What Does Workplace Wellbeing Actually Feel Like? | Sara Silvonen | Great Place To Work UK

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Language: en
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An organization can offer well-being
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benefits, support services, and all of
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the right policies. But does that
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necessarily mean its employees
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experience a healthy workplace? And what
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happens when two employees working for
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the same organization experience very
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different levels of trust, care, and
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psychological safety? In this episode of
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Well-being Talk, we're asking, what does
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workplace well-being actually feel like?
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And how can organizations tell if it's
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genuinely embedded in their culture?
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clear the the the right things, the best
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things, the most fundamental things are
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the ones that are so integrated anyway
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into your workflows, relationships,
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processes, systems that they don't seem
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to be wellness or well-being initiatives
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at all. They're just blended into the
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fabric of the organization that it's not
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a kind of detractor from your overall
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well-being, your life satisfaction.
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You're not a weekend warrior. You're
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not, you know, waiting for 5:00 or
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living for the weekends, that kind of
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thing.
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>> Sure. but that work is a fundamental
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contributor to your overall life
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satisfaction.
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>> To help us explore these questions, I'm
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joined by Sarah Silvenon, senior
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consultant and well-being lead at Great
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Place to Work UK. Drawing on the
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experience of millions of employees,
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Sarah's work explores the link between
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trust, leadership, well-being, and
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organizational performance. Together,
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we'll discuss the difference between
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providing support and creating a culture
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of well-being. What trust looks like
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during an ordinary working day, why
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employee experiences can vary. so
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significantly within the same
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organization and what the evidence can
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genuinely tell us about well-being,
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retention, and productivity. My name is
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Matt Balfur, founder of Let's Go
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Wellbeing, and this is well-being talk.
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Sarah, thank you for joining the show.
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Really, really nice to meet you.
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>> Likewise. Thank you for having me.
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>> So, you're currently the senior
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consultant and well-being lead at Great
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Place to Work UK. Um, before we get into
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the research, I'd like to understand a
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little bit more about the person behind
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the data.
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With that in mind, what first led you to
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becoming interested in how people
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experience the workplace?
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>> Yeah, I mean, I can't say it was a like
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a pivotal moment or anything like that.
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Probably more of a a gradual evolution.
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Uh, my sort of first love or my first
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passion was psychology, always
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psychology. Um, probably more the
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abnormal clinical side of it, but also
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social psychology. And then over time, I
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just applied that more to the
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organizational context. Um, I guess I
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felt I could maybe sort of reach more
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people that way. You know, most people
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work. It's quite a relatable thing. Um,
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a lot of people have some kind of job
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stress, this kind of thing. So, it was
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just quite universal. Um, just a way I
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could maybe have a bit of an impact in
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in people's dayto-day. Um, and then I
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think the other more organic influence
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for me was growing up with a bit of a
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workaholic dad. um watching the long
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hours, watching sort of his stress, but
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in equal measure his kind of utmost
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dedication to to his job as a as a civil
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servant in the in the Euro system. So it
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was always interesting how that kind of
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dedication almost
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made up for or justified the the sort of
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sacrifices. Whether that's good or bad
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is maybe a different question, but I
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found it interesting.
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So
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what problem would you say you were
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trying to solve by kind of focusing on
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the psychology you mentioned? Would you
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say it was a case of trying to find a
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way to balance the self-sacrifice with
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the with the impact that you saw uh from
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your dad's work?
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>> Yeah, I mean I probably wasn't
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consciously trying to to solve a problem
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at the time. It was just sort of I mean
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from a very young age even I was kind of
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witnessing this and and sort of partly
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realizing that there's a lot of power in
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and purpose and purpose of work and I
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think that still applies today but you
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know it can't go into this sort of
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detrimental space where you're you know
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sacrificing things from from other parts
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of of your life. So I guess finding this
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sort of happy happy balance happy middle
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ground but definitely you know retaining
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that that kind of purpose.
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>> Yeah. Interesting.
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>> In a sustainable way I guess.
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>> Yeah. So when you first began working in
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this area, what did you believe made a
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healthy workplace? And how would you say
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that your thinking has evolved over
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time?
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>> Well, when I first started working in
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the field, I'd just come from a degree
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in the field. So I basically just
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believed the the academic theories
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around workplace well-being and and what
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that comes down to, which was uh
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positive affect, so feeling happy on the
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job or positive feelings. um udemonic
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well-being, so feeling purpose,
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fulfillment, kind of a bigger picture,
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long-term goals, that kind of thing, and
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social well-being, relationships. Um, of
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course, I was a bit naive and had a lot
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to learn about, you know, what actually
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goes on in organizations and what
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actually matters to people. Um, for
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example, when I saw my first great place
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to work contract, I remember reading a
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line like, "Our core hours are, you
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know, XYZ, but we work flexibly." And I
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had zero idea what that meant. and I had
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to ask the the HR contact, what flexible
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working or working flexibly means. Um,
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I'd just never never come across it
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before. So, yes, I've definitely learned
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a lot about, you know, real world stuff
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in in the last 10 years. Um, but in some
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ways, I've also come full circle back to
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that original more sort of academic,
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simpler, more wholesome, holistic way of
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of thinking about it. I think those
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original things that I thought a decade
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ago actually still ring true and there's
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a lot of value in that. Um but the sort
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of corporate wellness industry uh tends
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to convolute our thinking a little bit
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confuse what it's actually about.
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>> Sure. And just picking up on that
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confusion bit. So I mean you mentioned
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flexibility in terms of working positive
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effect. You mentioned purpose uh and uh
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udonomic sense of fulfillment in in a
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person's work. What would you say was
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the kind of biggest disconnect that you
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kind of noticed between that and the
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kind of corporate reality?
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>> The relationships part the social
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wellbeing part that certainly applies. I
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always felt that you know having a sense
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of community and connecting with peers
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and the role of line managers and
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leaders that was sort of immediately
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obvious. Sure. Um the other two maybe
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not not so much you we see it in our our
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surveys as well when when we ask people
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what's you know the best thing about
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working here unique or unusual very few
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talk about oh the purpose of of the role
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the special meaning that that it gives
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me um that kind of thing is I think much
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more kind of obscured in in the real
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world and people do um maybe think more
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sort of transactionally around certain
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things I mean flexible working okay it
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was new to me at the time now it's you
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know everywhere it's you know if you
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don't offer it Um those are kind of the
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the top of mind things. So yeah, those
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were just the things you wouldn't really
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know unless unless you you know
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experienced things firsthand.
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>> Understood. And and speaking of some of
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your survey work, I mean we're going to
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be talking about that in in some detail,
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but um you know in terms of the bigger
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picture, great place to work draws on uh
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the experience of millions of employees
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um across different organizations,
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industries and and countries at scale.
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We've mentioned well-being and you know
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uh healthy if not positive effects in
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the workplace. probably worthwhile
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establishing what we're actually
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measuring when we talk about workplace
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well-being. So with that in mind, what
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does great place to work measure that a
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list of standalone benefits or
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interventions don't necessarily reveal?
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>> Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. Um I
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agree. Definitions are are all
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important. This is such a muddled field.
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There are so many kind of interrelated
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concepts. You can make so many claims
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just depending on how you're defining
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things, how you're measuring things. So
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we do need to to to clarify these
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things. um what we measure whether it's
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sort of the extent to which you're a
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great place to work which has a lot to
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do with trust in our view whether you're
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measuring employee well-being employee
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engagement we are really looking at the
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consistency of employee experiences so
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we are looking at subjectively how often
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people feel something to be true in the
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workplace in their day-to-day lives um
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and that's many different things their
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relationships to to leaders their
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ability to to de develop the way they're
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recognized appreciated all these things
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Um so really that that consistency and
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the the subjective sort of experience is
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is what we look at over and above the
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objective offering like the initiatives
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the the perks that you mentioned you can
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you know offer something you can tick
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all the boxes in terms of well-being you
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can have you know your your EIPs your
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strategic pillars of you know mental
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financial uh physical social well-being
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you can have all sorts of initiatives
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under all those brackets but that
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doesn't automatically or necessarily
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mean that people are having a good
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well-being experience so we need to kind
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of connect the two what you're offering
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and what people are actually
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experiencing and point out the gaps
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really to to leadership where they where
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they exist.
