[00:00:00] Beki: When you open your heart to new experiences, the people you meet will change you. One of my first experiences with this is from one of the first jobs I ever had. It didn't pay that well. I had no medical benefits. The people owe, they were amazing. I'd grown up in farming communities and I still love the energy of that environment.
[00:00:22] The familiarity of the origins will stay with me always. Then I went to university and was exposed to different people and different views. Then this position opened me up to others in the world. I was a project coordinator working with a variety of contractors. We were working on projects associated with the university, U-S-A-I-D, the World Bank, and.
[00:00:46] Other impactful organizations, the projects covered the world. I would hear stories from the woman who worked in countries of South and Central America. Another guy returned from Niger with gifts [00:01:00] for everyone, and I still have that boutique wall hanging, hanging in my house. Decades later. My projects, I was more deeply exposed to cultures in Central Asia, Russia, and Central Europe.
[00:01:13] The work was focused on how to privatize property in former socialist and communist countries. The history, the socioeconomics, and the cultural differences were fascinating. And new to me. I didn't work there long, but it changed me much later. My husband and I took our first international trip together to Norway.
[00:01:34] I realized that as a traveler instead of a tourist, I had the opportunity to have that feeling of discovery all over again. We were hooked and travel has been a priority for us ever since. Not everyone can or wants to travel like I do. That's where I am now, but that's not where it started. Welcome to unlearning the World through the [00:02:00] Looking Glass, where we explore the moments, learnings, and experiences that changed how we saw the world forever.
[00:02:06] I'm Becky and I'm joined by Shannon and Richard. I. In this episode, we'll share our personal experiences with creating new human connections, the lessons it taught us, and how we relate to it today. Let's get started. Hi everyone.
[00:02:21] Rick: Hey Becky.
[00:02:23] Shannon: Hey.
[00:02:24] Beki: I'm curious about what resonates with you guys about, you know, when you got to meet people who were not like you and it kind of expanded your world a little bit.
[00:02:36] Shannon: I would say I feel like my entire life has been an encompassing experience of different cultures. I don't know if it was fortunate or unfortunately I moved around, so when I was younger, I went to an all Catholic school. I am not Catholic, but I was introduced to the faith from pre-K all the way up to fourth grade.
[00:02:58] And then I moved [00:03:00] to, I wanna say a predominantly white neighborhood, but also a predominantly Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. So I went to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs because that was my middle school experience. So I was always ingrained in other cultures, other faiths. And then in, in high school, I went to a more diverse, where there was white, black.
[00:03:25] Spanish, et cetera. Learned more frequently. Spanish from a conversational, uh, perspective from friends and then college. Same thing. So I think since I was younger, I've always understood connection through getting to know the differences versus being similar because I was never in a atmosphere where I felt like I was.
[00:03:50] In the same room was everyone that was the same as me. It was always the opposite. So I always had to kind of connect in a way and learn others beliefs, faith, [00:04:00] culture, et cetera. And I always, I feel like that made me a more diverse, well-grounded understanding, being able to connect with people from childhood, if
[00:04:11] Rick: that makes sense.
[00:04:12] It's interesting that you talked about not always being the predominant. Yeah, it's something that I used to think about all the time. Like you go into a room and you would kind of count to see like how many other black people are there.
[00:04:27] Shannon: Yeah.
[00:04:28] Rick: I remember talking to someone about this who wasn't black, and he talked about how one of his friends that was black said a similar thing, and he really didn't understand what that meant until one day he found himself in a place where he was the minority, and then he recognized, oh.
[00:04:47] There's nobody that looks like me in a room. Now I kind of understand why my black friend would count and see how many other black people were in a room because it's not something that everybody has to face. But it's definitely like when it's a [00:05:00] normal thing, you kind of look around and you notice each other really quickly.
[00:05:03] I heard people talk about the head nod that black people give each other, and even when I went to Germany, like when I saw the black people, it's like universal. It's even over there. You kind of look at each other. You make eye contact. You don't say anything. You just do the head nod or uh, Hey, how's it going?
[00:05:19] Something like that, just because you're looking for something that looks like you. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a place. And be put in situations where I was around all different types of races, religions, and people, and it is that has really give me a good taste of the world. I do remember one time where I heard a Indian accent for the first time.
[00:05:44] It was not my proudest moment. I was very young. And I heard someone speaking and like we kind of all laughed, but since I am a loud mouth, since a kid, mine rung out the hardest and I got rebuked by my teacher and [00:06:00] it kind of made me pause and stop for a minute, but kind of realizing that I didn't mean any offense by it.
[00:06:05] It's just the first time I heard it like it was so new to me like that that was before like. You would see diversity on television. There was no diversity. You didn't see that kind of stuff in cartoons and television shows really like that much back then. So it, it kind of opened my eyes to it. So, but it's been so many different times where I've had that experience and I think it's a little bit different.
[00:06:28] Like as a minority, it kind of tunes me in a little bit more. I think one of the biggest surprises that I had, and it wasn't even me, but it was talking to someone and I was interviewing someone and he said that he had never been around white people until he went to college, and that was the opposite experience of what I had experienced because I met a lot of people when I went to university that said, oh, you the first black person I've ever met in person.
[00:06:54] He was like, I had never met a white person in person. And I was like, wow, that's crazy. I guess it, I guess that does happen [00:07:00] both ways.
[00:07:00] Beki: Yeah. Well, and that was relatively true for me as well. I. Where when I was growing up grade school, I mean, I was part of a farming community and everyone looked like me, you know, blue eyed blonde hair.
[00:07:18] I mean, it was strange if someone had brown hair and brown eyes, much less, you know, being a, any other kind of race or any kind of nationality. I did go to school with a guy who was. Uh, Korean, born and adopted, and I think about him a lot now actually, because I wonder what his experience was in reality. I would imagine it was much tougher than I ever could have understood at that point in time.
[00:07:51] And if I could talk to him now, I'd be really curious about, you know, how has his life changed, you know, since we graduated [00:08:00] because. I hope that he has found sort of that understanding and that connection to his origins in any way that he would want to. For me, it was when I went to university that I met so many different people who didn't come from my background, didn't look like me, and I got really curious about that, and I wanted to spend time.
[00:08:26] Around people who weren't like me, because I knew I didn't fit in with the people who did look like me. I felt like I, and it's not that I didn't like them or didn't respect them, it's just I wanted things that they didn't care about and they wanted things that I didn't care about. So it was a recognition that I needed to find other people who shared.
[00:08:52] My interests and my goals so that I could kind of grow next to them. And I think about some [00:09:00] of the relationships that I had. I mean, the company that I was talking about in my introduction there, that was where I worked, not exactly right before I went to Yale, but. A little bit before then, and my boss at that time was still a friend of mine right before I left, and he was so influential because he said, Becky, you are going to meet all these different kinds of people when you go into that school.
[00:09:28] Do not work. I. I know that you're paying for it. I know you don't have the money, but don't work because those relationships are going to be incredible and meaningful to you going forward. So don't miss out. So I'm kind of wondering, I mean, you had a different experience and a different focus, but what were some of the relationships that you had that.
[00:09:52] Really were those big moments of, Hey, I should tune into this thing about how people are the same and how [00:10:00] people are different.
[00:10:01] Shannon: I don't know if I have the answer to that in in the grand scheme of things, because if I reflect on my life, like I said, I feel like, I don't know if it was intentional through my parents, but.
[00:10:14] I was always exposed to different cultures and being my, being my own. So when I got to the point of high school and I went on college tours, I went and visited a lot of historically black colleges. My mom was adamant that I left the state of Connecticut to expose myself to different environments, to different places.
[00:10:33] Being in the city, you know, she encouraged that. So I was very much. It was planned for me to go out outside of the state, right? And so I left the state and I had to, I wanted to go to a city. I really thought I wanted to go to New York. I wanted to be in a melting pot. I did not. I did not like New York, sorry to anybody that lives there.
[00:10:57] And I landed in Philly and it was the [00:11:00] best decision. Shout out to Temple University. That was the best decision I've ever made It, it exposed me. Again, diver diversity was consistent. I can't say through high school to adulthood. There was diverse cultures, religions, races, like there was never. I never felt like what I did in grade school, in middle, middle school.
[00:11:23] I never was counting the faces. At one point I thought Temple was a historically black college based off of the ratio at the time. At the time. Okay. So that's hilarious. When I went, it was a lot of black people, a few people that looked like me, not saying I, I think we were, if not 50% close to that at the time that I went there.
[00:11:45] So. That always drew to me. I wanted to to be seen and acknowledged in a place where I didn't feel alone and ostracized, but I also wanted to embrace different cultures, and so that was always in me. I don't know where it came [00:12:00] from. I don't know where it started. I don't know if it's because I was always in an array and at one point I was the odd one, and then I kind of mixed, mixed in as I got, got older.
[00:12:10] But diversity was always a big, I wanted to be around different cultures. And let's talk about this. So there are black people, but there are also African Americans, like people that have information on where they started, right? So if you go into the Caribbean culture, so I even learned that like I am black, African American, if you wanna say so, because I'm assuming my slaves came over.
[00:12:33] But I don't have recog, I don't have knowledge of that. If I talk to somebody that's has family in Ghana and can go back and know their lineage, that was a totally different experience for me and I didn't learn that until college. And the nuances of within the black community, how it's really important to have that foundation.
[00:12:52] I don't, but I respected those individuals that have that. Knowledge of their lineage and where they come from and their [00:13:00] ancestry. That's not something that I personally able to experience. So that's one thing I did that was like life changing in regards to understanding, um, relationships beyond just like my personal experience in the world.
[00:13:13] Beki: How interested would you be in finding that out?
[00:13:16] Shannon: Oh, my husband did. Did it? I haven't. I have a good idea, but. I'm not against it. It's just at the time, like I think it was like very sketchy. My mom's looking into stuff. I can go back two or three generations, but they all start here.
[00:13:31] Beki: Okay,
[00:13:32] Shannon: so I have no idea beyond that.
[00:13:36] So assumption is Africa. 'cause everyone came from there. If they, if we're all taught the same. Right. But I don't have that information. If, if the history books are accurate, that's yes. You know, depending on what history you wanna, you wanna refer to Indeed. But yes, that, yeah. I mean
[00:13:50] Rick: if you think about history, science, or religion, pretty much they all say the same thing.
[00:13:56] Right? That we are one race. The
[00:13:59] Shannon: [00:14:00] human
[00:14:00] Rick: race.
[00:14:00] Shannon: I, that's why I was like, I don't, whatever you, whatever, whatever people wanna refer to is totally fine, but that's, Africa is the one. But hey.
[00:14:09] Rick: Yeah. You know, for me as a minority growing up, and it could just be me and Shannon, so you could tell me if your experience is kind of different, it's almost like you're taught, maybe not even taught directly.
