The Light Withdrawn: Christopher Cox On How Woodrow Wilson Shaped—And Undermined—American Democracy | Uncommon Knowledge | Peter Robinson | Hoover Institution

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>> Peter Robinson: I'm Peter Robinson
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you.
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Woodrow Wilson, our 28th president,
a great man or a misogynist and bigot?
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>> Christopher Cox: Historian Christopher
Cox on Uncommon Knowledge, now.
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[MUSIC]
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>> Peter Robinson: Welcome to
Uncommon Knowledge, I'm Peter Robinson.
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A native of St.
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Paul, Minnesota, Christopher Cox holds an
undergraduate degree from the University
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of Southern California and
both JD and MBA degrees from Harvard.
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Mr. Cox's government service was
extensive, he served in the counsel's
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office in the Reagan White House,
where we became friends.
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He represented a district in Southern
California in the House of Representatives
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for 16 years, and he served as chairman of
the securities and Exchange Commission.
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Since leaving government in 2009, Mr.
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Cox has practiced law in Southern
California and turned 14 years ago?
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14 years ago, to the writing of
the biography published late last year,
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Woodrow Wilson, The Light Withdrawn.
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John Greenleaf Whittier on
Daniel Webster in an 1850 poem,
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so fallen, so lost, the light withdrawn,
which once he wore.
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The glory from his gray hairs gone
Forevermore, The Light Withdrawn.
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>> Christopher Cox: The light
withdrawn is.
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>> Peter Robinson: Why is that the title?
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>> Christopher Cox: It comes from a poem,
John Greenleaf Whittier was
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an abolitionist poet, and he was writing
about an event that shook him and
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abolitionists throughout New England and
really across the country.
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Which was Daniel Webster,
Senator Webster, abolition champion,
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letting them down, someone whom
they had put all their faith in.
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And the question addressed and
answered in the poem is,
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how do you react when a political
figure that you have lionized and
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aggrandized and thought so
highly of breaks your heart?
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And the answer, he said,
is not to pile on and
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not to be angry, but sad and humble and
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recognize that everyone,
they're all human,
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everyone has the opportunity
to fail in various ways.
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>> Peter Robinson: And
most of us take the opportunity.
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>> Christopher Cox: Leaders do as well.
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>> Peter Robinson: All right.
>> Christopher Cox: So it struck me,
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writing a century after
Woodrow Wilson was on the scene,
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that, that kind of dispassion and
empathy for him and also for
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the other people who challenged
him during his career,
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it was the appropriate approach.
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>> Peter Robinson: All right,
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let's take a moment to establish
just who Woodrow Wilson was.
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Wilson's date, 1856 to 1924, he becomes
a professor of what we would now
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call Political Science at the College
of New Jersey, soon renamed Princeton,
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12 years later,
he's named president of Princeton.
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Eight years later,
he's elected governor of New Jersey,
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and two years after that, in 1912, he's
elected president of the United States.
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Re-elected to a second term in 1916,
meteoric rise.
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>> Christopher Cox: Absolutely.
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>> Peter Robinson: What does Wilson
accomplish during his two terms as
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president?
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Well, here's the conventional view.
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He reduces the country's
reliance on import tariffs by
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introducing our first federal income tax.
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He establishes the Federal Reserve System,
he creates the Federal Trade Commission,
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which enables the executive
branch to regulate monopolies.
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He expands protections for
organized labor and worker safety,
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he wins the First World War.
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He negotiates the Treaty of Versailles,
for
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which he's awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
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And although he fails to bring the United
States into the New League of Nations,
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his design for the League serves
as a model for the United nations,
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which the United States does join,
just over a quarter of a century later,
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after the Second World War.
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Woodrow Wilson stunning
rise in politics then,
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one of the most consequential
presidencies in American history.
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Christopher Cox, what the heck
have you got against this guy?
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>> Christopher Cox: Well, first of all,
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as we were just discussing with
John Greenleaf Whittier's admonition
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to be humble as we approach these subjects
of people who break our hearts, the people
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whose hearts were broken are all dead,
as well as Woodrow Wilson is dead.
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But the people in this case
who were let down were
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not only women in America,
not only Black Americans,
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and the people who supported them,
who were their allies.
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But more generally, it was the whole
country that paid the price for
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this, and we who live decades
later certainly see this
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in much more stark relief than we
would have if we'd lived at the time.
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And the people who were passionately
invested in these issues, and
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there were many of them,
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certainly knew better than we can now what
was at stake and how difficult it was.
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But this was a big issue that
needs to be added to the list.
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So the list that you itemized is pretty
well known, there have been many,
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many biographies of Woodrow Wilson.
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If you're gonna write a new biography
about a president who's been covered
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in literally over a thousand books,
you better have something new to say.
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What has been left out of the standard
Wilson biography is his views on race and
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his views on sex, by the way,
we call it gender today, but
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it was sex at the time, and
it's sex in the constitution.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so
let's go straight to that then.
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[COUGH] From The Light Withdrawn,
Wilson and the suffragettes.
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Quote, Wilson found teaching
women history and politics.
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And here you quote Wilson himself,
about as appropriate as would be lecturing
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to stonemasons on the evolution
of fashion, close quote.
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Explain that remark, explain the point.
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>> Christopher Cox: Well, first of all,
it's pretty straightforward,
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he doesn't think that women,
girls, as he often called them,
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even though they were graduate students.
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Students in many cases, in some
cases plenty older than he was, but
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he didn't believe that they had any
business studying the history of
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government or politics.
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Because they had no role, no civic role
in participating in democracy that way,
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he had no trouble expressing
these views in private.
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You started your description
of his political
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career with Princeton,
that was his third stop as.
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>> Peter Robinson: As a teacher.
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>> Christopher Cox: And he was 28 when he
got his first paying job as a teacher, so
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there was a lot that happened
before that that framed his views,
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he was a child of the Civil War,
he was a child of Reconstruction.
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>> Peter Robinson: He grew up in?
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>> Christopher Cox: He
was born in Virginia,
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grew up till teenage years in Georgia,
then his family moved and
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he moved with them to South Carolina,
then they moved to North Carolina.
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He then, as part of his schooling,
went to the University of Virginia for
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one year of law school
before he dropped out.
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He then three years later, went to Atlanta
to attempt to practice law even though
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he didn't have a degree, that didn't work
out either, so he quit that after a year.
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So a lot of formative time in the south,
but particularly,
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his years of living through Reconstruction
were really important for Woodrow Wilson.
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>> Peter Robinson: Okay, let's take a
moment on that, his family, tell us about
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his family, the role they played in, well,
where they stood during the Civil War,
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and what Reconstruction meant to
their family, take a moment on that.
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>> Christopher Cox: Yeah, so Woodrow
Wilson had very few friends as a child and
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as a teenager, but
he was really strongly attached
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to his father,
he hero worshiped his father.
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His father was Presbyterian Minister,
went by Dr.
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Wilson in all quarters, even though
he did not earn a doctorate anywhere.
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He got an honorary degree
when he was a young
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man from a small college
that nobody's ever heard of.
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Dr. Wilson preached to his segregated
congregation that slavery,
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remember, we're talking about
the Pre-Civil War years right now,
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that slavery was sanctioned by God,
that it was a benefit, and
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in fact, should be cherished by both
the master race and by the inferior race.
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And the terms that he used are quite
offensive to us today, but
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he had no difficulty expressing
himself in this way.
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When the Civil War came, he turned his
churchyard into an internment camp for
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Union soldiers on their way
to Andersonville Prison,
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which is known today for
its horrific abuse.
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>> Peter Robinson: And this is, I'm trying
to remember where this takes place because
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they moved from state to state in
the South, this is in Virginia.
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>> Christopher Cox: This is in Georgia.
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>> Peter Robinson: Georgia,
I'm sorry, Georgia.
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>> Christopher Cox: Right.
>> Peter Robinson: All right.
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>> Christopher Cox: After
the Civil War and
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after the Reconstruction Amendments,
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which Wilson father strongly opposed.
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And we know that the son did, too, because
later on he wrote about this period
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in his history of the American people.
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He lived through it, and
then he later wrote about it, so
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it's a wonderful thing for
a biographer to have that insight.
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Who knows what he really thought when
he lived through these things, but
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we know because he told us.
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So after the Reconstruction Amendments,
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Woodrow Wilson got to say
that the 15th Amendment,
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which allowed black men to vote,
was the ruin of the South.