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>> Yeah. And I know um through the great
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place to work effect um we we're going
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to be speaking about trust a lot more um
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in a little while. Just just thinking
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about what you said there in terms of um
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you know what Great Place to work
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measures in terms of consistency and uh
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in experience on a on a day-to-day basis
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and and what people believe to be true
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more often than not in terms of their
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you know their subjective lens. How
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would you then describe the difference
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between providing well-being support and
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actually then um creating a culture of
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well-being?
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Yeah, I mean that follows sort of what
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we were saying uh follows on from the
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objective versus subjective I think um
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difference and it's it is very
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convoluted um again partly because the
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corporate wellness industry wants us to
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believe they're the same thing.
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>> Um but also because it's usually the
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same organizations the high wellbeing
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organizations that tend to do both. Um
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but actually I mean what I think is that
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well-being support is often quite uh
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reactive. It can be passive. It can even
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be, you know, outsourced to to your EAPs
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or occupational health, that kind of
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thing at the extreme end of the the
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spectrum. Um, or it can be a bit more
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internal and integrative. You can have
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your wellbeing champions, mental health
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first aers, um, sort of awareness
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programs and initiatives that, you know,
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some opt into um, you know, it will mean
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a lot more to some people in
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organizations than others, meaningful
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levels of engagement across the
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organization. You know, that might be
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questionable. Whereas a culture of
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well-being is exactly that. It's a it's
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a culture. It's so embedded into the
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fabric of the business. Um that is
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interchangeable with just like the way
00:10:03.839 --> 00:10:05.509
you do things every single day. So the
00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:07.190
tasks that people do, how they perform
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:09.110
them, the interactions that they have
00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.110
with their managers, with their leaders,
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.190
you're not opting in or out of them. You
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:14.470
would never think of them as a
00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.269
well-being initiative. It's just the way
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.110
we do things around here, which is
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:20.949
culture by definition.
00:10:20.959 --> 00:10:21.269
>> Yes.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:22.310
>> So that's how I see it.
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:23.750
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. So,
00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:26.470
proactive, consistent,
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:29.430
uh, based on trust and subjectively true
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.990
for most of the people more often than
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:32.710
not.
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:34.949
>> Exactly that.
00:10:34.959 --> 00:10:37.829
>> And across all of these employee
00:10:37.839 --> 00:10:39.750
experiences, across your nine years of
00:10:39.760 --> 00:10:42.069
studying employees experiences at Great
00:10:42.079 --> 00:10:44.790
Place to work, have any of the findings
00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:47.430
surprised you?
00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.030
>> Um, yeah. Well, yes and no. Uh there are
00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:52.949
things we or you know anyone would
00:10:52.959 --> 00:10:54.790
probably expect to score a bit lower.
00:10:54.800 --> 00:10:57.030
People's perceptions of fair pay for
00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:59.030
example rewards generally tend to to
00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:00.550
score a little bit lower as does sort of
00:11:00.560 --> 00:11:02.550
financial well-being support. That that
00:11:02.560 --> 00:11:03.829
kind of makes sense.
00:11:03.839 --> 00:11:07.430
>> Um our best workplaces lists which is
00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.030
what our benchmarks are based on.
00:11:09.040 --> 00:11:10.710
They're not a nationally representative
00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:12.389
group of course. They're a creme de la
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.470
creme. They're the the best. Um and then
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:15.509
that's what they're meant to be an
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:17.190
aspirational benchmark for you know
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:19.269
organizations to aim towards. So we also
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.110
run this population survey every few
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.550
years which looks at nationally
00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:24.550
representative organizations. So we have
00:11:24.560 --> 00:11:26.710
this sort of national benchmark to
00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.630
compare them to and I think that's where
00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:30.069
the findings are really interesting to
00:11:30.079 --> 00:11:31.990
see where they differ the most and where
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:33.990
they have the the least gap. So
00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.790
generally there's about a 20 23 point
00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:39.110
gap on just well-being experience if we
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.110
look at our holistic well-being index.
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.590
So over 80% of those at best workplaces
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:45.430
are having this consistent positive
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.750
well-being experience um compared to
00:11:47.760 --> 00:11:51.030
just uh 60% at nally representative
00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:53.269
workplaces. Um where they have even
00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.269
bigger gaps is around really basic
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:56.949
things like management showing a sincere
00:11:56.959 --> 00:11:59.750
interest in you um as a person, not just
00:11:59.760 --> 00:12:02.069
an employee. There's a 33 point gap
00:12:02.079 --> 00:12:03.590
between the best and nationally
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.990
representative workplaces. Those things
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.069
you might expect or I certainly wasn't
00:12:08.079 --> 00:12:10.389
surprised to see that. What I was
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.509
surprised to see is where or what's most
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:15.509
interesting is where the best workplaces
00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:17.590
are scoring a little bit lower. So where
00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:19.590
even the best are not doing very well
00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:21.110
and where the gaps are the smallest
00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.430
between the two. And the statement that
00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.190
has by far the smallest gap only eight
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.509
percentage points is around job stress.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:29.110
So your job demands causing you
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.269
excessive stress. I think it's something
00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.949
like um 40% of those at best workplaces
00:12:34.959 --> 00:12:36.710
feel like that's sometimes true if not
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.190
often or almost always um compared to
00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.790
almost half of those at nationally
00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:42.230
representative workplaces. But that's
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.470
just an eight-point gap. So that
00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:46.230
probably tells us that job stress is a
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.269
bit of a an epidemic in in this country
00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.509
um that even the the best of otherwise
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.430
very high performing high wellbeing
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.110
organizations, they're not insulated.
00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:55.590
>> Yeah.
00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:57.030
>> From that. It's a challenge.
00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:59.750
>> That's really interesting. And I guess
00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:01.750
my take on that initially is that
00:13:01.760 --> 00:13:04.389
perhaps then if if stress um and the
00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:06.389
workplace causing people stress is true
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.629
for the creme de la creme and almost as
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.269
a kind of a national average it's
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.990
perhaps not so much about the drivers
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.629
whether that's autonomy uh job design or
00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:19.350
workload and maybe more so about how we
00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.310
navigate and lead people um through
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.790
those stressors. Um which brings me on
00:13:24.800 --> 00:13:27.269
to um my my next thread which is about
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:29.509
you know trust as the foundation of you
00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.590
know um good workplace well-being
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.030
because one of the strongest arguments
00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:34.550
running through the well-being at work
00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:37.430
summary is that uh these outcomes aren't
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.190
principally created by isolated
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.870
initiatives and they emerge from
00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:43.269
everyday culture surrounding people um
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.509
and great place to work identifies trust
00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:47.590
as that foundation.
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.670
However,
00:13:49.680 --> 00:13:53.350
trust can still sound slightly
00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.110
intangible.
00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:56.389
>> Let's say something that most
00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:58.629
organizations would say is important but
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:00.470
struggle to connect explicitly with
00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.389
performance.
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:03.910
>> However, the great place to work
00:14:03.920 --> 00:14:05.990
presents it as a measurable link between
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.750
uh leadership, employee experience and
00:14:07.760 --> 00:14:09.509
business outcomes. So, the question to
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.030
follow up off the back of that is what
00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:12.870
do organizations most commonly
00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:14.629
misunderstand about the relationship
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.189
between trust and performance?
