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00:00:11.871Welcome to Unbound, the podcast where we take you on a wild ride through the world of pop culture and romance, sometimes with our rose-colored glasses off.
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00:00:20.408I am Adriana Herrera and I write romance full of people who look and sound like my people getting unapologetic happy endings.
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00:00:24.065And I'm your co-host, nikki Payne.
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00:00:31.231Black Jane Austen fangirl, author of Pride and Protest, cultural anthropologist by day and belligerent Y-Mom by night.
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00:00:33.124Yours is so much better than mine.
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00:00:37.652The truth.
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00:00:38.073All right.
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00:00:40.107So we are so excited.
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00:00:50.271We have been thinking, talking about doing this together for months now and we have I don't know like, how did we come together?
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00:01:00.575I feel like we had seen each other online, seen that there was an affinity there, that there were things, thoughts, feelings views.
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00:01:02.947Yes, we were circling each other.
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00:01:23.150We had mutual friends, friends that we loved, loved each other, and so we're like it's something, it's something about that and I knew for a fact that this could be amazing, because I think at some point a mutual friend of ours, allie Hazelwood, told me that you had done your dissertation in the Dominican Republic, where I am from.
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00:01:26.887I did, I did, and I was like this is meant to be.
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00:01:36.805This is the person who I should reach out to join me for an unhinged Completely unhinged.
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00:01:38.248We are apologizing in advance.
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00:01:49.900An unhinged journey through romance and pop culture and how those things intersect, seen from the lens of two Black women.
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00:01:59.763Yes, yes, so we know each other, but let's make sure the audience knows who we are and let's get to know us by pop culture.
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00:02:02.186I have a question for you, Adriana.
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00:02:04.088Are you ready, hit me.
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00:02:18.188You can tell a lot about a person by the first thing they ever purchased with their own funds, with their own monies, their little, the money that their parents give them, their allowance, and then you go out and purchase something that is completely you.
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00:02:25.712Can you tell me the first album, cd, single that you purchased with your own money?
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00:02:35.480I can, and it was two of them together, and I grew up in the Dominican Republic so we didn't have a lot of record stores that had like the like.
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00:02:57.312It took a little time for the things to come back in the 80s when I was growing up, but my dad was traveling for work and I gave him my money that I had saved up and placed an order for him to buy me the cassettes for Thriller and the True Blue Madonna album.
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00:02:58.760Those were the first two.
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00:03:02.344The taste, the taste, yes, and those were my first.
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00:03:12.896I don't have them anymore, but I remember when I was leaving the DR, when I was in my 20s, I still had those two cassettes in my pile of cassettes Quality.
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00:03:16.867And so I have a question for you.
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00:03:22.086Yes, also pop culture adjacent.
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00:03:26.614What was the first live concert that you went to?
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00:03:28.366First live concert.
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00:03:30.348It is a story, okay.
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00:03:35.932Imagine a 10-year-old just grooving very hard to Anita Baker.
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00:03:50.027I was at the Cynthia Woods Mitchell Pavilion and I went with all of my aunties because Anita Baker is chief auntie music and I'm 10 years old and I'm like, caught up in the rapture of love.
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00:03:57.028I did not know what the rapture of love was, but she was my first live experience and I have loved her ever since.
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00:03:58.992I absolutely adore that.
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00:04:01.102It is so I mean, and it's also so formative.
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00:04:04.105It's such an amazing artist to imprint, to Like.
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00:04:13.417This is now my standard for like what I want from like a live performance, like a live music performance.
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00:04:14.242Like we can start with.
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00:04:28.062Anita Baker, like I unfortunately started with Chicago who were kind of like washed up and somehow ended up in in like a hotel ballroom in the Dominican Republic in 1992.
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00:04:30.007And I went to see them.
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00:04:31.709I love this with my mom.
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00:04:32.531That was my first one.
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00:04:39.310But just so that we can like close the circle, what was your first album that you bought with your own money?
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00:04:41.942Oh, this is a.
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00:04:42.583This is a story.
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00:05:08.112I don't know if they had these in the Dominican Republic, but we had a little something called Columbia House Music oh yes, where you could purchase 12 CDs for just one penny and all you had to do was like promise to pay them back, like eventually, the problem with Columbia like I actually think they may be defunct because of that business model was really problematic.
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00:05:09.466It was a Ponzi scheme.
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00:05:16.853I got my it was absolutely a Ponzi scheme and so I brought my, bought my first album.
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00:05:17.814It was Brandy.
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00:05:29.750It was like the Waiting to Exhale soundtrack, which was a fantastic soundtrack, but I got it specifically for Brandy sitting up in my room, which I played forever and ever.
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00:05:31.728I just thought Brandy was the coolest person.
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00:05:37.694She was so snatched all the time with her little freestyle braids and I just loved everything about her.
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00:05:38.240She was great.
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00:05:53.524I mean, that was honestly like the golden age for like sultry, the golden age for like, like sultry, like luscious black women and like r&b.
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00:06:20.802The television in the 90s was immaculate, like so many, and I was in the dr, like I was living in the Dominican Republic, and I remember like like we had cable, obviously, and which is why I speak English, and so like part of like like living single like I don't know so many of like I feel like the very like kind of like seminal pop culture things that like really shaped how I like my entertainment.
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00:06:29.826The way I think about television came from that time and I think like Brandy is like one of those like really iconic women from that time.
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00:06:32.252Absolutely, absolutely.
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00:06:44.612And when you talk about someone like imprinting on you like Anita Baker walked so that like Toni Braxton could run Yep Right, like there was room for someone that sultry and low because of an in-banker.
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00:06:45.434Absolutely yes.
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00:06:55.367No, I mean I think that, listen, we're giving like a little bit of like a rundown of like some of the good stuff of the 90s, like Chicago notwithstanding.
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00:06:56.430Oh yeah.
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00:06:57.882Please.
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00:06:59.307I'm here for Chicago.
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00:07:05.088I love dad bands Between our dads and aunties, like we can have us a cookout.
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00:07:06.541For real.
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00:07:25.129I mean, I do feel like I was thinking about albums and I think for me growing up, I feel like the album that I always think about as the central album of my youth was Lauryn Hill, the Miseducation of Lauren Hill.
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00:07:32.923Oh, miseducation of Lauren Hill was banger beginning to end, did not pause, just went straight through.
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00:07:35.067I mean, I even know the speaking.
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00:07:37.733Yes, same, I know the words.
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00:08:12.675Spiritual soul, like pierce something in me that never like, like it really was, like it was like a watershed type of piece of art for me and so much of it is the emotion and like the love and the heart wrenching and the heartbreak and that's, and like the way that, uh, I think, like a woman of color, like a black woman, love expresses, love, talks about love, thinks about love, beautiful.
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00:08:19.968And I'm like this teenage girl, like a virgin, never been kissed, and I'm like, unsure what the balance held.
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00:08:27.435I touched my belly over, well, and I'm like, I feel you the decisions I feel you the well and I'm like, I feel you the decision, I feel you the choice.
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00:08:42.725I was 20, so I was in the midst of making a lot of bad life choices with romantic partners at that time and I felt every single word of that album like deeply.
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00:08:56.361So, yeah, I mean, I think, like I think this is a perfect segue for us to begin to talk, because I think for me, like I love, like there's so much music that's like heartbreak music that I love.
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00:09:31.556But there's a certain thing about some of those like R&B songs from that time like tony braxton, as you mentioned that like really spoke to specifically like my experience of, like how I thought about love and the way love and heartbreak felt to me in particular I think the reason why, like lauren hillyn Hill and Toni Braxton and Anita Baker, like we mentioned, imprinted on us, is because the perspective matters.
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00:09:39.815It's the reason why we felt like this was going to be a really, really compelling podcast the perspective of Black women on pop culture.
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00:09:56.576It adds an extra element of understanding and it moved us, and I think that this, what we're doing here, is we bring our perspective on to romance novels and pop culture events like movies, tv shows and TV series.
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00:09:59.568I think that the the perspective, yes.
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00:10:04.652The point of view is, I think, essential to how something affects you.
00:10:04.652 -->
00:10:09.788And we we're both romance readers have been romance readers for most of our lives.
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00:10:15.171I I think at some point we should probably do a podcast about how we became romance readers.
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00:10:22.989But, um, I started reading romance when I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old, and so I'm in my forties now.
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00:10:30.769That's a lot of romance and a lot of that romance has been about white women, written by white women, and I've loved it.
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00:10:32.133It's been like it's.
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00:10:36.149It's such an important romance, has always been such an important part of my life.
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00:11:01.905But one of the things you and I have talked about is now that we can't know that we have that there is so much more to read how, so how that lens and how, the point of view and the positionality, the, the world view of the author and the characters they write does make a difference it does.
00:11:03.889 -->
00:11:09.436It changes extensively, extensively what is understood when the reader reads something.
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00:11:18.750Sometimes I'm watching a show or reading something and I look around and I say, is everyone reading this or watching this in the same way that I'm watching this?
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00:11:30.091And as a cultural anthropologist I will say probably 100 percent know that everyone is having an experience with media that is completely kind of wrapped up in the way that they see the world.
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00:11:33.568Yes, Like their position, their identities, where they're coming from.
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00:12:13.591Like I mean thinking about again, like some of the I mean some of the books that are out now, and just being able to pick out things that are like so singularly culture is something that to I mean for both of us obviously, like we have like picked up on this, that it has been transformative for us to be able to like consume these things that are so singularly about us, and it's a great time to dive into it deeply, do deep dives into.
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00:12:15.413Yeah and ask.
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00:12:17.275So imagine, no, go ahead.
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00:12:20.761I was just going to say so.
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00:12:37.886Imagine all of our kind of quivering hearts when Shonda Rhimes, a Black woman, right, with this particular perspective, picks up an OG romance, right, like if anyone has cut their teeth in romance the way that we have.
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00:12:43.969We know that Julia Quinn has been writing romance for years and I was a fan of that Bridgerton series.
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00:12:47.523It was a fantastic series by itself.
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00:12:53.384And then when Shonda Rhimes says, oh, I'm going to pick this up, you're automatically like what is she?
00:12:53.384 -->
00:12:55.009What is she doing?
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00:12:56.214What's happening?
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00:13:01.048Because you're automatically attuned to know that the perspective in here, the perspective here, matters.
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00:13:21.206And there was a big payoff for I mean for me in terms of like the blind, casting the diverse, just being able to visually take in people of color, black women in particular like existing in that world was phenomenal.
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00:13:24.389It was just like wonderful to see.
00:13:24.389 -->
00:13:40.865And then this year, who we got, what we're gonna talk about today tell us, tell us, tell us, what we got, which, which is the like, the spinoff of the bridgerton series, queen charlotte.
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00:14:08.027so it's the backstory of Queen Charlotte, who we know from the first two seasons, who is the Black Queen of Bridgerton, and we both saw that series and were blown away shook, shooketh reborn, re healed I was.
00:14:08.106 -->
00:14:14.384I felt like I was healing and I was like being reborn at the same time.
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00:14:36.845With that, with that series, it was just phenomenal and we thought it was the perfect way to kind of launch these conversations that we want to have about the importance, the value, the impact of of gaze and lens when it comes to pop culture and romance and how they intersect, how they work together.
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00:14:47.941Something that we were talking about when we were kind of like planning is that, like there is no romance without pop, without pop culture, like romance is, is very enmeshed.
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00:14:55.774It's like, if you want to know what is happening in a moment, read a romance novel.
00:14:55.774 -->
00:14:58.504If you want to know, what's in the?
00:14:58.706 -->
00:15:10.628ether, what's in the atmosphere, what the zeitgeist is zeitgeist I love that word in a particular time, pick up a romance novel, and they and you will get like.
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00:15:17.042They always have the like, the pulse of the culture, right.
00:15:17.042 -->
00:15:43.735And so with queen charlotte, as with shonda rhimes, who knows exactly what she's doing and is also always so on point when it comes to what's timely, what's relevant, yep, it's just the perfect place for us to start having these conversations about point of view and love stories.
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00:15:47.921Can I admit something to you, adriana, please do.
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00:15:52.147I was afraid to watch this same.
00:15:52.147 -->
00:15:57.895I was like I want to like this, but I don't want to.
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00:15:58.701I do.
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00:16:00.784I was like a romance heroine, like I'll never love again.
00:16:00.784 -->
00:16:04.591I I was afraid to watch this.
00:16:04.591 -->
00:16:07.014I had read a lot of think pieces.
00:16:07.014 -->
00:16:16.019I was online, you know, watching Twitter and like watching people watch this, and I was about to stay away.
