BigTeamIU: Welcome United! So we have a great episode for you today. I'm here from the Hallowed Hall, Assembly Hall, to give you a sneak preview of some of highlights of the great things coming this episode. Enjoy!
KC: I wasn't looking for glory and personal accolades. If you shine, I shine was the way I always approached it. Let me get you a pass. Let me make sure you get a bucket. Let me make sure you get a touchdown. Hey, I'll block for you. Hey, I'll get this for you. And so they love that I was that generous athlete. So so this is like Disney, a Disney movie, right? It's for everybody. This
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: podcast episode is for everybody. Right?
RJ Russell: Die.
KC: I'll push through on those days where my mood doesn't match my goals and aspirations, right? Those are the days, right, where you build your grit and resilience. But you also learn about yourself. And my first year, what happened was my coach remembered I spoke Serbian and Vladi Divat was having a game and he didn't like that he was killing us. So he wanted to distract him. So he literally in the middle of the competitive crucible, he turns to me and says, Start insulting that guy and his language, Carol. I know you speak it. I'm like, Coach, that man's seven feet tall. Why would I do that? Carol, Carol, be a team player, help us out.
BigTeamIU: for all you need. save You saved me, you rescued me
RJ Russell: welcome to United with Big Team at Indian University's podcast on student athlete mental health. I'm your host, RJ Russell, second year PhD student in the counseling psychology program with the concentration in sport and performance psychology at Indian University. I'm excited about today's episode. We're gonna be talking with Kevin Carroll about being a positive force, creating culture, and working with athletes. Thank you for coming on, Casey. How are you doing today?
KC: Absolutely RJ. We we got history, so it's really cool to hear your little intro and hear your your your elevated voice and presence. I'm like, okay, this isn't that that university I think I met you what your sophomore year? Were you in your s were your senior were you a senior at at Ohio State then? It was your s you were a senior year. It was your last year. Yeah, yeah.
RJ Russell: senior senior year. It was right right to the right at the end. Senior. Senior was my last year. Yep.
KC: So it's it's really to see this evolution of you. is really kinda cool. So I'm excited to to chop it up with you today.
RJ Russell: Yep, so and and getting to say PhD student now, that's always fun.
KC: Yeah, how about that? Yes, yes, yes Yes, and that has
RJ Russell: So
KC: not been an easy road for sure. We all know.
RJ Russell: No. So it it's been it's been nice to to get to this point for sure. but in honor of our national champion, Indiana Hoosiers football team, we have a unique way of introducing our guest. So we're gonna introduce KC with the help of Coach Signetti. So coach, let's get it started. So Casey, if the audience Googled you, what would come up in the search?
KC: Let's see. For sure, instigator of inspiration. I think that's what they would find, for sure. And I think Because I'm low-key about what I do, it's a if you know you know kind of thing. You gotta be willing to kind of go down the rabbit hole to find things about me because it's just the way that I operate. I love being in the shadows and just doing the work and being applied in my practice and my efforts and as one of my friends says, my ministry and the work that I do with young people and athletes and business people. But I think a big part of it is you have to be willing and be curious to find out. about me. I think that's
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: one of the key things. But but if you're curious, you're gonna be like, snap, snap, what? Wait, what?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: Did that just say that? So I think that's the thing that I love when people are discovering things about me. Like over time, they go, yo, I didn't know that. Like you never brought that
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: up. I'm like, exactly. I'd rather you discover it.
RJ Russell: Yeah. And that and that's it. Like, okay, so but before we dive in, I'd love to go back to the beginning, right? 'Cause you've you've had a a path that isn't one that many of could could've predicted, right? So walk us through the journey, you know, think about okay, Air Force, athletic trainer at Saint Joe's, athletic trainer with the Sixers, Nike Catalyst, author speaker, and just overall impacting athletes, you know, on the highest levels. You know, what are the connecting threads that tie all those chapters together?
KC: I think well the connecting thread is play and a ball saving my life. I really do talk about play a lot and how play creates this wonderful kind of connection, but also a place of belonging and also even more importantly where you feel seen. For me it was really important the playground in my grandparents' neighborhood. was the first place I felt seen and felt connected. And I had a childhood that was just filled with abandonment and addiction, upheaval and uncertainty, dysfunction, disappointment. It was just a lot of upheaval throughout my entire childhood until my grandparents rescued us from a really bad situation. My mom had abandoned me and my two brothers and left us in a trailer for five days and we were miles away from Philly.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And I remember my grandfather's phone number And I had a stranger call my grandfather. And my grandfather orchestrated us getting on a bus eight, six, and three years old by ourselves, and the bus driver watching over us and getting us back to Philadelphia, and my grandparents making the decision that my mom was not getting us back. And they paid the bus driver and they took us in and they said, We're gonna raise you as best we can. We'll give you food to eat, a roof over your heads, but you're gonna have to raise yourself. So imagine you hear that at six years old, and my response
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: was pop-up. There's a playground near your house?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And he goes, Yeah. I said, I just need to run. That was my response. That was my way of coping, was movement. And so I went up to the playground. There's a group of kids up there. This is the Cliff Notes version. A group of kids up there balling, and they see me by myself and they say, Hey, you want to come join us? And so I go over there. You you know how this works in Philly. If you get a nickname, it sticks. So I got a nickname on that day, Little Fast Kid. And so that was the first time I felt seen, six years old. And I associated it with a ball and I went, wait, if this ball can help me do this, where people see me, I'ma stay around it. And so I just made a decision I don't think I ever verbalized it to anyone. It was an internal one that I'm gonna keep a ball with me no matter what. And I'm gonna just stay around it. And so I just threw myself headlong into sports. And I played sports not for trophies or medals, first place. It was always for belonging. It was always for connection. It was always for community. I loved being on teams and that unlocked everything for me because I learned, you know, discipline, goal setting, had great coaches, people
RJ Russell: Sorry.
KC: that saw that I had this innate gift, right, of understanding games and I was quick. So hey, play on this team. We're gonna go play this neighborhood. Hey, come with us. We're gonna and I was playing with the older kids when I was six and seven and eight years old.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And my friends were like, how come they keep asking? I I don't know. And then they explained to me later, you get it. So when you started to understand that you're seeing sports and play from a different thing, but it was the reason I was doing it. I wasn't looking for glory and personal accolades. If you shine, I shine was the way I always approached it. Let me get you a pass. Let me make sure you get a bucket. Let me make sure you get a touchdown. Hey, I'll block for you. Hey, I'll get this for you. And so they love that I was that generous athlete. And I think that has served me well my entire life, right? To always helping others feel seen and engaged in things. And so sports became my thing Books became my thing. The public library was my other safe place as a kid. And we had a public library just blocks away from the neighborhood that I grew up in, just outside of Philly. And so I went there on a regular basis. And so the librarians embraced me because they saw I would go there by myself. So they would leave books. Before there was an Amazon recommends, bruh, they had stuff on the shelf for me at the front desk with my name on it. So I'd go up there, grab them, and just spent hours in the library studying. So I really loved school and I was really good with. Words. And I always had to honor her any podcast or any conversation. Miss Rock, my third grade teacher, she introduced me to a thesaurus. And I became this like wordsmith, right? This verbal gymnast. I had all kind of words that I could pull as a nine-year-old, right? Pugilistic,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: cacophony, bedlam, right? I was bringing diminutive. That was my go-to if you call me short. I was coming for your neck. Right? Diminutive,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: right? I'm not short, I'm diminutive. Right. But she was so remarkable in that she saw I had a way with my studies,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: and she knew that I was curious. So she said, Here, look at this book. It's called a thesaurus. It's filled with words. I'm like, What? Leafing through, find a new word, find a new word. So I was a really good student too. And then my best friend's mom. Here, actually, I always love to show this. Miss Lane, so this is my best friend's mom. Y'all can see that.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: So Miss Lane, I meet her at nine years old. And Miss Lane becomes basically my mom. But I affectionately call her my CEO, my chief encouragement officer of my hopes, my dreams, my aspirations, my goals. Like she unlocked everything. She was a cheat code before it was even a word, right? She was the person who gave me all that the life hacks, right? She gave she was my wayfinder. She was brilliant. Philadelphia Public School teacher for thirty-two years, but my life teacher. And sh they lived right across the street from my grandparents' house. So I would go to their house every day and just hang out with Miss Lane. I was best friends with her son, but I was even closer to Miss Lane. And so
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: she would always challenge me with, What are your dreams? What are your goals? What are your aspirations? And I would tell her this or that or this. She'd say, Okay, don't talk about it, be about it.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: There's lots of talkers, Kevin, and very few doers. Which one are you? So imagine
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: learning accountability at nine, 10, 11 years old. So you put this whole equation together. I was raised by drug dealers and users, war veterans and workers, other kids' parents, custodians, librarians, food service workers, all these people I'm this wonderful mosaic of. And
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I figured out how to rise above my suffering and circumstances and not let my circumstances dictate my destiny. So I end up to the things you were unpacking before I went into my origin story. I got a bachelor's degree in speech communication, sports medicine. I got a master's degree in health education. Got a second graduate degree recently in sports psychology. Spent 10 years in the Air Force as a language translator where I learned five languages. I speak Serbian, Croatian, Russian, German, Czech. Dropped Spanish after five minutes in high school, just an FYI for y'all, just so you know
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: that I was a bit of a knucklehead back in the day, too. And so I thought languages were stupid. Like I'm like, but who needs this? Like, what
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: am I gonna do with you know Spanish, right? But I had a gift. I like I still returned. That five estusana en casa no la casina, donde está la sala, no la casina, and I walked out of class. So I had ability.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: The military gives you a like this whole kind of series of tests to see if you have a hidden talent. Lo and behold, I did, right? But they send me to school for cerebral creation and check. I'm like, what am I gonna do with these languages? But they end up coming in handy. Athletic trainer, leave the Air Force after 10 years, move back to Philly. High school, two high schools in the Philly area, then the Saint Joe's University, and then the Sixers, which was a crazy way that that happened, cause the Sixers used to practice at Saint Joe's. So it's Mamba Day. So when you when you release this, I don't know, but people should know it's eight twenty four that we're recording this. And so it is Mamba
RJ Russell: Yes.
KC: Day, Kobe Bryant Day, and I babysat him when he was thirteen. So people are always like, What? I'm like, yeah, I babysat him when he was 13. I stayed cool with him all through high school. It's actually pretty cool that Aspen Project Play actually posted the video of me interviewing him in 2018 as part of their play summit. And we talked about our relationship. And one of the things that was really cool is I behaved like Miss Lane with him. I want nothing from you. I want only the best for you. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I didn't Like have these aspirations. I'm gonna stay connected to this kid, he's gonna become a big deal. Bruh, how can I help you? How can I help you be better?
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: And I think one of the things that you happen to ask me, like, I'd love to hear like a really good Kobe story. But here's the one that nobody really knows is
RJ Russell: Sure.
KC: that I used to watch Bean, that's what we called him in Philly, Bean and Dawn Staley run lunchtime basketball together at St. Joe's. Two icons, bruh. Two icons.
RJ Russell: Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: And the best part, see, you didn't know that story. That's why your reaction is so beautiful and genuine.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Yes, bruh. They would come in, the two of them would show up at lunchtime ball, and basically we got next, and ain't nobody taking us off the court. Yes. So I took care of Dawn.
