Common Pitfalls: When Consensual Non‑Monogamy Gets Messy

WEBVTT
00:00:00.323 --> 00:00:04.920
Recently, we talked about what it looks like when C&M goes really well.
00:00:05.245 --> 00:00:10.209
This time, let's tackle some of the common things that can go wrong. What do you think, Skye?
00:00:11.097 --> 00:00:20.112
I think we should continue with this conversation and do exactly that, so let's get to talking.
00:00:37.180 --> 00:00:38.727
The relationship skills that
00:00:38.727 --> 00:00:44.117
support consensual non-monogamy or ethical non-monogamy are learnable.
00:00:44.117 --> 00:00:48.667
So if you're running into any of these issues in your own relationships or maybe
00:00:48.667 --> 00:00:52.767
your client is struggling, don't despair. There's actually stuff that you can
00:00:52.767 --> 00:00:57.864
do to help them build the capacities to make their non-monogamous relationships work well.
00:00:58.514 --> 00:01:03.384
Where would you like to start? Well, let's talk about common pitfalls.
00:01:03.796 --> 00:01:08.207
Let's start there. So when I think about common pitfalls, what jumps out at
00:01:08.207 --> 00:01:15.387
me is jealousy, navigating new relationship energy, and broken agreements.
00:01:15.387 --> 00:01:20.237
And I'm going to guess that what jumps out at you probably isn't too much different
00:01:20.237 --> 00:01:22.065
from that. But no, go ahead.
00:01:23.287 --> 00:01:27.132
Yep, that stuff is so, so common.
00:01:27.817 --> 00:01:33.747
And I love to talk about this as a person who is in a consensually non-monogamous relationship.
00:01:34.067 --> 00:01:40.541
These are things that show up in my life as well. So let me debunk a myth right off the bat.
00:01:40.790 --> 00:01:47.687
Having a healthy, emotionally robust C&M relationship does not mean that you
00:01:47.687 --> 00:01:49.916
don't bump into some of these pitfalls.
00:01:50.235 --> 00:01:56.806
We have, just like you might bump into them in a monogamous relationship. Surprise, surprise.
00:01:57.091 --> 00:02:00.907
And being a therapist doesn't make you immune to relationship challenges is
00:02:00.907 --> 00:02:02.002
the other thing I'm hearing.
00:02:02.836 --> 00:02:08.235
Nope, definitely not. I still happen to be a whole human being.
00:02:08.914 --> 00:02:16.374
Yeah, me too, for sure. You know, difficult feelings related to jealousy,
00:02:16.797 --> 00:02:22.363
jealousy and its feeling sisters, are pretty hard to avoid.
00:02:22.363 --> 00:02:27.171
I've met a few people in my life who say, I don't really experience jealousy.
00:02:27.543 --> 00:02:29.290
Have you met people who say that?
00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:36.203
I have met people who say that. And upon further dialogue, what I usually find
00:02:36.203 --> 00:02:43.608
is they may not get jealous, but there is some other adjacent emotion around
00:02:44.026 --> 00:02:46.923
threat or feeling intimidated,
00:02:47.503 --> 00:02:49.263
about loss of some sort.
00:02:49.643 --> 00:02:55.195
So even for those folks, looking a little bit more closely, they can usually surface something.
00:02:55.512 --> 00:03:01.733
Ah, I like what you just said. So jealousy, I tend not to use the word jealousy
00:03:01.901 --> 00:03:04.863
because it's such a monolith.
00:03:05.223 --> 00:03:09.793
So what I just noticed you doing is breaking it apart. Like there are adjacent
00:03:09.793 --> 00:03:14.043
emotions, a whole bunch of them, not just is it jealousy or envy,
00:03:14.043 --> 00:03:16.443
but like a whole bunch of adjacent stuff.
00:03:16.883 --> 00:03:20.173
And I think that's super important.
00:03:20.173 --> 00:03:25.993
I think comparison is one of the sisters of jealousy, self-comparison and then
00:03:25.993 --> 00:03:30.195
coming up short, and competitiveness and a sense like,
00:03:30.652 --> 00:03:35.343
if somebody else has more than I have less and we're competing for a limited
00:03:35.343 --> 00:03:39.853
resource, there's all these little adjacent emotions.
00:03:39.853 --> 00:03:42.128
I love that term. I'm sticking with it.
00:03:42.762 --> 00:03:49.659
Yep, stick with it. So, you know, I want to talk a little bit about jealousy and how I think about it.
00:03:49.989 --> 00:03:57.501
So for me as a human being, I make the assumption that every emotion known to
00:03:57.733 --> 00:04:01.698
human beings might be in my emotional zeitgeist.
00:04:02.122 --> 00:04:08.469
So I am not actually surprised nor do I try to avoid.