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00:16:17.481Me too.
00:16:17.481 -->
00:16:23.568I was ready to stay away, like I was okay, it's Shonda, like I'm curious.
00:16:23.568 -->
00:16:30.482I really love the character of Queen Charlotte from the first two seasons.
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00:16:33.652That actress, um, is phenomenal.
00:16:33.652 -->
00:16:35.176So I was like I want to.
00:16:35.176 -->
00:16:58.923But then the think pieces started coming out and and I am in a text chat group with a few other romance authors who are also Black women, and we were all just like ooh, like I don't want to watch something that's going to be like traumatic or that's gonna like give me like.
00:16:58.923 -->
00:17:12.613There were a lot of think pieces that were really like not like giving kind of snippets out of context and it was really making me scared that it would not be the experience that I was hoping it was.
00:17:13.921 -->
00:17:20.452And this just like speaks to this the way that Black women consume media.
00:17:20.452 -->
00:17:29.594There's this way that we almost have to like, protect our, our space when we're watching something and it's like, is this going to be okay to engage with?
00:17:29.594 -->
00:17:32.121And you almost come into situations tentatively.
00:17:32.121 -->
00:17:46.755I don't want to bring up a painful time in my past, but I was obsessed with this show called Sleepy Hollow and if you've ever watched Sleepy Hollow then you know that Black women are struggling.
00:17:46.755 -->
00:17:53.731I mean, even New Amsterdam is a great example of what they do to Black women and their joy and their story and their arcs.
00:17:55.020 -->
00:17:58.391We were scammed, we were hoodwinked, we were bamboozled.
00:17:58.391 -->
00:18:03.664Yes, yes, yes, we were scammed, hoodwinked.
00:18:03.664 -->
00:18:06.449Sc were scammed, scammed and bamboozled.
00:18:07.590 -->
00:18:08.172They hurt us.
00:18:08.172 -->
00:18:09.213They truly did.
00:18:09.213 -->
00:18:09.775They hurt us.
00:18:09.775 -->
00:18:11.005We should do another episode.
00:18:11.005 -->
00:18:17.733If I say the word Sleepy Hollow, in a certain group of people they're just like oh you know, everything just explodes.
00:18:17.733 -->
00:18:38.452But yeah, and it's because of that that I was treading very lightly on this, of that, um, that I was treading very lightly on this, I'm like I don't want to see myself, like fall in love with a story, with a character, for them to decide that she's expendable to be hurt or to have and like and this is something going off of the experiences that we have in the past.
00:18:38.480 -->
00:18:58.339Like we have a large body of evidence of the kinds of stories that we have been served, specifically like when it's like period pieces of how black women are portrayed in those stories and a lot of it is a lot of trauma.
00:18:58.339 -->
00:19:21.628And so I did not want like I just didn't want to be disappointed because I was thinking if this ends up being where, like, the two first stories were able to be okay, and then the story that is like centering Black women is going to be like a lot of trauma and a lot of strife and a lot of struggle, then that's going to be like really hurtful to me.
00:19:21.628 -->
00:19:30.243Like really hurtful to me.
00:19:30.243 -->
00:19:33.115And so, thankfully, one of my friends bravely was like I'm gonna watch the first episode and I'll report back.
00:19:33.134 -->
00:19:35.761I'm just gonna sit and watch it brave soul and I was like, okay, just let us know.
00:19:35.761 -->
00:19:41.661And she was like y'all, I loved it, I'm gonna watch the second one like I have.
00:19:41.661 -->
00:19:44.387She was like I love and she watched like the first.
00:19:44.387 -->
00:19:54.355I mean, if you have watched the first of Bridgerton seasons, you know that it is very easy to sit down and watch the first episode and just watch all the episodes and like one sitting.
00:19:54.776 -->
00:19:59.778So she ended up watching like the first three and by the third, she like by the third episode, she was like all in.
00:19:59.778 -->
00:20:06.952She was like this is phenomenal, I love everything about it so far and the romance is like hitting.
00:20:06.952 -->
00:20:08.902So I was like, okay, I'll do it.
00:20:08.902 -->
00:20:15.835And then, thankfully, um like I, I watched it and I absolutely loved it.
00:20:15.835 -->
00:20:23.962I absolutely loved it, and we are going to talk about all the reasons why at length oh yes, same thing happened to me.
00:20:24.003 -->
00:20:33.041There was a scout who went out ahead of us and said I'm going to watch this, and then she came back to report it is good and then, like everyone in our group, watched it.
00:20:33.844 -->
00:21:03.151Yeah, yeah, and I mean it's a kind of a testament to just how much we have been hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray by like other shows that are promise us like a black female lead with like a love story, and then we end up like on the floor that, knowing that it was Shonda Rimes, we still had our doubts, we did, and Shonda Rimes, like can deliver.
00:21:04.001 -->
00:21:06.460She has before she she does, Like has before she does.
00:21:06.460 -->
00:21:11.771She gave us that one scene of Annalise Keaton taking off that wig on primetime TV.
00:21:11.771 -->
00:21:15.769I mean, that was the wig pull-off heard around the world.
00:21:16.269 -->
00:21:22.608Yeah, I mean Shonda, and that is again what like?
00:21:22.608 -->
00:21:45.893Just like having that experience of having been disappointed, like we really are in that place where, like we don't want to be disappointed again with television or a romance that ends up not doing what we needed to do, and with this one, honestly, like I I mean I have like one note for that entire show.
00:21:47.319 -->
00:21:50.586Ooh Ooh, let's start at the beginning.
00:21:50.586 -->
00:21:54.641How did you like the way we were introduced to this character?
00:21:56.263 -->
00:22:06.740I loved it and I think that it set the set, the tone for what that show was going to be, which is why I mean I love the romance in the show.
00:22:06.740 -->
00:22:09.044I truly thought it was perfect.
00:22:09.044 -->
00:22:31.761But what I love the most about this show was that it was centering women's lives, specifically Black women and their agency, how they negotiated it, how they got it, how they protected it, how they negotiated it.
00:22:32.321 -->
00:22:53.532And so, to me, how they introduced us to Charlotte in that moment, where she literally is like about to be sold into a marriage, and how she reacts and how she like, how she takes off from there, to me was just like perfect.
00:22:55.819 -->
00:22:56.882Okay, tell me why.
00:22:56.882 -->
00:23:18.048This is a scene that stood out to me as well, because there was something so impotent about her anger that she overhears her brother signing her off in marriage and she overhears it just kind of by happenstance, by serendipity, and she can't say I will not marry.
00:23:18.048 -->
00:23:19.666She can't say I cannot do this.
00:23:19.666 -->
00:23:22.469She can't say like this won't happen.
00:23:22.469 -->
00:23:25.519She can't say like this won't happen.
00:23:25.519 -->
00:23:34.839She just pushes over an expensive piece of art to show that she is there, to show that she is enraged and to show that she is like alive and an actual person.
00:23:34.839 -->
00:23:41.311And to me that was it's honestly the cry of like so many women of color is like.
00:23:41.311 -->
00:23:49.226I am here, I see this happening and sometimes my rage is impotent and that's like I feel like that's.
00:23:49.226 -->
00:23:51.472That was something that stuck with me for that very reason.
00:23:51.519 -->
00:23:52.382Yeah, same.
00:23:52.382 -->
00:24:08.305And I mean even like that monologue that she gives when they're in the carriage, and like in the first episode, um, they are like going to where she's basically going to go get married off to the you know King of England.
00:24:08.305 -->
00:24:27.063Sight unseen just gets there to be married and just talking about what she's wearing, and like she's wearing a corset that if she moves the wrong way like it'll puncture her lung, and like just she has a line, that's great, that just like oh, the joys of being a woman Like she's.
00:24:27.063 -->
00:24:30.406Like I am dressed up, I'm getting sold off to this guy.
00:24:30.559 -->
00:25:03.746I've never seen him Like I'm suspicious that something's up with this guy, because like we're this like tiny little place in the middle of nowhere in Germany and how did I end up being the one that he wants to marry Like something out of nowhere in Germany, and how did I end up being the one that he wants to marry Like something is clearly wrong here and again to me, just her like her, giving us that sense that, like she's no dummy, she could stand up for herself if she's allowed to do so and she is aware of like her situation, like her self-awareness.
00:25:03.746 -->
00:25:12.553I think that to me, is something that is so invaluable and I get so much out of a heroine that is self-aware.
00:25:14.020 -->
00:25:27.069Oh, here's why I fell in love with her in episode one, and one of the things that they do with her in like clothing is like she's sitting there like in the carriage, trying not to move, and it's.
00:25:27.069 -->
00:25:31.182She gives this fantastic monologue, like you mentioned, but this it's about constriction.
00:25:31.182 -->
00:25:37.926It's about her being unable to move out of the position that she's in and that she is angry about it, right?
00:25:37.926 -->
00:25:42.082So she's doing two things she's talking about clothes and she's talking about herself, right.
00:25:42.082 -->
00:26:09.744And finally, at the end, when she's like going to make this choice, trying to decide about whether she's going to go over the fence or stay, when she decides to stay and not go over the fence, she changes outfits, she changes clothes, and I think that says something about what she wants her life to be either full of constriction or full of choices that she's making and having her own agency.
00:26:09.859 -->
00:26:18.729Yes, and that's also something that I loved, I mean again to me, shonda Rhimes was giving us a lot of layers.
00:26:18.729 -->
00:26:28.695I think, if you almost like, if you watch it like, I feel like this is the kind of show that you need to watch more than once because you could miss some of the things that she's trying to do.
00:26:28.695 -->
00:26:42.431Because, like, I feel like one of the things that she talks a lot about and specifically for women of color is, like black women and brown women, is that we learn very early on that you have to be pragmatic and you have the choice.
00:26:42.431 -->
00:26:47.462You have to make the choices that you can when you can and you cannot hesitate.
00:26:47.462 -->
00:26:51.836Have to make the choices that you can when you can and you cannot hesitate.
00:26:51.836 -->
00:27:05.076Yep, and I think that like that's part of like she's like again, like the moment she makes the decision that she's going to go through that marriage, she like draws the line in the sand, like, okay, I'm gonna do this, but I'm going to wear the dress that I want to wear yeah, yeah.
00:27:06.017 -->
00:27:15.926and there's this one scene that was like the kind of beginning of a girl friendship, where Lady Danbury looks up at her from the rafters.
00:27:15.926 -->
00:27:22.897You can almost see that character make a decision to be about that other woman.
00:27:22.897 -->
00:27:25.520Woman, right, like you could almost see it wash over her.
00:27:25.520 -->
00:27:43.816And I think sometimes it can take that like for a Black woman to look up and say like, okay, I see this one person in this situation that we could never hope to be in and I'm going to do whatever I can and root for this person to make sure that they kind of stay where they are.
00:27:43.816 -->
00:27:46.897So there was this moment of like I see you and I'm going to see about this.
00:27:46.897 -->
00:27:47.233I mean, and I think I mean that's a kind of stay where they are.
00:27:47.233 -->
00:27:48.913So there was this moment of like I see you and I'm gonna, I'm gonna see about this.
00:27:49.236 -->
00:28:13.117I mean, and I and I think I mean that's a kind of great segue to go on into the piece of like we talked about the first couple of Bridgerton series or having seen the first two seasons, and one of the things that Shonda did with the series that is not part of like the original text is that she created this world where, like, black people and people of color were like part of the aristocracy.
00:28:13.778 -->
00:28:19.614And so in queen charlotte she kind of gives us the context or how that happened.
00:28:19.614 -->
00:28:47.539And it happened because king george married queen King George married Queen Charlotte, who in the series is a Black woman, and so part of like how Shonda kind of gave us, like rendered that for us, was putting Lady Danbury in the scene who was like basically there to look out for these people of color who were all of a sudden made aristocrats and made nobility.
00:28:47.539 -->
00:29:22.755And to me that like that piece of the story is to me, I think, the key of like how stories with Black women at the center are, I feel like singular or not singular, but like very like it's a theme that I feel like is a common one in stories about Black communities or Brown communities is the piece of you can't just think of yourself and your own.
00:29:22.755 -->
00:29:31.247Survival, like survival for a marginalized group, isn't an individual thing.
00:29:31.247 -->
00:29:39.303It's gotta be survival of the like, of the community, of the collective, and so lady.
00:29:39.522 -->
00:29:42.390oh my gosh, this is, this is fantastic.
00:29:42.390 -->
00:29:51.464I just want to bring in like a literary example of this One of my favorite books, canon at this point, is the Color Purple.