RJ Russell: Yeah, 'cause the two of those
KC: I took care of Dawn when she was playing still. Dawn and I are still cool to this day. And so shout out Dawn Staley, icon, right? Just yeah, game changer in many, many ways. But I No dog from back in the day, right? And you know, one thing that people understand, and RJ, I know you understand, is Philly basketball is really, really this tight-knit community. It's a really remarkable community, how close everybody is, and how everybody is cool with each other that way, right? If you're part of that community, it's lifelong, right? And so I think there's something really magical about being able to see someone when they're a zero trying to be a one, Kobe Bean Bryant, right? He was just starting out. His high school team was not great his first two years. And he kept working and pulled everybody along with him. And to witness that and to watch that and to play a small part in his success, yeah, I'm very honored that I got to do that. And for him to always stay cool with me all these years and stuff, right up to his passing. We were always very, very cool. And I just think there's something really magical about when you are not being transactional with someone, you're trying to be transformational. And he appreciated that. And I think that's why we could just hit the ground. Like we were summer camp friends, right? Literally it was summer camp where I babysat him. But we that interview, if you watch it, you have the link so you can share it with folks. But you can see, like, there's like, whoa, my wife said he's just 13 with you. He's not this multi-championship MVP scoring champion. He's just 13 with you, just talking. I'm like, yeah, we're just chopping it up, right? And there's a great moment because we filly hijack the stage. They try to like rap. Wrap it up, rap and we both like, they
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: trying to tell us to stop? Man, we Philly hijacking this, right? This John.
RJ Russell: Ha.
KC: Right. And wait, and Coby said, John, I ain't heard that in a minute, right? So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the 76ers practiced out of fill out of St. Joe's, and I got to help out with them when my student athletes were at school. And Coach Lucas was the head coach then. The athletic trainer that was there was going back to the Pistons, Mike Abdenauer, and Coach Lucas approached me about becoming the head athletic trainer for the Sixers, and I actually said no. I said, I don't really want that job. I know what's entailed.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I know it's not an easy job. You travel a lot. I'm a single dad. I'm raising my boys. I don't really want that job. And he said, it will change you and your family's life. And so I agreed to get that job after five years of getting out of the military and just being an athletic trainer for five years. Unheard of. Right, that you would get the head athletic trainer job. And I was a third black athletic trainer in the history of the NBA and with the Sixers. And it was Iverson, I was with Iverson his rookie year, Jerry Stackhouse his rookie year. Yeah. So I got to see some
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: iconic moments there. I was on the bench when Iverson crossed Jordan. And my first year, what happened was my coach remembered I spoke Serbian and Vladi Divat was having a game and he didn't like that he was killing us. So he wanted to distract him. So he literally in the middle of the competitive crucible, he turns to me and says, Start insulting that guy and his language, Carol. I know you speak it. I'm like, Coach, that man's seven feet tall. Why would I do that? Carol, Carol, be a team player, help us out. I'm trying to say this time out. Just say something about his mom or dad or sister or brother when he runs by the bench. So I'm like, Coach, like he says, be a team player, Carol, help us out. So you get two weeks of obscenities training in the military. It is like the it's like the pinnacle moment of your training. They wait till the very end, right? Obscenity is weak, right? It's like right. And so you learn every bad thing you could possibly say to somebody, right? Like you, it's like gutter, mud stuff, man. Like you coming for people's necks. And so I'm like saying, Your mom, your dad, your sister, your brother to Vlade, fifth time. He walks towards our best of games going on, and he goes, Who's insulting my family over here in Serbia? And the coach pulls. Points at me goes, that little guy right there. And Father goes, what? I double-day. He's like, what? Rest of the game, ain't making no shots, just staring at me every time he runs by the bench. The game ends. He comes into our locker room looking for me. And I'm like, no, this can't be good.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And the most unexpected thing happens. He starts laughing and he goes, I never thought I'd meet a black guy that could speak Serbian like
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: that. And like just like it's as if you grew up in my neighborhood.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: He said, hey, the Yugoslavia national basketball team just qualified for the Olympic Games in Atlanta in 1996. We need a sports medicine liaison and a translator. You're perfect. So I joined the Yugoslavia national basketball team for the 96 Olympic Games as their sports medicine liaison and translator. The NBA thought it was like quite an unusual story, this little black guy from Philly. So they did
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: a feature on me on NBA Inside Stuff, back in the day show for your listeners and viewers that might not know, you can Google that, Google that. And someone from Nike saw it. Saw the story and they
RJ Russell: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: contact me and that someone was Howard White. Howard White is the same person who convinced Michael Jordan to sign with Nike. And
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Howard White reaches out to me and says hey I've done my homework on you, saw this feature about you, know you're a single dad I know Coach Lucas. We played at Maryland together. He's told me all these great things about you. Wondering if you would be willing to take a risk and leave the 76ers and move to Portland, Oregon, and we're gonna create a job for you.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: We think we could do magic together with you. You're great innovation, great energy, you're curious. We think it could be really valuable for our company. And so I had to sit down with my two sons. They were real quick to say, if we get free gear, dad, we in. And so, yes,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: we do. And so we I left the 76ers and I remember they said, What a big mistake you're making. We're gonna be this or that or this. And I said, Yeah, but I wanna be the dad that I didn't have. I wanna be present. And so
RJ Russell: Exactly. Yeah.
KC: I left the Sixers after two seasons in 1997. I moved out here to Portland, Oregon, where I still live, and I worked at Nike for seven years. And my official title at Nike was Catalyst with the K because of Kevin. And so they actually created a position for me there and I was the spark, hence the catalyst,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: right? An excitatory agent that speeds up or changes the process. I was the person who basically was the bridge builder. What I really did, RJ, was recreate Preston Playground. A place that was inviting, welcoming, inclusive, a place where everybody felt seen and they felt like they belonged. And I got a chance to work all over the company. I worked with the top designer there, Tinker Hatfield. I worked in internal communications. They were basically putting me in places where they felt it needed an injection of energy and innovation and curiosity. Phil Knight called me the mayor of Nike. And so after one of my capers, I did these creative capers on campus. So Bill Barman, you were a track runner, so you'll know Bill Barman, Waffle Out Waffle Outsole, Waffle Iron, you know, the infamous mythical story about that. Which is real that he did that, right? With rubber and a waffle iron and making the outsole for his track athletes at the University of Oregon. So he passed away and we had a celebration of life. And I said, Wouldn't it be great if everyone got a waffle when they went into
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the celebration? So I organized that because I was cool with the food service team and the different people there and the chefs. And so we had waffles for everybody. And Phil Knight found out that I did it and asked to meet me. He asked me why I did it. I said, Well, you created a place where a me could be celebrated.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Someone who loves sport like I do. And I can come to work every day and think about the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning that inspires me. He said, Why wouldn't
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: I want to show my gratitude to someone who's the co-founder of this place? He says, Huh. He said, Well, you're kind of like the mayor here, if you could pull that off. So I should be meeting the mayor. And so
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: he called me the mayor of Nike from that point, and I had a standing meeting with Phil Knight. For two years, a monthly meeting, and I was not an executive or a senior leader within the company. He saw that I had influence without title. And I spent those
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: seven years there and then wrote a a book. ESPN signs me to a book deal, CAA becomes my talent agent, Nikes travel me around the world to speak on behalf of the power of sport. And one thing leads to another, and I'm like, I don't know if I should stay. I've got these opportunities
RJ Russell: Hmm.
KC: outside of here. I'd have more freedom. Freedom is my thing. If I have more freedom, I could be more productive, but I love it here. And Phil Knight told me, I don't let talent leave here. But
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: we would be selfish to keep you. And we'll be watching. And so I left in 2004 and I've been on my own now. This is my 22nd year. On my own, author speaker, instigator of inspiration. Google me. So so there you so
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: here we are. Yeah.
RJ Russell: Man, you you so I
KC: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot to unpack, man. Right and and and so don't let my youthful energy fool you, right? I want you to I want you to see and feel my energy before you know my age. So my birthday's coming up and I'll be sixty eight. So I always tell people because people try to do the math, like, wait a minute, that's a lot of stuff he packed in in that short amount of time. How did he do all that? Yeah. So people start doing the math. The math ain't math in the math. So that I had to always like dis dispel that myth like no dude I've seen some things. I've been on the planet for a minute now.
RJ Russell: Man. You know, you've you spent your your career helping shape environments, teams, cultures, you know. So when you walk into, you know, a new team, organization, locker room, what's the first thing you evaluate about the culture?
KC: I I watch and listen more than I speak. And I'll do that for a length of time so that I can kind of just observe the dynamic that's going on. there's this great study about high fives, right? I think they did it with the Golden State Warriors. Are you familiar with that? The NBA touch study? Yeah, yeah, the NBA touch study. I'll send it to you. But it's they actually literally took a whole season and actually evaluate how many times they touch. Hug, dap, whatever, and they had won the championship that year. And
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: so they went back and looked at what was the telling thing and they said their connection. Genuine connection. And so I think that's one of the first things I look for is right, how connected are you? And touch is one of the highest, quickest things you can pay attention to, right? Is just how much you dapen up each other, right? In a genuine
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: way. Right? Not in some transactional way, but in a transformative way. And I really love kind of being in this observation mode where people are like, hey, don't you have nah, I'm good. I'm just kind of like laying in the cut. I'm watching right now and I'll watch for a while and then drop a little pearl, drop a little insight, drop a little thing. But I think culture, because it's such a dynamic thing, you have to actually allow yourself time to observe it. And every culture is different. And I think that curiosity serves me well to come in with this curiosity that I don't think every culture is cookie cutter and the same thing. I don't want the same approach. But the first thing I will always do is come in with a level of curiosity and then want to discover
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the way that you're you've formed and shaped your culture. And you know, the leader is a loud part of the culture and they tell you a lot. And so I'm not getting invited to spend time with any organization or team. without the leader understanding me. And I think that's
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: a key piece that I'm not for everybody. And I get that and I understand that. And so I you gotta feel my energy and be a person that's like doesn't feel like, he's gonna try to usurp energy from me or no, I'm an additive. But every leader doesn't
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: see that, right? Because most there's a lot of leaders in sports. My message is my message and I only want my voice to be heard. I don't want anybody else who could potentially Hijack my message.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And so meeting leaders that get that that's not my jam, that's not my plan. Dude, I don't have time to be running around trying to hijack your message. I'm trying to be here to help. But there's a lot
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: of, you know, there's a lot of paranoia in sports
RJ Russell: Huh?
KC: and in locker rooms. And so I think a big part of what I've learned is if I get invited, you already kind of feel what I'm about and you understand that. And also when you invite me to go deeper into your organization to, hey, let me know, like basically do a culture audit that I'm going to sit back, lay back and watch. And then I'm gonna give you my observations. But I think curiosity, you know, going in and then paying attention to connection and the bet and the way that it connect and verb, like the words that they're using, I think the language is really important also. So having that curiosity about connection and language that they're using and leadership, right, is your staff a direct reflection of you.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Cause look, your staff is going to either be a direct reflection or they're going to create their subcultures in their position rooms, let's say in football, right? They will. And now you've got three, four different messages, five, six, seven, whatever messages going around. And there's a lot of confusion. So I think that's one thing that I really have been mindful of when I go into organizations is just have a level of curiosity and openness, but pay attention to the tells.
RJ Russell: And I think one thing that I've always remired about you is also how you show up, you know, so authentically as yourself, you know, in the spaces that you've been in and how that's opened so many doors for you. So how has being unapologetically Kevin Carroll helped you build those relationships and really, you know, work with athletes in those, you know, elite sport environments?
