INTERVIEW CLASSIC - WKPWP Interview Classic: Kevin Eck, ex-WWE writer 2011-2014, talks Reigns, McMahon, Punk, Bryan, Galloway, Cena, more

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Now. PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
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Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic,
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where Wadekeller Interview is one of pro Wrestling's newsmakers.
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On today's Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Interview Classic Flashbacks,
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we jump back ten years to my inner with XWWE
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Creative team member Kevin Eck. He talks about his years
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from twenty eleven to twenty fourteen with WWE with a
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wide range of topics, insights, and behind the scenes details
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on what aired on WWE television during that time period,
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his expensive thoughts on Seampunk, Daniel Bryant, Damian Sandout, Brian Gwertz,
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Vincient Man Roman, arranged in so many others, including first
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hand interactions and details on dealing with them as part
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of his job. The show includes live callers and email
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topics throughout. So let's get to it. This originally live
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streamed on May fifth, twenty sixteen, and it is Today's
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Way Keller Prosing Podcast You needby Classic for Saturday, May ninth,
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twenty twenty six Welcome to the p W Torch Live Cast.
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I am Wade Keller, editor and publisher of the Pro
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Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter established in nineteen eighty seven back
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when Ronald Reagan was president, and also Porch dot Com
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established in nineteen ninety nine, and also host of this
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the PW Torch Live Cast, which you can find six
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days a week and also seven days a week on
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pay perview weeks, but six weekly shows Monday through Saturday. Tomorrow,
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Torch Senior columnist Bruce Mitchell hosts with Travis Bryant from
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the East Coast Cast, by the Way, available at East
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coastcast dot com. If you're a fan of this show,
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check out that pro wrestling talk show part of the
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Torch Family. And then Saturday, Jim Valley hosts with Saturday
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Morning Wrestling at eleven thirty Eastern eight thirty Pacific time.
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He has a nostalgia theme to his show, talking about
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wrestling's recent and distant past, with special guests the grappler
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Lance Russell, Memphis wrestling announcer, many other cool guests scheduled too,
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so check that out. We're here six days a week
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and it is great when you listen live and you participate.
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Today is Thursday, May fifth, two thy sixteen, and it
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is Interview Thursday, and today's guest is a first time
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guest on the program. Ex WWE creative team member, longtime
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wrestling journalist out of the Baltimore area, Kevin Eck. And
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without further delay, let's get Kevin right onto the program
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and welcome him. Kevin, Welcome to the live cast.
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Thanks Wayne. I appreciate the invite.
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Absolutely, It's been I invited a couple of times along
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the way, and it just timing didn't seem right for
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you to talk about your experience with WWE, and I
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just have to say I'm thrilled to have you on
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and the time period that you were a writer and
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how recent it was. We'll make for I think a
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really good show here, So thank you for that. By
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way of introduction for our listeners, maybe talk a little
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bit about how you became a fan, where you how
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you got into writing about wrestling, and then to complicate
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the question, how you got your job with WWE, And
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then after that we'll get into discussions about your time
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there and some current events.
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Sure, I became back in the mid seventies. It was
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probably about nineteen seventy threes. I know I'm dating myself,
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but I was very young at the time. I'm not
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sure how it happened, but because neither of my parents
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were wrestling fans, and I didn't have a sibling at
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that point, so I'm not sure how. But one Saturday
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afternoon it got on my television and I just instantly
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fell in love with it and went to my first
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show in December of seventy three in Baltimore. Still remember
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the main event. It was Andre the Giant against Dan Stasiac,
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and like I said, I was hooked and have been
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hooked ever since. My other passion besides wrestling was always writing,
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especially sports writing. I knew at an early age that
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that's what I wanted to be, was a sports writer.
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One day, I gave up the idea of being a wrestler.
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Pretty early on, I just knew I wasn't probably going
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to be big enough or tough enough, so I wanted
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to be a sports journalist, speeding up a little bit.
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That's why you know. I got into the Baltimore Sun
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at an early age. Also, I was a teenager and
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started working there as an unpaid intern paid my dues.
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Eventually worked my way up to a reporter and an
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editor's position, and always I worked in the sports department,
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and I always pushed the idea of doing stories on wrestling,
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but we were very there was an unwritten policy that
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we just couldn't write about it in the sports department
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because it wasn't a legitimate sport. So I was told,
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unless we can make a sports connection to the wrestling story,
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we can't really write it. So in nineteen ninety four
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I wrote my first wrestling story for the Sun because
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Randy Macho Man Savage was coming to Baltimore for a
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personal appearance at a supermarket of all places, to promote
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King of the Ring being in Baltimore that summer. So
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I pitched the idea of Randy Savage being a former
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minor league baseball player who failed at that and got
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into wrestling and became a huge success. So that was
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my first wrestling interview. I got to sit down in
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the back of a farm fresh in Baltimore one on
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one to have an interview with Randy Savage. And so
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anytime after that, whenever WWE or WCW came to town,
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I tried to find some kind of angle to write about.
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I went to wrestle Mania eleven, I think it was
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one band Van Bigelow was in with Marrence Taylor. Again
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there was the sports connection Lawrence Taylor. So I wrote
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that when Kevin Green and Steve McMichael got in, and
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then from there the rain seemed to have loosened up
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a little bit, and especially our features department. As wrestling
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got hot in the during the Monday Night Wars era,
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they constantly they were fine with having wrestling at that
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point because it was popular, and so every time wrestling
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came to town or something was going on in pop
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culture with wrestling, more and more I was able to
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write about it. That led to in two thousand and seven,
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I think it was we were going more and more
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for online content and basically anybody who had a could
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write about a niche. You know, if you were a
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food fan, you'd write the food blog, you know, whatever
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it was, and of course, me being a wrestling fan,
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they asked me if i'd be interested in writing a
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wrestling blog. So I started a blog called ring Posts.
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That really helped with where my career eventually went is
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because that blog took off and was a lot more
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popular than I ever dreamed it would be. I had small,
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a small vision for it. I was writing for the
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Baltimore Sun's website, so I almost thought, well, it's like
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writing for the newspaper in Baltimore, and I geared it
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towards the local reading audience, but you know, not even
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really thinking that people all over the world literally would
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be interested in reading this wrestling blog coming out out
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of Baltimore. But the audience really grew for it, and
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one of the people who read it, apparently I heard
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back from several people in wode was Kevin Dunn, because
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as you know, I'm sure Kevin Done is a Baltimore guy.
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We actually went to the same college, Tallfas State University,
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not the same time, but that was the college that
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we both attended. So long story short, if it's not
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too long already. I got introduced to Kevin Dunn after
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a SmackDown show in Baltimore one night, actually by John Gooborick,
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who I had gotten to know a little bit, another
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Baltimore guy, another Talfam State guy, and Kevin just floated
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the idea of would I ever be interested in working
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for ww one day? And of course I said yes,
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And he threw out the idea of the creative department
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looking for new writers all the time, and so that
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kind of put it in motion. And it didn't happen
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right away, but down the line I heard through Kevin
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again and he just said, hey, you know, the time
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might be right, and he kind of put the wheels
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in motion for an interview. To go back a little bit.
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I left the Baltimore Sun in two thousand to go
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work in WCW as a magazine editor there, and I
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literally started one year before the company was bought by WWE.
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So I worked there from the March of two thousand
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the March of two thousand and one. After I lost
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that job, I went back to Baltimore and resumed my
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writing career there until leaving for WWE. And I told
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Kevin when he asked me at the time, would I've
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interested in writing for them? I said, well, yeah, I
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actually interviewed for that job after w After WCW went down,
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I got an interview with WWE it was October of
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two thousand and one to join the creative writing team.
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I had to submit a sample script just to get
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the interview, which I did and they liked, so they
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brought me up for two days of interviews. I met
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with Stephanie, I met with Paul Hayman who was on
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the creative team at the time, and Brian go Wortz
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and Michael Hayes was there. And I did not get
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hired at that time. They said thank you very much
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for your time and your interview, but I got the
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phone call a few days later that we're not going
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to pursue this going forward. So in my mind at
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that point, I thought, well, I did it. I got
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my interview, you know, I took my shot and it
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wasn't in the cards. And you know, once again, I
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was very happy writing for the Baltimore Sun and dabbling
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in it a little bit here and there. When I
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could get the feature story in the paper and then
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the blog, and I thought that was the end of it.
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Never in a million years did I think after getting
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that first interview, i'd ever get a second opportunity. And
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I used to joke with people of the Sun all
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the time because, as you're aware, the newspaper business over
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the years has I don't know the polite way to
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put it, but it's it's not in a good spot,
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and you know, people were leaving The Sun left and
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right to pursue other opportunities, and me being a Baltimore
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guy and being at the paper for so long, I
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always joked that the only thing that's going to get
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me out of here is that Vince McMahon calls me
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up and asked me to join the writing team. And
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I was like, you know, because that's never going to happen.
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But as it turned out, Stephanie McMahon called me up
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and asked me to join the writing team.
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So pretty close, pretty close. Yep, that's great, that's great.
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The uh yeah, I didn't know you went back that
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far as a fan, so that that's pretty cool. I
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go back to I don't know when my first wresting
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show was, but it was like when I watched on
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TV for the first time, but it was either seventy
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eight or seventy nine. I've tried to kind of track
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that down in the various results of TV shows to
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figure out exactly when it first caught my eye. But
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same thing, same thing with me, you know, just caught
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my eye on television. I had no other people I knew,
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friends or siblings or anything or family who were into it,
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and I just haven't looked back. So that's a great story. Okay,
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we have to take our first commercial break. When we
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come back, we're going to take phone calls and email questions,
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So we welcome anybody who wants to ask Kevin a question
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about his time in WWE circa twenty eleven through twenty fourteen,
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or we can talk current events too. Kevin is going
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to have an eye to He's gonna be able to
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spot certain things that maybe the average person watching TV
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doesn't in terms of where things started, where an idea originated,
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how it's playing out now, a different course it might
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have taken than originally planned. And so we'll get into
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current events in addition to having him share some stories
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and insights from his time there just a few years
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ago or a couple of years ago. So stay tuned.
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After this break, we'll start taking calls and talking current events. Remember,
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if you call six four, six, seven to one nine
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A two weight. You need to push one on your
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00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.519
touched on phone in order to move into the caller Q.
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Otherwise you'll just be in standby mode eavesdropping on the program,
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which is certainly fine. But if you have a question
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or comment for Kevin, push one. All right, we'll be
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back right after this. Did you know that you can
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start your seven day free trial. All right, we are
270
00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:31.039
back live at one twelve pm Easter and this is
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00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.679
the PW torch Live Cast. You can find our shows
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00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:39.200
live and on demand at pw torch livecast dot com.
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Today's guest on Interview Thursday is Kevin Eck, former creative
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team member with WWE from about twenty eleven to twenty fourteen,
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and we'll get more details on his time there as
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the show progresses. Kevin, I've asked this of other ex
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writers who have been on the program. I think it's
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00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.639
kind of fun to have you walk through a little
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bit of what you did to prep for your job
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in terms of WWE before you walked in the door
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00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.799
the first time, in terms of anything that you would
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00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.159
to do to prepare for the job, interacting with them,
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00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:17.759
and then especially share some memories and paint a picture
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of what that first day at work was like and
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00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.879
contrast that with your expectations. And to have you talk,
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00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:27.759
I need to turn your mic on again. So there
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00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:28.879
we go, All right, go ahead, Kevin?
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00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.440
Sure, Well, I always tell this to people when they
289
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.919
ask me, you know, my experiences working there and so forth,
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00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.720
and you know what it felt like, you know the
291
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:41.480
first day, what my mindset was. And look, I went
292
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.440
in there with my eyes wide open. You know, I
293
00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.440
had done my homework, and I know that there are
294
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.840
writers that left and talked about, you know, how crazy
295
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.279
it was or how frustrating it was, and that you know,
296
00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.559
it was a dream job that turned into a nightmare.
297
00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.600
So I went in there fully aware that they are
298
00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.159
going to be some good days, some bad days, and
299
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.279
I really didn't have expectations. I went in and tried
300
00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.120
to be as positive about it as possible, and it
301
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.200
seemed like, you know, I had a really I hit
302
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.399
it off really well, I thought with Stephanie just in
303
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.200
the interview process, and I interviewed with Hunter as well,
304
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.559
and I got a really good vibe from the two
305
00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.240
of them, and you know, was friendly with Kevin Dunn
306
00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.200
at that point, not not like we were hanging out together.
307
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.000
But again he had said that he was a fan
308
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.279
of the blog, and so I went in there feeling
309
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.320
like it was gonna be good, a good experience. Now,
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00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:39.039
what I wasn't prepared for was there's a lot of
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00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:41.840
I'm gonna try to be politically correct. But you know,
312
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.080
as with any job, I think when people have been
313
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.399
there for a while and then a new person comes in,
314
00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.639
especially in a competitive environment like it is in WWE,
315
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.320
and there's a lot of turnover on the writing staff,
316
00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.679
I think there was some trepidation about, you know, the
317
00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:00.840
new guy coming in as always going to kind of
318
00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:03.360
get the uh, who's this guy? You know, who's this
319
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.319
guy think he is? And I think it, yeah, I'm
320
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:07.960
talking about the other people in the writing team now,
321
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.480
And I think some of that with me was even
322
00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:13.720
a little bit worse because I had the blog and
323
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.880
some people knew who I was when I took the job.
324
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.359
I remember it was a headline, you know, on on
325
00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.279
internet wrestling sites. I think it was a little bit.
326
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.519
Of what's that I've never heard of Internet wresting sites,
327
00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:28.519
don't know what you're talking about?
328
00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.400
Okay, you know, so yeah, so the guys saw that,
329
00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.279
you know, and it's you know, it was very complimentary
330
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.680
and something to some regard, but it also I think
331
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.359
didn't do me any favors that some people wrote, oh
332
00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:41.759
this is great, you know people who liked my blog, Yeah,
333
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.440
this is great. Get a good mind for you know, he's
334
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.000
going to go in there and really turn this ship around.
335
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.559
Finally, a good talented writer who knows what they're doing. Right,
336
00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:53.359
That's not that's not the best. Uh, that's not the
337
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.319
best way to lock in on the job when you
338
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.000
know that's the pr image that you might have.
339
00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.640
Yeah, yeah, you can imagine how that's at with some
340
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.559
other people on the writing team, and especially people that
341
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.079
have been there for a while. So it was really
342
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.160
kind of a almost like an initiation process. They had
343
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.759
to get to know me and and you know, it
344
00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.279
was it was not always the easiest transition to make
345
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.039
you know what you really have. Once you're welcomed into
346
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.119
the family, then you're kind of you know, you're part
347
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.519
of the family, even if you leave and take another
348
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.519
job or you're let go whatever. So it sort of
349
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:28.759
like once you're in that fraternity, you know, you're you're
350
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.640
in it, and I still have friends you know that
351
00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.920
are on the writing team that that worked there. When
352
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.759
I started, we had just WW had just started a
353
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.640
new system where there was a The writing team was
354
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.680
divided in half. You had half the team that stayed
355
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:47.599
home in Stanford. It was called the home team, and
356
00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.039
you worked in the office Monday through Friday, and then
357
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:52.000
you had the road team that went to Raw and
358
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.599
Smack Down every Monday and Tuesday if there was a
359
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.319
pay per view obviously Sunday, Monday and Tuesday had three
360
00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.680
days of TV. And I decided early on excuse me,
361
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.279
because I was a little older than a lot of
362
00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.480
the guys on the writing team and was married and
363
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.039
had kids, that I really didn't want to do all
364
00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.880
that traveling, so I wanted to be on the home team,
365
00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.039
and I was. I got my wish. They put me on.
366
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.160
That was really it would have been a deal breaker
367
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.599
for me, quite honestly, if they would have said you're
368
00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:22.359
going on the road every week, because I'm I hate traveling.
369
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:25.799
But they did say we want you to travel once
370
00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.200
in a while, you know, during pay per view loops.
371
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.319
I would usually go to TV those three days, and
372
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:32.960
I was kind of the number one still in like
373
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.559
if someone was on vacation or couldn't make TV that week,
374
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:37.599
I would go out and do it. So sometimes I
375
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:39.759
was I was traveling a couple of times a couple
376
00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:43.960
of those weeks a month. But my first my first day,
377
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.240
you know, I was introduced to Brian the works. Brian
378
00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.720
was the leader of the home team and really the
379
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:53.359
whole writing team at that time. And you know, I'll
380
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:58.119
say this, Brian is he has very high expectations of
381
00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.559
you and and if you don't meet those expectations, Brian's
382
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:03.960
a very bottom line guy. He's a very it's a
383
00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.000
results oriented business and if you can't cut it, then
384
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.920
you'll be asked to leave. And I was up there
385
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.640
about three weeks when I saw my first person get fired,
386
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.359
and that was it was. It was shocking to me
387
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.400
because I'd never seen anything like that in any of
388
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.160
my other jobs. Where a guy was literally sitting across
389
00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.039
the table from me one day and he was called
390
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.480
to HR and didn't come back in. He was a
391
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.640
writing assistant. He was a writing assistant at the time,
392
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.960
and after he was called to HR, our administrative assistant
393
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.400
walked in, gathered his things, packed up his computer, and
394
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.279
grabbed his jacket and said, you know, he's not going
395
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.640
to be coming back, and I was like, wow, I've
396
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.279
never seen anything like that before. Funny story was, because
397
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.039
he was a writing assistant. We used to send those
398
00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:50.240
guys out for food a lot of times. And this
399
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.559
was around lunchtime. We had just placed an order for
400
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.519
subway and he was he was taking down the orders
401
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.400
when he got the call to leave, and my first
402
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.000
reaction was, does that mean we're not getting lunch? So
403
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.839
I had to get over the shock of it pretty
404
00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.799
pretty much. Yeah, but Brian was a really interesting guy.
405
00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:10.920
I learned a lot from him and just his you know,
406
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.480
he had dealt with Vince. He had been there for
407
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.799
so long at that point, and he really became sort
408
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.079
of the de facto Vince to us whenever we would
409
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.240
make a pitch. You know, I thought he was very
410
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.559
Brian was very hard to impress, and Brian would always
411
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.799
try to shoot holes through your pitches and stuff like that.
412
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.000
But what I realized haven't been there for a while
413
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.440
is he was basically playing the role of Vince, so
414
00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:33.720
that when we got in front of Vince and pitched
415
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.240
our ideas, we've already had them vetted by Brian, and
416
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.359
he's all he was preparing us for maybe some of
417
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:42.319
the questions we were going to get from Vince and
418
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:44.599
to be prepared for those things. So I really grew
419
00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:47.200
to appreciate Brian after a while, and he was I
420
00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.720
can't stress how valuable he was. I know, he's he's
421
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:52.839
people might have a weird perception of him. I know
422
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.640
he thought he was the nerdy comic book guy that
423
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:57.720
didn't know what was going on, but he was actually
424
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:01.359
a wrestling fan and and just to a super talented
425
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.599
guy like I can't put him over enough. And and
426
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.119
I think it's it's actually a loss for those to
427
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.599
be that he's not involved in the creative process anymore,
428
00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.079
because I just think he was. His input was invaluable,
429
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:15.000
and he knew how to deal with Vince, and he
430
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.039
was sort of the buffer for us with Vince.
431
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.279
When he left, people were shocked because, I mean, ex
432
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.880
writers and people who knew about his relationship with Vince
433
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:26.920
looked at him as a lifer. I mean, it just
434
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:31.079
that was I mean, you can give your perspective on that,
435
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.000
but there were people who just thought, because of what
436
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.119
you just said, that Vince would do what it took
437
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.160
to keep him. Because Brian knew how to make himself
438
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.440
invaluable to Vince, and Vince utilized him as as somebody
439
00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.000
who what you just described as something that I think
440
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.039
Vince would really admire in value in somebody who's the
441
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:48.640
head of his writing team, so that he didn't have
442
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:51.759
to deal with a lot of bad ideas or timid
443
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.599
be or timid weak writers.
444
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.720
Yeah. I remember the way it went down was we'd
445
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:03.279
gotten which it's funny to see how ratings have progressed now,
446
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.920
but we had gotten a two point five rating and
447
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:10.960
which was really really low for that time. You know,
448
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.319
we were in the three to three five range, and
449
00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:16.319
one week we came in with a two five and
450
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.680
that was it. You know. Brian came in like a
451
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.920
day or so after that, and it was, you know,
452
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.640
one of those things that was worded as Brian now
453
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.720
has an opportunity to seek other ventures that he's always
454
00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:33.519
wanted to do, and and you know, it was really
455
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:36.880
presented as, hey, this is something that's great for Brian,
456
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.839
and he gets he was going to stay on as
457
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.079
a consultant, but he wouldn't have to be in the
458
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.119
office every day, and you know, but I mean it
459
00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:45.720
was what it was, and I think we all saw
460
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.720
through it. It was two point five rating by Brian,
461
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:51.799
which I thought was really really unfair, you know, because
462
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.720
what people will never really understand is there's a lot
463
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:58.200
of good ideas that are generated in that writing room,
464
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.319
but at the end of the day, when those ideas
465
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.920
get presented in the booking room to Vince, Vince is
466
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.799
going to do what Vince wants to do. And it's
467
00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:09.960
always unfair. I think when people criticize the creative team,
468
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.200
and I get it because they don't understand the process.
469
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.599
But when you criticize the WW creative you're criticizing Vince
470
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:20.519
McMahon because the buckstops there. He will he will sign
471
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:22.119
off on some of your ideas and some of those
472
00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:24.640
will get on TV. Other ones he will completely reject
473
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.119
it to his own ideas, or some he will tweak
474
00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.119
and make them his own, you know, his version of
475
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.279
those ideas. But at the end of the day, Brian
476
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.079
the works, or you know, anyone else who's been there since,
477
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:39.400
any writer, they're not really ultimately responsible for what gets
478
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:43.200
on TV. It's it's always Vince. And you know, Brian
479
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.720
remained valuable even after he was in a consultant's position
480
00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:49.680
because he would he would write One of the things
481
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.319
he was asked to do was write critiques of the show,
482
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.200
and he would turn in his thoughts on the show
483
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.640
after every Monday Night Rowle. He would send them out
484
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.920
and we could all you know, everyone was privy to them,
485
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.480
and Brian pulled no punches, you know, which I do
486
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:04.720
think Vince really appreciated. He would say what he thought
487
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:08.839
was good, bad, what worked, what didn't. And I think
488
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:10.920
Vince really did, you know, like I said, at the
489
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000
end of the day, Vince's going to do what he
490
00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:13.559
wants to do, but I think he really did value
491
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.640
Brian's opinion and I think Brian's opinion in some way
492
00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:19.839
could get Vince to, you know, maybe look at things
493
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:24.559
a little bit differently. Funny Funny Brian's story real quick
494
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.920
is one time he told us that he was in
495
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.119
a meeting production meeting. Well this was before I had
496
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.200
started there, but he relayed the story to me and
497
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.440
others was that, uh, there was a production meeting at
498
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.240
TV one day and a lot of different writers were
499
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.200
speaking up and Vince was shooting everybody's ideas down. And
500
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.440
after that some people were hesitant, you know, they became
501
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.440
timid as you meanted the words and you mentioned and
502
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:52.759
afraid to pitch. And so Brian went to Vince after
503
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.640
the meeting. It was just him and Vince and and
504
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.519
Brian said, you know, I think some of the ways
505
00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:00.599
that you know, when when you sort of shut people
506
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:02.720
down with their ideas, it makes them want to shut
507
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.319
down and not pitch anymore. And I think you know
508
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:09.079
that's why some people are getting quiet or timid. And uh,
509
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:11.079
he said, Vince, you know, listen to what he said
510
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.680
and thought about it, and uh said, uh, well, let
511
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.039
me ask you this. Are we allowed to curse on
512
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:16.400
the show?
513
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:21.119
We actually are not marked as explicit, so everyone someone
514
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:23.000
speaks when everyone's in a while, but you can mask
515
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:24.400
it and get give people the flavor.
516
00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.240
Well, I'm glad, I answered, yeah, I'm glad you I
517
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.720
asked that, so I'll censor it, okay. After Brian. After
518
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:33.799
Brian said that to Vince, Vince thought about it, and
519
00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:37.799
Vince said, well, if that's the way they feel, asked
520
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.240
them and asked you and he said it in is
521
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:46.640
your fired voice? And Brian was like, Brian, play well, okay,
522
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:47.319
then good talk.
523
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.400
Are you a fan of aw looking to sit back, relax?
524
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:02.519
And listen to some like minded podcasters who share your passion.
525
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:04.920
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
526
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.160
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
527
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.920
they thinking? Do you want to join a discussion on
528
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.720
what AW is doing right and what they could do
529
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.880
to improve? Then join me Joel and me Greg for
530
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.440
the All of the Conversation Club every Friday on the
531
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.279
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full details on the pw Torchdailycast lineup at pw torchdailycast
535
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:44.279
dot com.
536
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.640
Okay, two questions on the tip of my tongue and
537
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:48.359
then we'll take call. We got email questions coming in
538
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.559
and also phone calls on whod too? Who replaced? By
539
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.960
the way, that's not I wasn't implying your answers for
540
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:57.839
too long. This is absolutely great. I really appreciate what
541
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.960
you're bringing to the show, and these great stories tough
542
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.400
underline or fill in some gaps in my knowledge certainly
543
00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.359
of what was going on there. First question, who replaced
544
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:11.880
Brian Gewertz more than anybody else. Maybe it's not one
545
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.640
single person, but in terms of fill and brian shoes
546
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.720
and taking on some of what you described he did,
547
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:20.000
did anyone fully replace him or did it take two
548
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:21.480
or three people to do it or has no one
549
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:22.039
yet done that.
550
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:25.319
I don't think anyone, you know, when I was there,
551
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.440
fully replaced him, because I don't think you could fully
552
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.279
replace Brian. But the guy who stepped up was Ed Koski. Yeah,
553
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:34.000
and I'm not sure how many people are familiar with
554
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:36.720
that name, but Ed's also been there a long time,
555
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:42.279
and Ed, I think, even more so than Brian, had
556
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:46.599
a very had a good rapport with Vince, and because
557
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:48.079
there were a few times when I was there where
558
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.359
I would see Vince and Brian kind of their personalities clash,
559
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.359
especially when it involved the Rock and John Cena storylines,
560
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.000
because as you probably know, Brian was the Rocks person
561
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:04.079
a writer, and anytime Rock would do anything with the company,
562
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.880
Vince was there or Brian was there to be his writer.
563
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640
And uh, during that whole Rock and Scene a build,
564
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:16.279
there were times I think where some people thought maybe
565
00:29:16.519 --> 00:29:19.200
Brian was trying to write in a way that made
566
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.680
Rock look good and maybe seen and not as good.
567
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.200
I don't know that was something that kind of came up.
568
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.640
I don't believe that was the case, but you know,
569
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.640
some people felt some people in the company maybe felt that,
570
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.559
And I know he and Vince clashed about that a
571
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:35.880
couple of times. But Ed and and Vince, anytime I
572
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:39.440
saw those two interact, it was always one of respect
573
00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:44.920
and and Vince would let Ed. I think maybe he
574
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.279
had a little longer leash on on on Ed and
575
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.079
Ed could ask some of the questions that maybe other
576
00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:55.119
people wouldn't and could push Vince in a certain way
577
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:59.079
where other people were hesitant to. So I think Ed
578
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.200
was really really invaluable. It still is. I know it's
579
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:07.039
still there. Ed became head writer Monday Night Raw, and
580
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:09.319
you know, was a guy who would read through the
581
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.720
show at the production meetings. And I don't know if
582
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.440
you've ever come across Ed, but is a guy with
583
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.119
a lot of personality and funny and you know, he's
584
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:20.920
entertaining in the production meetings. And I think all of
585
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.279
that goes a long way with Vin. How you stand
586
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.519
up in front of an audience, how you present yourself,
587
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.440
how you present your ideas, if you do it with confidence,
588
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.480
if you have personality, you're funny, all those things go
589
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:34.720
in your favor, and ed Hat had all that working
590
00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:39.039
for him in addition to really being a wrestling expert,
591
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:42.480
like he was a longtime fan and knew his stuff.
592
00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:45.680
And that's another perception I think sometimes people have with
593
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.880
the creative teams that they're not really wrestling fans. And
594
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:50.480
that was not the case when I was there. Yes,
595
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.240
we had some people who came in from Hollywood, some
596
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:56.599
with a limited some were you know, casual fans, some
597
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:00.559
knew nothing but they learned. But by and large, there
598
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:03.240
are a lot of people there that the same as us,
599
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:05.559
you know, had passion for the business and were knowledgeable
600
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:06.039
about it.
