Tyler Zach: Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host Tyler Zock, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between. Now, the Typish summits I host include speakers and attendees from all kinds of faith traditions and backgrounds, but because I started my Enneagram journey as a pastor and wrote a 40-day devotional for every Enneagram type, If you benefited from this episode, please make sure to hit the like button, subscribe, and give us a 5 star rating and write a review so that this content will be shared with more Enneagram enthusiasts like yourself. Before you go, take a moment to reflect on the upstream and downstream disciplines AJ shared for your type. How can you lean into your downstream discipline, the one that comes more naturally to you? And what is one small micro goal you can set to practice your upstream discipline? I a large Christian audience, and the topic of spiritual growth is the number one request that I get. So, for the next six weeks, I'm digging into the vault and sharing six conversations from my Gospel for Enneagram Summit back in 2023. If you'd like the bullet point notes for this episode and all six episodes in this podcast series, you can grab them right now by clicking the link in the show notes and downloading the free PDF as a gift. The one that stretches you and helps you become the person you're longing to become. Remember, spiritual formation is slow, steady work, but over time, these practices can smooth your rough edges and shape you into something beautiful. Today my guest is Pastor and Dr. A.J. Sherrill. He served as lead pastor at Marsil Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and is now the lead pastor at St. Peter's Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He has served as adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, and in the Enneagram community, A.J.'s popular book, The Enneagram for Spiritual Formation, is a highly sought-after resource that I have in my library and highly recommend you check out.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Well, and how did you first learn about the Enneagram? This is not something that's new for you, right? You've ⁓ been studying Enneagram for quite a while.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, I've been teaching workshops for seven, 10 years now. I first studied it accidentally. I was in a doctorate course with Father Richard Rohr back in like a long time ago. was in Albuquerque. Really? And one of my friends, we teach now Fuller, the Enneagram at the doctorate program there named Mark Scandrette. And Mark had heard of the Enneagram, I had not. And he started asking him questions and we got him totally off topic. So like we spent a half a day
Tyler Zach: He's also the author of a number of other popular books such as Rediscovering Christmas and Being with God. Our conversation today centers around one of the topics of his Enneagram book, which is spiritual disciplines for every Enneagram type, what he calls upstream and downstream disciplines. I respect and admire AJ for being a pioneer in this area, finding innovative ways to blend the Enneagram and spirituality together.
AJ Sherrill: just grilling Richard Rohr on the Enneagram, because he had written a book eons ago on it. it was my first experience with it. And it was so beautiful because it wasn't like self-congratulatory stuff. I was sort of at a place in my journey where I just needed resistance. I needed some sort of opposition to say, listen, like you need to pay attention to the shadow side of your life. ⁓ that's what the Enneagram did for me. It wasn't just like behavioral, but it was the thing under the thing under the thing. And it got to my motives. So a pastor, it's easy to present.
Tyler Zach: and I think you will too by the end of this episode. If you want to learn more about AJ and his writing and speaking work, visit ajscherl.org. Now, without further ado, let's jump into the conversation.
AJ Sherrill: in certain ways and yet have like a really shallow or shadowed inner life. So all that came out. It was a really good journey for me. And it was really, I didn't get into it to teach it. I had no idea I'd ever write on it. It was just so helpful. so I really delved into that. And then I met a woman in Greenwich, Connecticut. I was pastoring in Manhattan at the time. Her was Suzanne Stabile. A guy Ian Cron had invited me out to Connecticut to do a workshop with them. And this was before they wrote The Road Back to You. And so they were sort of beta testing their material and doing that together. And so I said to Suzanne at a break, I'm like, hey, listen, I'm about to start my dissertation. Has anyone done any work from a Christian perspective on spiritual practices based on your type? Because your type can't be about just knowing your type. You have to work it. You have to sort of develop yourself within that to grow. And in other words, what do we do with what we know? Is anyone writing on that? And she said, to my understanding for the church, I've not seen that book. So was like, I got my dissertation. So I started doing that, published that, and then it got picked up by a publisher and just started really and writing. And it's been a journey ever since. So yeah, my is really personal. So it's not like, ⁓ that's cool. Let me wield it, which a three can do. But it really shaped me ⁓ is still me a lot ⁓ of insight about how I need to continue to be shaped to grow into Christ's likeness.
Tyler Zach (AJ): let's dive into the spiritual but before we do that, is there anything you want to say about what Christians should pay attention to specifically the enneagram and spiritual formation? there any way you'd frame up the conversation about the importance of why you use the enneagram and spiritual formation before we kind of go around the enneagram? ⁓
AJ Sherrill: Sure, yeah, it's not Jesus. And so I don't, I'm not an apologist for it. So some people are like, oh my goodness, it's the Antichrist. It's like, you know, if that's what you think you can have, it's been super helpful for me, but only because it's a, it's a means. It's not an end. When the Enneagram becomes an end, it can be an idol and it can be kind of a strange token-y sort of a parlor trick conversation. And that can also simultaneously exclude people around you. So be aware of that. If people aren't aware of the Enneagram or don't know all that stuff, it can just be a massive turnoff. So I just tell people like, you gotta work your number. It's not about knowing your number. It just gives us information about who we are, why we do what we do, and how we might grow. So that's what I'm really interested in. I'm more interested in Jesus and pursuing than I am the Enneagram. The Enneagram is just a tool that's given me information to do that more ⁓ precisely.
Tyler Zach (AJ): that's so good. Where do you start in book? Do you start at type one or do you start with the heart types or gut types? ⁓
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, I love triads. So I'll start with the eight. I only do that I think because because Suzanne Stabil taught me to do that in her workshop. And I've noticed that triads are often those energy centers are often a great place to help kind of bring themes together. Today, we're just going to be talking about some practices, but I'll probably start with the eight anyway.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Okay. Can you, in your book, you talk about there being upstream practices and downstream practices. Do you want to give those watching a little bit of an orientation about what you mean by upstream and downstream?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, so imagine yourself floating on a lazy river. So you're on the raft. Downstream are practices that come natural for you. So if you're just sitting there, there's no work. It doesn't take a lot of resistance or energy. If you kind of want to do these things, there are things in each of us that we naturally are sort of, we're prone to want to do as we pursue the presence of God. And then there are things that sort of great against our personality. We're like, I don't want to do that. I don't connect in that way. I don't connect with people like that, or I don't connect with nature like that, or I don't connect with books like that. I'm not cerebral, et cetera, et cetera. So those are things that we have to pay attention to because sometimes those are things that actually shape us most. It's like being in a gym and you notice like, like that practice and exercise. I don't like that exercise. And sometimes it's that exercise that actually your body needs most. And so I like to invite people to consider Not necessarily throwing things out that are downstream that you like, but also paying attention to upstream things you might avoid. Because the spiritual life, all of life, is integrated. Head, heart, will, right? All of this stuff, the Shema spirituality we get from Deuteronomy in Numbers is integrated all the way through. So we're not just bobbleheads, nor are we just kind of emotive people, nor are we just activists. All of this has to work together in movement toward the kingdom. And so practices help us sort of get a better holistic sort of way engaging all of our being so that we can be formed at every level of who we are.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Yes, I love it. Okay, do you want to start with type eights then?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will. And let me just give a quick anecdote before I do. I was on a hike with my daughter this weekend and we were looking at waterfalls and this waterfall was, don't think Niagara, it was like a gentle flowing water over like a big rock face. So we get to the bottom and we finally make it about an hour into the clearing and we come upon this waterfall and immediately I just felt like, you know, we've heard something like this before, but I think that's it. That's what I'm trying to say through Formation. And I went home and I just kind of like, as Eloise and I, my daughter, were looking at this cliff and this water coming over it and all this rock, it was just this idea of just as a cliffs, sharp edged rocks are slowly smoothed, because it was almost like shiny, the rock, but just as a cliffs, sharp edged rocks are slowly smoothed through the constant flow of running water. So our sharp edged souls are constantly smoothed. through the constant flow of life experience and spiritual practices. That there's something about these practices that sort of help us smooth out the jagged edges of the soul, of the tongue, of the mind, that over time do work on us in order to make us less sort of jagged and much more smooth and less quick to react. ⁓ that we can sort of gain more clarity in life and sort of live with that level of intelligence on every level. So when we talk about practices, what we're talking about is how do we give ourselves in different ways to the presence of God? Because it's in the presence that we become formed and shaped. So the practices themselves are not the thing. They are just the thing that gets us to the real thing, which is God's presence. So practices without presence is just religion. But what does it mean to practice in such a way that you're grafting on and allowing God's presence to totally permeate your life? That's where the transformation happens.
