WEBVTT
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This is Barbara Jean Walsh. I'm a board member at UUMUAC, and I'm really pleased to have you
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listen to part two of our podcast, Dancing with the Panthers, featuring Reverend Dr. Finlay C.
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Campbell and Dr. John Rice. In this segment, we're coming into a discussion that's well
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underway with Reverend Campbell explaining the problem the Indiana Panther Party was having
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with its image, and what they did to change public perception of the Black Panther Party.
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Throughout this segment, you'll hear a number of voices as student members of the audience at
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Loyola University ask some important questions as they try to puzzle out exactly what had taken
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place within and around the Black Panther Party. I do want to note that the source for this podcast
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is a cassette. Yes, I said cassette, and it is several decades old. Working with it was quite
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a challenge. You will likely hear voices at times that sound too high, too low, too fast, too slow.
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Don't worry, that will pass. I will come back on at the end to give you some more information about
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what's coming up yet in the third podcast in the series. Now, here's Reverend Finlay Campbell
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Describing what most people in Indiana thought a Black Panther looked like.
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This was our image in Indiana. No shirt and tie, no dashiki. This is a cat, the brother with a gun.
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Dark glasses, the cigarette dangling. And we were a smaller chapter.
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The way we got around it in Indiana, the strategy that we came up with was we had to neutralize white fear
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to get past the media, to get around the media's control over what we were trying to do.
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Otherwise, where we were, we could definitely have got stumped out real quickly.
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So what we did with our Black student unions, we made them, we struggled with them and said,
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you cannot be on these campuses isolated from the white brothers and sisters.
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You're on these campuses, but we're setting you up. You're going to be the representatives
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from the Black nation to the white one or the white, from the Black community to the white community.
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And you got to open up the doors, your Black programs, your African-American, no closed doors,
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no Black house. You got to meet people and let them know that you're, we're not monsters from the edge.
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The second thing we did also was when they ran me for Congress, we would take the pastors with me.
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So we were going to be a little small Methodist churches.
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You go to these little small communities, state police cows all around us going into this church
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and people seeing them one-on-one to, hey, listen to what we were saying,
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discovering we were not anti-white.
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That was a big thing they pushed, that we were an anti-white Black terrorist gang.
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He said, we're not Farrakhanites, we're not anti-contamination of Islam, we're not that.
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And by making it clear who we really were, we busted through this image that we were with quote again.
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And so we ended up in Carverville, Indiana, sponsoring a fundraiser right on the street
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for the Black Panther Party free breakfast program and raised $120.
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We put them on cable in Darlington, Indiana.
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Bobby Seale, he was in jail talking about how he likes to cook.
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And this old down-home Southern white cracker came up to me and said,
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that's a beautiful brother, what's he in jail for?
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I said, he's in there for revolution.
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What are we going to do to get him out?
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I said, we'll see, we're going to build something here.
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The image was, this is directed to ordinary people.
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This was directly, strictly to the pig.
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The question, are you going to start building a warm-up about Black Panther's power dissipated?
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We're both going to bring that in as our ending, yeah, second round is, what happened?
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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The case of who we have with Jamal, the former Black Panther,
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is unfortunately definitive of what some cities have evolved in this day and age.
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I was wondering if either of you could comment, just your feelings on it,
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and what you are doing to support this cause and what we can do.
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Yeah, I'd like to say it to the end about, well, what do we do now?
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We have a list of possible tasks that we can do.
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I bought a book of that time of years about the Chicago trial,
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and in it was the White Panther Party.
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Yeah, we had a bunch, there were a bunch of groups that were at the Panther Party.
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And there was, there were groups actually sponsored,
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there were white groups sponsored by the Black Panther Party.
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They actually took everything in the Black Panther Party program,
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and just formed, they just took it wholesale, all of them, right?
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They just said, we're white people, we're white people, we're our fans.
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So, there were a bunch of, there were a bunch of little groups like that.
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And particularly at that time, there was Lincoln Park, right, which was like,
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where most of the radicals, radicals, what we call mother-class radicals, tended to live.
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Today, Lincoln Park in those days, it was like, say, Wicker Park today.
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It was just a place where a lot of creative thinking was going on, and a lot of people.
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So, yeah, the White Panther Party, and I can remember a couple other groups,
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I can't think of their names, but, like, Ray Panther, Senior Citizen Panther.
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There was a Black Panther Party in Israel, a Black Panther Party in Sweden,
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among dissonant black troops who had deserted and went to Sweden,
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among some Turkish youth in Germany, there was a Black Panther Party there.
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So, it really sprung up and went into different places in different parts of the world.
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And Reatherman was, now, Reatherman was not, Reatherman was a different kind of a creature.
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We're going to talk about them.
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But the White Panther Party was definitely, there was a group in Ann Arbor,
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and there was a lot of, we used to say in those days,
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vamping, going on against white radicals for marijuana.
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There was a fact that some young white people were killed by that.
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Some guy went in there with a machine gun, killed by four white youth,
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because they were, and one black guy, because they were yippee, as he thought.
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And from that image, that you could be chilled, too, like this.
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We need to have a White Panther Party for self-defense,
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against crazy, joke-type people, as another esoteric reference.
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But at the same time, I'd say that the Black Panther Party did believe in discipline.
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I want to give the image that the Black Panther Party,
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the Black Panther Party believed in democratic centralism,
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disciplined behavior.
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There was a difference between the Black Panther Party and the weather.
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You hear things with an eye, or what effect it would have,
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and you hear things with order.
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Well, that was the centralism.
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Orders came from the central war of the Illinois Black Panther Party,
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and democracy was, as you could argue,
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and that was, but the centralism was that you still had to obey the order.
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And when the weathermen decided to go on rampage down, downtown Chicago,
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breaking windows,
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the Black Panther Party said,
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that's stupid.
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That's not something we want to do.
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What we want to do is be an educational group.
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In fact, even the guns that the Black Panther Party had
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were part of an education.
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It was not perceived to be something you would necessarily use.
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It was perceived as a demonstration of your right to own a weapon.
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That's right.
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There you go.
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And at the time, most Black Francis felt that you could not,
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you had, first of all, you had to be, know the law.
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What is the law?
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How can you, how much of law, you have to,
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if you own a weapon, you have to follow the law.
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Okay.
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You have to have that weapon registered.
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You have to know the property used for that weapon.
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You have to keep it separate in your car from the ammunition.
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It cannot be in your car loaded.
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If you're, if you're an ex-convict, you shouldn't even own one.
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And all the rules and all the laws feel the Panther Party obeyed.
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Very strict on that.
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So that the Bill of Rights gave every American citizen the right to own a weapon.
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And that's the only thing that gun was demonstrated for.
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Now, when COINTELPRO came down and the Panther Party leadership
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was jailed on a lot of trumped-up charges,
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the charges were things that they did not do,
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then you did have a lot of young people coming in to the Panther Party
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who would transgress discipline,
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who would disobey the rules.
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And that's where you had the shootouts with the police.
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You had three that I know of around Panther Headquarters,
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shootouts and police.
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Because the police would come in the community and provoke,
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try to get black practice to respond.
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And the leadership was too smart to respond these provocations.
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But once the leadership was in jail,
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then that provocation did produce an armed response,
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which was an excuse to what we call VAMP,
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wholesale-owned blacks as a president.
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VAMP was assassinated this month,
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several, three years ago,
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before there was a direct relationship.
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But it means necessary slow.
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VAMP versus the ballot.
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VAMP works were required reading.
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I know in my chapter in Indiana,
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we have these political education sessions.
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We read a little Karl Marx.
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We read a little Frantz Fanon.
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Then we'll read Malcolm X.
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So he was like the spiritual side of the party.
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He was the one that said
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he had to have some kind of attention to the white community.
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It cannot be an isolated, segregated,
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separatist ideology like the Black Power fanatics
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or the Ron Kowankow faction was pushing.
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And so we picked up from the Malcolm X of the last two years.
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Particularly last year,
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he was working with socialist organizations
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and that kind of plan.
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And putting it toward a Marxist picture
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and moving in that direction.
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So his influence is purely ideological.
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Of course, we were definitely opposed to the Nation of Islam
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because by the time, by the 68th,
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the Nation of Islam was about
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working with the enemy.
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They were getting contracts from the Nixon administration.
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They were supporting the United States.
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They were quite happy
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with the daily administration at that time.
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And everybody thought that
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when the Nation of Islam
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was going to be a fighting organization
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that would respond.
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But when they killed
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and shot on six lawfuls out there in California,
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they didn't do anything.
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All that food of Islam
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and all that stuff about
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people do this,
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we don't do that.
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If they mess with us,
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they didn't do nothing.
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And a lot of ex-Muslims joined the party.
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A lot of ex-Muslims joined the party.
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Like Yolmitch Cleaver
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was an ex-national original guy
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who joined the party
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before he did
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has the most problem.
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So,
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we were definitely
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the anti-National good one.
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They were chops.
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I had experience on the street.
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I always admired this
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that now.
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Personally,
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because
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I grew up,
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in fact,
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when I grew up,
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I was about 18, 19,
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I was going to
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the Black Panther Party
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on Wednesday,
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Friday,
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and I was going
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to the National Division
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where I was on Sunday
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to get
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education
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in a cultural sense
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how to behave.
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The National Division
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taught me
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some things
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about how to behave
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in a
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cultural way
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and
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that uncivilized
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predicament
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that I was in.
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Being living
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on the west side
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of Chicago,
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I found the nation
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of Islam
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useful for me.
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And I found
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that the people
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of the nation
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of Islam
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are
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very odd
12:32.640 --> 12:33.180
for everyone
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for me.
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I can remember
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walking down the street
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telling us
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a newspaper
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talking about
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the big goods
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and all the fuck
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and this,
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you know,
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the body of the other thing.
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And I remember
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this most of the
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brother
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that took me
12:46.620 --> 12:46.980
inside
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took me
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inside
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and he said,
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first of all,
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stand up,
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keep my own.
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And second of all,
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took me straight.
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And I always thought,
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no, it's beautiful
12:58.480 --> 12:59.160
he told me that
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because,
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you know,
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it's just,
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I'm being a young
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stupid, right?
