From Middle-Eastern Battlefields to the Moderator’s Chair: Rev. Mike Thomason’s Journey

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Friends, welcome to another edition of our podcast, and today my guest is the
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Reverend Mike Thomason, who is the newly appointed moderator of the Northwestern Synod.
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Mike, great to have you. Thanks for coming in.
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Great to be here, Lawrence, and wonderful to chat to you.
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Yeah, good. I hope you still feel that way by the end of it.
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We'll see how we go.
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We will. um how about introducing yourself mike where where you've come from
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and uh and uh how you've got to where you
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Are absolutely so um it's it's a long story so i hope you're buckled in um i'm
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originally from the northwest so grew up in swinton in salford um as a member
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of worsley road united reform church which is still going strong uh,
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but then from there trained for ministry at northern college so i didn't go
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very far with placements across greater manchester in a variety of different
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churches from there was then called to uh,
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bolton west pastor in the northwest manchester district right it was um,
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and served at new chapel lee lane adlington and somerset road churches.
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What what what years are we
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Talking so that was 2002 to 2006 and and you'll probably notice from those list
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of churches uh apart from new chapel the rest have closed or in the process
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of closing which had nothing to do with me of course not,
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and then from there was called to army chaplaincy and served as an army chaplain for 13 years right so um,
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upon the completion of training we were posted out to germany to work with the
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engineers and remy and and during that time was sent to iraq in 2006,
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which was a unique time and then after there we were posted to abingdon in oxfordshire
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then down to Perbright in Surrey,
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very different postings, and then back to Germany for a couple of years.
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And they said a couple of years, but we ended up there six on that time. Also with a little...
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A sojourn to afghanistan and the worst part of one of the postings was i had
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to go to new zealand for three months oh.
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That must have been
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Helped it was horrific um paid for by the services but yeah spent uh the last
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six years of my ministry in the army were in germany working with the rifles
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then as garrison chaplain
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then a senior chaplain 20 armored brigade which covered chaplaincy across germany
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as well as operational deployments
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in various places where we were and we weren't obviously um but also working
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as senior chaplain nato for the very
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high readiness joint task force which was quite a,
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special time then felt a real call to come out of that um so i was asked to
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go into a desk job or was told to be going into a desk job,
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but felt that i'm a pastorate minister i can push papers around i can do that but my heart is people,
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and i wanted to be involved in with people so was then called back to a church
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uh a local church in surrey in the south of england,
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but that wasn't a straight path because i i went for an interview at a church
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and i'm not saying where because it wouldn't be fair but i thought it ticked
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all the boxes i wanted which was uh very rural
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nowhere near the military and just a urc not an lep of any sort okay so,
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and as soon as I walked into the town, I knew it was wrong.
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Really? So you know where God's at.
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But the church I ended up with was suburbia, commuting for London,
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next to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, and a URC Methodist LEP of many years.
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But a thriving church that had activities happening all day,
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every day, about one and a half thousand people through the building each week.
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A thriving congregation, but just needed some cajoling and some guidance and
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some love to get it back on track.
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So in the eight years there, we saw some phenomenal initiatives.
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We saw growth um and i'm i'm delighted to say you know that's going on,
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still today and the final thing we did when i was there which wasn't planned when i went we had,
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some roof issues churches always seem to have roof issues it's never the doors
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and it's never the car park it's always the roof yeah um and with a roof you
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kind of start adding zeros to the project um,
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and the initial quote for the whole project was about half a million,
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when we got to the stage where we then had a proper quote it came in at two million
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goodness because the scaffold itself was half a million due to the size of the
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building um but through active fundraising as a congregation and applying for
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grants we raised the two million wow and that's that's happening now i was delighted
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to leave as the scaffolding went up,
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so so good time it was perfect time yeah.
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So mike i want to i want to ask you as you reflect back on your on your time in the army
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I mean, the places you've been, some of them sounded quite dodgy.
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And I wondered how, to what extent those experiences in those places have formed
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and shaped your ministry now.
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I think the answer, they were fundamental to forming who I am now.