[00:14:20] There's nothing that anybody actually came on and tells you, but you're always adjusting to a culture that's not yours.
[00:14:28] Shannon: Hmm.
[00:14:29] Rick: So when you're looking at people, it's a little bit, Shannon's not in her head, so it must be her experience too. When you're looking at people, you're kind of always adjusting to the people around you.
[00:14:39] One thing that when I really learned about psychology in the way that our mind works, I really wanted to be intentional about not judging a book by its cover, because I kind of say this all the time, that as soon as my mom had to talk with me about being black. I became, I started studying marketing [00:15:00] at that moment because I wanted to make sure the image that I gave matched the image that was inside of me, because people say, don't judge a book by its cover, but most people don't take the time to read.
[00:15:11] So I always wanted to make sure that my cover matched what was inside of me. So if that's what I want to be treated like, and then I'm Christian too. So that kind of plays a role into it. So it says, don't judge a bookwise cover. Treat people how you want to be treated. I always resisted the urge to automatically put people into one group just because I didn't want people to put me into one group.
[00:15:36] So I always tried when I met someone, I wanted to meet them as an individual first before you started expanding out. Because each person is a part of multiple, I don't know if culture is the word, but culture, for lack of a better word, we're all part of different things because. A black male from the south is gonna be different from, uh, a black [00:16:00] atheist male in, in the North or New York, or you think about even, I feel like I bring rap in a lot of stuff.
[00:16:11] You think about Drake and j Cole, they're both mixed individuals. A part of the black race, Drake grew up in Toronto. J Cole grew up in North Carolina. They, they, so you look at them and they're like, oh, they're both mixed. So they must have similar experiences. No, the regions made them different. Their experiences, who they grew up with made them different.
[00:16:34] The areas that they grew up with made them different. So, so many different things. You could just put them together as, oh, they're mixed. And they rap and think that that's the same. They're gonna rap about the same thing, think about the same thing. But that's not the case.
[00:16:47] Beki: No.
[00:16:48] Shannon: Yeah, I, I would agree. I think you said it more eloquently than me.
[00:16:53] I think that being black. Whether it's a inherited [00:17:00] gene, I don't know, but it always has. I don't know where it came from. Again, maybe it was learned or not, but it's always positioned me to be able to assimilate in some ways, shape or form. So I've always been the individual, 'cause I don't even wanna put it, I don't, I really don't wanna put about race, but.
[00:17:20] In general, because sometimes you are the minority in the case, especially, and I'm also a woman, I have learned to be open to the environment in which I am in and the, you know, speaking about just making, even making assumptions. You know that saying that. Don't assume it makes a, that thing outta you and me.
[00:17:44] Yeah, there you go.
[00:17:48] The black or African diaspora is very wide. Very large. And so the assumptions north south, like you're gonna talk about rap. Let's break it down even more. There's East Coast, there's [00:18:00] west coast, there's down south rap, there's, you know, new, uh, New York has its own. But again, you can't make assumptions just based off of a skin tone.
[00:18:11] You can't make assumptions. I was exposed to a myriad of different religions going into college that I was unbeknownst to me. So I think for me. I've always been in a position of openness because I was forced to. I guess that's the, that's the way. I don't think I have the luxury to be in a space where I can be so closed off to not be open to other people's experiences, cultures, race, ways of life.
[00:18:40] That just has not been my experience on this planet. Yeah. As of yet.
[00:18:45] Beki: Well, and I think it's that nature versus nurture piece of things that I'm, I'm kind of hearing in that and certainly. You know, even as a white person looking at these things, I mean, it's like even within my [00:19:00] heritage going back, part of my heritage is Scandinavian and even that split between Norwegian and Swedish, and it's so ridiculous in my mind.
[00:19:15] But there was a point in history. Within my grandfather's lifetime where if a Swede and a Norwegian were married and one died, that the other one wasn't allowed into the cemetery, like seriously, like how ridiculous is that? Y'all are almost twins by appearance in some of those cases. Not all to be fair, but when you're so similar in culture and region and all of those things, and yet.
[00:19:46] There's just this bitterness between groups. I just think about how as humans, sometimes if you don't look exactly like me, if you are not part of my specified group, [00:20:00] and I mean this is, this is nature because it was how we protected ourselves. If you look a little different. And really, if you look a whole lot different, then you might be a threat and I need to evaluate that.
[00:20:13] And I don't think that in our times now, we need to worry so much about that. But certainly that's the way our bodies are geared is that becomes a threat and we have to do the fight flight phenomenon. I think that there's a, a whole piece to that where I now walk into relationships. Recognizing that if I've made up a story about who that person is based on, like Richard said, you know, the books cover, I have set myself up to fail.
[00:20:45] How many times have I had conversations with people by phone or even by video, and then I meet them in person and I'm like. Okay, so that's not really what I expected. I mean, even the first time I met Richard, he was [00:21:00] not the same height that I had in my head. Right? Like, I'm like, okay, like, and it was fine.
[00:21:06] Thought, fine. Probably thought I was short. Well, yeah, you are not short my friend. So there's that, and I am, so it is something that stands out for me, but. I think that we do, we make assumptions and we have to really have a little bit of empathy to understand, hey, you know what, maybe this person has had an experience, and then the curiosity to, to understand that.
[00:21:30] But then to me it's really about listening to who they are instead of filling in the gaps and making the assumptions about it.
[00:21:38] Rick: I think as I got older, that thought has crossed my mind before where like, knowing that. You don't necessarily have to assimilate, but you have to be adaptable to fit into different situations.
[00:21:50] Yeah. The thing that kind of makes me, I don't wanna say angry because I don't want to be angry. The thing that kind of disappoints me as a [00:22:00] society is that, you know, growing up I thought that was really the norm is like, all right, we're not gonna judge a book by its cover. We're, we're, everybody's gonna learn that everybody's individuals, and that's not the case.
[00:22:13] And I feel like it's so sad that as a minority, that we're always expected to assimilate to one particular thing. I mean, we have a whole administration and a whole group of people right now in America that's trying to make everything a specific way with no flexibility. Everybody needs to be this, it needs to be Bibles in school.
[00:22:35] As a Christian, I don't, I don't agree with that. I don't feel like you need to force your religion on, on people. And it's like, so I agree like Christianity is good, but I disagree that you need to force it on everybody in the schools. So even in that, it's like why do we all have to adjust to what you think is right?
[00:22:54] Why can't we find. A place. And that's where I was hoping that we were going. And [00:23:00] that's probably why I've been so sad this year. I really hope that we're moving towards a place where hey America is, is supposed to be this great melting pot full of diversity. People of all nations have, have gathered here.
[00:23:12] You know, we had a, a tragic past, but we're moving past the racism and the bigotry and all of the things that define our history. In the beginning, and we're all coming together in America special because we're made up of so many different people and now it's kind of like, oh, let's backtrack that. Yeah, I agree.
[00:23:31] And it's like one of the saddest things ever.
[00:23:34] Shannon: See, I I, I am, I don't know what to call myself if I'm a negative Nancy or whatever. That was never my. Visual of what the world was coming to. And I'll say that 'cause we'll go back to this, right? The, the as the assimilate assimilating or being flexible or adaptable in nature, you have to understand if you're coming from that perspective, which is [00:24:00] why I said I don't know if that's a blessing or a curse.
[00:24:02] To be black American, have that adaptability. But if you know that a chunk of the world is not exposed or has that flexibility within them, and they weren't, it's not ingrained in them, they didn't learn it. How is that foundation gonna grow and spread in the world? 'cause you have a whole group of people that have not been forced.
[00:24:25] Middle America, possibly maybe, who are not forced to be exposed or adaptable to anything other than their beliefs. What's familiar to them. And so when you're placed in a, in a situation where that's always a constant, somewhere, someplace, then you have children that are growing up in it. Then you have them turning into adults.
[00:24:46] Then you have them being elected officials and the cycle hasn't stopped. Yes, there are more people that are being educated and and exposed to different cultures, different opinions, but there is still. A big [00:25:00] foundation where that generationally is like, no, you don't have to do that. Your way is the right way.
[00:25:05] No one sees different, there's no different opinions, there's no different races. We're the top race. So to me, I don't know if that's negative of me to say, because again, it could be a blessing or a curse that. As a African American woman, I have always had to be flexible, adapt agile in every single environment I am, but I am realistic to know that not everybody has to do that, and not everybody is going to do that in their life.
[00:25:30] Maybe they'll be forced in their adulthood, but at that point, yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a rough transition that's almost
[00:25:35] Beki: sink and swim in terms of making that change. And I think what I agree with in, in terms of what Richard had said was. That I'm disappointed in where we are. I also agree with you, Shannon, that the adaptability, this idea and, and all, I'll say it this way, when freedom is.
[00:25:59] Everyone [00:26:00] has to agree with me. I don't, I don't agree with the definition of freedom. To me, freedom means that people have an opportunity to coexist, believing anything that they want to. They don't get to do anything that they want to because I think that as humans, we should be respectful and conscientious about hurting and harming other people.
[00:26:26] And that isn't just physicality, that's words hurt, words cut. And it's really important to think about that. I, I just think that as humans, maybe I'm even more of a negative Nancy as humans, I think that there is an innate part of us that wants to associate like to like. In order for us to be adaptable, in order for us to think about [00:27:00] how do we affect other people with the behavioral choices that we make, we have to become familiar with who those other people are.
[00:27:09] I can't judge a culture. When I've had zero exposure, I have no right to do that. And I would also argue that some of those inflexible, uh, points of view goes beyond middle America, goes beyond the United States, and I think that we, unfortunately here in the United States right now are demonstrating a lack of tolerance.
[00:27:37] For understanding, appreciating, and valuing what each person in that melting pot actually brings to the world. My hope, as futile as it might be, is that at some point in time people will go, Hey, you know what? This doesn't feel right. This feels wrong. This isn't how we're supposed to be, is [00:28:00] attacking one another's character and and their background and what they believe and who they are fundamentally as a person.
[00:28:07] And I think a lot of that just comes down to meeting people, getting exposure and listening to people.
[00:28:15] Shannon: So you used the example of how the administration potentially wants to bring back, you know, having the Bibles in the school. And I think that if we, without getting too into it, because I'm a Christian, I believe in God, the faith.
[00:28:35] Conversation is probably equivalent to the race conversation in America as we speak of right now. And so again, I said I grew up with Orthodox Jews. I went to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs. I am not Jewish can. I appreciate that they believe in something, but I had this conversation with the HU husband.
[00:28:52] One thing is God gave you free will, so I don't need to force my rate, my religion on you and vice versa. So putting it into the schools. [00:29:00] We're kind of, it's counterproductive to what the actual relationship and faith is. If you're a Christian with God, that's one and two, there's a conversation of the world came to be somehow some way.