00:04:09.291 --> 00:04:13.559
Any human emotion that if you're a therapist listening or a coach you might
00:04:13.559 --> 00:04:17.869
have one of those therapy wheels in your office so when I look at all of those
00:04:17.869 --> 00:04:19.920
emotions I make the assumption that,
00:04:20.448 --> 00:04:24.814
I'm going to feel all of them at one point or more in my life.
00:04:25.261 --> 00:04:31.909
And avoiding engaging with any particular emotion is, I don't know,
00:04:31.909 --> 00:04:34.581
kind of a useless activity.
00:04:34.947 --> 00:04:38.929
So right now, I might already be too radical for some people,
00:04:39.086 --> 00:04:45.320
but I'm a big fan in my office of saying, guess what? We cannot avoid the experience of emotion.
00:04:45.669 --> 00:04:48.649
Whether you're single, you're going to have lots of emotions.
00:04:48.649 --> 00:04:52.246
If you're in a monogamous relationship, you're going to have lots of emotions.
00:04:52.606 --> 00:04:57.709
And if you are ethically non-monogamous, you are probably going to have lots
00:04:57.709 --> 00:05:02.039
of emotions. So by proxy of being human, we're going to have to feel some things.
00:05:02.219 --> 00:05:05.909
And some of them we might have more comfortability experiencing,
00:05:05.909 --> 00:05:07.211
and some of them we might not.
00:05:08.109 --> 00:05:13.229
Agreed. And different emotions are differently challenging for different people
00:05:13.529 --> 00:05:15.628
and different circumstances.
00:05:15.878 --> 00:05:22.819
So one thing that I've definitely observed is somebody who mostly doesn't struggle
00:05:22.819 --> 00:05:26.211
with jealousy and its sibling emotions,
00:05:26.871 --> 00:05:29.890
And then they're in a different circumstance and a different relationship,
00:05:29.890 --> 00:05:33.773
and all of a sudden they're brought to their knees and they're like, holy shit, okay.
00:05:34.412 --> 00:05:40.060
The reason I think it's important to think about this in a kind of broad,
00:05:40.060 --> 00:05:41.767
expansive, and flexible way
00:05:42.156 --> 00:05:48.580
is because there's this theme that can happen in people in open relationships,
00:05:48.580 --> 00:05:51.763
the idea that you could do it right or you could do it wrong.
00:05:52.013 --> 00:05:55.890
If I was meant for this, I would or wouldn't experience this or that.
00:05:56.349 --> 00:06:02.930
And that's just right next door to sexual shame and very limiting.
00:06:02.940 --> 00:06:10.472
It's very self-limiting, self-judging, and not helpful, and I would say not true.
00:06:10.705 --> 00:06:15.410
You know, there's not a right way to experience emotions. Like you're saying
00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:20.533
with your therapy emotion wheel, emotions happen. The question is, then what?
00:06:21.483 --> 00:06:27.263
I am already loving something you said, so we are going to have to slow this
00:06:27.263 --> 00:06:29.540
down and rewind the tape.
00:06:29.714 --> 00:06:36.083
You said that the statement, if I were meant for this, I would do better at
00:06:36.083 --> 00:06:38.816
it, is a neighbor to sexual shame.
00:06:39.304 --> 00:06:45.271
And it took me a minute to like, huh, I felt that question mark pop up above my head.
00:06:45.580 --> 00:06:50.783
And then I could see how that was the case. So for anybody else out there who
00:06:50.783 --> 00:06:54.548
might have had that kind of, wait, what? What did Martha say? Moment.
00:06:54.960 --> 00:06:59.633
Maybe we roll that back a little bit. I'm going to try to walk through it because
00:06:59.633 --> 00:07:01.067
that's a great way for me to learn.
00:07:01.537 --> 00:07:05.383
And I want you to be my helper and my guide and let me know if I need to go
00:07:05.383 --> 00:07:09.577
a little bit more to the left or a little bit more to the right and understanding what you said. Fair?
00:07:10.087 --> 00:07:17.803
You bet. Go for it. Okay. Okay, so in that concept that if I were meant for
00:07:17.803 --> 00:07:20.351
this, I would be better at it, or I would be able to do it
00:07:20.774 --> 00:07:29.673
and avoid certain emotions, there is an expectation and an assumption of maybe
00:07:29.673 --> 00:07:34.983
not good enough, maybe inadequacy, and that is built on a belief,
00:07:35.443 --> 00:07:40.731
that it is supposed to look kind of in a one size fits all way.
00:07:41.272 --> 00:07:44.335
Tell me what I got right and tell me what I might be missing slightly from what
00:07:44.335 --> 00:07:48.000
you said. All of it is awesome. Okay.