601
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:11.319
And I think the perception is there in part because
602
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.400
and I think this is understandable WWE. This is I
603
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.400
think in the early two thousands, Stephanie McMahon and Vince
604
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:19.720
McMahon they didn't want people coming in who were just
605
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.319
going to be wide eyed marks to use the true
606
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:25.559
the industry term ooh I get to, you know, asking
607
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:28.559
for autographs, posing for pictures, And they wanted people who
608
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:30.720
felt who walked in that room and acted like I've
609
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.880
got a role I belong But I'm not in awe
610
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.519
of the wrestlers. I respect them, I know their history,
611
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:37.160
but I'm not just going to be a big mark
612
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:38.839
drooling over the fact that I get to hang out
613
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:41.440
with these wrestlers and embarrassing because I mean, I've you know,
614
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.240
after matches, I've seen what happens, and it's it changes.
615
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.160
It seems like it's changing rapidly in terms of wrestlers
616
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:51.960
even hanging out at bars compared to in past years
617
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.039
or the restaurants afterwards. But the writers from the times
618
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.039
that I've seen gather in a circle at a big
619
00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:58.960
booth and you know, they hang out and talk with
620
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.039
each other and a couple other people aren't talent, and
621
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:02.640
then the wrestlers are on the other side of the
622
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:04.799
bar and they kind of do their thing, and it's
623
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:07.680
they did. I get the sense that WW we didn't
624
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.039
want writers who are just going to want to go
625
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:10.519
hang out with the wrestlers just so they can tell
626
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:11.880
their friends' stories about it.
627
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:15.079
Right, And I think there was a sort of a
628
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.720
prestige thing as well, especially like you said nearly two thousands,
629
00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:22.519
where you know, I think Stephanie wanted to be able
630
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:24.200
to say, hey, let's who's on our writing staff and
631
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:27.200
somebody with these all these look at the Hollywood credits
632
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.160
they were on Seinfeld or whatever you know it would be,
633
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:31.920
or you know it's Freddie Prinn's junior.
634
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:36.240
Do and IMDb Awards already have a list on IMDb,
635
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:39.839
you know. I mean, yeah, I'm serious, Like she would
636
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.559
want to bring in people where she could, like there's
637
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:45.759
an a stab, there's established writing credits, because I think
638
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:47.640
there was an insecurity there. I think it's probably less
639
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.279
so now and maybe, I mean you can speak to
640
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.160
better than I can, but I think there was an idea,
641
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.200
especially after Russo and Farara left and they kind of
642
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.039
rethought how they were going to do this, and they
643
00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:57.920
knew they wanted a writing team, but they wanted it
644
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.000
to be different than what it had been. I think
645
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.519
the idea was they're kind of insecure about their place
646
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.920
and television, and the best way to present themselves to
647
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:11.279
NBCUniversal Bonnie Hammer is, Hey, you might have hired this
648
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:13.920
writer for another show or one of your produce production
649
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:17.359
companies might have, but we did. And I don't think
650
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:19.160
that's as much of a hang up now because I
651
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.240
think they're kind of past that transition stage, they're a
652
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:22.640
little more as secure with themselves.
653
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.480
I think you nailed it on the head. I totally
654
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.839
agree with your assessment there, and I think it has
655
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.839
changed to some extent where I think they're a little
656
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.000
more secure with their place in the entertainment world and
657
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.920
not so much having to try to prove, hey, we're
658
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.799
not the old wrasslin industry yep. And so now obviously
659
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:44.359
they're still looking for the Hollywood writers and such with credits,
660
00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:46.599
but I think they recognize a little bit more that
661
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:48.920
it helps to have a mix. Let's have those people.
662
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:51.279
If those people happen to be fans on top of it,
663
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.119
that's a home run. But you know, people from other
664
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.559
walks of life, who you know, whether it's journalism or
665
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.359
whatever it is, that come in with an already built
666
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.640
in knowledge passion for the industry is not a bad thing.
667
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:04.920
And so I think you're right. I think it has
668
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:06.000
changed over the years.
669
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:08.880
And you don't want writers who come in and ask
670
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:11.519
Michael Hayes, hey, how did you get your job as
671
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:15.079
Doc Hendricks? You know, like you know and don't know
672
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.559
that he was a free bird. I mean that's just
673
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:18.440
you know, one example. I mean, it's just a random example,
674
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.360
But I mean there's been stories of writers who have
675
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.280
asked really embarrassing questions in writing meetings. I have a
676
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:27.280
feeling that got weeded out by the time you were there.
677
00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:29.519
It sounds like that was more early to mid two thousands,
678
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.960
when there was a real revolving door and maybe a
679
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.599
big a bigger writing staff of people who had other
680
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:37.400
credentials other than wrestling knowledge.
681
00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.320
Sure, yeah, I can't really say I saw anybody embarrass
682
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.880
themselves with a question or anybody you know, quote unquote
683
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.320
mark out you know, well, you know, I didn't see
684
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.920
any of that. We was all everyone was professional, and
685
00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:54.920
really it was if you weren't, you really weren't going
686
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.960
to last. I mean I literally saw a guy last
687
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.960
one day, and it was because it was a writing assistant.
688
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:03.400
He went in and basically talked about which the kid
689
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.679
was obviously not the brightest in the world. He went
690
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:09.199
on his Twitter account and talked about his experiences of
691
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.920
that day working for WWE, his first day, and now
692
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:14.719
he later claimed that he was hacked. Isn't that what
693
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.519
everybody says? Yes, that's the current angle. I believe it's
694
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:18.320
called the Kurd angle.
695
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:20.920
Decent you know what when you said that, immediately thought
696
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:21.480
a kurd angle.
697
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:25.000
So yes, I was, I was hacked. But you know
698
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.960
he was like I mean, he literally lasted one day.
699
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:28.599
He came in on a Monday and he was gone
700
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:30.280
on a Tuesday.
701
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.000
All right, I got another question for you. Then, I
702
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:33.480
promise we'll take calls and emails, but we got to
703
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:35.159
go to our bottom of the hour break. This will
704
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.239
be short when we get back. More with Kevin Eck
705
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.760
former WWE creative team member twenty eleven to twenty fourteen.
706
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:42.719
If you want to get in line on the phone banks,
707
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:46.199
it is six four six seven to one ninety eight
708
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.000
twenty eight. That's the number you want to call six
709
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.639
four six seven two one ninety eight twenty eight and
710
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:53.480
push one on your touched on phone. If you want
711
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:55.880
to join the program, our email address. If you're at
712
00:35:55.880 --> 00:35:59.000
work or can't call, but do you want to contribute
713
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.199
a question for Kevin, that email address is pw toorch
714
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:09.960
live cast at gmail dot com. If you're listening to
715
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.320
us on the Apple Podcast app, on Spotify or any
716
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.360
other app that allows you to rate our podcast, please
717
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.280
take a moment to give us a five star rating.
718
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:18.880
It really helps us in the algorithm and helps them
719
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.800
know that you recommend us to others. Just look for
720
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.079
a place to rate the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts,
721
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.320
or wherever you're listening to our shows, and please click
722
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.199
that five star rating, and of course, thank you so
723
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:32.239
much for listening. All Right, we're back with Kevin at
724
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.360
WWE creative team member from twenty eleven to twenty fourteen,
725
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:38.760
and we're talking about his experiences there. We'll also touch
726
00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.599
on his thoughts on what's going on currently coming out
727
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:45.599
of WrestleMania, out of Payback, and as we head two
728
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:49.559
Extreme Rules. Last week, by the way, Matt Morgan was
729
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.840
my guest, and he was the guest twice in the
730
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:55.679
last month, and the response to his appearances has been
731
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.440
really positive, people calling for him to be a regular
732
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.440
on the on the show, really interesting insights from him
733
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.960
as a big wrestler, a tall wrestler who spent a
734
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:08.480
lot of years in WWENTNA, talking about the challenges that
735
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:11.960
Baron Corbin and Big Cast and heck even Roman Reigns face,
736
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.639
and some advice for them and just some real fourth
737
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:16.320
right opinions on what's going on today and wrestling. He
738
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:20.079
still follows WWWE closely and NXT and had a lot
739
00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.000
to say about what's going on in NXT, so I
740
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.039
encourage you to check that out. The blueprint. Matt Morgan
741
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:28.760
my guests last week. Other recent guests included Jim Ross
742
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:30.920
and going back to our I think the last writer
743
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:32.280
we had on the show. The last two writers we
744
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.360
had on the show were Matt McCarthy and Ed Ferrara,
745
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:37.360
going back to the late nineteen nineties teaming up with
746
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:39.519
Vincerusso so a lot of interviews you can check out
747
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:42.280
at PW Torch live cast dot com. We have a
748
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.400
grid if you scroll down to the middle of the page,
749
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.239
there's a grid of the latest I think it's six
750
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:48.840
or nine. It's a three by two or three by
751
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:51.639
three grid. I forget because I changed it of the
752
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.679
latest interviews. So that's a good way on demand to
753
00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:55.639
check out the latest interviews if you missed any of them.
754
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.119
And of course Tuesday is the other show I host,
755
00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.000
and that we spend most of our time reviewing RAW.
756
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.280
Travis Bryant was my guest co host this week. A
757
00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:06.679
lot of good feedback for Travis on the program, giving
758
00:38:06.679 --> 00:38:09.199
his feedback on Payback and Raw on Monday night, so
759
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:11.280
check that out. If you haven't yet, you can subscribe
760
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.840
to us of course, in iTunes and just about anywhere
761
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:17.079
that podcasts are available. All right, let's go to our
762
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.400
first phone call and go to Eric code six six one,
763
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:22.960
first six six one. Please state your name and where
764
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:24.000
you're calling from.
765
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:26.360
This is John from Delano, California.
766
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:27.880
Hey, John, thanks for calling. What have you got for
767
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:28.480
Kevin today?
768
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:30.639
Oh? Hey, how's it going? Way to Kevin?
769
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.400
Good?
770
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:32.079
Good?
771
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:36.440
Okay, Now, Kevin, were you were you involved in any
772
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:43.280
SmackDown writing in early twenty twelve? Yes, okay, I A,
773
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:45.400
I have a I think this is a good question,
774
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:49.280
but it's the Cody Rhodes is stuck in a silly
775
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:52.280
gimmick going nowhere, and Wade Barrett is seemingly on his
776
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:55.280
way out. There was a time in early twenty twelve
777
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.280
where Roads and Barry it seemed like they were on
778
00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.199
their way to main event pushes, even being the last
779
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:03.000
two survivors on Team Barry versus Tim Wrion had Survivor
780
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:07.000
Series twenty twelve. Barrett broke his arm and Cody started
781
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.159
driving the big show, losing his IC title. Do you
782
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:13.719
know who has originally planned for them? I?
783
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.559
Don't know. It's hard for me to pinpoint that time
784
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:18.880
period and what the original plans were, but I can
785
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.239
tell you this, he sort of hit on it a
786
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.960
little bit. With Wade is people were high on Wade,
787
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.840
but he had bad luck with injuries. It seemed like
788
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:28.840
every time he would he would start to get hot,
789
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:30.800
that he would get hurt and have to take time off.
790
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:33.800
And I think when that starts to happen for a
791
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.719
guy in his position on the card, I think the
792
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.039
higher up started start to lose a little bit of
793
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.400
faith in that person. And that seemed to me that's
794
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:45.880
I thought that was the biggest roadblock that Wade had,
795
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:49.239
was just he couldn't stay healthy, and anytime you got
796
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:50.880
behind him and it started to give him a push,
797
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.840
he would get hurt. But obviously Wade has a lot
798
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.519
of talent, and he had a lot of people in
799
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:58.199
the writing room, and I was one of them. I
800
00:39:58.280 --> 00:39:59.840
was right at the top of the list who thought
801
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:02.760
should have been world champion at some point. But again,
802
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:07.440
timing for him just wasn't the greatest. Cody Rhodes is
803
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:11.719
a little bit of a different kind of case because
804
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:17.840
for whatever reason, Vince just doesn't see the it factor
805
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:23.199
in Cody. When Cody had the mask and the you know,
806
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:25.639
was doing the thing with the bags. I think that
807
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.239
was when Vince started to notice he could he could
808
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:31.159
be a character. But that thing kind of ran its
809
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.519
course and then it was like I didn't really know
810
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.079
where to go next. Like I said, Vince just never
811
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:38.440
really saw him as a guy who could really break
812
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.880
through out of the mid card. The hope was that
813
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:45.639
the Stardust character could do that, and Vince got excited
814
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:50.440
about Stardust. And if you'll recall on TV at the time,
815
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:53.159
you would they they've eased up on it a little bit,
816
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.280
but we were actually told never never mentioned Cody Rhods ever. Again,
817
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:00.199
Vince didn't want to hear the name Cody Rhodes. He
818
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.360
didn't want the announcers to say it, he didn't want
819
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:05.000
us to write it many promos. He wanted the audience
820
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.760
to forget that Cody Rhodes ever existed. And this has
821
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:11.760
starred us now because again Vince's opinion of Cody just
822
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:15.079
was good wrestler, hell of a hand, you know, that
823
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:19.440
whole thing, but not somebody that people. He didn't find
824
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.679
him that entertain and that's ultimately why Cody never got
825
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:24.599
maybe as big of a push as he should have gotten.
826
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:28.039
John any follow.
827
00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:32.000
Up, Well, that probably seems that probably tells us why
828
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:33.880
Cody was really getting mad at the fans for a
829
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:37.760
chatting Cody. Huh, yeah, well he started to play into
830
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:39.639
it there. Yeah. Yeah, you're not gonna you're not going
831
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:42.239
to control what the fans are gonna chance. So but yeah,
832
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.360
Cody was uh, he embraced the whole start, like Cody's not.
833
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:47.480
Cody's a very smart guy. Yeah, and I think he
834
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:49.360
sort of sensed where he was in the company, and
835
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:51.760
you know, he follows direction. He just wants to make it.
836
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:55.119
You know, he Vince doesn't like Cody Rhoades the character,
837
00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:57.159
then I'll be starred us and I'll embrace it and
838
00:41:57.159 --> 00:41:58.639
do the best I can with it. And that's what
839
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.880
he did. He really immersed himself in the character. And
840
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:04.880
Cody's a creative guy. He had his own ideas the thing,
841
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:07.920
and also very coachable, you know, easy guy to work with.
842
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.559
And I know a lot of us there, everyone who
843
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:13.000
knew Cody was rooting for Cody to make it. Yeah,
844
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:16.000
and you know, it's just it's a shame that he
845
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.480
seems to be back in a not an enviable position again,
846
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.159
which I worry about with If I startus wasn't going
847
00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.000
to be the thing to get him over and vince
848
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:27.960
his eyes. Then I'm a little worried about what could
849
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:29.519
be next as far as his development.
850
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:31.599
John, do you have a second question for us or
851
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:32.280
should we move on?
852
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:35.400
No, I want to get to the calley, so I'll
853
00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:36.119
let you guys move on.
854
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:37.360
Thanks, thanks for taking my call.
855
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.519
Great, appreciate it. Thanks so much, Kevin. Before we go
856
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.719
on to our first email question and more calls, talk
857
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.800
about what you're doing now post WWE, because you continue
858
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:48.480
to write a wrestling blog. You talked about that at
859
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:50.679
the beginning of the show that that's where your roots are.
860
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:52.599
You were both a pro wrestling fan and wanted to
861
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.480
be a sportswriter and and fulfilled both you know, jobs
862
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.000
in both industries. H So talk about that, and then
863
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.920
also you have no left wrestling entirely, You've still got
864
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:05.320
some involvement, and talk about the direction that you're going
865
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:06.440
post ww in that.
866
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:11.599
Regard to sure, Yeah, appreciate you ask you that after
867
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:15.199
I left WWD was the summer of twenty fourteen. It
868
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:19.320
was August after that, being so immersed in it and
869
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:21.119
being in that bubble for three years, I kind of
870
00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:22.519
just wanted to get away from it a little bit.
871
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:25.039
So I have to be honest, I didn't watch. I
872
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:28.719
started watching sporadically, but not every week, or I would
873
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:30.840
tape rawl on Monday and not get around to watching
874
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.519
it till maybe like Thursday. Like it wasn't as important
875
00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.039
to me as it once was. But once it started
876
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:39.039
getting around wrestle Mania time, that following year is when
877
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.599
you know, my interest started to peak again. And that's
878
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.519
when I started writing the blog, which is it's called
879
00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:50.559
The X Factor and it's available at kevinck Wrestling dot
880
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:53.519
sportsblog dot com. I know that's kind of long, so
881
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:56.199
you can always just google X Factor Kevin x Wrestling
882
00:43:56.199 --> 00:43:57.519
and it'll it'll come up.
883
00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.440
So I'll tweet it too for people to follow on Twitter,
884
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:02.079
so we we can just go quick too.
885
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.559
So yeah, I started that in March of last year,
886
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:06.760
so I've been doing it for a little over a
887
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:09.119
year now, and you know, it's great. It's an outlet
888
00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:11.920
for me to you know, stay keep a hand in
889
00:44:11.960 --> 00:44:14.239
it and still write about it and voice my opinions.
890
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.880
So again, you know, writing is my passion. Wrestling is
891
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:20.559
my passion, so it was just a matter of time
892
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:22.559
before I got back into it. And the other thing
893
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.840
I'm doing is working with Maryland Championship Wrestling, which is
894
00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:28.559
I'm biased, but I have to say it really is
895
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:31.719
one of the best run independent companies I think in
896
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:34.800
the country. A guy named Dan McDevitt owns it and
897
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.519
he's been in the business for a long time, really
898
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:41.760
knows what he's doing, very smart with his expectations for
899
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:45.159
the company, and you know, he's brought in people like
900
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:50.280
Rick Flair, Shawn Michaels, I'm Mick Foley, Kevin a countless
901
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:54.440
others for appearances and is also really breeding the young talent.
902
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:57.639
Patrick Clark from Tough Enough Fame came up through the
903
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.199
MCW school. Leo Rush the Ring of Honor Star Now
904
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.760
came up through the MCW training Center, So really good
905
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.159
things going on there, and I got an opportunity there
906
00:45:08.199 --> 00:45:10.920
to be a performer, which was the one aspect of
907
00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:15.280
the business I'd never done. I pitched an idea to
908
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:17.679
be a heel manager, basically playing off my time in
909
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:21.199
WWE as sort of being the bitter ex writer. He's
910
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.000
going to try to prove to everyone that he's a
911
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:27.519
creative genius and sort of inject the campier side of
912
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:33.119
WWE entertainment into MCW. And that's been a lot of fun.
913
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:36.079
You know, I've gotten to work with some great people there,
914
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.480
great people at MCW, but also some legends. You know.
915
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:42.679
I probably one of the greatest experiences of my wrestling
916
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:44.880
life and probably life in general, was that I was
917
00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:48.800
the final guest in Piper's Pit. We did a Piper's
918
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:53.119
Pit in Maryland, and you know, unfortunately Roddy died a
919
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:54.920
couple of weeks later, so I will go down as
920
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.920
the half guest. But to work with Roddy in that environment,
921
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.840
I mean, just Roddy and I in a ring with
922
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:05.360
two microphones and verbally sparring with a guy who I
923
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.719
idolized as a teenager was uh. I mean, this was
924
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.440
just a dream come true. So I'm having a lot
925
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.199
of fun doing that. I'm one of the most hated
926
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.199
guys in Maryland and uh, and it's just it's fantastic.
927
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.440
That's amazing, that's uh, that's pretty cool that I understand
928
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:23.440
taking some time off right afterwards and you know, maybe
929
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.599
ross sitting on the DVR for a few days I mean,
930
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:28.559
I I'm like that, when you know, the my favorite
931
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.400
sports team gets knocked out of the playoffs, it's hard
932
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:32.639
for me to watch the playoffs. I can imagine being
933
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:36.920
immersed in that actual industry and maybe not having the
934
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:40.639
same enthusiasm for just immediately following it. But as occurs,
935
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.760
I think with a lot of people who are lifelong fans,
936
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.239
it's it's tough to stay away forever or for very long.
937
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.239
Oh go ahead, Yeah, no, I was just gonna say,
938
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.800
you're absolutely right, Jeff. Jeff Jarrett said this to me
939
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:54.679
one time, and I know I've seen in other interviews.
940
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:57.280
It's like the Hotel California. Yeah, you can check in,
941
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.199
but you can never check out. You're in it full life.
942
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:03.000
You talked about Cody, and I just jotted down a
943
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:05.280
note that Cody one thing that he does when he
944
00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:09.320
does a gimmick is he goes all in, and I
945
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:12.280
mean he is when I watched Chartist. I mean, I
946
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:17.440
don't necessarily, I don't necessarily believe that is the character
947
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.400
that will help Cody get much higher than he already is,
948
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:22.480
because I think it's a type of character Vince likes
949
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.679
to have on shows. But it's not the type of
950
00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:28.039
character that tends to make seven figures and headline serious
951
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:33.320
title matches. That said, I admire and chuckle at hall
952
00:47:33.639 --> 00:47:36.159
how all in he is on that gimmick, and he's
953
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:38.360
been that way for everything he's done, and I admire
954
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.440
the hell out of that. Talk about the importance of that,
955
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.519
and maybe as it relates to other characters, not exactly
956
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:47.960
the same as Stardust, but in the same realm, A
957
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:51.239
brtus Clay, a fond Dongo, people that you were around
958
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.159
during their formation and their rise and in some cases
959
00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:56.800
being cooled off. How important is it to Vince that
960
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.440
if a character gets approved or launched, that the person
961
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.119
playing it gives him the impression that they're all in
962
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:05.400
on it, and describe some instances where guys were or
963
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:05.719
were not.
964
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:09.440
Yeah, I mean it's everything to Vince, is you know?
965
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:13.239
I think he looks at it as we're putting our time,
966
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:16.280
we're devoting valuable TV time to you, our creative time,
967
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:19.119
and obviously we see something in you and this is
968
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:21.559
what we feel is best for you. And yeah, he
969
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:24.199
expects you to embrace it and to run with it.
970
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:27.239
And one of the names you mentioned is the first
971
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:29.840
example that comes to mind for me is as a
972
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:33.119
guy who didn't embrace it, his Brotus Clay. And that's
973
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:37.079
the reason Brotus isn't there anymore, because you know, I
974
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:40.960
think everyone, myself included Saal Brotus, when we knew he
975
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.000
was coming onto the main roster as a monster heel.
976
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:46.599
You know, I think we all saw dour signs in
977
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:48.639
our eyes. And here's a guy we're going to build
978
00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:50.480
up as a monster and he's going to headline pay
979
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:52.960
per views against John Cena and the top baby faces.
980
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:56.159
And Vince likes to look at things outside the box
981
00:48:56.519 --> 00:48:59.800
all the time. And Vince had a saying, is like, well, yeah,
982
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:04.199
but any sing and dance, and then brous Brotus Clay's case,
983
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:06.920
he meant it literally, you know, He's like, Okay, sure
984
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.760
we could, we could do the obvious thing and with
985
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:13.320
his look and his size and making the monster heel,
986
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.920
but let's not do what if we went the other
987
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:19.079
way and and you know, make the sky kind of
988
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:24.159
our entertaining big man dancing bear. And I think you
989
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.159
know a lot of us were kind of scratching our heads.
990
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:29.440
But once we got into it, and once we started,
991
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.639
you know, the machine kind of got behind him, and
992
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:33.880
you know, we got the music involved and the look
993
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.920
and everything else. I remember when he would come out
994
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.280
during rehearsals before, you know, when there was an empty
995
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:44.480
arena before the live crowd would come in. Seeing him
996
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:48.039
come out and with Naomi and Cameron and the whole presentation,
997
00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:49.800
I thought, my god, this is this is one of
998
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:54.000
those examples of Vince's genius, I make no bones about it.
999
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:56.880
I was like, this is gonna work, This is really
1000
00:49:56.920 --> 00:49:58.760
going to get over, and Brotus is going to be
1001
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.519
a much bigger star playing this character than he ever
1002
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:06.239
would have been as a monster heel. But for whatever reason,
1003
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:10.239
you know, Brotus, I think he embraced it to a point,
1004
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:12.960
but he was never all in. He was never one
1005
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:16.840
hundred percent into it. And Vince sensed that. And and
1006
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.639
Vince as much as he loved the Brotus play dancing character.
1007
00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:24.280
As you'll remember, he had a huge entrance at WrestleMania
1008
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:27.400
with all the dancing mamas, and that just goes to
1009
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.239
show how much Vince was behind the character. And I
1010
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:33.280
think Vince gets very disappointed if he doesn't seem that
1011
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:36.199
same commitment from the talent, and probably rightfully so. He
1012
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.280
didn't sense it from Brodus. I think the more he
1013
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:41.800
watched Brotus work in the ring, there was a perception
1014
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:46.480
that maybe he didn't all he was sometimes lazy, seemed
1015
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:49.679
to beginning in more shape, you know, picking up more weight,
1016
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.639
and Vince just immediately you know at that point he's
1017
00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.960
he's done with you. And you know, that's why the
1018
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.880
Brotus Clay character slid down the totem pole, and that's
1019
00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:01.960
why I brought his Clays no longer in WWE. So
1020
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:04.639
he's the first example that comes to mind. You know,
1021
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:08.559
a guy like Fandango, Vince another guy Vince was really
1022
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:13.920
really behind Vince totally. Vince's idea to have Chris Jericho
1023
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:18.480
face fandangot WrestleMania and put Fandango over. I don't think
1024
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:21.440
there was one other person there and creative who thought
1025
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.719
that was a good idea, But that was all Vince,
1026
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.119
and that again just goes to show the high hopes
1027
00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:28.199
he had for the character. He worked a lot with
1028
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:32.760
Fandango directly, as far as his speech and the drawn
1029
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:36.800
out fond don I'll never forget seeing Vince say no, no,
1030
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:40.840
it's fine, you know, and making Johnny Curtis say it
1031
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:43.840
over and over until he got it. And I don't
1032
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.280
think it was necessarily that Johnny didn't embrace it. I
1033
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:49.639
think he did, you know. I'm not really sure what
1034
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:54.480
happened there with why Vince lost interest in it. I
1035
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:57.760
think as Vince lost interest, though, I think I think
1036
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:04.360
Johnny Curtis became aware that his position was the sort
1037
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:06.000
of not going to be what he thought it would
1038
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:08.320
be when the character first started, and I think maybe
1039
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:09.800
at that point he might have lost some of his
1040
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:13.039
enthusiasm for it. That's just my opinion. I don't know
1041
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.280
whether that's really the Johnny would have to speak to
1042
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:15.800
that himself.
1043
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:19.920
But I always get nervous when a character disappears and
1044
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:23.519
that is reintroduced with the same act, but the new
1045
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:25.480
and improved version, you know, and the announcers pay a
1046
00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:28.920
little lip service to it, and I just the new
1047
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:31.440
and improved version of something that isn't fresh and new
1048
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:34.159
in Vince's eyes. To me, it's just an acknowledgment that
1049
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:38.079
something was wrong before, and odds are, despite lip service
1050
00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:40.639
that it's new and improved, it's going to fade pretty
1051
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:43.719
quickly to superstars or just disappear, and it seems like
1052
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:45.400
that's happened like twice with Londango.
1053
00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:49.239
Absolutely, and the new and improved fn Dongo was basically
1054
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.000
he went from being a ballroom dancer right to a
1055
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:55.920
salsa dancer. I think, yeah, loads of mende as a
1056
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:59.480
dance partner, but it was still the same character. And yeah,
1057
00:52:59.559 --> 00:53:02.840
anytime the new and improved comes back, it's you know,
1058
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:04.000
it's really.
1059
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:07.559
Not yeah exactly. I want to get a quick plug
1060
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:11.000
in for my VP membership here at PW Torch, and
1061
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:15.280
then we'll do some emails and phone calls. Admit it.
1062
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:17.159
You love Nick Barbatty when he co hosts with me
1063
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:19.159
on the Wadekeller Post shows. Well, now you can listen
1064
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:21.800
to him every week on The Nickys Club, a VIP
1065
00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:24.239
exclusive podcast. Here's Nick to tell you more.
1066
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:26.719
Hey, wrestling fans, It's Nick Barbatty, and I'm back with
1067
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.920
the Nicky's Club, the place where the family of Nicky's
1068
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:31.800
comes together for big laughs and sharp takes on WWE
1069
00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:34.880
for WrestleMania rumors, to surprise returns. I got you covered,
1070
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:37.239
the Nicky's Club where the wrestling feels like the coolest
1071
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:37.800
club in town.