[00:29:14] So if you are a atheist or whatever, Christian. Jewish, whatever you, as you affiliate with faith wise, you have to believe in something. You didn't just come and pop up somewhere. You believe in something, science, the universe, whatever. You have a belief in something. And so the issue with this world, because I didn't even wanna say it to United States, is that we have a hard time with someone believing something different, similar to what you just said, Becky, believing something different than somebody else.
[00:29:47] It's not my job. To counter your belief that has nothing to do with my faith walk has nothing to do with me. I think the moment we realized that, because this concept of one nation under God, when we started [00:30:00] America, it was supposed to be God country together. That has never been the, that has never been the case whispering.
[00:30:08] That's never been the case. Well, and even with
[00:30:10] Beki: the United States we're, you know what? Closing in on 250. Sorry, I'm trying to do the math and I still can't do it in my head that fast right now, but we are a blip on the radar screen compared to the other countries around the world. Absolutely, and there is, and this is why I love to travel so much, is because, I mean, you walk into these places and you just feel.
[00:30:37] Awed by everything. Wow. You know, I'm walking on these streets where 800 years ago, the history. Yeah. People were living here doing their living here things. And I've found interest in history as a consequence of that. And you know, it's race, it's religion, it's neurodivergence, it's all of [00:31:00] these things where I can sit up here on my high horse and judge everybody who's not like me.
[00:31:05] And you know, say that I'm better. Well, no one's better. That's not how it works. And I think it's just a recognition that people are different and there's value in that. That's what's interesting, man. If everyone was like me, they would be so annoying all the time.
[00:31:31] Rick: I think when you were talking about your story, you talked about. A traveler specifically and not necessarily a tourist. And I think about my, it's still recent, my recent ish trip to Germany. When I got there, I kind of approached it different than I had done anywhere else I had went. I really wanted to take in the atmosphere and the culture, be really mindful and [00:32:00] see what their day-to-day look like and try to incorporate.
[00:32:03] My day to day into their day to day instead of trying to change or go see some historical things. And I mean, I did that too, did get to go see historical things. But I really just wanted to like, what would my life be like living in this culture? And I think I've said this before, the magical thing about really just trying to engross yourself in a place where they don't speak your language.
[00:32:27] Some, some people don't speak your language and you have to figure out how to communicate and their ways are not your ways, and they do things differently and they have different stores and stuff is named differently. It shows you a lot of different things. Like one, everybody doesn't have to do it the same way and it still works.
[00:32:45] Magic. Groceries still still work. I will say that their food was a lot fresher than ours, but I was in the store and they were actually baking bread while I was that smell good. Um, oh [00:33:00] yeah, I love Brett, but I mean, it just kind of reminds you. Because there's a difference because I feel like so many times as humans, and this is humans everywhere, unlike the other species on the earth, we try to bend the earth to our will.
[00:33:13] Mm. And that's kind of how I think about when you go and you travel in your, in your tourist, you use that word, it's kind of like, oh, what's the tourist spots? What's the place that's gonna cater to my American ways and needs? Instead of that, I was like, Hey, I'm just here. What do you have for me? Let me see what's going on.
[00:33:31] Like, let me be respectful of your culture. Let me, you know, let me learn a couple German words. I knew a little bit of German let me learn some stuff to be able to communicate and you know, being able to go to this place every day where I ordered food and it was two places I went every day. I went to get food at one place and I went to a bakery.
[00:33:49] And the place that I went to get food, he didn't know any English, so I learned enough German words to be able to order my meal. And when I started speaking a little bit of German, [00:34:00] I saw the biggest smile on his face, was like, wow, this dude is trying, like he doesn't speak my language, but he's trying. And on the other end at the bakery, the woman, she spoke a little bit of English and she has such pride being able to speak a little bit of English.
[00:34:13] She's like, you coming in here every day? She is like, I'm gonna be so good at English. So it's kind of cool to be able to, to live that way. To take outside of yourself. 'cause I mean, I think we all have a tendency to be like, the way that I do it is right and this is the only way to do it. I feel like to varying degrees, we all have that.
[00:34:31] I think it's a very human thing, but to be taken outta that, to be put completely somewhere, it's like being dropped in the middle of the ocean. It's like, all right, now what? Gotta figure it out. And so figuring it out was a lot of fun and it just showed me like. Hey, it's a lot of different ways to do this thing, and it doesn't have to be the same.
[00:34:50] Shannon: Yeah. I, Becky, you asked this question and I don't know if we answered it yet, so I'll get really specific. I think the most life [00:35:00] changing experience for me that opened my eyes was my junior year. I had just lost my, I have to do the great greats, right? The great, great, my great-great grandmother. She died when she was 109.
[00:35:14] And then after that, that summer I went, uh, to London for six weeks. Studied abroad. That was probably the most one 'cause I was still mourning and grieving, but also the process of going somewhere, going out of the country. I. I had gone out the country before, but really out of the country without parents by myself for six weeks was the best experience of my life.
[00:35:41] One because I got to see a different side and I think I've talked about this on another episode. Europe is so different. Like in general, how they look at the work life balance. Just walking down the street was felt different. The F richer, the food was different. Even their fast [00:36:00] food was different. Mm-hmm.
[00:36:01] Quality water. Um mm-hmm. And then I took the train to Paris. Now, in all fairness, some people aren't gonna get mad. I hated Paris, but the experience I had there was something I would, I never, ever take back, freshed up my French. 'cause my accent was more Spanish and French when I got there. 'cause I stopped taking French and like middle school.
[00:36:27] So I had none of the accent left. Did the French, did the Eiffel Tower. Had a horrible experience there. You
[00:36:35] Rick: really liked Paris.
[00:36:36] Shannon: Uh, Mulan, but I walked everywhere. So I walked everywhere from like the Louvre to the Notre Dame, to Sean. Like we walked everywhere. I took the train once and just being with the people, we actually made a friend with a stranger.
[00:36:50] Probably not, again, not a safe thing to do. 'cause they took us on a tour of the rest of the city. I could have been kidnapped, but either way. [00:37:00] But we weren't. I just said it was not a smart decision, but it was. She was very sweet, very nice. Ended up taking us to the nightlife, but just seeing right how they lived, I was not a tourist at that time.
[00:37:10] Just seeing how they lived, trying to adapt, trying to speak French, going back to London and it almost felt like home. Like anytime I, that is the one place I wanna go back to again. It really, I really made myself. I immersed myself in that cultural, going to the museums, sitting and having lunch and tea with cream.
[00:37:33] That's all. How, how I drink my tea now, you know, going to the Buckingham Palace. All those things definitely were experience for me, but it really did teach me that there is a world outside of the United States and sometimes I feel like even now, it's frustrating to me because. I feel like the way that our society, meaning the United States is, is structured, is so, it, it puts in the mind, we're like [00:38:00] the only ones.
[00:38:00] There's very against to it that if, if,
[00:38:02] Beki: if we aren't the only ones, everyone should want to be like us instead of us looking around and saying, Hey, we might be able to learn a thing or two as the younger kid on the block.
[00:38:14] Shannon: Yeah, and so going there, it, it allowed me to have a certain level of respect for Europe in general.
[00:38:22] Then coming back just knowing that like everyone doesn't do the same thing. They, their cities look totally different than at the time Philadelphia. I. But that was probably one of the most, like I was the most calm person in London. Got back, not so much, but that, that shifted my understanding of the world because it's one thing to read about it, hear about in the news, but it's another thing to be in the presence, be in the place with where the news happens and then.
[00:38:53] Realize like these are real people. These are real things. America is not the only place, they're not the only people with, we're not the only ones with struggles and [00:39:00] strife. There is racism in Europe. There are things that happen in London that that happen in the United States. It's similar, but I think that it really helped me understand the differences.
[00:39:10] But the being understanding of the differe differences, what do you think
[00:39:12] Beki: changed for you if that sense, as a result of that trip
[00:39:15] Shannon: sense, I became more, uh, eager to learn. More at that time, like I, I was really proponent of black history, so I was taking a lot of like black history courses, uh, black, um, black mass media to learn about kind of how that was built.
[00:39:31] But that trip or that experience made me mm-hmm. Want to know things internationally, the history of the world, and not just me, my black experience, but also not just like the American story that is so, we're so focused on, I wanna know about. All the stories of the world. And so that was like the shift of I'm not gonna be this arrogant American that thinks that we are the best [00:40:00] and we are the one, because I know that there's a whole entire world that's not, and they might think the same thing of themselves, but
[00:40:07] Rick: I wonder if that experience is different if you're not a minority.
[00:40:12] And coming from America, I wonder if like being a minority, coming from America, knowing how we're treated here, going there. And that makes you look at it a little bit differently because it's, we can't say like, oh, this everything's great here because we know how we get treated here. We know how people who look like us get treated here.
[00:40:31] So going somewhere else is like a little bit different. And I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on going to a country that speaks the same language as you. I mean, they're English. They have English. English, and we have English. English. English is a little bit different than English. Yeah. But I will say, like you telling that story made me think about going just to Canada.
[00:40:54] Like going to Canada. They speak, they speak pretty much the same language, [00:41:00] like not with the, the differences that they do in the UK and. When I go there, I feel like peaceful in, in ways that I don't. In America it is just different. And you think I, I'm in Michigan, so I'm really close to Canada, so just going over there.
[00:41:17] It is funny how I. Some things seem very similar, but it's very different at the same time. So I'm wondering what your experience was over there because you're actually overseas and it's not just like me crossing over into Canada saying, what's up? Oh,
[00:41:31] Shannon: I love I London is a melting pot, but it was interesting.
[00:41:36] London reminds me of New York ish in which you hated in regards to Got
[00:41:41] Beki: it.
[00:41:42] Shannon: But for different reasons. For different reasons. New York, I wanted a melting pot. I wanted diversity. So London, to me, there is a lot of different races, cultures there. So for me it was like a surprise because when you see London, I mean now [00:42:00] you got a lot of shows and stuff that shows the, but not back then, university of London.
[00:42:04] But when I was, but not back then. So to me I was very like pleasantly surprised, like I got. Um, really, really keen on Indian food. When I was there. It was the best. It was so good. So I used to get Samoas all the time. All the time.
[00:42:19] Rick: Yeah. Angles, dialect coming out. Yeah. You got really keen. See it just bleeds out accidentally.
[00:42:27] Shannon: Um, I don't know if it was different. I mean, I went with a group of, they, it was all races that went, 'cause it was I think 20 of us for the study abroad. Maybe less than that, but we all had different experience. But I was out of the 20, there was three black people and the rest were either white or probably white.
[00:42:50] I don't think there was any other race there. I didn't wanna be. Yes. So in general, but I never, I can say that I never felt [00:43:00] how I felt, how I feel in America in some instances. I never felt that. Ironically,
[00:43:05] Beki: what's interesting to me, ironically about that. And about your question, Richard, is that as a white woman from the United States going over to Europe in particular, I.
