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If you're working harder than ever and still relying on
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job titles, performance reviews, and just do your best, but
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your team feels really confused, disengaged, or burnt out, this
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might be what's happening. No one really knows what they're
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doing today. We're breaking down why lack of role clarity
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is quietly killing performance, motivation and trust even in the
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best of companies. So this conversation is for leaders and
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employees who feel busy but not aligned. David Cohen is
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here to discuss exactly that role clarity. He's a business
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leader and founder of ds Cohen and Associates, and he
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helps organizations do just that, create role clarity. So I'd
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love to jump right in, David. It's great to see you.
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I'm curious as to why so many people feel so
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confused or disengaged at their jobs.
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Well, a lot of it has to do with two things.
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Is they're giving a role according to a job description,
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and they have certain expectations from that which don't match
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up to reality. So they get into a role and
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therefore they're expected to do things or not do things
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that they thought they should be doing. And the other
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part of it is is leaders don't communicate goals very clearly.
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So when goals are not are ambiguous, that leaves the
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person the autonomy to try to make their own decisions,
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and often those are the wrong decisions. So as a
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result of that, there's this confusion in the workplace, and
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when it comes in backfires, people get disheartened, disillusioned, and
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aren't sure why they're there.
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Yeah, so if leaders are still relying on job descriptions, titles,
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and reviews, why isn't that enough?
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Because job descriptions are usually dated day they've written. Job
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descriptions are generic in nature, their general they cover, they're
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meant to cover everything, and sometimes by covering everything they cover,
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they missed the specifics of what that job is. Because
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there's a ocean of skills and knowledge and background and
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licenses and all this other stuff that matter the person's
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supposed to have, but they can't do all of that
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all the time. Their role is set up to do
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a specific job which is limited in scope, and therefore
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they have to have clarity as to what it is.
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They also have to have clarity that what is expected
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of them will enable them to achieve the outcomes they
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want to achieve. So sometimes that's where we get role ambiguity,
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we get roll conflict, we get all these different aspects
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of role behavior. So you know, an individual is willing
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to do their job. Is role acceptance. So I want
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to just go through a couple of points here. Role
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accepted is when somebody is willing to do the job.
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It doesn't mean they're going to do it successfully, They're
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just willing to do the job. Role expectations then is
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what others think you're supposed to be doing. So it's
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the expectation of others think that you think an individual
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is responsible for doing and they feel should be done.
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So there's role acceptance and role expectations. Now there's also
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if you add to that a role concept, and what
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the individual thinks he or she should be doing is
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the concept of the role. Now here's the problem. What
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happens when the role, the role concept which the person
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is willing to do role acceptance is in conflict with
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role expectations. So there is no that's when you get
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they're doing my job, or why is this falling through
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the cracks? Or you know, why does this person do
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that when I'm doing that already? So now we have
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confusion in the workplace creates animosity, things begin to fall
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through the cracks. You get that, you know, great corporate salute.
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You know, it ain't my job, it's there, Yeah, you know,
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don't blame me all this other stuff because of a
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lack of role clarity.
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Yeah, or people just shut right down and then they
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don't want to do anything because they have no clue
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what's going on.
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So what is the cost of this?
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Like what what happens when there's no clear expectation and communication,
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Like what happens?
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Well, work doesn't get done. People realize on a project
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late in the project that something didn't happen. You get
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a lot of blame them behavior, a lot of excuse management.
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And as a result of that, there's delays, there's overruns,
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there's bad feelings. You know, he or she's always getting
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me blamed for not doing my job when they're not
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doing their job. Role clarity is something which is very
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difficult to achieve if it's not set out. I believe
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in a team environment where everybody in the group can
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understand what each other is doing. And that's what I've
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done a lot of exercises on role clarification over the
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years with groups where there's been a lot of what
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I call role conflict. And role conflict is simply it's
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when one person thinks that the other person's pursuit is
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their goal. So role conflict is, you're doing the job
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that I'm supposed to be doing. You're achieving the outcomes
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that I'm supposed to be working on. Now we have
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role conflict and one person therefore seen as obstructing the
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other person. They're preventing me from doing my job successfully.
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And that's when you know, the stuff we're talking about
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is beginning to fall through the cracks. And the other
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part is when there's role ambiguity. So role conflict is
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when two people think they have the same goals and objectives.
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And role ambiguity is when, due to a lack of
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clarity by the manager or the organization, we're due to
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a lack of clear responsibilities, two people think they're doing
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the same thing. Or individuals may exhibit role ambiguity because
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they're less capable of doing the job that they were
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asked to do. So they were hired for the job,
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they're not capable of doing the job. It's not what
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they're supposed to be doing, and now they have role ambiguity.
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Why am I doing this? You know? Why am I
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in this role? So there's role conflict, there's role ambiguity,
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and efficacy really only happens when the perception that one
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has of their capability and the experiences they have make
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them successful in the role. So role efficacy is when
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there's alignment with understanding my goals how they fit into
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the team's goals. I have the capability to do the job,
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I'm willing to do the job, and therefore I'm going
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to do it successfully. So there's all these different aspects
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of role responsibility and only then when those are clear
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people can get along in the team. Because to me,
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teamwork is defined simply as the integration of roles, goals,
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and responsibilities. When roles are not clearly integra rated and
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wind up with either role conflict, the role ambiguity, you
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or or urle expectations are not clear because everybody thinks
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somebody else is supposed to do something, then you have
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a team that's not going to be effective. So one
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of the first things people need to do when they're
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building a team, and that's you know, it's when they're
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they're forming, is they need to really take the time
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to address role clarity. And by role clarity, people have
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the art, have the ability to negotiate. You know, that's
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your expertise, you should be working on this, or I
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need your help in doing this, or I can volunteer
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to help you in doing this, and that becomes a
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very more of a symbiotic relationship.