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On my first time, I went to Iraq and it was an interesting tour.
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Um i was injured so if you see me rubbing my shoulder it is a war wound and it's a genuine war wound.
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Um but it's but those experiences shape you and one of the things i questioned
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time and again in my first post in the army was what am i here for what is the point of a chaplain,
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what is the point of just being and i didn't quite get it i really didn't get
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it i'd i'd learn in that first post how to justify why I was a United Reformed
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Church minister and not an Anglican or a Methodist.
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But I couldn't quite work out what a chaplain meant until the day I was leaving the unit.
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And I went round and I was talking to one of the corporals and I said to him,
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I'm not sure what I've achieved in the last two years of being here.
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I'm a bit uncertain. And he sat me down and he said, Padre, get a grip,
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which is a wonderful army phrase. He said, and pin your ears back Cause I'm going to tell you.
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And, um, he said, what you did is you were there.
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He said, when we were in Iraq, every single day, you came to the QM's tent,
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the quartermaster's tent, and you said hello to us. You said,
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good morning. You offered to make us a drink.
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And sometimes we said yes. And sometimes we chatted to you. Other times we said
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no. And you sat and read the paper, but you were there and you walked alongside
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us and you did it because God had called you to do it. And for no other reason.
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And that realization that the relationships were so strong that actually just
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being there, being present within that community made a difference.
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And when you think of our churches, actually, the disappointment when a church
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closes isn't just from within the church.
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It's from within the outside, the whole community, because there's something
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about presence and being.
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And certainly in my last pastorate not only was i responsible for high cross church
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but actually ensured we had a presence and were known in the town so that when
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somebody walked through the town with a polo shirt with the church logo on they
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knew what it meant it meant safety it meant community it meant care so that people would come,
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and talk and know that they could get help that being is so important.
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It is and and i think we forget it so much so so easily as because churches,
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after all, you know, Jesus simply by being wherever he pitched up was good news.
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Things started happening just because he was there.
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It's that curb appeal, isn't it? When you walk up to the church building,
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what does it say? What's on the notice? And we need to look at things with new eyes.
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And it's almost dressing the set to allow the conversations of faith to take
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place. I have many bugbears, but one of the things I love is pulpit bingo.
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I don't a preacher you get behind the pulpit and it's what's in the pulpit because,
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at your own churches go and have a look at your church what's stored in the
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pulpit I went to one church and they were clearly pyromaniacs because there
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was about six boxes of matches um but the same church I went another day and,
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I got the jackpot because there was a box of celebrations there uneaten,
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and it was brilliant but it was just this this thing of thinking about what
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we present what do we say to the person coming to lead worship by what's there.
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And that then rolls on into what we say to the community.
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They expect people to come to us, the community come to us. We're getting it
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wrong. We need as a church to be going out to them.
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And the classic example for that is,
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I've been involved with the Air Cadets for many years, and as I move here to
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be moderator, I'm going to be the chaplain to Horwich Air Cadets.
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But there's an opportunity there.
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Our churches don't have young people. So actually, rather than bemoan the fact
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we don't have young people, how do we connect with young people?
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Well, actually, we go out of our churches and go where they are,
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and that might be assisting in uniformed organizations, youth groups,
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various different things.
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So when I was in Camberley, I said, yes, we didn't have a youth group,
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but twice a week I met with 80 young people and had conversations that mattered.
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Yeah.
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And that's taking a church there and being present in the community. Yeah.
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Let's talk about your journey to becoming the moderator.
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Now, I know that you've shared that and it was a process that in some sense
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the whole synod has shared in because of the discernment process. Yeah.
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What I'm interested in, though, is what were you being told during this process
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about why we, as a synod, were convinced that you were the right person for this post?
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What was being fed back to you, Mike, we see this in you or that in you?
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And it's, it's an interesting question because 12 months, well,
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just over 12 months ago when it was muted that I should consider applying,
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being nominated for the moderator of Northwestern Synod,
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I laughed and I left for about two days because I said, no way.
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Because certainly two or three years ago, I said to a moderator at the time,
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I have no intention of being a moderator and I mean it. Yeah.