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I don't understand.
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And he took the time
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to say,
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you know,
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you can be a revolutionary
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without being an idiot.
13:09.040 --> 13:09.280
So,
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in a way,
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I always felt
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there was a positive
13:12.700 --> 13:13.780
straight in the United States
13:13.780 --> 13:13.920
of Islam
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even though
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I realized
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the politicians
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are just
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and
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actually,
13:19.500 --> 13:20.240
I had never thought
13:20.240 --> 13:21.340
that the motherless
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guy wouldn't do that
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for me.
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I mean,
13:23.240 --> 13:23.660
I thought,
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we're right.
13:25.620 --> 13:25.740
Well,
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the heart's mine.
13:27.280 --> 13:28.260
But he showed me that
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and then I had
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other guys like that.
13:30.960 --> 13:31.080
So,
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I'm just like,
13:31.580 --> 13:32.240
people in the nation
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were strong.
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You know,
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I never had any quarrel
13:35.640 --> 13:36.080
with it.
13:36.820 --> 13:37.600
I'm just a person.
13:38.100 --> 13:38.400
Certainly,
13:38.500 --> 13:39.140
when I grew up,
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West Side folks
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were basically
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Southern folks.
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church was strong
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and
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while we can read
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Fanon and Mark,
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no.
13:52.180 --> 13:53.240
Church was always there.
13:53.360 --> 13:54.560
Church was always there.
13:54.980 --> 13:55.920
I know a bunch of people
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in the Illinois
13:56.720 --> 13:57.160
Capitol,
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the Black Panther Party,
13:58.780 --> 13:59.520
who went and became
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ministers
13:59.940 --> 14:01.360
and then came back
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into Black Panther
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and then went and became
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minister
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by the time
14:04.760 --> 14:05.500
the Black Panther Party
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was destroyed
14:07.200 --> 14:07.900
by 74,
14:08.060 --> 14:08.520
the Panther Party
14:08.520 --> 14:08.840
and Brooklyn.
14:08.840 --> 14:09.600
So,
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I say on the West Side
14:10.440 --> 14:10.900
of Chicago,
14:11.040 --> 14:11.980
which is all I can speak for,
14:12.860 --> 14:13.940
the church and God
14:13.940 --> 14:15.400
was very much
14:15.400 --> 14:16.320
a part of who you were.
14:17.320 --> 14:18.180
In Indiana,
14:18.520 --> 14:19.860
we had a test.
14:20.060 --> 14:20.940
If a church allowed us
14:20.940 --> 14:21.980
to have a free breakfast
14:21.980 --> 14:22.500
program
14:22.500 --> 14:24.440
or a clothes distribution
14:24.440 --> 14:25.160
program,
14:25.720 --> 14:26.280
then that particular
14:26.280 --> 14:27.120
minister was part of
14:27.120 --> 14:27.600
what we call
14:27.600 --> 14:28.760
liberation theology.
14:29.640 --> 14:30.460
And one of our
14:30.460 --> 14:31.600
key people
14:31.600 --> 14:32.420
that we admired
14:32.420 --> 14:33.800
and had a poster
14:33.800 --> 14:34.620
was a guy named
14:34.620 --> 14:35.560
Reverend Charles Cohen.
14:36.220 --> 14:36.980
And he had a Bible
14:36.980 --> 14:38.340
with a big .45 caliber
14:38.340 --> 14:39.400
gun on.
14:40.100 --> 14:41.160
What we objected to
14:41.160 --> 14:42.260
was pacifism.
14:42.620 --> 14:43.480
Leave it to God
14:43.480 --> 14:44.260
to do everything.
14:45.040 --> 14:45.900
Don't get involved
14:45.900 --> 14:46.380
in anything.
14:46.520 --> 14:47.460
Just leave it to the Lord.
14:47.560 --> 14:48.080
He'll take care
14:48.080 --> 14:48.520
of everything.
14:48.660 --> 14:49.520
The pie-in-the-sky
14:49.520 --> 14:50.720
type preachers
14:50.720 --> 14:51.460
who are driving around
14:51.460 --> 14:52.260
in the Cadillacs
14:52.260 --> 14:53.780
while he's telling
14:53.780 --> 14:54.380
his flock,
14:54.800 --> 14:55.380
don't worry about
14:55.380 --> 14:56.900
getting a good car
14:56.900 --> 14:57.280
yourself.
14:57.360 --> 14:58.200
Give me all your money
14:58.200 --> 14:58.980
and keep moving.
14:59.140 --> 14:59.320
So,
14:59.780 --> 15:00.900
we made a distinction
15:00.900 --> 15:02.300
between pimping preachers
15:02.300 --> 15:04.820
and concerned
15:04.820 --> 15:05.600
true Christians,
15:05.720 --> 15:06.760
revolutionary Christians.
15:07.200 --> 15:08.020
We made a distinction
15:08.020 --> 15:09.200
between those
15:09.200 --> 15:09.740
who preach
15:09.740 --> 15:10.980
pacifism,
15:11.240 --> 15:11.760
surrender,
15:11.940 --> 15:12.660
don't do anything,
15:12.980 --> 15:13.760
turn the other cheek,
15:14.240 --> 15:14.980
let anything happen
15:14.980 --> 15:15.660
as God's will,
15:15.740 --> 15:16.800
whatever's going down,
15:17.160 --> 15:18.040
versus those who said
15:18.040 --> 15:18.780
God takes care
15:18.780 --> 15:19.380
of those who take
15:19.380 --> 15:19.860
themselves,
15:20.420 --> 15:21.200
or as the old song
15:21.200 --> 15:21.620
used to say,
15:21.700 --> 15:22.520
praise the Lord
15:22.520 --> 15:23.800
and pass the ammunition.
15:24.500 --> 15:24.780
So,
15:24.980 --> 15:25.760
we made a distinction
15:25.760 --> 15:26.720
between the two gods
15:26.720 --> 15:27.520
and the two religions
15:27.520 --> 15:28.220
that were out there.
15:28.220 --> 15:30.600
I have a question
15:30.600 --> 15:31.280
for both of you.
15:31.440 --> 15:31.660
First,
15:31.760 --> 15:32.300
were there any
15:32.300 --> 15:33.120
requirements,
15:33.320 --> 15:33.660
I guess,
15:33.740 --> 15:34.440
to join the
15:34.440 --> 15:35.720
Black Panther Party?
15:36.300 --> 15:37.080
The second question
15:37.080 --> 15:37.320
is,
15:37.560 --> 15:38.320
there was a
15:38.320 --> 15:40.200
rock group here
15:40.200 --> 15:40.780
by the name of
15:40.780 --> 15:41.120
Panthers
15:41.120 --> 15:41.920
a few years ago
15:41.920 --> 15:42.920
and they spread
15:42.920 --> 15:43.300
some,
15:44.320 --> 15:44.660
actually,
15:44.760 --> 15:45.300
I talked to them
15:45.300 --> 15:45.820
later just because
15:45.820 --> 15:47.380
I was wondering
15:47.380 --> 15:48.240
about their name
15:48.240 --> 15:48.800
and what it meant.
15:49.360 --> 15:50.220
And he didn't
15:50.220 --> 15:50.840
refer anything
15:50.840 --> 15:51.900
to the Black Panther Party
15:51.900 --> 15:52.500
back in the day,
15:52.500 --> 15:53.100
but he said,
15:53.980 --> 15:54.280
you know,
15:54.360 --> 15:55.020
I gave him my phone
15:55.020 --> 15:55.660
and he called me up
15:55.660 --> 15:56.120
and he called me
15:56.120 --> 15:56.660
a couple times
15:56.660 --> 15:57.060
and said that
15:57.060 --> 15:57.740
they were having a rally.
15:57.960 --> 15:58.620
I never attended
15:58.620 --> 15:59.760
but I just wanted to know
15:59.760 --> 16:00.760
if he knew anything
16:00.760 --> 16:01.400
about that
16:01.400 --> 16:01.980
and whether it was
16:01.980 --> 16:02.640
like a requirement
16:02.640 --> 16:03.680
to the Black Panther Party
16:03.680 --> 16:04.580
or whatever.
16:05.340 --> 16:05.700
Yeah,
16:05.740 --> 16:06.220
there were rules
16:06.220 --> 16:06.800
and regulations.
16:06.940 --> 16:07.080
In fact,
16:07.100 --> 16:08.860
they have a big long list.
16:09.080 --> 16:09.480
I should tell you
16:09.480 --> 16:09.740
there's something
16:09.740 --> 16:11.480
called the 10-10-10 rule
16:11.480 --> 16:12.820
and you couldn't,
16:12.960 --> 16:14.820
we were not against marijuana
16:14.820 --> 16:16.340
but when you were on duty
16:16.340 --> 16:17.460
you couldn't smoke marijuana,
16:17.600 --> 16:18.340
you couldn't be drunk,
16:18.860 --> 16:19.540
you couldn't insult
16:19.540 --> 16:20.320
and attack people.
16:20.800 --> 16:22.260
We took as our guide
16:22.260 --> 16:24.520
the Mao Zedong Handbook
16:24.520 --> 16:26.600
on Revolutionary Morality.
16:26.820 --> 16:27.940
You can't steal from the people,
16:28.060 --> 16:28.960
you can't take a penny,
16:29.100 --> 16:29.720
a dime.
16:30.200 --> 16:30.740
We are givers,
16:30.840 --> 16:31.340
not takers.
16:31.440 --> 16:32.580
We do not coerce
16:32.580 --> 16:33.420
the fellow workers.
16:33.540 --> 16:34.480
We only go after those
16:34.480 --> 16:36.640
like these rich type folks
16:36.640 --> 16:37.360
and we should have done that.
16:37.660 --> 16:38.800
There was a shakedown
16:38.800 --> 16:39.860
dynamic mention
16:39.860 --> 16:41.000
when we were to get food
16:41.000 --> 16:41.460
from people.
16:41.660 --> 16:41.680
Well,
16:41.700 --> 16:42.900
you don't want your storm bomb,
16:43.000 --> 16:43.180
right?
