The Human Algorithm and Danger to Civilization

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So, Dr.
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Flynn Coleman, great to have you here on When You
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Know You Know Unleashed. I want to take this time,
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I want to talk to you about Washington for a minute.
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You know, the polls, of course, tomorrow are opening, whether
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Americans appreciate it or not.
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The rest of the world is watching.
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Our allies are actually wondering whether America remains politically stable.
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Of course, while our adversaries, right, are undoubtedly looking for
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opportunities to exploit whatever divisions emerge.
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So let me ask you this.
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If Republicans lose the House, which they're expected to, does
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the world interpret that as Americans exercising a healthy Democratic
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check on presidential power? Or does it reinforce the perception
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that America has become so politically divided that it can
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no longer govern itself? And perhaps even more importantly, who
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benefits most from that perception?
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I'm really happy to be here, and thank you for
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that question.
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I've talked to a lot of people around the world,
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and I do think it cuts both ways. So on
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the one hand, the rest of the world is not
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waiting around. They're hedging against what they've seen the past
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several years in US democracy. So it's not like they're
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just waiting around to see what happens. That being said,
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we do need to watch carefully and Europeans, the rest
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of the world are watching to see if democracy still
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works here. And so I do think it's a very,
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very critical point. I think that our reputation in the
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world has suffered some pretty massive hits. And so unlike
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ever before, we are seeing less as a very, very
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close ally and more as.
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Someone to watch very, very carefully.
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That being said, yes, if the Democrats come out on top,
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which is expected, I do think there will be some hope,
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though I do think our reputation has taken a hit,
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and it doesn't just come back in a day.
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We're going to need to reprove ourselves.
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Though that being said, there's an elected leader, and then
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there's democracy holding. The other thing that we have to
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remember as Americans is that some other countries have been
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doing this a lot longer than we have. So in
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that sense, the perspective is very, very different. They've seen
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a lot of the highs and lows. We're kind of
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the teenager in the mix. whereas some of these other
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countries have been doing this a lot longer. So in
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that sense, there's this steadier sense of highs and lows.
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But yeah, they're watching very carefully.
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Whether you like it or not, we are one of
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the biggest players in the world, and everyone has to
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watch what we're doing.
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Well, in all fairness, we are the biggest player. We
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have the biggest GDP. Technologically, we are the most advanced. Militarily,
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we are the strongest. I've always maintained, if you have
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a strong America... you have a strong world. If you
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have a weak America, you have a weak world. Now,
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while America is still economically, militarily, technologically thriving, yes, our
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standing in the world has taken a massive, massive hit.
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Where do we go from here?
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It's a beautiful segue. And of course, I'm not surprised
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to hear you say that. And of course, as a
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proud American, I feel a lot of the same way.
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I'm going to say something a little bit controversial, perhaps
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a little bit radical here right now.
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Not too controversial for this show, Flynn.
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Let me be very clear.
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This show, When You Know You Know Unleashed, this is
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where you say what's on your mind.
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Okay, well, I'm going to say what's on my mind.
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And it might not be a take you here every day.
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But What I'd like to say is that when I
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say one of the strongest powers in the world, of
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course it goes without saying our military spends more than
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the next 20 militaries combined. We are massive. I'm a
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proud American. It's given me everything that I have in
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this world. I will say, though, that the changing to
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a multipolar world might actually be a benefit to us.
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If we can take our place within a community of nations,
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as opposed to always having to be on top, my
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suggestion is that actually might be really, really good for us.
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And there's a lot of things that might open up
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if we can stop having to prove that we are
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the only, we are the best, we are the greatest,
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and actually take our place and start to really solve
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some problems, not only in our own democracy, but around
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the world.
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That's a very interesting comment is right. You know, obviously,
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when you're number one, you'd never want to be pushed
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out to number two. You know, when they were talking
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about potentially China was trying to become, you know, become
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the currency as opposed to the greenback to the U.S.
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Dollar.
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That obviously creates a very significant problem for Americans as well.
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We enjoy being number one. That's why we spend so
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much money on what we do. I'm not so sure
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that America being number two, who would take over then
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as number two?
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China? Would it be certainly not Russia?
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It certainly wouldn't be the UK or France or Italy.
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Who would be, who's in the running to be number two?
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That's the real question.
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Well, I think that there are some different ways to
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frame it.
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So having spent time in many of the places you
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just mentioned, having studied their work there, live all over
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the world and talk to people, whether it's in government
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or just people, you know, friends, colleagues that do a
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lot of this work, fighting the human rights battles, working
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on diplomacy every day.
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I think there's another way to think about it.
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I think, of course, that becomes the question when you're
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only thinking in terms of number one and number two.
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But I do think geopolitically, we're moving into a different
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type of chessboard. We're looking at a multipolar world. And
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after World War II, of course, there was the superpower race,
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and the US won the Cold War. But we're in
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a different type of world now. And in terms of
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national security, we have to make sure, like you said, China, Russia,
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we have to be pushing back against authoritarian threats all
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over the world.
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That being said, a.
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Lot of the crises that we face, dare I say
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the most important crises that we face, from artificial intelligence,
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to climate, to nuclear, to war, to terrorism. I mean,
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that's a good example of how they're crossing borders now.
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We need to learn to work in community as collaborators.
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I have been an athlete my whole life, and team sports,
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I always say, has taught me everything I need to
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know about being a human being.
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All right, first of all, you've got to tell us,
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what was the sport?
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Soccer, so soccer is one of the things that took
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me all around the world since I was a little
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girl and it's actually a really good metaphor because the
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reason I was able to play soccer since I was
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five years old is because in the US for women
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to do that has always been completely normal.
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It's given me everything I ever wanted. On the other hand,
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soccer has taken me all around the world.