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Says he sat here as a moderator.
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Yeah, I believe you.
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And it was a spring school in Wessex Synod last year that somebody,
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and the person who I think it was, doesn't think it was them.
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So it says how insignificant the conversation was to them.
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Yeah. Said to me, you know, Northwestern is becoming vacant.
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You should really consider it.
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It'd be fabulous because of having grown up there, all the skills you've got,
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what you've done, and you're able to see things in a critical way,
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but also a way that will pastorally grow.
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Right. And I said, no, it's not happening.
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And I went home and said to my wife what had been said and she had that Vicar
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of Dibley moment. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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And again, Sue, a couple of days later, came back and went, well,
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actually, I could see why that would work.
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But you also have trusted friends, don't you, that you say? And I rang up a
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colleague who used to be a minister in the Northwest.
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I'm not telling you who it is because I don't want you to go and hunt him down
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at some point. And he said to me, he said, in the most wonderful way,
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He said, well, it's not the daftest thing I've heard.
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And it was one of those. And I reflected on it and I said, well,
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if I'm nominated, I'll consider it.
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And I was nominated.
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And so consider that meeting with a vacancy and just being able to share with
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the panel my views and discern together what was right was really important.
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And I confess, and I think it's the best thing to confess is to say, I wasn't convinced.
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I thought, actually, I came away thinking, I really hope that this is where
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God's calling me, but we'll wait to see.
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And when I had the phone call from the general secretary, from John Bradbury,
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there was a moment of stunned silence of are you sure,
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um and i and i said to my wife quite openly until i get called to that role
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i don't know whether i'll take it,
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but when he said yes the panel would like to nominate you as the next moderator
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i knew at that moment it was the right thing so i was talking with a friend
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who was there when i was he laid on hands when i was ordained in 2002.
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And I said to him, I said, you know, the moment I knew that God was calling
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to me to ministry was that moment of the ordination prayer and the laying on of hands.
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Not when I was discerning it through assessment conference, not at college,
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not through the process of going.
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To a church.
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It was that moment that I was 100% convinced. And it's by God's grace that I do this work.
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It's great to hear that story, Mike. It's important and encouraging.
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But i do notice that you've carefully avoided asking my question which was what
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was being fed back to you to say we see this or that or the other
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It's an interesting one um and i think there's,
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There's not a huge amount that's been fed back, actually, which is interesting.
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But the general secretary did say, he said.
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What is good is your breadth of experience, the breadth of doing different things,
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your people management skills, having run teams of clergy,
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which were interesting in the military from all different levels,
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having dealt with a variety of situations.
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But actually, that pastoral care and support that comes across, I believe that.
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Working together starts if there's a problem have a cup of tea and talk about it,
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back to basics fight playing yo-yo with emails is what we do it doesn't help
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actually pick up the phone go and have a cup of tea with somebody and that helps
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and i and the panel got that,
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that actually i'm somebody that wants to be with the churches not to rule over
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them and the role of minister of moderator is really simple it's about being
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a minister to the ministers and a friend of the churches.
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And you can only achieve that by walking alongside and journeying with.
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And that's really important. So at the moment in the first couple of months
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I'm going to visit every single minister in the synod that's,
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in pastoral charge to make sure I understand them and get them and understand
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the issues that they feel and face.
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But also getting around to worship with a variety of churches because actually
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it's that pastoral heart and that is at the center of my ministry.
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I wasn't involved in your appointment at all. I would have been an active enthusiast
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because you and I have known each other, I think.
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When I was training at Northern.
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Had I been asked, and I wasn't, and I'm not offended, I hasten to add,
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I would have said that one of your gifts that I think is really important in
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the United Reformed Church and
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is disappointingly rare is that you're not afraid of difficult situations.
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No.
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Your response to a difficult situation, you walk towards them.
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Yeah. And fearlessly, I would have used that word, fearlessly.
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Do you think that's a fair?
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I think it's fair, and I think it would also be fair to say,
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if we brush things under the carpet, things only get worse. So actually walking
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into a difficult situation and talking about it over that cup of tea helps bring
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it out in the open and means that we can work a way forward.
