Speaker 1 0:00
So, does God cause natural disasters? We'll talk about it today on the Why Do Christians podcast. Hey, welcome to the show. My name's Mark Dickey. I host the afternoon show on the Bridge Radio station. My co-hosts are here, Pastor Bert and Pastor Josh. Hey, guys.
Speaker 2 0:17
Hey, Mark. Hey, Mark.
Speaker 1 0:19
So today we're talking about natural disasters and and where God is in the midst of those. I mean, whether it's an earthquake, whether it's flooding, or a hurricane or typhoon, by the time we make this episode, there might have been another natural disaster somewhere else, a different kind. And you got to ask the question: if if Jesus is the Lord of the wind and waves. Why are people dying because of the wind and waves? And yeah, so we're going to talk about that today.
Speaker 3 0:50
Yeah, you know, I remember years ago, and I was still in seminary at the time, and this is back when Hurricane Katrina had hit, and I remember my my knee jerk response was, you know, I would have friends and colleagues being like, you know, where is God in all of this? Did God cause it? And I remember I would just biblically, I'd be like, but no, well, not biblically, like culturally, I would assume that God couldn't possibly cause a natural disaster, right? So with this, be like, you know, where's God and all this? Did God cause this? Is He judging sin? And I'd be like, no, that's not who God is. God doesn't send natural disasters. He doesn't do that stuff. And I had a friend like in school, rightfully pointed out. He goes, Yeah, except for when He does. Yeah, like there's all kinds of places in in the Old and New Testament, where God's involvement with the weather, or you know, or there are stories where like, no, He absolutely does at points use the the the natural processes of the earth. I guess be the right way to say that. And so, it's not as simple as saying no, He doesn't cause natural disasters, or yes, he does, because there are times where biblically yes, and there are other times where biblically no. Like it's it's not that simple of an answer.
Speaker 1 2:10
Yeah,
Speaker 2 2:11
yeah. I think we could name some of them too. Where are times where he absolutely does, and it's four, which is the beauty of the scripture where he names the reason why he does. Yeah, some of that time, some of those times, you think of the flood is for judgment. Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, earthquakes during during Elijah's time. I mean, just just a whole list of times where God purposefully brings destruction through the weather, through storms through all kinds of events, and he does it because he's he's repaying for sin. But then we have times I don't I don't know if I could ever I would say there's not a time where he's where any of that is out of his control, where where an event takes place like that has recently take place that I could say God didn't do that.
Speaker 3 3:05
Whoa! Hold on, hold, hold, hold on, because because you just all right. Let's let's understand right now. We might be treading into territory where Christians disagree.
Speaker 2 3:15
Okay.
Speaker 3 3:16
So just unpack that thought for me. When you say God didn't do that, do you mean that God was actively doing evil, or do you mean that, like, you know, God's in control of everything in some scope, so things aren't within or things don't surprise? And like, like, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 3:32
Yeah, and I think that's the best place to go because we have to separate where God permits or allows events to happen, and they're real events, real cause and effect, right? Earthquakes are a real thing due to global shifts, shifting, and all and all that. So, so it's not that in the sense that God directly is the one causing this event, but He's made a world in which events like this happen, and He allows them to happen. I I do believe in a very real way that God can can can choose to to either prevent, can choose to direct, can even choose to limit or sustain those events, and he can choose what and how long and how far, and even overrule them. Like such an event was supposed to happen. God's like, no, not not this time. But I have to, I guess, be a little bit clear in that that allowing can be misleading. It's a word Christians use a lot. That oh, God is allowing this event almost as if to mean that He like reluctantly stands by. Like, oh man, like this is happening. I'm gonna sit back. Oh, that one. Right? Yeah, that's a good word. As as if prior to time he was not aware, as if it didn't have to get his permission, as if the Lord of Evident Earth. Didn't have a direct hit, and so by allow, I have to say that God does not stand by and and kind of sit back and let events happen. But each event must, in a sense, I'm going to use this phrasing, present itself to the Lord, and He then governs that event.
Speaker 3 5:18
Okay, so you're you're uncorking a lot of things right here in in my thought processes, or I don't even know. But but here's okay. So when I hear you say that the things that could I don't concern me is the right word. I just want to make sure that I'm being charitable to the person watching who might go. Hold on, like Josh, are you saying then that because because you open this whole thing by saying that God will judge sin sometimes through natural disasters and biblically that is absolutely the case it's just there. So then are you saying how are you listening? You know people encounter a tsunami, a typhoon, or an earthquake or whatever, and the reason that they're having that happen to them is that God is judging their sin.
