Speaker 1: Delighted to welcome Kalate to this episode of Why Authors Write. Daphne is the bestselling author of multiple novels and short story collections, including and Other Stories, Russian Winter, Sight Reading, Hours, and recently, The Daphne, thank you so much for joining me to talk about you wrote these books.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1: I'd like us to start your experience and motivation for writing in these different genres over a couple of decades now. You seem to move from short stories to short story collections to complex novels, novels, dual timelines, locations. ⁓ I'd love to what is different in experience of writing in those different genres and what sparks your interest in each of them.
Speaker 2: I guess the first thing I'd say is that I think like a lot of people, I began by writing short stories because that's often the form that we learn through in classes, right? It's easier. I know when I teach, I often use short stories because you can talk about them in one session. They're more compact and they seem maybe not as daunting, right? When you think, can I finish a story? And it is daunting, even I remember that feeling of trying to write stories when I was in my 20s. Could I finish a story? You know, a short story. And I'm lucky because I think now that I teach, I see that there are some students who are naturally novelists. And whatever they're going to write about is going to be huge and expansive and kind of grandly conceptual. And they'll never be able to treat those ideas in the story form. And so starting out in the story form is maybe not to their benefit. It was to my benefit because I really love the story form and I still write short stories when I see that something is sort of maybe digestible in that form, right? That it's something that's small enough, intimate enough, that it can be really powerful and can be expressed in 20 pages. And I usually know now, you know, I'll have an idea and I can often see, ⁓ this is a story. This can fit within a certain span of pages. It doesn't necessarily correspond to time. You know, a story can take place over, you know, 100 years or five minutes, but so can a novel. It's something about the capaciousness of the idea. And ⁓ in my case, learned when I was writing my first story collection, I had a short story that, you know, the concept behind it was really too complicated to be treated in a short story form. And how did I learn that? Well, I wrote it out as a story. It was called Russian Winter. which of course is the title of my first novel. And it was sort of a short version of that novel without a lot of the kind of twists and turns and complications. ⁓ it was still, it was long for a short story. That's probably was my first sign that it was too packed. ⁓ I couldn't sell it to a magazine, right? I kept getting rejected. So there was something that wasn't working. And then when I sold my story collection, remember it was either my agent or my editor said, there's a story in here that really should be a novel. And to her credit, she said, do you know which one it is? You know, she let me and I said, I know which one it is. I know I need to do that work. Right. And sometimes there, just, know, there's more to be said. There are sub plots. There's a broad expanse of characters. ⁓ and that means to me that it's, it's a novel. Right. If it's thickly populated with people, ⁓ with plots and threads that need to be tied up or left hanging, whatever. it's probably a novel.
Speaker 1: So interesting that you wrote it as a short story. It raises a question I wonder about in terms of creating real characters of depth in the limitations of a short. Can you talk a little bit about that in your experience? What works for short story character development and what are some of the challenges of building real voice into a short story character?
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, in terms of developing character, think it's true you have a lot more time and space to do it in a novel, but there are stories where we can still just really feel like we know a character or simply sympathize with them or empathize with them. And it has to me, it's something in the short story form, it's about finding the key to the character versus having that kind of leisurely way into a character that you have in a novel where in a novel I can, ⁓ I can show them first thinking on their own. can show them in a long conversation with somebody. can see, show how somebody else sees that character. I can show that character from someone else's point of view, right? I can do all these things. Maybe I could do that in a short story too, but it would probably be really complicated ⁓ or maybe busy. In a story in general, I think it's about finding these really, these little nuggets, right? The opening line, that's a line of dialogue where you hear somebody speak and you think, I know who this person is. Or ⁓ just the little micro exchange of dialogue. Even sometimes, in my favorite writers, I'll see like little tiny scenes and in three lines, I think I know the dynamic between these people. I know what this relationship is. ⁓ You know, I think if I really understand who my character is, I can find these little things, whether it's how they feel about something, how they, what they, maybe a gesture, going deep inside them for a paragraph and explaining their thoughts about something. And we can feel incredibly close to a character. ⁓ So I feel like stories are not limited. at all in terms of their depth. They're limited maybe just in their length, but they are still so powerful. know, I growl and pose that it was really the most, that in fiction and prose, it was the most powerful form because you could read it in a sitting. So nothing's interrupting that spell. You're just in that moment of the story until it ends. Whereas in a novel, you have to get up. right, and go eat and things like that. So it's actually, it's diluted, the power is diluted. And I think that's true in a way about story.