KC: It's interesting because I think showing up fully as you and having the confidence, it takes time. Like I I think there's a lot of young people who think, well, they gotta love me for me, but yo, dude, you don't even know who you are yet. Like you trying to figure out who you are. So why not do that work first? And figure out who you are and then consistently show up that way and then right start to be on a little bit of a flex about who you are and what you're trying to do and and all that. I think it's really important that the things that have inv allowed me to go into spaces where I can just be me is Once again, leaders recognizing. So I'm getting invited. I'm not pitching you anymore. I'm not forcing myself on you. Those days are way past me. And I really wasn't that way in the beginning anyway. When I got my gigs, you know, head athletic trainer at this high school or this high school or St. Joe's, I was being
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: where my feet are. Like I was happy there and it was gonna be the place that I was gonna be. And I wasn't thinking about, this is gonna set me up for No, I wasn't thinking about that. How can I do the best job here? So that when I'm not in rooms, people are talking about me in a favorable way. So
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I really started to understand the importance of doing a great job and really pursuing excellence on a regular basis and modeling that and embodying that on the regular. So that people saw that, like, you you're about it. Like you you do this, you do that, you do the little things, like you're not above anything, but I do think the military helped me understand that, right? So you learned in the
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: military, when you're finished your job, find another job.
RJ Russell: Okay.
KC: When you're finished your job, find another job. Find something else to do. Don't be just standing around. And
RJ Russell: Yeah. He worked. Mm-hmm.
KC: so I think that that mindset and that attitude has served me well. And it also is part of my brand, if you will, the way I show up. How can I be of service? How can I help? I think I am a servant leader. I do think that, but that's also the athletic trainer in me, right? That's what you learn, right? To be of service. How do you support people? How do I help you return to play? How am I helping you get back in the game? Right. And so all those things I think have served me well in these environments to have a level of humility. To be someone who wants to be supportive and how can we win, right? If you shine, I shine, right? We not me, any of those things, I've always kind of embodied that because I understand that all the way back to the playground. Because if I can keep you engaged, you would stay longer. So, how do I always make sure you're first? How do I ask you, how are you doing? What's going on with you? What's what's your story today? Right. And so I think there's something really powerful about helping people feel seen.
RJ Russell: Okay.
KC: And if that's part of my brand, right? The way that I show up authentically and people know that, yo, Casey, you're so good about staying in touch. Well, I learned that. Way, way, way, way back. Like, yo, you come into the playground today, you know, hollering at somebody from the street, yo, you go, we
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: get ready to run, okay? We need one, right? We're short, right? I I'll
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: be right there. I mean, so just always checking on people and always reaching out to people, and I'm still that way. And so I think when you learn a behavior and it has served you well, you're gonna continue that behavior. And so if that is my authentic self always wanting to connect. always wanted to build relationships authentically and genuinely and not be transactional, then yeah, it would serve me well. Cause I'm well versed in it, right? I have a level of mastery in it over time, right? That I didn't know I was doing that. It was really out of necessity. And then it just became behavior that I do on a regular. So I do think there's something really beautiful about when people say, Yeah, you're always the same guy. Every day. I'm like, thank you. That's what I hope to be, right? And even when you have challenging days, right, I know that I need to show up a certain way for my work and what I do. Right, because you might be having a rough day and you might be looking to me. Okay, so then how can I get myself right right and ready to fight the good fight on behalf of, you know, what I deem is the important things that I do on the daily. So yeah, I do think authenticity takes time. for someone to develop it and to figure out who they are. And I think a lot of times folks are trying to model themselves after other people, but why don't you just cherry pick from what you think this person has or that person with the best of this, the best of that, and then build this mosaic, right? This beautiful kind of pieces of you, puzzle of you, of all those people that you want to, and then make it your own. I think that's the key thing around, you know, truly, you know, your authentic self. But it takes time, so you have to have a level of patience. Just be patient. It'll all play out. But you know, RJ, I think one of the things you need to be thinking about, now that you're in this place, you're doing your PhD,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: is yes, there is this wonderful thing of having that the gravitas, right? And all of that. But what does it really mean truly to you at your core? Like, why am I actually doing this? Because that's not for the faint at heart. It's a long process. And people lose their energy enthusiasm because it takes so long.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And so if it's really not what you're about, people fall off. Right?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And so that's where you start to really start to evaluate. I am if this is me at my core. I'll push through on those days where my mood doesn't match my goals and aspirations, right? Those are the days, right, where you build your grit and resilience. But you also learn about yourself. Does this really matter to me? Is this really important? Man, I'm tired. I had a long day, and then I gotta get up at four, so I can be in the building by six, right? As an athletic trainer or someone who's a consulting, and I'm like, man, but hey, my mood's not matching my intention. But this is a good day then. Cause if I can get my ass up and get to that facility,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I'm like, okay, let's go, right? Because I know I'm winning. Cause other people said, you know what? I'll get in a little late. They really didn't say I had to be there at that time. Or they didn't say I had to do that work. Or that I needed to spend that extra time. So I just think you're at a place as you're going through your PhD, there's plenty of times that you could say, you know what? I'm take this radical sabbatical and set this aside, not do it for a little bit, right? Or let me buck up and get after this. But that's
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: about you and who at your core. And so when you talk about your true authentic self, what's at your core?
RJ Russell: I'm gonna hit you with some some rapid fire questions that I have. So the first one is what's one book you feel like every coach should read?
KC: The Alchemist. Paulo Coelho. Gotta read that one. Gotta
RJ Russell: Yeah. Yeah.
KC: read that one. That's about personal legend. It's about human alchemy, right? It's about making magic to you know, connections, right? Everybody, the hero and Shiro's journey, right? Humble me. it's everything. And and honestly, getting to spend a week with Paulo Coelho in Paris, I I interviewed him for my third book, bruh. Yeah, yeah.
RJ Russell: Wow. I'm learning things I didn't even know.
KC: Yeah. I'll send you the picture of the two of us to get see, yeah, come on. I've always got I got I got I got other arrows in my quiver for you, man. So yeah, so I spent a week with him in Paris and we talked about all kinds of things, his writing process and everything. But that book and that author, who is a literary treasurer, he sold over a hundred million copies of all his books, but the alchemist still is the biggest seller for him. It's actually they use it for freshman inquiry at some universities where you have to read The Alchemist. But I do think it is about your personal legend. Like what do you want to become? What what is the legacy that you want to leave behind? Right. And and just alchemy, human alchemy. I think there's something really powerful about that. So I always drop that off with coaches and, you know, aspiring people. Like it's one of the first things when they ask me what book would you The Alchemist, I don't even h hesitate.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Man. What's one life lesson or or one lesson that sports has taught you that applies to life?
KC: I think one life lesson that sports has taught me or about that is applying to life, honestly, is you're gonna fail forward, you're going to skin your knees, you're going to miss a pass, drop a ball, miss a goal, right? strike out all these different things. But literally, I go all the way back to playing on the asphalt, and you might trip and fall, and you skin your knee. And you could be like, man, right, like in it, like in boo-hooing and everything, or you can get up and keep going, right? And keep
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: moving forward, right? And so I do think you know, Samuel Beckett has this beautiful quote, ever tried, ever failed, no matter. Try again, fail again, fail better. And I think sports has taught me how to fail better, right? And just continue to fail forward. Right. And I think that's one of the things that's really beautiful about it is that you always have this opportunity to get better every day and stack days. And I think there's something really wonderful about the goal of just getting better every day. And, you know, they say film don't lie in sports. Well, your life film doesn't lie either. You can grade yourself every day, go or no go, red or green. Like, did I do the things that I needed to advance my hope, my dream, my aspiration, my goal or not? And always remember you're competing. You're competing. Somebody else wants that same thing you want. Guaranteed. And they might be putting in a little bit more than you, or maybe you did the work that you did that day, especially when you didn't feel like doing it. And those are the wins. Those are big wins. So I think failing forward and learning grit and resilience, sports definitely taught that, that has involved and actually informed and inspired my life.
RJ Russell: Who is a catalyst that more people should know about? Mm-hmm.
KC: Now your people might know, but the the regular folk don't know about him, right? The flow, optimization, right? His whole thing about optimizing one's performance, right? Or
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: one's involvement in an activity, right? Where you're just so engrossed in something that everything else just disappears. We're really great at it when we're kids because we're trying to get better at something, but when we get older, right? It's like We're just like this, this, our heads on a swivel. But if you can learn to be where your feet are, be present on purpose, right? You could actually get in a state of flow more often where you're really so immersed in your activity that nothing else matters. And I do think there's something really powerful about his teachings and his research and all that. So yeah, so I had that at the ready. I didn't even know that was gonna be a question. I had some stuff like here just in case, but I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna show this one. Yeah, so that would be someone that I don't think people know the scientist and researcher behind it. They know about flow, but here's the person and you know he's got a Philly connection, University of Pennsylvania. So yeah,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: so I love that and his connection to Angela Duckworth and that whole crew, right? And so he was a colleague of hers and of Angela's and actually helped her with her grit research too. So Mahali Chicks and Maha
RJ Russell: Yeah. Okay. I got one more for you before before we transition into some other stuff. but what's one thing you hope people say about you fifty years from now?
KC: What's one thing I'd hope you 50 years from now? Like, my god, that guy, low key,
RJ Russell: Sure.
KC: impacted a lot of lives. That would be, as Miss Lane said, a noble endeavor to be this next generation CEO, chief encouragement officer in my own way, and impacted a lot of lives. And never sought any. adulation, you know, congratulations publicly, but if you know you know, kind of a deal. Right? And that people low key would be like, yo, you don't know about the catalysts? Let me tell you about right? And I think that would be something I'd love to be existing fifty years from now for sure, is that I impacted thousands of lives.
RJ Russell: See you. And whenever I do whenever I host my podcast episodes, I usually save this to the end, you know, but I'll kinda throw it in here now and I always I'm always big on giving my people their flowers while they're here, right? and I have to say, like, you know, you've really impacted my life. I think about going all the way back to Ohio State. I did Nike Project Move, you know, working with Nike and things of that nature and getting the opportunity to meet you and then getting to this point. You've always been a consistent person that I could go to. just to have a conversation. and it might not even be about anything crazy, but just having a conversation. and then just that constant motivation and getting to this point, you know, your mentorship has just meant the world to me. and I'm very grateful because then there's plenty of times where I could have been like, you know, I'm gonna stop going for the PhD. I'm just gonna sit on the wayside and then it's talking with you and you know, now I'm I'm getting a masters in in sport performance. I I'm I'm doing this and just Just being there for each other along the way. It's just
KC: Yeah. No, I I think a lot of times, you know, our encouragers show up just when we need them most. And many times it's just you, hey, let me just see what KC's up to, right? And you were at East Carolina then, right? And we were talking, I'm like, yo, I'm back in school. I'm getting my master's my second grad degree in sports psychology. Like, wait, what? What are you what are
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: you doing? Yeah, I gifted it to myself for my 65th birthday. You're like, wait, you're in school? Like what?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And you're like I know in your head you're like, if this dude could do this, what am
RJ Russell: Ha ha ha.
