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The performance reviews are dreaded by your employees, avoided by managers,
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are only completed when HR chases people down, but companies
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still insist that they matter.
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What is really happening?
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Have you ever left a performance review thinking that was
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such a wasted time? Then this conversation is for you.
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David Cohen is back. He's a business leader and founder
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of DS Cohen and Associates. And by the end of
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this episode, you're going to learn why traditional performance reviews
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feel disconnected from real work. You're going to learn why
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they persist even when everyone knows that they're flawed, and
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you're going to learn practical changes you can implement now
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to make your current system stronger, more human, and more effective.
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So if you care about the performance review and you
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want to know more, stick around because we are going
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to tell you all the things. So David, welcome, Let's
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jump right in.
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This is a hot topic. Let's hopefully help some people out.
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I'm excited, you're getting fired up, So tell us about
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why are performance reviews so universally dreaded by both managers employees.
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I remember I hated them. I would look forward to it,
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but I always left disappointed. I don't know, there's just
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a lot.
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There's a lot going on. I think that some of
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the reasons are the ratings sometimes are not clear, they're
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moving targets, so people, you know, get surprised. I think that,
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you know, surprises the enemy of people's feeling confident, So
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it generates a lot of anxiety. Or managers just have
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a recency effect and they only remember what you did
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for them last week and they forget the other things.
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And if it's a negative thing you forgot, then you
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get really defensive. And therefore, you know, the conversation is
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a is A is a time bombay to happen. And
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if the process you know, reliably triggers fear, people you know,
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optimize sort of self protection and not performance. So they're
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not really about performance reviews. They are about answering that
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question why. So as soon as as soon as a
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manager asked the question why about something that happened and
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what happened wasn't positive necessarily, then it's about catching people
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doing something wrong, and people get really defensive and it
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raises anxiety. So people really don't want to get involved
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with it.
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So what emotions do reviews britt usually trigger.
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Well, the emotions. The first quote which I said, that
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question of why do you do something originally triggers it.
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The other thing that triggers it is that the people
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have had no review. I don't have time for this.
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Managers will set up a review and then they'll delay
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it because something came up. And the message, whether intended
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or not, is my direct report really doesn't count. Something
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else counts, and if something else counts, I don't count. Therefore,
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why should I be engaged? Why should I be committed?
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Why should I be held accountable if my manager is
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not held accountable to talk to me on time. So
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there becomes a whole series of a sort of a
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drain circling the you know, spiral circling the drain, and
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people just don't feel good about it.
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Yeah, I think some people treat it as like like
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in my past anything a personal experience. I remember I
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was working on a law firm and the owner he
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was doing the performance reviews, but he wasn't my direct report.
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And I walked in and he said, you took a
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long lunch one time, and that was like all he
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said to me. And I was like, what, like that
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was my performance review? And I was like so you're
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sitting here and you're pulling on the one one thing
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that I.
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Don't even know what it was I did wrong.
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I guess are against the rules, but there was nothing
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to do with what I did right. There's nothing to
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do with the work that I was doing. It was
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like completely unrelated to my actual job position.
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Is that normal?
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Unfortunately, historically it has been that people will find things
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that are not related, and I think that's one of
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the big problems. People put everything in the kitchen sink
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in the performance review, even if it's not job related.
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You know, it's really interesting. I didn't exercise once where
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I divided the group in half and I told the
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one group that they were the salespeople going in for
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the performance review. But they've been late a few ti
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times that they're not producing the work they're supposed to produce.
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But this time you're late, and the reason you're late
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is that you stopped on the highway and you saved
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the child's life by doing something that was Then the
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managers we told the person's been late, he's not hitting numbers,
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and you're under pressure, so you got to read them
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the riot Act. If you don't let them or let
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him go. So the biggest mistake is nobody inquired like
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why the person was late, so they just started to
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attack them instead of opening in a conversation. And when
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they found out when the person finally said, you know,
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told them about the highways story, they usually felt pretty
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bad about attacking them. So the whole performance review process
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is this dance that nobody wants to attend, and so
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they're hoping they don't get picked to day, but you
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got to show up, and if it was something which
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was flowed and was natural, hr wouldn't have to be
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the bad guys that are always chasing after managers to
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have them completed on time. And the other thing is
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is that we always people look up the organization for
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the see the behaviors the boss is doing, so they
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emulate those behaviors. So if their boss doesn't do it,
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then they figure, well, why should I do it with
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my direct reports Because traditionally most of it is it
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feels like an ambush. You know, during the year, you
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might have done these things that weren't necessarily successful, but
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the manager didn't have the courage or felt they didn't
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have the time to talk to you about it. So
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all of a sudden at the year's end, they pull
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out their draw full of these notes about everything you
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did wrong, and so you feel like it's a year
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end ambush. Well, no, only wants to be ambushed. So
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they find that it's really not healthy when people are
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have high anxiety because productivity goes down, retention becomes an issue,
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the employee experiences negative there's a lot of ripple effects
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with performance reviews.
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Yeah, absolutely, I mean so, I guess my question then
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is how do you modernize a performance review or make
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them effective?
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Like what are some ways to do that?
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Because I remember, like another time where another performance review
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started with that person opening a drawer and pulling out
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like a notebook and saying, this is your name and
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this is all my notes about you.
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And I was like, all.
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Right, And I mean it is terrifying. Like your job
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is essentially on the line, your raise is on the line.
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It's like if I did well in that review, I
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get a raise, right, So when it's related to your
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livelihood and like what you're putting effort in, it is
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really anxiety causing. Right, So how do you modernize performance reviews?
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Well, you hit upon a couple of interesting points. The
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first one is one of the reasons they don't work
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is because they are tied to compensation and the arch
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tides raises. So the first thing is to separate from that.
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Now everybody says they can't do that, but there are
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ways of doing that. And you know, I was once
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working with the company and I said to the head
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of HR and the CEO, I said, we've got this
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great process going, but separate the compensation discussion. Make it
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six months separated from the performance review annual review, so
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they don't see the compensations directly related to how they're doing.
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So they have the freedom to do the good job
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and not get anxious about it. Because once you get
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a boat his year after year, it's kind of a
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fixed thing and you expect it and if you don't
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get it, you didn't know you weren't going to get it.
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That really becomes anxious because most people spend it before
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they have it. So I said, separate it. They didn't
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for various reasons. He then went off to one of
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the major schools to get in a executive MBA in
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talent management and he came back and he laughed, and
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I said why. He said, I did the case study
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on our performance review and I got in ninety five.
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When I asked the professor, why did I get a hundred?
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What was missing? What was the missing point? He said,
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you should have separated the performance reviews from compensation. Oh so,
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he said, I knew in theory that's a great idea,
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but in reality it doesn't work. But there are organizations
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that have separated. And you know it's that bonus is
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a big deal to people. Even though it's part of
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their annual they see it as part of their annual salary,
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so they kind of plan for it, especially if they
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don't work too hard to get their results. So it's
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something which I believe has to be rethought. That's one
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thing that has to be rethought. The other thing is,
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as we said, it's I'm going to catch you by
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surprise when I talk to you, or I only talk
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to you if I do something wrong. If I only
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talk to you when I do something wrong. That anxiety,
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that anticipation of you know, you caught me doing something wrong,
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it's going to create that defensiveness, that anxiety. So how
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do you change that? Is you convert feedback to feed forward.