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It's a perfect metaphor for this and I've been able
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to have these conversations and being able to work as
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a team with other nations is incredibly important for all
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the threats we're facing. So if we don't think in
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terms of number one and number two, and not everything
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is a race to number one or number two, it's
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kind of like what we do in futurism and forecasting
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and scenario planning. If you're already set on something like
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one or two, you actually miss a lot of opportunities
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for building different futures that don't exist, which is why,
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for example, a lot of corporations and tech companies actually
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hire people like science fiction writers to help imagine a
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better world, because we need that moral and societal imagination
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to build.
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A better world.
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Well, obviously, you never saw the movie Ricky Bobby, right?
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What was the name of that movie with Will Ferrell?
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If you ain't first, you last, right?
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I do love Will Ferrell, so shout out to Will Ferrell.
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Well, there you go.
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So I do want to say to you, because everybody
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seems to think that obviously the Democrats are going to
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take the House and that Hakeem Jeffries is going to
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be the next speaker and turned loose with the gavel.
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Now- I'm not sure it's going to be that simple,
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because there's a pretty wide ideological canyon between, let's say,
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the Democratic establishment and its progressive wing. I, myself, happen
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to be a lifelong Democrat. Now, in my party, you've
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got moderates, you've got these Democratic socialists, and you have
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everyone in between, all, of course, supposedly rowing in the
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same direction. Now, that, of course, is bullshit. Everybody's rowing
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in different directions. How long before the boat starts to
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take on water, right? Is Jeffries really going to have
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the votes and the political muscle to control his own caucus?
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Or could Democrats find themselves dealing with the same internal
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dysfunction that they have spent the last God knows how
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many years criticizing Republicans for?
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I think this is cracking open one of the key
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issues in this election and in this cycle, which is
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a shift in these bipartisan policies and these very, very
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rigid political parties that haven't necessarily served us so well
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because we've had so many deadlocks. And the thing about
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the Democrats, of course, is that the idea, you had
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just said it, is the big tent.
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And that's supposed to be one of the big strengths, right?
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Everyone is welcome. Everyone is involved.
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But kind of like the US itself, and you see
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a lot of parallels, for example, which has happened in Brazil.
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I always try to remind people we are a big,
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unruly place that's kind of founded on this very anti-authority streak,
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and we're really hard to govern. And you can't, a
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lot of these examples, for example, building out a digital
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democracy in Taiwan, or Estonia, or Scandinavia, there's some beautiful examples,
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but you can't exactly make an analogy, because we're this
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big unruly place. I mean, New York City, where I'm
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right now, in and of itself, we are unruly. But
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I really get examples from the New York City Marathon yesterday,
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one of my favorite days in New York City, and
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the crowds are enormous. millions of people watching, 60,000 people running.
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And when the ambulances need to come through, when a
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runner's coming through, we move very peacefully as a crowd.
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So my point is to say that the Big Ten
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is important, but we have to move like a school
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of fish. And what you just said, you know, the
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influx of new forms of democracy and, you know, DSA,
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Justice Democrats, it's always this process of pushing the envelope.
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And what was establishment then just simply wasn't working. And
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so we have to make room for the new. And
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that can be very hard because just cognitively speaking, The
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hardest thing for the human mind to do is change course.
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There's a reason we don't like to change course. You
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literally need to build new neurons in your brain to
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change your mind. So that plus the ego and it's
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very hard. That being said, it could be the greatest
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strength to say this is who we are and we
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need to take ideas from all different sides of the party.
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But You know, old guard doesn't like new guard because
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it means changing your mind. That being said, it's happening
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in the Republican Party as well. And we need to
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be prepared for that. I mean, there was a time
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when the Democrats stood for something very different.
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Abraham Lincoln himself was a Republican, right?
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Things shift and all we have to do as humans
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is learn to ride that wave and try to open
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up our minds and shift with it.
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Unless, of course, we could find some way to influx
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into people's head acetylcholine and we'll try to get those
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neurons synapsing a little bit better. Because I believe that Americans,
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so many Americans, have become absolutely brain dead with this
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whole concept of noxious optimism. It's almost like, I mean,
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imagine when you were a kid. And your parents come
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to your soccer.
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Game, right? You're like, you're a little Dr. Flynn Coleman
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at that time, right?
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Where your shorts are too big, they're falling off you
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as you're running, right? You know, your folks buy you
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the shoes that's like one size too big because they
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know your feet are growing faster than a weed. And
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the next thing you know, you're losing. You're down to nothing.
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And there's like five minutes left in the game. And
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they're cheering you on saying, no, no, don't worry about it.
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You're winning.
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And you're like, wait, the scoreboard says 2-0. But that's
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the problem with this noxious optimism where you refuse to
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acknowledge the other side.
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You refuse to acknowledge reality. And all that you're.
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Really doing is ascribing to whatever your party's politics are.
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And that is and has become extremely dangerous in America because, again,
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when you're number one, our GDP, and I'm going to
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go right back to it, is two and a half
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times the size of China, the country that wants to
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take us down. We are two and a half times
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their size. We are the biggest consumers in the world.
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And again, militarily, technologically, we are the most advanced nation
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in the history of the earth. I cannot see why
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anybody would be fighting. Yes, there are things that we
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can fight about. I acknowledge that. There are always things
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to argue and fight about. But we have taken it
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to a different level where Let's say you have, instead
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of repainting your house, instead, I'm just going to burn
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the house down. That's become the new ideology.
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Very interesting in there.
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One thing I was laughing about is that my soccer
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coach always famously used to say that 2-0 is the
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most dangerous lead in soccer. So you're exactly right. You
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think it's in the bag. You start to get complacent.
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You see it all the time.
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In the games.
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I played rugby and our coaches used to say.
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The same thing. There you go, right? And it's a
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perfect analogy.