[00:43:17] I, uh, I think I actually felt more like an outsider there because there were such assumptions about who I was, how I would conduct myself, and I don't know if I should take this as a good thing or a bad thing, but people would confuse us with a Canadian all the time, which. In some ways I think I like, except for,
[00:43:44] Rick: except I think I would like that right now.
[00:43:45] Yeah.
[00:43:46] Beki: Sorry, Canada, but we're not being nice. Sorry, Mexico not being nice. Um, sorry. The world maybe. Um, but I, I think it's one of the things, so even when I was in Argentina, [00:44:00] one of the things that people would say to me all the time is, oh no, people can pick you out as an American. And I was like, okay. But other people have blonde hair.
[00:44:09] And okay. Blue eyes wasn't so common, but the blonde hair definitely was. And they said, oh no, no, the you, you stand out. And I don't know if it's the way I dressed, the way I walked, all of the things that would come into play there. But they know you before you open your mouth. And there are assumptions.
[00:44:34] Yes. Not by everyone. But there are reasonable assumptions based on data collected about who I am as a human being when they know that I'm an American. And so for me, obviously in the United States, I don't get that. I get assumptions made about me as a woman here, and I really love it when they underestimate me.
[00:44:59] When I [00:45:00] travel, I, I'm not so in love with the idea that I am underestimated or I am put into a bucket because that bucket doesn't usually represent who I am. I might get a little loud every once in a while, gimme a couple cocktails. I can get a little loud. So there's that, but I just really want. To be seen as me in those moments, and that's the only kind of indication when that doesn't really happen for me is when I travel internationally.
[00:45:37] Shannon: That is true, and that's a carte blanche. I don't know what vibe Americans give, but they extremely could. I don't know if it's just the way we walk, the way we carry ourselves. But they always knew I was American and any, any way, shape or form, even when I go to Canada, but I go to Montreal, which is like, oh, love Montreal more French.
[00:45:56] So I, again, French gotta practice it, but [00:46:00] um, they do know that I am American even though I do make efforts to, again, make myself flexible to the environment that I'm in. I will say going to London, even when in Canada. The only time I did feel some type of way is if I talked to some, we met some, what am I, I don't wanna say neighborhood, but like people that were from there that, that were our age.
[00:46:23] And this is why, again, why I came back and I really wanted to know internationally, there is a ignorance to Americans that is not like the age group of what. We were compared to what they are in regards to knowledge of the world, historical information was totally different. And so there was, again, I think this arrogance of thinking that America's so great, but these kids were like.
[00:46:45] It's like, what, what about the history? They know more about history than I'm like, I, when do you learn this? At what age? So that was probably, again, the only difference was it was like the, the intelligence level and the knowledge of [00:47:00] history in regards to like their lives and the country and the world.
[00:47:05] Was to like far beyond anything that I've ever experienced.
[00:47:08] Rick: See, that's crazy because I never even considered going back to the, being singled out as being American. I never even considered that and I, I'm glad you brought that up, Becky, because when I was in Germany and when I go to Canada and Toronto, like specifically like Toronto, where it's melting pots, I feel.
[00:47:28] I never feel like everybo anybody's ever able to call me out on like, Hey, you're American. I don't know if it's my locks in the way that I fit into the culture or the way I walk or talk or whatever, but I've never, I never really have gotten those assumptions when I'm out of the country that I'm American and a lot I can, I think thinking like Toronto specifically, there's so many people from so many different places that it's like I kind of fit in.
[00:47:51] Like I, I have, like when I travel, I usually have a book bag on. And everybody there is carrying a book bag and you have your headphones on you going, going about your [00:48:00] business. Uh, so I don't, I don't know. I never, never really considered being singled out as a American and it's kind of, I. It's kind of interesting to me that it's like, that could almost be like a negative because so many assumptions.
[00:48:12] It's like for, for you, like that's almost like being a minority in America. It's like going, going to like Europe and I'm like, oh, you're American. Like I know how you are.
[00:48:22] Beki: Well, and I am in, in fairness, I, I am a minority when I am outside of the United States. States and you know, and in some cases, kind of like the experience Shannon was talking about, people come up and they're, they're really helpful.
[00:48:36] They're, they kind of assume you don't know where you are, you don't know where you're going, and they're there to help you with those kinds of things. Other times they'll give you directions in the wrong direction depending on which country you're in, and they might just mm-hmm. Send you a field. But I, I think that there are pros and cons to that.
[00:48:52] The, the thing that I keep on coming back to. Is for, for so many they don't have an [00:49:00] opportunity or a desire to travel. And yet there's still, even within the United States, an opportunity to learn about different people, learn about what they care about and how they care about, and I sometimes wonder about what can I say to people who have not had that experience to help them at least know why it matters to me.
[00:49:25] And I think about all of the different experiences. So when I went to college, when I was working for that job, when I started traveling, when I spent six months in Argentina, just sort of the way I live my life, being curious about why do you think that? What, what, what made you choose that? And it's not from a judgey place all the time, it's also from that place of, I just kind of wanna know how your brain works.
[00:49:51] To me, that's hugely interesting, but it also adds a whole lot of value to my life because [00:50:00] when I'm stuck in something, I start flipping through my memories of how other people have talked about what they've done, and it might actually generate a different idea so that I'm not so stuck. Anymore. To me that's really valuable that I have an understanding of how other people think and behave and what their priorities are so that it's actually kind of a database of ideas.
[00:50:26] If I could be truly selfish about it, and I think that's valuable, and I wish more people had that. I sincerely wish that more people had that because I think they'd see so much more value. And understanding people who aren't exactly like them.
[00:50:44] Shannon: Yeah. Uh, I agree. I think now I'm like, there's a full fledged moment.
[00:50:48] I'm not gonna cry on this podcast, but there is a gratefulness from my upbringing because it was always instilled to travel. And there was one point my cousin lived with [00:51:00] us, she traveled abroad to Russia. We had a foreign exchange student. My older sister had someone come and they were from Spain and my sister went to Spain.
[00:51:08] So they had like a, I didn't, they didn't do it at my school, but they had an exchange program where she came one summer. Then the other summer my sister went there. So there was always a foundation of, I want you to experience this world. I think if we, not, not the America, but this world. So shout out to my parents for doing that.
[00:51:30] 'cause it's, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, wow. Like. I don't know if I would've had the same mindset to leave and travel and go to school out of the state that I lived in, or have the aspirations to travel the world had it not been for that foundation set. But I think it's really important that we start to, you ask like, how do you kind of share.
[00:51:53] Like that, the value of it. I think the value of it comes from experiences, like how do we, we connect through [00:52:00] experiences and the more experiences you have, the more connections you can have, the more lessons you learn. And so I think if you travel, if you do study abroad, if you go to school outside of your state, you push yourself out of the comfort zone that you live in.
[00:52:12] Your life will be fuller of experiences that can teach you different things. And so I think that's a way to share that. And anybody that. Is isn't around me. My younger cousin, I said travel, I. Get to know the world. It is your oyster, literally. And the more experiences you gain, the more well versed you are.
[00:52:33] If someone stays in the same place with the same people their entire lives, their experiences are limited, their knowledge of other things, cultures, races, religion is limited to what their experiences are. So if you expand your experiences, you'll be a better person and you'll be more connected to people all across the world, not just in your.
[00:52:53] Radius.
[00:52:55] Rick: I think for me, whenever you see people in media, [00:53:00] characters on television and movies of different races, usually what they, what writers do, they'll take some of the most common traits and exaggerate 'em. So when you meet someone of that race, if you never have, you're going off of those exaggerated commonalities that you try to put into a character.
[00:53:22] The more you learn and the more experiences you have, the smarter you are and the more knowledge that you have. So just being able to travel and see how other people do it, and it just opens up ways of thinking that you never thought possible. And that's something that I experienced in Germany. That's something that I experience every time I go to Canada.
[00:53:43] It's just being able to see the way that other people live and the other, the way that other people carry their lives. And get to know more people so you have a bigger sample size of people that aren't like you, that are still good people, and you're able to draw that in and say like, oh, [00:54:00] everybody's not the same.
[00:54:00] But that's not bad. And I think when you're isolated with people that look and act and think exactly like you do, it can be very limiting in a sense, because you never get those challenging mindsets. You think that A the wake, because everybody I'm around does it this way. This is the only way to do it and this is the right way to do it and it's the best way to do it.
[00:54:25] But once you experience other people and they experience you, and you have the chance to go back and forth, what is the iron sharpens iron. You get sharper. You get to learn things, you get to pull things from other cultures, you get to pull things from other people. And I don't think it's anything more valuable than that.
[00:54:41] And I think that is why it's kind of really disheartening for me. When you see that some of the books and things that are being banned and limited in schools now that show other points of view and show other different types of people that everybody's not accustomed to being [00:55:00] around. I mean, because like if you, it's scary to see something on tv, oh, that's not like me.
[00:55:05] It goes against what I believe. And then you meet a person and then you find out, oh, they are belong to that group. It opens up your eyes and it's like, oh, they're are humans. So we as humans sometimes. I know in America, and I've seen it other places too, but we, we have a tendency where we can like dehumanize groups of people and I think that is a very dangerous thing to do.
[00:55:27] And I think it's important to remember that, hey, they don't look like you, but they're still humans just like you. And unless you're around it, you really don't get the benefit of really learning it.
[00:55:38] Beki: What I think is so interesting about what we've been talking about today is just, I mean, you said there, Richard, this idea of, you know, they're inflated characteristics and they're put into a character and that's exactly what we do.
[00:55:54] We characterize people. In bundles [00:56:00] and I think about, you know, for people who don't have means or don't have the desire to, to leave the United States to go learn these things, you don't actually have to go very far. I. Right. I, I bet there's someone with a different sexual orientation. I'm guessing that there's someone who is neurodivergent, who's not that far from you geographically.
[00:56:24] Certainly someone of a different race where I grew up, it was absolutely a farming community, but we were not that far from a city center where, I mean, it could be as simple as experiencing the food of a different culture and maybe, I don't know, talking to people. About the food and the origins of the food.
[00:56:45] It doesn't have to be, I'm doing a world tour, which does sound amazing to me, but not to everyone. And so you can learn about things right now. One of the big things that [00:57:00] I hear all the time is, well, it's hard to know what's true. This group says this, this group says this, and everyone is lying. I don't know what's true.
[00:57:11] I think one of the ways that we could find out what's true is to go ask the people who are behind the assumptions, learn a little bit something about those things that you're uncertain about, and you'll start to form your own opinion and you don't have to use someone else's. To me, that's the biggest value of H cultural diversity as an asset in your toolkit.
[00:57:37] But that's just maybe me or us.
[00:57:40] Shannon: Yeah. Well said. Mic drop.
[00:57:45] Beki: Thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember, the world looks different through every lens. Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us.
[00:57:58] Your voice helps us grow [00:58:00] and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Becky and on behalf of myself, Richard and Shannon, thanks for listening. Until next time.