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But the most important thing in anything like that is respecting each other's view.
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And somebody, unfortunately, in the end has to make the final decision.
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And I'm discovering a lot of times that's generally me that's got to make a final decision.
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But it is about ensuring we make a decision that's right and that everyone has
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agreed to and then sticking to it.
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And it works well. And certainly in local church ministry, when you have a big
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church and everyone's got their own agendas, trying to bring that together is interesting.
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When we enter those difficult conversations, we do them with the love and grace
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of God to ensure we get the right outcome. And that's the important thing.
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And the other important thing is I'm not always right. So what I think might
00:16:31.637 --> 00:16:34.677
be the way through it might not be the actual way through it and together we
00:16:34.677 --> 00:16:36.018
discern that and work it out.
00:16:36.384 --> 00:16:41.657
That's the other part of of what i would have wanted to say is you walk towards
00:16:41.657 --> 00:16:46.847
a situation but you walk towards it in order to be pastoral yeah
00:16:47.467 --> 00:16:54.333
not not it's not a power move oh gosh never and and i think you know that combination of a fearlessness
00:16:54.855 --> 00:17:02.817
with with a pastoral heart is is what i what i personally I'm delighted that you bring to the role.
00:17:02.817 --> 00:17:04.027
Thank you. That's very gracious.
00:17:04.538 --> 00:17:06.607
When you look at the Synod,
00:17:08.767 --> 00:17:12.160
from the very beginning of your ministry as our moderator,
00:17:12.874 --> 00:17:14.273
what's the landscape like
00:17:14.923 --> 00:17:19.816
I think it's a bit like the uh physical landscape of the northwest a little bumpy in places,
00:17:21.136 --> 00:17:24.206
and that's one of the i have to confess that is one of the absolute joys of
00:17:24.206 --> 00:17:27.607
coming back to the northwest is the physical landscape stunning um,
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:34.241
but i think over the last few years the synod has been through some tricky times,
00:17:34.816 --> 00:17:38.516
some difficult times i remember the synod years back under Keith Forecast,
00:17:38.516 --> 00:17:39.558
which many will remember.
00:17:40.796 --> 00:17:45.433
And it was through Keith that I was accepted for training and came into training for ministry.
00:17:46.106 --> 00:17:50.166
The Synod was a very different place. We had significantly more churches.
00:17:50.166 --> 00:17:52.149
We had significantly more members.
00:17:53.815 --> 00:17:58.279
And we had significantly more ministers. So when I was first ordained in Bolton,
00:17:58.587 --> 00:18:02.215
there was five of us just in Bolton, which is unbelievable.
00:18:04.038 --> 00:18:07.966
But the number of ministers we have coming, churches are still looking after
00:18:07.966 --> 00:18:11.184
the same number of members as we were back then.
00:18:11.706 --> 00:18:15.003
It's just that the members have spread out, the churches have spread out,
00:18:15.537 --> 00:18:17.105
and we're trying to juggle it all.
00:18:18.062 --> 00:18:21.530
The landscape's tricky as well because there is a real sense I've picked up
00:18:21.530 --> 00:18:28.390
within the synod from the churches of the synod doing to the churches rather
00:18:28.390 --> 00:18:30.310
than guiding the churches.
00:18:30.884 --> 00:18:35.750
And that in itself being an ad-ha congregationalist and therefore comes with
00:18:36.190 --> 00:18:42.151
an inbuilt stubbornness, which is wonderful, is the sense that there is the us and them.
00:18:43.219 --> 00:18:48.531
And as I made it really clear at the Synod meeting a couple of weeks ago, the Synod is you.
00:18:48.966 --> 00:18:53.470
The Synod is every single member of the United Reformed Church in the Northwest.
00:18:54.167 --> 00:18:59.612
And we can only operate as this overarching organization by your grace.
00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:03.955
And if we don't have the support of the members of the Synod, we cannot do.
00:19:04.239 --> 00:19:09.237
But what the Synod as an organization does is to try and take away some of that pressure.