00:29:51.464 -->
00:30:13.594And one of the first mistakes that Sophia, who was this really spirited, lively woman, the first mistakes that she makes in friendship to Celie, is that when Harpo is asking her for advice, you know about what to do, not Harpo.
00:30:13.594 -->
00:30:24.792But like she's asking for advice and Sophia says, well, you should beat her.
00:30:24.792 -->
00:30:29.932And she's just she's essentially saying, like this is my experience, this is what I know.
00:30:30.814 -->
00:30:40.061And then when she comes back to her friend, her friend asks her you know this, this wounded question, you know to say, like why would you do this to me?
00:30:40.061 -->
00:30:41.171Like why would you say this?
00:30:41.171 -->
00:30:47.135And Sophia did not even know, right, that it was not an okay thing to suggest.
00:30:47.135 -->
00:31:16.459And the reason why I bring this up is that, like the extent to which having a character in who understands, right, that you cannot live and think about yourself as the only person having this experience, and it was one of the last times that Sophia kind of thought about only herself and her own experiences she ends up kind of growing as a character, but that was her biggest flaw.
00:31:16.459 -->
00:31:20.506Right Is that she was about Sophia, you know.
00:31:21.068 -->
00:32:08.372Yeah, and the piece of like, and I mean like I talk about this a lot in terms of like what, how I write feminism in my books like I think one of the things that has been the most detrimental about the feminist movement is this idea of like gender equality without like equity in like other like systems of oppression, like this idea that if women are able to get in the room with the men and like play their games, that somehow we're going to gain ground and like what we do is we're just like pawns of, like a system that's not meant for us to thrive in.
00:32:08.372 -->
00:32:29.123I think, yes, like that's something that like it's very clear to me that like shonda rhimes is functioning from a place, at least in this story of and I mean if she does that also in like scandal, or like you know, olivia pope just like takes down like sexual predators or whatever.
00:32:29.123 -->
00:32:39.224But it's the piece of like, lady Danbury, like being there to remind Queen Charlotte, like you are the first of your kind.
00:32:39.224 -->
00:32:41.478We are all depending on you.
00:32:41.478 -->
00:32:43.733This is all very tenuous.
00:32:43.733 -->
00:32:58.904They gave us these titles, this land, this security, this generational wealth because of you, and if you don't play your card right, we will lose it, and then we will lose this.
00:32:58.904 -->
00:33:08.901This like one thing that could make everything different for generations to come, and she doesn't let her lose sight of that.
00:33:09.651 -->
00:33:10.752And Lady Danbury, like.
00:33:10.752 -->
00:33:34.502I feel like that's one of the things I love about this show, specifically that Lady Danbury, like, is faced with difficult choices where she has to choose between what she wants for herself or the things that will allow her to have power that she can use, and she always makes the choice that benefits more than just her.
00:33:34.502 -->
00:33:39.141So stay with us, because we're just getting started.
00:33:39.141 -->
00:33:44.240The myths are unraveling y'all, and what we find beneath might just change everything.
00:33:46.451 -->
00:33:46.692Y'all.
00:33:46.692 -->
00:33:50.550I am so excited to sit down with Amanda Rae Prescott today.
00:33:50.550 -->
00:33:57.635Amanda is a freelance entertainment journalist on the Bridgerton Beat and she's here to give us the inside scoop on all things Bridgerton.
00:33:57.635 -->
00:34:02.752Her specialty is tracking UK TV with an eye to racial diversity discourse.
00:34:02.752 -->
00:34:11.606She's a regular contributor to Den of Geek and her work can also be found at GBH Drama Club, history Today and Doctor who magazine.
00:34:11.606 -->
00:34:18.684Her scholarly articles yes, she's a scholar have appeared in ABO Journal and the Journal of Popular Television.
00:34:18.684 -->
00:34:26.344Amanda Ray has also been a guest on NPR and podcasts like Reality Bomb, wibbly, wobbly and the Thing About Austin.
00:34:26.344 -->
00:34:29.490She currently lives and works in Brooklyn, new York.
00:34:29.490 -->
00:34:32.378Amanda, thank you for joining us.
00:34:32.438 -->
00:34:33.360I'm excited to be here.
00:34:33.360 -->
00:34:39.858I have kind of listened to y'all off and on, so I'm like glad to finally be here, yay.
00:34:41.019 -->
00:34:51.335Okay, amanda, we have to start off with the hard-hitting questions, as you know, know, okay, the first thing that we want to know is what was the first piece of music?
00:34:51.335 -->
00:35:00.967It can be a concert, it can be an lp, it can be a cassette what was the first piece of music that you spent amanda ray's hard-earned dollars on?
00:35:00.967 -->
00:35:05.172Your, not your parents, your money okay, so this is gonna sound.
00:35:05.193 -->
00:35:08.096I'm going to date myself a lot here.
00:35:08.096 -->
00:35:10.938I'll buy a lot, buy like a whole lot.
00:35:10.938 -->
00:35:22.715So in whatever year Smash Mouth's All Star came out, I bought that album, which is money Wow.
00:35:22.715 -->
00:35:31.052Yeah, so that was like 19,.
00:35:31.052 -->
00:35:31.213What?
00:35:31.213 -->
00:35:32.719Eight, seven, something like that.
00:35:32.719 -->
00:35:34.304The one was um brian satcher orchestra is a dirty boogie.
00:35:34.324 -->
00:35:38.014So that was the second album I was gonna say tell us about that, like a little bit about that journey.
00:35:38.014 -->
00:35:40.641Did british music get you into british tv?
00:35:41.143 -->
00:35:44.054or so.
00:35:44.054 -->
00:35:49.061Here's a funny thing I was always into brit British TV because I grew up without cable in the 90s.
00:35:50.523 -->
00:35:51.764Yeah, PBS right.
00:35:52.125 -->
00:35:53.112Yeah, so PBS.
00:35:53.112 -->
00:36:01.510Like I saw Alex Kingston's boobs at a probably tender age when I was able to really start like going all the way into, like being attached to.
00:36:01.510 -->
00:36:06.782It was oddly enough around when House came out, so yeah.
00:36:06.782 -->
00:36:07.974I went.
00:36:09.012 -->
00:36:18.978Can I also like clock this, but it's interesting that House, which is actually an adaptation of Sherlock, right it is.
00:36:19.019 -->
00:36:19.981Yeah, it is.
00:36:19.981 -->
00:36:20.302Yeah.
00:36:20.302 -->
00:36:20.722That's the thing.
00:36:20.722 -->
00:36:24.157Like a lot of people I don't think clocked that at first that it was a Sherlock adaptation.
00:36:24.157 -->
00:36:43.393I did not see the full version of Jeremy Brett's Sherlock until like, which was what they were kind of basing it on until like way after, like the Cumberbatch era one and the country happened Netflix and Amazon in their early days kind of just had a lot of BBC stuff on there and it kind of slowly went away, licensing and all that.
00:36:43.393 -->
00:36:46.793So like not during COVID, like we have all these billion streamers.
00:36:46.793 -->
00:36:51.603There was a lot of time to like for me to go back and like look at the quote-unquote classics and touch notes.
00:36:51.603 -->
00:37:01.300I went back and re-watched a whole bunch of the uh mid, a whole bunch of all the jane austen's I went through as one does as one does, as one, all the dickens ones I went through.
00:37:01.380 -->
00:37:14.380I went through um, several other, um, like you know, and then so I ended up finding new things to like in that list of of new things to like yes, it is virginia.
00:37:14.501 -->
00:37:14.621It's.
00:37:14.621 -->
00:37:18.840Virginia was on my list in terms of like, I'm going to cover this as a journalist list.
00:37:18.840 -->
00:37:20.565It started with it start.
00:37:20.565 -->
00:37:23.994I talked about blogging about down abbey um, the big one.
00:37:23.994 -->
00:37:36.373The next big one after that was poldark um, I kind of had a bunch of yeah, tumblr, twitter blogs getting kicked out of random groups for stirring trouble and uncomfortable references.
00:37:36.373 -->
00:37:37.996That's honestly where I really started.
00:37:37.996 -->
00:37:43.476The diversity kind of work on was amanda, isn't that how I met you?
00:37:43.556 -->
00:37:47.233we were getting kicked out of that jane austen group well, that's the story.
00:37:47.273 -->
00:37:50.141So this is where this where the journalism part of me story comes in.
00:37:50.141 -->
00:37:56.422So around 2015 or so, I decided to go to grad school for journalism.
00:37:56.422 -->
00:38:04.016So I went to Columbia Journalism School, as one does when you're like I need to pad my resume and get a new skill, so that's what I did.
00:38:04.016 -->
00:38:11.235So I literally used my Downton Abbey blog in my application to Columbia and it worked somehow, I know right.
00:38:11.456 -->
00:38:14.278So, yes, there you go, kids.
00:38:15.871 -->
00:38:17.115I watched Phil Dark a lot.
00:38:17.115 -->
00:38:19.858Then I went online and started talking to other fans about it.
00:38:19.858 -->
00:38:25.748Had a problem, because this was the word of like.
00:38:25.748 -->
00:38:48.282Okay, there was a lot of older white women on this group and then a lot of older women of color who are probably from more conservative backgrounds oh yeah and it's the story has some misogyny, old time misogyny mixed with like world war 2, post world war 2 era misogyny.
00:38:48.235 -->
00:38:49.248But of course I'mny mixed with like world war ii, post-war war ii era misogyny.
00:38:49.248 -->
00:38:51.521But of course I'm trying to start talking so many issues with fans.
00:38:51.521 -->
00:38:56.235It was very obvious that, a they had very little understanding of like anything related to feminism at all.
00:38:56.235 -->
00:39:05.940It was a lot b uh, oddly enough, um, a whole, like whole dark, like gray area consent rape scene.
00:39:05.940 -->
00:39:11.974A lot of the older women did not understand why that was a problem, because they're like, well, it was in the books, that's how it would have been back then.
00:39:11.974 -->
00:39:22.650I'm like sure about that, yeah, and I'm like, well, obviously they have to go with the flow of the books because, I mean, they have authors of state to follow and all that.
00:39:22.650 -->
00:39:24.096But I'm like, yeah, this is a problem.
00:39:24.994 -->
00:39:37.282And I got constantly on to fight some people in these groups because they were like not, and another thing too, on top of that is they hated the female lead of the show because it's like oh wait, how dare you say the wife has a point?
00:39:37.282 -->
00:39:39.353I'm like, how like, how dare you defend Imelda?
00:39:39.353 -->
00:39:40.739I'm like what do you mean?
00:39:40.739 -->
00:39:43.670And then I got called a lesbian a couple times for defending her.
00:39:43.670 -->
00:39:44.773I'm like what.
00:39:44.773 -->
00:39:51.335I'm like what is happening here not that that's even an insult, I'm like what.
00:39:51.335 -->
00:40:03.693I also think that all of those learning that like how people hide what they really want to say and like how people frame arguments has actually prepared me for more recent things.
00:40:03.693 -->
00:40:14.036If you look at outlander and how Outlander develops and how Outlander the fandom reacts and changes the books it made to the TV show, there's a lot of similarities with Bridgerton.
00:40:14.036 -->
00:40:20.697So between Outlander and Poldark it has actually both of those prepared me for Bridgerton.
00:40:20.697 -->
00:40:29.755But of course there's one step in between Hamilton fandom Older white people react to Hamilton.
00:40:33.353 -->
00:40:34.257My current children.
00:40:34.257 -->
00:40:38.157When they looked in the history books, they were shocked and I'm being so serious.
00:40:38.157 -->
00:40:41.434They were shocked that the founding fathers were white.
00:40:41.434 -->
00:40:44.155They were like what is this?
00:40:44.155 -->
00:40:46.096They had no idea.
00:40:47.050 -->
00:40:48.403That's how I was, mommy J, the reason why I mentioned what is this?
00:40:48.403 -->
00:40:48.391Like?
00:40:48.391 -->
00:40:48.726They had no idea.
00:40:48.635 -->
00:40:57.018That's all, mommy jay so the reason why I mentioned hamilton because hamilton actually is important for another factor in terms of like the way people talk about bridgerton the costume issues.
00:40:57.880 -->
00:41:09.512Like I went on facebook one day trying to figure out how, like, what patterns are she used for the hamilton costumes and people were feeling a kind of a way about you shouldn't make costumes from hamilton, they're wrong.
00:41:09.512 -->
00:41:18.161But I'm like but wait a second, you work at a museum, I'm just gonna go to comic-con and I've seen other people asking these questions and they get thrown out of these groups.
00:41:18.161 -->
00:41:21.398So I was like, look the bridget, and people are doing the same thing.
