Inside a conductorless orchestra, with Alexander Scheirle

WEBVTT
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Everyone has a say, everyone has authority, everyone has agency, everyone has responsibility and ownership.
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You look at a school of fish and there's not one fish that leads it, that swims in front.
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It's like they all just do the same.
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If someone is just, like, bringing out their soul- Yeah … then it pulls you in, so there's no secrets in what we do.
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Meet Alexander Scheirle, a musician and executive director of a unique 50-year-old conductorless orchestra.
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When you hear orchestra with no conductor, you might jump towards a picture of absolute chaos or an organization where shared decision-making slows things down.
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Alexander shares it's neither of these binaries.
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During our conversation, he shares how the orchestra's shared governance model means members look across the aisle for leadership, not top-down, ways they rotate players to boost shared decisions and transparency, and embrace their model needs extra-long rehearsals and why it's worth it.
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This is episode seven, season two of Web of Us podcast.
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I'm your host Claire, and here's Alexander on how a conductorless orchestra leads itself together.
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Well, it's such a pleasure to connect with you, Alexander.
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Thanks for joining us on the Web of Us.
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My pleasure.
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I was very excited to learn, and I'm very new to the world of orchestras.
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My, my background has a bit of ensemble from the side of dance and my work in more of the collective space.
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But really curious to hear first a little bit about your journey, if you'd share kind of how you found yourself in the world of orchestras.
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What was your, your starting point for that, that passion and expression?
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Yeah.
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So well, thanks for reaching out and connecting.
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I think this is super exciting.
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And I'm always happy to talk about Orpheus because it's just such a unique kind of animal in our, in our industry and, and, and kind of a influencer really, if you will.
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Not just for our industry, but also, you know, we talk a lot to companies from different industries, you know, how we do things, what they can learn, and what they could adopt from the style.
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But back to me, I was, I grew up in a, in a musical household and learned to play an instrument, the cello, early on, and went to a music college and became a professional cellist.
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But it's, it was more like by accident or outside force, I would say, because I, I just became good at playing the cello, and everyone said, "Well, you have to become a professional cellist" even though I was like, "I don't know.
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I don't know if that's what I want." Do I?
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Yeah, because I, you know, I love music and, and I always tell people that the best part of my job with Orpheus is that I get to listen to all these concerts.
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But I don't have to be on stage necessarily, and I, I mean, that's true for me in the administration as well.
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And so slowly I went into, into the administrative side and I ended up in Germany.
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I was born and raised in Germany, so I ended up with the Bavarian Chamber Philharmonic and became their artistic and executive director for a number of years.
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And then I moved to the US and took over Festival in Colorado and, and then finally Orpheus, and I've been with Orpheus for 10 years, and I'm still enjoying it very much.
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Yes, I guess I'm the chief executive of the orchestra, so you have to be out there and, you know, talk to people, be the face of the orchestra.
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But it's not my, it's not my… I, I, I'd like to be an introvert.
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I think I am.
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And so, you know, being out there is actually a challenge for me, but I, I mean, I can do it obviously, and I, you know, happily do it, but I'd rather be in a corner and read a book.
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Not always possible.
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That's relatable.
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But in any case, it's, you know, it, yeah, it helps me with Orpheus and, you know, when I came to Orpheus, I was the fourth executive director in five years for the organization.
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And I think the, the reason why I've been staying so long and s- and enjoying it for so long is because we are almost like a commune here.
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You know, we have like this, this shared leadership.
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We have, like, input from all sides, and it's not like my way or the highway.
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And, you know, if I were that kind of guide and, or person, then it wouldn't work, and I think that was one of the reasons why it hasn't worked for many people be- before me because, you know, if you wanna be the one on stage and-
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I'm excited to unpack that with you.
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There's lots of threads within that, but I, I did have that reflection when I first learned about Orpheus Chamber Chor- Orchestra and learning about how you describe yourself as a, an experiment in music democracy, and that how your sound is defined by the relationships between the people in- involved.
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And I didn't even know who, who to interview, like if, who is in charge and how do you think about power and structure.
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And so I'm, I'm curious from your lens, both as a, as a musician yourself and a practitioner in these different spaces, as you come into groups of, of artists, what do you notice at first?
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Are you looking for dynamics?
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Are you sensing energy?
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How do you step into those spaces?
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I mean, it's, it's very, it's… You know, if you go to orchestra rehearsals in general, it's a very different dynamic, and I've, I've experienced it both as a musician as well as an observer or being on the other side, I mean, on the administration.
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So maybe I should, I should say that I'm not sitting in a cello section.
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I'm not sitting in a violin section currently.
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Being with a shared governed orchestra means that, you know, you have, yes, you see it and you, you walk into a rehearsal and you sense certain things.
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Obviously, you observe.
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And Orpheus is very different from other orchestras because once you have a conductor, there's a completely different dynamic.
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Everyone is, like, looking to the conductor for advice, for direction, for… And that, and that, I mean, in, in every aspect of, of the artistic decision-making.
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I mean, it's basically, I mean, if you will, it's like a very, very vertical hierarchy, and maybe one of the strongest that I know of any business or any industry, I have to say.
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Because, I mean, if you ever have reser- have… If you ever have been able to sit in at a rehearsal with a traditional symphony orchestra, you, you will notice that there's no dialogue in the traditional sense.
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It's not that the conductor says something and s- someone from the orchestra would respond to that verbally.
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Like, the conductor would say,"Let's play this passage faster," and somebody from the orchestra would say, "Well, I don't think so.
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Well, maybe we should try it slower." Okay.
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Yeah.
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That which just doesn't happen.
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So it's like a very different dynamic.
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At Orpheus, it's, it's more… And I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way.
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It's more alive because there's a different dialogue.