16:43.480 --> 16:44.180
So give us some eggs,
16:44.260 --> 16:44.860
give us some bacon,
16:45.080 --> 16:46.740
give us some salmon and eggs,
16:46.840 --> 16:47.080
I mean,
16:47.140 --> 16:47.840
or wherever that went.
16:48.300 --> 16:49.480
But there was a very,
16:49.680 --> 16:51.660
very almost ascetic rule.
16:51.660 --> 16:52.620
We did have
16:52.620 --> 16:53.900
an element of sexism,
16:53.980 --> 16:54.660
a very strong element
16:54.660 --> 16:55.340
of sexism
16:55.340 --> 16:58.000
within our female comrades.
16:58.520 --> 16:59.480
I really hated this theory
16:59.480 --> 17:00.180
that their job
17:00.180 --> 17:00.980
was to be back up
17:00.980 --> 17:03.980
for rest and recuperation.
17:04.600 --> 17:05.620
And one of our chief leaders
17:05.620 --> 17:06.900
in Indiana
17:06.900 --> 17:07.860
named Roz Frazier,
17:07.920 --> 17:08.900
she did a major job
17:08.900 --> 17:09.740
of turning us around
17:09.740 --> 17:11.080
on that the women
17:11.080 --> 17:11.900
are not to be just
17:11.900 --> 17:13.560
to help us get recuperated
17:13.560 --> 17:14.400
from doing our
17:14.400 --> 17:16.100
manly thing in the field
17:16.100 --> 17:16.900
because they have to
17:16.900 --> 17:17.360
stand in there
17:17.360 --> 17:18.060
side by side
17:18.060 --> 17:18.920
with their black gloves,
17:19.080 --> 17:19.320
berets,
17:19.440 --> 17:20.000
dark glasses,
17:20.000 --> 17:21.340
and leather things.
17:21.460 --> 17:22.260
So there was
17:22.260 --> 17:22.960
some structure there,
17:23.020 --> 17:23.620
very disciplined.
17:23.840 --> 17:24.120
It wasn't,
17:24.720 --> 17:25.200
you just come in
17:25.200 --> 17:26.180
and do what you wanted to do.
17:26.800 --> 17:27.860
And a lot of people
17:27.860 --> 17:28.380
come in and think
17:28.380 --> 17:29.360
it was just an excuse
17:29.360 --> 17:32.220
to be Mr. Tough Guy.
17:32.460 --> 17:33.580
I got a Black Panther car,
17:33.660 --> 17:34.540
I'm going to walk around here.
17:34.880 --> 17:35.620
No, the line was,
17:35.700 --> 17:36.900
you're here to serve the people.
17:37.320 --> 17:38.240
You're the oxen
17:38.240 --> 17:39.040
to be written
17:39.040 --> 17:40.280
by the people.
17:40.540 --> 17:41.340
And we scare away
17:41.340 --> 17:42.460
a lot of shucking
17:42.460 --> 17:43.320
and jiving people.
17:43.320 --> 17:44.760
We call that half-steppers
17:44.760 --> 17:46.000
because of that
17:46.000 --> 17:46.780
kind of discipline.
17:49.240 --> 17:50.040
Yeah, they were called
17:50.040 --> 17:50.780
Rally Panthers
17:50.780 --> 17:51.460
in Chicago
17:51.460 --> 17:52.400
to come around
17:52.400 --> 17:52.940
for the rally.
17:53.920 --> 17:56.660
And the discipline
17:56.660 --> 17:58.440
was one thing
17:58.440 --> 17:59.380
that kept people straight,
17:59.640 --> 18:01.140
kept people from going.
18:01.180 --> 18:01.700
I've never done
18:01.700 --> 18:02.380
the Panther Party.
18:02.740 --> 18:03.400
And I think
18:03.400 --> 18:04.820
when I came into Chicago,
18:05.640 --> 18:05.940
let's see,
18:06.000 --> 18:07.580
69.
18:08.480 --> 18:09.620
Yeah, summer of 69,
18:09.780 --> 18:10.300
when I really started
18:10.300 --> 18:11.180
working for Panther Party,
18:11.180 --> 18:13.380
they were so popular
18:13.380 --> 18:15.780
that it was like a clique.
18:16.200 --> 18:16.640
It was something
18:16.640 --> 18:17.700
you couldn't get in really.
18:17.920 --> 18:18.120
I mean,
18:18.140 --> 18:18.580
just telling you
18:18.580 --> 18:19.120
the way it was.
18:19.460 --> 18:21.120
You got your theory,
18:21.380 --> 18:22.200
you got your ideas
18:22.200 --> 18:23.340
of what you're supposed
18:23.340 --> 18:23.860
to be like.
18:24.260 --> 18:25.020
But in reality,
18:25.460 --> 18:26.040
the Panther Party
18:26.040 --> 18:26.920
in the summer of 69
18:26.920 --> 18:27.720
was so popular
18:27.720 --> 18:30.220
that you kind of had to,
18:31.620 --> 18:32.180
you know,
18:32.220 --> 18:33.260
there was a bunch of hoops
18:33.260 --> 18:33.960
you had to went through.
18:34.260 --> 18:35.200
One of the hoops
18:35.200 --> 18:36.040
for sure was
18:36.040 --> 18:36.940
you had to commit
18:36.940 --> 18:38.040
some revolutionary action.
18:38.860 --> 18:39.780
That meant you had to show
18:39.780 --> 18:40.700
that you were bold enough
18:40.700 --> 18:41.260
to do something
18:41.260 --> 18:42.360
that was really hard to do.
18:43.280 --> 18:43.540
You know,
18:43.540 --> 18:44.260
I'm being as vague
18:44.260 --> 18:44.860
as I can
18:44.860 --> 18:46.940
because I would hate
18:46.940 --> 18:48.020
to be arrested
18:48.020 --> 18:48.940
for some of those stuff
18:48.940 --> 18:50.280
without hoops.
18:51.220 --> 18:51.580
So,
18:52.060 --> 18:52.280
I mean,
18:52.320 --> 18:53.700
that was just part
18:53.700 --> 18:54.440
of being revolutionary,
18:54.660 --> 18:54.820
right?
18:54.900 --> 18:55.760
You do not obey,
18:56.380 --> 18:57.120
you obey the rules
18:57.120 --> 18:57.820
of the Panther Party,
18:57.900 --> 18:59.140
but the rules of the society
18:59.140 --> 19:00.220
are not necessarily yours,
19:00.800 --> 19:01.080
right?
19:01.340 --> 19:01.720
So,
19:01.880 --> 19:02.960
if you want to go downtown
19:02.960 --> 19:03.660
to Marshall Field
19:03.660 --> 19:05.880
and lift $100 worth of goods,
19:06.000 --> 19:06.200
hey,
19:06.800 --> 19:08.740
this proves that
19:08.740 --> 19:09.500
you're a revolutionist now.
19:09.500 --> 19:11.900
expropriation.
19:12.160 --> 19:12.380
Yeah,
19:12.560 --> 19:13.660
expropriation of what
19:13.660 --> 19:14.780
belonged to the people anyway,
19:15.200 --> 19:16.120
not considered a seal.
19:16.680 --> 19:16.980
So,
19:18.040 --> 19:19.020
there were things like that
19:19.020 --> 19:20.500
that determined
19:20.500 --> 19:21.920
who was and who was not.
19:22.060 --> 19:22.980
The other thing was,
19:23.480 --> 19:24.340
West Side of Chicago
19:24.340 --> 19:26.040
was dominated
19:26.040 --> 19:27.040
by group police
19:27.040 --> 19:29.800
and the evidence
19:29.800 --> 19:31.140
and mockers.
19:32.740 --> 19:34.640
And he had to be tough enough
19:34.640 --> 19:36.520
to face a very tough reality.
19:37.880 --> 19:38.760
West Side of Chicago
19:38.760 --> 19:40.980
was a rough place to be.
19:40.980 --> 19:43.060
So,
19:43.620 --> 19:44.520
being a Panther Party,
19:44.640 --> 19:45.800
you put yourself on the line
19:45.800 --> 19:47.160
against some very
19:47.160 --> 19:48.100
oracle
19:48.100 --> 19:49.840
facts.
19:50.960 --> 19:51.120
You know,
19:51.160 --> 19:51.820
I mean police
19:51.820 --> 19:53.320
that would shoot
19:53.320 --> 19:55.100
and kill
19:55.100 --> 19:55.760
for no reason.
19:57.660 --> 19:58.040
It was,
19:58.120 --> 19:58.360
I mean,
19:58.720 --> 19:59.360
some of the things
19:59.360 --> 20:00.520
police did,
20:00.580 --> 20:01.240
you would not believe
20:01.240 --> 20:01.700
in place.
20:02.860 --> 20:03.620
Maybe today,
20:03.700 --> 20:04.060
I don't know.
20:05.060 --> 20:05.340
So,
20:06.020 --> 20:06.940
and then of course
20:06.940 --> 20:08.100
the mafia was there too.
20:09.480 --> 20:12.840
The Alvin then basically
20:12.840 --> 20:13.860
was a way
20:13.860 --> 20:14.500
which the mafia
20:14.500 --> 20:15.940
controlled the community
20:15.940 --> 20:17.960
and the police
20:17.960 --> 20:18.640
were basically,
20:18.880 --> 20:20.220
most police on the West Side
20:20.220 --> 20:22.060
were on two payrolls.
20:23.120 --> 20:23.900
The city's payroll
20:23.900 --> 20:25.140
and the mafia's payroll.
20:26.980 --> 20:27.220
So,
20:27.320 --> 20:28.160
that was some of the reality
20:28.160 --> 20:28.920
we had to deal with.
20:31.020 --> 20:32.060
The one of the Alvin's
20:32.060 --> 20:32.480
is murder.
20:33.560 --> 20:34.000
Yeah,
20:34.060 --> 20:34.900
Ben Lewis,
20:35.500 --> 20:36.080
63,
20:36.720 --> 20:38.160
shot in his head,
20:38.460 --> 20:39.220
back of his head,
20:39.340 --> 20:40.000
handcuffed,
20:40.780 --> 20:41.800
with police handcuffs,
20:41.920 --> 20:42.100
which,
20:42.320 --> 20:43.040
there's a lot of papers
20:43.040 --> 20:43.740
on put that in,
20:43.800 --> 20:43.960
right?