Speaker 2 6:00
Yeah, I would say no. Okay, I would say no. I would say Jesus talks about that very clearly. I think in Luke 13,
Speaker 3 6:08
yes,
Speaker 2 6:09
where some towers fall on some Galileans, and they present to Jesus about their sins, how bad are Jesus like, no, no. Do do you think that they were much more sinful than others? And he's like, no, that this is not the reason why this terrible, catastrophic event happened to these people. Matter of fact, that's not the reason. And so I think the scripture is clear that we are not in a position to say when a catastrophe happens that it's because of someone's sin. The scriptures do not give us that that authority or that ability or or even anywhere near that kind of insight.
Speaker 3 6:43
Okay, so yeah, and I agree with that. Let's run with that text a little bit more because man, this is where it gets so weird for us because we're thinking machines, and that's good, and like you know, reason and all other things are good, but but scripturally, I think you just hit the nail on the head. Like there is this line that like, hey, there's some things that just for they're not for you to know, and they're outside of your ability to understand things. So you know, you you got the Tower of Siloam in Luke 13 that you just referenced there. You've got God with Satan in the beginning of Job where the whole thing ends, and when Job goes, you know, give me the why. God's like, no, you don't understand things, and then, but even then, like okay, we we could parse a little bit more when it comes to the the natural disaster scene. There are times where God is the direct cause. There are times where Satan is the direct cause, right? So Job, you can see that some of the language around rebuking the wind and the waves. It's been argued that that's spiritual in nature, same way it's been argued with Paul in First Thessalonians two, I think it is, where it's just like we wanted to come your way, but Satan prevented us. So there's some kind of hindrance happening there. None of that means that they're outside of God's power, but I say that say biblically, like it could be any number of things. It could be God Himself. It could be it could be demonic in origin, like you know, spiritual spiritual beings being a thing. It could be human sin that's behind tragedy. But the thing that I like about Jesus's teaching in Luke 13, when he gives like the all right, what do you think these people are more sinful than everybody else? Is he gives the proper hey, here's how we do respond to these things, and this is where I think maybe we have to have a little bit of tension. Is basically what he goes is he goes, no, that's not what happened, but I'll tell you what you need to repent of your sin so you don't die. So right, I mean, like that's that's the line. Like I tell you no, but unless you repent, you likewise will perish. Okay, so here here's here's the idea. It's very easy for us to get into this place of trying to speculate what's going on behind the scenes, and Jesus goes, "That's not for you, no. But here's what it is for you to know: How are you in your relationship with God? How are you in the way that you treat sin and you treat right and wrong? It's easy to deflect so that you don't have to deal with you, but let's talk about you, like where are you when it comes to the way that you are living your life, and that's a, I don't know, you. So I think because we are Western thinkers, that's the unsatisfactory answer. Like we we want everything that's systematized in terms of like, all right, tell me why this happens, why this happens, why this happens, and and let me quantify it. But the Bible doesn't really see the need to give us that. It's almost as though it's saying, like, look, there are things that are beyond your framework, and and you lack the ability to understand it.
Speaker 1 9:31
Whenever I think about you know God allowing something like a natural disaster, I can't help but think and imagine of a tidal wave, where there there is no pinpointing of who gets hurt from a tidal wave. It's just oh, you're in that town, you're on that beach that day, you're you're getting affected, you're getting hit by this tidal wave, whether you believe in Jesus or not. You don't see the. You don't see the waves splitting. Oh, these are the followers of Jesus. We're not going to punish them.
Speaker 2 10:06
Yeah.
Speaker 1 10:06
Um. I can't help but think of that. Like, yeah. No,
Speaker 3 10:09
but but dude. Like, but even think about. Okay. So Jesus in in his prophecies in Matthew. Gosh, I want to say around chapter 20 when he's talking about the fall of Jerusalem that that will later happen in 70 A.D. You'll notice in his prophecies, at no point is he like, but okay, yeah, like you know, yeah, this calamity is going to fall on on the city, and it'll be people will, you know, what were those who have children those days? At no point is like, but you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to make it so my people don't suffer at all. In fact, no, he goes and he goes, look, if you're living in city, get out of town, like that. That's the instruction. Like, get away from where this is going to happen. Like, there doesn't seem to be this divine. You know what? The the rain is going to fall, but it's only going to fall on the wicked. It it doesn't seem to flow out that way.