1072
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:39.880
Nick Barbatty wants to be part of your pro wrestling
1073
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:42.719
life every week, So why not let him go vip
1074
00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:46.239
pw torch dot com slash go vip for full details
1075
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:49.760
on signing up. We're compatible with patreons, Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
1076
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:52.199
and just about any other iOS or Android app out there.
1077
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.960
You also stream directly from our ad free VIP website,
1078
00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:57.480
The Nicky's Club waiting for you every week at PW
1079
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:02.039
Torch vip. All right, back with Kevin X speaking to writers,
1080
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:06.000
and we will let's actually go to an email question
1081
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:12.280
now and we'll begin with Matt d who goes, hey, guys, Kevin,
1082
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.480
if any idea what it all happened with the creative
1083
00:54:15.480 --> 00:54:19.239
for the CMPUNK Triple H Kevin Nash stuff in twenty eleven.
1084
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:21.760
Was it just over Nash's medical issues or was it
1085
00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:25.320
an idea they jumped without any real plan in place
1086
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:27.320
for it came across on TV as something they were
1087
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:28.800
actually lost on what to do with.
1088
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:31.679
And let me my recollection.
1089
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:34.639
Your Miike on but I already did so I apologize,
1090
00:54:34.639 --> 00:54:36.599
Go ahead, Yeah.
1091
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.079
My recollection is that it really was Kevin Nash's medical
1092
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.360
issues that's that got in the way, and that Kevin
1093
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:46.079
wasn't medically clear to do anything physical. I don't really
1094
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:49.880
recall what the actual plans were beyond that as far
1095
00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.000
as you know what matches were going to take place
1096
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:54.920
or when, But my recollection is it was it was
1097
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.199
strictly a medical issue.
1098
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.159
Talk a little bit more about the Sampunk saga and
1099
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:05.679
how you reacted to both his rise and your impression
1100
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:08.400
of his departure and what was like in WWE when
1101
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:11.960
he left, and just to add to it, comment in
1102
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:16.039
there also your opinion on CM Punk and what his
1103
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:18.800
reputation was and how you felt about that in terms
1104
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:21.519
of fitting into the way that WWE did. Thinks because
1105
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:28.000
he was he was such an individual, unabashedly, uncompromisingly an
1106
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:32.800
individual in a company that I think values team players
1107
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:37.119
who will compromise and form fit to the corporate environment
1108
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:40.880
that the McMahons want. So yeah, elaborate on that.
1109
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:42.920
Well.
1110
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:45.480
When I started with the company in twenty eleven, Punk
1111
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:48.800
was probably the hottest character in the business at that point,
1112
00:55:48.880 --> 00:55:51.880
and I was a huge CM Punk fan as a
1113
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:55.920
wrestling fan. I thought his character was unique and he
1114
00:55:55.960 --> 00:56:00.239
was the coolest guy on TV. Now, having worked with him,
1115
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:02.480
I always kind of say this, I love to see
1116
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:06.639
him punk character I didn't always love working with Phil Brooks. Yeah,
1117
00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:09.960
And you know, I think probably anybody who spent a
1118
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:13.039
significant amount of time around him would say that. You know,
1119
00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:15.079
and I think he says this himself, is that he
1120
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:18.480
can be a difficult guy to deal with. Sometimes he's great.
1121
00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:21.119
Sometimes you catch him in the right mood, and he
1122
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:23.519
was very he's funny, he's cracking jokes, and he's a
1123
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:25.559
great guy to work with. But there were plenty of
1124
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:30.400
other times where he wasn't that friendly or welcoming or
1125
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:33.039
all right, let's you know, let's get this over with
1126
00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:35.519
kind of thing. And I had some of those experiences
1127
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:39.159
with him as well. I don't think it surprised anyone
1128
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:43.239
when he left, because I mean, honestly, he was threatening
1129
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:45.239
to quit. It seems like every other week he was
1130
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:47.800
he was saying to whether it was Hunter or Michael
1131
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.400
Hayes or somebody, that he was upset and he was
1132
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.360
taking the ball and going home, so to speak. So
1133
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:54.719
I don't I think we all knew it was going
1134
00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:57.480
to come at some point, we just didn't know exactly when.
1135
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:01.840
No matter how high he got on the cart or
1136
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:03.599
how big of a star he was, he just always
1137
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.119
struck me or how much money he made. He always
1138
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.280
struck me as a guy who who was never happy.
1139
00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:11.800
You know, he was just never completely satisfied or happy
1140
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:15.039
with where he was at the time, you know, or
1141
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:17.360
what he was what he was doing. And one of
1142
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:21.119
my colleagues described him as the kid in school who
1143
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:24.800
you know, wanted to be the lead in the play,
1144
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.599
but always you know, only got like the second best
1145
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.360
part because you know, he wanted to be in John
1146
00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:33.320
Steena's position. He wanted to headline WrestleMania and be the
1147
00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:37.119
guy rather than being the number two guy. And I
1148
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:38.800
can't blame him for that in a sense. I mean
1149
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:40.639
it's we should all aspire to be the best at
1150
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:44.440
what we do. But you know, Sina wasn't going to
1151
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:46.639
be knocked off the perch at that point. And and
1152
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:49.840
Sena say what you want about him, but John Cena
1153
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:53.599
was a bigger ratings drawl. John Cena was a bigger
1154
00:57:53.639 --> 00:57:55.400
live event drawl to see him Punk, And we had
1155
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:57.920
the numbers that kind of showed that that when Sina
1156
00:57:58.039 --> 00:57:59.880
was on a show versus a show, that that Punk
1157
00:57:59.960 --> 00:58:01.639
was headline for live events.
1158
00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:01.679
Go.
1159
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.760
So I just you know, Punk was a guy who
1160
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:10.320
just never seemed happy. I admired his independent spirit, I
1161
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:12.920
admired his confidence in himself, and you know, there were
1162
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:15.239
a lot of things to admire about him. But I
1163
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.519
think in some ways he just needn't endear himself to
1164
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:19.199
very many people. I don't think he cared about him
1165
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:20.360
endearing people.
1166
00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:23.599
The impression I go with with with CM Punk is
1167
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:26.880
that a lot of people aspire I think highlie themselves.
1168
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:31.320
They have confidence, they have a swagger, they believe in themselves,
1169
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:35.920
and us have high aspirations, but don't give off the
1170
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.679
vibe that you're a complete fing idiot and who if
1171
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:42.000
you don't agree with him? And and I think that
1172
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:46.880
was Punk's reputation and well earned that there was like
1173
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:50.239
almost a disgust that I mean for people I've talked to,
1174
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.320
and I think you can even hear it and uh
1175
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.480
in in the Colt Cabana podcast that he did, which
1176
00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:58.440
was riveting and and a lot that I admire and
1177
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:00.280
agree with on him, but certain things I disagree with.
1178
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:02.480
But I think he gave gave off to people who
1179
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:06.320
didn't know a pretty good idea of of why I
1180
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:11.760
think he pushed people away, sometimes either intentionally or unintentionally
1181
00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:14.519
in a way that was counterproductive to his aspirations to
1182
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.280
be a headline full time guy. Does that seem like
1183
00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:22.159
a fair assessment that more than most if you disagreed
1184
00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:24.400
with more than with most people, that if you disagreed
1185
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:27.639
with Punk, he gave you, he gave you the impression
1186
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.559
that you were just kind of an idiot and a
1187
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:32.800
worthless human being who didn't know what you were talking about.
1188
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:34.840
And I might be overstating it a little bit there.
1189
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.360
But I don't think it's overstating it too much. I
1190
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:39.639
think it's close. And I think he was a guy
1191
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.280
who who didn't suffer fools, and I thought a lot
1192
00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:45.119
of people were fools. I don't know whether they were
1193
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:48.119
or not. He was just, you know, And I think
1194
00:59:48.119 --> 00:59:51.000
he kind of he's never apologized for that, Like I
1195
00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:53.599
think he would say, I'm I'm kind of a jerk,
1196
00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:55.239
you know, and that's just who I am.
1197
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:57.599
But then on the on the realifications of it in
1198
00:59:57.599 --> 00:59:59.039
the real world, I mean, that's my problem with him.
1199
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.159
I think there's an immature on his part that thinks
1200
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:06.360
you get to have your attitude, but you don't have
1201
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:09.840
a realistic notion of how in the real world dealing
1202
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:14.079
with actual diverse human beings that the result of being
1203
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:18.800
so uncompromising in your beliefs can actually work against your
1204
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:22.280
goals happening. And he seemed less attuned to that than
1205
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.480
almost any person I've covered in this industry.
1206
01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:27.880
Yeah, for sure. And you know, like I said a
1207
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:29.599
little bit earlier about him wanting to be the top
1208
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:32.480
guy and sort of being the John cena Is that
1209
01:00:33.079 --> 01:00:34.920
a lot of people believe he couldn't be the John
1210
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:38.000
cena just because of his personality. Yeah, you know, there's
1211
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:42.000
John Cena is is is on you know, twenty four
1212
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:44.519
to seven and whether it's the make a Wish stuff
1213
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:46.599
for you know, just the way he represents the business
1214
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:48.039
when he goes on a talk show, it makes a
1215
01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:50.760
personal appearance. I remember distinctly we had a meeting at
1216
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:53.360
one point because you know, as much as Vince loves
1217
01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:55.559
Sena and sees his value, he's always looking ahead to
1218
01:00:55.559 --> 01:00:57.599
who's going to be the next guy and who should
1219
01:00:57.599 --> 01:00:59.800
we start grooming and you know, who can fill that position?
1220
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:02.239
And we had a meeting about that one time. And
1221
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.639
you know he also wanted, like who's cool We need
1222
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.679
to find, like who's our next guy? And like we
1223
01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:11.880
need the cool factor and I spoke up and I said,
1224
01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:14.119
the coolest guy we have on our rosters, see him Punk,
1225
01:01:14.840 --> 01:01:16.559
and you know, maybe he could be that. And I
1226
01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:18.480
remember Hunter was in that meeting and he weighed in
1227
01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:21.920
immediately and said, Punk can't be that guy that goes
1228
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:24.320
out and it's like he's just not in him, Like
1229
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:26.559
he's just not that kind of personality. He can't go
1230
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:29.800
out and be charming and do all those things. And
1231
01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:32.239
I said, well, play Devil's advocate. What if we put
1232
01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:34.039
that confidence in him and said hey, we want you
1233
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:36.400
to be that guy? Would that inspire him? And he
1234
01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:39.039
just said, hey, you can't. Hunter's point was you can't
1235
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:40.760
change who you are, and it's just not in him.
1236
01:01:41.320 --> 01:01:43.480
And the funny thing is the guy we ended up
1237
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:47.960
sort of making the next cool guy was what came
1238
01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:50.480
out of that meeting was Seamus. You know, was was
1239
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:53.880
that Seamus does have that personality, Seamus gets it, Seamus
1240
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:56.079
is a charming guy, Seamous can glad hand in that
1241
01:01:56.159 --> 01:01:59.719
whole thing. And and let's get behind Seamus. And like
1242
01:01:59.800 --> 01:02:01.880
I I loved him personally. You know, he was a
1243
01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:04.880
great guy, great guy to work with, talented in the ring,
1244
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:07.880
but I just I don't think he had that same
1245
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.599
charisma or its factor that CM Punk had, or a
1246
01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:13.760
cool factor if anything. I think Seamus had kind of
1247
01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.280
the anti cool factor, you know, and there's a guy.
1248
01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:18.880
You know, we put a lot of our energies behind
1249
01:02:18.920 --> 01:02:21.199
Seamus at that point. I'm sure you could tell from
1250
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:23.840
watching on TV back in those days. But yeah, Punk
1251
01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:26.119
was just a guy who in many ways was his
1252
01:02:26.199 --> 01:02:29.559
own worst enemy. And you know, God bless him. It's
1253
01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:31.360
like he never changed though I've give him that he
1254
01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:34.159
was always true to himself, but whatever that's worth, he
1255
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:36.679
was unapologetic and he was who he was.
1256
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:40.800
And I think Punk provided something that WWE needed but
1257
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:44.360
wouldn't admit fully admit to eating. And that is for
1258
01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:46.599
part of the fan base that watched wrestling to see
1259
01:02:46.639 --> 01:02:49.679
outlaws give their in give the impression that in real
1260
01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:54.960
life they weren't ass kissers of their boss. Seeing Punk
1261
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:56.920
gave off that vibe and there was an because then
1262
01:02:56.920 --> 01:03:00.360
there was an authenticity to it. And in a heavily scripted,
1263
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:04.960
heavily manufactured program, Cmpunk brought in a part of that.
1264
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:07.599
I just talked about this on the vip Keller Hotline Guestorady.
1265
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:10.199
Somebody asked about the cool factor in wrestling, and that
1266
01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:13.800
WWE and Vince mc mann's tendencies are he's going to
1267
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:16.199
have a section of a show that really appeals to kids,
1268
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.280
a section of the promotion, a slice of the of
1269
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:21.679
the characters who get pushed and the personas and the
1270
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:24.480
way they're marketed and the way they're selected and presented
1271
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:26.960
is going to appeal to kids. The age you were
1272
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:28.559
when you became a fan of the Age I was
1273
01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:32.000
the ones who don't look with great scrutiny or cynicism
1274
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:35.280
at what the wrestling company presents. They want to embrace
1275
01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:37.440
it because it's larger than life. Then you get a
1276
01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.519
little bit older, you get into your teen's college years,
1277
01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:43.079
and WWE has this gap and it's not something that
1278
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:46.440
they have a consistent eye for. And then there's people
1279
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:48.239
our age Kevin, who have been fans for a long
1280
01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:52.039
time and we watch sometimes begrudgingly, or begrudging is not
1281
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:55.960
the word, with mixed feelings about the era in or
1282
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.480
the segments that are presented. But it's just part of
1283
01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:00.440
the fabric of your life and your cure to see
1284
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:03.440
where it goes, and you watch it because it's part
1285
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:06.599
of your life, not because it's the coolest thing right
1286
01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:09.719
now to be watching and see him. Punk was that
1287
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:13.199
gap in between the forty to fifty something demo, mid
1288
01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:15.960
thirties and on demo, I guess, and that you know,
1289
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:19.679
early teens demo and Punk was that guy. But it's
1290
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:22.480
tough because how do you have somebody that authentic, who connects,
1291
01:04:22.920 --> 01:04:26.400
who also fits what Vincent Triple H wanted Punk to be.
1292
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.960
Because if he was that person, I think he would
1293
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:31.400
have been less cool on the air, and the fans
1294
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:33.639
who liked him would have seen him as a pretender
1295
01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:35.880
or a phony. So it is a catch twenty two
1296
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:37.840
in that regard. But I think it's a problem that
1297
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:40.880
WWE hasn't found a good solution for at this point. Certainly,
1298
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:42.840
I'm sure there's some people listening kind of chuckling at
1299
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:46.480
the idea that Shamus was the alternative to Punk. I
1300
01:04:46.519 --> 01:04:48.760
think that actually is a good example of how they
1301
01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:49.840
haven't figured it out yet.
1302
01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:53.599
Yeah, I agree. You know what I saw was Punk
1303
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:56.199
two was, you know, we wanted a guy that's going
1304
01:04:56.239 --> 01:04:57.599
to go out there and sort of be the face,
1305
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.920
and like you just said it to like, he sort
1306
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.239
of bridges that gap and he's a cool What I
1307
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:06.719
loved about him was he's got this rebellious spirit to
1308
01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:10.880
him which comes across. But he's like, he's got this
1309
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:13.239
punk rock vibe, you know, seem punk and he's got
1310
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:15.760
the punk rock music and all that, and he's got
1311
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:18.000
all the tattoos, and he looks like a badass. He
1312
01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:21.760
looks cool, but he preaches a straight edge a lifestyle.
1313
01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:25.559
I thought, how great is this that instead of yes,
1314
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:27.719
it's great to have a guy with the square jawl
1315
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:30.039
and you know John Cena to go out there and
1316
01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:32.840
tell kids not to do drugs and you know, be
1317
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:35.559
a role model and all that. But on the other side,
1318
01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:38.199
you know, to reach kids that are a little bit older,
1319
01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:40.599
and you got a guy that looks like CM punk
1320
01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:42.840
who comes out to the cool music and has the
1321
01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:46.119
tats and but says, hey, kids don't do drugs. I thought, man,
1322
01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:48.920
this is this is our guy. But again, I just
1323
01:05:49.760 --> 01:05:52.039
that argument was shot down because it's like he can't
1324
01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:55.039
be that guy. He's just not Yes, it's truly straight edge,
1325
01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:57.079
he doesn't do drugs, but it's just he can't be
1326
01:05:57.159 --> 01:05:59.280
the guy going out there sort of holding himself up
1327
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:01.239
as a role model. Because at the end of the day.
1328
01:06:01.480 --> 01:06:03.440
It's not who he is. It's not going to be
1329
01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:06.320
genuine and it's going to shine through. And look, there
1330
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:09.119
are plenty of stories of you know, over the years
1331
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:12.239
of somebody approaching cmpunk at an airport, you know, and
1332
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:14.760
him blowing them off, and it's like these are times
1333
01:06:14.800 --> 01:06:16.960
when he was a babyface. Yeah, It's like, you can't
1334
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:19.480
be seen by the fans out in an airport or
1335
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:22.119
whatever and just be a total jerk and you're supposed
1336
01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:24.440
to be the good you know, pumps thing always was,
1337
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:27.719
that's my free time. You know, I'm not that guy.
1338
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:30.079
And again that's why he didn't get put in a
1339
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.360
position like that because John Steen is twenty four to
1340
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:35.519
seven and and see him punk. You know, couldn't make
1341
01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:36.800
couldn't make that kind of commitment.
1342
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:40.519
You know, that last segment you're just listening to and
1343
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.639
the next one that you're waiting to listen to. Those
1344
01:06:42.719 --> 01:06:45.159
can be one second apart. With a VIP membership, you
1345
01:06:45.159 --> 01:06:48.199
can unlock our commercial free versions of our shows. Pw
1346
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:50.840
torch dot com slash Go vip tells you how to
1347
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:53.960
do it. That's pw torch dot com slash Go VIP
1348
01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:57.840
options exist within the Apple Podcast app using your Apple
1349
01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:00.000
account through Patreon, which, by the way, you can say
1350
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:03.480
cup with Spotify or just about any iOS or Android app.
1351
01:07:03.559 --> 01:07:06.440
With a full VIP membership, you can customize the feed
1352
01:07:06.440 --> 01:07:09.760
for individual shows and clusters of shows and themes. Go
1353
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.719
to pw torch dot com slash go vip for full
1354
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:15.639
details on all the options to listen commercial free and
1355
01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:19.960
with upper tier options unlock our VP exclusive podcast run
1356
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:24.039
throughout the week every week. Let's go to our next
1357
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:26.039
phone call here, Eric code eight Kevin. By the way,
1358
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:28.000
I did not lock down how long you had with us,
1359
01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:30.039
so I don't want to put you in a tough position.
1360
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:32.159
Are you okay staying with us for several more minutes
1361
01:07:32.199 --> 01:07:34.840
and take some more okay? Great? Yeah, sure, yeah, we
1362
01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:36.719
got a good flowgo in here. Let's go to eight
1363
01:07:36.760 --> 01:07:38.239
on one. Next eight on one, Please state your name
1364
01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.159
in the city you're calling from.
1365
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:42.840
This is Derek from Utah.
1366
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:45.639
Hey, Derek, good here from you. I was a good caller.
1367
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:46.760
What have you got for us?
1368
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:49.159
Oh?
1369
01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:49.719
Well, I thought you.
1370
01:07:49.880 --> 01:07:51.639
I think you guys are having a great discussion on
1371
01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:54.280
that cool factor, which I think a lot of times
1372
01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:59.039
in the last ten years in WWE specifically has been missing,
1373
01:07:59.639 --> 01:08:02.760
and I wonder on the current roster with the current
1374
01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:05.000
group of guys, and they're calling it a new era,
1375
01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:07.480
And I think right now people are looking for reasons
1376
01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:09.840
why it's not a new era, But I think there's
1377
01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:12.199
just as many reasons. If you're looking for it. You
1378
01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:14.239
can say it is a new era because you have
1379
01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:19.760
fresh faces and fresh matchups, which is exactly what they're advertising.
1380
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:23.279
But on today's current roster, I wonder what both you
1381
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:26.079
and Kevin Finke, is there a restaurant on the roster
1382
01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:29.159
who has that cool factor who can be the face
1383
01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:33.800
of the company in a very I hesitate to use
1384
01:08:33.840 --> 01:08:36.319
the word corporate way, but still present it in a
1385
01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:40.079
cool way where it appeals to a younger demographic.
1386
01:08:41.680 --> 01:08:46.119
That's a great question. It's the very It's it's the
1387
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:49.800
million dollar or the billion dollar question, almost, Kevin, the
1388
01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:53.000
ven diagram is what WW is looking for. Somebody who's
1389
01:08:53.039 --> 01:08:57.600
cool and corporate, and there's an overlap, not so much
1390
01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:00.840
that fans catch on to it, not so much that
1391
01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:03.000
corporate can't really deal with them. There's enough of an
1392
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:05.279
overlap that they can actually serve both purposes. And that's
1393
01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:06.680
that's been tough for them to find.
1394
01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:10.800
There's no doubt about it, and there's no magic formula
1395
01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:14.600
for it. Obviously, you know the times. It's funny. Sometimes
1396
01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:17.479
things catch on when you don't necessarily expect it. Steve
1397
01:09:17.479 --> 01:09:19.960
Austin came in as the ring master, right, nobody expected
1398
01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:22.479
him to be the one of the biggest stars of
1399
01:09:22.479 --> 01:09:25.279
all time, and it happened, not because it was something
1400
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:27.720
dreamed up in a boardroom, but something that Steve Austin
1401
01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:30.399
thought of himself and then the company got behind. So
1402
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:33.119
there's no magic formula to it. But you know, I
1403
01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:36.319
think a guy like Dean Ambrose is close. I think
1404
01:09:36.399 --> 01:09:38.600
Dean's a pretty cool guy. I don't know whether he'll
1405
01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:41.239
ever be the top guy in the face of the company.
1406
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:43.119
I don't know if they see him in that regard.
1407
01:09:43.760 --> 01:09:45.079
I think Seth, you know, I'm gonna name all the
1408
01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:47.399
Shield members. I think Seth rollins if he does a
1409
01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:50.279
baby face turn, which he will at some point, maybe
1410
01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:52.760
has some of that cool factor. But I know this
1411
01:09:52.800 --> 01:09:56.159
is going to be real unpopular. But I saw that
1412
01:09:56.199 --> 01:09:59.560
guy as Roman Reigns, just like everybody else in WW
1413
01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:02.279
did it. He was coming up. We looked at Roman
1414
01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:06.840
as man. This guy's got such a look and he's
1415
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.640
a smart guy and his articulate like that's the guy,
1416
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:15.079
this is gonna be the guy that takes the mantle
1417
01:10:15.079 --> 01:10:19.000
from John Cena down the line, and it's it's really
1418
01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:22.560
shocked me how much it hasn't worked, To be honest
1419
01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:24.159
with you, I think it's shocked a lot of people
1420
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:26.359
at WW that there was such a rejection of him.
1421
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:28.520
And we could talk forever about that. As to why
1422
01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:31.560
it happened, I think a lot of it was timing circumstances.
1423
01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:33.479
A lot of it had to do with Daniel Bryan
1424
01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:35.439
and where he was at that point in his career.
1425
01:10:36.159 --> 01:10:38.439
But I mean, if you're look at just looking at
1426
01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:41.119
a guy and what everything everything he brings to the table,
1427
01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:44.520
I mean, Roman Reigns has everything that you would want.
1428
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:45.479
In my opinion.
1429
01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:49.319
You know the term I use and I wouldn't repeat
1430
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:51.000
it if I didn't think there was something to it,
1431
01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:53.039
but it was brought up by a caller and it's
1432
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:56.600
been repeated multiple times. He comes across as a d
1433
01:10:56.720 --> 01:11:00.960
bag sometimes, I think to the fans, I think that
1434
01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:04.560
his facial expressions, his body language, the way that he
1435
01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:08.479
interacts with the crowd is in some other zone other
1436
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.920
than what ciampunk found because Punk was a dick but
1437
01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:14.760
not a dbat. And the way he came across but
1438
01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:16.319
in a way that the fans liked it because they
1439
01:11:16.359 --> 01:11:18.840
thought he's on my side. He sees the world the
1440
01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:21.439
way I see it. But Roman Reigns is being pushed
1441
01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:24.119
kind of like John Cena when that very short term
1442
01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:26.319
chain gang term that he used, like when he started
1443
01:11:26.319 --> 01:11:29.159
to really go babyface, you know, the Hulka maniacs, the
1444
01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:34.159
chain gang, and it worked it with Sena the phrase
1445
01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:37.720
I think added to the booze, but the concept he
1446
01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:39.880
was able to execute because John Cena, like you said
1447
01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:42.960
twenty four to seven, loved interacting with the fans, and
1448
01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:47.319
the fans believed that he cared. The fans who liked him,
1449
01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:51.880
I think believed that he liked them also. And with
1450
01:11:51.960 --> 01:11:53.760
Hulk Hogan, I mean I grew up in you know,
1451
01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:57.000
watching Awa when Hulkamania was born, before vinsck Men got
1452
01:11:57.000 --> 01:11:59.199
his hands on it, and you know he came out
1453
01:11:59.199 --> 01:12:01.600
to either the Tiger was a full fleshed out babyface
1454
01:12:01.640 --> 01:12:05.039
gimmick and it was the connection with the crowd on
1455
01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:07.319
the promos and the way he interacted with the fans
1456
01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:10.199
absolutely was magical and there's a reason he made the
1457
01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.000
money he did for himself and everybody who hired him.
1458
01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:15.960
Roman Rains just hasn't found that yet. And I think
1459
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:18.760
he's in some sort of gray zone in between what
1460
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:21.520
you're describing the cool dude that people know who know
1461
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:25.039
him outside of when the cameras are on and see
1462
01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:27.520
what you see, and others have seen in him, and
1463
01:12:27.560 --> 01:12:29.560
you know, Sean Waltman's been on the show and defended
1464
01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:31.840
him and talked about the cool factor and the vibe
1465
01:12:31.880 --> 01:12:33.800
he gives out behind the scenes, but when he gets
1466
01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:35.880
in front of the camera, the way that he's presented,
1467
01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:39.840
I think you tapped into it and or touched on
1468
01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:43.079
it in that he's following John Cena and the expectation
1469
01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:46.199
is b John Cena and to be that guy that
1470
01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:48.560
might not be who he is, and so there's a
1471
01:12:49.079 --> 01:12:53.359
level of inauthenticity to the way he presents himself and
1472
01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:56.640
I think a discomfort. You combine that with Ceampunk, and
1473
01:12:56.680 --> 01:12:59.399
I think it's influential that Ciampunk did this podcast heard
1474
01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:02.199
by millions. I mean, I mean, I mean, I bet
1475
01:13:02.520 --> 01:13:04.880
two million people heard the Punk podcast, and many of
1476
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:06.720
them are at these buildings. The ones who would seek
1477
01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:09.720
out that podcast, and when Punk left, the fans who
1478
01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:13.199
are booing Roman loved Punk and Punk said of that podcast.
1479
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:15.800
In my last months with the company, all I kept
1480
01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.199
hearing over and over is make Roman Rains look good.
1481
01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:20.840
And I think that, in addition to what you pointed
1482
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:22.960
out with Daniel Bryan and the timing of that, I
1483
01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:25.479
think that set the tone to Kevin that people looked
1484
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:27.399
at Rains as, oh God, we were waiting for the
1485
01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:29.399
Sena air to end, and now we're getting another Sena.
1486
01:13:29.680 --> 01:13:32.359
This guy got picked over Punk, and when he comes
1487
01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:34.840
out to the ring, he gives off a vibe that
1488
01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:37.000
he's not one of us and he doesn't want to
1489
01:13:37.039 --> 01:13:39.319
be one of us. So there, I mean, that's my
1490
01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:41.760
little synopsis. I think Roman is going to make a
1491
01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:44.239
lot of money for WWE, but it's been a rocky
1492
01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:46.560
road and I don't think they've fully found his lane yet.
1493
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:50.239
I agree with it just about everything he said, you know,
1494
01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:53.600
and it's still a rocky road and still work in progress.