20:44.080 --> 20:45.160
With police handcuffs,
20:46.320 --> 20:46.580
you know,
20:46.660 --> 20:47.560
the first black elected
20:47.560 --> 20:49.360
Alvin from the West Side
20:49.360 --> 20:49.860
of Chicago
20:49.860 --> 20:50.420
was murder.
20:52.720 --> 20:53.960
That was 1960.
20:54.420 --> 20:55.100
It was about January,
20:55.700 --> 20:57.320
late January of the 23rd.
20:57.320 --> 20:57.600
Wait.
20:57.820 --> 20:58.960
They never found
20:58.960 --> 20:59.600
the court
20:59.600 --> 21:00.460
or sentence
21:00.460 --> 21:02.340
where it did.
21:02.960 --> 21:03.400
Yeah,
21:03.400 --> 21:04.100
and this guy
21:04.100 --> 21:05.200
who just died,
21:05.400 --> 21:05.760
Polar,
21:06.440 --> 21:07.040
the Republican,
21:07.740 --> 21:09.080
he gets the newspaper
21:09.080 --> 21:09.620
and says,
21:09.960 --> 21:10.300
Polar,
21:10.560 --> 21:10.940
Polar,
21:11.260 --> 21:12.100
he gets the newspaper
21:12.100 --> 21:12.800
and says that
21:12.800 --> 21:15.260
obviously he was killed
21:15.260 --> 21:16.060
by the Polini's
21:16.060 --> 21:18.100
Democratic Party
21:18.100 --> 21:18.560
triumphal
21:18.560 --> 21:19.060
with the rules
21:19.060 --> 21:19.680
of the West Side.
21:19.680 --> 21:20.480
and
21:20.480 --> 21:23.160
there's a quick
21:23.160 --> 21:24.040
black Alvin.
21:25.080 --> 21:25.480
None of them
21:25.480 --> 21:26.140
open their mouth.
21:26.560 --> 21:26.880
Well,
21:26.940 --> 21:27.740
the silent tricks.
21:27.960 --> 21:29.280
They never said a word.
21:29.460 --> 21:30.460
Not a mumbling word.
21:30.660 --> 21:31.560
That's the kind of thing
21:31.560 --> 21:32.300
that makes people
21:32.300 --> 21:32.700
revolutions.
21:33.200 --> 21:33.560
Yes.
21:33.700 --> 21:34.240
Because the people
21:34.240 --> 21:34.780
who are elected,
21:35.000 --> 21:36.540
supposedly black representatives,
21:36.680 --> 21:37.480
take the damn mouth
21:37.480 --> 21:37.640
out.
21:37.640 --> 21:38.600
Even when one of their own
21:38.600 --> 21:39.060
gets killed,
21:39.500 --> 21:40.340
we don't pick up.
21:41.100 --> 21:42.160
So that's pushing people
21:42.160 --> 21:42.840
in the revolution.
21:42.840 --> 21:50.400
That was Dr. Joan Price
21:50.400 --> 21:51.240
talking about
21:51.240 --> 21:52.120
how the political
21:52.120 --> 21:53.820
situation in Chicago
21:53.820 --> 21:54.820
had become
21:54.820 --> 21:56.120
so corrupt
21:56.120 --> 21:57.300
that it was actually
21:57.300 --> 21:58.420
pushing people
21:58.420 --> 22:00.020
toward the revolution.
22:02.300 --> 22:03.660
Thanks for listening
22:03.660 --> 22:05.020
to this podcast
22:05.020 --> 22:05.660
called
22:05.660 --> 22:08.160
Dancing with the Black Panthers.
22:08.440 --> 22:09.760
We'll be releasing
22:09.760 --> 22:10.460
part three
22:10.460 --> 22:11.340
in a few weeks.
22:11.340 --> 22:12.780
That final segment
22:12.780 --> 22:13.500
will include
22:13.500 --> 22:14.400
our speaker's
22:14.400 --> 22:15.540
unique understanding
22:15.540 --> 22:17.020
of why the Panther Party
22:17.020 --> 22:17.760
dissipated
22:17.760 --> 22:19.600
in the early 1970s
22:19.600 --> 22:21.320
as well as
22:21.320 --> 22:22.860
what we can do now
22:22.860 --> 22:23.880
to continue
22:23.880 --> 22:25.240
the actions
22:25.240 --> 22:26.560
that the Panther Party
22:26.560 --> 22:27.780
set into motion
22:27.780 --> 22:29.540
and what they
22:29.540 --> 22:30.400
could have done
22:30.400 --> 22:31.040
if
22:31.040 --> 22:33.560
I'm forward to having
22:33.560 --> 22:34.780
you join us then.
00:00.000 --> 00:07.840
This is Barbara Jean Walsh. I'm a board member at UUMUAC, and I'm really pleased to have you
00:07.840 --> 00:14.820
listen to part two of our podcast, Dancing with the Panthers, featuring Reverend Dr. Finlay C.
00:14.900 --> 00:21.300
Campbell and Dr. John Rice. In this segment, we're coming into a discussion that's well
00:21.300 --> 00:28.300
underway with Reverend Campbell explaining the problem the Indiana Panther Party was having
00:28.300 --> 00:34.440
with its image, and what they did to change public perception of the Black Panther Party.
00:35.180 --> 00:40.900
Throughout this segment, you'll hear a number of voices as student members of the audience at
00:40.900 --> 00:48.060
Loyola University ask some important questions as they try to puzzle out exactly what had taken
00:48.060 --> 00:55.520
place within and around the Black Panther Party. I do want to note that the source for this podcast
00:55.520 --> 01:02.480
is a cassette. Yes, I said cassette, and it is several decades old. Working with it was quite
01:02.480 --> 01:08.580
a challenge. You will likely hear voices at times that sound too high, too low, too fast, too slow.
01:09.060 --> 01:15.400
Don't worry, that will pass. I will come back on at the end to give you some more information about
01:15.400 --> 01:22.400
what's coming up yet in the third podcast in the series. Now, here's Reverend Finlay Campbell
01:22.400 --> 01:28.360
Describing what most people in Indiana thought a Black Panther looked like.
01:28.360 --> 01:38.040
This was our image in Indiana. No shirt and tie, no dashiki. This is a cat, the brother with a gun.
01:39.800 --> 01:44.400
Dark glasses, the cigarette dangling. And we were a smaller chapter.
01:44.400 --> 01:53.240
The way we got around it in Indiana, the strategy that we came up with was we had to neutralize white fear
01:53.240 --> 01:59.680
to get past the media, to get around the media's control over what we were trying to do.
01:59.860 --> 02:04.120
Otherwise, where we were, we could definitely have got stumped out real quickly.
02:04.840 --> 02:09.780
So what we did with our Black student unions, we made them, we struggled with them and said,
02:09.780 --> 02:14.400
you cannot be on these campuses isolated from the white brothers and sisters.
02:15.120 --> 02:18.700
You're on these campuses, but we're setting you up. You're going to be the representatives
02:18.700 --> 02:24.380
from the Black nation to the white one or the white, from the Black community to the white community.
02:24.920 --> 02:29.260
And you got to open up the doors, your Black programs, your African-American, no closed doors,
02:29.720 --> 02:35.220
no Black house. You got to meet people and let them know that you're, we're not monsters from the edge.
02:35.220 --> 02:41.200
The second thing we did also was when they ran me for Congress, we would take the pastors with me.
02:41.560 --> 02:44.100
So we were going to be a little small Methodist churches.
02:45.000 --> 02:51.140
You go to these little small communities, state police cows all around us going into this church
02:51.140 --> 02:55.980
and people seeing them one-on-one to, hey, listen to what we were saying,
02:56.060 --> 02:57.940
discovering we were not anti-white.
02:58.760 --> 03:02.540
That was a big thing they pushed, that we were an anti-white Black terrorist gang.
03:02.540 --> 03:06.120
He said, we're not Farrakhanites, we're not anti-contamination of Islam, we're not that.
03:06.820 --> 03:11.760
And by making it clear who we really were, we busted through this image that we were with quote again.
03:12.260 --> 03:17.520
And so we ended up in Carverville, Indiana, sponsoring a fundraiser right on the street
03:17.520 --> 03:21.020
for the Black Panther Party free breakfast program and raised $120.
03:21.580 --> 03:25.300
We put them on cable in Darlington, Indiana.
03:25.780 --> 03:30.220
Bobby Seale, he was in jail talking about how he likes to cook.
03:30.220 --> 03:34.100
And this old down-home Southern white cracker came up to me and said,
03:34.420 --> 03:36.580
that's a beautiful brother, what's he in jail for?
03:36.900 --> 03:38.140
I said, he's in there for revolution.
03:38.500 --> 03:39.960
What are we going to do to get him out?
03:40.540 --> 03:43.920
I said, we'll see, we're going to build something here.
03:44.080 --> 03:47.980
The image was, this is directed to ordinary people.
03:48.380 --> 03:51.000
This was directly, strictly to the pig.
03:52.000 --> 03:57.000
The question, are you going to start building a warm-up about Black Panther's power dissipated?
03:57.000 --> 04:02.420
We're both going to bring that in as our ending, yeah, second round is, what happened?
04:03.200 --> 04:03.640
Exactly.
04:04.540 --> 04:04.760
Yeah.
04:05.400 --> 04:08.680
The case of who we have with Jamal, the former Black Panther,
04:09.240 --> 04:16.260
is unfortunately definitive of what some cities have evolved in this day and age.
04:16.340 --> 04:19.480
I was wondering if either of you could comment, just your feelings on it,
04:19.480 --> 04:23.960
and what you are doing to support this cause and what we can do.
04:24.400 --> 04:27.020
Yeah, I'd like to say it to the end about, well, what do we do now?
04:27.260 --> 04:30.800
We have a list of possible tasks that we can do.
04:31.480 --> 04:34.980
I bought a book of that time of years about the Chicago trial,
04:35.320 --> 04:38.120
and in it was the White Panther Party.