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You get a little complacent and then suddenly anyone with
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a little heart, soul, and a little teamwork can come
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back and score two goals and suddenly you're there. So
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I do think, again, thinking about this framework of number
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one and number two is a little bit you know,
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problematic for the world. That being said, when we're going
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up against authoritarian China, we absolutely have to win some
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of those races. You know, the future of the world
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is at stake, but I think we need to do
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it our way. One of the most powerful things about
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the United States is our innovation.
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Our creativity.
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People come here to feel that freedom that you can
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start a business, that you can start over.
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That you can do innovative things.
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And people take for granted that in a lot of
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other places that you don't necessarily have that freedom. So
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we have to protect that with our bare hands, but
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that means.
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People need a livable future.
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They need to spend less than 50% on their rent, right?
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They need to be able to buy things, go to
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the grocery store. We need to encourage people to be
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able to feel like they can afford to have families.
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So the thing is, it's great to talk about geopolitics
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and the abstract and this and that and the elections.
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But what we really need to talk about is all
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politics is local. The studies all show the same thing.
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When people feel secure and when they feel like they
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can put food on the table, they are creative. They
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are entrepreneurial. They light themselves on fire. All of these things,
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even something, for example, like cash handouts. The myth is that, oh,
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it makes people lazy.
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It doesn't.
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When you know you can feed your family and get gas,
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when you know you can vote and have a say
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in your future, you become entrepreneurial, you become creative because
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you're not so in survival mode.
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What the ego is, is survival mode. That's what war is.
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Okay, but Flynn, Flynn, when was the last time in
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America that people had that feeling that everything was affordable?
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Because this bullshit with the gas, all right, if it
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wasn't gas before the bullshit of gas, it was eggs.
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And before eggs, it was soft lumber. And before soft lumber,
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it was steel. And before steel, it was toilet paper.
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I mean, seriously, right? We have never felt because everybody wants, wants, wants.
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We are tremendous consumers. I get that. But, you know,
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there's also an obligation. And as humans, we should want
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to achieve on our own instead of having, you know,
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everything handed, you know, handed to us simply because we
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are Americans.
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Ah, well, I love this.
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I love that you segued again beautifully into this because
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I do think another radical take coming at you fast.
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Which is that it is another myth that anyone does
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anything alone. New York City Marathon yesterday is a perfect example.
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You are literally running 26.2 miles, right? And you have
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to train for that. And you should get all the
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glory that comes from hearing people cheer your name. But
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no one gets there without the support of their families,
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without the energy of people cheering them on. And yes,
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of course, if you make money, you want to start
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a business, that's great.
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You should keep a huge share of that. What about
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the roads that you drive on?
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What about all the infrastructure that's, yes, being built now,
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but that was built before that makes everything you do possible?
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Like it or not, we live in a collective global
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society now more than ever.
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Without a livable planet, none of these conversations matters.
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So yes, it's all about having that individual fire and creativity,
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but no one in this world does anything alone. You
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can't do it without stoplights, without potholes being fixed, right?
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You can't drive your car. It's very, very simple.
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And so I think that kind of seeing ourselves as
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part of that web of humanity and part of that
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community of nations.
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It actually makes us stronger. Any, any sports fan will
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agree with me here. I'm sorry. If you look at
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the right, no one does anything alone.
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We're picked up by our coaches, our friends, our family,
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even the fire of the opposing team picks us up.
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Even if you're, I used to run track, for example,
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none of that happens without training as a community, as
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a team. That's how we get pushed farther. So it's
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a myth that rugged individualism that is very, very ingrained.
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And it's a myth that has some power is also
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very dangerous to our thinking.
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We live in a collective society.
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Like it or not, and the government should be there
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to help us survive so that we can then build
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our own dreams on our own terms, but we simply
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can't do that alone.
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Well, then I'm going to allow this to be the
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segue into my next question to you, which is, again,
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assuming that the Democrats take the House, and I think
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it's a fair assumption historically, we both know that Washington,
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they're not going to spend the first morning congratulating itself and,
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you know, getting down to the business of governing. That's
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just nonsense. Subpoenas will start flying. Investigations are now going
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to begin. Impeachment will undoubtedly find its way back into
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the conversation. But, Flynn, here's what I want to know.
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What's the actual endgame? You keep talking about the marathon.
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I was there yesterday, too, cheering on people. I was
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actually helping Caroline Schinkel. I was walking around with her
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and handing out placards and meeting people on the street,
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trying to get them to vote for her.
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So you're right. It is a team sport.
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And everyone that I saw walk by me with the
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medal around their neck, I congratulate them. And you would
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see how they would smile, because many of them knew
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who I was.
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Some of them hate me. But the ones that like me,
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they're like, oh, my God, thank you so much. You're right.
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It is not. Nothing is individual anymore.
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But.
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Question that I really want to ask you, since, again,
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this is now becoming a team sport, Republican versus Democrat.
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Do the Democrats go after individual members of the administration, starting,
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as they have all said, with figures like Pete Hegseth,
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our Secretary of War? Or do they go after Trump's
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kids or other administration officials and their families? Or, again,
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is this ultimately about going after President Trump himself? And
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at what point does legitimate congressional oversight become political retaliation
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dressed up as constitutional responsibility?
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A very interesting question and obviously something that I can
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imagine is very personal to you. Yes.
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Right.
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And so we haven't been caught in the middle of that,
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of course, always very important to have that on the
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ground experience.
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As to what actually happens.
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Because again, to talk about this in the abstract, something
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we all do in law school, for example, I went
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to law school twice.
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You're also a lawyer. It's great to talk about it,
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but what is happening to people on the ground?
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So I think Going back to our theme of team sports, that,
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you know, the going after individuals.
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Wait, wait. Did you say you went to law school twice?
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I have two law degrees and a political science doctorate.
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I understood because I thought maybe after you finished one,
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you were bored.
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You decided to do it a second time because it's
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that much fun. Right.
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It is not fun yet. Full disclaimer. It is not fun.
