Hey guys, welcome back to the Why Wars Happened History podcast, where you learn about the causes of wars and things like, why did it happen? Was it inevitable? Who was involved? Sometimes I go back hundreds of years just so we can understand what happened. And if you want to talk more about war, we also have authors, historians, war generals, royalty, actors, filmmakers, a whole bunch of people come on as guests.
And we talk about everything about before, during, and after war. So let's go!
Welcome to the Why Wars Happened History podcast where we have narrated history episodes, and we also have episodes where we sit down with historians, filmmakers, authors, politicians, and we talk about wars in history. Today's guest is Katja Hoyer.
She is a German born British historian and journalist. Uh, she is a visiting research fellow at King's College [00:01:00] London, and a fellow of the Royal Historical Society, which is. Really impressive. Um, and she's written multiple publications and co-host the podcast, the New Germany. And she's also author of today's book, which is widely acclaimed.
Uh, it's called Blood and Iron, the Rise and Fall of the German Empire, 1871 to 1918. Katja, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. Yes. So you know all about, you're actually from Germany and you're really a good person to talk to about what it feels like, kind of the German psyche a little bit.
Um, can you set it so you open up in 1815. Why 1815? Let's just start with that. Set the table a little bit. Yeah, I cheated a bit there because on the book cover it says that I start in 1871, which is when Germany is basically founded as a, as a country. Yeah. Um, but I do, I, I sort of felt when I was thinking about how to write the book, that I [00:02:00] had to go back a little bit because just can't understand how that country's come about without going back to 1815 at least.
Yes. Um, and this has been. Because basically before that time, um, Germany didn't really even exist as a concept. There were just over 400 little sort of states and city states and kingdoms and principalities and lots of, it was like a patchwork of, of German speaking, sort of political entities on the map.
And then Napoleon comes along and basically. The French emperor, um, the spaces and thinks to themself that this isn't exactly easy to control or, or to hold, to try and negotiate with, with all of these little sort of rulers and things and so on. Yeah. And so he basically sums this entire area up into slightly larger Unity comes unit.
He comes up with 38 states in the end. Um. Um, and basically that that's easier to manage. Um, and so this is really the first moment you get some sort of, um, sense of German unification, [00:03:00] ironically brought about Byman. Um, but it is an important moment and it also gives the Germans the idea that, uh. Um, because they end up 1815 beating Napoleon in a, in a sort of grand coalition, um, in which Prussia was the, the sort of leading military power.
Uh, but they're fighting together against Napoleon. And this is, this is basically setting the scene really for what we see later this year that Germans are stronger when, when they're fighting together. And it's an idea that we'll see. Yeah, kind of time and time again. Yeah. And it's so interesting. So you bring up Napoleon, right?
And so they're like, okay, that the whole French revolution really freaked everybody out in Europe, all the major powers. They're like, wow, this could come for us. And then now you have fast forward a little bit, now you have the German states kind of unifying and it freaked them out a little bit again. Uh, the major powers in Europe.
Can you tell us a little bit about their. Like reactions from those major powers as Germany Unified? Was it scary for them? [00:04:00] Yeah, I mean, it, it certainly was in the sense that, uh, it completely through the, this very fragile power balance that you had in Europe, people sometimes call it the concert of Europe because it was so finely tuned all of these different players in it basically that it just about kept the piece.
Um, the, the Brits always thought of the sort of balance of power and suddenly Germany unifies right in the center of, of all of this and creates the single largest state. On in, in Europe, on the continent. Um, and that of course, overnight, you know, completely this power balances are kilter and people are worried about that, and especially France, um, because this is usually based on anti French sentiment at this point.
Germans haven't got much to unify them at this stage other than their, their language, but that's a very vague, hazy, nice to have sort of thing. You know, what really unifies them is. Is that they're worried about French aggression does help that. The second time around in the, in the 1860s, the [00:05:00] French rulers, once again a Napoleon, Napoleon iii.
And so really you can play on all of these anxieties and the hostilities, and that's what unifies Germans, um, at this point. So yes, the rest of Europe is quite worried about that. Uh, yeah. And so like Prussia was a big deal before Germany became a country and it kind of got absorbed into Germany a little bit.
Was it kinda like trading a smaller big power for this like crazy big German power all of a sudden? Like a difference there? Um, yeah. I mean it's almost the other way around. So Prussia basically wanted to expand its influence over the other German state. States and it assumed that, uh, there was only so much you could do by kind of forcing the other states into its, into its remit, and it did that.
So some of them were just annexed just by the sheer kind of, you know, military power that that pressure had. But it also wanted to make sure that it could expand its influence over the entire, uh, kind of German speaking world in, in [00:06:00] Europe. And the way to do that was no fire. Germany, but under leadership, so that basically some, some people even call it Prussia, Germany, this kind of first German state.
Yeah. It is basically run by by Prussia. And that that kind of adds to the, occasionally on the podcast Prussia comes up and it's always this funny kinda thing of, well, what the hell even is Prussia? Is it a kingdom? Is it an area, is it a state? And it's kind of all of it. But now we're talking about prsa Germany and it just gets like these layers of confusion for people not from that area.
I feel like. So, depends on when you're talking about, that's pressure was a lot of things. Um. Yeah, mean, the easiest way to think about it just in one sentence is just that it's the northern part of Germany effectively, and it stretched all the way along the Baltic coast into what is now Poland and, and a bit of Russia as well.
But it was the northern stretch of of continental Europe. Really? Where yeah, where it was. It doesn't help that it was [00:07:00] actually destroyed and, and kind of, you know, it's not there anymore. So people yeah. Don't really have a way of, of envisioning it today because it was abolished in, in 18, in 1947 after the second World War. Mm-hmm. Yes. And so, okay, so you have all this kinda mishmash of.
People, maybe different cultures from the different states, kind of unified a little bit, but you have, you know, um, Catholics, Protestants, uh, industrializing areas mixed with rural areas. And did, did the German people at the time think, yeah, this will last? Or were they kind of skeptical about that? Well, most didn't feel that being German was sort of their, their first thing on their identity list.
As you say, people would say, well, you know, I'm, I'm a Catholic, or I'm a Protestant, or I'm from the Rhineland, or I'm from Bavaria. You know, these were like, their, their sort of points of identity. So, um, it's not like 1871 comes, [00:08:00] Germany is founded and everyone thinks I'm German now, first almost, but. Yeah, there was a, there was an overarching sense.
