A Lesson on Commitment with Rich Nichols

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Kim: In August 2018, legendary
women's soccer goalkeeper Hope
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Solo filed a suit against the U.
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S.
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Soccer Federation for their violation
of the Equal Pay Act and Title VII.
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What should have been a moment
of solidarity, what could have
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been a precedent setting victory,
Instead, was the beginning of
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the end to a perfect storm.
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I spoke with pioneering sports lawyer
Rich Nichols, who is the former
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executive director and counsel for
the United States Women's National
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Soccer Team, about his new book,
All Things Being Equal, and his
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role in the women's historic and
courageous quest for equal pay.
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It's a story not only about the
way women are paid in soccer, but
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a wake up call for women and girls.
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Reminding us that when it comes
to the way our work is valued
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in the world, the most powerful
leverage we have in a negotiation
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is the way we value ourselves.
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Rich: This is Rich Nichols and
this is a lesson on commitment.
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What's
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Kim: your earliest
memory of being creative?
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Rich: My earliest memory of
being creative was when I was
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probably seven or eight years old.
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I used to spend my Saturdays.
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At the public library, I would go
to the library and be there all day.
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And around eight years old, I started
writing like short stories and I
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would cramp myself up somewhere in our
tenement where we lived and I would
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just write, I just write short stories.
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Eight years old, I
started to be creative.
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I
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Kim: love it.
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I love it.
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And is that when, because teachers
recognized you as smart and you
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were teased for being smart.
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Rich: Yes.
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And yeah, about that time.
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And they would send us out there.
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If you were smart, you'd get, You'll
be seated at the front of the class.
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And for me, I was smart
and I got picked on a lot.
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I had a mouth on me.
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That was, that was my defense
mechanism and hoping that.
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What I say to you would keep
you from trying to beat me
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up at the end of the day.
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Kim: Sometimes
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Rich: it works.
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Sometimes it didn't.
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So the teacher would
let me leave to go home.
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She'd give me a five minute headstart.
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She knew these kids were
going to be chasing me home.
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Kim: Oh, no, no.
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And so you knew that the smart was
going to give you opportunities.
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Rich: I didn't know that was going
to give me opportunities or not.
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I knew that I liked being smart.
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And I like to be recognized for
being smart, but I did have one,
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one challenge where I stuttered.
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I was a stutterer and the
teachers used to make us read
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aloud in class back then.
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I'm 69 years old.
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I'll be 70 in August.
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So back then was in the late
sixties, actually, yeah, mid sixties.
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And so they would make you read
in class and she would always
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start in the back of the room.
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So I would count and you'd
have to read a paragraph.
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So I would count the paragraphs.
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To figure out which paragraph
I was going to have to read, I
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would go through it in my mind
over and over and over again.
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So by the time she got to
me, I could get it out.
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And I hated paragraphs that began with
a word that began with the letter L.
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I just couldn't get it out.
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Get it out.
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So if, if that happened to be the
case, I would mild it to myself
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before she got to me and, and I
would be sweating and she'd get to
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me and I would just hope and pray
that I could get out the first word.
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If I get out the first word,
I was good, but if not, I was
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going to have a serious problem.
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So yes, I was smart, but I
stuttered and bullied and.
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But I could run fast and, uh, which
is why I ended up making the U.
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S.
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track team several years later.
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Yeah.
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But, but it got me home safe.
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Kim: It struck me reading the
book when I was reading about your
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background as a professional athlete.
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It struck me that you couldn't
have been more prepared for the
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situation that you found yourself in.
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But we'll get more into that
for the many situations that
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they, you find yourself in.
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They're accumulative.
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Your career has been, and life, it seems
to have been, have been cumulative,
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which we have the benefit of hindsight.
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Now you seem pretty fearless.
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You talk about taking on
the soccer federation.
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You were fearless and you're,
you seem pretty fearless about
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being in the eye of a storm.
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So what, aside from running home from
the nasty kids, what prepared you?
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I
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Rich: think where I grew up and
the circumstances I grew up in,
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my parents were, and my mother
worked in a factory for 40 years.
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My dad was a, my mother was smart too,
but my dad was a really bright guy who,
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you know, black man and in the early
fifties, a veteran from world war two,
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not able to pursue his dreams and ended
up working three jobs when he was in
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the air force, he wanted to fly, but
they wouldn't send him to flight school.
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So they sent him to chef's.
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So he learned how to cook.
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So when he got out, he tried
to get a job as a cook.
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He couldn't.
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So he ended up working in the same
factory with my mother for 18 years.
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And then I'll never forget the day he
decided I'm not doing that anymore.
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He quit.
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My mother was livid,
but that's how it was.
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And he ended up spending the rest
of his life working three jobs.
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He would cook at two small
sophisticated restaurants.
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And then he was a bartender.
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And that was it.
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So he lived his life in frustration.
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So we lived in a very tense community,
so you had to be fearless to, to exist.
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But I was aware of the fact that I
could never walk around where I lived
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looking like I was afraid of anything.
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Because then, you'd be prey.
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You just couldn't allow
yourself to be prey.
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So I've always been fearless, even
though I might have been able to
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defend myself, but I was fearless.
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Kim: You had the Black Panthers
takeover at one point as well.
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Rich: That's right.
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Exactly.
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That was quite a thing.
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Yeah.
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You
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Kim: describe in the book
being shot at in the house
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and you and your mom hiding.
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Rich: Yes.
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And then the
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Kim: next morning waking up and
seeing gun holes through the
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Rich: Three, three bullet holes,
three slugs in our front door.
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Unnerving to say the least.
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That's where we lived and that situation
went on for a couple of weeks, where
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we were basically in a war zone, where
the city would come around during the
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day and put the street lights back in.
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And right after they did that, the
Panthers would go around and shoot
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the lights out so that it would be
dark at night in the neighborhood,
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so the police wouldn't come into
the neighborhood and they didn't.
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But that one night when the
police, they were chasing a car.
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And I never forget, I can still hear
it now, speeding and racing toward
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our tenement house that we lived in.
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And the car crashed through the fence,
ended up in the little backyard.
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And then the police shot at
the, at the suspect when he
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got out of the car to run.
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And that's how the bullet holes
ended up, ended up in our front door.
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But that's what I grew up in and
didn't, I didn't know any different
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really, until I went to college.
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And I went to Dartmouth, if you can
believe that, to be transported from
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New Bedford, Massachusetts, in the black
community with, you know, a whole lot of
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nothing and then dropped off at the back
of my dorm by my parents in Hanover, New
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Hampshire at Dartmouth in June of 1972
was quite a transition to say the least.
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Yeah,
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Kim: now is that where you started
to get involved in track and
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field because you were a two time?
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NCAA Division I All
American, which is amazing.
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That's right.
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Rich: That is correct.
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And
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Kim: you competed internationally
as a member of the United States
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track and field team as well.
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So when did you decide to pursue law?
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Rich: I did a externship in East Palo
Alto in the Ravenswood School District.
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And back then, Palo Alto and
East Palo Alto were separated by
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a highway, 101, they still are.
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But East Palo Alto was the
ghetto, no question about it.
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And it was a different world.
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So as a consultant in that summer,
they were asking me to help them
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resolve a problem they were having.
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And the problem was that the rich
suburbs around Palo Alto, Atherton,
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Menlo Park were annexing themselves.
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From the property tax rolls that were
being utilized to fund education in
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East Palo Alto, so they brought me
into consult to figure out how to
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resolve the problem, and I figured
out in pretty short order that an
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educator, a doctor of education was
not going to solve that problem.
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The problem is going to be solved by
a lawyer or a judge in the courts.
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And the remedy was going to be handed
down by a judge or a lawyer who knew
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nothing about the business of education.
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And if I was the superintendent
of schools, I was going to have to
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implement this ridiculous policy
put forth on my plate by someone who
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didn't know anything about education.
