lot of other books too.
Thank you for being here.
it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Yeah. All right. Bye.