04:38.120 --> 04:41.960
Yeah, we had a bunch, there were a bunch of groups that were at the Panther Party.
04:42.760 --> 04:45.400
And there was, there were groups actually sponsored,
04:45.520 --> 04:47.540
there were white groups sponsored by the Black Panther Party.
04:47.640 --> 04:50.960
They actually took everything in the Black Panther Party program,
04:51.780 --> 04:54.960
and just formed, they just took it wholesale, all of them, right?
04:55.040 --> 04:57.580
They just said, we're white people, we're white people, we're our fans.
04:58.660 --> 05:02.400
So, there were a bunch of, there were a bunch of little groups like that.
05:02.400 --> 05:06.280
And particularly at that time, there was Lincoln Park, right, which was like,
05:07.020 --> 05:12.040
where most of the radicals, radicals, what we call mother-class radicals, tended to live.
05:13.020 --> 05:16.220
Today, Lincoln Park in those days, it was like, say, Wicker Park today.
05:16.820 --> 05:21.120
It was just a place where a lot of creative thinking was going on, and a lot of people.
05:21.900 --> 05:24.900
So, yeah, the White Panther Party, and I can remember a couple other groups,
05:24.960 --> 05:30.040
I can't think of their names, but, like, Ray Panther, Senior Citizen Panther.
05:30.040 --> 05:35.500
There was a Black Panther Party in Israel, a Black Panther Party in Sweden,
05:36.300 --> 05:40.300
among dissonant black troops who had deserted and went to Sweden,
05:41.100 --> 05:45.260
among some Turkish youth in Germany, there was a Black Panther Party there.
05:46.060 --> 05:50.540
So, it really sprung up and went into different places in different parts of the world.
05:51.420 --> 05:56.640
And Reatherman was, now, Reatherman was not, Reatherman was a different kind of a creature.
05:56.760 --> 05:57.620
We're going to talk about them.
05:57.620 --> 06:02.420
But the White Panther Party was definitely, there was a group in Ann Arbor,
06:02.980 --> 06:05.120
and there was a lot of, we used to say in those days,
06:05.520 --> 06:10.020
vamping, going on against white radicals for marijuana.
06:10.840 --> 06:13.220
There was a fact that some young white people were killed by that.
06:13.580 --> 06:18.020
Some guy went in there with a machine gun, killed by four white youth,
06:18.680 --> 06:23.740
because they were, and one black guy, because they were yippee, as he thought.
06:23.740 --> 06:27.840
And from that image, that you could be chilled, too, like this.
06:28.080 --> 06:31.280
We need to have a White Panther Party for self-defense,
06:31.880 --> 06:35.960
against crazy, joke-type people, as another esoteric reference.
06:35.960 --> 06:41.120
But at the same time, I'd say that the Black Panther Party did believe in discipline.
06:41.940 --> 06:44.900
I want to give the image that the Black Panther Party,
06:45.040 --> 06:47.720
the Black Panther Party believed in democratic centralism,
06:48.900 --> 06:51.560
disciplined behavior.
06:52.640 --> 06:55.300
There was a difference between the Black Panther Party and the weather.
06:56.700 --> 07:00.620
You hear things with an eye, or what effect it would have,
07:00.680 --> 07:01.640
and you hear things with order.
07:01.640 --> 07:04.460
Well, that was the centralism.
07:04.640 --> 07:09.500
Orders came from the central war of the Illinois Black Panther Party,
07:10.220 --> 07:13.120
and democracy was, as you could argue,
07:14.880 --> 07:18.840
and that was, but the centralism was that you still had to obey the order.
07:20.140 --> 07:25.740
And when the weathermen decided to go on rampage down, downtown Chicago,
07:26.340 --> 07:27.140
breaking windows,
07:27.140 --> 07:29.960
the Black Panther Party said,
07:30.080 --> 07:30.620
that's stupid.
07:31.140 --> 07:32.560
That's not something we want to do.
07:33.040 --> 07:35.200
What we want to do is be an educational group.
07:35.340 --> 07:38.900
In fact, even the guns that the Black Panther Party had
07:38.900 --> 07:41.520
were part of an education.
07:41.700 --> 07:45.280
It was not perceived to be something you would necessarily use.
07:46.040 --> 07:49.280
It was perceived as a demonstration of your right to own a weapon.
07:49.420 --> 07:49.880
That's right.
07:50.680 --> 07:51.200
There you go.
07:51.200 --> 07:55.780
And at the time, most Black Francis felt that you could not,
07:56.700 --> 07:59.900
you had, first of all, you had to be, know the law.
08:01.420 --> 08:02.320
What is the law?
08:02.400 --> 08:05.300
How can you, how much of law, you have to,
08:05.440 --> 08:07.400
if you own a weapon, you have to follow the law.
08:07.980 --> 08:08.280
Okay.
08:08.360 --> 08:09.900
You have to have that weapon registered.
08:10.380 --> 08:12.280
You have to know the property used for that weapon.
08:12.720 --> 08:15.660
You have to keep it separate in your car from the ammunition.
08:15.880 --> 08:17.060
It cannot be in your car loaded.
08:17.420 --> 08:20.220
If you're, if you're an ex-convict, you shouldn't even own one.
08:20.220 --> 08:24.480
And all the rules and all the laws feel the Panther Party obeyed.
08:25.560 --> 08:26.900
Very strict on that.
08:27.760 --> 08:32.320
So that the Bill of Rights gave every American citizen the right to own a weapon.
08:33.840 --> 08:37.100
And that's the only thing that gun was demonstrated for.
08:37.180 --> 08:40.880
Now, when COINTELPRO came down and the Panther Party leadership
08:40.880 --> 08:46.020
was jailed on a lot of trumped-up charges,
08:46.020 --> 08:48.960
the charges were things that they did not do,
08:48.960 --> 08:53.080
then you did have a lot of young people coming in to the Panther Party
08:53.080 --> 08:57.320
who would transgress discipline,
08:57.460 --> 08:58.820
who would disobey the rules.
08:59.320 --> 09:01.340
And that's where you had the shootouts with the police.
09:02.320 --> 09:05.700
You had three that I know of around Panther Headquarters,
09:05.960 --> 09:07.140
shootouts and police.
09:07.140 --> 09:09.500
Because the police would come in the community and provoke,
09:10.320 --> 09:13.540
try to get black practice to respond.
09:14.400 --> 09:19.280
And the leadership was too smart to respond these provocations.
09:19.700 --> 09:21.120
But once the leadership was in jail,
09:21.240 --> 09:23.840
then that provocation did produce an armed response,
09:24.520 --> 09:27.800
which was an excuse to what we call VAMP,
09:28.640 --> 09:30.520
wholesale-owned blacks as a president.
09:30.520 --> 09:38.540
VAMP was assassinated this month,
09:38.960 --> 09:40.360
several, three years ago,
09:40.940 --> 09:43.980
before there was a direct relationship.
09:44.980 --> 09:48.140
But it means necessary slow.
09:49.140 --> 09:50.860
VAMP versus the ballot.
09:51.680 --> 09:54.280
VAMP works were required reading.
09:54.280 --> 09:57.520
I know in my chapter in Indiana,
09:57.760 --> 09:59.560
we have these political education sessions.
10:00.460 --> 10:02.000
We read a little Karl Marx.
10:02.280 --> 10:04.100
We read a little Frantz Fanon.
10:04.240 --> 10:05.980
Then we'll read Malcolm X.
10:06.640 --> 10:10.680
So he was like the spiritual side of the party.
10:11.780 --> 10:12.720
He was the one that said
10:12.720 --> 10:15.100
he had to have some kind of attention to the white community.
10:15.240 --> 10:16.940
It cannot be an isolated, segregated,
10:17.720 --> 10:21.280
separatist ideology like the Black Power fanatics
10:21.280 --> 10:25.200
or the Ron Kowankow faction was pushing.
10:26.080 --> 10:29.740
And so we picked up from the Malcolm X of the last two years.
10:31.440 --> 10:32.540
Particularly last year,
10:32.620 --> 10:35.240
he was working with socialist organizations
10:35.240 --> 10:36.340
and that kind of plan.
10:36.820 --> 10:39.120
And putting it toward a Marxist picture
10:39.120 --> 10:40.880
and moving in that direction.
10:41.840 --> 10:44.620
So his influence is purely ideological.
10:44.900 --> 10:47.000
Of course, we were definitely opposed to the Nation of Islam
10:47.000 --> 10:49.360
because by the time, by the 68th,
10:49.360 --> 10:50.580
the Nation of Islam was about
10:50.580 --> 10:52.160
working with the enemy.
10:53.040 --> 10:55.340
They were getting contracts from the Nixon administration.
10:55.800 --> 10:58.140
They were supporting the United States.
10:58.860 --> 11:00.700
They were quite happy
11:00.700 --> 11:05.120
with the daily administration at that time.
11:06.000 --> 11:07.260
And everybody thought that
11:07.260 --> 11:09.760
when the Nation of Islam
11:09.760 --> 11:11.540
was going to be a fighting organization
11:11.540 --> 11:12.620
that would respond.
11:13.220 --> 11:14.600
But when they killed
11:14.600 --> 11:18.260
and shot on six lawfuls out there in California,
11:18.260 --> 11:20.240
they didn't do anything.
11:20.580 --> 11:21.500
All that food of Islam
11:21.500 --> 11:23.000
and all that stuff about
11:23.000 --> 11:23.840
people do this,
11:23.880 --> 11:24.540
we don't do that.
11:24.620 --> 11:25.420
If they mess with us,
11:25.460 --> 11:26.080
they didn't do nothing.
11:26.080 --> 11:30.460
And a lot of ex-Muslims joined the party.
11:30.960 --> 11:32.740
A lot of ex-Muslims joined the party.
11:32.840 --> 11:33.640
Like Yolmitch Cleaver
11:33.640 --> 11:35.640
was an ex-national original guy
11:35.640 --> 11:37.000
who joined the party
11:37.000 --> 11:37.700
before he did
11:37.700 --> 11:38.960
has the most problem.