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I love some types of school programs. I would say
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law school wasn't all that fun, but incredibly useful. No,
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I did once in the U.S. and one outside of
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the U.S. So having that global perspective is actually pretty fascinating.
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Right.
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And so I think in terms of what you said,
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you know, we tend to focus a lot. And again,
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it's how the human brain takes in stories on individuals.
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It's what we see on the news, like you said,
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Secretary of Defense, of course, our Commander-in-Chief.
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This is what we're seeing. But really, we need to
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think about systems. Because what can happen is we can
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have corruption in an individual, a very powerful individual, but
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at the same time, systems can still hold, right?
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We can have fraud. We can have corruption while the
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systems hold.
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So what I'm watching for, what every American should be
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watching for, what people outside the US are watching for,
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are do the systems hold? For example, it's one thing
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to have the vote happen. It's another thing to watch
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the next day.
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Well, what happens?
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Who certifies it? You know, do people, do people try
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to say it didn't, it didn't really go that way.
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That's actually what we need to watch because of course,
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going after corrupt individuals is incredibly important, especially when those
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people hold enormous amounts of power.
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That being said, there's an entire system that holds all
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of us up.
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So I would personally love to see accountability and justice
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and human rights come back to the forefront. And I
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would love to see people that are misusing the system
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and corruption to be held to account. That's what our
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justice system requires. But it also requires that we look
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at holding up entire systems, which is why, as you
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keep saying, the checks and balances are so important. Because
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things like an executive order actually, to me, another radical take,
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Say that the system is failing a little bit because
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checks and balances are there for a reason.
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No one branch has all the power.
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So when you're not going to get approval for a war,
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when you're using an executive order, it's telling me that
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there's a problem and that there's been a failure, right?
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And so when we're misusing that power instead of going
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to the other branches or the other people all around us,
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it's a problem because another thing about America's greatness is
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we are filled with brilliant people. innovative, passionate people. And
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so we need to require, and it's harder because the
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brain likes to talk about individuals, this systematic approach to
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working as a team.
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So yes, corrupt individuals, absolutely. We have to call people
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to account.
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I could add a lot of people to that list.
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Well, Dr.
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Coleman, sadly, we have a lot of stupid freaking people
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in this country too. So I'm standing there with Caroline
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Schinkel yesterday, and this guy turns around and you know,
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sees me after one of the aides turns around and says, Oh,
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would you like to say hello to Michael Cohen?
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So he turns around and goes, you're a traitor. So
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I said to him, do.
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You mind if I engage you in a conversation? I
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would have liked to engage him in the ass kicking,
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but instead I decided I was going to, I was
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going to appeal to his intellect. So I said, what
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makes me a traitor? And he goes, well, you flipped
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and you're back in Trump's camp. and I said, how
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am I back in Trump's camp? I'm still a lifelong
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registered Democrat. I still believe everything that I have consistently said.
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I have not changed my position. Where I agree with Trump,
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I will give him praise. Where I disagree, I will criticize.
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00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.930
Isn't that, as I said to him intellectual thinking? Isn't
489
00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:09.789
that intellectual honesty? Or am I a traitor because I'm
490
00:23:09.829 --> 00:23:14.170
not giving you that dopamine hit of hatred and rage
491
00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:18.769
and Trump derangement syndrome that you clearly need every single day?
492
00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:22.960
So I challenged him, name one position that I have
493
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:27.380
changed since you've been listening to me going back six,
494
00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:28.460
seven years now.
495
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.549
And you know what? This guy could not.
496
00:23:31.890 --> 00:23:34.730
And he looked at me and he said, well, I'm
497
00:23:34.869 --> 00:23:37.289
sure I could, but I can't do it now because
498
00:23:37.349 --> 00:23:39.990
I'm heading home. So I said, well, try not to
499
00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:43.190
trip and, you know, smash your teeth, you know, into
500
00:23:43.210 --> 00:23:46.539
the concrete as you walk in home. Because, you know,
501
00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:50.420
chewing gum, obviously, and walking may not be your strong suit.
502
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:52.079
And then the guy just left.
503
00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:56.180
But this is the intellectual dishonesty that we're dealing with
504
00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:56.680
these days.
505
00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:03.150
I will say that I think what happens in our
506
00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:06.589
discourse is that people's minds immediately shut off when they
507
00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:12.450
feel they're not being respected. And people require respect in
508
00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:16.309
order to open up and have civil discourse. So regardless
509
00:24:16.569 --> 00:24:19.950
of thoughts about individual intellect, I think we need to
510
00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:21.839
be thinking a little broader. Who has access to go
511
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:25.650
to school? How is education available in this country? If
512
00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:28.190
someone is afraid to lose a job that we think
513
00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:31.150
is outdated, how are we training them for a new job?
514
00:24:31.529 --> 00:24:33.750
People need to feel like people, and they need to
515
00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:37.750
feel dignified. And as Anthony Bourdain once said, most people
516
00:24:37.809 --> 00:24:40.190
just want to put on a clean shirt, go to work,
517
00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:41.130
and feed their family.
518
00:24:41.170 --> 00:24:42.599
And when they don't, they get afraid.
519
00:24:42.990 --> 00:24:45.799
So when you have this very brutal mix of survivors,
520
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.539
so ego, instinct, and then, of course, media, So speaking
521
00:24:49.579 --> 00:24:51.819
of algorithms, which is a bit of a specialty of mine,
522
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.720
algorithms and media also reward sensationalism.
523
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.599
They reward the grotesque and the extreme.
524
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.789
So when we're talking about extremism, we need to take
525
00:25:01.089 --> 00:25:04.130
these tech companies to account. That is what they're pushing
526
00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:06.180
on all of us. And so we feel like to
527
00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:07.400
be heard, we need to shout.
528
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:08.700
We need to be extreme.