Speaker 1: So that's very good segue for me because I agree with you. There are many unforgettable characters in the archivist collection and you've succeeded in creating those characters sometimes in very condensed ways. What did you enjoy most in terms of while you were writing it and now when it's out there in the world, what are you hearing about it or thinking about it? and what were your favorites?
Speaker 2: You know, I love the humor in that book, even though often the stories are sad stories, some sad things are happening or have happened ⁓ to the characters. But I like to feel that there's a sense of kind of the absurdity in life and kind of the humor that just follows us even when things are really dark. And ⁓ I think that some of my favorite characters ⁓ are examples of that. you know, I think in the opening story, that main character, there's an old woman who's 99 years old, Hungarian, ⁓ and she's completely based on my grandmother, who lived to 100 in real life. ⁓ And they are very similar to the point where you my uncle said, ⁓ my gosh, that's my mom. But you know, it's funny, because people say like, ⁓ I don't like this character. She says nasty things and you know, she is like a kind of peppery character. ⁓
Speaker 1: I loved that story and I loved that character. It reminded me of my older relatives for sure.
Speaker 2: I love when I'm able to capture somebody on the page, especially if she's not here anymore, but I feel like she's there in that story. And that's an example of a story that began with just me sort of hearing. hearing some of the things that she would say to me, you know, or to the people who would come to help her in her in her home. And so I love that. And I think I also like there's a story that I added at the last minute, ⁓ which is called a guide to lesser divinities, and also has a kind of not necessarily likable narrator who's the protagonist. ⁓ But it's the only story in that collection that's in the first person. And I added it because that collection had won the Grace Paley Prize. And Paley has so many wonderful stories that are in the first person in that sort of funny brash voice. And I thought, I have this story, I started it. And I thought, want to finish this story and put this in this book because it's funny. The character sort of knows herself and sort of doesn't.
Speaker 1: And now moving on to that novel length and how you have returned to that so often. And yet in a previous discussion that we had, you mentioned that almost inevitably in the midst of every novel that you've written, you come to a point where you feel overwhelmed and full of doubts. And can you even finish this book? Are you on the? wrong track altogether? Is it time to just give it up? And yet you finish it. So I know that's an experience that I've had in writing my books ⁓ that most authors admit to in moments of ⁓ honesty and soul searching. ⁓ So I'm curious if you would just talk a little bit about how that is for you. And then importantly, Have you got any strategies for overcoming it because you write and finish beautiful, wonderful, complex novels and then you write more of them. So you must have worked that out somehow.
Speaker 2: I think what it feels like. And unfortunately, the feeling can last for a long time is really just not knowing like, ⁓ no, I thought I knew what I was doing. And now maybe, you know, and there's different forms of sort of, don't know what I'm doing anymore. Sometimes it's the book went in a different direction than I thought it would. And so I'm kind of wondering if I'm in the going in the right direction. Sometimes it's I just feel like I got to a point and it doesn't feel right or it doesn't feel good and I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know how to get out of this knot. Often I feel like I've gotten myself into a corner and I can't figure out plot wise, how do I get out of this corner? ⁓ And sometimes it's really just that, you know, a lot of these books I write are really complex. They have like multiple places, multiple timelines. and a lot of characters. And so I sometimes I think I feel like, my brain can't handle this. There's too much. And I and I'll try different things. So in terms of strategies, you know, I remember like with Russian winter, what helped me was making an outline, but it was a funny kind of outline because it wasn't an outline that I was following. It was an outline that was explaining to me what I'd written. Right? It was like, here's what you've already done and here's where everything is and here's the order that it's in. And I could look at the outline and tell myself, ⁓ that's where this happens. ⁓ I already said that because I just couldn't even hold in my head. Did I, did I, the scene, where is it? Did I imagine it? You know? ⁓ and then, and now, I mean, in terms of like logistical things, I often use Scrivener in that way now. which is a writing platform ⁓ or word processor, I don't know what you call it, but I just, post, I don't like writing in Scrivener, but I like to paste in there what I've written similarly so that I can just see the order in a really neat way and I can move things around kind of like jigsaw puzzle pieces. Because to me, that's what that confusion feels like. It feels like a huge pile of puzzle pieces. and that I can't see how they fit together. And, and you know, I two main strategies that are really more psychological now when I find myself feeling that. And the first one is simply that I tell myself you've done this before. You know, you, you've written and published three novels before. This has happened every time. And each time you found your way out and what's miraculous is when I do find out how to do it or figure it out. It happens really quickly. I can write for 10 years and feel like, ⁓ I remember with my first book thinking, ⁓ I'm a year away from finishing this. And then suddenly I saw the whole thing in my head. ⁓ I see it. And I finished it in three weeks. But it took me 10 years to get to that, or maybe not 10 years, I don't know, seven years or something to get to that point. where I could suddenly see the whole thing. And the day before I couldn't, I don't know why suddenly I could, but. So I tell myself, you it's just that you just have to push yourself and keep going and you'll have that clarity of vision. And then the second thing in terms of strategies, ⁓ again, it's like a pep talk is, I just tell myself, there are people who want to read this book. You know, I get emails from readers and who love a book and what are you working on? When's your next book coming out? And I think, ⁓ I have to finish this for them. So I just tell myself you're going to do that and it really helps me.
