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Hey everybody, welcome to another whiskey web and whatnot with myself Robert William
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Wagner and my co-host Charles William Carpenter the third with our guests today Dan
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Gebhardt from many many things. Ember, core team, emeritus I believe and Jason
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API and orbit and lots of stuff. The most important bit here is so it's
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Gebhardt it's not Gebhardt. Yeah you got it. Oh very good. So I said it right.
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That's the first test. Yeah okay. Nice. Yeah yeah thanks for joining us. If you
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want to give a quick intro into who you are what you do and just a few
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sentences and let's even know your. Sure thanks. Yeah I suppose most people
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listening to this will know me from some my open source work I've been working
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on the web since the late 90s so going way back and I really got started in
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open source about I would say 10 or 12 years ago so I've gotten to the point
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where I had almost too many things going. I was a part of the member core team
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where Ganjase and API and a pretty big project with orbit JS and I actually
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alumniized myself from the core team last year so I could give a little focus to
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to some of the other projects. I also do consulting mostly on web projects
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mostly using the tech that I help work on in open source so I have a small
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consultancy with my brother Larry and he tends to work on the back end I tend
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to work on the front end although we both are sort of false back devs so not
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unlike ship shape code but I also work a lot with tilde company co-founded by
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Leia and Yehuda cats and others and we often do our consulting through them so
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some of our clients will only know us through them. Pass out of the bag now with
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a K. There you go. So in terms of like back end technologies that you work with
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due to Ruby or is Yehuda pulling you into Rust or something else? Yeah we mostly
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use Ruby and you know primarily Rails. Larry's the lead maintainer of JSON API
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resources which is a pretty popular gem that makes it pretty straightforward to
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stand up a JSON API server to Rails so that that's been our main focus so we
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sort of have that JSON API contract at the middle and we tend to build on
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either side of it those are most of the projects we work on. Gotcha. So before we
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get too deep into all this tech though let's open some whiskey. Nice. That's why
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everyone's here really. So we have we heard you like scotch so we got something
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that's hopefully kind of scotchy but a little bit different so this is the
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Nika single malt Miyagi Kyo. I don't know how to pronounce that exactly. Sounds
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accurate to me. You get points for trying though that's good as I could do. It's
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been ages I've only had one I think one Japanese scotch before so this should
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be a good adventure. Nice. I think you're legally unable to call it that. Yeah.
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They can't be called scotch. There are no Japanese scotches. There are Japanese
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whiskies like an American champagne. Exactly. You can't do that. Okay. Well it's got a nice
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like kind of PD smell to it. Scotchy scotch scotch. Doesn't have a cork though.
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There's no pop. No. No pop. Scotchy scotch scotch. That's a big pour.
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Ready. I have had other Nicos. Yeah. It's a pretty popular Japanese brand I believe. Yeah.
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There's one that's like a blend called from the barrel. It's a good one I've had a
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couple of times and I've had their 12 and their 17 before. Oh in the coffee grain one.
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One's pretty good. So this is 100% malted barley. It's 90 proof and it says on the back that it
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uses less PT malt and is distilled in a hot still heated by indirect steam for those that know
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what any of that means. That looks like a lot of whiskey. Yeah. It's probably too much.
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Also it either looks like apple juice or pee. Yeah. Don't let that influence your thoughts though.
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With the smell was more PD but I actually get a little smoke on the finish.
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I was getting a little bit of lemon on the smell like acidic. Yeah. Yeah. It's very smooth.
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It's not aggressive in any way. It's very, I think it's very easy to drink. Yeah.
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Not too peaty, not too smokey but pretty balanced. Yeah. I would agree with that. It's got a little hug.
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Yeah. I would say it's a good middle of the road. A little bit of peat, a little bit of smoke,
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a little bit of sweetness. I think for someone who doesn't love a real PD scotch, this is pretty good.
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Definitely. Yeah. All right, Dan. So you are familiar with our rating system, cleverly following
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the octopus, eight tentacles. So one to eight, one being horrible throat out of the window,
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eight being, I will never drink anything else every chance I get on this one or anything in between.
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How do you feel? I think it's at least six and a half. Pretty good. Is it cruel to cut the tentacle?
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I don't know. We do have. Ouch. It's painful. People have. Does sound painful. Yeah. People do.
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You know, there's rules in so many areas in life like not having any rules around this feels good to me.
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Nice. Yeah. I need a place to rebel. Drobbing, I've been like trying to like categorize now,
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instead of being like out of all whiskeys, what would you think? So I would say between like
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Japanese whiskeys and scotchos that we've had thus far or just in life, I guess. I would put this
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at like a seven. I would definitely have this again. That was in the moon for something like that.
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Like you said, I think it's really well balanced, but it has flavor. It seems to kind of evolve every
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time I take a little sip. I think Robbie got into my head. So I am getting a little lemony kind of,
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yeah, I don't know, but getting a little lemony there. Very fresh. Yes. Yeah, I think having had like
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10 or less scotches and Japanese or scotch style, I guess, whiskeys in general, I would rate this
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in the top 15% of the ones I've had. So based on my tiny bit of experience and to this type of whisky,
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I'd give it I think a seven. Sounds good. I would buy that. It's a great summer whisky. I think
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doesn't overpower you. Yeah. I would go as far to say as like I agree with that and I would even have
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this over like an ice ball or large cube or something. And Robbie knows I'm not one to really
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change my whisky much, but yeah, given this, I could see with a little chill, at least with like
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some whisky stones to give it a little coolness. I think would be great. Yeah, definitely. Do you
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guys add any water to your whisky or do you drink it straight? So I used to be a little more
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diverse in that, like not normally, but if there's some really like high proof barrel proof stuff,
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you know, it's like 120 or something, I would do that a little bit first and kind of see like,
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all of this that opening up for me and like take a little edge off before I would go down the
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cube. But it is interesting when I try new things, when I used to do that, I would like,
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okay, you get a poor the first bit, you try just as is and then you add a little water, a few drops
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of water, change it up. Yeah, I tend to add a few drops. I used to do ice in mine all the time.
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I had a totally not legit glass and I would just do tons and tons of ice and check would always
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get upset at me for not doing it the correct way. So, you know, we have these somewhat legit
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glasses now, the the Glencarn or whatever it is. They are. Yeah, they're in New Orleans. They're
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basically like two layer Glencarns. So it's a Glencarn in the middle and then has the outside layer
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to like stop your hand from warming whisky, which is maybe excessive. Yeah, that's a good idea.
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Yeah, I have some coffee and tea mugs like that, why not whisky mugs that are dual layer like
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that, that makes a lot of sense. It's the same purpose as a stem on a glass, right? Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, the Glencarn shape is also supposed to change how you know is the whisky or something,
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but so I don't know, supposed to give you both things. Yeah, I think it does work when it's like
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really high proof. You get that like not as much alcohol to the nose. Yeah. So,
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New Orleans, if you're listening, we love your glasses. We think they're perfect for everyone.
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I would gladly have two more. We've been working on sponsorship for a while, but I don't think we're
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doing a very good job because this assumes that in our tight little world that a someone with power
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at New Orleans glasses could actually do something. Yeah. And have heard us. Yeah, you might have to
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play up the whisky and the whatnot and play down the web. Yeah, maybe you're spreading yourself
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a little thin for the general audience. Those three things, that's true. And you know,
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although I love it, I love the format. It's the good mix. Yeah, I think for the specific
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subset of people that listen to it, it's a great format, but yeah, there are some people I think
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that are only interested in one of the three. And then they are kind of like, I wish they'd not
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to listen to 15 minutes of talking about whiskey before we get to the rest or, you know, whatever,
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but it is what it is. We have fun with it. This is what we like. Yeah. You're the ones putting in
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in the work. We capture weeks. So we'll enjoy it. True. The hardest part is because of I'm on
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West Coast time and Robbie's on East Coast time. And so we do this at like two o'clock in the
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afternoon. And then I have some whiskey. And then it's like, do you want to do any more work today?
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I don't want to. That's the hardest part. Right, right. This is just just two o'clock for you,
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Chuck. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. I'll power through it somehow. So yeah, I guess we test a little bit
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on some tech earlier, but let's dive a little bit deeper into some of this here. So just the first
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thing that we should talk about is, well, most of what we're going to talk about is orbit, I guess.
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And so what led you to create orbit? Hmm. It was a good seven or eight years ago when I first started
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orbit. And I was basically mapping out the data needs for an application eyes building and
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trying to make sense of all those requirements and trying to apply them to other packages like
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ember data. I was already in the ember world. And so I was trying to how I could say adapt
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ember data to my needs. And I really couldn't back then. And I don't think I could even now with
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the set of requirements I had, which was, you know, basically an offline first app that had an
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optimistic UI that needed, you know, to store data locally in the browser, obviously, and sync it
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up with a remote server, so work offline and and online. But also not just do that, but like
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only some of the data needed to be offline. Like there's some data that makes sense to be offline
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and other data that really only makes sense when it's when you're hitting a server and you're
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getting it all the time from straight from the source. So with all those requirements, I was trying
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to put together how I could, you know, rationalize these problems. And it's required for this app,
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I was building. And I started to deconstruct, you know, the whole data universe, essentially,
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all the aspects of a data library. And I kind of looked at it from first principles. And then,
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you know, orbit was the result of all that work. I just I started to have a pretty clear vision of
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what how I could tackle this set of problems and meet these requirements without trying to
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end another package way beyond what it could was designed to do in the first place.