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He said similar things about
every aspect of Reconstruction,
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including the Freedmen's Bureau,
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which he thought that was encouraging
laziness among the former enslaved people.
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He thought that they were owed nothing,
apparently,
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as a result of being instantly turned
loose on society without any training,
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having been the chattel of their owners.
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The Wilson family, and Woodrow Wilson
grew up in this environment,
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had enslaved servants.
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He's the last American president to have
grown up in a house with enslaved people.
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So these formative years for
him caused him to believe that
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what was called universal suffrage,
at first meaning black
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men can vote,
ultimately meaning women can vote too.
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That universal suffrage was the cause
of all of the nation's problems,
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and when he was a student at Princeton,
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he read things that he thought were very
persuasive that made the same point.
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>> Peter Robinson: All right,
I wanna jump back here to
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Wilson as a sort of founder of what we
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think of as the Progressive movement.
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So by the time he gets to Princeton,
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we wanna hit the progressive movement,
women's suffrage,
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and then come back to his attitude
toward African Americans, as President.
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Wilson writes, as I recall,
I'm recalling now,
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he writes a senior thesis at Princeton,
or what would soon be named Princeton,
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in which he's very dubious about
the Constitution as it stood.
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And says things that suggest he really
would favor something closer to
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the British parliamentary system,
where the executive has central power
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that can carry whatever vote it wants
to carry through the House of Commons.
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And then he says it more elaborately
in work that he publishes,
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is it in the history of
the American people?
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In any event, there's a body of thought,
by the way, we should stipulate,
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this man was extremely articulate.
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>> Christopher Cox: Yes.
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>> Peter Robinson: He wrote constantly, so
we have a large body of work by him, and
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in all kinds of ways,
it's tremendously impressive,
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it is an internally consistent
body of thought, right?
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>> Christopher Cox: Got
this from his father.
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>> Peter Robinson: Is that so?
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>> Christopher Cox: Yes, his father was.
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>> Peter Robinson: [CROSSTALK]
>> Christopher Cox: A stickler for
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using just the right word.
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And one of the some people ask me,
how do you stick with someone
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whose flaws you, writing about for
14 years as a biographer and
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a researcher,
without liking that part of them.
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But I really liked the parts in which
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Joseph Ruggles Wilson
is instructing his son.
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Their correspondence back and forth and
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the obvious impact that it had on
Wood Wilson, he was a great wordsmith.
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>> Peter Robinson: All right,
so he says in precise language,
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he lays out that he's extremely
dubious of democracy,
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00:15:14,666 --> 00:15:19,433
essentially, or
of extending the franchise.
226
00:15:19,433 --> 00:15:23,897
What I'm trying to do is be fair to him
without reading back onto him what we
227
00:15:23,897 --> 00:15:26,786
understand progressivism, to mean, today.
228
00:15:26,786 --> 00:15:30,546
So I'm tempted to say he was
an early technocrat, is that fair?
229
00:15:30,546 --> 00:15:31,210
>> Christopher Cox: Well, I don't know.
[CROSSTALK]
230
00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:31,829
>> Peter Robinson: Reading something
231
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:32,334
back into him.
232
00:15:32,334 --> 00:15:37,720
>> Christopher Cox: I don't know
that technocrat quite captures it,
233
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:44,786
Wilson's views on race did not
change much throughout his life.
234
00:15:44,786 --> 00:15:49,449
His views on women did change over time,
but not so
235
00:15:49,449 --> 00:15:55,016
much his views on race and
to sort of race to the conclusion.
236
00:15:55,016 --> 00:16:00,034
When we get to the Anthony Amendment,
the reason that Wilson.
237
00:16:00,034 --> 00:16:05,457
Even though he was softened on the idea
that women could be part of civic society,
238
00:16:05,457 --> 00:16:09,446
the reason that he opposed
the Anthony Amendment was that it
239
00:16:09,446 --> 00:16:12,265
allowed black women to vote in the South.
240
00:16:12,265 --> 00:16:14,889
It would have brought federal
enforcement to the South,
241
00:16:14,889 --> 00:16:18,837
it would have been another 15th amendment,
and he didn't like it for that reason.
242
00:16:18,837 --> 00:16:23,454
But his views need to be
judged not by our times,
243
00:16:23,454 --> 00:16:28,650
not through what historians
think of as presentism,
244
00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:32,125
but rather according to his times.
245
00:16:32,125 --> 00:16:37,182
And his holding out for
as long as he did against women voting,
246
00:16:37,182 --> 00:16:41,463
and his segregating
the federal government were for
247
00:16:41,463 --> 00:16:44,782
his own time, judged by progressives.
248
00:16:44,782 --> 00:16:49,019
Many progressives, not all of them,
because he had many racist progressives in
249
00:16:49,019 --> 00:16:52,945
his own administration, but judged by
many progressives of the time, and
250
00:16:52,945 --> 00:16:57,268
certainly many progressive Republicans,
and people of all political stripes.
251
00:16:57,268 --> 00:17:01,817
His actions were way out there,
he was an outlier.
252
00:17:01,817 --> 00:17:03,190
>> Peter Robinson: Okay.
253
00:17:03,190 --> 00:17:07,150
>> Christopher Cox: And I'm sorry, I don't
want to lose the point that you mentioned
254
00:17:07,150 --> 00:17:10,319
about his views on the structure
of the government,
255
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:13,409
because that relates
back to Reconstruction.
256
00:17:13,409 --> 00:17:14,693
>> Peter Robinson: Okay,
explain that, right.
257
00:17:14,693 --> 00:17:20,967
>> Christopher Cox: He hated what happened
when this domineering Republican Congress
258
00:17:20,967 --> 00:17:26,240
forced black people, black men,
voting on the South.
259
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:32,008
He thought that the south should be
governed by its natural leaders,
260
00:17:32,008 --> 00:17:37,378
the superior white men, and
it sounds like I'm picking on him,
261
00:17:37,378 --> 00:17:39,778
but these are his own words.
262
00:17:39,778 --> 00:17:44,284
And if you think about what
he was proposing, first,
263
00:17:44,284 --> 00:17:49,292
in his very brief paper that he
wrote as a senior in college,
264
00:17:49,292 --> 00:17:53,400
and then later on in
congressional government,
265
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,409
what he was proposing was a system
that would have prevented
266
00:17:58,409 --> 00:18:03,751
the override of Andrew Johnson's
vetoes of Reconstruction.
267
00:18:03,751 --> 00:18:06,566
He sort of reverse engineered the problem.
268
00:18:06,566 --> 00:18:10,189
Here was Andrew Johnson who would
have done the right thing, but
269
00:18:10,189 --> 00:18:12,736
here was the Congress that got in his way,
and
270
00:18:12,736 --> 00:18:15,911
this Congress he described as despotic and
dangerous.
271
00:18:15,911 --> 00:18:21,870
So the whole purpose of revising
the Constitution, he wanted the President
272
00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:27,843
to be able to appoint the people who
chaired the committees in the Congress.
273
00:18:27,843 --> 00:18:32,822
Only members of the President's party
could introduce legislation, and on,
274
00:18:32,822 --> 00:18:33,350
and on.
275
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:35,711
The reason for this was.
276
00:18:35,711 --> 00:18:36,464
>> Peter Robinson: It would
have protected the old south.
277
00:18:36,464 --> 00:18:41,244
>> Christopher Cox: He lived through
Reconstruction, and it really formed
278
00:18:41,244 --> 00:18:46,035
a firm view in his mind that
Congress is the big problem.
279
00:18:46,035 --> 00:18:48,072
>> Peter Robinson: I see,
I see, all right,
280
00:18:48,072 --> 00:18:52,708
you go through incident after incident,
after incident,
281
00:18:52,708 --> 00:18:58,936
in which he seems to be talking out of two
sides of his mouth to the suffragettes.
282
00:18:58,936 --> 00:19:03,900
He seems to imply that he's with them,
and then behind their backs, or
283
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:09,132
in correspondence, he undermines
the suffrage movement, he delays it.
284
00:19:09,132 --> 00:19:15,301
So let's take just a moment to set up,
[COUGH], women's suffrage as an issue.
285
00:19:15,301 --> 00:19:20,707
As best I can tell it emerges as a serious
political issue after the Civil War,
286
00:19:20,707 --> 00:19:24,716
1880s, 1890s, but
by the turn of the century.
287
00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:25,768
>> Christopher Cox: 1860s.
288
00:19:25,768 --> 00:19:29,463
>> Peter Robinson: 1860s,
it's right up even during the Civil War.