00:19:10.027 --> 00:19:13.510
And I think that's what was trying to be achieved a few years ago with missional
00:19:13.510 --> 00:19:16.006
partnerships and the centralization of those things.
00:19:16.598 --> 00:19:21.248
And other synods are now looking at Northwest and saying, this model's really good.
00:19:21.718 --> 00:19:25.390
Because actually, ministers' expenses being paid from the centre to take the
00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:26.819
pressure off local churches.
00:19:27.098 --> 00:19:30.476
Mansi's being managed centrally to take the pressure off local churches.
00:19:31.270 --> 00:19:33.866
Cars and communications being managed centrally to take the pressure off.
00:19:34.714 --> 00:19:37.553
I think the difference is the way that other churches,
00:19:38.580 --> 00:19:43.306
synods are going about it is more pastoral. And I sensed there was,
00:19:43.686 --> 00:19:47.555
or I sensed within the churches in the synod, there's a real sense of having been done to.
00:19:48.158 --> 00:19:49.396
I think that's fair.
00:19:49.396 --> 00:19:53.276
And I think we need to reflect on that and consider where that goes.
00:19:53.276 --> 00:19:55.186
And the synod is not top down.
00:19:55.566 --> 00:19:58.776
We're a congregational Presbyterian church at heart. We bottom up.
00:19:58.973 --> 00:20:00.854
So we respond to the needs.
00:20:01.800 --> 00:20:05.206
And the resolution we passed last week about spending monies from the sale of
00:20:05.206 --> 00:20:07.709
churches is a prime example of that.
00:20:07.936 --> 00:20:10.763
Some people thought this was about the synod wanting the money.
00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:15.586
No, it's the absolute opposite. This is the synod wanting you to spend the money
00:20:15.586 --> 00:20:17.050
for the glory of God's kingdom.
00:20:17.666 --> 00:20:20.800
And by the synod holding it, it forces, hopefully you'd spend it.
00:20:21.306 --> 00:20:23.986
And the prime example is we still have over a million pounds,
00:20:23.986 --> 00:20:28.768
1.4 million in the man's scheme that's reserved for churches to spend.
00:20:29.499 --> 00:20:33.011
And we need to spend our money to glorify the kingdom of God.
00:20:33.447 --> 00:20:35.339
Because actually the rainy day is here.
00:20:35.832 --> 00:20:39.896
We're seeing reduced numbers. We're seeing people consider different things,
00:20:39.896 --> 00:20:44.976
but we're also seeing that growth, that shoot of growth, that people are asking questions.
00:20:44.976 --> 00:20:50.216
So let's spend the money to try and engage with that and to see how we can develop
00:20:50.216 --> 00:20:52.166
then communities and faith communities.
00:20:52.646 --> 00:20:55.999
That are strong. That's helpful. And I think...
00:20:57.903 --> 00:21:03.807
If the churches hear what you're saying and believe it,
00:21:04.706 --> 00:21:06.967
That's a powerful message.
00:21:07.727 --> 00:21:14.511
Because you're right, it's been a combination historically. It's a combination of nurture and nature.
00:21:15.327 --> 00:21:19.399
We are fiercely independent as a people. That's the nature.
00:21:19.881 --> 00:21:25.257
The nurture is the history and and there is a sense in which um stuff has been
00:21:25.257 --> 00:21:32.691
done too by the synod and the reason yeah the reason why i hear what you say as quite powerful
00:21:33.376 --> 00:21:39.947
is that um yes it's true that everybody makes up the synod but the synod as
00:21:39.947 --> 00:21:46.478
an organization is the one that holds for example the money which is power it is and
00:21:47.471 --> 00:21:56.317
and what i hear you saying is that the synod is here to use that power as a servant of the church.
00:21:56.317 --> 00:21:59.911
Absolutely. In theological terms, you know, we could talk for hours,
00:22:00.487 --> 00:22:01.942
Lawrence, but mission is.