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Yeah, I feel like if people don't know what they're
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doing and there it's not clearly defined.
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That creates a lot of psychological like turmoil.
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It makes people feel unsafe and they don't trust anybody
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and they feel like people don't trust them because I
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know in the past, when I had a role I
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wasn't clearly defined and I saw someone else doing my role,
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it made me feel like the leader didn't have the
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trust in faith that I would do it properly. That's
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why the other person was doing it. But the problem
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was no one knew what was going on, so no
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one had the clarity. But it created such like a
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psychological turmoil in my brain. I just felt so unsafe
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and it was like my body couldn't relax.
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Yeah, there's you know, there's a concept that when this
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happens and one person in the group is the outlier
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and you have group thinking the role that they're supposed
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to do it, then there becomes even greater pressure in
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the group that this person who didn't think it was
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a responsibility everybody else does think now comes in play
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and makes that person even more of an outsider, more
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uncertain of what they're supposed to do. So, yeah, you
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need to be able to have that role clarity, so
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you feel that you're making a contribution, because one thing
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that's going to you know, make sure that somebody is
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having a good employee experience. A good employee experience is
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only when they feel they're making a contribution that's meaningful
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to the work that they're doing and get recognized and
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acknowledged for that. That's going to lead to a good experience.
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And SHERM just came out with it's two thousand and
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six Workforce Report where it says where it says that
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the key issue for the coming year is going to
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be ensure that employees have a good workforce experience. That
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good workforce experience goes along with a number of things
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that they're aligned with the values of the organization. They
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believe that the organization and their contribution is meaningful, but
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in order to achieve that, they have to have rule
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clarity that the work they're doing is meaningful. And if
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in fact the workforce experience is successful, is positive, then
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it's a no brainer workforce You know, employee engagement falls
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in place because without no matter what you do with employees,
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if the experience is negative, all of those football tables
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and basketball courts and parties and all that becomes meaningless
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because they're not feeling good about themselves at work. So
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it's workforce experience will lead to work workforce engagement. But
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without a positive workforce experience, engagement is the golden ring
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on the merry go round that people just keep missing.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So how detailed does a role need to be? Like,
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how do you begin to define a role?
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Well, there's you know, there's task specifics, there's reward systems
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that go along with it, there's all sorts of things
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that go into it. But it's really an easy exercise.
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So let me give away sort of the the goal.
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What I consider the four questions that everybody in the
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group has to answer according to the job description, according
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to what my boss has told me. What are the
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role expectations that I have? What are the things that
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I What are the things that I am in theory
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supposed to do, and therefore I need to be able
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to read those out. I mean, I know that these
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are the things that the job description my boss said
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that I have to do, So I am able to
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do those fairly clearly. And it's not a problem if
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in fact everything is clear. Now, the second part, or
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the second question is what are the role? What is
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in the role that I take on? For myself? What
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are the things that I enjoy doing in the job
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and for the group I'm in? Which are beyond the
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job description? Which are the things that I just know
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I'm good at, I enjoy doing, that I get away
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with and I, you know, feel good about. Those are
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the first two questions. So what is expected of me?
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And what do I contribute to the job over and
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above what's expected of me? Third question is interesting, what
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do I need from other people to be successful in
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my job? Are people based on what I expect of
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them in their roles? What can they do to help
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me be successful? And the fourth question is really interesting,
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it's what can I contribute to other people for them
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to be successful? Now, all of a sudden, when you
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sit in a group and each persons work those things
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out beforehand, and they start hearing, wait a second, that's
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what I enjoy doing. Why are they doing it? It's
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not part of their job, it's my job. And you
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start to understand, Oh, that person can really help me
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be successful. I should be approaching them. They get this
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information or get this support, and they should be approaching me.
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And if they don't, I can go to them because
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they said they need the help for me, so I
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can approach them. So answering these four questions, you know,
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really helps you under stand in that group setting, where
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there is role conflict, where there's role ambiguity, what is
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the role expectation, what is the role experience? So there's
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clarity and okay, now we can work together and we
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have what I call the definition of a team, an
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integration of roles, goals and responsibilities, because as that process
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rolls out, there has to be clarity of goals because
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if my goal is to do this, therefore all that
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falls in place. But if my goal isn't defined correctly,
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I might be doing all the wrong things. So it's
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really about getting people to understand each other, understand what
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they're doing on the job and how they contribute to
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each other's success and so as a group they can
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achieve what it is that they're supposed to achieve.
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So how often should roles be revisited?
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Like, I mean, stuff of all companies change, they grow.
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How often should leaders be reviewing roles?
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Well, it really depends. I mean, if they're putting a
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new process in, they're putting a new project in, they're
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changing the strategy. Obviously roles should be clarified at the
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beginning of that process. If they haven't been clarified for
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a couple of years and everybody's just resting on the
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laurels and getting in a run of doing what they're doing.