Tyler Zach (AJ): So again type eights, do you want to start with?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, let's start with the eights. The thing where you are stuck, typically fixation for the eights. And as I talk about this, wherever are in the Enneagram, some of these things will be helpful. And I also think that the one practice is like, do that for the rest of your life. Like anything, even working out, you have to ⁓ change your rhythm your workouts. so we don't prescribe these, describe some of these things. And so take them as you see fit for the season you're in. You know, the fixation for the aid is vengeance. You know, it's easy for you to kind of get in that place, even like an inner bitterness if you're not careful. You know, your vice can be aggression, but you're also really justice and goal oriented, as you know. like to talk about like the downstream for this practice ⁓ so obvious. It's that commitment. It's doubling down to say, I am going to ⁓ for the common good. I'm going to contend for justice and what I believe is right in the world. but it's also doing it in a way that you don't create unnecessary adversaries along the way. You know, I find that aides can become so determined in their right to fight for justice that they can actually create a lot of unhealthy relationships along the way because it's this goal and we're gonna do that. We need to change the system, et cetera, et cetera. All beautiful, but realize like other people exist and ⁓ need them in the story with us. But nevertheless, your downward stream, keep going. ⁓ Contend for what is right, what is good, what is true, what is beautiful, all those things at your work and your home and your neighborhood, whatever that is in the world. And we just affirm that in you and that you lead us so well when it comes to seeing truth rightly and in that direction. Take us along the ride ⁓ and be slow to be upset with the rest of us who maybe aren't as fast as you to see that. Your upstream I would say you're gonna have to press against ⁓ is accountability. The reason for that is because Eights are typically powerful people and because of that they can unintentionally be ⁓ or they can be seen as sort of people that are not open to other people's voices. ⁓ That's not the way Eights feel inside, but it's what they project this kind of like amazing strength that the underside of that is people don't always feel the freedom ⁓ to truthfully because they can be intimidating. And so it's that, it's that, you know, they say, think it was Suzanne told me, or maybe it was the Delcarne that eights might have like, you know, they can count the people that really know them over their lifetime on one hand. So it's like, is there someone you can invite into your season to say, Hey, can you give me some accountability? Cause I'm not aware when my tone goes to a certain level or I'm not aware when I'm emotionally not like in control or I'm not aware of XYZ. And I just want to invite you without any penalty. to able to call me to account without feeling any threat or there'll be no penalty if you do that. So accountability is a really, really good thing for an eight ⁓ eights often there's this beautiful inner sensitive soul, but it often has developed an exterior shell that doesn't feel like an invitation for other people to give you feedback that might be critical. So you're gonna have to pursue that.
Tyler Zach (AJ): love that. All right. Let's talk nine.
AJ Sherrill: The nine, your fixation is typically daydreaming. Again, a lot of times people put a lot of stuff on you. You're seen as such a resource in the room. Low energy people, that's a compliment by the way. People that when you walk in a room, you don't make people feel anxious, you actually are a gift. But you your vice is sloth, your virtue is action. And so your fixation where you can get stuck is that kind of daydreaming thing. I won't go into that because you're probably well aware of the theory behind that and all that stuff. But I'll say the downstream for you. What I have found is that when you get stuck in daydreaming, it's really good for you to find time in creation. I find that nines find a reintegration with who they are and what they're about. It can be easy and tempting for nines to lose their vision about what they're about. You know, they're so busy trying to help other people navigate their way and keep everyone together that they forget, well, what is it that I want? And what is it that I'm called to? So nature and creation have a sense of being able to do that and restore that for you. So whether it's something in the mountains or a regular hike or a stream or a pond that you sit by, that's a kind of restorative and rebalancing commitment to who you are and what you are about. it also helps you get in touch with what your passion is. I say that the upstream practice you need to pay attention to is something like fixed hour prayer. Fixed hour is this kind of like invitation to be interrupted because you can get kind of pulled into a thousand things during a day. ⁓ and lose track of what matters most. Fixed-hour prayer is that constant sort of, whether it's in the morning and then at lunch and evening, whatever that is, routinizing times to reintegrate and to refocus, re-prioritize, to step back and to say, okay, Lord, am yours. ⁓ me to my convictions. Let me not lose my way with all of these things that are being put on me. ⁓ fixed-hour prayer is one of the ways that you do that. ⁓ Tickle had this beautiful book. called The Divine Hours, but she's got this other less known book called The Divine Hours Pocket Edition. And I used to keep this by my bedside, and Elena and I, my bride, we would read these prayers out loud together before we went to bed. And it was a way of re-centering, oh yeah, what I'm carrying right now, I can let go of, and I can give to the Lord and just rest and sleep in the name of Jesus. And I don't have to stay up through the night and carry this. And so I find that that sort of pocket edition with morning, afternoon, evening prayers is a really great resource to kind of be in touch with who you are in your resource and what you're about. So those are two ways that I think are really helpful for NINES to check in with.
Tyler Zach (AJ): then it's already good with their routines. So if they can implement fixed hour prayer, it could be a very beautiful habit ⁓
AJ Sherrill: be the Psalms in the morning, Psalms in the evening. Like it doesn't have to be a big fancy to do. It's just stopping to say, I don't want to lose focus of what it is that I'm really called to. And I think that's a really good practice for a nine. For the one, ⁓ your vices is anger ⁓ and your virtue is serenity. Your fixation where you get stuck ⁓ is this idea of resentment that can just up. And it's really important when you think about fixation for all of these types, it's important that you look at your fixation because your fixation is going to give you all sorts of knowledge about what practices could help alleviate and develop that fixation into a virtue. So I think ones need constant help in letting stuff go because stuff builds up. People not performing to the level they need to or keeping their commitments, you not feeling like you're as perfect or as good as you should be at this point. All that stuff gets in the way. And so the downstream for one I have found also, but for a sort of a ⁓ different reason, ⁓ have found that it's really good for ones. to spend time also in nature. the reason why this matters so much is because ones can get in touch with the reality that life is really big and it's really wild and it's okay for not everything to be within your control. That there's a place for you to look out in the sort of artistry of what God has created. ⁓ when you look at a tree, it's not perfectly symmetric. That branch may not be what you like. That ⁓ or that... trail or that animal may not be as beautiful as you think it is or whatever. It helps you to get some perspective that maybe life doesn't have to be as curated and perfect as we wish it were right now. Makes sense for some of the wild chaos in the world. And so that can happen through creation. The downstream or the upstream you need to pay attention to is journaling. I always ⁓ ones what is similar to nines but for different reasons. They can kind of bottle up all their resentments and angers and sort of imperfections in the world. And it just kind of sits here. What happens with journaling is it gets it out to where, you you can't change what you can't name. And if you can get it out of you, then it's no longer you. It's this thing right here, this situation, this conflict. That's not who I am. I'm writing it out. This needs to change. I get it. And so I'm going to differentiate that from who I am and my identity. But here's the thing. When you journal, start with what's working in life rather than what's not. It's really easy for ones to start with what's not working and what needs to change, what needs growth and progress. For ones to say, okay, something in my life somewhere, something's working. Let me start with that. And what happens is that kind of gratitude, it cultivates joy. And that's a very different disposition than sort of relating to everything in this life through like, ⁓ it's not good. It should be better, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, you're right about that. But let's start with something that's working in your life and let's cultivate some joy first and then we can get to all that stuff.