This is mostly brought about by the idea that they were fighting other people to get there. So there were three wars of unification and at each time, basically. You know, this, this kind of co bigger and bigger until it was, uh, unified under the kind of name or label of Germany in 1871. Yeah. So there is a sense that's part of their identity already, but really the, that has merged over time and, and the rulers.
I think Han Bismark, the first German chancellor was sort of head of government, is quite aware of that. And he, I would say similar to the US really in lots of ways. He does know that people are a bit wary of kind of centralized power. So he creates a federal. State and says from the beginning, yes, you can still, still Bavarian Bavaria will still exist as an entity, say or does pr Yeah, within this construct.
So you can be both Bavarian and and German at the same time within this federal state. And that's how it [00:09:00] works. That's so interesting and you know, it seems like very normal that that's how the over in America too, that's how our uh, country people weren't like, we're American. They're like, I am North Carolina, or I'm Georgian.
Like, it was very much the same way. So it seems kind of normal. Um, it's not identify with your country right off the bat. Let's talk a little bit about, okay, so everybody knows World War I. There's kind of this like arms race a little bit, but we're before that. And I wanna talk a little bit about Germany feeling like it's kind of beset by these larger entities and how that might have influenced their desire to, uh, arm themselves or get weapons or a military kind of militarizing.
How did that impact that feeling? Um, so basically, you know, we were talking about the idea that the other surrounding states aren't entirely happy about Germany being there, and so obviously [00:10:00] Germany also realizes that in the center of Europe and that if the other states were all to work together, this is again, this kind of nap trauma to, to some extent.
Then they're surrounding Germany. So this, this is called the Nightmare of Encirclement, or the idea of encirclement is that Germany is basically surrounded by enemies. That's how people. Think of it. So what they, uh, obsess about is the idea, what happens if we are going to fight a two front wall one day, you know?
And the idea is to avoid that. So they start war gaming, they start coming up with, um, you know, kind of a really strong push towards, uh, militarization and also to build a navy, which was not something that Germany, all kind of German states, largely landlocked states had previously. Yeah. Invested a lot of thought.
Brought into. So all of a sudden you get a massive buildup of military, of, um, of a naval program. And at the same time, there's the elites and the military elites in particular start come up with plans as to what they would do if they were to go to war. So [00:11:00] mentally they're getting themselves into a state where, where that's a normal hold up.
One day they're going to get attacked, so they might as well prepare for it. Makes sense. And so you end up with makes sense, a militarized society as a result. Yeah, and it, it, it seems kind of natural for a newly formed country, but that would be awfully terrifying for France and Britain. That would definitely put them on edge.
Uh, can you talk a little bit about some of the, what readers might see some of the struggles of a newly formed Germany, just kind of an overall picture of what they might see. Yeah, so that this, uh, foreign political challenge is one of those. So the idea that, you know, they, they feel that they're surrounded by enemies.
They, France is season happy, having just been defeated by, by Prussia and with the other German allies. So basically Ottawa, Bismark, the chancellor, realizes that and he's driving a really strong peace policy, a really complicated network or kind of foreign political alliances, making some enemies, making some [00:12:00] friends.
He's very clever in building up this, this kind of European. Um, network that nobody else understands. So when he goes eventually after a two decades, pretty much in, in charge, then you know, the whole thing collapses. And that's what leads up to the, to the first World War. But that's one big challenge is making this German thing survive that has just been created.
Um, oh yeah. And then the internal differences are also massive. So especially the religious divide is huge. So ma many Catholics, they only form about a third of the. Of population, they feel that they're being attacked and Bismarck actually does attack them because he is worried similar again, as, as happens in the US as well.
There's this kind of idea that, you know, the Pope is interfering in Catland as strongly bound to the, to the nation and as they would be, what if the Pope says, don't go to war, but your country says go to war. You know? Right. And then this idea that that Catholics have got other. Um, sort of moral authorities elsewhere outside of the country, keeping Bismarck awake.
So he fights the [00:13:00] struggle against them. That's a big issue. Uh, wealth divides are massive. It's a, it is an industrial revolution that is going on. So you have lots and lots of workers who move to the cities into, uh, terrible tenement housing, very small, cramped, uh, damp, often flats that they live in. So social problems are huge.
Um, it's, oh yeah, it's a mess, basically. So they need, they need unifying factors and that's what, um, is bismark's priority basically to try set up some sort of unified nation. And for our listeners who might have heard of Audubon Bismarck, but not necessarily know a lot about like who he was, can you just give us an overview of who he was?
Yeah, so Bismarck, um, was the first German chancellor and is also the person who basically unifies, um, under his own policies. He was previously the prime minister of Prussia and uses that position to try and new Germany under Prussian. Leadership. So he's often been, as much as Germany has a [00:14:00] founding father, I guess he's, he's it, um, in that he makes this whole thing happen.
And he's also a bit of a, um, you know, sort of maverick if you will. So he grows up basically being quiet. He's the second son of, of a minor aristocrat. So initially he's totally like, what am I gonna do with my life? I'm not gonna inherit the estate. You know, and he tries to find a passion for a long time.
And in the process there's a lot of drinking. And womanizing and gambling just gets lost a little bit. Um, then just a little bit. Yeah. He's actually called the crazy yoker by his neighbors, you as a, as a word for Prussian aristocrat. And he is like the crazy one basically. Um, and then he is quite lucky in that, uh, appell.
Parliamentarian gets ill in the Prussian parliament. He's supposed to step in as the local aristocrat, and then he finds suddenly absolutely loves the kind of, you know, backroom intrigues, the backstabbing, the forging alliance. It's the dirty business of politics, the house, the House of Cards kind of stuff.
He loves that. And so basically comes home and says to his wife, do you [00:15:00] know what I've, I've just found mine. My calling, um, this is what I want to do in my life. And then you kind of see him climb up the, the political ladder. Um, and eventually, because he's the one who unifies Germany, and the Prussian King is a little bit frightened about what's just been created.
And he goes, you know what? I wanna be Prussian king, not German, Kaiser. And Bismark says, don't worry about it. I'll run the shop for you and effectively up, um, you know, being indispensable. Nobody would know. Yeah. How does Germany would basically work and operate live without him and he knows it. Yeah. So that's what human power for, for whole.
Um, sort of first two, two decades of, of Germany. Yeah. So is that still a view held today, looking back in retrospect that this German unification couldn't have happened without Audubon Bismarck? Well, it could, but it would, and, and other people were pushing for it, but it wouldn't have happened when it happened, and now it happened.