11:39.120 --> 11:39.340
So,
11:39.880 --> 11:41.040
we were definitely
11:41.040 --> 11:43.080
the anti-National good one.
11:43.460 --> 11:44.540
They were chops.
11:44.540 --> 11:46.160
I had experience on the street.
11:46.880 --> 11:47.980
I always admired this
11:47.980 --> 11:48.520
that now.
11:49.260 --> 11:49.660
Personally,
11:49.860 --> 11:50.140
because
11:50.140 --> 11:51.860
I grew up,
11:51.980 --> 11:52.160
in fact,
11:52.260 --> 11:53.020
when I grew up,
11:53.100 --> 11:54.180
I was about 18, 19,
11:54.180 --> 11:55.460
I was going to
11:55.460 --> 11:56.300
the Black Panther Party
11:56.300 --> 11:59.220
on Wednesday,
11:59.340 --> 11:59.760
Friday,
12:00.300 --> 12:02.240
and I was going
12:02.240 --> 12:02.920
to the National Division
12:02.920 --> 12:03.780
where I was on Sunday
12:03.780 --> 12:05.600
to get
12:05.600 --> 12:07.020
education
12:07.020 --> 12:09.220
in a cultural sense
12:09.220 --> 12:10.800
how to behave.
12:11.300 --> 12:12.200
The National Division
12:12.200 --> 12:13.500
taught me
12:13.500 --> 12:14.060
some things
12:14.060 --> 12:15.120
about how to behave
12:15.120 --> 12:16.440
in a
12:16.440 --> 12:17.560
cultural way
12:17.560 --> 12:18.340
and
12:18.340 --> 12:19.500
that uncivilized
12:19.500 --> 12:20.600
predicament
12:20.600 --> 12:21.300
that I was in.
12:21.380 --> 12:21.820
Being living
12:21.820 --> 12:22.460
on the west side
12:22.460 --> 12:23.000
of Chicago,
12:23.800 --> 12:24.460
I found the nation
12:24.460 --> 12:24.840
of Islam
12:24.840 --> 12:25.780
useful for me.
12:26.860 --> 12:27.640
And I found
12:27.640 --> 12:28.220
that the people
12:28.220 --> 12:28.680
of the nation
12:28.680 --> 12:29.320
of Islam
12:29.320 --> 12:30.720
are
12:30.720 --> 12:32.640
very odd
12:32.640 --> 12:33.180
for everyone
12:33.180 --> 12:34.040
for me.
12:35.060 --> 12:35.620
I can remember
12:35.620 --> 12:36.460
walking down the street
12:36.460 --> 12:36.880
telling us
12:36.880 --> 12:37.420
a newspaper
12:37.420 --> 12:39.820
talking about
12:39.820 --> 12:41.360
the big goods
12:41.360 --> 12:41.920
and all the fuck
12:41.920 --> 12:42.320
and this,
12:42.440 --> 12:42.680
you know,
12:42.740 --> 12:43.660
the body of the other thing.
12:44.380 --> 12:45.140
And I remember
12:45.140 --> 12:46.000
this most of the
12:46.000 --> 12:46.200
brother
12:46.200 --> 12:46.620
that took me
12:46.620 --> 12:46.980
inside
12:46.980 --> 12:49.480
took me
12:49.480 --> 12:49.840
inside
12:49.840 --> 12:50.160
and he said,
12:50.220 --> 12:51.360
first of all,
12:51.420 --> 12:51.920
stand up,
12:51.960 --> 12:52.400
keep my own.
12:52.940 --> 12:53.600
And second of all,
12:53.700 --> 12:54.200
took me straight.
12:55.520 --> 12:56.600
And I always thought,
12:57.820 --> 12:58.480
no, it's beautiful
12:58.480 --> 12:59.160
he told me that
12:59.160 --> 12:59.500
because,
13:00.000 --> 13:00.240
you know,
13:00.320 --> 13:00.700
it's just,
13:00.840 --> 13:01.820
I'm being a young
13:01.820 --> 13:02.640
stupid, right?
13:02.780 --> 13:03.800
I don't understand.
13:04.260 --> 13:05.140
And he took the time
13:05.140 --> 13:05.480
to say,
13:05.540 --> 13:05.800
you know,
13:05.960 --> 13:06.780
you can be a revolutionary
13:06.780 --> 13:08.620
without being an idiot.
13:09.040 --> 13:09.280
So,
13:10.180 --> 13:10.820
in a way,
13:11.200 --> 13:11.880
I always felt
13:11.880 --> 13:12.700
there was a positive
13:12.700 --> 13:13.780
straight in the United States
13:13.780 --> 13:13.920
of Islam
13:13.920 --> 13:14.400
even though
13:14.400 --> 13:15.260
I realized
13:15.260 --> 13:15.880
the politicians
13:15.880 --> 13:16.460
are just
13:16.460 --> 13:17.640
and
13:17.640 --> 13:19.380
actually,
13:19.500 --> 13:20.240
I had never thought
13:20.240 --> 13:21.340
that the motherless
13:21.340 --> 13:22.000
guy wouldn't do that
13:22.000 --> 13:22.360
for me.
13:22.920 --> 13:23.240
I mean,
13:23.240 --> 13:23.660
I thought,
13:24.720 --> 13:25.300
we're right.
13:25.620 --> 13:25.740
Well,
13:25.800 --> 13:26.560
the heart's mine.
13:27.280 --> 13:28.260
But he showed me that
13:28.260 --> 13:29.860
and then I had
13:29.860 --> 13:30.960
other guys like that.
13:30.960 --> 13:31.080
So,
13:31.140 --> 13:31.500
I'm just like,
13:31.580 --> 13:32.240
people in the nation
13:32.240 --> 13:32.880
were strong.
13:33.700 --> 13:33.980
You know,
13:34.340 --> 13:35.640
I never had any quarrel
13:35.640 --> 13:36.080
with it.
13:36.820 --> 13:37.600
I'm just a person.
13:38.100 --> 13:38.400
Certainly,
13:38.500 --> 13:39.140
when I grew up,
13:40.320 --> 13:41.000
West Side folks
13:41.000 --> 13:41.580
were basically
13:41.580 --> 13:42.220
Southern folks.
13:42.220 --> 13:45.400
church was strong
13:45.400 --> 13:47.160
and
13:47.160 --> 13:49.300
while we can read
13:49.300 --> 13:50.700
Fanon and Mark,
13:51.240 --> 13:51.540
no.
13:52.180 --> 13:53.240
Church was always there.
13:53.360 --> 13:54.560
Church was always there.
13:54.980 --> 13:55.920
I know a bunch of people
13:55.920 --> 13:56.720
in the Illinois
13:56.720 --> 13:57.160
Capitol,
13:57.280 --> 13:58.140
the Black Panther Party,
13:58.780 --> 13:59.520
who went and became
13:59.520 --> 13:59.940
ministers
13:59.940 --> 14:01.360
and then came back
14:01.360 --> 14:02.000
into Black Panther
14:02.000 --> 14:03.220
and then went and became
14:03.220 --> 14:03.480
minister
14:03.480 --> 14:04.760
by the time
14:04.760 --> 14:05.500
the Black Panther Party
14:05.500 --> 14:07.200
was destroyed
14:07.200 --> 14:07.900
by 74,
14:08.060 --> 14:08.520
the Panther Party
14:08.520 --> 14:08.840
and Brooklyn.
14:08.840 --> 14:09.600
So,
14:09.680 --> 14:10.440
I say on the West Side
14:10.440 --> 14:10.900
of Chicago,
14:11.040 --> 14:11.980
which is all I can speak for,
14:12.860 --> 14:13.940
the church and God
14:13.940 --> 14:15.400
was very much
14:15.400 --> 14:16.320
a part of who you were.
14:17.320 --> 14:18.180
In Indiana,
14:18.520 --> 14:19.860
we had a test.
14:20.060 --> 14:20.940
If a church allowed us
14:20.940 --> 14:21.980
to have a free breakfast
14:21.980 --> 14:22.500
program
14:22.500 --> 14:24.440
or a clothes distribution
14:24.440 --> 14:25.160
program,
14:25.720 --> 14:26.280
then that particular
14:26.280 --> 14:27.120
minister was part of
14:27.120 --> 14:27.600
what we call
14:27.600 --> 14:28.760
liberation theology.
14:29.640 --> 14:30.460
And one of our
14:30.460 --> 14:31.600
key people
14:31.600 --> 14:32.420
that we admired
14:32.420 --> 14:33.800
and had a poster
14:33.800 --> 14:34.620
was a guy named
14:34.620 --> 14:35.560
Reverend Charles Cohen.
14:36.220 --> 14:36.980
And he had a Bible
14:36.980 --> 14:38.340
with a big .45 caliber
14:38.340 --> 14:39.400
gun on.
14:40.100 --> 14:41.160
What we objected to
14:41.160 --> 14:42.260
was pacifism.
14:42.620 --> 14:43.480
Leave it to God
14:43.480 --> 14:44.260
to do everything.
14:45.040 --> 14:45.900
Don't get involved
14:45.900 --> 14:46.380
in anything.
14:46.520 --> 14:47.460
Just leave it to the Lord.
14:47.560 --> 14:48.080
He'll take care
14:48.080 --> 14:48.520
of everything.
14:48.660 --> 14:49.520
The pie-in-the-sky
14:49.520 --> 14:50.720
type preachers
14:50.720 --> 14:51.460
who are driving around
14:51.460 --> 14:52.260
in the Cadillacs
14:52.260 --> 14:53.780
while he's telling
14:53.780 --> 14:54.380
his flock,
14:54.800 --> 14:55.380
don't worry about
14:55.380 --> 14:56.900
getting a good car
14:56.900 --> 14:57.280
yourself.
14:57.360 --> 14:58.200
Give me all your money
14:58.200 --> 14:58.980
and keep moving.
14:59.140 --> 14:59.320
So,
14:59.780 --> 15:00.900
we made a distinction
15:00.900 --> 15:02.300
between pimping preachers
15:02.300 --> 15:04.820
and concerned
15:04.820 --> 15:05.600
true Christians,
15:05.720 --> 15:06.760
revolutionary Christians.