Speaker 1: That is a lovely strategy and that makes me as a reader who does love your books and many other authors books motivated to write and say I loved your book.
Speaker 2: It makes a difference. do. write to authors when I love their books because I think it really makes a difference.
Speaker 1: And in that process, and it's interesting to me that Russian Winter was your first novel. So you couldn't say to yourself at that point, I've done this before, right? Does it become easier now with the second novel and then the third novel? Or do you still find yourself in the middle of that dark night, thinking I'll never get done?
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, I have not found it easier. I've still found it really difficult ⁓ that there's always a point where I think, ⁓ wait, am I doing this the right way? Maybe I'm not. You know, with the book that I'm just finishing now, I, the last minute, I mean, it was basically done and I just felt like there's something not right. I'm going to give it to two people who haven't read any drafts. If they either of them says something about this one thing that I think might be wrong, I'm going to take this thing out. And so sure enough, I did have a question about and I was thought I'm taking this up. It was half the book. I mean, I ripped half that book out.
Speaker 1: on it. One little incident. was half the book.
Speaker 2: It was half the book because I just thought it's the issue. It's a bigger problem. Like I knew deep down it's a bigger structural problem. And I, there's no other way to solve it. And I've been trying, trying, trying to kind of, you know, paste a little here and bandaid a little here and you know, you can't do that. Right. people are gonna understand. They can feel when like something's not structurally sound. Yeah. So I just had to do that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that and thank you for bringing up that you do have a work in progress. What brought you back to the novel form? Knowing that the novel is going to bring you into this dark night moment, you still started a new one. So what brings you to the point of now it's time for a novel?
Speaker 2: You know, I had an idea that I'd have for a while and I hadn't been working on it because I knew I need more time and space. This is a bigger idea. it's going to take time. And also, I think I felt like I want to linger in that space. You know, I had an idea about physically, geographically a place that I wanted to be, and that the reader would maybe want to be. So that was part of it too. You know, I didn't want that feeling of like, let's dip into this for just, know, 20 pages. And I so the whole time when I was finishing the archivist, I started to feel that itch of like, I can't wait because I really want to start this other book. And I think I kept typing some notes in and and then eventually I finally could begin that book. And and like a lot of my novels, it it it intertwines a couple of different storylines and time periods. And that was another reason why I knew it was going to be a novel because it needed more space. for that reason. And in this case, like some of the stories in the archivists, it's also based on ⁓ family stories from both my mother and my father. my mother, ⁓ she grew up in Toronto in late 1940s, 1950s, whereas my father grew up in Budapest. ⁓ So, you know, survived. World War II and then ⁓ Soviet occupation and then fleeing in the dark of night as refugees. So very different experience ⁓ in terms of their childhoods. And I just started thinking about Basically, memories, what happens to memory when you maybe don't, when maybe you have certain holes in your memory, either because something's too painful to remember or because you haven't been told about like your relatives, right, who were killed or who you never met. ⁓ What happens to your story that you tell yourself about your life? So that was something else that I was thinking about when in writing this book. So that was the inspiration for this novel and why I knew it would be a novel.
Speaker 1: And the characters seem to have been alive for you in some ways, even when you were starting, that you knew that it was this kind of a life and this kind of an experience that was going to drive the plot.