00:14:17.199 --> 00:14:18.710
Uh well first of all great summary of
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.189
the great place to work effect. Um it is
00:14:21.199 --> 00:14:23.110
the idea that everyday leadership
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.430
behaviors so how they you know speak
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:27.189
listen inspire all these things that
00:14:27.199 --> 00:14:30.150
radiates out to uh employee experiences
00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:31.750
that radiates out to the culture and
00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:33.509
that drives performance at the end of
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:35.110
the day. So that is kind of the the link
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.069
between leadership and trust and um
00:14:38.079 --> 00:14:39.750
performance. And it's true trust can
00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:42.550
seem very abstract sort of wishy-washy
00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:44.550
um whereas performance is the opposite.
00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:47.590
It's it's the bottom line. Yes. um what
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.829
it feels like on on the day-to-day. I
00:14:49.839 --> 00:14:51.990
mean trust so many things relate to it.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:54.069
Our our trust index is our whole survey
00:14:54.079 --> 00:14:55.509
60 statements. It measures so many
00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:56.790
different parts of the employee
00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:59.350
experience. But ultimately I think it's
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:01.030
about people's relationship to their
00:15:01.040 --> 00:15:03.030
leaders. So it's things like do they
00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.269
find their leaders credible? Do they
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.230
sort of trust them to steer the ship
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:09.829
essentially to to make the right
00:15:09.839 --> 00:15:11.750
decisions? Um even if there are
00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:13.910
difficult ones, unpopular ones have to
00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:16.069
be made behind closed doors.
00:15:16.079 --> 00:15:18.550
um that sort of thing. Do they speak
00:15:18.560 --> 00:15:20.310
openly to people? Do they listen to what
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.230
they have to say? Do they treat people
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.030
with respect? Treat them fairly um
00:15:25.040 --> 00:15:27.110
empower them where relevant involve them
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.310
in decision-m where relevant. Um and do
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:32.150
people have faith in in follow-up? So if
00:15:32.160 --> 00:15:33.750
if they promise something, if they say
00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:35.670
something, do they have any reason to
00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:37.910
believe that that that won't happen? So
00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:40.550
that's probably in large part how how
00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:43.030
trust feels on a day-to-day with regards
00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:44.470
to leadership anyway, which is what a
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:45.990
lot of it is about or certainly starts
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.590
with based on the effect.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.829
>> Sure. And and so this the 60 questions
00:15:49.839 --> 00:15:50.790
that you mentioned that they're
00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:53.430
calibrated to to gauge how you know some
00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:54.470
of those outcomes that you mentioned
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.389
there in terms of like for example do
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:58.230
people believe that what the manage
00:15:58.240 --> 00:15:59.590
manager or leader said is going to
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.189
happen is going to happen. Is is that
00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:04.470
how the questions are? There are two
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.389
yeah there are two uh integrity
00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.150
questions in that trust index which
00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:11.590
measure exactly that. So um management
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:13.430
uh follows up on their promises delivers
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:14.710
on their promises that kind of thing.
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.710
Management's actions match their words.
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.189
So we do partly very directly measure
00:16:19.199 --> 00:16:21.430
the integrity follow- through element as
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.749
well. Um but then also much more broadly
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:25.670
um the employee experience. But a lot of
00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:27.590
it a lot of our statements start with
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.550
the word management. So it is tailored
00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:32.629
towards management behaviors. sure
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.870
>> these kind of dayto-day things
00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:37.189
>> and and just following up on that, the
00:16:37.199 --> 00:16:39.749
great place to work effect kind of um
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.749
helps to make this whole idea of trust
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.910
and management leadership behaviors even
00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:45.990
more tangible. It talks about the nine
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:47.509
repeated leadership behaviors. I think
00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:48.790
some of them you just kind of mentioned
00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:50.470
there. Um let's see if I get them all.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.710
Leadership, sorry, listening, speaking,
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.030
developing, inspiring, thanking,
00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:57.590
sharing, celebrating, hiring, welcoming,
00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:58.550
and caring.
00:16:58.560 --> 00:16:59.189
>> You got it.
00:16:59.199 --> 00:17:00.230
>> That was all of them.
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.230
>> Yeah. Okay. Good. Good.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:04.789
So the suggestion being that again trust
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.350
isn't produced by a statement of values
00:17:07.360 --> 00:17:09.350
um but it accumulates through the way
00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:11.350
that leaders behave repeatedly over
00:17:11.360 --> 00:17:11.750
time.
00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:12.789
>> Yeah.
00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:16.470
>> So here's the thing. If an organization
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:18.710
was a senior leadership team was
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.429
starting from scratch um but they were
00:17:21.439 --> 00:17:22.710
brought into this idea that you know
00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.309
trust should be the foundation of their
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.390
kind of well-being strategy.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:28.150
>> Which of those nine behaviors should
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.310
they start with?
00:17:30.320 --> 00:17:31.990
And okay, let me let me tweak that a
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:33.430
little bit as well because I mean you
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.669
you you may have been about to say well
00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:37.510
it depends on which organization like
00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:38.390
it's going to be different for
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.310
manufacturing versus engineering or I
00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:41.750
don't know retail for example which is
00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:44.549
is fair enough. So
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.430
how let me how would an organization
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.190
know which one of them to start with?
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.150
>> Yeah big question. Um, it's probably a
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:56.789
bit less about what you're starting with
00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.190
versus what you're sort of setting the
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.750
tone for and kind of delegating to other
00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:03.909
levels of management as well versus what
00:18:03.919 --> 00:18:06.390
you are, you know, principally in charge
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.150
of. Um I'd say the in a way uh the most
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:12.230
even though we don't weight them um but
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.070
to me the most kind of fundamental of
00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:15.990
those are I think the first two that you
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.630
said they're listening and and speaking
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:20.230
um because it's very hard to do any of
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.630
the others or most of the others without
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.029
those two. So for example, you inspire
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:26.950
people about the strategic vision of the
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:28.789
company by speaking to them.
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.950
>> Um you show care um and understanding of
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.549
people's personal experiences which is
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.470
you know well-being supports um by
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.470
listening actively to to their
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:41.510
experiences. So very little I'd say of
00:18:41.520 --> 00:18:43.190
leadership comes to life without
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.830
listening and and speaking. So authentic
00:18:45.840 --> 00:18:48.870
two-way communication is everything. So
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:50.950
in in many ways I'd say those two are
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.549
are the ones to really get right and via
00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:56.230
those you probably unlock a lot of the
00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:57.110
others.
00:18:57.120 --> 00:18:58.710
>> And this maybe forms part of the answer
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:00.870
to my next question because you
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.310
mentioned authentic two-way
00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:04.390
communication. So what would you say are
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.029
the earliest signs that trust within a
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:08.950
trust trust or well-being within a team
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.909
are starting to deteriorate before we
00:19:11.919 --> 00:19:13.430
see it in the the kind of the bottom
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.029
line in terms of raw performance
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.789
numbers.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.870
>> Yeah. Uh, another interesting question.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.470
Uh, it's like you've done this before.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.190
Good questions. Um,
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.110
>> I I don't know that I would actually
00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:27.029
have a kind of direct window into
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:28.870
observing that sort of
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.270
>> organically observing um trust kind of
00:19:31.280 --> 00:19:34.630
starting to to break down. Um, I'd say
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:36.310
it can or most people might assume that
00:19:36.320 --> 00:19:37.830
it looks quite sort of dramatic that
00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:40.150
there's a lot of conflict and you know
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.549
microaggressions or or politics and
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.549
backstabbing and things like that. And
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.710
it could be that, but I'd say more often
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.230
than not, it probably is a bit more the
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.710
opposite. So, people withdrawing um a
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.549
little bit into their roles, this kind
00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.430
of quiet quitting almost. Yeah. It's on
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:56.870
the tip of my tongue. Yeah.
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.029
>> I'll just do kind of the bare minimum. I
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.510
won't go above and beyond. I won't, you
00:20:01.520 --> 00:20:02.870
know, conflict's not always a bad thing.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:04.630
Positive conflict. Let's argue things.