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So that's when I started to
think, maybe I need to be a
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lawyer instead of an educator.
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Kim: Yeah.
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And you have represented NFL Hall
of Famer wide receiver, James.
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Lofton, Olympic champions, Edwin Moses,
Marion Jones, which is incredible.
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And then the reason that we're here
today to speak about your book, but
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hope solo and the women's soccer team.
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So tell me.
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A little bit about how you found
yourself the representative
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of that team and then what the
story of the book about is about
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Rich: in December of 2012 December 13th.
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In fact, I'm a dates guy.
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I remember dates and times.
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I got a call from an associate of mine.
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His name was Andre.
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He was Hope Solo and her husband,
Jeremy Stevens, financial advisor.
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And I'd known Andre for years.
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He would come to the sports lawyers
association conference every year.
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And that's where I met him.
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So he called me and said, Hey,
Rich, I represent Hope Solo.
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And the team is in the midst of
negotiating their collective bargaining
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agreement with the U S soccer.
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Hope is the leader of the team.
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And she's very upset because their
current counsel doesn't agree with their
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salary demands and refusing to take
their salary demands back to the U.
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S.
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Soccer Federation.
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So she asked me if I knew of a lawyer
who was tough and strong and smart,
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who would be willing to work with
us to get them what they wanted.
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And I told her about you.
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And I said, okay, appreciate that.
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And would you be willing to talk to her?
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I said, yeah, sure.
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I set up the call.
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He said, well, I've got
her on the line right now.
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So you patched hope in, I had never
talked to hope before I knew she
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was, but I'd never talked to her.
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The only time I had any exposure
to hope solo was back in 2008.
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She did an interview with
Pierce Morgan on CNN.
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And after hope had basically Had a
riff with her coach, Greg Ryan, who had
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pulled her out of a, I guess it was a
World Cup game and they ended up losing
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the game four to nothing and hope made
the bold comments afterwards that if
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she had been in the game, they wouldn't
have lost the game that kind of thing.
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So I remember watching her
and I thought, wow, she's
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really smart and brave.
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A little rough around the edges,
but wow, I really respect her
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honesty and her willingness to
come out and tell it like it is.
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So when I got her on the phone, I
hear this very soft voice and I'm
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thinking, is this really Hope Solo?
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It's not the Hope Solo.
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So
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Kim: it's interviewing.
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Rich: Yeah, but it was her and she
explained the situation and she said,
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would you be willing to help us rich?
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I said, sure.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I said, what's the next step?
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00:11:19,630 --> 00:11:22,560
She said, are you willing to get on a
conference call tomorrow with the team?
240
00:11:23,020 --> 00:11:23,379
Sure.
241
00:11:23,379 --> 00:11:24,030
So I did.
242
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:26,120
They talked me through the situation.
243
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:28,679
Would you be willing to come
to Boca Raton the next day
244
00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:29,920
and meet with us in person?
245
00:11:30,330 --> 00:11:30,849
I did.
246
00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:33,730
And at the time I had
a law partner of mine.
247
00:11:34,325 --> 00:11:37,385
Who went with me, and we listened
to them, and we gave them a little
248
00:11:37,385 --> 00:11:41,585
presentation on what we thought we would
do, or they should do, and how we could
249
00:11:41,595 --> 00:11:45,195
help them, and when we left the meeting,
we were on the way to the airport, and
250
00:11:45,195 --> 00:11:48,884
the team took a vote to either replace
their current counselor or hire, at
251
00:11:48,885 --> 00:11:53,235
the time it was going to be two of us,
and they voted 9 to 9, it was a tie,
252
00:11:53,565 --> 00:11:57,955
and so Hope called me on the way to the
airport, and she says 9 to 9, I'm really
253
00:11:57,955 --> 00:12:02,095
upset, blah, we're going to take another
vote, and I'll call you back, so she
254
00:12:02,095 --> 00:12:05,175
called me back the next morning, They
had taken another vote and it was 10
255
00:12:05,175 --> 00:12:06,704
to eight to keep their current council.
256
00:12:07,055 --> 00:12:08,645
So I said, Hey, not a problem.
257
00:12:08,675 --> 00:12:09,665
I'm, I'm around.
258
00:12:09,665 --> 00:12:12,834
If you want to pass something
by me, just give me a call and
259
00:12:12,839 --> 00:12:13,704
I'm willing to talk to you.
260
00:12:13,704 --> 00:12:15,764
So she said, okay, fine.
261
00:12:16,625 --> 00:12:18,515
So that was in December of 2012.
262
00:12:19,094 --> 00:12:23,765
13 months later, in January of 2014,
I got a call from Hope and she told
263
00:12:23,765 --> 00:12:25,915
me, Hey Rich, it's been a year.
264
00:12:26,295 --> 00:12:29,745
We signed this MOU, this
memorandum of understanding, which
265
00:12:29,745 --> 00:12:33,015
was basically an agreement to
agree it really wasn't the CBA.
266
00:12:33,795 --> 00:12:34,814
But we're unhappy.
267
00:12:34,814 --> 00:12:35,055
U.
268
00:12:35,055 --> 00:12:35,155
S.
269
00:12:35,155 --> 00:12:37,825
Soccer hasn't lived up to
their obligations as usual.
270
00:12:38,235 --> 00:12:40,325
Would you be willing to meet
with us and talk with us?
271
00:12:41,485 --> 00:12:44,324
So I met with the team, talked
with them again, told them what
272
00:12:44,324 --> 00:12:45,595
I thought they needed to do.
273
00:12:46,025 --> 00:12:49,855
And I told them, I said, look, you
have to understand that your life as
274
00:12:49,855 --> 00:12:51,564
a professional athlete is very short.
275
00:12:52,085 --> 00:12:54,555
And you have to maximize
your potential to earn money.
276
00:12:55,065 --> 00:12:56,845
And the only way you're
going to do it is to be in
277
00:12:56,845 --> 00:12:58,115
control of your circumstance.
278
00:12:58,115 --> 00:13:00,105
And you just need to take control.
279
00:13:00,305 --> 00:13:00,745
Period.
280
00:13:01,224 --> 00:13:03,405
And if you bring me on,
I can help you do that.
281
00:13:03,844 --> 00:13:06,944
So they liked it and said they
were going to do it, but months
282
00:13:06,964 --> 00:13:10,084
went by, maybe six months went by
before I heard from them again.
283
00:13:10,494 --> 00:13:12,714
So I heard from them
again in June of 2014.
284
00:13:13,064 --> 00:13:13,395
Yes.
285
00:13:13,395 --> 00:13:17,335
They want to bring me on, but they,
Abby Wambach and Christie Rampone,
286
00:13:17,335 --> 00:13:19,814
who were the captains of the team at
the time, wanted to talk to me again.
287
00:13:20,254 --> 00:13:23,694
So I had a call with, actually it
ended up only being Abby Wambach
288
00:13:23,694 --> 00:13:25,305
who talked with me in February.
289
00:13:25,854 --> 00:13:28,344
We had a 30 minute conversation
and they decided, okay.
290
00:13:28,694 --> 00:13:29,805
We really like you.
291
00:13:30,225 --> 00:13:32,694
We're going to sign you
up, but they didn't.
292
00:13:32,715 --> 00:13:35,694
So now we get to September of 2014.
293
00:13:35,704 --> 00:13:35,715
Oh
294
00:13:35,855 --> 00:13:36,465
Kim: my God,
295
00:13:37,365 --> 00:13:40,795
Rich: called me and said, Would
you be willing to fly to Rochester,
296
00:13:40,825 --> 00:13:42,475
New York and meet with us again.
297
00:13:42,495 --> 00:13:43,535
So be the third time.