00:22:03.662 --> 00:22:07.377
Is everything we do. It's how we use our buildings, how we maintain our buildings,
00:22:07.377 --> 00:22:12.009
how we engage on the internet, how we present our services, how we worship,
00:22:12.311 --> 00:22:14.430
how we engage with the community. It's all mission.
00:22:15.034 --> 00:22:18.128
So all the money we have should be used for that. And we just need to make sure
00:22:18.517 --> 00:22:20.647
that we make it easier for people to access it.
00:22:20.647 --> 00:22:24.247
And I will say quite openly, if you're having problems accessing it from the
00:22:24.247 --> 00:22:28.847
Synod, send me an email and we'll see what we can do to make it simpler because
00:22:28.847 --> 00:22:30.525
that's what it's about um,
00:22:31.227 --> 00:22:36.757
we as a synod we're not here to line barns and store riches because that's not
00:22:36.757 --> 00:22:41.091
what we do and the bible tells us that really clearly yeah but i think the other thing to say is,
00:22:41.956 --> 00:22:48.017
one of the things i've heard really loud and clear is the desire to review where
00:22:48.017 --> 00:22:52.507
we are yes um i'm pleased to say that synodic have agreed we're going to do
00:22:52.507 --> 00:22:55.336
that so we're in the process of trying to find someone um,
00:22:56.307 --> 00:23:01.130
that will review missional partnerships review the structures to see how we
00:23:01.304 --> 00:23:06.267
move ahead review doesn't mean change review means having a blooming good look
00:23:06.267 --> 00:23:08.427
at it and seeing what works and what doesn't yeah um,
00:23:09.507 --> 00:23:13.547
and it's important we have somebody from outside the synod that does that so they're totally um.
00:23:14.806 --> 00:23:21.117
Unbiased and and it excites me that um synod exactly agreed that you know unanimously
00:23:21.117 --> 00:23:25.077
because within the um the construction of missional partnerships,
00:23:25.077 --> 00:23:27.042
there was agreement it would be reviewed in time.
00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.701
And it's been 10 years. So the time has come.
00:23:30.527 --> 00:23:33.491
So next year we'll look at that. I have no idea what the outcome will be,
00:23:33.915 --> 00:23:37.381
but whoever does it, it will involve a lot of listening.
00:23:37.805 --> 00:23:42.599
I still maintain that in both the Synod and more likely in the denomination,
00:23:43.551 --> 00:23:49.956
The only way that we can expand the pool of ministry available is to enable
00:23:49.956 --> 00:23:54.556
and free up our elders, who after all are ordained ministers.
00:23:54.556 --> 00:23:56.236
Ordained ministers within the denomination.
00:23:58.236 --> 00:24:01.096
And that's one of the questions I think, you know, I don't think it's one of
00:24:01.096 --> 00:24:04.096
the questions I've been asking as I go around. As a synod, what could we do
00:24:04.096 --> 00:24:05.262
to make your life easier?
00:24:06.144 --> 00:24:10.856
And there's got to be an acceptance that for me a real good acceptance that
00:24:10.856 --> 00:24:12.576
actually administering the expenses,
00:24:13.070 --> 00:24:16.916
of the missional partnership is a good thing the minister but within that you've
00:24:16.916 --> 00:24:21.326
got a rare people have to realize that this price increases the mileage allowance
00:24:21.326 --> 00:24:23.999
has gone up water aids have gone up everything's gone up,
00:24:24.464 --> 00:24:27.556
so it's going to mean that we have to increase what we request from the churches
00:24:27.556 --> 00:24:28.840
for that because everything's gone up,
00:24:29.427 --> 00:24:32.176
and the expenses that are paid out, there's no profit in that.
00:24:32.176 --> 00:24:34.566
It purely goes out to pay the expenses.
00:24:34.566 --> 00:24:35.376
Money in and out.
00:24:35.376 --> 00:24:38.956
And it's, but the cost of life has gone up. And if you were administering that
00:24:38.956 --> 00:24:42.632
as a local church, you just have to work out a way to absorb that cost.
