Naming the Unknown: Forensic Genetic Genealogist Christine Burke on DNA & Identity

WEBVTT
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Welcome to What She Does, the podcast that takes
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you inside the working lives of everyday women
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shaping the world around us. I'm Leanne Starr.
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And I'm Annie Sendinger. And each week we sit
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down with someone who shows us not just what
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she does, but how and why she does it. Plus,
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find out if you fit the same mold to grab the
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same type of gig. Let's discover... What she
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does, starting now. When Christine Burke joined
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the police academy, her nickname was Dainty Christie.
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She went on to become the first female sergeant
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in her department. But the investigation that
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changed her life started in 2017 with a DNA test.
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It showed that she wasn't who she thought she
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was, and neither was her mother. Today, Christine
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is a forensic genetic genealogist. She uses DNA
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and family trees to help identify unknown remains
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and suspects. More than 15 ,000 unidentified
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remains cases are open in the national database,
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and experts estimate the true number could be
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as high as 40 ,000. We talk about her going undercover
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in a high school, why she left the force instead
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of following an order she couldn't live with,
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why she thinks police shouldn't be outsourcing
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this work, and what it takes to break into a
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field that's changing fast. Today we have Christine
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Burke, who is a forensic genetic genealogist
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and has a fascinating background. Hello, Christine.
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Hello, hello. Thanks for having me here. Oh,
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we are so happy to have you here. You started
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as a cop. It was like 21 Jump Street, which I
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think is great. Maybe you can tell us a little
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bit about how you started. I started very young,
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especially in my police career, which is kind
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of non -traditional. And I couldn't even buy
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my first weapon to carry on the street. That's
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how young I was. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Well,
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this was back in what I call the dinosaur days.
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And I couldn't even go into the bars because
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I wasn't old enough to go in and investigate.
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So here I am in full uniform. but I couldn't
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go in. And yeah, plenty of stories, plenty of
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stories. You were like undercover police, right?
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Yeah. So I worked in road patrol. I started out
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as a reserve officer. And that's a whole story
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about how I got into it. Basically, I was working
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another profession and I don't know. I shouldn't
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even say this. I shouldn't even say this on a
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podcast. And there was a really, really cute
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officer who I liked. And I got invited on a ride
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along. And one thing turned into another. And
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I became a reserve officer, unpaid, volunteering,
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having fun. And then I wanted to continue to
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do it. And they said, you know, the laws and
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the way it works, you're gonna have to go to
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the academy. And I said, okay, I'll go to the
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academy, but I'm not driving that car by myself
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and the shotgun. My nickname used to be Dainty
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Christie, right? So I said, I can't do that,
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but I wanted to have fun. And I went to the academy
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and then it was in the academy when I was like,
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I think I can do this. And that's what happened.
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So I started out, I went into road patrol. in
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uniform patrolling. And then I got promoted to
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detective. I became a detective working all kinds
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of crimes. And then I actually became the first
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female sergeant of my police department. So I
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loved that, yeah. During that, I worked undercover.
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I arrested a former US attorney's wife for counterfeit
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items. I did drug interdiction. I worked like
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a 21 jump street. I actually went back to high
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school, which was very hard because I was an
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AP student and I went back to high school for
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several months and I got invited to prom, go
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figure, and did the jump street. It was a lot
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of fun. You got invited to prom when you were
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undercover? Yeah. It was horrible. That was horrible.
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That assignment was horrible. That poor guy.
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Well, I didn't, I didn't go, but I couldn't go.
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You can't go. Like, so I'm pretending to be this
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person. I was in AP classes. All right. And so
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now I'm in the school and they put me in, you
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know, the base classes. So I'm sitting there,
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mind numbing. Like this is, I mean, I got a good
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grasp of the public school system, but it was
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very hard. It was very difficult. At one point
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I had. legitimate fake ID and all this stuff.
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And they arranged the different housing. It was
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in a different jurisdiction. And at one point,
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so I had a senior detective from another agency
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that was supposedly my brother, right? My cover
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story. And the school district actually had done
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some investigation. They made up a fake house
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number, and they had done some investigation,
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and I got called into the office, right? And
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I'm supposed to be this kid, and they're telling
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me. So I'm calling my brother, like... I'm in
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the principal's office and they're saying our
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house is in our house. And so they had to take
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care of that because nobody in the school, they
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didn't want anybody knowing, right? And so that
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sort of thing. And then I would get in trouble
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because I was skipping school or getting caught
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trying to go off campus. And in one sense, it
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was kind of cool because I got to talk back like,
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you know. the heck with you blah blah blah and
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you know I got to because I was the good girl
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and I was the good girl when I went to school
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and like trying to got to be the bad girl. Can
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you talk at all about what type of case you were
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on in that in that situation? I was in there
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to get narcotics I was in there to get narcotics
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we actually had a group of um I won I had the
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most I had the biggest bust we had a group of
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of police officers just like this show and And
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it was funny when we finally had the reveal on
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the day of all the arrests, all those officials
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that I had, you know, that had called me and
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had done all this stuff. You know, I walk in
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with my badge on my chest and they're like, it
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was like. That's amazing. It's great. It's great.
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So were the kids arrested or were you going for
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a bigger fish? No, the kids are arrested. Was
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that hard? I think you probably became friends
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with some of these. No, I mean, this sounds horrible.
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It wasn't hard because it was my job. Like I'm
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thinking about it, as a cop, you have you and
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then you have the cop. And they talk about just
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like, nobody can breach your peace. So you'll
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go out to a scene you'll go out to a protest
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or this or that and you may believe one side
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one way or the other or whatever or you may have
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had something happen to you like you're more
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Emotionally connected to this or that or whatever
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it is and and you you can't have that so you're
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there to do You're there to do a job. So while
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you might and they do have problems I was not
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in there that long and again, I'm much older
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than these these kids, right? It was mind -numbing
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being in these classes. It was horrible. Okay,
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I need to know. Did you have to arrest the kid
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who asked you prom? No, no. That one just had
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a crush on me, apparently, or whatever. You're
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taking us all the way through to the genealogist.