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It's more communication.
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And it doesn't have to be just verbally, but, like, the eye contact or the body movement or the… Like, how everyone moves almost like a school of fish.
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Mm-hmm.
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And, and without a leader, right?
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I mean, you, you look at a school of fish and there's not one fish that leads it, that swims in front.
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It's like they all just do the same.
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And the same is true for, for Orpheus versus a conducted orchestra.
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And it doesn't matter which one, and I'm, I'm not saying one is better than the other.
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It's just completely different.
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It's a different philosophy and, and it's also not working for everyone.
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Like, you, you need different personnel to do it.
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And I, I remember talking To someone, I worked at a company after I gave a talk somewhere, and he said, "Well, we could never do that in our company." And I says, "It depends on the people you have.
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You can't just switch from one model to the other." In Orpheus, I'm sure they had their issues 50 years ago too, you know, that some people just couldn't do it and they left.
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But the ones that stayed, and we have, we still have, like, a handful of people that have been there from the very beginning, they are able to preserve the spirit and it's, like, still the same, and that's really amazing.
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It's like, it's a completely different thing.
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Again, and you need the right people, and that's true for the administration too.
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You can't have someone that does not fit into all that, that-
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Mm-hmm.
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And I'm hearing there's a very intentional approach to governance as well.
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Like, who's making decisions, what kinds of decisions, how much transparency is there between different types of decisions.
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Curious what even, when you think and use the word governance, like, what all is part of that space?
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Yeah.
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So the way we are structured is we have a board, which basically the governance board over, you know, fiduciary issues and so forth, you know, any board would be.
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But we have three of our musicians sit on this board for a term of three years.
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Then we have our administration, and we have three artistic directors.
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So three artistic directors are members of the musician body, and they're being elected by the musicians, and they become members of the administration for three years also.
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And so they, these three artistic directors, together with myself and two of my colleagues on the administration, we talk about all things like artistic personnel, programming, and those kind of things.
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So it's always shared.
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I mean, we're not… Some people describe us as self-governed, that I wouldn't say that.
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We're a shared governed organization.
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So, so, so we're very intertwined, and it's unusual.
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I mean, it's unusual that musicians would sit on a board.
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Some organizations do it, I've, I've heard about it, but it's unusual.
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And also that musicians become member of the administration.
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Which I really can appreciate also that they sit on the board because, and that's to answer the other part of your question, there's a lot of transparency because what you discuss at board meetings is, like, I mean, that's like deep dive, like financials and, you know, fundraising, all these kind of things and, and audit results, and they know about that, and they communicate it with the musician body.
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So there's no secrets-
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Mm… Alexander Scheirle: in what we do.
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Sounds very collective and collaborative.
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I'm curious also, like, when does it feel messy, and hard, and too many cooks in the kitchen, too many people making the decision?
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Or have you, over time, learned how to flow through the style of decision-making?
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So it's not that we don't have a hierarchy.
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Like, the artistic directors that I just mentioned, the three of them, they have three-year terms, staggered terms, so every year we get a different person unless the- the existing one, the current one re-ups or gets reelected so that then that person might stay for six years or so.
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And they act as kind of spokespeople for the orchestra and also decision-makers for the orchestra.
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But they also solicit feedback, like cur- all, all the time, input, feedback, brainstorming from the musicians.
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So but they're like, they're the speakers for the orchestra.
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And, you know, I'm the chief executive for the orchestra, but I, I… you know, we don't use these job titles internally.
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It's, I mean, yes, at the end of the day, I have the final say about things operationally or administratively, but I would never make a decision without having s- sought input from either, you know, depending on what the issue is.
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So, so yes, it become messy at times, like too many cooks in the kitchen, as you phrased it, but, you know, democracy is always messy, but you have more ownership and more responsibility on many shoulders, and I think that's healthier, at least from what I can see.
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You know, sometimes I'm, I'm overruled on things and, and that's totally fine, unless it's like something where I'm like, "Well, let's, let's run this by the board too." Unless it's not… Claire Wathen: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well- Well,
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but that's where your judgment and expertise comes in
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as well.
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Right.
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Of course, that comes in, yes.
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But I… it's just you… I, I guess it's a personnel question too.
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I mean, you have to, you have to be able to also let things go- Mm … sometimes.
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Mm-hmm.
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If we circle back to, let's say on the artistic side, because I, I don't… you know, I'm, I'm talking a lot about the administration, but get- can it get messy in rehearsals?
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Yes, it can because, you know, I mean, you have five orchestras playing Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
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They all sound different, but they all sound great, right?
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So you can have different approaches to the same piece.
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So the same is true for us.
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You don't have one person that dic- like a conductor that dictates a style.
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You have a conductor that comes in, they have an idea, they know exactly what they wanna hear.
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They tell the orchestra and the orchestra tries to play exactly as the conductor wants to do it.
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Now, with us, you have 30 people in the rehearsal space, and it's not one person that tells you, so they explore it together.
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And sometimes this exploration can take forever.
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So for instance, we rehearse twice as, as long as traditional orchestras do just so we have to, so we just have the time to, to explore and find out what's the best way for us, what works for us, what are we all, you know, what do we believe as a, you know, as a group that sounds the best.
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But of course, you know, it can get, I wouldn't say, yeah, messy.
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It just can take longer and a lot of discussions and, you know, and… But we have systems in place to curb that in.
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And so it, it doesn't, it's not, uh, like a forever thing, you know?
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It, but sometimes, yeah, and they just take a break or they send someone out in the hall and say,"Listen from the outside and tell us which of the two ways sound better." And then whatever that person say, says, that's the word.
