Exploring a decade of vulnerability insights and support

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Welcome to unlock in Vulnerability, the podcast that explores what
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vulnerability really looks like in everyday life. I'm Helen, and
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in each episode, I'm joined by a different guest who
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will bring their unique insight and perspectives from across the
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vulnerability space. We'll discuss the realities behind vulnerability and what
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it takes to respond when people need additional support. We're
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glad to have you here, so grab a cup of
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tea and let's get started. Before we begin this first
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episode of the new series of Unlocking Vulnerability, I wanted
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to share that this year marks something really special for me.
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This year is the tenure anniversary of Helen ped for Training,
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ten years of working alongside organizations, teams, and individuals to
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better understand vulnerability, to respond with compassion, and to do
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the right thing when it matters most. When I started
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this work a decade ago, conversations about vulnerability were often uncomfortable, inconsistent,
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or happening quietly behind the scenes. To see how far
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this space has come and to have been part of
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that journey is something I'm incredibly proud of. This podcast
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relaunches one of the ways I'm choosing to celebrate this progress.
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Over the last ten years, we've seen real change, better
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understanding of consumer vulnerability, stronger partnerships, more open conversations about
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well being, and a growing recognition that empathy and professionalism
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go hand in hand. Unlocking Vulnerability has always been about learning, sharing,
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and challenging ourselves to do better, and this new series
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continues that commitment. It's a chance to reflect on how
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far we've come, to spotlight the people driving change, and
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to keep pushing the conversation forward for the decade ahead.
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So let's grab a cup of tea and get started
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with our first episode. I'm thrilled to be joined for
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this first episode by my colleague Jenna Birchill. Hello, Jenna,
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it's wonderful to have you join me on this momentous occasion.
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Thank you for having me Helen.
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I'm really looking forward to our discussion and yeah, just
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to hear your thoughts of what's happened over the last
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ten years within the vulnerability space. So before we get
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deep into conversation, then, do you want to start by
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giving a brief introduction to you and your role at
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Helen PETERFA Training.
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Yeah, definitely, so yeah, thank you for having me. So
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Hi everybody. My name's Jenna Birchull. I'm a vulnerability consultant
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working with and for Helen Pettifer. So I've been with
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Helen almost two years now, so it's gone so so quick.
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Prior to that, I worked for sixteen years in the
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financial services sector. But my role at Helen Pettifer is
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so I'm a vulnerability consultant, so I really work with
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differing clients across differing sectors just to really help them
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with embedding their vulnerability strategy topics and all of the
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good things that they want to deliver for their customers.
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So very much like a data z so I'll wear
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the hats of you know, compliance and regulatory expectations, but
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also with my previous role before I worked with Helen,
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I had a number of roles such as obviously a
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customer service agent, myself team manager, etc. Customer service manager.
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So I like to think I can wear both hats
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while I'm working with our clients and have a really
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well rounded view of how to make it work for
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their customers but also for their their colleagues too.
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Really, so you've been working in this space so slightly
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longer than I have actually, then if I set up
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ten years ago, and you mentioned you've been working in
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this longer, So looking back over the ten years, then
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we really have come a long way, haven't we really
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been to think about vulnerability and regulators and firms and
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just people's insights and understand and a vulnerability. So how
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would you describe a shift that we've seen since sort
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of over over the years with regards vulnerability.
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Yeah, I think so different to what it was ten
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years ago, Helen. I think, just speaking from my personal experience,
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if I were to look back ten years ago, the
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almost like the topic or the terminology the vulnerable customer
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or supporting customers and vulnerable circumstances wasn't really a thing.
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It was more.
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With regards to treating customers fairly and the principles that
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were outlaid at the time, you know, specifically from the
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regulatory sector. But it was almost like there was a
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gap in terms of well what does that mean? So
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what does that mean for me as an agent in
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actually supporting person that I'm speaking to on the phone.
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So I think now if we move on ten years,
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ten years, there's an increased awareness around vulnerability what it
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actually means in terms you know that it can affect
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any one of us at any time and in differing
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means and ways, and it's a topic that's known, so
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there's a lot more awareness around it and why it's
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important that we are able to support people who are
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in vulnerable circumstances. I feel it's transition very much from
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framework and policies, which I think, probably from my perspective,
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that was more the focus ten years ago, making sure
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you've got in place a checklist to make sure that
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your organization is doing all of the things in relation
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to treating customers fairly, Whereas now it's a lot more humanized, understood,
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and I feel the principles are being put into practice
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easier for organizations.
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Yeah, absolutely so, so similar thoughts to what I had,
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And I think you are absolutely right that you know,
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we're seeing that the regulators are really changing the emphasis
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now of yeah, it's not about process, it's not about
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those frameworks. It is about that's a human, that's a
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human at the end of the phone, that's a human
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at the end of that customer journey. What does that
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look like for them? What have they got going on
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in their lives? When you think about vulnerability over the
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last ten years. It really has changed, doesn't it. You know,
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historically would think it was the definition of vulnerability would
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be somebody who is disabled, an elderly person, somebody with
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a mental health condition. But now even that the definition
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has broadened into so many different circumstances that people are
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being impacted by. Yeah, so a lot of awareness has happened,
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a lot of change has happened, and it's important, isn't it.