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:06.549
Let's discuss. Let's challenge. Let's
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.110
innovate. Um none of that. Sort of
00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:10.630
people just maybe doing the bare
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.950
minimum. you know, smile and wave, nod
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.270
and wave, uh, then just retreating back
00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:17.110
into their private lives and and
00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:18.950
whatnot. So, that kind of withdrawal
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.990
might be the more common thing. Um, we
00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.510
see it in our open-ended comments and
00:20:23.520 --> 00:20:25.430
our surveys a lot as well. I think the
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.990
best or the ones that impress me the
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.830
most. The the words I see most cited and
00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:31.110
the positive comments are things like
00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:33.990
authentic, uh, genuine, consistent,
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.110
proactive, these kinds of things. And
00:20:35.120 --> 00:20:36.149
often they're talking about leadership
00:20:36.159 --> 00:20:38.310
and and management behaviors. And then
00:20:38.320 --> 00:20:40.230
the ones where it might be waning a
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:41.590
little bit or trust is starting to break
00:20:41.600 --> 00:20:43.830
down or well-being, they might just talk
00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:45.990
a bit more about well there's good
00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.149
flexibility or or things like that. So
00:20:48.159 --> 00:20:49.430
not looking at those fundamentals
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.270
anymore, but you know we do this well or
00:20:53.280 --> 00:20:56.310
you know this oneoff isolated initiative
00:20:56.320 --> 00:21:00.070
or or perk things like that. M so we
00:21:00.080 --> 00:21:02.630
spoke about trust um we spoke about
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.430
two-way communication authenticity and
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.230
and also consistency in terms of the way
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:09.830
that things are done in terms of uh the
00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:11.990
foundations for a for a for a culture of
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.630
well-being. So thinking about
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:17.190
consistency and I guess the gaps in
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.149
people's experience, you know,
00:21:20.159 --> 00:21:22.470
organizations may have a strong
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.029
well-being strategy, but obviously
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.630
employees don't experience an
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:28.549
organization only through its policies.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:29.830
It's experienced through individual
00:21:29.840 --> 00:21:31.430
managers, teams, and day-to-day
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.710
decisions. And
00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.870
in some cases, two people working for
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.789
the same employer in practice can
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.390
experience two very different
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.630
workplaces. I I don't know how this
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:43.990
maybe shows up in some of the comments
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:45.510
from the the organizations that you work
00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:47.430
with, but I guess the question here is
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.630
how should organizations respond when
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.870
their overall score looks healthy, but
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.789
for one or more groups within that
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.870
organization, it it doesn't.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:58.789
>> Yeah. I mean, that's a very common
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.029
finding. This is uh something we very
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.110
often see when we start looking at u an
00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:05.430
organization's results. Um and and we
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.270
take that kind of demographic side of
00:22:07.280 --> 00:22:08.630
things, looking at variance across
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:10.310
different groups, we take that very
00:22:10.320 --> 00:22:12.310
seriously. That's a kind of fundamental
00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:14.470
tenet of our our philosophy really. We
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.310
call it the for all approach. So it
00:22:16.320 --> 00:22:17.669
needs to be a great place to work for
00:22:17.679 --> 00:22:20.310
all regardless of seniority, role,
00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:21.750
demographic, characteristics,
00:22:21.760 --> 00:22:23.350
background. You can't have one kind of
00:22:23.360 --> 00:22:24.950
privileged group experiencing that, but
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:27.750
the others not. Um so we very much
00:22:27.760 --> 00:22:29.110
factor that in. That's why we measure
00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.270
core demographics on every survey. Okay?
00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:32.870
>> And then clients can add their own
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.190
departmental breakdowns for example um
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.350
as well. But we also factor that into
00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:38.870
our list algorithm. So when we publish
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:40.470
the best workplaces, it's not just the
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:41.830
highest scores, it's those with the
00:22:41.840 --> 00:22:43.909
highest consistency of score across
00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:46.149
their employee population. So we want to
00:22:46.159 --> 00:22:48.789
see that positive experience applied for
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:49.270
all.
00:22:49.280 --> 00:22:49.909
>> Okay.
00:22:49.919 --> 00:22:52.230
>> Um back to your question then when we
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:54.710
see a a case where you know the overall
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.230
average is high and that's the problem
00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.750
with averages, right? They they hide
00:22:57.760 --> 00:22:59.190
serious fluctuations.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.430
>> Um that's why we do delve into those
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.870
demographics. We see what different um
00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.950
core demographics but also departments
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.070
tenure groups um managerial levels what
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:11.669
what they're experiencing and where
00:23:11.679 --> 00:23:13.909
there are these gaps then we have to
00:23:13.919 --> 00:23:15.190
change the approach. we have to look
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.510
more granular, more bottom up, do a bit
00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:19.510
of a deep dive into one, let's say,
00:23:19.520 --> 00:23:21.830
team. Um, sometimes it's very obvious,
00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:23.430
you know, they've had a restructure.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.270
They had a lever who wasn't replaced.
00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:26.870
Everyone knows they're super stretched
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:28.870
right now or they're having some very
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.110
specific conflict. Uh, for example,
00:23:31.120 --> 00:23:32.710
sometimes it's less clear and and
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.149
especially in those cases, that's where
00:23:34.159 --> 00:23:36.070
we really urge them to to dig a bit
00:23:36.080 --> 00:23:38.230
deeper, conduct some kind of listening
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.149
session with them or or some oneto ones.
00:23:40.159 --> 00:23:41.590
Let's understand what's going on there.
00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:43.110
what's what's the root cause of the
00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:45.350
issue in in that particular pocket and
00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:47.190
only once you feel you understand that
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.029
root cause do you start to action plan
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:51.510
there's this kind of urge I think among
00:23:51.520 --> 00:23:53.590
leaders and managers to to jump to the
00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:55.669
action planning prematurely before they
00:23:55.679 --> 00:23:58.070
even understand or peel it back a few
00:23:58.080 --> 00:23:59.590
layers and then you're often treating
00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:02.149
the symptoms of an issue or maybe
00:24:02.159 --> 00:24:04.230
something unrelated even um and that's a
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:06.149
waste of resources so don't rush that
00:24:06.159 --> 00:24:09.510
process reflect dig deeper understand
00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:10.789
that's why listening is such an
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:12.070
important leader leadership behavior.
00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:12.630
>> Absolutely.
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.149
>> And then we can action plan
00:24:14.159 --> 00:24:15.269
>> down the line.
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.070
>> Okay. So, let's just say um you know
00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:21.590
there's an organization X does uh the
00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:23.750
survey and you know their average is
00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:25.590
good uh but you know like we've just
00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:27.190
said there's a there's a quite a big
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.430
variance across either a department or
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.269
levels of seniority or for a particular
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:32.870
demographic.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.669
Um and they kind of have to go through
00:24:35.679 --> 00:24:37.590
this process. You dig a bit deeper. You
00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:38.950
get a bit more granular. you kind of
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:40.710
learn the backstory of who who's had a
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.750
restructure, leadership change, etc. Um,
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:46.149
and that then gives the organization the
00:24:46.159 --> 00:24:47.830
precedent to dig a bit deeper, start
00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:49.190
listening and understanding and actually
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:50.549
make the changes that are going to
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.510
improve people's experience. So my
00:24:53.520 --> 00:24:56.630
question is, what does great place to
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.590
work, what have you learned over the
00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:01.750
years from the organizations that have
00:25:01.760 --> 00:25:03.830
significantly improved as a result of
00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:05.590
that process? Because we mentioned about
00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:06.950
the creme de la creme, we mentioned
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:08.149
about the national average, but what
00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:09.590
about the people that have, you know,
00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:11.590
started been on a bit of a journey,
00:25:11.600 --> 00:25:12.630
let's say. Yeah.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.470
>> What what do you learn from those guys?