529
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.519
That's how we get a podcast. That's how we get
530
00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:14.680
on social media. But that's not what most Americans actually
531
00:25:14.740 --> 00:25:18.420
agree on a lot of these hotbed issues. But media
532
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:21.809
and all of that exacerbates it because people make money
533
00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:23.509
when our eyeballs are on the screen.
534
00:25:23.869 --> 00:25:25.529
Yes, I say that all the time.
535
00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:25.950
Right?
536
00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:26.890
And so we normalize that.
537
00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:28.529
And that's how people make money. And like you said,
538
00:25:28.549 --> 00:25:32.700
we're the biggest consumers. But the trick... is that the
539
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.779
most people making money are a very, very small group
540
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.619
of people at the top. While the rest of us, right,
541
00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:40.500
most people are just trying to get through the day,
542
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.220
just trying to feed their families, maybe get an education.
543
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.180
So we actually, and the reason that we have this
544
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:50.180
kind of, you know, very, very frustrated electorate is because
545
00:25:50.220 --> 00:25:52.990
of that. You know, people want to feed their families.
546
00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:54.329
They want to go to school. They want to have
547
00:25:54.369 --> 00:25:56.930
a good job. That's what they want. And so this
548
00:25:56.970 --> 00:26:01.170
sensationalism that's driving this extremism it's not only dangerous for us.
549
00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:02.970
That's one thing, you know, for you and I to
550
00:26:03.009 --> 00:26:06.210
go on the internet and see this. However, it's another
551
00:26:06.230 --> 00:26:09.109
thing for a 12 year old whose brain isn't fully framed, right?
552
00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:11.769
Then that's an entire generation. And we become completely, as
553
00:26:11.789 --> 00:26:14.509
you said, brainwashed. So I don't know if stupid is
554
00:26:14.549 --> 00:26:15.009
the word.
555
00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:15.289
You know?
556
00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:18.630
No, no, it's no, it's no, trust me. It's the word. Yeah.
557
00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:21.779
You know, as, as my grandma, as my grandma used
558
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.259
to always say, you can't teach stupid, right? Because they'll
559
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:27.319
never that, you know, they were stupid when they were 12,
560
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:29.460
they're stupid when they're 21.
561
00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:32.000
It doesn't make a difference. But people are afraid.
562
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:32.579
They're afraid.
563
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:33.319
Well, good.
564
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.210
And they should be because sometimes fear pushes you into
565
00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:40.490
being better, right? But I do want to, because you
566
00:26:40.529 --> 00:26:43.369
bring me yet again into another great segue, and this
567
00:26:43.450 --> 00:26:45.569
is about you and your work.
568
00:26:46.750 --> 00:26:49.089
I believe it's your book, A Human Algorithm.
569
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.779
So a human algorithm, and I suggest everybody take a
570
00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.640
quick look at it. I started skimming through it. It
571
00:26:55.700 --> 00:27:01.859
gets into something that I think Washington consistently misunderstands. I mean,
572
00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:05.140
Washington misunderstands a lot, but this is one thing here.
573
00:27:05.549 --> 00:27:11.029
It's the growing disconnect between ordinary Americans and the institutions
574
00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:17.650
supposedly representing them. And, you know, I see that disconnect everywhere.
575
00:27:17.750 --> 00:27:21.829
Like my example on this idiot on the street. People,
576
00:27:22.210 --> 00:27:26.089
as you say, are exhausted by the political theater, the
577
00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:31.130
manufactured outrage, and the politicians who seem more interested in
578
00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:35.190
defeating the other side than actually accomplishing anything.
579
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:40.940
But here, here, Dr. Flynn, Coleman, is the contradiction. I'm
580
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:43.079
just going to call you Flynn. I like that name, Flynn.
581
00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:46.289
It's Thank you. Here's the contradiction.
582
00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:52.839
Americans say that they want stability, and yet they repeatedly
583
00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.819
gravitate towards candidates who promise disruption. So what exactly are
584
00:27:59.930 --> 00:28:04.259
voters rebelling against? Is it the political establishment itself? Or
585
00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:09.500
have Americans just simply lost faith that either party has
586
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:13.599
the ability or even the desire to solve the problems
587
00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.000
that are literally affecting our daily lives?
588
00:28:18.059 --> 00:28:21.140
That's a really important, interesting question. And the data does
589
00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:25.490
show that voters, as you said, are completely exhausted. However,
590
00:28:25.509 --> 00:28:28.720
that doesn't mean that they're apathetic. In fact, a lot
591
00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:31.119
of voters are very, very fired up. And what you
592
00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:33.470
said about stability and.
593
00:28:33.390 --> 00:28:34.769
Disruption is very interesting.
594
00:28:34.809 --> 00:28:37.009
And it goes back to me and my radical takes
595
00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:42.029
on switching the entire paradigm. Because I think the chaos, order, dichotomy,
596
00:28:42.130 --> 00:28:45.579
and frankly, many binaries in black and white thinking are
597
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.079
actually incredibly problematic because we lose.
598
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:49.400
The complexity and the nuance.
599
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:52.319
And again, going back to algorithms that love a lack
600
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.349
of nuance and they love a sensation as black and white, again,
601
00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:57.829
Another important thing that you'll probably agree with me on
602
00:28:57.869 --> 00:28:59.470
this is that we are beasts.
603
00:28:59.549 --> 00:29:02.650
We are animals. And it's very, very important to remember
604
00:29:02.690 --> 00:29:03.579
that we are animals.
605
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.059
Meaning, and a lot of people in behavioral science talk
606
00:29:06.099 --> 00:29:10.799
about this, we are based on instinct and very primal impulses, urges,
607
00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:11.319
and fears.
608
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.720
So that black and white, very tribalist thinking appeals to us.
609
00:29:14.819 --> 00:29:15.480
It's why we.