Speaker 2 10:56
Yeah, yeah. Like what you brought up in Luke 13, and the word Jesus uses there is like perishing, right? Because it's like there's no guarantee that you won't get caught up in the disasters that take place in the world, but you don't have to perish, and that and that's not just like you don't have to die, but you don't have to lose eternally from this. Yes, like you can still have everlasting life, even though you're you're part of this destruction. One of one of one of one of the places I think about this this might help to kind of go somewhere different is um is in Jonah. I mean here here is Jonah running away from God's word, gets on a boat, and these guys experience a natural disaster due to this guy because of
Speaker 1 11:45
him because
Speaker 2 11:45
of him and any other day would have been great. Can't wait to go
Speaker 3 11:52
sailing today, guys. Oh no, this guy.
Speaker 2 11:55
Yeah, and I mean, and and you see this event played out and how much none of it is their fault. None of it is their doing. It is in that story God's doing, but I very clearly. But I think what you can get from it is that through it all, God brings out good in these in this disastrous moment. So even I think in the Bible where you see these disasters taking place, brought on specifically by God, where it says that He brings out so much good from it. He and it just reminds me of Joseph, like what the devil means for evil. God will turn around and bring out good, and so you see in the story of Jonah, these men come out praising God.
Speaker 3 12:37
Yeah, who would have
Speaker 2 12:38
otherwise had no relationship with. Okay,
Speaker 3 12:40
let's contrast that too. Okay, so we talk about like the nature of God versus something like Zeus, right? So, you know, you've got God's wrath where he he might pour out you know judgment on the earth, or like, all right, you know, there's there's the story of Jonah with the the storm and all this stuff. Contrast that with Zeus, where Zeus gets mad, so Zeus responds anger for anger, right? Like he he punishes. That's different than the God of the Bible. He's not flexing for the sake of flexing. It's always to bring about good. It's always to bring about righteousness or longer term life for a group, and that's important to realize that, like, he's not a small god in that sense. It's not a thing of like, oh man, people are just bugging me today. You know what? Like, they're just they they they know how to get my pet peeves. Like, no, like when he does these epic things, it is for someone's restoration or someone's correction. Now the the. the the other thing with that, though, is to realize that, like again, with that language of perishing, let's recognize, like, it would be easy for us to be like, okay, well, you know, so you're saying that tomorrow, this horrible thing could befall where I live. I'm going to live in fear. Then I would tell you, you're not even guaranteed tomorrow,
Speaker 2 14:02
no matter where you live. Yeah,
Speaker 3 14:03
yeah, yeah. And that, and that's teaching Jesus. He's like, he's gonna look like. Let's let's not worry about then. Let's talk about you right here, right now. Where are you? Have you turned from your sin? Have Have you bent your knee to the Lord? Have you have you believed that Jesus has died for your sin and rise from the dead? Have you like have you surrendered your life to Him? Like that's the more important thing, not not okay, is God behind this, and to what degree, and why would He allow it? Well, the scripture just look, He does all kinds of stuff that we're not going to understand, but He only does good.
Speaker 1 14:32
You know what? And it's I can't help but think of some of the opposites to a natural disaster. You know, like why why do good people get hurt in natural disasters. Why? Why does God allow that to happen? It's like, well, why does God allow this terrible drug lord's beach to have beautiful weather? Why doesn't you know what I mean? Or what's the opposite of of a hurricane but a drought? You know, we don't look at droughts so often as like, oh, how could God let this happen? But I mean, maybe people do as well. But a drought is a much slower form of natural disaster. It's the opposite of boom, I'm affected. It's you know what I mean. Like God's still in that, and are you asking the same questions?
Speaker 3 15:24
Yeah, and there, look, there's, I mean, I have thoughts on this, but please, okay, go for it. Okay, well, like, there's there's this psalm, it's Psalm 73. It's by this guy named Asaph, where he basically he looks at how it seems like wicked people are doing really well, and good people aren't, and so he's like, I I don't get. In fact, he says this. He says, uh, he says, but as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my step steps had nearly slipped. For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked, for they have no pangs until death. Their bodies are fat and sleek. They are not in trouble as others are. They are not stricken like the rest of mankind, and so Asa is going like, where in the like, where is the fairness of God in this? Where, and and and basically, what he leads to is the idea of like, the idea is God is essentially buttering them up like a lamb to the slaughter. They're like, yeah, he's allowing all this stuff to bring absolute calamity on. Like, he's given them all these things, but actually, what what that's like with these wicked people is actually it's going to bring about their destruction. So again, at all times, God is only doing good.
Speaker 1 16:31
So I've mentioned a bunch of times on the podcast how much I learned when I got diagnosed with type one diabetes. It's a it's a thing that I didn't do to myself, it just happened to me, and that I don't blame God for getting it. I, I, I just I got this thing. It happened, and thinking about weather as well. There are so many things that are completely out of our control. You didn't do anything to deserve it, but it's here. This is the situation you live in, and I feel like that applies in this conversation as well. There's a lot of people injured in the crossfire of something like a natural disaster.