So he himself said, still in the, in the 1860s, just a few years before it happens, he still says, [00:16:00] uh, in a letter to a, to a friend that he doesn't think that it's gonna happen this century. So he himself thinks it's still. Still gonna be sort of decades off. Yeah. And then when the opportunity arises to effectively provoke the three wars that end up unifying Germans against other countries, he takes it and provokes these wars and, and basically does that.
So he's a bit of a controversial figure today. I mean, there are people, when I was at school, um, sort of in the ninth in Germany, he was still presented to me by teachers as a sort of political genius who, you know, brings all these things about and. Because later on he also introduces the welfare state, you know, unemployment and the things, health insurance, pensions, you know, they're all new things at this point and he introduces them.
So that's kind of often, um, you know, used as a means of saying modern Germany. I. Was created by him. Um, but then also he does all of that basically by, as he puts it, blood and iron, which is why my book's called that as well. That's sort of his words. Yeah. [00:17:00] Where he says, you know, we need to unify Germany, not by, you know, democratic nice niceties, or by by talking about things we need to have war.
To unify the German people, and that's why he's a, he's a very controversial figure today. Um, and also Germany acquires its first colonies when, when he's still in power. He doesn't like the idea, um, and says from the beginning, colonies aren't worth it. The world's already divided up between sort of Britain and France and the other colonial powers.
Um, and which. Just gonna aggravate everybody, but, um, gen industrialists just go ahead and buy plot land. And then suddenly they found out that actually the local people there don't really want to be run by a colonial power. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna, you know, obviously rebel against it. And then they go and ask Bismark for help and say, can, can the state please help us here and send out some, some soldiers and ships and things.
And at that point, Bismark steps in. So it's again, something, you know, as Germany discovers its own version of the culture wars that. Yeah. Is now a bigger topic than it [00:18:00] was. Yeah. And I love how you're, you know, you talk about how he's controversial because he really, he really is, even today where you go, okay, he did welfare and he's a unifier and he's got all this political acumen, if you want to not say genius, but you can say acumen.
Um, but he also is sometimes called authoritarian. And how is that viewed in Germany today? Do people think of him as a. Partially authoritarian figure. Yeah, they do. I mean, there's a, there was a debate a few years ago around how democratic this state actually was that it created, because it is a halfway house, effectively, it does have a parliament.
Um, and that parliament, unlike in many other European state states, is actually elected for. By all men at this point. But again, that's normal in the, well, when I say normal, it's kind of the, the standard in the 19th century, but it is mm-hmm. Without class differences, without wealth differences, every male's voice counts exactly the same and they can [00:19:00] all voice.
That's a big deal. So at that time, time, it is a parliament, basically as democratic as it gets in the, in the late 19th century. Um, but that parliament is still headed by, um, or there's still a monarch basically sitting at the top of it. Everything, the Kaiser, um, who's always the, the Prussian King. So the, basically the head of state is still, um, an unelected, hereditary monarch, and that's the sort balance and the, and the chancellor.
So auto from Bismark himself basically ends up. As the mediator, but these sort of old aristocratic elites, trying to keep them in power, trying to keep in their status and bring the people as much democracy as they need so that they don't rebel. Because that had happened several times in the 19th century and even he, not a Democrat himself at heart at all, he, he doesn't introduce this parliament because he thinks it's a good idea.
He does it because he realizes otherwise you're gonna have a rebellion on you. So that's why he is so controversial. This kind of question of him just being. [00:20:00] Cynical, really kind of saying, oh, you know, the people need enough democracy to be pacified, but not so much that they actually get a kind of complete say.
Yeah, not quite a democracy, not quite a full monarchy. It is very interesting. And um, you know what's crazy is when you look around Europe and the first few decades of the 19th century, everything is in turmoil. There's so many revolutions and so many huge changes. How much of. Uh, Germany going through its unifying first steps, do you think kinda rippled out into causing other chaos in Europe around that time, do you think?
I. Well, some of the, I would say mostly before unification, some of the ideas that, uh, kind of come out of this German chaos and also the misery that, that the industrial revolution has, has caused mm-hmm. Uh, have a huge impact. So you do have the idea that actually nation states [00:21:00] are supposed to be liberal constructs. So the, you know, of nationalism today as a. Right wing thing. Mm-hmm. But at the time, the whole point was to have a. A state so that the monarch doesn't have all the power so that you can have a constitution that everybody needs it to.
Yeah. Uh, so then, you know, whether you're rich or poor, everybody sticks to the same laws. And for that you need a space in which these laws apply. So the whole point at the time was that liberalism was a, a modern and liberal concept as well that comes out of that chaos. So I would say yes, things that that happen kind of in the center and of Europe and including Germany, do kind of spill over and have a wider effect elsewhere.
Yeah. All these revolutions everywhere and just, it's a wild few decades. Uh, the 19th century in Europe is wild. The more you look at different countries. You're like, here, two. Here, two really what, like what is in the water? Um, but that, yeah, I think it all kind of affected each other. So, um, all right. Let's, let's bring it closer to [00:22:00] Wilhelm ii, Bismarck and Wilhelm.
Can you just. Give us a brief overview. Who was wil hum? I second. Yeah. So when Bismarck unifies Germany, the Kaiser is villain the first, so he's the first woman. Ah, yes, yes. Uh, chancellor, uh, ki Kaiser, sorry. So the, the emperor and then he's very old, so people don't expect him to live very long. And, but he does, uh, surprisingly so he's already very.
Old and then basically died in 1888. So he rules from 1871 to 1888. The idea is that it goes on to his son. Um, we speak the third, but he's very ill. He already has, uh, throat cancer by the time that he comes into power in 1888, and he can't even speak. During rain, he's that ill, um, already so people know that's not going to live long.
Uh, interestingly though that Frederick third is married to Queen Victoria's oldest daughter, Vicki, um, that's the English or British Queen, and she has this idea of making, making Germany just as liberal as [00:23:00] Britain is point, so is getting kind of modernized. So she wants to bring in all of these liberal ideas from Britain.
Mm. And influence her German Kaiser husband to, to sort of implement them in Germany and within a hundred days. Uh, and then it goes over to his, their son rather. Um, and that's within the second, therefore also Queen Victoria's oldest grandson. So that connection still stays in. Its important for the, for the first World War?