00:07:48.400 --> 00:07:57.677
And we do see that in the expression of sexuality, that there's a way to do it.
00:07:57.978 --> 00:08:04.665
And if I cannot live up to that way of doing it, or there's a way to experience
00:08:04.665 --> 00:08:11.365
it, And if I am not experiencing it that way, then there is a deficiency inside of me.
00:08:11.365 --> 00:08:15.415
And we don't love anything about those types of sentences, correct?
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:24.361
Yes. Exactly. Yep. We don't love them. Okay. So, yeah, I really am taking that in.
00:08:24.761 --> 00:08:31.725
I'm enjoying and appreciating that. And so what we might want to offer in juxtaposition
00:08:31.725 --> 00:08:35.627
to that is CNM may not be for you.
00:08:36.157 --> 00:08:43.174
It may be something that you don't choose for your relationship structure. That's totally fair.
00:08:43.604 --> 00:08:50.155
But to count yourself out as a result of saying, I'm going to be uncomfortable
00:08:50.155 --> 00:08:57.995
with this emotional experience, there may be more to that than what you're immediately predicting.
00:08:59.135 --> 00:09:02.125
I like it. Thank you for unpacking that so well. I don't think I could have
00:09:02.125 --> 00:09:04.855
done that. We make a dream. Yes.
00:09:06.075 --> 00:09:09.808
This was so crisp and really clear. I love it.
00:09:09.947 --> 00:09:17.115
When we have an idea in our head that something should be easy for us or something
00:09:17.115 --> 00:09:22.002
should go a particular way, we really are limiting our needs.
00:09:22.553 --> 00:09:27.429
Ability to just be level with what our experience actually turns out to be.
00:09:27.702 --> 00:09:34.619
And I love the idea of moving towards a world where it's okay to be ourselves
00:09:34.619 --> 00:09:36.449
and it's okay to have our experience.
00:09:36.449 --> 00:09:43.109
So you can be in an amazing relationship, regardless of what your relationship
00:09:43.109 --> 00:09:46.481
structure is or your status vis-a-vis monogamy or non-
00:09:46.852 --> 00:09:52.982
And struggle a lot or not a lot. And maybe it doesn't mean anything about you.
00:09:53.249 --> 00:09:56.226
And maybe it doesn't mean anything about your partner. And maybe it doesn't
00:09:56.226 --> 00:10:00.346
mean anything about the goodness or badness of your relationship or your relationship structure.
00:10:00.346 --> 00:10:06.296
Like maybe it just could be like, okay, that was a tough relationship week or
00:10:06.296 --> 00:10:08.249
a tough relationship era.
00:10:08.371 --> 00:10:12.644
I mean, I'm in a 30-year marriage and there have been some tough relationship eras.
00:10:12.963 --> 00:10:18.446
Absolutely. Of course. And I would expect no less from anyone who's been in
00:10:18.446 --> 00:10:22.746
a long-term relationship that there have been tough moments and tough years
00:10:22.746 --> 00:10:25.476
and tough eras, as you said. Yeah.
00:10:25.816 --> 00:10:31.166
So with, and I'm going to out myself, you know, I experienced jealousy and it
00:10:31.166 --> 00:10:40.178
has a lot less to do with the relationship that I'm in and a lot more to do with the schema that got.
00:10:40.550 --> 00:10:43.506
Saturated in my brain when the concrete was drying.
00:10:43.506 --> 00:10:47.765
And that's just my term for talking about my family of origin experiences.
00:10:48.044 --> 00:10:55.106
When the concrete was drying for me, I learned that there was not enough to
00:10:55.106 --> 00:11:00.142
go around in terms of the emotional resource called love and security.
00:11:00.409 --> 00:11:09.273
And if someone else got attention, that meant that there was a deficiency or inadequacy in me.
00:11:09.604 --> 00:11:13.267
And that's how that was lived out in my family of origin environment.
00:11:13.557 --> 00:11:16.081
So I learned to be jealous.
00:11:16.394 --> 00:11:20.956
And the relationship that I have with jealousy now looks very different than
00:11:20.956 --> 00:11:24.405
the relationship that I had with it as a child.
00:11:24.719 --> 00:11:32.399
Now I can interrogate that, deconstruct it, and really provide some care for whatever is needed.
00:11:32.596 --> 00:11:36.196
Now I can talk to a partner about that jealousy.
00:11:36.596 --> 00:11:40.444
And sometimes it comes with a request. Very often it does not.
00:11:41.013 --> 00:11:46.624
Don't often need a relationship accommodation to take care of my own feelings.
00:11:46.624 --> 00:11:51.834
But if I might want to have one, I would think long and hard about what I was
00:11:51.834 --> 00:11:56.240
asking that other human being to give me. I really want to do that work for myself.