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And what I came away with with orbit, I think, is something that is sometimes, you know,
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building for the hard case first also helps clarify the simple case. And I think that
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orbit really scales from the very simple to the very complex set of requirements because I had
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that really tricky application that I was trying to build, you know, back in 2014 that that had
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all these needs. While I was building something kind of from scratch, putting an Ember layer for
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reactivity over the top, which is what Ember orbit is, then I started to look at every piece of it
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and try to break it down into components. And it's a pretty composable data framework, I think,
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that lets you think about your sources of data independently of the way that data flows between
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them, but apply the same template to all your sources, treat them all the same query from them,
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the same update them the same with the same language. You track all the data in a uniform format,
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but allow for all these edges where data might be sent in JSON API format to the server,
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or it could support GraphQL, could be a simple rest, work with simple rest servers, it could work
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with sockets, but, you know, it also could work with index DB, and so the only way I could make
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sense of all this was to normalize how to interact with every source of data, and then the other
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piece is all the blue code, how do you get these sources to interact with each other, and that also
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made sense to like if they're talking in the same language, they can all listen to, you can set up
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listeners to the, you know, when they change, and then you can also, when a change happens,
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you can update them, and so that's kind of got focused on the sources, the normalized format,
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and the querying, and updates, and then, but also this blue code that'll have, you know, put them
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all together in a single app. So that's the composability layer that you kind of were touching on.
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So yeah, it's interesting, because you talk about a lot of like solving different parts of those
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puzzle, that puzzle separately, drawing them together in a composable way, depending on your
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architecture and needs, so like you mentioned react, or interacting with index DB, for example,
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like you could you utilize it as like an ORM for index DB? Yeah, absolutely, like one small part of
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that, you could use ORBIT to just query index DB, like DEXY, JS, or something, right, like,
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you know, some wrapper for index DB, you could just use the ORBIT source to query it, and you could,
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you know, query all records of a type from index DB and leave it to that ORBIT source to
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find those records, and then also update those records when you want them to, and so you could
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also use it just as a simple ORM for your rest server, or at the very simplest case, you could use
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it to manage data in memory, just a memory source, which is what a lot of single page apps are built
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with a cache, and so that cache needs to be managed somehow, and needs to be queried and updated,
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so you could just use that piece of the puzzle. Yeah, that's interesting, because if you're not
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concerned with like a database persistency outside of the user's browser, and if you wanted to like
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use it initially for like, say, a POC project or something, and so instead of mocking things,
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I can have real interactions that are stored, and then look at, oh, when my data source is available
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later on, now I'm going to introduce a syncing strategy, you know, things like that, so yeah,
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that's interesting, so having a plan and then you can composably like step through, adding or like
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using ORBIT as your data manager, and then that seems pretty interesting actually, I didn't
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realize that fast enough. Yeah, that's one of my favorite aspects of working with ORBIT is
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using it as simply as possible to just prototype and app really quickly, and I fear that, you know,
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because ORBIT has all these potential, you know, sources you can work with, and use cases that
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it can solve, people overlook the very simplest case, which becomes incredibly simple when you're
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just dealing with memory or a cache and memory, and it makes it very easy to build to prototype
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a POC and just provide a simple data layer in an app, even though, you know, it can do the more
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complicated things, it doesn't have to. Well, we started using InverData with Swatch, and then we had
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a problem where we needed to undo and redo things. Well, I'm kind of getting down the wrong path here,
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but it was really good to be able to release a thing that was just kind of indexed DB based,
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because we just wanted data locally to begin with, and we wanted to get that really good,
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and then like one of the best things about ORBIT, I think, is that I'm going to get the terminology
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wrong here, so you can correct me, but like the thought that each update or transaction or whatever
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is like, like you can replay them, they're always the same back and forth, like they're guaranteed to,
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oh yeah, they're immutable in history like that. Yeah, yeah, that's what worked for us.
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Yeah, you could think of it like Git, you know, where you have commits that you can play and
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replay, and in fact, a lot of the terminology for like the memory sources, which have an
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immutable cache that the root is based on Git, so you can do a like a rebase, a fork, a merge,
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and so you can track changes deterministically and create things like an undo, redo stack.
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You can also allow for like complex editing contexts where you fork this immutable data structure,
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which is really cheap, it doesn't involve any actual mutations to fork it, and then you're working
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in a branch like you would be in Git, and then you can either just throw that away, or you know,
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like say you do a bunch of complex edits, they're never going to touch the main branch anymore,
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until you decide to merge them back in, and so he gives you a lot of control over changes,
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and your data that's in memory, because it's built on those same sort of simple building blocks,
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like Git commits essentially. So would forking and merging be kind of a replacement for something
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like invert change sets, or something like that, where you could like fork make all the changes
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you want, and then if you decided you wanted to roll it back, you could just not merge it,
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or something like that. Yeah, right. You wouldn't have made any changes to the main branch,
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it's like being able to check out a new branch in Git and try and experiment, and then just
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throw that away if it doesn't work out. Meanwhile, you know, the main branch might accept updates
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from the server, might get updates from sockets and such, and be updated, and then you want
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to merge those changes back in, and you know, sometimes there could be a theory conflicts too,
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which you'd have to deal with. So there's all those complexities if you decide to work with it that
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way. Overall, I think just like working with Git, it provides a pretty clear mental model,
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at least, and doesn't try to oversimplify things that are inherently complex, like, you know,
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like data merge conflicts and such. Someone has to figure that out, and it can't always be the library.
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Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of weird stuff that could happen if you went offline, or someone
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else edited the same things you edited, or something like that before you tried to save it. So
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in that case, what happens in orbit, like how does it flag that there is a conflict?
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When you issue a merge, you could number one, you could check first to see if essentially the main
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branch or the main cache has progressed, has had any commits to it. I'll just speak and get
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terminology to simplify things for the listeners who aren't using orbit perhaps. But
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you could check the latest commit on main and see if it's changed since you forked, and if it
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hasn't, then you're in the clear. Now, if it has changed, then you can still merge, and it's
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going to try to apply those that merge. But of course, if you're just creating a conflict that
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merge might, well, could potentially fail, in which case you would have to decide what to do,
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and you'd get a message about what the conflict was, and so you could reasonably
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handle that conflict, hopefully. Gotcha. Yeah, we can get you so far, but just like with
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the get merges, we can't make all the decisions as a library. Yeah, you can't make some assumptions
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there, and like trying to over-enforce one direction or the other, obviously there'll be someone
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who's like, but I want it to be. I want it to be, you made me a, this is a bug. Yep, so I think
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the important thing is to give you the tools to reason about these hard problems, and if you don't
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really care, and you just want to do last-rate wins, you can still just merge and overwrite
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whatever has come in from the server, and maybe it's probably going to be as good as any data
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solution out there, but if you really want to get analytical, you can, and handle that conflict,
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so the conflict a little more sensitively. Yeah, I wonder what, if there's any other libraries
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that try to handle that, or like, I feel like some of this is pretty unique to Orbit,
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because like you said, other libraries try to just be like, yeah, last one just merge it,
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like it's cool. We'll just do the last change. Do either of you know anything about some of the
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other options, and how they handle things like this, like how Orbit compares to them?
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I don't know as to the basis of speaking publicly about it, to say like, I've done like an
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extensive comparing contrast, so I would be uncomfortable speaking about that. Like, there
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certainly are some more, some server libraries that are very much, that are JS based that
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purport to be a git database essentially, and I haven't released, put them through their
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paces so much, so I can't speak to them. Gotcha. Yeah, and are you incentivized to necessarily,
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right? Like, this is an open source project. It solves your issues, your expert on that,
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and it's not falling short for your needs, so you sort of like, when do you go out there,
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unless you're like trying to market it, and you want to see like, oh, this is still your alternative,
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this is why Orbit is better, but like, you're not really incentivized in that sense.
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It is interesting though, because I had perceived it some in different ways, and I've only worked
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with Orbit a little bit for our very specific use case, but I kind of saw it in like a way to like,
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okay, we're in an Ember app, and we're trying to be offline first to a degree, we're also trying
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to like, convert an application that was only local to utilize an exterior, so it was checking
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boxes for our specific use case too, but the composability aspect of it, and being able to like,
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step into it slowly is an interesting thing that I didn't realize as well, and I also understand
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it to be like, it plays the friendliest with Jason API, so that was fine for us, because we
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are in the Ember space, we're already like, conforming to that, but like, in terms of usage outside
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of Jason API, you said you could have you used it with other specs or no spec whatsoever,
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or Bratuel? Well, first of all, I would say, I appreciate your perspective on that, I'm glad
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that you were able to see it just at that client layer that you don't need to know about all the
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inner workings under the hood, so that's a good sign about getting some abstractions right,
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because you weren't even concerned about that like wiring things together, so that's great.