Speaker 2 17:17
Oh, who had nothing
Speaker 1 17:18
to do with the situation at all.
Speaker 2 17:20
I would like to bring Bert into this and ask him about the word deserve. Yeah, because because it reminds me of Romans two, where Paul says like the we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. And prior chapter he lists a bunch of sins that I don't know a single person who hasn't been guilty of at least three of them right right right go no go ahead I because I knew this would be for you wow you were okay well
Speaker 3 17:52
okay a couple things one Margaret also wants knowing you as I do but for somebody who's watching who maybe doesn't know you what you are not doing right now is comparing measures of suffering from having diabetes to being a victim of a natural disaster.
Speaker 1 18:10
Absolutely, that is not a comparison I was trying to make. Okay, just want to be
Speaker 3 18:14
clear. As far as deserving, we talked about this a little a few weeks ago, and we talked about the idea of like, does God send bad people to hell or good people to hell? Or the problem is that there is an assumption there, and man, I'm really, really sensitive because because what what I don't want somebody who's who's suffering from a tragedy right now? To hear from me is any kind of callousness or any kind of glib. Well, you get what you get. Like, I want to be sensitive to someone's pain. Question, legitimate confusion. And I don't want to just, in the the span of a couple minutes of a podcast, reduce their story to an anecdote that is theologically detached. Might be theologically true, but is detached from care for them. So what I'm going to say, I'm going to try and say with as much sensitivity as I can. We. We believe that there are things that God owes us; that He owes us a good life; that He owes us a life free of suffering; that He owes us certain considerations, and the considerations in themselves aren't bad. It's not bad to have a good life. It's not bad to be free from catastrophe and pain. At the same time, the witness of Scripture is sin deserves. Death. Period. It's not that all sins are the same; they're not. But to a holy God with whom there is no sin, sin is treason against the King of the Universe. It is rejecting His reign, and the punishment for treason in any government that I am aware of is very harsh, because there's something about betraying the reign of a king. In our case, the sin of humanity has brought about the brokenness of creation. It's brought about all sin, like like the first sin has brought about all sin. It's brought about suffering, disease. Like it has fundamentally broken the creation that we live in, the creation that God made that was good. This is not a small thing. The first sin that was enough to break all of it for the 1000s and 1000s of years that we live in was eating of a fruit that God said no to. That's how small it was, and that's the ramifications of it. So, what it would be easy for us to do is look at sin and go like, well, mine isn't that bad, so God should give me. And it's to here I want to go like, you have no idea how big a deal sin is, and so it's not hey you sinned, and so therefore I hope God gets you. I hope He doesn't. I hope He gives mercy, and and and the God of the Bible is abundant in mercy. Like to the people that did that first sin that broke it forever? He gave clothing, like he personally clothed them. He personally took care of them, even though they spat in his face. So, when it comes to this idea of deserve, not to be callous, but what you deserve, what I deserve, is every natural disaster under the sun.
Speaker 1 21:47
Yeah,
Speaker 3 21:48
repeated over and over and over again. Every measure of tragedy, every measure of suffering, every measure of disgust, pain, and thank God that He is merciful enough that He gives us forgiveness of our sin, and the only time he allow, like for the believer, the only time he allows suffering is when it will form us to be with him for eternity even more. And it's not that he likes it; he he he like he. There's an intense mourning for the the brokenness creation that you find, like like the Old Testament, the New Testament is a God who has been wronged. Who even though He has been wronged, like I mean, the Book of Hosea, he he's likened to a husband who's been cheated on, like habitually, and yet He forgives again and again and tries to offer forgiveness, restoration, and redemption to any who would desire it. So this idea of, you know, deserving it or not, what we deserve is not what we want. That doesn't make it easier, but it is the truth. Sometimes good news is hard to hear, and in this case, good news is hard to hear. But it is true, regardless of how much we like
Speaker 2 22:59
it.
Speaker 1 23:01
I can't think of a better way than to to end than that. That's really good, Bert. Hey, if you are someone who's recently gone through a tragedy that's, for lack of a better term, an act of God, we just ask that you would continue to just seek Him to be with Him. We're so sorry that that you're experiencing this, or if it's a loved one, and we hope that you you took this as a loving conversation. In that we we want to help you understand who God is, what His heart is, and if you have ideas for future episodes, let us know. Email them to podcast@wearethebridge.org. Thanks for watching.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
So, does God cause natural disasters? We'll talk about it today on the Why Do Christians podcast. Hey, welcome to the show. My name's Mark Dickey. I host the afternoon show on the Bridge Radio station. My co-hosts are here, Pastor Bert and Pastor Josh. Hey, guys.