298
00:13:43,535 --> 00:13:47,164
And, and I'm sorry but within
the team is kind of decisive
299
00:13:47,164 --> 00:13:48,235
blah blah blah I said no problem.
300
00:13:48,435 --> 00:13:49,805
So I went to Rochester, New York.
301
00:13:50,435 --> 00:13:52,025
And I met with them
again for the third time.
302
00:13:52,395 --> 00:13:54,925
And that was the time when they
took a vote and decided, okay,
303
00:13:54,925 --> 00:13:57,535
I'm going to bring Rich on and
dismiss our previous counsel.
304
00:13:57,985 --> 00:14:01,405
What I didn't know at the time when I
met with them that day was that they
305
00:14:01,405 --> 00:14:06,425
had just met with the previous counsel
and, and Sunil Gulati, the president
306
00:14:06,445 --> 00:14:11,695
of US soccer, and the team had decided
that their counsel and Sunil over
307
00:14:11,695 --> 00:14:16,215
a 14 year period of time had become
basically too chummy and too friendly.
308
00:14:16,695 --> 00:14:19,685
To the extent that the team didn't
feel like his name was John that
309
00:14:19,685 --> 00:14:24,154
John was representing their interests
wasn't advocating for them as as
310
00:14:24,235 --> 00:14:28,415
vociferously as he could or should
those two Sunil and John had met with
311
00:14:28,415 --> 00:14:31,055
the team just before they met with me
I didn't know that that they really
312
00:14:31,055 --> 00:14:33,964
wanted me because they felt that
I would really You know, represent
313
00:14:33,964 --> 00:14:34,265
Kim: them.
314
00:14:34,555 --> 00:14:34,905
Rich: Yeah,
315
00:14:34,905 --> 00:14:37,185
Kim: I write in the book about
the gentleman's agreements
316
00:14:37,194 --> 00:14:40,925
that they had that weren't even
contractual about the fact that
317
00:14:40,925 --> 00:14:43,454
the women had no maternity leave.
318
00:14:43,495 --> 00:14:47,845
They were flying in coach to games.
319
00:14:47,865 --> 00:14:50,094
The soccer fields weren't checked.
320
00:14:50,124 --> 00:14:54,214
There was no post career benefit at all.
321
00:14:54,215 --> 00:14:55,475
There's no 401k.
322
00:14:55,745 --> 00:14:56,875
There's no nothing.
323
00:14:56,885 --> 00:15:01,295
And that the men's team
ranked 24th in the world.
324
00:15:01,940 --> 00:15:08,250
Versus the women's team ranked
number one, right, in the world,
325
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:13,410
netting 5 million in ticket sales
and the men losing 1 million and
326
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:15,610
the women aren't being paid equally.
327
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:22,669
So, you know, you, there are so many
things you took into consideration
328
00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:25,720
here and so many tactics I thought
were interesting in your book.
329
00:15:26,190 --> 00:15:29,230
But one of the first ones, and
it sounds like, again, given this
330
00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:37,380
long Trajectory to being hired was
creating unity among the team members.
331
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,260
And then teaching them to
leverage the power of no.
332
00:15:42,630 --> 00:15:44,300
Rich: Yes, absolutely.
333
00:15:44,340 --> 00:15:48,890
Kim: So I'm curious, how do you, how
were you able to build unity for them?
334
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,369
And, and when they're understandably
their income is at stake at
335
00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:57,730
the same token, it's like the
discrepancies are so egregious.
336
00:15:59,005 --> 00:16:02,385
So it seems to me like, why
wouldn't you get on board that,
337
00:16:02,465 --> 00:16:04,575
that bandwagon, but I'm not there.
338
00:16:04,605 --> 00:16:05,795
I'm not living in that moment.
339
00:16:05,835 --> 00:16:06,545
So I don't know.
340
00:16:07,165 --> 00:16:10,334
Rich: I think a few things that
happened to the team over the years.
341
00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:15,249
Since the 1999 team won the World
Cup, and that's really when the battle
342
00:16:15,260 --> 00:16:18,770
for equal pay began was back then,
and they got tremendous pushback
343
00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:20,830
from the Federation, even back then.
344
00:16:21,229 --> 00:16:25,099
But I think there was always this
mentality that if we continue
345
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:29,309
to win, and we continue to do
well, the Federation will come
346
00:16:29,310 --> 00:16:30,369
around and treat us fairly.
347
00:16:30,419 --> 00:16:31,219
They really will.
348
00:16:31,469 --> 00:16:32,589
We believe that they will.
349
00:16:32,599 --> 00:16:33,409
Why wouldn't they?
350
00:16:33,419 --> 00:16:34,619
How come they're treating us this way?
351
00:16:34,779 --> 00:16:35,559
It can't last.
352
00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:40,589
So by the time I got there in that
last meeting in September of 2014,
353
00:16:40,589 --> 00:16:44,960
before they signed me up, I told
them, I said, look, if you bring me
354
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:51,310
on, I'm only as powerful as the power
that you give me and the power that
355
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,539
you can give me that you're going to
have to give me in order for me to get
356
00:16:54,550 --> 00:16:57,060
you what you need and want is unity.
357
00:16:57,359 --> 00:17:00,790
There's 24 of you, it's
got to be 24 to zip.
358
00:17:00,969 --> 00:17:02,910
The votes always got
to be 24 to nothing.
359
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:03,839
Otherwise.
360
00:17:04,285 --> 00:17:05,155
I don't have the power.
361
00:17:05,555 --> 00:17:05,704
Kim: Yeah.
362
00:17:05,704 --> 00:17:05,944
There can't
363
00:17:05,944 --> 00:17:09,275
Rich: be any dissenters at all,
ever, in all this stuff that we're
364
00:17:09,275 --> 00:17:12,885
going to try to do, because we're
going to be pushing boulders aside.
365
00:17:13,645 --> 00:17:15,434
So there can't be a crack in the armor.
366
00:17:15,675 --> 00:17:16,614
You can't give U.
367
00:17:16,615 --> 00:17:16,745
S.
368
00:17:16,745 --> 00:17:20,385
soccer any notion that there's
weakness or vulnerability.
369
00:17:20,740 --> 00:17:23,990
And what we're trying to do and
a 23 to one vote on something
370
00:17:23,990 --> 00:17:25,900
is exactly that vulnerability.
371
00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:26,690
No unity.
372
00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:28,600
Unity is power.
373
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:30,740
Power will get you leverage.
374
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:33,090
Leverage will help us get what we want.
375
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:34,120
Period.
376
00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:35,030
It's just that simple.
377
00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:36,389
So they understood that.
378
00:17:36,670 --> 00:17:37,739
But it took the first year.
379
00:17:37,769 --> 00:17:39,559
It took the year 2015.
380
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:45,730
Certainly the first six months of 2015
for them to understand the power of no.
381
00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:50,500
When I took over in January
2015, I began saying no to the
382
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:52,410
Federation almost immediately.
383
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:58,630
The first sponsorship deal they
came to us with was the FIFA
384
00:17:58,630 --> 00:18:00,710
2016 video game, EA Sports.
385
00:18:01,264 --> 00:18:05,105
And the general counsel said, Hey,
Rich, this is a great opportunity.
386
00:18:05,544 --> 00:18:09,744
EA Sports wants to feature
the women's team in FIFA 2016.
387
00:18:09,925 --> 00:18:13,475
It's going to be a renewal
of the men's FIFA 2012 game.
388
00:18:14,065 --> 00:18:15,124
I said, Hey, it sounds great.
389
00:18:15,744 --> 00:18:17,375
How much are they going to pay the team?
390
00:18:17,935 --> 00:18:18,945
Oh, nothing.
391
00:18:19,024 --> 00:18:19,675
Kim: Steering!
392
00:18:19,804 --> 00:18:20,364
Zero.