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There's composability within Orbit itself, it's made up of, you know, about 15 packages or so,
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and there are a number of them that are very low level that, well, they obviously, they build up
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in complexity and work together, and there is just at the sort of the top layer of the general
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Orbit libraries, this, you know, like, Orbit data, which provides a really general abstraction
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for working with data that is not Jason API specific at all, but to make Orbit truly useful to me,
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I had to, I built Orbit records on top of that, which is then used for all the standard sources,
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and so Orbit records has that notion of relationships and attributes that is kind of unique to
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Jason API. I've built some very simple things based on Orbit data. It is possible to build a
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GraphQL abstraction that would work on top of Orbit data, but I have not built that, but it's
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very appealing to me to see that built because the typings are all there, it could be, it could be
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possible to query that data layer with a GraphQL query, and it could serve the purpose of say,
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Apollo or something like that too, so it does have all those primitives in place, but I have focused
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on the Jason API, happy path for now, and other people, you know, use it with different libraries,
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but I think that's the bulk of the usage right now, and it's definitely been scratching my
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own itch, but obviously it's helped others like you all, and that's been my focus, but of course,
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given unlimited time and resources, I'd love to see through that, some of those other alternative
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realities, so. Yeah, I'd be interested to see, I don't really remember a ton, I don't know if you
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do check, but what RunSpired had talked a little bit about, it was like, they had a Jason API
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flavored GraphQL or something like that, I'd linked in where it was like sprinkle in IDs and
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attributes and things in the right spot, and all the sudden your GraphQL will just work in a
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Jason API based thing, so there's probably like a nice middle ground there where you could do some
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of that, maybe he would have thoughts on how we could help like get some more people into
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implement at least the middle ground to where like we can kind of use GraphQL or something like
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that. Yeah, I really like working with Chrissy that he always has some good perspectives, the library
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you're talking about, I believe is Ember M3, which is used by LinkedIn and was developed primarily
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by David Hamilton there, it works on top of Ember data, and it definitely is like a could be
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compatible with with Orbit at the right layer, it allows for a discoverable schema, which is the
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cool thing about it, I think is that it's you know, it doesn't attempt to prefront load any schema
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concerns, it goes out and discovers that schema and and deals with the data as it discovers the schema,
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so that sort of dynamic schema is certainly compatible with Orbit at the right layer.
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That's interesting, that kind of reminds me of Jason API schema, which was kind of a discoverable
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schema where you would like request that and then get what you could shape your response as kind of
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thing. Yeah, some people will associate like a description like an open API or JSON schema with
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their payload, so that the whole schema is laid out in the possible values and so they can validate
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their data at a particular endpoint, so that's that's certainly something that's been that's
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compatible with JSON API that works well with it, and there's no reason that a client library
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couldn't use that to discover this schema fully, and so it's all possible, all the hooks are there,
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and such, it's just there are some pragmatic realities about just how much dynamic stuff do you
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want in a client, especially if you're in a browser, just how much do you want to load in terms of
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the schema and the discoverability into your into your main thread and basically discover your
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data dynamically as you pull it down, it doesn't often provide like an optimized experience for a web app
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which has to pull down all of its libraries and you know it could get very heavy weight. Yeah, it's
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nuanced and say you're editing an entity or creating a new entity and you don't know what all the
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options are for that entity, the schema is useful then, right? You want to present and you could
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dynamically generate forms based on the schema available available in what's what are public fields
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and then pop that out. So yeah, I would agree there's like specific use cases around that. I will
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say be careful saying the word hooks, it's a trigger word or Robbie. Yeah, the one's been working
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and reacting, I don't think he really has, he just hates the concept of it. Yeah, so I like to see
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the things that react releases and says are cool and be like, why is this cool? Why don't we use
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classes instead of hooks and like like everything was nice, you could just set state easily like
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state equals this and now it's like, no, I want to say like I got to use this and affect this and do
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whatever. Just too complicated. I'm going to try to get Eric Elliott on so you guys can argue about
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it because I think that will be great. You know, he's been for years, everything's functional,
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you know, react is doing and right, reactive programming functions, functions, functions,
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classes are really, really bad as what he says. Since react is like really popular and
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probably 75% of web developers use it, I can say for certain I'm in the minority of saying all
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these things are not good. But I'm happy to debate it with anyone that wants to. Yeah, it's pretty
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much the 800 pound gorilla in the web development world. So it's and everything gets compared to it
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for right or wrong. So it does, it does make new concepts of reactivity rather difficult. Like
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I really do think that glimmer tracking and auto tracking is a very simple paradigm for
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reactivity and quite nice to work with. Our star beam now. And star beam is pretty exciting too.
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I mean, and that really cool thing about that is that it brings that concept of reactivity
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of auto tracking reactivity into every framework that wants to support it. So it does allow for
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that level of build for this type of reactivity once and then access it everywhere. You know,
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whether it's felt or amber or react. And it's a great, a great experiment. I hope it succeeds.
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I hope it gets some traction. So it's pretty cool. I think it's the frameworks have too long been
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siloed and that we are now seeing some really interesting cross framework solutions out there.
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You know, whether you're talking about star beam or even something like remix or astro,
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you know, which are not actually maybe they're primarily focused on on react because they are,
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you know, of course, that's that's the most popular, but they are explicitly pluggable with that
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reactivity layer. And I think that's really cool. And I always tried to build orbit from the start
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as a framework agnostic layer and and Ember sits as that reactivity layer. Ember orbit sits as
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that reactivity layer that just sits on top and it also works with with react and view and other
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libraries too. So because that decision to to be framework agnostic first was made now it's got
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that compatibility everywhere. So I'm happy about that. Yeah, some future proofing and I think it's
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good to BYOV on some things when many other libraries haven't really completely figured it out
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and that, you know, we should make the distinction there in the view library versus the framework
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thing where, you know, remix you write a whole app in redwood you write a whole app in Ember,
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you can write, you know, your whole app in react you bring your friends which friends who knows.
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Is what I like about next is that it's giving you some guardrails there of like we don't need all
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your friends. You can bring a couple friends, but we've got there's a guest list. Yeah, there's a
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guest list. We've got a group here. Right. Right. So I was just going to say like Robbie and I,
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we're talking a little bit Ember and orbit is our how we know you what we talk about. Do you do
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anything else? Oh, I do a lot. I mean, I've got it aligned so that I'm using them in my all those
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open source projects in my day job. So to speak my day contract and there's a nice, you know,
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synchronicity between my work life and my open source projects and so that's good. But I, I do
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love to get away from from the computer. So I do I do height a lot. I I have an old colonial house
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that I'm working I've been working on for ages and continue to improve. I live in New England
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here in New Southern New Hampshire. So I'm putting a slate roof over part of it. So that's been a
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fun little project. So restoring a roof that used to be slate that was was taken off and now I'm
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putting it back on. Why not? Yeah, slate is hard. Very easy to break. Literally. Yeah. Yeah,
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it's both hard and brittle. Yeah. But once you get it up there, right? And it can last for
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a hundred years or more. So yeah. So I enjoy like woodworking and doing doing projects and also I
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have a couple boys in college now, which is kind of wild for me. So we just got an empty nest
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my wife and I just have an empty nest this year for the first time and it's been nice having
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them home for the summer. So that's nice. And I have a great dog who just turned I think he's
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just turned 10, 10 years old and I've been working with a fun client for a while now that does
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a dog DNA or pet DNA analysis. And so that's been been really fun. Another like little synergy across
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my pets and my my home life and my my work life is there. So you got to test your dog out?
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Absolutely. Yeah. But I knew what he was in advance. It was more a confirmation of the test than
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of him, but nice. But he is a mix and he's an interesting mix. So it was good. So theta told you
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Poodle and he's a golden retriever. You'd have been like, I know better. I see no fluff.
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That's right. All my confidence would have been shaken in the scientists. You know,
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have to fix the machine learning there or something. I wonder how that works because like,
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you know, who decides what 100% Poodle is or whatever, right? Like there's slight variations.
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Oh, for sure. In that DNA, I would think so that's a hard problem. Yeah. You're going to find out
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Robbie that your dogs are only 70% French bulldog. That's it. Only 70. Well, one of them is way
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to tall. There's no way he's 100% French bulldog. He's got really long legs and they don't have that.
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So I think he's mixed with something refund. One of the interesting aspects of breeding is that
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even when you go to get a purebred dog, you're not, you know, they're to keep the gene pool healthy
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and such they need to always inner mix other breeds and such that maybe were originally used to
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form that breed. And so you need to keep that gene pool fresh. And so you might get a little bit.
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You're not getting 100% French bulldog, whatever that means. You're always getting a mix. And so
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there is a little bit of a fudge factor. And certainly there's a huge sample set of data there
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that goes into determining how each breed is classified. Yeah, definitely. So what kind of dog do
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you have? I used to say it's a mix, but what's it a mix of? He's a shepherd mix. He's a Belgian
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turviren and an Australian shepherd. So he's a big fluffy guy who keeps guard over all of us.
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Nice dog. I like human sized dogs. Yeah, he's not a not a lap dog. Yeah, human sized dogs,
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though, make me a little bit worried sometimes. Like one of our dogs is really aggressive. And if I
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had a human size really aggressive dog, it would be all over. Like you can't control that. Yeah,
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but ironically, I find it to be the case, like the larger the dog, the lazier and more passive they
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are. Like they just like, they're like, I could eat you depends in my experience. Yeah. And the
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frequency of small dog to aggressive is it just seems like more often that weaner dogs. They're
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all mean. Chihuahua's all jerks. Yep. So get smaller. We're stock. I don't know. True. Yeah, that's
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my opinion. Yeah, there's a reason there's a term ankle bite or right? I mean, it's good thing
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they don't get over the ankle. We definitely have some of those in the neighborhood that will go
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after our dog. And he's he just wants to just wants to play. But yeah, they have other ideas.