KC: I doing? Like, what am I I need to raise my game, right? If he's willing to do that where he's at in the season of his life, what what am I talking about here? Let me buck up and raise my game here, right? And I think we've had so many really rich conversations that are wide ranging, but I just I've always loved that I know I always kind of poke you. just right and at just the right time. And typically I I've now know like the cadence when you reach out to me, you're questioning things, whatever, you won't say it like directly, but I always know like if he's reaching out to me, he's at a crossroads or he's questioning things or he's
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: really having some tension about something. So I'll sit and I listen and then I always like s what if And then right and
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: then you're like, I didn't even think about it like that and right. And then we go into our wonderful discourse about it. And next thing you know, I really appreciate that conversation, right? Like you just unlocked something. And so I always think that, you know, getting getting a hit of vitamin KC is never a bad thing. It's kinda like getting that that B twelve shot, bruh. It's like it's like getting a B twelve
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: shot. So sometimes you just need that hit like okay, I'm good, like here we go, I'm ready to fight the good fight again. Yeah, so
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: you just energy stores can get depleted, it's real, right? And so
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I think that's one of the things that I know that I am an energy giver, and so I understand that. And and so yeah, so I love that we've had I mean 2019, right? 2019, right? 2019. How about that?
RJ Russell: Mm. Yeah, twenty nineteen. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: Yeah, so that's that's how you know it's real. Right? When someone says, yo, let's stay let's build, let's stay connected. Okay, bet. Right. And then you're like, wait, he was honest, like real about it. So many,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: so many young people are like, I didn't think like you really meant it. I can literally put my email up, thousands of people in there, and maybe three people will contact me because they don't think you really mean it. But I also say, But you're the three I was supposed to mean. You're the three I supposed to connect with because you took the initiative. And reached out.
RJ Russell: Yeah, you know, I always stick with the quote, you know, close mouths don't get fed, you know? So that that's it. So
KC: Speak up. You have to speak up. Nana Carroll, she said that all the time. Close
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: speak close mouth, don't give it. I can't read your mind. Right. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: yes, so no doubt.
RJ Russell: All right, so you know we have to talk some Philly sports. You know, we've we've
KC: Yes.
RJ Russell: bonded, we've bonded over that, you know, for years now. So we just got braun, right? Listen.
KC: Yes. See, but you know I'm already I'm w this is not gonna be a very long conversation because I am in a I'm in a holding pattern. I am not like the the city went crazy like we won a championship. I'm like up I 95, them fools in New York just won. So I'm really still salty about that. I still have
RJ Russell: No.
KC: to navigate all my New York friends about that. And then we get brawn and we're acting like we've already won it, and I'm like, Slow your roll. Let's not get out in front of ourselves. Let's wait and see. So I remain cautiously optimistic. I am not going to get swept up in already winning. I'm not celebrating paper champions. I'm not doing it.
RJ Russell: Yep. No, e exact 'cause it's very easy to the second he he signed, that was it. Everybody was off to the races. Mm-hmm.
KC: The city went crazy. The city went crazy. I was like, y'all stop. Y'all need to stop. No. No, see, you're setting us up. Everybody
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: saving all these videos stuff. they're gonna come for us. I'm like, nope. I'm not getting swept up. I'm just gonna remain cautiously optimistic.
RJ Russell: So with him joining the team, you know, what would be your first priorities from a a culture and a performance
KC: Hmm.
RJ Russell: standpoint?
KC: I think the young guys need to go on a retreat with him. VJ and Maxie, I think and and and Jalen, they could all benefit from Joel just needs to go train with them. Like he needs to go work out with them, right? And learn that discipline. Joel's is, you know, a young guy in an old heads body, right? So he needs to understand how to take great care of his body.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: But those three young guys, VJ, Jalen, and and Maxie, they need to actually learn how to lead. And they could learn how to lead from him. So I think he should create an off-site a retreat that's facilitated by me. I would facilitate it. Absolutely. Now now I could be involved, but I think they need an off-site where they can just learn from him and glean from him. Right, but also talk about their style and the way that they want to approach it so that they don't try to be him, but they can learn the best from him. Right. And cherry pick his best practices and bring that in. But I do think they're gonna need some kind of a team building cultural thing because he's a force by himself.
RJ Russell: Yes.
KC: Culturally, he tilts an organization. And so if you're not ready to get into the Braunverse, right? Because it's its own multiverse. Like it's it's different. And so these young guys are starting, they're climbing, but they're not there yet. And here comes this larger than life, preternatural being. And you're like, so should I be like him? Because it's just going to be so overwhelmingly, you know it's gonna really kind of envelop everything. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I think he would be wise, LeBron, to pull them aside and have like a retreat with them and really discuss it. I think it could be really powerful to do that. So that would be one of the first things I would like suggest to them is to
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: go away. You got time. You don't have to start camp until the end of September. So you got an opportunity to do that. And then I would, you know Take Joel separately and they're talking to him about this is the way that you can have the career from this point that you really should be having, and not the stop-start
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: brilliance. Cause when he's
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: really healthy, he's brilliant. He's brilliant. Joel
RJ Russell: It's a walking three point.
KC: is a Joel's a problem. All caps, bold italics. He's a problem when he's healthy. But when he's not, my God. You're just like Clutching, like, god, what what's gonna happen to him? Right. And you every time he falls, you're like, god, no. It's like it's like, is he gonna get up? And then I started doing the Joel fall meter, right? Like I was like count every game, and I'm like, My
RJ Russell: Is it?
KC: God, this man, you're too big. So LeBron could really help him a lot and help
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: all of them a lot, but I I do think culturally they're going to have to really establish something different. Because he's just LeBron is he really is a force and
RJ Russell: Uh-huh.
KC: I really do think it's going to impact that culture that they already have and so they need to be ready for that.
RJ Russell: Alright, so I got I got one more question for the day, but you know, if s someone listening today wanted to become a positive force in their team, in the workplace, community, you know, what's the first step towards becoming a catalyst in the lives of others?
KC: think the best way to become a catalyst in the lives of others is wanting to know other people's stories and being curious about their stories. And I think the more that we can demystify and debunk and unpack. Each other's stories, especially you as a catalyst. So if I know your story, if I know your story, if I know your story, if I know what care you care about, if I know what inspires you to get out of bed every morning, and I can feed that in little morsels of motivation, dude, we got we got we we doing something. Right? It's on. And I think if you get someone that's on your team, In your organization that wants to behave that way, that's a we not me person, right? Right? That's that person who shows up every day if you shine eyeshine. And it can be, it can put people off because they don't think you're genuine about it. So you gotta be consistent with it. And so if you consistently show up the same way, we not me, if you shine eyeshine, what's your story? What inspires you to come here every day? What's your red rubber ball? What are you chasing? And if I know
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: that, bruh. Magic, right? Alchemy is gonna happen. Flow is gonna happen, right? We're gonna be optimizing our experience collectively. Come on. We're gonna be winning. Chips, chips,
RJ Russell: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: chips. We're gonna have all kinds of chips, right?
RJ Russell: Hmm.
KC: Business chips, sports chips. School chips, right? Whatever it is, we're gonna be winning. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I think that's the best way to be a catalyst for in your organization or your team is someone has to be willing to sacrifice themselves, be the servant leader, and be the person who rallies, who creates the collective energy. I love that collective effervescence, bruh. Like I'm into that. Like collective
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: effervescence. Come on. And you can tell when it's popping. Like you can just
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: tell. You can. And so wouldn't that be wonderful as a catalyst that your goal was collective effervescence, which makes kind of sense, right? Spark catalyst effervescence, all in the fa in that family, right? Of energizing something. So I think that's the goal, right? Is to be someone who really like, what's your story? What's your story? What's your story? And then how do I feed you every day?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: So that you come in like inspired to elevate you. And then collectively we're all raising our game and here we go.
RJ Russell: Thank you so much for coming on the pod. dropping some knowledge on us. Shoot, definitely dropping some knowledge. Listen, listen, y'all getting free game here. You ain't even paying for the game.
KC: Free game. I'm all about that free game. So here we go. Come on. Wait, you can see, but I get sciencey. I'm just I'm just dabbling in some sciencey stuff for y'all, right?
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: We we didn't we didn't get real deep into no science, but if we wanted to, we could. But you see how I
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: did that, right? I just sprinkle, sprinkle.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: Sprinkle, sprinkle, right? For those for your for your learned people that come on your podcast to like listen and stuff like I don't understand. He was talking about you feel me and those kinds of things. And then wait,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: then he dropped collective effervescence. Wait, then he dropped Optimization and Mahali, Chicks and Mahali. Wait, okay, I'm in. So so this is like Disney, a Disney movie, right? It's for everybody. This
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: podcast episode is for everybody. Right? So you'll
RJ Russell: Die.
KC: be able to like promote it that way. Like, hey, we got gravitas and we got from the mud. We got a little bit of everything. It's a very it's a very filly thing. Wait. Wait,
RJ Russell: Yes, yes.
KC: but I will say that I am so impressed with your growth. And I said it before we were started recording. To see you from you know that senior year at Ohio State 2019, your decision to still run another year, right? And do track and go to Eastern Carolina and get your graduate degree and then get sparked with, huh? I think I want to get a PhD in sports psychology and sport performance. I think I want to do that. And I said, okay, well, how will you do that? I'm not sure. And then I helped you with Recos and different things. You were trying to get like in, it didn't work out. But he said, I got this gig at IU. I'm going out there and I'm gonna do research on brain research, right? Neuroscience. And I said, okay. And he said, and I'm just gonna bolster my application. And looky looky, you found a way. Now,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: you could have been upended when you didn't get in.
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: Which is typically what happens. But you're
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: hard-headed enough to hang in there.
RJ Russell: Ha ha.
KC: Which is a gift, right? That's your grit, that's your resilience that you learn from sport. Right? You learned how to hang in there, right? When things aren't seemingly working. I'm not hitting my PR, this isn't happening yet. I'm gonna trust and believe hard work never goes unrewarded. And now here you are in a PhD program at IU. So I think it's a great, great lesson for a lot of young people that it's not microwavable. It's not. And no
RJ Russell: Yep. Mm mm.
KC: matter how much you're seeing on socials that people are highlighting this and showing that and maxing this and that, right? It's really not the true essence of the way things play out. You gotta work hard. You
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: do. You don't, it's there's no getting around hard work. And you have to be able to deal with when things don't go your way. Can you keep pushing forward, failing forward? And so good on you to not quit on it and to be hard headed enough. And it's going to pay dividends for the clients and the teams and the people that you work with because you're going to be able to speak from a place of knowing. You're not just going to be clinical in your practice, you're going to be applied. And I think that's really gonna be the power of what you bring because you've you've you towed the line, right? When you gotta go do them damn repeat 300s, right? Like you you know
RJ Russell: Yep. I don't miss that. I don't miss that.
KC: like but you've had to toe the line, like you know, right? Like, damn, I don't know about today. Do I really wanna go to practice today? I saw what the workout is. I here we go. Or I saw what I my reading list, what I had to read for school. And here we go. Cause it's gonna be worth it. And so good on you, man. Like honestly, RJ. Like really, I think the story you're going to tell to your students, to your clients, to your organizations and teams you're gonna work with is going to be inspiring. So keep going, bruh. Keep going.
RJ Russell: Thank you. Thank you. Listeners, this episode is for the catalysts out there, for the the hard heads, for you know anybody who's just willing to, you know, keep pushing, chasing, and and making change wherever they go. so thank you again, listeners, for listening and have a great day.