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What do I mean by that, Well, that is instead
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of talking about what you did wrong, talk about what
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you can do to be successful. So the conversation doesn't
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take too long. It takes like ten minutes, maybe even less.
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And it's how are you doing? You know, are you
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making progress? What help do you need? Where are your obstacles?
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What's the things that I can do to help you
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be successful? And say, you know, going forward, here's some ideas,
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here's some suggestions, and give the individual the autonomy to
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take the action the way they want and then follow
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up with them how is it going? So if they
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were check ins every ninety days for ten minutes with people,
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unless check ins are documented and you see the people
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through you helping them. The other thing that I think
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is managers feel that they have to rely on themselves
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to do coaching. And usually there's people on the team
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that are masters away what they do. They're great at
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what they do. What's wrong with acknowledging that by saying
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to a direct report, you know, you know, Sally has
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been really good at this, She's been doing this, she's
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surprising everybody. She's doing a great job. What I want
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to do is hook you up with Sally so she
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can help you be successful. Now, if you think about it,
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it's kind of like, you know, the Olympic athlete. When
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the Olympic actively trains, they visualize success, they don't visualize failure.
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So they're always thinking forward and they're always saying what
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can I do differently to be successful? But yet in
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performance reviews we keep talking about, well, this is what
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you didn't do to make it successful instead of talking
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about here's some ideas what you can do. So feed
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forward would be one. The other is during those conversations
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to check that the goals haven't changed. A lot of
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moanizations for a lot of reasons will change the person's goals,
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sometimes without telling them, and will yeah, you know, shift
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the accountability shift it so you know, while the annual
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goal setting process gives some stability to the organization where
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it assumes stability, the reality is is that goals do change.
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So if goals change, the person has to know about it.
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What they're doing has to change, their focus has to change,
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and you know, it's impossible for the person to know
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that if you're not telling them. So at that check
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in period, check the goals are still the same, check
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that you know, something might have happened in the business
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and the company's got more aggressive. Maybe something happened, they
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got less aggressive, who knows, but let the person know.
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And the other thing is on the annual goals. Sometimes
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they're set and they're ambiguous, they're not quantify. So what
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happens is somebody, you know, people will compare notes after
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the performance reviews are over, and they both got pretty
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much the same results. But one person got a vote
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bonus at this the other person got less of a bonus,
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and they're kind of scratching their head because the individual
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bias is kicked in of the manager where the manager
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found one thing the other person wasn't doing or doesn't
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like that person, or whatever it might be. So when
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you set goals, set a range, say this is what
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we need to do. You need to do this for
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us to stay in business. And if we do exceptionally
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well on the stars at the moon wall lineup, this
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is what we're going to do. Anything between that is
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meeting expectations. You know, if you go above that, we'll
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exceed expectations. And the other thing that people make a
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mistake on is they measure behaviors about meet and exceed expectations.
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And this is sort of my you know, pet peeve
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because I keep thinking about if you're supposed to talk
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nicely to people and behave in a certain way, or
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listen to people until they finish presenting an idea without interruption,
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you're supposed to do that one hundred percent of the time.
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But yet the performance review has these five point scale
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that has meets and exceeds, meets it outstanding well in
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other words, meets as I do it eighty percent of
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the time, and I upset twenty percent of the people
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by not doing it, or is meats I do it
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one hundred percent of the time. So if I do
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it one hundred percent of time, I'm doing my job.
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So while yes, you can for quantifiable objectives that are
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easy to measure, easy to understand, you know, there can
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be a doesn't meet meets or behaviors. People have to
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get away from this meets and exceeds. You know. Sometimes
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they'll say, well, if you're doing the behaviors associated with
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another job, you exceed. Well, you're not doing the other job.
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Why are you measured on it? Because that's unfair to
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other people who are just doing their job and doing
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it excellently. So they have to stop giving this behavior
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review based on the traditional scale. And the other thing
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that is, you know, important is when they do their
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micro notes at the end of a quarterly period, they
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should document that so the person knows and at the
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end of the year, the performance review and I've done
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this with organizations take five minutes. Of course, it's not
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a review, it's just a summer eight of the previous
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four sessions where you're at. And therefore, based on that
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we set new goals, new objectives, have new projects, et cetera.
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So those are some of the things that managers need.
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Some managers are going to need a script to do this.
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They all need training, not e training, but true interactive
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training so they can actually do it with a live person,
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because there's I can do it really well in front
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of a mirror, but when I get in front of
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an audience, I don't do it so well necessarily, So
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you you know, you do it online, you answer all
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the questions, right, but you weren't in the anxiety of
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a real interaction with another human being. And so while
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you might have a tendency to do it, there's no guarantee.
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So it has to be role played. It, it has
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to be deliberate, It can't be Well, it's easy and
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it saves us money because we can do it on
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e learning. There's things like performance reviews, things like especially interviewing.
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Those things need live, live training in order to be effective.
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Yeah, why does HR.
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Or why does? Why do managers hate performance reviews so much?
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Like why are they so? Why do they avoid them?
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Like?
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What is the issue?
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Well, first of all, they have to sell the truth?
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So is it communication? And like people have hard time
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being honest?
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Yeah, people love a heart. If I'm afraid of their reaction,
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I'm afraid of they might be upset. And I don't
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want to upset them because they're working in a really
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important project and if I upset them, they're not going
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to necessarily focus. I'll be successful. There's there's I might
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cause them to argue with me. I don't want to
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get in at an argument with them. Stop asking the
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question why do you do it? You won't get an argument.
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So the problem is that managers therefore, because they don't
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tell the truth, and I sub frequently here, Well, I
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want to keep them, and I got to find a
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way of giving them a bonus. So I'll give them
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this and this so they fit the performance review to
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meet the expectation of the employee. That's why I've been
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known to say that there are two places in the
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corporate world where there's great fiction writing. One is on
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resumes and the others on performance reviews because people don't
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want to they're afraid of being honest, when in fact,
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if the person is failing as a job, if the
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person is basically has that anxiety, is unhappy, you're giving
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them a gift by being honest with them and saying
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you're not a good fit for this role. Maybe there's
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another role in the organization where you are a good fit,
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where you're not a good fit for this company because
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you have the wrong behaviors. So I'm going to give
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you a gift and say to you, you know, let's
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help you find a job somewhere where you're going to
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be happy and not here, because you're holding us back
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from being successful. Right Honestly, you know, from that point
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of view, it's a hard thing to do, especially because
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you're sitting in front of somebody and it's their livelihood
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and they've got it. They've got kids, they've got a mortgage,
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they got it. Parents that might be in a home.
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You know, God knows what and all of this is
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you in nature, if you have a heart, if you
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have some level of emotional intelligence. You're thinking about those
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as the manager, and therefore I kind of hold back
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from telling you what they need to hear. I tell
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them about what they need to hear, and I couch
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it in a way that hopefully they'll misunderstand the message,
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be happy and not retaliate.
333
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Right. It's like skirting around the issue.
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Right, And that's what a lot of managers do because
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they do lack training and how to have these conversations.
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They do lack training and how to have a it's
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more than a difficult conversation. I mean, it's real popular
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to give people training on how to have difficult conversations.
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But it's more than that. It's it's how to have
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honest conversations that are difficult.
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Mm hmm, yeah for sure.
342
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I also remember after or around performance review time, I
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was always told to never share what my bonus was
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or to never talk about that. What are your thoughts
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on that? Because in my my I thought, what I'm
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thinking is like if we were able to share what
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each employee and an organization gets, maybe would motivate more
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people to want to perform better. I don't know it
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would increase morale in my opinion, But having it secretive
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to me, I don't know.