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It's important that we do have that evolve in aspect
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of vulnerability and keep that in our mindset moving forward.
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Completely agree, and I think there's so many factors that
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have helped us move forward in the last ten years.
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I think the work that the FCA of done, you know,
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clearly outlining their expectations, making sure that there are focus
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and support and work in groups in place to you know,
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really help organizations understand the lived experience of customers. So
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there's there's much more accessible help in that regard in
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terms of these are the regulatory expectations, but you know, here.
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Is some support available to you.
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I think COVID nineteen had a huge impact, particularly from
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a customer service perspective. I think it was a you know,
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it's a shift that shook all of us. There probably
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wasn't not one of us that wasn't impacted in some
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way or another during that period, and I think that
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showed us as humans. You know, the things that we
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took for granted, you know, or we took for granted,
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they weren't easy to access anymore. You couldn't just go
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out for coffee with your friend or have a hug
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with a the person that you wanted to.
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And it really changed things for a lot of people.
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But I think, particularly in terms of the customer service space,
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is demands went up at that time after, you know,
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because we were also so vulnerable or we needed different things.
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It was like, you know, when you were working with
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a provider or you have a product or policy or
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whatever it was, you know you wanted to access, your
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expectations of that service were almost very enhanced. So I
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think it's all really really gone full circle. I think
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generally people are a lot more aware of their rights
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and able to vocalize their voice more. I'm not saying
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that's the same for everybody, but some people have found
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their voice and I think COVID nineteen has sort of
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helped help them in that regard. I think with regards
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to the global and economic climate. You know, again, not
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one of us that hasn't been affected by you know,
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things that have taken place in that regard. And I
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recognize that there are some good new news stories out there,
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but it's also hard not to be impacted by you know,
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the not so nice news stories that we've all seen,
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such as the wars, cost of living, you know, price increases,
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and actually just how it feels quite generally hard to
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get by for a lot of people now. And I
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think there's it's almost felt quite close to home for
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a lot of us. And I think therefore it's more
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of a realization that actually, any one of us can
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become vulnerable at any time, Like life happens to all
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of us in some way or another, and that's why
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we need you know, we're humans. Ultimately, at some point
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in our life, we're going to need to put our
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hands up and say, hey, I need a bit of help,
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and that's normal and it's okay to do and we
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should be able to do that.
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Yeah, absolutely, And I think as well, firms are now
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also looking internally and just thinking, actually, if our customers
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are impacted and affected by those situations, that you mentioned,
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and actually it quite rightly, our colleagues are as well.
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So it's firms getting it right for both customers and
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for colleagues and making sure that they're the supporting both
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and making sure that they've got those accessible, inclusive processes
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and that high empathy sort of service for both is
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really really crucial, isn't it.
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I really do believe.
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That we're seeing that more with our clients, aren't we.
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They're actually sort of they come in to us and
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just saying, actually, yeah, you know, what if you've got
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for our team members, you know, they're under pressure, they're overstretched,
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they're underresourced. You know that the conversations that they're exposed
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to are quite harrowing, quite distressing, because I think you're right.
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Since COVID, we are seeing more and more customers either
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pushing back against company firm decisions or they are been
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absolutely overwhelmingly sharing information about their lives. You know, perhaps
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they're going through trauma, they're experiencing difficult situations, and of
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course customer face and team members are all exposed to that.
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It's overwhelming. It's hard for them to take and if
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they're not able to get those breaks and to step
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away or they don't get that support behind the scenes.
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You know, that's detrimental for them.
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Absolutely, They're hearing so much and they're absorbing it all
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and taking that home with them. Yeah, you know daily,
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I completely agree, and I think what you said earlier
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so key for firms to remember is actually, whilst it's
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great we put in place support for customers and we're
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able to identify you know, challenging circumstances or vulnerability and
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their support needs.
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That's excellent, but.
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Equally mirroring that for your colleagues and employees well in
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terms of general life, it's probably very likely that if
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they are supporting a customer with financial difficulty, they too
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are experiencing some form of financial difficulty. There's probably few
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of us that isn't impacted by what's going on in
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the global and worldly climate at the moment, and that
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manifests itself in other forms as well, as you've mentioned,
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such as mental health, resilience, well being and for them,
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you know, being able to do a good job.
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Yeah, absolutely, And of course they're often doing that from home,
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either from their kitchen table, their bedroom. You know, potentially
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they're having these difficult situations in an environment where where
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they're expected to feel safe. It's there, they're safe space,
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and they don't often have then the colleagues around them
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to sort of just check in with them, you know,
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are you okay, or for them to just you know,
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just have a bit of a debrief and I've just
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had this call. What do I say?
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What do I do?
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And they're missing those really valuable connections.
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Yeah, absolutely, I agree, And so important that firms can
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set up processes and support for those people who are
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working from home if they need it.
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Absolutely, Yeah, so important.
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So thinking about I mean you mentioned obviously the fcas
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have you know, obviously really honed the compliance that they
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want in firms to adhere to. You know, over the
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last ten years has been a real change from the
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occasional Paper eight that was a twenty fifteen through to
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the fair triop and of vulnerable customers and then obviously
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more recently the Consumer Duty. So there's been a real
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shift for firms to adhere to those Do you think
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that organizations are still seeing vulnerability as a tick box
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compliance exercise or do you think that they are really
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seeing this is actually do you know what this is
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the right thing to do from a moral and ethical
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point of view, and you know, what are you seeing
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in that not just our clients, but but sort of
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outside of those.