Yes. Um, because he does look to Britain as part of his, you know, sort of family, his horizon, and he always compares his own Germany to, to Britain and wants to. Uh, sort of rival Britain in, in terms of its, um, navy particular, but that's basically where, why we are jumping one generation 88 is called the three Kaiser year because you kind of go from the first to F Fred Fredrick son Frederick, and then to his grandson, Villa second.
And, you know, I, without going too much into it, 'cause I think people really should read the book. What they, why didn't [00:24:00] Bismarck and willam like each other very much? Yeah, so I mean, I mean, to put it lightly, yeah. I mean, Bismarck tries to set up this entire, I mean, let's not forget, he basically wrote the Constitution.
He writes this for himself, and the idea is to, you have a, you have a Kaiser who's basically the, the head of the state, and then you got his manager. If you. You will, and that's the chancellor. So it meant like a shop owner and then the shopkeeper. That's how Bismark sets it up. But you can't have them both having different ideas as to how to run the shop.
They both have to be in unison. Ideally, Bismark thought, I'm the manager. I run the shop. And the shop key, but the shop owner can basically just sit back and not get involved, you know, and just, just enjoy the, enjoy being the the head in theory. Yeah, sure, sure. That'll work. So he thinks the same. Well, it did work for about two decades, and then basically Belinda second takes over the shop and says, action.
I have. A much better idea what we're going to do here. Mm-hmm. I want to risk everything. I wanna run it in a different way. I wanna [00:25:00] rebrand it as well. And also, I don't need a manager, you know, at that point, the two of them, yeah. Fall out with each, because, uh, Bismarck basically imagines, you know, Villa is young, he is only in his twenties.
Um, he imagines that, um, he's gonna be a mentor and father forget to him because he had. Bill when he was a, a prince. Um, and, you know, father and his grandfather are dead. So the idea is that Bismark, you know, who had just run the country successfully for, for that long would kind of be the, the person really calling the shots.
And at the very least, mentor vi him until he can do it himself and has has other ideas. He's young, he comes in, he used to do things differently. And so the two men, yeah. Clash. And there isn't space in the system for the two people to run, um, the country at the same time. I can't imagine what would've happened if they were on the same page, uh, how that could have affected World War I and all of that.
And because Wilham really did, he, he had a chip [00:26:00] on his shoulder too, you know, with the deformity and with feeling like, oh, I have to live up to my ancestors and this image of strong militarism. And that is interesting. I love how you. Describe it as a shopkeeper and the manager that is so perfect to really understand these kind of complicated relationship.
Um, how would you say things were holding up with German identity by the time World War I breaks out, I mean, Villa is a good example. He was a kid when Germany reunified and he's really the first generation, grew up with Germany being a normal thing, you know, for him. It was kind of always there. Yes, he has vague memory, the actual unification process, but really by the time that was a young adult, Germany was already a thing, a concept.
And people who grew up in that generation, there's lots of them because, um, the economy is soaring and so [00:27:00] more and more people have children. You get a massive boom in the population. So there's many more young people than older people. And as a result of that, there's now each generation. Of young Germans who were born into the state and who, who think this is a normal thing.
Uh, and they don't try and get their head around that. So that's naturally a process whereby kind of Germans feel more and more German at this stage, um, because they, it's just there. It's, it's the world that they, they grow up. Um, so by the time that 1914 happens though, so when the First World War breaks out, Germans feel German, but they're still massively divided, particularly on wealth.
Um, because that doesn't go away. Yeah. It still have a massive, massive working class in the cities. It's getting more politicized because socialism is in the air as an idea. Um, you have a, you have a, um, quite a socialist leaning social democratic party. Uh, they are reformers rather than revolutionaries, so they just want to bring about change rather than actually, um, having a revolution.
But the idea is still [00:28:00] around because there's only one wing party and everybody is in it. So that's about, um, you've still got the old aristocracy panicking because they think, what about our status as we're getting sort of sidelined here. Mm-hmm. Uh, we are losing status and wealth.
You've got the middle class is saying, we, the empire, we don't really care what other countries think about that. We want to carry on with that. So there's a huge clash there and em sees the chance when war is sort of up in the air and it's, it's sort of something, a tension is spilling over in Europe. He thinks this is a good moment to unify Germans once again as it happened in 1815 and during the UN Uniform wars to unify all these people together under the banner of being Germans first and foremost, rather than, you know, Avarian or Catholic or an Democrat or or working in class person.
So he seizes that chance and thinks, let's nap night or under one banner, and they use this term called Fortress Peace Frieda. Which basically is like a medieval race. The idea that if your castle gets [00:29:00] attacked or your fortress gets attacked, everybody in it needs a wobbling and just everybody gets out and, and defend parcel because everybody has an interest in not being invaded.
So that's effectively the spirit under which, um, kind of Germans unite in, in 1914. And it seems to work initially. Um, they will kind of agree trade unions, for example, immediate. Agreed to just say, okay, we'll just stop stringing and, and we'll be with you. Um, and it works with interesting. It's fascinating.
Now what other kind of, so we have like the industrialization and the more rural types, and then we have this huge wealth gap with the aristocrats and everybody else, basically. Were there other kinds of culture clashes going on at the time that are maybe less well known? Um, there's a, a burgeoning women's movement.
Um, as well as there are plenty of women who, uh, basically say they vote. So that's more of a, more of a middle class thing I would say.
And then you have a working class women's movement at the same people pushing [00:30:00] for better working conditions, same wages. Yeah. Um, and so on and so forth.
There's also, um, the. Sort of more the urban and and rural divide as well. So there are plenty of people who think that they're kind of cut off from. From the cultural developments that are going on, you have, you know, new cinema and new and new kind of culture and, and quite a modern, uh, things like, you know, modern art that's beginning to develop those kinds of things.
And people in the countryside are cut off from that. And I look down upon often, um, because if you haven't got a train line, say you're being established, oh, you're cut off from all of that and, and you know, right. Yeah. So. This is also something that I think is neglected for too long, and that the right is often able, the political right is often able to, uh, kind of use in the sense that, you know, they, they can speak to these farmers and, and people in rural areas and say, you know, we're looking after your, your interests.
Um, so that's also a big divide, really every, every parameter that you can think of. There's quite a stark [00:31:00] polarization going on before 1914. Yeah. Yes, this, uh, this is so fascinating. If you are interested in before the World War I politics and kind of maybe what led up to it, I would definitely recommend this book again.