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I don't know how I felt about that.
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Well, it might be secretive, but reality as people tell
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each other, So yeah, it's not really a secret. So
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you can pretend it's a secret. The same way that
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kids in school are told by the teacher your report
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cards between you, me and your parents, don't share it
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with anybody, and then bell rings and they're on the bus,
358
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and by the time they get to the bus, everybody
359
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in the class and knows everybody else's report card. So
360
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we're used to sharing that.
361
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If you ask your colleague, oh, what kind of bonus
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did you get, and they're like, oh, I got ten
363
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thousand dollars And they ask you and you're like, oh, I.
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Only got five.
365
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Yeah, it's like or yeah I got a bonus. The
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everside didn't get a bonus. Yeah, you know, I got
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my cola costs of living increase, and the other person says, yeah,
368
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I got that plus yeah, you know, it doesn't even
369
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have to be I have this strange view of this
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that organization at the beginning of the year budget, knowing
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that they're going to give out bonuses, knowing that that's there.
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So they've already prepared for that and they have it
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in the budget. So get rid of bonuses all together
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and pay people what they deserve. Give them the salary
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bases if the bonus is there, and if they're not
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working out, they're not performing, you know, tell them they
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don't have the right to keep their job. So they're
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going to look somewhere else, because we're going to find
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somebody who earned the right to have the job. Yeah,
380
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I would take away the whole thing. But here's the
381
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other problem with performance reviews and how people coach their
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direct reports. There are two types of motivation. There's intrinsic
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motivation and extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivation is because I want
384
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to be number one in the group, or I want
385
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.720
to get this financial benefit, or I want this, that
386
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or the other thing. And then there's intrinsic motivation. What
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00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.039
do I want to make me a better person, what's
388
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going to make me feel good? I was many years
389
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ago working with a mutual fund company that gave out
390
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to the brokers that hit a certain level. They gave
391
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out a bonus they all do every mutual fund company.
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The bonus for ninety percent of them was usually a
393
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.799
trip to Disneyland for them and their family and kids.
394
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And how many trips to Disneyland can they take? I
395
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.759
mean if they're all especially if you have young kids
396
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.720
and they start screaming and you hate it. So they
397
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.119
had a negative ripple effect. But he did something different.
398
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:07.000
They said that bonus might be ten twenty thousand, fifty
399
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:12.720
thousand dollars. You pick a charity in your community, and
400
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.759
we will come and do a whole big celebration and
401
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.880
get the local press involved, and have you give them
402
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:25.079
that check in honor of you making you know us
403
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:29.400
successful and you successful, right. And I can tell you
404
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.720
in talking with the brokers in the community, that motivated
405
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.920
them more than anything else. That was the intrinsic motivation
406
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:43.079
where they felt proud that they could help these organizations
407
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.519
instead of taking another trip to Disney or another ski
408
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:50.799
vacation the veil or whatever, or go on another cruise
409
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:55.799
or go to all inclusive resort in Hawaii. Those things
410
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:58.799
are nice, you know, and you can brag about them
411
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.559
and everybody works as oh how was it? And you
412
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.839
feel really good bragging about it make everybody else miserable.
413
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.720
It's not you know, that competition idea. I was once
414
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.720
with one of the CEOs of one of the big
415
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.759
brokerage firms with one of the banks, and we're walking
416
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:21.200
around the broker area and he said, you see that
417
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.400
brochure on that guy's desk, young man, It was a
418
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.960
brochure for rolls voices. He says, I want to make
419
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.039
sure he's in debt all the time so he's always
420
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.519
motivated to sell more. I'm encouraging him to buy a
421
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.720
whole of the race. I said to him, I said,
422
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:43.319
that's not the best way of moting him motivating him,
423
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.240
and we talked about it. It didn't change his mind
424
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because that was how he grew up in the business.
425
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.079
You know, it's about always chasing the next golden ring
426
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.119
instead of doing something good for yourself and for others.
427
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:01.319
So I think that the intrinsic and extra motivation. And
428
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:05.599
if you ask most managers what motivates somebody, what is
429
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:10.160
the intrinsic driver of that individual? Most managers have asked
430
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.400
that don't even know. They don't know those staff that will,
431
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.279
so they can't use that. So it's about sitting down
432
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:21.000
and getting to know your staff and getting to personalize
433
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:25.920
that relationship and being able to draw on their intrinsic desires,
434
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.880
not their extrinsic desires. I think that'd be a big
435
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.160
plus to change performance reviews are done.
436
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.440
There was one job that I had where we got
437
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:40.440
to choose a bonus or half fridays in the summer,
438
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.440
and I love that. I was all for the half
439
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:45.400
fridays in the summer.
440
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.279
I'm like, you can keep your money.
441
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:49.680
I want to be off work at noon on Fridays,
442
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:53.119
I can enjoy the beautiful weather because as you know
443
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.519
in Canada, here in Manitoba gets wretched cold in the winter,
444
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:01.079
so having that extra time was a and so I
445
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.440
would choose that over money any day.
446
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:05.519
So I agree.
447
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.519
I think every individual has a different motive and other
448
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.240
people took the money because they they whatever reason they
449
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.599
had for that. But I do believe everyone should be
450
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.960
treated individually in terms of motivating.
451
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.119
Yeah, why is it intrinsic motivator for one? Is you
452
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.680
going to be different for another person? But everybody is
453
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.559
driven because they feel good about themselves. They feel that
454
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.640
and that's part of like why am I producing for
455
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.880
this company? I feel good about the goals I'm achieving.
456
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.880
I feel good about the contribution I'm making to the
457
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:43.000
success of the company. Those are all intrinsic drivers that
458
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.759
when you play on those, you create a positive employee experience,
459
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.279
which leads to people wanting to do more. But you know,
460
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.119
once I get that new car, once I get that trip,
461
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.839
then you know I'm driving for the next one. So
462
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.960
and I'm never going to be happy. I'm always going
463
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.079
to be like, I'm always working towards something I can't
464
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.480
achieve because the price keeps getting moved on me. It's
465
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:18.000
that moving target you can't hit. But people motivates people,
466
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.400
it doesn't I don't think it does anyhow.
467
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:27.000
Yeah, so I mean, how do we make changes? Like,
468
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.319
what are some changes that companies can make to improve
469
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:35.559
their conversations. I also remember one time getting a performance
470
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:38.559
review from someone I didn't even report to, and I
471
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.160
was so confused by that because I was like, you
472
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.240
don't even know the work that I'm doing. We don't
473
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:45.640
work together at all, and I don't know. I found
474
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.039
that interesting as well.
475
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.440
Yeah, I think that we have to stop treating performance
476
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:58.599
reviews as a year end summary and verdict. It's like
477
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.039
the jury coming out with its you know, have you
478
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:02.960
reached a verdict?
479
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.880
What's the verdict comments, and everyone goes, oh my god.