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Um, from one lens you can just apply efficiency to the model and say, "Oh, this takes longer or there's more people involved." But you're also speaking to another lens, which is resiliency of the structure, the depth of the expression, the different types of things that will only emerge when you do invest that time and energy, and that if you do create the structure around it, those containers can open new, new directions, which sounds from the outside like that's part of the essence of what makes this orchestra what it is and what attracts new musicians to come in.
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I am curious, looking at the, the 30 musicians for a moment, how do people come into that group?
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Who decides who's in the group?
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How long do people stay in the group?
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Like, how does that flow?
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Very curious how that works.
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It's a myth-busting question.
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So traditional orchestras, as I'm sure you know, they audition Behind the screen typically.
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So people in the audience or on, on the jury don't know it's, you know, gender or, you know, race or whatever.
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And they just go after, you know, who plays the most perfect or most beautiful, and then that person wins, and that person gets a, typically a three-months trial period, and then become a member of the orchestra.
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So at Orpheus, it's very different.
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We don't audition because the way how a person play… a musician plays is just one, it's just one facet, really.
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I mean, it's, it's, it's equally as important to see how the person behaves on tour, in rehearsal.
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Is the person able to criticize and take criticism?
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How, you know, the personal interactions work and, you know, on tour it's stressful, and that's where you can see how, you know, when, when, when you get hired, how, you know, then the personality comes out.
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Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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You can't hide it, really.
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Yep.
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And so what we do is we invite peop- You know, sometimes we need substitutes, so we invite people to play with us.
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And if, if the musicians like the person, then they invite the, the person back.
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And on tour, and they try them out in different positions as con- You know, if it's violinist, it could be as concertmaster or just as principal somewhere.
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And just try them out in different positions, see how they are on tour.
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And, and that process can take years.
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Years.
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And, and only if they're 100% certain this person could be a lifelong member of the orchestra, then they will hold elections, secret elections, without even telling that person that they, they are on the ballot.
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And then, then first the group, let's just say it's a cellist, then first the cellists get together and suggest that person, and then the strings vote on that person.
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And then it comes to the administration because then we check on not artistic qualifications, that's not our job.
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But, you know, h- how is that person working out when, I don't know, i- is it a difficult person to work with?
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You know, does the person always wanna have, like, separate flights or whatever, or is it late to rehearsals?
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You know, that kind of thing.
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And then if we give the green light, it goes back to the full orchestra, and it's by… it's a majority vote, and if the person gets elected, then they talk to the person, invite them to become a member of Orpheus.
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And once you're a member, you, you are a member.
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They s- typically stay until they retire.
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I mean, sometimes, very rarely, we have people that drop out because they move away or take other jobs that wouldn't allow them to play with Orpheus anymore, but that's, that's a very rare situation, really.
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Do you find the length of how long someone would be in the orchestra, does that shift how they find the processes over time?
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That's hard to say.
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I mean, I- I'm not interfering with the process much because it has, it has worked for them really, and, you know, be- having been a musician myself and, and toured quite extensively, you know, you have a person in the group, and that's true for any industry or any job, I mean, or company, you have a person there that doesn't fit, it just can ruin the entire experience.
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And so I'd rather have them take the time and make sure that person is really who they want and who they think will fit in than, than rush to, you know, or, or, you know, I don't know, make the process more efficient or streamline it.
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It's funny, I talked to a s- a CEO of a, of a public company the-- maybe a year ago or so because he-- we, we were doing a leadership training with them, and I explained, just like I did with you, the entire process of, of onboarding new members and, and then I said, "Well, obviously you cannot do that with your company." He said, "Yes, we can, and we have often temporary workers that we bring in, you know, for certain positions, and that's why we do it because we wanna see how they work." Because you can hide your personality for, you know, a few weeks, a few months, but at some point there's no more hiding and it will come out.
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But sometimes, you know, people come in and they They just don't fit in- into that collective, and you f- you sense that, you know, after a few months, and then you just have to part ways.
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Mm-hmm.
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It just doesn't work.
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Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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And you're speaking to the importance of understanding both the core skill set and expertise, as well as how this person interacts with each other and in the flow.
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Also curious about is there's a model of rotation in, in leadership as well as within the orchestra itself, and curious where the roots of that are and, and what you find in that.
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Yeah.
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I think it has evolved or been developed over the years or decades.
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I, I can't imagine it was by design from the get-go.
00:18:26.611 --> 00:18:28.238
I mean, it was… I mean, think about it.
00:18:28.239 --> 00:18:34.854
It was 1972, and it was like, it was in the midst of the Vietnam War, and it was also the end of the hippie era.
00:18:34.864 --> 00:18:39.538
So it was more like this communal feeling and, you know, our musicians got together.
00:18:39.538 --> 00:18:44.012
They were all college age or, you know, towards the end of their c- college time, and they wanted to get together.
00:18:44.013 --> 00:18:47.145
But it was this anti-establishment feeling, right, here in the US.
00:18:47.166 --> 00:18:51.570
And, and, and it- they wanted to do it differently and just get together and just play, and everyone has a say.
00:18:51.571 --> 00:18:52.858
Everyone has authority.
00:18:52.863 --> 00:18:54.012
Everyone has agency.
00:18:54.013 --> 00:18:56.498
Everyone has responsibility and ownership.
00:18:57.186 --> 00:19:03.670
And then, you know, it- from what I hear, and I've talked to the founder, Julian Pfeiffer, quite extensively.
00:19:04.568 --> 00:19:04.665
Yeah.
00:19:04.671 --> 00:19:05.817
He said it was chaotic.
00:19:06.013 --> 00:19:06.898
It was very chaotic.
00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:08.431
They didn't know, really know what to do.
00:19:08.433 --> 00:19:09.560
They just wanted to make music.
00:19:09.561 --> 00:19:12.330
So I mean, rehearsals would last until the early morning hours.