Speaker 2 0:17
Hey, Mark. Hey, Mark.
Speaker 1 0:19
So today we're talking about natural disasters and and where God is in the midst of those. I mean, whether it's an earthquake, whether it's flooding, or a hurricane or typhoon, by the time we make this episode, there might have been another natural disaster somewhere else, a different kind. And you got to ask the question: if if Jesus is the Lord of the wind and waves. Why are people dying because of the wind and waves? And yeah, so we're going to talk about that today.
Speaker 3 0:50
Yeah, you know, I remember years ago, and I was still in seminary at the time, and this is back when Hurricane Katrina had hit, and I remember my my knee jerk response was, you know, I would have friends and colleagues being like, you know, where is God in all of this? Did God cause it? And I remember I would just biblically, I'd be like, but no, well, not biblically, like culturally, I would assume that God couldn't possibly cause a natural disaster, right? So with this, be like, you know, where's God and all this? Did God cause this? Is He judging sin? And I'd be like, no, that's not who God is. God doesn't send natural disasters. He doesn't do that stuff. And I had a friend like in school, rightfully pointed out. He goes, Yeah, except for when He does. Yeah, like there's all kinds of places in in the Old and New Testament, where God's involvement with the weather, or you know, or there are stories where like, no, He absolutely does at points use the the the natural processes of the earth. I guess be the right way to say that. And so, it's not as simple as saying no, He doesn't cause natural disasters, or yes, he does, because there are times where biblically yes, and there are other times where biblically no. Like it's it's not that simple of an answer.
Speaker 1 2:10
Yeah,
Speaker 2 2:11
yeah. I think we could name some of them too. Where are times where he absolutely does, and it's four, which is the beauty of the scripture where he names the reason why he does. Yeah, some of that time, some of those times, you think of the flood is for judgment. Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt, earthquakes during during Elijah's time. I mean, just just a whole list of times where God purposefully brings destruction through the weather, through storms through all kinds of events, and he does it because he's he's repaying for sin. But then we have times I don't I don't know if I could ever I would say there's not a time where he's where any of that is out of his control, where where an event takes place like that has recently take place that I could say God didn't do that.
Speaker 3 3:05
Whoa! Hold on, hold, hold, hold on, because because you just all right. Let's let's understand right now. We might be treading into territory where Christians disagree.
Speaker 2 3:15
Okay.
Speaker 3 3:16
So just unpack that thought for me. When you say God didn't do that, do you mean that God was actively doing evil, or do you mean that, like, you know, God's in control of everything in some scope, so things aren't within or things don't surprise? And like, like, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 3:32
Yeah, and I think that's the best place to go because we have to separate where God permits or allows events to happen, and they're real events, real cause and effect, right? Earthquakes are a real thing due to global shifts, shifting, and all and all that. So, so it's not that in the sense that God directly is the one causing this event, but He's made a world in which events like this happen, and He allows them to happen. I I do believe in a very real way that God can can can choose to to either prevent, can choose to direct, can even choose to limit or sustain those events, and he can choose what and how long and how far, and even overrule them. Like such an event was supposed to happen. God's like, no, not not this time. But I have to, I guess, be a little bit clear in that that allowing can be misleading. It's a word Christians use a lot. That oh, God is allowing this event almost as if to mean that He like reluctantly stands by. Like, oh man, like this is happening. I'm gonna sit back. Oh, that one. Right? Yeah, that's a good word. As as if prior to time he was not aware, as if it didn't have to get his permission, as if the Lord of Evident Earth. Didn't have a direct hit, and so by allow, I have to say that God does not stand by and and kind of sit back and let events happen. But each event must, in a sense, I'm going to use this phrasing, present itself to the Lord, and He then governs that event.
Speaker 3 5:18
Okay, so you're you're uncorking a lot of things right here in in my thought processes, or I don't even know. But but here's okay. So when I hear you say that the things that could I don't concern me is the right word. I just want to make sure that I'm being charitable to the person watching who might go. Hold on, like Josh, are you saying then that because because you open this whole thing by saying that God will judge sin sometimes through natural disasters and biblically that is absolutely the case it's just there. So then are you saying how are you listening? You know people encounter a tsunami, a typhoon, or an earthquake or whatever, and the reason that they're having that happen to them is that God is judging their sin.