KC: Absolutely. Peace and play. Be well.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I wasn't looking for glory and personal accolades. If you shine, I shine was the way I always approached it. Let me get you a pass. Let me make sure you get a bucket. Let me make sure you get a touchdown. Hey, I'll block for you. Hey, I'll get this for you. And so they love that I was that generous athlete. So so this is like Disney, a Disney movie, right? It's for everybody. This
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: podcast episode is for everybody. Right?
RJ Russell: Die.
KC: I'll push through on those days where my mood doesn't match my goals and aspirations, right? Those are the days, right, where you build your grit and resilience. But you also learn about yourself. And my first year, what happened was my coach remembered I spoke Serbian and Vladi Divat was having a game and he didn't like that he was killing us. So he wanted to distract him. So he literally in the middle of the competitive crucible, he turns to me and says, Start insulting that guy and his language, Carol. I know you speak it. I'm like, Coach, that man's seven feet tall. Why would I do that? Carol, Carol, be a team player, help us out.
BigTeamIU: for all you need. save You saved me, you rescued me
RJ Russell: welcome to United with Big Team at Indian University's podcast on student athlete mental health. I'm your host, RJ Russell, second year PhD student in the counseling psychology program with the concentration in sport and performance psychology at Indian University. I'm excited about today's episode. We're gonna be talking with Kevin Carroll about being a positive force, creating culture, and working with athletes. Thank you for coming on, Casey. How are you doing today?
KC: Absolutely RJ. We we got history, so it's really cool to hear your little intro and hear your your your elevated voice and presence. I'm like, okay, this isn't that that university I think I met you what your sophomore year? Were you in your s were your senior were you a senior at at Ohio State then? It was your s you were a senior year. It was your last year. Yeah, yeah.
RJ Russell: senior senior year. It was right right to the right at the end. Senior. Senior was my last year. Yep.
KC: So it's it's really to see this evolution of you. is really kinda cool. So I'm excited to to chop it up with you today.
RJ Russell: Yep, so and and getting to say PhD student now, that's always fun.
KC: Yeah, how about that? Yes, yes, yes Yes, and that has
RJ Russell: So
KC: not been an easy road for sure. We all know.
RJ Russell: No. So it it's been it's been nice to to get to this point for sure. but in honor of our national champion, Indiana Hoosiers football team, we have a unique way of introducing our guest. So we're gonna introduce KC with the help of Coach Signetti. So coach, let's get it started. So Casey, if the audience Googled you, what would come up in the search?
KC: Let's see. For sure, instigator of inspiration. I think that's what they would find, for sure. And I think Because I'm low-key about what I do, it's a if you know you know kind of thing. You gotta be willing to kind of go down the rabbit hole to find things about me because it's just the way that I operate. I love being in the shadows and just doing the work and being applied in my practice and my efforts and as one of my friends says, my ministry and the work that I do with young people and athletes and business people. But I think a big part of it is you have to be willing and be curious to find out. about me. I think that's
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: one of the key things. But but if you're curious, you're gonna be like, snap, snap, what? Wait, what?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: Did that just say that? So I think that's the thing that I love when people are discovering things about me. Like over time, they go, yo, I didn't know that. Like you never brought that
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: up. I'm like, exactly. I'd rather you discover it.
RJ Russell: Yeah. And that and that's it. Like, okay, so but before we dive in, I'd love to go back to the beginning, right? 'Cause you've you've had a a path that isn't one that many of could could've predicted, right? So walk us through the journey, you know, think about okay, Air Force, athletic trainer at Saint Joe's, athletic trainer with the Sixers, Nike Catalyst, author speaker, and just overall impacting athletes, you know, on the highest levels. You know, what are the connecting threads that tie all those chapters together?
KC: I think well the connecting thread is play and a ball saving my life. I really do talk about play a lot and how play creates this wonderful kind of connection, but also a place of belonging and also even more importantly where you feel seen. For me it was really important the playground in my grandparents' neighborhood. was the first place I felt seen and felt connected. And I had a childhood that was just filled with abandonment and addiction, upheaval and uncertainty, dysfunction, disappointment. It was just a lot of upheaval throughout my entire childhood until my grandparents rescued us from a really bad situation. My mom had abandoned me and my two brothers and left us in a trailer for five days and we were miles away from Philly.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And I remember my grandfather's phone number And I had a stranger call my grandfather. And my grandfather orchestrated us getting on a bus eight, six, and three years old by ourselves, and the bus driver watching over us and getting us back to Philadelphia, and my grandparents making the decision that my mom was not getting us back. And they paid the bus driver and they took us in and they said, We're gonna raise you as best we can. We'll give you food to eat, a roof over your heads, but you're gonna have to raise yourself. So imagine you hear that at six years old, and my response
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: was pop-up. There's a playground near your house?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And he goes, Yeah. I said, I just need to run. That was my response. That was my way of coping, was movement. And so I went up to the playground. There's a group of kids up there. This is the Cliff Notes version. A group of kids up there balling, and they see me by myself and they say, Hey, you want to come join us? And so I go over there. You you know how this works in Philly. If you get a nickname, it sticks. So I got a nickname on that day, Little Fast Kid. And so that was the first time I felt seen, six years old. And I associated it with a ball and I went, wait, if this ball can help me do this, where people see me, I'ma stay around it. And so I just made a decision I don't think I ever verbalized it to anyone. It was an internal one that I'm gonna keep a ball with me no matter what. And I'm gonna just stay around it. And so I just threw myself headlong into sports. And I played sports not for trophies or medals, first place. It was always for belonging. It was always for connection. It was always for community. I loved being on teams and that unlocked everything for me because I learned, you know, discipline, goal setting, had great coaches, people
RJ Russell: Sorry.
KC: that saw that I had this innate gift, right, of understanding games and I was quick. So hey, play on this team. We're gonna go play this neighborhood. Hey, come with us. We're gonna and I was playing with the older kids when I was six and seven and eight years old.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And my friends were like, how come they keep asking? I I don't know. And then they explained to me later, you get it. So when you started to understand that you're seeing sports and play from a different thing, but it was the reason I was doing it. I wasn't looking for glory and personal accolades. If you shine, I shine was the way I always approached it. Let me get you a pass. Let me make sure you get a bucket. Let me make sure you get a touchdown. Hey, I'll block for you. Hey, I'll get this for you. And so they love that I was that generous athlete. And I think that has served me well my entire life, right? To always helping others feel seen and engaged in things. And so sports became my thing Books became my thing. The public library was my other safe place as a kid. And we had a public library just blocks away from the neighborhood that I grew up in, just outside of Philly. And so I went there on a regular basis. And so the librarians embraced me because they saw I would go there by myself. So they would leave books. Before there was an Amazon recommends, bruh, they had stuff on the shelf for me at the front desk with my name on it. So I'd go up there, grab them, and just spent hours in the library studying. So I really loved school and I was really good with. Words. And I always had to honor her any podcast or any conversation. Miss Rock, my third grade teacher, she introduced me to a thesaurus. And I became this like wordsmith, right? This verbal gymnast. I had all kind of words that I could pull as a nine-year-old, right? Pugilistic,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: cacophony, bedlam, right? I was bringing diminutive. That was my go-to if you call me short. I was coming for your neck. Right? Diminutive,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: right? I'm not short, I'm diminutive. Right. But she was so remarkable in that she saw I had a way with my studies,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: and she knew that I was curious. So she said, Here, look at this book. It's called a thesaurus. It's filled with words. I'm like, What? Leafing through, find a new word, find a new word. So I was a really good student too. And then my best friend's mom. Here, actually, I always love to show this. Miss Lane, so this is my best friend's mom. Y'all can see that.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: So Miss Lane, I meet her at nine years old. And Miss Lane becomes basically my mom. But I affectionately call her my CEO, my chief encouragement officer of my hopes, my dreams, my aspirations, my goals. Like she unlocked everything. She was a cheat code before it was even a word, right? She was the person who gave me all that the life hacks, right? She gave she was my wayfinder. She was brilliant. Philadelphia Public School teacher for thirty-two years, but my life teacher. And sh they lived right across the street from my grandparents' house. So I would go to their house every day and just hang out with Miss Lane. I was best friends with her son, but I was even closer to Miss Lane. And so
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: she would always challenge me with, What are your dreams? What are your goals? What are your aspirations? And I would tell her this or that or this. She'd say, Okay, don't talk about it, be about it.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: There's lots of talkers, Kevin, and very few doers. Which one are you? So imagine
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: learning accountability at nine, 10, 11 years old. So you put this whole equation together. I was raised by drug dealers and users, war veterans and workers, other kids' parents, custodians, librarians, food service workers, all these people I'm this wonderful mosaic of. And
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I figured out how to rise above my suffering and circumstances and not let my circumstances dictate my destiny. So I end up to the things you were unpacking before I went into my origin story. I got a bachelor's degree in speech communication, sports medicine. I got a master's degree in health education. Got a second graduate degree recently in sports psychology. Spent 10 years in the Air Force as a language translator where I learned five languages. I speak Serbian, Croatian, Russian, German, Czech. Dropped Spanish after five minutes in high school, just an FYI for y'all, just so you know
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: that I was a bit of a knucklehead back in the day, too. And so I thought languages were stupid. Like I'm like, but who needs this? Like, what
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: am I gonna do with you know Spanish, right? But I had a gift. I like I still returned. That five estusana en casa no la casina, donde está la sala, no la casina, and I walked out of class. So I had ability.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: The military gives you a like this whole kind of series of tests to see if you have a hidden talent. Lo and behold, I did, right? But they send me to school for cerebral creation and check. I'm like, what am I gonna do with these languages? But they end up coming in handy. Athletic trainer, leave the Air Force after 10 years, move back to Philly. High school, two high schools in the Philly area, then the Saint Joe's University, and then the Sixers, which was a crazy way that that happened, cause the Sixers used to practice at Saint Joe's. So it's Mamba Day. So when you when you release this, I don't know, but people should know it's eight twenty four that we're recording this. And so it is Mamba
RJ Russell: Yes.
KC: Day, Kobe Bryant Day, and I babysat him when he was thirteen. So people are always like, What? I'm like, yeah, I babysat him when he was 13. I stayed cool with him all through high school. It's actually pretty cool that Aspen Project Play actually posted the video of me interviewing him in 2018 as part of their play summit. And we talked about our relationship. And one of the things that was really cool is I behaved like Miss Lane with him. I want nothing from you. I want only the best for you. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I didn't Like have these aspirations. I'm gonna stay connected to this kid, he's gonna become a big deal. Bruh, how can I help you? How can I help you be better?
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: And I think one of the things that you happen to ask me, like, I'd love to hear like a really good Kobe story. But here's the one that nobody really knows is
RJ Russell: Sure.
KC: that I used to watch Bean, that's what we called him in Philly, Bean and Dawn Staley run lunchtime basketball together at St. Joe's. Two icons, bruh. Two icons.
RJ Russell: Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: And the best part, see, you didn't know that story. That's why your reaction is so beautiful and genuine.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Yes, bruh. They would come in, the two of them would show up at lunchtime ball, and basically we got next, and ain't nobody taking us off the court. Yes. So I took care of Dawn.