393
00:18:20,364 --> 00:18:24,135
I was, I, my head nearly exploded
when I read that in the book.
394
00:18:24,145 --> 00:18:26,084
I was like, what are you talking about?
395
00:18:26,094 --> 00:18:28,405
That's the license of their image.
396
00:18:28,445 --> 00:18:32,964
And if, as a producer in entertainment,
that's a whole, that's a whole
397
00:18:32,995 --> 00:18:34,734
business model in and of itself.
398
00:18:34,745 --> 00:18:36,334
Forget the sports, right?
399
00:18:36,344 --> 00:18:39,304
The licensing of the image, but
that they would think they could
400
00:18:39,304 --> 00:18:41,405
get away with paying nothing.
401
00:18:41,425 --> 00:18:44,705
Rich: I said to her, her name was Lisa
Levine, general counsel, Lisa, nothing?
402
00:18:44,705 --> 00:18:44,929
Blink.
403
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:46,000
What are you talking about?
404
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,420
Oh, this is a great opportunity.
405
00:18:49,020 --> 00:18:51,880
It's a great awareness and
marketing opportunity for the team.
406
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:57,070
And I said a great aware, this team,
they're perennial Olympic champions.
407
00:18:57,435 --> 00:18:59,835
They've won, at the time,
it was two World Cups.
408
00:18:59,925 --> 00:19:02,645
They don't need any
awareness or visibility.
409
00:19:03,034 --> 00:19:03,995
They already are.
410
00:19:04,175 --> 00:19:06,065
It's the men's team that
needs that kind of help.
411
00:19:06,615 --> 00:19:07,365
We don't need that.
412
00:19:07,495 --> 00:19:08,735
And we're not doing it for nothing.
413
00:19:09,315 --> 00:19:09,884
You have to.
414
00:19:10,015 --> 00:19:11,345
No, we don't have to do anything.
415
00:19:12,225 --> 00:19:13,235
We don't have to do anything.
416
00:19:13,724 --> 00:19:14,815
And we're not doing it for nothing.
417
00:19:15,875 --> 00:19:18,165
Oh, but we've already
negotiated the deal.
418
00:19:18,175 --> 00:19:19,405
We're fired down the line.
419
00:19:19,405 --> 00:19:21,215
The storyboards are already marked up.
420
00:19:21,635 --> 00:19:23,975
Uh, one of the women on the
team are going to be featured
421
00:19:23,975 --> 00:19:25,105
on the cover of the game.
422
00:19:25,105 --> 00:19:26,064
I said, I don't care.
423
00:19:26,614 --> 00:19:27,394
We're not doing it for nothing.
424
00:19:29,094 --> 00:19:30,205
I'll take it back to the team.
425
00:19:30,205 --> 00:19:32,824
I have to and see what they say, but I'm
telling you what they're going to say.
426
00:19:32,945 --> 00:19:34,034
They're not doing it for nothing.
427
00:19:34,475 --> 00:19:35,304
And that's what the team said.
428
00:19:35,304 --> 00:19:36,375
We're not doing it for nothing.
429
00:19:36,765 --> 00:19:41,584
So when the federation realized
that these women were not going
430
00:19:41,584 --> 00:19:46,364
to show up, but the federation
had already contractually agreed
431
00:19:46,814 --> 00:19:49,695
with EA sports that the women
would be available to participate.
432
00:19:50,335 --> 00:19:52,024
They realized federation
realized they were going to
433
00:19:52,024 --> 00:19:52,875
have to come up with something.
434
00:19:53,324 --> 00:19:56,985
So Lisa Levine called me back
one day and she said, rich.
435
00:19:57,635 --> 00:19:58,485
Just be straight with you.
436
00:19:58,495 --> 00:19:59,975
You've already made the commitments.
437
00:20:00,689 --> 00:20:04,179
For the women to participate in
this game, we're kind of stuck.
438
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:06,320
So, I'm basically Too bad.
439
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:07,909
Kim: Too bad for you.
440
00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:08,379
Yeah.
441
00:20:08,919 --> 00:20:09,259
Yeah, yeah.
442
00:20:09,469 --> 00:20:10,209
Too bad you're stuck.
443
00:20:10,350 --> 00:20:10,909
Anyway, sorry.
444
00:20:11,709 --> 00:20:11,850
We're
445
00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:13,830
Rich: basically, we're all family here.
446
00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:15,019
The whole family discussion.
447
00:20:15,569 --> 00:20:18,119
So, we can offer you 20, 000.
448
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,784
We can offer the team 20, 000.
449
00:20:20,105 --> 00:20:21,505
One time payment.
450
00:20:22,315 --> 00:20:22,614
Total.
451
00:20:23,014 --> 00:20:24,165
Kim: Total for 24 women.
452
00:20:24,304 --> 00:20:24,654
Rich: Yeah.
453
00:20:24,904 --> 00:20:27,045
The men are only
getting 120, 000 a year.
454
00:20:27,045 --> 00:20:30,624
It's a renewal of their deal before
where they got 120, 000 a year.
455
00:20:30,804 --> 00:20:33,245
It's a good faith gesture
on the Federation's part.
456
00:20:33,554 --> 00:20:35,205
We understand where you're coming from.
457
00:20:35,264 --> 00:20:35,694
Blah, blah, blah.
458
00:20:36,204 --> 00:20:37,534
So I said, let me take
it back to the team.
459
00:20:37,534 --> 00:20:40,314
So I took it back to the team
and I said, look, let's do it.
460
00:20:40,585 --> 00:20:45,115
They understand now that, or I
thought they did, that we're not
461
00:20:45,115 --> 00:20:47,685
taking no money to do anything.
462
00:20:48,165 --> 00:20:51,905
So this would be 20, 000 more than
we had, but they got the message.
463
00:20:52,044 --> 00:20:52,945
They've gotten the message.
464
00:20:52,945 --> 00:20:53,775
So the team agreed.
465
00:20:53,885 --> 00:21:00,085
So between January of 2015 and April
of 2015, the Federation presented three
466
00:21:00,085 --> 00:21:05,185
or four more deals like that to us,
which paid little to no money at all.
467
00:21:05,555 --> 00:21:06,845
And we rejected them all.
468
00:21:07,195 --> 00:21:09,364
And that kind of set the stage.
469
00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:15,070
For going to the World Cup, winning
the World Cup, and then having real
470
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,169
leverage to get what the women wanted.
471
00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:22,290
The first opportunity to do that was
I wrote about it in the book when
472
00:21:22,370 --> 00:21:26,680
the team won the World Cup and two
captains of the team, Christy Rampolla
473
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,890
and Abby Wambach, asked, literally
asked the president of the federation
474
00:21:30,890 --> 00:21:32,660
for the week, the next weekend off.
475
00:21:32,669 --> 00:21:33,019
Off,
476
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:33,900
Kim: yeah.
477
00:21:34,299 --> 00:21:37,230
Rich: And it was the first weekend
after the World Cup, after a 30
478
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:39,530
day grueling World Cup competition.
479
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:43,320
The team was, they were mentally
and physically fatigued.
480
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,630
They just wanted a weekend off and they
were told pretty point blank, no, we've
481
00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:52,939
already marketed the team for the NWSL
games this weekend, they're all sold out
482
00:21:52,940 --> 00:21:56,920
based upon the fact that national team
world cup champion players are going
483
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,649
to play and no, you're going to play.
484
00:21:59,089 --> 00:22:01,839
So they tried, they went back to
him the next day and he basically
485
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,620
said no and then I'm going to have
a call with the entire team and
486
00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:06,870
make sure you all understand you're
all going to play this weekend.
487
00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:09,750
So that's when they finally
called me and said, this is what's
488
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:11,460
transpired over the last two days.
489
00:22:11,910 --> 00:22:12,730
I said, well, a couple of things.