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Right. All right, Dan, you met many projects. Favorite power tool.
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Favorite power tool. Crosscut miter saw. Boom. Oh, yes. There you go. That's nice stuff. I don't
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have that one of those. I'm a carpenter on him. Have one. Not by trade just by name. Yeah, mostly
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by name. I do a workbench with like pegboards up. And then there's a lot of I take a lot of
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satisfaction in seeing how tools are organized on the pegboard. But like using them. And they sit
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00:41:02.700 --> 00:41:07.980
there. Yeah, you know, I get to fix little stuff here in there with big projects. I'm replacing
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like kids play house porch. I haven't had to do a lot lately. Good with that. Yeah, it's also
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00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:20.460
nice to not just do work and not do work in your free time, right? So to actually relax a little
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00:41:20.460 --> 00:41:27.180
bit. So oh, yeah, my kids are young. So oh, yeah, how old are your kids are three and five?
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So almost six. So relax in my free time. It's like that he needs a project to relax.
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00:41:34.140 --> 00:41:37.260
Yeah, something that needs concentration. So you can't bother me.
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00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:45.740
And Robbie, you're you're new to being a father yourself, right? Yeah, we've have a three
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00:41:45.740 --> 00:41:52.140
month old. So he was sleeping through the night for like two weeks and is now not again. So that's
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00:41:52.140 --> 00:42:02.540
fun. He always keep you on your toes. Yeah, luckily, they're not instantly mobile. And
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00:42:02.540 --> 00:42:09.260
they're you sort of all sort of get used to each other together and take things in stages and
387
00:42:09.260 --> 00:42:14.860
such. Even if I know some of those are a little painful. Yeah, I always think about how crazy it
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is that like humans are so helpless when they're babies. But you're that is a good point. If
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they were really mobile and could run around but had the same mental capacity that they have,
390
00:42:24.140 --> 00:42:39.660
that would be bad news. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you said you're in New Jersey, right? New Hampshire.
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00:42:39.660 --> 00:42:45.020
New Hampshire. Yeah, one of the news. You've been nowhere new. Yeah. Yeah, I don't really know a lot
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00:42:45.020 --> 00:42:50.700
about New Jersey or New Hampshire. So tell us about New Hampshire. Like what's what's the area
393
00:42:50.700 --> 00:42:56.780
you're in? Either like just pick one. Yeah, I used to visit my grandparents on Long Beach Island
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00:42:56.780 --> 00:43:03.340
in New Jersey every summer for like a month. And I had just a great, great time there on the Jersey
395
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:11.260
Shore. So it was not not at all the the Jersey Shore of popular TV show. Yeah. Yeah.
396
00:43:12.140 --> 00:43:18.460
Yes. Yeah. Chuck's pumping is fast. That's right. T-shirt time. T-shirt time. I lost a bet once and
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00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:26.220
I had to watch the first season. So there you go. So I have some New Jersey roots and some fond memories.
398
00:43:26.220 --> 00:43:32.060
But yeah, New Hampshire is a little bit chiller. And definitely there's a little more space.
399
00:43:32.060 --> 00:43:38.140
I think New Jersey might be like the most densely populated state. And New Hampshire's definitely not.
400
00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:43.500
There's a little elbow room. There are a lot of parks, a lot of state parks and such.
401
00:43:44.540 --> 00:43:50.460
I work at home. So you know, almost all all my clients are remote. So I actually don't need to
402
00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:57.660
travel too much. So but I'm only like an hour and 15 north of Boston. So I can get down to
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00:43:57.740 --> 00:44:04.540
the big city or an airport very easily. So it's a nice balance. I really, really enjoy it here.
404
00:44:04.540 --> 00:44:10.380
And it's great to just be able to get out in nature every day. Like and walk my dog off lead
405
00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:18.940
and stuff. And you know, without really worrying about the crowding or issues like that. But I
406
00:44:18.940 --> 00:44:25.340
get it is it's a bit of a privilege to be working at home. I guess a lot more people have discovered
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00:44:25.340 --> 00:44:31.180
that privilege over the last few years. But yeah, it used to be a lot more people commuting from
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00:44:31.180 --> 00:44:37.180
here. Say down to Boston. And I never really wanted to do that on the on the daily. Yeah, options
409
00:44:37.180 --> 00:44:43.660
are nice. Forced commute isn't so much. But that's nice. I used to go to Boston all the time
410
00:44:43.660 --> 00:44:48.940
because I worked for a company there called Aquea. And so a few times a year go to Boston. And then
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00:44:48.940 --> 00:44:55.740
I had teams. I used to be an engineering manager for them. So I had teams in Toronto too. So it's
412
00:44:55.740 --> 00:44:59.740
like Toronto, Boston all the time. Just not in the winter. What do you do in the winter?
413
00:45:01.980 --> 00:45:09.820
Well, we do like snorkeling and such and cross country skiing and just hiking and such. I kind
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00:45:09.820 --> 00:45:15.820
of like the seasons grew up in the northeast. So I feel at home with the season. So I don't mind
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00:45:15.820 --> 00:45:21.180
the cold. I just mind when winter starts to drag on a little bit if I can get away and march
416
00:45:21.180 --> 00:45:27.500
or something. Life is good. Do you have a snow blower? I share one with a neighbor. So just curious.
417
00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:35.500
Now we're getting really personal here. Yeah, I was going to say, what was that movie where it was
418
00:45:35.500 --> 00:45:42.140
like? Yeah, mother was a snow blower. I don't know. No, but that sounds like a fun movie.
419
00:45:42.940 --> 00:45:48.220
Yeah, I'll Google it. Figure out later. Post it on your Twitter. We talked to West Boss a little
420
00:45:48.220 --> 00:45:52.860
bit about tractors and he has a snow blower attachment on his and stuff. I'm just into that stuff
421
00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:59.340
because we moved out to the country. So we have 10 acres of land now and have to mow all the time
422
00:45:59.340 --> 00:46:07.740
and like it's way different than how life was before. Oh wow. Yeah, 10 acres. That's a serious
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00:46:07.740 --> 00:46:13.980
commitment. I hope you you have some of it as as wooded radar. No, you don't have to mow all 10
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00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:21.020
acres deal. Some of it is like big fields that I don't mow, but like a few times a year. But yeah,
425
00:46:21.020 --> 00:46:29.020
it all is does have to be mowed at one point. Okay, okay. So you've got some hay bales and such. Yeah,
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00:46:29.020 --> 00:46:34.780
essentially. Yeah. What is it? Maybe I'm wrong. There was that movie Manchester by the sea. Really
427
00:46:34.780 --> 00:46:41.660
sad Casey Affleck movie. Was that and that's a New Hampshire, right? Manchester and I don't know.
428
00:46:41.660 --> 00:46:47.580
I mean, there is a Manchester New Hampshire, but Manchester by the sea is that I actually have not
429
00:46:47.580 --> 00:46:55.580
seen that movie. So I don't know. I mean, Casey Affleck is like a Boston guy also. That's a good
430
00:46:55.580 --> 00:47:01.420
question. I guess I could look it up, but have you seen it a little while ago? Yeah, it's good,
431
00:47:01.420 --> 00:47:07.660
but I didn't take it in from a geographical perspective. So and then just kind of triggered that
432
00:47:07.660 --> 00:47:12.540
and me like, Oh, yeah, there was that. And he's from that kind of area. I think that was New Hampshire.
433
00:47:12.540 --> 00:47:18.220
I could be wrong. I could totally be off and making it up. It's possible. I do that. Okay,
434
00:47:18.220 --> 00:47:24.300
so I mean, but it was America. Yeah, not not England. Yeah, no, that's the better Manchester though.
435
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:32.220
I mean, I don't know if you noticed my hat, but the United one. Yeah. So I like that one.
436
00:47:32.220 --> 00:47:38.460
I've been there. I'm a fan. So related. I've been Caitlin and I watched the first two seasons of
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00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:45.180
Ted Lasso. So I have watched a little bit of soccer related things now. Yeah, you're you're
438
00:47:45.180 --> 00:47:51.660
basically a fan. Yeah, we'll go to a DC United game when I'm back next time. I'm down. Nice.
439
00:47:51.660 --> 00:47:57.580
I think anything is better than going to like golf. Like that would just be too slow. Like
440
00:47:57.580 --> 00:48:01.020
as long as there's a little bit of action, I'm cool with it. Yeah, there's plenty of action.
441
00:48:01.020 --> 00:48:06.300
And they have a nice field that I've not been to. So I used to live in DC. And basically,
442
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:11.900
they were building that stadium and it was like near I was living in the Navy art. So it was like
443
00:48:11.900 --> 00:48:18.300
not far from my house at all. And it opened that. So I think we moved, I don't know, in April and
444
00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:23.820
it opened when the season started in like August or something. I don't know. Yeah, it was like so
445
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:29.740
close. So I've not been spice say I would like to go to Audi field. Chuck is looking for an excuse
446
00:48:29.740 --> 00:48:36.940
Robbie always excuses to get into things. Hey, come fix the internet in the office and we'll go.
447
00:48:37.820 --> 00:48:42.380
Perfect excuses to get into things excuses to get out of things. It's all an excuse.