RJ Russell: Yeah, 'cause the two of those
KC: I took care of Dawn when she was playing still. Dawn and I are still cool to this day. And so shout out Dawn Staley, icon, right? Just yeah, game changer in many, many ways. But I No dog from back in the day, right? And you know, one thing that people understand, and RJ, I know you understand, is Philly basketball is really, really this tight-knit community. It's a really remarkable community, how close everybody is, and how everybody is cool with each other that way, right? If you're part of that community, it's lifelong, right? And so I think there's something really magical about being able to see someone when they're a zero trying to be a one, Kobe Bean Bryant, right? He was just starting out. His high school team was not great his first two years. And he kept working and pulled everybody along with him. And to witness that and to watch that and to play a small part in his success, yeah, I'm very honored that I got to do that. And for him to always stay cool with me all these years and stuff, right up to his passing. We were always very, very cool. And I just think there's something really magical about when you are not being transactional with someone, you're trying to be transformational. And he appreciated that. And I think that's why we could just hit the ground. Like we were summer camp friends, right? Literally it was summer camp where I babysat him. But we that interview, if you watch it, you have the link so you can share it with folks. But you can see, like, there's like, whoa, my wife said he's just 13 with you. He's not this multi-championship MVP scoring champion. He's just 13 with you, just talking. I'm like, yeah, we're just chopping it up, right? And there's a great moment because we filly hijack the stage. They try to like rap. Wrap it up, rap and we both like, they
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: trying to tell us to stop? Man, we Philly hijacking this, right? This John.
RJ Russell: Ha.
KC: Right. And wait, and Coby said, John, I ain't heard that in a minute, right? So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the 76ers practiced out of fill out of St. Joe's, and I got to help out with them when my student athletes were at school. And Coach Lucas was the head coach then. The athletic trainer that was there was going back to the Pistons, Mike Abdenauer, and Coach Lucas approached me about becoming the head athletic trainer for the Sixers, and I actually said no. I said, I don't really want that job. I know what's entailed.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I know it's not an easy job. You travel a lot. I'm a single dad. I'm raising my boys. I don't really want that job. And he said, it will change you and your family's life. And so I agreed to get that job after five years of getting out of the military and just being an athletic trainer for five years. Unheard of. Right, that you would get the head athletic trainer job. And I was a third black athletic trainer in the history of the NBA and with the Sixers. And it was Iverson, I was with Iverson his rookie year, Jerry Stackhouse his rookie year. Yeah. So I got to see some
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: iconic moments there. I was on the bench when Iverson crossed Jordan. And my first year, what happened was my coach remembered I spoke Serbian and Vladi Divat was having a game and he didn't like that he was killing us. So he wanted to distract him. So he literally in the middle of the competitive crucible, he turns to me and says, Start insulting that guy and his language, Carol. I know you speak it. I'm like, Coach, that man's seven feet tall. Why would I do that? Carol, Carol, be a team player, help us out. I'm trying to say this time out. Just say something about his mom or dad or sister or brother when he runs by the bench. So I'm like, Coach, like he says, be a team player, Carol, help us out. So you get two weeks of obscenities training in the military. It is like the it's like the pinnacle moment of your training. They wait till the very end, right? Obscenity is weak, right? It's like right. And so you learn every bad thing you could possibly say to somebody, right? Like you, it's like gutter, mud stuff, man. Like you coming for people's necks. And so I'm like saying, Your mom, your dad, your sister, your brother to Vlade, fifth time. He walks towards our best of games going on, and he goes, Who's insulting my family over here in Serbia? And the coach pulls. Points at me goes, that little guy right there. And Father goes, what? I double-day. He's like, what? Rest of the game, ain't making no shots, just staring at me every time he runs by the bench. The game ends. He comes into our locker room looking for me. And I'm like, no, this can't be good.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And the most unexpected thing happens. He starts laughing and he goes, I never thought I'd meet a black guy that could speak Serbian like
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: that. And like just like it's as if you grew up in my neighborhood.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: He said, hey, the Yugoslavia national basketball team just qualified for the Olympic Games in Atlanta in 1996. We need a sports medicine liaison and a translator. You're perfect. So I joined the Yugoslavia national basketball team for the 96 Olympic Games as their sports medicine liaison and translator. The NBA thought it was like quite an unusual story, this little black guy from Philly. So they did
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: a feature on me on NBA Inside Stuff, back in the day show for your listeners and viewers that might not know, you can Google that, Google that. And someone from Nike saw it. Saw the story and they
RJ Russell: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: contact me and that someone was Howard White. Howard White is the same person who convinced Michael Jordan to sign with Nike. And
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Howard White reaches out to me and says hey I've done my homework on you, saw this feature about you, know you're a single dad I know Coach Lucas. We played at Maryland together. He's told me all these great things about you. Wondering if you would be willing to take a risk and leave the 76ers and move to Portland, Oregon, and we're gonna create a job for you.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: We think we could do magic together with you. You're great innovation, great energy, you're curious. We think it could be really valuable for our company. And so I had to sit down with my two sons. They were real quick to say, if we get free gear, dad, we in. And so, yes,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: we do. And so we I left the 76ers and I remember they said, What a big mistake you're making. We're gonna be this or that or this. And I said, Yeah, but I wanna be the dad that I didn't have. I wanna be present. And so
RJ Russell: Exactly. Yeah.
KC: I left the Sixers after two seasons in 1997. I moved out here to Portland, Oregon, where I still live, and I worked at Nike for seven years. And my official title at Nike was Catalyst with the K because of Kevin. And so they actually created a position for me there and I was the spark, hence the catalyst,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: right? An excitatory agent that speeds up or changes the process. I was the person who basically was the bridge builder. What I really did, RJ, was recreate Preston Playground. A place that was inviting, welcoming, inclusive, a place where everybody felt seen and they felt like they belonged. And I got a chance to work all over the company. I worked with the top designer there, Tinker Hatfield. I worked in internal communications. They were basically putting me in places where they felt it needed an injection of energy and innovation and curiosity. Phil Knight called me the mayor of Nike. And so after one of my capers, I did these creative capers on campus. So Bill Barman, you were a track runner, so you'll know Bill Barman, Waffle Out Waffle Outsole, Waffle Iron, you know, the infamous mythical story about that. Which is real that he did that, right? With rubber and a waffle iron and making the outsole for his track athletes at the University of Oregon. So he passed away and we had a celebration of life. And I said, Wouldn't it be great if everyone got a waffle when they went into
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the celebration? So I organized that because I was cool with the food service team and the different people there and the chefs. And so we had waffles for everybody. And Phil Knight found out that I did it and asked to meet me. He asked me why I did it. I said, Well, you created a place where a me could be celebrated.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Someone who loves sport like I do. And I can come to work every day and think about the thing that gets me out of bed in the morning that inspires me. He said, Why wouldn't
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: I want to show my gratitude to someone who's the co-founder of this place? He says, Huh. He said, Well, you're kind of like the mayor here, if you could pull that off. So I should be meeting the mayor. And so
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: he called me the mayor of Nike from that point, and I had a standing meeting with Phil Knight. For two years, a monthly meeting, and I was not an executive or a senior leader within the company. He saw that I had influence without title. And I spent those
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: seven years there and then wrote a a book. ESPN signs me to a book deal, CAA becomes my talent agent, Nikes travel me around the world to speak on behalf of the power of sport. And one thing leads to another, and I'm like, I don't know if I should stay. I've got these opportunities
RJ Russell: Hmm.
KC: outside of here. I'd have more freedom. Freedom is my thing. If I have more freedom, I could be more productive, but I love it here. And Phil Knight told me, I don't let talent leave here. But
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: we would be selfish to keep you. And we'll be watching. And so I left in 2004 and I've been on my own now. This is my 22nd year. On my own, author speaker, instigator of inspiration. Google me. So so there you so
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: here we are. Yeah.
RJ Russell: Man, you you so I
KC: It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot to unpack, man. Right and and and so don't let my youthful energy fool you, right? I want you to I want you to see and feel my energy before you know my age. So my birthday's coming up and I'll be sixty eight. So I always tell people because people try to do the math, like, wait a minute, that's a lot of stuff he packed in in that short amount of time. How did he do all that? Yeah. So people start doing the math. The math ain't math in the math. So that I had to always like dis dispel that myth like no dude I've seen some things. I've been on the planet for a minute now.
RJ Russell: Man. You know, you've you spent your your career helping shape environments, teams, cultures, you know. So when you walk into, you know, a new team, organization, locker room, what's the first thing you evaluate about the culture?
KC: I I watch and listen more than I speak. And I'll do that for a length of time so that I can kind of just observe the dynamic that's going on. there's this great study about high fives, right? I think they did it with the Golden State Warriors. Are you familiar with that? The NBA touch study? Yeah, yeah, the NBA touch study. I'll send it to you. But it's they actually literally took a whole season and actually evaluate how many times they touch. Hug, dap, whatever, and they had won the championship that year. And
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: so they went back and looked at what was the telling thing and they said their connection. Genuine connection. And so I think that's one of the first things I look for is right, how connected are you? And touch is one of the highest, quickest things you can pay attention to, right? Is just how much you dapen up each other, right? In a genuine
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: way. Right? Not in some transactional way, but in a transformative way. And I really love kind of being in this observation mode where people are like, hey, don't you have nah, I'm good. I'm just kind of like laying in the cut. I'm watching right now and I'll watch for a while and then drop a little pearl, drop a little insight, drop a little thing. But I think culture, because it's such a dynamic thing, you have to actually allow yourself time to observe it. And every culture is different. And I think that curiosity serves me well to come in with this curiosity that I don't think every culture is cookie cutter and the same thing. I don't want the same approach. But the first thing I will always do is come in with a level of curiosity and then want to discover
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: the way that you're you've formed and shaped your culture. And you know, the leader is a loud part of the culture and they tell you a lot. And so I'm not getting invited to spend time with any organization or team. without the leader understanding me. And I think that's
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: a key piece that I'm not for everybody. And I get that and I understand that. And so I you gotta feel my energy and be a person that's like doesn't feel like, he's gonna try to usurp energy from me or no, I'm an additive. But every leader doesn't
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: see that, right? Because most there's a lot of leaders in sports. My message is my message and I only want my voice to be heard. I don't want anybody else who could potentially Hijack my message.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And so meeting leaders that get that that's not my jam, that's not my plan. Dude, I don't have time to be running around trying to hijack your message. I'm trying to be here to help. But there's a lot
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: of, you know, there's a lot of paranoia in sports
RJ Russell: Huh?
KC: and in locker rooms. And so I think a big part of what I've learned is if I get invited, you already kind of feel what I'm about and you understand that. And also when you invite me to go deeper into your organization to, hey, let me know, like basically do a culture audit that I'm going to sit back, lay back and watch. And then I'm gonna give you my observations. But I think curiosity, you know, going in and then paying attention to connection and the bet and the way that it connect and verb, like the words that they're using, I think the language is really important also. So having that curiosity about connection and language that they're using and leadership, right, is your staff a direct reflection of you.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: Cause look, your staff is going to either be a direct reflection or they're going to create their subcultures in their position rooms, let's say in football, right? They will. And now you've got three, four different messages, five, six, seven, whatever messages going around. And there's a lot of confusion. So I think that's one thing that I really have been mindful of when I go into organizations is just have a level of curiosity and openness, but pay attention to the tells.
RJ Russell: And I think one thing that I've always remired about you is also how you show up, you know, so authentically as yourself, you know, in the spaces that you've been in and how that's opened so many doors for you. So how has being unapologetically Kevin Carroll helped you build those relationships and really, you know, work with athletes in those, you know, elite sport environments?