610
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:18.140
Love the gladiator arena and why we love sports. Our
611
00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:20.880
team wins, the other team loses. However, it can be very,
612
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.079
very problematic for what it means to be a human
613
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.160
being in society. And as I say in my book,
614
00:29:25.509 --> 00:29:27.390
we actually, most of our life is really in that
615
00:29:27.450 --> 00:29:30.400
gray area. You said it yourself. You said, hey, my
616
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.980
opinions are the same. It's the party switching all around me.
617
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.650
So this black and white thinking, this binary thinking, Republican, Democrat,
618
00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:39.970
deadlocked two-party system is very, very harsh on us. There
619
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.259
are plenty of other countries that have problems of their own,
620
00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:44.819
but they have a third party, for example, in the mix,
621
00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:47.619
and they have an ability to say, hey, I didn't
622
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.980
really like what this politician was doing, so I'm going
623
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.599
to switch it up and change things.
624
00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:54.650
Also, to get to stability... We.
625
00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:57.890
Need to have disruption of the current norms first. So
626
00:29:57.930 --> 00:30:00.099
it's not this black and white, oh, it's disruptive or
627
00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:03.240
revolution for all or stability. We actually sometimes need to
628
00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:05.180
reform or shake things up so we can get to
629
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:07.559
a new normal and a new status quo. And you've
630
00:30:07.579 --> 00:30:10.160
seen this with all the civil rights fights, for example,
631
00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:12.130
in the US, the fight for the women to get
632
00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:15.269
the vote. There's so many examples. And sometimes we need
633
00:30:15.309 --> 00:30:17.670
to shake things up. And sometimes we need to protect
634
00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:20.589
traditions we hold dear. And I think it goes back
635
00:30:20.609 --> 00:30:23.029
to something you said really important at the beginning of this,
636
00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:25.109
which is that we tend to think how our parents
637
00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:27.650
thought or how our party thinks. And that type of
638
00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:30.650
thinking can really block us because it takes a lot.
639
00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:32.789
And the reason it's hard to change our mind about this,
640
00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:34.710
and people don't think about it this way, but if
641
00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:36.769
you change your politics, you're a perfect example. If you
642
00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:40.349
change your mind, you have to go against the opinion
643
00:30:40.369 --> 00:30:43.750
of your family, your friends, your party, your colleagues. And
644
00:30:43.769 --> 00:30:46.170
it's really, really difficult to do this. But if America
645
00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:49.650
is anything, it's the land of free thinking where we
646
00:30:49.670 --> 00:30:51.410
can be who we want to be. We certainly don't
647
00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:54.039
always live up to that. But as an aspirational goal
648
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:56.059
to be able to use our human free will to
649
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.240
build a better world, James Baldwin said it himself, you know,
650
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:01.180
the only thing that builds a better world is a
651
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.000
small group of committed citizens.
652
00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:04.859
And we have that ability. Right.
653
00:31:04.900 --> 00:31:06.200
You know what Alec Baldwin said?
654
00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:11.759
Anyway, I want to finish.
655
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.400
By asking you one last sort of question here.
656
00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:14.789
Sure.
657
00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:18.529
I want to shift gears with it, where there's something
658
00:31:18.589 --> 00:31:25.950
that I see happening that I think Washington is dangerously
659
00:31:26.089 --> 00:31:30.630
unprepared for. And like one of the arguments I had
660
00:31:30.670 --> 00:31:35.660
with this moron yesterday in the street that felt compelled
661
00:31:35.980 --> 00:31:41.319
to come over and start to attack me Artificial intelligence. Now,
662
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.200
artificial intelligence, the way I see it, is advancing at
663
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:52.670
this break. I mean, just this breathtaking pace. Technology companies.
664
00:31:53.410 --> 00:31:58.109
are literally accumulating extraordinary amounts of influence. The data centers
665
00:31:58.190 --> 00:32:03.430
are transforming communities. Corporations are making decisions that will affect
666
00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:07.430
millions of Americans before Congress even gets a chance to
667
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.819
understand what the hell is happening. Now, you yourself have
668
00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:17.299
raised concerns about the collision between technology, corporate power, and
669
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:19.140
democratic accountability.
670
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:23.710
So here's my question to you. Who's actually in control here?
671
00:32:24.509 --> 00:32:30.390
Is Congress capable of establishing meaningful guardrails without strangling innovation?
672
00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:32.880
Or do you think that we are approaching a point
673
00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:39.420
where private technology companies are wielding more practical influence over
674
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:44.079
American life than the elected government itself? And if that's
675
00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:48.509
where that we're headed, what happens to democratic accountability?
676
00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:51.559
A great question, and of course, you walked right into
677
00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:54.519
my wheelhouse here, and you can imagine how strange it is.
678
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.960
Like I said, I read Human Algorithm.
679
00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.480
Right, you can imagine how strange it is that I
680
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.740
wrote this book almost a decade ago, and that I've
681
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.089
been talking about the intersection of AI, human rights, democracy,
682
00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:08.609
long before we had generative AI like ChachiBT. I would
683
00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:11.049
literally have people at my own book events say, AI
684
00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:13.049
is an engineering problem. This has nothing to do with
685
00:33:13.089 --> 00:33:14.130
human rights and democracy.
686
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:16.059
Now here we are, right?
687
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.299
And it's a complete flip and I'm going, I was
688
00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:20.920
saying this 10 years ago. So there is a deep
689
00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:24.069
intersection and part of it is exactly as I said
690
00:33:24.089 --> 00:33:25.730
in my book that, you know, it's a reason, I mean,
691
00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:31.210
I'm a political scientist myself talking economics, politics, technology, technocrats,
692
00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:34.250
you know, the oligarchy, it's all connected because for me,
693
00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:36.170
the reason I've been able to predict a lot of
694
00:33:36.210 --> 00:33:38.910
these things around AI and me and other people working
695
00:33:38.930 --> 00:33:41.009
in these realms of human rights and AI is it's
696
00:33:41.150 --> 00:33:45.529
all about power. Technology is a tool. We've had technology
697
00:33:45.609 --> 00:33:49.349
since the beginning of human history. Celestial navigation is technology.