1495
01:13:53.880 --> 01:13:57.199
I still believe, and maybe it's naive on my part,
1496
01:13:57.239 --> 01:14:01.159
but I think ultimately he's going to get where a
1497
01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:04.199
lot of people in ww myself included, you know, think
1498
01:14:04.279 --> 01:14:07.039
he can get. It's funny that you should say he
1499
01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:09.680
kind of comes off as a d bag, because it
1500
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:13.920
is a disconnect with you know, I've had the fortune
1501
01:14:14.000 --> 01:14:17.600
of actually working with Roman behind the scenes and interacted
1502
01:14:17.640 --> 01:14:19.960
with him, and nothing could be further from the truth.
1503
01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:22.239
I mean, he's he's Look, there are a few d
1504
01:14:22.359 --> 01:14:24.199
bags that were there. Punk is one of them, right,
1505
01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:28.319
a couple others, but Roman was not one of them.
1506
01:14:28.399 --> 01:14:32.239
You know, all three of the Shield guys just had
1507
01:14:32.319 --> 01:14:34.920
such great work ethics and were so easy to work
1508
01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:39.000
with and wanted to succeed and aspired for greatness. And
1509
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.600
but you know, we're all confident, three confident guys, but
1510
01:14:42.680 --> 01:14:45.000
not guys thought they were above anybody or that they
1511
01:14:45.479 --> 01:14:48.600
you know, wouldn't take advice or couldn't take direction. And
1512
01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:52.640
I think with Roman, I think Vince saw the character
1513
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:56.319
as well as kind of a cool, badass type character
1514
01:14:56.399 --> 01:14:59.760
and not a panderin babyface, like not a guy who's
1515
01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:01.960
going to come out and I mean, he's certainly not
1516
01:15:02.439 --> 01:15:05.880
antagonize the audience. But you know, he didn't want to
1517
01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:07.840
be a guy. He didn't want Roman to be a
1518
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:10.199
guy who was out there necessarily with a huge smile
1519
01:15:10.239 --> 01:15:13.079
on his face all the time and pandering and cutting
1520
01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:16.560
funny fish, which rocking. My idea, which I'll get to
1521
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:19.640
in a second, is that to help him get over later.
1522
01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:21.960
It's like Vince was like, God damn, we gotta let
1523
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:24.199
people in and not. You know, then Vince took over
1524
01:15:24.239 --> 01:15:27.399
scripting his promos and he's saying suffering suck attashed, which
1525
01:15:27.439 --> 01:15:29.680
you could clearly tell was just going to have the
1526
01:15:29.720 --> 01:15:32.960
opposite effect, and that Roman was very uncomfortable doing that
1527
01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:34.840
and that's not at all who he was or that
1528
01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:37.279
was not in his comfort zone. So it's like, I
1529
01:15:37.279 --> 01:15:40.000
don't know, people don't want to get behind a pandering babyface,
1530
01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:42.640
so you kind of give him this cool, badass edge,
1531
01:15:42.920 --> 01:15:44.920
but then they don't like that either because you're not
1532
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:47.720
letting him in. So I don't know what the right
1533
01:15:48.079 --> 01:15:50.920
formula is with Roman. I feel like the talent's there,
1534
01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:54.279
the work ethics there, the people are still, the people
1535
01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:57.279
in positions of power are still behind him. I think
1536
01:15:57.760 --> 01:16:00.439
ultimately he's going to get to that spot. But I
1537
01:16:00.439 --> 01:16:02.279
don't see a better guy in WW right now. If
1538
01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:04.039
you said still to this day, look go on the
1539
01:16:04.119 --> 01:16:07.600
roster and tell me who's best suited to carry the
1540
01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:10.560
mantle when John Cena steps down as to face of
1541
01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:13.199
the company. To me, it's still Roman ragn.
1542
01:16:13.399 --> 01:16:16.840
Well, and I don't know. Well, that's the big question.
1543
01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:18.159
You know, what you're about to say, is you know
1544
01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:21.600
who instead of Roman? And that's the question that I've
1545
01:16:21.640 --> 01:16:25.199
never had a confident answer for. I mean, I've got alternatives.
1546
01:16:25.760 --> 01:16:27.479
But when you look at what Vince mc mann is
1547
01:16:27.479 --> 01:16:30.119
looking for and the boxes that he needs checked off
1548
01:16:30.479 --> 01:16:33.079
in order to go all in with somebody as the
1549
01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:36.880
face of the company, you know, Roman hits more of
1550
01:16:36.920 --> 01:16:40.319
them than anybody else. But the problem is Roman is
1551
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:43.600
among the crowd of everybody who don't check enough of
1552
01:16:43.640 --> 01:16:47.760
them right now to be to not The problem with
1553
01:16:47.840 --> 01:16:50.399
Roman is he's in an embarrassing situation because when you're
1554
01:16:50.439 --> 01:16:53.800
not checking all the boxes with the fans who are vocal,
1555
01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:56.439
the Bellweather fans, the ones who are kind of leading
1556
01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:58.800
the way in terms of crowd reaction, the most vocal
1557
01:16:58.800 --> 01:17:03.520
and influential in those lives crowds, it's it's embarrassing because
1558
01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:06.159
those fans look at Roman and I think WWE's that
1559
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:08.600
fall to a degree because they spent so much time
1560
01:17:08.600 --> 01:17:12.520
on television with the authority on television representing the brand
1561
01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:15.880
as heels, and I get the rationale internally for it,
1562
01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:17.560
but I think if they step back, they'd see the
1563
01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:20.680
absurdity of it. Hey, support us, We've got our new network.
1564
01:17:21.039 --> 01:17:24.319
We want you to support WWWE as a brand more
1565
01:17:24.319 --> 01:17:26.199
than anything. We're here to put smiles on your faces
1566
01:17:26.199 --> 01:17:29.800
and entertain you, but we're also going to try to
1567
01:17:29.800 --> 01:17:32.359
get heal heat on two people who are going to
1568
01:17:32.399 --> 01:17:34.680
eat up a lot of TV time and play heels,
1569
01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:39.039
and the pitches support WWE make these two jerks on
1570
01:17:39.079 --> 01:17:42.119
television richer and able to gloat even more about the
1571
01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:44.760
success of the company. It's just it's such a contradiction.
1572
01:17:44.840 --> 01:17:47.039
But their idea was, well, wink wink, we only play
1573
01:17:47.079 --> 01:17:49.119
bad guys on TV. Well, if that's a case in
1574
01:17:49.159 --> 01:17:51.479
the heel heat won't work. It's totally counterproductive because then
1575
01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:53.800
you're asking people to watch wrestling on a meta level
1576
01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:56.600
across the board. Not you know, that's one thing for
1577
01:17:56.640 --> 01:17:59.560
the you know, a five percent slice, But to ask
1578
01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:02.760
them to support a brand that's run by two jerks
1579
01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:06.199
who are doing everything they can to be condescending on
1580
01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:09.039
television week after week is rough. So then you have
1581
01:18:09.199 --> 01:18:12.159
them talking about picking the face of the company, and
1582
01:18:12.199 --> 01:18:15.319
they brought an awareness to something that shouldn't have been
1583
01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:17.520
given a lot of attention. So now you've got a
1584
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:20.319
whole fan base, Kevin, who are thinking about That's right.
1585
01:18:20.359 --> 01:18:23.199
Part of enjoying wrestling is as a fan being part
1586
01:18:23.199 --> 01:18:24.800
of the process of picking who the next face of
1587
01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:27.880
the company's going to be. And you reject Daniel Brian,
1588
01:18:27.920 --> 01:18:30.960
who the fans loved, and you put Roman Reigns in
1589
01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:33.720
that position. And on top of it, Roman rain splits
1590
01:18:33.720 --> 01:18:35.479
off from the Shield, but he keeps the music, keeps
1591
01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:37.840
the entrance, keeps the ring gear, and gets the push
1592
01:18:38.119 --> 01:18:40.880
when the perception among the most ardent fans of the
1593
01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:44.159
Shield were that Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose were carrying
1594
01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:46.039
his green ass for a year and a half. So,
1595
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:50.600
I mean it really, it's why as much as there's blame,
1596
01:18:50.680 --> 01:18:52.920
I think for Roman and some of his reactions, and
1597
01:18:52.960 --> 01:18:55.920
he's been made a lot of boneheaded statements on mainstream
1598
01:18:55.960 --> 01:18:57.399
media interviews. You know, I just do what I'm told
1599
01:18:57.399 --> 01:18:59.960
and hope to get rich. I've improved two thousand percent.
1600
01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:01.399
If you don't see it, you're an idiot. I mean
1601
01:19:01.399 --> 01:19:03.399
it just sometimes when he's not scripted, he is his
1602
01:19:03.399 --> 01:19:07.079
own worst enemy. That said, I think more things were
1603
01:19:07.119 --> 01:19:10.239
circumstantial and out of his hands that got him off
1604
01:19:10.279 --> 01:19:12.159
on a really bad foot. But as I said with
1605
01:19:12.199 --> 01:19:15.039
Steve Austin on Monday, and Steve would believed that he's
1606
01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:17.560
really come a long way. He can have really he
1607
01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:20.079
can carry his end of a really really good match
1608
01:19:20.439 --> 01:19:23.439
with world class workers, and he hasn't gotten to the
1609
01:19:23.439 --> 01:19:24.800
point where he can have a great match on it
1610
01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:27.039
with somebody less than him in the ring. But not
1611
01:19:27.159 --> 01:19:29.399
everybody could have the matches that he's had with Lesnar
1612
01:19:29.479 --> 01:19:30.840
or Brian or aj Styles.
1613
01:19:33.640 --> 01:19:36.640
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
1614
01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:40.119
will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Prograss
1615
01:19:40.119 --> 01:19:43.720
Paradise at Peterwood Torch, vip as we mask on the
1616
01:19:43.720 --> 01:19:46.399
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
1617
01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:50.880
great matches and shows from around the world, be it US, Japan,
1618
01:19:51.199 --> 01:19:54.760
Europe or Mexico. There's always a place for wrestling's past
1619
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:57.920
in the Paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
1620
01:19:57.920 --> 01:20:01.199
such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
1621
01:20:01.199 --> 01:20:04.640
career of Juician thunder Lighter. And I was there when
1622
01:20:04.760 --> 01:20:07.039
shows where our guests will join me to talk about
1623
01:20:07.039 --> 01:20:10.119
a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We
1624
01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:12.760
love variety and you can expect lots of it at
1625
01:20:12.800 --> 01:20:17.800
the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch VIP subscription information on
1626
01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:20.640
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
1627
01:20:20.640 --> 01:20:24.880
pterwrew Torch vip info dot com. And yes, all VIP
1628
01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:28.840
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01:20:28.840 --> 01:20:32.119
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1630
01:20:32.159 --> 01:20:35.800
ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise,
1631
01:20:39.439 --> 01:20:40.319
no question about it.
1632
01:20:40.359 --> 01:20:42.359
And when I the other night at Payback, I heard
1633
01:20:42.439 --> 01:20:46.000
fans channing you can't wrestle at him, and it's like, man,
1634
01:20:46.039 --> 01:20:47.880
I hope, I'm saying to myself, I hope you don't
1635
01:20:47.880 --> 01:20:50.720
really believe that, Like I hope that that's just trying
1636
01:20:50.760 --> 01:20:52.960
to get yourself over, you know, in the crowd and
1637
01:20:53.479 --> 01:20:55.800
doing that because you think it's cool. But if you really,
1638
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:57.920
as a fan, as an observer of this business, you
1639
01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:01.119
believe that Roman Rings can't work, you're an idiot, you know,
1640
01:21:01.159 --> 01:21:04.399
because he obviously does know how to work. It reminds
1641
01:21:04.399 --> 01:21:05.800
me of the whole thing with John Cena. It's like,
1642
01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:07.760
how many great matches do this guy have to have
1643
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:10.840
before you say, you know what, he's pretty good. It's
1644
01:21:10.840 --> 01:21:14.000
just there's a track record and when when Roman Rain
1645
01:21:14.079 --> 01:21:16.479
steps up on the big stage, when at a pay
1646
01:21:16.520 --> 01:21:18.319
per view main event, And yeah, I know he's working
1647
01:21:18.319 --> 01:21:20.760
with great guys like AJ Styles and Daniel Brian and
1648
01:21:20.760 --> 01:21:23.600
so forth. But to your point, he's holding up his end.
1649
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:25.399
Is he going to be able to go out there
1650
01:21:25.520 --> 01:21:28.640
and have a four star match with the big show. No,
1651
01:21:29.079 --> 01:21:30.960
he's not at that level. But you know what, Hunter
1652
01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:32.199
couldn't do it. You know there are other guys that
1653
01:21:32.199 --> 01:21:35.840
couldn't do that either. Roman Rains knows how to work
1654
01:21:36.039 --> 01:21:38.239
and I don't think he's nearly as bad as people
1655
01:21:38.279 --> 01:21:40.479
say his own promos. I know it's kind of like
1656
01:21:40.479 --> 01:21:42.720
a rained apologist, but I just really feel like he
1657
01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:46.159
has all the tools. And I'll go back to the
1658
01:21:46.239 --> 01:21:48.680
Daniel Bryan thing. I think that was a huge blunder
1659
01:21:49.319 --> 01:21:52.720
to have Daniel Brian return for the Royal Rumble. Whether
1660
01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:55.479
if we would have just held off Roman, we would
1661
01:21:55.520 --> 01:21:57.640
have held off Daniel and I'm sorry coming back until
1662
01:21:57.720 --> 01:22:00.399
after the Rumble, I think it would have been a
1663
01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:03.039
different set of circumstances because it doesn't matter if it
1664
01:22:03.079 --> 01:22:05.079
was Roman Rains or anybody else that was in that
1665
01:22:05.119 --> 01:22:08.279
position when the Royal rumble, it wasn't Daniel Bryan. And
1666
01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:10.279
I think whoever won it was going to be put
1667
01:22:10.319 --> 01:22:13.600
in a really, really bad spot, and Roman Rains was
1668
01:22:13.640 --> 01:22:16.720
that guy. But look, I could tell you that Vince
1669
01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:19.640
was Say what you want about him, but Vince was
1670
01:22:19.840 --> 01:22:24.319
very cognizant of not shoving Roman Reigns down people's throats
1671
01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:27.560
as he was offending. There's no doubt about it. When
1672
01:22:27.760 --> 01:22:30.600
when the Shield came up, the long term plan was
1673
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:34.880
internally Roman's going to be the guy, but we didn't
1674
01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:37.399
want to make it that obvious. And we wanted to
1675
01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:40.319
bring along, bring him along slowly, give him big moments
1676
01:22:40.319 --> 01:22:43.920
in matches that people would pop for him, have him
1677
01:22:43.960 --> 01:22:46.920
team up with Seth and let him learn as he's
1678
01:22:46.960 --> 01:22:50.319
working with Seth, And that was the whole idea of
1679
01:22:50.399 --> 01:22:52.399
And Vince every now and then would say to us,
1680
01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:54.199
you know, once we started to break him off the
1681
01:22:54.199 --> 01:22:56.640
shield a little bit, it's like, we're not pushing Roman
1682
01:22:56.680 --> 01:22:58.560
too hard, are we, you know? And we and we
1683
01:22:58.600 --> 01:23:01.600
would give him our honest opinion, and he wanted it
1684
01:23:01.600 --> 01:23:05.960
to feel organic that he said this in these exact words.
1685
01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:08.439
He wants it to feel like the fans are making
1686
01:23:08.520 --> 01:23:12.960
him not the company. And for every intention that he
1687
01:23:13.079 --> 01:23:16.119
had and all the effort that went into it, Vince's
1688
01:23:16.119 --> 01:23:19.039
worst fear of making it seem like we're pushing him
1689
01:23:19.079 --> 01:23:22.079
down on people's throats is what happened. And I think
1690
01:23:22.079 --> 01:23:24.760
the whole landscape has changed. To your point, the fan
1691
01:23:24.840 --> 01:23:27.800
base these days, they're not going to accept the guy
1692
01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:29.880
that the company gets behind. They want to feel like
1693
01:23:29.960 --> 01:23:32.720
they have a say in it. And there are a
1694
01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:34.560
lot of times going to pick guys that they know
1695
01:23:35.279 --> 01:23:39.239
the machine won't a CM punk, a Daniel Bryan, Guys
1696
01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:42.600
like that is you know they want that say. And
1697
01:23:43.039 --> 01:23:46.199
I can also point to you to like I said,
1698
01:23:46.239 --> 01:23:48.399
live events and things like that, Roman Reigns gets a
1699
01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.560
great reaction from everything I've heard on live events where
1700
01:23:51.560 --> 01:23:53.640
you don't have as many hardcore fans and you have
1701
01:23:53.680 --> 01:23:57.399
the casual fans. The perception that you said of Ambrose
1702
01:23:57.520 --> 01:23:59.840
and Rollins are carrying his green ass. I think that
1703
01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:02.760
smart fans and as people like us maybe try to
1704
01:24:02.800 --> 01:24:05.039
see those things. Casual fans I don't think look at
1705
01:24:05.079 --> 01:24:07.079
it that way at all. They looked at it as man,
1706
01:24:07.119 --> 01:24:10.319
that guy's a badass like he he could kill anybody.
1707
01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:12.479
The other two guys are probably lucky to have him
1708
01:24:12.520 --> 01:24:15.359
as they're on their team. So it's a lot of
1709
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:17.920
its perception, you know. But I could tell you Daniel
1710
01:24:17.920 --> 01:24:20.880
Bryan wasn't set in the world on fire when it
1711
01:24:20.920 --> 01:24:24.279
came to you know, when WW looked at ratings and
1712
01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:28.359
certain segments, when they looked at live attendance and showed
1713
01:24:28.439 --> 01:24:30.279
that he was on versus shows seen him with those
1714
01:24:30.279 --> 01:24:34.119
same thing with Punk, the numbers just weren't there to
1715
01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:37.640
support that he was as and I'm not all get
1716
01:24:37.640 --> 01:24:40.119
in trouble on this, but wasn't over to the level
1717
01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:42.119
that maybe certain fans thought he was.
1718
01:24:42.880 --> 01:24:44.720
And I think the counter argument, and I'm not even
1719
01:24:44.760 --> 01:24:47.319
saying I embrace this fully, but the counter argument that
1720
01:24:47.359 --> 01:24:50.760
I think deserves some attention is if they weren't on
1721
01:24:50.800 --> 01:24:55.439
television every week demeaning Daniel Bryan and talking about how
1722
01:24:55.479 --> 01:24:58.760
he's a troll and not a face of a company
1723
01:24:58.880 --> 01:25:03.239
an he's small that instead put the machinery behind him
1724
01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:06.840
and gave people not permission to cheer him. Once that
1725
01:25:06.960 --> 01:25:09.880
momentum already got rolling and fans had already decided that
1726
01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:12.800
they liked him, and then the promotion backed him. Then
1727
01:25:12.840 --> 01:25:15.920
I think some of the it's such a negative term lemmings,
1728
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:18.439
you know, but the fans who kind of follow whatever
1729
01:25:18.479 --> 01:25:21.680
the promotion tells them, those fans are showing up, I
1730
01:25:21.680 --> 01:25:25.359
would argue to a degree in the moderate and not
1731
01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:29.960
overwhelmingly positive metrics. I think that WWE sometimes doesn't understand
1732
01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.800
the power that they do have. Once those the Bellweather fans,
1733
01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:39.039
the hardcore fans, the early adopters recognize something in somebody,
1734
01:25:39.319 --> 01:25:41.680
that's when it's time to get behind them. And when
1735
01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:43.720
you fight it for nine months, you just make the
1736
01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:48.000
fans who are early adopters and choose them and recognize that, hey,
1737
01:25:48.039 --> 01:25:50.039
this guy I want to pay to see him. I
1738
01:25:50.039 --> 01:25:51.960
want to tune in to watch him. If the promotion
1739
01:25:52.079 --> 01:25:55.319
fights that and starts demeaning him on air, as they
1740
01:25:55.319 --> 01:25:57.760
did Daniel Bryan, of course they have the power to
1741
01:25:57.800 --> 01:25:59.800
then make fans think, well, this guy's not someone I
1742
01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:01.680
want want to buy merchandise for because he's a little troll.
1743
01:26:01.720 --> 01:26:03.359
He's not a face of a company. And so I
1744
01:26:03.359 --> 01:26:06.640
think they actually underestimate the silent majority out there who
1745
01:26:06.640 --> 01:26:08.359
are kind of waiting to be led a certain direction.
1746
01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:12.720
That's a that's a very interesting point, and there's probably
1747
01:26:12.760 --> 01:26:14.560
something to that as well. I mean, I guess you
1748
01:26:14.560 --> 01:26:17.000
could look at it from both sides. Yeah, does does
1749
01:26:17.039 --> 01:26:19.600
that message eventually seep through and it's a self fulfilling
1750
01:26:19.640 --> 01:26:23.000
prophecy or do they do the fans that you know,
1751
01:26:23.239 --> 01:26:25.560
sense that rebel even more and say, well, I'm going
1752
01:26:25.600 --> 01:26:28.239
to buy more Daniel Brian merchandise to prove them wrong.
1753
01:26:28.800 --> 01:26:31.720
I could say this too. There was a feeling as
1754
01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:34.560
it released to Daniel Bryan specifically that he was such
1755
01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:38.680
an underdog character and so loved by the fans that
1756
01:26:39.920 --> 01:26:41.920
once he got to the top, that it was all
1757
01:26:41.920 --> 01:26:43.760
in the chase, right, it was all in the throw
1758
01:26:43.800 --> 01:26:45.600
of the chase, that once he got to the top,
1759
01:26:45.640 --> 01:26:49.439
and once he got the title, that that fans not
1760
01:26:49.720 --> 01:26:51.720
that they didn't like him anymore, but that almost the
1761
01:26:51.800 --> 01:26:54.640
journey was over. And now he's not the underdog anymore
1762
01:26:54.640 --> 01:26:57.039
because he has a championship. I'm not saying I agree
1763
01:26:57.079 --> 01:26:58.800
with that, because I really didn't agree with it. You
1764
01:26:58.800 --> 01:27:00.920
can have an underdog chant and Bob Becklan was an
1765
01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:04.159
underdog champion for five years in WW and you know,
1766
01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:08.760
was pretty successful, but I think there was a feeling
1767
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:11.640
that Daniel Bryan is not a guy who can be
1768
01:27:11.720 --> 01:27:14.279
the champion for the long term because then he loses
1769
01:27:14.800 --> 01:27:19.039
that underdog kind of every man appeal that that's what
1770
01:27:19.119 --> 01:27:21.720
made him in the first place. So that's why, you know,
1771
01:27:22.119 --> 01:27:24.479
he was never intended to have a long run. His
1772
01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:28.279
coronation at WrestleMania, where he beat Triple H and then
1773
01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:30.319
went on to beat Batista and Randy Orton and the
1774
01:27:30.359 --> 01:27:32.600
same I mean, talk about putting somebody over on the
1775
01:27:32.680 --> 01:27:35.640
you know, the biggest stage, beating three guys like that
1776
01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:38.359
all on the same night. But that was never meant
1777
01:27:38.359 --> 01:27:40.680
to be a launching point to the Daniel Bryan era.
1778
01:27:41.439 --> 01:27:43.840
There was always that he was going to be you know,
1779
01:27:43.920 --> 01:27:45.439
it was going to go to brock Lesner and then
1780
01:27:45.479 --> 01:27:47.760
and then go to Roman Rains. Even at that point,
1781
01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:49.279
Roman Rains was the guy.
1782
01:27:49.880 --> 01:27:51.479
Well, and it's it's it's sort of you know what
1783
01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:53.159
happens when the dog catches the bumper, you know, he
1784
01:27:53.239 --> 01:27:55.199
chases a car constantly, finally catches the number. Now what
1785
01:27:56.119 --> 01:27:58.199
And yeah, that's with Brian, I can see that, but
1786
01:27:58.239 --> 01:27:59.800
I guess the goal and as you said, it happened
1787
01:27:59.840 --> 01:28:02.159
with Acklin and others. You have underdog champions who work.
1788
01:28:02.600 --> 01:28:06.159
It's underestimating two things about Daniel Brian that didn't have
1789
01:28:06.239 --> 01:28:08.800
to just to do with being the underdog, which is
1790
01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:13.079
his personable, affable, genuine connection with the fan base who
1791
01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:16.560
wanted to see him succeed. And number two, how freaking
1792
01:28:16.640 --> 01:28:19.039
good he was in the ring. I mean, you talk
1793
01:28:19.039 --> 01:28:22.119
about an organic situation. It was those tag matches with
1794
01:28:22.199 --> 01:28:25.279
Kane against the Shield at house shows. I rarely, if ever,
1795
01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:29.239
choose a headline for my weekly newsletter over twenty eight
1796
01:28:29.319 --> 01:28:31.399
years that has to do with something that's happening at
1797
01:28:31.399 --> 01:28:33.720
house shows. I mean, it's just that's rarely a place
1798
01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:36.640
where big news happens. I headlined with you know, I
1799
01:28:36.640 --> 01:28:39.800
don't remember the exact phrasing, but Daniel Brian on fire
1800
01:28:40.199 --> 01:28:43.920
at house shows. Wwe cannot ignore this. Every house show
1801
01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:45.920
report we were getting is when Brian gets a hot
1802
01:28:45.920 --> 01:28:48.960
tag against the Shield from Kine, the place goes bonkers
1803
01:28:48.960 --> 01:28:50.600
in a way we haven't heard in a long time.
1804
01:28:51.000 --> 01:28:54.119
So I think you can tell a story once Daniel
1805
01:28:54.119 --> 01:28:59.560
Brian won the championship around this and not coalescing, just
1806
01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:02.800
coming out of the woodwork to try to take him down.
1807
01:29:03.319 --> 01:29:05.920
And I think it fit with the times, with coming
1808
01:29:05.920 --> 01:29:08.760
out of the rough economy and the housing crisis to
1809
01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:12.159
have a character who has fought and it really hard
1810
01:29:12.159 --> 01:29:15.359
to get to where he is, and he's this scrappy,
1811
01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:19.159
hard working, talented guy and you do your job and
1812
01:29:19.159 --> 01:29:21.079
you line up one heel after another after another for
1813
01:29:21.159 --> 01:29:23.600
him to slay. I think there's money in that for
1814
01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:27.319
a few years. And I think that WWE, especially Vince's
1815
01:29:27.399 --> 01:29:33.359
history is so based around Bruno Backland, Hogan Hack Warrior,
1816
01:29:33.399 --> 01:29:35.920
Brett Sean but you know, and then John Cena especially,
1817
01:29:36.680 --> 01:29:39.800
he's so central, strong babyface against heels, and I don't
1818
01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:41.680
know that they strongly are fully embrace.
1819
01:29:41.840 --> 01:29:43.560
Yeah. I think I think the problem was, which what
1820
01:29:43.640 --> 01:29:46.319
we all know is that Vince has a certain idea
1821
01:29:46.359 --> 01:29:48.119
of what a superstar looks like and let to face,
1822
01:29:48.199 --> 01:29:49.640
the company looks like. And I think at the end
1823
01:29:49.640 --> 01:29:51.760
of the day displayed all the things that you just
1824
01:29:51.800 --> 01:29:54.000
said that made sense. It's like he looked at Daniel
1825
01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.840
Bryan and he looked at Roman Reigns and said, you know,
1826
01:29:56.960 --> 01:29:58.920
there's money in one of these guys and there's not
1827
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:01.039
any other, ye and uh, And that's what it came
1828
01:30:01.079 --> 01:30:04.279
down to. Was that Evince would always stress to us
1829
01:30:04.279 --> 01:30:06.720
too about what's believable, and he would use the word
1830
01:30:06.760 --> 01:30:10.800
visceral from ril seconds. Do I believe Daniel Brian could
1831
01:30:10.840 --> 01:30:13.279
beep rock with hell? No? You know, those were the
1832
01:30:13.359 --> 01:30:15.760
kind of thing. I think he wants a guy, and
1833
01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:18.359
that's why he likes Seamus so much. You know, Seamus
1834
01:30:18.479 --> 01:30:20.880
is deceptively a big guy. If you ever stood next
1835
01:30:20.920 --> 01:30:23.399
to him, and you know how big he is. He's
1836
01:30:23.439 --> 01:30:25.159
a guy that when he walked into a room because
1837
01:30:25.159 --> 01:30:27.399
of the way, you know, because hair and reflection and
1838
01:30:27.399 --> 01:30:30.239
everything else, whatever, he walked into a room and you're like, well,
1839
01:30:30.279 --> 01:30:31.880
that guy's somebody. I don't know what he is, but
1840
01:30:31.920 --> 01:30:36.840
I know Daniel Brian walks. Does he turn head head
1841
01:30:36.840 --> 01:30:39.640
at the airport? Daniel Brian walks into a room in
1842
01:30:39.640 --> 01:30:41.319
a T shirt and jeans, and mean, just you know,
1843
01:30:41.479 --> 01:30:43.760
lose this, you know, as a fan, just walk in
1844
01:30:44.199 --> 01:30:47.279
And I think Vince had has a hard time, and
1845
01:30:47.319 --> 01:30:50.159
you know I could see his point to some extent
1846
01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:53.680
of he wants larger than life characters and and no
1847
01:30:53.720 --> 01:30:56.600
matter how many yes chances there were, how many great
1848
01:30:56.640 --> 01:30:59.800
pops he got a seconds, I just think he never
1849
01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:02.760
has gotten beyond the fact that, you know, it's just
1850
01:31:02.840 --> 01:31:06.840
hard to believe that this guy Number one could could
1851
01:31:07.199 --> 01:31:10.479
then beat all the and number two can just can
1852
01:31:10.560 --> 01:31:12.439
just be that guy that's sets the face in the company.