00:19:12.336 --> 00:19:18.503
And, and, you know, and they would, you know, discuss their business dealings at the local Chinese around the corner.
00:19:18.503 --> 00:19:22.886
You know, it's like very, very rudimentary or, like, basic, I mean, what they had set up.
00:19:22.898 --> 00:19:33.210
But I mean, the driver was make great music together and bring the full potential of everyone to the table, and not being told, you know, what to do and what not to do.
00:19:33.278 --> 00:19:36.606
Everyone should have a voice, and that was what sets them apart.
00:19:36.606 --> 00:19:42.537
So I don't know… I, I, well, I'm pretty sure they didn't have this rotating thing in mind when they started it.
00:19:42.548 --> 00:19:45.974
However, I mean, you have to see, they were all, like, great musicians.
00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:48.371
I mean, Orpheus has incredible musicians.
00:19:48.375 --> 00:19:57.851
So why relegate someone to second violin if the person can also play first violin or can be a concertmaster, can be first clarinet and not just a second clarinet, you know?
00:19:57.871 --> 00:20:02.944
Just give everyone a chance to, to lead and to follow, you know?
00:20:02.944 --> 00:20:12.574
It's b- I mean, there's two different sets of qualification, and that's also why, why when they try out new musicians, they make sure they can, they have all these- They can do both, yeah … these skills.
00:20:12.574 --> 00:20:12.584
Mm-hmm.
00:20:12.595 --> 00:20:13.471
Yeah, they can do both.
00:20:13.471 --> 00:20:13.481
Yeah.
00:20:13.539 --> 00:20:19.012
And so, so I think it was also they didn't wanna have leadership per se, right?
00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:29.074
Because I know a lot of unconducted, non-conducted orchestras that where leadership just is being transferred over to the concertmaster.
00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:31.086
That's typically what happens.
00:20:31.634 --> 00:20:35.517
Amsterdam Sinfonietta, for instance, or you know, others, and they're fabulous.
00:20:35.553 --> 00:20:41.012
But it's like this one person that, that leads the group, and it's, it's, it's no different from a conductor, right?
00:20:41.086 --> 00:20:43.847
But- But orchestras didn't want that.
00:20:43.902 --> 00:20:49.698
They, they learned that they needed to have a hierarchy, but the hierarchy we have is always ever only temporary.
00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:53.259
It's only just for one piece or one concert or whatever they decide.
00:20:53.282 --> 00:20:58.366
So it's always rotating, and I think that keeps it fresh, and it also keeps the personalities in check.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:02.982
Well, and there's the long timeframe here, given that people are coming in as lifetime members.
00:21:03.009 --> 00:21:08.690
So that just creates a whole different, uh, baseline for the relational dynamics to unfold.
00:21:08.750 --> 00:21:25.112
But it is rare to, when you think about all the different ways that groups are coming together, different places, different industries, whatever, however much structure, it's unusual that there isn't actually just one or two people that are really in charge, even if they're not named as such from the outside.
00:21:25.175 --> 00:21:46.285
Do you feel that there are tension points that inevitably come up, and have you designed for those in how either the, the rotating or the group decision-making, or does it feel… Maybe I'm, I'm just curious how much tension really does come up in how decisions are made or, or things as a group?
00:21:46.888 --> 00:21:52.263
Well, on the artistic side, like in the rehearsal, so I have experienced tension here and there.
00:21:52.304 --> 00:22:04.679
It's not a, it's not a, a thing that, that occurs often as where it gets loud or so, but they typically they, they all know… Look, they're all musicians, so they're all very emotional.
00:22:05.209 --> 00:22:09.320
Well, they feel tremendous ownership, and they're proud of the organization.
00:22:09.354 --> 00:22:14.915
And so that of course, you know, I- that creates tension.
00:22:14.923 --> 00:22:26.038
But rather than seeing tension as a negative thing, they see it as a constructive and a positive thing because it's like it shows that a, that the people care actually.
00:22:26.038 --> 00:22:34.571
They, they care about the product and, and, you know, if it gets too heated or so, they just take a break, or they just one of them back sounds and says, "Okay, fine.
00:22:34.816 --> 00:22:36.980
We'll just play it faster." You know, that kind of thing.
00:22:36.980 --> 00:22:56.530
But it's, it's very, very respectful, I have to say, and that's always when we do our leadership training and, you know, people from other industries like listen into a rehearsal, that's always the first thing they bring up, say, "Wow, it's so respectful." I mean, people criticize each other, but it's al- it's always, it's a, it's in a very healthy way.
00:22:56.530 --> 00:22:59.300
It's constructive, and you have to learn that.
00:22:59.300 --> 00:23:02.627
You have to bring that to the table, and it still can boil over and it can,
00:23:02.627 --> 00:23:05.440
00 AM flight and everyone meets at the
00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:07.621
00, obviously, you know.
00:23:08.101 --> 00:23:08.703
You're human.
00:23:08.867 --> 00:23:28.604
But I, I'm glad that you're bringing in the framing of healthy because if I come in to work with a network or a group, one of the first things that I look for is like when do things bubble up and how are they supported to be aired out and resolved and, like, that's, that's part of working together in any kind of capacity.
00:23:28.605 --> 00:23:38.832
Like, we need to have that kind of space, and it's only when we shy away from that or don't allow that to come up that you move into this sort of everyone's nice and eggshell environment and, you know, like things can't breathe.
00:23:38.840 --> 00:23:52.761
You can't really move through, and it's just interesting to think about the, how the time horizon of this group being together and then how do you create flow within that of moving people between roles, adding new people when it makes sense.
00:23:53.126 --> 00:24:01.535
Even as you're trying new people in the group, those are kind of spurts of new energy and, and flow into the, into the group.