[00:58:07] I.
[00:00:22] The familiarity of the origins will stay with me always. Then I went to university and was exposed to different people and different views. Then this position opened me up to others in the world. I was a project coordinator working with a variety of contractors. We were working on projects associated with the university, U-S-A-I-D, the World Bank, and.
[00:00:46] Other impactful organizations, the projects covered the world. I would hear stories from the woman who worked in countries of South and Central America. Another guy returned from Niger with gifts [00:01:00] for everyone, and I still have that boutique wall hanging, hanging in my house. Decades later. My projects, I was more deeply exposed to cultures in Central Asia, Russia, and Central Europe.
[00:01:13] The work was focused on how to privatize property in former socialist and communist countries. The history, the socioeconomics, and the cultural differences were fascinating. And new to me. I didn't work there long, but it changed me much later. My husband and I took our first international trip together to Norway.
[00:01:34] I realized that as a traveler instead of a tourist, I had the opportunity to have that feeling of discovery all over again. We were hooked and travel has been a priority for us ever since. Not everyone can or wants to travel like I do. That's where I am now, but that's not where it started. Welcome to unlearning the World through the [00:02:00] Looking Glass, where we explore the moments, learnings, and experiences that changed how we saw the world forever.
[00:02:06] I'm Becky and I'm joined by Shannon and Richard. I. In this episode, we'll share our personal experiences with creating new human connections, the lessons it taught us, and how we relate to it today. Let's get started. Hi everyone.
[00:02:21] Rick: Hey Becky.
[00:02:23] Shannon: Hey.
[00:02:24] Beki: I'm curious about what resonates with you guys about, you know, when you got to meet people who were not like you and it kind of expanded your world a little bit.
[00:02:36] Shannon: I would say I feel like my entire life has been an encompassing experience of different cultures. I don't know if it was fortunate or unfortunately I moved around, so when I was younger, I went to an all Catholic school. I am not Catholic, but I was introduced to the faith from pre-K all the way up to fourth grade.
[00:02:58] And then I moved [00:03:00] to, I wanna say a predominantly white neighborhood, but also a predominantly Orthodox Jewish neighborhood. So I went to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs because that was my middle school experience. So I was always ingrained in other cultures, other faiths. And then in, in high school, I went to a more diverse, where there was white, black.
[00:03:25] Spanish, et cetera. Learned more frequently. Spanish from a conversational, uh, perspective from friends and then college. Same thing. So I think since I was younger, I've always understood connection through getting to know the differences versus being similar because I was never in a atmosphere where I felt like I was.
[00:03:50] In the same room was everyone that was the same as me. It was always the opposite. So I always had to kind of connect in a way and learn others beliefs, faith, [00:04:00] culture, et cetera. And I always, I feel like that made me a more diverse, well-grounded understanding, being able to connect with people from childhood, if
[00:04:11] Rick: that makes sense.
[00:04:12] It's interesting that you talked about not always being the predominant. Yeah, it's something that I used to think about all the time. Like you go into a room and you would kind of count to see like how many other black people are there.
[00:04:27] Shannon: Yeah.
[00:04:28] Rick: I remember talking to someone about this who wasn't black, and he talked about how one of his friends that was black said a similar thing, and he really didn't understand what that meant until one day he found himself in a place where he was the minority, and then he recognized, oh.
[00:04:47] There's nobody that looks like me in a room. Now I kind of understand why my black friend would count and see how many other black people were in a room because it's not something that everybody has to face. But it's definitely like when it's a [00:05:00] normal thing, you kind of look around and you notice each other really quickly.
[00:05:03] I heard people talk about the head nod that black people give each other, and even when I went to Germany, like when I saw the black people, it's like universal. It's even over there. You kind of look at each other. You make eye contact. You don't say anything. You just do the head nod or uh, Hey, how's it going?
[00:05:19] Something like that, just because you're looking for something that looks like you. I was fortunate enough to grow up in a place. And be put in situations where I was around all different types of races, religions, and people, and it is that has really give me a good taste of the world. I do remember one time where I heard a Indian accent for the first time.
[00:05:44] It was not my proudest moment. I was very young. And I heard someone speaking and like we kind of all laughed, but since I am a loud mouth, since a kid, mine rung out the hardest and I got rebuked by my teacher and [00:06:00] it kind of made me pause and stop for a minute, but kind of realizing that I didn't mean any offense by it.
[00:06:05] It's just the first time I heard it like it was so new to me like that that was before like. You would see diversity on television. There was no diversity. You didn't see that kind of stuff in cartoons and television shows really like that much back then. So it, it kind of opened my eyes to it. So, but it's been so many different times where I've had that experience and I think it's a little bit different.
[00:06:28] Like as a minority, it kind of tunes me in a little bit more. I think one of the biggest surprises that I had, and it wasn't even me, but it was talking to someone and I was interviewing someone and he said that he had never been around white people until he went to college, and that was the opposite experience of what I had experienced because I met a lot of people when I went to university that said, oh, you the first black person I've ever met in person.
[00:06:54] He was like, I had never met a white person in person. And I was like, wow, that's crazy. I guess it, I guess that does happen [00:07:00] both ways.
[00:07:00] Beki: Yeah. Well, and that was relatively true for me as well. I. Where when I was growing up grade school, I mean, I was part of a farming community and everyone looked like me, you know, blue eyed blonde hair.
[00:07:18] I mean, it was strange if someone had brown hair and brown eyes, much less, you know, being a, any other kind of race or any kind of nationality. I did go to school with a guy who was. Uh, Korean, born and adopted, and I think about him a lot now actually, because I wonder what his experience was in reality. I would imagine it was much tougher than I ever could have understood at that point in time.
[00:07:51] And if I could talk to him now, I'd be really curious about, you know, how has his life changed, you know, since we graduated [00:08:00] because. I hope that he has found sort of that understanding and that connection to his origins in any way that he would want to. For me, it was when I went to university that I met so many different people who didn't come from my background, didn't look like me, and I got really curious about that, and I wanted to spend time.
[00:08:26] Around people who weren't like me, because I knew I didn't fit in with the people who did look like me. I felt like I, and it's not that I didn't like them or didn't respect them, it's just I wanted things that they didn't care about and they wanted things that I didn't care about. So it was a recognition that I needed to find other people who shared.
[00:08:52] My interests and my goals so that I could kind of grow next to them. And I think about some [00:09:00] of the relationships that I had. I mean, the company that I was talking about in my introduction there, that was where I worked, not exactly right before I went to Yale, but. A little bit before then, and my boss at that time was still a friend of mine right before I left, and he was so influential because he said, Becky, you are going to meet all these different kinds of people when you go into that school.
[00:09:28] Do not work. I. I know that you're paying for it. I know you don't have the money, but don't work because those relationships are going to be incredible and meaningful to you going forward. So don't miss out. So I'm kind of wondering, I mean, you had a different experience and a different focus, but what were some of the relationships that you had that.
[00:09:52] Really were those big moments of, Hey, I should tune into this thing about how people are the same and how [00:10:00] people are different.
[00:10:01] Shannon: I don't know if I have the answer to that in in the grand scheme of things, because if I reflect on my life, like I said, I feel like, I don't know if it was intentional through my parents, but.
[00:10:14] I was always exposed to different cultures and being my, being my own. So when I got to the point of high school and I went on college tours, I went and visited a lot of historically black colleges. My mom was adamant that I left the state of Connecticut to expose myself to different environments, to different places.
[00:10:33] Being in the city, you know, she encouraged that. So I was very much. It was planned for me to go out outside of the state, right? And so I left the state and I had to, I wanted to go to a city. I really thought I wanted to go to New York. I wanted to be in a melting pot. I did not. I did not like New York, sorry to anybody that lives there.
[00:10:57] And I landed in Philly and it was the [00:11:00] best decision. Shout out to Temple University. That was the best decision I've ever made It, it exposed me. Again, diver diversity was consistent. I can't say through high school to adulthood. There was diverse cultures, religions, races, like there was never. I never felt like what I did in grade school, in middle, middle school.
[00:11:23] I never was counting the faces. At one point I thought Temple was a historically black college based off of the ratio at the time. At the time. Okay. So that's hilarious. When I went, it was a lot of black people, a few people that looked like me, not saying I, I think we were, if not 50% close to that at the time that I went there.
[00:11:45] So. That always drew to me. I wanted to to be seen and acknowledged in a place where I didn't feel alone and ostracized, but I also wanted to embrace different cultures, and so that was always in me. I don't know where it came [00:12:00] from. I don't know where it started. I don't know if it's because I was always in an array and at one point I was the odd one, and then I kind of mixed, mixed in as I got, got older.
[00:12:10] But diversity was always a big, I wanted to be around different cultures. And let's talk about this. So there are black people, but there are also African Americans, like people that have information on where they started, right? So if you go into the Caribbean culture, so I even learned that like I am black, African American, if you wanna say so, because I'm assuming my slaves came over.
[00:12:33] But I don't have recog, I don't have knowledge of that. If I talk to somebody that's has family in Ghana and can go back and know their lineage, that was a totally different experience for me and I didn't learn that until college. And the nuances of within the black community, how it's really important to have that foundation.
[00:12:52] I don't, but I respected those individuals that have that. Knowledge of their lineage and where they come from and their [00:13:00] ancestry. That's not something that I personally able to experience. So that's one thing I did that was like life changing in regards to understanding, um, relationships beyond just like my personal experience in the world.
[00:13:13] Beki: How interested would you be in finding that out?
[00:13:16] Shannon: Oh, my husband did. Did it? I haven't. I have a good idea, but. I'm not against it. It's just at the time, like I think it was like very sketchy. My mom's looking into stuff. I can go back two or three generations, but they all start here.
[00:13:31] Beki: Okay,
[00:13:32] Shannon: so I have no idea beyond that.
[00:13:36] So assumption is Africa. 'cause everyone came from there. If they, if we're all taught the same. Right. But I don't have that information. If, if the history books are accurate, that's yes. You know, depending on what history you wanna, you wanna refer to Indeed. But yes, that, yeah. I mean
[00:13:50] Rick: if you think about history, science, or religion, pretty much they all say the same thing.
[00:13:56] Right? That we are one race. The
[00:13:59] Shannon: [00:14:00] human
[00:14:00] Rick: race.
[00:14:00] Shannon: I, that's why I was like, I don't, whatever you, whatever, whatever people wanna refer to is totally fine, but that's, Africa is the one. But hey.
[00:14:09] Rick: Yeah. You know, for me as a minority growing up, and it could just be me and Shannon, so you could tell me if your experience is kind of different, it's almost like you're taught, maybe not even taught directly.
[00:14:20] There's nothing that anybody actually came on and tells you, but you're always adjusting to a culture that's not yours.
[00:14:28] Shannon: Hmm.