It's Blood and Iron, the Rise and Fall of the German Empire, 1871 to 1918, and it is by Katja Hoyer. Um, I wanna thank you again so much for coming on the show and answering all these questions. Thank you.
And we talk about everything about before, during, and after war. So let's go!
Welcome to the Why Wars Happened History podcast where we have narrated history episodes, and we also have episodes where we sit down with historians, filmmakers, authors, politicians, and we talk about wars in history. Today's guest is Katja Hoyer.
She is a German born British historian and journalist. Uh, she is a visiting research fellow at King's College [00:01:00] London, and a fellow of the Royal Historical Society, which is. Really impressive. Um, and she's written multiple publications and co-host the podcast, the New Germany. And she's also author of today's book, which is widely acclaimed.
Uh, it's called Blood and Iron, the Rise and Fall of the German Empire, 1871 to 1918. Katja, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. Yes. So you know all about, you're actually from Germany and you're really a good person to talk to about what it feels like, kind of the German psyche a little bit.
Um, can you set it so you open up in 1815. Why 1815? Let's just start with that. Set the table a little bit. Yeah, I cheated a bit there because on the book cover it says that I start in 1871, which is when Germany is basically founded as a, as a country. Yeah. Um, but I do, I, I sort of felt when I was thinking about how to write the book, that I [00:02:00] had to go back a little bit because just can't understand how that country's come about without going back to 1815 at least.
Yes. Um, and this has been. Because basically before that time, um, Germany didn't really even exist as a concept. There were just over 400 little sort of states and city states and kingdoms and principalities and lots of, it was like a patchwork of, of German speaking, sort of political entities on the map.
And then Napoleon comes along and basically. The French emperor, um, the spaces and thinks to themself that this isn't exactly easy to control or, or to hold, to try and negotiate with, with all of these little sort of rulers and things and so on. Yeah. And so he basically sums this entire area up into slightly larger Unity comes unit.
He comes up with 38 states in the end. Um. Um, and basically that that's easier to manage. Um, and so this is really the first moment you get some sort of, um, sense of German unification, [00:03:00] ironically brought about Byman. Um, but it is an important moment and it also gives the Germans the idea that, uh. Um, because they end up 1815 beating Napoleon in a, in a sort of grand coalition, um, in which Prussia was the, the sort of leading military power.
Uh, but they're fighting together against Napoleon. And this is, this is basically setting the scene really for what we see later this year that Germans are stronger when, when they're fighting together. And it's an idea that we'll see. Yeah, kind of time and time again. Yeah. And it's so interesting. So you bring up Napoleon, right?
And so they're like, okay, that the whole French revolution really freaked everybody out in Europe, all the major powers. They're like, wow, this could come for us. And then now you have fast forward a little bit, now you have the German states kind of unifying and it freaked them out a little bit again. Uh, the major powers in Europe.
Can you tell us a little bit about their. Like reactions from those major powers as Germany Unified? Was it scary for them? [00:04:00] Yeah, I mean, it, it certainly was in the sense that, uh, it completely through the, this very fragile power balance that you had in Europe, people sometimes call it the concert of Europe because it was so finely tuned all of these different players in it basically that it just about kept the piece.
Um, the, the Brits always thought of the sort of balance of power and suddenly Germany unifies right in the center of, of all of this and creates the single largest state. On in, in Europe, on the continent. Um, and that of course, overnight, you know, completely this power balances are kilter and people are worried about that, and especially France, um, because this is usually based on anti French sentiment at this point.
Germans haven't got much to unify them at this stage other than their, their language, but that's a very vague, hazy, nice to have sort of thing. You know, what really unifies them is. Is that they're worried about French aggression does help that. The second time around in the, in the 1860s, the [00:05:00] French rulers, once again a Napoleon, Napoleon iii.
And so really you can play on all of these anxieties and the hostilities, and that's what unifies Germans, um, at this point. So yes, the rest of Europe is quite worried about that. Uh, yeah. And so like Prussia was a big deal before Germany became a country and it kind of got absorbed into Germany a little bit.
Was it kinda like trading a smaller big power for this like crazy big German power all of a sudden? Like a difference there? Um, yeah. I mean it's almost the other way around. So Prussia basically wanted to expand its influence over the other German state. States and it assumed that, uh, there was only so much you could do by kind of forcing the other states into its, into its remit, and it did that.
So some of them were just annexed just by the sheer kind of, you know, military power that that pressure had. But it also wanted to make sure that it could expand its influence over the entire, uh, kind of German speaking world in, in [00:06:00] Europe. And the way to do that was no fire. Germany, but under leadership, so that basically some, some people even call it Prussia, Germany, this kind of first German state.
Yeah. It is basically run by by Prussia. And that that kind of adds to the, occasionally on the podcast Prussia comes up and it's always this funny kinda thing of, well, what the hell even is Prussia? Is it a kingdom? Is it an area, is it a state? And it's kind of all of it. But now we're talking about prsa Germany and it just gets like these layers of confusion for people not from that area.
I feel like. So, depends on when you're talking about, that's pressure was a lot of things. Um. Yeah, mean, the easiest way to think about it just in one sentence is just that it's the northern part of Germany effectively, and it stretched all the way along the Baltic coast into what is now Poland and, and a bit of Russia as well.
But it was the northern stretch of of continental Europe. Really? Where yeah, where it was. It doesn't help that it was [00:07:00] actually destroyed and, and kind of, you know, it's not there anymore. So people yeah. Don't really have a way of, of envisioning it today because it was abolished in, in 18, in 1947 after the second World War. Mm-hmm. Yes. And so, okay, so you have all this kinda mishmash of.
People, maybe different cultures from the different states, kind of unified a little bit, but you have, you know, um, Catholics, Protestants, uh, industrializing areas mixed with rural areas. And did, did the German people at the time think, yeah, this will last? Or were they kind of skeptical about that? Well, most didn't feel that being German was sort of their, their first thing on their identity list.
As you say, people would say, well, you know, I'm, I'm a Catholic, or I'm a Protestant, or I'm from the Rhineland, or I'm from Bavaria. You know, these were like, their, their sort of points of identity. So, um, it's not like 1871 comes, [00:08:00] Germany is founded and everyone thinks I'm German now, first almost, but. Yeah, there was a, there was an overarching sense.
This is mostly brought about by the idea that they were fighting other people to get there. So there were three wars of unification and at each time, basically. You know, this, this kind of co bigger and bigger until it was, uh, unified under the kind of name or label of Germany in 1871. Yeah. So there is a sense that's part of their identity already, but really the, that has merged over time and, and the rulers.