KC: It's interesting because I think showing up fully as you and having the confidence, it takes time. Like I I think there's a lot of young people who think, well, they gotta love me for me, but yo, dude, you don't even know who you are yet. Like you trying to figure out who you are. So why not do that work first? And figure out who you are and then consistently show up that way and then right start to be on a little bit of a flex about who you are and what you're trying to do and and all that. I think it's really important that the things that have inv allowed me to go into spaces where I can just be me is Once again, leaders recognizing. So I'm getting invited. I'm not pitching you anymore. I'm not forcing myself on you. Those days are way past me. And I really wasn't that way in the beginning anyway. When I got my gigs, you know, head athletic trainer at this high school or this high school or St. Joe's, I was being
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: where my feet are. Like I was happy there and it was gonna be the place that I was gonna be. And I wasn't thinking about, this is gonna set me up for No, I wasn't thinking about that. How can I do the best job here? So that when I'm not in rooms, people are talking about me in a favorable way. So
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I really started to understand the importance of doing a great job and really pursuing excellence on a regular basis and modeling that and embodying that on the regular. So that people saw that, like, you you're about it. Like you you do this, you do that, you do the little things, like you're not above anything, but I do think the military helped me understand that, right? So you learned in the
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: military, when you're finished your job, find another job.
RJ Russell: Okay.
KC: When you're finished your job, find another job. Find something else to do. Don't be just standing around. And
RJ Russell: Yeah. He worked. Mm-hmm.
KC: so I think that that mindset and that attitude has served me well. And it also is part of my brand, if you will, the way I show up. How can I be of service? How can I help? I think I am a servant leader. I do think that, but that's also the athletic trainer in me, right? That's what you learn, right? To be of service. How do you support people? How do I help you return to play? How am I helping you get back in the game? Right. And so all those things I think have served me well in these environments to have a level of humility. To be someone who wants to be supportive and how can we win, right? If you shine, I shine, right? We not me, any of those things, I've always kind of embodied that because I understand that all the way back to the playground. Because if I can keep you engaged, you would stay longer. So, how do I always make sure you're first? How do I ask you, how are you doing? What's going on with you? What's what's your story today? Right. And so I think there's something really powerful about helping people feel seen.
RJ Russell: Okay.
KC: And if that's part of my brand, right? The way that I show up authentically and people know that, yo, Casey, you're so good about staying in touch. Well, I learned that. Way, way, way, way back. Like, yo, you come into the playground today, you know, hollering at somebody from the street, yo, you go, we
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: get ready to run, okay? We need one, right? We're short, right? I I'll
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: be right there. I mean, so just always checking on people and always reaching out to people, and I'm still that way. And so I think when you learn a behavior and it has served you well, you're gonna continue that behavior. And so if that is my authentic self always wanting to connect. always wanted to build relationships authentically and genuinely and not be transactional, then yeah, it would serve me well. Cause I'm well versed in it, right? I have a level of mastery in it over time, right? That I didn't know I was doing that. It was really out of necessity. And then it just became behavior that I do on a regular. So I do think there's something really beautiful about when people say, Yeah, you're always the same guy. Every day. I'm like, thank you. That's what I hope to be, right? And even when you have challenging days, right, I know that I need to show up a certain way for my work and what I do. Right, because you might be having a rough day and you might be looking to me. Okay, so then how can I get myself right right and ready to fight the good fight on behalf of, you know, what I deem is the important things that I do on the daily. So yeah, I do think authenticity takes time. for someone to develop it and to figure out who they are. And I think a lot of times folks are trying to model themselves after other people, but why don't you just cherry pick from what you think this person has or that person with the best of this, the best of that, and then build this mosaic, right? This beautiful kind of pieces of you, puzzle of you, of all those people that you want to, and then make it your own. I think that's the key thing around, you know, truly, you know, your authentic self. But it takes time, so you have to have a level of patience. Just be patient. It'll all play out. But you know, RJ, I think one of the things you need to be thinking about, now that you're in this place, you're doing your PhD,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: is yes, there is this wonderful thing of having that the gravitas, right? And all of that. But what does it really mean truly to you at your core? Like, why am I actually doing this? Because that's not for the faint at heart. It's a long process. And people lose their energy enthusiasm because it takes so long.
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: And so if it's really not what you're about, people fall off. Right?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And so that's where you start to really start to evaluate. I am if this is me at my core. I'll push through on those days where my mood doesn't match my goals and aspirations, right? Those are the days, right, where you build your grit and resilience. But you also learn about yourself. Does this really matter to me? Is this really important? Man, I'm tired. I had a long day, and then I gotta get up at four, so I can be in the building by six, right? As an athletic trainer or someone who's a consulting, and I'm like, man, but hey, my mood's not matching my intention. But this is a good day then. Cause if I can get my ass up and get to that facility,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I'm like, okay, let's go, right? Because I know I'm winning. Cause other people said, you know what? I'll get in a little late. They really didn't say I had to be there at that time. Or they didn't say I had to do that work. Or that I needed to spend that extra time. So I just think you're at a place as you're going through your PhD, there's plenty of times that you could say, you know what? I'm take this radical sabbatical and set this aside, not do it for a little bit, right? Or let me buck up and get after this. But that's
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: about you and who at your core. And so when you talk about your true authentic self, what's at your core?
RJ Russell: I'm gonna hit you with some some rapid fire questions that I have. So the first one is what's one book you feel like every coach should read?
KC: The Alchemist. Paulo Coelho. Gotta read that one. Gotta
RJ Russell: Yeah. Yeah.
KC: read that one. That's about personal legend. It's about human alchemy, right? It's about making magic to you know, connections, right? Everybody, the hero and Shiro's journey, right? Humble me. it's everything. And and honestly, getting to spend a week with Paulo Coelho in Paris, I I interviewed him for my third book, bruh. Yeah, yeah.
RJ Russell: Wow. I'm learning things I didn't even know.
KC: Yeah. I'll send you the picture of the two of us to get see, yeah, come on. I've always got I got I got I got other arrows in my quiver for you, man. So yeah, so I spent a week with him in Paris and we talked about all kinds of things, his writing process and everything. But that book and that author, who is a literary treasurer, he sold over a hundred million copies of all his books, but the alchemist still is the biggest seller for him. It's actually they use it for freshman inquiry at some universities where you have to read The Alchemist. But I do think it is about your personal legend. Like what do you want to become? What what is the legacy that you want to leave behind? Right. And and just alchemy, human alchemy. I think there's something really powerful about that. So I always drop that off with coaches and, you know, aspiring people. Like it's one of the first things when they ask me what book would you The Alchemist, I don't even h hesitate.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Man. What's one life lesson or or one lesson that sports has taught you that applies to life?
KC: I think one life lesson that sports has taught me or about that is applying to life, honestly, is you're gonna fail forward, you're going to skin your knees, you're going to miss a pass, drop a ball, miss a goal, right? strike out all these different things. But literally, I go all the way back to playing on the asphalt, and you might trip and fall, and you skin your knee. And you could be like, man, right, like in it, like in boo-hooing and everything, or you can get up and keep going, right? And keep
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: moving forward, right? And so I do think you know, Samuel Beckett has this beautiful quote, ever tried, ever failed, no matter. Try again, fail again, fail better. And I think sports has taught me how to fail better, right? And just continue to fail forward. Right. And I think that's one of the things that's really beautiful about it is that you always have this opportunity to get better every day and stack days. And I think there's something really wonderful about the goal of just getting better every day. And, you know, they say film don't lie in sports. Well, your life film doesn't lie either. You can grade yourself every day, go or no go, red or green. Like, did I do the things that I needed to advance my hope, my dream, my aspiration, my goal or not? And always remember you're competing. You're competing. Somebody else wants that same thing you want. Guaranteed. And they might be putting in a little bit more than you, or maybe you did the work that you did that day, especially when you didn't feel like doing it. And those are the wins. Those are big wins. So I think failing forward and learning grit and resilience, sports definitely taught that, that has involved and actually informed and inspired my life.
RJ Russell: Who is a catalyst that more people should know about? Mm-hmm.
KC: Now your people might know, but the the regular folk don't know about him, right? The flow, optimization, right? His whole thing about optimizing one's performance, right? Or
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: one's involvement in an activity, right? Where you're just so engrossed in something that everything else just disappears. We're really great at it when we're kids because we're trying to get better at something, but when we get older, right? It's like We're just like this, this, our heads on a swivel. But if you can learn to be where your feet are, be present on purpose, right? You could actually get in a state of flow more often where you're really so immersed in your activity that nothing else matters. And I do think there's something really powerful about his teachings and his research and all that. So yeah, so I had that at the ready. I didn't even know that was gonna be a question. I had some stuff like here just in case, but I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna show this one. Yeah, so that would be someone that I don't think people know the scientist and researcher behind it. They know about flow, but here's the person and you know he's got a Philly connection, University of Pennsylvania. So yeah,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: so I love that and his connection to Angela Duckworth and that whole crew, right? And so he was a colleague of hers and of Angela's and actually helped her with her grit research too. So Mahali Chicks and Maha
RJ Russell: Yeah. Okay. I got one more for you before before we transition into some other stuff. but what's one thing you hope people say about you fifty years from now?
KC: What's one thing I'd hope you 50 years from now? Like, my god, that guy, low key,
RJ Russell: Sure.
KC: impacted a lot of lives. That would be, as Miss Lane said, a noble endeavor to be this next generation CEO, chief encouragement officer in my own way, and impacted a lot of lives. And never sought any. adulation, you know, congratulations publicly, but if you know you know, kind of a deal. Right? And that people low key would be like, yo, you don't know about the catalysts? Let me tell you about right? And I think that would be something I'd love to be existing fifty years from now for sure, is that I impacted thousands of lives.
RJ Russell: See you. And whenever I do whenever I host my podcast episodes, I usually save this to the end, you know, but I'll kinda throw it in here now and I always I'm always big on giving my people their flowers while they're here, right? and I have to say, like, you know, you've really impacted my life. I think about going all the way back to Ohio State. I did Nike Project Move, you know, working with Nike and things of that nature and getting the opportunity to meet you and then getting to this point. You've always been a consistent person that I could go to. just to have a conversation. and it might not even be about anything crazy, but just having a conversation. and then just that constant motivation and getting to this point, you know, your mentorship has just meant the world to me. and I'm very grateful because then there's plenty of times where I could have been like, you know, I'm gonna stop going for the PhD. I'm just gonna sit on the wayside and then it's talking with you and you know, now I'm I'm getting a masters in in sport performance. I I'm I'm doing this and just Just being there for each other along the way. It's just
KC: Yeah. No, I I think a lot of times, you know, our encouragers show up just when we need them most. And many times it's just you, hey, let me just see what KC's up to, right? And you were at East Carolina then, right? And we were talking, I'm like, yo, I'm back in school. I'm getting my master's my second grad degree in sports psychology. Like, wait, what? What are you what are
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: you doing? Yeah, I gifted it to myself for my 65th birthday. You're like, wait, you're in school? Like what?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: And you're like I know in your head you're like, if this dude could do this, what am
RJ Russell: Ha ha ha.