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Yeah, I would probably say fairly split, maybe seventy thirty
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to be fair, in terms of seventy percent of organizations
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in my experience are wanting to do it right, but
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they also in terms of obviously meeting regulatory compliance, but
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they are wanting to do the right thing by humans
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because it's morally and ethically the right thing to do.
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They get it, They want to they want to do that,
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They want to show up for that person in their
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moment of truth. Thirty I would probably say are just
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ticking the boxes or not seeing beyond the regulatory compliance
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and really actually taking the time to understand why it's
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important living like real life lived experience. So perhaps those
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are the firms who do have their processes, policies and
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frameworks in place to evidence how they may support vulnerable customers.
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But perhaps what they're not doing is actually working with
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lived experience groups charities gaining external insight, also necessarily not
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using some of their customer feedback to actually really listen
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to the voices, what are people telling us, what are
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people going through? And can we support that person or
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those group of people their time of need based on
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our products and service, and that takes time and resource
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to do. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand that,
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and I know that, you know, cost of living and
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budgets and restraints affect organizations too, and it's challenging. However,
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in my opinion, if you really want to make a
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difference and do the right thing for your customers and colleagues,
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going the extra mile and doing that extra thirty percent
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is very much needed.
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Yeah, completely agree, completely agree, and even just thinking obviously,
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when I first set up Hell and Petter for training
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sort of ten years ago, it was predominantly a training company,
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so it was only training that I delivered right from
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the outset, and then as the company grew, we sort
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of offered resources. We offered the compliance Pathways program for
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the consultancy services, and it was really the reason they
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all came into to be in is really because I
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was seeing people come to us and just then all
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you know, we need vulnerability training, and they were almost
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seeing it in silo. It's like, well, okay, you know,
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tick the box. We've trained the staff and they're not
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sort of really embedding that learning, So it's it's sort
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of seen as, yeah, you know, why is it not
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being embedded? We've we've delivered that training, but of course
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they didn't have the processes, that the resources, the policies,
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the sort of real human journey in those lived experiences
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as you mentioned, they didn't have any of that to
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really uphold the training, So of course it often felt
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flat and obviously wasn't embedded within the business. And that
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was sort of really again, why I brought you on board,
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because I knew that you'd be able to help me
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sort of drive that forward. And in our milestones program,
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you know, training is milestone three. So when we actually
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share that with our clients, they've kind of go, oh,
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why is training not first? Well, because you need everything
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else first for that training to take place and to
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be upheld so that it then is embedded into the
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learning and it just becomes business as usual. So even
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just in sort of our journey as a business over
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the last ten years, we've really seen what firms need
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for that training to land effectively, just for delegates to
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turn up knowing why they are why are they joining
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the training? You know how many people have turned up?
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So I don't know why I'm here because it hasn't
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been you know, sort of articulated well to them, this
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is part of your job or this is what we
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expect you to do, but because it's the right thing
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to do. So yeah, I just started share that because
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I think that's that's important too, is where does that
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training sit within the whole of that vulnerability client's journey.
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Yeah? Absolutely, it's the joining of adoptor, isn't it. I
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completely agree, And especially with start turnover. You know, people
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get promotions or they move on to different roles, and
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the training you know, you've done it at at a
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moment in time, but that cohort group of groups of
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people have changed, as well as customers and circumstances that
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they're being affected by, and you continuously need process or
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framework that is continuously monitoring. Okay, actually we're at this point,
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but what's changed retrospectively?
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Do we need to go back and review what we've.
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Done and build on that and change And again I
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completely understand that that's resource in time, But if organizations
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can have that mechanism within their organization, their processes, and
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their frameworks, they will get so much back from it
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at the end and it will save them a lot
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of time in the near future.
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Absolutely, Yeah, it is yeah, tick in the connecting all
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the dots, as you said, Yeah, very much. So we
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talked briefly about team members and what they're experiencing on
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the cause and I think sort of the more that
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AI is coming into play as well, and some of
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those sort of easier tasks and easier conversations that team
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members would have had in the past and now sort
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of been automated or customers can self serve on the
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digital journey. What do you think the toll is on
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those customer facing team members and what do you think
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they're they're quietly sort of holding I guess in that
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space and perhaps not even sharing with their colleagues or
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their team or their team leaders.
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Yeah, okay, yeah, quite a few things for me, I
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think again, using my experience and based on what I've
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seen and know, I think, firstly, just like recognizing, let's
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all take a moment to recognize that supporting customers a
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customer servants agent role is actually a demanding role, huge responsibility,
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huge you know, huge influencing over your customers and how
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they go away and speak about your organization. Based on
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the service they've they've you know, experienced, yet surprisingly it's
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often one of the lowest paid entry roles when you
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enter an organization.
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So I think.
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There's room there for us as a customer service industry
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to acknowledge that, and I would encourage firms to take
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action in the right way to address that. They have
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a huge, huge responsibility on their shoulders those those agents.