448
00:48:42.620 --> 00:48:49.820
Yeah. So we all need. All right, we're about at time here. Was there anything we missed Dan
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00:48:49.820 --> 00:48:53.900
that you would like to bring up? Anything you'd like to plug? Anything like that?
450
00:48:53.900 --> 00:48:59.900
I would say that although Jason API itself probably seems fairly dormant. We're actually on the
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00:48:59.900 --> 00:49:07.020
verge of a pretty exciting new release of version 11 and it adds some new capabilities and
452
00:49:07.420 --> 00:49:13.980
adds a whole bunch of extensibility. So I'm excited to get that out. So basically it provides
453
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:21.420
a negotiation mechanism for extensions and profiles. So ways to extend the spec or say how you're
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using the spec in a particular way. So in a more opinionated way. So there actually is news on
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00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:33.580
that front finally after after working through it over over the years. So that's the thing I'm
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00:49:33.580 --> 00:49:41.180
currently focused on most open source. I'm excited about that. And yeah, that's I'll leave it at
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00:49:41.180 --> 00:49:46.060
that. Awesome. All right. Cool. Yeah, so check out Jason API if you haven't recently.
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00:49:46.060 --> 00:49:51.020
New cool stuff coming. Thanks for being on Dan. Everyone that was listening. If you liked it,
459
00:49:51.020 --> 00:49:53.820
please subscribe and we'll catch you guys next time.
460
00:49:54.460 --> 00:50:03.180
Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web in wet. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and
461
00:50:03.180 --> 00:50:08.940
produced by podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two
462
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and leave us a rating. Maybe a review as long as it's good. You can subscribe to future episodes on
463
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Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and the show,
464
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check out our website at shipshaped.io.
1
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Hey everybody, welcome to another whiskey web and whatnot with myself Robert William
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Wagner and my co-host Charles William Carpenter the third with our guests today Dan
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Gebhardt from many many things. Ember, core team, emeritus I believe and Jason
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API and orbit and lots of stuff. The most important bit here is so it's
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Gebhardt it's not Gebhardt. Yeah you got it. Oh very good. So I said it right.
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That's the first test. Yeah okay. Nice. Yeah yeah thanks for joining us. If you
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want to give a quick intro into who you are what you do and just a few
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sentences and let's even know your. Sure thanks. Yeah I suppose most people
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listening to this will know me from some my open source work I've been working
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on the web since the late 90s so going way back and I really got started in
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open source about I would say 10 or 12 years ago so I've gotten to the point
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where I had almost too many things going. I was a part of the member core team
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where Ganjase and API and a pretty big project with orbit JS and I actually
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alumniized myself from the core team last year so I could give a little focus to
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to some of the other projects. I also do consulting mostly on web projects
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mostly using the tech that I help work on in open source so I have a small
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consultancy with my brother Larry and he tends to work on the back end I tend
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to work on the front end although we both are sort of false back devs so not
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unlike ship shape code but I also work a lot with tilde company co-founded by
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Leia and Yehuda cats and others and we often do our consulting through them so
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some of our clients will only know us through them. Pass out of the bag now with
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a K. There you go. So in terms of like back end technologies that you work with
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due to Ruby or is Yehuda pulling you into Rust or something else? Yeah we mostly
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use Ruby and you know primarily Rails. Larry's the lead maintainer of JSON API
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resources which is a pretty popular gem that makes it pretty straightforward to
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stand up a JSON API server to Rails so that that's been our main focus so we
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sort of have that JSON API contract at the middle and we tend to build on
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either side of it those are most of the projects we work on. Gotcha. So before we
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get too deep into all this tech though let's open some whiskey. Nice. That's why
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everyone's here really. So we have we heard you like scotch so we got something
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that's hopefully kind of scotchy but a little bit different so this is the
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Nika single malt Miyagi Kyo. I don't know how to pronounce that exactly. Sounds
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accurate to me. You get points for trying though that's good as I could do. It's
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been ages I've only had one I think one Japanese scotch before so this should
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be a good adventure. Nice. I think you're legally unable to call it that. Yeah.
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They can't be called scotch. There are no Japanese scotches. There are Japanese
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whiskies like an American champagne. Exactly. You can't do that. Okay. Well it's got a nice
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like kind of PD smell to it. Scotchy scotch scotch. Doesn't have a cork though.
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There's no pop. No. No pop. Scotchy scotch scotch. That's a big pour.
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Ready. I have had other Nicos. Yeah. It's a pretty popular Japanese brand I believe. Yeah.
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There's one that's like a blend called from the barrel. It's a good one I've had a
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couple of times and I've had their 12 and their 17 before. Oh in the coffee grain one.
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One's pretty good. So this is 100% malted barley. It's 90 proof and it says on the back that it
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uses less PT malt and is distilled in a hot still heated by indirect steam for those that know
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what any of that means. That looks like a lot of whiskey. Yeah. It's probably too much.
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Also it either looks like apple juice or pee. Yeah. Don't let that influence your thoughts though.
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With the smell was more PD but I actually get a little smoke on the finish.
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I was getting a little bit of lemon on the smell like acidic. Yeah. Yeah. It's very smooth.
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It's not aggressive in any way. It's very, I think it's very easy to drink. Yeah.
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Not too peaty, not too smokey but pretty balanced. Yeah. I would agree with that. It's got a little hug.
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Yeah. I would say it's a good middle of the road. A little bit of peat, a little bit of smoke,
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a little bit of sweetness. I think for someone who doesn't love a real PD scotch, this is pretty good.
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Definitely. Yeah. All right, Dan. So you are familiar with our rating system, cleverly following
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the octopus, eight tentacles. So one to eight, one being horrible throat out of the window,
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eight being, I will never drink anything else every chance I get on this one or anything in between.
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How do you feel? I think it's at least six and a half. Pretty good. Is it cruel to cut the tentacle?
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I don't know. We do have. Ouch. It's painful. People have. Does sound painful. Yeah. People do.
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You know, there's rules in so many areas in life like not having any rules around this feels good to me.
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Nice. Yeah. I need a place to rebel. Drobbing, I've been like trying to like categorize now,
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instead of being like out of all whiskeys, what would you think? So I would say between like
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Japanese whiskeys and scotchos that we've had thus far or just in life, I guess. I would put this
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at like a seven. I would definitely have this again. That was in the moon for something like that.
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Like you said, I think it's really well balanced, but it has flavor. It seems to kind of evolve every
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time I take a little sip. I think Robbie got into my head. So I am getting a little lemony kind of,
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yeah, I don't know, but getting a little lemony there. Very fresh. Yes. Yeah, I think having had like
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10 or less scotches and Japanese or scotch style, I guess, whiskeys in general, I would rate this
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in the top 15% of the ones I've had. So based on my tiny bit of experience and to this type of whisky,
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I'd give it I think a seven. Sounds good. I would buy that. It's a great summer whisky. I think
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doesn't overpower you. Yeah. I would go as far to say as like I agree with that and I would even have
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this over like an ice ball or large cube or something. And Robbie knows I'm not one to really
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change my whisky much, but yeah, given this, I could see with a little chill, at least with like
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some whisky stones to give it a little coolness. I think would be great. Yeah, definitely. Do you
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guys add any water to your whisky or do you drink it straight? So I used to be a little more
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diverse in that, like not normally, but if there's some really like high proof barrel proof stuff,
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you know, it's like 120 or something, I would do that a little bit first and kind of see like,
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all of this that opening up for me and like take a little edge off before I would go down the
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cube. But it is interesting when I try new things, when I used to do that, I would like,
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okay, you get a poor the first bit, you try just as is and then you add a little water, a few drops
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of water, change it up. Yeah, I tend to add a few drops. I used to do ice in mine all the time.
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I had a totally not legit glass and I would just do tons and tons of ice and check would always
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get upset at me for not doing it the correct way. So, you know, we have these somewhat legit
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glasses now, the the Glencarn or whatever it is. They are. Yeah, they're in New Orleans. They're
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basically like two layer Glencarns. So it's a Glencarn in the middle and then has the outside layer
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to like stop your hand from warming whisky, which is maybe excessive. Yeah, that's a good idea.
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Yeah, I have some coffee and tea mugs like that, why not whisky mugs that are dual layer like
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that, that makes a lot of sense. It's the same purpose as a stem on a glass, right? Yeah, absolutely.
87
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Well, the Glencarn shape is also supposed to change how you know is the whisky or something,
88
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but so I don't know, supposed to give you both things. Yeah, I think it does work when it's like
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really high proof. You get that like not as much alcohol to the nose. Yeah. So,
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New Orleans, if you're listening, we love your glasses. We think they're perfect for everyone.
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I would gladly have two more. We've been working on sponsorship for a while, but I don't think we're
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doing a very good job because this assumes that in our tight little world that a someone with power
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at New Orleans glasses could actually do something. Yeah. And have heard us. Yeah, you might have to
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play up the whisky and the whatnot and play down the web. Yeah, maybe you're spreading yourself
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a little thin for the general audience. Those three things, that's true. And you know,
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although I love it, I love the format. It's the good mix. Yeah, I think for the specific
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subset of people that listen to it, it's a great format, but yeah, there are some people I think
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that are only interested in one of the three. And then they are kind of like, I wish they'd not
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to listen to 15 minutes of talking about whiskey before we get to the rest or, you know, whatever,
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but it is what it is. We have fun with it. This is what we like. Yeah. You're the ones putting in
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in the work. We capture weeks. So we'll enjoy it. True. The hardest part is because of I'm on
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West Coast time and Robbie's on East Coast time. And so we do this at like two o'clock in the
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afternoon. And then I have some whiskey. And then it's like, do you want to do any more work today?