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When there's new people on the team, there should be
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some sort of activity which allows those new people to
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understand what others expect of them. It's not just see,
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it's not just what the manager expects of you. It's
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also what others that you work with expect of you.
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And I remember when we did this exercise in a
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very interesting way with a university varsity hockey team University
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Notre Dame, where you know there's each player as their responsibility,
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but they really weren't talking to each other and communicating
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about how they can help each other be successful and
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what they needed from other players on the team to
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be successful. So there was disagreements. There was you know, like,
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why aren't you doing this well? I didn't think it
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was my job or this. When they finally got that clarified,
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they were able to accomplish a season that took them
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to you know, the NCAA Championship round. So and that
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was the first time in the school's street that they
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got that far. So well, clarification and how one's behaviors
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interact in that job really help each other understand how
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can they contribute to each other's success. It's nobody works
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as an island under themselves.
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Yeah, one thing that comes to mind is how do
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you create clarity without micromanaging Because I was thing that
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I remember back in the day, like my leader was
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such a micromanager and that drove me away, as nobody
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wants someone over their shoulder.
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Yeah, it's if you if you set this out correctly
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at the beginning of the process. Therefore, in order for
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this to work, your expectations, your goals have to be cleared.
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Once everybody agrees on how they can help each other
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and others can help them be successful. That's when the
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manager should just back off and go off and be
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doing something else to help the team grow and get
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more activities, get involved other things. You know, when we
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talk about the four stages of team development, forming, storming, normally,
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and performing, you know there's really a fifth stage, which
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is the team disintegrates or so the team doesn't have
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to disintegrate, that manager should be leaving that team alone
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because they're performing and going off and finding other things.
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That's when the team leader becomes more as a freedom
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to become strategic. But a lot a lot of people
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just and that's part of role conflict and role ambiguity
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because a lot of managers who got really happy doing
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the job they did, get promoted and don't want to
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give up their job and it's the way job. So
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now we got all sorts of issues with roles, and
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the impact is, as you just said, you have a
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feeling that they're micromanaging me, they feel they're just enjoying
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doing their job, or you do the feeling that I'm
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not qualified, I'm not good enough. You know, they're stepping
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on my toes and I don't have the freedom to
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do my job, and so managers have to be really
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careful about that. And that's why a role clarification exercise
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like this will really help people understand. As the manager
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team knows what they need to do, check in with
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them that they're doing it. Set up a check in
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schedule every two weeks, every three weeks, whatever it is,
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send benchmarks for what has to be achieved by those
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three weeks or whatever, and then disappear and do your job.
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Yeah, for sure, that just goes to show how important
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communication is. But I know that a lot of employees
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feel afraid to speak up, especially when their role isn't clear,
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because they're already feeling uneasy. So what is a simple
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way that you can start this conversation safely that makes
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someone feel like they have the ability to open up.
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I think you're asking those four questions. Yeah, what is
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what is expected of you in the job? What do
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you do because you enjoy doing it or you feel
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that you can do it really well? What can you do?
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What can others do to contribute to your success? And
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what can you do to contribute to other success? And
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there will be things in there that people are going,
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like the managers, you're going to say, well, that's not
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your role. Why is it on my role? If these
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are my goals, if this is what I'm supposed to do.
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So by giving them that platform, you give them the
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ability to speak, not because they have a concern or complaint,
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but because you ask them for specific information they're sharing.
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And as long as you don't react inappropriately and belittle
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their answer, you've opened up communications and it can be
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clarified in four months, Have we got this right? They're
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the things that maybe somebody else can do that contribute,
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and you find out during this exercise there are things
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that people know that you didn't even know. It wasn't
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on the resume. They didn't you know, for whatever reason,
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they didn't ever say they can do something, and all
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of a sudden they say, oh, if somebody needs this,
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I can do that. You know I've done that before,
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I'm interested or I'm studying that now. And you can
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open up communications. But if the manager is going to
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micromanage and tell everybody to do there's going to be
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all sorts of role issues.
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M should someone be dabbling in someone else's role if
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it's necessary, or should roles be clearly defined? And like say,
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say I knew that I had the time to help
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this other person out, but it wasn't my role in
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general terms, should I be doing it or should I
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keep it?
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Like so that that's that person's role and my role
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is my role. It really doesn't lead together. I'm like
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that on the.
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Culture of the company. Always ask permission, don't ask forgiveness
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in that case, because if you ask permission, like you know,
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I see that you're overwhelmed, or I see that you
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know you're you keep reviewing this, I've got some free time,
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I want to help you out. Is that Okay? Do
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you need help? Can I show you maybe a shortcut? Whatever?
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But ask permission first, And if you're doing role clarity,
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that fourth that those questions of what can I do
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to help other people? And what can other people do
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to help me? One of the things that I might
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say is, well other people can help me if they
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see me struggling, is they ask me if I need
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any help? Okay, So now I've given permission to others
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to offer that advice or offer that assistance. So it's
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a powerful process.
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Right, And then is it up to the leader to
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communicate that to the team that this has been arranged
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like because I know that if I saw someone stepping
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outside their role and I didn't understand why, then it
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would confuse me as an employee.
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Well, no, that has to be clarified in the role
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clarification exercise. People expect that to happen if, in fact,
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that's part of the agreement, right, part of the agreement
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is nobody talks. You know, once this is done, don't
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interfere with other people's roles. Then yeah, you're not going
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to step outside your role to help somebody. Again, the
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culture and the nature of the work, the nature of
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the organization's.