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I think probably what they quietly take home with them
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is probably more around the relentlessness of handling call after
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call or case after case, and probably not knowing when
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they pick up the phone or pick up an email
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or a letter what the customer is going to say
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to them and what the customer is going to need
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from them at that moment in time. So a bit
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like a box of chocolates, you know, you might not
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know which one you're going to pick up. They're having
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to change hats all of the time and switch their
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knowledge knowledge up. Okay, right, the customers are give me this,
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let me let me think. Okay, that's that process. Okay,
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I need to let them know about this. So they're juggling,
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juggling a lot all of the time. I think probably
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for me, one of the main things that I see
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agents take home is actually when they're handling emotionally charged
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or distressing calls, is that they will handle that call,
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probably to the best of their ability, and then move
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on to the next one because they are you know, internally,
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am I meeting my targets? Am I doing enough to day?
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You know? Is my manager going to be happy with
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me at the end of the week, month's day. But actually,
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whilst they've been doing all of that, they've probably been
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having some really difficult and challenging conversations that nobody else
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can hear them having. Because they are the only person
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speaking to that customer, they maybe be spoken to sometimes
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rudely or aggressively, not in the right respectable way, and
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they probably just think that a lot of that is
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part of the job. So you know, I need to
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I need to I just need to take that, I
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just need to listen to the customer speak to me
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like that. Or actually, I've just taken the call with
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a customer and what I've heard is actually really traumatizing.
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They're internalizing it, but they might be parking it to move.
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On to the next call.
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But actually five o'clock or six o'clock, you know, whenever
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they finish, they take they're taking that home with them,
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or it might be they're going home to put their
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kids to bed, so they're going into mum, dad mode
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or whatever, a parent mode, whatever.
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That might be.
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They then go to sleep nine o'clock, ten o'clock. It's
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churning around their mind and that possibly could be causing trauma,
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you know, internalize trauma to them as well and having
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an impact, not can impact to their resilience and well being.
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So there's so many things that that play here. I
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could go on forever about this topic and things that
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agents are taking home home with them that will then
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be affecting them in their personal lives as well as
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their working lives, you know, as well as whilst I'm
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on this call and I'm serving this customer right, let
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me remember, am I following the right process? Have I
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asked the customer how they like to be addressed today?
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Or have I done enough to pass my quality checks?
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You know, there's so so much it's a lot of
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a lot of pressure.
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Yeah, absolutely, you can probably see me NodD in all
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the way through that because yeah, I completely agree with
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all of that. And also as well, what we're hearing
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from our clients is they're also very young demographic as well,
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sort of eighteen to twenty four, so they may not
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also be having those life experiences. They can't sort of
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personally connect with potentially what the customer is sharing because
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they might still be living at home. They're not sure
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you know, well, I don't know how much our electricity
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bill is at home because I'm dad pay that. So
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so they haven't got that sort of personal lived experience
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that they can really fully connect to perhaps what that
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customer is experience in so I completely agree. And there
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are a couple of things that I wanted to share
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that have come out from from the training delegates that
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the training courses. The first one is is very much
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what you were saying about. Actually they're taking it home
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with them. And a lot of delegates are saying to me,
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especially in our Suicidal Customer Conversations training course, they're saying,
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but there's I want to do more. I want to
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do more to be able to support this customer. You know,
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where does my responsibility end?
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You know?
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And often they're taking those calls home and they're going
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to sort of think, oh, but but maybe I could
430
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have done this, and maybe I could have done that,
431
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and you know, is there anything else that we can
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do internally? Should I have signposted all all of these
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that you know, especially as well, people go into customer
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service purely because they care, so you know, they want
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to and they want to do the best for that person.
436
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So I know that that's definitely something delegates are sharing
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with me. You know, what else could I have done?
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And the likelihood is nothing because they've done everything that
439
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they possibly could in their job role and their responsibility.
440
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You know, they've signposted internally, they've signposted externally. But it's
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it's that reassurance, actually, you've done everything you possibly could,
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which perhaps they may not be getting from their colleagues
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or from their team leaders. So that was one thing
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extra that I wanted to share. And the other one,
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again from delegates, is I'm just checking in with them
446
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as we go through the training. You know, are you
447
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able to step away from your desk from the telephones,
448
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you know, when you have taken a really difficult call.
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And I would say ninety nine percent of the delegates
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say yes, they're able to step away. So there is
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no sort of undue pressure to stay at your desk,
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not from their team leaders, not from the firms, not
453
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from the organizations that they work for. However, what I'm
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seeing is they're putting that pressure on themselves because they
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know that, do you know what the customer service team
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were under resourced? If I step away for a five
457
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ten minute break, that then leaves my colleagues picking up
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those calls. So that's going to put extra pressure on
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my colleagues. And I'm not going to throw my colleagues
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under the bus just because I need to step away.
461
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So a lot of people are not taking those reset
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times purely because they're thinking, I'm not doing that to
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my colleagues. I don't know if you've came across that
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when you were in that environment.
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Yeah, I do.
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I think, you know, I think particularly if I think
467
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back to when I was in that environment, it was
468
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traditionally in an office because it was pre COVID. But
469
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they're probably even though you knew that you could do that,
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or even though you know clients tell me that they
471
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know they can do that, they do feel that stigma
472
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or that shame almost I need to go away and
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take take a break, yes, and just that responsibility, like
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you say, Helen, is not wanting to to let your
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colleagues down because you know, they know it's they know
476
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it's it's busy. So I think, you know, it's really
477
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key that leaders and firms are really recognizing that they
478
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or recognize the importance of you know, going back to
479
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their teams and just saying if you need a break,
480
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you know that's okay, just just just just just go
481
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for it. You know, it's it's no problem. Take take
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the time you need because it's normal and we all
483
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need that as as humans.