Speaker 2: I'm just finishing, so I'll hope it would be like 2027 if I can get it out soon. So we'll see.
Speaker 1: Well, your readers, including me, will be very interested to hear when that new book is going to be available. So thanks for giving us that little preview and better understanding of why you move from the short story to the novel. You're hearing that call to do something longer and more complicated, even in the midst of writing the short story type of collection. look to wrap up here. I'd love it if you would share your reflections and maybe some advice ⁓ based on your own experience of having written in both genres, short story and novel over a fairly long period of time now. What would you say to aspiring writers, debut novelists that you've learned? that you think would be helpful for them.
Speaker 2: Sure. I guess for aspiring writers, I think my main piece of advice would be, and this is based also on being a teacher and also the consultations that I do for people when they send me their manuscripts, ⁓ is that there are no shortcuts. Because this is something I see a lot ⁓ that I think is detrimental. to writers who really badly want to write and are trying hard. ⁓ But the fact is it is hard. It's really hard to finish a book and or a story even. You know, if you're asking someone else to read that story, it's gotta be really good. They have to want to read it. So it's not enough for you to say like, well, I've put in enough time and I'm done. Okay, that's fine. That doesn't mean though that it's going to be publishable or, or or you can decide like I'm going to publish, I'm going to put it, you know, on my sub stack or something and people can read it if they want to. But I think that what I see a lot is this kind of impatience now with the idea of like, oh, you mean I have to revise things? I writing is revision. There's no such thing as just putting something down and then it being done. And often revision is, it means like tearing out half your book, right? Or like when I look back at files, I remember at one point with Russian winter looking back for something and finding an old file and I was like, who are these people? There were all these characters names. I didn't recognize anybody because the book had changed so much. That's what happens when you revise. And it's a wonderful thing that a book can really change and morph into something that's really different. ⁓ So that it's not a bad thing, you know, to go back to the drawing board and not to be scared to like cut something or try something different. It's really wonderful and fun and to really enjoy revising and to not avoid it. That's what I would say, you know, and in terms of debut novelist, you know, if you have your book already coming out, the advice that I always have is nobody will ever, you know, advocate for your book probably as much as you will. So love your book, you know, like it's your baby, and do something for your book every day because, you know, even the most well-meaning publishing house, they just don't have the wherewithal or the money, the resources, the time to usually to promote most of their books the way that all their books deserve because there's not enough manpower probably. And you're probably going to have to do that more. That's what I've seen change so much since my first book came out is now writers kind of have to do everything for their books and nobody else really will do it. So do whatever you can in terms of whatever suits you. If you like to readings, give readings. If you don't like to give readings and you just don't want anybody to see you, they just want them to see your book, well then write articles or sub stacks or find some other way to get your name out with the book, you know, cause you want people to find your book and enjoy your book and that you want them to love it as much as you love it.
Speaker 1: And that raises one last question. How do you feel when you finish a long project, a novel? Are you happy for the closure? Are you celebratory? Are you regretful or ready to get out there and love it in public?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm always on the one hand, relieved that it's done because it takes so long and there's always another book you really want to write by then and usually that you've started. I always have another project that I've already kind of started and I really want to be working on that one. So I usually have that feeling of like, ⁓ good, I can go finally do this other thing. On the one hand, on the other hand, it is a really funny feeling. to not have this project you've been working on every day there suddenly. It's out of your hands and you maybe don't have any control over it anymore. I remember so well the feeling with my first or second book of going to the post office and I mailed back the final, final edits on the final proof of that book. and I was about to leave the post office and I was like, ⁓ no, I forgot. Did I leave my wallet? I forgot something, you know, and I was, ⁓ no, I have my wallet. Is my gloves? What did I forget? And then I realized, ⁓ it was the book, you know, it was that feeling of I left the book, which I was supposed to leave, I was mailing it, but. I felt so weird not to be physically carrying this book back with me. I felt that brief panic of I gave that book to someone else. It's now it's away. It's gone. So, you know, it's, it's a strange feeling, but you have to you have to let go at a certain point for sure.