480
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:13.039
I think that people have to be have these continuous
481
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.359
conversations for improvement. That they have to have the chickens
482
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:22.400
on a regular basis, feed forward instead of feedback, keep
483
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.279
the eye on success, so they work for success. They
484
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.599
don't work for Okay, I can't do that because my
485
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.119
boss doesn't like it. But I'm going to do this
486
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.559
because I want to do this. So they have to
487
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:41.240
have real conversations about ideas and suggestions that are going
488
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.400
to make them successful. They should be. So the year
489
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.559
end is not a verdict. It's simply a summary of
490
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:56.160
the conversations combined with how you did against your goals,
491
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:01.200
how you behaved during the year. But that's been discussed
492
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:05.640
all year. Adjustments have been made according to the changing
493
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.640
goals or the moving targets, and therefore it would not
494
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.440
be a surprise. So, you know, instead of catching people
495
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.799
doing something wrong, try to catch people doing something right.
496
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:25.000
And as a result of that, we focus on what
497
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:32.200
makes people move towards accountability, towards ownership, and towards pride
498
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:32.599
in the work.
499
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.799
They're doing, and the only way people are going to
500
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:42.720
take responsibility is if the leaders are taking responsibility and
501
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:45.960
showing integrity and doing what they say.
502
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.680
Yeah, it's interesting to say that because one of the
503
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.799
areas I work in is is accountability and commitment, and
504
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.640
people always managers always complained, how can my staff was
505
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.960
not taking accountability? And I laugh and say when I
506
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.519
talk to the staff, they're saying, why does the manager
507
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.000
take accountability? And if they don't take accountability, why do
508
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:16.880
they want me to take accountability? So that's one thing.
509
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.160
The other thing on these performance reviews that are really
510
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.880
has become popular, which is sad, is three sixty feedback.
511
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:31.839
Multi source feedback has become part of many performance reviews,
512
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.119
which is sort of a lazy way out for managers
513
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:41.359
because they see how their peers, their direct reports see
514
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.720
this person and it might be different than how they
515
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:49.640
see the person. If the person is not liked, they
516
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.000
can collude to give them a bad review. There's so
517
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.039
many things. Three point sixty is design for development only.
518
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:03.599
It's not designed in a way that is to give
519
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:08.400
person a performance review because the way they were behaving
520
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.920
four months ago when that was taken. If the managers
521
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.279
doing their job right, the person is improving can be
522
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:21.960
completely different today than it was then. So yes, managers
523
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:26.160
can very well during this process of finding how do
524
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.160
I get them to focus on the right behaviors? Talk
525
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:33.200
to their peers, find out, you know, what is happening,
526
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:38.720
and then work with them towards the desired behavior. But
527
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.880
to take this, you know, three sixty is a point
528
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:48.839
in time and it's not a progress review because it's
529
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.480
not done frequently enough, and it's once a year, and
530
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.599
there's so many other conditions that are involved in it
531
00:33:56.279 --> 00:34:01.200
that it just isn't right that they become part of
532
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.279
performance reviews. But when some of these consulting firms or
533
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:11.719
firms that do these three sixty tell organizations with great
534
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.519
enthusiasm that three sixty is a great way of doing
535
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:20.400
performance reviews, organizations believe it and they do it when
536
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:26.320
in fact, the research shows and reality shows three sixty
537
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:28.480
should not be part of a performance review.
538
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.400
Remind everybody does briefly what three sixty means. We did
539
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.239
an episode on this prior, so people can go back
540
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:38.679
and listen to that episode, But just briefly.
541
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:42.360
Three sixty is basically a full circle view of how
542
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.480
you're doing by the people that you do it with.
543
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.400
So it's feedback from your boss, it's feedback from your peers.
544
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.119
You do a self analysis, your direct reports if you
545
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:59.519
have them, your customers or suppliers, internal or external. If
546
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.199
you have so, you get a full circle view of
547
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.639
on a certain set of behaviors, how you're doing.
548
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:09.800
Okay, perfect.
549
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:13.400
So tell us more about what you do, David.
550
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:21.079
What do I do? I work with organizations in the
551
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:25.719
area of behaviors. I work with organizations and helping them
552
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:31.320
define the understand their authentic culture, what makes them successful,
553
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.519
and what are the values or the foundation for that
554
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:39.159
the behaviors that drive those values, because it's the behaviors
555
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.360
that need to be defined. I work with integrating that
556
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:51.960
and behaviors within jobs into selection, hiring, behavioral interviewing. My
557
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:58.000
book Selecting the Best is you know right, there is
558
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:04.039
about how to do that successfully. As we're talking about
559
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.519
how to integrate this discussion of behaviors and outcomes into
560
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:14.920
performance reviews, how to integrate it into succession planning, leadership
561
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.920
development about behaviors. That's the kind of stuff I do,
562
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:25.480
and I've written three books that one of them is
563
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.079
That's a new one. I also do conferences speaking conferences.
564
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.519
I'll be speaking this year at the Shirm Talent on
565
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:39.639
my related to my book in Dallas, and I'm also
566
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:45.119
doing a pre conference at Sherm Annual in Orlando on
567
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.000
the employee experience and why the employee experience drives success
568
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:52.719
and drives the employee engagement.
569
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:54.719
Amazing.
570
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:56.920
Well, thank you so much for being here today and
571
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:01.920
for chatting all things performance reviews, any last minute thoughts
572
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.880
or advice for anyone listening.
573
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:09.880
Yeah, make the performance a continue us improvement process. Focus
574
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:13.840
on people's what they can do to be successful. Don't
575
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:17.599
focus on what they didn't do, and don't ask them
576
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:19.840
why they did what they weren't supposed to do, which
577
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:23.000
makes them defensive. You know, leave the word why for
578
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.480
your behavioral interviews and take them out of your performance
579
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:32.079
reviews and make it a process where you understand what
580
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:37.320
are the intrinsic motivators of people and build off those intrinsics.
581
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.960
Like you said, give them that day off, which is
582
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.159
more value than you know, a five hundred dollars bonus.
583
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.719
So those are the kinds of things. Focus on success
584
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.559
and focus on helping people feel pride in the work
585
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:54.960
they do.
586
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:00.400
Thank you so much for this forward thinking conversation, forward
587
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.679
to the next one, Yes so, and thank you to
588
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.760
our audience for tuning in. We will have David's website
589
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:09.519
in the show notes so you can check out more
590
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:13.599
of his work and links to his books, which includes
591
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:16.199
selecting the best, which you can see behind my shoulder
592
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:19.360
here on the shelf. So until next time, take care
593
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.079
of everybody.
1
00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:07.000
The performance reviews are dreaded by your employees, avoided by managers,
2
00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:11.199
are only completed when HR chases people down, but companies
3
00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:12.679
still insist that they matter.
4
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:14.560
What is really happening?
5
00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:18.359
Have you ever left a performance review thinking that was
6
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.320
such a wasted time? Then this conversation is for you.
7
00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.079
David Cohen is back. He's a business leader and founder
8
00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.559
of DS Cohen and Associates. And by the end of
9
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:32.000
this episode, you're going to learn why traditional performance reviews
10
00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:35.280
feel disconnected from real work. You're going to learn why
11
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.880
they persist even when everyone knows that they're flawed, and
12
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:41.880
you're going to learn practical changes you can implement now
13
00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:46.159
to make your current system stronger, more human, and more effective.
14
00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.920
So if you care about the performance review and you
15
00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:53.280
want to know more, stick around because we are going
16
00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.560
to tell you all the things. So David, welcome, Let's
17
00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:57.439
jump right in.
18
00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:02.719
This is a hot topic. Let's hopefully help some people out.
19
00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.920
I'm excited, you're getting fired up, So tell us about
20
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.680
why are performance reviews so universally dreaded by both managers employees.