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Values, right, right, Yeah, I mean it makes sense. It
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comes down to just clear communication. And I feel like
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roles can change like quite often, like with development and
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so like just going over those like and making sure
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that everyone knows what they're doing. Like, it's so powerful
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when a team is all in the same page, like
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you said, like you can I don't know. I'm thinking
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of the Great Cup. You can win the Great Cup
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if your football team is on the same page and
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they know what their role is, You're going to go
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far to the top. But I'm picturing a team falling
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apart because no one knows what to do. It's like
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everyone's standing around and they're thinking.
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Like should I be doing that? Or is this person
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going to be doing that? Oh, it's such a chaotic feeling.
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Yes it is. And here's the thing that if when
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roles do change, if somebody the team gets promoted, that
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means somebody knew is doing their job, and that's when
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they continue to do their job. So what they have
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to understand is what got them to be successful and
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promoted is no longer their responsibility because it won't get
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them to the next level. It'll keep them at the
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level they're at. So once they're in a new role,
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they have to understand what got them there is not
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going to get them further. And they have to understand,
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this is what got me here, Let me mentor and
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share that with a new person of my role so
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they can be successful and I can move on to
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do my job.
403
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Yeah, because that person could literally prevent the new person
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coming in and being successful.
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Oh yeah, yeah, why they still do it? Well? I
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always I joke with employees where bosses seem seem to
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always want to do the job of everybody else. I said,
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you got to you got a great job. You can
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come in show your face, go to the gym, workout,
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have a long lunch, come back and know your work's
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done because your boss has done it for you.
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Right.
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They'll never get angry at if for not doing your work,
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but you can do all sorts of other things and right.
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Bosses sometimes get into that habit of let me help out.
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Helping out becomes doing the job for.
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Them, right, and then that's where that quiet resentment starts
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to build. Yeah, So if listeners out there remember like
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one thing about role clarity from today, what should it.
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Be that role ambiguity and role conflict come when roles
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are when different people have different expectations of the roles,
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and that people need that are working together have to
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have a mutual expectation of what that role is. So
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not justsari, I don't know I have a role. I
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think it's this, but I better make sure everybody else agrees.
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So the role expectation other people's feelings about the role
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is what I think I will do. It's my role acceptance.
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So what I've accepted to do is what other people
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expect me to do, and therefore we'll have efficacy in
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the role.
431
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So what about the person out there that is like,
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oh my god, this is so my team, we are
433
00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:47.359
so out of sorts. Can you give leaders or employees
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a bunch of like maybe five tips that they can
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do this week to start creating more clarity.
436
00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.119
Well, first thing is they have to make sure that
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everybody understands the role objectives and expected outcomes and they
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have a mutual understanding of it. They have to identify
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what is prescribed in the role job description that they
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00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:20.880
need skill, knowledge, experience to be able to execute that role.
441
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That has to be clear. And they also have to
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look at the role ambiguity. In other words, they have
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to look at what do people do because they enjoy
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doing it that might cause problems. And then they have
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to ask people what these are things I need from
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you in order for me to be successful, and these
447
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are the things I can contribute to you for you
448
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to be successful, and then allow people to have that
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flow of information. But if the boss doesn't think that
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it's time well invested, there's always going to be that
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uneasiness about the role.
452
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:03.720
They're heard it right, right, So David, thank you so
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much for this conversation.
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Can you tell everyone a little bit more about what
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you do?
456
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Yeah, I work with organizations on helping them identify the
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behaviors of the values, the authentic behaviors of the authentic
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values of the organization, and then help them align hiring
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processes and other talent management activities so people get those
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behaviors reinforced, rewarded, developed, etc. And I work with the
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organizations and executives on ensuring that they, as leaders have
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the courage to live their values, learn how to say
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00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.839
yes and learn how to say no. I've recently written
464
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:50.400
a book called Selecting the Best, which looks at how
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do you identify the authentic values and behaviors and then
466
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.839
how do you hire people that fit the culture, fit
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the values of the organization. And that is the first step,
468
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because if you don't have the right people, you're not
469
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gonna have the right execution.
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Yeah, that's the start. With the people, for sure. For sure,
471
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always the people, Always the people. I still come back
472
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to that image in my mind of Starbucks, like literally
473
00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:20.039
I was there last week again and like everyone singing
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songs together and it's just like a fun place to be.
475
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That to me is like the goal of an organization.
476
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And I mean I'm not saying everyone's singing songs all
477
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:33.039
the time, but everyone just seemed so in flow together,
478
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just doing what they needed to do, and the vibe
479
00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.559
and the energy was just on point. I just keep
480
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:46.240
going back to that organization. Yeah, So where can people
481
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:47.799
find out more information about you?
482
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:54.000
They could either contact me on LinkedIn or they can
483
00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:00.119
contact me at my website which is sag ltd dot
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00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:02.079
Come amazing.
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Do you have any last minute things you want to
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leave the audience with today.
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That enjoy your work and make sure that your value
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is aligned with the company's values ad vice versa, and
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that you understand what it is that you do that
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contributes to something bigger than yourself.
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I love that. Thank you so much for this amazing conversation, David.
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Thank you for the time.
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And to our audience. Get clear on the role that
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you're doing because it can provide.