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Yeah, so so I did that in the police work I got
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promoted and then of course being promoted being
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in charge of everybody wasn't fun what wasn't
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as fun as being on the road and There was some
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internal Situation I was basically told to run
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the women out of the police department and I
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said I'm not gonna do that You mentioned that
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you were the first female police sergeant and
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They were trying to force you to get rid of the
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women. As a female in a male -dominated field,
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how do you navigate that? One, the situation
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of being asked to do something that honestly
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is heinous. And then what does that feel like
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to then be promoted within that environment?
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I think about this as I'm older. After I left
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the police department, this might sound so, I
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don't know, snarky or braggadocious or whatever,
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but I didn't realize that I was different than
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most of the cops there. That I did so many things
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in such a short time and I did not do it on the
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casting couch, if you understand what I'm saying.
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I'm very task -based, I'm very goal -oriented
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and it was fun. I probably now would not have
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signed up for the job if I really understood
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what I was doing. Before I got into police work,
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I was a paralegal. And the cases were interesting
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and the officer would come in and get interviewed.
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I'm like, oh my God, it's so cool. It's like
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TV. Like, this is so cool. And as I mentioned,
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I started riding along. It was fun. I was part
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of the guys, right? I grew up as the only child.
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I was part of the guys. I was part of the gang.
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I call it, that was my gang. And I don't mean
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it in derogatory words, although some people
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can consider it like the police, like a gang,
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but I'm just talking about that was my tribe.
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And I was accepted and it was fun. And I got
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to use my brain and do what I wanted to do. And
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I'm so grateful for that. And so that's where
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becoming a detective was so important to me.
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I created all those opportunities for the undercover
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things. I want to do this. I want to do that.
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Let me... come up with this, that was me and
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seeking those opportunities. So in the police
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department, you test to get on the list, you
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should. So if you ever want to be sergeant, you
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have to get on the list, at least in my department.
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And so I thought, okay, I'm going to do it. And
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when you're offered the opportunity, You don't
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turn it down because it's unionized. It's right.
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There's there's only so many opportunities and
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unfortunately, we had lost an officer you'd lost
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a captain and so that created the opportunity
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and so I took it and until you're in the possession
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you don't understand and and it's different from
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When you're a patrol officer and a detective,
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for the most part, you're doing self -initiated
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activity. As a patrol officer, you're responding
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to calls, but you know, you're pulling people
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over for tickets. You're kind of in charge of
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your own thing. Well, as a supervisor, you have
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people above you and they're going to dictate
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the lieutenants telling you, go do this, go do
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this, go do this. And the support just wasn't...
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there and I was being told to do things that
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I didn't like doing and I ultimately left because
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of it. And people don't understand in a police
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department, you have the operating orders, the
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chain of command, like in the military, you have
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to obey a direct order or you can face discipline
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up to including being fired. You also have things
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that you could do that violate someone's civil
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rights and you could get sued and go to jail
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or whatever, right? But most people focus because
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of the discipline like in the military is obeying
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the direct order. They don't focus on what happens
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to me as a person. It's more what happens to
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me in my job. I don't want to get in trouble
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in my job. I don't want my supervisor on my rear
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end. I don't want to get written up. I don't
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want a citizen complaint. I just want to come
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and do my job, make my money, bank my comp time
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and go home, right? And maybe have a little fun.
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So when you get in this position that your supervisor's
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telling you to do these things, you have a decision
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to make. And so my decision was this isn't fun
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anymore and I can't do it, but that's sometimes
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a very hard decision to make. I don't know if
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that answers the question, but I just I just
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I wasn't gonna do it and and that's where I'm
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a little Sometimes people don't like me. I'm
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very outspoken I say what I want like like in
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this situation today about the genetic genealogy
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I a hundred percent don't believe in the way
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that they're doing it period But that's my opinion
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and I have to be able to stand up to it. And
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so going back to the male -dominated System,
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did I face that? Yes, I did Did I understand
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at the time why I got the crap that I did? No,
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at the time I didn't. But once I left and I was
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able to look back and I said, okay, I see, not
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only was I a female, but I didn't do things like
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the majority of the folks. Probably people thought
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I got what I got because I did this, that, or
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the other, like who knows? But I'm very proud
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of my record. I will always defend my record.
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Even today in my work, my clients are so proud
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of me because I will stand up for things and
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I will stand up to them. And that's just something
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in me. I don't want to say people don't have
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it because I think they have it. It's just the
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situation that you're in, whether you're going
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to choose you or the situation. And so I popped
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out for a while, went into corporate, started
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my own business. currently have my own private
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investigation agency business. I've had it since
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2008. And in 2017, a DNA test that I had taken
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revealed that I was not who I thought I was and
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neither was my mom. I'm what's known as an NPE
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or not parent expected. So my dad, who I didn't
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know, Burke, I didn't know him at all, was not
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my dad. And my mom's dad, was not her dad. So
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who I had thought was my maternal grandfather
00:15:42.100 --> 00:15:48.179
was not. And it really set me back. My mom at
00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:51.330
the same time had dementia. And so I was taking
00:15:51.330 --> 00:15:54.049
care of her. She's since passed. So my whole
00:15:54.049 --> 00:15:56.169
world blew up. I thought I knew who I was. I
00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:58.870
was pretty confident in my identity and my abilities.
00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:01.730
But when I couldn't figure out who I was, it
00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.450
was very difficult. And I paid the experts, and
00:16:05.450 --> 00:16:07.470
they just told me to wait for a better match.
00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:11.409
And I said, I can't do that. I have to. I had
00:16:11.409 --> 00:16:13.649
family and friends say, you got to stop this.
00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:16.549
And I said, I can't stop it. I have to know.
00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:21.850
And after a couple years, I figured it out. And
00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:25.629
then I launched my business, one of them, Genetic
00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:28.490
Genealogy for Law Enforcement, helping the police
00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:32.480
learn how to do this and solving cases. using
00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:37.029
the forensic genetic genealogy. It's like a page
00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:42.049
-turner or, you know, a thriller. But did you
00:16:42.049 --> 00:16:45.990
find your dad? Like, what happened? Yeah, so
00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:50.690
I'm actually a von Ritter, and I've definitely
00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:54.450
identified my paternal grandfather. Everybody's
00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:58.909
deceased. And so I have... to one candidate that
00:16:58.909 --> 00:17:01.309
I feel very strongly, but as I mentioned, everybody's
00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:04.950
passed, and that family unfortunately will not
00:17:04.950 --> 00:17:09.599
cooperate with me, which is pretty common in
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:12.680
these type of situations when folks get these.