15:07.200 --> 15:08.020
We made a distinction
15:08.020 --> 15:09.200
between those
15:09.200 --> 15:09.740
who preach
15:09.740 --> 15:10.980
pacifism,
15:11.240 --> 15:11.760
surrender,
15:11.940 --> 15:12.660
don't do anything,
15:12.980 --> 15:13.760
turn the other cheek,
15:14.240 --> 15:14.980
let anything happen
15:14.980 --> 15:15.660
as God's will,
15:15.740 --> 15:16.800
whatever's going down,
15:17.160 --> 15:18.040
versus those who said
15:18.040 --> 15:18.780
God takes care
15:18.780 --> 15:19.380
of those who take
15:19.380 --> 15:19.860
themselves,
15:20.420 --> 15:21.200
or as the old song
15:21.200 --> 15:21.620
used to say,
15:21.700 --> 15:22.520
praise the Lord
15:22.520 --> 15:23.800
and pass the ammunition.
15:24.500 --> 15:24.780
So,
15:24.980 --> 15:25.760
we made a distinction
15:25.760 --> 15:26.720
between the two gods
15:26.720 --> 15:27.520
and the two religions
15:27.520 --> 15:28.220
that were out there.
15:28.220 --> 15:30.600
I have a question
15:30.600 --> 15:31.280
for both of you.
15:31.440 --> 15:31.660
First,
15:31.760 --> 15:32.300
were there any
15:32.300 --> 15:33.120
requirements,
15:33.320 --> 15:33.660
I guess,
15:33.740 --> 15:34.440
to join the
15:34.440 --> 15:35.720
Black Panther Party?
15:36.300 --> 15:37.080
The second question
15:37.080 --> 15:37.320
is,
15:37.560 --> 15:38.320
there was a
15:38.320 --> 15:40.200
rock group here
15:40.200 --> 15:40.780
by the name of
15:40.780 --> 15:41.120
Panthers
15:41.120 --> 15:41.920
a few years ago
15:41.920 --> 15:42.920
and they spread
15:42.920 --> 15:43.300
some,
15:44.320 --> 15:44.660
actually,
15:44.760 --> 15:45.300
I talked to them
15:45.300 --> 15:45.820
later just because
15:45.820 --> 15:47.380
I was wondering
15:47.380 --> 15:48.240
about their name
15:48.240 --> 15:48.800
and what it meant.
15:49.360 --> 15:50.220
And he didn't
15:50.220 --> 15:50.840
refer anything
15:50.840 --> 15:51.900
to the Black Panther Party
15:51.900 --> 15:52.500
back in the day,
15:52.500 --> 15:53.100
but he said,
15:53.980 --> 15:54.280
you know,
15:54.360 --> 15:55.020
I gave him my phone
15:55.020 --> 15:55.660
and he called me up
15:55.660 --> 15:56.120
and he called me
15:56.120 --> 15:56.660
a couple times
15:56.660 --> 15:57.060
and said that
15:57.060 --> 15:57.740
they were having a rally.
15:57.960 --> 15:58.620
I never attended
15:58.620 --> 15:59.760
but I just wanted to know
15:59.760 --> 16:00.760
if he knew anything
16:00.760 --> 16:01.400
about that
16:01.400 --> 16:01.980
and whether it was
16:01.980 --> 16:02.640
like a requirement
16:02.640 --> 16:03.680
to the Black Panther Party
16:03.680 --> 16:04.580
or whatever.
16:05.340 --> 16:05.700
Yeah,
16:05.740 --> 16:06.220
there were rules
16:06.220 --> 16:06.800
and regulations.
16:06.940 --> 16:07.080
In fact,
16:07.100 --> 16:08.860
they have a big long list.
16:09.080 --> 16:09.480
I should tell you
16:09.480 --> 16:09.740
there's something
16:09.740 --> 16:11.480
called the 10-10-10 rule
16:11.480 --> 16:12.820
and you couldn't,
16:12.960 --> 16:14.820
we were not against marijuana
16:14.820 --> 16:16.340
but when you were on duty
16:16.340 --> 16:17.460
you couldn't smoke marijuana,
16:17.600 --> 16:18.340
you couldn't be drunk,
16:18.860 --> 16:19.540
you couldn't insult
16:19.540 --> 16:20.320
and attack people.
16:20.800 --> 16:22.260
We took as our guide
16:22.260 --> 16:24.520
the Mao Zedong Handbook
16:24.520 --> 16:26.600
on Revolutionary Morality.
16:26.820 --> 16:27.940
You can't steal from the people,
16:28.060 --> 16:28.960
you can't take a penny,
16:29.100 --> 16:29.720
a dime.
16:30.200 --> 16:30.740
We are givers,
16:30.840 --> 16:31.340
not takers.
16:31.440 --> 16:32.580
We do not coerce
16:32.580 --> 16:33.420
the fellow workers.
16:33.540 --> 16:34.480
We only go after those
16:34.480 --> 16:36.640
like these rich type folks
16:36.640 --> 16:37.360
and we should have done that.
16:37.660 --> 16:38.800
There was a shakedown
16:38.800 --> 16:39.860
dynamic mention
16:39.860 --> 16:41.000
when we were to get food
16:41.000 --> 16:41.460
from people.
16:41.660 --> 16:41.680
Well,
16:41.700 --> 16:42.900
you don't want your storm bomb,
16:43.000 --> 16:43.180
right?
16:43.480 --> 16:44.180
So give us some eggs,
16:44.260 --> 16:44.860
give us some bacon,
16:45.080 --> 16:46.740
give us some salmon and eggs,
16:46.840 --> 16:47.080
I mean,
16:47.140 --> 16:47.840
or wherever that went.
16:48.300 --> 16:49.480
But there was a very,
16:49.680 --> 16:51.660
very almost ascetic rule.
16:51.660 --> 16:52.620
We did have
16:52.620 --> 16:53.900
an element of sexism,
16:53.980 --> 16:54.660
a very strong element
16:54.660 --> 16:55.340
of sexism
16:55.340 --> 16:58.000
within our female comrades.
16:58.520 --> 16:59.480
I really hated this theory
16:59.480 --> 17:00.180
that their job
17:00.180 --> 17:00.980
was to be back up
17:00.980 --> 17:03.980
for rest and recuperation.
17:04.600 --> 17:05.620
And one of our chief leaders
17:05.620 --> 17:06.900
in Indiana
17:06.900 --> 17:07.860
named Roz Frazier,
17:07.920 --> 17:08.900
she did a major job
17:08.900 --> 17:09.740
of turning us around
17:09.740 --> 17:11.080
on that the women
17:11.080 --> 17:11.900
are not to be just
17:11.900 --> 17:13.560
to help us get recuperated
17:13.560 --> 17:14.400
from doing our
17:14.400 --> 17:16.100
manly thing in the field
17:16.100 --> 17:16.900
because they have to
17:16.900 --> 17:17.360
stand in there
17:17.360 --> 17:18.060
side by side
17:18.060 --> 17:18.920
with their black gloves,
17:19.080 --> 17:19.320
berets,
17:19.440 --> 17:20.000
dark glasses,
17:20.000 --> 17:21.340
and leather things.
17:21.460 --> 17:22.260
So there was
17:22.260 --> 17:22.960
some structure there,
17:23.020 --> 17:23.620
very disciplined.
17:23.840 --> 17:24.120
It wasn't,
17:24.720 --> 17:25.200
you just come in
17:25.200 --> 17:26.180
and do what you wanted to do.
17:26.800 --> 17:27.860
And a lot of people
17:27.860 --> 17:28.380
come in and think
17:28.380 --> 17:29.360
it was just an excuse
17:29.360 --> 17:32.220
to be Mr. Tough Guy.
17:32.460 --> 17:33.580
I got a Black Panther car,
17:33.660 --> 17:34.540
I'm going to walk around here.
17:34.880 --> 17:35.620
No, the line was,
17:35.700 --> 17:36.900
you're here to serve the people.
17:37.320 --> 17:38.240
You're the oxen
17:38.240 --> 17:39.040
to be written
17:39.040 --> 17:40.280
by the people.
17:40.540 --> 17:41.340
And we scare away
17:41.340 --> 17:42.460
a lot of shucking
17:42.460 --> 17:43.320
and jiving people.
17:43.320 --> 17:44.760
We call that half-steppers
17:44.760 --> 17:46.000
because of that
17:46.000 --> 17:46.780
kind of discipline.
17:49.240 --> 17:50.040
Yeah, they were called
17:50.040 --> 17:50.780
Rally Panthers
17:50.780 --> 17:51.460
in Chicago
17:51.460 --> 17:52.400
to come around
17:52.400 --> 17:52.940
for the rally.
17:53.920 --> 17:56.660
And the discipline
17:56.660 --> 17:58.440
was one thing
17:58.440 --> 17:59.380
that kept people straight,
17:59.640 --> 18:01.140
kept people from going.
18:01.180 --> 18:01.700
I've never done
18:01.700 --> 18:02.380
the Panther Party.
18:02.740 --> 18:03.400
And I think
18:03.400 --> 18:04.820
when I came into Chicago,
18:05.640 --> 18:05.940
let's see,
18:06.000 --> 18:07.580
69.
18:08.480 --> 18:09.620
Yeah, summer of 69,
18:09.780 --> 18:10.300
when I really started
18:10.300 --> 18:11.180
working for Panther Party,
18:11.180 --> 18:13.380
they were so popular
18:13.380 --> 18:15.780
that it was like a clique.
18:16.200 --> 18:16.640
It was something
18:16.640 --> 18:17.700
you couldn't get in really.
18:17.920 --> 18:18.120
I mean,
18:18.140 --> 18:18.580
just telling you
18:18.580 --> 18:19.120
the way it was.
18:19.460 --> 18:21.120
You got your theory,
18:21.380 --> 18:22.200
you got your ideas
18:22.200 --> 18:23.340
of what you're supposed
18:23.340 --> 18:23.860
to be like.