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You with a lot of relief.
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Clarity brings so much relief when you know what you're doing,
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You actually become excited about what you're doing.
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Until next time, take care of everybody.
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If you're working harder than ever and still relying on
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job titles, performance reviews, and just do your best, but
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your team feels really confused, disengaged, or burnt out, this
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might be what's happening. No one really knows what they're
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doing today. We're breaking down why lack of role clarity
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is quietly killing performance, motivation and trust even in the
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best of companies. So this conversation is for leaders and
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employees who feel busy but not aligned. David Cohen is
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here to discuss exactly that role clarity. He's a business
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leader and founder of ds Cohen and Associates, and he
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helps organizations do just that, create role clarity. So I'd
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love to jump right in, David. It's great to see you.
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I'm curious as to why so many people feel so
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confused or disengaged at their jobs.
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Well, a lot of it has to do with two things.
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Is they're giving a role according to a job description,
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and they have certain expectations from that which don't match
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up to reality. So they get into a role and
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therefore they're expected to do things or not do things
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that they thought they should be doing. And the other
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part of it is is leaders don't communicate goals very clearly.
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So when goals are not are ambiguous, that leaves the
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person the autonomy to try to make their own decisions,
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and often those are the wrong decisions. So as a
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result of that, there's this confusion in the workplace, and
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when it comes in backfires, people get disheartened, disillusioned, and
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aren't sure why they're there.
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Yeah, so if leaders are still relying on job descriptions, titles,
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and reviews, why isn't that enough?
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Because job descriptions are usually dated day they've written. Job
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descriptions are generic in nature, their general they cover, they're
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meant to cover everything, and sometimes by covering everything they cover,
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they missed the specifics of what that job is. Because
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there's a ocean of skills and knowledge and background and
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licenses and all this other stuff that matter the person's
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supposed to have, but they can't do all of that
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all the time. Their role is set up to do
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a specific job which is limited in scope, and therefore
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they have to have clarity as to what it is.
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They also have to have clarity that what is expected
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of them will enable them to achieve the outcomes they
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want to achieve. So sometimes that's where we get role ambiguity,
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we get roll conflict, we get all these different aspects
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of role behavior. So you know, an individual is willing
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to do their job. Is role acceptance. So I want
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to just go through a couple of points here. Role
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accepted is when somebody is willing to do the job.
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It doesn't mean they're going to do it successfully, They're
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just willing to do the job. Role expectations then is
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what others think you're supposed to be doing. So it's
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the expectation of others think that you think an individual
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is responsible for doing and they feel should be done.
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So there's role acceptance and role expectations. Now there's also
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if you add to that a role concept, and what
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the individual thinks he or she should be doing is
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the concept of the role. Now here's the problem. What
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happens when the role, the role concept which the person
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is willing to do role acceptance is in conflict with
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role expectations. So there is no that's when you get
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they're doing my job, or why is this falling through
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the cracks? Or you know, why does this person do
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that when I'm doing that already? So now we have
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confusion in the workplace creates animosity, things begin to fall
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through the cracks. You get that, you know, great corporate salute.
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You know, it ain't my job, it's there, Yeah, you know,
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don't blame me all this other stuff because of a
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lack of role clarity.
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Yeah, or people just shut right down and then they
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don't want to do anything because they have no clue
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what's going on.
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So what is the cost of this?
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Like what what happens when there's no clear expectation and communication,
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Like what happens?
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Well, work doesn't get done. People realize on a project
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late in the project that something didn't happen. You get
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a lot of blame them behavior, a lot of excuse management.
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And as a result of that, there's delays, there's overruns,
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there's bad feelings. You know, he or she's always getting
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me blamed for not doing my job when they're not
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doing their job. Role clarity is something which is very
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difficult to achieve if it's not set out. I believe
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in a team environment where everybody in the group can
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understand what each other is doing. And that's what I've
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done a lot of exercises on role clarification over the
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years with groups where there's been a lot of what
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I call role conflict. And role conflict is simply it's
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when one person thinks that the other person's pursuit is
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their goal. So role conflict is, you're doing the job
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that I'm supposed to be doing. You're achieving the outcomes
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that I'm supposed to be working on. Now we have
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role conflict and one person therefore seen as obstructing the
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other person. They're preventing me from doing my job successfully.
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And that's when you know, the stuff we're talking about
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is beginning to fall through the cracks. And the other
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part is when there's role ambiguity. So role conflict is
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when two people think they have the same goals and objectives.
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And role ambiguity is when, due to a lack of
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clarity by the manager or the organization, we're due to
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a lack of clear responsibilities, two people think they're doing
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the same thing. Or individuals may exhibit role ambiguity because
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they're less capable of doing the job that they were
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asked to do. So they were hired for the job,
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they're not capable of doing the job. It's not what
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they're supposed to be doing, and now they have role ambiguity.