Tyler Zach (AJ): love that very helpful
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, The vice of the two is that sort of subversive pride masks itself in service. The is humility. It's beautiful ⁓ when are ⁓ at with who they are and they're confident in their identity and their resource, they're flowing. Humility is how ⁓ it's what's at work underneath all of that. Your fixation can be flattery. Like you need people ⁓ to ⁓ ⁓ to affirm what did. And so that's really helpful to think about, what practices might help me ward some of that off, that need to be needed and to be valued and to hear that back. The downstream for you is hospitality. That's like super obvious. It's like finding, ⁓ have a sixth sense as a two of knowing where there's need and knowing how to fill it. Like you can read a room better than anybody emotionally. You can tell who's hurting very quickly. ⁓ You can tell who's thriving very quickly and you kind of veer toward the need and what needs to happen in that room. like hospitality, whatever that is and whatever vein that comes natural for you, just continue to do that because people see you as such a joy. The thing I always tell Tues, and I think this might be the most important thing I say in any of my workshops, for Tues, you have to learn to work from love and not for love. That's it. When you learn to work from an inner resource of of the identity God has given you that you don't have to prove or you don't have to earn. When you know that and you're living from that, you're working from love. You have a resource. You don't need someone to affirm you. It's great when they do, but you don't need that because you already know who you are and you serve because God's filled you and that God has washed your feet. But when you work for love, like you're doing this and a kind of quid pro quo, that can get into all sorts of mischief. So just pay attention to that. because it is your downstream, but make sure you know your motive of why you're doing what you're doing. The upstream for you is ⁓ centering prayer. That's like super hard to just sit with a sacred word or with your breath and just allow yourself to be in God's presence without doing anything. know, twos like to prioritize doing over being. And sometimes they think if they do certain things and they can become someone. And it's just the opposite in the kingdom of God. Jesus says, no, I've made you, you are someone. Therefore, go ⁓ the things I've called you to do. because you are a kind of person that I'm putting my spirit in and you're filled. So it's that sense of sitting in God's presence as first part of your day or as the last part of your day, saying, like, I just want to sit with you. I know you don't need me to do anything for you. I don't need to be Martha right now. ⁓ Mary the better way right now for me. ⁓ I be Martha later. Let me be Mary in this moment and sit at your feet. It's that sort ⁓ of that's really, really helpful. So ⁓ I for ⁓ I mean, Thomas Keating is so good at this, at open heart, open mind. A lot of his works are really helpful. A of my books, ⁓ stuff has gone in this direction of saying, ⁓ think the types that need contemplative spirituality, learning to center and slow and take solitude and stillness, I the types that need that most are types ⁓ one nine, the types that need contemplative prayer most. ⁓ It's types through nine. particularly types two. Type two really needs to learn to be before doing.
Tyler Zach (AJ): That's so good. All nine types need contemplative spirituality. I love that.
AJ Sherrill: All nine. Some people have said to me before, oh, you know, there's some types that don't need that because they're inner critics. Like, got it. Then they need to figure out what to Every type needs to sit in the presence of God. Jesus did it. He was constantly leaving crowds. He was in the wilderness for 40 days. What do we think he was doing? Just talking the whole time? He was in the presence of God, stillness and silence and solitude. Super helpful to put that into your day. The seven's going to need that, which we'll get to in a second, but for different reasons. Let's move on to the three. Yeah, our fixation is vanity for those that resonate with three. like projection, presentation, all of that stuff. It's all under the metric of success or trying to be someone identity stuff can get really woven in there. Our vices deceit. So you got to think like what practices are going to help me be honest, are going help me be vulnerable and not hide or not present something. Obviously your downstream is anything in the Greek word cataphatic meaning sensory experience. So like ⁓ You're growing in your knowledge, you're growing in your capacity, you're growing in your strengths, you know, you're learning to sort of have goal orientation or a 365 day reading plan or crushing this book or the series of books by Dallas Willard or whatever. Those are really great. Like, and then you're teaching or you're sort of exercising those somewhere in the world. That's fantastic. Know why you do what you do, not just what you do. The upstream for you to pay attention to is confession. It's someone in your life that just isn't impressed with you. It has permission to be like, I know what you're like. It's almost like every single spiritual leader at some point needs that person from seventh grade. It's like, yeah, but I knew you win. And you're not really all that. It's really good for a three to always have someone in their life that has that kind of access to say, know what you were like on vacation last summer and you don't. Whatever you do on stage or whatever you do wherever, it doesn't me. I love you for who you are. And so that person that you can be honest with about your struggles in life, because so much of a three is about presenting a of life that's enviable, at least honorable and desirable. So having someone in your life to say like, ⁓ I care about all that stuff, I care about you. ⁓ And want you to grow, I want you to be authentic, ⁓ God through all that stuff. And you need to be aware of that and live in the light of that reality. So I find confessions really good for a three to find someone that is going to love them no matter what that they can confess their shadow side to is really helpful practice.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Yeah, being married to a six helpful. She's not, I mean, she loves me, but she is not impressed with the things I try hard to do well. She's not impressed with Instagram followers. She's not impressed with image. when I was writing the type six book, I kind of was struck by the idea that sixes are one of the least romantic types. Because they're not they're not easily infatuated with people. They don't get caught up in image and Impressive things they want substance they they want to be for six They want to be your lifelong loyal friend to the desire friendship even more so than romance and so I it's been so helpful being to a six who ⁓ more about substance and ⁓ me for who I am and Loved even when I had to shave my head when I turned 30 as a three. I loved my spiky blonde hair And, know, like cares about that? You know, to have somebody that loves me for ⁓ which has just been transformative in my life.
AJ Sherrill: I think pastorally a bald head carries much more credibility than spiky blonde hair. you're in a good spot.