490
00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:13,070
One.
491
00:22:13,295 --> 00:22:16,955
You're not having any call with the
Federation tomorrow night, which
492
00:22:16,955 --> 00:22:18,035
was going to be a Wednesday night.
493
00:22:18,425 --> 00:22:19,395
I'll have the call.
494
00:22:19,615 --> 00:22:21,555
And if you don't want to
play this weekend, you're
495
00:22:21,555 --> 00:22:22,304
not playing this weekend.
496
00:22:23,295 --> 00:22:23,605
Period.
497
00:22:23,855 --> 00:22:24,375
End of story.
498
00:22:24,815 --> 00:22:27,495
Kim: What's so interesting, again,
one of those other tactics, you
499
00:22:27,495 --> 00:22:29,084
talk about words being weapons.
500
00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:34,100
No, again, now that started young
for you, but law, the use of the law.
501
00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:38,570
And so what struck me is, again,
these off the record gentleman's
502
00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:43,970
agreements, the fact that they, from
2012 onward, did not have a formal
503
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,100
contract that they're operating on
a memorandum that doesn't include,
504
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:55,159
again, any kind of licensing terms,
any kind of benefits, basic benefits.
505
00:22:55,870 --> 00:22:59,229
And then the bringing in.
506
00:22:59,585 --> 00:23:01,625
the Equal Pay Act.
507
00:23:02,155 --> 00:23:05,895
You made a big national
morning show announcement.
508
00:23:06,105 --> 00:23:12,125
So tell me a little bit about the
choice to go to that legislation.
509
00:23:12,514 --> 00:23:15,914
Rich: So we pushed back in, in
July after the World Cup and
510
00:23:16,295 --> 00:23:19,235
basically told the Federation,
we're not playing this weekend.
511
00:23:19,634 --> 00:23:20,969
And they heard us.
512
00:23:21,249 --> 00:23:25,659
And we negotiated a compromise where the
players would make personal appearances
513
00:23:25,659 --> 00:23:29,850
at those NWSL games that weekend after
the World Cup final, but they wouldn't
514
00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:32,280
play in exchange for some money.
515
00:23:32,489 --> 00:23:33,590
So we got some money.
516
00:23:33,999 --> 00:23:36,939
They only had to make appearances
and didn't have to play.
517
00:23:36,939 --> 00:23:38,259
That's what they wanted to do.
518
00:23:38,529 --> 00:23:42,669
So with that, we had
a victory with that.
519
00:23:42,850 --> 00:23:46,860
That was the first time we used the
World Cup championship leverage.
520
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:49,520
to get what the players wanted.
521
00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:55,070
So from that point forward, I knew that
we had the leverage required to pursue
522
00:23:55,070 --> 00:24:00,280
this equal pay, uh, opportunity in the
next collective bargaining negotiation.
523
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,449
Kim: You call it a nuclear bomb too.
524
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:05,610
You call it and strategically,
it was a nuclear bomb for you.
525
00:24:05,729 --> 00:24:06,500
Rich: Yeah, it was.
526
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:10,010
It was because I don't think they
were expecting it and they weren't
527
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:15,195
expecting it To come from a team that
now had some leverage to really push
528
00:24:15,195 --> 00:24:16,615
the issue, to get what they want.
529
00:24:17,054 --> 00:24:19,605
So that's what we did
in January of 2016.
530
00:24:19,985 --> 00:24:23,245
What I did was in August, a month
after the world cup victory, a month
531
00:24:23,245 --> 00:24:28,714
after we pushed back and didn't play
those NWSL games, I met with, uh, Sunil
532
00:24:28,715 --> 00:24:29,975
Gulati, the president of the federation.
533
00:24:29,975 --> 00:24:33,555
I said, Hey, Sunil, look, that
MOU has no marketing provisions.
534
00:24:33,555 --> 00:24:35,375
There's no group licensing provisions.
535
00:24:35,595 --> 00:24:37,425
There are no provisions
in it that allow.
536
00:24:37,715 --> 00:24:41,675
Individual players to market themselves
and their brand to make money off of
537
00:24:41,675 --> 00:24:45,095
their World Cup victory and probably
the next year's Olympic victory.
538
00:24:45,375 --> 00:24:49,455
Why don't we negotiate the new
collective bargaining agreement?
539
00:24:49,464 --> 00:24:54,774
Start doing it now so that it can be
finished before the Olympics in 2016
540
00:24:55,025 --> 00:24:58,195
so the team and the women can have
the benefit of being able to leverage
541
00:24:58,195 --> 00:25:01,275
their celebrity and their victories
into competent money for them.
542
00:25:01,665 --> 00:25:03,705
So he agreed to that, which
I was surprised about.
543
00:25:03,705 --> 00:25:05,284
This is August of 2015.
544
00:25:05,785 --> 00:25:06,415
He agreed to it.
545
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,830
But then they dragged their feet and
they didn't have the preliminary first
546
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:14,810
meeting with us about CBA negotiations
until November 30th of 2015.
547
00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:16,250
So we had that initial meeting.
548
00:25:16,439 --> 00:25:18,700
We were very transparent about
what we were going to ask for.
549
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,230
Then we spent the month of December, the
team, putting together the collective
550
00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:25,300
bargaining agreement proposal.
551
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,110
And then we presented it to the
Federation in January, early January of
552
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:32,659
2016 and started physical negotiations.
553
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:36,150
For that deal, which was for equal
pay and a bunch of other things,
554
00:25:36,449 --> 00:25:43,070
group licensing, health benefits,
maternity leave, 401k, catastrophic
555
00:25:43,070 --> 00:25:45,709
insurance, all kinds of things
that they should have had already.
556
00:25:46,179 --> 00:25:49,440
So that that's how we got to
the negotiation point of a CBA
557
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,879
proposal that had equal pay as
the driving force of the proposal.
558
00:25:53,415 --> 00:25:56,625
And the lesson here is commitment.
559
00:25:58,355 --> 00:26:00,314
Be committed.
560
00:26:00,895 --> 00:26:00,965
100%.
561
00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:02,885
Commitment is, it's binary.
562
00:26:03,045 --> 00:26:04,375
You're either committed or you're not.
563
00:26:04,695 --> 00:26:08,415
You can't be 80 percent committed,
60 percent committed, and expect to
564
00:26:08,415 --> 00:26:10,064
achieve your objectives and goals.
565
00:26:10,105 --> 00:26:11,525
You got to be 100 percent committed.
566
00:26:12,275 --> 00:26:15,534
And this team, US National
Women's Soccer Team, at the
567
00:26:15,545 --> 00:26:19,105
beginning of the equal pay push,
they were 100 percent committed.
568
00:26:19,975 --> 00:26:21,195
But they lost two things.
569
00:26:21,195 --> 00:26:22,115
They lost unity.
570
00:26:23,605 --> 00:26:27,114
That means they lost leverage, and
then they lost their commitment,
571
00:26:27,295 --> 00:26:30,675
their 100 percent commitment to equal
pay, and they did not get equal pay.
572
00:26:31,524 --> 00:26:34,965
That system they agreed to, the pay
to play system, it's not equal pay.
573
00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:38,585
It's the same compensation
system that's paying the men's
574
00:26:38,585 --> 00:26:40,134
team, but it's not equal pay.
575
00:26:40,364 --> 00:26:43,555
And as always, the devil is in the
details, especially with the U.
576
00:26:43,625 --> 00:26:43,655
S.
577
00:26:43,655 --> 00:26:44,485
Soccer Federation.
578
00:26:45,005 --> 00:26:46,935
So, therefore, you've got
to maintain your commitment.
579
00:26:47,175 --> 00:26:51,860
This team was in the red zone, 20 yards
from scoring the equal pay touchdown,
580
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:53,810
but they lost their commitment.