[00:14:29] Rick: So when you're looking at people, it's a little bit, Shannon's not in her head, so it must be her experience too. When you're looking at people, you're kind of always adjusting to the people around you.
[00:14:39] One thing that when I really learned about psychology in the way that our mind works, I really wanted to be intentional about not judging a book by its cover, because I kind of say this all the time, that as soon as my mom had to talk with me about being black. I became, I started studying marketing [00:15:00] at that moment because I wanted to make sure the image that I gave matched the image that was inside of me, because people say, don't judge a book by its cover, but most people don't take the time to read.
[00:15:11] So I always wanted to make sure that my cover matched what was inside of me. So if that's what I want to be treated like, and then I'm Christian too. So that kind of plays a role into it. So it says, don't judge a bookwise cover. Treat people how you want to be treated. I always resisted the urge to automatically put people into one group just because I didn't want people to put me into one group.
[00:15:36] So I always tried when I met someone, I wanted to meet them as an individual first before you started expanding out. Because each person is a part of multiple, I don't know if culture is the word, but culture, for lack of a better word, we're all part of different things because. A black male from the south is gonna be different from, uh, a black [00:16:00] atheist male in, in the North or New York, or you think about even, I feel like I bring rap in a lot of stuff.
[00:16:11] You think about Drake and j Cole, they're both mixed individuals. A part of the black race, Drake grew up in Toronto. J Cole grew up in North Carolina. They, they, so you look at them and they're like, oh, they're both mixed. So they must have similar experiences. No, the regions made them different. Their experiences, who they grew up with made them different.
[00:16:34] The areas that they grew up with made them different. So, so many different things. You could just put them together as, oh, they're mixed. And they rap and think that that's the same. They're gonna rap about the same thing, think about the same thing. But that's not the case.
[00:16:47] Beki: No.
[00:16:48] Shannon: Yeah, I, I would agree. I think you said it more eloquently than me.
[00:16:53] I think that being black. Whether it's a inherited [00:17:00] gene, I don't know, but it always has. I don't know where it came from. Again, maybe it was learned or not, but it's always positioned me to be able to assimilate in some ways, shape or form. So I've always been the individual, 'cause I don't even wanna put it, I don't, I really don't wanna put about race, but.
[00:17:20] In general, because sometimes you are the minority in the case, especially, and I'm also a woman, I have learned to be open to the environment in which I am in and the, you know, speaking about just making, even making assumptions. You know that saying that. Don't assume it makes a, that thing outta you and me.
[00:17:44] Yeah, there you go.
[00:17:48] The black or African diaspora is very wide. Very large. And so the assumptions north south, like you're gonna talk about rap. Let's break it down even more. There's East Coast, there's [00:18:00] west coast, there's down south rap, there's, you know, new, uh, New York has its own. But again, you can't make assumptions just based off of a skin tone.
[00:18:11] You can't make assumptions. I was exposed to a myriad of different religions going into college that I was unbeknownst to me. So I think for me. I've always been in a position of openness because I was forced to. I guess that's the, that's the way. I don't think I have the luxury to be in a space where I can be so closed off to not be open to other people's experiences, cultures, race, ways of life.
[00:18:40] That just has not been my experience on this planet. Yeah. As of yet.
[00:18:45] Beki: Well, and I think it's that nature versus nurture piece of things that I'm, I'm kind of hearing in that and certainly. You know, even as a white person looking at these things, I mean, it's like even within my [00:19:00] heritage going back, part of my heritage is Scandinavian and even that split between Norwegian and Swedish, and it's so ridiculous in my mind.
[00:19:15] But there was a point in history. Within my grandfather's lifetime where if a Swede and a Norwegian were married and one died, that the other one wasn't allowed into the cemetery, like seriously, like how ridiculous is that? Y'all are almost twins by appearance in some of those cases. Not all to be fair, but when you're so similar in culture and region and all of those things, and yet.
[00:19:46] There's just this bitterness between groups. I just think about how as humans, sometimes if you don't look exactly like me, if you are not part of my specified group, [00:20:00] and I mean this is, this is nature because it was how we protected ourselves. If you look a little different. And really, if you look a whole lot different, then you might be a threat and I need to evaluate that.
[00:20:13] And I don't think that in our times now, we need to worry so much about that. But certainly that's the way our bodies are geared is that becomes a threat and we have to do the fight flight phenomenon. I think that there's a, a whole piece to that where I now walk into relationships. Recognizing that if I've made up a story about who that person is based on, like Richard said, you know, the books cover, I have set myself up to fail.
[00:20:45] How many times have I had conversations with people by phone or even by video, and then I meet them in person and I'm like. Okay, so that's not really what I expected. I mean, even the first time I met Richard, he was [00:21:00] not the same height that I had in my head. Right? Like, I'm like, okay, like, and it was fine.
[00:21:06] Thought, fine. Probably thought I was short. Well, yeah, you are not short my friend. So there's that, and I am, so it is something that stands out for me, but. I think that we do, we make assumptions and we have to really have a little bit of empathy to understand, hey, you know what, maybe this person has had an experience, and then the curiosity to, to understand that.
[00:21:30] But then to me it's really about listening to who they are instead of filling in the gaps and making the assumptions about it.
[00:21:38] Rick: I think as I got older, that thought has crossed my mind before where like, knowing that. You don't necessarily have to assimilate, but you have to be adaptable to fit into different situations.
[00:21:50] Yeah. The thing that kind of makes me, I don't wanna say angry because I don't want to be angry. The thing that kind of disappoints me as a [00:22:00] society is that, you know, growing up I thought that was really the norm is like, all right, we're not gonna judge a book by its cover. We're, we're, everybody's gonna learn that everybody's individuals, and that's not the case.
[00:22:13] And I feel like it's so sad that as a minority, that we're always expected to assimilate to one particular thing. I mean, we have a whole administration and a whole group of people right now in America that's trying to make everything a specific way with no flexibility. Everybody needs to be this, it needs to be Bibles in school.
[00:22:35] As a Christian, I don't, I don't agree with that. I don't feel like you need to force your religion on, on people. And it's like, so I agree like Christianity is good, but I disagree that you need to force it on everybody in the schools. So even in that, it's like why do we all have to adjust to what you think is right?
[00:22:54] Why can't we find. A place. And that's where I was hoping that we were going. And [00:23:00] that's probably why I've been so sad this year. I really hope that we're moving towards a place where hey America is, is supposed to be this great melting pot full of diversity. People of all nations have, have gathered here.
[00:23:12] You know, we had a, a tragic past, but we're moving past the racism and the bigotry and all of the things that define our history. In the beginning, and we're all coming together in America special because we're made up of so many different people and now it's kind of like, oh, let's backtrack that. Yeah, I agree.
[00:23:31] And it's like one of the saddest things ever.
[00:23:34] Shannon: See, I I, I am, I don't know what to call myself if I'm a negative Nancy or whatever. That was never my. Visual of what the world was coming to. And I'll say that 'cause we'll go back to this, right? The, the as the assimilate assimilating or being flexible or adaptable in nature, you have to understand if you're coming from that perspective, which is [00:24:00] why I said I don't know if that's a blessing or a curse.
[00:24:02] To be black American, have that adaptability. But if you know that a chunk of the world is not exposed or has that flexibility within them, and they weren't, it's not ingrained in them, they didn't learn it. How is that foundation gonna grow and spread in the world? 'cause you have a whole group of people that have not been forced.
[00:24:25] Middle America, possibly maybe, who are not forced to be exposed or adaptable to anything other than their beliefs. What's familiar to them. And so when you're placed in a, in a situation where that's always a constant, somewhere, someplace, then you have children that are growing up in it. Then you have them turning into adults.
[00:24:46] Then you have them being elected officials and the cycle hasn't stopped. Yes, there are more people that are being educated and and exposed to different cultures, different opinions, but there is still. A big [00:25:00] foundation where that generationally is like, no, you don't have to do that. Your way is the right way.
[00:25:05] No one sees different, there's no different opinions, there's no different races. We're the top race. So to me, I don't know if that's negative of me to say, because again, it could be a blessing or a curse that. As a African American woman, I have always had to be flexible, adapt agile in every single environment I am, but I am realistic to know that not everybody has to do that, and not everybody is going to do that in their life.
[00:25:30] Maybe they'll be forced in their adulthood, but at that point, yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a rough transition that's almost
[00:25:35] Beki: sink and swim in terms of making that change. And I think what I agree with in, in terms of what Richard had said was. That I'm disappointed in where we are. I also agree with you, Shannon, that the adaptability, this idea and, and all, I'll say it this way, when freedom is.
[00:25:59] Everyone [00:26:00] has to agree with me. I don't, I don't agree with the definition of freedom. To me, freedom means that people have an opportunity to coexist, believing anything that they want to. They don't get to do anything that they want to because I think that as humans, we should be respectful and conscientious about hurting and harming other people.
[00:26:26] And that isn't just physicality, that's words hurt, words cut. And it's really important to think about that. I, I just think that as humans, maybe I'm even more of a negative Nancy as humans, I think that there is an innate part of us that wants to associate like to like. In order for us to be adaptable, in order for us to think about [00:27:00] how do we affect other people with the behavioral choices that we make, we have to become familiar with who those other people are.
[00:27:09] I can't judge a culture. When I've had zero exposure, I have no right to do that. And I would also argue that some of those inflexible, uh, points of view goes beyond middle America, goes beyond the United States, and I think that we, unfortunately here in the United States right now are demonstrating a lack of tolerance.
[00:27:37] For understanding, appreciating, and valuing what each person in that melting pot actually brings to the world. My hope, as futile as it might be, is that at some point in time people will go, Hey, you know what? This doesn't feel right. This feels wrong. This isn't how we're supposed to be, is [00:28:00] attacking one another's character and and their background and what they believe and who they are fundamentally as a person.
[00:28:07] And I think a lot of that just comes down to meeting people, getting exposure and listening to people.
[00:28:15] Shannon: So you used the example of how the administration potentially wants to bring back, you know, having the Bibles in the school. And I think that if we, without getting too into it, because I'm a Christian, I believe in God, the faith.
[00:28:35] Conversation is probably equivalent to the race conversation in America as we speak of right now. And so again, I said I grew up with Orthodox Jews. I went to a lot of bar and bat mitzvahs. I am not Jewish can. I appreciate that they believe in something, but I had this conversation with the HU husband.
[00:28:52] One thing is God gave you free will, so I don't need to force my rate, my religion on you and vice versa. So putting it into the schools. [00:29:00] We're kind of, it's counterproductive to what the actual relationship and faith is. If you're a Christian with God, that's one and two, there's a conversation of the world came to be somehow some way.
[00:29:14] So if you are a atheist or whatever, Christian. Jewish, whatever you, as you affiliate with faith wise, you have to believe in something. You didn't just come and pop up somewhere. You believe in something, science, the universe, whatever. You have a belief in something. And so the issue with this world, because I didn't even wanna say it to United States, is that we have a hard time with someone believing something different, similar to what you just said, Becky, believing something different than somebody else.