00:24:01.719 --> 00:24:18.272
Well, you've mentioned a little bit so far of how you work across industries, but one of the most interesting things as I think about you as an organization is how you are actively translating your practice into other settings, into leadership, management, et cetera.
00:24:18.290 --> 00:24:27.326
I'd love for you to share a little bit about how that started, where you're focusing when you think about other industries where you can share the approach in new contexts.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:33.124
Many, many years ago, one of our board members was Professor D- Dr. Richard Hackman.
00:24:33.132 --> 00:24:37.041
He's passed, unfortunately, but he was a professor at Harvard.
00:24:37.689 --> 00:24:47.888
He was, he was using Orpheus as an example of how sh- you know, a shared governance or, like, a collective could work and how this could translate into other industries.
00:24:47.932 --> 00:25:09.096
And he started doing leadership trainings with companies and obviously long before my time, and it was very successful because, you know, companies are always looking how to build maybe a better structure or a better culture within the organization, a better, you know, collaborative spirit, you know, in the constraints they have, obviously.
00:25:09.096 --> 00:25:11.403
I mean, we're 30 people or 34 on stage.
00:25:11.416 --> 00:25:15.173
I mean, they might be 2,000 or 200,000 or 200, you know?
00:25:15.576 --> 00:25:19.275
And so obviously you can't just make it a free-for-all all of a sudden.
00:25:19.276 --> 00:25:20.229
That just wouldn't work.
00:25:20.229 --> 00:25:21.868
You can't scale it indefinitely.
00:25:22.391 --> 00:25:37.282
When we do this and talk to companies and, and, you know, it… Now we work together with IESE, the business school out of the University of Navarra in Spain, and they have a, they have a campus here in New York City as well, and also, you know, many other places around the world.
00:25:37.877 --> 00:25:41.189
And we, we work with them together for their global MBA program.
00:25:41.191 --> 00:25:51.361
They bring us on to show them an extreme example, and I always say that when we talk to these people, I say, "This is Is this is not, I mean, we are, we are on the far left side really.
00:25:51.377 --> 00:25:57.511
And so it's not, it's, as I said earlier, it's not, it may not work this way for you, but there's some takeaways.
00:25:57.548 --> 00:25:59.855
And so that, that's really what we talk about.
00:25:59.861 --> 00:26:06.878
So just the flexibility and the understanding that this is not just because of your job title that you always lead.
00:26:06.925 --> 00:26:19.844
And, and if the willingness comes from the very top to change and to add this flexibility and this collaborative thinking, then it trickles down to, you know, into teams and, you know, smaller groups within the organization.
00:26:19.854 --> 00:26:20.909
That's how you change.
00:26:21.315 --> 00:26:26.455
And that's what we, what we really show them because we're a small team, obviously.
00:26:26.457 --> 00:26:28.852
I mean, we're a small group, and it works for us.
00:26:29.368 --> 00:26:33.160
But as I said, you have to have the right people, you have to have, have the right mindset-
00:26:33.273 --> 00:26:33.521
Mm-hmm.
00:26:33.679 --> 00:26:35.898
Yeah… Alexander Scheirle: and the Yeah.
00:26:35.898 --> 00:26:51.789
And it brings up the dynamic of is this something to teach and be taught and be learned, or something that is fundamentally, like, natural in someone's personality and orientation and just how they kind of move through the, the world, and therefore how they work.
00:26:52.114 --> 00:26:54.404
Where do you see that spectrum?
00:26:54.407 --> 00:27:03.013
Do you find that people in a, a large company, for example, get what this can look like and take it seriously?
00:27:03.013 --> 00:27:09.987
Or does it kind of come across as, like, "That's nice if you're a small team or if you're in a different industry, but for us over here…" Like, how much resistance do you feel?
00:27:10.371 --> 00:27:30.303
So we do one session with them, which, like, half day or so, and when we come into the room and you have a company there that's an airline or, I don't know, a, a beverage distributor or something, I mean, that's the kind of… Or bank, I mean, that's the kind of companies we, we have as our clients, then there's always this, "Why do we have musicians here?" Yeah.
00:27:30.473 --> 00:27:33.751
"What's this orchestra?" You know, that's, that's, you can sense it in the room.
00:27:33.751 --> 00:27:36.926
And I, and, you know, I always joke about it in my introductory speech.
00:27:36.928 --> 00:27:51.369
I say, "I know, I'm, I know what you're thinking. I can see it." And, uh, and at the end of the session, we get standing ovations because it's, it's just, you know- It's so different and it's so positive, and they can see the change.
00:27:51.388 --> 00:27:52.573
Like, they hear it.
00:27:53.180 --> 00:27:59.049
Like, we, the way we do it is, you know, we bring a few of our musicians and they rehearse a piece that they've never rehearsed together.
00:27:59.049 --> 00:28:02.304
It's like a brand-new issue, right, that they're taking up.
00:28:02.692 --> 00:28:05.980
And then they work together and the audience observes.
00:28:06.028 --> 00:28:12.823
And it's not a PowerPoint, it's not a dry exercise, it's like a live, it's a live orchestra rehearsal.
00:28:12.855 --> 00:28:17.602
And even if you're not musical, it doesn't matter, but you, you, you hear the difference.
00:28:17.650 --> 00:28:22.397
As the problems are being solved, you can hear it, you can see it, and then they see the interaction.
00:28:22.397 --> 00:28:28.535
You see how they communicate, how they criticize, and that, and that's an eye-opening moment for them.
00:28:28.587 --> 00:28:31.662
And, and then the discussion starts, like the questions you
00:28:31.662 --> 00:28:32.955
How do you hire?
00:28:32.977 --> 00:28:33.792
How do you fire?
00:28:33.792 --> 00:28:34.781
What do you pay people?