698
00:33:49.490 --> 00:33:53.650
Fire is technology. Irrigation is technology. We have been developing
699
00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:56.990
alongside our tools. The difference is the speed and the
700
00:33:57.099 --> 00:34:00.200
scale and the amount, as you said, of power and influence.
701
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:03.000
At the beginning, when you had Facebook that was in
702
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:07.609
charge of 2 billion users, That means that is Zuckerberg
703
00:34:07.650 --> 00:34:09.630
in charge of democracy, whether he knows it or likes
704
00:34:09.690 --> 00:34:12.230
it or not, right? The communication channels are changing, which
705
00:34:12.269 --> 00:34:14.309
is why I talk about things like a universal basic
706
00:34:14.369 --> 00:34:17.829
income in my book, why I talk about politics and economics.
707
00:34:17.929 --> 00:34:22.030
It's all about levers of power because the innovation is great,
708
00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:25.949
but it's another myth that innovation only happens by private companies.
709
00:34:26.090 --> 00:34:29.360
A lot of our best innovations actually come from public
710
00:34:29.619 --> 00:34:33.750
private partnerships, things like GPS, There's all types of examples.
711
00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.949
The other thing about the advent of AI is that
712
00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:40.199
the speed and the scale is happening so fast that,
713
00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:43.239
like you said, people in politics, there was that infamous
714
00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:47.960
Senate in 2012 where the people in politics had no
715
00:34:48.139 --> 00:34:50.239
idea even how Facebook ads worked.
716
00:34:50.300 --> 00:34:52.380
And we were only at the beginning stages, right?
717
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:55.510
It's happening so fast and we have power concentrating in
718
00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:59.050
the hands of of such a small cadre of people
719
00:34:59.409 --> 00:35:01.380
that it is completely running away with us. But we
720
00:35:01.420 --> 00:35:04.480
do not lack for ideas. We lack for the funding,
721
00:35:04.619 --> 00:35:08.980
the ecosystem to support all. It's actually very anti-American and
722
00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:12.699
very anti-capitalist to say only certain people can be in
723
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.699
the technology game.
724
00:35:14.019 --> 00:35:15.280
We need more innovation.
725
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:17.329
We need more funding because a lot of people have
726
00:35:17.369 --> 00:35:20.269
brilliant ideas. So it is a deep, deep threat to democracy.
727
00:35:20.329 --> 00:35:23.489
We already saw it way back with Cambridge Analytica, for example,
728
00:35:23.769 --> 00:35:26.449
people not understanding. Because the thing about algorithms is they
729
00:35:26.510 --> 00:35:29.300
hide behind these black boxes. So when you're going, oh,
730
00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:32.780
that's so interesting. This ad showed me this pair of shoes.
731
00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:34.500
I think I want to buy that. You have to
732
00:35:34.539 --> 00:35:38.010
remember an algorithm convinced you to buy those. In some ways,
733
00:35:38.050 --> 00:35:40.530
they know us better than we know ourselves, right? What
734
00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:44.190
movies to watch, our financial transactions, who we see online.
735
00:35:44.489 --> 00:35:47.940
It's this incredibly insidious force, and it's actually taking away
736
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:51.059
our individuality. So this is something that is deeply important,
737
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.400
and it's not just software. Data centers, you will find
738
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.619
very interesting, are one of kind of these first bipartisan
739
00:35:57.739 --> 00:35:58.360
AI issues.
740
00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:00.769
Everyone wants data centers out of their backyard.
741
00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:03.989
It's not just software, it's actual infrastructure that's going to
742
00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:06.409
consume something like 12% of our energy grid by 2030.
743
00:36:06.389 --> 00:36:12.900
Yeah, it's, again, AI, it's so desperately needed, but it's
744
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:20.579
also so incredibly dangerous. My concern is the military aspect
745
00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:25.199
for AI, the part where China is continuing. So even
746
00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:29.039
if we throw up the guardrails at this point, China,
747
00:36:29.179 --> 00:36:35.460
of course, will continue. So will places like North Korea, Russia, Iran.
748
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:38.500
They will continue to do it. And God forbid that
749
00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:42.260
they get that tenth or that millisecond ahead of us,
750
00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:47.409
their AI can shut down our grids, can basically cripple
751
00:36:47.570 --> 00:36:53.820
our entire economy. technological infrastructure without having the ability to
752
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.840
fight back because then they will always be that millisecond
753
00:36:57.980 --> 00:37:01.579
ahead of us. So it's not even though if government
754
00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:06.199
wants to turn around and say to Silicon Valley, okay,
755
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:08.679
that's it, we're slamming on the guardrails.
756
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.420
No, you're not.
757
00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:14.019
You may slam on the guardrails for one of the
758
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.400
companies here in America, but you have no effect upon
759
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:18.960
what's going to go on worldwide.
760
00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:22.150
Well, I'm coming in hot with another radical take because
761
00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:23.980
there's another way to think about this. So when we
762
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.480
think of everything as an arms race, we get very,
763
00:37:26.659 --> 00:37:29.119
which is why war, which happens to be my specialty
764
00:37:29.179 --> 00:37:31.369
at the intersection of war and AI as well, war
765
00:37:31.409 --> 00:37:33.130
crimes and things like that. So when we think with
766
00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:37.039
that war like mentality. literally for survival mechanism, we get
767
00:37:37.099 --> 00:37:39.429
very myopic in our thinking, right? And we get very
768
00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:41.829
fear and survival based in our thinking. So what I
769
00:37:41.849 --> 00:37:44.610
want to say about that is yes, of course. So ironically,
770
00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:48.789
somewhere like China with an authoritarian system can mobilize everything really,
771
00:37:48.829 --> 00:37:51.449
really fast because you don't need the will of the people.