[00:29:47] It's not my job. To counter your belief that has nothing to do with my faith walk has nothing to do with me. I think the moment we realized that, because this concept of one nation under God, when we started [00:30:00] America, it was supposed to be God country together. That has never been the, that has never been the case whispering.
[00:30:08] That's never been the case. Well, and even with
[00:30:10] Beki: the United States we're, you know what? Closing in on 250. Sorry, I'm trying to do the math and I still can't do it in my head that fast right now, but we are a blip on the radar screen compared to the other countries around the world. Absolutely, and there is, and this is why I love to travel so much, is because, I mean, you walk into these places and you just feel.
[00:30:37] Awed by everything. Wow. You know, I'm walking on these streets where 800 years ago, the history. Yeah. People were living here doing their living here things. And I've found interest in history as a consequence of that. And you know, it's race, it's religion, it's neurodivergence, it's all of [00:31:00] these things where I can sit up here on my high horse and judge everybody who's not like me.
[00:31:05] And you know, say that I'm better. Well, no one's better. That's not how it works. And I think it's just a recognition that people are different and there's value in that. That's what's interesting, man. If everyone was like me, they would be so annoying all the time.
[00:31:31] Rick: I think when you were talking about your story, you talked about. A traveler specifically and not necessarily a tourist. And I think about my, it's still recent, my recent ish trip to Germany. When I got there, I kind of approached it different than I had done anywhere else I had went. I really wanted to take in the atmosphere and the culture, be really mindful and [00:32:00] see what their day-to-day look like and try to incorporate.
[00:32:03] My day to day into their day to day instead of trying to change or go see some historical things. And I mean, I did that too, did get to go see historical things. But I really just wanted to like, what would my life be like living in this culture? And I think I've said this before, the magical thing about really just trying to engross yourself in a place where they don't speak your language.
[00:32:27] Some, some people don't speak your language and you have to figure out how to communicate and their ways are not your ways, and they do things differently and they have different stores and stuff is named differently. It shows you a lot of different things. Like one, everybody doesn't have to do it the same way and it still works.
[00:32:45] Magic. Groceries still still work. I will say that their food was a lot fresher than ours, but I was in the store and they were actually baking bread while I was that smell good. Um, oh [00:33:00] yeah, I love Brett, but I mean, it just kind of reminds you. Because there's a difference because I feel like so many times as humans, and this is humans everywhere, unlike the other species on the earth, we try to bend the earth to our will.
[00:33:13] Mm. And that's kind of how I think about when you go and you travel in your, in your tourist, you use that word, it's kind of like, oh, what's the tourist spots? What's the place that's gonna cater to my American ways and needs? Instead of that, I was like, Hey, I'm just here. What do you have for me? Let me see what's going on.
[00:33:31] Like, let me be respectful of your culture. Let me, you know, let me learn a couple German words. I knew a little bit of German let me learn some stuff to be able to communicate and you know, being able to go to this place every day where I ordered food and it was two places I went every day. I went to get food at one place and I went to a bakery.
[00:33:49] And the place that I went to get food, he didn't know any English, so I learned enough German words to be able to order my meal. And when I started speaking a little bit of German, [00:34:00] I saw the biggest smile on his face, was like, wow, this dude is trying, like he doesn't speak my language, but he's trying. And on the other end at the bakery, the woman, she spoke a little bit of English and she has such pride being able to speak a little bit of English.
[00:34:13] She's like, you coming in here every day? She is like, I'm gonna be so good at English. So it's kind of cool to be able to, to live that way. To take outside of yourself. 'cause I mean, I think we all have a tendency to be like, the way that I do it is right and this is the only way to do it. I feel like to varying degrees, we all have that.
[00:34:31] I think it's a very human thing, but to be taken outta that, to be put completely somewhere, it's like being dropped in the middle of the ocean. It's like, all right, now what? Gotta figure it out. And so figuring it out was a lot of fun and it just showed me like. Hey, it's a lot of different ways to do this thing, and it doesn't have to be the same.
[00:34:50] Shannon: Yeah. I, Becky, you asked this question and I don't know if we answered it yet, so I'll get really specific. I think the most life [00:35:00] changing experience for me that opened my eyes was my junior year. I had just lost my, I have to do the great greats, right? The great, great, my great-great grandmother. She died when she was 109.
[00:35:14] And then after that, that summer I went, uh, to London for six weeks. Studied abroad. That was probably the most one 'cause I was still mourning and grieving, but also the process of going somewhere, going out of the country. I. I had gone out the country before, but really out of the country without parents by myself for six weeks was the best experience of my life.
[00:35:41] One because I got to see a different side and I think I've talked about this on another episode. Europe is so different. Like in general, how they look at the work life balance. Just walking down the street was felt different. The F richer, the food was different. Even their fast [00:36:00] food was different. Mm-hmm.
[00:36:01] Quality water. Um mm-hmm. And then I took the train to Paris. Now, in all fairness, some people aren't gonna get mad. I hated Paris, but the experience I had there was something I would, I never, ever take back, freshed up my French. 'cause my accent was more Spanish and French when I got there. 'cause I stopped taking French and like middle school.
[00:36:27] So I had none of the accent left. Did the French, did the Eiffel Tower. Had a horrible experience there. You
[00:36:35] Rick: really liked Paris.
[00:36:36] Shannon: Uh, Mulan, but I walked everywhere. So I walked everywhere from like the Louvre to the Notre Dame, to Sean. Like we walked everywhere. I took the train once and just being with the people, we actually made a friend with a stranger.
[00:36:50] Probably not, again, not a safe thing to do. 'cause they took us on a tour of the rest of the city. I could have been kidnapped, but either way. [00:37:00] But we weren't. I just said it was not a smart decision, but it was. She was very sweet, very nice. Ended up taking us to the nightlife, but just seeing right how they lived, I was not a tourist at that time.
[00:37:10] Just seeing how they lived, trying to adapt, trying to speak French, going back to London and it almost felt like home. Like anytime I, that is the one place I wanna go back to again. It really, I really made myself. I immersed myself in that cultural, going to the museums, sitting and having lunch and tea with cream.
[00:37:33] That's all. How, how I drink my tea now, you know, going to the Buckingham Palace. All those things definitely were experience for me, but it really did teach me that there is a world outside of the United States and sometimes I feel like even now, it's frustrating to me because. I feel like the way that our society, meaning the United States is, is structured, is so, it, it puts in the mind, we're like [00:38:00] the only ones.
[00:38:00] There's very against to it that if, if,
[00:38:02] Beki: if we aren't the only ones, everyone should want to be like us instead of us looking around and saying, Hey, we might be able to learn a thing or two as the younger kid on the block.
[00:38:14] Shannon: Yeah, and so going there, it, it allowed me to have a certain level of respect for Europe in general.
[00:38:22] Then coming back just knowing that like everyone doesn't do the same thing. They, their cities look totally different than at the time Philadelphia. I. But that was probably one of the most, like I was the most calm person in London. Got back, not so much, but that, that shifted my understanding of the world because it's one thing to read about it, hear about in the news, but it's another thing to be in the presence, be in the place with where the news happens and then.
[00:38:53] Realize like these are real people. These are real things. America is not the only place, they're not the only people with, we're not the only ones with struggles and [00:39:00] strife. There is racism in Europe. There are things that happen in London that that happen in the United States. It's similar, but I think that it really helped me understand the differences.
[00:39:10] But the being understanding of the differe differences, what do you think
[00:39:12] Beki: changed for you if that sense, as a result of that trip
[00:39:15] Shannon: sense, I became more, uh, eager to learn. More at that time, like I, I was really proponent of black history, so I was taking a lot of like black history courses, uh, black, um, black mass media to learn about kind of how that was built.
[00:39:31] But that trip or that experience made me mm-hmm. Want to know things internationally, the history of the world, and not just me, my black experience, but also not just like the American story that is so, we're so focused on, I wanna know about. All the stories of the world. And so that was like the shift of I'm not gonna be this arrogant American that thinks that we are the best [00:40:00] and we are the one, because I know that there's a whole entire world that's not, and they might think the same thing of themselves, but
[00:40:07] Rick: I wonder if that experience is different if you're not a minority.
[00:40:12] And coming from America, I wonder if like being a minority, coming from America, knowing how we're treated here, going there. And that makes you look at it a little bit differently because it's, we can't say like, oh, this everything's great here because we know how we get treated here. We know how people who look like us get treated here.
[00:40:31] So going somewhere else is like a little bit different. And I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on going to a country that speaks the same language as you. I mean, they're English. They have English. English, and we have English. English. English is a little bit different than English. Yeah. But I will say, like you telling that story made me think about going just to Canada.
[00:40:54] Like going to Canada. They speak, they speak pretty much the same language, [00:41:00] like not with the, the differences that they do in the UK and. When I go there, I feel like peaceful in, in ways that I don't. In America it is just different. And you think I, I'm in Michigan, so I'm really close to Canada, so just going over there.
[00:41:17] It is funny how I. Some things seem very similar, but it's very different at the same time. So I'm wondering what your experience was over there because you're actually overseas and it's not just like me crossing over into Canada saying, what's up? Oh,
[00:41:31] Shannon: I love I London is a melting pot, but it was interesting.
[00:41:36] London reminds me of New York ish in which you hated in regards to Got
[00:41:41] Beki: it.
[00:41:42] Shannon: But for different reasons. For different reasons. New York, I wanted a melting pot. I wanted diversity. So London, to me, there is a lot of different races, cultures there. So for me it was like a surprise because when you see London, I mean now [00:42:00] you got a lot of shows and stuff that shows the, but not back then, university of London.
[00:42:04] But when I was, but not back then. So to me I was very like pleasantly surprised, like I got. Um, really, really keen on Indian food. When I was there. It was the best. It was so good. So I used to get Samoas all the time. All the time.
[00:42:19] Rick: Yeah. Angles, dialect coming out. Yeah. You got really keen. See it just bleeds out accidentally.
[00:42:27] Shannon: Um, I don't know if it was different. I mean, I went with a group of, they, it was all races that went, 'cause it was I think 20 of us for the study abroad. Maybe less than that, but we all had different experience. But I was out of the 20, there was three black people and the rest were either white or probably white.
[00:42:50] I don't think there was any other race there. I didn't wanna be. Yes. So in general, but I never, I can say that I never felt [00:43:00] how I felt, how I feel in America in some instances. I never felt that. Ironically,
[00:43:05] Beki: what's interesting to me, ironically about that. And about your question, Richard, is that as a white woman from the United States going over to Europe in particular, I.