I think Han Bismark, the first German chancellor was sort of head of government, is quite aware of that. And he, I would say similar to the US really in lots of ways. He does know that people are a bit wary of kind of centralized power. So he creates a federal. State and says from the beginning, yes, you can still, still Bavarian Bavaria will still exist as an entity, say or does pr Yeah, within this construct.
So you can be both Bavarian and and German at the same time within this federal state. And that's how it [00:09:00] works. That's so interesting and you know, it seems like very normal that that's how the over in America too, that's how our uh, country people weren't like, we're American. They're like, I am North Carolina, or I'm Georgian.
Like, it was very much the same way. So it seems kind of normal. Um, it's not identify with your country right off the bat. Let's talk a little bit about, okay, so everybody knows World War I. There's kind of this like arms race a little bit, but we're before that. And I wanna talk a little bit about Germany feeling like it's kind of beset by these larger entities and how that might have influenced their desire to, uh, arm themselves or get weapons or a military kind of militarizing.
How did that impact that feeling? Um, so basically, you know, we were talking about the idea that the other surrounding states aren't entirely happy about Germany being there, and so obviously [00:10:00] Germany also realizes that in the center of Europe and that if the other states were all to work together, this is again, this kind of nap trauma to, to some extent.
Then they're surrounding Germany. So this, this is called the Nightmare of Encirclement, or the idea of encirclement is that Germany is basically surrounded by enemies. That's how people. Think of it. So what they, uh, obsess about is the idea, what happens if we are going to fight a two front wall one day, you know?
And the idea is to avoid that. So they start war gaming, they start coming up with, um, you know, kind of a really strong push towards, uh, militarization and also to build a navy, which was not something that Germany, all kind of German states, largely landlocked states had previously. Yeah. Invested a lot of thought.
Brought into. So all of a sudden you get a massive buildup of military, of, um, of a naval program. And at the same time, there's the elites and the military elites in particular start come up with plans as to what they would do if they were to go to war. So [00:11:00] mentally they're getting themselves into a state where, where that's a normal hold up.
One day they're going to get attacked, so they might as well prepare for it. Makes sense. And so you end up with makes sense, a militarized society as a result. Yeah, and it, it, it seems kind of natural for a newly formed country, but that would be awfully terrifying for France and Britain. That would definitely put them on edge.
Uh, can you talk a little bit about some of the, what readers might see some of the struggles of a newly formed Germany, just kind of an overall picture of what they might see. Yeah, so that this, uh, foreign political challenge is one of those. So the idea that, you know, they, they feel that they're surrounded by enemies.
They, France is season happy, having just been defeated by, by Prussia and with the other German allies. So basically Ottawa, Bismark, the chancellor, realizes that and he's driving a really strong peace policy, a really complicated network or kind of foreign political alliances, making some enemies, making some [00:12:00] friends.
He's very clever in building up this, this kind of European. Um, network that nobody else understands. So when he goes eventually after a two decades, pretty much in, in charge, then you know, the whole thing collapses. And that's what leads up to the, to the first World War. But that's one big challenge is making this German thing survive that has just been created.
Um, oh yeah. And then the internal differences are also massive. So especially the religious divide is huge. So ma many Catholics, they only form about a third of the. Of population, they feel that they're being attacked and Bismarck actually does attack them because he is worried similar again, as, as happens in the US as well.
There's this kind of idea that, you know, the Pope is interfering in Catland as strongly bound to the, to the nation and as they would be, what if the Pope says, don't go to war, but your country says go to war. You know? Right. And then this idea that that Catholics have got other. Um, sort of moral authorities elsewhere outside of the country, keeping Bismarck awake.
So he fights the [00:13:00] struggle against them. That's a big issue. Uh, wealth divides are massive. It's a, it is an industrial revolution that is going on. So you have lots and lots of workers who move to the cities into, uh, terrible tenement housing, very small, cramped, uh, damp, often flats that they live in. So social problems are huge.
Um, it's, oh yeah, it's a mess, basically. So they need, they need unifying factors and that's what, um, is bismark's priority basically to try set up some sort of unified nation. And for our listeners who might have heard of Audubon Bismarck, but not necessarily know a lot about like who he was, can you just give us an overview of who he was?
Yeah, so Bismarck, um, was the first German chancellor and is also the person who basically unifies, um, under his own policies. He was previously the prime minister of Prussia and uses that position to try and new Germany under Prussian. Leadership. So he's often been, as much as Germany has a [00:14:00] founding father, I guess he's, he's it, um, in that he makes this whole thing happen.
And he's also a bit of a, um, you know, sort of maverick if you will. So he grows up basically being quiet. He's the second son of, of a minor aristocrat. So initially he's totally like, what am I gonna do with my life? I'm not gonna inherit the estate. You know, and he tries to find a passion for a long time.
And in the process there's a lot of drinking. And womanizing and gambling just gets lost a little bit. Um, then just a little bit. Yeah. He's actually called the crazy yoker by his neighbors, you as a, as a word for Prussian aristocrat. And he is like the crazy one basically. Um, and then he is quite lucky in that, uh, appell.
Parliamentarian gets ill in the Prussian parliament. He's supposed to step in as the local aristocrat, and then he finds suddenly absolutely loves the kind of, you know, backroom intrigues, the backstabbing, the forging alliance. It's the dirty business of politics, the house, the House of Cards kind of stuff.
He loves that. And so basically comes home and says to his wife, do you [00:15:00] know what I've, I've just found mine. My calling, um, this is what I want to do in my life. And then you kind of see him climb up the, the political ladder. Um, and eventually, because he's the one who unifies Germany, and the Prussian King is a little bit frightened about what's just been created.
And he goes, you know what? I wanna be Prussian king, not German, Kaiser. And Bismark says, don't worry about it. I'll run the shop for you and effectively up, um, you know, being indispensable. Nobody would know. Yeah. How does Germany would basically work and operate live without him and he knows it. Yeah. So that's what human power for, for whole.
Um, sort of first two, two decades of, of Germany. Yeah. So is that still a view held today, looking back in retrospect that this German unification couldn't have happened without Audubon Bismarck? Well, it could, but it would, and, and other people were pushing for it, but it wouldn't have happened when it happened, and now it happened.