289
00:19:29,463 --> 00:19:33,482
>> Christopher Cox: Well, during the Civil
War in the sense that the women who became
290
00:19:33,482 --> 00:19:38,470
leaders of the suffrage movement were
working in war work during the Civil War,
291
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:41,831
and they were working before
that as abolitionists.
292
00:19:41,831 --> 00:19:45,256
So the connection between
the abolition movement and
293
00:19:45,256 --> 00:19:49,148
the suffrage movement is almost
complete in those decades.
294
00:19:49,148 --> 00:19:51,962
>> Peter Robinson: So is it fair to
say that by the turn of the century,
295
00:19:51,962 --> 00:19:54,241
by the Beginning of the 20th century,
296
00:19:54,241 --> 00:19:58,730
women's suffrage has become such a central
issue in American politics that any
297
00:19:58,730 --> 00:20:02,297
politician of any national
standing must declare on it.
298
00:20:02,297 --> 00:20:02,919
Is that fair?
299
00:20:02,919 --> 00:20:05,456
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, at the turn
of the century, that's absolutely true,
300
00:20:05,456 --> 00:20:06,967
it was a tipping point by that time.
301
00:20:06,967 --> 00:20:11,087
But to really put a fine
point on the 1860s,
302
00:20:11,087 --> 00:20:16,753
when Congress was considering
the 14th Amendment, it was then
303
00:20:16,753 --> 00:20:23,567
that the first amendments were introduced
to include women in the franchise.
304
00:20:23,567 --> 00:20:28,722
So we have Samuel Pomeroy,
Senator Pomeroy from Kansas,
305
00:20:28,722 --> 00:20:35,044
introducing one amendment at the time,
a proposed 14th amendment.
306
00:20:35,044 --> 00:20:40,384
And then we have George Julian
doing the same thing in the House.
307
00:20:40,384 --> 00:20:42,563
The 14th Amendment itself,
308
00:20:42,563 --> 00:20:47,841
not these separate bills introduced by
these two men, in its first version
309
00:20:47,841 --> 00:20:52,982
that came out of the joint committee
that was writing it included women.
310
00:20:52,982 --> 00:20:57,167
>> Peter Robinson: And so is that the
correct way to think that women's suffrage
311
00:20:57,167 --> 00:21:02,102
is tied in the minds of the founders
of that movement to black suffrage?
312
00:21:02,102 --> 00:21:07,392
That this moment of liberation is
to liberate African American men,
313
00:21:07,392 --> 00:21:09,773
but also women in their minds?
314
00:21:09,773 --> 00:21:10,581
Is that fair?
315
00:21:10,581 --> 00:21:12,569
>> Christopher Cox: That's not only fair,
that is.
316
00:21:12,569 --> 00:21:14,428
[INAUDIBLE]
>> Christopher Cox: That's a really
317
00:21:14,428 --> 00:21:18,813
important point because at
the Seneca Falls Convention,
318
00:21:18,813 --> 00:21:24,016
now we're back to 1840s, and
here we have Frederick Douglass.
319
00:21:24,016 --> 00:21:26,697
He's there at Seneca Falls, and
320
00:21:26,697 --> 00:21:31,198
he's speaking in behalf of
women's right to vote, and
321
00:21:31,198 --> 00:21:36,272
then he takes his newspaper and
runs on the mast head constantly
322
00:21:36,272 --> 00:21:41,180
a motto about not only race equality,
but gender equality.
323
00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:46,168
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so
these two go very, very much together.
324
00:21:46,168 --> 00:21:50,762
The light withdrawn,
you've got incident after incident here
325
00:21:50,762 --> 00:21:54,430
of Wilson proving less than admirable,
perhaps.
326
00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:58,315
Wilson claimed that as president,
he was powerless to advocate for
327
00:21:58,315 --> 00:22:01,246
women's voting rights
because he lacked the prior
328
00:22:01,246 --> 00:22:04,258
approval of the Democratic party and
its platform.
329
00:22:04,258 --> 00:22:05,526
It was not his place,
330
00:22:05,526 --> 00:22:09,695
Wilson insisted, to espouse any
view not expressed in the platform.
331
00:22:09,695 --> 00:22:12,896
He was, he said,
merely the party's spokesman.
332
00:22:12,896 --> 00:22:18,576
Then Chris Cox continues to say,
the transparent insincerity of Wilson's
333
00:22:18,576 --> 00:22:24,358
latest excuse made clear that his actual
policy was ever lengthening delay.
334
00:22:24,358 --> 00:22:26,311
What does he think he's doing?
335
00:22:26,311 --> 00:22:29,745
>> Christopher Cox: Well, he thinks he's
putting it off, he means to put it off,
336
00:22:29,745 --> 00:22:31,539
he also means to dodge a bullet.
337
00:22:31,539 --> 00:22:35,265
He doesn't wanna come straight
at the problem and say,
338
00:22:35,265 --> 00:22:39,239
ain't ever gonna happen as long
as I'm in the White House.
339
00:22:39,239 --> 00:22:40,321
This idea that.
340
00:22:40,321 --> 00:22:43,362
>> Peter Robinson: So he's being a
professional politician, he's maneuvering.
341
00:22:43,362 --> 00:22:47,138
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, and I will
actually give him credit, because he was
342
00:22:47,138 --> 00:22:52,018
able to keep changing his story about
why he opposed the Anthony Minute for
343
00:22:52,018 --> 00:22:56,346
such a long period and got away with it,
as a politician using that
344
00:22:56,346 --> 00:23:00,304
word with all of its potential
pejorative meaning as well.
345
00:23:00,304 --> 00:23:04,797
As a politician,
he did more than passingly well.
346
00:23:04,797 --> 00:23:10,283
But the transparent insincerity comes
from the fact that he had written,
347
00:23:10,283 --> 00:23:14,531
when he was writing about government,
something very,
348
00:23:14,531 --> 00:23:18,707
very different about what
the role of the President is.
349
00:23:18,707 --> 00:23:22,653
The President's role is not just
to be the leader of his party, but
350
00:23:22,653 --> 00:23:24,556
to be the leader of the country,
351
00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:29,295
and the suffragists that came in to meet
with him quoted those words back to him.
352
00:23:29,295 --> 00:23:33,579
They didn't for a moment buy what he
was saying, and he didn't either.
353
00:23:33,579 --> 00:23:35,804
>> Peter Robinson: All right, okay, so
354
00:23:35,804 --> 00:23:41,128
let me give you a moment in history and
a quotation.
355
00:23:41,128 --> 00:23:44,250
Here's the piece of history,
it's not until 1919,
356
00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:46,990
this is the seventh year
of Wilson's presidency,
357
00:23:46,990 --> 00:23:51,387
that Congress passes a women's suffrage
amendment, and the Republicans give it
358
00:23:51,387 --> 00:23:55,234
more thoroughgoing support than do
Woodrow Wilson's own Democrats.
359
00:23:55,234 --> 00:23:58,418
And as you note at the time that
this is enacted, Wilson is now.
360
00:23:58,418 --> 00:24:03,627
Not even in the country he's at the Paris
Peace Conference and here's the quotation
361
00:24:03,627 --> 00:24:08,832
from the light withdrawn at the millennium
that is the turn of the 20th to the 21st
362
00:24:08,832 --> 00:24:14,114
century the Gallup Organization asked the
American public to name the most important
363
00:24:14,114 --> 00:24:19,550
event of the 20th century 66% chose
quote women gaining the right to vote.
364
00:24:19,550 --> 00:24:24,776
Ahead of landing a man on the moon and
the fall of the Soviet Union
365
00:24:24,776 --> 00:24:29,707
only World War II ranked higher
now here's a quotation from
366
00:24:29,707 --> 00:24:35,050
the Wilson Center's Global
Women's Leadership Initiative.
367
00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:37,872
I confess I'm not even sure
what all that means but
368
00:24:37,872 --> 00:24:41,435
here's what they have on their
website Wilson's voice proved
369
00:24:41,435 --> 00:24:45,090
unequivocal in the ultimate
passing of the 19th Amendment.
370
00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:49,215
Wilson spoke fondly of its passage
saying that now they're quoting Wilson,
371
00:24:49,215 --> 00:24:53,086
I deem it one of the greatest honors
of my life that this great event should
372
00:24:53,086 --> 00:24:56,020
have occurred during my
administration close quote.