00:28:34.781 --> 00:28:36.548
And, you know, are they all being paid the same?
00:28:36.721 --> 00:28:37.837
And all these kind of things.
00:28:37.838 --> 00:28:38.974
How long do people stay?
00:28:39.468 --> 00:28:45.945
And, and, and some of them say,"Well, I wish my boss would be here." I've heard that.
00:28:46.288 --> 00:28:52.527
Or, "That would not work in our company because we're just too hierarchical." But we've had some major changes.
00:28:52.528 --> 00:28:56.038
I remember there was an airline, I always feel bad about that.
00:28:56.046 --> 00:29:02.983
But we had an airline, the executive C-suite was there, really from the chairman to the board, ex- CEO, everything, and they were there and they just loved it.
00:29:02.983 --> 00:29:06.961
And then weeks later, I hear that the CEO was let go, and it was like, "Oh my God, I don't know.
00:29:06.964 --> 00:29:08.528
I hope it wasn't because-" Oh. "… of us."
00:29:08.575 --> 00:29:10.460
Never know, maybe it opened up a new path.
00:29:11.473 --> 00:29:17.909
But they were looking for structural change and, like, a new kind of completely new culture, you know, in their organization.
00:29:17.931 --> 00:29:19.094
I'm not saying we're better.
00:29:19.111 --> 00:29:20.266
It's just very different.
00:29:20.584 --> 00:29:36.800
I find that I can see that our musicians- And let's just say you are in the audience, you don't know nothing about music, and you may not know if it's better or not, but it grabs you because everyone on stage, uh, displays so much emotion and, and, um, involvement.
00:29:36.923 --> 00:29:41.888
You know, the energy level is just so high, and that's what you sense in the audience.
00:29:41.901 --> 00:29:49.275
It's, it's almost like you watch a movie and there's an actor that's just not genuine, and then you're like, "Well, that's just not… You know, I don't get it," you know?
00:29:49.311 --> 00:29:53.865
But if someone is just, like, bringing out their soul, then it pulls you in.
00:29:54.121 --> 00:30:01.023
And that's what happens with Orpheus concerts, that you, you're getting sucked in because it's just so, it's just so emotional.
00:30:01.037 --> 00:30:03.381
And, you know, on top of they're great musicians, of course.
00:30:03.416 --> 00:30:03.619
Mm-hmm.
00:30:03.619 --> 00:30:03.630
Mm-hmm.
00:30:03.652 --> 00:30:04.057
Of course.
00:30:04.057 --> 00:30:05.336
But that's, that's the difference.
00:30:05.403 --> 00:30:13.114
Yeah, and the level of attunement across the group as opposed to all centralized on the conductor as an interesting contrast.
00:30:13.173 --> 00:30:16.463
That is something I'm sure is felt by anyone that's around that.
00:30:16.942 --> 00:30:33.404
But you want that in, in any company because, I mean, you know… I mean, if there's someone on the top that always makes all the decisions, then, you know, the person that's confronted with the problem, let's say the service or the whatever, uh, the person that's on the phone can't make the decision, then that, that person doesn't feel ownership because they can't, can't make a decision.
00:30:33.498 --> 00:30:34.778
They always run it up the chain.
00:30:35.157 --> 00:30:37.259
So you want that ownership in your company.
00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:40.340
You want that responsibility that, that people feel in whatever, you know.
00:30:40.818 --> 00:30:41.152
Yeah.
00:30:41.394 --> 00:30:43.826
Doesn't matter what you're, what you're in.
00:30:43.958 --> 00:30:58.515
It, it creates a much more, much more resilient structure and also enables ideas to flow, connections to flow, all the things that are easy to say but hard to implement when it comes to a healthy organizational structure too.
00:30:59.295 --> 00:31:04.923
And then, you know, think about, I mean, just this hierarchical and, like, running it up the chain.
00:31:04.923 --> 00:31:08.717
I mean, that, maybe that was a structure that worked really well, like, 30 years ago.
00:31:08.717 --> 00:31:15.320
But now, you know, in the time of, of internet and global interaction, I mean, things move fast, right?
00:31:15.346 --> 00:31:21.661
I mean, you can't just sit out a problem and wait until you get the… You know, I mean, decisions have to be made in time, right?
00:31:21.662 --> 00:31:23.318
In, in real time often.
00:31:23.318 --> 00:31:25.439
And so that's… So it's different.
00:31:25.508 --> 00:31:27.851
I mean, things have changed, and you have to adapt to it.
00:31:28.136 --> 00:31:40.776
How much do you find that language matters as you're working with- Both within the artistic world and beyond it, like things like shared governance, collective leadership hierarchy.
00:31:40.776 --> 00:31:43.073
I mean, are these shared terms?
00:31:43.073 --> 00:31:47.528
Do you find that you're also translating a bit as you move through different spaces or…?
00:31:48.316 --> 00:31:48.785
We do.
00:31:48.801 --> 00:31:56.351
So I, when I came to Orpheus 10 years ago, we, we, uh, had a lot of leadership trainings going on, but we were doing it on our own.
00:31:56.363 --> 00:31:59.078
We didn't have an outside, like a business school, so attached to us.
00:31:59.131 --> 00:32:07.290
We did a lot of trainings with IESE then, and then we finally partnered up, and that's been a game changer, and it's been extremely successful, I have to say.
00:32:07.292 --> 00:32:10.251
I mean, as I said, I mean, companies love it.
00:32:10.298 --> 00:32:11.785
So to answer your question, yes.
00:32:11.832 --> 00:32:23.159
There was, we're lost in translation a little bit because we were using too many musical terms and too many specifics from the music industry, and that just, you have to find the right business language- Mm exactly, to-
00:32:23.159 --> 00:32:24.323
Yeah, for that audience.