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:15.990
What stands out to you? I'm sure it's a
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:16.870
lot that you learn, but yeah. What would
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:18.390
you say stands out? Sorry.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.510
>> Um, you know, that our trust our
00:25:21.520 --> 00:25:23.269
process, it it works. I guess the ones
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:24.630
where we're seeing, you know, dramatic
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:26.149
improvements because they listened to us
00:25:26.159 --> 00:25:27.830
the previous year, for example. It's
00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:30.230
it's a nice uh bit of evidence that, you
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:32.630
know, our our process does does work. If
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.269
you uh take the data at face value even
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:37.830
when it's damning or you know not not
00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:38.230
great
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:39.110
>> especially when it's daming
00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:40.149
>> especially when it's damning. Yeah.
00:25:40.159 --> 00:25:42.470
Exactly. Um and you you put in the work,
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:43.750
you listen, you understand people's
00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:46.149
experiences. Um you you make changes
00:25:46.159 --> 00:25:49.750
based on that then you can and will see
00:25:49.760 --> 00:25:51.510
rewards next year in in people's
00:25:51.520 --> 00:25:53.350
experiences. Um, and I think those are
00:25:53.360 --> 00:25:55.990
the most humbling kind of sessions I've
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.909
had or or my favorite most kind of
00:25:57.919 --> 00:25:59.830
inspiring, heartwarming sessions with
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:02.230
execs where, you know, I present them
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.029
with pretty bad uh to be honest results
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:07.110
and it it is personal for them because a
00:26:07.120 --> 00:26:08.070
lot of our statements are about
00:26:08.080 --> 00:26:09.350
leadership. So, this is, you know,
00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:11.269
people are saying they don't trust you
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:13.350
um or they don't think you're, you know,
00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:16.070
ethical or you don't have the embody the
00:26:16.080 --> 00:26:17.029
best characteristics of the
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.190
organization, this kind of thing. Um,
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:21.350
and they just take it at face value.
00:26:21.360 --> 00:26:22.549
They don't get defensive. They don't
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.110
make excuses. Uh when a chief exec says
00:26:25.120 --> 00:26:26.789
something like, "Okay guys, we didn't
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.269
get it right this time." Clearly, um we
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.669
have some work to do. Uh so let's roll
00:26:31.679 --> 00:26:33.430
up our sleeves and and let's start doing
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:35.269
that work. I think that is the best
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:37.430
attitude. So honestly, it's a it's an
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:39.110
attitudinal thing. I think that that
00:26:39.120 --> 00:26:41.110
I've learned from those organizations.
00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:42.789
Um and that's the best place to start.
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:44.549
If leaders have that attitude, then I I
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:46.149
have faith in them that that things will
00:26:46.159 --> 00:26:47.430
improve and they're going to go about it
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:48.390
the right way.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.190
>> Okay. So let's reverse that one and talk
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.909
about when the attitude isn't so great.
00:26:53.919 --> 00:26:54.149
>> Yeah.
00:26:54.159 --> 00:26:55.909
>> How how do you overcome? Let's say you
00:26:55.919 --> 00:26:57.510
present them with the data. It doesn't
00:26:57.520 --> 00:26:59.110
look good. It feels quite personal
00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:01.990
because it's leaders leadership centric
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.669
in terms of the comments that people are
00:27:03.679 --> 00:27:04.789
making.
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.029
>> Um and you're presenting this as raw
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:08.710
data but actually the leadership team
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.950
for whatever reason doesn't quite want
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.750
to accept it. How how do you kind of
00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:15.110
what what's the process and how does
00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:17.190
that conversation go?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.830
Yeah, I mean that does happen in uh
00:27:19.840 --> 00:27:22.390
quite a few cases. Uh I mean there
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.350
there's no real kind of golden solution
00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:27.190
to that because you can lead a horse to
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.070
water but you can't make a drink. So you
00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:32.149
know it's not our job to actually do the
00:27:32.159 --> 00:27:34.470
changes. It has to be coming from them
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.710
obviously. So the best thing we can do
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.350
is present ourselves as these uh you
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:41.669
know impartial third party messengers of
00:27:41.679 --> 00:27:43.590
what your people are trying to tell you
00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:46.149
and argue that that this is in your best
00:27:46.159 --> 00:27:47.669
interest because you know I'm not making
00:27:47.679 --> 00:27:49.190
up this data. I'm telling you how your
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:50.230
people feel
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.029
>> about you. Um and I will you know give
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:54.789
you my take on where I think you should
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:55.830
focus, where I think you should
00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:58.070
prioritize. I'll guide that discussion.
00:27:58.080 --> 00:27:59.830
But then it has to be on them. They have
00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:01.430
to take ownership of that process.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.430
Otherwise it it won't work. Like I said,
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.750
you can't outsource these things to I
00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:07.909
mean external parties in this case us.
00:28:07.919 --> 00:28:11.269
So yeah, it's not great when when that's
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:12.870
the attitude. I do my best to kind of
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:14.950
convince them in in the session, but um
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:16.389
sometimes you just leave with this
00:28:16.399 --> 00:28:18.230
feeling of, you know, I can see why the
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.389
scores are what they are and I don't
00:28:20.399 --> 00:28:22.230
know if we'll see a change next year,
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:23.510
but
00:28:23.520 --> 00:28:26.149
>> understood. So, so just thinking about
00:28:26.159 --> 00:28:28.549
this theme of consistency, we've been
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.870
well, we've mentioned it a few times.
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.870
You know, it it matters morally because,
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:33.990
you know, people should be able to
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.830
expect a healthy experience regardless
00:28:35.840 --> 00:28:39.029
of their role, identity, or manager. The
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:40.310
research also makes a commercial
00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:42.070
argument that employees in high trust,
00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:44.950
high well-being environments appear to
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.029
appear more likely to stay, adapt, and
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:48.230
perform.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.789
um which
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.630
brings to mind an important distinction
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.110
between showing that well-being matters
00:28:55.120 --> 00:28:56.950
and understanding exactly what the
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.110
evidence allows us to claim.
00:28:59.120 --> 00:29:01.830
>> So with that in mind, what evidence do
00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:03.669
you find most convincing in connecting
00:29:03.679 --> 00:29:05.590
well-being with retention and
00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:08.230
productivity?
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.710
>> Okay. Well, how much time do we have? Uh
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.149
there's a lot of evidence uh out there.
00:29:14.159 --> 00:29:17.510
Sure. Partly ours, partly external. um
00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:19.669
different types of of methodologies and
00:29:19.679 --> 00:29:21.269
sort of study designs and and that's
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.870
really important here I think uh
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:24.549
regarding what you can claim and what
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:25.669
you can't
00:29:25.679 --> 00:29:27.269
>> the the methodology and the design of
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:27.990
it. Yeah.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.870
>> Yes. Okay.
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.230
>> You know that's what brings us sort of
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:31.909
correlation versus causation all that
00:29:31.919 --> 00:29:33.190
kind of thing. So
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:35.510
>> I mean with with our data it's it's all
00:29:35.520 --> 00:29:37.110
cross-sectional. It's it's all survey
00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:39.590
data of course. Um, but we do see
00:29:39.600 --> 00:29:41.510
through running regression models and
00:29:41.520 --> 00:29:43.510
and things like that, we do see for
00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:46.230
example that having a good well-being
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:47.750
experience as measured holistically by
00:29:47.760 --> 00:29:50.710
our well-being index that underpins what
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.029
we call human capacity to perform and
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.789
that's measured through outcomes like
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:56.389
adapting to changes needed for the
00:29:56.399 --> 00:29:57.830
organization success, putting in
00:29:57.840 --> 00:29:59.510
discretionary efforts, so going above
00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:02.789
and beyond um for your organization. We
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:04.549
see that those outcomes are over twice
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.430
as high in organizations that have high
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:08.230
well-being.
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:10.549
>> Well-being index versus ability to per
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:11.430
um perform.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.510
>> Yeah. Wellbeing sort of drives or
00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:17.269
underpins maps onto that ability to
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.430
perform which is sort of adapt to change
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:20.950
which is very important in in today's
00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:22.310
climate. Of course, there's a lot of
00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:23.430
changes going on.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.669
>> Um and that the discretionary effort
00:30:25.679 --> 00:30:27.830
they're willing to to put in more. So we
00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:30.470
can make these kinds of claims from from
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.269
our data. What we don't measure directly
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:35.350
is the the performance side of things.