373
00:24:57,460 --> 00:25:02,652
So on an issue that Americans
today believe one of the most
374
00:25:02,652 --> 00:25:08,061
important in our history he's
still seen by some as a heroic
375
00:25:08,061 --> 00:25:15,220
figure what's the correct way give us on
this issue, how do we place this man?
376
00:25:15,220 --> 00:25:18,486
>> Christopher Cox: Well Wilson speaks
truthfully when he says it happened
377
00:25:18,486 --> 00:25:22,110
during his administration
happened at the very bitter end.
378
00:25:22,110 --> 00:25:26,200
And it happened after his party
lost control of both the House and
379
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,971
the Senate and after he was forced by
Democrats in his own party to change his
380
00:25:30,971 --> 00:25:35,820
view literally the night before
the House of representatives by 2/3 vote
381
00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:40,393
approved the Anthony Amendment he
was dragged across the finish line.
382
00:25:40,393 --> 00:25:42,750
>> Peter Robinson: All right,
but good politician that he was,
383
00:25:42,750 --> 00:25:45,920
he was happy to take credit for
it when that served a purpose.
384
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,960
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, and
that poll that you mentioned.
385
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:48,460
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
386
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,115
>> Christopher Cox: It really is amazing
that in all of the biographies that had
387
00:25:54,115 --> 00:25:57,103
been written about Woodrow Wilson, so
388
00:25:57,103 --> 00:26:02,715
little attention is paid to what at
the time was the biggest domestic issue
389
00:26:02,715 --> 00:26:08,720
we had World War I going on of course
in Woodrow Wilson's second term.
390
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,976
But even then,
women's suffrage was fighting successfully
391
00:26:13,976 --> 00:26:18,724
with World War I, with the battles and
all the losses and
392
00:26:18,724 --> 00:26:23,069
a million men in single battle and
so on fighting for
393
00:26:23,069 --> 00:26:29,450
headlines on the front page and
oftentimes kick the war onto page two.
394
00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:33,625
>> Peter Robinson: I have to admit,
I hadn't thought of it this way until just
395
00:26:33,625 --> 00:26:38,573
now but the biographies that leave
out out his opposition to women's
396
00:26:38,573 --> 00:26:43,262
suffrage have to leave it out at
least in part because they've not
397
00:26:43,262 --> 00:26:47,525
done a thorough job of explaining
his formation as a child of
398
00:26:47,525 --> 00:26:51,820
the south that you bring
something to bear on the question.
399
00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:56,639
I mean there are certain reviews you will
have been aware of this by now that,
400
00:26:56,639 --> 00:27:01,990
say deeply researched meticulously written
but for goodness sake too much emphasis
401
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:07,415
on women's suffrage or too much emphasis
on Wilson's failings you've already made
402
00:27:07,415 --> 00:27:12,650
the point that this is what hasn't been
treated and therefore needs correction.
403
00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:14,690
>> Christopher Cox: It's a compliment
to existing biographies.
404
00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:18,202
>> Peter Robinson: All right, but
at the same time unless you understand,
405
00:27:18,202 --> 00:27:23,137
you cannot understand Wilson's formation,
his intellectual formation and
406
00:27:23,137 --> 00:27:27,570
psychological formation as a child
of the old Reconstruction South.
407
00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:33,693
Unless you understand well the two go
together yes the two go together if you
408
00:27:33,693 --> 00:27:38,084
don't if you say if, I'd rather not talk
about his opposition to suffer no you have
409
00:27:38,084 --> 00:27:40,620
to understand that to
understand him correct.
410
00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:42,241
>> Christopher Cox: I
think that's right and
411
00:27:42,241 --> 00:27:46,793
it's not just that he was a Southerner and
that that had an impact on him
412
00:27:46,793 --> 00:27:52,540
particularly in the time that he grew up
as we were discussing in Reconstruction.
413
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:57,604
But it's that the movement for
women's voting rights was
414
00:27:57,604 --> 00:28:02,562
from the first, so
closely connected with abolition and
415
00:28:02,562 --> 00:28:07,624
with race in the final act
Woodrow Wilson's opposition as
416
00:28:07,624 --> 00:28:12,910
I mentioned a moment ago to
the Anthony men was based on race.
417
00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:17,694
It was based on his deference to
the Jim Crow states he wanted to protect
418
00:28:17,694 --> 00:28:21,828
Jim Crow And something that is
newly discussed in this book,
419
00:28:21,828 --> 00:28:26,773
that has not appeared in even scholarly
articles to my knowledge was that
420
00:28:26,773 --> 00:28:31,751
even after his public expression of
support for the Anthony Amendment.
421
00:28:31,751 --> 00:28:36,134
He then worked with Democratic
senators from the south to rewrite
422
00:28:36,134 --> 00:28:40,835
the Anthony Amendment to protect
Jim Crow to get rid of that meddlesome
423
00:28:40,835 --> 00:28:45,378
section two that said that the Congress
shall have the power through
424
00:28:45,378 --> 00:28:48,580
appropriate legislation
to enforce this act.
425
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:52,933
>> Peter Robinson: All right, so let's go
right to Wilson on race and again this is
426
00:28:52,933 --> 00:28:58,935
immensely frustrating because we have here
hundreds of very carefully researched and
427
00:28:58,935 --> 00:29:04,380
beautifully written words on Woodrow
Wilson and we're whipping through it.
428
00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:10,219
But this is a book and this is a different
medium we do what we can here 1902,
429
00:29:10,219 --> 00:29:14,557
President of Princeton,
Wilson publishes his History of
430
00:29:14,557 --> 00:29:19,180
the American People which is not
a minor work five volumes is.
431
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:21,620
>> Christopher Cox: Although they're.
432
00:29:21,620 --> 00:29:22,500
>> Peter Robinson: They're minor volumes.
433
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:23,608
>> Christopher Cox: They're thin volumes.
434
00:29:23,608 --> 00:29:25,129
>> Peter Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Christopher Cox: You might fit them
435
00:29:25,129 --> 00:29:29,700
into maybe not quite this book but
it's a substantial work no question.
436
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:33,752
>> Peter Robinson: All right, this is
you in the light withdrawn writing about
437
00:29:33,752 --> 00:29:36,753
Wilson's History of the American People,
438
00:29:36,753 --> 00:29:40,980
Wilson scolded Republicans for
their sentimentality.
439
00:29:40,980 --> 00:29:45,158
They might believe granting civil and
political rights to black citizens a sound
440
00:29:45,158 --> 00:29:49,600
policy, but it was only because they
did not appreciate the humiliation.
441
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:50,827
Quoting Wilson,
442
00:29:50,827 --> 00:29:55,733
the white men of the south would suffer
by being put Quoting Wilson Under
443
00:29:55,733 --> 00:30:00,723
the Negro's heels a government quoting
Wilson sustained by the votes of
444
00:30:00,723 --> 00:30:06,480
ignorant Negroes placed an intolerable
burden on the white men of the South.
445
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,562
Wilson concluded it was plain to see
that the troubles again quoting Wilson
446
00:30:10,562 --> 00:30:14,643
the troubles in the southern states
arose out of the exclusion of the better
447
00:30:14,643 --> 00:30:18,290
whites from the electoral suffrage and
the extension of the vote.
448
00:30:18,290 --> 00:30:24,179
To quoting Wilson, the most ignorant
blacks, close quote well, you can see how
449
00:30:24,179 --> 00:30:29,723
somebody brings that up and the princeton
board of trustees has no choice but
450
00:30:29,723 --> 00:30:35,093
to take Woodrow Wilson's name off
the formerly Woodrow Wilson School for
451
00:30:35,093 --> 00:30:39,170
International Studies I
guess this is very shocking.
452
00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:44,782
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, and the history
of the American people is loaded with it
453
00:30:44,782 --> 00:30:50,944
as you say there are many incidents
many quotations in this book but
454
00:30:50,944 --> 00:30:55,785
trust me,
it's not the whole my editors at Simon and
455
00:30:55,785 --> 00:31:00,140
Schuster said, you've made the point.
456
00:31:00,140 --> 00:31:05,469
And, I said yes but I don't want to be
the one to make the point Woodrow Wilson
457
00:31:05,469 --> 00:31:10,631
is the man who's going to speak in this
book, not me and so it's not ever in
458
00:31:10,631 --> 00:31:15,740
my voice but even slimmed down in
that way, I think it's overwhelming.
459
00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:21,044
>> Peter Robinson: It's hard to take okay
so that's his thinking he is a racist he
460
00:31:21,044 --> 00:31:27,380
just believes in fundamental differences
between people based on race.