So he himself said, still in the, in the 1860s, just a few years before it happens, he still says, [00:16:00] uh, in a letter to a, to a friend that he doesn't think that it's gonna happen this century. So he himself thinks it's still. Still gonna be sort of decades off. Yeah. And then when the opportunity arises to effectively provoke the three wars that end up unifying Germans against other countries, he takes it and provokes these wars and, and basically does that.
So he's a bit of a controversial figure today. I mean, there are people, when I was at school, um, sort of in the ninth in Germany, he was still presented to me by teachers as a sort of political genius who, you know, brings all these things about and. Because later on he also introduces the welfare state, you know, unemployment and the things, health insurance, pensions, you know, they're all new things at this point and he introduces them.
So that's kind of often, um, you know, used as a means of saying modern Germany. I. Was created by him. Um, but then also he does all of that basically by, as he puts it, blood and iron, which is why my book's called that as well. That's sort of his words. Yeah. [00:17:00] Where he says, you know, we need to unify Germany, not by, you know, democratic nice niceties, or by by talking about things we need to have war.
To unify the German people, and that's why he's a, he's a very controversial figure today. Um, and also Germany acquires its first colonies when, when he's still in power. He doesn't like the idea, um, and says from the beginning, colonies aren't worth it. The world's already divided up between sort of Britain and France and the other colonial powers.
Um, and which. Just gonna aggravate everybody, but, um, gen industrialists just go ahead and buy plot land. And then suddenly they found out that actually the local people there don't really want to be run by a colonial power. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna, you know, obviously rebel against it. And then they go and ask Bismark for help and say, can, can the state please help us here and send out some, some soldiers and ships and things.
And at that point, Bismark steps in. So it's again, something, you know, as Germany discovers its own version of the culture wars that. Yeah. Is now a bigger topic than it [00:18:00] was. Yeah. And I love how you're, you know, you talk about how he's controversial because he really, he really is, even today where you go, okay, he did welfare and he's a unifier and he's got all this political acumen, if you want to not say genius, but you can say acumen.
Um, but he also is sometimes called authoritarian. And how is that viewed in Germany today? Do people think of him as a. Partially authoritarian figure. Yeah, they do. I mean, there's a, there was a debate a few years ago around how democratic this state actually was that it created, because it is a halfway house, effectively, it does have a parliament.
Um, and that parliament, unlike in many other European state states, is actually elected for. By all men at this point. But again, that's normal in the, well, when I say normal, it's kind of the, the standard in the 19th century, but it is mm-hmm. Without class differences, without wealth differences, every male's voice counts exactly the same and they can [00:19:00] all voice.
That's a big deal. So at that time, time, it is a parliament, basically as democratic as it gets in the, in the late 19th century. Um, but that parliament is still headed by, um, or there's still a monarch basically sitting at the top of it. Everything, the Kaiser, um, who's always the, the Prussian King. So the, basically the head of state is still, um, an unelected, hereditary monarch, and that's the sort balance and the, and the chancellor.
So auto from Bismark himself basically ends up. As the mediator, but these sort of old aristocratic elites, trying to keep them in power, trying to keep in their status and bring the people as much democracy as they need so that they don't rebel. Because that had happened several times in the 19th century and even he, not a Democrat himself at heart at all, he, he doesn't introduce this parliament because he thinks it's a good idea.
He does it because he realizes otherwise you're gonna have a rebellion on you. So that's why he is so controversial. This kind of question of him just being. [00:20:00] Cynical, really kind of saying, oh, you know, the people need enough democracy to be pacified, but not so much that they actually get a kind of complete say.
Yeah, not quite a democracy, not quite a full monarchy. It is very interesting. And um, you know what's crazy is when you look around Europe and the first few decades of the 19th century, everything is in turmoil. There's so many revolutions and so many huge changes. How much of. Uh, Germany going through its unifying first steps, do you think kinda rippled out into causing other chaos in Europe around that time, do you think?
I. Well, some of the, I would say mostly before unification, some of the ideas that, uh, kind of come out of this German chaos and also the misery that, that the industrial revolution has, has caused mm-hmm. Uh, have a huge impact. So you do have the idea that actually nation states [00:21:00] are supposed to be liberal constructs. So the, you know, of nationalism today as a. Right wing thing. Mm-hmm. But at the time, the whole point was to have a. A state so that the monarch doesn't have all the power so that you can have a constitution that everybody needs it to.
Yeah. Uh, so then, you know, whether you're rich or poor, everybody sticks to the same laws. And for that you need a space in which these laws apply. So the whole point at the time was that liberalism was a, a modern and liberal concept as well that comes out of that chaos. So I would say yes, things that that happen kind of in the center and of Europe and including Germany, do kind of spill over and have a wider effect elsewhere.
Yeah. All these revolutions everywhere and just, it's a wild few decades. Uh, the 19th century in Europe is wild. The more you look at different countries. You're like, here, two. Here, two really what, like what is in the water? Um, but that, yeah, I think it all kind of affected each other. So, um, all right. Let's, let's bring it closer to [00:22:00] Wilhelm ii, Bismarck and Wilhelm.
Can you just. Give us a brief overview. Who was wil hum? I second. Yeah. So when Bismarck unifies Germany, the Kaiser is villain the first, so he's the first woman. Ah, yes, yes. Uh, chancellor, uh, ki Kaiser, sorry. So the, the emperor and then he's very old, so people don't expect him to live very long. And, but he does, uh, surprisingly so he's already very.
Old and then basically died in 1888. So he rules from 1871 to 1888. The idea is that it goes on to his son. Um, we speak the third, but he's very ill. He already has, uh, throat cancer by the time that he comes into power in 1888, and he can't even speak. During rain, he's that ill, um, already so people know that's not going to live long.
Uh, interestingly though that Frederick third is married to Queen Victoria's oldest daughter, Vicki, um, that's the English or British Queen, and she has this idea of making, making Germany just as liberal as [00:23:00] Britain is point, so is getting kind of modernized. So she wants to bring in all of these liberal ideas from Britain.
Mm. And influence her German Kaiser husband to, to sort of implement them in Germany and within a hundred days. Uh, and then it goes over to his, their son rather. Um, and that's within the second, therefore also Queen Victoria's oldest grandson. So that connection still stays in. Its important for the, for the first World War?
Yes. Um, because he does look to Britain as part of his, you know, sort of family, his horizon, and he always compares his own Germany to, to Britain and wants to. Uh, sort of rival Britain in, in terms of its, um, navy particular, but that's basically where, why we are jumping one generation 88 is called the three Kaiser year because you kind of go from the first to F Fred Fredrick son Frederick, and then to his grandson, Villa second.