581
00:26:54,290 --> 00:26:55,150
And I understand it.
582
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:58,090
I totally understand
the human condition.
583
00:26:58,749 --> 00:27:01,540
Survival is a very strong incentive.
584
00:27:03,169 --> 00:27:04,040
They chose survival.
585
00:27:04,249 --> 00:27:08,440
I get it, but you gotta be
a hundred percent committed.
586
00:27:08,980 --> 00:27:09,720
That's the lesson.
587
00:27:10,195 --> 00:27:14,655
If you commit, maintain the commitment,
it's going to be stormy, it's going
588
00:27:14,655 --> 00:27:18,305
to be hard, it's going to be rocky,
you're going to feel pain, you're
589
00:27:18,305 --> 00:27:22,764
going to get slimed, you're going
to get all this, but if you maintain
590
00:27:22,764 --> 00:27:24,865
your commitment, you're going to
get to the other end and you're
591
00:27:24,865 --> 00:27:28,435
going to get the gold ring, period.
592
00:27:34,734 --> 00:27:38,025
Kim: What's your experience in the
way that men and women use power?
593
00:27:38,425 --> 00:27:41,045
Rich: A lot of women are
afraid to exercise their power.
594
00:27:41,485 --> 00:27:44,295
As the team we were finalizing
the collective bargaining
595
00:27:44,705 --> 00:27:46,675
proposal with Equal Pay.
596
00:27:47,139 --> 00:27:49,850
And I had the numbers in there
with regard to what equal pay would
597
00:27:49,860 --> 00:27:53,870
be, one of the players said, Rich,
are we asking for too much money?
598
00:27:54,370 --> 00:27:58,369
And I thought about that and I thought,
wow, there's still this prevailing
599
00:27:58,379 --> 00:28:04,060
view that we don't deserve what we
should have in terms of compensation.
600
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:06,540
And we're asking for it.
601
00:28:06,859 --> 00:28:08,670
I thought, we're not
asking for anything.
602
00:28:09,090 --> 00:28:09,990
We're demanding it.
603
00:28:11,065 --> 00:28:14,505
Because you deserve it and
you should get this money.
604
00:28:14,975 --> 00:28:19,835
So there's just, I don't know why, but
I've been drawn to strong women like
605
00:28:20,735 --> 00:28:26,804
Marion Jones and Hope Solo and others
who are in your face demanding it.
606
00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:27,795
We want it.
607
00:28:28,345 --> 00:28:29,055
We're going to get it.
608
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:30,270
We deserve it.
609
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:31,240
It's mine.
610
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:32,340
I'm taking it.
611
00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:37,040
And for whatever reason, some
women are afraid to do that.
612
00:28:37,340 --> 00:28:39,409
Kim: I think it comes
with the label, right?
613
00:28:39,409 --> 00:28:42,459
It comes, you talk about an
aggressive negotiation style, but
614
00:28:42,489 --> 00:28:47,170
if women are labeled aggressive,
then it's the kiss of death.
615
00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:50,130
And we could be speaking
quietly and firmly.
616
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:50,680
Rich: Yes.
617
00:28:51,379 --> 00:28:52,660
Kim: And it's the kiss of death.
618
00:28:52,879 --> 00:28:53,800
Rich: Yeah, no, you're right.
619
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,910
You're right about that.
620
00:28:54,980 --> 00:28:55,889
And men know that.
621
00:28:56,450 --> 00:29:00,919
And what really bothered me
about this negotiation is.
622
00:29:01,804 --> 00:29:04,534
That the Federation had three women
on the other side of the table.
623
00:29:04,574 --> 00:29:06,355
Kim: And that was disgusting to me.
624
00:29:07,235 --> 00:29:10,595
Rich: And they were the primary
mouthpieces during the negotiations.
625
00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:14,920
Against the women's team for
equal pay, it blew my mind.
626
00:29:14,930 --> 00:29:19,149
Donna Shalala, Catherine Rumler,
and the general counsel Lisa Levine.
627
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:22,470
To this day, I can't,
I don't understand it.
628
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:25,330
Kim: The story, I was like, how
could you be a woman on the other,
629
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,259
but I understand, I do understand
how they do it because there are
630
00:29:29,270 --> 00:29:32,960
women so afraid and entrenched in
the system and afraid to speak out.
631
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,974
The point of our podcast is to
encourage women to speak out.
632
00:29:36,125 --> 00:29:37,395
to use their voices.
633
00:29:38,614 --> 00:29:42,254
I think what's interesting
though is, again, you're a black
634
00:29:42,254 --> 00:29:48,145
man, you have a Native American
mom, so you identify as black.
635
00:29:48,215 --> 00:29:48,764
Is that correct?
636
00:29:48,845 --> 00:29:49,104
Yeah.
637
00:29:49,104 --> 00:29:49,514
In America,
638
00:29:49,715 --> 00:29:51,925
Rich: if you're, in America, if
your dad's black, you're black.
639
00:29:51,925 --> 00:29:53,185
I've always identified as black.
640
00:29:53,254 --> 00:29:53,794
Kim: Yeah.
641
00:29:53,804 --> 00:29:57,830
So, um, I think you talked about, even
when you were making the announcements
642
00:29:57,830 --> 00:30:01,900
for Equal Pay, about the optics,
not wanting the optics of being
643
00:30:01,950 --> 00:30:04,060
a black lawyer with white women.
644
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,379
And that was really confusing to
me, because I was, I'm so glad
645
00:30:07,379 --> 00:30:13,070
you were in the 60 Minutes piece,
but I am, I think that's powerful.
646
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:15,980
Personally, I feel that's
a powerful statement.
647
00:30:16,535 --> 00:30:20,575
Rich: So that's a reality that, that
black lawyers, black professionals
648
00:30:21,555 --> 00:30:23,045
have to accept and live with.
649
00:30:23,085 --> 00:30:30,205
It's just a reality for us that
whatever we do is summarily a discount.
650
00:30:30,725 --> 00:30:36,564
And what I worried about with that was
I didn't want, because it was a bold
651
00:30:36,565 --> 00:30:39,340
move, bold move, Serious nuclear bomb.
652
00:30:39,620 --> 00:30:45,050
You've got five white, high
profile female players on
653
00:30:45,050 --> 00:30:46,870
the World Cup champion U.
654
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:47,020
S.
655
00:30:47,030 --> 00:30:52,689
women's national soccer team suing their
employer for equal pay in violation
656
00:30:52,690 --> 00:30:54,300
of Title VII wage discrimination.
657
00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:01,960
At the EEOC that is never happened
before groundbreaking revolutionary
658
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,369
is setting a stage for other women
in the workplace to maybe do the
659
00:31:05,369 --> 00:31:08,720
same thing to have the courage and
the bravery to do the same thing.
660
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:13,469
And I worried that if it was me.
661
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,940
Sitting on the set with
them on the today show.
662
00:31:17,895 --> 00:31:24,005
A black lawyer putting forth
this bold move that it would be
663
00:31:24,015 --> 00:31:30,114
discounted as something that I was
doing for my benefit and not for
664
00:31:30,115 --> 00:31:33,745
the benefit of the team, and it
wouldn't have been taken seriously.
665
00:31:34,694 --> 00:31:36,745
And I sit here convinced today
that it wouldn't have been.
666
00:31:36,745 --> 00:31:39,314
It would have been
discounted and dismissed.
667
00:31:39,910 --> 00:31:40,390
But if Jeff,
668
00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:43,860
Kim: yeah, it just makes
perfect sense to me.
669
00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:48,289
See it for me, it makes perfect sense
that you would understand it and that
670
00:31:48,289 --> 00:31:54,100
you would actually hear them in a way
that again, they had not been heard.
671
00:31:55,185 --> 00:31:55,725
Rich: Exactly.