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Why am I doing this? You know? Why am I
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in this role? So there's role conflict, there's role ambiguity,
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and efficacy really only happens when the perception that one
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has of their capability and the experiences they have make
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them successful in the role. So role efficacy is when
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there's alignment with understanding my goals how they fit into
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the team's goals. I have the capability to do the job,
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I'm willing to do the job, and therefore I'm going
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to do it successfully. So there's all these different aspects
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of role responsibility and only then when those are clear
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people can get along in the team. Because to me,
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teamwork is defined simply as the integration of roles, goals,
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and responsibilities. When roles are not clearly integra rated and
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wind up with either role conflict, the role ambiguity, you
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or or urle expectations are not clear because everybody thinks
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somebody else is supposed to do something, then you have
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a team that's not going to be effective. So one
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of the first things people need to do when they're
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building a team, and that's you know, it's when they're
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they're forming, is they need to really take the time
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to address role clarity. And by role clarity, people have
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the art, have the ability to negotiate. You know, that's
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your expertise, you should be working on this, or I
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need your help in doing this, or I can volunteer
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to help you in doing this, and that becomes a
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very more of a symbiotic relationship.
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Yeah, I feel like if people don't know what they're
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doing and there it's not clearly defined.
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That creates a lot of psychological like turmoil.
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It makes people feel unsafe and they don't trust anybody
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and they feel like people don't trust them because I
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know in the past, when I had a role I
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wasn't clearly defined and I saw someone else doing my role,
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it made me feel like the leader didn't have the
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trust in faith that I would do it properly. That's
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why the other person was doing it. But the problem
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was no one knew what was going on, so no
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one had the clarity. But it created such like a
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psychological turmoil in my brain. I just felt so unsafe
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and it was like my body couldn't relax.
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Yeah, there's you know, there's a concept that when this
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happens and one person in the group is the outlier
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and you have group thinking the role that they're supposed
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to do it, then there becomes even greater pressure in
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the group that this person who didn't think it was
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a responsibility everybody else does think now comes in play
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and makes that person even more of an outsider, more
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uncertain of what they're supposed to do. So, yeah, you
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need to be able to have that role clarity, so
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you feel that you're making a contribution, because one thing
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that's going to you know, make sure that somebody is
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having a good employee experience. A good employee experience is
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only when they feel they're making a contribution that's meaningful
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to the work that they're doing and get recognized and
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acknowledged for that. That's going to lead to a good experience.
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And SHERM just came out with it's two thousand and
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six Workforce Report where it says where it says that
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the key issue for the coming year is going to
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be ensure that employees have a good workforce experience. That
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good workforce experience goes along with a number of things
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that they're aligned with the values of the organization. They
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believe that the organization and their contribution is meaningful, but
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in order to achieve that, they have to have rule
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clarity that the work they're doing is meaningful. And if
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in fact the workforce experience is successful, is positive, then
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it's a no brainer workforce You know, employee engagement falls
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in place because without no matter what you do with employees,
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if the experience is negative, all of those football tables
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and basketball courts and parties and all that becomes meaningless
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because they're not feeling good about themselves at work. So
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it's workforce experience will lead to work workforce engagement. But
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without a positive workforce experience, engagement is the golden ring
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on the merry go round that people just keep missing.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So how detailed does a role need to be? Like,
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how do you begin to define a role?
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Well, there's you know, there's task specifics, there's reward systems
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that go along with it, there's all sorts of things
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that go into it. But it's really an easy exercise.
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So let me give away sort of the the goal.
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What I consider the four questions that everybody in the
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group has to answer according to the job description, according
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to what my boss has told me. What are the
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role expectations that I have? What are the things that
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I What are the things that I am in theory
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supposed to do, and therefore I need to be able
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to read those out. I mean, I know that these
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are the things that the job description my boss said
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that I have to do, So I am able to
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do those fairly clearly. And it's not a problem if
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in fact everything is clear. Now, the second part, or
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the second question is what are the role? What is
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in the role that I take on? For myself? What
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are the things that I enjoy doing in the job
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and for the group I'm in? Which are beyond the
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job description? Which are the things that I just know
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I'm good at, I enjoy doing, that I get away
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with and I, you know, feel good about. Those are
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the first two questions. So what is expected of me?
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And what do I contribute to the job over and
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above what's expected of me? Third question is interesting, what
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do I need from other people to be successful in
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my job? Are people based on what I expect of
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them in their roles? What can they do to help
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me be successful? And the fourth question is really interesting,
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it's what can I contribute to other people for them
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to be successful? Now, all of a sudden, when you
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sit in a group and each persons work those things
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out beforehand, and they start hearing, wait a second, that's
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what I enjoy doing. Why are they doing it? It's
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not part of their job, it's my job. And you
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start to understand, Oh, that person can really help me
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be successful. I should be approaching them. They get this
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information or get this support, and they should be approaching me.
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And if they don't, I can go to them because
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they said they need the help for me, so I
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can approach them. So answering these four questions, you know,
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really helps you under stand in that group setting, where
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there is role conflict, where there's role ambiguity, what is
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the role expectation, what is the role experience? So there's
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clarity and okay, now we can work together and we
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have what I call the definition of a team, an
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integration of roles, goals and responsibilities, because as that process
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rolls out, there has to be clarity of goals because
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if my goal is to do this, therefore all that
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falls in place. But if my goal isn't defined correctly,
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I might be doing all the wrong things. So it's
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really about getting people to understand each other, understand what
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they're doing on the job and how they contribute to
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each other's success and so as a group they can
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achieve what it is that they're supposed to achieve.
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So how often should roles be revisited?
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Like, I mean, stuff of all companies change, they grow.
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How often should leaders be reviewing roles?
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Well, it really depends. I mean, if they're putting a
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new process in, they're putting a new project in, they're
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changing the strategy. Obviously roles should be clarified at the
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beginning of that process. If they haven't been clarified for
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a couple of years and everybody's just resting on the
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laurels and getting in a run of doing what they're doing.