00:32:24.617 --> 00:32:35.117
And how much of this also was a organizational conversation about bringing in different kinds of revenue, diversifying the health and stability of the organization?
00:32:35.390 --> 00:32:50.015
I mean, it's part of it, but we always knew that we have someone that we should tell the world about, is very, very unique, and that was ever since Professor Hackman came to us, and he basically said, "Guys, you have something.
00:32:50.019 --> 00:32:52.059
You need to, you just, you know, tell people about it.
00:32:52.060 --> 00:32:58.247
I mean, we need to hear, people need to hear." By the way, he was a professor for Social and Organizational Psychology at Harvard.
00:32:58.247 --> 00:33:02.292
He opened our eyes, and he took it on, and he, he really developed a strong program.
00:33:02.806 --> 00:33:11.027
So yes, I mean, uh, it was more like sharing the knowledge at first, but it is a revenue stream, of course.
00:33:11.098 --> 00:33:14.113
And but it's, you know, at Orpheus, we're non-for-profit.
00:33:14.113 --> 00:33:23.924
I mean, it's really… I mean, we do things because we like doing them, and, you know, we wanna serve our community off stage, on stage, and it's part of it.
00:33:23.939 --> 00:33:31.680
I mean, it's just how we do, you know, educational programs, how we do pro- programs with children or programs with people living with Alzheimer's.
00:33:31.714 --> 00:33:38.494
So O- Orpheus was known only at first as an organization, as an orchestra that plays, you know, worldwide and has released, what?
00:33:38.523 --> 00:33:40.035
Over 70 albums by now.
00:33:40.758 --> 00:33:52.744
But, you know, as, as, I, I mean, it became more and more obvious that, you know, if you just tour and play Carnegie Hall, you only serve a sliver of your community, and in order to be more present, which is so important, right?
00:33:52.800 --> 00:34:00.825
You have to, you have to do more off stage and go into your community, and these leadership programs are, they fall into the same category.
00:34:00.837 --> 00:34:01.157
Sure.
00:34:02.221 --> 00:34:02.601
Sure.
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:13.980
And I think it's, it's a unique and very clear example of shared decision-making and governance, but also that, to your point, it's not all or nothing with hierarchy.
00:34:13.989 --> 00:34:19.407
There is hierarchy, but it's shared, it's intentional, it's rotating, it's time-bound.
00:34:19.827 --> 00:34:34.541
There, you know, there is some structure, but it's not the same level of structure that traditional organizations, which were … Many of which designed several decades ago, you know, holding of that this is your job title, therefore this is where you sit in the chart.
00:34:34.614 --> 00:34:47.114
I mean, I wish this working across the aisle would be, you know … I mean, in politics, we j- we don't see it, and that's just … I wish we would, because I think we would be a lot more Successful-
00:34:47.128 --> 00:34:47.815
Mm… Alexander Scheirle: really.
00:34:48.266 --> 00:34:55.378
Have you thought about ways that your model and practice could apply in that particular lane?
00:34:55.449 --> 00:34:56.418
What would that look like?
00:34:57.090 --> 00:34:58.942
Yeah, I mean, I think about it all the time.
00:34:58.994 --> 00:35:05.364
Because, you know, as I, as I said earlier, I mean, I, I don't have to win every battle, and sometimes I just have to give in and let go, and that's fine.
00:35:05.375 --> 00:35:06.940
It's, you know, it's democracy.
00:35:07.936 --> 00:35:15.003
I mean, especially here in this country, I mean, it's a lot of black and white all the time, and it's, like, not, you know, reaching out across the aisle.
00:35:15.003 --> 00:35:16.934
It's like, why not work together?
00:35:16.971 --> 00:35:22.190
And it's like you're either r- you're either red or you're blue and, and, you know, that's just how it works.
00:35:22.206 --> 00:35:33.242
But I, I… Being on a, on a very, or working in a very collaborative organization, of course, I think about it every day when I read the news, like, "Goddammit, why are you not talking to each other?
00:35:33.242 --> 00:35:37.065
You know, wouldn't that be so much better?" But I don't know.
00:35:37.182 --> 00:35:39.840
I don't know how we could be- how we could help there.
00:35:40.085 --> 00:35:40.443
Mm. Mm. But,
00:35:40.824 --> 00:35:41.184
yeah.
00:35:41.248 --> 00:35:51.541
Yeah, I just think it doesn't matter what context we're talking about, whether it is politics, whether it is business, whether we're in academia or, you know, kids still in uni.
00:35:51.541 --> 00:36:07.672
I think there's, there are so many ways that what we're really talking about is how to create individual and shared spaces that you are respected, that you can learn together, grow together, do together, and that there are ways that can provide some structure.
00:36:07.672 --> 00:36:08.981
So it's not a free-for-all.
00:36:08.981 --> 00:36:12.592
But it is oriented towards some kind of shared goals.
00:36:12.608 --> 00:36:16.255
So yeah, that, that could be an interesting space to explore.
00:36:17.297 --> 00:36:18.188
Lots of opportunity.
00:36:19.175 --> 00:36:20.699
Endless opportunities, yeah.
00:36:21.284 --> 00:36:21.601
Yeah.
00:36:21.603 --> 00:36:25.815
As you, as you look forward, where's Orpheus in five years?
00:36:25.829 --> 00:36:28.858
Where do you, where do you see the landscape shifting?
00:36:29.376 --> 00:36:31.938
What are you feeling energized about as you look forward?
00:36:32.898 --> 00:36:38.641
Well, we're planning years ahead and, and I know that our touring activities are, are very strong.
00:36:38.690 --> 00:36:53.105
What's very important for me and what I wanted to keep focusing on for the next few years is to, rather than just being a performing arts organization, become, like, a, a social impact organization.