00:41:21.398 -->
00:41:29.853When people want to ask, like, I want to look like kate, I want to like, y'all are doing the same thing right now when people want to ask about penelope's outfits.
00:41:29.853 -->
00:41:39.878So that's where writing about the pitfalls of outlander in season one of bridgerton is what really prepared me for this current discourse.
00:41:39.878 -->
00:41:50.836Also seeing people immediately being nasty about the race bending and harassing actors of color online and all that.
00:41:50.836 -->
00:41:58.657I was ready because of all the previous experience and, of course, a little thing in between season three, there's the Sanditon fandom.
00:41:59.340 -->
00:42:00.282Sanditon fandom.
00:42:00.282 -->
00:42:06.175I was going to bring up Sanditon too, because that was also an interesting one as well.
00:42:06.175 -->
00:42:27.409I don't have earrings, but I'm like taking them off I mean it's interesting we were talking bridgerton, sanditon and miss garland and the duke for me are kind of like all in the same package they all came around the same time yeah, and it's interesting to note too that two of those shows are masterpiece tvs shows.
00:42:27.429 -->
00:42:32.945I have a sneaky feeling masterpiece was not ready for the fandom aspect of it.
00:42:32.945 -->
00:42:35.512They were ready to tell people to watch the show.
00:42:35.512 -->
00:42:48.284They were ready to, like you know, fundraise and stuff, but they I mean I've met a bunch of the masterpiece folks um now through freelancing and they really don't know the wild west.
00:42:48.284 -->
00:43:06.822All three of them have attracted an audience that is not used to romance narratives and in a case of escargot, I would argue that the romance was probably a second or tertiary thought to the script.
00:43:07.202 -->
00:43:14.579I agree that I think the show creators the romance aspect was a second or tertiary thought.
00:43:14.579 -->
00:43:21.929The problem was the chemistry between Stuart Martin and Kate was explosive.
00:43:21.929 -->
00:43:46.264From the first episode I mean that man growled all the time Right and so From the first episode, yeah, I mean that man growled all the time, yeah, right, yeah and so, like I imprinted on that show and he's left the show now, like they announced in the end of the last season that he was not coming back, which is, you know, like I think the fandom that it gained through the romance I think is now gone, which is sad.
00:43:46.264 -->
00:43:53.110But like to me those three, like Theo James in the Sanditon first season, also just that.
00:43:53.150 -->
00:43:56.237man was like climbing on top of carriages.
00:43:56.237 -->
00:43:57.192I mean.
00:43:57.192 -->
00:43:59.514On the run to Rent the.
00:43:59.534 -->
00:44:01.255Green it was giving us everything.
00:44:01.255 -->
00:44:05.291Yeah, so the people who are now realizing that Virginia Phantom is a problem like y'all.
00:44:05.291 -->
00:44:08.181This has been a conversation for a while on multiple levels.
00:44:09.070 -->
00:44:14.277I mean so like when I was harassing Regé for being ungrateful, I was like, no, this conversation's been done.
00:44:14.277 -->
00:44:15.498Been there, done that.
00:44:15.498 -->
00:44:17.474It's now extra nasty because of race.
00:44:17.474 -->
00:44:22.137But like I call it the period drama male actor.
00:44:22.137 -->
00:44:27.097When they have to, like, leave the period dramas, I call it um witness protection.
00:44:27.097 -->
00:44:31.885Yeah, they have to just be.
00:44:31.885 -->
00:44:42.710And now there's a new one for bridget and witness protection, because clearly people have been awful and horrible to very to all, to pretty much all the actors of color.
00:44:42.710 -->
00:44:52.626I mean there's reports um last year, I think, of Rue Barger playing Marina said that they drove her to suicidal ideation because they were harassing her on Instagram and TikTok.
00:44:54.030 -->
00:44:56.795So did you find I mean, I have a question given.
00:44:56.795 -->
00:45:04.414Like one of the episodes we've talked about is Queen Charlotte, the woman was the person of color.
00:45:04.414 -->
00:45:06.940Like have you found that?
00:45:06.940 -->
00:45:15.539Like the discourse, let's say, with Queen Charlotte, and perhaps even season two, where it was Simone Ashley and Jonathan Bailey?
00:45:15.539 -->
00:45:24.766Like did you find it different than season one, where the person of the lead was like a man, that was a person of color, did you?
00:45:24.786 -->
00:45:25.130find it different.
00:45:25.130 -->
00:45:26.534So here's the.
00:45:26.534 -->
00:45:28.543There's a couple of through lines through all the seasons.
00:45:28.543 -->
00:45:28.650Here's the.
00:45:28.650 -->
00:45:31.679There's a couple of through lines through all the seasons and then there's a couple of differences.
00:45:32.730 -->
00:45:43.568For season one, I think a lot of the anti-Bridgerton discourse came from the fact that people were expecting a white man to play Duke Correct, people were not really.
00:45:43.568 -->
00:45:47.432People were not really expecting that.
00:45:47.432 -->
00:45:51.302And then people were sad when he decided you know what?
00:45:51.302 -->
00:45:54.318I have other opportunities, I'm gonna pursue them.
00:45:54.318 -->
00:45:54.880You know what?
00:45:54.880 -->
00:45:55.420I'm gone.
00:45:55.420 -->
00:46:03.378And women I feel like there was a certain type of fan who found wish fulfillment through Simon and then they could not let that go.
00:46:03.378 -->
00:46:09.458And, of course, I think, a lot of the other, the people who were not happy season one, obviously because they did not get.
00:46:09.458 -->
00:46:10.099They did not.
00:46:10.099 -->
00:46:20.014The whole simon daphne rape dynamic was not fixed in the show, although it looks like people might have wanted that fixed and maybe it's likely that quinn and other people pushed back on that.
00:46:20.014 -->
00:46:22.802So there was mostly that commentary around season one.
00:46:22.802 -->
00:46:25.954But a lot of people were like well, I like season one, let's see what happens next.
00:46:26.574 -->
00:46:30.079Season two to me was more divisive for two reasons.
00:46:30.079 -->
00:46:35.695Number one you had a lot of people, the love triangle factor, which was extended through the books.
00:46:35.695 -->
00:46:52.621Number two the fact that simone ashley and taritha chandran were getting like pitted against each other in terms of promotion and people not realizing on taritha's side that she's not the lead, she's the antagonist, because people really thought she was elite.
00:46:52.621 -->
00:47:01.798I think mixed into that discourse with all the usual racism was a lot of when I would look at stuff like other people of color.
00:47:01.798 -->
00:47:06.898There was a lot of interesting like cast stuff in there because they're you're South Asian.
00:47:06.898 -->
00:47:09.853I'm like this is looking a little weird to me as an American.
00:47:09.853 -->
00:47:13.851I'm like that's not my area, but this looks y'all hate each other.
00:47:13.851 -->
00:47:16.960I'm quite it wasn't so wild.
00:47:16.960 -->
00:47:24.670But later somebody explained to me that apparently Simone Ashley comes from like was like a self-starter, and then Teresa's like family's, more well connected in England.
00:47:24.670 -->
00:47:30.340So it was a lot like not just the like cast system and the cast of them and in class stuff in england as well.
00:47:30.340 -->
00:47:31.202So like it was.
00:47:31.202 -->
00:47:35.099And then I think some of so much with this french way.
00:47:35.119 -->
00:47:41.289I think we're more worried in the industry, where I felt like the fans were hating on her, but it's not that they didn't realize they didn't read the books.
00:47:41.289 -->
00:47:52.103They're like simone's the lead, kate's the lead, and then then a lot of discourse around season two turned into they ruined our characters because we don't get enough kate and anthony screen time.
00:47:52.103 -->
00:47:59.949And that has continued into season three in terms of critiques on the show, along with your usual racist nonsense.
00:47:59.949 -->
00:48:02.094And then, of course, you have the folks who where.
00:48:02.094 -->
00:48:12.226What I found interesting about queen charlotte was that there was less fandom discourse in terms of like, in terms of everything except lady danbury's backstory.
00:48:12.226 -->
00:48:15.195Like I noticed, the bridger named fandom was pretty okay with it.
00:48:15.195 -->
00:48:31.795Only unless for because you know it is most that material is not in the books it was all shonda and it was all shonda created it was all, shonda, it was all because lady danbury was just the like, stern, older mother figure in the con.
00:48:32.255 -->
00:48:37.416In most of the books she really didn't have a lot of plot other than getting angry at people and like banging her cane.
00:48:37.416 -->
00:48:45.041Because by the time the older the later books the series queen charlotte is deceased historically right yeah but like.
00:48:45.041 -->
00:48:46.010So that's the other thing too.
00:48:46.010 -->
00:48:55.715Bergeron has a kind of a timeline problem in that regard as well, because at some point she she's gotta go she's gotta go well, we'll see and so is her husband.
00:48:55.755 -->
00:49:18.137So like I think queen charlotte was less drama because people are I mean, yes, you have your usual bad gaggle racist being annoyed, but I'm like there was not much of the ber burgerton canon plot line to really be angry about, because most that was all history or shonda just adding stuff in the whole explaining why how racism works in burgerton society.
00:49:19.039 -->
00:49:22.313People like, okay, fine, this is not we, this is not really.
00:49:22.313 -->
00:49:26.961I think queen shaw was kind of a calm period of animosity enough, except for the interesting.
00:49:26.961 -->
00:49:36.815I had not thought about that, except for the Lady Danbury storyline, which I could see why people had problems with it, because people felt like it was a lot of trauma on a darker-skinned actor.
00:49:36.815 -->
00:49:41.494Of course, my POV, I kind of agree with that.
00:49:41.494 -->
00:50:04.112But I also feel like, historically speaking, setting up the fact that women would have been in these awful range of marriages is kind of important because it yeah people's motivations on a marriage market and I think, yeah, I mean I couldn't, I could see why people would have wanted a change on that or like just thinking that like she, you know, should have had like an epic romance as well but, it's such.
00:50:04.351 -->
00:50:04.693It's such.
00:50:04.693 -->
00:50:26.498I mean I'm sorry just to say like to me Lady Danbury is like such a Shonda Rhimes, olivia Pope type of character, like an operator, you know what I mean, like she gets in the room.
00:50:26.498 -->
00:50:30.001That are kind of based on Julia Quinn's work.
00:50:30.001 -->
00:50:35.806To me Lady Danbury is like a Shondaland plant.
00:50:35.806 -->
00:50:36.547You know, what I mean.
00:50:36.547 -->
00:50:49.166But because it was her own season, to me it made complete sense that Lady Danbury's story was what it was, because it was straight out of Shonda Rhimes' head.
00:50:52.731 -->
00:50:54.197Where people are not fine.
00:50:54.197 -->
00:50:59.893Now is this season, because here's something to keep in mind Bridgerton and Shritch Troll Runners.
00:51:01.516 -->
00:51:02.519That's right.
00:51:02.519 -->
00:51:04.244What does that mean?
00:51:04.244 -->
00:51:05.596Okay, you're about to say that.
00:51:05.596 -->
00:51:06.210Probably, chris.
00:51:06.471 -->
00:51:20.914Bousin made the first two seasons and he moved on to the projects and now jess bronnell, who um has also worked on previous sean land material, has not stepped in and she clearly has a different vision for the books than I think people intended.
00:51:20.914 -->
00:51:30.532But I also believe to me in some regards this was the direction that people who did not read the books were already kind of anticipating.
00:51:30.532 -->
00:51:34.900So like, for example, to now, we're gonna be in spoiler land spoiler.
00:51:34.900 -->
00:51:37.775Okay, just saying just everyone.
00:51:37.896 -->
00:51:39.039We're about to get into spoilers.
00:51:39.420 -->
00:51:45.376Turn it up so there are some arguments about I'm gonna leave pennell being called on the aside for a hot second.
00:51:45.376 -->
00:51:59.967So where people are mad about honestly is the fact that none of the Bridgerton books, in terms of main characters, nobody's queer Right, no one.
00:51:59.987 -->
00:52:02.818Let's keep that one and the Bridgerton the show fandom.
00:52:04.331 -->
00:52:24.481And the Bridgerton the show fandom there is a large section of people who read the books before, so they're expecting the books to play out on screen exactly as they were written yeah and this is a huge problem for shawn nolan, knowing that we are in 2024, are going to want to see themselves on screen.
00:52:24.481 -->
00:52:29.710Um, I also believe that, um, jess ronald self-identifies as queer.
00:52:29.710 -->
00:52:33.016Um, so like this is a thing.
00:52:33.016 -->
00:52:41.436They are the people running the show, are not the purists book canon fans let go of.