Tyler Zach (AJ): I think so. man, I'm envious of you. got the collar, glasses. I've seen pictures and I've been envious as a fellow through and for, but I appreciate that. you. ⁓ Thank you for me. ⁓ We'll just go and forth the rest of interview.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, and we'll call that a session. That's Type four. We'll move on. I know your listeners like shut up AJ Let's just finish this so we can move on with our lives. You know, you struggle for emotional balance That's like that's the main struggle of fixation is around melancholy You get stuck and you think that ⁓ my goodness like my experience is all there is in the world and it's easy to shrink that down I'm a four-wing I can do that very easily that what I'm experiencing is all there is to experience in this world You know your advice can be envy especially of others when they when they succeed. so emotional balance is what you're looking for. And so think about what practices bring you emotional balance, bring you calm, bring you a sense of seeing a wider angle, a panorama view of life that it's not just you, though matter. And so like solitude, journaling, all that stuff's downstream for you. You're really good at journaling, at ⁓ creating, expressing how you feel. That's a really great thing to do. ⁓ And I always tell fours with that downstream, start by journaling, like prayer for other people. Like get out of your own narrative long enough to say, I'm not just gonna write about what I'm feeling and what I'm going through and blah, blah. ⁓ wanna start with, hey, I wanna pray for Lucy because she's wrestling with cancer. I wanna pray for Mark because know he's really going through a hard time with his dad. Whatever that is, whatever you're aware of,
Tyler Zach (AJ): Start
AJ Sherrill: It's good for you to get out of yourself long enough to enter into the story of another and you're you're typically really good at that anyway. So it kind of takes the edge off of you like being so self reflective, which is going to come natural. And it disciplines you in your journal to say, let me start with a larger frame and work backwards from there. Your upstream practice that force ⁓ is ⁓ is feasting. It's easy to avoid that stuff. I always tell force like be the one at every party, graduation, birth. birthday, be the one that brings joy to the room. Be the one that brings the bottle of champagne. It's kind of a resistance of like, ⁓ man, like, I want to celebrate me or I want to loathe in my circumstance. It's a great practice. Let me get out of that and celebrate the gift of someone else. ⁓ And don't need to be made much of here. I don't need any attention. I just want to give my attention to their existence. And so that's a really great thing is to never avoid feasting. Feasting is a, Jesus was always feasting with people. I mean, he'd go and look at a tree and say, hey, I'm going to your house. Let's do this, right? And they would feast. So I think that's a really good practice that forests need to pay attention to, otherwise their melancholy can get the best of them. For the five, ⁓ the five is, you know, that investigator, your fixation is stinginess, particularly around the greed of knowledge, the things you know, the research, all of the ⁓ way cerebrally, your brain is just so beautifully and wonderfully made. There's an underside to that. Your is greed around those things. Your virtue is a kind of non-attachment to those things. I won't go into it here, but I always talk about the five being like a cell phone battery icon where you're always evaluating is this next conversation going to drain that battery a lot or should I avoid it? Right. So you're constantly thinking about how do I conserve energy? How do I hoard my knowledge? That kind of stuff. ⁓ cause you worked hard for it. ⁓ so like when it comes to your downstream practices, anything that allows you to acquire knowledge, whether this is inductive Bible study or reading, or podcasts and getting insight. also I always tell fives like, take what would it look like for you to your morning commute to just not listen to anything but just to say, is there anything you want to say to me? You know, take or whatever that time is in the morning, maybe it's not meant always for information. Maybe it's or to listen, maybe it's just meant to say like, here at your pleasure Lord and so whatever you want to say, I'm just and if it's just ⁓ I'm fine with that too. But anything acquiring information and knowledge is really meaningful for the five reading books, all that stuff. Really, really meaningful. But you're upstream. I always challenge fives is integration. It's thinking about your brain. Your brain is actually diffused into the rest of your body. So like whether it's your nerves or whether it's the signals that it's sending, even me moving my hands right now, I'm moving my hands because of my brain and I'm telling. to like take the things that you know in your mind and diffuse them into your hands, diffuse them into your feet. I find that really fascinating that our faith is actually not what we think here, it's what we do with our feet, because what we do with our feet reveals what we really believe here, what we really think here. So our faith is with our feet. So I always tell fives like integrate what you know into your life. You're not just an ideator, you're not just someone that has ideas. You're someone that's also been called to integrate what you know into your life that other people would experience your flesh. Not like Sarc's bad way, but like flesh, like in a way that Jesus came in flesh. Jesus didn't send the text message. Jesus came in flesh to be with us. Well, with fives, people want to be with you. You typically have favor with people. And so learn to serve and learn to allow what you know to be in flesh, in service, in showing up, in hospitality, in integrating your faith into your life. That's a big part of the five life is that integration that I would always just affirm. So whatever that looks like, go for it.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Just the whole yeah difference between knowledge and wisdom which the practical application of knowledge ⁓ huge. That's a huge point for fives to to understand though
AJ Sherrill: Information is not transformation. Those are not synonymous, right?
Tyler Zach (AJ): That's
AJ Sherrill: All righty, moving on to the six. Two left. The six. As you know, sixes have that fixation of fear, of cowardice, right? You can get stuck there. It kind of prevents you from moving forward. It's like a ton of fits and starts with certain things. Your virtue is courage. So I think Peter is like, I do a whole thing on biblical narratives in that book of, we find, you know, I'm not saying Peter's a six. I'm just saying we see a lot of six. presentation in his life of fits and starts of like, I'm gonna die for you, Lord. And he's denying him the next moment. I'm gonna come out to the water to you, Lord. And he's sinking the next moment, right? These sorts of like strange extremes of like starts and stops. So fear can really get in the way. And I always tell sixes that you're downstream is what's called lexio divina. So there's this fear of contemplative prayer because what if I am silent before God and Satan enters in? Or what if I have negative talk or I can't do this, right? All this stuff that gets in the And it's like, okay, fine. Start with the scripture, do Lectio Divina, these four pivots, read a scripture for a few minutes, and then reflect on it, and then write about it, and then rest. Know that after you've written about it, God hears all that, He's got it, and now you can just sit in the presence of God. So Lectio Divina is a safe way to say it's a movement. Imagine like you're going down into a pool. So it's a movement where you begin with the scripture, and you're moving down, down, down, down, down, until you end with just a little just being with God in the streams of the living water. And you don't have to say anything, you don't have to add anything, it's just you're with God face to face in the presence. so, Alexia Divina, if you know what that is, you can look it up, it's super simple. I talk about it my book, Being With God as well, but it's just like a way to be with God that starts with the safety of the scripture and moving us into the human heart of just being in God's presence. So ⁓ a really great downstream practice for sixes. The upstream practice for you, I just say is Scripture memory. Not that that's particularly hard for you, but to say that like fear is such a theme in the Scripture. Someone once said there's like 365 verses about fear, one for every day. You I don't know if that's true. But it is to say like there's something about rooting God's Word in your heart, that when you're feeling that fear, to have Scripture in your heart, to say like, yeah, I'm going to claim this because I know God's called me to this and I don't want fear to win the day. I've hidden the scripture in my heart to remind me in moments like this, ⁓ yeah, I'm not a fearful person. ⁓ do this. I can stand into this. This is what God is calling me to do. So those are really good things for sixes that I would say have been really helpful. ⁓ also find sixes really love singing. In my research, I found that sixes love worship music. Not to say if you're six and you don't, whatever, ⁓ they're But I think what's happening is there's a kind of safety ⁓ and hearing other voices of like, okay, I'm not crazy to believe this stuff. So like being in a worshiping body or listening to worship music, that can be like a really great practice because it just reminds you you're not alone.
Tyler Zach (AJ): to have ⁓ singing ⁓ to sort of drown out the inner committee and the doubt and the. ⁓ You're singing very much like singing your confidence in the Lord and ⁓ to have that drown out some that, that fear and all that, constant questioning could probably be one of the why it's so singing so powerful. ⁓ That's ⁓ good.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, absolutely. All right, we'll wrap it with the seven. we love them. Their vices gluttony, which you can imagine. Maybe there's some practices that would be helpful. Their virtue sobriety, their fixation ⁓ is anticipation. Adventure can of get in the way of actually being present in the moment. Everything becomes future orientation, planning the next thing, right? ⁓ So your is obvious, it's feasting. But here's what I would say. Like if you're gonna show up to the party, if you're gonna show up, at the thing, ⁓ know, gluttony can take a lot of different forms. It can be needing to feel important at a thing, or it can be drinking too much wine or eating too much or too little. Like there's this like, this thing that you have to know about yourself of where am I prone to gluttony? can be binge watching, whatever, whatever. So like analyzing yourself, like, wow, where am I prone to sort of alleviating my pain by excessively participating in this thing that's sort of used as a strategy to avoid what's hard. And when you do that, it's good to have a plan before you get there. Like, for example, if you struggle with wine, have a plan before you show up to the party that I'm only going to have one glass tonight, or I'm not going to have any, I don't need that tab at the time. Having a kind of plan before you get somewhere to say this is the ceiling, this is this is as far as I'm going to go tonight, because I don't want to over rely on excess in order to to numb out or to Avoid that which I don't want to focus or or or notice so know feasting is good, but just make sure you're aware of your boundaries when you do that ⁓ The upstream for you is going to be solitude and silence. ⁓ I recommend you do that every day for a particular period of time ⁓ You know ⁓ tend to Want to avoid pain And so silence and solitude are one of those practices where like, why would I do that? Then I'm going to have to think about and actually like reflect on the thing that I don't want to be thinking about and reflecting on. So it's really good for sevens to say, solitude and silence, like God's going to meet me in that place and counsel me through those things rather than avoiding them. And I would encourage sevens to find a time period, 10, 20, 30 minutes a day where it's uninterrupted. There's no phone. It's just you. You can walk. And it's just like time for you to reflect and read or be around things that are going to help you process what your past and your present. And so those are are practices that are pretty obvious for sevens, but things that are ⁓ good. And again, like all of these, like, ⁓ know, there's a whole panoply of practices, whether it's the Spiritual Disciplines Handbook by Kao Kuen, ⁓ it's Celebration in Discipline by Foster. We have so many different resources in terms of spiritual practice. And it's finding out what's my fixation, where am I stuck? And then like, what do I imagine would be transformative for me if the presence of God were to actually like be there while that was happening, right? And it's having a plan for your life. And I think most ⁓ life is just like, have a plan, right? Show up. Like 90 % of spirituality is like showing up, like you said about the gym. And it's amazing what happens, but the lives we're living right now by default, we're not showing up. We're reacting. We're rushing from one thing to the next. We're not actually living our lives. We have agendas that are living our lives for us. And we need to take stock and to step back and to say, who is it that I want to be? Because no one ever became like Jesus by accident. And so if you are not intentional, you will not become like Jesus accidentally. and it's taking that sort of agency for your formation and being able to have a plan for what it is God wants to do in and through you in your life.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Well, and how did you first learn about the Enneagram? This is not something that's new for you, right? You've ⁓ been studying Enneagram for quite a while.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, I've been teaching workshops for seven, 10 years now. I first studied it accidentally. I was in a doctorate course with Father Richard Rohr back in like a long time ago. was in Albuquerque. Really? And one of my friends, we teach now Fuller, the Enneagram at the doctorate program there named Mark Scandrette. And Mark had heard of the Enneagram, I had not. And he started asking him questions and we got him totally off topic. So like we spent a half a day
Tyler Zach: He's also the author of a number of other popular books such as Rediscovering Christmas and Being with God. Our conversation today centers around one of the topics of his Enneagram book, which is spiritual disciplines for every Enneagram type, what he calls upstream and downstream disciplines. I respect and admire AJ for being a pioneer in this area, finding innovative ways to blend the Enneagram and spirituality together.