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful anecdote, a wonderful thought for us to wrap up on, Daphne. So again, thank you so much for sharing all of the experience that you've had in writing your wonderful books and a small preview of your experience in the one that will be coming into the world. newborn in another year or two that we can look forward to. So thank you on behalf of Why Authors Write.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for your thoughtful questions. That was really lovely.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker 1: I'd like us to start your experience and motivation for writing in these different genres over a couple of decades now. You seem to move from short stories to short story collections to complex novels, novels, dual timelines, locations. ⁓ I'd love to what is different in experience of writing in those different genres and what sparks your interest in each of them.
Speaker 2: I guess the first thing I'd say is that I think like a lot of people, I began by writing short stories because that's often the form that we learn through in classes, right? It's easier. I know when I teach, I often use short stories because you can talk about them in one session. They're more compact and they seem maybe not as daunting, right? When you think, can I finish a story? And it is daunting, even I remember that feeling of trying to write stories when I was in my 20s. Could I finish a story? You know, a short story. And I'm lucky because I think now that I teach, I see that there are some students who are naturally novelists. And whatever they're going to write about is going to be huge and expansive and kind of grandly conceptual. And they'll never be able to treat those ideas in the story form. And so starting out in the story form is maybe not to their benefit. It was to my benefit because I really love the story form and I still write short stories when I see that something is sort of maybe digestible in that form, right? That it's something that's small enough, intimate enough, that it can be really powerful and can be expressed in 20 pages. And I usually know now, you know, I'll have an idea and I can often see, ⁓ this is a story. This can fit within a certain span of pages. It doesn't necessarily correspond to time. You know, a story can take place over, you know, 100 years or five minutes, but so can a novel. It's something about the capaciousness of the idea. And ⁓ in my case, learned when I was writing my first story collection, I had a short story that, you know, the concept behind it was really too complicated to be treated in a short story form. And how did I learn that? Well, I wrote it out as a story. It was called Russian Winter. which of course is the title of my first novel. And it was sort of a short version of that novel without a lot of the kind of twists and turns and complications. ⁓ it was still, it was long for a short story. That's probably was my first sign that it was too packed. ⁓ I couldn't sell it to a magazine, right? I kept getting rejected. So there was something that wasn't working. And then when I sold my story collection, remember it was either my agent or my editor said, there's a story in here that really should be a novel. And to her credit, she said, do you know which one it is? You know, she let me and I said, I know which one it is. I know I need to do that work. Right. And sometimes there, just, know, there's more to be said. There are sub plots. There's a broad expanse of characters. ⁓ and that means to me that it's, it's a novel. Right. If it's thickly populated with people, ⁓ with plots and threads that need to be tied up or left hanging, whatever. it's probably a novel.
Speaker 1: So interesting that you wrote it as a short story. It raises a question I wonder about in terms of creating real characters of depth in the limitations of a short. Can you talk a little bit about that in your experience? What works for short story character development and what are some of the challenges of building real voice into a short story character?
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, in terms of developing character, think it's true you have a lot more time and space to do it in a novel, but there are stories where we can still just really feel like we know a character or simply sympathize with them or empathize with them. And it has to me, it's something in the short story form, it's about finding the key to the character versus having that kind of leisurely way into a character that you have in a novel where in a novel I can, ⁓ I can show them first thinking on their own. can show them in a long conversation with somebody. can see, show how somebody else sees that character. I can show that character from someone else's point of view, right? I can do all these things. Maybe I could do that in a short story too, but it would probably be really complicated ⁓ or maybe busy. In a story in general, I think it's about finding these really, these little nuggets, right? The opening line, that's a line of dialogue where you hear somebody speak and you think, I know who this person is. Or ⁓ just the little micro exchange of dialogue. Even sometimes, in my favorite writers, I'll see like little tiny scenes and in three lines, I think I know the dynamic between these people. I know what this relationship is. ⁓ You know, I think if I really understand who my character is, I can find these little things, whether it's how they feel about something, how they, what they, maybe a gesture, going deep inside them for a paragraph and explaining their thoughts about something. And we can feel incredibly close to a character. ⁓ So I feel like stories are not limited. at all in terms of their depth. They're limited maybe just in their length, but they are still so powerful. know, I growl and pose that it was really the most, that in fiction and prose, it was the most powerful form because you could read it in a sitting. So nothing's interrupting that spell. You're just in that moment of the story until it ends. Whereas in a novel, you have to get up. right, and go eat and things like that. So it's actually, it's diluted, the power is diluted. And I think that's true in a way about story.