00:52:42.056 -->
00:53:10.317She assigned the like creative control over the characters, like she advises, but she's not in charge of the production and she's been very open about like she has no control and is, like, happy to see some of the storylines brought to a more modern audience, even if that means you know some characters being yeah, like to an extent there is some book canon storylines.
00:53:10.356 -->
00:53:18.708I wish they'd feature because I feel like some like, for example, um the Smythe Smiths, like they, their parties, are always where, like the couple, drama happens.
00:53:18.708 -->
00:53:20.791And I actually thought in this.
00:53:21.155 -->
00:53:25.974In that episode, when they're at the party and there's a violin quartet, I was like, are these the Smythe Smiths?
00:53:26.690 -->
00:53:27.581yeah, these two.
00:53:27.581 -->
00:53:29.492They kind of make a reference to musicality.
00:53:29.492 -->
00:53:30.456Drop that immediately.
00:53:30.456 -->
00:53:31.318I was like y'all.
00:53:31.318 -->
00:53:37.137All the couple drama later on happens there now, but of course that's never what people complain about.
00:53:37.137 -->
00:53:44.559Yes, no, what they do complain about is oh no, the guy I was picturing in my head is now a woman.
00:53:44.559 -->
00:53:46.664Um knows, that breaks fantasy.
00:53:46.664 -->
00:53:48.907So benedict.
00:53:48.907 -->
00:53:54.739People were already annoyed at seasons one and two about him possibly being hinged at as queer.
00:53:54.739 -->
00:53:59.717There were some fans who did not read books who thought at one point that benedict and eloise were a couple.
00:53:59.757 -->
00:54:07.242I'm like no oh sis I mean, you can game of thrones, the thing you can.
00:54:07.242 -->
00:54:08.994I don't think that's what's happening here.
00:54:09.849 -->
00:54:11.938Sorry, I think that's AO3.
00:54:11.938 -->
00:54:12.793It's fine, we're fine.
00:54:12.853 -->
00:54:14.413AO3, okay, keep that to AO3.
00:54:14.413 -->
00:54:14.896We're good.
00:54:14.896 -->
00:54:19.634People were already kind of annoyed about that because they're like well, what happens to his future spouse?
00:54:19.634 -->
00:54:35.614Yeah, so this season it is very obvious that the homophobia is also mixed with misogyny, because now we know that Benedict, according to there was a Luke Thompson movie where he calls him pansexual.
00:54:35.614 -->
00:54:38.335So clearly Benedict is now pansexual.
00:54:38.335 -->
00:54:46.838Bridgerton doesn't always like to completely follow real history, so I'm like in terms of like plausible or not at all yeah.
00:54:47.139 -->
00:54:51.280Yeah, is it actually still happening in Bridgerton's world?
00:54:52.452 -->
00:54:53.239kind of.
00:54:53.239 -->
00:54:58.637Kind of not, because, like, for example, they still don't really have fleshed out Napoleon and the wars.
00:54:58.637 -->
00:55:02.108Yeah, right, I think it's like a liminal space.
00:55:02.108 -->
00:55:06.478How is Colin traveling in the middle of the wars or just after the wars?
00:55:06.478 -->
00:55:08.675Okay, I mean boyfriend died in the middle of the wars.
00:55:08.675 -->
00:55:11.121Or just after the wars, okay, melmolina's husband, I mean boyfriend died in the wars.
00:55:11.121 -->
00:55:13.967It's not consistent at all.
00:55:13.967 -->
00:55:15.516And also they have.
00:55:18.246 -->
00:55:24.297They've decided for now not to deal with personally, Queen Charlotte is the season I've enjoyed the most.
00:55:24.650 -->
00:55:26.478Me too, it's headbound.
00:55:28.181 -->
00:55:33.036It's also one of my favorites because of the way they like the way Shawna constructed the whole Great Experiment as well.
00:55:34.713 -->
00:55:36.460I specifically loved their.
00:55:36.460 -->
00:55:40.217I mean I love their love story, but I also love the female friendships.
00:55:40.217 -->
00:55:55.199I thought she just gave so much time to really having like really nuanced moments of women being there for women, even, like with his, his mom, the queen mother and lady danbury like that relationship.
00:55:55.199 -->
00:56:03.773I found so great um and I wonder what other spinoffs could there be?
00:56:03.773 -->
00:56:06.896That are like Shonda spinoffs.
00:56:08.298 -->
00:56:37.610I would well, it looks like she's considered she hasn't completely taken off another Queen Charlotte follow-up yet off the table, and she said that to one of the trade magazines when I think a possible spinoff could happen in terms of like maybe I could also see a Violet, possibly, although violet, possibly, although they need violet in the main show because she still has to manage all the unmarried children, not a k-nation like young violet.
00:56:39.630 -->
00:56:45.994So let me ask you just uh, um, I mean just to say the the subtext out loud.
00:56:45.994 -->
00:56:59.079We're talking about what the spinoffs would look like and how we could race bend or gender bend or change some aspect or dynamic to make it palatable to folks in the 21st century.
00:56:59.079 -->
00:57:14.865Historical accuracy and costuming and those types of things Like just lay it all on the line, like what are people actually saying in your experience and like what does that mean?
00:57:15.166 -->
00:57:16.206Right, what does it mean?
00:57:16.206 -->
00:57:20.369So I've been working on what does that mean for the past couple of years now.
00:57:20.369 -->
00:57:24.273Actually, before I go, I'll talk about historical accuracy.
00:57:24.273 -->
00:57:29.804There's an important piece here before I talk about that In terms of spoilers for Virginian season three.
00:57:29.804 -->
00:57:35.577It's very obvious the meltdown people have had that Michael is now Michaela.
00:57:36.369 -->
00:57:38.036Yeah, goodness, why didn't we talk about that?
00:57:38.409 -->
00:57:47.335So the meltdown that has caused, first of all, number one, people who have read the books are now spoiling future season storylines for evil.
00:57:47.335 -->
00:58:03.501And now, and it is so obvious that that reactions are clearly driven not just by homophobia but misogyny, because thing is that there's clear straight white women in particular are mad that they have lost another male figure they could project their fantasies on.
00:58:03.501 -->
00:58:12.579They're mad that they, obviously, but the fact, people have jumped immediately so they have ruined the books by trying to be quote unquote woke, right.
00:58:12.579 -->
00:58:21.101I'm like that's a red flag to me, because the a lot of people have not complained about being the same way.
00:58:21.101 -->
00:58:21.543The thing is.
00:58:21.543 -->
00:58:22.190The thing is they can.
00:58:22.190 -->
00:58:29.402They can fantasize about two men being in a relationship, right, because that's what women are.
00:58:29.461 -->
00:58:31.445It's the internalized misogyny too.
00:58:31.764 -->
00:58:36.894And also, too, keep in mind, so far, all Benedict's partners so far have been white, so that's why they don't really care.
00:58:36.894 -->
00:58:39.641It would have been more of a problem if he.
00:58:39.641 -->
00:58:49.518Yeah, I mean there was also a small section of fandom who are also women of color who are angry because they thought that misali bedusa was going to be sophie.
00:58:49.518 -->
00:58:52.222Um, that rumor was kind of now 50 true.
00:58:52.222 -->
00:58:57.920I think they were picturing her for sophie for, like, I think, like character read reasons.
00:58:57.920 -->
00:59:01.742But I'm like okay right now that recover, that cover.
00:59:01.762 -->
00:59:06.159Repackage is gonna be interesting yeah, it's gonna be interesting.
00:59:06.199 -->
00:59:20.777And also, too, I would argue, some of those lines about like feeling wicked and stuff like that would when he was wicked, when he was wicked, that those lines about sin and all that would hit harder on a queer context than a straight context.
00:59:21.010 -->
00:59:22.034Sorry, yeah, she would.
00:59:22.034 -->
00:59:27.393The yearning when he was wicked is one of her most like steamy yearning.
00:59:27.393 -->
00:59:28.762It was wicked is is one of her most like steamy yearning.
00:59:28.762 -->
00:59:29.668This is bad to do.
00:59:29.668 -->
00:59:34.438Feeling books in the bridgerton series yeah, we are now.
00:59:34.619 -->
00:59:37.170It's possibility they may have to redo a bit.
00:59:37.170 -->
00:59:45.298About the um infertility plot I know some people were very attached to, I guess because they identified with francesca's struggle in their own journey.
00:59:45.298 -->
00:59:53.481Um, I would argue, though this is actually the more problematic bit is like parts that sound like baby tramping, which is kind of weird and not like.
00:59:53.481 -->
00:59:56.539I mean it's written like some of it.
00:59:56.539 -->
01:00:03.018If you look at it now, some aspects of that whole scenario has kind of aged badly and those things are old.
01:00:03.018 -->
01:00:04.543They're old, that's the thing.
01:00:04.543 -->
01:00:09.679People are not there, and they were not just because the covers are new and they're like got the netflix label slapped on them.
01:00:09.679 -->
01:00:11.282Those are very old books.
01:00:11.663 -->
01:00:17.972Some of these, the way like these male heroines are written, are kind of problematic and we have to remove some of that.
01:00:17.992 -->
01:00:19.458More like problematic.
01:00:19.458 -->
01:00:22.708Um, it's actually a good thing for series also.
01:00:22.708 -->
01:01:16.168It's a good thing to bring in new viewers with bridget and, and Bridgerton is a chance to have a half half happy queer couples, because so far, in a lot of period dramas that have been repeatedly criticized by the queer community for just centering only historical trauma, like there's a chance for them, for these folks to see themselves on screen in a happy scenario, because I don't even think people realize, even like Downton Abbey was heavily criticized for this, like all of that, that that dialogue has gone all the way back down at least, if not earlier yeah that is only trauma narratives in terms of queer period dramas and and, of course, when there are a lot of this, um, a lot of the queer and sapphic focused period dramas, a lot of them are based on historical events or closeted narratives or people being punished for that, and it's overdue to have people for queer people have a happy ending.
01:01:16.188 -->
01:01:28.565A show like even even some things I like, like you know, like Fingersmith and the Sarah Waters adaptations and the Confessions of Franny Langton, still has some kind of trauma in there also many of those previous queer dramas also heavily white as well.
01:01:28.646 -->
01:01:33.601So it's like finally you get the switch up there, long overdue.
01:01:33.601 -->
01:01:35.983I feel like people don't realize.
01:01:35.983 -->
01:01:50.579I'm like just because it's okay if something's not for you we talk about this so often, about like what happens and that that idea that something is not for you is actually built into the quote historical accuracy narrative.
01:01:51.362 -->
01:01:59.201So the historical accuracy narratives are really because people have learned history 20, 34 years ago.
01:01:59.201 -->
01:02:03.268They're watching older period dramas, you know.
01:02:03.268 -->
01:02:08.911So their assumptions of what actually happened in history are wrong, completely wrong.
01:02:08.911 -->
01:02:12.762They've learned white history through their own historical education through.
01:02:12.762 -->
01:02:19.356When you're not precise, that's when the dog whistle step in, you know, that's when you're not like, specific about like.
01:02:19.356 -->
01:02:23.820Sometimes another dog whistle in these conversations is low quality.
01:02:23.820 -->
01:02:26.643Who is determining quality?
01:02:26.643 -->
01:02:34.760It's not the Emmy Awards board, it's some middle-aged white person in Kansas.
01:02:34.760 -->
01:02:46.288Another one is poor acting, again usually thrown out exclusively on queer and poc um people so, or at characters.
01:02:46.288 -->
01:02:48.237I'm like, yeah, that's another example like poor acting.
01:02:48.237 -->
01:02:51.505I'm like, hmm, yeah, that's another.
01:02:51.505 -->
01:02:53.659That's another red flag, another one off.
01:02:53.659 -->
01:02:55.659Sometimes, depending on who it is, it's too young.
01:02:55.659 -->
01:02:59.351Sometimes, depending on the cast situation, is it's too young.
01:02:59.351 -->
01:03:04.208I'm like, yeah, yeah, so there's never historical accuracy.
01:03:04.208 -->
01:03:10.487Even when we talk about a novelization doesn't make sense because the author was make, was kind of make too.
01:03:10.606 -->
01:03:14.789Yeah, historical accuracy in historical romance specifically.
01:03:14.789 -->
01:03:27.702It is a funny thing and something that has been talked about ad nauseum in romance spaces that like most like how many governesses have married dukes really in history?
01:03:28.543 -->
01:03:29.085Not a one.
01:03:29.085 -->
01:03:31.561How many dukes are there?
01:03:31.561 -->
01:03:32.704How?