00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:02.362
Meaning that what I said earlier, you are serving a community, and playing concerts doesn't serve the entire community.
00:37:02.536 --> 00:37:08.666
And you have to figure out programs that involves as many people from your community as you can.
00:37:08.722 --> 00:37:21.505
And, and that's very important for me because, you know, I don't want to- I have children and they're on their phones, obviously, and social media, and it's a very kind of isolated thing to do.
00:37:21.525 --> 00:37:22.561
You can do it by yourself.
00:37:22.563 --> 00:37:23.413
You don't reach out.
00:37:23.461 --> 00:37:25.117
You know, you're not, you know, talking.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:31.500
You're not… And I, you know, 100 years ago, the symphony orchestra in your town, that was kind of a church, right?
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:41.188
I mean, it was like a central focal point, and people would go and they would socialize and see each other and talk and gossip and, you know, and listen to a concert, of course.
00:37:41.210 --> 00:37:44.358
But it's, it was maybe not the most important thing, the music.
00:37:44.358 --> 00:37:59.014
It's m- really the social aspect, and we kind of lost that, and we didn't lose it because we wanted to, but because of the offerings that we have now, you know, internet, 500 TV stations, and it's just an overflow of, you know, things that are going on.
00:37:59.014 --> 00:38:08.251
And, and I f- I feel like it's so important for any orchestra or any cultural organization to become that hub again and, and serve your community and be there.
00:38:08.251 --> 00:38:11.634
And, and I mean, that, for me, that is just so important.
00:38:11.648 --> 00:38:22.389
So the newest program that we just started last fall was, you know, we perform our C concert series here at Carnegie Hall in New York, and obviously, you know, it's a, it's a prestigious concert venue.
00:38:22.389 --> 00:38:34.440
It's very expensive, and tickets are expensive, and, you know, that limits who can come and listen to us, even though, you know, we sell out often, but not everyone can, can go and can join us.
00:38:34.476 --> 00:38:40.677
And so we started this program that we call Orpheus For All, where for one of our concerts, the ticket price is zero.
00:38:40.844 --> 00:38:43.027
We give away the tickets, all the 2,700 tickets.
00:38:43.028 --> 00:38:49.369
So we, we found sponsors that do it, and you know, tickets were gone within one hour when we opened the website.
00:38:49.713 --> 00:38:53.443
And it tells you that there's a huge appetite, and there were people in the hall I'd never seen before.
00:38:53.461 --> 00:38:59.733
There was such an enthusiasm and joy in the hall and, like, clapping and laughing and it was just so fun.
00:38:59.764 --> 00:39:09.882
It was just so- Oh, I love that … I, you know, not in a, in a pa- I mean, free concerts take place in parks and churches and stuff, but, like, the prestigious halls- Mm-hmm … you know, where people- Yeah,
00:39:09.914 --> 00:39:11.146
the full experience, yeah.
00:39:11.751 --> 00:39:12.925
Yeah, it's a full experience.
00:39:12.927 --> 00:39:14.532
Like, this is not just for a few.
00:39:14.536 --> 00:39:15.806
This is for you, too.
00:39:15.851 --> 00:39:20.585
It's a, it's a lofty goal, I know, but, but it fills me with joy even just talking about it.
00:39:20.585 --> 00:39:23.356
Mm. I see your energy changing as you, as you share that, too.
00:39:23.362 --> 00:39:36.007
That's beautiful to see, and I think it, it comes back to the essence of, of Orpheus and how, you know, it's, it really is the power of the shared collective, the experience of creating the, the pieces.
00:39:36.007 --> 00:39:46.371
And so to be able to extend that out to the experiencing of the pieces also feels very authentic, and there's no, there's no shortage of people who would like to experience it.
00:39:46.407 --> 00:40:00.853
Well, one thing that I'm asking everyone this season is, what's something that holds, something that you know because you're within the room, within the space, that may not be visible from the outside?
00:40:01.882 --> 00:40:19.239
I think it's the shared experience that people have that will make them stick together, and if you provide that, if you provide a platform for them to have this experience, and it doesn't matter what industry it is, I think you just create a bond that you can't buy with money.
00:40:19.315 --> 00:40:22.666
It's just something that, again, we're losing.
00:40:22.677 --> 00:40:27.387
You know, if you don't focus on it, you lose it, and I think that's, that's very important.
00:40:27.501 --> 00:40:28.496
You have to create this bond.
00:40:28.496 --> 00:40:38.018
You have to create a platform where this can happen, and I think it happens at Orpheus, and I, I really just wish that, that other system provide the platform, too.
00:40:38.052 --> 00:40:38.436
Mm-hmm.
00:40:38.525 --> 00:40:47.434
Those, those enabling conditions around the art, around the creation, around the bonds, it's a really powerful way to close out the conversation.
00:40:47.436 --> 00:40:48.557
Thank you so much, Alexander.
00:40:48.559 --> 00:41:00.039
This has been such a treat, and I'm, I'm excited for more people to learn about your model and approach and think about how they can apply it wherever they happen to be sitting.
00:41:01.047 --> 00:41:01.893
Well, thank you, Claire.
00:41:01.893 --> 00:41:06.384
I really appreciate it, and as I said, it always … I love talking about Orpheus.
00:41:07.103 --> 00:41:08.722
Thanks for listening to The Web of Us.
00:41:09.126 --> 00:41:13.760
The Web of Us is produced by Josie Colter and Ben Beheshty at Studio Goldstar.
00:41:14.210 --> 00:41:18.682
Hosted by me, Claire Wathen, Visiting Fellow at the Said Business School in Oxford.
00:41:19.157 --> 00:41:20.001
Welcome to the web.