Speaker 1: So that's very good segue for me because I agree with you. There are many unforgettable characters in the archivist collection and you've succeeded in creating those characters sometimes in very condensed ways. What did you enjoy most in terms of while you were writing it and now when it's out there in the world, what are you hearing about it or thinking about it? and what were your favorites?
Speaker 2: You know, I love the humor in that book, even though often the stories are sad stories, some sad things are happening or have happened ⁓ to the characters. But I like to feel that there's a sense of kind of the absurdity in life and kind of the humor that just follows us even when things are really dark. And ⁓ I think that some of my favorite characters ⁓ are examples of that. you know, I think in the opening story, that main character, there's an old woman who's 99 years old, Hungarian, ⁓ and she's completely based on my grandmother, who lived to 100 in real life. ⁓ And they are very similar to the point where you my uncle said, ⁓ my gosh, that's my mom. But you know, it's funny, because people say like, ⁓ I don't like this character. She says nasty things and you know, she is like a kind of peppery character. ⁓
Speaker 1: I loved that story and I loved that character. It reminded me of my older relatives for sure.
Speaker 2: I love when I'm able to capture somebody on the page, especially if she's not here anymore, but I feel like she's there in that story. And that's an example of a story that began with just me sort of hearing. hearing some of the things that she would say to me, you know, or to the people who would come to help her in her in her home. And so I love that. And I think I also like there's a story that I added at the last minute, ⁓ which is called a guide to lesser divinities, and also has a kind of not necessarily likable narrator who's the protagonist. ⁓ But it's the only story in that collection that's in the first person. And I added it because that collection had won the Grace Paley Prize. And Paley has so many wonderful stories that are in the first person in that sort of funny brash voice. And I thought, I have this story, I started it. And I thought, want to finish this story and put this in this book because it's funny. The character sort of knows herself and sort of doesn't.
Speaker 1: And now moving on to that novel length and how you have returned to that so often. And yet in a previous discussion that we had, you mentioned that almost inevitably in the midst of every novel that you've written, you come to a point where you feel overwhelmed and full of doubts. And can you even finish this book? Are you on the? wrong track altogether? Is it time to just give it up? And yet you finish it. So I know that's an experience that I've had in writing my books ⁓ that most authors admit to in moments of ⁓ honesty and soul searching. ⁓ So I'm curious if you would just talk a little bit about how that is for you. And then importantly, Have you got any strategies for overcoming it because you write and finish beautiful, wonderful, complex novels and then you write more of them. So you must have worked that out somehow.
Speaker 2: I think what it feels like. And unfortunately, the feeling can last for a long time is really just not knowing like, ⁓ no, I thought I knew what I was doing. And now maybe, you know, and there's different forms of sort of, don't know what I'm doing anymore. Sometimes it's the book went in a different direction than I thought it would. And so I'm kind of wondering if I'm in the going in the right direction. Sometimes it's I just feel like I got to a point and it doesn't feel right or it doesn't feel good and I don't know what I'm doing and I don't know how to get out of this knot. Often I feel like I've gotten myself into a corner and I can't figure out plot wise, how do I get out of this corner? ⁓ And sometimes it's really just that, you know, a lot of these books I write are really complex. They have like multiple places, multiple timelines. and a lot of characters. And so I sometimes I think I feel like, my brain can't handle this. There's too much. And I and I'll try different things. So in terms of strategies, you know, I remember like with Russian winter, what helped me was making an outline, but it was a funny kind of outline because it wasn't an outline that I was following. It was an outline that was explaining to me what I'd written. Right? It was like, here's what you've already done and here's where everything is and here's the order that it's in. And I could look at the outline and tell myself, ⁓ that's where this happens. ⁓ I already said that because I just couldn't even hold in my head. Did I, did I, the scene, where is it? Did I imagine it? You know? ⁓ and then, and now, I mean, in terms of like logistical things, I often use Scrivener in that way now. which is a writing platform ⁓ or word processor, I don't know what you call it, but I just, post, I don't like writing in Scrivener, but I like to paste in there what I've written similarly so that I can just see the order in a really neat way and I can move things around kind of like jigsaw puzzle pieces. Because to me, that's what that confusion feels like. It feels like a huge pile of puzzle pieces. and that I can't see how they fit together. And, and you know, I two main strategies that are really more psychological now when I find myself feeling that. And the first one is simply that I tell myself you've done this before. You know, you, you've written and published three novels before. This has happened every time. And each time you found your way out and what's miraculous is when I do find out how to do it or figure it out. It happens really quickly. I can write for 10 years and feel like, ⁓ I remember with my first book thinking, ⁓ I'm a year away from finishing this. And then suddenly I saw the whole thing in my head. ⁓ I see it. And I finished it in three weeks. But it took me 10 years to get to that, or maybe not 10 years, I don't know, seven years or something to get to that point. where I could suddenly see the whole thing. And the day before I couldn't, I don't know why suddenly I could, but. So I tell myself, you it's just that you just have to push yourself and keep going and you'll have that clarity of vision. And then the second thing in terms of strategies, ⁓ again, it's like a pep talk is, I just tell myself, there are people who want to read this book. You know, I get emails from readers and who love a book and what are you working on? When's your next book coming out? And I think, ⁓ I have to finish this for them. So I just tell myself you're going to do that and it really helps me.