KC: I doing? Like, what am I I need to raise my game, right? If he's willing to do that where he's at in the season of his life, what what am I talking about here? Let me buck up and raise my game here, right? And I think we've had so many really rich conversations that are wide ranging, but I just I've always loved that I know I always kind of poke you. just right and at just the right time. And typically I I've now know like the cadence when you reach out to me, you're questioning things, whatever, you won't say it like directly, but I always know like if he's reaching out to me, he's at a crossroads or he's questioning things or he's
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: really having some tension about something. So I'll sit and I listen and then I always like s what if And then right and
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: then you're like, I didn't even think about it like that and right. And then we go into our wonderful discourse about it. And next thing you know, I really appreciate that conversation, right? Like you just unlocked something. And so I always think that, you know, getting getting a hit of vitamin KC is never a bad thing. It's kinda like getting that that B twelve shot, bruh. It's like it's like getting a B twelve
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: shot. So sometimes you just need that hit like okay, I'm good, like here we go, I'm ready to fight the good fight again. Yeah, so
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: you just energy stores can get depleted, it's real, right? And so
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: I think that's one of the things that I know that I am an energy giver, and so I understand that. And and so yeah, so I love that we've had I mean 2019, right? 2019, right? 2019. How about that?
RJ Russell: Mm. Yeah, twenty nineteen. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: Yeah, so that's that's how you know it's real. Right? When someone says, yo, let's stay let's build, let's stay connected. Okay, bet. Right. And then you're like, wait, he was honest, like real about it. So many,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: so many young people are like, I didn't think like you really meant it. I can literally put my email up, thousands of people in there, and maybe three people will contact me because they don't think you really mean it. But I also say, But you're the three I was supposed to mean. You're the three I supposed to connect with because you took the initiative. And reached out.
RJ Russell: Yeah, you know, I always stick with the quote, you know, close mouths don't get fed, you know? So that that's it. So
KC: Speak up. You have to speak up. Nana Carroll, she said that all the time. Close
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: speak close mouth, don't give it. I can't read your mind. Right. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: yes, so no doubt.
RJ Russell: All right, so you know we have to talk some Philly sports. You know, we've we've
KC: Yes.
RJ Russell: bonded, we've bonded over that, you know, for years now. So we just got braun, right? Listen.
KC: Yes. See, but you know I'm already I'm w this is not gonna be a very long conversation because I am in a I'm in a holding pattern. I am not like the the city went crazy like we won a championship. I'm like up I 95, them fools in New York just won. So I'm really still salty about that. I still have
RJ Russell: No.
KC: to navigate all my New York friends about that. And then we get brawn and we're acting like we've already won it, and I'm like, Slow your roll. Let's not get out in front of ourselves. Let's wait and see. So I remain cautiously optimistic. I am not going to get swept up in already winning. I'm not celebrating paper champions. I'm not doing it.
RJ Russell: Yep. No, e exact 'cause it's very easy to the second he he signed, that was it. Everybody was off to the races. Mm-hmm.
KC: The city went crazy. The city went crazy. I was like, y'all stop. Y'all need to stop. No. No, see, you're setting us up. Everybody
RJ Russell: Mm.
KC: saving all these videos stuff. they're gonna come for us. I'm like, nope. I'm not getting swept up. I'm just gonna remain cautiously optimistic.
RJ Russell: So with him joining the team, you know, what would be your first priorities from a a culture and a performance
KC: Hmm.
RJ Russell: standpoint?
KC: I think the young guys need to go on a retreat with him. VJ and Maxie, I think and and and Jalen, they could all benefit from Joel just needs to go train with them. Like he needs to go work out with them, right? And learn that discipline. Joel's is, you know, a young guy in an old heads body, right? So he needs to understand how to take great care of his body.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: But those three young guys, VJ, Jalen, and and Maxie, they need to actually learn how to lead. And they could learn how to lead from him. So I think he should create an off-site a retreat that's facilitated by me. I would facilitate it. Absolutely. Now now I could be involved, but I think they need an off-site where they can just learn from him and glean from him. Right, but also talk about their style and the way that they want to approach it so that they don't try to be him, but they can learn the best from him. Right. And cherry pick his best practices and bring that in. But I do think they're gonna need some kind of a team building cultural thing because he's a force by himself.
RJ Russell: Yes.
KC: Culturally, he tilts an organization. And so if you're not ready to get into the Braunverse, right? Because it's its own multiverse. Like it's it's different. And so these young guys are starting, they're climbing, but they're not there yet. And here comes this larger than life, preternatural being. And you're like, so should I be like him? Because it's just going to be so overwhelmingly, you know it's gonna really kind of envelop everything. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I think he would be wise, LeBron, to pull them aside and have like a retreat with them and really discuss it. I think it could be really powerful to do that. So that would be one of the first things I would like suggest to them is to
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: go away. You got time. You don't have to start camp until the end of September. So you got an opportunity to do that. And then I would, you know Take Joel separately and they're talking to him about this is the way that you can have the career from this point that you really should be having, and not the stop-start
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: brilliance. Cause when he's
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: really healthy, he's brilliant. He's brilliant. Joel
RJ Russell: It's a walking three point.
KC: is a Joel's a problem. All caps, bold italics. He's a problem when he's healthy. But when he's not, my God. You're just like Clutching, like, god, what what's gonna happen to him? Right. And you every time he falls, you're like, god, no. It's like it's like, is he gonna get up? And then I started doing the Joel fall meter, right? Like I was like count every game, and I'm like, My
RJ Russell: Is it?
KC: God, this man, you're too big. So LeBron could really help him a lot and help
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: all of them a lot, but I I do think culturally they're going to have to really establish something different. Because he's just LeBron is he really is a force and
RJ Russell: Uh-huh.
KC: I really do think it's going to impact that culture that they already have and so they need to be ready for that.
RJ Russell: Alright, so I got I got one more question for the day, but you know, if s someone listening today wanted to become a positive force in their team, in the workplace, community, you know, what's the first step towards becoming a catalyst in the lives of others?
KC: think the best way to become a catalyst in the lives of others is wanting to know other people's stories and being curious about their stories. And I think the more that we can demystify and debunk and unpack. Each other's stories, especially you as a catalyst. So if I know your story, if I know your story, if I know your story, if I know what care you care about, if I know what inspires you to get out of bed every morning, and I can feed that in little morsels of motivation, dude, we got we got we we doing something. Right? It's on. And I think if you get someone that's on your team, In your organization that wants to behave that way, that's a we not me person, right? Right? That's that person who shows up every day if you shine eyeshine. And it can be, it can put people off because they don't think you're genuine about it. So you gotta be consistent with it. And so if you consistently show up the same way, we not me, if you shine eyeshine, what's your story? What inspires you to come here every day? What's your red rubber ball? What are you chasing? And if I know
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: that, bruh. Magic, right? Alchemy is gonna happen. Flow is gonna happen, right? We're gonna be optimizing our experience collectively. Come on. We're gonna be winning. Chips, chips,
RJ Russell: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
KC: chips. We're gonna have all kinds of chips, right?
RJ Russell: Hmm.
KC: Business chips, sports chips. School chips, right? Whatever it is, we're gonna be winning. So
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: I think that's the best way to be a catalyst for in your organization or your team is someone has to be willing to sacrifice themselves, be the servant leader, and be the person who rallies, who creates the collective energy. I love that collective effervescence, bruh. Like I'm into that. Like collective
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: effervescence. Come on. And you can tell when it's popping. Like you can just
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: tell. You can. And so wouldn't that be wonderful as a catalyst that your goal was collective effervescence, which makes kind of sense, right? Spark catalyst effervescence, all in the fa in that family, right? Of energizing something. So I think that's the goal, right? Is to be someone who really like, what's your story? What's your story? What's your story? And then how do I feed you every day?
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: So that you come in like inspired to elevate you. And then collectively we're all raising our game and here we go.
RJ Russell: Thank you so much for coming on the pod. dropping some knowledge on us. Shoot, definitely dropping some knowledge. Listen, listen, y'all getting free game here. You ain't even paying for the game.
KC: Free game. I'm all about that free game. So here we go. Come on. Wait, you can see, but I get sciencey. I'm just I'm just dabbling in some sciencey stuff for y'all, right?
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: We we didn't we didn't get real deep into no science, but if we wanted to, we could. But you see how I
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: did that, right? I just sprinkle, sprinkle.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KC: Sprinkle, sprinkle, right? For those for your for your learned people that come on your podcast to like listen and stuff like I don't understand. He was talking about you feel me and those kinds of things. And then wait,
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: then he dropped collective effervescence. Wait, then he dropped Optimization and Mahali, Chicks and Mahali. Wait, okay, I'm in. So so this is like Disney, a Disney movie, right? It's for everybody. This
RJ Russell: Yeah.
KC: podcast episode is for everybody. Right? So you'll
RJ Russell: Die.
KC: be able to like promote it that way. Like, hey, we got gravitas and we got from the mud. We got a little bit of everything. It's a very it's a very filly thing. Wait. Wait,
RJ Russell: Yes, yes.
KC: but I will say that I am so impressed with your growth. And I said it before we were started recording. To see you from you know that senior year at Ohio State 2019, your decision to still run another year, right? And do track and go to Eastern Carolina and get your graduate degree and then get sparked with, huh? I think I want to get a PhD in sports psychology and sport performance. I think I want to do that. And I said, okay, well, how will you do that? I'm not sure. And then I helped you with Recos and different things. You were trying to get like in, it didn't work out. But he said, I got this gig at IU. I'm going out there and I'm gonna do research on brain research, right? Neuroscience. And I said, okay. And he said, and I'm just gonna bolster my application. And looky looky, you found a way. Now,
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: you could have been upended when you didn't get in.
RJ Russell: Exactly.
KC: Which is typically what happens. But you're
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: hard-headed enough to hang in there.
RJ Russell: Ha ha.
KC: Which is a gift, right? That's your grit, that's your resilience that you learn from sport. Right? You learned how to hang in there, right? When things aren't seemingly working. I'm not hitting my PR, this isn't happening yet. I'm gonna trust and believe hard work never goes unrewarded. And now here you are in a PhD program at IU. So I think it's a great, great lesson for a lot of young people that it's not microwavable. It's not. And no
RJ Russell: Yep. Mm mm.
KC: matter how much you're seeing on socials that people are highlighting this and showing that and maxing this and that, right? It's really not the true essence of the way things play out. You gotta work hard. You
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
KC: do. You don't, it's there's no getting around hard work. And you have to be able to deal with when things don't go your way. Can you keep pushing forward, failing forward? And so good on you to not quit on it and to be hard headed enough. And it's going to pay dividends for the clients and the teams and the people that you work with because you're going to be able to speak from a place of knowing. You're not just going to be clinical in your practice, you're going to be applied. And I think that's really gonna be the power of what you bring because you've you've you towed the line, right? When you gotta go do them damn repeat 300s, right? Like you you know
RJ Russell: Yep. I don't miss that. I don't miss that.
KC: like but you've had to toe the line, like you know, right? Like, damn, I don't know about today. Do I really wanna go to practice today? I saw what the workout is. I here we go. Or I saw what I my reading list, what I had to read for school. And here we go. Cause it's gonna be worth it. And so good on you, man. Like honestly, RJ. Like really, I think the story you're going to tell to your students, to your clients, to your organizations and teams you're gonna work with is going to be inspiring. So keep going, bruh. Keep going.
RJ Russell: Thank you. Thank you. Listeners, this episode is for the catalysts out there, for the the hard heads, for you know anybody who's just willing to, you know, keep pushing, chasing, and and making change wherever they go. so thank you again, listeners, for listening and have a great day.
KC: Absolutely. Peace and play. Be well.
RJ Russell: Mm-hmm.