21
00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.840
I remember I hated them. I would look forward to it,
22
00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.799
but I always left disappointed. I don't know, there's just
23
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:18.239
a lot.
24
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:21.079
There's a lot going on. I think that some of
25
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:26.239
the reasons are the ratings sometimes are not clear, they're
26
00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.400
moving targets, so people, you know, get surprised. I think that,
27
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:35.680
you know, surprises the enemy of people's feeling confident, So
28
00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:41.200
it generates a lot of anxiety. Or managers just have
29
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:43.760
a recency effect and they only remember what you did
30
00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.799
for them last week and they forget the other things.
31
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.280
And if it's a negative thing you forgot, then you
32
00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:57.359
get really defensive. And therefore, you know, the conversation is
33
00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:02.359
a is A is a time bombay to happen. And
34
00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:12.479
if the process you know, reliably triggers fear, people you know,
35
00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:18.879
optimize sort of self protection and not performance. So they're
36
00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:23.759
not really about performance reviews. They are about answering that
37
00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.039
question why. So as soon as as soon as a
38
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:32.719
manager asked the question why about something that happened and
39
00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:39.199
what happened wasn't positive necessarily, then it's about catching people
40
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:41.919
doing something wrong, and people get really defensive and it
41
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.560
raises anxiety. So people really don't want to get involved
42
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:46.879
with it.
43
00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.719
So what emotions do reviews britt usually trigger.
44
00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.759
Well, the emotions. The first quote which I said, that
45
00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.599
question of why do you do something originally triggers it.
46
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:04.240
The other thing that triggers it is that the people
47
00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:06.879
have had no review. I don't have time for this.
48
00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.560
Managers will set up a review and then they'll delay
49
00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:14.680
it because something came up. And the message, whether intended
50
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.639
or not, is my direct report really doesn't count. Something
51
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.800
else counts, and if something else counts, I don't count. Therefore,
52
00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.680
why should I be engaged? Why should I be committed?
53
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.439
Why should I be held accountable if my manager is
54
00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.759
not held accountable to talk to me on time. So
55
00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:35.680
there becomes a whole series of a sort of a
56
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:41.560
drain circling the you know, spiral circling the drain, and
57
00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:43.719
people just don't feel good about it.
58
00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.919
Yeah, I think some people treat it as like like
59
00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.280
in my past anything a personal experience. I remember I
60
00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:57.319
was working on a law firm and the owner he
61
00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.199
was doing the performance reviews, but he wasn't my direct report.
62
00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.879
And I walked in and he said, you took a
63
00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.240
long lunch one time, and that was like all he
64
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:06.960
said to me. And I was like, what, like that
65
00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.840
was my performance review? And I was like so you're
66
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.360
sitting here and you're pulling on the one one thing
67
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.759
that I.
68
00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:16.839
Don't even know what it was I did wrong.
69
00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:19.839
I guess are against the rules, but there was nothing
70
00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:21.680
to do with what I did right. There's nothing to
71
00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:23.439
do with the work that I was doing. It was
72
00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.000
like completely unrelated to my actual job position.
73
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:29.519
Is that normal?
74
00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:36.000
Unfortunately, historically it has been that people will find things
75
00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.480
that are not related, and I think that's one of
76
00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:43.000
the big problems. People put everything in the kitchen sink
77
00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.240
in the performance review, even if it's not job related.
78
00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:50.879
You know, it's really interesting. I didn't exercise once where
79
00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.920
I divided the group in half and I told the
80
00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:57.360
one group that they were the salespeople going in for
81
00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.959
the performance review. But they've been late a few ti
82
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.560
times that they're not producing the work they're supposed to produce.
83
00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:07.319
But this time you're late, and the reason you're late
84
00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:10.240
is that you stopped on the highway and you saved
85
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:14.639
the child's life by doing something that was Then the
86
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.959
managers we told the person's been late, he's not hitting numbers,
87
00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.399
and you're under pressure, so you got to read them
88
00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.439
the riot Act. If you don't let them or let
89
00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:32.639
him go. So the biggest mistake is nobody inquired like
90
00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.319
why the person was late, so they just started to
91
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:40.920
attack them instead of opening in a conversation. And when
92
00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.680
they found out when the person finally said, you know,
93
00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.959
told them about the highways story, they usually felt pretty
94
00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:51.839
bad about attacking them. So the whole performance review process
95
00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:58.000
is this dance that nobody wants to attend, and so
96
00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.519
they're hoping they don't get picked to day, but you
97
00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.920
got to show up, and if it was something which
98
00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.040
was flowed and was natural, hr wouldn't have to be
99
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.600
the bad guys that are always chasing after managers to
100
00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:18.319
have them completed on time. And the other thing is
101
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.399
is that we always people look up the organization for
102
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:24.920
the see the behaviors the boss is doing, so they
103
00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.439
emulate those behaviors. So if their boss doesn't do it,
104
00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.519
then they figure, well, why should I do it with
105
00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:37.680
my direct reports Because traditionally most of it is it
106
00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:40.839
feels like an ambush. You know, during the year, you
107
00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:46.040
might have done these things that weren't necessarily successful, but
108
00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.759
the manager didn't have the courage or felt they didn't
109
00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:51.639
have the time to talk to you about it. So
110
00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.240
all of a sudden at the year's end, they pull
111
00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.319
out their draw full of these notes about everything you
112
00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.399
did wrong, and so you feel like it's a year
113
00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.360
end ambush. Well, no, only wants to be ambushed. So
114
00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:10.240
they find that it's really not healthy when people are
115
00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.959
have high anxiety because productivity goes down, retention becomes an issue,
116
00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:21.000
the employee experiences negative there's a lot of ripple effects
117
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:23.720
with performance reviews.
118
00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.920
Yeah, absolutely, I mean so, I guess my question then
119
00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:32.680
is how do you modernize a performance review or make
120
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:33.879
them effective?
121
00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:36.120
Like what are some ways to do that?
122
00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.600
Because I remember, like another time where another performance review
123
00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:45.160
started with that person opening a drawer and pulling out
124
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:48.240
like a notebook and saying, this is your name and
125
00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:49.600
this is all my notes about you.
126
00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:50.959
And I was like, all.
127
00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:54.600
Right, And I mean it is terrifying. Like your job
128
00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.680
is essentially on the line, your raise is on the line.
129
00:07:57.839 --> 00:07:59.839
It's like if I did well in that review, I
130
00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:04.000
get a raise, right, So when it's related to your
131
00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:06.879
livelihood and like what you're putting effort in, it is
132
00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:12.600
really anxiety causing. Right, So how do you modernize performance reviews?
133
00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:16.319
Well, you hit upon a couple of interesting points. The
134
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:19.399
first one is one of the reasons they don't work
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is because they are tied to compensation and the arch
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tides raises. So the first thing is to separate from that.
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Now everybody says they can't do that, but there are
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ways of doing that. And you know, I was once
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working with the company and I said to the head
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of HR and the CEO, I said, we've got this
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great process going, but separate the compensation discussion. Make it
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six months separated from the performance review annual review, so
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they don't see the compensations directly related to how they're doing.
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So they have the freedom to do the good job
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and not get anxious about it. Because once you get
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a boat his year after year, it's kind of a
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fixed thing and you expect it and if you don't
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get it, you didn't know you weren't going to get it.
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That really becomes anxious because most people spend it before
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they have it. So I said, separate it. They didn't
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for various reasons. He then went off to one of
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the major schools to get in a executive MBA in
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talent management and he came back and he laughed, and
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I said why. He said, I did the case study
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on our performance review and I got in ninety five.