00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:37.190
So we don't look at we don't measure
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.070
bottom line. We cannot directly map how
00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:41.590
people feel about their well-being to to
00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:43.350
things like their profitability or or
00:30:43.360 --> 00:30:45.110
productivity. But luckily we have
00:30:45.120 --> 00:30:47.029
affiliated researchers and independent
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.269
ones who have done that work for us. Uh
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.430
most notably the economist Alex Edmunds
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.830
who studied our best workplaces from
00:30:53.840 --> 00:30:58.070
2001 to 2023 against the Footsie all
00:30:58.080 --> 00:31:00.230
share index. Um and he found that the
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.549
portfolio of best workplaces, they
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.630
provided more than four times the return
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:05.669
of the benchmark.
00:31:05.679 --> 00:31:06.470
>> Wow.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:08.470
>> And then another researcher based at the
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.950
University of Istanbul, he found the
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.070
same kind of thing. He looked at best
00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:15.590
workplaces from 2001 to 2020. Um and he
00:31:15.600 --> 00:31:17.669
also found that they outperformed their
00:31:17.679 --> 00:31:19.590
benchmark with an annualized alpha of
00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:21.830
3.86%.
00:31:21.840 --> 00:31:24.230
So those two longitudinal studies
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:25.909
together, I think, well, they
00:31:25.919 --> 00:31:27.510
corroborate each other. they're showing,
00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:29.590
you know, very similar things. Um, and
00:31:29.600 --> 00:31:31.190
then they are showing that over time,
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.870
having those high trust, high wellbeing
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.430
cultures, they do drive stock market
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.149
performance.
00:31:36.159 --> 00:31:36.470
>> Mhm.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:37.909
>> And then there's external studies as
00:31:37.919 --> 00:31:39.269
well that I find compelling. They're
00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:40.470
coming from places like the the
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.830
well-being research center at the
00:31:41.840 --> 00:31:44.070
University of Oxford and from Harvard.
00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:45.190
They've done, for example,
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.269
cross-sectional studies uh linking
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.950
self-reported well-being measures kind
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.430
of like what we measure to again stock
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.110
market performance. and they are finding
00:31:53.120 --> 00:31:56.710
that high well-being organization rich
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.590
portfolios they do outperform their
00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:01.669
benchmarks. Um and then they've done a
00:32:01.679 --> 00:32:04.230
meta analysis as well. So looking at 340
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:06.389
or so independent studies and they have
00:32:06.399 --> 00:32:09.029
found this strong positive relationship
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:10.950
between job satisfaction which is their
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.750
measure of of well-being um and business
00:32:13.760 --> 00:32:17.110
unit level profitability. So I think any
00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:18.789
one of those really, but especially the
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:20.950
the combo of all of those different
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:22.789
studies and different study designs and
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.710
frameworks, that's quite compelling.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:26.630
>> Yes, very compelling and and hard to
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.870
ignore frankly. On the flip side of
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.590
that, where would you say we should be
00:32:31.600 --> 00:32:34.470
cautious about claiming causation from
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.950
research studies that are out there?
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.789
>> Yeah. Again, that's where methodology
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.190
and and study design is is all
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:44.149
important. Um, we love survey data, of
00:32:44.159 --> 00:32:46.549
course we do, but survey data could
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.950
never make any claims about cause and
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:50.310
effect. It just can't. It's
00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:52.070
cross-sectional. It It's passive looking
00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:55.110
at things at one point in time. Um,
00:32:55.120 --> 00:32:56.870
unlike, you know, other other study
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.669
designs. So, we can make claims that
00:32:59.679 --> 00:33:02.549
things are associated things uh are
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:04.870
correlated with each other like, you
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:06.149
know, the the things I've talked about
00:33:06.159 --> 00:33:08.230
well-being and discretionary efforts or
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.470
adaptiveness to change. We can't say you
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:12.870
know one is causing the other. Um they
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:14.310
might you know they have a mutual
00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:15.590
feedback loop. There might be other
00:33:15.600 --> 00:33:18.630
variables associated just from a a kind
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:19.750
of study design perspective
00:33:19.760 --> 00:33:21.190
methodological framework. We cannot
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:23.669
claim that longitudinal frameworks like
00:33:23.679 --> 00:33:25.830
those uh stock market studies over time
00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:28.149
that I mentioned. They can help support
00:33:28.159 --> 00:33:29.909
causal claims because they are looking
00:33:29.919 --> 00:33:32.710
at an evolution over you know 20 years.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.110
But even they can't strictly make causal
00:33:35.120 --> 00:33:37.029
claims. to to do that you have to have
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.350
an experimental or a quasi experimental
00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:40.630
framework. So you have to be actually
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:42.789
manipulating variables, right? And
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:43.990
that's really hard to do obviously
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.430
because we're talking about a real world
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:47.750
setting, people at work. Uh it's just
00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:49.509
not naturalistic to go in there and and
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.190
manipulate things in a way that feels
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:52.950
natural and and not have people behave
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:53.909
differently.
00:33:53.919 --> 00:33:55.830
>> Um but there is actually one that I've
00:33:55.840 --> 00:33:57.269
recently come across from the same group
00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:58.950
of researchers at the the well-being
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.389
research center at the University of
00:34:00.399 --> 00:34:03.110
Oxford. Um they looked at teles sales
00:34:03.120 --> 00:34:05.750
workers at British Telecom and they
00:34:05.760 --> 00:34:08.790
adapted or manipulated their mood so
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.430
their affect based on visual exposure to
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.869
weather which is just so
00:34:12.879 --> 00:34:14.230
quintessentially British.
00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:15.109
>> Of course it is.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.069
>> Um and they actually found that that
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.430
drove uh a higher sales conversion rate.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:21.829
So,
00:34:21.839 --> 00:34:24.790
>> so what they put uh pictures of sunny
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:27.030
weather on the screens for example one
00:34:27.040 --> 00:34:27.750
group of people and
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:29.750
>> no through actual weather depending what
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:31.109
the conditions were how closely people
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:32.629
were to them. So, I'm expecting things
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:34.629
like, you know, sunny days, rainy days,
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.750
mid gray days. Um, I'm not, you know,
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:39.669
fully familiar with the exact details,
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:40.869
but but something like that visual
00:34:40.879 --> 00:34:43.109
exposure to the actual outdoor weather.
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:46.230
>> Um, and they did find a significant
00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:48.310
relationship with with sales conversion,
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:49.909
but you know, that's a call center.
00:34:49.919 --> 00:34:51.270
That's a very structured task
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:53.270
>> and it's British weather, not exactly a
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:54.790
controllable variable.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:55.430
>> True.