672
00:31:55,925 --> 00:31:58,545
And to a certain extent, even
during the across the table
673
00:31:58,545 --> 00:32:03,115
negotiations, I felt that I wasn't
necessarily being taken seriously.
674
00:32:03,515 --> 00:32:07,044
And one of the lawyers on the
other side consistently rolled
675
00:32:07,045 --> 00:32:08,735
his eyes at me whenever I talked.
676
00:32:09,045 --> 00:32:12,625
And he did it to me three
times in the first session.
677
00:32:13,234 --> 00:32:15,995
The fourth time I leaned across
the table, I said, man, if you roll
678
00:32:15,995 --> 00:32:19,205
your eyes at me again, it'd be the
last time you roll your eyes at me.
679
00:32:20,085 --> 00:32:21,665
But it was a sign of disrespect.
680
00:32:21,685 --> 00:32:21,908
It
681
00:32:21,908 --> 00:32:22,580
Kim: was a sign
682
00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:24,145
Rich: of, Oh, what
are you talking about?
683
00:32:24,145 --> 00:32:25,035
You're just a black lawyer.
684
00:32:25,035 --> 00:32:25,945
You don't know what
you're talking about.
685
00:32:25,945 --> 00:32:26,405
Blah, blah, blah.
686
00:32:26,605 --> 00:32:27,755
That's how I interpreted it.
687
00:32:27,865 --> 00:32:28,785
And that's how he meant it.
688
00:32:28,935 --> 00:32:30,474
There's no question in my mind about it.
689
00:32:30,475 --> 00:32:31,785
You have to be cognizant of that.
690
00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:34,004
You have to take action based on that.
691
00:32:34,055 --> 00:32:35,414
It can't be about you.
692
00:32:36,045 --> 00:32:37,545
And that's why it's funny.
693
00:32:37,545 --> 00:32:39,934
I didn't tell Jeff, Jeffrey Kessler
that he was going to sit on the
694
00:32:39,934 --> 00:32:42,305
set until 20 minutes before.
695
00:32:42,905 --> 00:32:43,835
And he's like, why not you?
696
00:32:43,835 --> 00:32:44,525
I said, trust me.
697
00:32:45,835 --> 00:32:46,795
Just go out there with him.
698
00:32:46,795 --> 00:32:47,955
One, he's Jeffrey Kessler.
699
00:32:47,955 --> 00:32:50,335
He's the preeminent sports
lawyer in the world.
700
00:32:50,345 --> 00:32:51,895
Tom Brady's lawyer, home nine yards.
701
00:32:52,545 --> 00:32:54,804
He's going to be taken very seriously.
702
00:32:55,535 --> 00:32:56,665
And he was, it was.
703
00:32:56,895 --> 00:32:59,725
Kim: You talked about the eye of
the storm and some of the things
704
00:32:59,725 --> 00:33:02,534
that you mentioned, like that it
was the perfect storm, that so
705
00:33:02,535 --> 00:33:03,815
many things were the perfect storm.
706
00:33:03,815 --> 00:33:07,625
And we're seeing it again
right now with the WNBA.
707
00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:11,200
Stuff as well playing out intuition
is something you mentioned
708
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,920
desire something you mentioned.
709
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,110
Those seem like very
feminine leadership.
710
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,919
And I'm curious, we talked about power.
711
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,840
Do you think women lead differently?
712
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:23,580
And if so, how?
713
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:25,810
Rich: Yeah, I think women
do lead differently.
714
00:33:25,810 --> 00:33:29,750
And when they decide to take the
lead, they're very good at it.
715
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:32,060
Very good at it.
716
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,000
In fact, I prefer working with women
because women are very directed.
717
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,190
They know what their objective is.
718
00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:40,325
Ego doesn't get in the way men.
719
00:33:40,425 --> 00:33:43,595
Ego is always the first
thing and women execute.
720
00:33:44,215 --> 00:33:45,005
They get it done.
721
00:33:45,195 --> 00:33:48,184
That's how my mother was, you
know, she's passively aggressive.
722
00:33:48,485 --> 00:33:51,385
You know, we had nothing but she
made sure that what we did have,
723
00:33:51,435 --> 00:33:56,554
we had, and we had it all the time,
notwithstanding the, the obstacles.
724
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:59,630
That way in her way, she
executed, she got it done.
725
00:33:59,630 --> 00:34:02,910
I didn't realize that I was absorbing
that at the time, but as I look back
726
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:07,979
on it, that's what I saw in my mom who
had little to nothing, but herself,
727
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,539
her intuition, her strength, her
ability to make decisions and her
728
00:34:11,539 --> 00:34:12,790
ability to control the household.
729
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:14,519
My mother controlled our household.
730
00:34:14,590 --> 00:34:19,870
So once a woman decides that she's
going to lead beware, because
731
00:34:20,460 --> 00:34:23,780
she's not given up and men don't
know how to deal with that.
732
00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:26,930
Kim: The pay checks, fairness act.
733
00:34:27,805 --> 00:34:33,885
Which expands on provisions in the
Equal Pay Act, has, and that makes
734
00:34:33,885 --> 00:34:37,445
it illegal for employers to make
men and women unequal ages for
735
00:34:37,445 --> 00:34:42,954
performing the same work, has been
introduced 13 times, 13 times over two
736
00:34:42,954 --> 00:34:45,725
decades, and it still has not passed.
737
00:34:46,374 --> 00:34:50,285
So what do you think we need to do
if we can make this whole lesson
738
00:34:50,295 --> 00:34:50,855
that you've learned actionable?
739
00:34:51,545 --> 00:34:54,445
What do we think we need
to do to tip the balance?
740
00:34:54,445 --> 00:34:54,465
You
741
00:34:55,065 --> 00:34:57,735
Rich: needed Hillary Clinton to be
the President of the United States.
742
00:34:58,165 --> 00:35:01,225
That's what it boils down to,
and that's why she's not the
743
00:35:01,225 --> 00:35:05,515
president of the United States,
because the men, the Republicans,
744
00:35:05,515 --> 00:35:08,915
pulled out all stops to make sure
that she didn't assume that role.
745
00:35:09,305 --> 00:35:11,745
And unfortunately, women
didn't vote for her either.
746
00:35:11,825 --> 00:35:15,875
53 percent of the suburban
women voted for Donald Trump.
747
00:35:16,184 --> 00:35:17,515
Kim: They abandoned ship.
748
00:35:17,835 --> 00:35:18,195
Yeah.
749
00:35:18,725 --> 00:35:23,025
Rich: And we're still looking at
that probability today as we speak.
750
00:35:23,085 --> 00:35:23,405
Kim: Oh yeah.
751
00:35:23,405 --> 00:35:24,455
We're seeing it with abortion.
752
00:35:24,455 --> 00:35:28,230
We're seeing it in so many areas
that women, again, this It's fear,
753
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:36,129
this pervasive cultural discrediting
of our value, our belief that
754
00:35:36,129 --> 00:35:37,669
we don't deserve to be paid.
755
00:35:37,789 --> 00:35:39,630
We're winning the world cup.
756
00:35:39,810 --> 00:35:42,209
We're winning the Olympics
and we still don't.
757
00:35:42,289 --> 00:35:43,240
Is it too much?
758
00:35:43,249 --> 00:35:44,630
Am I being paid too much?
759
00:35:44,689 --> 00:35:45,369
Really?
760
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,039
Rich: I think men single out
women like Hope Solo and others
761
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:51,389
who are strong and forceful and
in your face and eliminate them.
762
00:35:52,359 --> 00:35:54,540
And that's the message that
they're sending to the rest.
763
00:35:54,875 --> 00:35:56,135
Of the world.
764
00:35:56,425 --> 00:35:59,745
If you get out there and you put
your career and your life on the
765
00:35:59,745 --> 00:36:00,885
line, we're going to take it.