484
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:32.920
And I equally for.
485
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.279
Perhaps some people who are watching this, they perhaps are
486
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.079
working at home and they're not on the front line,
487
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:42.440
but equally they might have a stressful day and I
488
00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:44.079
think we can all probably put our hands up and
489
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:45.000
say we'll just.
490
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.960
Go for a walk around the block, or a run.
491
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:50.480
Or get a sandwich, whatever it might be, with no
492
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:56.319
qualms or questions or or shame. So absolutely, why should
493
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.720
that face and culture and environment not be created for
494
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:05.119
customer agents to do so? And even if it is created,
495
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.640
there's probably what I'm hearing is still a barrier for
496
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:12.720
those agents in feeling comfortable to do that.
497
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.400
Yeah, So again it comes back to sort of that
498
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:23.039
culture and the moral and ethical duty not just for customers,
499
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.519
but for team members as well. It is doing the
500
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.319
right thing because again they're humans, you know as well,
501
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.200
and they need they need to be looked after and supported.
502
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.920
And just going back to one other point you raise
503
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.440
helling around. You know, the question you get from delegates
504
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:40.160
is you know, was there anything else I could have
505
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.839
done for that customer in that situation? You know, it's
506
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:46.839
great that they're asking you because they're obviously wanting your
507
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.359
expertise and insight to enhance their skills and knowledge.
508
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:52.759
Equally, are they asking.
509
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:54.400
That question because, like you say, they might not have
510
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:58.920
necessarily received that reassurance from their organization or their leader
511
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:02.119
or whoever it is. And actually, you know, within a
512
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:05.319
role of customer service agent, your role is only within
513
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:07.960
your remit. You with the nicest will in the world,
514
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.720
cannot help everybody. You can need a horse to water,
515
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.440
You can't solve everybody's problems. But agents probably do just
516
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:17.839
need that feedback loop to say, do you know what
517
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.559
that sounded like a really difficult call you took there,
518
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:23.400
sounded like you did everything you can.
519
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:24.559
You know, are you okay?
520
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:26.599
Do you want to chat about it or you know
521
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.400
or whatever that support might look like and equally for
522
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.519
you know, people that are working from home, it is
523
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.440
just to check in during the day, whether that's a
524
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.920
text message or WhatsApp or you know MSN. You know, hey,
525
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.079
just wanted to see how you day it was going today.
526
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:44.240
Is there anything you need from me? You know, just
527
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.720
checking your just checking you're okay, you know, not micromanaging
528
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.519
you clear if I here, if you need anything, yes,
529
00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.839
you know, creating that space for that person to be like, oh,
530
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.039
actually you know, yeah, I'm working from home today. My
531
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:58.359
husband's out or my mum and dad's out.
532
00:30:58.559 --> 00:30:58.759
Yeah.
533
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:01.359
Actually I've taken a really differ and cool, it's cool. Cool,
534
00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:03.759
I'm going to take five minutes or actually, yeah, I
535
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:05.839
would like to speak to you about it. Is that okay?
536
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:07.519
So important?
537
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:10.960
Absolutely, and that connection is absolutely right, isn't it. Yeah,
538
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:14.480
just checking throughout the day and making sure that it
539
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:17.119
is coming from a place of good intention is not yeah,
540
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:21.160
sort of in the guise of micromanaging.
541
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:20.720
It is.
542
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:22.599
It is purely actually, do you know what, I really
543
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.759
do care. I really do want to support you, absolutely,
544
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.359
especially if they know that that colleague is going through
545
00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:32.400
something difficult themselves. You know, we talk about vulnerability and customers.
546
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.559
But yeah, the likely good is that colleagues are going
547
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:39.160
through bereavement, divorce, financial difficulty, you know, ongoing health conditions,
548
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:41.720
all of those, you know. So it's it's it's yeah,
549
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.160
really checking in with the team members and making sure
550
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.000
I'm here and I guess as well. It's it's it's
551
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:54.839
not leaving it to that team member to tell the
552
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:01.119
team manager. It's it's yeah, because often because oh, yeah,
553
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:03.720
you know, let me know if you need anything. But
554
00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:05.759
actually some peple sometimes people might not be able to
555
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.400
articulate that. They might not have the courage or the
556
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.039
energy to sort of say, actually, do you know what
557
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:13.119
I need help? So it is then creating that opportunity
558
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:15.079
and just sort of say, might let's just catch up
559
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.920
for five ten minutes, how you're doing, you know, what
560
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:20.160
what can I do to help? So maybe being a
561
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.920
little bit more proactive from a team leader's point of view,
562
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.119
just just doing that because actually, if that team member
563
00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:28.480
is overwhelmed, if they are stretched, if they are worried
564
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:32.160
about dropping balls and end things like that, then the
565
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.160
likelihood is they're not going to reach out for help.
566
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.039
Yeah, that so true, so true, And I think normalizing
567
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:40.279
it from a leader's aspect as well. So they are
568
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.799
having that conversation with their you know, their team members.