00:11:56.478 --> 00:12:01.524
I love so much what you're saying there, the idea that you're taking care of
00:12:01.524 --> 00:12:06.064
your own emotions. But I think even more radical than that is the idea that
00:12:06.064 --> 00:12:08.489
there might not be a request.
00:12:10.108 --> 00:12:15.088
Is that radical? Tell us more. Really? So you're experiencing a tough emotion
00:12:15.088 --> 00:12:18.308
and you're sitting with it and you're holding it, you're deconstructing it,
00:12:18.308 --> 00:12:21.514
you're interrogating it, you're figuring out what it's about for yourself.
00:12:21.758 --> 00:12:25.688
And you're wondering, tell me if I got this right, you're wondering if there's
00:12:25.688 --> 00:12:27.081
a request attached to it.
00:12:27.342 --> 00:12:30.148
And there may be, but there really may not be. It may just be,
00:12:30.508 --> 00:12:33.170
oh, this is an interesting aspect of myself.
00:12:33.577 --> 00:12:40.293
Exactly, exactly. And this is really the kind of work that I love to do with clients.
00:12:40.467 --> 00:12:43.208
I'm throwing in a little plug for working with me.
00:12:43.528 --> 00:12:50.678
This is really the type of work that I enjoy deeply helping people explore and
00:12:51.032 --> 00:12:58.644
building that internal infrastructure so that we can have the most secure internal attachment possible.
00:12:58.795 --> 00:13:04.918
So if you are listening right now and something that you're hearing us talk
00:13:04.918 --> 00:13:12.193
about is piquing your interest, just remember, you can find me at www.workwithdrsky.com.
00:13:12.348 --> 00:13:17.975
Not only do I work with individuals and people with all relationship configurations,
00:13:18.294 --> 00:13:21.574
but I also can help you do some of your one-off consultings.
00:13:21.963 --> 00:13:28.188
So you can find me at www.workwithdrsky.com. And I highly recommend Skye.
00:13:28.188 --> 00:13:32.452
She is just as spectacular as you know her to be on this podcast.
00:13:32.888 --> 00:13:36.368
While we're plugging in the middle of our episode here, if you're a therapist
00:13:36.368 --> 00:13:39.748
listening to this and you're thinking, I've got a little ways to go when it
00:13:39.748 --> 00:13:42.576
comes to supporting my clients in these kinds of situations.
00:13:43.046 --> 00:13:45.537
I do have some training opportunities for you.
00:13:45.844 --> 00:13:52.503
You can get 25% off of any prerecorded training on my website using the code Untangling Intimacy.
00:13:52.863 --> 00:13:57.358
And that includes a very robust training on working with consensual non-monogamies.
00:13:57.358 --> 00:14:01.668
It's called Consensual Non-Monogamy Level 1, Clinical Skills and Interventions,
00:14:01.668 --> 00:14:03.571
and you can find the link in the show notes.
00:14:03.838 --> 00:14:10.270
And don't forget to get your 25% off coupon using Untangling Intimacy as a coupon code.
00:14:10.921 --> 00:14:14.451
So, let's see. Let's talk a little bit about...
00:14:14.589 --> 00:14:19.099
Wait, wait. Before we move on, I have thought about this when I was kind of
00:14:19.099 --> 00:14:22.169
running through my own Martha filter about, okay, so I've got an emotion.
00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:25.167
I'm unpacking it. I'm untangling it.
00:14:25.498 --> 00:14:28.959
Little deconstruction, trying to learn about myself, learn about my partner,
00:14:28.959 --> 00:14:31.721
learn about my other partner, figure out what's going on for me.
00:14:32.202 --> 00:14:37.259
My request often is, I'd like to share my thoughts and feelings about this and
00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:38.594
just feel like you know me.
00:14:40.769 --> 00:14:45.099
So sometimes I'm not looking for I want you to do this differently in this circumstance
00:14:45.099 --> 00:14:48.712
sometimes I'm just looking for I want a little love around this.
00:14:51.009 --> 00:14:58.400
I love everything about that yes the ability to build that intimacy without
00:14:58.673 --> 00:15:03.009
responsibilizing the other person oh that's a good word responsibilizing.
00:15:05.289 --> 00:15:11.199
It's in my Rolodex of words I love it is frequently used that card is dog-eared
00:15:11.199 --> 00:15:16.034
for sure but it's yeah yeah I really I really like that,
00:15:16.602 --> 00:15:20.938
I don't need you to caretake this. I want you to know who I am.
00:15:21.315 --> 00:15:23.591
I want you to see all the colors.
00:15:24.108 --> 00:15:29.058
Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Well, so while we're on emotions.
00:15:29.798 --> 00:15:35.278
That seems like a good segue to NRE, which if there ever was an opportunity
00:15:35.278 --> 00:15:39.740
to have emotions, new relationship energy is it.