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I don't want to. That's the hardest part. Right, right. This is just just two o'clock for you,
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Chuck. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah. I'll power through it somehow. So yeah, I guess we test a little bit
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on some tech earlier, but let's dive a little bit deeper into some of this here. So just the first
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thing that we should talk about is, well, most of what we're going to talk about is orbit, I guess.
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And so what led you to create orbit? Hmm. It was a good seven or eight years ago when I first started
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orbit. And I was basically mapping out the data needs for an application eyes building and
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trying to make sense of all those requirements and trying to apply them to other packages like
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ember data. I was already in the ember world. And so I was trying to how I could say adapt
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ember data to my needs. And I really couldn't back then. And I don't think I could even now with
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the set of requirements I had, which was, you know, basically an offline first app that had an
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optimistic UI that needed, you know, to store data locally in the browser, obviously, and sync it
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up with a remote server, so work offline and and online. But also not just do that, but like
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only some of the data needed to be offline. Like there's some data that makes sense to be offline
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and other data that really only makes sense when it's when you're hitting a server and you're
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getting it all the time from straight from the source. So with all those requirements, I was trying
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to put together how I could, you know, rationalize these problems. And it's required for this app,
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I was building. And I started to deconstruct, you know, the whole data universe, essentially,
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all the aspects of a data library. And I kind of looked at it from first principles. And then,
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you know, orbit was the result of all that work. I just I started to have a pretty clear vision of
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what how I could tackle this set of problems and meet these requirements without trying to
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end another package way beyond what it could was designed to do in the first place.
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And what I came away with with orbit, I think, is something that is sometimes, you know,
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building for the hard case first also helps clarify the simple case. And I think that
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orbit really scales from the very simple to the very complex set of requirements because I had
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that really tricky application that I was trying to build, you know, back in 2014 that that had
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all these needs. While I was building something kind of from scratch, putting an Ember layer for
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reactivity over the top, which is what Ember orbit is, then I started to look at every piece of it
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and try to break it down into components. And it's a pretty composable data framework, I think,
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that lets you think about your sources of data independently of the way that data flows between
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them, but apply the same template to all your sources, treat them all the same query from them,
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the same update them the same with the same language. You track all the data in a uniform format,
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but allow for all these edges where data might be sent in JSON API format to the server,
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or it could support GraphQL, could be a simple rest, work with simple rest servers, it could work
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with sockets, but, you know, it also could work with index DB, and so the only way I could make
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sense of all this was to normalize how to interact with every source of data, and then the other
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piece is all the blue code, how do you get these sources to interact with each other, and that also
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made sense to like if they're talking in the same language, they can all listen to, you can set up
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listeners to the, you know, when they change, and then you can also, when a change happens,
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you can update them, and so that's kind of got focused on the sources, the normalized format,
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and the querying, and updates, and then, but also this blue code that'll have, you know, put them
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all together in a single app. So that's the composability layer that you kind of were touching on.
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So yeah, it's interesting, because you talk about a lot of like solving different parts of those
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puzzle, that puzzle separately, drawing them together in a composable way, depending on your
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architecture and needs, so like you mentioned react, or interacting with index DB, for example,
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like you could you utilize it as like an ORM for index DB? Yeah, absolutely, like one small part of
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that, you could use ORBIT to just query index DB, like DEXY, JS, or something, right, like,
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you know, some wrapper for index DB, you could just use the ORBIT source to query it, and you could,
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you know, query all records of a type from index DB and leave it to that ORBIT source to
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find those records, and then also update those records when you want them to, and so you could
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also use it just as a simple ORM for your rest server, or at the very simplest case, you could use
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it to manage data in memory, just a memory source, which is what a lot of single page apps are built
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with a cache, and so that cache needs to be managed somehow, and needs to be queried and updated,
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so you could just use that piece of the puzzle. Yeah, that's interesting, because if you're not
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concerned with like a database persistency outside of the user's browser, and if you wanted to like
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use it initially for like, say, a POC project or something, and so instead of mocking things,
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I can have real interactions that are stored, and then look at, oh, when my data source is available
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later on, now I'm going to introduce a syncing strategy, you know, things like that, so yeah,
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that's interesting, so having a plan and then you can composably like step through, adding or like
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using ORBIT as your data manager, and then that seems pretty interesting actually, I didn't
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realize that fast enough. Yeah, that's one of my favorite aspects of working with ORBIT is
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using it as simply as possible to just prototype and app really quickly, and I fear that, you know,
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because ORBIT has all these potential, you know, sources you can work with, and use cases that
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it can solve, people overlook the very simplest case, which becomes incredibly simple when you're
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just dealing with memory or a cache and memory, and it makes it very easy to build to prototype
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a POC and just provide a simple data layer in an app, even though, you know, it can do the more
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complicated things, it doesn't have to. Well, we started using InverData with Swatch, and then we had
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a problem where we needed to undo and redo things. Well, I'm kind of getting down the wrong path here,
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but it was really good to be able to release a thing that was just kind of indexed DB based,
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because we just wanted data locally to begin with, and we wanted to get that really good,
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and then like one of the best things about ORBIT, I think, is that I'm going to get the terminology
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wrong here, so you can correct me, but like the thought that each update or transaction or whatever
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is like, like you can replay them, they're always the same back and forth, like they're guaranteed to,
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oh yeah, they're immutable in history like that. Yeah, yeah, that's what worked for us.
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Yeah, you could think of it like Git, you know, where you have commits that you can play and
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replay, and in fact, a lot of the terminology for like the memory sources, which have an
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immutable cache that the root is based on Git, so you can do a like a rebase, a fork, a merge,
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and so you can track changes deterministically and create things like an undo, redo stack.
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You can also allow for like complex editing contexts where you fork this immutable data structure,
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which is really cheap, it doesn't involve any actual mutations to fork it, and then you're working
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in a branch like you would be in Git, and then you can either just throw that away, or you know,
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like say you do a bunch of complex edits, they're never going to touch the main branch anymore,
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until you decide to merge them back in, and so he gives you a lot of control over changes,
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and your data that's in memory, because it's built on those same sort of simple building blocks,
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like Git commits essentially. So would forking and merging be kind of a replacement for something
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like invert change sets, or something like that, where you could like fork make all the changes
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you want, and then if you decided you wanted to roll it back, you could just not merge it,
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or something like that. Yeah, right. You wouldn't have made any changes to the main branch,
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it's like being able to check out a new branch in Git and try and experiment, and then just
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throw that away if it doesn't work out. Meanwhile, you know, the main branch might accept updates
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from the server, might get updates from sockets and such, and be updated, and then you want
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to merge those changes back in, and you know, sometimes there could be a theory conflicts too,
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which you'd have to deal with. So there's all those complexities if you decide to work with it that
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way. Overall, I think just like working with Git, it provides a pretty clear mental model,
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at least, and doesn't try to oversimplify things that are inherently complex, like, you know,
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like data merge conflicts and such. Someone has to figure that out, and it can't always be the library.
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Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of weird stuff that could happen if you went offline, or someone
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else edited the same things you edited, or something like that before you tried to save it. So
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in that case, what happens in orbit, like how does it flag that there is a conflict?
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When you issue a merge, you could number one, you could check first to see if essentially the main
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branch or the main cache has progressed, has had any commits to it. I'll just speak and get
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terminology to simplify things for the listeners who aren't using orbit perhaps. But
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you could check the latest commit on main and see if it's changed since you forked, and if it
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hasn't, then you're in the clear. Now, if it has changed, then you can still merge, and it's
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going to try to apply those that merge. But of course, if you're just creating a conflict that
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merge might, well, could potentially fail, in which case you would have to decide what to do,
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and you'd get a message about what the conflict was, and so you could reasonably
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handle that conflict, hopefully. Gotcha. Yeah, we can get you so far, but just like with
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the get merges, we can't make all the decisions as a library. Yeah, you can't make some assumptions
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there, and like trying to over-enforce one direction or the other, obviously there'll be someone
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who's like, but I want it to be. I want it to be, you made me a, this is a bug. Yep, so I think
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the important thing is to give you the tools to reason about these hard problems, and if you don't
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really care, and you just want to do last-rate wins, you can still just merge and overwrite
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whatever has come in from the server, and maybe it's probably going to be as good as any data
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solution out there, but if you really want to get analytical, you can, and handle that conflict,
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so the conflict a little more sensitively. Yeah, I wonder what, if there's any other libraries
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that try to handle that, or like, I feel like some of this is pretty unique to Orbit,
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because like you said, other libraries try to just be like, yeah, last one just merge it,
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like it's cool. We'll just do the last change. Do either of you know anything about some of the
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other options, and how they handle things like this, like how Orbit compares to them?
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I don't know as to the basis of speaking publicly about it, to say like, I've done like an
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extensive comparing contrast, so I would be uncomfortable speaking about that. Like, there
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certainly are some more, some server libraries that are very much, that are JS based that
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purport to be a git database essentially, and I haven't released, put them through their
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paces so much, so I can't speak to them. Gotcha. Yeah, and are you incentivized to necessarily,
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right? Like, this is an open source project. It solves your issues, your expert on that,
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and it's not falling short for your needs, so you sort of like, when do you go out there,
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unless you're like trying to market it, and you want to see like, oh, this is still your alternative,
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this is why Orbit is better, but like, you're not really incentivized in that sense.