569
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:45.599
Oh do you know what, I had a white day
570
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:48.519
of it yesterday. We make sure I have an easy
571
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.799
day to day headspace and well, you know, whilst that
572
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.759
might might not be the case for their teams necessarily,
573
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.079
but you know, I'm going to take five minutes today.
574
00:32:57.240 --> 00:32:59.519
You know, I think you should too, or we'll take
575
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:01.599
half now today. Yeah, why don't you go?
576
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:03.319
Yeah, I'm going to go and get a coffee and
577
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:05.599
cake and then I'm going to come back and start work.
578
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:10.000
You know, normalizing it as WELLS is so important.
579
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:10.880
So important, isn't it?
580
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:11.119
Yeah?
581
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:14.920
Absolutely, realt so, but I think we could just talk
582
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.599
for hours. Can we about of all of the vulnerability space?
583
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:22.480
I'm conscious of the time, but so thinking about sort
584
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.079
of what's gone on over the last ten years, What
585
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:27.759
do you think is going to happen over the next
586
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:29.960
ten years? What do you think vulnerability will look like?
587
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.400
What do you think that support will look like as
588
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.000
we move forward into the next decade.
589
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:43.000
Wow, well that's an interesting and terrifying question. Yeah, so okay,
590
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:46.720
so there are so many thoughts around this. So my
591
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:50.160
first thought is primarily we think where we are today
592
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:54.119
moving forward ten years, the moment we're entering the world
593
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.519
of AI era, a lot of testing going on, you know,
594
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.799
some people using it for the first time, and also
595
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.960
equally a lot of people asking us what are your thoughts.
596
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.199
Have you seen, you know, any examples of where it's
597
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:13.480
working really really well. There is no doubt that AI
598
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.119
is going to have its place in the next ten
599
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:17.599
years and.
600
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.159
Our future futures to come.
601
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.400
So my view is that it will be used a
602
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.719
lot more in terms of I think organizations will have
603
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:32.239
it embedded into their platform systems where you know, a
604
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:37.920
customer interaction is happening and keywords phrases are perhaps being used,
605
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:43.400
and it's you know, triggering support options for both customers.
606
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.480
And agents to use, which will be.
607
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:52.039
Helpful, you know, for for both, you know, I'm I'm sure. However,
608
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:56.320
I do still very much see the agent is going
609
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:00.519
to be needed, so it needs there's always to need
610
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.960
to be a humanized service, and ultimately in that process,
611
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:08.159
it is going to be the agent, the human that
612
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:12.559
we'll be able to tailor the individual or specific outcome
613
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.760
for the customer and create that experience with the customer
614
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:20.360
not an AI robotic journey. So I think farms are
615
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:25.480
really going to need to, you know, carefully map those
616
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.679
journeys and make sure that there are appropriate handoff points
617
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:35.119
to agents where that's needed. However, based on what I've
618
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:39.119
seen here at the moment, I think that perhaps a
619
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:47.000
lot of organizations or senior leaders, board boards might think, right,
620
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.440
we'll implement AI and it's going to save us x
621
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:52.559
amount of money, it's going to give the customer a
622
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:57.000
quicker journey, you know, and ultimately, you know, we won't
623
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:01.039
need as many people, so to speak. I don't think
624
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:02.880
that is going to be the case, and I think
625
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:06.320
they will quite quickly realize sooner rather than later, that
626
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:09.199
there's a place for both. By all means, I'm not
627
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:14.920
saying that, you know, organizations, all organizations necessarily think that,
628
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.840
but they are really going to need to nurture that
629
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:19.320
there is.
630
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:24.000
A place for both. I think also in.
631
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:29.159
Terms of vulnerability and support needs. See, the world we
632
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.360
live in is ever changing.
633
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:31.440
We all know that.
634
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:37.360
I think, you know, vulnerability and needs are always going
635
00:36:37.400 --> 00:36:38.079
to evolve.
636
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:40.400
It's never going to be one and done.
637
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.960
If you think we've had COVID that was six years ago,
638
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.000
you know, without being doom and gloom. We don't know
639
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:49.760
what's coming next and what crisis or what you know,
640
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:53.000
you know, the event we're going to need to respond
641
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:58.679
to and support. And I think though with that, actually
642
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:02.480
the term vulnerability and knowing that we need to support
643
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.599
customers is more recognized, So I think it's actually just
644
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:09.719
going to be really normalized in customer service. So at
645
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:12.400
the moment, what I see is a lot of specialist
646
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:17.800
teams or vulnerability teams and vulnerability champions, which is fantastic
647
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:23.440
and excellent, but not all organizations have those. And I
648
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:28.960
think going forward that actually having specialists, triarge teams, vulnerability champions, etc.
649
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.360
Is just going to be part of BAU and you're
650
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.800
going to need it to deliver an excellent customer service.
651
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.760
And actually customers will just expect that you have that
652
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:43.039
in place. They are going to be expecting that level
653
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:48.440
of service and support. I think also you touched on
654
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:52.480
generations earlier. Different generations are going to be at play
655
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:57.079
in ten years time, so perhaps those younger generations are
656
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:02.039
dealing with customers now, they're going to have different experiences
657
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.960
in ten years time. So I think that firms are
658
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.559
going to need to factor in and also journey map.