00:15:39.932 --> 00:15:45.377
First of all, how would you define new relationship energy for those who are new to the term of NRE?
00:15:45.656 --> 00:15:50.628
So I think in my Sky way, I would say it's all the feel-goods that knock you
00:15:50.628 --> 00:15:58.948
off your feet when something is novel and that that novelty makes a lot of sense.
00:15:58.948 --> 00:16:05.668
It might feel like, oh, does this mean that I don't care as much about my existing
00:16:05.668 --> 00:16:11.661
partner? There might be all these questions around it, but novelty does something to our brains.
00:16:11.829 --> 00:16:13.693
It's hardwired in there.
00:16:14.053 --> 00:16:18.108
So the new relationship energy, all the feel-goods, all the excitement that
00:16:18.108 --> 00:16:22.798
comes with that, we can look at that without problematizing.
00:16:22.798 --> 00:16:27.298
We'll go back to one of my Rolodex words. We can look at that energy without
00:16:27.298 --> 00:16:35.096
problematizing it, and we can understand it from maybe a neuroscience-adjacent way.
00:16:35.508 --> 00:16:38.878
You like it? Is it groovy? It's groovy. It's really groovy.
00:16:39.918 --> 00:16:44.298
Do you want to add anything? I do. I mean, I have thought so much about NRE
00:16:44.298 --> 00:16:47.308
because I work with so many people who are in open relationships,
00:16:47.308 --> 00:16:50.467
and NRE will bring you to your knees, really.
00:16:50.589 --> 00:16:56.548
And so I try to figure out how would I even help people in this circumstance
00:16:56.548 --> 00:16:58.513
and how would I even frame this and think about it?
00:16:59.064 --> 00:17:04.322
What I ended up doing was coming up with a worksheet, which is in my book, but it's the idea
00:17:04.642 --> 00:17:10.062
is to pre-plan for your NRE so that you can be grounded in your values right
00:17:10.062 --> 00:17:17.842
now with your full neocortex working right now in this moment unaffected by your future NRE.
00:17:17.842 --> 00:17:24.122
So now, rational Martha, next time I experience NRE, this is how I'd like to
00:17:24.122 --> 00:17:27.972
handle it. This is how I'd like to show up in my relationships.
00:17:27.972 --> 00:17:32.413
This is how I'd like to be grounded in myself. These are the values that are going to guide me.
00:17:32.802 --> 00:17:38.137
And here's the part that I never see in anybody else's stuff that I think is so important.
00:17:38.409 --> 00:17:46.635
How I want to handle your NRE. Next time you have NRE, how do I want to show up as your partner?
00:17:46.989 --> 00:17:51.432
How do I want to stay grounded in my values? What are the values that are going
00:17:51.432 --> 00:17:58.992
to guide me and ground me when you're super duper affected by NRE and doing
00:17:58.992 --> 00:18:00.997
things that I sometimes find annoying?
00:18:01.461 --> 00:18:07.442
So, I think it's really helpful to pre-plan for both sides, because if there's
00:18:07.442 --> 00:18:11.022
one thing I've noticed about working with CNM is that if you do,
00:18:11.342 --> 00:18:14.741
in fact, engage in new relationships once in a while,
00:18:15.176 --> 00:18:18.584
just about everything will come around and kick you. So, I think it's really helpful.
00:18:19.152 --> 00:18:24.306
You may as well plan for it both ways. And we're just as likely to completely
00:18:24.306 --> 00:18:30.906
be emotionally bowled over by our partner's NRE as by ours. It's just a different
00:18:30.906 --> 00:18:32.714
experience of bowled over.
00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:38.406
Well, Martha, you know, I have read your book and there are lots of goodies
00:18:38.406 --> 00:18:42.286
in there. There's probably so many goodies that it's hard to remember,
00:18:42.286 --> 00:18:46.206
but yeah, that's a goodie that I don't think I remembered. And I love it.
00:18:46.586 --> 00:18:51.876
I love it. It sits right next to the concept that I engage with my clients on
00:18:51.876 --> 00:18:54.802
is, okay, think about how you're going to feel when this happens.
00:18:55.098 --> 00:18:59.306
If you hear a yes, a no, or a maybe, and what are you going to tell yourself
00:18:59.306 --> 00:19:02.131
when you hear that no? Oh, what are you going to tell yourself when you hear that? Yes.
00:19:02.561 --> 00:19:05.579
What belief are you likely to engage with?
00:19:05.974 --> 00:19:10.336
And what do you want to believe instead? So this aligns beautifully with how
00:19:10.336 --> 00:19:13.567
I like to think about it. So thank you so much. I'm glad we didn't miss that.