AJ Sherrill: just grilling Richard Rohr on the Enneagram, because he had written a book eons ago on it. it was my first experience with it. And it was so beautiful because it wasn't like self-congratulatory stuff. I was sort of at a place in my journey where I just needed resistance. I needed some sort of opposition to say, listen, like you need to pay attention to the shadow side of your life. ⁓ that's what the Enneagram did for me. It wasn't just like behavioral, but it was the thing under the thing under the thing. And it got to my motives. So a pastor, it's easy to present.
Tyler Zach: and I think you will too by the end of this episode. If you want to learn more about AJ and his writing and speaking work, visit ajscherl.org. Now, without further ado, let's jump into the conversation.
AJ Sherrill: in certain ways and yet have like a really shallow or shadowed inner life. So all that came out. It was a really good journey for me. And it was really, I didn't get into it to teach it. I had no idea I'd ever write on it. It was just so helpful. so I really delved into that. And then I met a woman in Greenwich, Connecticut. I was pastoring in Manhattan at the time. Her was Suzanne Stabile. A guy Ian Cron had invited me out to Connecticut to do a workshop with them. And this was before they wrote The Road Back to You. And so they were sort of beta testing their material and doing that together. And so I said to Suzanne at a break, I'm like, hey, listen, I'm about to start my dissertation. Has anyone done any work from a Christian perspective on spiritual practices based on your type? Because your type can't be about just knowing your type. You have to work it. You have to sort of develop yourself within that to grow. And in other words, what do we do with what we know? Is anyone writing on that? And she said, to my understanding for the church, I've not seen that book. So was like, I got my dissertation. So I started doing that, published that, and then it got picked up by a publisher and just started really and writing. And it's been a journey ever since. So yeah, my is really personal. So it's not like, ⁓ that's cool. Let me wield it, which a three can do. But it really shaped me ⁓ is still me a lot ⁓ of insight about how I need to continue to be shaped to grow into Christ's likeness.
Tyler Zach (AJ): let's dive into the spiritual but before we do that, is there anything you want to say about what Christians should pay attention to specifically the enneagram and spiritual formation? there any way you'd frame up the conversation about the importance of why you use the enneagram and spiritual formation before we kind of go around the enneagram? ⁓
AJ Sherrill: Sure, yeah, it's not Jesus. And so I don't, I'm not an apologist for it. So some people are like, oh my goodness, it's the Antichrist. It's like, you know, if that's what you think you can have, it's been super helpful for me, but only because it's a, it's a means. It's not an end. When the Enneagram becomes an end, it can be an idol and it can be kind of a strange token-y sort of a parlor trick conversation. And that can also simultaneously exclude people around you. So be aware of that. If people aren't aware of the Enneagram or don't know all that stuff, it can just be a massive turnoff. So I just tell people like, you gotta work your number. It's not about knowing your number. It just gives us information about who we are, why we do what we do, and how we might grow. So that's what I'm really interested in. I'm more interested in Jesus and pursuing than I am the Enneagram. The Enneagram is just a tool that's given me information to do that more ⁓ precisely.
Tyler Zach (AJ): that's so good. Where do you start in book? Do you start at type one or do you start with the heart types or gut types? ⁓
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, I love triads. So I'll start with the eight. I only do that I think because because Suzanne Stabil taught me to do that in her workshop. And I've noticed that triads are often those energy centers are often a great place to help kind of bring themes together. Today, we're just going to be talking about some practices, but I'll probably start with the eight anyway.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Okay. Can you, in your book, you talk about there being upstream practices and downstream practices. Do you want to give those watching a little bit of an orientation about what you mean by upstream and downstream?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, so imagine yourself floating on a lazy river. So you're on the raft. Downstream are practices that come natural for you. So if you're just sitting there, there's no work. It doesn't take a lot of resistance or energy. If you kind of want to do these things, there are things in each of us that we naturally are sort of, we're prone to want to do as we pursue the presence of God. And then there are things that sort of great against our personality. We're like, I don't want to do that. I don't connect in that way. I don't connect with people like that, or I don't connect with nature like that, or I don't connect with books like that. I'm not cerebral, et cetera, et cetera. So those are things that we have to pay attention to because sometimes those are things that actually shape us most. It's like being in a gym and you notice like, like that practice and exercise. I don't like that exercise. And sometimes it's that exercise that actually your body needs most. And so I like to invite people to consider Not necessarily throwing things out that are downstream that you like, but also paying attention to upstream things you might avoid. Because the spiritual life, all of life, is integrated. Head, heart, will, right? All of this stuff, the Shema spirituality we get from Deuteronomy in Numbers is integrated all the way through. So we're not just bobbleheads, nor are we just kind of emotive people, nor are we just activists. All of this has to work together in movement toward the kingdom. And so practices help us sort of get a better holistic sort of way engaging all of our being so that we can be formed at every level of who we are.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Yes, I love it. Okay, do you want to start with type eights then?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will. And let me just give a quick anecdote before I do. I was on a hike with my daughter this weekend and we were looking at waterfalls and this waterfall was, don't think Niagara, it was like a gentle flowing water over like a big rock face. So we get to the bottom and we finally make it about an hour into the clearing and we come upon this waterfall and immediately I just felt like, you know, we've heard something like this before, but I think that's it. That's what I'm trying to say through Formation. And I went home and I just kind of like, as Eloise and I, my daughter, were looking at this cliff and this water coming over it and all this rock, it was just this idea of just as a cliffs, sharp edged rocks are slowly smoothed, because it was almost like shiny, the rock, but just as a cliffs, sharp edged rocks are slowly smoothed through the constant flow of running water. So our sharp edged souls are constantly smoothed. through the constant flow of life experience and spiritual practices. That there's something about these practices that sort of help us smooth out the jagged edges of the soul, of the tongue, of the mind, that over time do work on us in order to make us less sort of jagged and much more smooth and less quick to react. ⁓ that we can sort of gain more clarity in life and sort of live with that level of intelligence on every level. So when we talk about practices, what we're talking about is how do we give ourselves in different ways to the presence of God? Because it's in the presence that we become formed and shaped. So the practices themselves are not the thing. They are just the thing that gets us to the real thing, which is God's presence. So practices without presence is just religion. But what does it mean to practice in such a way that you're grafting on and allowing God's presence to totally permeate your life? That's where the transformation happens.
Tyler Zach (AJ): So again type eights, do you want to start with?