00:17:13.220 --> 00:17:15.700
The people that have the big families are okay,
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.819
but the strays, as I call them, when the strays
00:17:18.819 --> 00:17:23.440
try to come in, many times it can be unsettling,
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:27.279
and I understand. Just as I thought I knew my
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.380
identity and my whole family, which turned out
00:17:29.380 --> 00:17:33.000
not to be. You know, now we have these new people.
00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:36.779
So I have a good candidate. I definitely know
00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:38.759
what my last name is. I know what all my relatives
00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.180
are, but unfortunately, I don't know exactly
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.519
who it is and I didn't get to experience that.
00:17:45.859 --> 00:17:48.900
So that's a little disappointment there. But
00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:56.190
it did change my story because of the way I grew
00:17:56.190 --> 00:18:00.230
up. My mom was not the best. And now I understand
00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:03.869
she was an alcoholic. It was a very sad story.
00:18:05.170 --> 00:18:10.009
But I understand it now because of what she grew
00:18:10.009 --> 00:18:13.450
up and her not knowing who her father is and
00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:16.269
her relationship with who we thought her father
00:18:16.269 --> 00:18:19.150
was. Everything is explained now, if that makes
00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:20.769
sense. I don't want to get into too much detail,
00:18:20.930 --> 00:18:23.470
right? But everything makes sense now and now
00:18:23.470 --> 00:18:28.410
I understand. And so I'm at peace with it. And
00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:32.170
you turned it into a business. Yeah. Yes. It
00:18:32.170 --> 00:18:35.730
continued what I originally started back in the
00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:39.869
beginning. Wow. I'm just sort of flabbergasted.
00:18:40.970 --> 00:18:42.650
Enjoying the crowd, right? That's what I thought.
00:18:42.809 --> 00:18:46.269
I was like, what upset my apple cart? I was just
00:18:46.269 --> 00:18:48.329
enjoying my life and then all of this happened.
00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:53.119
But I at least... I can't solve all the cases
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.660
and do everything that I want to do, but at least
00:18:55.660 --> 00:18:58.579
it gave me peace and it resolved that relationship
00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:02.119
with my mom. And I'm able to give peace to others.
00:19:02.539 --> 00:19:05.440
And again, going back to that serving capacity
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.720
that I originally started in. So everything happens
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.250
for a reason. You just don't know it at the time.
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.920
There's a lot, a lot to unpack here. So it's
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.279
not just doing trend three and me, like you are
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.619
taking this and what do you tell law professionals
00:19:22.619 --> 00:19:27.160
to help them sort of break this down and what
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:31.049
they need to know. So I'm an expert witness for
00:19:31.049 --> 00:19:34.109
the police or against the police. I testify in
00:19:34.109 --> 00:19:38.130
court and I can do it in genetic genealogy. And
00:19:38.130 --> 00:19:41.490
so basically it's either making the determination
00:19:41.490 --> 00:19:44.309
of in the case of an unidentified human remains
00:19:44.309 --> 00:19:47.500
person that's found. which I will say most folks
00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:51.880
don't know we've got over 15 ,500 unidentified
00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.900
human remains cases in the United States. Yes,
00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:58.579
we do. I had no idea. I mean, I knew we had missing
00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:02.140
people and unknown human remains, but before
00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:04.079
I started working with the police, I had no idea
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:10.559
how bad it was. And so we do that. And then finding
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:13.720
suspects. Okay, so making an identification,
00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:17.359
pointing them in the right direction. And on
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.940
the defense side, making sure that it's right,
00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:22.660
making sure they did it right ethically and everybody
00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:25.339
gets their constitutional rights. Ultimately,
00:20:25.339 --> 00:20:28.559
it's about making the right ID, right? I say
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:30.640
it's not about one side or the other, it's about
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.779
doing things right and getting the answers that
00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:36.579
everybody needs. And I think, I'm assuming having
00:20:36.579 --> 00:20:39.940
been a police person in the past yourself. that
00:20:39.940 --> 00:20:43.930
gives you sort of an insight and an edge. Absolutely,
00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:46.349
because another thing the public doesn't realize
00:20:46.349 --> 00:20:49.390
is that, which we've seen in a lot of recent
00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:53.109
high -profile cases, everybody thinks that the
00:20:53.109 --> 00:20:55.430
feds or the police are doing a lot of this work
00:20:55.430 --> 00:20:57.849
and they're not. It's really being outsourced,
00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:02.549
which brings a whole valley of challenges. to
00:21:02.549 --> 00:21:05.869
the court system about who's actually doing the
00:21:05.869 --> 00:21:08.410
work. And of course, me, I'm a little biased
00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:11.170
to the police. And the police have different
00:21:11.170 --> 00:21:13.630
procedures. They're used to working under the
00:21:13.630 --> 00:21:18.309
constitutional, I have to say, you know, provisions
00:21:18.309 --> 00:21:22.289
there. But right, you know, they understand the
00:21:22.289 --> 00:21:25.049
process. They understand the goal. Whereas, the
00:21:25.049 --> 00:21:27.750
folks who are gratefully doing this and voluntarily
00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:30.130
doing this in these businesses that have started
00:21:30.130 --> 00:21:32.549
doing this, they're not used to working under
00:21:32.549 --> 00:21:35.509
the structure and testifying in court and doing
00:21:35.509 --> 00:21:39.609
all these investigative parameters and constitutional
00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:41.589
protections and things like that. So right now
00:21:41.589 --> 00:21:44.970
it's kind of the Wild West in the genetic genealogy.
00:21:45.009 --> 00:21:48.150
We've had some bad things happen and I'm of course
00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:50.529
against that. I'm all about the Constitution
00:21:50.529 --> 00:21:53.759
and Getting to the right person the right way
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.920
and for the right reasons. Yeah, so it's not
00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:01.369
just like getting 23 and me and Well, the testing
00:22:01.369 --> 00:22:04.730
is there, right? So if we take 23andMe as an
00:22:04.730 --> 00:22:06.950
example, it's whole genome sequencing, right?