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When there's new people on the team, there should be
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some sort of activity which allows those new people to
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understand what others expect of them. It's not just see,
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it's not just what the manager expects of you. It's
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also what others that you work with expect of you.
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And I remember when we did this exercise in a
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very interesting way with a university varsity hockey team University
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Notre Dame, where you know there's each player as their responsibility,
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but they really weren't talking to each other and communicating
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about how they can help each other be successful and
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what they needed from other players on the team to
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be successful. So there was disagreements. There was you know, like,
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why aren't you doing this well? I didn't think it
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was my job or this. When they finally got that clarified,
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they were able to accomplish a season that took them
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to you know, the NCAA Championship round. So and that
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was the first time in the school's street that they
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got that far. So well, clarification and how one's behaviors
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interact in that job really help each other understand how
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can they contribute to each other's success. It's nobody works
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as an island under themselves.
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Yeah, one thing that comes to mind is how do
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you create clarity without micromanaging Because I was thing that
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I remember back in the day, like my leader was
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such a micromanager and that drove me away, as nobody
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wants someone over their shoulder.
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Yeah, it's if you if you set this out correctly
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at the beginning of the process. Therefore, in order for
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this to work, your expectations, your goals have to be cleared.
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Once everybody agrees on how they can help each other
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and others can help them be successful. That's when the
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manager should just back off and go off and be
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doing something else to help the team grow and get
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more activities, get involved other things. You know, when we
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talk about the four stages of team development, forming, storming, normally,
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and performing, you know there's really a fifth stage, which
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is the team disintegrates or so the team doesn't have
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to disintegrate, that manager should be leaving that team alone
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because they're performing and going off and finding other things.
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That's when the team leader becomes more as a freedom
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to become strategic. But a lot a lot of people
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just and that's part of role conflict and role ambiguity
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because a lot of managers who got really happy doing
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the job they did, get promoted and don't want to
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give up their job and it's the way job. So
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now we got all sorts of issues with roles, and
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the impact is, as you just said, you have a
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feeling that they're micromanaging me, they feel they're just enjoying
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doing their job, or you do the feeling that I'm
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not qualified, I'm not good enough. You know, they're stepping
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on my toes and I don't have the freedom to
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do my job, and so managers have to be really
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careful about that. And that's why a role clarification exercise
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like this will really help people understand. As the manager
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team knows what they need to do, check in with
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them that they're doing it. Set up a check in
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schedule every two weeks, every three weeks, whatever it is,
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send benchmarks for what has to be achieved by those
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three weeks or whatever, and then disappear and do your job.
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Yeah, for sure, that just goes to show how important
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communication is. But I know that a lot of employees
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feel afraid to speak up, especially when their role isn't clear,
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because they're already feeling uneasy. So what is a simple
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way that you can start this conversation safely that makes
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someone feel like they have the ability to open up.
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I think you're asking those four questions. Yeah, what is
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what is expected of you in the job? What do
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you do because you enjoy doing it or you feel
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that you can do it really well? What can you do?
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What can others do to contribute to your success? And
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what can you do to contribute to other success? And
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there will be things in there that people are going,
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like the managers, you're going to say, well, that's not
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your role. Why is it on my role? If these
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are my goals, if this is what I'm supposed to do.
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So by giving them that platform, you give them the
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ability to speak, not because they have a concern or complaint,
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but because you ask them for specific information they're sharing.
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And as long as you don't react inappropriately and belittle
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their answer, you've opened up communications and it can be
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clarified in four months, Have we got this right? They're
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the things that maybe somebody else can do that contribute,
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and you find out during this exercise there are things
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that people know that you didn't even know. It wasn't
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on the resume. They didn't you know, for whatever reason,
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they didn't ever say they can do something, and all
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of a sudden they say, oh, if somebody needs this,
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I can do that. You know I've done that before,
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I'm interested or I'm studying that now. And you can
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open up communications. But if the manager is going to
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micromanage and tell everybody to do there's going to be
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all sorts of role issues.
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M should someone be dabbling in someone else's role if
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it's necessary, or should roles be clearly defined? And like say,
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say I knew that I had the time to help
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this other person out, but it wasn't my role in
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general terms, should I be doing it or should I
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keep it?
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Like so that that's that person's role and my role
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is my role. It really doesn't lead together. I'm like
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that on the.
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Culture of the company. Always ask permission, don't ask forgiveness
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in that case, because if you ask permission, like you know,
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I see that you're overwhelmed, or I see that you
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know you're you keep reviewing this, I've got some free time,
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I want to help you out. Is that Okay? Do
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you need help? Can I show you maybe a shortcut? Whatever?
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But ask permission first, And if you're doing role clarity,
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that fourth that those questions of what can I do
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to help other people? And what can other people do
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to help me? One of the things that I might
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say is, well other people can help me if they
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see me struggling, is they ask me if I need
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any help? Okay, So now I've given permission to others
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to offer that advice or offer that assistance. So it's
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a powerful process.
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Right, And then is it up to the leader to
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communicate that to the team that this has been arranged
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like because I know that if I saw someone stepping
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outside their role and I didn't understand why, then it
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would confuse me as an employee.