772
00:37:51.769 --> 00:37:54.070
which is the very, very foundation of our democracy, right?
773
00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:55.769
So they can also do things like, oh, you want
774
00:37:55.789 --> 00:37:56.909
to end pollution in Beijing?
775
00:37:57.050 --> 00:37:59.070
No problem. So it's this very interesting thing.
776
00:37:59.449 --> 00:38:02.460
However, we also have to be thinking about if we
777
00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:05.559
want to be ahead in that arms race for AI,
778
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.559
here's what we need. We need the best scientists in
779
00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:11.260
the world on our side. We need the best innovators,
780
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:14.570
which means immigration, which means we need people coming to
781
00:38:14.610 --> 00:38:17.030
our schools and staying to work. And we need the
782
00:38:17.070 --> 00:38:21.469
best scientists, which ironically requires that teamwork that I was
783
00:38:21.550 --> 00:38:24.150
talking about. We need scientists from all over the world
784
00:38:24.210 --> 00:38:25.889
to come to us and say, we want to be here.
785
00:38:26.150 --> 00:38:27.630
We want to innovate here. We want to work at
786
00:38:27.650 --> 00:38:30.610
your companies. So again, it's not so binary as you think.
787
00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:33.139
We actually have to open up our thinking and work
788
00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.219
with people that we might not have thought because also
789
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:37.179
a government is different from its people.
790
00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:39.719
A government is not its scientists. And if we want
791
00:38:39.739 --> 00:38:40.280
to be the.
792
00:38:40.219 --> 00:38:42.849
Best- Well, in all fairness, I'm going to give you
793
00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:45.949
a little pushback on that one because the way I
794
00:38:46.010 --> 00:38:50.719
see it these days, AI is actually teaching AI. It's
795
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.719
almost now out of the hands of people like you
796
00:38:54.940 --> 00:38:57.760
or I. It's out of the hands of the scientists.
797
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.219
AI is actually doing it on its own. That, to me,
798
00:39:02.570 --> 00:39:06.010
is the scarier part. That, to me, is reminiscent of
799
00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:07.369
the movie iRobot.
800
00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:11.050
Well, it's actually always been that way. So there's a
801
00:39:11.070 --> 00:39:12.059
couple things to distinguish.
802
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:13.840
So an algorithm in and of itself is just a
803
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:16.619
recipe that tells a computer what to do. Since Alan
804
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:19.659
Turing's time, World War, we've been talking about these issues.
805
00:39:19.699 --> 00:39:21.699
We just didn't have the actual tools to do it.
806
00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:25.929
AI by design, in theory, is smarter than even its
807
00:39:25.969 --> 00:39:28.610
developers are or could ever be. So there's always been
808
00:39:28.650 --> 00:39:31.699
this issue of, oh, well, I trained AI, trained it
809
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:34.179
to do something, and it's going beyond what I thought
810
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.219
it would do. That's kind of the idea of training
811
00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:39.449
something that's intelligent. And that's why it's so existential for us.
812
00:39:39.530 --> 00:39:41.769
Because humans, we love to be, speaking of food chains,
813
00:39:41.809 --> 00:39:43.309
we love to be at the top of the food chain.
814
00:39:43.809 --> 00:39:46.519
That being said, it's still an issue of power. If
815
00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:50.219
you have someone, it's just like leadership and politics. Nothing
816
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.199
is perfect, but if you have people you trust building
817
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.780
these tools and a whole big table of lived experiences,
818
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.989
checks and balances, ethical guardrails while we wait for better ideas,
819
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.929
then you're going to trust that this technology is going
820
00:40:03.949 --> 00:40:06.769
to be working for us. It's just like the internet. People,
821
00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:09.889
you know, internet didn't have to be like this. AI
822
00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.449
can be something different. It's all about the people and
823
00:40:12.489 --> 00:40:15.480
the tools behind it. That's why it's all about power
824
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:18.550
and it all goes back to leadership. Because we can
825
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.389
build these things better. That being said, back to guardrails,
826
00:40:22.670 --> 00:40:25.429
until we do. So CRISPR is a famous example of
827
00:40:25.469 --> 00:40:28.389
Jennifer Doudna, who invented CRISPR, which is going to be
828
00:40:28.429 --> 00:40:31.690
kind of the biggest world changing biotechnology. She herself said,
829
00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:35.110
until we figure this out, I want ethical guardrails. Laws,
830
00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:37.869
as you know best, laws and ethical guardrails are not perfect.
831
00:40:38.269 --> 00:40:40.949
But there are ways to slow things down enough for
832
00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:43.989
us to get everything together to have a better solution.
833
00:40:44.289 --> 00:40:44.989
The thing about.
834
00:40:44.869 --> 00:40:47.309
Politics and all this stuff is, you know, just because
835
00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:49.230
don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
836
00:40:49.590 --> 00:40:51.650
We need to make sure that we are protecting people
837
00:40:51.989 --> 00:40:53.449
while we figure this stuff out.
838
00:40:54.170 --> 00:40:55.409
Well, Dr.
839
00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:59.219
Flynn Coleman, thank you so much. Appreciate you. Where can
840
00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:01.480
people get your book? Where can people do a little
841
00:41:01.539 --> 00:41:05.880
more digging on who you are and what you're representing
842
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:06.360
these days?
843
00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:09.380
Speaking of algorithms and the internet, yes, my book is
844
00:41:09.389 --> 00:41:13.480
The Human Algorithm. You can find me online, socials, my name,
845
00:41:13.539 --> 00:41:16.059
Flynn Coleman, my website. It's all there for you. I
846
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159
look forward to hearing from you. And it was great
847
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:19.539
to be on and have this discussion.
848
00:41:20.019 --> 00:41:22.190
With that, I thank you so much for joining us
849
00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:23.909
on When You Know You Know Unleashed.
850
00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:26.449
Let's see whose predictions come right.