766
00:36:01,685 --> 00:36:02,205
We're going to take it.
767
00:36:02,505 --> 00:36:03,415
That's what's going to happen to you.
768
00:36:03,595 --> 00:36:04,934
And that's why they
determined, that's why the U.
769
00:36:04,934 --> 00:36:04,974
S.
770
00:36:04,974 --> 00:36:07,614
Soccer Federation fired
Hope in August of 2016.
771
00:36:08,815 --> 00:36:11,684
They claimed it was because
she called the Swedes cowards.
772
00:36:11,914 --> 00:36:12,774
That wasn't the case.
773
00:36:13,254 --> 00:36:14,255
How do I know it wasn't the case?
774
00:36:14,264 --> 00:36:20,745
Because the coach, Jill Ellis, and, and
Sunil Gulati flew back from Rio with
775
00:36:20,745 --> 00:36:22,095
Hope and told her not to worry about it.
776
00:36:22,525 --> 00:36:25,615
That was like on the
13th or 14th of August.
777
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:29,440
And then on August 24th, she's
fired, which just so happened that
778
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,570
it was right about that time when
60 Minutes knocked on their door, U.
779
00:36:33,570 --> 00:36:33,700
S.
780
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:37,760
Soccer, and they realized that, wow,
60 Minutes is doing an investigation.
781
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,009
So now we have to cut off the head of
the leader of the, we have to cut off
782
00:36:42,009 --> 00:36:46,400
the head of the snake of this, the
person who's the most forceful on the U.
783
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:46,530
S.
784
00:36:46,530 --> 00:36:49,260
women's soccer team for equal
pay, and that's Hope Solo.
785
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:53,680
And if we fire Hope Solo, the
greatest of all time goalkeeper,
786
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,489
the reason why we've got World
Cup and Olympic victories.
787
00:36:57,870 --> 00:37:00,380
We'll send a message to the
rest of the team that if she
788
00:37:00,380 --> 00:37:02,510
can be fired, so can you.
789
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,960
So you better get off
of this equal pay trip.
790
00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:06,530
As soon as you possibly can,
791
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:07,390
Kim: and that's what happened.
792
00:37:07,390 --> 00:37:10,730
It seems so obvious to me, you're
doing the same job, of course
793
00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:11,830
you should get paid the same.
794
00:37:12,190 --> 00:37:16,080
And again, the dollars, there
are significant dollars, it's
795
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,570
not like they would be broke
if they gave somebody a raise.
796
00:37:19,849 --> 00:37:21,989
So what do you think it's about?
797
00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:26,540
Rich: It's about, I heard them say
it, the men that run the federation
798
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:32,985
do not believe that the level of
competition In the women's league
799
00:37:34,415 --> 00:37:39,725
and women's soccer is the same as
the level of competition for the men.
800
00:37:40,235 --> 00:37:47,275
So they believe that if you are
competing in an inferior environment,
801
00:37:47,675 --> 00:37:51,395
an environment that's inferior to
the men's competitive environment.
802
00:37:51,655 --> 00:37:54,284
You don't deserve to be
paid what the men get paid.
803
00:37:54,565 --> 00:37:56,205
That's what they said.
804
00:37:56,574 --> 00:37:59,705
They had the temerity to
actually vocalize that.
805
00:38:00,944 --> 00:38:02,124
So how do I interpret that?
806
00:38:02,575 --> 00:38:05,135
Inherently, they believe
that women are inferior.
807
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:09,030
Kim: Yes, and that actually makes
total sense when you say that
808
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:15,479
because inferior playing conditions,
inferior pay, just as a reflection
809
00:38:15,479 --> 00:38:17,200
of their internal value system.
810
00:38:17,510 --> 00:38:21,090
Rich: And what I heard consistently,
you women should be happy to be
811
00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:22,680
here playing and getting paid.
812
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,250
We, the United States Soccer
Federation, we have invested more
813
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:29,640
money in your team than any other
federation around the world.
814
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:31,470
Be happy, shut up and play.
815
00:38:33,660 --> 00:38:35,030
Well, they have to invest
816
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,890
Kim: in that team because it's the
only one they have that's winning.
817
00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:39,780
So they have to do it.
818
00:38:40,070 --> 00:38:40,720
That's not the logic.
819
00:38:40,750 --> 00:38:41,540
I understand.
820
00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:41,970
That's not
821
00:38:41,970 --> 00:38:42,829
Rich: the logic at all.
822
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:44,739
That's not their mindset.
823
00:38:44,740 --> 00:38:47,939
Their logic, in my view, having
been with them and listened
824
00:38:47,940 --> 00:38:51,589
to the Federation, they would
rather not have them, the U.
825
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:51,709
S.
826
00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:52,809
Women's National Soccer Team.
827
00:38:53,649 --> 00:38:57,100
Because their focus is the men's
team and being a feeder system
828
00:38:57,240 --> 00:38:59,030
for the MLS and the Pro Leagues.
829
00:38:59,050 --> 00:38:59,930
That's all they care about.
830
00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:00,979
They don't care about the women.
831
00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:02,390
That's They still don't.
832
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:04,520
They still don't.
833
00:39:04,910 --> 00:39:06,400
And still don't provide women respect.
834
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,590
Kim: Why is it that you
like to represent women?
835
00:39:10,070 --> 00:39:16,540
Why are you drawn to the stories and to
the support and to be an ally of women?
836
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:17,999
What do you think that is?
837
00:39:18,050 --> 00:39:22,870
Rich: Because me, I believe that
That women are stronger, have
838
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:24,820
stronger constitutions than men.
839
00:39:25,130 --> 00:39:28,880
Women, when women are committed
to something, it gets done.
840
00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:30,210
Women do the work.
841
00:39:37,980 --> 00:39:40,190
Kim: What is your wish for every woman?
842
00:39:40,510 --> 00:39:42,320
Rich: That women take stock.
843
00:39:43,140 --> 00:39:46,959
And don't listen to all this noise
out here that's constantly telling
844
00:39:46,959 --> 00:39:52,639
you, either verbally, overtly,
covertly, that you are a woman.
845
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,990
aren't worth it.
846
00:39:54,990 --> 00:39:55,940
Forget all that.
847
00:39:56,740 --> 00:39:57,720
You're more than worth it.
848
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:00,170
You're stronger than the rest
of these clowns out here.
849
00:40:00,580 --> 00:40:05,640
Just focus on you, your objectives,
and get it done, notwithstanding
850
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:09,709
all the obstacles that men are
going to put out there for you.
851
00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:10,000
Period.
852
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:11,609
Just keep going and you'll get there.
853
00:40:12,070 --> 00:40:15,030
It's going to be hard,
but you got to keep going.
854
00:40:15,110 --> 00:40:17,140
Otherwise, you're not going to
be in control of your destiny.
855
00:40:18,705 --> 00:40:22,175
But you got what it takes,
it's in there and the men know
856
00:40:22,175 --> 00:40:23,055
it and they're afraid of you.
857
00:40:25,275 --> 00:40:28,015
Force them to face their
fears and their fear is you.
858
00:40:28,525 --> 00:40:29,245
Force them to face it.
859
00:40:31,245 --> 00:40:32,145
Kim: Be visible.
860
00:40:33,174 --> 00:40:34,355
Use your voice.
861
00:40:35,384 --> 00:40:39,985
Every other woman needs you to lead.
862
00:40:51,045 --> 00:40:55,315
Voice Lessons is co produced,
written, and spoken by me.
863
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,520
Kim Cutable.
864
00:40:57,110 --> 00:41:00,550
It's also co produced and
edited by Sergio Miranda.
865
00:41:01,180 --> 00:41:05,479
You can find past episodes, show
notes, and the cool stuff our guests
866
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,500
recommend at voicelessonspodcast.
867
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:09,200
com.