00:19:13.921 --> 00:19:21.491
Yeah, me too. Nice. I like it a lot. So it seems like there's a thread of prior planning there.
00:19:21.758 --> 00:19:26.518
Do you want to talk a little bit about why you think prior planning is particularly helpful?
00:19:26.988 --> 00:19:34.676
I think having enough experience with yourself, and this requires some sobriety,
00:19:34.676 --> 00:19:37.292
some emotional sobriety, some honesty.
00:19:37.675 --> 00:19:44.351
So having enough experience with yourself to say, this is what I know about me.
00:19:44.618 --> 00:19:48.526
So my jealousy, for example, this is what I know about me.
00:19:48.866 --> 00:19:52.886
I know this is how it got baked in when the concrete was drying, etc., etc.
00:19:53.546 --> 00:20:01.246
And making a decision, like you said, that I want to live up to a certain set
00:20:01.246 --> 00:20:03.988
of personal values and standards.
00:20:04.523 --> 00:20:10.781
And so when I do that, I feel like I give myself the best chance for success.
00:20:10.990 --> 00:20:15.548
And I'm all about the best chance for success. I bet our friends who are listening
00:20:15.548 --> 00:20:17.689
are all about the best chance for success.
00:20:18.078 --> 00:20:21.698
It's a really nice feeling. It's like studying for a test.
00:20:22.078 --> 00:20:25.218
You know you're going to have this test. You go over the materials and your
00:20:25.218 --> 00:20:31.824
outcome is much likely going to be higher than if you just kind of go into it headlong. Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.364 --> 00:20:37.327
The best laid plans also go sideways when you have a bunch of emotions coming up.
00:20:37.641 --> 00:20:43.998
They do. And I think once you're in a big emotional soup.
00:20:44.458 --> 00:20:49.248
Whether you're suffering because your partner's being unreliable because they're
00:20:49.248 --> 00:20:54.045
experiencing NRA and you're experiencing something related to jealousy, or because
00:20:54.417 --> 00:20:58.838
you are awash in new relationship energy yourself, and you can hardly think
00:20:58.838 --> 00:21:01.018
about anything other than your
00:21:01.398 --> 00:21:07.407
new crush and you don't want to put your phone down when you sit down at the dinner table,
00:21:07.831 --> 00:21:13.735
whichever situation you're in, you're probably not going to make decisions that
00:21:13.996 --> 00:21:19.248
are super logical and you might not make decisions that are super relational.
00:21:19.248 --> 00:21:22.326
You might be a little more reactive than you otherwise would be.
00:21:22.750 --> 00:21:27.765
Whether it's in the, I'm having a big emotion and I hurt and so I'm self-protecting,
00:21:28.137 --> 00:21:34.498
or whether it's in the, I am in love and I am in this experience that I don't
00:21:34.498 --> 00:21:37.668
want to have taken away from me because it's just so good.
00:21:37.668 --> 00:21:40.176
I want what I want and I want it now.
00:21:40.391 --> 00:21:45.928
Whichever place you're in, that's not entirely a relational stance.
00:21:45.928 --> 00:21:50.108
And I think there's something very beautiful to be gained from trying to be
00:21:50.108 --> 00:21:52.528
more intentional in those spaces.
00:21:52.528 --> 00:21:57.858
Planning for it so that you can experience a little upgrade when that happens
00:21:57.858 --> 00:22:02.738
and get better at holding not just your perspective and your emotions,
00:22:02.738 --> 00:22:05.671
but also somebody else's perspective on what they're going through.
00:22:05.973 --> 00:22:11.708
And grounding in values is a good way to just get a little earthiness underneath all of that.
00:22:12.254 --> 00:22:15.829
I would also say your recovery practice.
00:22:16.015 --> 00:22:22.048
So let's say that NRE is overtaking or it has overtaken, how do you
00:22:22.388 --> 00:22:26.398
and your partner, how much skill, let me put it this way, how much skill do
00:22:26.398 --> 00:22:31.242
you and your partner have when it comes to recovering quickly?
00:22:31.503 --> 00:22:32.838
And that's something you can
00:22:32.838 --> 00:22:38.132
build with or without another person involved that is creating that NRE.
00:22:38.527 --> 00:22:43.348
So when there's conflict, how capable are we
00:22:43.788 --> 00:22:48.628
of saying this is what's happening, this is what I want to experience with you
00:22:48.628 --> 00:22:50.768
despite the fact that I am angry
00:22:51.108 --> 00:22:57.292
or hurt or disappointed or feel rejected, that recovery time,
00:22:57.397 --> 00:23:01.338
it can be improved in relationships with practice.
00:23:01.518 --> 00:23:07.318
And so building that into your relationship, I think, can be so valuable.