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, let's start with the eights. The thing where you are stuck, typically fixation for the eights. And as I talk about this, wherever are in the Enneagram, some of these things will be helpful. And I also think that the one practice is like, do that for the rest of your life. Like anything, even working out, you have to ⁓ change your rhythm your workouts. so we don't prescribe these, describe some of these things. And so take them as you see fit for the season you're in. You know, the fixation for the aid is vengeance. You know, it's easy for you to kind of get in that place, even like an inner bitterness if you're not careful. You know, your vice can be aggression, but you're also really justice and goal oriented, as you know. like to talk about like the downstream for this practice ⁓ so obvious. It's that commitment. It's doubling down to say, I am going to ⁓ for the common good. I'm going to contend for justice and what I believe is right in the world. but it's also doing it in a way that you don't create unnecessary adversaries along the way. You know, I find that aides can become so determined in their right to fight for justice that they can actually create a lot of unhealthy relationships along the way because it's this goal and we're gonna do that. We need to change the system, et cetera, et cetera. All beautiful, but realize like other people exist and ⁓ need them in the story with us. But nevertheless, your downward stream, keep going. ⁓ Contend for what is right, what is good, what is true, what is beautiful, all those things at your work and your home and your neighborhood, whatever that is in the world. And we just affirm that in you and that you lead us so well when it comes to seeing truth rightly and in that direction. Take us along the ride ⁓ and be slow to be upset with the rest of us who maybe aren't as fast as you to see that. Your upstream I would say you're gonna have to press against ⁓ is accountability. The reason for that is because Eights are typically powerful people and because of that they can unintentionally be ⁓ or they can be seen as sort of people that are not open to other people's voices. ⁓ That's not the way Eights feel inside, but it's what they project this kind of like amazing strength that the underside of that is people don't always feel the freedom ⁓ to truthfully because they can be intimidating. And so it's that, it's that, you know, they say, think it was Suzanne told me, or maybe it was the Delcarne that eights might have like, you know, they can count the people that really know them over their lifetime on one hand. So it's like, is there someone you can invite into your season to say, Hey, can you give me some accountability? Cause I'm not aware when my tone goes to a certain level or I'm not aware when I'm emotionally not like in control or I'm not aware of XYZ. And I just want to invite you without any penalty. to able to call me to account without feeling any threat or there'll be no penalty if you do that. So accountability is a really, really good thing for an eight ⁓ eights often there's this beautiful inner sensitive soul, but it often has developed an exterior shell that doesn't feel like an invitation for other people to give you feedback that might be critical. So you're gonna have to pursue that.
Tyler Zach (AJ): love that. All right. Let's talk nine.
AJ Sherrill: The nine, your fixation is typically daydreaming. Again, a lot of times people put a lot of stuff on you. You're seen as such a resource in the room. Low energy people, that's a compliment by the way. People that when you walk in a room, you don't make people feel anxious, you actually are a gift. But you your vice is sloth, your virtue is action. And so your fixation where you can get stuck is that kind of daydreaming thing. I won't go into that because you're probably well aware of the theory behind that and all that stuff. But I'll say the downstream for you. What I have found is that when you get stuck in daydreaming, it's really good for you to find time in creation. I find that nines find a reintegration with who they are and what they're about. It can be easy and tempting for nines to lose their vision about what they're about. You know, they're so busy trying to help other people navigate their way and keep everyone together that they forget, well, what is it that I want? And what is it that I'm called to? So nature and creation have a sense of being able to do that and restore that for you. So whether it's something in the mountains or a regular hike or a stream or a pond that you sit by, that's a kind of restorative and rebalancing commitment to who you are and what you are about. it also helps you get in touch with what your passion is. I say that the upstream practice you need to pay attention to is something like fixed hour prayer. Fixed hour is this kind of like invitation to be interrupted because you can get kind of pulled into a thousand things during a day. ⁓ and lose track of what matters most. Fixed-hour prayer is that constant sort of, whether it's in the morning and then at lunch and evening, whatever that is, routinizing times to reintegrate and to refocus, re-prioritize, to step back and to say, okay, Lord, am yours. ⁓ me to my convictions. Let me not lose my way with all of these things that are being put on me. ⁓ fixed-hour prayer is one of the ways that you do that. ⁓ Tickle had this beautiful book. called The Divine Hours, but she's got this other less known book called The Divine Hours Pocket Edition. And I used to keep this by my bedside, and Elena and I, my bride, we would read these prayers out loud together before we went to bed. And it was a way of re-centering, oh yeah, what I'm carrying right now, I can let go of, and I can give to the Lord and just rest and sleep in the name of Jesus. And I don't have to stay up through the night and carry this. And so I find that that sort of pocket edition with morning, afternoon, evening prayers is a really great resource to kind of be in touch with who you are in your resource and what you're about. So those are two ways that I think are really helpful for NINES to check in with.
Tyler Zach (AJ): then it's already good with their routines. So if they can implement fixed hour prayer, it could be a very beautiful habit ⁓
AJ Sherrill: be the Psalms in the morning, Psalms in the evening. Like it doesn't have to be a big fancy to do. It's just stopping to say, I don't want to lose focus of what it is that I'm really called to. And I think that's a really good practice for a nine. For the one, ⁓ your vices is anger ⁓ and your virtue is serenity. Your fixation where you get stuck ⁓ is this idea of resentment that can just up. And it's really important when you think about fixation for all of these types, it's important that you look at your fixation because your fixation is going to give you all sorts of knowledge about what practices could help alleviate and develop that fixation into a virtue. So I think ones need constant help in letting stuff go because stuff builds up. People not performing to the level they need to or keeping their commitments, you not feeling like you're as perfect or as good as you should be at this point. All that stuff gets in the way. And so the downstream for one I have found also, but for a sort of a ⁓ different reason, ⁓ have found that it's really good for ones. to spend time also in nature. the reason why this matters so much is because ones can get in touch with the reality that life is really big and it's really wild and it's okay for not everything to be within your control. That there's a place for you to look out in the sort of artistry of what God has created. ⁓ when you look at a tree, it's not perfectly symmetric. That branch may not be what you like. That ⁓ or that... trail or that animal may not be as beautiful as you think it is or whatever. It helps you to get some perspective that maybe life doesn't have to be as curated and perfect as we wish it were right now. Makes sense for some of the wild chaos in the world. And so that can happen through creation. The downstream or the upstream you need to pay attention to is journaling. I always ⁓ ones what is similar to nines but for different reasons. They can kind of bottle up all their resentments and angers and sort of imperfections in the world. And it just kind of sits here. What happens with journaling is it gets it out to where, you you can't change what you can't name. And if you can get it out of you, then it's no longer you. It's this thing right here, this situation, this conflict. That's not who I am. I'm writing it out. This needs to change. I get it. And so I'm going to differentiate that from who I am and my identity. But here's the thing. When you journal, start with what's working in life rather than what's not. It's really easy for ones to start with what's not working and what needs to change, what needs growth and progress. For ones to say, okay, something in my life somewhere, something's working. Let me start with that. And what happens is that kind of gratitude, it cultivates joy. And that's a very different disposition than sort of relating to everything in this life through like, ⁓ it's not good. It should be better, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, you're right about that. But let's start with something that's working in your life and let's cultivate some joy first and then we can get to all that stuff.