461
00:31:27,380 --> 00:31:29,879
>> Christopher Cox: Yeah, and
it's just this is pure old fashioned.
462
00:31:29,879 --> 00:31:33,506
Thought experiment we can say,
let's try and
463
00:31:33,506 --> 00:31:37,226
remove all of the bad
connotations of racism and
464
00:31:37,226 --> 00:31:41,411
just understand what it is
because Woodrow Wilson and
465
00:31:41,411 --> 00:31:45,968
the people in his cabinet that
he personally selected were
466
00:31:45,968 --> 00:31:50,897
happy to describe themselves as
white supremacists these days
467
00:31:50,897 --> 00:31:55,370
that's like nails on
a chalkboard you can't whatever.
468
00:31:55,370 --> 00:31:58,387
>> Peter Robinson: Your career
is over at that moment.
469
00:31:58,387 --> 00:32:00,499
>> Christopher Cox: Yeah,
unless you're Adolf Hitler,
470
00:32:00,499 --> 00:32:02,479
you wouldn't be talking that way.
471
00:32:02,479 --> 00:32:08,755
But white supremacism was something
that certainly Southern progressives.
472
00:32:08,755 --> 00:32:13,545
But Northern progressives,
in some instances, well,
473
00:32:13,545 --> 00:32:18,334
The Nation magazine wrote that
they were happy to see that
474
00:32:18,334 --> 00:32:23,250
black people would now not be
part of politics any longer.
475
00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:31,350
So, yeah, it's troubling, but it's real.
476
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:32,790
>> Peter Robinson: Wilson as president.
477
00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:34,630
Again, the light withdrawn.
478
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:37,510
You're talking here about
a particular cabinet meeting in 1913.
479
00:32:37,510 --> 00:32:40,790
This is just after Wilson takes
office quote, quoting you.
480
00:32:40,790 --> 00:32:44,570
It was, Postmaster General Albert
Burleson, [INAUDIBLE] he said,
481
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:48,618
time to introduce racial segregation
not only within his department but
482
00:32:48,618 --> 00:32:51,030
in all Departments of Government.
483
00:32:51,030 --> 00:32:54,380
It would be a great thing,
he said, and best for the negro.
484
00:32:54,380 --> 00:32:55,980
Wilson agreed.
485
00:32:55,980 --> 00:32:58,329
Following the April 1913 cabinet meeting,
486
00:32:58,329 --> 00:33:01,660
racial segregation spread
across the federal government.
487
00:33:01,660 --> 00:33:05,431
Methodically, the Wilson administration
removed black appointees and
488
00:33:05,431 --> 00:33:07,340
replaced them with white men.
489
00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:12,273
A 2021 study of civil service records
during the Wilson administration by
490
00:33:12,273 --> 00:33:17,654
the National Bureau of Economic Research
revealed a consistent pattern of demotions
491
00:33:17,654 --> 00:33:22,589
that enabled white supremacists in
the Democratic Party to institutionalize
492
00:33:22,589 --> 00:33:28,420
segregation and relegate black Americans
to low-paying, low prestige jobs.
493
00:33:28,420 --> 00:33:32,476
Okay, so again,
all of this is very hard to take, but
494
00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:38,020
it's important to draw this distinction,
which I think I grasp.
495
00:33:38,020 --> 00:33:43,382
But I put to you, Wilson is not
simply reflecting the mores and
496
00:33:43,382 --> 00:33:48,660
racial understanding of the country
as it stood at the time.
497
00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:51,617
He is imposing segregation.
498
00:33:51,617 --> 00:33:57,705
He is imposing racist views on a federal
structure that until that point was,
499
00:33:57,705 --> 00:34:02,965
well, it wasn't perfect, but
he moves it in a racist direction.
500
00:34:02,965 --> 00:34:04,351
>> Christopher Cox: Yes.
>> Peter Robinson: There's no political
501
00:34:04,351 --> 00:34:07,450
pressure on him from the country
at large to do this.
502
00:34:07,450 --> 00:34:08,090
Is that correct?
503
00:34:08,090 --> 00:34:13,412
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, when Boston
newspaper editor William Monroe Trotter,
504
00:34:13,412 --> 00:34:21,540
first black Phi Beta Kappa key holder from
Harvard, came and met with Woodrow Wilson.
505
00:34:21,540 --> 00:34:22,740
>> Peter Robinson: This
is Wilson as president?
506
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:23,436
>> Christopher Cox: Yeah, Wilson in
507
00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:24,458
the White House-
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
508
00:34:24,458 --> 00:34:26,834
>> Christopher Cox: To complain because
he had met with Wilson when he was
509
00:34:26,834 --> 00:34:30,660
a candidate, when he was still governor,
he met with him in Trenton.
510
00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:35,065
And Wilson gave every
impression that he was gonna be
511
00:34:35,065 --> 00:34:38,980
completely fair to the race,
as he called it.
512
00:34:40,260 --> 00:34:43,030
And Trotter walked out of that meeting.
513
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:44,950
He said he was walking on air.
514
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:49,184
So, now fast forward a little
more than a year, and
515
00:34:49,184 --> 00:34:52,729
here is Trotter in the White House saying,
516
00:34:52,729 --> 00:34:58,750
not until you occupied the White House
has anything like this happened.
517
00:34:58,750 --> 00:35:00,346
For 50 years, white people and
518
00:35:00,346 --> 00:35:04,230
black people have been working alongside
each other in the federal government.
519
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:10,133
He also recounted how Wilson's
predecessors had increasingly
520
00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:14,353
appointed black men to
increasingly important positions.
521
00:35:14,353 --> 00:35:18,983
And Wilson had done nothing,
in fact, pulled away some of those
522
00:35:18,983 --> 00:35:23,630
positions that previously black
people had been appointed to.
523
00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:27,830
So, judging Wilson by not
only his own time, but
524
00:35:27,830 --> 00:35:32,950
the previous half century,
he was reversing course.
525
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:35,830
>> Peter Robinson: All right, one other.
526
00:35:35,830 --> 00:35:41,220
Just to draw a, all of this is
hard to take, but important.
527
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:46,961
You talk about Wilson and his relationship
with the movie Birth of a Nation,
528
00:35:46,961 --> 00:35:52,100
1915 film, silent movie,
and I'm quoting you here.
529
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,830
Birth of a Nation was
punctuated with placards or
530
00:35:54,830 --> 00:35:57,140
title cards, it's a silent movie.
531
00:35:57,140 --> 00:35:59,380
One of these quoted Wilson's History
of the American People.
532
00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:05,661
The card read, in Wilson's words, at last
there had sprung into existence a great
533
00:36:05,661 --> 00:36:12,400
Ku Klux Klan to protect the Southern
country, Woodrow Wilson, close quote.
534
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,155
So, give us a moment or
two on the significance of that movie and
535
00:36:17,155 --> 00:36:21,555
Wilson's connection to the picture and
to the director,
536
00:36:21,555 --> 00:36:26,880
to what it stood for, that cultural
moment, if we may put it that way.
537
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,144
>> Christopher Cox: Yeah, so the quotation
comes from that the movie took from
538
00:36:31,144 --> 00:36:36,028
Wilson's writings,
comes from history of the American people.
539
00:36:36,028 --> 00:36:36,789
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
>> Christopher Cox: And
540
00:36:36,789 --> 00:36:42,057
it is surrounded in the history
of the American people by other
541
00:36:42,057 --> 00:36:47,345
descriptions of the Klan that are very,
very differential.
542
00:36:47,345 --> 00:36:48,665
The clan-
>> Peter Robinson: This is not plucked out
543
00:36:48,665 --> 00:36:50,010
of context unfairly.
544
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:50,890
>> Christopher Cox: No, I don't think so.
545
00:36:50,890 --> 00:36:51,530
>> Peter Robinson: Right.
546
00:36:51,530 --> 00:36:53,452
>> Christopher Cox: To the contrary.
547
00:36:53,452 --> 00:36:58,496
The reason that the movie was produced
548
00:36:58,496 --> 00:37:04,660
the way it was is that
it is based on a book.
549
00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:06,900
The book was called The Clansman.
550
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:10,548
The Clansman was a national bestseller,
and
551
00:37:10,548 --> 00:37:16,020
its author was Wilson's friend and
classmate from Johns Hopkins.