Speaker 1: That is a lovely strategy and that makes me as a reader who does love your books and many other authors books motivated to write and say I loved your book.
Speaker 2: It makes a difference. do. write to authors when I love their books because I think it really makes a difference.
Speaker 1: And in that process, and it's interesting to me that Russian Winter was your first novel. So you couldn't say to yourself at that point, I've done this before, right? Does it become easier now with the second novel and then the third novel? Or do you still find yourself in the middle of that dark night, thinking I'll never get done?
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, I have not found it easier. I've still found it really difficult ⁓ that there's always a point where I think, ⁓ wait, am I doing this the right way? Maybe I'm not. You know, with the book that I'm just finishing now, I, the last minute, I mean, it was basically done and I just felt like there's something not right. I'm going to give it to two people who haven't read any drafts. If they either of them says something about this one thing that I think might be wrong, I'm going to take this thing out. And so sure enough, I did have a question about and I was thought I'm taking this up. It was half the book. I mean, I ripped half that book out.
Speaker 1: on it. One little incident. was half the book.
Speaker 2: It was half the book because I just thought it's the issue. It's a bigger problem. Like I knew deep down it's a bigger structural problem. And I, there's no other way to solve it. And I've been trying, trying, trying to kind of, you know, paste a little here and bandaid a little here and you know, you can't do that. Right. people are gonna understand. They can feel when like something's not structurally sound. Yeah. So I just had to do that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that and thank you for bringing up that you do have a work in progress. What brought you back to the novel form? Knowing that the novel is going to bring you into this dark night moment, you still started a new one. So what brings you to the point of now it's time for a novel?
Speaker 2: You know, I had an idea that I'd have for a while and I hadn't been working on it because I knew I need more time and space. This is a bigger idea. it's going to take time. And also, I think I felt like I want to linger in that space. You know, I had an idea about physically, geographically a place that I wanted to be, and that the reader would maybe want to be. So that was part of it too. You know, I didn't want that feeling of like, let's dip into this for just, know, 20 pages. And I so the whole time when I was finishing the archivist, I started to feel that itch of like, I can't wait because I really want to start this other book. And I think I kept typing some notes in and and then eventually I finally could begin that book. And and like a lot of my novels, it it it intertwines a couple of different storylines and time periods. And that was another reason why I knew it was going to be a novel because it needed more space. for that reason. And in this case, like some of the stories in the archivists, it's also based on ⁓ family stories from both my mother and my father. my mother, ⁓ she grew up in Toronto in late 1940s, 1950s, whereas my father grew up in Budapest. ⁓ So, you know, survived. World War II and then ⁓ Soviet occupation and then fleeing in the dark of night as refugees. So very different experience ⁓ in terms of their childhoods. And I just started thinking about Basically, memories, what happens to memory when you maybe don't, when maybe you have certain holes in your memory, either because something's too painful to remember or because you haven't been told about like your relatives, right, who were killed or who you never met. ⁓ What happens to your story that you tell yourself about your life? So that was something else that I was thinking about when in writing this book. So that was the inspiration for this novel and why I knew it would be a novel.
Speaker 1: And the characters seem to have been alive for you in some ways, even when you were starting, that you knew that it was this kind of a life and this kind of an experience that was going to drive the plot.
Speaker 2: I'm just finishing, so I'll hope it would be like 2027 if I can get it out soon. So we'll see.