00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:46.496
But that question then comes to the Synod rather than you worrying about it,
00:24:46.496 --> 00:24:50.316
Weston. And that frees up, hopefully, elders to do things. Yes.
00:24:51.433 --> 00:24:56.096
And I hope as well some of the Synod staff that we have free up elders to do things.
00:24:56.496 --> 00:25:02.166
Yeah. With the safeguarding, with buildings, with trust, it frees up elders
00:25:02.166 --> 00:25:06.686
to get on and to work out what ministry means within the context they find themselves.
00:25:06.686 --> 00:25:11.774
So I've got two real questions for you, Mike. The first one is...
00:25:12.830 --> 00:25:17.632
Given that this is not just a Northwest Synod story at all, it's not even a
00:25:17.632 --> 00:25:24.520
URC, uniquely a URC story, but so many of our churches these days,
00:25:24.984 --> 00:25:27.637
the whole kind of post-Christendom thing,
00:25:28.398 --> 00:25:34.132
where they're at sea because the landscape doesn't look the way that it did.
00:25:34.132 --> 00:25:37.314
And it's not the same landscape that they inherited.
00:25:38.011 --> 00:25:46.632
And the levels of anxiety and, uh, I call it survivalism, you know,
00:25:46.632 --> 00:25:48.326
how are we going to get through?
00:25:48.495 --> 00:25:52.291
How are we going to survive the next, particularly to the next generation?
00:25:54.052 --> 00:26:00.441
How do you help churches? How have you helped churches in your ministry to navigate that?
00:26:00.801 --> 00:26:04.382
And I think it's if we spend all our time being anxious about the next generation,
00:26:04.382 --> 00:26:06.473
we're never going to be able to support the generation that's here.
00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:10.385
So I think the starting point is look at what's around you.
00:26:10.768 --> 00:26:15.405
Look at what you need to do in the here and now and build the kingdom now.
00:26:15.858 --> 00:26:20.740
We can't preserve our churches for the next generation if it dies in this generation.
00:26:21.204 --> 00:26:24.652
So it's looking at what's around. what are the people around your church and
00:26:24.652 --> 00:26:28.492
i worked with a village church in oxfordshire and they said oh it's terrible
00:26:28.492 --> 00:26:32.032
we've got no young families and i said what have you got in the village oh they're
00:26:32.032 --> 00:26:35.665
all retired folk i said all right okay so the question is,
00:26:36.576 --> 00:26:40.232
what can you do for the retired folk so they started doing coffee mornings and
00:26:40.232 --> 00:26:44.362
strangely enough people started coming to church and engaging with it because
00:26:44.362 --> 00:26:48.002
that was the group that was there on the doorstep and that's what we need to
00:26:48.002 --> 00:26:49.620
do. We need to look at what's there.
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:55.662
And I think as churches consider survival mode, actually, it's important to
00:26:55.662 --> 00:26:58.368
think about that, but it's important to think about what's happening now.
00:26:59.326 --> 00:27:04.742
And to take that risk, to be brave, to trust in God, that God's got it,
00:27:04.742 --> 00:27:06.332
and God will help you keep going.
00:27:06.861 --> 00:27:08.742
Changing that focus from maintenance to mission.
00:27:09.772 --> 00:27:12.734
And I hope that I'll encourage churches to do that as I go around,
00:27:12.995 --> 00:27:14.892
and just to get them to think slightly differently.
00:27:15.572 --> 00:27:16.872
So my last question.
00:27:16.872 --> 00:27:17.285
Okay.
00:27:18.214 --> 00:27:23.502
We've been talking about the stuff that, in what one way of looking at it would
00:27:23.502 --> 00:27:28.032
be to say, this is the stuff that you live for as a minister. I'm passionate now.
00:27:28.552 --> 00:27:30.782
Absolutely. And that passion comes through clearly.
00:27:32.232 --> 00:27:36.702
I find myself going back again and again and being really disturbed and challenged,
00:27:36.702 --> 00:27:44.133
personally, I'm talking personally now, by the incident in Jesus' life when
00:27:45.340 --> 00:27:52.323
He first of all lays it out to the disciples. Discipleship ultimately is about the cross.