552
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:22,729
So Thomas Dixon, that was his name,
came to the White House,
553
00:37:22,729 --> 00:37:26,915
met with Wilson, said,
I've been working with D.W.
554
00:37:26,915 --> 00:37:31,099
Griffith, who, by the way,
was also son of the South,
555
00:37:31,099 --> 00:37:35,760
Confederate sympathies and
that sort of thing in his family.
556
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,575
And his view of the substance of Birth
of a Nation, the record is fairly clear,
557
00:37:41,575 --> 00:37:45,362
was the same as Dixon's and
the same as Wilson's,
558
00:37:45,362 --> 00:37:50,320
although Wilson and
Dixon express themselves very differently.
559
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,200
So they're not the same person.
560
00:37:53,720 --> 00:38:00,360
Dixon was advising the President
on Cabinet appointments and
561
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,318
urged him to hire Josephus Daniels,
562
00:38:04,318 --> 00:38:11,480
who was one of the most racist
people in the entire Wilson Cabinet.
563
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,920
That's saying a lot.
564
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:18,114
So as a favor to Thomas Dixon knowing
full well what the story was,
565
00:38:18,114 --> 00:38:21,520
because it was this national bestseller.
566
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,294
It had also been a stage play on Broadway,
and
567
00:38:24,294 --> 00:38:26,995
it ran at the Liberty Theater
in Broadway and
568
00:38:26,995 --> 00:38:31,600
had more people, I think a half million
people saw it at that one location.
569
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,160
More people than seen anything there ever.
570
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,872
And this is almost a hop, skip,
and a jump from Princeton,
571
00:38:38,872 --> 00:38:41,606
where Wilson undoubtedly saw it,
572
00:38:41,606 --> 00:38:46,480
the movie was just as controversial
as the books had been.
573
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:54,450
The books were riot breeders, the Broadway
shows more so, and the movie most of all.
574
00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:59,217
Before it it was shown in
the White House in Los Angeles,
575
00:38:59,217 --> 00:39:06,690
where it was first a premiere, the Los
Angeles City Council was horrified by it.
576
00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:09,490
The New York Board of
Censors was horrified by it.
577
00:39:09,490 --> 00:39:12,494
There are court actions hither and
yon to try and
578
00:39:12,494 --> 00:39:15,810
join its showing because it was so
horribly racist.
579
00:39:16,980 --> 00:39:20,825
And later on, after Wilson shows
this movie in the White House,
580
00:39:20,825 --> 00:39:24,260
which really boosts its publicity,
as you can imagine.
581
00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:30,389
He claimed,
when a lot of pushback finally happened,
582
00:39:30,389 --> 00:39:36,180
that he really didn't know
what the movie was about.
583
00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:40,248
But he never criticized the movie, and he
was given many opportunities to do so, and
584
00:39:40,248 --> 00:39:41,580
people begged him to do so.
585
00:39:41,580 --> 00:39:45,291
And throughout his life,
he never said a bad thing about the movie.
586
00:39:45,291 --> 00:39:49,200
>> Peter Robinson: By the way, I can't
resist noting that the man we once worked
587
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,956
for, Ronald Reagan,
born in 1911, and his father,
588
00:39:52,956 --> 00:39:57,786
who was not a man of any great education,
but his father refused to permit,
589
00:39:57,786 --> 00:40:01,731
Ronald Reagan and
his brother Moon Reagan to see that movie.
590
00:40:01,731 --> 00:40:06,172
So it's not as if it was just
properly educated people who
591
00:40:06,172 --> 00:40:08,680
understood that it was racist.
592
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,360
Ordinary people understood it as well.
593
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,439
It was controversial
throughout the country.
594
00:40:12,439 --> 00:40:16,815
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, and in the same
way that Wilson's decision to segregate
595
00:40:16,815 --> 00:40:22,621
the government turned the clock back, so
too did his sponsorship of this movie and
596
00:40:22,621 --> 00:40:26,854
the movie itself,
because the movie normalized the Klan.
597
00:40:26,854 --> 00:40:33,290
It was a big popular movie seen by many
more people than see movies today.
598
00:40:33,290 --> 00:40:36,489
Today we have television,
we have other forms of entertainment, but
599
00:40:36,489 --> 00:40:37,530
that was it back then.
600
00:40:37,530 --> 00:40:44,045
And people sat in movie theaters
that held 3,000 people and so on.
601
00:40:44,045 --> 00:40:48,056
And they had parties in
New York with society matrons,
602
00:40:48,056 --> 00:40:53,510
dressed up in clan costumes and
that sort of thing in the theaters.
603
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:56,950
Likewise, the ushers sometimes
would dress that way.
604
00:40:56,950 --> 00:41:00,450
They sold a lot of
tchotchke sorts of things.
605
00:41:00,450 --> 00:41:04,738
And in Stone Mountain, Georgia,
the founder of the modern Ku Klux Klan,
606
00:41:04,738 --> 00:41:09,253
because, remember, the Grant
administration basically did away with it.
607
00:41:09,253 --> 00:41:11,728
So it's been gone for a long time now.
608
00:41:11,728 --> 00:41:17,008
It comes back timed for
the movie's opening in Georgia,
609
00:41:17,008 --> 00:41:20,418
and so say the people who founded it.
610
00:41:20,418 --> 00:41:21,450
>> Peter Robinson: Okay, so this question.
611
00:41:21,450 --> 00:41:25,490
Sorry, I want to go on to Wilson today,
if that makes sense.
612
00:41:25,490 --> 00:41:29,128
But one last question on Wilson and
race and
613
00:41:29,128 --> 00:41:35,195
this question of following public
opinion or leading public opinion,
614
00:41:35,195 --> 00:41:39,356
of advancing the clock or
moving the clock back.
615
00:41:39,356 --> 00:41:42,499
Here's Frederick Douglass on Lincoln, and
616
00:41:42,499 --> 00:41:48,540
I'd like to ask you where Wilson fits into
this, if he's simply a direct opposite.
617
00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:51,820
Frederick Douglass on Lincoln and Lincoln.
618
00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:53,260
Douglas was cross with Lincoln.
619
00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:54,262
That's putting it mildly.
620
00:41:54,262 --> 00:41:57,217
Douglas was angry with Lincoln for many,
621
00:41:57,217 --> 00:42:02,780
many years because Lincoln was very
slow to move against slavery per se.
622
00:42:02,780 --> 00:42:08,249
Lincoln's first declared war aim is to
preserve the Union, and only until.
623
00:42:08,249 --> 00:42:11,990
Only in 1863, does he issue
the Emancipation Proclamation.
624
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:16,398
Frederick Douglass, viewed from
the genuine abolition ground, Mr.
625
00:42:16,398 --> 00:42:19,781
Lincoln seemed tardy,
cold, dull and indifferent.
626
00:42:19,781 --> 00:42:24,179
But measuring him by
the sentiment of his country,
627
00:42:24,179 --> 00:42:29,801
a sentiment he was bound as
a statesman to consult, he was swift,
628
00:42:29,801 --> 00:42:34,216
zealous, radical, and
determined close quote.
629
00:42:34,216 --> 00:42:35,430
Is Wilson just the other way around?
630
00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:36,725
Is it as simple as that?
631
00:42:36,725 --> 00:42:38,306
>> Christopher Cox: Yeah,
I have to say that because.
632
00:42:38,306 --> 00:42:42,603
Because Frederick Douglass featured so
strongly in the early days of
633
00:42:42,603 --> 00:42:46,826
the women's suffrage movement as
well as the abolition movement,
634
00:42:46,826 --> 00:42:49,655
I really formed a great
appreciation of him.
635
00:42:49,655 --> 00:42:51,531
He really is a kind of moral touchstone,
isn't he?
636
00:42:51,531 --> 00:42:54,795
In the research that I did,
I mean, what an amazing person.
637
00:42:54,795 --> 00:43:00,740
And I think he there
captures Lincoln properly,
638
00:43:00,740 --> 00:43:04,511
contextually, for all time.
639
00:43:04,511 --> 00:43:09,989
Wilson, I think if we're not
looking at issues involving race or
640
00:43:09,989 --> 00:43:15,100
gender, might fare a lot
better using that same metric.
641
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:19,980
But we know from Wilson's own writings
that he believed that a President
642
00:43:19,980 --> 00:43:22,460
is supposed to lead public opinion.
643
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:23,900
He's supposed to be muscular.
644
00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:28,860
The people are supposed to be
putty in the leaders hands.
645
00:43:28,860 --> 00:43:30,980
This is what he wrote.
