Tyler Zach: If this episode encouraged you, be sure to follow the show, leave a five-star rating, and write a review. It really helps more people discover this podcast. Now, before you go, take a moment to reflect on this question. How do you relate to God? And what from today's conversation might invite you to see God differently? Remember the words of A.W. Tozer, what comes into our minds when we think about God? Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zock, and in each episode, I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between. Now, the Typish summits I host include speakers and attendees from all kinds of faith traditions and backgrounds. But because I started my Enneagram journey as a pastor, wrote a 40-day devotional for every Enneagram type, I have large Christian audience, and the topic of spiritual growth is the number one request I get. So, I decided to open up the vault and share six conversations from my Gospel for Enneagram summits back in 2023 as a special six-week podcast series. is the most important thing about us. which we're right in middle of right now. And if you'd like the bullet point notes for all six episodes, you can grab them right now by clicking the link in the show notes and downloading the PDF as a free gift. Today, my guest is Lindsey Lewis, who brings extensive theological training, years of experience as an international missionary, and multiple Enneagram coaching certifications. She also co-hosted the popular podcast, The EnneaCast, with Jesse Eubanks. So after this episode, be sure to head over there and binge some of their fantastic seasons. Lindsey currently serves as the Director of Relational Formation for Relate Better. So if you're looking for someone to lead an Enneagram workshop for your company, church, or nonprofit, Lindsey and Jesse are a great You can learn more at RelateBetter.com. ⁓ today's conversation, Lindsey and I explore how each enneagram type relates to God. And listen, Lindsey is such a wise teacher and contagious communicator. I think you're really gonna love this conversation just as much as I did. So, without further ado, let's jump in and go around the circle.
Lindsey Lewis: So, ⁓ so we are going to go through the types, you one through nine, but I encourage people to listen, you for all nine ways that we can kind of trip over ourselves when we're relating to God. And then ⁓ all nine ways that God is true and beautiful and loving, apply to us, ⁓ not just the way he your type. So now you want to start with type one? ⁓ Sure. All right, so with type one, you we call them the reformers or some people know them better as the perfectionists. They're really emphasizing in their life and in their spiritual life obedience. ⁓ know, like if we would just all do the right thing that we would get somewhere, you know, if you would just stop sinning, you know, that that would really ⁓ your spiritual life better. ⁓ that is true. But when we ⁓ on obedience as the only way to relate to God, the only way to live out our spiritual life, we get what we call a slanted rule of life, you know, and that's when we're going to start tripping over ourselves. So I want to talk about just what is their relationship with God ⁓ like when they have this kind of a love for obedience and when it's healthy, these people are working for higher purpose, like their whole life. no matter what they do, whether they're lawyers, accountants, but if they're walking with the Lord and they're looking at obedience, it's like everything they do has integrity. They care about things being ethical and right and fair. They're working hard to just make their little corner of the universe more like Eden than not. And it's really beautiful. But they're also ⁓ looking to God as their strength that obedience. And they know their limits. They their need for rest. And they tap into their own desires like that little bit of seven, you know, that they can relax, they can have fun. They don't get so hyper focused ⁓ on, you every second of my life must be accounted for, you know, in a ledger sort of situation. But then, you know, as we all do, there's levels of health to unhealth. When they hit a more unhealthy side, that is that critical voice. it might be coming out even of like, should, I ought, like I should, I ought, like I have to do more for God. Like it becomes more self-motivated because like I must do more to please God. You know, that my life becomes this ⁓ race, even though it's you know, a spiritual rat race, you know, and that we're just, we're exhausted, we're fatigued, but we feel like we have to bring up our, ourselves up by the bootstraps again and again. And we forget, forget what we originally loved, which is God and his goodness. And we've, we've just kind of gotten our gaze really narrow. And then we're hard on other people because we're like, why aren't you doing what you should be doing? Why aren't you working? Why are you going on vacation? You know, why are you? you know, we get just really rigid and strict. And so, and can kind of bleed out into anger. You know, we know ones have that hidden anger, that's resentment, resentment that they can't rest because there's so much brokenness. There's so much to do and no one else is doing enough. So I have to do so much more. then, and just like, you know, you just get that like seething under the surface. instead of like working from joy or love or, you know, easy burdens, that kind of thing.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): So how does that transfer then to, you know, what ones to be thinking about in terms of relating to God?