01:03:32.724 -->
01:03:35.059many hot ones with all their teeth in their mouth.
01:03:35.661 -->
01:03:36.023Come on.
01:03:36.063 -->
01:03:36.545Not many.
01:03:38.831 -->
01:03:43.262A lot of these historian type people who make these comments about Bridget and other things have not read historical romance.
01:03:44.063 -->
01:04:09.748Right and I mean even within the historical romance reading space of, like you know, the fans that are now demanding things be historically accurate we'll read wildly historically inaccurate work if the two main characters are white correct like as long as it serves their personal fantasy of, like, white aspirational, you know, moments of like.
01:04:09.748 -->
01:04:14.947Of course the nanny can marry the the prince, as long as she's white, right.
01:04:14.947 -->
01:04:19.947As long as it's within their own personal fantasy, it's fine.
01:04:20.434 -->
01:04:52.748But if a Black queer woman is now taking, as you said, amanda, their own personal, their ability to fantasize about that white hero, then there's a problem yeah, and the thing is, what people what these people don't are failing to realize is that the historians that you listen to and review have been telling you wrong information and like tell them and I think I especially hear these someplace, especially from the uk and europe, because again, it's for soul.
01:04:53.007 -->
01:04:57.443I think part of anger is that how dare these Americans tell me what I think about my own history?
01:04:57.583 -->
01:05:08.795I think volunteer is actually adapting source material written by a person of color my god although I have good news on that front.
01:05:08.976 -->
01:05:09.965Hopefully, fingers crossed.
01:05:09.965 -->
01:05:13.177Beverly Jenkins did get one of her stories option.
01:05:13.177 -->
01:05:14.221I did see that.
01:05:14.221 -->
01:05:16.262Yes, yes, I did see that.
01:05:16.262 -->
01:05:21.097Hopefully that means cameras start rolling because it's NBC and John Legend's production company.
01:05:21.478 -->
01:05:23.057Yes, yes.
01:05:23.057 -->
01:05:26.402I did see that it is her contemporary series.
01:05:26.402 -->
01:05:27.699It is contemporary.
01:05:27.719 -->
01:05:37.304That's the only thing I think right now, although somebody should adopt one of her storys, especially given that Bass Reeves and Yellowstone were so popular.
01:05:37.304 -->
01:05:43.163There's a lot of, I think, on the Hollywood side.
01:05:43.163 -->
01:05:50.853Folks are being short-sighted in terms of where her stuff could be, and Yellowstone really is white nostalgia.
01:05:51.396 -->
01:06:06.722It is definitely, and I think there's a very specific market, given the climate this country's in right now, where white American pioneer nostalgia is very marketable.
01:06:06.722 -->
01:06:10.139And I don't know, and Beverly Jenkins' books are not that.
01:06:10.440 -->
01:06:12.233They're African American history.
01:06:12.233 -->
01:06:14.139We had the backstory spin off.
01:06:14.139 -->
01:06:19.878I feel like her books would be perfect in terms of a counter If people want to compete with an audience.
01:06:19.878 -->
01:06:25.123You could go right there, adapt one of her books and just compete with the other people right there.
01:06:26.001 -->
01:06:28.702We have somehow been all over history.
01:06:28.702 -->
01:06:37.465We have been to Regency Georgian, We've even actually touched on the West, which is, you know, we've come full circle.
01:06:37.844 -->
01:06:38.867We've come full circle.
01:06:38.867 -->
01:06:55.211Yeah, and what I would say, for all Bridget's imperfections, there's a chance for both authors and screenwriters to do things in a different way, to do things in a different way or work on.
01:06:55.211 -->
01:07:01.275You know, there are things people do and there's not a space to have both the alternate universe settings and the you know, quote, quote.
01:07:01.275 -->
01:07:06.541I don't like using the word accuracy, but I like to say historical recreation.
01:07:06.541 -->
01:07:21.684Yeah, I've been kind of going away from that term and like for a while now, because I'm like it's so obvious it's becoming a dog whistle for like I hate whatever is happening here and not really analyzing what exactly don't you hate besides?
01:07:21.684 -->
01:07:22.487Oh no, there's a poor person.
01:07:22.487 -->
01:07:23.251Oh no, there's a black person.
01:07:23.271 -->
01:07:32.958Yeah, yeah, I'm like, and of course, there's gonna be a mini war for this and, uh, literally tomorrow, um, pbs is a a little um, british murder, crime drama, village drama.
01:07:32.958 -->
01:07:40.862Granch, we are now getting a third hot vicar who is now South Asian, and I'm waiting for everybody to be like well, he sucks because he's.
01:07:40.862 -->
01:07:42.943We can't say he sucks because he's South Asian.
01:07:42.943 -->
01:07:45.177We're just going to say he's poorly acting.
01:07:45.177 -->
01:08:06.688I'm like, well, you guys ran the guy that hid the last white guy that was there because he was a millennial, so like I have receipts, I mean that I feel like renchester's, like another, like one of those that I fell off um, and probably since the beginning.
01:08:07.090 -->
01:08:18.880I can have a whole ted talk about how wonderful the show is and that like, how secretly, like people don't realize, like the british murder drama is hiding a lot of like secret, like progressive things.
01:08:19.140 -->
01:08:31.228So I'm like y'all, you are in for a lot we probably have to have a season just of uh, mr cozy, mysteries, and we'll have you back on for real.
01:08:31.309 -->
01:08:32.216Yeah, we'll have you back on.
01:08:32.216 -->
01:08:35.898I love because I because love because there's anything about crime dramas, I don't always cover them.
01:08:35.957 -->
01:08:42.074It's a date for a full-on murder mystery book.
01:08:42.154 -->
01:08:46.682Tell us where we can find you for it, so we can actually see those receipts you talk of.
01:08:46.682 -->
01:08:47.939We want to see them live, baby.
01:08:47.939 -->
01:08:49.664Tell us where we can find them.
01:08:49.875 -->
01:08:56.755Obviously, I'm still on the Hell's site Notice Twitter because I've had it since 2009.
01:08:56.755 -->
01:09:01.021It's very hard to like so on twitter.
01:09:01.021 -->
01:09:03.506My uh is amanda r prescott.
01:09:03.506 -->
01:09:10.222I'm a former blue check and I'm kind of just there still talking about working and whatever else I'm working on.
01:09:10.222 -->
01:09:12.225So, um, yeah, um.
01:09:12.225 -->
01:09:15.170I also have a website, amandarayprescottcom.
01:09:15.310 -->
01:09:26.637Okay, my entire name Um, um, and also I am on Instagram as amandarprescott, but I'm not always checking Instagram and same with threads.
01:09:26.637 -->
01:09:34.850I am not on the clock app yet, uh, basically because I'd rather people send me the cat and dog videos.
01:09:34.850 -->
01:09:38.244All right, yeah, all right, yeah.
01:09:38.244 -->
01:09:45.064So I'm also on blue sky as well as amanda r prescott, because I couldn't fit the whole name, um, although I kind of forget to check blue sky.
01:09:45.064 -->
01:09:46.876But, yeah, that's where you can find me on the web.
01:09:46.876 -->
01:09:47.837Um.
01:09:47.837 -->
01:09:49.279For more um.
01:09:49.279 -->
01:09:53.627British tv period drama fun times.
01:09:53.627 -->
01:09:55.770I do have some Bridgerton articles coming out.
01:09:55.770 -->
01:09:59.442I interviewed the showrunner that's up on Dada Geek right now.
01:09:59.442 -->
01:10:05.780I have one more Bridgerton interview coming on Monday, from Dada Geek as well, that people are really going to want to look at.
01:10:05.780 -->
01:10:08.560I'm just going to let y'all be surprised.
01:10:09.822 -->
01:10:23.608Thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge with us and discussing all of the different pitfalls of the British drama fandom.
01:10:23.608 -->
01:10:24.529Thank you so much.
01:10:24.529 -->
01:10:32.309We appreciate it so much and we'll definitely have you back to talk about British history, all the murders, murders, murders.
01:10:33.036 -->
01:10:35.701Only murders in the past, only murders in the podcast.
01:10:35.701 -->
01:10:36.483Only murders in the podcast.
01:10:36.722 -->
01:10:38.726Oh, that's a good name.
01:10:38.768 -->
01:10:39.207All right, bye.
01:10:39.207 -->
01:11:00.229Now let's talk about Lady Danbury, because she was a point of controversy, like a lot of the think pieces and a lot of the reasons why people were just like this is detrimental to Black women were expressly about Lady Danbury's storyline.
01:11:00.229 -->
01:11:13.627So one of the things that people mentioned was that her young marriage to her husband and that what she was experiencing was essentially like non-consensual sex.
01:11:13.627 -->
01:11:41.565What she was experiencing was essentially like non-consensual sex, pretty consistently over time, and that it was played for a laugh and that this was like at the expense of this, of this black body, right, and so people had problems with that and they had problems with her, um, love interest and essentially saying that that she would choose this to have this affair Right Instead of like going with this other Queen Charlotte's brother, right, and like going that route.
01:11:41.565 -->
01:11:48.872And there are a couple of ways I want to think about that critique, but I wanted to throw it to you first to see what you thought and then we could just kind of volley back.
01:11:48.872 -->
01:11:49.051Hit me.
01:11:49.051 -->
01:11:57.175It to you first to see what you thought and then we could just kind of volley back, hit me.
01:11:57.175 -->
01:12:04.899The first thing that I thought of when they were describing her experience was.
01:12:04.899 -->
01:12:11.708I think what they were doing in Bridgerton was giving a really full-bodied experience of relationships and marriage.
01:12:11.708 -->
01:12:21.429Right, I agree, I think in the other two Bridgertons we saw mostly happy marriages, except for maybe, like the the, the Duke's dad, mother and father.
01:12:21.429 -->
01:12:23.560But even the Duke, you know, loved his wife.
01:12:23.560 -->
01:12:36.457He just maybe didn't love his son as much as he should have, right, and so marriage is seen as this kind of unequivocal good for all and the goal for all of these young people is to get married because marriage is good.
01:12:37.179 -->
01:12:46.867And I think Lady Danbury is in this situation to show us that there is an ambiguity about her feelings about motherhood.
01:12:46.867 -->
01:12:55.400These are things that everyone kind of universally has to agree or universally for the good of women, right, marriage and motherhood.
01:12:55.400 -->
01:13:05.640And these are the two very things that Lady Danbury is just like, maybe cool, cool, cool, but I'm a, not so like.
01:13:05.640 -->
01:13:06.904She feels ambiguous as a mother.
01:13:06.904 -->
01:13:11.627It feels distanced from the women who express joy in their marriage.
01:13:11.627 -->
01:13:15.247She was just like you gotta be kidding me, the women who express joy in their marriage.
01:13:15.247 -->
01:13:16.913She was just like you gotta be kidding me.
01:13:21.875 -->
01:13:25.503And she represents this person who can be calculating but is also inherently realistic about what it means to live a life at that point.
01:13:25.503 -->
01:13:31.386So when you talk about her saying you have to make these choices, you have everyone else's on your shoulder.
01:13:31.386 -->
01:13:41.375It's very much because she doesn't live in a world that has idealized these kind of relationships that one has with their spouse and their mother and their child.
01:13:41.375 -->
01:14:00.534Like she doesn't idealize any of those things that we're supposed to, and that's why I think those scenes with her and her husband really focused on the de-idealization of marital relations, right To take literally the rose colored glasses off of marital relations.
01:14:00.534 -->
01:14:28.185I mean, there are people now who are, you know, having relations with spouses not always out of glee, not always out of desire, right, not always out of the joy to do so, desire right, not always out of the joy to do so, and so like the idea that her relationship was stripped of the rose colored glasses is a testament to her character and why she was able to have so much agency, I would argue the most agency in the entire show.
01:14:28.786 -->
01:14:30.009Yeah, I mean Lady.
01:14:30.114 -->
01:14:32.820Danbury was a young woman but was grown.
01:14:32.820 -->
01:14:39.414This is a woman who has grown and she is not trying to play games.
01:14:39.414 -->
01:14:47.890She knows that, that she has, like her life has been compromised from the get go.
01:14:47.890 -->
01:15:06.327She was born to be married off to this man who was wealthy, to be married off to this man who was wealthy, and she is very good at leveraging her choices and the agency that she gets to secure more agency for herself and like.
01:15:06.327 -->
01:15:08.438That's what she does throughout that entire show.
01:15:08.438 -->
01:15:25.226That's what she does and I think I I I mean absolutely there were a lot of cringy moments with lady Danbury in the beginning in those first three episodes of the show, a lot like the.