00:23:07.318 --> 00:23:11.892
But no, we don't have to burn the whole evening because of this thing that happened.
00:23:12.182 --> 00:23:16.129
It's practical. It's useful. It may not have all the feel-goods around it,
00:23:17.221 --> 00:23:22.549
I see a lot of use from having a quick recovery time in relationships.
00:23:23.531 --> 00:23:27.851
Yeah, like how much do I want to lose to this suffering right here?
00:23:30.171 --> 00:23:33.371
That seems like a good moment to throw in a positive frame, too,
00:23:33.751 --> 00:23:38.751
because I don't think it comes in super often. The idea that when if my partner
00:23:38.751 --> 00:23:43.946
is experiencing NRE with somebody else, that there could be positive aspects of that for me.
00:23:45.011 --> 00:23:49.043
Talk more about that, please. And thank you. Well, for one thing,
00:23:49.217 --> 00:23:51.353
I am an introvert's introvert.
00:23:51.498 --> 00:23:56.089
And if I have a partner who is entertaining themselves happily somewhere else
00:23:56.269 --> 00:24:02.291
on some kind of regular basis, it frees up my time for introvert pursuits.
00:24:03.513 --> 00:24:08.448
I'm an artist, so I've got like a long list of things that I could dive into.
00:24:08.622 --> 00:24:13.370
And sometimes I have to pull myself out of it to go sit down for dinner or something.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:19.811
And if there's nobody else in my house and in my sphere and in my space, I can just do me.
00:24:20.191 --> 00:24:23.791
I can eat what I want when I want to eat it. I can go to bed when I want to
00:24:23.791 --> 00:24:27.151
go to bed. I could curl up with a book. I could have a project on my lap.
00:24:27.151 --> 00:24:30.170
I could binge watch something my partner's not into.
00:24:30.437 --> 00:24:36.683
So I think it's an invitation to think about there are things that you enjoy
00:24:36.985 --> 00:24:40.950
doing with your partner, but are there things that you actually prefer to do
00:24:41.089 --> 00:24:44.555
alone or without your partner? or with another friend.
00:24:44.711 --> 00:24:48.781
So there can be some mutual benefit there. And then I think we could also mention
00:24:48.781 --> 00:24:56.047
compersion. So you also might just feel so happy for your partner that they're enjoying the thing.
00:24:56.407 --> 00:25:01.611
Do you think compersion can be developed? Oh, I totally think compersion can be developed.
00:25:02.071 --> 00:25:06.001
I like to, before I dive into compersion, I just want to say there are people
00:25:06.001 --> 00:25:10.661
who do not like the idea of compersion. Fine. I'm not proselytizing for compersion.
00:25:10.661 --> 00:25:15.012
You don't have to experience an emotion you don't want to experience. But I think that.
00:25:15.662 --> 00:25:24.550
Culture would be improved. USA-specific culture would be improved by generally
00:25:24.718 --> 00:25:28.526
celebrating each other's wins rather than competing.
00:25:28.770 --> 00:25:31.574
So there is something about values for me,
00:25:32.054 --> 00:25:38.854
around I want to be a person who celebrates with people who are happy rather
00:25:38.854 --> 00:25:45.133
than feeling like I'm so unhappy and also your happiness makes me even more unhappy.
00:25:45.365 --> 00:25:46.903
It's not fun.
00:25:47.217 --> 00:25:50.803
And so I often help people in my therapy room,
00:25:51.250 --> 00:25:55.924
practice this when they're experiencing jealousy or any of its related adjacent
00:25:55.924 --> 00:26:00.744
emotions using social media, because I think people post their vacation photos
00:26:00.744 --> 00:26:03.014
and their family photos and their beautiful stuff.
00:26:03.014 --> 00:26:06.836
And I mean, if you scroll through that stuff, doesn't it all just look delightful
00:26:07.103 --> 00:26:12.674
and that can really make you feel either jealous or envious or all of the above
00:26:12.674 --> 00:26:15.852
and you can fall into self-comparison and,
00:26:16.310 --> 00:26:20.094
you know you could work your way through all of the experiences adjacent to
00:26:20.094 --> 00:26:27.531
jealousy or you could challenge yourself to be like oh they're happy isn't that lovely and maybe even oh
00:26:27.932 --> 00:26:32.024
i feel a tiny twinge what i'm learning about myself is i really fucking need a vacation.
00:26:32.135 --> 00:26:35.670
So that I don't want to take their vacation away.
00:26:35.902 --> 00:26:42.357
I want a vacation for me. Right. So I can learn about myself from the emotions that come up.
00:26:42.827 --> 00:26:49.673
And I can celebrate their success. Yes, I love that reframe and using what's
00:26:49.673 --> 00:26:52.002
available as data point.