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When I asked the professor, why did I get a hundred?
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What was missing? What was the missing point? He said,
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you should have separated the performance reviews from compensation. Oh so,
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he said, I knew in theory that's a great idea,
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but in reality it doesn't work. But there are organizations
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that have separated. And you know it's that bonus is
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a big deal to people. Even though it's part of
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their annual they see it as part of their annual salary,
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so they kind of plan for it, especially if they
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don't work too hard to get their results. So it's
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something which I believe has to be rethought. That's one
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thing that has to be rethought. The other thing is,
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as we said, it's I'm going to catch you by
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surprise when I talk to you, or I only talk
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to you if I do something wrong. If I only
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talk to you when I do something wrong. That anxiety,
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that anticipation of you know, you caught me doing something wrong,
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it's going to create that defensiveness, that anxiety. So how
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do you change that? Is you convert feedback to feed forward.
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What do I mean by that, Well, that is instead
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of talking about what you did wrong, talk about what
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you can do to be successful. So the conversation doesn't
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take too long. It takes like ten minutes, maybe even less.
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And it's how are you doing? You know, are you
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making progress? What help do you need? Where are your obstacles?
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What's the things that I can do to help you
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be successful? And say, you know, going forward, here's some ideas,
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here's some suggestions, and give the individual the autonomy to
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take the action the way they want and then follow
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up with them how is it going? So if they
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were check ins every ninety days for ten minutes with people,
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unless check ins are documented and you see the people
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through you helping them. The other thing that I think
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is managers feel that they have to rely on themselves
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to do coaching. And usually there's people on the team
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that are masters away what they do. They're great at
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what they do. What's wrong with acknowledging that by saying
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to a direct report, you know, you know, Sally has
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been really good at this, She's been doing this, she's
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surprising everybody. She's doing a great job. What I want
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to do is hook you up with Sally so she
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can help you be successful. Now, if you think about it,
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it's kind of like, you know, the Olympic athlete. When
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the Olympic actively trains, they visualize success, they don't visualize failure.
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So they're always thinking forward and they're always saying what
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can I do differently to be successful? But yet in
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performance reviews we keep talking about, well, this is what
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you didn't do to make it successful instead of talking
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about here's some ideas what you can do. So feed
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forward would be one. The other is during those conversations
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to check that the goals haven't changed. A lot of
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moanizations for a lot of reasons will change the person's goals,
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sometimes without telling them, and will yeah, you know, shift
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the accountability shift it so you know, while the annual
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goal setting process gives some stability to the organization where
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it assumes stability, the reality is is that goals do change.
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So if goals change, the person has to know about it.
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What they're doing has to change, their focus has to change,
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and you know, it's impossible for the person to know
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that if you're not telling them. So at that check
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in period, check the goals are still the same, check
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that you know, something might have happened in the business
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and the company's got more aggressive. Maybe something happened, they
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got less aggressive, who knows, but let the person know.
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And the other thing is on the annual goals. Sometimes
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they're set and they're ambiguous, they're not quantify. So what
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happens is somebody, you know, people will compare notes after
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the performance reviews are over, and they both got pretty
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much the same results. But one person got a vote
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bonus at this the other person got less of a bonus,
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and they're kind of scratching their head because the individual
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bias is kicked in of the manager where the manager
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found one thing the other person wasn't doing or doesn't
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like that person, or whatever it might be. So when
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you set goals, set a range, say this is what
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we need to do. You need to do this for
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us to stay in business. And if we do exceptionally
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well on the stars at the moon wall lineup, this
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is what we're going to do. Anything between that is
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meeting expectations. You know, if you go above that, we'll
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exceed expectations. And the other thing that people make a
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mistake on is they measure behaviors about meet and exceed expectations.
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And this is sort of my you know, pet peeve
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because I keep thinking about if you're supposed to talk
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nicely to people and behave in a certain way, or
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listen to people until they finish presenting an idea without interruption,
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you're supposed to do that one hundred percent of the time.
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But yet the performance review has these five point scale
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that has meets and exceeds, meets it outstanding well in
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other words, meets as I do it eighty percent of
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the time, and I upset twenty percent of the people
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by not doing it, or is meats I do it
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one hundred percent of the time. So if I do
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it one hundred percent of time, I'm doing my job.
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So while yes, you can for quantifiable objectives that are
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easy to measure, easy to understand, you know, there can
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be a doesn't meet meets or behaviors. People have to
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get away from this meets and exceeds. You know. Sometimes
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they'll say, well, if you're doing the behaviors associated with
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another job, you exceed. Well, you're not doing the other job.
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Why are you measured on it? Because that's unfair to
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other people who are just doing their job and doing
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it excellently. So they have to stop giving this behavior
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review based on the traditional scale. And the other thing
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that is, you know, important is when they do their
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micro notes at the end of a quarterly period, they
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should document that so the person knows and at the
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end of the year, the performance review and I've done
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this with organizations take five minutes. Of course, it's not
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a review, it's just a summer eight of the previous
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four sessions where you're at. And therefore, based on that
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we set new goals, new objectives, have new projects, et cetera.
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So those are some of the things that managers need.
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Some managers are going to need a script to do this.
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They all need training, not e training, but true interactive
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training so they can actually do it with a live person,
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because there's I can do it really well in front
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of a mirror, but when I get in front of
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an audience, I don't do it so well necessarily, So
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you you know, you do it online, you answer all
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the questions, right, but you weren't in the anxiety of
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a real interaction with another human being. And so while
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you might have a tendency to do it, there's no guarantee.
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So it has to be role played. It, it has
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to be deliberate, It can't be Well, it's easy and
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it saves us money because we can do it on
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e learning. There's things like performance reviews, things like especially interviewing.
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Those things need live, live training in order to be effective.
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Yeah, why does HR.
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Or why does? Why do managers hate performance reviews so much?
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Like why are they so? Why do they avoid them?
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Like?
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What is the issue?
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Well, first of all, they have to sell the truth?
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So is it communication? And like people have hard time
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being honest?
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Yeah, people love a heart. If I'm afraid of their reaction,
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I'm afraid of they might be upset. And I don't
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want to upset them because they're working in a really
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important project and if I upset them, they're not going
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to necessarily focus. I'll be successful. There's there's I might
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cause them to argue with me. I don't want to
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get in at an argument with them. Stop asking the
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question why do you do it? You won't get an argument.
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So the problem is that managers therefore, because they don't
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tell the truth, and I sub frequently here, Well, I
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want to keep them, and I got to find a
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way of giving them a bonus. So I'll give them
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this and this so they fit the performance review to
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meet the expectation of the employee. That's why I've been
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known to say that there are two places in the
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corporate world where there's great fiction writing. One is on
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resumes and the others on performance reviews because people don't
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want to they're afraid of being honest, when in fact,
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if the person is failing as a job, if the
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person is basically has that anxiety, is unhappy, you're giving
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them a gift by being honest with them and saying
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you're not a good fit for this role. Maybe there's
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another role in the organization where you are a good fit,
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where you're not a good fit for this company because
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you have the wrong behaviors. So I'm going to give
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you a gift and say to you, you know, let's
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help you find a job somewhere where you're going to
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be happy and not here, because you're holding us back
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from being successful. Right Honestly, you know, from that point
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of view, it's a hard thing to do, especially because
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you're sitting in front of somebody and it's their livelihood
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and they've got it. They've got kids, they've got a mortgage,
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they got it. Parents that might be in a home.