01:15:25.555 -->
01:15:27.381There need to be five of those scenes.
01:15:27.381 -->
01:15:30.783I can't tell you if that was necessary or not.
01:15:30.783 -->
01:15:31.645I could have been.
01:15:31.645 -->
01:15:33.817I was good with one, maybe two.
01:15:33.817 -->
01:15:43.667But I think the point of it is and it's like what you said like beyond just the fact that like true, it was the reality for some women.
01:15:43.667 -->
01:16:01.569It still is the reality for some women and I think, like I'm not even like we could get into like for at that time, like women of color, how they even had a proximity to wealth, how they could become like you know, the lady or the house, like the choices that they had.
01:16:01.569 -->
01:16:13.641All of that isn't even like relevant because this is like a fictional world, but I think like it's important to also like show that there's different kinds of relationships, there's different kinds of marriages.
01:16:14.216 -->
01:17:17.600There are marriages that people make because of practical reasons and lady danbury was a practical woman and because of that she was able to shape her destiny and honestly like influence the destiny of a country, because she was there with the good word for Charlotte when she needed it she did the actual work, oh yeah, and told her like there's a moment in the show when, like Charlotte is like she's had can we curse in this show she's had that good dick already at least once and she and we just decided, we just decided, and she is, like you know, sprung and he is like out there farming on something, he's kind of like checked out, she, she is, she is like like struggling and lady danbury is like she's like literally has her hair like face pressed to the window watching him walk around with no shirt on.
01:17:17.600 -->
01:17:21.735And lady danbury is like you golden scene it's gold.
01:17:21.796 -->
01:17:36.234She's literally like climbing on a on a on like a bench, like mozart is playing in the literal mozart is playing in her in her freaking like piano room and she's like left the kid and gone to look at the window because he's like out there farming or whatever.
01:17:36.234 -->
01:17:40.755And Lady Danbury's like you have to get it together.
01:17:40.755 -->
01:17:43.779Like you have got to stop looking at this man.
01:17:43.779 -->
01:17:51.735You are the queen, you are the first of your kind, like he's cute and everything, but you have got to get your shit together.
01:17:51.735 -->
01:17:53.850You are just wasting time and like our titles are in jeopardy here, but you have got to get your shit together.
01:17:53.850 -->
01:18:02.023You are just wasting time and like our titles are in jeopardy here, yeah, and so she is like the one that keeps her in check.
01:18:02.023 -->
01:18:19.690Because this woman is like and it's interesting because in to lady Danbury like the idea that a woman could be so into her husband that she's like not able to focus on the task at hand isn't even a possibility.
01:18:20.556 -->
01:18:21.541She doesn't buy it.
01:18:21.541 -->
01:18:23.101She's like what the hell?
01:18:23.354 -->
01:18:40.626She's like what is going on with you, like you did your duty, you having you know you're having the marital relations and like what is going on that you're so like in your head and and Charlotte is, of course, like gone for this man.
01:18:40.626 -->
01:19:13.582But it's just like I feel like it was honestly like I feel like a beautiful way to kind of like parallel how two young women can have such different experiences, and also like the fact that, like charlotte is obviously the queen was also like lighter skinned lady danvers, like a darker skinned woman, like, yeah, like there was a like shonda was doing like double time, triple time, with the characterization in that in that series, to be honest, I, I absolutely agree.
01:19:14.484 -->
01:19:21.443Another woman that I wanted to think a little bit about is Princess Augusta Another great character.
01:19:21.443 -->
01:19:28.184Another great character, really, the kind of architect of the great experiment in a way.
01:19:28.184 -->
01:19:30.256Essentially, her and Lady Danbury.
01:19:30.256 -->
01:19:36.256What did you think that Shonda was doing with this Princess Augusta character?
01:19:36.256 -->
01:19:41.286I found her abrasive and compelling at the same time.
01:19:41.286 -->
01:19:51.443You knew precisely what she was trying to do, which was placate all of these men while making sure that her son was protected with the kind of science that she knew at the time.
01:19:51.443 -->
01:19:54.368Right, she wasn't necessarily a fan of Charlotte, but she was doing what she had to do.
01:19:54.368 -->
01:20:04.304Right, she wasn't necessarily a fan of Charlotte, but she was doing what she had to do, what she felt to like protect her son yes, I mean and again it's a testament to the kind of writer that Shonda Rhimes is is that?
01:20:04.824 -->
01:20:04.925and?
01:20:04.925 -->
01:20:29.997And for me, especially, like I, when I'm watching a show where there's so many women of color, so many black women specifically, and there's like one white woman that's coming in with like a karen energy, like, it's very easy for me to immediately like villainize her you know what I mean like this lady's out here to call 9-1-1 on the people barbecuing.
01:20:30.097 -->
01:20:31.702She wants to speak to the manager.
01:20:31.761 -->
01:20:39.063She wants to speak to the manager, she wants to you to turn off your music, so he's gonna write an angry.
01:20:39.162 -->
01:20:58.136And so to me, what was very compelling about her is a that she was very clear in her intentions all she wanted was her son to stay king, and, and shonda rhymes unpacked that for us as we went, like she gave us.
01:20:58.235 -->
01:21:10.030Like this woman has been carrying the burden of her son being mentally ill and like being vulnerable to losing his crown, like pretty much since it was born.
01:21:10.030 -->
01:21:12.381Her husband died.
01:21:12.381 -->
01:21:26.345She was at the mercy of her husband's father, who was terrible, terrible, and so she's been carrying this burden for George's entire life and seeing that things are getting worse with him.
01:21:26.345 -->
01:21:37.778And so, like you can, you could feel her stress, you could feel her, the urgency for her and her desperation, really that you could sense her.
01:21:37.778 -->
01:22:04.841And like I mean, that actress is great, like the, the woman who actually played the role, because she was so contained, and yet you could sense her like desperation and the stress she was under, absolutely like I don't know I have a favorite moment with her, but I wanted to ask you what, if there's a scene with Augusta that like stuck out, stuck out for you oh, absolutely, it was absolutely.
01:22:04.903 -->
01:22:06.786When Lady Danbury starts to cry.
01:22:06.786 -->
01:22:09.815And she was just like bitch, are you kidding?
01:22:09.815 -->
01:22:13.985Like you can do all the things, but don't do not, not you and me, you know.
01:22:13.985 -->
01:22:22.800I mean, she was she essentially like pulled down all the curtains to say this is like you are my only real peer, you know.
01:22:22.800 -->
01:22:27.734And if you pull this, you know soft belly bullshit, like what are we doing right?
01:22:27.734 -->
01:22:29.759So it was she.
01:22:29.759 -->
01:22:32.484She was like make your ask and see.
01:22:32.484 -->
01:22:34.408Like be strong enough to see if I take it or not.
01:22:34.469 -->
01:22:53.849Like we're doing this, I love it that to me is honestly probably like my top three favorite scenes in the whole show, because it really boiled down to me what shonda was doing in that show in terms of offering to us like a view into the lives of women.
01:22:53.849 -->
01:23:10.547Like it was like because Princess Augusta's like I don't like you, but I respect you and I see what you're doing and like you are better than to fall apart, crying Like do not do this, not here.
01:23:10.547 -->
01:23:11.935You are not here to fall apart.
01:23:11.935 -->
01:23:14.181You are here to get your goals.
01:23:14.181 -->
01:23:21.126Like if you yep, you can't, this is not the moment and this is not the time for you to be crying.
01:23:21.126 -->
01:23:23.797She takes out a flask from somewhere.
01:23:23.898 -->
01:23:46.462Pour some brandy in, lady danvers cup and like here have this brandy and get your shit get your shit together, because you like, and it was like it was a moment of like we can disagree but we can be adversaries, but we are after the same goal and it's like you get what you want and you get the power to do what you want, and I get what I want.
01:23:46.462 -->
01:24:10.222Like and and I love, like, I feel like so much of television that centers women's, or like women going after things, or women with ambition, like, so it like really does this lazy thing of making the women who are powerful and ambitious and focus, like like they pit them against each other.
01:24:11.516 -->
01:24:24.363And this is one of the few times when, like the two, like bad bitches, like even when they're like kind of at each other's throats, like there's respect there and there's like you can get what you want and I can get what I want.
01:24:24.363 -->
01:24:38.847Yes, and that to me again, like honestly, like those two artists of Lady Danbury and Princess Elgasa, I think it's just honestly like such brilliant writing and such brilliant characterization.
01:24:38.847 -->
01:24:43.304Like, honestly, hats off to Chandra Rimes, because she truly is the best.
01:24:44.527 -->
01:24:45.307Yeah, yeah.
01:24:45.307 -->
01:24:51.365One of the last things I want to ask is essentially about the hero.
01:24:51.365 -->
01:24:52.948Right, finally, we're?
01:24:52.948 -->
01:24:53.860Let's go to the romance.
01:24:53.860 -->
01:24:54.565Finally, let's talk about the hero.
01:24:54.565 -->
01:24:55.613Right, finally we're let's go to the romance.
01:24:55.613 -->
01:24:58.238Finally, let's talk about the hero.
01:24:58.859 -->
01:25:03.287I found this hero extremely empathetic.
01:25:03.287 -->
01:25:08.439I felt for him, I wanted his.
01:25:08.439 -->
01:25:16.881He was also a person who was incredibly powerful, but was without agency in a real way, also a person who was incredibly powerful but was without agency in a real way.
01:25:16.881 -->
01:25:22.742And it was almost like Queen Charlotte had like draped over her agents, like once she found who she was, like she almost like draped him.
01:25:22.742 -->
01:25:29.980You know the, the scene where he is he runs out in the moonlight, you know, and she gets his blanket and like she puts it over him.
01:25:30.480 -->
01:25:41.985And it was like this moment of deciding, like I am going to be like for this person and she she found her agency, if only to be his actual agent.
01:25:41.985 -->
01:25:45.800I think she was in real life, his guardian up until he died.
01:25:45.800 -->
01:25:48.043You know like and or she died.
01:25:48.043 -->
01:25:59.341But yes, that that moment of saying like I'm going to use my agency and you have actually very little agency despite your position and I'm going to use my agency to fight for you as well.
01:25:59.341 -->
01:26:00.423That's another.
01:26:00.423 -->
01:26:02.268It's another case of that very thing.
01:26:02.268 -->
01:26:13.389And then like for the hero to be the person who needs saving by this woman of agency is something that I felt like it was so.
01:26:13.389 -->
01:26:14.990It was so soft, it was so vulnerable.
01:26:15.496 -->
01:26:29.659And it was like the kind of like the reciprocity of them, because all she wanted was to be okay, right, like to be safe, like and I think, like I think a lot about, especially in this moment.
01:26:29.680 -->
01:26:42.984Like it, like I think that's why historical romance, specifically, is like a really great vessel right now to explore like what we're feeling as women right now, like so much of the world feels unsafe again.
01:26:42.984 -->
01:26:56.578I mean, it's never felt super safe, but it's feeling particularly precarious right now for us, for our rights, our the things that we like have fought for and won, and like starting to like lose them.
01:26:56.578 -->
01:27:07.746And and like Charlotte from the beginning, like all she wanted was to be safe, to find someone that wasn't going to hurt her, that to be okay.
01:27:07.746 -->
01:27:13.502Like she wanted to be in a marriage where she was safe and she found that george.
01:27:13.502 -->
01:27:31.262And then george found in her a person to be safe with, with his mental illness, like the secret that he had been holding for his whole life and really thought was something that no one could love him through.
01:27:31.262 -->
01:27:33.865Like he really was so afraid.
01:27:33.865 -->
01:27:35.747Like I mean it is the wound.
01:27:35.927 -->
01:27:57.543Yeah, Like he, like the, the wound he felt like, like truly like no one can love me if they know this about me, and the way that she from the first was like I'm not sure what's happening with him, but he's my husband and I am going to have his back, Like she was his ride or die.
01:27:59.045 -->
01:27:59.204Yeah.
01:27:59.926 -->
01:28:00.707From the get-go.
01:28:00.707 -->
01:28:22.917Yeah, she was Something that like moved me was if he needs to be mad, let him be mad.
01:28:22.917 -->
01:28:24.381Right, I mean, I was like honey, you can have all of me, ok, I understand.
01:28:24.381 -->
01:28:35.387Like if, because the the other option was to see him in Agnes to torture him, and like even when, at one point also, that he's like sometimes I don't even know where I am, like my mind is not right, and she's like, well, if you don't know where you are, I will tell you where you are.
01:28:35.654 -->
01:28:38.123I will tether you to the earth.
01:28:38.536 -->
01:28:40.021I will tell you where you are.