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It is interesting though, because I had perceived it some in different ways, and I've only worked
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with Orbit a little bit for our very specific use case, but I kind of saw it in like a way to like,
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okay, we're in an Ember app, and we're trying to be offline first to a degree, we're also trying
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to like, convert an application that was only local to utilize an exterior, so it was checking
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boxes for our specific use case too, but the composability aspect of it, and being able to like,
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step into it slowly is an interesting thing that I didn't realize as well, and I also understand
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it to be like, it plays the friendliest with Jason API, so that was fine for us, because we
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are in the Ember space, we're already like, conforming to that, but like, in terms of usage outside
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of Jason API, you said you could have you used it with other specs or no spec whatsoever,
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or Bratuel? Well, first of all, I would say, I appreciate your perspective on that, I'm glad
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that you were able to see it just at that client layer that you don't need to know about all the
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inner workings under the hood, so that's a good sign about getting some abstractions right,
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because you weren't even concerned about that like wiring things together, so that's great.
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There's composability within Orbit itself, it's made up of, you know, about 15 packages or so,
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and there are a number of them that are very low level that, well, they obviously, they build up
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in complexity and work together, and there is just at the sort of the top layer of the general
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Orbit libraries, this, you know, like, Orbit data, which provides a really general abstraction
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for working with data that is not Jason API specific at all, but to make Orbit truly useful to me,
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I had to, I built Orbit records on top of that, which is then used for all the standard sources,
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and so Orbit records has that notion of relationships and attributes that is kind of unique to
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Jason API. I've built some very simple things based on Orbit data. It is possible to build a
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GraphQL abstraction that would work on top of Orbit data, but I have not built that, but it's
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very appealing to me to see that built because the typings are all there, it could be, it could be
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possible to query that data layer with a GraphQL query, and it could serve the purpose of say,
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Apollo or something like that too, so it does have all those primitives in place, but I have focused
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on the Jason API, happy path for now, and other people, you know, use it with different libraries,
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but I think that's the bulk of the usage right now, and it's definitely been scratching my
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own itch, but obviously it's helped others like you all, and that's been my focus, but of course,
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given unlimited time and resources, I'd love to see through that, some of those other alternative
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realities, so. Yeah, I'd be interested to see, I don't really remember a ton, I don't know if you
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do check, but what RunSpired had talked a little bit about, it was like, they had a Jason API
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flavored GraphQL or something like that, I'd linked in where it was like sprinkle in IDs and
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attributes and things in the right spot, and all the sudden your GraphQL will just work in a
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Jason API based thing, so there's probably like a nice middle ground there where you could do some
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of that, maybe he would have thoughts on how we could help like get some more people into
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implement at least the middle ground to where like we can kind of use GraphQL or something like
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that. Yeah, I really like working with Chrissy that he always has some good perspectives, the library
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you're talking about, I believe is Ember M3, which is used by LinkedIn and was developed primarily
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by David Hamilton there, it works on top of Ember data, and it definitely is like a could be
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compatible with with Orbit at the right layer, it allows for a discoverable schema, which is the
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cool thing about it, I think is that it's you know, it doesn't attempt to prefront load any schema
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concerns, it goes out and discovers that schema and and deals with the data as it discovers the schema,
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so that sort of dynamic schema is certainly compatible with Orbit at the right layer.
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That's interesting, that kind of reminds me of Jason API schema, which was kind of a discoverable
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schema where you would like request that and then get what you could shape your response as kind of
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thing. Yeah, some people will associate like a description like an open API or JSON schema with
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their payload, so that the whole schema is laid out in the possible values and so they can validate
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their data at a particular endpoint, so that's that's certainly something that's been that's
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compatible with JSON API that works well with it, and there's no reason that a client library
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couldn't use that to discover this schema fully, and so it's all possible, all the hooks are there,
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and such, it's just there are some pragmatic realities about just how much dynamic stuff do you
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want in a client, especially if you're in a browser, just how much do you want to load in terms of
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the schema and the discoverability into your into your main thread and basically discover your
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data dynamically as you pull it down, it doesn't often provide like an optimized experience for a web app
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which has to pull down all of its libraries and you know it could get very heavy weight. Yeah, it's
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nuanced and say you're editing an entity or creating a new entity and you don't know what all the
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options are for that entity, the schema is useful then, right? You want to present and you could
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dynamically generate forms based on the schema available available in what's what are public fields
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and then pop that out. So yeah, I would agree there's like specific use cases around that. I will
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say be careful saying the word hooks, it's a trigger word or Robbie. Yeah, the one's been working
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and reacting, I don't think he really has, he just hates the concept of it. Yeah, so I like to see
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the things that react releases and says are cool and be like, why is this cool? Why don't we use
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classes instead of hooks and like like everything was nice, you could just set state easily like
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state equals this and now it's like, no, I want to say like I got to use this and affect this and do
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whatever. Just too complicated. I'm going to try to get Eric Elliott on so you guys can argue about
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it because I think that will be great. You know, he's been for years, everything's functional,
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you know, react is doing and right, reactive programming functions, functions, functions,
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classes are really, really bad as what he says. Since react is like really popular and
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probably 75% of web developers use it, I can say for certain I'm in the minority of saying all
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these things are not good. But I'm happy to debate it with anyone that wants to. Yeah, it's pretty
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much the 800 pound gorilla in the web development world. So it's and everything gets compared to it
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for right or wrong. So it does, it does make new concepts of reactivity rather difficult. Like
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I really do think that glimmer tracking and auto tracking is a very simple paradigm for
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reactivity and quite nice to work with. Our star beam now. And star beam is pretty exciting too.
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I mean, and that really cool thing about that is that it brings that concept of reactivity
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of auto tracking reactivity into every framework that wants to support it. So it does allow for
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that level of build for this type of reactivity once and then access it everywhere. You know,
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whether it's felt or amber or react. And it's a great, a great experiment. I hope it succeeds.
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I hope it gets some traction. So it's pretty cool. I think it's the frameworks have too long been
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siloed and that we are now seeing some really interesting cross framework solutions out there.
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You know, whether you're talking about star beam or even something like remix or astro,
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you know, which are not actually maybe they're primarily focused on on react because they are,
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you know, of course, that's that's the most popular, but they are explicitly pluggable with that
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reactivity layer. And I think that's really cool. And I always tried to build orbit from the start
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as a framework agnostic layer and and Ember sits as that reactivity layer. Ember orbit sits as
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that reactivity layer that just sits on top and it also works with with react and view and other
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libraries too. So because that decision to to be framework agnostic first was made now it's got
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that compatibility everywhere. So I'm happy about that. Yeah, some future proofing and I think it's
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good to BYOV on some things when many other libraries haven't really completely figured it out
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and that, you know, we should make the distinction there in the view library versus the framework
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thing where, you know, remix you write a whole app in redwood you write a whole app in Ember,
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you can write, you know, your whole app in react you bring your friends which friends who knows.
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Is what I like about next is that it's giving you some guardrails there of like we don't need all
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your friends. You can bring a couple friends, but we've got there's a guest list. Yeah, there's a
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guest list. We've got a group here. Right. Right. So I was just going to say like Robbie and I,
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we're talking a little bit Ember and orbit is our how we know you what we talk about. Do you do
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anything else? Oh, I do a lot. I mean, I've got it aligned so that I'm using them in my all those
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open source projects in my day job. So to speak my day contract and there's a nice, you know,
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synchronicity between my work life and my open source projects and so that's good. But I, I do
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love to get away from from the computer. So I do I do height a lot. I I have an old colonial house
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that I'm working I've been working on for ages and continue to improve. I live in New England
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here in New Southern New Hampshire. So I'm putting a slate roof over part of it. So that's been a
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fun little project. So restoring a roof that used to be slate that was was taken off and now I'm
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putting it back on. Why not? Yeah, slate is hard. Very easy to break. Literally. Yeah. Yeah,
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it's both hard and brittle. Yeah. But once you get it up there, right? And it can last for
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a hundred years or more. So yeah. So I enjoy like woodworking and doing doing projects and also I
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have a couple boys in college now, which is kind of wild for me. So we just got an empty nest
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my wife and I just have an empty nest this year for the first time and it's been nice having
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them home for the summer. So that's nice. And I have a great dog who just turned I think he's
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just turned 10, 10 years old and I've been working with a fun client for a while now that does
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a dog DNA or pet DNA analysis. And so that's been been really fun. Another like little synergy across
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my pets and my my home life and my my work life is there. So you got to test your dog out?
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Absolutely. Yeah. But I knew what he was in advance. It was more a confirmation of the test than
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of him, but nice. But he is a mix and he's an interesting mix. So it was good. So theta told you
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Poodle and he's a golden retriever. You'd have been like, I know better. I see no fluff.
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That's right. All my confidence would have been shaken in the scientists. You know,
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have to fix the machine learning there or something. I wonder how that works because like,
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you know, who decides what 100% Poodle is or whatever, right? Like there's slight variations.