Speaker 2 6:00
Yeah, I would say no. Okay, I would say no. I would say Jesus talks about that very clearly. I think in Luke 13,
Speaker 3 6:08
yes,
Speaker 2 6:09
where some towers fall on some Galileans, and they present to Jesus about their sins, how bad are Jesus like, no, no. Do do you think that they were much more sinful than others? And he's like, no, that this is not the reason why this terrible, catastrophic event happened to these people. Matter of fact, that's not the reason. And so I think the scripture is clear that we are not in a position to say when a catastrophe happens that it's because of someone's sin. The scriptures do not give us that that authority or that ability or or even anywhere near that kind of insight.
Speaker 3 6:43
Okay, so yeah, and I agree with that. Let's run with that text a little bit more because man, this is where it gets so weird for us because we're thinking machines, and that's good, and like you know, reason and all other things are good, but but scripturally, I think you just hit the nail on the head. Like there is this line that like, hey, there's some things that just for they're not for you to know, and they're outside of your ability to understand things. So you know, you you got the Tower of Siloam in Luke 13 that you just referenced there. You've got God with Satan in the beginning of Job where the whole thing ends, and when Job goes, you know, give me the why. God's like, no, you don't understand things, and then, but even then, like okay, we we could parse a little bit more when it comes to the the natural disaster scene. There are times where God is the direct cause. There are times where Satan is the direct cause, right? So Job, you can see that some of the language around rebuking the wind and the waves. It's been argued that that's spiritual in nature, same way it's been argued with Paul in First Thessalonians two, I think it is, where it's just like we wanted to come your way, but Satan prevented us. So there's some kind of hindrance happening there. None of that means that they're outside of God's power, but I say that say biblically, like it could be any number of things. It could be God Himself. It could be it could be demonic in origin, like you know, spiritual spiritual beings being a thing. It could be human sin that's behind tragedy. But the thing that I like about Jesus's teaching in Luke 13, when he gives like the all right, what do you think these people are more sinful than everybody else? Is he gives the proper hey, here's how we do respond to these things, and this is where I think maybe we have to have a little bit of tension. Is basically what he goes is he goes, no, that's not what happened, but I'll tell you what you need to repent of your sin so you don't die. So right, I mean, like that's that's the line. Like I tell you no, but unless you repent, you likewise will perish. Okay, so here here's here's the idea. It's very easy for us to get into this place of trying to speculate what's going on behind the scenes, and Jesus goes, "That's not for you, no. But here's what it is for you to know: How are you in your relationship with God? How are you in the way that you treat sin and you treat right and wrong? It's easy to deflect so that you don't have to deal with you, but let's talk about you, like where are you when it comes to the way that you are living your life, and that's a, I don't know, you. So I think because we are Western thinkers, that's the unsatisfactory answer. Like we we want everything that's systematized in terms of like, all right, tell me why this happens, why this happens, why this happens, and and let me quantify it. But the Bible doesn't really see the need to give us that. It's almost as though it's saying, like, look, there are things that are beyond your framework, and and you lack the ability to understand it.
Speaker 1 9:31
Whenever I think about you know God allowing something like a natural disaster, I can't help but think and imagine of a tidal wave, where there there is no pinpointing of who gets hurt from a tidal wave. It's just oh, you're in that town, you're on that beach that day, you're you're getting affected, you're getting hit by this tidal wave, whether you believe in Jesus or not. You don't see the. You don't see the waves splitting. Oh, these are the followers of Jesus. We're not going to punish them.
Speaker 2 10:06
Yeah.
Speaker 1 10:06
Um. I can't help but think of that. Like, yeah. No,
Speaker 3 10:09
but but dude. Like, but even think about. Okay. So Jesus in in his prophecies in Matthew. Gosh, I want to say around chapter 20 when he's talking about the fall of Jerusalem that that will later happen in 70 A.D. You'll notice in his prophecies, at no point is he like, but okay, yeah, like you know, yeah, this calamity is going to fall on on the city, and it'll be people will, you know, what were those who have children those days? At no point is like, but you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to make it so my people don't suffer at all. In fact, no, he goes and he goes, look, if you're living in city, get out of town, like that. That's the instruction. Like, get away from where this is going to happen. Like, there doesn't seem to be this divine. You know what? The the rain is going to fall, but it's only going to fall on the wicked. It it doesn't seem to flow out that way.