659
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:14.519
How do those generations, generations, you know, skills, expertise, How
660
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:17.039
is that going to influence our customer service and what
661
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.119
are we going to need to use and pull on,
662
00:38:20.119 --> 00:38:23.000
you know at different times. I don't know I explained
663
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:27.719
that very well. But I think that in itself is.
664
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:30.760
Yeah, five generations in the work place. Yeah, it's so interesting,
665
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:31.199
isn't it.
666
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.719
Yeah, should be, you know, it should be looked at.
667
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:38.000
But I think it's going to be really normal and expected,
668
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.760
and it's not just going to be regulatory regulatory compliance.
669
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.920
I think we're going to see a real, real shift, brilliant.
670
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.039
So exciting to see, but obviously still got a long
671
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:55.119
way to go. Yeah, and I completely agree with the AI.
672
00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:58.840
I think you're absolutely right. I think A recently delivered
673
00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:03.679
a toolkit session on sort of you know, are we
674
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:06.440
losing the human touch? And that was it was really
675
00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.800
interesting to research it and to sort of see, you know,
676
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:12.280
where AI sits within the role of customer service. And
677
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:17.079
it's interesting to see tech firms saying AI plus human.
678
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:19.800
I turned it on its head for the toolkit and
679
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.119
I said, actually human plus AI, so actually, we're never
680
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:25.599
going to ever get rid of the human elements, So
681
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:30.239
it's got to be human elements first, with AI supporting them.
682
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:33.679
So even just the way that we position sort of
683
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:37.920
AI and human and human AI, that's even that's important
684
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.320
because the greater emphasis needs to be on the human element,
685
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:47.239
with that support of AI in the background completely agreen.
686
00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:50.800
And then just a couple of things that I thought
687
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.159
was around sort of the mental health crisis. I think
688
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:58.199
that's not going to go away. People are leading very
689
00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.119
very busy lives with are often very overwhelmed. So I
690
00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:05.320
think we need to be prepared that the conversations that
691
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:07.639
we're going to get from customers are going to be
692
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:12.000
far more emotive. So we need to be upskilling frontline
693
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:14.920
teams to be able to manage those and to build
694
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.960
up their resilience before they have those conversations, but also
695
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:21.079
to make sure that they navigate support once they've had
696
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.559
that conversation. And my other thought was around actually mentioned
697
00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.039
around the generations, just thinking actually, in ten year this time,
698
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:30.559
we're all going to be ten years older. Are scaring
699
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:34.239
to say, I'll be sixty two, So that's like super scary,
700
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.119
But of course you know older people, we're living much
701
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.400
older now, so we're going to have a larger demographic
702
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:45.079
of older people who with that, we can't assume that
703
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:46.719
they're going to be vulnerable because of their age, but
704
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:49.719
it does bringer then you know, age related health conditions,
705
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:54.920
age related and situations and things like that. So those
706
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.000
were just two of the thoughts that I had around
707
00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.400
sort of what vulnerability might look like. I don't know
708
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:03.599
if you've if they've come up in client conversations or
709
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:05.119
something that you've been considering.
710
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:11.800
Yeah, absolutely, especially around I think the the older generally
711
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:17.280
living older and you know, caring for parents or your grandparents,
712
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:22.840
you know, tensions. Did we invest enough early people? You know,
713
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:25.840
you know we're living longer, we're running out of money,
714
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:33.400
financial difficulty. You touched on the mental health and you
715
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:38.719
know support needs. I think absolutely for customers, absolutely, but
716
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:43.320
I think equally for employees. So you know, you know,
717
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:47.000
you take gen Z. We're very much aware or perhaps
718
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:50.440
more open now to discussing you know, suffering with anxiety
719
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:54.639
or you know, mental health challenges, whatever it might be.
720
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.599
But actually when those people go to work for firms,
721
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.400
they expect that support to be put in place for them,
722
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:03.400
Like it's just an expectation now.
723
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:05.760
So equally in that.
724
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:10.719
Regard as well, for employees as well as customers. You know,
725
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:15.320
I think the expectations for deliverance on all things customer service,
726
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.519
but it's beyond customer service. It's how are you going
727
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:20.760
to support me when I'm in financial hardship? How are
728
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.639
you going to support me when I'm not having a
729
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:26.639
such good day? You know, firms need to cater for
730
00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:31.639
that in both both regards, and that's quite fascinating and interesting.
731
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:34.719
I think for us as a US as a world.
732
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.760
Yes, perhaps that could be another podcast episode that we
733
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:40.880
we sort of bring to life later then, because I
734
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.000
think that is yeah, yeah, expectations of the workforce and
735
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:47.960
the different generations of the workforce. But actually, yeah, or
736
00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:51.599
firms need to be mindful of when when supporting everyone
737
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:56.559
in their teams. Yeah, absolutely meaty topic. Yeah, yeah, but
738
00:42:56.599 --> 00:43:02.400
it's really important. Yeah, I agree. So I'm conscious that
739
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.039
we've come to the end of our time. As I said,
740
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:07.840
I we could probably talk about this for hours, and
741
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:09.679
I know that when we do get together we do
742
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.119
we do just sort of spark each other off. With you,
743
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:16.320
we don't stop talking to about vulnerability. So it's just
744
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:21.360
such a fascinating topic. And I just feel so privileged
745
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:25.400
to have sort of fallen into this space and just
746
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.840
really sort of every day I'm learning, every day I'm
747
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:32.880
here in different lived experiences. I just feel really privileged
748
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.639
to be able to create space for people to be
749
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:41.039
able to share that and to explore that topic, and
750
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:43.400
for you to come on board as in the team
751
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.440
as well to share your expertise and knowledge as well
752
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.280
as just being brilliant. So thank you for joining the team,
753
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:53.920
thank you for all that you've done. So Yeah, so
754
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:58.000
any final thoughts you'd like to share with the listeners
755
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:00.880
just before we sort of bring the episod to a close.