[00:43:17] I, uh, I think I actually felt more like an outsider there because there were such assumptions about who I was, how I would conduct myself, and I don't know if I should take this as a good thing or a bad thing, but people would confuse us with a Canadian all the time, which. In some ways I think I like, except for,
[00:43:44] Rick: except I think I would like that right now.
[00:43:45] Yeah.
[00:43:46] Beki: Sorry, Canada, but we're not being nice. Sorry, Mexico not being nice. Um, sorry. The world maybe. Um, but I, I think it's one of the things, so even when I was in Argentina, [00:44:00] one of the things that people would say to me all the time is, oh no, people can pick you out as an American. And I was like, okay. But other people have blonde hair.
[00:44:09] And okay. Blue eyes wasn't so common, but the blonde hair definitely was. And they said, oh no, no, the you, you stand out. And I don't know if it's the way I dressed, the way I walked, all of the things that would come into play there. But they know you before you open your mouth. And there are assumptions.
[00:44:34] Yes. Not by everyone. But there are reasonable assumptions based on data collected about who I am as a human being when they know that I'm an American. And so for me, obviously in the United States, I don't get that. I get assumptions made about me as a woman here, and I really love it when they underestimate me.
[00:44:59] When I [00:45:00] travel, I, I'm not so in love with the idea that I am underestimated or I am put into a bucket because that bucket doesn't usually represent who I am. I might get a little loud every once in a while, gimme a couple cocktails. I can get a little loud. So there's that, but I just really want. To be seen as me in those moments, and that's the only kind of indication when that doesn't really happen for me is when I travel internationally.
[00:45:37] Shannon: That is true, and that's a carte blanche. I don't know what vibe Americans give, but they extremely could. I don't know if it's just the way we walk, the way we carry ourselves. But they always knew I was American and any, any way, shape or form, even when I go to Canada, but I go to Montreal, which is like, oh, love Montreal more French.
[00:45:56] So I, again, French gotta practice it, but [00:46:00] um, they do know that I am American even though I do make efforts to, again, make myself flexible to the environment that I'm in. I will say going to London, even when in Canada. The only time I did feel some type of way is if I talked to some, we met some, what am I, I don't wanna say neighborhood, but like people that were from there that, that were our age.
[00:46:23] And this is why, again, why I came back and I really wanted to know internationally, there is a ignorance to Americans that is not like the age group of what. We were compared to what they are in regards to knowledge of the world, historical information was totally different. And so there was, again, I think this arrogance of thinking that America's so great, but these kids were like.
[00:46:45] It's like, what, what about the history? They know more about history than I'm like, I, when do you learn this? At what age? So that was probably, again, the only difference was it was like the, the intelligence level and the knowledge of [00:47:00] history in regards to like their lives and the country and the world.
[00:47:05] Was to like far beyond anything that I've ever experienced.
[00:47:08] Rick: See, that's crazy because I never even considered going back to the, being singled out as being American. I never even considered that and I, I'm glad you brought that up, Becky, because when I was in Germany and when I go to Canada and Toronto, like specifically like Toronto, where it's melting pots, I feel.
[00:47:28] I never feel like everybo anybody's ever able to call me out on like, Hey, you're American. I don't know if it's my locks in the way that I fit into the culture or the way I walk or talk or whatever, but I've never, I never really have gotten those assumptions when I'm out of the country that I'm American and a lot I can, I think thinking like Toronto specifically, there's so many people from so many different places that it's like I kind of fit in.
[00:47:51] Like I, I have, like when I travel, I usually have a book bag on. And everybody there is carrying a book bag and you have your headphones on you going, going about your [00:48:00] business. Uh, so I don't, I don't know. I never, never really considered being singled out as a American and it's kind of, I. It's kind of interesting to me that it's like, that could almost be like a negative because so many assumptions.
[00:48:12] It's like for, for you, like that's almost like being a minority in America. It's like going, going to like Europe and I'm like, oh, you're American. Like I know how you are.
[00:48:22] Beki: Well, and I am in, in fairness, I, I am a minority when I am outside of the United States. States and you know, and in some cases, kind of like the experience Shannon was talking about, people come up and they're, they're really helpful.
[00:48:36] They're, they kind of assume you don't know where you are, you don't know where you're going, and they're there to help you with those kinds of things. Other times they'll give you directions in the wrong direction depending on which country you're in, and they might just mm-hmm. Send you a field. But I, I think that there are pros and cons to that.
[00:48:52] The, the thing that I keep on coming back to. Is for, for so many they don't have an [00:49:00] opportunity or a desire to travel. And yet there's still, even within the United States, an opportunity to learn about different people, learn about what they care about and how they care about, and I sometimes wonder about what can I say to people who have not had that experience to help them at least know why it matters to me.
[00:49:25] And I think about all of the different experiences. So when I went to college, when I was working for that job, when I started traveling, when I spent six months in Argentina, just sort of the way I live my life, being curious about why do you think that? What, what, what made you choose that? And it's not from a judgey place all the time, it's also from that place of, I just kind of wanna know how your brain works.
[00:49:51] To me, that's hugely interesting, but it also adds a whole lot of value to my life because [00:50:00] when I'm stuck in something, I start flipping through my memories of how other people have talked about what they've done, and it might actually generate a different idea so that I'm not so stuck. Anymore. To me that's really valuable that I have an understanding of how other people think and behave and what their priorities are so that it's actually kind of a database of ideas.
[00:50:26] If I could be truly selfish about it, and I think that's valuable, and I wish more people had that. I sincerely wish that more people had that because I think they'd see so much more value. And understanding people who aren't exactly like them.
[00:50:44] Shannon: Yeah. Uh, I agree. I think now I'm like, there's a full fledged moment.
[00:50:48] I'm not gonna cry on this podcast, but there is a gratefulness from my upbringing because it was always instilled to travel. And there was one point my cousin lived with [00:51:00] us, she traveled abroad to Russia. We had a foreign exchange student. My older sister had someone come and they were from Spain and my sister went to Spain.
[00:51:08] So they had like a, I didn't, they didn't do it at my school, but they had an exchange program where she came one summer. Then the other summer my sister went there. So there was always a foundation of, I want you to experience this world. I think if we, not, not the America, but this world. So shout out to my parents for doing that.
[00:51:30] 'cause it's, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm like, wow. Like. I don't know if I would've had the same mindset to leave and travel and go to school out of the state that I lived in, or have the aspirations to travel the world had it not been for that foundation set. But I think it's really important that we start to, you ask like, how do you kind of share.
[00:51:53] Like that, the value of it. I think the value of it comes from experiences, like how do we, we connect through [00:52:00] experiences and the more experiences you have, the more connections you can have, the more lessons you learn. And so I think if you travel, if you do study abroad, if you go to school outside of your state, you push yourself out of the comfort zone that you live in.
[00:52:12] Your life will be fuller of experiences that can teach you different things. And so I think that's a way to share that. And anybody that. Is isn't around me. My younger cousin, I said travel, I. Get to know the world. It is your oyster, literally. And the more experiences you gain, the more well versed you are.
[00:52:33] If someone stays in the same place with the same people their entire lives, their experiences are limited, their knowledge of other things, cultures, races, religion is limited to what their experiences are. So if you expand your experiences, you'll be a better person and you'll be more connected to people all across the world, not just in your.
[00:52:53] Radius.
[00:52:55] Rick: I think for me, whenever you see people in media, [00:53:00] characters on television and movies of different races, usually what they, what writers do, they'll take some of the most common traits and exaggerate 'em. So when you meet someone of that race, if you never have, you're going off of those exaggerated commonalities that you try to put into a character.
[00:53:22] The more you learn and the more experiences you have, the smarter you are and the more knowledge that you have. So just being able to travel and see how other people do it, and it just opens up ways of thinking that you never thought possible. And that's something that I experienced in Germany. That's something that I experience every time I go to Canada.
[00:53:43] It's just being able to see the way that other people live and the other, the way that other people carry their lives. And get to know more people so you have a bigger sample size of people that aren't like you, that are still good people, and you're able to draw that in and say like, oh, [00:54:00] everybody's not the same.
[00:54:00] But that's not bad. And I think when you're isolated with people that look and act and think exactly like you do, it can be very limiting in a sense, because you never get those challenging mindsets. You think that A the wake, because everybody I'm around does it this way. This is the only way to do it and this is the right way to do it and it's the best way to do it.
[00:54:25] But once you experience other people and they experience you, and you have the chance to go back and forth, what is the iron sharpens iron. You get sharper. You get to learn things, you get to pull things from other cultures, you get to pull things from other people. And I don't think it's anything more valuable than that.
[00:54:41] And I think that is why it's kind of really disheartening for me. When you see that some of the books and things that are being banned and limited in schools now that show other points of view and show other different types of people that everybody's not accustomed to being [00:55:00] around. I mean, because like if you, it's scary to see something on tv, oh, that's not like me.
[00:55:05] It goes against what I believe. And then you meet a person and then you find out, oh, they are belong to that group. It opens up your eyes and it's like, oh, they're are humans. So we as humans sometimes. I know in America, and I've seen it other places too, but we, we have a tendency where we can like dehumanize groups of people and I think that is a very dangerous thing to do.
[00:55:27] And I think it's important to remember that, hey, they don't look like you, but they're still humans just like you. And unless you're around it, you really don't get the benefit of really learning it.
[00:55:38] Beki: What I think is so interesting about what we've been talking about today is just, I mean, you said there, Richard, this idea of, you know, they're inflated characteristics and they're put into a character and that's exactly what we do.
[00:55:54] We characterize people. In bundles [00:56:00] and I think about, you know, for people who don't have means or don't have the desire to, to leave the United States to go learn these things, you don't actually have to go very far. I. Right. I, I bet there's someone with a different sexual orientation. I'm guessing that there's someone who is neurodivergent, who's not that far from you geographically.
[00:56:24] Certainly someone of a different race where I grew up, it was absolutely a farming community, but we were not that far from a city center where, I mean, it could be as simple as experiencing the food of a different culture and maybe, I don't know, talking to people. About the food and the origins of the food.
[00:56:45] It doesn't have to be, I'm doing a world tour, which does sound amazing to me, but not to everyone. And so you can learn about things right now. One of the big things that [00:57:00] I hear all the time is, well, it's hard to know what's true. This group says this, this group says this, and everyone is lying. I don't know what's true.
[00:57:11] I think one of the ways that we could find out what's true is to go ask the people who are behind the assumptions, learn a little bit something about those things that you're uncertain about, and you'll start to form your own opinion and you don't have to use someone else's. To me, that's the biggest value of H cultural diversity as an asset in your toolkit.
[00:57:37] But that's just maybe me or us.
[00:57:40] Shannon: Yeah. Well said. Mic drop.
[00:57:45] Beki: Thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember, the world looks different through every lens. Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us.
[00:57:58] Your voice helps us grow [00:58:00] and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Becky and on behalf of myself, Richard and Shannon, thanks for listening. Until next time.
[00:58:07] I.