18:24.260 --> 18:25.020
But in reality,
18:25.460 --> 18:26.040
the Panther Party
18:26.040 --> 18:26.920
in the summer of 69
18:26.920 --> 18:27.720
was so popular
18:27.720 --> 18:30.220
that you kind of had to,
18:31.620 --> 18:32.180
you know,
18:32.220 --> 18:33.260
there was a bunch of hoops
18:33.260 --> 18:33.960
you had to went through.
18:34.260 --> 18:35.200
One of the hoops
18:35.200 --> 18:36.040
for sure was
18:36.040 --> 18:36.940
you had to commit
18:36.940 --> 18:38.040
some revolutionary action.
18:38.860 --> 18:39.780
That meant you had to show
18:39.780 --> 18:40.700
that you were bold enough
18:40.700 --> 18:41.260
to do something
18:41.260 --> 18:42.360
that was really hard to do.
18:43.280 --> 18:43.540
You know,
18:43.540 --> 18:44.260
I'm being as vague
18:44.260 --> 18:44.860
as I can
18:44.860 --> 18:46.940
because I would hate
18:46.940 --> 18:48.020
to be arrested
18:48.020 --> 18:48.940
for some of those stuff
18:48.940 --> 18:50.280
without hoops.
18:51.220 --> 18:51.580
So,
18:52.060 --> 18:52.280
I mean,
18:52.320 --> 18:53.700
that was just part
18:53.700 --> 18:54.440
of being revolutionary,
18:54.660 --> 18:54.820
right?
18:54.900 --> 18:55.760
You do not obey,
18:56.380 --> 18:57.120
you obey the rules
18:57.120 --> 18:57.820
of the Panther Party,
18:57.900 --> 18:59.140
but the rules of the society
18:59.140 --> 19:00.220
are not necessarily yours,
19:00.800 --> 19:01.080
right?
19:01.340 --> 19:01.720
So,
19:01.880 --> 19:02.960
if you want to go downtown
19:02.960 --> 19:03.660
to Marshall Field
19:03.660 --> 19:05.880
and lift $100 worth of goods,
19:06.000 --> 19:06.200
hey,
19:06.800 --> 19:08.740
this proves that
19:08.740 --> 19:09.500
you're a revolutionist now.
19:09.500 --> 19:11.900
expropriation.
19:12.160 --> 19:12.380
Yeah,
19:12.560 --> 19:13.660
expropriation of what
19:13.660 --> 19:14.780
belonged to the people anyway,
19:15.200 --> 19:16.120
not considered a seal.
19:16.680 --> 19:16.980
So,
19:18.040 --> 19:19.020
there were things like that
19:19.020 --> 19:20.500
that determined
19:20.500 --> 19:21.920
who was and who was not.
19:22.060 --> 19:22.980
The other thing was,
19:23.480 --> 19:24.340
West Side of Chicago
19:24.340 --> 19:26.040
was dominated
19:26.040 --> 19:27.040
by group police
19:27.040 --> 19:29.800
and the evidence
19:29.800 --> 19:31.140
and mockers.
19:32.740 --> 19:34.640
And he had to be tough enough
19:34.640 --> 19:36.520
to face a very tough reality.
19:37.880 --> 19:38.760
West Side of Chicago
19:38.760 --> 19:40.980
was a rough place to be.
19:40.980 --> 19:43.060
So,
19:43.620 --> 19:44.520
being a Panther Party,
19:44.640 --> 19:45.800
you put yourself on the line
19:45.800 --> 19:47.160
against some very
19:47.160 --> 19:48.100
oracle
19:48.100 --> 19:49.840
facts.
19:50.960 --> 19:51.120
You know,
19:51.160 --> 19:51.820
I mean police
19:51.820 --> 19:53.320
that would shoot
19:53.320 --> 19:55.100
and kill
19:55.100 --> 19:55.760
for no reason.
19:57.660 --> 19:58.040
It was,
19:58.120 --> 19:58.360
I mean,
19:58.720 --> 19:59.360
some of the things
19:59.360 --> 20:00.520
police did,
20:00.580 --> 20:01.240
you would not believe
20:01.240 --> 20:01.700
in place.
20:02.860 --> 20:03.620
Maybe today,
20:03.700 --> 20:04.060
I don't know.
20:05.060 --> 20:05.340
So,
20:06.020 --> 20:06.940
and then of course
20:06.940 --> 20:08.100
the mafia was there too.
20:09.480 --> 20:12.840
The Alvin then basically
20:12.840 --> 20:13.860
was a way
20:13.860 --> 20:14.500
which the mafia
20:14.500 --> 20:15.940
controlled the community
20:15.940 --> 20:17.960
and the police
20:17.960 --> 20:18.640
were basically,
20:18.880 --> 20:20.220
most police on the West Side
20:20.220 --> 20:22.060
were on two payrolls.
20:23.120 --> 20:23.900
The city's payroll
20:23.900 --> 20:25.140
and the mafia's payroll.
20:26.980 --> 20:27.220
So,
20:27.320 --> 20:28.160
that was some of the reality
20:28.160 --> 20:28.920
we had to deal with.
20:31.020 --> 20:32.060
The one of the Alvin's
20:32.060 --> 20:32.480
is murder.
20:33.560 --> 20:34.000
Yeah,
20:34.060 --> 20:34.900
Ben Lewis,
20:35.500 --> 20:36.080
63,
20:36.720 --> 20:38.160
shot in his head,
20:38.460 --> 20:39.220
back of his head,
20:39.340 --> 20:40.000
handcuffed,
20:40.780 --> 20:41.800
with police handcuffs,
20:41.920 --> 20:42.100
which,
20:42.320 --> 20:43.040
there's a lot of papers
20:43.040 --> 20:43.740
on put that in,
20:43.800 --> 20:43.960
right?
20:44.080 --> 20:45.160
With police handcuffs,
20:46.320 --> 20:46.580
you know,
20:46.660 --> 20:47.560
the first black elected
20:47.560 --> 20:49.360
Alvin from the West Side
20:49.360 --> 20:49.860
of Chicago
20:49.860 --> 20:50.420
was murder.
20:52.720 --> 20:53.960
That was 1960.
20:54.420 --> 20:55.100
It was about January,
20:55.700 --> 20:57.320
late January of the 23rd.
20:57.320 --> 20:57.600
Wait.
20:57.820 --> 20:58.960
They never found
20:58.960 --> 20:59.600
the court
20:59.600 --> 21:00.460
or sentence
21:00.460 --> 21:02.340
where it did.
21:02.960 --> 21:03.400
Yeah,
21:03.400 --> 21:04.100
and this guy
21:04.100 --> 21:05.200
who just died,
21:05.400 --> 21:05.760
Polar,
21:06.440 --> 21:07.040
the Republican,
21:07.740 --> 21:09.080
he gets the newspaper
21:09.080 --> 21:09.620
and says,
21:09.960 --> 21:10.300
Polar,
21:10.560 --> 21:10.940
Polar,
21:11.260 --> 21:12.100
he gets the newspaper
21:12.100 --> 21:12.800
and says that
21:12.800 --> 21:15.260
obviously he was killed
21:15.260 --> 21:16.060
by the Polini's
21:16.060 --> 21:18.100
Democratic Party
21:18.100 --> 21:18.560
triumphal
21:18.560 --> 21:19.060
with the rules
21:19.060 --> 21:19.680
of the West Side.
21:19.680 --> 21:20.480
and
21:20.480 --> 21:23.160
there's a quick
21:23.160 --> 21:24.040
black Alvin.
21:25.080 --> 21:25.480
None of them
21:25.480 --> 21:26.140
open their mouth.
21:26.560 --> 21:26.880
Well,
21:26.940 --> 21:27.740
the silent tricks.
21:27.960 --> 21:29.280
They never said a word.
21:29.460 --> 21:30.460
Not a mumbling word.
21:30.660 --> 21:31.560
That's the kind of thing
21:31.560 --> 21:32.300
that makes people
21:32.300 --> 21:32.700
revolutions.
21:33.200 --> 21:33.560
Yes.
21:33.700 --> 21:34.240
Because the people
21:34.240 --> 21:34.780
who are elected,
21:35.000 --> 21:36.540
supposedly black representatives,
21:36.680 --> 21:37.480
take the damn mouth
21:37.480 --> 21:37.640
out.
21:37.640 --> 21:38.600
Even when one of their own
21:38.600 --> 21:39.060
gets killed,
21:39.500 --> 21:40.340
we don't pick up.
21:41.100 --> 21:42.160
So that's pushing people
21:42.160 --> 21:42.840
in the revolution.
21:42.840 --> 21:50.400
That was Dr. Joan Price
21:50.400 --> 21:51.240
talking about
21:51.240 --> 21:52.120
how the political
21:52.120 --> 21:53.820
situation in Chicago
21:53.820 --> 21:54.820
had become
21:54.820 --> 21:56.120
so corrupt
21:56.120 --> 21:57.300
that it was actually
21:57.300 --> 21:58.420
pushing people
21:58.420 --> 22:00.020
toward the revolution.
22:02.300 --> 22:03.660
Thanks for listening
22:03.660 --> 22:05.020
to this podcast
22:05.020 --> 22:05.660
called
22:05.660 --> 22:08.160
Dancing with the Black Panthers.
22:08.440 --> 22:09.760
We'll be releasing
22:09.760 --> 22:10.460
part three
22:10.460 --> 22:11.340
in a few weeks.
22:11.340 --> 22:12.780
That final segment
22:12.780 --> 22:13.500
will include
22:13.500 --> 22:14.400
our speaker's
22:14.400 --> 22:15.540
unique understanding
22:15.540 --> 22:17.020
of why the Panther Party
22:17.020 --> 22:17.760
dissipated
22:17.760 --> 22:19.600
in the early 1970s
22:19.600 --> 22:21.320
as well as
22:21.320 --> 22:22.860
what we can do now
22:22.860 --> 22:23.880
to continue
22:23.880 --> 22:25.240
the actions
22:25.240 --> 22:26.560
that the Panther Party
22:26.560 --> 22:27.780
set into motion
22:27.780 --> 22:29.540
and what they
22:29.540 --> 22:30.400
could have done
22:30.400 --> 22:31.040
if
22:31.040 --> 22:33.560
I'm forward to having
22:33.560 --> 22:34.780
you join us then.