Speaker 1: Well, your readers, including me, will be very interested to hear when that new book is going to be available. So thanks for giving us that little preview and better understanding of why you move from the short story to the novel. You're hearing that call to do something longer and more complicated, even in the midst of writing the short story type of collection. look to wrap up here. I'd love it if you would share your reflections and maybe some advice ⁓ based on your own experience of having written in both genres, short story and novel over a fairly long period of time now. What would you say to aspiring writers, debut novelists that you've learned? that you think would be helpful for them.
Speaker 2: Sure. I guess for aspiring writers, I think my main piece of advice would be, and this is based also on being a teacher and also the consultations that I do for people when they send me their manuscripts, ⁓ is that there are no shortcuts. Because this is something I see a lot ⁓ that I think is detrimental. to writers who really badly want to write and are trying hard. ⁓ But the fact is it is hard. It's really hard to finish a book and or a story even. You know, if you're asking someone else to read that story, it's gotta be really good. They have to want to read it. So it's not enough for you to say like, well, I've put in enough time and I'm done. Okay, that's fine. That doesn't mean though that it's going to be publishable or, or or you can decide like I'm going to publish, I'm going to put it, you know, on my sub stack or something and people can read it if they want to. But I think that what I see a lot is this kind of impatience now with the idea of like, oh, you mean I have to revise things? I writing is revision. There's no such thing as just putting something down and then it being done. And often revision is, it means like tearing out half your book, right? Or like when I look back at files, I remember at one point with Russian winter looking back for something and finding an old file and I was like, who are these people? There were all these characters names. I didn't recognize anybody because the book had changed so much. That's what happens when you revise. And it's a wonderful thing that a book can really change and morph into something that's really different. ⁓ So that it's not a bad thing, you know, to go back to the drawing board and not to be scared to like cut something or try something different. It's really wonderful and fun and to really enjoy revising and to not avoid it. That's what I would say, you know, and in terms of debut novelist, you know, if you have your book already coming out, the advice that I always have is nobody will ever, you know, advocate for your book probably as much as you will. So love your book, you know, like it's your baby, and do something for your book every day because, you know, even the most well-meaning publishing house, they just don't have the wherewithal or the money, the resources, the time to usually to promote most of their books the way that all their books deserve because there's not enough manpower probably. And you're probably going to have to do that more. That's what I've seen change so much since my first book came out is now writers kind of have to do everything for their books and nobody else really will do it. So do whatever you can in terms of whatever suits you. If you like to readings, give readings. If you don't like to give readings and you just don't want anybody to see you, they just want them to see your book, well then write articles or sub stacks or find some other way to get your name out with the book, you know, cause you want people to find your book and enjoy your book and that you want them to love it as much as you love it.
Speaker 1: And that raises one last question. How do you feel when you finish a long project, a novel? Are you happy for the closure? Are you celebratory? Are you regretful or ready to get out there and love it in public?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm always on the one hand, relieved that it's done because it takes so long and there's always another book you really want to write by then and usually that you've started. I always have another project that I've already kind of started and I really want to be working on that one. So I usually have that feeling of like, ⁓ good, I can go finally do this other thing. On the one hand, on the other hand, it is a really funny feeling. to not have this project you've been working on every day there suddenly. It's out of your hands and you maybe don't have any control over it anymore. I remember so well the feeling with my first or second book of going to the post office and I mailed back the final, final edits on the final proof of that book. and I was about to leave the post office and I was like, ⁓ no, I forgot. Did I leave my wallet? I forgot something, you know, and I was, ⁓ no, I have my wallet. Is my gloves? What did I forget? And then I realized, ⁓ it was the book, you know, it was that feeling of I left the book, which I was supposed to leave, I was mailing it, but. I felt so weird not to be physically carrying this book back with me. I felt that brief panic of I gave that book to someone else. It's now it's away. It's gone. So, you know, it's, it's a strange feeling, but you have to you have to let go at a certain point for sure.
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful anecdote, a wonderful thought for us to wrap up on, Daphne. So again, thank you so much for sharing all of the experience that you've had in writing your wonderful books and a small preview of your experience in the one that will be coming into the world. newborn in another year or two that we can look forward to. So thank you on behalf of Why Authors Write.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for your thoughtful questions. That was really lovely.