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You know, God knows what and all of this is
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you in nature, if you have a heart, if you
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have some level of emotional intelligence. You're thinking about those
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as the manager, and therefore I kind of hold back
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from telling you what they need to hear. I tell
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them about what they need to hear, and I couch
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it in a way that hopefully they'll misunderstand the message,
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be happy and not retaliate.
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Right. It's like skirting around the issue.
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Right, And that's what a lot of managers do because
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they do lack training and how to have these conversations.
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They do lack training and how to have a it's
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more than a difficult conversation. I mean, it's real popular
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to give people training on how to have difficult conversations.
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But it's more than that. It's it's how to have
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honest conversations that are difficult.
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Mm hmm, yeah for sure.
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I also remember after or around performance review time, I
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was always told to never share what my bonus was
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or to never talk about that. What are your thoughts
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on that? Because in my my I thought, what I'm
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thinking is like if we were able to share what
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each employee and an organization gets, maybe would motivate more
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people to want to perform better. I don't know it
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would increase morale in my opinion, But having it secretive
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to me, I don't know.
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I don't know how I felt about that.
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Well, it might be secretive, but reality as people tell
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each other, So yeah, it's not really a secret. So
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you can pretend it's a secret. The same way that
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kids in school are told by the teacher your report
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cards between you, me and your parents, don't share it
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with anybody, and then bell rings and they're on the bus,
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and by the time they get to the bus, everybody
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in the class and knows everybody else's report card. So
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we're used to sharing that.
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If you ask your colleague, oh, what kind of bonus
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did you get, and they're like, oh, I got ten
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thousand dollars And they ask you and you're like, oh, I.
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Only got five.
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Yeah, it's like or yeah I got a bonus. The
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everside didn't get a bonus. Yeah, you know, I got
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my cola costs of living increase, and the other person says, yeah,
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I got that plus yeah, you know, it doesn't even
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have to be I have this strange view of this
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that organization at the beginning of the year budget, knowing
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that they're going to give out bonuses, knowing that that's there.
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So they've already prepared for that and they have it
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in the budget. So get rid of bonuses all together
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and pay people what they deserve. Give them the salary
375
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bases if the bonus is there, and if they're not
376
00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.240
working out, they're not performing, you know, tell them they
377
00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.960
don't have the right to keep their job. So they're
378
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.119
going to look somewhere else, because we're going to find
379
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.359
somebody who earned the right to have the job. Yeah,
380
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:52.200
I would take away the whole thing. But here's the
381
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.920
other problem with performance reviews and how people coach their
382
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.839
direct reports. There are two types of motivation. There's intrinsic
383
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:08.799
motivation and extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivation is because I want
384
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:13.039
to be number one in the group, or I want
385
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.720
to get this financial benefit, or I want this, that
386
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:22.240
or the other thing. And then there's intrinsic motivation. What
387
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.039
do I want to make me a better person, what's
388
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:28.000
going to make me feel good? I was many years
389
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:32.799
ago working with a mutual fund company that gave out
390
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.119
to the brokers that hit a certain level. They gave
391
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.480
out a bonus they all do every mutual fund company.
392
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.640
The bonus for ninety percent of them was usually a
393
00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.799
trip to Disneyland for them and their family and kids.
394
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.559
And how many trips to Disneyland can they take? I
395
00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.759
mean if they're all especially if you have young kids
396
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.720
and they start screaming and you hate it. So they
397
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:01.119
had a negative ripple effect. But he did something different.
398
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:07.000
They said that bonus might be ten twenty thousand, fifty
399
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:12.720
thousand dollars. You pick a charity in your community, and
400
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.759
we will come and do a whole big celebration and
401
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:18.880
get the local press involved, and have you give them
402
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:25.079
that check in honor of you making you know us
403
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:29.400
successful and you successful, right. And I can tell you
404
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:33.720
in talking with the brokers in the community, that motivated
405
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.920
them more than anything else. That was the intrinsic motivation
406
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:43.079
where they felt proud that they could help these organizations
407
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:46.519
instead of taking another trip to Disney or another ski
408
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:50.799
vacation the veil or whatever, or go on another cruise
409
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:55.799
or go to all inclusive resort in Hawaii. Those things
410
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:58.799
are nice, you know, and you can brag about them
411
00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.559
and everybody works as oh how was it? And you
412
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.839
feel really good bragging about it make everybody else miserable.
413
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.720
It's not you know, that competition idea. I was once
414
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.720
with one of the CEOs of one of the big
415
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.759
brokerage firms with one of the banks, and we're walking
416
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:21.200
around the broker area and he said, you see that
417
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.400
brochure on that guy's desk, young man, It was a
418
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:27.960
brochure for rolls voices. He says, I want to make
419
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.039
sure he's in debt all the time so he's always
420
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.519
motivated to sell more. I'm encouraging him to buy a
421
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.720
whole of the race. I said to him, I said,
422
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:43.319
that's not the best way of moting him motivating him,
423
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:46.240
and we talked about it. It didn't change his mind
424
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.279
because that was how he grew up in the business.
425
00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.079
You know, it's about always chasing the next golden ring
426
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.119
instead of doing something good for yourself and for others.
427
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:01.319
So I think that the intrinsic and extra motivation. And
428
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:05.599
if you ask most managers what motivates somebody, what is
429
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:10.160
the intrinsic driver of that individual? Most managers have asked
430
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.400
that don't even know. They don't know those staff that will,
431
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.279
so they can't use that. So it's about sitting down
432
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:21.000
and getting to know your staff and getting to personalize
433
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:25.920
that relationship and being able to draw on their intrinsic desires,
434
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.880
not their extrinsic desires. I think that'd be a big
435
00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:32.160
plus to change performance reviews are done.
436
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.440
There was one job that I had where we got
437
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:40.440
to choose a bonus or half fridays in the summer,
438
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.440
and I love that. I was all for the half
439
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:45.400
fridays in the summer.
440
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:47.279
I'm like, you can keep your money.
441
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:49.680
I want to be off work at noon on Fridays,
442
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:53.119
I can enjoy the beautiful weather because as you know
443
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.519
in Canada, here in Manitoba gets wretched cold in the winter,
444
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:01.079
so having that extra time was a and so I
445
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.440
would choose that over money any day.
446
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:05.519
So I agree.
447
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.519
I think every individual has a different motive and other
448
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.240
people took the money because they they whatever reason they
449
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.599
had for that. But I do believe everyone should be
450
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.960
treated individually in terms of motivating.
451
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.119
Yeah, why is it intrinsic motivator for one? Is you
452
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.680
going to be different for another person? But everybody is
453
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.559
driven because they feel good about themselves. They feel that
454
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.640
and that's part of like why am I producing for
455
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.880
this company? I feel good about the goals I'm achieving.
456
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.880
I feel good about the contribution I'm making to the
457
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:43.000
success of the company. Those are all intrinsic drivers that
458
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.759
when you play on those, you create a positive employee experience,
459
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.279
which leads to people wanting to do more. But you know,
460
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.119
once I get that new car, once I get that trip,
461
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:01.839
then you know I'm driving for the next one. So
462
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.960
and I'm never going to be happy. I'm always going
463
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.079
to be like, I'm always working towards something I can't
464
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:13.480
achieve because the price keeps getting moved on me. It's
465
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:18.000
that moving target you can't hit. But people motivates people,
466
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:20.400
it doesn't I don't think it does anyhow.