756
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.079
Yeah, I think, you know, just in terms of when
757
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.000
you think about the job while you're doing so, if
758
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:11.639
you are in customer service, you know, we never get
759
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.679
out there to do a bad job, and actually you'll
760
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.519
be facing challenges in your life and some days you
761
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:20.800
just won't necessarily feel like you have the energy or
762
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.079
you know, that empathy to be able to support people.
763
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.880
And I think if you do just acknowledge that that's okay,
764
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:33.239
sort of like lean into those feelings and just put
765
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.360
your hand up for help and ask for support if
766
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.760
you can, would be my first first tip, because that's
767
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:42.800
that saying you can't you know, drink from an empty
768
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.599
cup is very much true when you're delivering customer service.
769
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.320
And equally, if there's any leadership teams listening to this
770
00:44:50.639 --> 00:44:54.840
is really sort of you know, think about perhaps think about,
771
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.440
you know, are the things that you do in your
772
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.440
day to day working day really setting up and supporting
773
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:04.800
your teams when they perhaps need you most.
774
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.599
Even just ask them, you know, what do you need
775
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:07.880
from me?
776
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:10.320
Or how will I know you know, when you're having
777
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:13.239
perhaps a not so good day, what's your preferred method
778
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:16.960
of contact? Just asking some real sort of basic questions
779
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.719
can really help to create that trust to know that
780
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.800
your colleagues can get support from you if they need to.
781
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:25.920
And i'd probably.
782
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.719
Say for bank executive teams and board teams, if you're
783
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.599
listening to this, you know we're very busy in in
784
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:37.400
date to day roles. Is probably just really take the
785
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.000
time to go back to your frontline teams and actually
786
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.159
sit with them, will perhaps have a cup of tea
787
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.360
with them, whatever it might be, and really get to
788
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.320
know some of the challenges that they're up against when
789
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:50.719
they're speaking to customers. Give them that time spend your
790
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:52.800
time with them, and I really think that you'll be
791
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:57.239
surprised by what you find and what you see, and
792
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.719
you know, perhaps just just ask the question, if this
793
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.400
were my loved one speaking with my firm today, would
794
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.519
I be happy with the level of service they've received
795
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:11.360
or the way that they're being treated? And I think,
796
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:14.000
in terms of everything that's gone on in the world
797
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:18.119
the past ten years, is just us remembering that as humans,
798
00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:22.760
we're all susceptible to vulnerability. Anything can change for any
799
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:26.400
one of us anytime. You never know what's around the corner.
800
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:29.800
And it doesn't take a lot to be a nice human.
801
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:35.159
And just you know, my phrase, I guess is just
802
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.239
help a human when a human needs helping.
803
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:42.559
Quite simply, I love that, Absolutely love that.
804
00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:42.960
Jenna.
805
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.719
Thank you, thank you for sharing those such such powerful
806
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:49.280
thoughts and yeah, absolutely mirror mirror my thoughts. So yeah,
807
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:52.000
thank you, thank you so much, and just thank you
808
00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:54.159
for being a guest today on the very first episode
809
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:58.400
back in the new series. And we've got an amazing
810
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:01.119
year to look forward to with this year. We've got
811
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:04.320
the conference that's happening later this year, which was super
812
00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:07.840
excited about, and lots more products and services come in.
813
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.599
So it's going to be an incredible year and I'm
814
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:13.039
just thrilled to be spending it with you and the
815
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.440
rest of the team here at Hellen Petov Training. So
816
00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:17.239
thank you for being a guest today.
817
00:47:18.039 --> 00:47:20.039
You're so welcome, Helen. Thank you for having me, and
818
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:22.559
I'm really looking forward to seeing your future podcast guests
819
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.480
as well. So always so much to learn from everybody,
820
00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:27.280
So yeah, thank you, and we've got some.
821
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:29.039
Good ones lined up as a al I'm looking forward
822
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.159
to that as well. Thank you for joining us for
823
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:35.320
this episode of unlock in Vulnerability. If today's conversation has
824
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.159
resonated with you, please feel free to share it with
825
00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:41.639
others who may find it useful. You'll find more episodes
826
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:45.199
like this by searching unlock in Vulnerability wherever you listen
827
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:48.880
to podcasts. If this episode has left you with questions
828
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:53.159
about any aspect of consumer vulnerability, I regularly host free
829
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.719
Q and A sessions on Zoom, where you're welcome to
830
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:59.280
join the conversation. You can find out more at Helen
831
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:03.320
Petovo dot Thank you for listening, and please take care
832
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:10.519
Mm hmm.