Speaker 2 10:56
Yeah, yeah. Like what you brought up in Luke 13, and the word Jesus uses there is like perishing, right? Because it's like there's no guarantee that you won't get caught up in the disasters that take place in the world, but you don't have to perish, and that and that's not just like you don't have to die, but you don't have to lose eternally from this. Yes, like you can still have everlasting life, even though you're you're part of this destruction. One of one of one of one of the places I think about this this might help to kind of go somewhere different is um is in Jonah. I mean here here is Jonah running away from God's word, gets on a boat, and these guys experience a natural disaster due to this guy because of
Speaker 1 11:45
him because
Speaker 2 11:45
of him and any other day would have been great. Can't wait to go
Speaker 3 11:52
sailing today, guys. Oh no, this guy.
Speaker 2 11:55
Yeah, and I mean, and and you see this event played out and how much none of it is their fault. None of it is their doing. It is in that story God's doing, but I very clearly. But I think what you can get from it is that through it all, God brings out good in these in this disastrous moment. So even I think in the Bible where you see these disasters taking place, brought on specifically by God, where it says that He brings out so much good from it. He and it just reminds me of Joseph, like what the devil means for evil. God will turn around and bring out good, and so you see in the story of Jonah, these men come out praising God.
Speaker 3 12:37
Yeah, who would have
Speaker 2 12:38
otherwise had no relationship with. Okay,
Speaker 3 12:40
let's contrast that too. Okay, so we talk about like the nature of God versus something like Zeus, right? So, you know, you've got God's wrath where he he might pour out you know judgment on the earth, or like, all right, you know, there's there's the story of Jonah with the the storm and all this stuff. Contrast that with Zeus, where Zeus gets mad, so Zeus responds anger for anger, right? Like he he punishes. That's different than the God of the Bible. He's not flexing for the sake of flexing. It's always to bring about good. It's always to bring about righteousness or longer term life for a group, and that's important to realize that, like, he's not a small god in that sense. It's not a thing of like, oh man, people are just bugging me today. You know what? Like, they're just they they they know how to get my pet peeves. Like, no, like when he does these epic things, it is for someone's restoration or someone's correction. Now the the. the the other thing with that, though, is to realize that, like again, with that language of perishing, let's recognize, like, it would be easy for us to be like, okay, well, you know, so you're saying that tomorrow, this horrible thing could befall where I live. I'm going to live in fear. Then I would tell you, you're not even guaranteed tomorrow,
Speaker 2 14:02
no matter where you live. Yeah,
Speaker 3 14:03
yeah, yeah. And that, and that's teaching Jesus. He's like, he's gonna look like. Let's let's not worry about then. Let's talk about you right here, right now. Where are you? Have you turned from your sin? Have Have you bent your knee to the Lord? Have you have you believed that Jesus has died for your sin and rise from the dead? Have you like have you surrendered your life to Him? Like that's the more important thing, not not okay, is God behind this, and to what degree, and why would He allow it? Well, the scripture just look, He does all kinds of stuff that we're not going to understand, but He only does good.
Speaker 1 14:32
You know what? And it's I can't help but think of some of the opposites to a natural disaster. You know, like why why do good people get hurt in natural disasters. Why? Why does God allow that to happen? It's like, well, why does God allow this terrible drug lord's beach to have beautiful weather? Why doesn't you know what I mean? Or what's the opposite of of a hurricane but a drought? You know, we don't look at droughts so often as like, oh, how could God let this happen? But I mean, maybe people do as well. But a drought is a much slower form of natural disaster. It's the opposite of boom, I'm affected. It's you know what I mean. Like God's still in that, and are you asking the same questions?
Speaker 3 15:24
Yeah, and there, look, there's, I mean, I have thoughts on this, but please, okay, go for it. Okay, well, like, there's there's this psalm, it's Psalm 73. It's by this guy named Asaph, where he basically he looks at how it seems like wicked people are doing really well, and good people aren't, and so he's like, I I don't get. In fact, he says this. He says, uh, he says, but as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my step steps had nearly slipped. For I was envious of the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked, for they have no pangs until death. Their bodies are fat and sleek. They are not in trouble as others are. They are not stricken like the rest of mankind, and so Asa is going like, where in the like, where is the fairness of God in this? Where, and and and basically, what he leads to is the idea of like, the idea is God is essentially buttering them up like a lamb to the slaughter. They're like, yeah, he's allowing all this stuff to bring absolute calamity on. Like, he's given them all these things, but actually, what what that's like with these wicked people is actually it's going to bring about their destruction. So again, at all times, God is only doing good.
Speaker 1 16:31
So I've mentioned a bunch of times on the podcast how much I learned when I got diagnosed with type one diabetes. It's a it's a thing that I didn't do to myself, it just happened to me, and that I don't blame God for getting it. I, I, I just I got this thing. It happened, and thinking about weather as well. There are so many things that are completely out of our control. You didn't do anything to deserve it, but it's here. This is the situation you live in, and I feel like that applies in this conversation as well. There's a lot of people injured in the crossfire of something like a natural disaster.