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Well, no, that has to be clarified in the role
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clarification exercise. People expect that to happen if, in fact,
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that's part of the agreement, right, part of the agreement
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is nobody talks. You know, once this is done, don't
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interfere with other people's roles. Then yeah, you're not going
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to step outside your role to help somebody. Again, the
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culture and the nature of the work, the nature of
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the organization's.
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Values, right, right, Yeah, I mean it makes sense. It
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comes down to just clear communication. And I feel like
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roles can change like quite often, like with development and
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so like just going over those like and making sure
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that everyone knows what they're doing. Like, it's so powerful
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when a team is all in the same page, like
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you said, like you can I don't know. I'm thinking
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of the Great Cup. You can win the Great Cup
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if your football team is on the same page and
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they know what their role is, You're going to go
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far to the top. But I'm picturing a team falling
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apart because no one knows what to do. It's like
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everyone's standing around and they're thinking.
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Like should I be doing that? Or is this person
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going to be doing that? Oh, it's such a chaotic feeling.
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Yes it is. And here's the thing that if when
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roles do change, if somebody the team gets promoted, that
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means somebody knew is doing their job, and that's when
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they continue to do their job. So what they have
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to understand is what got them to be successful and
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promoted is no longer their responsibility because it won't get
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them to the next level. It'll keep them at the
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level they're at. So once they're in a new role,
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they have to understand what got them there is not
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going to get them further. And they have to understand,
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this is what got me here, Let me mentor and
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share that with a new person of my role so
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they can be successful and I can move on to
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do my job.
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Yeah, because that person could literally prevent the new person
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coming in and being successful.
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Oh yeah, yeah, why they still do it? Well? I
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always I joke with employees where bosses seem seem to
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always want to do the job of everybody else. I said,
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you got to you got a great job. You can
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come in show your face, go to the gym, workout,
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have a long lunch, come back and know your work's
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done because your boss has done it for you.
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Right.
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They'll never get angry at if for not doing your work,
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but you can do all sorts of other things and right.
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Bosses sometimes get into that habit of let me help out.
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Helping out becomes doing the job for.
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Them, right, and then that's where that quiet resentment starts
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to build. Yeah, So if listeners out there remember like
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one thing about role clarity from today, what should it.
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Be that role ambiguity and role conflict come when roles
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are when different people have different expectations of the roles,
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and that people need that are working together have to
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have a mutual expectation of what that role is. So
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not justsari, I don't know I have a role. I
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think it's this, but I better make sure everybody else agrees.
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So the role expectation other people's feelings about the role
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is what I think I will do. It's my role acceptance.
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So what I've accepted to do is what other people
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expect me to do, and therefore we'll have efficacy in
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the role.
431
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So what about the person out there that is like,
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oh my god, this is so my team, we are
433
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so out of sorts. Can you give leaders or employees
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a bunch of like maybe five tips that they can
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do this week to start creating more clarity.
436
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Well, first thing is they have to make sure that
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everybody understands the role objectives and expected outcomes and they
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have a mutual understanding of it. They have to identify
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what is prescribed in the role job description that they
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need skill, knowledge, experience to be able to execute that role.
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That has to be clear. And they also have to
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look at the role ambiguity. In other words, they have
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to look at what do people do because they enjoy
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doing it that might cause problems. And then they have
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to ask people what these are things I need from
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you in order for me to be successful, and these
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are the things I can contribute to you for you
448
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to be successful, and then allow people to have that
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flow of information. But if the boss doesn't think that
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it's time well invested, there's always going to be that
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uneasiness about the role.
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They're heard it right, right, So David, thank you so
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much for this conversation.
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Can you tell everyone a little bit more about what
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you do?
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Yeah, I work with organizations on helping them identify the
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behaviors of the values, the authentic behaviors of the authentic
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values of the organization, and then help them align hiring
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processes and other talent management activities so people get those
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behaviors reinforced, rewarded, developed, etc. And I work with the
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organizations and executives on ensuring that they, as leaders have
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the courage to live their values, learn how to say
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yes and learn how to say no. I've recently written
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a book called Selecting the Best, which looks at how
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do you identify the authentic values and behaviors and then
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how do you hire people that fit the culture, fit
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the values of the organization. And that is the first step,
468
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because if you don't have the right people, you're not
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gonna have the right execution.
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Yeah, that's the start. With the people, for sure. For sure,
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always the people, Always the people. I still come back
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to that image in my mind of Starbucks, like literally
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I was there last week again and like everyone singing
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songs together and it's just like a fun place to be.
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That to me is like the goal of an organization.
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And I mean I'm not saying everyone's singing songs all
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the time, but everyone just seemed so in flow together,
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just doing what they needed to do, and the vibe
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and the energy was just on point. I just keep
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going back to that organization. Yeah, So where can people
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find out more information about you?
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They could either contact me on LinkedIn or they can
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contact me at my website which is sag ltd dot
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Come amazing.
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Do you have any last minute things you want to
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leave the audience with today.
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That enjoy your work and make sure that your value
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is aligned with the company's values ad vice versa, and
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that you understand what it is that you do that
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contributes to something bigger than yourself.
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I love that. Thank you so much for this amazing conversation, David.
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Thank you for the time.
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And to our audience. Get clear on the role that
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you're doing because it can provide.
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You with a lot of relief.
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Clarity brings so much relief when you know what you're doing,
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You actually become excited about what you're doing.
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Until next time, take care of everybody.