1853
01:31:12.439 --> 01:31:16.119
That people who are casual fans in CWWE and see
1854
01:31:16.159 --> 01:31:18.119
who the champion is, they would be like, Wow, that's
1855
01:31:18.159 --> 01:31:20.640
that guy's the champion. That little guy with the beard
1856
01:31:21.079 --> 01:31:24.560
can't believe that, and I think he just never got past.
1857
01:31:24.359 --> 01:31:28.920
That before pushing play on the way Keller Pro Wrestling
1858
01:31:28.920 --> 01:31:31.279
post shows. Check out PW torch dot com and our
1859
01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:34.479
TV review section and skim through a full rundown of
1860
01:31:34.520 --> 01:31:36.239
the TV show if you didn't see it. That's your
1861
01:31:36.239 --> 01:31:38.680
way to get an overview of what happened before you
1862
01:31:38.800 --> 01:31:42.359
dive into our in depth analysis of the key happenings
1863
01:31:42.359 --> 01:31:45.000
on the show. That's PW torch dot com. You're home
1864
01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:48.439
for live TV coverage every Monday, Wednesday and Friday with
1865
01:31:48.479 --> 01:31:50.600
my TV Reports, and also check out our NXT and
1866
01:31:50.640 --> 01:31:53.439
Impact coverage on Tuesdays and Thursdays, our Collision reports on
1867
01:31:53.479 --> 01:31:55.279
Saturday nights, and of course our live pay per view
1868
01:31:55.279 --> 01:31:58.279
and ple coverage on weekends, all waiting for you at
1869
01:31:58.319 --> 01:32:03.479
PW torch dot Com. Derek, You've been patiently still on
1870
01:32:03.520 --> 01:32:05.960
the line here. You launched a really good discussion I think,
1871
01:32:06.479 --> 01:32:10.680
and got a good conversation going. But any follow up
1872
01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:11.960
on your part or a second question.
1873
01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:16.279
Oh yeah, Well, I think we went down the Roman
1874
01:32:16.359 --> 01:32:19.760
range rabbit hole, but it kind of changed the format.
1875
01:32:19.800 --> 01:32:22.479
I think it's interesting that we taw a cool factor
1876
01:32:22.880 --> 01:32:26.359
and maybe that's synonymous with the it's factor, but I
1877
01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:29.479
think there is some differences between the two, and I'll
1878
01:32:29.560 --> 01:32:31.640
argue that Daniel Bryant, because that's been the point of
1879
01:32:31.680 --> 01:32:34.600
emphasis for the last few minutes. He definitely had an
1880
01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:39.039
IT factor, But I think for a casual fan who
1881
01:32:39.119 --> 01:32:42.000
wasn't very familiar with the product, I think there was
1882
01:32:42.079 --> 01:32:45.399
a cool factor that was perhaps missing until you were
1883
01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:48.600
an Ardent fan. And I think I'm the roster right now.
1884
01:32:49.119 --> 01:32:51.560
I would point to a guy like Seth Rollins, who
1885
01:32:51.560 --> 01:32:54.840
I think has an ITS factor as well as a
1886
01:32:54.840 --> 01:32:58.880
cool factor. I mean, I think the ideal now when
1887
01:32:58.880 --> 01:33:01.760
it comes to Melbo body form, I think we went
1888
01:33:01.800 --> 01:33:04.920
away a little bit from muscled up jack dudes and
1889
01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:08.520
it's more of a fit ment health type to Zeke,
1890
01:33:08.640 --> 01:33:11.760
and that's definitely what Seth Rollins has and that's appealing
1891
01:33:11.840 --> 01:33:15.840
both to men as well as to females as well.
1892
01:33:16.439 --> 01:33:18.359
And I think he also I mean I saw him
1893
01:33:18.399 --> 01:33:23.319
on MTV discussing his you know ten favorite metal and
1894
01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:26.880
hardcore songs, and when I heard him say that that's
1895
01:33:26.960 --> 01:33:30.199
cool and a lot of the same bands that he's
1896
01:33:30.239 --> 01:33:33.680
into in the lifestyle that he kind of portrays is
1897
01:33:33.760 --> 01:33:37.479
what both NXT bands that they pick because they think
1898
01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:42.600
they're cool. That's it's the same target demographic. And also
1899
01:33:42.600 --> 01:33:44.680
when I saw him talk with Renee Young on a
1900
01:33:44.800 --> 01:33:49.319
very personal level, he does come across as a relatable, cool,
1901
01:33:49.840 --> 01:33:52.880
yet smart and articulate guy. So I think if you're
1902
01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:57.039
talking about Roman Reigns crosses off these few checkpoints on
1903
01:33:57.159 --> 01:34:01.119
what could be the main guy, I think Rawlin's checks
1904
01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:04.039
off just as many for a lot of people.
1905
01:34:04.920 --> 01:34:08.239
Yeah, Derek, I actually think Seth is probably the top
1906
01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:12.359
alternative right now to Roman Reigns, who probably has a
1907
01:34:12.359 --> 01:34:17.039
greater EVN diagram overlap that would lead to less rebellion
1908
01:34:17.800 --> 01:34:20.600
among the the ardent vocal fan base who are currently
1909
01:34:20.640 --> 01:34:23.159
rejecting Roman and it. I'm not saying Roman can't turn
1910
01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:24.960
it around or that they can't just endure it and
1911
01:34:24.960 --> 01:34:28.960
grit their teeth. Kevin, Uh, what's what's your prediction watching
1912
01:34:29.039 --> 01:34:31.279
since you left, what's going on with Roman and knowing
1913
01:34:31.520 --> 01:34:34.680
vinswick Mann's tendencies, what's your prediction on the path Roman
1914
01:34:34.720 --> 01:34:35.640
is going to take going forward?
1915
01:34:37.520 --> 01:34:40.279
Well, I think they're obviously trying anything they can. You know,
1916
01:34:40.359 --> 01:34:42.520
we've seen him undergo, you know, he went from the
1917
01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:45.479
pandering baby face to them trying to be tough again.
1918
01:34:45.600 --> 01:34:49.720
So now they've just acknowledged, right, they've just basically said, Okay,
1919
01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:51.880
some people like him, some people don't, I'm not a
1920
01:34:51.920 --> 01:34:54.079
good guy. I'm not a bad guy that whole that
1921
01:34:54.119 --> 01:34:56.319
whole thing, and just have him go out there. He's
1922
01:34:56.359 --> 01:34:58.399
not going to be a heel, right, He's not cheating
1923
01:34:58.399 --> 01:35:00.840
the wind, he's not backing down from fight. He's still
1924
01:35:00.840 --> 01:35:04.119
a babyface in name, but now he doesn't really he'll
1925
01:35:04.159 --> 01:35:06.199
wrestle baby face as or heels, and he doesn't really
1926
01:35:06.359 --> 01:35:08.439
not going to pander you to cheer for him, but
1927
01:35:08.520 --> 01:35:10.079
he's not going to discourage you to cheer for him.
1928
01:35:10.359 --> 01:35:13.520
So I think that is probably for right now, although
1929
01:35:14.000 --> 01:35:16.319
I would argue that maybe a full on heel turn
1930
01:35:17.159 --> 01:35:19.399
would ultimately be best for him. Get him out there
1931
01:35:19.399 --> 01:35:21.680
as a badass heel and then somewhere down the line
1932
01:35:21.720 --> 01:35:23.760
you flip the switch. Maybe people would be more willing
1933
01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:25.680
to accept him. But I'm gonna give this some time
1934
01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:27.760
and see how it plays out. It's clear to me
1935
01:35:27.800 --> 01:35:30.960
that Roman is comfortable in doing what he's doing because
1936
01:35:30.960 --> 01:35:32.560
I think, you know, you mentioned some of the things
1937
01:35:32.560 --> 01:35:35.520
he said in interviews, and I think that was I'm
1938
01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:37.359
not speaking for him, but I think that was some
1939
01:35:37.399 --> 01:35:41.039
of his frustration with knowing what the company expected from him,
1940
01:35:41.079 --> 01:35:43.680
to be the top baby face, going out there working
1941
01:35:43.720 --> 01:35:45.840
his ass off and not getting the reaction that he
1942
01:35:45.880 --> 01:35:48.000
wanted or that the company wants him to get. I
1943
01:35:48.039 --> 01:35:49.880
think that's where you would see some of his frustration
1944
01:35:50.439 --> 01:35:53.920
in his interviews, mainstream interviews. Maybe this is the way
1945
01:35:53.920 --> 01:35:55.520
to go, and I think Vince is going to sit
1946
01:35:55.560 --> 01:35:57.479
back and see how this plays out. To me, so far,
1947
01:35:57.560 --> 01:36:00.000
it's working, you know. I think with the stuff he's
1948
01:36:00.159 --> 01:36:03.279
doing with aj Styles has been great and just kind
1949
01:36:03.279 --> 01:36:05.239
of let it, let it take its natural progression and
1950
01:36:05.239 --> 01:36:07.039
see how the fans react to him. Maybe they'll get
1951
01:36:07.039 --> 01:36:09.920
more respect for him that he's not pandering, that he's
1952
01:36:09.920 --> 01:36:13.000
having great matches with guys like aj styles and and
1953
01:36:13.039 --> 01:36:14.880
we'll see where it goes from here. As far as
1954
01:36:14.880 --> 01:36:17.560
Seth Rollins, I agree, I think, and he's one of
1955
01:36:17.600 --> 01:36:20.079
the names I mentioned along with Ambrose as you know,
1956
01:36:20.119 --> 01:36:21.840
if it's not if it's not rained, it might be
1957
01:36:21.880 --> 01:36:23.960
one of those guys. I'm really anxious to see what
1958
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:27.199
Seth Rollins can do as a babyface whenever the trigger
1959
01:36:27.239 --> 01:36:29.680
is pulled on that, whether he returns is one or
1960
01:36:29.760 --> 01:36:32.680
does a turn down the line. You know, I would
1961
01:36:32.760 --> 01:36:35.079
like to see. He's never been a top babyface on
1962
01:36:35.119 --> 01:36:37.920
his own in WWE, when the shield turned, they all
1963
01:36:38.079 --> 01:36:40.840
kind of turned together. I would love to see what
1964
01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:43.920
Seth can do as a lead babyface on his own,
1965
01:36:45.119 --> 01:36:47.560
you know. I want to hear what his babyface promos
1966
01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:50.199
sound like. And let's see where it goes from Let's
1967
01:36:50.199 --> 01:36:52.880
see if he really has that babyface charisma that's special.
1968
01:36:53.199 --> 01:36:54.800
I don't know whether he does or doesn't, but I
1969
01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:56.439
think you make a lot of good points about some
1970
01:36:56.479 --> 01:36:58.880
of the aspects and characteristics that he does have that
1971
01:36:58.880 --> 01:37:01.119
would lead you to believe it work well.
1972
01:37:01.159 --> 01:37:03.680
And with Seth too, it's funny, you know, he was
1973
01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:10.159
such a convincing, sniveling heel, and I mean I've told
1974
01:37:10.279 --> 01:37:12.239
I've said this, made this analogy over and over. What
1975
01:37:12.279 --> 01:37:13.960
the thing I loved about Seth is I watched him
1976
01:37:13.960 --> 01:37:16.720
on TV and I believed that once a year when
1977
01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:18.840
he went to the DMB to renew his license, all
1978
01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:21.600
the workers there went, oh, no, not this guy again.
1979
01:37:22.159 --> 01:37:26.439
You know that's that's who Seth was on television and
1980
01:37:27.359 --> 01:37:29.279
I believed it. But the thing is is, when he
1981
01:37:29.359 --> 01:37:31.279
was in the Shield and everybody was cheering him, who
1982
01:37:31.279 --> 01:37:33.119
did they think was going to be the breakoup babyface
1983
01:37:33.159 --> 01:37:35.800
of that group? Who's the one who's most naturally going
1984
01:37:35.840 --> 01:37:38.119
to be a babyface? People thought Dean heel and Seth
1985
01:37:38.199 --> 01:37:41.039
babyface in Roman we just didn't know yet, and it
1986
01:37:41.159 --> 01:37:44.399
ended up flipped. Dean ended up being this any babyface
1987
01:37:44.399 --> 01:37:47.880
and Seth the sniffling heel. So I think if we
1988
01:37:48.000 --> 01:37:51.399
go back to that time, for that moment, that that
1989
01:37:51.520 --> 01:37:54.039
span of time when we were evaluating where will the
1990
01:37:54.039 --> 01:37:57.079
Shield go when they break up, everybody thought Seth will
1991
01:37:57.119 --> 01:37:59.359
be the breakoup babyface. So he was just such a
1992
01:37:59.359 --> 01:38:02.520
good heel that I I think we've all forgotten that
1993
01:38:02.600 --> 01:38:04.800
our initial instinct was, Oh, this guy's going to be
1994
01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:06.920
a really good baby face. Because of his more athletic
1995
01:38:07.039 --> 01:38:09.520
ring style and the way that he looked and carried himself.
1996
01:38:10.880 --> 01:38:13.319
Well, perceptions of the Shield changed, and I could speak
1997
01:38:13.319 --> 01:38:16.079
to this because the group was created while I was there,
1998
01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:19.479
is that initially we saw Dean as the singles guy.
1999
01:38:19.520 --> 01:38:22.399
If you'll remember he got the US title. You know,
2000
01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:24.760
Rains was going to be the long term guy down
2001
01:38:24.800 --> 01:38:27.479
the line, the potential face of the company. Seth was
2002
01:38:27.520 --> 01:38:30.840
the worker and that's why the decision was made right away,
2003
01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:32.600
is that Dean's going to be the guy that sort
2004
01:38:32.600 --> 01:38:35.479
of goes on his own. It's the US title. We
2005
01:38:35.520 --> 01:38:37.520
had actually at one point talked about putting the world
2006
01:38:37.520 --> 01:38:39.960
title on him, which that spot kind of ended up
2007
01:38:39.960 --> 01:38:43.279
going to Randy Orton. But Dean was a guy that
2008
01:38:43.359 --> 01:38:45.279
was going to be the singles star. At that point,
2009
01:38:46.399 --> 01:38:49.199
Roman and Seth were teamed up because, like I said,
2010
01:38:49.279 --> 01:38:51.640
Roman was the guy being groomed. He was greener than
2011
01:38:51.680 --> 01:38:53.880
the other two. It didn't have as much experience. Seth
2012
01:38:54.000 --> 01:38:55.479
was the worker who was going to be the worker
2013
01:38:55.479 --> 01:38:59.520
of the team. The perception though, was long term, Roman's
2014
01:38:59.520 --> 01:39:02.760
going to be the Dean's gonna be a heel and
2015
01:39:02.840 --> 01:39:06.640
Seth was gonna be I don't want to say underneath babyface,
2016
01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:09.199
but he would. We saw set He's gonna gonna be
2017
01:39:09.239 --> 01:39:12.399
the intercontinental champion type baby stax. He's not gonna be
2018
01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:14.760
the lead guy. That's gonna be Roman. He's gonna be
2019
01:39:14.840 --> 01:39:16.840
Roman's friend. So you know he's gonna be in that
2020
01:39:16.920 --> 01:39:20.199
next sort of the top tier, but not the tippy top.
2021
01:39:20.880 --> 01:39:22.920
And and I don't think I think as as time
2022
01:39:22.960 --> 01:39:27.680
went on, people's perceptions of Seth especially were changing. And
2023
01:39:27.800 --> 01:39:30.319
I'll say this, Michael Hayes was a very big, big
2024
01:39:30.359 --> 01:39:33.239
proponent of Seth and that whenever the Shield would lose
2025
01:39:33.279 --> 01:39:37.399
a match, it was Seth taking the fall. And I
2026
01:39:37.439 --> 01:39:40.279
remember Michael Hayes just going, We've got to stop beating
2027
01:39:40.319 --> 01:39:45.760
Seth so much. And that's where you know, and and
2028
01:39:45.880 --> 01:39:48.720
Hunter got behind Seth. Well that's when you know perceptions
2029
01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:51.399
were changing because we used to rank the Shield members. Well,
2030
01:39:51.439 --> 01:39:54.399
right now Deans won, you know, Romans two and Seth
2031
01:39:54.520 --> 01:39:57.640
is clearly three. Well you know, ultimately Roman's gonna be one.
2032
01:39:57.640 --> 01:39:59.439
And but I'll say you at some point Seth went
2033
01:39:59.479 --> 01:40:02.000
from three to one in some people's minds in that room,
2034
01:40:02.199 --> 01:40:04.800
in the writing room. And you know, to your point,
2035
01:40:05.159 --> 01:40:07.920
that was a great heel. I don't know whether he
2036
01:40:07.960 --> 01:40:10.119
can be face of the company baby face. Well, well,
2037
01:40:10.159 --> 01:40:12.199
time will tell, because I think he is a good chance.
2038
01:40:12.239 --> 01:40:14.640
We'll get the opportunity, and I hope he runs with it.
2039
01:40:14.680 --> 01:40:16.479
You know, it would be great for WW and great
2040
01:40:16.479 --> 01:40:19.239
for him and everybody. But we'll have to see. Time
2041
01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:22.000
will tell. I mean to me, and this is just
2042
01:40:22.079 --> 01:40:26.600
my personal opinion. I see more of the just that
2043
01:40:27.079 --> 01:40:31.720
intangible it factor in Roman than I do in Seth.
2044
01:40:31.960 --> 01:40:34.640
And that's just my personal opinion as far as I
2045
01:40:34.680 --> 01:40:36.399
don't know what it's sort of the way they carry
2046
01:40:36.399 --> 01:40:40.880
themselves or sort of the coolness factor or the badass factor.
2047
01:40:41.039 --> 01:40:43.039
Is I get it more in Roman than I do
2048
01:40:43.119 --> 01:40:45.000
in Seth. And I might be in the minority in
2049
01:40:45.000 --> 01:40:47.439
that on that ceiling, but that's just my perception.
2050
01:40:47.800 --> 01:40:50.720
Yeah, no, And I think in the long run, if
2051
01:40:50.760 --> 01:40:53.800
you if the course was set for Roman to go
2052
01:40:53.960 --> 01:40:56.479
heel for two to two and a half three years,
2053
01:40:56.760 --> 01:40:58.159
year and a half to three years, let's make it
2054
01:40:58.199 --> 01:41:00.479
broader and you go all in and you know you
2055
01:41:00.520 --> 01:41:02.479
don't have him, you know you don't have and imply
2056
01:41:02.680 --> 01:41:04.920
that he's he's you know, raping people. I mean, you
2057
01:41:04.920 --> 01:41:06.640
know you don't go so far that you can't come back.
2058
01:41:07.159 --> 01:41:09.039
You don't go all attitude and art. But but you
2059
01:41:09.079 --> 01:41:11.680
have him go heel. He's got a bad attitude, he's arrogant,
2060
01:41:11.720 --> 01:41:13.319
he's full of himself. But there's a story you can
2061
01:41:13.319 --> 01:41:15.760
tell where somebody matures in that spot. But you let
2062
01:41:15.800 --> 01:41:17.840
fans get it out of their system and you let
2063
01:41:17.880 --> 01:41:20.279
them work heel and be more comfortable. And he's got
2064
01:41:20.279 --> 01:41:22.520
a lot to draw from inside now, you know, I
2065
01:41:22.600 --> 01:41:25.600
mean a lot of bitterness towards both how the fans
2066
01:41:25.600 --> 01:41:27.560
are treated him, but also I mean that look of
2067
01:41:27.600 --> 01:41:30.079
exasperation as he climbed the ladder after the tater tot
2068
01:41:30.119 --> 01:41:33.640
tobacco was Seamus. That that look it almost you know,
2069
01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:35.119
you couldn't help but have a little sympathy for the
2070
01:41:35.159 --> 01:41:37.560
guy because you could tell he was doing stuff that
2071
01:41:37.600 --> 01:41:39.920
he didn't believe in and there was no way to
2072
01:41:39.920 --> 01:41:42.399
do it well. But if you say, well, four years
2073
01:41:42.399 --> 01:41:44.960
from now, who do you think has that in factor
2074
01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:46.479
and that better chance? I mean, I think a very
2075
01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:49.359
valid argument can be made that Roman and Seth both
2076
01:41:49.439 --> 01:41:53.880
hugely valuable. Roman might have a bigger upside, especially just
2077
01:41:53.920 --> 01:41:55.359
coming out of Sandia and what we saw with AJ
2078
01:41:55.640 --> 01:41:58.039
but if they both but if they take a less
2079
01:41:58.079 --> 01:42:01.520
than ideal path with Roman, then you know you have
2080
01:42:01.560 --> 01:42:04.560
to consider that, well, you're fighting, you're fighting the headwind
2081
01:42:04.600 --> 01:42:07.560
here and you're you're Seth is going to be an
2082
01:42:07.600 --> 01:42:09.359
easier guy to get over the way that you're pushing them.
2083
01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:12.640
I look at Roman a little bit like Vince had.
2084
01:42:12.760 --> 01:42:17.279
There's a curb appeal snobbishness to Vince's attitude. I want
2085
01:42:17.279 --> 01:42:20.520
this house because when people drive by, they're gonna say,
2086
01:42:20.560 --> 01:42:23.159
that guy successful, look at that great house. But you
2087
01:42:23.199 --> 01:42:27.479
walk in and it's it's builders standard materials and it's
2088
01:42:27.479 --> 01:42:29.960
a it's a trendy but bad layout. There's not a
2089
01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:33.720
great view, there's no room you really feel comfortable in.
2090
01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:35.600
The kitchen is kind of awkwardly laid out, but oh
2091
01:42:35.600 --> 01:42:38.039
it's got good curb appeal. And then there's another house,
2092
01:42:38.159 --> 01:42:41.560
not great curb appeal, but you walk in and it's magnificent.
2093
01:42:41.680 --> 01:42:45.680
It's like architectural standards, you know, it just it just
2094
01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:48.119
got it's really built well. Uh, the layout of the
2095
01:42:48.159 --> 01:42:51.159
kitchen is great. Like WWE's puts so much value on
2096
01:42:51.199 --> 01:42:54.000
that curb appeal of wrestlers that sometimes they don't look
2097
01:42:54.039 --> 01:42:56.439
past the experience that you get when you actually have
2098
01:42:56.479 --> 01:42:58.680
to live in it, and I think they that's the
2099
01:42:58.680 --> 01:43:00.600
problem they ran into with the number of guys over
2100
01:43:00.600 --> 01:43:02.920
the years. And I think Roman is an example of
2101
01:43:03.520 --> 01:43:06.279
somebody were Daniel Bryan had no curb appeal, but everybody
2102
01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:08.720
wanted to hang out in that house. And so it's
2103
01:43:08.760 --> 01:43:11.319
finding a balance between those two things that I think
2104
01:43:11.399 --> 01:43:15.239
is often the big challenge for them. Derek, appreciate the call.
2105
01:43:15.319 --> 01:43:17.880
Let's sneak in here a call from seven to one eight,
2106
01:43:18.199 --> 01:43:19.560
seven to one eight, Go ahead and state your name
2107
01:43:19.560 --> 01:43:20.239
and where you're calling.
2108
01:43:22.279 --> 01:43:23.600
Books going away.
2109
01:43:23.680 --> 01:43:25.119
Doing good, Mike, what have you got what you got
2110
01:43:25.119 --> 01:43:29.039
for Kevin today? Thank Please turn down the mic on
2111
01:43:29.039 --> 01:43:34.039
the show too. We're getting feedback again. That yeah better?
2112
01:43:34.079 --> 01:43:39.479
Thanks? All right? Just real quick, how will you book?
2113
01:43:40.479 --> 01:43:40.600
Uh?
2114
01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:43.520
You know, the whole bullet club angle?
2115
01:43:44.000 --> 01:43:47.159
That's about it, bullet club angle. What have you thought, Kevin?
2116
01:43:47.199 --> 01:43:49.800
Watching this, having been there and knowing how they do things,
2117
01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:51.039
what do you How do you think they've handled this
2118
01:43:51.079 --> 01:43:51.359
so far?
2119
01:43:52.720 --> 01:43:55.159
I think they've handled it pretty well for the most part.
2120
01:43:55.239 --> 01:43:56.720
You know, I've been out of the loop for a
2121
01:43:56.720 --> 01:43:59.720
while now, so obviously I have no insight information as
2122
01:43:59.720 --> 01:44:01.720
far as where things are going or anything like that.
2123
01:44:03.199 --> 01:44:05.880
I like Finn ballor coming in and hooking up with
2124
01:44:05.920 --> 01:44:08.039
Gallows and Anderson. I think I like that better. I
2125
01:44:08.079 --> 01:44:11.159
think Styles is better off on his own at this point.
2126
01:44:11.239 --> 01:44:13.239
It's I think that's the way at least, you know,
2127
01:44:13.359 --> 01:44:16.000
as I'm watching it, that seems like the way it's going.
2128
01:44:16.399 --> 01:44:18.560
It could be a huge swerve and maybe Aj ends
2129
01:44:18.600 --> 01:44:21.680
up with Gallows and Anderson, But I like Balor coming
2130
01:44:21.720 --> 01:44:25.039
in and getting that spot and you know, call them
2131
01:44:25.039 --> 01:44:27.760
the Bower Club and all that stuff like that's the
2132
01:44:27.800 --> 01:44:28.479
way I would go.
2133
01:44:30.560 --> 01:44:32.640
Yeah, I lean that way too.
2134
01:44:35.479 --> 01:44:39.159
Hey everyone, long time PW George commist Sean raddickin here
2135
01:44:39.199 --> 01:44:42.000
to let you know I've rebamped and renewed the Ratticant
2136
01:44:42.000 --> 01:44:46.600
Worldwide podcast for twenty twenty six, a weekly VIP exclusive.
2137
01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:49.000
Every week, I break down four or five of the
2138
01:44:49.000 --> 01:44:53.239
biggest trending topics in pro wrestling. I also present my analysis,
2139
01:44:53.319 --> 01:44:56.399
providing insight that helps you understand the story better or
2140
01:44:56.439 --> 01:44:59.720
see it another way. Then maybe is the controversial takeout there.
2141
01:45:00.279 --> 01:45:02.319
I bring on a special guest for the second half
2142
01:45:02.319 --> 01:45:05.399
of the podcast. Sometimes it's a wrestler or someone else
2143
01:45:05.399 --> 01:45:07.760
who works in the business. Other times it's a guest
2144
01:45:07.800 --> 01:45:10.680
analyst who brings their specialized point of view out a
2145
01:45:10.680 --> 01:45:14.119
particular key topic in the news. Recent guests have included
2146
01:45:14.159 --> 01:45:17.319
Bronson Reid from WWE and PCO. One of my areas
2147
01:45:17.359 --> 01:45:20.079
of specialty is the Japan wrestling scene, so I often
2148
01:45:20.079 --> 01:45:23.079
cover a big topic from Japan with PW Torch's own
2149
01:45:23.159 --> 01:45:26.880
Alan Farrell, Kelly Wells, and Chris Lansdell. I don't just
2150
01:45:26.960 --> 01:45:29.199
cover the news. I don't just riff on the news
2151
01:45:29.279 --> 01:45:31.720
or give a standard hot take. I'll bring my decades
2152
01:45:31.760 --> 01:45:34.199
of studying this industry and talking one on one with
2153
01:45:34.359 --> 01:45:37.840
dozens of wrestling promoters to each week's show, so you
2154
01:45:38.000 --> 01:45:41.159
understand not just what's happening, but the context of why
2155
01:45:41.399 --> 01:45:43.720
get ahead of the news, get ahead of the pack
2156
01:45:43.800 --> 01:45:48.359
with racking worldwide only at PW Torch VIP.