Speaker 2 17:17
Oh, who had nothing
Speaker 1 17:18
to do with the situation at all.
Speaker 2 17:20
I would like to bring Bert into this and ask him about the word deserve. Yeah, because because it reminds me of Romans two, where Paul says like the we know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. And prior chapter he lists a bunch of sins that I don't know a single person who hasn't been guilty of at least three of them right right right go no go ahead I because I knew this would be for you wow you were okay well
Speaker 3 17:52
okay a couple things one Margaret also wants knowing you as I do but for somebody who's watching who maybe doesn't know you what you are not doing right now is comparing measures of suffering from having diabetes to being a victim of a natural disaster.
Speaker 1 18:10
Absolutely, that is not a comparison I was trying to make. Okay, just want to be
Speaker 3 18:14
clear. As far as deserving, we talked about this a little a few weeks ago, and we talked about the idea of like, does God send bad people to hell or good people to hell? Or the problem is that there is an assumption there, and man, I'm really, really sensitive because because what what I don't want somebody who's who's suffering from a tragedy right now? To hear from me is any kind of callousness or any kind of glib. Well, you get what you get. Like, I want to be sensitive to someone's pain. Question, legitimate confusion. And I don't want to just, in the the span of a couple minutes of a podcast, reduce their story to an anecdote that is theologically detached. Might be theologically true, but is detached from care for them. So what I'm going to say, I'm going to try and say with as much sensitivity as I can. We. We believe that there are things that God owes us; that He owes us a good life; that He owes us a life free of suffering; that He owes us certain considerations, and the considerations in themselves aren't bad. It's not bad to have a good life. It's not bad to be free from catastrophe and pain. At the same time, the witness of Scripture is sin deserves. Death. Period. It's not that all sins are the same; they're not. But to a holy God with whom there is no sin, sin is treason against the King of the Universe. It is rejecting His reign, and the punishment for treason in any government that I am aware of is very harsh, because there's something about betraying the reign of a king. In our case, the sin of humanity has brought about the brokenness of creation. It's brought about all sin, like like the first sin has brought about all sin. It's brought about suffering, disease. Like it has fundamentally broken the creation that we live in, the creation that God made that was good. This is not a small thing. The first sin that was enough to break all of it for the 1000s and 1000s of years that we live in was eating of a fruit that God said no to. That's how small it was, and that's the ramifications of it. So, what it would be easy for us to do is look at sin and go like, well, mine isn't that bad, so God should give me. And it's to here I want to go like, you have no idea how big a deal sin is, and so it's not hey you sinned, and so therefore I hope God gets you. I hope He doesn't. I hope He gives mercy, and and and the God of the Bible is abundant in mercy. Like to the people that did that first sin that broke it forever? He gave clothing, like he personally clothed them. He personally took care of them, even though they spat in his face. So, when it comes to this idea of deserve, not to be callous, but what you deserve, what I deserve, is every natural disaster under the sun.
Speaker 1 21:47
Yeah,
Speaker 3 21:48
repeated over and over and over again. Every measure of tragedy, every measure of suffering, every measure of disgust, pain, and thank God that He is merciful enough that He gives us forgiveness of our sin, and the only time he allow, like for the believer, the only time he allows suffering is when it will form us to be with him for eternity even more. And it's not that he likes it; he he he like he. There's an intense mourning for the the brokenness creation that you find, like like the Old Testament, the New Testament is a God who has been wronged. Who even though He has been wronged, like I mean, the Book of Hosea, he he's likened to a husband who's been cheated on, like habitually, and yet He forgives again and again and tries to offer forgiveness, restoration, and redemption to any who would desire it. So this idea of, you know, deserving it or not, what we deserve is not what we want. That doesn't make it easier, but it is the truth. Sometimes good news is hard to hear, and in this case, good news is hard to hear. But it is true, regardless of how much we like
Speaker 2 22:59
it.
Speaker 1 23:01
I can't think of a better way than to to end than that. That's really good, Bert. Hey, if you are someone who's recently gone through a tragedy that's, for lack of a better term, an act of God, we just ask that you would continue to just seek Him to be with Him. We're so sorry that that you're experiencing this, or if it's a loved one, and we hope that you you took this as a loving conversation. In that we we want to help you understand who God is, what His heart is, and if you have ideas for future episodes, let us know. Email them to podcast@wearethebridge.org. Thanks for watching.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