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:55.990
>> Yeah.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.190
>> So, I think we need to be a bit careful
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:59.109
how much we can extrapolate that. Yes.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:00.470
But that's really interesting and and
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.069
for me that was the first quasi
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.310
experimental bit of research that I've
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.430
seen about this particular area. So you
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.670
know happiness or a effect in that case
00:35:09.680 --> 00:35:11.589
>> can seem to actually drive individual
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:12.310
performance.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.550
>> Interesting. And the reason I, you know,
00:35:14.560 --> 00:35:16.310
um, wanted to dig a bit deeper on this
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.550
idea of, uh, you know, research and
00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:20.470
causality is because one of the, I
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.270
guess, the bottlenecks or speed bumps,
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.109
if you like, when it comes to getting
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:26.790
well-being strategies and initiatives
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:28.790
over the line that I see is is the
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.270
ability to be able to kind of translate
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.829
uh, the outcomes in a way that's going
00:35:33.839 --> 00:35:35.270
to be kind of received well in the
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.190
boardroom, you know, with a finance
00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:38.470
director, whoever it might be to
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:40.390
demonstrate ROI is what I'm talking
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.470
about really. And I guess the question
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.270
is, you know, could pressure to
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.390
demonstrate ROI these days potentially
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:50.069
cause employers to almost
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:52.870
instrumentalize uh well-being? That is
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:54.870
to say that they only kind of value it
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.950
um if they can prove that it improves
00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.310
performance.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.550
>> Yeah, I mean of course it could. Um and
00:36:00.560 --> 00:36:02.550
I think that's definitely happening out
00:36:02.560 --> 00:36:04.870
there. uh especially in maybe certain
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.670
industries in certain types of leaders
00:36:07.680 --> 00:36:10.550
in certain cost cutting contexts let's
00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:13.510
say um and a focus on profitability and
00:36:13.520 --> 00:36:15.589
ROI is not a bad thing don't get me
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:17.990
wrong businesses have to of course yes
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.150
>> um so so that's not a a bad thing I
00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:21.510
don't want to kind of diss that
00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:22.790
perspective at all of course it
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.790
shouldn't be a hardline tunnel vision of
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:26.790
wanting to demonstrate the numbers in
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:28.470
order to treat people well there is such
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.710
a thing as a as duty of care you could
00:36:30.720 --> 00:36:32.390
argue that there shouldn't have to be a
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.230
business case for well-being. Again,
00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:35.829
depending a bit what you're doing around
00:36:35.839 --> 00:36:37.750
well-being. So, I mean, I can see that
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.750
it it could be very hard to demonstrate
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:42.150
the ROI of, let's say, training up a
00:36:42.160 --> 00:36:44.470
cohort of of mental health first aers
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:47.190
or, you know, launching some new
00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:49.589
wellness subscription service or a new
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.470
EIP or flexible benefits package or
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.190
something like that. Um, but then I'd
00:36:55.200 --> 00:36:56.710
argue that the people who are having
00:36:56.720 --> 00:36:58.150
those conversations and who are worried
00:36:58.160 --> 00:37:00.550
about ROI probably aren't doing the
00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:02.790
right things around well-being in the
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:05.190
first place because, you know, like I
00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:06.870
was saying earlier, the the the right
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.069
things, the best things, the most
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.829
fundamental things are the ones that are
00:37:09.839 --> 00:37:11.910
so integrated anyway into your
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.470
workflows, relationships, processes,
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.790
systems that they don't seem to be
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:18.870
wellness or well-being initiatives at
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.310
all. They're just blended into the
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.630
fabric of the organization. So if you're
00:37:22.640 --> 00:37:24.310
doing the right things, you're probably
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:26.470
not thinking about the ROI of an
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:29.190
initiative in in itself.
00:37:29.200 --> 00:37:31.109
>> And you mentioned
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.430
I don't know specifically like an EAP or
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:35.270
a new app or I don't know mental health
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.870
first date though. What would you say
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.950
from your experience because I'm I've
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:40.710
been an MHFA I don't know if you know an
00:37:40.720 --> 00:37:41.910
MHFA instructor.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:43.750
>> Oh, not an instructor, just a first.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.589
>> Yeah. So I've been an MHF instructor for
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:48.310
um several years now. um trained
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:50.310
hundreds if not thousands of managers um
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.950
and well employees up and down the UK.
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:54.950
>> Um I really enjoy it.
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.430
>> But to your point about you know let's
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.470
say an organization is trying to get
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.950
that signed off to train a cohort and
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.670
ROI is um you know potentially something
00:38:05.680 --> 00:38:08.790
they're thinking of um using to get it
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:10.470
through or get it signed off. What would
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:11.670
you say is the the biggest challenge
00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:13.510
around something like that in the
00:38:13.520 --> 00:38:15.190
boardroom?
00:38:15.200 --> 00:38:17.109
Yeah, I mean I maybe first just want to
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:18.470
clarify that I don't think there's
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:19.829
anything wrong with those initiatives
00:38:19.839 --> 00:38:21.349
anyway. I'm a mental health first
00:38:21.359 --> 00:38:23.670
myself. I love the the benefits we offer
00:38:23.680 --> 00:38:25.910
around well being a great place work um
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.829
UK there's absolutely nothing wrong with
00:38:27.839 --> 00:38:29.910
them and they can provide great value to
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:32.150
people. I think the problem is where
00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:35.190
they exist in isolation and the the kind
00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:37.030
of culture doesn't. So they're not built
00:38:37.040 --> 00:38:39.510
on this foundation. I think they are
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:41.750
amazing if they are brought in as kind
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.310
of further ways to show a commitment to
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:45.910
mental health to to well-being to
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:47.750
whatever because there is already that
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.430
underlying culture around it. Leadership
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.109
really buys in they've thought about
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.109
sort of job design resourcing kind of
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.829
basic things. People are good with their
00:38:55.839 --> 00:38:57.829
sort of underlying well-being. Now let's
00:38:57.839 --> 00:38:59.270
go one step further and demonstrate it
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.349
with these initiatives. The problem
00:39:01.359 --> 00:39:02.870
comes in when they're used as sort of
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.670
plasters to compensate for a lack of
00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:07.510
those deeper things, which they they
00:39:07.520 --> 00:39:08.790
very often are. And they can come across
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:11.190
very gimmicky like token gestures. We
00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:12.630
see that all the time in comments as
00:39:12.640 --> 00:39:14.790
well. So So that's my problem with them.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.630
I'm not dissing the actual initiatives
00:39:16.640 --> 00:39:18.550
themselves because I'm also a big big
00:39:18.560 --> 00:39:19.670
fan of them.
00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:21.510
>> Um
00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:23.670
>> yeah. Yeah. No, and it it didn't come
00:39:23.680 --> 00:39:25.190
across that way. I just thought it was
00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:27.349
um it's just an interesting observation
00:39:27.359 --> 00:39:31.109
because like you say if um if we get to
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:33.349
the point where it's we're we're kind of
00:39:33.359 --> 00:39:36.069
worrying about the ROI typically um
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:38.230
actually there's
00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:41.589
um underneath that not the kind of
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:45.510
behaviors structures um culture in place
00:39:45.520 --> 00:39:47.750
>> um whereby you know well-being feels
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:50.470
like it's just something implicit um and
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:52.630
it's I guess in terms of where things
00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:54.550
like that fail whether it's an EAP MHFA
00:39:54.560 --> 00:39:55.829
or any other kind of standalone
00:39:55.839 --> 00:39:57.430
well-being initiative that that's where
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.150
it can feel quite gimmicky and um almost
00:40:00.160 --> 00:40:02.950
well short-term and um makes it even
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:04.470
harder to kind of for for people to kind
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.390
of trust and believe in it, right?
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.069
>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It doesn't sort
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:10.310
of match what the organization is is
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.470
saying or or what they're kind of the
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:13.910
values they're radiating otherwise
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:15.910
around it. It's just sort of done in
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.230
place of something kind of deeper. It
00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:21.109
can feel sort of like an easy fix, quick
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.829
win. Um but in reality, you know, it
00:40:23.839 --> 00:40:25.430
it's even maybe going to have the
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.630
opposite effect. It will frustrate
00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:28.630
people. For example, the classic one is
00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:30.790
they're bringing in um sort of stress
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:33.109
awareness trainers or or inspirational
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.870
speakers around that, but actually
00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:36.550
people are just stretched so thin
00:40:36.560 --> 00:40:38.950
because basic kind of resourcing hasn't
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:40.470
been paid attention to. So that will
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:41.270
just annoy people.
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:42.790
>> It's stressing people out because
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.109
actually by attending the workshop, it's
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.829
adding more to their workload. Yeah.
00:40:47.839 --> 00:40:49.990
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I've I've been called
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:51.670
into organizations where that has been
00:40:51.680 --> 00:40:52.710
the case.