646
00:43:30,980 --> 00:43:35,072
And then when it comes to this issue where
there's a great tipping point when he
647
00:43:35,072 --> 00:43:39,351
arrives in Washington, remember we had
this big suffrage parade the day before he
648
00:43:39,351 --> 00:43:41,540
was sworn into his first term.
649
00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:44,820
This enormous suffrage parade
down Pennsylvania Avenue.
650
00:43:44,820 --> 00:43:47,216
So that's his moment.
651
00:43:47,216 --> 00:43:51,353
And he held back the tide for
almost two terms.
652
00:43:51,353 --> 00:43:56,091
>> Peter Robinson: All right,
by the way, we just have to get in this,
653
00:43:56,091 --> 00:44:02,718
the final illness because of course
it's in everybody's mind today.
654
00:44:02,718 --> 00:44:07,210
Wilson's health, in late 1919 he
returns from Paris to Washington.
655
00:44:07,210 --> 00:44:08,640
I'm gonna quote you on this episode.
656
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:09,800
The light withdrawn.
657
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,040
Wilson suffered a massive stroke.
658
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:13,880
His left arm and leg were paralyzed.
659
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,600
The left side of his face drooped and
his digestive problems became acute.
660
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,760
He could no longer read,
sit in a chair to eat or sign his name.
661
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,649
Edith Wilson's wife went to extraordinary
lengths to conceal the President's
662
00:44:25,649 --> 00:44:26,740
disability.
663
00:44:26,740 --> 00:44:30,020
For over four months Wilson
remained in seclusion.
664
00:44:30,020 --> 00:44:34,527
One of Wilson's aides recorded in
his diary in late January 1920 he
665
00:44:34,527 --> 00:44:37,860
the President,
he cannot know what is going on.
666
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:42,175
He sees almost nobody and
hears almost no direct views.
667
00:44:42,175 --> 00:44:48,285
Was there ever such a situation
in our history close quote.
668
00:44:48,285 --> 00:44:53,746
So of now we have the 25th
amendment ratified in 1967,
669
00:44:53,746 --> 00:45:00,704
which is supposed to give us, lays out
quite straightforwardly the means for
670
00:45:00,704 --> 00:45:04,682
dealing with an incapacitated president.
671
00:45:04,682 --> 00:45:07,785
Are the two cases simply so different?
672
00:45:07,785 --> 00:45:10,720
Wilson's debility was extreme.
673
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,070
Joe Biden's is this
creeping incapacity of age.
674
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,360
Were the time so
different that there's no point?
675
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,330
There's nothing we can learn by
comparing the two or are there,
676
00:45:20,330 --> 00:45:22,759
is there something,
are there lessons to be drawn?
677
00:45:22,759 --> 00:45:24,880
>> Christopher Cox: Well there's
certainly cognates of one another.
678
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,122
There are health issues involved in both.
679
00:45:29,122 --> 00:45:34,086
What I'd say about the Wilson
piece of that comparison is that
680
00:45:34,086 --> 00:45:38,285
it's well known first of all
what happened to him and
681
00:45:38,285 --> 00:45:42,880
how badly he was affected
both physically and mentally.
682
00:45:44,590 --> 00:45:49,844
But you have to tack that on to his
physical absence from the country for
683
00:45:49,844 --> 00:45:50,830
six months.
684
00:45:50,830 --> 00:45:53,630
Prior to that, of course he left.
685
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:54,586
>> Peter Robinson: Because
he was in France.
686
00:45:54,586 --> 00:45:59,963
>> Christopher Cox: He left on two
occasions for roughly three months each.
687
00:45:59,963 --> 00:46:05,806
Over six months all told,
he left the United States of America, went
688
00:46:05,806 --> 00:46:12,167
to Europe at a time when transatlantic
communication was very primitive.
689
00:46:12,167 --> 00:46:16,685
There was an undersea cable and
we had Morse code and you had to tap, tap,
690
00:46:16,685 --> 00:46:18,625
tap every character and so on.
691
00:46:18,625 --> 00:46:23,221
And so all of the messages
were using the perfectly
692
00:46:23,221 --> 00:46:27,279
appropriate word, cryptic, very short.
693
00:46:27,279 --> 00:46:29,999
It's not as if you could
send a bill overseas and
694
00:46:29,999 --> 00:46:34,215
the President could decide after reading
it whether he wished to sign it or
695
00:46:34,215 --> 00:46:36,940
not, or
lengthy memo discussing any subject.
696
00:46:36,940 --> 00:46:42,081
He was basically cut off from America,
and he really was cut off
697
00:46:42,081 --> 00:46:47,513
sometimes when he was at se,
the journey took 10 days to two weeks
698
00:46:47,513 --> 00:46:52,460
each way because ship to shore
telephony was in its infancy.
699
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:56,789
And radio communication was often
either tied up by the navigators or
700
00:46:56,789 --> 00:46:59,260
disturbed by weather, what have you.
701
00:46:59,260 --> 00:47:03,220
So literally, sometimes you
just couldn't reach him at all.
702
00:47:03,220 --> 00:47:06,349
And then there's a six hour time
difference to Paris and so on.
703
00:47:06,349 --> 00:47:11,105
He was paying attention only to
the League of Nations and his personal
704
00:47:11,105 --> 00:47:15,861
items of interest in the peace
negotiations when he was over there and
705
00:47:15,861 --> 00:47:19,223
all the domestic problems
of the United States.
706
00:47:19,223 --> 00:47:22,347
We didn't have a president and Congress,
707
00:47:22,347 --> 00:47:27,134
wasn't in session because he
refused to call them into session.
708
00:47:27,134 --> 00:47:30,190
After he lost control of Congress,
he didn't want them.
709
00:47:30,190 --> 00:47:32,014
He was making recess appointments.
710
00:47:32,014 --> 00:47:36,083
He didn't have to have judges or
cabinet officers or anybody,
711
00:47:36,083 --> 00:47:37,631
voted on by the Senate.
712
00:47:37,631 --> 00:47:42,335
He didn't want them conducting
oversight of how he conducted the war.
713
00:47:42,335 --> 00:47:47,101
And so
Congress was shut down by the President.
714
00:47:47,101 --> 00:47:52,516
So here we have from essentially
715
00:47:52,516 --> 00:47:58,138
the end of 1918 until March.
716
00:47:58,138 --> 00:48:01,820
Of 1921, I almost said 2021,
717
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:06,630
the country operating without a president.
718
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:10,790
>> Peter Robinson: Wow,
should he have resigned?
719
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:11,668
>> Christopher Cox: Yes.
>> Peter Robinson: Do we hold that
720
00:48:11,668 --> 00:48:12,190
against him?
721
00:48:12,190 --> 00:48:14,642
>> Christopher Cox: Yes, and you didn't
need the 25th amendment to know that,
722
00:48:14,642 --> 00:48:15,501
there was a process.
723
00:48:15,501 --> 00:48:18,430
>> Peter Robinson: Marshall
was his vice president.
724
00:48:18,430 --> 00:48:20,070
Would he have been up to the job?
725
00:48:20,070 --> 00:48:23,030
>> Christopher Cox: Well,
I think he was nil.
726
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:24,973
Historians would say no, but
727
00:48:24,973 --> 00:48:30,450
they would have said that about
Truman if he hadn't become president.
728
00:48:30,450 --> 00:48:32,530
Sometimes people surprise us.
729
00:48:32,530 --> 00:48:36,290
I think having a sentient being in.
730
00:48:36,290 --> 00:48:39,910
In charge rather than someone
who is watching movies all day,
731
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:43,410
as Wilson was at the end would
have been a big improvement.
732
00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:44,197
>> Peter Robinson: All right,
733
00:48:44,197 --> 00:48:49,570
Barton Swaim's review of the Light
withdrawn in the Wall Street Journal.
734
00:48:49,570 --> 00:48:54,053
At the core of progressivism is
the belief that most people lack
735
00:48:54,053 --> 00:48:58,537
the wisdom to govern themselves and
require a class of educated
736
00:48:58,537 --> 00:49:03,770
elites to organize society according
to a shifting set of ideals.
737
00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:09,290
Wilson's warped ideas on race and
sex weren't departures from progressivism,
738
00:49:09,290 --> 00:49:12,410
but variant expressions of it,
close quote.
739
00:49:13,610 --> 00:49:18,754
So how much do progressives today,
Bernie Sanders,
740
00:49:18,754 --> 00:49:26,130
Alexandria Ocasio Cortez,
owe to the example of Woodrow Wilson?