467
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:27.000
Yeah, so I mean, how do we make changes? Like,
468
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.319
what are some changes that companies can make to improve
469
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:35.559
their conversations. I also remember one time getting a performance
470
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:38.559
review from someone I didn't even report to, and I
471
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.160
was so confused by that because I was like, you
472
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.240
don't even know the work that I'm doing. We don't
473
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:45.640
work together at all, and I don't know. I found
474
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.039
that interesting as well.
475
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.440
Yeah, I think that we have to stop treating performance
476
00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:58.599
reviews as a year end summary and verdict. It's like
477
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.039
the jury coming out with its you know, have you
478
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:02.960
reached a verdict?
479
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:06.880
What's the verdict comments, and everyone goes, oh my god.
480
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:13.039
I think that people have to be have these continuous
481
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.359
conversations for improvement. That they have to have the chickens
482
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:22.400
on a regular basis, feed forward instead of feedback, keep
483
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.279
the eye on success, so they work for success. They
484
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.599
don't work for Okay, I can't do that because my
485
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:32.119
boss doesn't like it. But I'm going to do this
486
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.559
because I want to do this. So they have to
487
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:41.240
have real conversations about ideas and suggestions that are going
488
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.400
to make them successful. They should be. So the year
489
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.559
end is not a verdict. It's simply a summary of
490
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:56.160
the conversations combined with how you did against your goals,
491
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:01.200
how you behaved during the year. But that's been discussed
492
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:05.640
all year. Adjustments have been made according to the changing
493
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.640
goals or the moving targets, and therefore it would not
494
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.440
be a surprise. So, you know, instead of catching people
495
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.799
doing something wrong, try to catch people doing something right.
496
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:25.000
And as a result of that, we focus on what
497
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:32.200
makes people move towards accountability, towards ownership, and towards pride
498
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:32.599
in the work.
499
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.799
They're doing, and the only way people are going to
500
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:42.720
take responsibility is if the leaders are taking responsibility and
501
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:45.960
showing integrity and doing what they say.
502
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:50.680
Yeah, it's interesting to say that because one of the
503
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.799
areas I work in is is accountability and commitment, and
504
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.640
people always managers always complained, how can my staff was
505
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.960
not taking accountability? And I laugh and say when I
506
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.519
talk to the staff, they're saying, why does the manager
507
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.000
take accountability? And if they don't take accountability, why do
508
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:16.880
they want me to take accountability? So that's one thing.
509
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.160
The other thing on these performance reviews that are really
510
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:26.880
has become popular, which is sad, is three sixty feedback.
511
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:31.839
Multi source feedback has become part of many performance reviews,
512
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.119
which is sort of a lazy way out for managers
513
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:41.359
because they see how their peers, their direct reports see
514
00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.720
this person and it might be different than how they
515
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:49.640
see the person. If the person is not liked, they
516
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.000
can collude to give them a bad review. There's so
517
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:59.039
many things. Three point sixty is design for development only.
518
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:03.599
It's not designed in a way that is to give
519
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:08.400
person a performance review because the way they were behaving
520
00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.920
four months ago when that was taken. If the managers
521
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.279
doing their job right, the person is improving can be
522
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:21.960
completely different today than it was then. So yes, managers
523
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:26.160
can very well during this process of finding how do
524
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:29.160
I get them to focus on the right behaviors? Talk
525
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:33.200
to their peers, find out, you know, what is happening,
526
00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:38.720
and then work with them towards the desired behavior. But
527
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.880
to take this, you know, three sixty is a point
528
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:48.839
in time and it's not a progress review because it's
529
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.480
not done frequently enough, and it's once a year, and
530
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.599
there's so many other conditions that are involved in it
531
00:33:56.279 --> 00:34:01.200
that it just isn't right that they become part of
532
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.279
performance reviews. But when some of these consulting firms or
533
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:11.719
firms that do these three sixty tell organizations with great
534
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.519
enthusiasm that three sixty is a great way of doing
535
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:20.400
performance reviews, organizations believe it and they do it when
536
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:26.320
in fact, the research shows and reality shows three sixty
537
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:28.480
should not be part of a performance review.
538
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.400
Remind everybody does briefly what three sixty means. We did
539
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.239
an episode on this prior, so people can go back
540
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:38.679
and listen to that episode, But just briefly.
541
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:42.360
Three sixty is basically a full circle view of how
542
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.480
you're doing by the people that you do it with.
543
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:48.400
So it's feedback from your boss, it's feedback from your peers.
544
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.119
You do a self analysis, your direct reports if you
545
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:59.519
have them, your customers or suppliers, internal or external. If
546
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.199
you have so, you get a full circle view of
547
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.639
on a certain set of behaviors, how you're doing.
548
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:09.800
Okay, perfect.
549
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:13.400
So tell us more about what you do, David.
550
00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:21.079
What do I do? I work with organizations in the
551
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:25.719
area of behaviors. I work with organizations and helping them
552
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:31.320
define the understand their authentic culture, what makes them successful,
553
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.519
and what are the values or the foundation for that
554
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:39.159
the behaviors that drive those values, because it's the behaviors
555
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.360
that need to be defined. I work with integrating that
556
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:51.960
and behaviors within jobs into selection, hiring, behavioral interviewing. My
557
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:58.000
book Selecting the Best is you know right, there is
558
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:04.039
about how to do that successfully. As we're talking about
559
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.519
how to integrate this discussion of behaviors and outcomes into
560
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:14.920
performance reviews, how to integrate it into succession planning, leadership
561
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.920
development about behaviors. That's the kind of stuff I do,
562
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:25.480
and I've written three books that one of them is
563
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.079
That's a new one. I also do conferences speaking conferences.
564
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.519
I'll be speaking this year at the Shirm Talent on
565
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:39.639
my related to my book in Dallas, and I'm also
566
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:45.119
doing a pre conference at Sherm Annual in Orlando on
567
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.000
the employee experience and why the employee experience drives success
568
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:52.719
and drives the employee engagement.
569
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:54.719
Amazing.
570
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:56.920
Well, thank you so much for being here today and
571
00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:01.920
for chatting all things performance reviews, any last minute thoughts
572
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.880
or advice for anyone listening.
573
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:09.880
Yeah, make the performance a continue us improvement process. Focus
574
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:13.840
on people's what they can do to be successful. Don't
575
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:17.599
focus on what they didn't do, and don't ask them
576
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:19.840
why they did what they weren't supposed to do, which
577
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:23.000
makes them defensive. You know, leave the word why for
578
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.480
your behavioral interviews and take them out of your performance
579
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:32.079
reviews and make it a process where you understand what
580
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:37.320
are the intrinsic motivators of people and build off those intrinsics.
581
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.960
Like you said, give them that day off, which is
582
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.159
more value than you know, a five hundred dollars bonus.
583
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.719
So those are the kinds of things. Focus on success
584
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:54.559
and focus on helping people feel pride in the work
585
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:54.960
they do.
586
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:00.400
Thank you so much for this forward thinking conversation, forward
587
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.679
to the next one, Yes so, and thank you to
588
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.760
our audience for tuning in. We will have David's website
589
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:09.519
in the show notes so you can check out more
590
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:13.599
of his work and links to his books, which includes
591
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:16.199
selecting the best, which you can see behind my shoulder
592
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:19.360
here on the shelf. So until next time, take care
593
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.079
of everybody.