00:26:52.414 --> 00:26:57.723
Right. Emotions as a data point is one of the things I feel pretty passionate about. Very good.
00:26:58.083 --> 00:27:05.771
Glad we didn't miss that. I kind of look at compersion and jealousy on a spectrum continuum.
00:27:06.003 --> 00:27:11.959
I don't have to necessarily be at any given time all the way over to compersion.
00:27:12.128 --> 00:27:18.995
But if I can generate some pleasure at my partner's happiness or ease,
00:27:19.332 --> 00:27:21.712
then, you know, that makes me feel good.
00:27:21.944 --> 00:27:26.890
So less binary and more spectrum-y for me.
00:27:27.583 --> 00:27:31.693
I like it. And that makes me think of my personal goal. Like,
00:27:31.693 --> 00:27:37.664
let's just not fall into this deep end where their success is my self-hatred.
00:27:38.863 --> 00:27:45.001
That's really what I'd like to avoid. It doesn't have to be their success is my joy.
00:27:45.307 --> 00:27:52.553
But how about if I don't take on something about anybody else and turn it against myself?
00:27:52.553 --> 00:27:59.243
That's something that I do to myself, and it's a way of harming myself that
00:27:59.683 --> 00:28:03.192
has really got nothing to do with the other person at all.
00:28:03.488 --> 00:28:08.063
And why would I do that? I don't want to talk about suffering. Yeah.
00:28:08.443 --> 00:28:12.085
I don't want to make somebody's good day my I'm a piece of shit.
00:28:12.603 --> 00:28:16.444
Because I didn't have a good day day. It's like bad enough just to be like,
00:28:16.444 --> 00:28:17.967
well, this was a mad day for me.
00:28:18.402 --> 00:28:22.514
Or this was a hard day for me without going to I'm a piece of shit for not having
00:28:22.514 --> 00:28:26.355
your day. That seems unnecessarily convoluted and so sad.
00:28:26.593 --> 00:28:28.561
Thumbs down. Boo.
00:28:28.828 --> 00:28:31.774
Boo for that. Yeah. Thumbs totally boo.
00:28:32.534 --> 00:28:33.754
I love that, Sky.
00:28:34.974 --> 00:28:38.586
Because, I mean, this is actually like the true Martha. She does that.
00:28:38.830 --> 00:28:42.444
And I feel seen and loved. So thank you. Thank you for booing.
00:28:42.444 --> 00:28:44.645
The self-hatred loop for me.
00:28:44.761 --> 00:28:51.118
Oh, Martha, I just think there's even still places we could go in this conversation.
00:28:51.350 --> 00:28:55.194
We probably will loop back to this. So if you enjoyed what you were hearing,
00:28:55.654 --> 00:29:00.904
stay with us. We've got some other episodes on CNM and anything you want to
00:29:00.904 --> 00:29:03.384
make sure we touch before we wind this one down?
00:29:03.784 --> 00:29:07.514
I think just, you know, we talked about jealousy and we talked about NRE.
00:29:07.954 --> 00:29:13.044
And we talked about those in the context of CNM, but I just want to say neither
00:29:13.044 --> 00:29:16.178
of these things is specific for an open relationship.
00:29:16.410 --> 00:29:20.434
You can experience all manner of difficult emotions right there in a monogamous
00:29:20.434 --> 00:29:25.158
relationship. And you can even experience them when you're not in a relationship at all.
00:29:25.628 --> 00:29:29.324
And when we're talking about new relationship energy, you could ask yourself
00:29:29.324 --> 00:29:32.714
these very same questions. Like, do I completely want to lose track of all of
00:29:32.714 --> 00:29:35.851
my friends next time I'm having new relationship energy?
00:29:36.286 --> 00:29:41.012
How often do I feel comfortable completely phoning in and at work rather than
00:29:41.353 --> 00:29:45.754
showing up with my full self? How would I get grounded in my values and show up differently?
00:29:46.125 --> 00:29:50.014
And then what kind of grace do I want to extend to others when they're in that
00:29:50.014 --> 00:29:53.994
space too? So I just want to throw in that this is about CNM,
00:29:53.994 --> 00:29:57.352
but it isn't about CNM. It's actually just about human feelings.
00:29:57.908 --> 00:30:03.032
I just want to make sure that those friends of ours who are listening and are
00:30:03.032 --> 00:30:05.422
facing any challenge related to,
00:30:05.962 --> 00:30:11.172
CNM or really just being alive and being a person that we encourage you and
00:30:11.172 --> 00:30:16.622
let you know, hey, you can learn a new thing and you can do a new thing.
00:30:17.042 --> 00:30:21.256
And these are skills. And if they're skills, that means they are buildable.
00:30:21.686 --> 00:30:23.282
Okay, everybody. We'll see you next time.