2157
01:45:50.600 --> 01:45:53.800
And It's interesting, how do you think Vince perceives Gallows
2158
01:45:53.840 --> 01:45:58.640
and Anderson when somebody has a reputation and a history
2159
01:45:59.079 --> 01:46:02.960
before they come into the company. I just think historically Vince,
2160
01:46:03.039 --> 01:46:05.199
and I think for Blache's a tendency to maybe less
2161
01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:07.439
than Vince these days, to look at it and go well,
2162
01:46:07.439 --> 01:46:08.640
I didnt come up with it, so let me pull
2163
01:46:08.680 --> 01:46:11.279
Cohles in it, or well maybe they got over in
2164
01:46:11.279 --> 01:46:13.359
a different environment, but that's not how we do things here,
2165
01:46:13.399 --> 01:46:14.880
and they have some flaws that aren't going to work.
2166
01:46:15.199 --> 01:46:17.520
How do you think he is looking at Anderson and
2167
01:46:17.520 --> 01:46:20.159
Gallows right and add to that AJ as a separate.
2168
01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:25.960
Discussion, Well, I think your point there is very valid
2169
01:46:26.000 --> 01:46:28.920
of that's how Vince always did look at people in
2170
01:46:28.960 --> 01:46:31.560
the past. But it seems to me again I'm not
2171
01:46:31.600 --> 01:46:35.119
on the inside anymore, but just by what I'm seeing
2172
01:46:35.159 --> 01:46:39.039
on television, I think Vince realizes that it's a different
2173
01:46:39.079 --> 01:46:42.960
era and people have access to you know, people can
2174
01:46:43.000 --> 01:46:45.039
watch Ring of Honor now if they want. People can
2175
01:46:45.079 --> 01:46:48.479
watch you know, everything is available now, there's YouTube, there's
2176
01:46:48.560 --> 01:46:51.680
videos you can't really it's not like the old days
2177
01:46:51.680 --> 01:46:54.720
where only WW exists and no one else knows about it.
2178
01:46:54.760 --> 01:46:56.600
People know there are other things out there, and they're
2179
01:46:56.880 --> 01:46:59.560
familiar with some of these guys. And I think you
2180
01:46:59.600 --> 01:47:01.720
can see that by the fact that Gallas and Anderson
2181
01:47:02.159 --> 01:47:05.319
have gotten a prime spot immediately. They came in as
2182
01:47:05.600 --> 01:47:08.600
friends of AJ styles and were inserted right into main
2183
01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:11.560
event angles with attacking the top baby face on the roster.
2184
01:47:12.399 --> 01:47:15.000
AJ Styles comes in and you know, a couple months
2185
01:47:15.079 --> 01:47:18.079
later he's in pay per view main events, and that's
2186
01:47:18.119 --> 01:47:21.439
all because of their reputations before coming into WW. So
2187
01:47:21.520 --> 01:47:26.000
I think there's some recognition now on Vince's part of Okay,
2188
01:47:26.680 --> 01:47:28.760
a good single of our audience knows who they are.
2189
01:47:28.840 --> 01:47:31.680
These guys are already established and we can take it
2190
01:47:31.720 --> 01:47:34.239
from there. Now you can poke holes in that as
2191
01:47:34.279 --> 01:47:36.199
well and say, well, at the end of the day, though,
2192
01:47:36.279 --> 01:47:38.439
Vince is going to make it seem that those guys
2193
01:47:38.600 --> 01:47:41.359
wherever they were, it ultimately doesn't mean as much as
2194
01:47:41.439 --> 01:47:43.960
it does here whatever they accomplished, and I think you
2195
01:47:43.960 --> 01:47:46.159
can hear some of that in the commentary where the
2196
01:47:46.199 --> 01:47:48.720
announcers are being fed lines of you know, well, it's
2197
01:47:48.760 --> 01:47:51.079
great that you were champion here or there, but until
2198
01:47:51.079 --> 01:47:53.159
you've done it here, it doesn't matter. And I think
2199
01:47:53.239 --> 01:47:56.319
that's not only you know, a work on TV. I
2200
01:47:56.319 --> 01:47:58.439
think there's a shoot aspect of that as well as
2201
01:47:58.520 --> 01:48:00.199
that you have to come in here improve your off
2202
01:48:00.239 --> 01:48:02.600
from what you did before doesn't really matter, but the
2203
01:48:02.680 --> 01:48:06.439
acknowledgment that guys existed before and have passed. I think
2204
01:48:06.560 --> 01:48:10.239
Vince has made progress and has evolved on that to
2205
01:48:10.279 --> 01:48:12.600
some extent. You know, AJ's not coming in and given
2206
01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:15.840
a new name and a new character, and you know
2207
01:48:16.359 --> 01:48:19.039
he's not you know, it's not like Barry Wyndham going
2208
01:48:19.079 --> 01:48:20.840
and becoming the Loo Maker, you know what I mean.
2209
01:48:20.920 --> 01:48:24.640
Like it's it's it's an acknowledgement that it's a different
2210
01:48:24.640 --> 01:48:26.760
world now and a lot of people are familiar with
2211
01:48:26.840 --> 01:48:28.680
things other wrestling companies.
2212
01:48:28.720 --> 01:48:31.680
Is just ww Are you surprised that the acknowledgement of
2213
01:48:31.720 --> 01:48:34.399
New Japan specifically as as a company that they mentioned
2214
01:48:34.439 --> 01:48:35.399
the name of on television.
2215
01:48:36.680 --> 01:48:38.439
I'm not really surprised by it because I don't think
2216
01:48:38.439 --> 01:48:43.199
they necessarily see New Japan as you know, they're not
2217
01:48:43.239 --> 01:48:46.760
a domestic competitor. You know, you would never hear TNA mentioned.
2218
01:48:47.159 --> 01:48:49.520
It's funny. You don't hear Ring of Honor mentioned anymore
2219
01:48:49.560 --> 01:48:51.479
where I think at one point they were a little
2220
01:48:51.520 --> 01:48:55.159
more open to ro Oh, it's not It doesn't really
2221
01:48:55.199 --> 01:48:57.239
surprise me. What I have noticed is they'll never say
2222
01:48:57.239 --> 01:48:59.720
New Japan pro wrestling. Have you noticed it's always New Japan.
2223
01:49:00.039 --> 01:49:02.159
Ah, that's a good observation because you.
2224
01:49:02.119 --> 01:49:05.159
Can't say pro wrestling on the WWE show.
2225
01:49:06.479 --> 01:49:08.680
Yeah, it's it's It's interesting because I hear the word
2226
01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:12.399
wrestler and title more often in the last month or
2227
01:49:12.439 --> 01:49:17.159
two than I had prior. Charlotte talks about being a woman,
2228
01:49:17.840 --> 01:49:20.479
a great female of great woman wrestler, and I hear
2229
01:49:20.520 --> 01:49:23.239
even the announcers using that and instead of championship. Like
2230
01:49:23.279 --> 01:49:24.680
when I'm, you know, typing up my report on the
2231
01:49:24.680 --> 01:49:27.479
TV shows, I was, it's slightly snarky, but I you know,
2232
01:49:27.560 --> 01:49:29.279
joke that, oh, someone's gonna be fine. You know, Michael
2233
01:49:29.319 --> 01:49:31.359
Cole said, title, not championship. You know, I played the
2234
01:49:31.439 --> 01:49:34.079
role of the tattletale as a you know, rib on
2235
01:49:34.159 --> 01:49:37.840
the silly sort of silly rules. And and yet so
2236
01:49:37.880 --> 01:49:39.920
I've been noticing that more often I might ear open
2237
01:49:39.920 --> 01:49:42.640
for that. I don't know if if it's just Vince
2238
01:49:42.720 --> 01:49:45.239
being thrown his arms up going I just can't, you know,
2239
01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:47.199
there's gonna be we gotta slip it in now and then,
2240
01:49:47.680 --> 01:49:49.680
or if he thinks that too many people were aware
2241
01:49:49.680 --> 01:49:52.239
of it and we're mocking it, so we'll let it
2242
01:49:52.279 --> 01:49:56.239
in a little bit. What were you surprised at all
2243
01:49:56.760 --> 01:50:00.800
about the various rules and how they were enforced and
2244
01:50:00.880 --> 01:50:02.960
did you end up warming up to them in ways
2245
01:50:02.960 --> 01:50:04.079
you didn't expect.
2246
01:50:05.439 --> 01:50:07.560
Well, I don't know that I warmed up to him,
2247
01:50:07.600 --> 01:50:09.920
but we had no choice put to adhere to them. Obviously,
2248
01:50:10.640 --> 01:50:12.439
I thought some of it was silly, like it was
2249
01:50:12.680 --> 01:50:15.399
they were worried about all the wrong things. Yeah, on
2250
01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:17.960
the on the on the bigger picture scale, I understand
2251
01:50:17.960 --> 01:50:20.960
why Vince wanted to get away from traditional pro wrestling
2252
01:50:21.319 --> 01:50:23.079
and some uh, you know, as far as the perception
2253
01:50:23.159 --> 01:50:26.239
of it, because he wanted to be entertainment because look,
2254
01:50:26.279 --> 01:50:28.039
I mean, you know, you've been around this business your
2255
01:50:28.079 --> 01:50:31.279
whole life. As if I to people who aren't fans,
2256
01:50:31.359 --> 01:50:33.600
they still to this day look at it as lowbrow
2257
01:50:33.800 --> 01:50:37.399
entertainment and it's it's it's that old, it's that fake stuff,
2258
01:50:37.479 --> 01:50:39.760
and you know, and I think Vin's very aware of that.
2259
01:50:39.960 --> 01:50:42.640
Was trying to break people's perceptions of it. And that's
2260
01:50:42.680 --> 01:50:46.439
why he didn't want you know, wrestling or the you
2261
01:50:46.479 --> 01:50:49.159
know belt or things like that mentioned all the time,
2262
01:50:49.159 --> 01:50:51.079
because he was trying to get away from those old,
2263
01:50:51.520 --> 01:50:54.239
preconceived notions that that people had about the business. That
2264
01:50:54.279 --> 01:50:56.319
he was trying to you know, convert them and show
2265
01:50:56.640 --> 01:50:59.119
people on Madison Avenue that no, that's not what we are.
2266
01:50:59.199 --> 01:51:02.119
We're an entertainment company now, so I understood as thinking.
2267
01:51:02.560 --> 01:51:04.800
But on the other hand, I did think some of
2268
01:51:04.840 --> 01:51:06.800
it was a little silly with you know, you couldn't
2269
01:51:06.840 --> 01:51:09.840
say belt, you know, goddamn it, a belts would hold
2270
01:51:09.880 --> 01:51:12.680
your pants up, and that's what he would say to us,
2271
01:51:12.720 --> 01:51:15.920
you know, but you could sometimes stay championship belt. You know,
2272
01:51:15.960 --> 01:51:17.119
if you were going to stay belt, you had to
2273
01:51:17.159 --> 01:51:20.000
say championship in front of it. But title is preferred
2274
01:51:20.079 --> 01:51:22.399
or championship. You know, we could never say that something
2275
01:51:22.439 --> 01:51:26.000
was a non title match. He thought that that was
2276
01:51:26.000 --> 01:51:28.680
a downer. If a champion was in a match and
2277
01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:31.760
it wasn't specifically said, this is a championship match, then
2278
01:51:32.079 --> 01:51:34.680
you just didn't say anything and you let people figure
2279
01:51:34.680 --> 01:51:36.920
it out for themselves that the title wasn't on the line.
2280
01:51:37.119 --> 01:51:39.079
At one point he played with the idea of calling
2281
01:51:39.119 --> 01:51:42.159
it a title free match, and we actually would have
2282
01:51:42.239 --> 01:51:45.119
to we actually had to write that into the script. Well,
2283
01:51:45.520 --> 01:51:46.920
if a champion was in a match, we would have
2284
01:51:47.000 --> 01:51:49.720
to put in parentheses title free match. And for a
2285
01:51:49.760 --> 01:51:52.000
brief period of time, I think the announcers actually did
2286
01:51:52.199 --> 01:51:55.479
use that term on TV soil even Vince realize how
2287
01:51:55.560 --> 01:51:58.600
ridiculous that sounded, but you know, I couldn't say non
2288
01:51:58.640 --> 01:52:02.159
title because that was a negative. You know, like little
2289
01:52:02.159 --> 01:52:04.439
things like that that he would get hung up on
2290
01:52:04.600 --> 01:52:07.039
would yeah, it would re lake. Men, you can't see
2291
01:52:07.079 --> 01:52:08.640
the forest for the trees. Like, we've got bigger things
2292
01:52:08.640 --> 01:52:10.800
to worry about and whether or not somebody says wrestling
2293
01:52:10.880 --> 01:52:15.119
or the belt. But again to the larger I understood
2294
01:52:15.319 --> 01:52:16.960
why how he was trying to, you know, sort of
2295
01:52:16.960 --> 01:52:21.119
break down people's perceptions or preconceived notions of what the
2296
01:52:21.159 --> 01:52:23.399
business used to be and what it is now.
2297
01:52:23.840 --> 01:52:27.039
Yeah, yeah, I think I right with you. I mean
2298
01:52:27.239 --> 01:52:29.720
I get, especially coming out of the eighties and wanting
2299
01:52:29.760 --> 01:52:32.520
to sell his product advertisers in the roadblocks he and
2300
01:52:32.640 --> 01:52:35.840
NBC ran into, and in syndication he ran into, oh
2301
01:52:35.880 --> 01:52:39.199
it's pro wrestling. No, no, we're sports entertainment. And sometimes
2302
01:52:39.279 --> 01:52:43.640
it's not even that. It has to be something that
2303
01:52:44.119 --> 01:52:47.159
passes a credibility test if you examine it. But sometimes
2304
01:52:47.199 --> 01:52:49.279
all you need to do is give that advertising rep
2305
01:52:50.239 --> 01:52:52.640
with Coca Cola or whatever company, just give him a
2306
01:52:52.680 --> 01:52:55.640
story to pass on to his superiors. Like so he
2307
01:52:55.720 --> 01:52:59.960
buys some spots on WWF and the exactly is worried
2308
01:53:00.039 --> 01:53:01.720
this boss is going to say we don't buy pro
2309
01:53:01.760 --> 01:53:03.720
wrestling and it just give the ad execut term to
2310
01:53:03.800 --> 01:53:05.920
use and said no, no, this is sports entertainment. This
2311
01:53:05.960 --> 01:53:08.119
is Vinc like, man, this is different than pro wrestling.
2312
01:53:08.119 --> 01:53:10.920
And the guy upstairs was, oh, oh, well they never mind.
2313
01:53:11.119 --> 01:53:12.960
Like I don't even know that Vince, even with a
2314
01:53:13.000 --> 01:53:15.960
straight faces is is always saying this with a straight face.
2315
01:53:16.000 --> 01:53:17.760
I know he looked at Steve Austin and goes, my
2316
01:53:17.880 --> 01:53:21.399
dad promoted pro wrestling, We do sports entertainment. And it
2317
01:53:21.439 --> 01:53:24.600
was with such disdain that I was like, wow, So,
2318
01:53:24.760 --> 01:53:26.600
I mean, it does seem like there's more to it
2319
01:53:27.159 --> 01:53:30.439
than just I got to give the advertisers and networks
2320
01:53:30.479 --> 01:53:33.560
some fake term to believe in. It seems like there's
2321
01:53:33.600 --> 01:53:36.000
more to it than that. But I also see it
2322
01:53:36.039 --> 01:53:38.720
as at least originating as just a tool to redefine
2323
01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:40.039
and sell it differently.
2324
01:53:41.560 --> 01:53:43.159
Yeah, I think a lot of it. I do think
2325
01:53:43.199 --> 01:53:46.000
it was in some you know, they wanted to lure
2326
01:53:46.119 --> 01:53:50.760
obviously the real big name advertisers, sponsors, you know, and
2327
01:53:50.800 --> 01:53:53.680
I think if they felt like they could re classify
2328
01:53:53.760 --> 01:53:55.800
what I do think Vince believed that to some extent
2329
01:53:56.359 --> 01:53:58.319
that that would be you know, successful as far as
2330
01:53:58.359 --> 01:54:00.960
getting those sponsors on board, but a lot of it
2331
01:54:01.000 --> 01:54:04.359
too was you know, Vince felt like he evolved the
2332
01:54:04.359 --> 01:54:07.199
business and the commedy made to Steve Austin. He would
2333
01:54:07.199 --> 01:54:10.039
say to us at times too, you know, Rastling, that's
2334
01:54:10.079 --> 01:54:13.800
what my dad did and this is not that. And
2335
01:54:13.880 --> 01:54:17.960
I understood it. Again, I don't think Vince would have
2336
01:54:18.000 --> 01:54:20.640
built ww into the empire that it's been built into
2337
01:54:20.760 --> 01:54:23.479
if he would have not evolved the business and would
2338
01:54:23.479 --> 01:54:26.680
still be promoting it as you know, doing business away
2339
01:54:26.720 --> 01:54:29.039
the Capital Wrestling Company hit back in the in the
2340
01:54:29.079 --> 01:54:32.199
old days. You know, It's just everything has to evolve
2341
01:54:32.359 --> 01:54:36.560
and and and I think Vince evolved it, and you know,
2342
01:54:37.239 --> 01:54:39.000
takes the light in saying that he's the one that
2343
01:54:39.039 --> 01:54:39.600
evolved it.
2344
01:54:40.199 --> 01:54:42.239
Being a fan as long as you have and and
2345
01:54:42.399 --> 01:54:44.319
a fan even when you've worked covered it as a
2346
01:54:44.319 --> 01:54:47.159
as a journalist and writer and columnist and at working
2347
01:54:47.159 --> 01:54:49.560
in it, you're still a fan the whole way and
2348
01:54:49.640 --> 01:54:52.560
following it and studying it. I'm curious on your opinion
2349
01:54:52.560 --> 01:54:56.359
because I don't think that there was ever this transition,
2350
01:54:56.840 --> 01:55:00.159
this magical transitory moment where it went from progress to
2351
01:55:00.199 --> 01:55:03.680
sports entertainment. I can't get anybody to explain to me
2352
01:55:04.119 --> 01:55:08.880
what the difference is. That isn't something that is consistent.
2353
01:55:09.039 --> 01:55:12.760
I think, on on a line on a graph, that
2354
01:55:12.800 --> 01:55:14.640
the industry has always been changing. I mean, if you
2355
01:55:14.680 --> 01:55:17.319
go back to nineteen hundred, it was different in nineteen thirty,
2356
01:55:17.479 --> 01:55:19.439
and then it was different in nineteen fifty five, and
2357
01:55:19.479 --> 01:55:21.640
then it was different in nineteen seventy, and then by
2358
01:55:21.760 --> 01:55:23.960
nineteen eighty three it was different, and then by two
2359
01:55:23.960 --> 01:55:26.079
thousand or by nineteen ninety it was different, and by
2360
01:55:26.159 --> 01:55:27.960
ninety seven it was different, and then in two thousand
2361
01:55:27.960 --> 01:55:30.720
and five it was like, to me, it's a continuum
2362
01:55:31.159 --> 01:55:34.760
and it's just this arbitrary marker where Vince goes. He
2363
01:55:34.920 --> 01:55:37.720
changed it into something that's sports entertainment. But to me,
2364
01:55:38.319 --> 01:55:40.840
if you point out any differences, I say, those differences
2365
01:55:40.880 --> 01:55:43.600
between now and ninety five or ninety five and eighty
2366
01:55:43.640 --> 01:55:45.479
five are no different than eighty five to seventy five
2367
01:55:45.560 --> 01:55:47.520
or seventy five to sixty five. So that's where I
2368
01:55:47.560 --> 01:55:49.880
don't really give this idea that it's now something different
2369
01:55:50.000 --> 01:55:50.760
any credence.
2370
01:55:53.159 --> 01:55:56.520
Well, I do think, you know, yeah, it was a
2371
01:55:56.560 --> 01:55:59.840
difference from the fifties to the sixties to the seventies.
2372
01:55:59.880 --> 01:56:02.720
It sure it changed, not that I go back to
2373
01:56:02.720 --> 01:56:05.880
the fifties and the sixties, but you know, being a.
2374
01:56:05.520 --> 01:56:10.359
I interviewed and Louth as thought wrestling in the seventies
2375
01:56:10.399 --> 01:56:15.119
and eighties was a bunch of acrobats disgracing the art
2376
01:56:15.199 --> 01:56:16.960
form of the forties, fifties and sixties.
2377
01:56:18.439 --> 01:56:21.159
Well, sure, obviously styles change. I mean, it's just like
2378
01:56:21.199 --> 01:56:23.560
any form of entertainment or sports. You know, it was
2379
01:56:23.560 --> 01:56:25.920
different in Bay Bruce day than it wasn't very Bonds
2380
01:56:25.920 --> 01:56:28.520
to day, and it's different you know today, Mike Trouts day.
2381
01:56:28.520 --> 01:56:32.279
I mean, I get it, everything evolves. But to me,
2382
01:56:32.479 --> 01:56:34.880
the general idea of pro wrestling the way it was
2383
01:56:34.920 --> 01:56:40.359
done in the Territory days. While styles changed and technology
2384
01:56:40.439 --> 01:56:43.960
changed as far as TV or whatever cable, it was
2385
01:56:44.000 --> 01:56:47.079
still basically pro wrestling in the sense that it was
2386
01:56:47.079 --> 01:56:51.760
a very protected business. Yes, the average person probably said
2387
01:56:51.840 --> 01:56:54.399
all this stuff's all fake, but it was never acknowledged
2388
01:56:54.439 --> 01:56:55.960
by the people in the business, and a lot of
2389
01:56:56.000 --> 01:56:59.479
people that were fans did believe. I think the big change,
2390
01:56:59.479 --> 01:57:01.439
if you're looking at the big marker, it really was
2391
01:57:01.479 --> 01:57:05.119
in the eighties when Vince took it national and you know,
2392
01:57:05.840 --> 01:57:07.800
came out and basically said, but by the way the
2393
01:57:07.800 --> 01:57:10.399
product was on TV, it was hitting you over the
2394
01:57:10.439 --> 01:57:12.640
head with the fact that it was entertainment. But then
2395
01:57:12.680 --> 01:57:14.560
he just came right out and said it in New
2396
01:57:14.640 --> 01:57:17.239
Jersey that you know, landmarked here. He just basically came
2397
01:57:17.279 --> 01:57:19.119
out and said yeah, because he didn't want it to
2398
01:57:19.159 --> 01:57:22.640
be the State Athletic Commission involved. He basic said, yeah,
2399
01:57:22.640 --> 01:57:25.840
this is all a work, this is an exhibition. And
2400
01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:28.279
the way you saw celebrities brought into it, I think
2401
01:57:28.279 --> 01:57:30.760
that was a change that was much different than the
2402
01:57:30.800 --> 01:57:34.239
fifties to the seventies or loose des to Bob backlan eras.
2403
01:57:34.680 --> 01:57:37.560
I think that changed the whole landscape, you know, Vince
2404
01:57:37.600 --> 01:57:41.479
taking it national, Vince making it more entertainment based, Vince
2405
01:57:41.560 --> 01:57:43.800
kind of winking at you say, you know, we're not
2406
01:57:43.840 --> 01:57:45.840
going to fight to the death anymore, that this is
2407
01:57:46.319 --> 01:57:49.079
this is phony Rastlin, We're kind of winking at you
2408
01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:51.920
and letting you in on the joke, not the joke,
2409
01:57:51.960 --> 01:57:54.359
but letting you in on what it is. I think
2410
01:57:54.439 --> 01:57:57.399
that was really the big change, and that's that's something
2411
01:57:57.399 --> 01:58:00.000
that Vince brought in that. I mean, let's be honest,
2412
01:58:00.399 --> 01:58:02.880
you know, other promoters wanted to kill him over that.
2413
01:58:03.000 --> 01:58:05.279
You know, they thought he was going to destroy which
2414
01:58:05.479 --> 01:58:07.439
the wrestling business, which I guess for them he did.
2415
01:58:08.359 --> 01:58:10.119
He's the last you know man, he was the last
2416
01:58:10.119 --> 01:58:12.560
man standing. But you know that that was going to
2417
01:58:12.640 --> 01:58:16.159
just ruin everything. And obviously, you know, I don't know
2418
01:58:16.199 --> 01:58:18.600
what would have happened had Vince not gone that way.
2419
01:58:18.680 --> 01:58:21.239
I don't know what wrestling would look like. Now. Somebody
2420
01:58:21.279 --> 01:58:23.520
probably would have gone national, and I think the territory
2421
01:58:23.560 --> 01:58:26.039
thing was going to die up, you know, anyway, it
2422
01:58:26.079 --> 01:58:29.600
was gonna just with technology and everything else. It wasn't
2423
01:58:29.600 --> 01:58:32.239
going to say what it was. So to me, that's
2424
01:58:32.079 --> 01:58:34.760
the that's the change is is the mid eighties, Vince
2425
01:58:34.800 --> 01:58:38.399
went national. Vince said this is a work and come
2426
01:58:38.439 --> 01:58:40.880
along for the ride and and we're going to be
2427
01:58:41.039 --> 01:58:43.199
you know, Vince has said it before. He wanted to
2428
01:58:43.199 --> 01:58:46.039
be Disney. You know, he didn't want to be just
2429
01:58:46.079 --> 01:58:48.600
a pro wrestling company. He wanted to take ww and
2430
01:58:48.720 --> 01:58:51.920
make it a brand like Disney. And that it's completely
2431
01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:54.680
different from you know, you know, verne Gania never thought
2432
01:58:54.720 --> 01:58:56.560
that way, you know, the Van you know, Fritz von
2433
01:58:56.720 --> 01:58:59.279
Eric never thought you know, name any promoter, no one
2434
01:58:59.319 --> 01:59:03.640
had that vision and accept Vince. So, yeah, the business
2435
01:59:03.760 --> 01:59:06.439
changed from air that from decade to decade, but not
2436
01:59:06.560 --> 01:59:09.279
the major change that that Vin's brought in. And it's
2437
01:59:09.319 --> 01:59:11.800
taken it too, and he's pretty close, i think, to
2438
01:59:11.920 --> 01:59:15.119
realizing his huge vision of what he wanted it to be.
2439
01:59:15.319 --> 01:59:19.960
I mean, mainstream acceptance now of ww While it's still
2440
01:59:20.000 --> 01:59:22.840
not where they want it to be, it's amazing that
2441
01:59:22.880 --> 01:59:24.880
it's gotten to this level. It's bigger than it was,
2442
01:59:25.119 --> 01:59:27.560
you know in the eighties when people kind of saw
2443
01:59:27.560 --> 01:59:29.840
it as a fad and hey, it's the hot thing
2444
01:59:29.840 --> 01:59:33.560
in pop culture. Now you know, let's let's let's you know,
2445
01:59:33.600 --> 01:59:35.760
it's kind of funny, it's you know, hey, wrestling's big again.
2446
01:59:36.159 --> 01:59:39.640
It's different now they are more accepted. They are a
2447
01:59:39.720 --> 01:59:43.279
more accepted for mainstream entertainment than they've ever been at
2448
01:59:43.279 --> 01:59:46.039
any point. And you could see them everywhere now. You know,
2449
01:59:46.119 --> 01:59:50.600
they're on ESPN Sports Center, you know, they're the entertainment shows,
2450
01:59:50.600 --> 01:59:53.720
cover them, you.
2451
01:59:53.760 --> 01:59:55.199
Walk into Toys r US and there's a huge ass
2452
01:59:55.199 --> 01:59:58.680
way for John Cena And that's and I think with
2453
01:59:58.800 --> 02:00:01.159
the acceptance part of it is, I think the generation
2454
02:00:01.239 --> 02:00:02.880
there's a generation of people who were part of that
2455
02:00:02.880 --> 02:00:05.760
Monday Night War era where it was a boom period,
2456
02:00:06.039 --> 02:00:11.600
and those people who are kids that adolescence, teens, college age, whatever,
2457
02:00:11.800 --> 02:00:14.119
they're now the ones who are making all the decisions
2458
02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:17.359
in the corporate world and the media landscape, and so
2459
02:00:17.520 --> 02:00:20.199
they're like, well, I don't snub my nose at Stone
2460
02:00:20.279 --> 02:00:22.920
Cold in the nWo. I love DDP. And I mean
2461
02:00:22.960 --> 02:00:25.720
it's like so, I think part of that is it
2462
02:00:25.760 --> 02:00:28.079
took it took probably fifteen years for it to happen.