00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:08.970
So it outputs the whole blueprint of the person.
00:22:09.329 --> 00:22:12.809
Prior to getting to that, we have CODIS, which
00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:15.549
is they just test a short portion of your DNA.
00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:18.630
So with whole genome sequencing, it is basically
00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:21.470
the blueprint for your person, the entire person,
00:22:21.809 --> 00:22:24.349
like the blueprint of your house. And so when
00:22:24.349 --> 00:22:27.609
they take that, whether it's 23andMe identifying
00:22:27.609 --> 00:22:32.700
your relatives, or ancestry or whomever, it gets
00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:35.640
output and then we use the law enforcement approved
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:40.279
databases to build the relatives. What I call
00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.819
it is in law enforcement, we have a neighborhood
00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:47.240
campus. A crime occurs, the cops go around, they
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:49.559
ask people, did you see anything? Look at surveillance
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:51.880
camera, anything that will point them towards
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.980
a suspect or an unidentified deceased person,
00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:57.180
right? What did you see? What do you know? What
00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:59.960
evidence do we have? The DNA is kind of the same
00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:02.480
thing. So in this case, the relatives that show
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.920
up in the database point the officers or me or
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.859
whomever in the right direction to who the person
00:23:08.859 --> 00:23:13.240
is. So it's the same thing. It's just in a different
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:16.319
format. It's, you know, everybody go and go over
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.380
here that this is the family that you need to
00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:23.839
look at. You said it was outsourced. What I think
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:30.940
of is CSI. Yes. Is it anything like... CSI, the
00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:35.019
television show, is your role that you play now
00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:39.680
part of a team like that, or is it you're an
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.019
outsourced person that comes in and helps that
00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:47.640
team? Well, I think it should be, right? And
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:52.980
I'm walking a fine line here because I'm the
00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:55.940
contractor in this situation, right, which I'm
00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:58.980
theoretically against, but I have the law enforcement
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.329
background. not that that, you know, that I think
00:24:01.329 --> 00:24:03.529
that makes it a little better. But my goal is
00:24:03.529 --> 00:24:06.289
to train the agencies to do this in -house because
00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:09.150
I believe it needs to be protected and done under
00:24:09.150 --> 00:24:11.490
a law enforcement function. Right now, they just
00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:14.289
send it out to a commercial for -profit lab.
00:24:16.829 --> 00:24:20.609
So it's not in the crime lab at all in the majority
00:24:20.609 --> 00:24:23.069
of the jurisdictions. We have started to see
00:24:23.069 --> 00:24:26.970
some of the agencies bring the stuff online.
00:24:27.289 --> 00:24:32.250
But no, they just send it out and That's my problem
00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:36.309
with it. Like what what? Please to me doing this.
00:24:36.609 --> 00:24:39.450
That's what I say sometimes like would you out
00:24:39.450 --> 00:24:42.269
outsource the canine team or the SWAT team? No,
00:24:42.269 --> 00:24:44.289
you would not. Would you outsource the homicide
00:24:44.289 --> 00:24:46.829
team? No, you would not. This is no different.
00:24:47.150 --> 00:24:52.029
This is no different. And so the thing that I
00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:55.750
also heard in all this is about finding deceased
00:24:55.750 --> 00:25:02.460
people. Yes. Yes. Maybe you have a different
00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:08.579
spin on it. So when it comes to the unidentified
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:14.609
humans, it is depressing because there's so many.
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.579
And I wish we could support the infrastructure.
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:19.799
I don't know why the police departments are not
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:22.920
asking for the budget to get this done. I don't
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.220
know why the for -profit vendors are charging
00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:28.140
so much. Like I said, there's a whole thing here.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.980
So it is depressing, but at the same time, when
00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:35.700
you can bring the answers to the family, there's
00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:40.460
nothing like it. And so once you find the person
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:45.990
and you identify the person, it makes it all
00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:48.740
better. You're being part of the solution instead
00:25:48.740 --> 00:25:51.200
of just complaining about the problem. It can
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.130
be, it's depressing the number and that we're
00:25:55.130 --> 00:25:57.970
not doing enough about it. And I don't think
00:25:57.970 --> 00:26:01.210
the public should have to donate or pay for it.
00:26:01.250 --> 00:26:03.369
As I said, there's such a bigger conversation,
00:26:03.670 --> 00:26:05.849
but being part of the solution and being able
00:26:05.849 --> 00:26:09.029
to give the answers to the family. And I know
00:26:09.029 --> 00:26:11.549
that personally, because I didn't have the answers
00:26:11.549 --> 00:26:13.549
and I didn't have anybody that wanted to give
00:26:13.549 --> 00:26:17.940
them to me. How long does it take for a particular
00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:20.619
case on average? You know, you're starting with
00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:23.059
maybe a cold case or maybe you're starting with
00:26:23.059 --> 00:26:25.940
something that just recently happened. But how
00:26:25.940 --> 00:26:29.769
long does it typically take? Well, my quickest
00:26:29.769 --> 00:26:33.230
case I solved in 48 hours. Wow, that's great.
00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:38.450
Okay. Yes. And some of them, it's taken years.
00:26:38.509 --> 00:26:41.170
One of them I worked part -time for over a year
00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:44.130
and a half and it was just because of the match
00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:46.730
population. So if I can do my public service
00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:49.869
announcement, if anybody has taken a DNA test,
00:26:49.910 --> 00:26:52.690
if you would consider putting it transferring
00:26:52.690 --> 00:26:57.430
over to GEDmatch or Family Tree DNA, those are
00:26:57.430 --> 00:27:00.470
gratefully, thankfully GEDmatch and Family Tree
00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:03.170
DNA, the ones that cooperate with law enforcement.
00:27:03.789 --> 00:27:06.289
Getting your profile over there, because depending
00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:11.359
on certain populations, we just don't have. High
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:13.799
enough matches meaning close enough relatives.