741
00:49:26,130 --> 00:49:29,187
>> Christopher Cox: Well, I hope they take
as little as possible from the example of
742
00:49:29,187 --> 00:49:31,330
Woodrow Wilson on items of gender and
race.
743
00:49:32,850 --> 00:49:36,291
But progressivism writ large,
744
00:49:36,291 --> 00:49:41,890
has in the brand of
Woodrow Wilson built in.
745
00:49:41,890 --> 00:49:43,010
>> Peter Robinson: It really does,
doesn't it?
746
00:49:43,010 --> 00:49:46,216
>> Christopher Cox: Woodrow Wilson,
the brand, I'm saying,
747
00:49:46,216 --> 00:49:51,764
not because Woodrow Wilson was the best
expression of progressive ideals,
748
00:49:51,764 --> 00:49:55,578
but because he was President
of the United States and
749
00:49:55,578 --> 00:50:00,890
a lot of other progressives who didn't
agree with his elitism were not.
750
00:50:01,930 --> 00:50:07,126
So for better or for worse, what
progressivism is and what it's understood
751
00:50:07,126 --> 00:50:12,820
to be is very much influenced by Woodrow
Wilson's own approach to the thing.
752
00:50:12,820 --> 00:50:16,740
And Woodrow Wilson was
nothing if not an elitist.
753
00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:23,420
He was absolutely as Bart Swaim describes
of the view that we know best and so on.
754
00:50:23,420 --> 00:50:29,852
And when you look at his view of whether
black people should be entitled to vote or
755
00:50:29,852 --> 00:50:35,806
to participate in even normal social
arrangements in the United States,
756
00:50:35,806 --> 00:50:39,680
he believed that white men were superior.
757
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,400
And that was as obvious to him as the sun.
758
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,554
So it's probably accusing
progressivism of all of
759
00:50:48,554 --> 00:50:53,705
Wilson's personal sins to say
that his brand of elitism
760
00:50:53,705 --> 00:50:58,320
is baked into the whole
notion of progressivism.
761
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,881
I think you and I, if we had another hour,
762
00:51:01,881 --> 00:51:05,780
could come up with a long list
of progressive objectives that.
763
00:51:05,780 --> 00:51:07,060
That we think are worthwhile.
764
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:10,780
So unless we're being.
765
00:51:10,780 --> 00:51:11,500
>> Peter Robinson: Should they.
Should.
766
00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:14,365
Should, should progressives
today Harken back,
767
00:51:14,365 --> 00:51:18,820
attempt to rebrand themselves
as Teddy Roosevelt Progressives.
768
00:51:18,820 --> 00:51:21,957
>> Christopher Cox: Well, I think I never
was party to the discussions when they
769
00:51:21,957 --> 00:51:24,420
decided to go from
liberals to progressives.
770
00:51:24,420 --> 00:51:28,020
>> Peter Robinson: Yes, I thought it
was an odd choice because they're.
771
00:51:28,020 --> 00:51:30,500
>> Christopher Cox: It's sort of
intentionally picking up all this baggage.
772
00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:32,086
>> Peter Robinson: Yes.
>> Christopher Cox: There were good things
773
00:51:32,086 --> 00:51:34,990
about progressivism and
there were bad things about it.
774
00:51:34,990 --> 00:51:37,390
It's an historical thing.
775
00:51:37,390 --> 00:51:40,950
There was a progressive party,
there were progressive Republicans.
776
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:42,790
You can go look it up.
777
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:46,348
And why you would want to own all of it
when you know you're trying to represent
778
00:51:46,348 --> 00:51:48,229
yourself to a 21st century audience.
779
00:51:48,229 --> 00:51:49,270
I'm not sure.
780
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:53,430
>> Peter Robinson: All right,
let me return to Wilson's accomplishments.
781
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:57,030
He lowers tariffs,
institutes the federal income tax.
782
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:58,230
I'm not too happy about that.
783
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:59,760
But it was a big thing.
784
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,381
He establishes a central bank, he wins the
First World War, negotiates the Treaty of
785
00:52:04,381 --> 00:52:08,745
Versailles, and again, although he fails
to persuade the Senate to take us into
786
00:52:08,745 --> 00:52:13,840
the League of Nations, the League serves
as a model for the United Nations.
787
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,225
So the argument would be
that despite his flaws, and
788
00:52:18,225 --> 00:52:24,402
he was a man of his upbringing, which
was that of the post Civil War south,
789
00:52:24,402 --> 00:52:29,900
despite his flaws, he is rightly
considered a great president.
790
00:52:31,180 --> 00:52:35,220
>> Christopher Cox: Well, the question of
how to weigh Wilson, that's where I am.
791
00:52:35,220 --> 00:52:40,036
The President of the United States,
not the man necessarily, but
792
00:52:40,036 --> 00:52:45,196
the eight years he had in the Oval Office
in terms of his predecessors and
793
00:52:45,196 --> 00:52:47,580
successors as president.
794
00:52:47,580 --> 00:52:53,020
In other words, the rankings is one
that even after 14 years of research,
795
00:52:53,020 --> 00:52:57,780
I don't feel competent to address
because I have a special focus in
796
00:52:57,780 --> 00:53:03,680
writing this story that's
fundamentally about women's suffrage.
797
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,160
And on the metrics that I chose,
Wilson was not successful.
798
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,885
He was actually taking the country
in the wrong direction,
799
00:53:11,885 --> 00:53:15,920
according to the lights of people
of his own time as well as ours.
800
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:22,245
But I also had trouble squaring,
if you created the National Park Service,
801
00:53:22,245 --> 00:53:27,281
which he did, if you got the Clayton act
signed, if you did tariff reform these
802
00:53:27,281 --> 00:53:33,290
are many of these things, even creating
the Federal Reserve are procedural things.
803
00:53:33,290 --> 00:53:38,490
How do you compare that with
flunking the test on human rights?
804
00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:42,890
One is just much more morally
infused than the other.
805
00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:44,330
So it's apples and oranges.
806
00:53:44,330 --> 00:53:48,902
And I can't say, well, he did these 12
good things and these five bad things and
807
00:53:48,902 --> 00:53:53,360
come up with an algorithm that says,
therefore, you should be ranked 17th.
808
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,320
>> Peter Robinson: Okay,
you're refusing to rank him.
809
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:02,560
>> Christopher Cox: This is not for
lack of trying.
810
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,660
It's not the first time I've
been asked the question, but
811
00:54:06,660 --> 00:54:09,360
I honestly don't have
a satisfactory answer to that one.
812
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,041
>> Peter Robinson: Okay,
last question, Claire Booth Loose,
813
00:54:12,041 --> 00:54:13,810
do you remember Mrs. Loose?
814
00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:17,050
She spent her last few years
in Ronald Reagan's Washington?
815
00:54:17,050 --> 00:54:19,250
>> Christopher Cox: I do although
I did not know her personally.
816
00:54:19,250 --> 00:54:22,551
>> Peter Robinson: All right, Claire
Booth Loose used to say that history
817
00:54:22,551 --> 00:54:26,330
would give even the greatest
figures just one sentence.
818
00:54:26,330 --> 00:54:31,410
Lincoln freed the slaves,
Churchill saved Britain.
819
00:54:31,410 --> 00:54:34,890
What's the sentence for Woodrow Wilson?
820
00:54:34,890 --> 00:54:36,450
I'll give you two sentences, Chris.
821
00:54:36,450 --> 00:54:38,092
Since we've known each other for
a long time.
822
00:54:38,092 --> 00:54:38,676
>> Christopher Cox: I could be busy.
823
00:54:38,676 --> 00:54:40,094
>> Peter Robinson: All right.
>> Christopher Cox: For better or for
824
00:54:40,094 --> 00:54:42,960
worse, he brought us
into the modern world.
825
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,480
>> Peter Robinson: All right,
that is one that is wonderfully ambiguous.
826
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,719
Christopher Cox, author of Woodrow Wilson,
the Light Withdrawn.
827
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:55,440
Thank you.
828
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:55,960
>> Christopher Cox: Thank you.
829
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,840
It was great fun talking with you.
830
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,210
>> Peter Robinson: For Uncommon Knowledge,
the Hoover Institution, and Fox Nation,
831
00:55:01,210 --> 00:55:02,320
I'm Peter Robinson.
832
00:55:11,180 --> 00:55:16,664
[MUSIC]