01:28:40.021 -->
01:28:45.747Like it's that, honestly, that romance was flawless.
01:28:46.975 -->
01:28:47.920That declaration of love.
01:28:47.920 -->
01:28:52.104That was probably one of the best declarations of love I've seen this year.
01:28:52.104 -->
01:28:53.466It shook me.
01:28:53.466 -->
01:28:54.738I was boohooing.
01:28:54.738 -->
01:28:55.283I would say it's one of the best declarations of love I've seen this year.
01:28:55.204 -->
01:28:55.287It shook me.
01:28:55.287 -->
01:28:55.333I was boo-hooing.
01:28:55.333 -->
01:29:00.306I would say it's one of the best declarations of love I have seen in television.
01:29:00.306 -->
01:29:02.479I don't know.
01:29:02.479 -->
01:29:08.716I mean there's obviously the 2005 Pride and Prejudice Like.
01:29:08.716 -->
01:29:10.301That's probably like.
01:29:11.735 -->
01:29:13.641That stammering I love you it still.
01:29:13.641 -->
01:29:14.305It still gets me.
01:29:14.305 -->
01:29:17.503I've seen it so many times, adriana, but I'm toxic.
01:29:17.503 -->
01:29:18.386It is.
01:29:20.256 -->
01:29:36.984Like unmatched let's just leave that in another place but of like a historical period piece, romance, that, that declaration from George to like, like my heart calls your heart calls out your name.
01:29:37.744 -->
01:29:45.006My heart, my heart calls your name and it's just like he's in tears and he's just like pressing him, like do you love me?
01:29:45.716 -->
01:29:52.885Oh my gosh, I'm getting chills, I've watched it so many times and it is just so emotional.
01:29:52.885 -->
01:30:35.497I mean and again I mean for for people out there, if, if you listen to this and you're trying to write a romance, please watch that series because it is a giving the tip, it is a master class in like building the emotion to a love declaration, like honestly, like, like honestly, like few I've seen in in television and even like I mean there's a lot of great love declarations in romance novels obviously, but this is one of the best ones I've seen in television and it's because she really like we were really with them and like both of them as they fell in love and like seeing all the things.
01:30:35.497 -->
01:30:38.284I mean there were so many genius things that she did in that show.
01:30:38.284 -->
01:31:00.662One of them was having us see them get married and then kind of her like him ghost her, he like he ghosts her and like that during the honeymoon and then comes back but he's like pissy about it and then she hears him say something that hurts her feelings and then we see him kind of like being really evasive and like we know that something's wrong.
01:31:00.774 -->
01:31:07.454Like we know the history Queen George had mental illness but then, like the fourth episode of the of the series.
01:31:07.454 -->
01:31:22.557It's from his point of view and what was happening with him in those moments that he was kind of like MIA, and then we see what he's been doing and then we're like it's heartbreaking, and then we again go back to kind of like her point of view.
01:31:22.557 -->
01:31:37.712So again, a masterclass in POV, a masterclass like truly centering women I there's like women's friendships, like I love.
01:31:37.712 -->
01:31:44.231Like the present times, because, like the show is in a dual timeline, it's like the past oh yes, that's right.
01:31:44.512 -->
01:31:45.735It's also dual timeline.
01:31:45.775 -->
01:31:57.212It's doing, it's the past and it's like the present and it's like lady danbury, older um violet, who's the mom of the bridgerton kids.
01:31:57.212 -->
01:32:29.162She, like her friendship with lady danbury, is interested in complicated, especially because we learned some things about lady danbury's past that kind of complicates the relationship that she has with violet in some ways like even queen charlotte and kind of like one of the really brilliant things that Chanda does is that Queen Charlotte still dresses like she dressed when she married King George, because she's basically like frozen in time.
01:32:29.755 -->
01:32:33.055He wants her Tethering him constantly to a woman.
01:32:33.076 -->
01:32:39.338Yes, she wants him to know that it's her and like that's why she doesn't change how she dresses.
01:32:39.338 -->
01:33:05.394It's, it's just honestly like it's just a great romance and and one of those romances where we get the epilogue, because if, if it would would have been a regular romance novel, the book would have like it would have ended when they had that last ball, where they have the second ball and like everything's great and she's pregnant again and like everything's beautiful, like he seems, like he's okay.
01:33:05.394 -->
01:33:19.268But then we get like the present and we see how their love story kind of like you know, unfolded through the years and even though things are not perfect at all, they still love each other.
01:33:19.268 -->
01:33:26.827Yeah, and it's still beautiful and it's still like the last 10 minutes of that show the way I cried.
01:33:29.640 -->
01:33:31.614Like something was hurting me, stop.
01:33:31.614 -->
01:33:32.779My kids came in.
01:33:32.779 -->
01:33:35.480Mom, are you okay, dry heaves?
01:33:35.480 -->
01:33:36.283I'm more than okay.
01:33:36.344 -->
01:33:38.720Yes, dry heaving Like dry heaving.
01:33:38.720 -->
01:33:43.889It was truly, truly, truly, like it was just beautiful.
01:33:43.889 -->
01:33:47.757It was beautiful and I really do believe that it was.
01:33:47.757 -->
01:34:00.038It made such an impact on me because, it was told, I think really really trying to center A the lives of women, but specifically Black women.
01:34:00.038 -->
01:34:02.886I really do believe that that's what made the big difference for me.
01:34:04.395 -->
01:34:05.177Absolutely agree.
01:34:05.177 -->
01:34:33.628I mean, if we're summing up our experience with Queen Charlotte and making that bridge between what we know about romance or romance culture, I would say the triumph of Queen Charlotte was its ability to fixate on, like a marginalized person, marginalized community, and like turn her experience into a universal experience.
01:34:33.628 -->
01:34:47.368So often it's the opposite, right, where, like the white experience is seen as a universal experience and then, like people of color, kind of getting where they fit in, like we're just we're reading Jane Austen and like kind of imagining that you know that this could be the other way.
01:34:47.368 -->
01:34:55.849But what she did was reverse that, turn that inside out and say that this, this person of color's experience, is a universal experience as well.
01:34:55.849 -->
01:34:58.055And that, to me, is the genius of Queen Charlotte.
01:34:58.055 -->
01:35:00.360There probably wasn't a woman who watched that.
01:35:00.360 -->
01:35:02.145That didn't say she is like me.
01:35:02.414 -->
01:35:06.606Yes, yes, and I mean again, like, yes, yes, exactly.
01:35:06.606 -->
01:35:35.747I don't have nothing more to add other than I agree, agree, it's, it really truly is, and the universal experience that still focuses on the collective, like like a unit, like a, a one person's experience can still be grounded in your own safety and your own well-being, and you can still be able to think about the greater good.
01:35:36.956 -->
01:35:38.260Come on, come on.
01:35:39.845 -->
01:35:41.078Come on See how she did that.
01:35:41.078 -->
01:35:42.684You see what Shonda did there?
01:35:43.694 -->
01:35:44.779Yeah, I see what she did.
01:35:44.779 -->
01:35:45.644I see what she did.
01:35:45.644 -->
01:35:51.820Do you have any recommendations for people who still want to vibe this hard and this well?
01:35:51.820 -->
01:35:53.884Any books that come to mind for you?
01:35:54.564 -->
01:36:08.155yes, um, I actually just reread forbidden by beverly jenkins, which is one of my favorite romances ever and I hadn't read in a couple of years.
01:36:08.235 -->
01:36:17.274I listened to it, oh, like in a day, like this week, and I would recommend that one because that like just to give like a little.
01:36:17.274 -->
01:36:22.405I mean, you know, like if you read the, the, the back copy, you'll know like it's.
01:36:22.405 -->
01:36:53.765It's a man, ryan fontaine, and he is like his father was a slave owner, he, his mom was a slave, and he is light-skinned, so he decides to, he's passing, he has like crossed the collar line and he is, and this is like 18, like it's like in the middle of reconstruction, like when reconstruction is starting to like fragment, yeah, and so there's like a real conversation going on.
01:36:53.765 -->
01:36:57.591I mean, first of all, beverly Jenkins is a freaking genius.
01:36:57.591 -->
01:37:05.868Like nobody renders real history in a romance novel the way that this woman does it.
01:37:05.868 -->
01:37:09.845Like every time I read one of her books, I am in awe of her skill.
01:37:11.135 -->
01:37:16.923Forbidden is top tier it is one of my favorite all-time romances of any subgenre.
01:37:16.923 -->
01:37:23.618I've read it so many times and every time I'm like she is literally a freaking genius.
01:37:23.618 -->
01:37:34.587But anyway, there's so much context here, I think connected to also what Shonda did with Queen Charlotte in terms of this is a critical moment in the race.
01:37:34.587 -->
01:37:45.545This is a critical moment in the race, like there's a critical moment in the race and you have to pick your sides and you got to do your job, yep, and in Forbidden it's the same thing.
01:37:45.755 -->
01:37:51.194Like Ryan has been kind of been I'm living as a white guy but I'm helping out the black community.
01:37:51.194 -->
01:37:53.699Like I'm a good guy but I'm like white.
01:37:53.699 -->
01:37:57.547So like I'm here and I have, and he and he has a lot of privileges.
01:37:57.547 -->
01:38:11.519He is able to like maneuver a lot of things, but he has to like he comes to the realization that he has to like he like, he's like he can't continue to live in both, in both worlds.
01:38:11.519 -->
01:38:12.740So it's, it's anyway.
01:38:12.740 -->
01:38:16.868I think it's a book that is a good.
01:38:16.868 -->
01:38:19.978It's a good like.
01:38:19.997 -->
01:38:37.568it's a similar vibe in terms of everything that it's negotiating and the community piece and the piece of the collective, especially because, like there was a time where, like the Republican Party was really compromising so that they could, you know, bring in the white people that were disgruntled, and all of this stuff.
01:38:37.568 -->
01:38:49.766That is happening right now and so it's anyway Forbidden by Beverly Jenkins is one of my recommendations, it is a freaking brilliant book, genius.
01:38:50.976 -->
01:38:56.798I'm also going to do a historical that I absolutely loved the Diana Quincy series.
01:38:56.798 -->
01:39:11.909Her historicals are incredibly steamy, but they also deal particularly well with race, and what I love about her regency is that all of her heroes or heroines are from different classes.
01:39:11.909 -->
01:39:17.654So some of them are dukes, but some of them are like merchants or even lower, like one of them was like a bone setter.
01:39:17.694 -->
01:39:19.783Yes, I love that bone setter romance.
01:39:20.435 -->
01:39:21.862Yeah, oh yeah, that was good.
01:39:21.862 -->
01:39:30.034And so she deals very kind of explicitly with race and the issue of being kind of Arab in that time right.
01:39:30.034 -->
01:40:00.872So I think it's analogous to the story of, like, how one becomes accepted in this and it's like you have to somehow erase who you are to be accepted, and that was the thing that her heroines are always pushing up against, like I can't actually be Arab Right and be accepted in this space, and they're moving outside of the ton and the aristocracy to kind of find their happiness and then making changes on the aristocracy and forcing them to kind of change the way they think.
01:40:00.872 -->
01:40:04.743And I think that's really similar and it's so steamy, it's so spicy.
01:40:04.935 -->
01:40:06.842Her books are super spicy, super smart.
01:40:06.842 -->
01:40:10.725They always have these like super interesting professions.
01:40:10.725 -->
01:40:12.783She has one that's like a map maker too.
01:40:12.783 -->
01:40:14.045She has really great.
01:40:14.045 -->
01:40:15.957Diane a map maker too, she has really great.
01:40:15.957 -->
01:40:18.881Diane Quincy is great to read.
01:40:18.881 -->
01:40:24.618She is a phenomenal historical romance author and it's all.
01:40:24.618 -->
01:40:35.965All her heroines are Arab, and some of her heroes too, so it's Also top tier romance, fantastic, good choices.
01:40:35.965 -->
01:40:36.627Good talk.
01:40:36.627 -->
01:40:38.470I know it was a great talk.
01:40:38.470 -->
01:40:39.539I love that we're doing this.
01:40:40.595 -->
01:40:44.225We hope you can join us biweekly on Unbound and join our conversation.
01:40:44.225 -->
01:40:45.226Thanks for riding with us.
01:40:46.034 -->
01:40:50.899Your thoughts and stories are the lifeblood of this exploration, so we invite you to engage with us.
01:40:50.899 -->
01:40:55.802Share your insights, your favorite moments and the romance narratives that have touched your life.
01:40:55.802 -->
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01:41:03.649 -->
01:41:07.358Until next time, keep your hearts unbound.