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:16.259
It doesn't mean that you can't get the job done
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:20.200
It just means it's going to take longer Because
00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:23.039
you're working with more distant relatives. I
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.160
have heard of people like who have done their
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:31.539
23 me and Apparently they found somebody on somebody's
00:27:31.539 --> 00:27:35.000
family line and were able to arrest a suspect
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.779
for a serial killer like ages and ages ago, I'm
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:43.700
like That's a great story. I don't know if it
00:27:43.700 --> 00:27:48.000
happens that often though. You mean, well, yeah,
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:49.940
they're working cases all the time. And as this
00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:52.579
is coming online, we're getting more and more
00:27:52.579 --> 00:27:55.440
and more people. The problem is the capacity
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.359
to do this, the funding to do this. Why does
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.740
it cost so much? Where's the oversight of it?
00:28:01.930 --> 00:28:04.269
How can we do it better? Right. It's a new tech
00:28:04.269 --> 00:28:06.789
and the government moves slow. But yes, it's
00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:08.849
happening all the time. Cases are being worked.
00:28:09.049 --> 00:28:11.690
all the time. I've got a couple right now that
00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:17.190
I'm working on. And so if you go back to the
00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:18.869
original case, like I said, the neighborhood
00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:21.369
canvas, it's just interrogating the relatives.
00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:25.109
But what we have here, what I find is, and I
00:28:25.109 --> 00:28:27.630
have it in the case, one of the cases that I'm
00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:30.789
working now, people are not who they think they
00:28:30.789 --> 00:28:34.210
are. Exactly what happened with me. So when you're
00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:37.049
looking for the unknown human or the suspect,
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:41.559
you start looking at relatives. And then you're
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:45.720
like, no, they're not who they think they are
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.220
because you can tell from the matches. So then
00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:50.519
you have to drop what you're doing and go to
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:53.380
that relative and figure out who that person
00:28:53.380 --> 00:28:57.539
is so that then you can identify the proper family.
00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:01.079
It's a lot, yeah. It's not like you could put
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:04.119
it in a slot machine and it's like John Doe.
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.039
No, it's not like that, yeah. Is the frequency
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.039
of like your dad is not who you thought your
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:14.750
dad was. Is that really common? Your grandparents
00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:20.500
were all those secrets. Yes. It's, it's very
00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:23.960
common. When I was teaching my live classes of
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.400
about 25 to 30 police officers at a time, I would
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:31.180
have at least one or two that had an oopsie in
00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:36.210
there. Wow. Okay. I think it happens a lot more
00:29:36.210 --> 00:29:39.869
than people believe. Absolutely, and because
00:29:39.869 --> 00:29:44.240
back in the day, the secrets, right? I think
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:46.859
in today's society, we're more forthcoming about
00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:50.079
who we are and what, you know, like, no big deal,
00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:52.799
people are people. But back in the day, it was
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:57.140
a big secret, right? I found in my own family...
00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:00.269
I had, and this is terrible for my mom, you know,
00:30:00.450 --> 00:30:03.309
like, sorry, but you did it. She gave away three
00:30:03.309 --> 00:30:05.789
children. She put three children up for adoption
00:30:05.789 --> 00:30:14.190
before keeping me. Wow. And like I said, there's
00:30:14.190 --> 00:30:16.750
a whole lot of, I call it DNA drama, right? There's
00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:20.670
a whole lot of that there, but it was based upon
00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:24.349
the dynamics that she had in her family. Like,
00:30:24.349 --> 00:30:28.130
she wasn't the only one, right? There was just
00:30:28.130 --> 00:30:31.410
a lot of stuff going on. She was very young.
00:30:32.509 --> 00:30:35.069
You hear the stories in the news, like, yeah,
00:30:35.069 --> 00:30:39.410
that's a book I'm going to write. But yeah, it's
00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:43.910
just way, it's way common. Then, yeah, back in
00:30:43.910 --> 00:30:46.150
the day, everything was covered up. People, you
00:30:46.150 --> 00:30:49.109
know, aunts and sisters and people raised the
00:30:49.109 --> 00:30:50.990
other children of the people who shouldn't, you
00:30:50.990 --> 00:30:54.349
know, had kids and yeah. Have you tracked down
00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:57.910
those other three siblings? Yes. Well, they popped
00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:04.410
up. They popped up. Oh, so you haven't met them
00:31:04.410 --> 00:31:10.029
or? They're fine with their lives. Yeah, I tried.
00:31:10.349 --> 00:31:12.529
I tried. There seems to be a lot of anger there,
00:31:12.529 --> 00:31:15.230
which I can understand. They seem to feel, and
00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:17.950
again, this is just my opinion because they haven't
00:31:17.950 --> 00:31:20.809
really made the time. They seem to feel that
00:31:20.809 --> 00:31:24.210
since I got the mom, I got the prize, which is
00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:27.569
not necessarily the case. But everybody has their
00:31:27.569 --> 00:31:30.910
own dynamics, right? And so, God bless them,
00:31:31.009 --> 00:31:32.970
goodwill, you know, I gave them all the answers.
00:31:33.450 --> 00:31:36.730
That's what I'm always about, giving people the
00:31:36.730 --> 00:31:39.410
answers. If you have answers to somebody's family
00:31:39.410 --> 00:31:43.609
or whatever, it has nothing to do with you. Please,
00:31:43.609 --> 00:31:46.779
please give these poor children, because when
00:31:46.779 --> 00:31:49.319
this happens to us, we become little children,
00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:52.259
and we just want our parents. Like I can't even
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:56.460
explain to you, how it feels inside. It's a feeling
00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:59.539
that I never wanted to have. Please give these
00:31:59.539 --> 00:32:03.960
poor children, these abandoned children the answers,
00:32:04.180 --> 00:32:09.119
any answers, please. What's the hardest part
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:15.349
about doing your job? Oh, it's very exciting.
00:32:15.650 --> 00:32:18.730
It's very exciting. Sometimes it doesn't go fast
00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:23.630
enough. You feel, you feel sometimes you can't
00:32:23.630 --> 00:32:27.960
do enough. People won't cooperate. Sometimes
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:33.630
the system won't cooperate. Sometimes people...
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:38.690
I had, and this is a sad story, I had a case
00:32:38.690 --> 00:32:43.710
of unidentified human remains. And not to go
00:32:43.710 --> 00:32:46.089
into too much detail, the statute of limitations
00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:50.410
ran out. And so the agency said, well, the statute
00:32:50.410 --> 00:32:53.450
of limitations ran out, so we're not going to
00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:58.269
do anything more on it. And I said, it's a human
00:32:58.269 --> 00:33:02.680
being. It's a being. And that broke my heart.