2463
02:00:28.119 --> 02:00:30.039
But the people who grew up as fans in the
2464
02:00:30.039 --> 02:00:32.319
Monday Night War era now are the ones who were like, yeah,
2465
02:00:32.319 --> 02:00:34.560
pro wrestling was really cool. It was really big once,
2466
02:00:34.600 --> 02:00:36.640
and it had a tough time for a while, but
2467
02:00:36.920 --> 02:00:39.399
my god, it's part of Americana. It's part of our culture.
2468
02:00:39.399 --> 02:00:42.239
And I think you're totally right. I mean, Vince McMahon
2469
02:00:42.279 --> 02:00:44.199
wanted it to get to the stage where he could
2470
02:00:44.199 --> 02:00:48.239
have I mean, WrestleMania is sometimes it feels more like
2471
02:00:48.239 --> 02:00:50.199
a corporate presentation. I think a couple of years ago
2472
02:00:50.199 --> 02:00:52.520
probably was overboard in that regard. It felt more like
2473
02:00:52.560 --> 02:00:54.680
a presentation for the people in the luxury suites than
2474
02:00:54.680 --> 02:00:57.239
a show for the fans. But it was also I
2475
02:00:57.239 --> 02:01:01.319
think this sort of just gleeful moment of accomplishment for
2476
02:01:01.359 --> 02:01:05.640
the McMahon family to have stadiums this full celebrities just
2477
02:01:05.680 --> 02:01:08.720
showing up without people going what a celebrity involved of
2478
02:01:08.760 --> 02:01:11.079
pro wrestling. So yeah, I think I think Vince and
2479
02:01:11.319 --> 02:01:13.439
then you had the WWW Network and being able to
2480
02:01:13.479 --> 02:01:16.079
be in his mind because he was obsessed with Ted
2481
02:01:16.119 --> 02:01:19.279
Turner in the nineties, and for him to now be
2482
02:01:19.359 --> 02:01:23.439
a guy who's doing live streaming on an on demand
2483
02:01:23.479 --> 02:01:25.680
over the top network, which the headlines this week are
2484
02:01:25.720 --> 02:01:27.600
Hulu and Netflix are gonna start doing that next year.
2485
02:01:27.840 --> 02:01:31.239
They're gonna have live live shows, live comedy, live sports,
2486
02:01:31.279 --> 02:01:34.800
live whatever, live news. There's gonna be channels that are live,
2487
02:01:35.119 --> 02:01:38.479
and Vincent man can always go we did that first.
2488
02:01:39.680 --> 02:01:41.159
You know, he claims he did pay per view first,
2489
02:01:41.199 --> 02:01:42.880
and I mean others did pay per view before him,
2490
02:01:42.880 --> 02:01:45.039
but not at the scale he did. So I think
2491
02:01:45.119 --> 02:01:47.239
Vince will be happy, and I think the network was
2492
02:01:47.279 --> 02:01:51.119
a big part of that. iPhone users, if you're listening
2493
02:01:51.159 --> 02:01:53.640
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02:01:53.960 --> 02:01:57.199
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02:01:57.239 --> 02:02:01.199
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02:02:01.199 --> 02:02:03.720
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02:02:03.800 --> 02:02:06.319
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02:02:06.439 --> 02:02:09.600
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02:02:12.840 --> 02:02:16.000
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02:02:16.039 --> 02:02:18.560
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02:02:18.640 --> 02:02:20.640
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02:02:30.520 --> 02:02:33.359
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02:02:33.520 --> 02:02:35.800
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variety of other VIP exclusives. Just search pw Torch in
2509
02:02:39.399 --> 02:02:43.239
your Apple podcast app. Talk about a little bit that
2510
02:02:44.119 --> 02:02:47.119
your observations with ww ME Network in its formative stages
2511
02:02:47.159 --> 02:02:48.279
and the starts and stops.
2512
02:02:50.239 --> 02:02:52.720
We were convinced for a while. I know internally that
2513
02:02:53.000 --> 02:02:54.359
we just didn't think the things that were going to
2514
02:02:54.359 --> 02:02:56.720
get off the ground because we had heard so much
2515
02:02:56.720 --> 02:02:59.640
about it, and you're right, We didn't get a lot
2516
02:02:59.680 --> 02:03:02.920
of infrom but you know, there were stops and starts,
2517
02:03:02.960 --> 02:03:07.479
and it was envisioned as you probably know as a
2518
02:03:07.479 --> 02:03:09.880
as a TV network, you know, sort of like the
2519
02:03:09.960 --> 02:03:15.680
NFL network or MLB or whatever, Oprah's network, Oxygen, and
2520
02:03:15.960 --> 02:03:18.319
that just never it never got off the ground. And
2521
02:03:18.359 --> 02:03:20.439
I don't know the particulars of that as to why
2522
02:03:20.479 --> 02:03:23.960
it didn't, but whether it was I don't remember who
2523
02:03:24.000 --> 02:03:26.000
exactly it was that presented it to Vince, but once
2524
02:03:26.039 --> 02:03:28.279
the idea of an over the top, you know, streaming
2525
02:03:28.319 --> 02:03:31.119
format was presented, and as it kind of being the
2526
02:03:31.159 --> 02:03:33.239
new wave and the new way to do things, and
2527
02:03:33.319 --> 02:03:37.159
Vince it's pretty savvy. I mean, we can criticize creative
2528
02:03:37.159 --> 02:03:39.600
decisions sometimes or whatever, but you know, and he's made
2529
02:03:39.600 --> 02:03:42.239
some blunders business wise too, but he's also a very
2530
02:03:42.239 --> 02:03:46.199
savvy guy and he immediately recognized this is the way
2531
02:03:46.199 --> 02:03:50.520
to go to the WW network. And you know, I
2532
02:03:50.520 --> 02:03:53.720
don't think anyone can say I don't think anyone would
2533
02:03:53.760 --> 02:03:56.319
say that it's not a success as to where you know,
2534
02:03:56.359 --> 02:03:58.760
how it's grown one point eight million subscribers or whatever
2535
02:03:58.760 --> 02:04:01.640
it is, and they're expanding into other, you know, international markets.
2536
02:04:02.159 --> 02:04:03.840
You know, I think there was a sense that there
2537
02:04:03.840 --> 02:04:07.039
were people at W TOW who were hired specifically to
2538
02:04:07.119 --> 02:04:09.159
work on a network. I'm not talking about creative, but
2539
02:04:09.199 --> 02:04:11.720
in other aspects of the company who literally had nothing
2540
02:04:11.720 --> 02:04:13.520
to do. At times They're like, well, I was hired
2541
02:04:13.520 --> 02:04:16.399
for the network. There's no network. Yeah, you know, they
2542
02:04:16.399 --> 02:04:18.600
were having tom find other things to do. And I
2543
02:04:18.680 --> 02:04:20.520
know there was a lot of feeling of and this
2544
02:04:20.520 --> 02:04:22.279
thing ever going to get off the ground. Are they
2545
02:04:22.359 --> 02:04:24.640
just pissing in the wind here? Is this just wishful thinking?
2546
02:04:25.359 --> 02:04:28.359
But Vince was waiting for the right deal and and
2547
02:04:28.399 --> 02:04:31.119
for the right you know, he was waiting for the
2548
02:04:31.199 --> 02:04:33.279
right way to do it in the right format. And
2549
02:04:34.560 --> 02:04:36.199
I don't think we could say that he was wrong
2550
02:04:36.439 --> 02:04:39.000
by going this direction. I think they're going to see
2551
02:04:39.039 --> 02:04:42.079
more and more of over the top and streaming, and
2552
02:04:42.159 --> 02:04:43.439
I think that's going to be the way to go.
2553
02:04:43.560 --> 02:04:46.119
And you know, I don't I don't think if Vince
2554
02:04:46.159 --> 02:04:49.439
had pulled the trigger earlier and tried to get a
2555
02:04:49.560 --> 02:04:53.399
traditional TV network, he probably would be regretting it now,
2556
02:04:53.520 --> 02:04:56.239
because you know, I think this is the way to go,
2557
02:04:56.359 --> 02:05:00.640
and I think he recognized that and it's been a success.
2558
02:05:00.960 --> 02:05:02.960
Yeah, I mean, you could have done what HBO did
2559
02:05:03.039 --> 02:05:07.319
and well there's this, there's this on demand for our archives,
2560
02:05:07.319 --> 02:05:09.760
but you have to have a password with Exfinity or
2561
02:05:09.800 --> 02:05:11.600
Comcast or Time Warner or something to get to it,
2562
02:05:11.640 --> 02:05:14.840
like HBO go. And now you've got HBO now, which
2563
02:05:14.880 --> 02:05:17.800
is totally separate and it's totally disconnected. And so the
2564
02:05:18.840 --> 02:05:21.880
WWW network landed in a place, perhaps by accident or
2565
02:05:21.880 --> 02:05:24.279
second or third choice, that actually I'm with you. I
2566
02:05:24.319 --> 02:05:26.800
think it was in the long run, the best the
2567
02:05:26.840 --> 02:05:29.560
best course. Now, maybe they took a blow for a
2568
02:05:29.640 --> 02:05:32.520
year or two revenue wise, but for a company around
2569
02:05:32.560 --> 02:05:35.199
as long as WWB, with the cash reserves and the value,
2570
02:05:36.000 --> 02:05:38.760
I don't think you just try to judge them on well,
2571
02:05:38.800 --> 02:05:40.960
could they have gotten more money in twenty fourteen had
2572
02:05:41.000 --> 02:05:44.000
they not launched the network quite yet? Well maybe, I mean,
2573
02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:45.840
but you know, and Vince's even shrugged a little bit
2574
02:05:45.840 --> 02:05:49.000
and seta maybe we launched a little early, a little
2575
02:05:49.079 --> 02:05:50.800
you know, before the market was right for and people
2576
02:05:50.840 --> 02:05:53.279
were embracing the technology as much as they should. But
2577
02:05:53.359 --> 02:05:56.680
really that's just a small detail in the larger scheme
2578
02:05:56.720 --> 02:05:59.039
of whether it was the right decision in the long run.
2579
02:06:00.640 --> 02:06:01.960
Kevin do you have time for a couple of email
2580
02:06:02.039 --> 02:06:03.560
questions and then we'll wrap up. I know we've got
2581
02:06:03.560 --> 02:06:08.399
a couple hours here, so sure, okay, Alan from Ontario says,
2582
02:06:08.600 --> 02:06:10.359
my question is after the Rock lost the title the
2583
02:06:10.399 --> 02:06:13.279
Scena at WrestleMania, they announced on Raw the next night
2584
02:06:13.319 --> 02:06:16.079
that Rock had guaranteed rematch. I know he was injured
2585
02:06:16.079 --> 02:06:17.960
in the match and they had and had surgery, but
2586
02:06:18.119 --> 02:06:20.159
was there ever any intent on him doing the title
2587
02:06:20.199 --> 02:06:21.840
rematch on the next pay per view?
2588
02:06:23.720 --> 02:06:23.760
No?
2589
02:06:24.359 --> 02:06:32.439
Okay, no, yeah, yeah, yep. Boris from Chicago email, was
2590
02:06:32.520 --> 02:06:36.560
Damien Sandel's push taken away for being too over?
2591
02:06:40.199 --> 02:06:44.600
Well, you know the push being quote unquote taken away
2592
02:06:44.640 --> 02:06:48.960
happened after I left. I'll give you my perspective on it. Yeah,
2593
02:06:49.479 --> 02:06:53.119
I never I was there when the Damian Sandel character
2594
02:06:53.279 --> 02:06:57.000
was created and brought the TV. I thought Damien Sandel
2595
02:06:57.079 --> 02:07:03.920
the character was an entertaining mid card sort of comedic character. Okay.
2596
02:07:04.000 --> 02:07:07.399
I never saw him my opinion, as a top guy,
2597
02:07:07.439 --> 02:07:10.199
and anytime we had discussions about it, I was pretty
2598
02:07:10.239 --> 02:07:13.520
vocal about, you know, not everybody can be the world champion,
2599
02:07:13.560 --> 02:07:15.800
and I just don't see this character unless he's gonna
2600
02:07:15.960 --> 02:07:18.680
undergo a change. I don't see this character being the
2601
02:07:18.680 --> 02:07:21.520
world champion. When it came time for money in the bank,
2602
02:07:22.319 --> 02:07:24.600
if you remember, there were all heels in the money
2603
02:07:24.640 --> 02:07:26.640
in the bank that year, which was Vince's idea, which
2604
02:07:26.960 --> 02:07:29.960
none of us really quite understood, but he saw it
2605
02:07:30.000 --> 02:07:33.359
for whatever reason. It basically came down to two guys
2606
02:07:33.359 --> 02:07:36.560
for money in the bank, Wade Barrett or Damian Sandow.
2607
02:07:37.159 --> 02:07:40.000
And I was very much in the Wade Barrett camp
2608
02:07:40.159 --> 02:07:43.159
and thought, this is the guy. I've always believed in Wade.
2609
02:07:43.159 --> 02:07:45.640
I've always thought he should be a champion. He's got
2610
02:07:45.680 --> 02:07:49.560
the believability. I just don't buy Sandow. And I know
2611
02:07:49.640 --> 02:07:52.479
some of the producers had gotten in Vince's ear that
2612
02:07:52.920 --> 02:07:56.199
Sandow was being more aggressive at house shows and was
2613
02:07:56.239 --> 02:07:58.960
really starting to get it because Vincent had a problem
2614
02:07:59.000 --> 02:08:02.840
with the character being not believable enough as sort of
2615
02:08:02.880 --> 02:08:09.000
a tough character and you know, aggressive. So he was convinced, yes,
2616
02:08:09.039 --> 02:08:10.920
he could pull this off and he's the guy. I
2617
02:08:10.960 --> 02:08:14.039
never agreed with it, and I never once we put
2618
02:08:14.079 --> 02:08:17.079
the money in the bank briefcase on him. I always
2619
02:08:17.279 --> 02:08:21.520
was a proponent of let's have him either lose it
2620
02:08:21.560 --> 02:08:23.840
to someone else or let's have him cash in and
2621
02:08:23.880 --> 02:08:27.239
lose and ultimately, you know, I think the original plan
2622
02:08:27.399 --> 02:08:28.600
was they didn't give it to him for him to
2623
02:08:28.640 --> 02:08:30.319
lose it. It was like, at the time's right, He's
2624
02:08:30.319 --> 02:08:32.119
going to cash in and be the world champion. I
2625
02:08:32.239 --> 02:08:34.960
never saw. I just never believed it. And when we
2626
02:08:35.039 --> 02:08:37.520
finally got around to doing it and he cashed in
2627
02:08:37.560 --> 02:08:40.399
and lost to John Cena, and I said, you know what,
2628
02:08:41.079 --> 02:08:42.880
because I had nothing against the guy personally, I just
2629
02:08:42.920 --> 02:08:45.239
didn't believe in the character. I said, now that we've
2630
02:08:45.279 --> 02:08:47.920
gotten that briefcase off of him and he's cashed in
2631
02:08:47.960 --> 02:08:50.640
and he's lost, now could be maybe a good point
2632
02:08:50.920 --> 02:08:53.800
to relaunch the character, give him more of an edge
2633
02:08:54.000 --> 02:08:57.800
for having lost his cash in, and go from there.
2634
02:08:59.000 --> 02:09:01.119
I don't know. I just don't think Vince ever fully
2635
02:09:01.159 --> 02:09:03.359
believed in the character. Now after I left is when
2636
02:09:03.359 --> 02:09:06.640
they started doing the whole Mizdow thing, which started getting over.
2637
02:09:07.279 --> 02:09:10.079
I don't know why Vince, you know, heard all the
2638
02:09:10.199 --> 02:09:11.439
you know, this would have to be a question for
2639
02:09:11.520 --> 02:09:14.520
somebody who was still there after I left. I don't
2640
02:09:14.520 --> 02:09:17.279
know what the thinking was of the Misdeal character, how
2641
02:09:17.279 --> 02:09:21.159
it got over and why it was suddenly killed I
2642
02:09:21.199 --> 02:09:25.439
have no idea, because it did seem like that was
2643
02:09:25.479 --> 02:09:28.079
a once you broke up Miz and Sandow, it did
2644
02:09:28.119 --> 02:09:30.279
seem like, Okay, maybe we've got something. Maybe he's not
2645
02:09:30.279 --> 02:09:32.840
the world champion, but he's something, yeah, and we could
2646
02:09:32.840 --> 02:09:35.159
do something with him. I have no idea whether it
2647
02:09:35.199 --> 02:09:38.399
was Vince just didn't believe in him, whether sand Out
2648
02:09:39.199 --> 02:09:41.560
kissed off the wrong person. I have no clue what
2649
02:09:41.680 --> 02:09:44.560
happened to the point where now he's doing jobs on
2650
02:09:44.600 --> 02:09:48.039
Superstars in main event. I have no idea what led to.
2651
02:09:48.039 --> 02:09:50.760
At it seemed like there was this this pent up
2652
02:09:50.840 --> 02:09:52.840
energy fans wanted to see him turn on miss and
2653
02:09:52.880 --> 02:09:55.479
when it finally happened, yeah, it fizzled. And it seems
2654
02:09:55.520 --> 02:09:57.279
like they left some money on the table there, Kevin,
2655
02:09:57.319 --> 02:10:01.720
Who are their own biggest worst enemy among the wrestlers
2656
02:10:01.720 --> 02:10:03.560
on the roster, I think there's you know, people have
2657
02:10:03.600 --> 02:10:06.520
a perception maybe Rye back sticks his mouth too often,
2658
02:10:06.800 --> 02:10:08.479
you know in media interviews are behind the scenes or
2659
02:10:08.479 --> 02:10:12.319
something like that. What's your list of wrestlers who maybe
2660
02:10:12.359 --> 02:10:14.319
did themselves in unwittingly.
2661
02:10:15.479 --> 02:10:17.239
Well, I can tell you by reputation. One of the
2662
02:10:17.239 --> 02:10:18.760
guys at the top of the list was one of
2663
02:10:18.800 --> 02:10:21.640
the guys I was really pushing for a lot, which
2664
02:10:21.680 --> 02:10:26.239
is the current TNA World Champion, Drew Galloway. When I
2665
02:10:26.279 --> 02:10:28.840
got there, Drew wasn't in a great position, and I
2666
02:10:28.880 --> 02:10:31.319
always just watching him on TV. I always thought I
2667
02:10:31.359 --> 02:10:32.680
was a fan. I was a fan of his work,
2668
02:10:33.359 --> 02:10:36.399
but he had all the elements there. Again, not everybody
2669
02:10:36.439 --> 02:10:39.840
could be the World Champion of WW but better than
2670
02:10:39.920 --> 02:10:41.960
the spot that he was in. So I threw a
2671
02:10:41.960 --> 02:10:43.960
lot of ideas out there for Drew and things that
2672
02:10:43.960 --> 02:10:46.520
would kind of get him going up up the ladder again.
2673
02:10:47.239 --> 02:10:49.840
And he had that reputation, you know, I heard it
2674
02:10:49.880 --> 02:10:52.760
from a lot of the producers that he's his own
2675
02:10:52.760 --> 02:10:56.159
worst enemy, and it was there was a perception that
2676
02:10:56.640 --> 02:10:59.239
he always thought he knew better. That's what people would
2677
02:10:59.239 --> 02:11:02.479
tell me. I never encountered any of that anytime I
2678
02:11:02.560 --> 02:11:05.520
worked with him. He was very easy to work with
2679
02:11:05.760 --> 02:11:08.239
and but you know, apparently other lot of the producers
2680
02:11:08.239 --> 02:11:10.560
had a different perception. When he came to putting matches together,
2681
02:11:11.359 --> 02:11:14.159
he would throw out his ideas, you know, drews. The
2682
02:11:14.159 --> 02:11:16.119
way he related to me was I'm just giving him
2683
02:11:16.159 --> 02:11:19.199
my ideas and I'm just having a conversation. But they
2684
02:11:19.239 --> 02:11:22.319
took it as you always think you know better. We're
2685
02:11:22.520 --> 02:11:24.520
you know, we're telling you the way it is. We've
2686
02:11:24.520 --> 02:11:26.399
been around the business a lot longer than you. Kid
2687
02:11:27.119 --> 02:11:30.960
followed direction because he didn't do that. It was his
2688
02:11:31.359 --> 02:11:33.960
own worst enemy. He knows better than everybody else. I
2689
02:11:33.960 --> 02:11:36.479
had also been told before I got to the company
2690
02:11:36.840 --> 02:11:40.479
that he started to believe his his Chosen One like
2691
02:11:40.520 --> 02:11:42.920
he started to make it a like he really believed it.
2692
02:11:43.680 --> 02:11:46.119
But keep in mind, and I'm not being an apologist
2693
02:11:46.159 --> 02:11:47.640
for him, but keep in mind when he got that
2694
02:11:47.760 --> 02:11:50.279
Chosen One label and Vince said this guy's going to
2695
02:11:50.279 --> 02:11:53.319
be the next champion on TV that Drew was a
2696
02:11:53.319 --> 02:11:56.840
pretty young guy, you know, and and he was given
2697
02:11:56.880 --> 02:11:59.760
all this basically given the mantle, you know, or the
2698
02:12:00.399 --> 02:12:02.640
from Vince saying you're going to be the guy. And
2699
02:12:03.039 --> 02:12:06.800
apparently he carried himself backstage in a way. Again I
2700
02:12:06.840 --> 02:12:08.960
wasn't there, but that made some people believe, man, this
2701
02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:12.039
guy really believes his own bull that he's the guy
2702
02:12:12.039 --> 02:12:14.560
and he's better than everybody. So a couple of those things,
2703
02:12:14.640 --> 02:12:17.199
the perception that he was arrogant, perception that he didn't
2704
02:12:17.199 --> 02:12:20.319
take direction, and I always heard Drew's own worst enemy,
2705
02:12:20.800 --> 02:12:23.720
and there was nothing he could do to change that perception.
2706
02:12:23.840 --> 02:12:26.800
I had a pretty good relationship with him, so I
2707
02:12:26.880 --> 02:12:28.520
was honest with him, and I said, Drew, just so
2708
02:12:28.640 --> 02:12:31.760
you know, here is how people perceive you, and here's
2709
02:12:31.800 --> 02:12:34.520
what I've been hearing from the producers. And he seemed
2710
02:12:34.520 --> 02:12:36.960
to be shocked by it that it was to that extent,
2711
02:12:37.039 --> 02:12:38.600
and he's like, well, I'm going to change. I'm going
2712
02:12:38.640 --> 02:12:40.239
to convince them that that's not who I am. I'm
2713
02:12:40.239 --> 02:12:42.800
going to change their minds. And from that point on
2714
02:12:42.920 --> 02:12:46.199
he kept his mouth shut. He tried to be a
2715
02:12:46.239 --> 02:12:49.279
model employee, He did everything that was asked of him.
2716
02:12:49.479 --> 02:12:51.640
But what I learned was because I still continued to
2717
02:12:51.640 --> 02:12:53.960
pitch ideas for him, was that it was too late,
2718
02:12:54.199 --> 02:12:55.920
you know. And some of the producers who told me
2719
02:12:55.960 --> 02:12:58.199
he was his own worst enemy, later said, you know what,
2720
02:12:58.279 --> 02:13:00.199
I've really seen the change and your boy Drew like
2721
02:13:00.239 --> 02:13:03.279
he's he's a different guy now. But it didn't matter
2722
02:13:03.399 --> 02:13:06.640
because some of the powers that be, some of the
2723
02:13:06.680 --> 02:13:10.159
guys and the decision making positions, you can figure out
2724
02:13:10.159 --> 02:13:14.239
who just didn't didn't see it in him and and
2725
02:13:14.319 --> 02:13:15.960
weren't going to go there, and it didn't matter. That
2726
02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:18.319
his attitude or perceptions had changed. At that point. He
2727
02:13:18.399 --> 02:13:20.479
wasn't going to get pushed. But I constantly heard he's
2728
02:13:20.479 --> 02:13:22.560
his own worst enemy. He's the first guy that comes
2729
02:13:22.600 --> 02:13:24.039
to mind when you say that, the.
2730
02:13:24.039 --> 02:13:26.520
Die seems to get cast if you make a mistake,
2731
02:13:27.760 --> 02:13:30.279
and it's hard to overcome that. Anybody else come to mind.
2732
02:13:30.319 --> 02:13:31.840
I don't want to cut you off if a couple
2733
02:13:31.880 --> 02:13:32.840
other people popped in your mind.
2734
02:13:33.079 --> 02:13:34.479
I mean I heard it. I heard it about you know,
2735
02:13:34.520 --> 02:13:37.079
Dolph Ziggler to some extent as well. You know that
2736
02:13:37.439 --> 02:13:39.720
he thought he was the second coming of Seawn Michaels.
2737
02:13:39.760 --> 02:13:41.479
And again, a lot of it is in how you
2738
02:13:41.520 --> 02:13:44.479
carry yourself, you know, and sometimes I think confidence is
2739
02:13:44.600 --> 02:13:49.239
mistaken for arrogance, and you know, whether you don't, you're
2740
02:13:49.319 --> 02:13:53.359
considered a person who doesn't necessarily take direction. Well, so
2741
02:13:53.479 --> 02:13:55.640
Dolph kind of got some of that as well. You
2742
02:13:55.680 --> 02:13:59.079
know that he thinks he knows better. You can't teach
2743
02:13:59.159 --> 02:14:01.520
him anything. And I heard I heard a lot of that.
2744
02:14:01.640 --> 02:14:03.479
I mean, there was a lot of criticisms off that
2745
02:14:03.520 --> 02:14:06.159
I just couldn't believe that I heard when I was there, Like,
2746
02:14:06.199 --> 02:14:09.279
he doesn't he has bad instincts, you know, he sells
2747
02:14:09.279 --> 02:14:11.640
when he shouldn't, and he doesn't sell when he should.
2748
02:14:12.479 --> 02:14:14.760
I had heard too that I'd heard too he didn't
2749
02:14:14.760 --> 02:14:20.199
take advice from the producers and and felt like, hey,
2750
02:14:20.319 --> 02:14:22.920
I like the joke is, Hey, I watch Billy gunn
2751
02:14:22.920 --> 02:14:23.840
I know how to work.
2752
02:14:25.880 --> 02:14:26.039
Right.
2753
02:14:28.079 --> 02:14:29.960
But it seems like he was muldible. You know, there
2754
02:14:30.039 --> 02:14:31.560
was so much there, and I mean it was you know,
2755
02:14:31.600 --> 02:14:34.520
he and the concussion just derailed what seemed like was
2756
02:14:34.560 --> 02:14:36.039
going to be the best push of his career.
2757
02:14:37.079 --> 02:14:40.359
There's no question about it. But I can again, you know,
2758
02:14:40.560 --> 02:14:44.159
the biggest proponent of Dolph, his biggest fan in the
2759
02:14:44.199 --> 02:14:47.520
company was Pat Patterson. Pat was I mean almost to
2760
02:14:47.600 --> 02:14:51.239
a laughable extent. Pat would talk your ear off, my
2761
02:14:51.439 --> 02:14:54.279
god dog Biggler, they should give him the championship.
2762
02:14:54.520 --> 02:14:57.880
I got that speech from Pat. I can I can
2763
02:14:58.000 --> 02:15:01.159
second that. Yes, Yes, he.
2764
02:15:01.239 --> 02:15:05.119
Basically would tell anyone who would listen, and he would
2765
02:15:05.199 --> 02:15:07.439
do it meetings all the time. And I'll be honest
2766
02:15:07.439 --> 02:15:11.479
with you, Vince McMahon loves and respects Pat Patterson, but
2767
02:15:11.560 --> 02:15:15.000
I think almost as a rib on Pat, Vince was
2768
02:15:15.039 --> 02:15:17.680
not going to push Dolph to take a way for
2769
02:15:17.800 --> 02:15:22.039
rib Pat. You know, I almost think Pat's enthusiasm for
2770
02:15:22.119 --> 02:15:24.840
Dolf wasn't doing Dolph any favored in the long run.
2771
02:15:24.960 --> 02:15:26.279
But I can tell you. I can tell you this
2772
02:15:26.399 --> 02:15:31.439
wrestle Mania weekend the year that Dolph didn't win the
2773
02:15:31.760 --> 02:15:33.560
he was going to catch Everybody wanted him to cash
2774
02:15:33.560 --> 02:15:35.479
in that night, but he ended up passion in the
2775
02:15:35.520 --> 02:15:38.199
next night against del Rio.
2776
02:15:38.960 --> 02:15:39.119
Uh.