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Oh, for sure. In that DNA, I would think so that's a hard problem. Yeah. You're going to find out
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Robbie that your dogs are only 70% French bulldog. That's it. Only 70. Well, one of them is way
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to tall. There's no way he's 100% French bulldog. He's got really long legs and they don't have that.
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So I think he's mixed with something refund. One of the interesting aspects of breeding is that
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even when you go to get a purebred dog, you're not, you know, they're to keep the gene pool healthy
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and such they need to always inner mix other breeds and such that maybe were originally used to
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form that breed. And so you need to keep that gene pool fresh. And so you might get a little bit.
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You're not getting 100% French bulldog, whatever that means. You're always getting a mix. And so
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there is a little bit of a fudge factor. And certainly there's a huge sample set of data there
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that goes into determining how each breed is classified. Yeah, definitely. So what kind of dog do
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you have? I used to say it's a mix, but what's it a mix of? He's a shepherd mix. He's a Belgian
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turviren and an Australian shepherd. So he's a big fluffy guy who keeps guard over all of us.
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Nice dog. I like human sized dogs. Yeah, he's not a not a lap dog. Yeah, human sized dogs,
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though, make me a little bit worried sometimes. Like one of our dogs is really aggressive. And if I
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had a human size really aggressive dog, it would be all over. Like you can't control that. Yeah,
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but ironically, I find it to be the case, like the larger the dog, the lazier and more passive they
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are. Like they just like, they're like, I could eat you depends in my experience. Yeah. And the
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frequency of small dog to aggressive is it just seems like more often that weaner dogs. They're
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all mean. Chihuahua's all jerks. Yep. So get smaller. We're stock. I don't know. True. Yeah, that's
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my opinion. Yeah, there's a reason there's a term ankle bite or right? I mean, it's good thing
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they don't get over the ankle. We definitely have some of those in the neighborhood that will go
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after our dog. And he's he just wants to just wants to play. But yeah, they have other ideas.
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Right. All right, Dan, you met many projects. Favorite power tool.
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Favorite power tool. Crosscut miter saw. Boom. Oh, yes. There you go. That's nice stuff. I don't
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have that one of those. I'm a carpenter on him. Have one. Not by trade just by name. Yeah, mostly
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by name. I do a workbench with like pegboards up. And then there's a lot of I take a lot of
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satisfaction in seeing how tools are organized on the pegboard. But like using them. And they sit
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there. Yeah, you know, I get to fix little stuff here in there with big projects. I'm replacing
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like kids play house porch. I haven't had to do a lot lately. Good with that. Yeah, it's also
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nice to not just do work and not do work in your free time, right? So to actually relax a little
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bit. So oh, yeah, my kids are young. So oh, yeah, how old are your kids are three and five?
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So almost six. So relax in my free time. It's like that he needs a project to relax.
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Yeah, something that needs concentration. So you can't bother me.
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And Robbie, you're you're new to being a father yourself, right? Yeah, we've have a three
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month old. So he was sleeping through the night for like two weeks and is now not again. So that's
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fun. He always keep you on your toes. Yeah, luckily, they're not instantly mobile. And
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they're you sort of all sort of get used to each other together and take things in stages and
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such. Even if I know some of those are a little painful. Yeah, I always think about how crazy it
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is that like humans are so helpless when they're babies. But you're that is a good point. If
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they were really mobile and could run around but had the same mental capacity that they have,
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that would be bad news. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you said you're in New Jersey, right? New Hampshire.
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New Hampshire. Yeah, one of the news. You've been nowhere new. Yeah. Yeah, I don't really know a lot
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about New Jersey or New Hampshire. So tell us about New Hampshire. Like what's what's the area
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you're in? Either like just pick one. Yeah, I used to visit my grandparents on Long Beach Island
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in New Jersey every summer for like a month. And I had just a great, great time there on the Jersey
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Shore. So it was not not at all the the Jersey Shore of popular TV show. Yeah. Yeah.
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Yes. Yeah. Chuck's pumping is fast. That's right. T-shirt time. T-shirt time. I lost a bet once and
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I had to watch the first season. So there you go. So I have some New Jersey roots and some fond memories.
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But yeah, New Hampshire is a little bit chiller. And definitely there's a little more space.
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I think New Jersey might be like the most densely populated state. And New Hampshire's definitely not.
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There's a little elbow room. There are a lot of parks, a lot of state parks and such.
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I work at home. So you know, almost all all my clients are remote. So I actually don't need to
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travel too much. So but I'm only like an hour and 15 north of Boston. So I can get down to
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the big city or an airport very easily. So it's a nice balance. I really, really enjoy it here.
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And it's great to just be able to get out in nature every day. Like and walk my dog off lead
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and stuff. And you know, without really worrying about the crowding or issues like that. But I
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get it is it's a bit of a privilege to be working at home. I guess a lot more people have discovered
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that privilege over the last few years. But yeah, it used to be a lot more people commuting from
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here. Say down to Boston. And I never really wanted to do that on the on the daily. Yeah, options
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are nice. Forced commute isn't so much. But that's nice. I used to go to Boston all the time
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because I worked for a company there called Aquea. And so a few times a year go to Boston. And then
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I had teams. I used to be an engineering manager for them. So I had teams in Toronto too. So it's
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like Toronto, Boston all the time. Just not in the winter. What do you do in the winter?
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Well, we do like snorkeling and such and cross country skiing and just hiking and such. I kind
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of like the seasons grew up in the northeast. So I feel at home with the season. So I don't mind
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the cold. I just mind when winter starts to drag on a little bit if I can get away and march
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or something. Life is good. Do you have a snow blower? I share one with a neighbor. So just curious.
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Now we're getting really personal here. Yeah, I was going to say, what was that movie where it was
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like? Yeah, mother was a snow blower. I don't know. No, but that sounds like a fun movie.
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Yeah, I'll Google it. Figure out later. Post it on your Twitter. We talked to West Boss a little
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bit about tractors and he has a snow blower attachment on his and stuff. I'm just into that stuff
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because we moved out to the country. So we have 10 acres of land now and have to mow all the time
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and like it's way different than how life was before. Oh wow. Yeah, 10 acres. That's a serious
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commitment. I hope you you have some of it as as wooded radar. No, you don't have to mow all 10
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acres deal. Some of it is like big fields that I don't mow, but like a few times a year. But yeah,
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it all is does have to be mowed at one point. Okay, okay. So you've got some hay bales and such. Yeah,
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essentially. Yeah. What is it? Maybe I'm wrong. There was that movie Manchester by the sea. Really
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sad Casey Affleck movie. Was that and that's a New Hampshire, right? Manchester and I don't know.
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I mean, there is a Manchester New Hampshire, but Manchester by the sea is that I actually have not
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seen that movie. So I don't know. I mean, Casey Affleck is like a Boston guy also. That's a good
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question. I guess I could look it up, but have you seen it a little while ago? Yeah, it's good,
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but I didn't take it in from a geographical perspective. So and then just kind of triggered that
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and me like, Oh, yeah, there was that. And he's from that kind of area. I think that was New Hampshire.
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I could be wrong. I could totally be off and making it up. It's possible. I do that. Okay,
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so I mean, but it was America. Yeah, not not England. Yeah, no, that's the better Manchester though.
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I mean, I don't know if you noticed my hat, but the United one. Yeah. So I like that one.
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I've been there. I'm a fan. So related. I've been Caitlin and I watched the first two seasons of
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Ted Lasso. So I have watched a little bit of soccer related things now. Yeah, you're you're
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basically a fan. Yeah, we'll go to a DC United game when I'm back next time. I'm down. Nice.
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I think anything is better than going to like golf. Like that would just be too slow. Like
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as long as there's a little bit of action, I'm cool with it. Yeah, there's plenty of action.
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And they have a nice field that I've not been to. So I used to live in DC. And basically,
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they were building that stadium and it was like near I was living in the Navy art. So it was like
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not far from my house at all. And it opened that. So I think we moved, I don't know, in April and
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it opened when the season started in like August or something. I don't know. Yeah, it was like so
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close. So I've not been spice say I would like to go to Audi field. Chuck is looking for an excuse
446
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Robbie always excuses to get into things. Hey, come fix the internet in the office and we'll go.
447
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Perfect excuses to get into things excuses to get out of things. It's all an excuse.
448
00:48:42.620 --> 00:48:49.820
Yeah. So we all need. All right, we're about at time here. Was there anything we missed Dan
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that you would like to bring up? Anything you'd like to plug? Anything like that?
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I would say that although Jason API itself probably seems fairly dormant. We're actually on the
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verge of a pretty exciting new release of version 11 and it adds some new capabilities and
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adds a whole bunch of extensibility. So I'm excited to get that out. So basically it provides
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a negotiation mechanism for extensions and profiles. So ways to extend the spec or say how you're
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using the spec in a particular way. So in a more opinionated way. So there actually is news on
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that front finally after after working through it over over the years. So that's the thing I'm
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currently focused on most open source. I'm excited about that. And yeah, that's I'll leave it at
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that. Awesome. All right. Cool. Yeah, so check out Jason API if you haven't recently.
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New cool stuff coming. Thanks for being on Dan. Everyone that was listening. If you liked it,
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00:49:51.020 --> 00:49:53.820
please subscribe and we'll catch you guys next time.
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Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web in wet. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and
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produced by podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two
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and leave us a rating. Maybe a review as long as it's good. You can subscribe to future episodes on
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Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and the show,
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check out our website at shipshaped.io.