00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:06.019
So fighting the system, another one, a case that
00:33:06.019 --> 00:33:11.299
I solved, two of the big name providers were
00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:15.880
on the case. The child, I call him a child, sat
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.960
in the morgue for eight years. It took me a year
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.119
and a half to solve it, but I solved it. Like,
00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:24.839
I can't give up, right? So... When you talk about
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:28.019
it being sad and heartbreaking, sometimes it
00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:31.359
can get you emotionally, but I don't like the
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:34.059
system right now. The system needs to be better.
00:33:35.029 --> 00:33:37.109
And sometimes people don't listen to you. So
00:33:37.109 --> 00:33:42.380
it's a double -edged sword. Yeah. So rewarding,
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.220
but you have to be careful. You just mentioned
00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:50.059
that you had a situation where the remains is
00:33:50.059 --> 00:33:54.079
sitting in the police department for eight years.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.950
Mm -hmm because the state could not bury the
00:33:57.950 --> 00:34:03.369
body or Process the body the remains Which I
00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:07.230
think is good Okay, because because here's another
00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:09.630
thing so hold that thought for a second so they
00:34:09.630 --> 00:34:12.869
couldn't process the remains until the identification
00:34:12.869 --> 00:34:17.389
was made which is good because Here's another
00:34:17.389 --> 00:34:19.989
problem many people say well, it's just some
00:34:19.989 --> 00:34:23.150
bones. It's just unknown human remains. Well,
00:34:23.269 --> 00:34:26.619
no Until you know the victimology, until you
00:34:26.619 --> 00:34:30.119
know who that person is, you don't know if it's
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.869
a homicide or whatever it is. So if you destroy
00:34:34.869 --> 00:34:39.010
the evidence, which we've had in cases, then
00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:43.710
you have nothing to work with. But no, this was
00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:47.090
the situation. So it's terrible. It's terrible.
00:34:47.190 --> 00:34:50.530
We don't even have, in the NAMA system, all the
00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:53.949
missing people in the United States are not in
00:34:53.949 --> 00:34:59.949
there. Really? Yes, really. Raise my eyebrow,
00:34:59.989 --> 00:35:02.670
because is the system not centralized? Well,
00:35:02.829 --> 00:35:05.190
these cases, some of them are old. There's cases
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:07.969
in there now from over 100 years old bodies that
00:35:07.969 --> 00:35:13.099
were found. Really? Wow. I worked with an agency
00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:16.239
that had a deceased person they didn't even know
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.940
that they had in the investigations division.
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.860
They didn't even know that they had it. I'm like,
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:29.739
who's this guy here? You know paper files It's
00:35:29.739 --> 00:35:32.800
it's a government process. It's the administered
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.739
by grant funding or this funding and somebody's
00:35:35.739 --> 00:35:39.159
working on it And then you also have its name.
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.000
It says a relational database So it hits on different
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:47.079
criteria. And so if it's garbage in It's it's
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:49.739
garbage out right? So if they just say so many
00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:52.980
times you look at it and it just says mail It
00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:55.179
doesn't have the clothing or the distinctive
00:35:55.179 --> 00:35:58.559
jewelry or the distinctive tattoos or the, you
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.739
really need somebody that's entering it in there
00:36:01.739 --> 00:36:05.559
with, as again, I said, the law enforcement mindset
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:09.159
of what do you need to properly identify it or
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:13.159
from the medical examiner perspective, fillings,
00:36:14.619 --> 00:36:17.780
physical deformities. Right? Because then the
00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:20.780
computer can go behind the scenes and actually
00:36:20.780 --> 00:36:24.679
make those matches. But when it's vague, female
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:27.699
here, female there, because most people, and
00:36:27.699 --> 00:36:30.539
especially now, back in the day, we didn't travel
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:34.949
that much. Now we're all over the world. And
00:36:34.949 --> 00:36:37.989
so if we don't have all the particulars down
00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:40.250
to the nitty -gritty, it just makes it harder.
00:36:40.469 --> 00:36:46.219
So there's a lot at play. You you made a mention
00:36:46.219 --> 00:36:49.440
of agencies not doing things the way they should
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.719
be what mistakes are they making? Oh Well, well,
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:55.599
I want to answer this right like I don't want
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:58.199
to police bash Of course, I would never want
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:00.599
to do that and I don't want to bash the people
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:03.880
that are doing this either because Like myself
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:07.079
those people we're the outsiders. They stood
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:10.579
up and said here's a problem. We have a solution
00:37:10.650 --> 00:37:14.659
but They haven't been bitten in the rear end
00:37:14.659 --> 00:37:17.539
enough by a big enough lawsuit or a big enough
00:37:17.539 --> 00:37:23.409
loss or a big enough case to realize the police
00:37:23.409 --> 00:37:28.500
don't know. So I think it's more of people come
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:30.780
to the department, you know, like I do, and they
00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:32.320
say, I can help you with this. And they're like,
00:37:32.340 --> 00:37:34.880
okay. And because it's something that they want
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:38.480
to try, they're really trying to do stuff. They
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.800
don't understand the ramifications because it
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.889
didn't originate as a normal police function.
00:37:45.429 --> 00:37:48.190
And we've unfortunately seen some cases where
00:37:48.190 --> 00:37:51.070
some things have been done, but at the same time,
00:37:51.170 --> 00:37:53.250
sometimes you have to put a halt and say, okay,
00:37:53.289 --> 00:37:56.369
let's look into this and let's make sure that
00:37:56.369 --> 00:37:59.989
we're really doing it the right way. And, you
00:37:59.989 --> 00:38:03.849
know, so where the funding's coming from, who's
00:38:03.849 --> 00:38:07.889
doing it, because even, even the police department,
00:38:08.030 --> 00:38:10.420
right, because I look at it At the other side,
00:38:10.420 --> 00:38:13.559
I do work some defense cases. I do look at down
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:18.099
the end, down the line. I mean, what if we have,
00:38:18.510 --> 00:38:22.550
oh my God, a wrongful conviction, right? What
00:38:22.550 --> 00:38:25.130
if we have the wrong person identified? We don't
00:38:25.130 --> 00:38:28.030
want that. But the police many times look at
00:38:28.030 --> 00:38:30.769
it up to the arrest. Look, we just got our ID.