2777
02:15:39.840 --> 02:15:42.720
Pat just he pleaded and pleaded his case to have
2778
02:15:42.800 --> 02:15:45.399
Dolph have a moment at WrestleMania and cash in. And
2779
02:15:45.439 --> 02:15:47.640
it was a long discussion in the production meeting. Everybody
2780
02:15:47.640 --> 02:15:49.680
weighed in on it, and at the end Vince said, no,
2781
02:15:49.680 --> 02:15:52.159
we're not going to do it. The next night on Raw,
2782
02:15:52.359 --> 02:15:54.039
Vince is like, all right, we're going to do it tonight.
2783
02:15:54.079 --> 02:15:55.680
We you know, we're going to cash in. We need
2784
02:15:55.680 --> 02:15:58.399
a big moment tonight after all. But Vince when he
2785
02:15:58.520 --> 02:16:02.279
said that, was very clear that this is not this
2786
02:16:02.319 --> 02:16:04.920
does not mean we're pushing Dolph. This is to help
2787
02:16:04.960 --> 02:16:09.079
Alberto get over. And and so once again it was like,
2788
02:16:09.079 --> 02:16:11.000
we're gonna give this guy a little you know, we're
2789
02:16:11.000 --> 02:16:13.279
gonna pease everybody. We'll tease Pat and some of the
2790
02:16:13.279 --> 02:16:16.079
fans that want him to, but this isn't about Dolph. Ultimately,
2791
02:16:16.199 --> 02:16:19.720
this is about making Alberto so and and and everything
2792
02:16:19.760 --> 02:16:21.800
that's happened since then. You can see Dolf gets his
2793
02:16:21.960 --> 02:16:25.680
moments here and there. They recognize there's some value in him,
2794
02:16:26.039 --> 02:16:28.439
but he's never gonna get pushed to the top level.
2795
02:16:28.560 --> 02:16:31.720
And at this point, I don't think it would even work.
2796
02:16:31.760 --> 02:16:34.319
I don't think the fans we even want it at
2797
02:16:34.319 --> 02:16:34.760
this point.
2798
02:16:35.120 --> 02:16:37.559
I think sometimes the ship sails sadly. I mean, it's
2799
02:16:37.600 --> 02:16:40.440
just you know that they that die is cast and
2800
02:16:40.680 --> 02:16:44.360
it's hard to uh to redefine somebody who's been defined
2801
02:16:44.559 --> 02:16:48.000
down as something less than a main event guy, and
2802
02:16:48.120 --> 02:16:49.319
it becomes more of a struggle.
2803
02:16:51.000 --> 02:16:51.479
Ay stuff.
2804
02:16:51.479 --> 02:16:53.399
Do you ever watch a WWE and think it used
2805
02:16:53.399 --> 02:16:53.879
to be better?
2806
02:16:54.079 --> 02:16:56.000
I don't know, josh Sometimes I think it used to
2807
02:16:56.000 --> 02:16:56.920
be a whole lot worse.
2808
02:16:57.200 --> 02:16:59.000
I mean, whether it's WrestleMania main.
2809
02:16:58.799 --> 02:17:03.559
Events, the top too many titles, or women's wrestling.
2810
02:17:03.760 --> 02:17:06.559
We're here to answer the big question, is it worse
2811
02:17:06.879 --> 02:17:07.319
or better?
2812
02:17:07.440 --> 02:17:07.719
Now?
2813
02:17:08.120 --> 02:17:09.840
Join me Joshua.
2814
02:17:09.399 --> 02:17:11.879
White and me Stephanie Cheese.
2815
02:17:11.479 --> 02:17:14.399
For Worse or Better part of the PW Torch Daily
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02:17:14.440 --> 02:17:16.639
castline I'm dropping on Monday nights.
2817
02:17:16.639 --> 02:17:19.639
Such PW Torch in your podcast apps such as Apple
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02:17:19.680 --> 02:17:23.159
Podcasts or Spotify. To subscribe for free or get a
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02:17:23.159 --> 02:17:27.000
commercial free version with the PW Torch VIP membership. Check
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02:17:27.040 --> 02:17:30.479
out pw torch dot com slash go vip for details
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02:17:30.479 --> 02:17:31.799
of going vip.
2822
02:17:31.799 --> 02:17:32.520
Worse or better.
2823
02:17:32.840 --> 02:17:36.000
Finally, something for wrestling fans to do on Monday nights.
2824
02:17:38.200 --> 02:17:39.879
Let's close on this. It's kind of a light note,
2825
02:17:39.879 --> 02:17:42.639
but Brian has been a twenty five year peablew Torch
2826
02:17:42.639 --> 02:17:46.600
subscriber from Phoenix, and he says, what strange things occurred
2827
02:17:46.639 --> 02:17:49.200
during your stint? An example, on the corporate jet you
2828
02:17:49.200 --> 02:17:51.040
can't eat peanuts from the bowl. You have to pour
2829
02:17:51.079 --> 02:17:54.680
the peanuts into your hand. Did anything stand out in
2830
02:17:54.760 --> 02:17:56.920
terms of kind of quirky rules, either from physic man
2831
02:17:57.000 --> 02:17:57.959
or just the corporate culture.
2832
02:18:00.079 --> 02:18:01.920
Yeah, I mean I was. I was fortunate enough or
2833
02:18:02.040 --> 02:18:03.479
unfortunate how you look at it, to be on the
2834
02:18:03.520 --> 02:18:06.040
footbook jets a couple of times. And yeah, there were
2835
02:18:06.079 --> 02:18:10.360
some weird things. And you know, you definitely couldn't You
2836
02:18:10.360 --> 02:18:12.479
couldn't fall asleep on the jet. That was a no no.
2837
02:18:13.280 --> 02:18:16.399
Everybody had to stay awake no matter what there were.
2838
02:18:16.440 --> 02:18:18.840
There were weird rules and you probably heard other people
2839
02:18:18.840 --> 02:18:21.559
talk about it. But anytime you were around Vince. Around Vince,
2840
02:18:21.600 --> 02:18:25.319
you weren't allowed to sneeze for cough. I don't know
2841
02:18:25.319 --> 02:18:27.360
if you've heard people say that before, but if it
2842
02:18:27.440 --> 02:18:30.520
sounds like it's a joke, but it's one hundred percent true.
2843
02:18:30.920 --> 02:18:35.079
Vince saw sneezing as a sign of weakness, and a
2844
02:18:35.120 --> 02:18:38.799
couple of occasions, it probably only happened twice in my
2845
02:18:38.920 --> 02:18:42.200
three years there, but Vince would sneeze and he was
2846
02:18:42.280 --> 02:18:45.879
so angry at himself for sneezing. Ah, God damn it.
2847
02:18:47.479 --> 02:18:49.479
He was just so upset that he's knees and showed
2848
02:18:49.479 --> 02:18:51.399
weakness in front of all of them.
2849
02:18:51.639 --> 02:18:53.520
One time I got to show the couple times, well, good,
2850
02:18:53.559 --> 02:18:54.959
let me let me show a quick story that relates
2851
02:18:54.959 --> 02:18:57.159
exactly that, mor boy, because one time, this was back
2852
02:18:57.200 --> 02:18:59.280
in the nineties because Jim Cornett worked for the company then,
2853
02:19:00.159 --> 02:19:02.799
and I walked in the bar after one of the
2854
02:19:02.879 --> 02:19:05.600
one of the shows and it was a TV event
2855
02:19:05.639 --> 02:19:07.920
of some kind, and Vince was there and he was
2856
02:19:07.959 --> 02:19:09.360
sitting on and he was sitting at the bar with
2857
02:19:09.399 --> 02:19:14.559
Bruce Pritchard eating a cheese pizza and I walked in
2858
02:19:15.000 --> 02:19:18.559
and Vince looked at me and he looked at Bruce
2859
02:19:19.360 --> 02:19:21.680
and he just buried his head in his hands and
2860
02:19:21.719 --> 02:19:25.479
he's like, Wade, you cannot report this. This does not
2861
02:19:25.719 --> 02:19:28.760
happen very often. What are the odds that you walk
2862
02:19:28.760 --> 02:19:32.079
in it? This is off record. You cannot You cannot
2863
02:19:32.200 --> 02:19:35.200
report that I was eating cheese pizza. It'll ruin my reputation.
2864
02:19:35.239 --> 02:19:37.040
And I think he was hamming it up a little bit,
2865
02:19:37.120 --> 02:19:39.280
you know, aw Vince, but I think he was like,
2866
02:19:39.360 --> 02:19:41.719
you know, fifty sixty percent serious. He's really embarrassed, so
2867
02:19:42.120 --> 02:19:44.040
you know when he breaks his own rules about you know,
2868
02:19:44.079 --> 02:19:46.000
whatever it is. I know what you're saying, where he's
2869
02:19:46.000 --> 02:19:47.639
just kind of hard on himself and embarrassed.
2870
02:19:48.799 --> 02:19:51.559
Yeah, there were times, you know, because I think I
2871
02:19:51.600 --> 02:19:53.879
took one sick day my entire three years there, and
2872
02:19:53.879 --> 02:19:57.159
it's just which I was, you know, deathly ill, because
2873
02:19:57.159 --> 02:19:59.040
you just didn't call him sick either. I mean, Vince
2874
02:19:59.079 --> 02:20:01.200
was there at twenty four seven and you were supposed
2875
02:20:01.200 --> 02:20:02.479
to be there as well. There's no such thing as
2876
02:20:02.479 --> 02:20:05.200
a sick day. So there were times I would come
2877
02:20:05.239 --> 02:20:06.840
in when I probably should have been at home where
2878
02:20:06.840 --> 02:20:09.159
I had a bad cold or something. And remember one
2879
02:20:09.159 --> 02:20:11.000
time we had a booking meeting, and it was one
2880
02:20:11.040 --> 02:20:14.319
of our smaller booker meetings, booking meetings, excuse me. So
2881
02:20:14.360 --> 02:20:16.040
we would have every Thursday with Vince. It would just
2882
02:20:16.040 --> 02:20:18.360
be the head writers, so it'd be about five people
2883
02:20:18.360 --> 02:20:20.559
in the room with Vince. And I'm sitting there and
2884
02:20:20.559 --> 02:20:22.879
I had a bottle of water with me. But man,
2885
02:20:22.959 --> 02:20:25.079
I had a bad sore throat and a bad cough,
2886
02:20:25.360 --> 02:20:29.079
and I'm trying so hard to suppress this cough and
2887
02:20:29.120 --> 02:20:31.879
I could feel it and that feeling when you really
2888
02:20:31.920 --> 02:20:34.280
have to cough, and I'm drinking the water, I'm taking
2889
02:20:34.319 --> 02:20:37.479
sip after sip, and it's not working. I still feel
2890
02:20:37.479 --> 02:20:39.319
the need to cough, and I'm trying to suppress it
2891
02:20:39.360 --> 02:20:42.079
and my eyes are wading it so bad. Finally, I
2892
02:20:42.200 --> 02:20:44.840
just had to let it go. This horrible you know,
2893
02:20:45.040 --> 02:20:50.360
flemy cough fence stops. Everything looks at me like I
2894
02:20:50.440 --> 02:20:52.600
just said I wanted to, you know, have sex with
2895
02:20:52.639 --> 02:20:55.879
his mother or something. Just gave me this look of disgust,
2896
02:20:56.000 --> 02:20:59.360
and he said, God damn it, what is that tuberculosis?
2897
02:21:03.079 --> 02:21:05.639
And I just I was like, I'm sorry, sir, let
2898
02:21:05.639 --> 02:21:07.399
me excuse myself. And I had to get out of
2899
02:21:07.399 --> 02:21:09.079
the room, and you know, have a coughing fit in
2900
02:21:09.079 --> 02:21:11.319
the hallway and then come back in. You know, I
2901
02:21:11.360 --> 02:21:13.040
came back in and he gave me this look like
2902
02:21:13.079 --> 02:21:15.879
I should be ashamed of myself, and uh. And that
2903
02:21:16.000 --> 02:21:20.159
was that. But that was that was life inside inside
2904
02:21:20.159 --> 02:21:22.920
Titan cower to to a great extent. You mentioned that
2905
02:21:23.040 --> 02:21:25.840
mentioned the cheeseburger thing. Is that what you said? It
2906
02:21:25.879 --> 02:21:28.760
was a cheese yeah, Chie's pizza, Well, I have a cheeseburger. Story.
2907
02:21:28.840 --> 02:21:31.440
Wasn't me. It was another writer who's who's still there.
2908
02:21:31.440 --> 02:21:34.079
I won't mention his name, but it was at the
2909
02:21:34.079 --> 02:21:38.040
hotel one night he happened to catch Vince. It might
2910
02:21:38.040 --> 02:21:39.799
have been WrestleMania a weekend where we were staying at
2911
02:21:39.840 --> 02:21:43.719
the hotel for several days and uh. And Vince liked
2912
02:21:43.719 --> 02:21:45.840
to train a lot at night, late at night with
2913
02:21:45.959 --> 02:21:49.520
his trainer, and this particular writer was coming in. It
2914
02:21:49.680 --> 02:21:51.799
was late at night. He was coming in from doing
2915
02:21:51.799 --> 02:21:55.399
a McDonald's run, and you know, has his McDonald's bag
2916
02:21:55.520 --> 02:21:58.959
or whatever, and here's Vince in his workout clothes coming down,
2917
02:21:59.000 --> 02:22:01.959
you know, swaggering down to go into the gym, and
2918
02:22:02.000 --> 02:22:04.319
he runs right into the writer with the McDonald's bag
2919
02:22:04.600 --> 02:22:07.719
and he just he looked at him. He's like, ah,
2920
02:22:07.799 --> 02:22:11.879
how can you put that in your body? Disgusting? And
2921
02:22:11.920 --> 02:22:14.680
so the writer had to like after that, every time
2922
02:22:14.719 --> 02:22:16.799
he saw Vince, Vince would make some kind of remark
2923
02:22:16.840 --> 02:22:18.680
about how horrible he ate and how he ought to
2924
02:22:18.680 --> 02:22:22.079
get himself in shape. And so it was, uh, I mean,
2925
02:22:22.079 --> 02:22:24.840
you couldn't deny the man at sixty seven years sixty
2926
02:22:24.840 --> 02:22:27.680
eight years old, which when I was there in thixty seventy, now,
2927
02:22:29.040 --> 02:22:31.159
the discipline that he had, the way he kept himself
2928
02:22:31.159 --> 02:22:33.159
in shape. I would go to the gym a lot
2929
02:22:33.200 --> 02:22:35.440
of times on weekends, but the company gym has opened
2930
02:22:35.479 --> 02:22:37.440
all the employees. A lot of times when I would
2931
02:22:37.440 --> 02:22:39.440
go in, he would happen to be there, and man,
2932
02:22:39.479 --> 02:22:41.639
you see Vince just working out like a madman and
2933
02:22:41.639 --> 02:22:44.840
with his trainer there, and it's like, man, I better
2934
02:22:44.879 --> 02:22:47.200
put a few more plates on the on the bench
2935
02:22:47.200 --> 02:22:49.440
here else he's going to think I'm a week you know,
2936
02:22:49.520 --> 02:22:53.840
a weeks individual. So uh, yeah, it was uh, there
2937
02:22:53.879 --> 02:22:58.120
was a lot of uh, you know, being a real man,
2938
02:22:58.360 --> 02:23:01.600
quite you know kind of thing. And as some of
2939
02:23:01.639 --> 02:23:03.280
it was, I think he likes to just play up
2940
02:23:03.319 --> 02:23:07.079
his eccentricities. But in other ways, I think that's you know,
2941
02:23:07.120 --> 02:23:10.280
it's kind of how he was Kevin.
2942
02:23:10.319 --> 02:23:12.600
It's been great this time, flew by. I had a
2943
02:23:12.639 --> 02:23:15.399
feeling this would be a good interview and it would
2944
02:23:15.440 --> 02:23:17.639
go along if you at the time. I feel like,
2945
02:23:17.799 --> 02:23:19.799
I mean, I'm taking notes down of things that could
2946
02:23:19.799 --> 02:23:22.040
fill two more hours, questions we didn't get to, or
2947
02:23:22.079 --> 02:23:24.479
follow ups and different things that you were around at
2948
02:23:24.479 --> 02:23:25.959
the time. So hopefully we can have you back on
2949
02:23:26.000 --> 02:23:31.319
the show again sometime soon the blog again give the
2950
02:23:31.399 --> 02:23:33.159
U R L out and again I'll put this on
2951
02:23:33.200 --> 02:23:36.719
my Twitter account at the Wade Keller also, but get
2952
02:23:36.719 --> 02:23:38.280
in some more plugs for people who have enjoyed hearing
2953
02:23:38.280 --> 02:23:40.040
you here on the show and who want to follow
2954
02:23:40.040 --> 02:23:41.639
you on a more regular basis.
2955
02:23:42.319 --> 02:23:47.959
Sure appreciate it. It's Kevin x Wrestling dot sports blog dot com.
2956
02:23:48.040 --> 02:23:51.440
The blogs called the X Factor e c K. If
2957
02:23:51.440 --> 02:23:54.079
that RLS too long for you, you just google X
2958
02:23:54.120 --> 02:23:57.319
Factor Wrestling, Kevin Hack. It all pop up also with
2959
02:23:57.440 --> 02:24:00.479
throughout since I do work with MCW Marylyn Resting dot
2960
02:24:00.520 --> 02:24:04.200
Com is their website and that's pretty much all I
2961
02:24:04.239 --> 02:24:04.680
have to plug.
2962
02:24:05.280 --> 02:24:08.280
Excellent, Thank you so much, very generous with your time,
2963
02:24:08.399 --> 02:24:14.559
great stories you represent those writers those writers really well
2964
02:24:14.760 --> 02:24:17.600
on the show. I think if one, having the writers
2965
02:24:17.639 --> 02:24:19.799
on this show I think has changed has helped change
2966
02:24:19.799 --> 02:24:23.680
people's perception of them. And I think people see that
2967
02:24:24.079 --> 02:24:27.760
the problem wasn't always the writers themselves, but off in
2968
02:24:27.799 --> 02:24:29.520
the system. And I mean, obviously you're an example of
2969
02:24:29.520 --> 02:24:32.280
somebody who brought a passion for wrestling and so many
2970
02:24:32.360 --> 02:24:35.200
years following it to the job with you. So did
2971
02:24:35.200 --> 02:24:38.319
you was it in the interview with did you say
2972
02:24:38.319 --> 02:24:40.399
why you left the company or how that went about?
2973
02:24:40.879 --> 02:24:42.079
People might be wondering that.
2974
02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:45.319
Well, yeah, I just I put it out there. It's
2975
02:24:45.360 --> 02:24:47.719
no bones about it. As I got laid off, you
2976
02:24:47.760 --> 02:24:51.600
know when they were layoffs that they occurred at the
2977
02:24:51.639 --> 02:24:54.440
end of July of twenty fourteen, and you know, the
2978
02:24:54.440 --> 02:24:58.000
stock kind of took the tumble after some circumstances happened
2979
02:24:58.040 --> 02:25:01.520
and we all knew, like it was a company why
2980
02:25:01.680 --> 02:25:04.840
we knew layoffs were coming due to budget cuts. And
2981
02:25:05.479 --> 02:25:07.200
you know, I don't think I was blindsided. I had
2982
02:25:07.200 --> 02:25:09.920
a pretty good idea talking to other people in the
2983
02:25:09.959 --> 02:25:11.840
company and stuff. We sort of knew where the cuts
2984
02:25:11.840 --> 02:25:13.360
were gonna come from. And then a lot of it
2985
02:25:13.399 --> 02:25:16.280
depended on, certainly economics how much money you were making
2986
02:25:16.319 --> 02:25:19.280
and things like that. So I wasn't blindsided diet, but
2987
02:25:19.479 --> 02:25:21.000
you know, that's what it was. It was just it
2988
02:25:21.040 --> 02:25:22.959
was always caught up in the layoffs.
2989
02:25:24.399 --> 02:25:25.719
And would you have do you think you would have
2990
02:25:25.719 --> 02:25:28.239
stayed with the company for a lot longer had you
2991
02:25:28.280 --> 02:25:31.360
not been one of the layoffs. Did you what was
2992
02:25:31.399 --> 02:25:33.719
your state of mind at that time before the layoffs came.
2993
02:25:35.360 --> 02:25:36.879
You know, It's like probably what a lot of the
2994
02:25:36.920 --> 02:25:39.600
writers will tell you is that, you know, it's really
2995
02:25:39.600 --> 02:25:41.959
a love hate relationship with the job. You love the business,
2996
02:25:41.959 --> 02:25:45.280
you love the product, and it's very satisfying at times.
2997
02:25:45.639 --> 02:25:48.879
But working closely with Vince especially, it's certainly had its
2998
02:25:48.920 --> 02:25:52.600
share of challenges and headaches, whether it's you know, not
2999
02:25:52.680 --> 02:25:54.719
agreeing with the creative direction or whether it's not being
3000
02:25:54.760 --> 02:25:56.319
able to sneeze in a meeting. But I could a
3001
02:25:56.319 --> 02:25:57.920
prety look. I mean, there were a lot of things
3002
02:25:57.920 --> 02:26:01.639
to put up with. But what I would always tell
3003
02:26:01.639 --> 02:26:03.760
my wife, you know, sometimes I'd have a tough day
3004
02:26:03.760 --> 02:26:05.760
at work and I'd come home and I'd be like, man,
3005
02:26:05.799 --> 02:26:08.079
I can't this place to drive me crazy. But at
3006
02:26:08.079 --> 02:26:09.159
the end of the day, I'd be like, you know,
3007
02:26:09.200 --> 02:26:12.719
what like. It's I love what I'm doing ultimately, and
3008
02:26:14.399 --> 02:26:16.200
you know, I like them. They are paying me a
3009
02:26:16.200 --> 02:26:18.520
good salary. I can't argue with that. The money was good.
3010
02:26:18.920 --> 02:26:20.440
So I was like, you know, unless they fire me
3011
02:26:20.479 --> 02:26:22.000
and tell me to leave, I'm not going to quit.
3012
02:26:22.280 --> 02:26:24.479
And that's pretty much what it was. So I don't
3013
02:26:24.520 --> 02:26:26.600
think I would have left. They were going to have
3014
02:26:26.600 --> 02:26:28.680
to show me the door, and you know, ultimately that's
3015
02:26:28.680 --> 02:26:30.360
what happened. But I don't think I could have. I
3016
02:26:30.360 --> 02:26:33.520
could have ever quit despite the headache, to spite everything,
3017
02:26:34.680 --> 02:26:36.559
just because I was so passionate about the product.
3018
02:26:37.559 --> 02:26:40.000
Kevin, thanks again, I really appreciate.
3019
02:26:40.079 --> 02:26:40.719
Thank you, Wade.
3020
02:26:40.840 --> 02:26:44.360
Absolutely that's Kevin xx. WWE Creative you remember from twenty
3021
02:26:44.399 --> 02:26:46.760
eleven to twenty fourteen. Don't forget if you want to
3022
02:26:46.840 --> 02:26:49.280
get our free PW tour chap. That does it for
3023
02:26:49.319 --> 02:26:52.639
me for today Again, big thanks to Kevin Eck, former
3024
02:26:52.680 --> 02:26:57.440
Creative Team member and a writer, columnist, blogger. You can
3025
02:26:57.520 --> 02:27:00.879
follow or you can get the url too his site
3026
02:27:01.680 --> 02:27:04.680
at the Wade Keller on Twitter. I just put out
3027
02:27:04.680 --> 02:27:07.479
a tweet with the url for his wrestling block. I'd
3028
02:27:07.479 --> 02:27:10.239
definitely encourage you to check it out. Just go to
3029
02:27:10.360 --> 02:27:12.959
at the Wadkeller and you can find the link there,
3030
02:27:13.159 --> 02:27:14.520
or maybe you went to it when he plugged it
3031
02:27:14.559 --> 02:27:17.159
earlier on the show. That does it for me for today.
3032
02:27:17.559 --> 02:27:20.479
Thank you everybody if your continued support of PW Torch
3033
02:27:20.559 --> 02:27:24.000
VIP and making this show the success that it has
3034
02:27:24.040 --> 02:27:25.719
been the last six and a half years. Until next
3035
02:27:25.719 --> 02:27:28.760
time and actually until tomorrow when Bruce Mitchell and Travis
3036
02:27:28.760 --> 02:27:32.280
Bryant take over the show. This is Wade Keller signing off.
3037
02:27:42.040 --> 02:27:45.239
Your time is valuable. Go VIP and listen to our
3038
02:27:45.239 --> 02:27:49.680
show's commercial free a nice streamline listening experience. Pwtorch dot
3039
02:27:49.719 --> 02:27:52.840
com slash go vip for full details on a commercial
3040
02:27:52.840 --> 02:27:55.879
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3041
02:27:55.920 --> 02:27:58.840
can create custom feeds for individual shows or groups of
3042
02:27:58.879 --> 02:28:01.799
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02:28:01.920 --> 02:28:06.280
archives and access our ad free website with VPP exclusive content.
3044
02:28:06.479 --> 02:28:09.360
Pw torch dot com slash go vip. Your time is
3045
02:28:09.399 --> 02:28:12.079
valuable and that's one of the reasons we offer VIP membership.
3046
02:28:12.079 --> 02:28:16.360
Pw torch dot com slash go vip. You can participate
3047
02:28:16.399 --> 02:28:19.799
in the Wadkeller Pro Wrestling podcast by emailing your question
3048
02:28:19.959 --> 02:28:23.840
or topic to Weadkeller Podcast at gmail dot com. You
3049
02:28:23.840 --> 02:28:26.200
can also participate in the way Keller Post shows by
3050
02:28:26.239 --> 02:28:30.280
emailing Weadkellerpost Show at gmail dot com during or write
3051
02:28:30.319 --> 02:28:33.319
after Raw Dynamite or Smackdowe. Let your voice, let your
3052
02:28:33.319 --> 02:28:36.719
opinions be heard on our shows via email. Weightkeller Podcast
3053
02:28:36.840 --> 02:28:39.840
at gmail dot com for the flagship and Weadkellerposts Show
3054
02:28:39.840 --> 02:28:43.559
at gmail dot com for our post shows. It's next
3055
02:28:43.600 --> 02:28:45.840
level coverage that you come to expect from the PW
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Torch brand. No AI, no rookie perspectives, no unfounded rumors,
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no clickbait, no deceptive headlines, just just high quality writing,
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dot com. Pull yourself away from the evacuous social media
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a time, and settle in for high quality PW Torch
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branded wrestling coverage. Admit it, you love Nick Barbatty when
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he co hosts with me on the Wadekeller Post shows. Well,
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now you can listen to him every week on The
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Nickys Club, a VIP exclusive podcast here's Nick to tell
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you more.
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Hey wrestling fans, It's Nick Barbatty and I'm back with
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the Nickys Club, the place where the family of Nickys
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comes together for big laughs and Shark takes on WWE
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for WrestleMania rumors to surprise returns. I got you covered.
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The Nickys Club, where the wrestling feels like the coolest
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club in town.
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Nick Barbatty wants to be part of your pro wrestling
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life every week, so why not let him go vip
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and just about any other iOS or Android app out there.
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You can also stream directly from our ad free VIP website,
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Torch vip. Did you know that you can enjoy commercial
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patreon dot com search pw torch and subscribe to a
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VIP membership tier. You get a seven day free trial,
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by the way, to kick the tires a bit and
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see if you like the service. And then sync it
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with Spotify, and you can listen to commercial free versions
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of our free shows like the Waykeller post shows, the
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Weightkeler Podcast, Flagship, our Flashbacks, and also the pw Torch
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Daily Cast lineup again all commercial free and nice streamline
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listening experience. But with third tier membership, you can also
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unlock all the VIP podcasts, including Everything with Rich and Wade,
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every week, the Wadkeller News bulletins, post pay per view roundtables,
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and an array of other VIP exclusive podcasts with different
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hosts and different themes. Check out the lineup. Go to
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up with Spotify or stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either
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way works. Go to Patreon and start your seven day
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free trial. If you're listening to us on the Apple
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podcast app, on spot or any other app that allows
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you to rate our podcast, please take a moment to
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give us a five star rating. It really helps us
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in the algorithm and helps them know that you recommend
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us to others. Just look for a place to rate
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the show on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're
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listening to our shows, and please click that five star rating,
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and of course thank you so much for listening. A
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PWE Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous
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week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly newsletters
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dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with streaming
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and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from
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the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with wrestling's
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top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library
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dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's
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no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that
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that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now approaching
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twenty years of podcasting, Go vip and dive into our
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post pay per view round tables are covered with some
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of your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long form interviews,
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and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
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PW Torch dot com slash go vip, we have a
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streamline signup form and you can pay with PayPal or
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directly with your credit card or debit card. In one
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or two minutes from right now, you can be a
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com slash go VIP