00:27:52.439 --> 00:27:52.654
Yeah.
00:27:53.438 --> 00:27:55.226
So we've been talking about
00:27:57.327 --> 00:28:04.018
what you live for as a minister. There's also the Jesus question as part of
00:28:04.018 --> 00:28:06.528
discipleship about what you die for. Yeah.
00:28:07.008 --> 00:28:10.488
So what would you go to the wall for in terms of your faith?
00:28:10.488 --> 00:28:15.398
That's a really tough question, isn't it? And it's, it's one of those interesting
00:28:15.398 --> 00:28:17.655
ones. It is something I have reflected on.
00:28:18.108 --> 00:28:22.268
And the reason being, when you're an army chaplain, you go to certain places
00:28:22.268 --> 00:28:24.151
in the world that people might not like you.
00:28:25.654 --> 00:28:29.688
And they don't see the fact that you're a person of faith, that you don't carry
00:28:29.688 --> 00:28:31.529
a weapon. They see the uniform.
00:28:32.191 --> 00:28:35.958
And it was interesting in Iraq and Afghanistan that there was a respect from
00:28:35.958 --> 00:28:40.108
some of the local workers because they realized I had a cross on my collar and
00:28:40.108 --> 00:28:41.676
they realized that I was the chaplain.
00:28:42.280 --> 00:28:44.764
And there was a mutual respect of a person of faith.
00:28:45.902 --> 00:28:49.508
And I remember discussing with chaplains in that scenario what we do.
00:28:49.908 --> 00:28:54.859
And I think for me, it's one of those, if I was even with a gun to my head,
00:28:55.149 --> 00:28:56.653
told I had to renounce my faith,
00:28:57.715 --> 00:29:02.847
I hope and pray I'd stand firm and say, no, this is what's important.
00:29:02.847 --> 00:29:06.405
The cross of Christ is important. This is what I'll live and die for.
00:29:08.313 --> 00:29:12.937
Thankfully, I never had to do that. But I think that for me is actually we've
00:29:12.937 --> 00:29:16.547
got to make sure that our faith is essential and work blooming hard,
00:29:16.547 --> 00:29:21.687
as it says in our statement of nature, faith, and order, to challenge the structures
00:29:21.687 --> 00:29:23.290
that say faith isn't important.
00:29:24.456 --> 00:29:28.407
And for me, that's not just about our faith as Christians. We're seeing the
00:29:28.407 --> 00:29:30.217
marginalization of all faiths.
00:29:30.912 --> 00:29:35.877
And we need to work together to make sure that faith is always on the agenda.
00:29:36.597 --> 00:29:39.915
Because as people of faith, the kingdom complies.
00:29:41.314 --> 00:29:46.138
Mike, thank you so much for your generosity and time and being so open.
00:29:47.891 --> 00:29:54.587
I'm sure that you will find a lot of excitement around in the churches at your
00:29:54.587 --> 00:29:55.637
appointment. Thank you.
00:29:55.997 --> 00:30:01.347
I hope they don't try and hide it from you, but that it's allowed to be visible
00:30:01.347 --> 00:30:03.417
and it encourages you. Thank you.
00:30:04.517 --> 00:30:12.068
I wish you every blessing and a real dollop of God's spirit in your ministry.
00:30:12.577 --> 00:30:16.700
And I'd request one thing from every single member of our synod for me,
00:30:16.979 --> 00:30:18.883
and that's a simple request. Pray for me.
00:30:19.411 --> 00:30:23.857
Pray for me and my family as we move up here. Pray for me as I go around the
00:30:23.857 --> 00:30:29.843
churches, as I listen. And pray for me as I help you discern where God's leading you.
00:30:32.136 --> 00:30:37.894
Because it's no easy role, and I can't do this without prayer and the grace of God.
00:30:38.225 --> 00:30:40.495
So please pray for me as I take on this task.
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:41.760
Thank you, Mike.
00:30:41.888 --> 00:30:42.753
Thank you. God bless.
00:30:42.875 --> 00:30:43.508
God bless.