00:38:30.969 --> 00:38:33.989
We're good, but it's not the rest of it. And
00:38:33.989 --> 00:38:37.650
we haven't been through enough of this to be
00:38:37.650 --> 00:38:39.949
more, they should be more proactive. What do
00:38:39.949 --> 00:38:44.519
you think? The skills are that separate an experienced
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:50.440
forensic genetic genealogist to your recreational
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:57.260
genealogist. Oh You need to stay in the game
00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:01.219
Okay, that's one thing that you know, they taught
00:39:01.219 --> 00:39:04.659
me in the police academy You don't go down you
00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:09.409
get back up, right? You never stop at all until
00:39:09.409 --> 00:39:12.480
you're dead like you might And that's a survival
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.199
mechanism, but it can be applied towards other
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.519
things in your life. People like, I don't believe
00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:19.159
you just keep getting up and keep going. I don't
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:21.360
say that's why I was trained. I was a baby. That's
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.860
why I was trained. And so that investigative
00:39:24.860 --> 00:39:28.159
mindset, that's why I say a little bit more on
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:30.940
the investigative training. You have to know
00:39:30.940 --> 00:39:33.820
when there's some BS going on. You have to have
00:39:33.820 --> 00:39:37.360
that suspicious nature. You have to have the
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.239
investigative, the whole preparing it for the
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:42.960
court system, dealing at it, looking at it from
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.780
the cop eyes instead of the civilian eyes. That's
00:39:46.780 --> 00:39:49.699
where I think the problem is. What would you
00:39:49.699 --> 00:39:53.980
tell your younger self? What would I tell my
00:39:53.980 --> 00:39:59.099
younger self? Oh my goodness. You can do anything
00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:02.880
that you set your mind to, but you won't believe
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.119
it. Just go and have fun. Life is short. I can't
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:11.019
believe I still feel like I'm 20. Right? So I'm
00:40:11.019 --> 00:40:13.260
kind of sad about that, that I wish I would have
00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:19.320
done more things. Just go for it. You'll figure
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.840
out a way. I played, and maybe it comes from
00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.119
being in the police department, I played in the
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:27.980
system for too long. I'm not talking about break
00:40:27.980 --> 00:40:31.559
the law, but I'm more so talk about do what you
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.739
want. It's okay to say no. It's okay to have
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:38.760
your own opinions. And it's okay, you know. because
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:43.199
there's the hurting other people thing versus
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:46.360
the committing a crime thing. And I don't think
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:50.599
I supported myself enough about being able to
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:54.599
be my own person. And I'm only coming into that,
00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:59.099
which I feel now is too late, if that makes any
00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:05.539
sense. And you can change your mind. You can
00:41:05.539 --> 00:41:08.619
change your mind, and it's going to be okay.
00:41:09.690 --> 00:41:12.469
You have the permission to change your mind.
00:41:12.489 --> 00:41:14.909
You don't need anybody else's permission. Yes,
00:41:14.909 --> 00:41:17.949
you might be married or yes, you might, but that
00:41:17.949 --> 00:41:20.570
is all within you and you can create anything
00:41:20.570 --> 00:41:23.949
that you want to and just have fun. Life's too
00:41:23.949 --> 00:41:27.389
short. So we could talk to Christine all day.
00:41:29.550 --> 00:41:31.650
Thank you guys so much for having me. I hope
00:41:31.650 --> 00:41:36.329
that this is inspired. I will just say, if I
00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:39.469
can just add this going through the police academy
00:41:39.469 --> 00:41:42.389
and that stuff dealing with this situation. I
00:41:42.389 --> 00:41:45.250
did it because I wanted to do it. I never perceived
00:41:45.250 --> 00:41:48.389
it as being difficult. I hated all the running.
00:41:48.530 --> 00:41:54.289
I really hated that, but it was fun to me. It
00:41:54.289 --> 00:41:58.530
was fun to me and I didn't know any different.
00:41:58.909 --> 00:42:04.150
So don't perceive a problem. Like just get out
00:42:04.150 --> 00:42:07.570
there and try it. You will be so surprised. Like
00:42:07.570 --> 00:42:10.030
I said, I was Dainty Christy. Now I'm, you know,
00:42:10.489 --> 00:42:13.150
something completely different and I would have
00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:15.869
never known that I had it in me. And you don't
00:42:15.869 --> 00:42:20.690
know until you try. You're way more capable than
00:42:20.690 --> 00:42:22.909
you think you are. And don't let anybody tell
00:42:22.909 --> 00:42:26.469
you no. Just, yeah. It's like Maggie, just do
00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:31.159
it. Just do it, yes. You pick yourself up and
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:33.820
you go and do something else. Life is too short.
00:42:33.860 --> 00:42:36.940
It's for you to be here and give your talents
00:42:36.940 --> 00:42:41.099
and your abilities to everybody else. There are
00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:44.710
people that are waiting for you to bless them,
00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:47.989
guide them, help them, birth them, raise them,
00:42:48.190 --> 00:42:51.150
be a partner in life with them. They're waiting
00:42:51.150 --> 00:42:53.889
for you. You have a mission here that you were
00:42:53.889 --> 00:42:57.289
put on to do and just do it and try to have as
00:42:57.289 --> 00:43:00.010
much fun. doing it without harming other people.
00:43:00.030 --> 00:43:04.070
Yeah, you got it. Just go for it. Thank you so
00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:05.889
much, Christine. You're welcome. It was so nice
00:43:05.889 --> 00:43:08.670
to meet you ladies. Thank you so much and I appreciate
00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:19.980
the opportunity. Thank you, Christine. She was
00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:23.760
fascinating. I could talk to her all night. I
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:29.929
think her entire career, so unconventional. There
00:43:29.929 --> 00:43:34.710
was so much to really talk about, like so many
00:43:34.710 --> 00:43:39.539
different avenues from her work as a police officer,
00:43:40.940 --> 00:43:46.340
to being in a male -dominated field, to investing
00:43:46.340 --> 00:43:50.280
herself in her current career. Yeah, and now
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.659
being a forensic genetic genealogist. Like I
00:43:53.659 --> 00:43:56.639
said in the interview, is this sort of like CSI?