Tyler Zach (AJ): love that very helpful
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, The vice of the two is that sort of subversive pride masks itself in service. The is humility. It's beautiful ⁓ when are ⁓ at with who they are and they're confident in their identity and their resource, they're flowing. Humility is how ⁓ it's what's at work underneath all of that. Your fixation can be flattery. Like you need people ⁓ to ⁓ ⁓ to affirm what did. And so that's really helpful to think about, what practices might help me ward some of that off, that need to be needed and to be valued and to hear that back. The downstream for you is hospitality. That's like super obvious. It's like finding, ⁓ have a sixth sense as a two of knowing where there's need and knowing how to fill it. Like you can read a room better than anybody emotionally. You can tell who's hurting very quickly. ⁓ You can tell who's thriving very quickly and you kind of veer toward the need and what needs to happen in that room. like hospitality, whatever that is and whatever vein that comes natural for you, just continue to do that because people see you as such a joy. The thing I always tell Tues, and I think this might be the most important thing I say in any of my workshops, for Tues, you have to learn to work from love and not for love. That's it. When you learn to work from an inner resource of of the identity God has given you that you don't have to prove or you don't have to earn. When you know that and you're living from that, you're working from love. You have a resource. You don't need someone to affirm you. It's great when they do, but you don't need that because you already know who you are and you serve because God's filled you and that God has washed your feet. But when you work for love, like you're doing this and a kind of quid pro quo, that can get into all sorts of mischief. So just pay attention to that. because it is your downstream, but make sure you know your motive of why you're doing what you're doing. The upstream for you is ⁓ centering prayer. That's like super hard to just sit with a sacred word or with your breath and just allow yourself to be in God's presence without doing anything. know, twos like to prioritize doing over being. And sometimes they think if they do certain things and they can become someone. And it's just the opposite in the kingdom of God. Jesus says, no, I've made you, you are someone. Therefore, go ⁓ the things I've called you to do. because you are a kind of person that I'm putting my spirit in and you're filled. So it's that sense of sitting in God's presence as first part of your day or as the last part of your day, saying, like, I just want to sit with you. I know you don't need me to do anything for you. I don't need to be Martha right now. ⁓ Mary the better way right now for me. ⁓ I be Martha later. Let me be Mary in this moment and sit at your feet. It's that sort ⁓ of that's really, really helpful. So ⁓ I for ⁓ I mean, Thomas Keating is so good at this, at open heart, open mind. A lot of his works are really helpful. A of my books, ⁓ stuff has gone in this direction of saying, ⁓ think the types that need contemplative spirituality, learning to center and slow and take solitude and stillness, I the types that need that most are types ⁓ one nine, the types that need contemplative prayer most. ⁓ It's types through nine. particularly types two. Type two really needs to learn to be before doing.
Tyler Zach (AJ): That's so good. All nine types need contemplative spirituality. I love that.
AJ Sherrill: All nine. Some people have said to me before, oh, you know, there's some types that don't need that because they're inner critics. Like, got it. Then they need to figure out what to Every type needs to sit in the presence of God. Jesus did it. He was constantly leaving crowds. He was in the wilderness for 40 days. What do we think he was doing? Just talking the whole time? He was in the presence of God, stillness and silence and solitude. Super helpful to put that into your day. The seven's going to need that, which we'll get to in a second, but for different reasons. Let's move on to the three. Yeah, our fixation is vanity for those that resonate with three. like projection, presentation, all of that stuff. It's all under the metric of success or trying to be someone identity stuff can get really woven in there. Our vices deceit. So you got to think like what practices are going to help me be honest, are going help me be vulnerable and not hide or not present something. Obviously your downstream is anything in the Greek word cataphatic meaning sensory experience. So like ⁓ You're growing in your knowledge, you're growing in your capacity, you're growing in your strengths, you know, you're learning to sort of have goal orientation or a 365 day reading plan or crushing this book or the series of books by Dallas Willard or whatever. Those are really great. Like, and then you're teaching or you're sort of exercising those somewhere in the world. That's fantastic. Know why you do what you do, not just what you do. The upstream for you to pay attention to is confession. It's someone in your life that just isn't impressed with you. It has permission to be like, I know what you're like. It's almost like every single spiritual leader at some point needs that person from seventh grade. It's like, yeah, but I knew you win. And you're not really all that. It's really good for a three to always have someone in their life that has that kind of access to say, know what you were like on vacation last summer and you don't. Whatever you do on stage or whatever you do wherever, it doesn't me. I love you for who you are. And so that person that you can be honest with about your struggles in life, because so much of a three is about presenting a of life that's enviable, at least honorable and desirable. So having someone in your life to say like, ⁓ I care about all that stuff, I care about you. ⁓ And want you to grow, I want you to be authentic, ⁓ God through all that stuff. And you need to be aware of that and live in the light of that reality. So I find confessions really good for a three to find someone that is going to love them no matter what that they can confess their shadow side to is really helpful practice.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Yeah, being married to a six helpful. She's not, I mean, she loves me, but she is not impressed with the things I try hard to do well. She's not impressed with Instagram followers. She's not impressed with image. when I was writing the type six book, I kind of was struck by the idea that sixes are one of the least romantic types. Because they're not they're not easily infatuated with people. They don't get caught up in image and Impressive things they want substance they they want to be for six They want to be your lifelong loyal friend to the desire friendship even more so than romance and so I it's been so helpful being to a six who ⁓ more about substance and ⁓ me for who I am and Loved even when I had to shave my head when I turned 30 as a three. I loved my spiky blonde hair And, know, like cares about that? You know, to have somebody that loves me for ⁓ which has just been transformative in my life.
AJ Sherrill: I think pastorally a bald head carries much more credibility than spiky blonde hair. you're in a good spot.
Tyler Zach (AJ): I think so. man, I'm envious of you. got the collar, glasses. I've seen pictures and I've been envious as a fellow through and for, but I appreciate that. you. ⁓ Thank you for me. ⁓ We'll just go and forth the rest of interview.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, and we'll call that a session. That's Type four. We'll move on. I know your listeners like shut up AJ Let's just finish this so we can move on with our lives. You know, you struggle for emotional balance That's like that's the main struggle of fixation is around melancholy You get stuck and you think that ⁓ my goodness like my experience is all there is in the world and it's easy to shrink that down I'm a four-wing I can do that very easily that what I'm experiencing is all there is to experience in this world You know your advice can be envy especially of others when they when they succeed. so emotional balance is what you're looking for. And so think about what practices bring you emotional balance, bring you calm, bring you a sense of seeing a wider angle, a panorama view of life that it's not just you, though matter. And so like solitude, journaling, all that stuff's downstream for you. You're really good at journaling, at ⁓ creating, expressing how you feel. That's a really great thing to do. ⁓ And I always tell fours with that downstream, start by journaling, like prayer for other people. Like get out of your own narrative long enough to say, I'm not just gonna write about what I'm feeling and what I'm going through and blah, blah. ⁓ wanna start with, hey, I wanna pray for Lucy because she's wrestling with cancer. I wanna pray for Mark because know he's really going through a hard time with his dad. Whatever that is, whatever you're aware of,
Tyler Zach (AJ): Start
AJ Sherrill: It's good for you to get out of yourself long enough to enter into the story of another and you're you're typically really good at that anyway. So it kind of takes the edge off of you like being so self reflective, which is going to come natural. And it disciplines you in your journal to say, let me start with a larger frame and work backwards from there. Your upstream practice that force ⁓ is ⁓ is feasting. It's easy to avoid that stuff. I always tell force like be the one at every party, graduation, birth. birthday, be the one that brings joy to the room. Be the one that brings the bottle of champagne. It's kind of a resistance of like, ⁓ man, like, I want to celebrate me or I want to loathe in my circumstance. It's a great practice. Let me get out of that and celebrate the gift of someone else. ⁓ And don't need to be made much of here. I don't need any attention. I just want to give my attention to their existence. And so that's a really great thing is to never avoid feasting. Feasting is a, Jesus was always feasting with people. I mean, he'd go and look at a tree and say, hey, I'm going to your house. Let's do this, right? And they would feast. So I think that's a really good practice that forests need to pay attention to, otherwise their melancholy can get the best of them. For the five, ⁓ the five is, you know, that investigator, your fixation is stinginess, particularly around the greed of knowledge, the things you know, the research, all of the ⁓ way cerebrally, your brain is just so beautifully and wonderfully made. There's an underside to that. Your is greed around those things. Your virtue is a kind of non-attachment to those things. I won't go into it here, but I always talk about the five being like a cell phone battery icon where you're always evaluating is this next conversation going to drain that battery a lot or should I avoid it? Right. So you're constantly thinking about how do I conserve energy? How do I hoard my knowledge? That kind of stuff. ⁓ cause you worked hard for it. ⁓ so like when it comes to your downstream practices, anything that allows you to acquire knowledge, whether this is inductive Bible study or reading, or podcasts and getting insight. also I always tell fives like, take what would it look like for you to your morning commute to just not listen to anything but just to say, is there anything you want to say to me? You know, take or whatever that time is in the morning, maybe it's not meant always for information. Maybe it's or to listen, maybe it's just meant to say like, here at your pleasure Lord and so whatever you want to say, I'm just and if it's just ⁓ I'm fine with that too. But anything acquiring information and knowledge is really meaningful for the five reading books, all that stuff. Really, really meaningful. But you're upstream. I always challenge fives is integration. It's thinking about your brain. Your brain is actually diffused into the rest of your body. So like whether it's your nerves or whether it's the signals that it's sending, even me moving my hands right now, I'm moving my hands because of my brain and I'm telling. to like take the things that you know in your mind and diffuse them into your hands, diffuse them into your feet. I find that really fascinating that our faith is actually not what we think here, it's what we do with our feet, because what we do with our feet reveals what we really believe here, what we really think here. So our faith is with our feet. So I always tell fives like integrate what you know into your life. You're not just an ideator, you're not just someone that has ideas. You're someone that's also been called to integrate what you know into your life that other people would experience your flesh. Not like Sarc's bad way, but like flesh, like in a way that Jesus came in flesh. Jesus didn't send the text message. Jesus came in flesh to be with us. Well, with fives, people want to be with you. You typically have favor with people. And so learn to serve and learn to allow what you know to be in flesh, in service, in showing up, in hospitality, in integrating your faith into your life. That's a big part of the five life is that integration that I would always just affirm. So whatever that looks like, go for it.