00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:54.710
>> Um so yeah, I can can definitely relate
00:40:54.720 --> 00:40:56.550
to that one. Okay. So then before
00:40:56.560 --> 00:40:58.630
commissioning um another well-being
00:40:58.640 --> 00:41:00.950
initiative, what should an employer
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:03.349
examine within its own culture, existing
00:41:03.359 --> 00:41:04.790
culture,
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.510
>> lots of things, everything that we've
00:41:07.520 --> 00:41:10.790
spoken about. Sure. basically uh I mean
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:13.030
nine times out of 10 I think if there is
00:41:13.040 --> 00:41:14.550
let's say a wellbeing issue or a
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.670
challenge um the answer is likely going
00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:20.950
to lie in something to do with with job
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.870
design with I mean so often it is
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:25.030
resourcing processes and systems it's so
00:41:25.040 --> 00:41:26.950
boring but very often that that that is
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:28.470
what's going to have the biggest impact
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:30.950
on people's day-to-day um or the work
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:34.630
environment uh the the culture um the
00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:36.790
relationships levels of psychological
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:40.150
safety these kinds of things. Um, if
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:41.990
you've kind of looked into those things
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.829
and you find that you're kind of doing
00:41:43.839 --> 00:41:46.790
those well, uh, then maybe there is, you
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:48.230
know, that's the time and space to to
00:41:48.240 --> 00:41:49.349
look into commissioning and you
00:41:49.359 --> 00:41:50.630
wellbeing initiative, especially if
00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:53.030
you're seeing in in maybe data, survey
00:41:53.040 --> 00:41:54.710
data, for example, that there is this
00:41:54.720 --> 00:41:57.030
sort of demand for or gap around
00:41:57.040 --> 00:41:58.550
something very specific, people would
00:41:58.560 --> 00:42:00.790
like a little bit more help, I don't
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.710
know, nudging them to get physically
00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:04.790
active or or with their mental health or
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.309
with their financial well-being or, you
00:42:06.319 --> 00:42:07.750
know, there's so many different
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:09.270
then then that's probably the right time
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:11.190
to do it. Like I said, for leadership to
00:42:11.200 --> 00:42:13.190
sort of show their commitment to
00:42:13.200 --> 00:42:14.550
something that they're already doing in
00:42:14.560 --> 00:42:16.790
these more fundamental ways
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:17.990
>> because it is at the end of the day,
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.510
it's a nice to have. Those are things
00:42:19.520 --> 00:42:21.190
that help with your personal health and
00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:22.950
your personal well-being. Nothing to do
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:24.710
with your actual job.
00:42:24.720 --> 00:42:26.630
>> So, they can help you feel better about
00:42:26.640 --> 00:42:29.270
your finances, your physical health,
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.510
your mental health, but not your
00:42:31.520 --> 00:42:33.270
well-being as an employee doing the job
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:34.790
that you're doing. That's their first
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:36.390
responsibility. Let's not forget that.
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:36.950
Sure.
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:38.790
>> The the rest comes later once that is
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:40.950
taken care of I would say.
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:43.430
>> So working environment, psychological
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.270
safety,
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:49.030
>> um employee voice and also leadership
00:42:49.040 --> 00:42:50.470
buying as well. These are some of the
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.309
things that should be considered before
00:42:52.319 --> 00:42:55.030
we say oh let's let's get a an external
00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:56.710
trainer in or do a workshop or
00:42:56.720 --> 00:42:58.710
commission a new app, for example.
00:42:58.720 --> 00:43:00.630
>> Yeah, definitely. I think those are some
00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:03.270
of the the main bases to yes to to hit.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:04.550
So there's the things that are around
00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:06.309
people's individual jobs and that
00:43:06.319 --> 00:43:08.790
probably includes the kind of purpose um
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:10.550
part as well. Then there's the wider
00:43:10.560 --> 00:43:12.630
work environment, leadership,
00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:15.430
communication, all these things um and
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:16.870
relationships and and people's sort of
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:18.390
line manager relationships of course
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:19.990
they're they're all important as as
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:20.710
well.
00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:23.270
>> Um and then above and beyond that again
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:27.349
if there's a specific need or demand for
00:43:27.359 --> 00:43:29.349
or you know let's not take shots in the
00:43:29.359 --> 00:43:32.550
dark. let's let's you know address a an
00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:35.349
issue or um something people are talking
00:43:35.359 --> 00:43:37.109
about or something that makes sense not
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.430
just sort of let's find a random
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:40.870
initiative and and you know hope that
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:42.550
does something because you know it's a
00:43:42.560 --> 00:43:43.990
>> because it's a date on a calendar at
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:44.309
some point
00:43:44.319 --> 00:43:46.069
>> exactly yeah or you know shout about
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:47.670
this national awareness day because it
00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:49.510
probably looks good that that we do is a
00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:51.670
little bit you know it's giving tickboxy
00:43:51.680 --> 00:43:54.550
it's giving PR campaign that's a tagline
00:43:54.560 --> 00:43:56.790
>> interesting so we started this
00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:58.550
conversation asking the question what
00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:00.710
does workplace place well-being actually
00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:03.589
feel like? Um, and I'd like to get, I
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:05.349
guess, definitive on this one. So, you
00:44:05.359 --> 00:44:06.790
know, if an organization were getting
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:07.990
workplace well-being right, you know,
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:09.910
not simply in its policies or survey
00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:11.750
results, um, you know, but in
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.510
everybody's or in people's everyday
00:44:13.520 --> 00:44:15.270
experience, what would you hope
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.030
employees would say that their work
00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:18.069
would feel like?
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:19.670
>> Yeah. Uh, I think the answer is partly
00:44:19.680 --> 00:44:21.589
in how you said the question. It's in
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:23.349
what work feels like, not what
00:44:23.359 --> 00:44:25.670
well-being feels like, because they are
00:44:25.680 --> 00:44:27.829
indistinguishable from each other
00:44:27.839 --> 00:44:29.589
really. So, you'd never have a situation
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:31.510
where where someone says when they're
00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:33.990
talking about their experience um their
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:35.109
working experience, they'd say, you
00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:36.950
know, the job is whatever, but they do
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:38.390
well being really well. You know, that's
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.790
why I stay there. Something like that.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.390
In my mind, that statement doesn't even
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:44.470
make sense to to begin with because job
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.150
and purpose and all that is such a big
00:44:46.160 --> 00:44:48.390
part of of well-being. Um those people
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:50.230
are probably thinking about flexible
00:44:50.240 --> 00:44:52.710
work arrangements or again individual
00:44:52.720 --> 00:44:55.030
initiatives that that organization is
00:44:55.040 --> 00:44:56.950
doing. Uh but to answer your question,
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:59.430
what does work feel like? I would hope
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.470
people feel that work feels meaningful
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.510
and challenging but well supported to
00:45:05.520 --> 00:45:08.710
meet those challenges and job demands.
00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:10.230
Um
00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:13.990
probably collaborative and empowered but
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.150
ultimately probably most importantly uh
00:45:16.160 --> 00:45:20.069
just enjoyable really. Um that it's not
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:22.710
a kind of detractor from your overall
00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:24.309
well-being, your life satisfaction.
00:45:24.319 --> 00:45:26.630
You're not a weekend warrior. You're
00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:28.390
not, you know, waiting for 5:00 or
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:29.510
living for the weekends, that kind of
00:45:29.520 --> 00:45:29.910
thing.
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:30.309
>> Sure.
00:45:30.319 --> 00:45:33.349
>> But that work is a fundamental
00:45:33.359 --> 00:45:35.190
contributor to your overall life
00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:36.710
satisfaction.
00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:39.349
>> Well said, Sarah. It's been an absolute
00:45:39.359 --> 00:45:40.630
pleasure. Thanks for joining the show.
00:45:40.640 --> 00:45:42.870
>> Thank you so much for having me.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:44.390
>> This has been Wellbeing Talk with
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:46.550
myself, Matt Balffor, your guide to all
00:45:46.560 --> 00:45:48.710
things mental health in the workplace.
00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:50.390
Be sure to subscribe to the Let's Go
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:51.829
Wellbeing YouTube channel, and we'll
00:45:51.839 --> 00:45:55.440
connect on the next episode.