00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.360
Because that was like my ability to like connect
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.519
on kind of generally what we were talking about
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.059
because it's just not something you come in contact
00:44:07.059 --> 00:44:09.559
with. Like nobody comes into contact with that
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:13.179
on a daily basis, unless you're in the field.
00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:20.690
Yes. And it's an okay salary, I think. But I
00:44:20.690 --> 00:44:22.869
think it would depend if you have a master's
00:44:22.869 --> 00:44:27.429
or a doctorate or higher education. Of course,
00:44:27.429 --> 00:44:31.050
she was a police officer, so she already has
00:44:31.050 --> 00:44:36.019
a shoe into the industry. She has a lot of...
00:44:35.789 --> 00:44:40.289
qualities and skill sets that form a really good
00:44:40.289 --> 00:44:43.429
foundation, being able to question, being able
00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:48.329
to investigate. And then because it's also rather
00:44:48.329 --> 00:44:50.909
specialized, you're talking about needing to
00:44:50.909 --> 00:44:58.690
understand DNA. So some people actually who follow
00:44:58.690 --> 00:45:01.789
this, yeah, you can get a master's or a doctorate,
00:45:02.150 --> 00:45:06.070
but honestly, even a bachelor's degree and biology
00:45:06.070 --> 00:45:08.510
or genetics or something like that initially,
00:45:08.510 --> 00:45:12.389
you can get into a lab. Because it sounded like
00:45:12.389 --> 00:45:15.389
from what she was talking about, most for -profit
00:45:15.389 --> 00:45:19.449
agencies are laboratories that process all this
00:45:19.449 --> 00:45:22.469
stuff and then provide the results, right? But
00:45:22.469 --> 00:45:27.349
she's not working in a lab. She's like the investigator
00:45:27.349 --> 00:45:32.969
part. And then she also serves as a expert witness,
00:45:33.409 --> 00:45:37.849
whether it's for the defense. or for the police
00:45:37.849 --> 00:45:41.650
department. So she can play a dual role because
00:45:41.650 --> 00:45:45.510
they both need her expertise. Yeah. And there's
00:45:45.510 --> 00:45:49.230
also those good job outlook. Apparently there
00:45:49.230 --> 00:45:52.590
are many, many, like, what did she say? How many
00:45:52.690 --> 00:45:56.570
unidentified bodies are just sort of sitting
00:45:56.570 --> 00:46:01.889
in morgues? 15 ,000 plus. That's so, so grim.
00:46:02.909 --> 00:46:07.389
But job outlook, 13 % growth. which we need people
00:46:07.389 --> 00:46:10.590
like her. Well, the demand is mostly because
00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:15.570
of unsolved crimes, but also there's a lot of
00:46:15.570 --> 00:46:18.070
need for trained professionals who can actually
00:46:18.070 --> 00:46:20.829
do this stuff. It's interesting to me because
00:46:20.829 --> 00:46:24.289
the types of avenues you can go for this job
00:46:24.289 --> 00:46:28.750
are obviously law enforcement. You can go into
00:46:28.750 --> 00:46:34.079
a crime laboratory. You can just be a genealogical
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.280
research specialist, and then you're really just
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:40.559
an expert that helps somebody solve stuff. You
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.920
could do private consulting and expert witness
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:47.199
work. You can train people on how to do this.
00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:50.559
I mean, there's a lot of different options. So
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:56.219
even while the initial median or average benchmark
00:46:56.219 --> 00:47:00.150
for the salary is kind of... in the middle, like
00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:04.389
70 ,000. You can actually make more if you have
00:47:04.389 --> 00:47:08.989
more expertise. Right. Which is pretty good.
00:47:09.630 --> 00:47:13.530
Which is still pretty good. And if you love kind
00:47:13.530 --> 00:47:17.869
of solving puzzles, I mean, that's really like
00:47:17.869 --> 00:47:22.429
puzzle solving, right? Not to be glib about human
00:47:22.429 --> 00:47:25.250
remains and stuff like that. When you think about
00:47:25.250 --> 00:47:29.650
the fact that the field might have very few experts
00:47:29.650 --> 00:47:32.469
to help with this, it could be pretty lucrative
00:47:32.469 --> 00:47:38.820
in the right circumstances. But the skills, I
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:43.099
think, that are really critical is you have to
00:47:43.099 --> 00:47:47.679
actually understand genealogy and the research
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:54.099
process of it, forensic DNA, how to access research
00:47:54.099 --> 00:47:58.690
databases, how to do digital investigation. And
00:47:58.690 --> 00:48:01.849
I think attention to detail and persistence are
00:48:01.849 --> 00:48:05.250
really important because even in her case, like
00:48:05.250 --> 00:48:08.550
her own personal situation, she sounded like
00:48:08.550 --> 00:48:11.090
she was very tenacious and trying to find out
00:48:11.090 --> 00:48:15.889
answers. Yes, being analytical and skeptical.
00:48:16.789 --> 00:48:21.789
But it's not an easy job. If you are considering
00:48:21.789 --> 00:48:25.289
something like this, I think you have to have
00:48:25.289 --> 00:48:30.110
a strong stomach. Oh, God. I think you also have
00:48:30.110 --> 00:48:34.590
to be intellectually curious about and wanting
00:48:34.590 --> 00:48:38.360
to problem solve. And I think that if you can
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:41.360
have some of those key qualities, just like without
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:44.519
it being hard skills or soft skills, is that
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:47.719
you yourself wanting to bring that. I think that
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:50.500
it may be a path for you. I guess what moves
00:48:50.500 --> 00:48:53.539
me the most is that Christine spent years searching
00:48:53.539 --> 00:48:56.219
for her own answers and now she's the one handing
00:48:56.219 --> 00:48:59.280
them to families. That's really what this job
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:04.889
is. Thanks for joining us today. That's what
00:49:04.889 --> 00:49:09.269
she does and maybe what you could do too. If
00:49:09.269 --> 00:49:12.130
you like what you heard, make sure you follow
00:49:12.130 --> 00:49:15.690
what she does wherever you get your podcast.