And, you know, I, without going too much into it, 'cause I think people really should read the book. What they, why didn't [00:24:00] Bismarck and willam like each other very much? Yeah, so I mean, I mean, to put it lightly, yeah. I mean, Bismarck tries to set up this entire, I mean, let's not forget, he basically wrote the Constitution.
He writes this for himself, and the idea is to, you have a, you have a Kaiser who's basically the, the head of the state, and then you got his manager. If you. You will, and that's the chancellor. So it meant like a shop owner and then the shopkeeper. That's how Bismark sets it up. But you can't have them both having different ideas as to how to run the shop.
They both have to be in unison. Ideally, Bismark thought, I'm the manager. I run the shop. And the shop key, but the shop owner can basically just sit back and not get involved, you know, and just, just enjoy the, enjoy being the the head in theory. Yeah, sure, sure. That'll work. So he thinks the same. Well, it did work for about two decades, and then basically Belinda second takes over the shop and says, action.
I have. A much better idea what we're going to do here. Mm-hmm. I want to risk everything. I wanna run it in a different way. I wanna [00:25:00] rebrand it as well. And also, I don't need a manager, you know, at that point, the two of them, yeah. Fall out with each, because, uh, Bismarck basically imagines, you know, Villa is young, he is only in his twenties.
Um, he imagines that, um, he's gonna be a mentor and father forget to him because he had. Bill when he was a, a prince. Um, and, you know, father and his grandfather are dead. So the idea is that Bismark, you know, who had just run the country successfully for, for that long would kind of be the, the person really calling the shots.
And at the very least, mentor vi him until he can do it himself and has has other ideas. He's young, he comes in, he used to do things differently. And so the two men, yeah. Clash. And there isn't space in the system for the two people to run, um, the country at the same time. I can't imagine what would've happened if they were on the same page, uh, how that could have affected World War I and all of that.
And because Wilham really did, he, he had a chip [00:26:00] on his shoulder too, you know, with the deformity and with feeling like, oh, I have to live up to my ancestors and this image of strong militarism. And that is interesting. I love how you. Describe it as a shopkeeper and the manager that is so perfect to really understand these kind of complicated relationship.
Um, how would you say things were holding up with German identity by the time World War I breaks out, I mean, Villa is a good example. He was a kid when Germany reunified and he's really the first generation, grew up with Germany being a normal thing, you know, for him. It was kind of always there. Yes, he has vague memory, the actual unification process, but really by the time that was a young adult, Germany was already a thing, a concept.
And people who grew up in that generation, there's lots of them because, um, the economy is soaring and so [00:27:00] more and more people have children. You get a massive boom in the population. So there's many more young people than older people. And as a result of that, there's now each generation. Of young Germans who were born into the state and who, who think this is a normal thing.
Uh, and they don't try and get their head around that. So that's naturally a process whereby kind of Germans feel more and more German at this stage, um, because they, it's just there. It's, it's the world that they, they grow up. Um, so by the time that 1914 happens though, so when the First World War breaks out, Germans feel German, but they're still massively divided, particularly on wealth.
Um, because that doesn't go away. Yeah. It still have a massive, massive working class in the cities. It's getting more politicized because socialism is in the air as an idea. Um, you have a, you have a, um, quite a socialist leaning social democratic party. Uh, they are reformers rather than revolutionaries, so they just want to bring about change rather than actually, um, having a revolution.
But the idea is still [00:28:00] around because there's only one wing party and everybody is in it. So that's about, um, you've still got the old aristocracy panicking because they think, what about our status as we're getting sort of sidelined here. Mm-hmm. Uh, we are losing status and wealth.
You've got the middle class is saying, we, the empire, we don't really care what other countries think about that. We want to carry on with that. So there's a huge clash there and em sees the chance when war is sort of up in the air and it's, it's sort of something, a tension is spilling over in Europe. He thinks this is a good moment to unify Germans once again as it happened in 1815 and during the UN Uniform wars to unify all these people together under the banner of being Germans first and foremost, rather than, you know, Avarian or Catholic or an Democrat or or working in class person.
So he seizes that chance and thinks, let's nap night or under one banner, and they use this term called Fortress Peace Frieda. Which basically is like a medieval race. The idea that if your castle gets [00:29:00] attacked or your fortress gets attacked, everybody in it needs a wobbling and just everybody gets out and, and defend parcel because everybody has an interest in not being invaded.
So that's effectively the spirit under which, um, kind of Germans unite in, in 1914. And it seems to work initially. Um, they will kind of agree trade unions, for example, immediate. Agreed to just say, okay, we'll just stop stringing and, and we'll be with you. Um, and it works with interesting. It's fascinating.
Now what other kind of, so we have like the industrialization and the more rural types, and then we have this huge wealth gap with the aristocrats and everybody else, basically. Were there other kinds of culture clashes going on at the time that are maybe less well known? Um, there's a, a burgeoning women's movement.
Um, as well as there are plenty of women who, uh, basically say they vote. So that's more of a, more of a middle class thing I would say.
And then you have a working class women's movement at the same people pushing [00:30:00] for better working conditions, same wages. Yeah. Um, and so on and so forth.
There's also, um, the. Sort of more the urban and and rural divide as well. So there are plenty of people who think that they're kind of cut off from. From the cultural developments that are going on, you have, you know, new cinema and new and new kind of culture and, and quite a modern, uh, things like, you know, modern art that's beginning to develop those kinds of things.
And people in the countryside are cut off from that. And I look down upon often, um, because if you haven't got a train line, say you're being established, oh, you're cut off from all of that and, and you know, right. Yeah. So. This is also something that I think is neglected for too long, and that the right is often able, the political right is often able to, uh, kind of use in the sense that, you know, they, they can speak to these farmers and, and people in rural areas and say, you know, we're looking after your, your interests.
Um, so that's also a big divide, really every, every parameter that you can think of. There's quite a stark [00:31:00] polarization going on before 1914. Yeah. Yes, this, uh, this is so fascinating. If you are interested in before the World War I politics and kind of maybe what led up to it, I would definitely recommend this book again.
It's Blood and Iron, the Rise and Fall of the German Empire, 1871 to 1918, and it is by Katja Hoyer. Um, I wanna thank you again so much for coming on the show and answering all these questions. Thank you.