Tyler Zach (AJ): Just the whole yeah difference between knowledge and wisdom which the practical application of knowledge ⁓ huge. That's a huge point for fives to to understand though
AJ Sherrill: Information is not transformation. Those are not synonymous, right?
Tyler Zach (AJ): That's
AJ Sherrill: All righty, moving on to the six. Two left. The six. As you know, sixes have that fixation of fear, of cowardice, right? You can get stuck there. It kind of prevents you from moving forward. It's like a ton of fits and starts with certain things. Your virtue is courage. So I think Peter is like, I do a whole thing on biblical narratives in that book of, we find, you know, I'm not saying Peter's a six. I'm just saying we see a lot of six. presentation in his life of fits and starts of like, I'm gonna die for you, Lord. And he's denying him the next moment. I'm gonna come out to the water to you, Lord. And he's sinking the next moment, right? These sorts of like strange extremes of like starts and stops. So fear can really get in the way. And I always tell sixes that you're downstream is what's called lexio divina. So there's this fear of contemplative prayer because what if I am silent before God and Satan enters in? Or what if I have negative talk or I can't do this, right? All this stuff that gets in the And it's like, okay, fine. Start with the scripture, do Lectio Divina, these four pivots, read a scripture for a few minutes, and then reflect on it, and then write about it, and then rest. Know that after you've written about it, God hears all that, He's got it, and now you can just sit in the presence of God. So Lectio Divina is a safe way to say it's a movement. Imagine like you're going down into a pool. So it's a movement where you begin with the scripture, and you're moving down, down, down, down, down, until you end with just a little just being with God in the streams of the living water. And you don't have to say anything, you don't have to add anything, it's just you're with God face to face in the presence. so, Alexia Divina, if you know what that is, you can look it up, it's super simple. I talk about it my book, Being With God as well, but it's just like a way to be with God that starts with the safety of the scripture and moving us into the human heart of just being in God's presence. So ⁓ a really great downstream practice for sixes. The upstream practice for you, I just say is Scripture memory. Not that that's particularly hard for you, but to say that like fear is such a theme in the Scripture. Someone once said there's like 365 verses about fear, one for every day. You I don't know if that's true. But it is to say like there's something about rooting God's Word in your heart, that when you're feeling that fear, to have Scripture in your heart, to say like, yeah, I'm going to claim this because I know God's called me to this and I don't want fear to win the day. I've hidden the scripture in my heart to remind me in moments like this, ⁓ yeah, I'm not a fearful person. ⁓ do this. I can stand into this. This is what God is calling me to do. So those are really good things for sixes that I would say have been really helpful. ⁓ also find sixes really love singing. In my research, I found that sixes love worship music. Not to say if you're six and you don't, whatever, ⁓ they're But I think what's happening is there's a kind of safety ⁓ and hearing other voices of like, okay, I'm not crazy to believe this stuff. So like being in a worshiping body or listening to worship music, that can be like a really great practice because it just reminds you you're not alone.
Tyler Zach (AJ): to have ⁓ singing ⁓ to sort of drown out the inner committee and the doubt and the. ⁓ You're singing very much like singing your confidence in the Lord and ⁓ to have that drown out some that, that fear and all that, constant questioning could probably be one of the why it's so singing so powerful. ⁓ That's ⁓ good.
AJ Sherrill: Yeah, absolutely. All right, we'll wrap it with the seven. we love them. Their vices gluttony, which you can imagine. Maybe there's some practices that would be helpful. Their virtue sobriety, their fixation ⁓ is anticipation. Adventure can of get in the way of actually being present in the moment. Everything becomes future orientation, planning the next thing, right? ⁓ So your is obvious, it's feasting. But here's what I would say. Like if you're gonna show up to the party, if you're gonna show up, at the thing, ⁓ know, gluttony can take a lot of different forms. It can be needing to feel important at a thing, or it can be drinking too much wine or eating too much or too little. Like there's this like, this thing that you have to know about yourself of where am I prone to gluttony? can be binge watching, whatever, whatever. So like analyzing yourself, like, wow, where am I prone to sort of alleviating my pain by excessively participating in this thing that's sort of used as a strategy to avoid what's hard. And when you do that, it's good to have a plan before you get there. Like, for example, if you struggle with wine, have a plan before you show up to the party that I'm only going to have one glass tonight, or I'm not going to have any, I don't need that tab at the time. Having a kind of plan before you get somewhere to say this is the ceiling, this is this is as far as I'm going to go tonight, because I don't want to over rely on excess in order to to numb out or to Avoid that which I don't want to focus or or or notice so know feasting is good, but just make sure you're aware of your boundaries when you do that ⁓ The upstream for you is going to be solitude and silence. ⁓ I recommend you do that every day for a particular period of time ⁓ You know ⁓ tend to Want to avoid pain And so silence and solitude are one of those practices where like, why would I do that? Then I'm going to have to think about and actually like reflect on the thing that I don't want to be thinking about and reflecting on. So it's really good for sevens to say, solitude and silence, like God's going to meet me in that place and counsel me through those things rather than avoiding them. And I would encourage sevens to find a time period, 10, 20, 30 minutes a day where it's uninterrupted. There's no phone. It's just you. You can walk. And it's just like time for you to reflect and read or be around things that are going to help you process what your past and your present. And so those are are practices that are pretty obvious for sevens, but things that are ⁓ good. And again, like all of these, like, ⁓ know, there's a whole panoply of practices, whether it's the Spiritual Disciplines Handbook by Kao Kuen, ⁓ it's Celebration in Discipline by Foster. We have so many different resources in terms of spiritual practice. And it's finding out what's my fixation, where am I stuck? And then like, what do I imagine would be transformative for me if the presence of God were to actually like be there while that was happening, right? And it's having a plan for your life. And I think most ⁓ life is just like, have a plan, right? Show up. Like 90 % of spirituality is like showing up, like you said about the gym. And it's amazing what happens, but the lives we're living right now by default, we're not showing up. We're reacting. We're rushing from one thing to the next. We're not actually living our lives. We have agendas that are living our lives for us. And we need to take stock and to step back and to say, who is it that I want to be? Because no one ever became like Jesus by accident. And so if you are not intentional, you will not become like Jesus accidentally. and it's taking that sort of agency for your formation and being able to have a plan for what it is God wants to do in and through you in your life.