Lindsey Lewis: Right. So what we want to do is we want to say, okay, what's shifted in our view of God? Like who are we seeing God as that's, know, help that's leading us astray, I guess you could say. So we say, you know, ⁓ way you act your relationship with God and your spirituality on earth ⁓ is to be a direct result of how you're viewing, you know, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, honestly. So let's start with the false view because we're already kind of down in that. unhealthy spot. Their false view of God is that he's just this judge. You know, he's your angry dad, who's like, ⁓ like, get it together. Like you could do better. Like, you know, I think it's Dan Allender or no, it's Kurt Thompson. He talks about like, he made like a 90 on a test and his dad's response was where are the other 10 points? You know, and it's like, got a good grade, but it wasn't enough, you know, and that's how one start to think of God is that he's just up there tapping his foot. You know, he's impatient. He's frustrated, you know, their own frustration. They, they put that onto God that he's frustrated with us and, ⁓ and angry, you know, that God is angry And you know what? I think that this is exactly where the Pharisees were ⁓ our New Testament context is that, I mean, some of them were evil and all that, but I really think most of them started with this. They were these eager beaver young guys who were like, they were taken in by a rabbi and they're like, yes, teach me the laws, like teach me the way, like I want to run after God. But then they got so narrow minded that when God was standing in front of them, felt really unsafe. Like, cause it was so ⁓ ⁓ unlaw, you know, it was just freedom and pleasure ⁓ love. And that's like, you know, they had lost their way a little bit. So I see that when I look at the Pharisees that I have compassion for them. Like I have compassion for ⁓ ones like, they're just living under this false view of what God really wants from them. like the whole idea, like in James, he was like, faith without works is dead. And all the ones are like, amen. Like, we got that, we could do that. That the faith and the grace and the mercy is a little bit harder to grasp, you know, harder to get your hands around it. So I think the true view of God that can speak especially to ones is that God is perfect. You know, that he is complete, he is whole, and also that he is writing a story that has a perfect ending, like a perfect completed work, you know, that we already know that there's that already not yet that we have in Christ. And because we have ⁓ in Christ, ⁓ can rest because, know, the Psalms and other places talk about, he knows our weaknesses. He knows how frail we are. I mean, he made us to need eight hours of sleep, you know, every single day. He knows exactly how we're wired and his expectations are more than that. know, it's Jesus said, come to me. My burden is easy. You know, like I'm, I'm actually trying to give you something that's lighter than what you already carry. And I think for ones to go in that journey of just asking God, what does that mean? you what does that look like for me to have an easy burden? And it's gonna be a journey, right? That's not something you can decide today. I'm gonna have an easy burden. I can testify that I'm still up.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Amen. let's keep keep moving.
Lindsey Lewis: Okay, so twos, they have an emphasis on service. You know, they love meeting people's needs. They love being, you know, I don't want to say valuable because we use that word for threes, but it is the idea of like, I know that I'm bringing value because I'm serving, I'm filling a gap, that sort of ⁓ helper mentality. in their relationship with God, when they're healthy, they're a life of service and sacrificial love while also acknowledging their own neediness boundaries. ⁓ they're able to give, give, give, but from a place ⁓ fulfillment ⁓ abundance that already lives within themselves. ⁓ like you said, you can be sacrificial and still take a nap. Like those are not mutually exclusive. You know, you can be living your life in service. You say you work at a homeless shelter or you're, you know, serving at your church ⁓ and That doesn't mean on Saturdays you can't take a nap or you can't go on a personal retreat or you can't learn how to paint or something that just fills your well up that then it's always this overflow so that you're serving out of joy and not some sort of need to be needed or resentment And so ⁓ what we is similar to what, you know, we're talking about here is when they're going to that unhealthy place, you know, they're still they're still serving, but they're trying to earn favor with God and with other people. They're trying to they're coming from a lack, you know, like I don't feel loved. So maybe if I do more than I'll feel loved by God and also my community, you know, that people will love me. They'll honor me. They'll think of me, you know, because what if what if I leave and no one ever thinks of me? Then I'll be so lonely. But instead of that fullness pouring out, they're ahead of themselves and they're going to run out of steam. That's going to lead to all that resentment and anger. I know several twos who before they've done their work, they have physical ailments because they've gone too far. push themselves too far in service of others because they just really wanted that love. really were looking for love. And I don't like to like be the devil around every corner person, but I was just at a, like a spiritual retreat this weekend and they just did this beautiful image of like, you know, ⁓ if we're this kind of woven like, like a tapestry or a rug, you know, that is beautiful and intricate. but like Satan is like literally he's just like pulling all the threads he can. He just saying like, is this one loose? Is this one loose? And I just see him doing that with the twos of just. He's just trying to pull them apart, you know, and they don't see how beautifully and intricately they're woven together. know, if they can't do all that serving, serving, serving, he's like, you're not really loved, you know, you're not really worth anything. And it does start to unravel, you know, the edges. Their false view is that is kind of that taskmaster, taskmaster that he has all these things for them to do that he has been the one to sign them up for VBS pastor's wives and you know, and like he wants them to all those things. And so he's running them ragged. So in the same way as the ones we want to say, actually, he's a God of easy burdens. it is not his desire to, for you to burn out. ⁓ that isn't the way. So if you are burning out those somewhere in there are things that God doesn't need you to do is my guess, ⁓ know? So they don't see, they don't see a God of ⁓ unconditional They see a God of conditional love. Like, When you help enough, when you do enough, when you give enough, I love you. But if you pulled back, I might not love you and I might forget you altogether. the true of God is that, like we said, He has unconditional ⁓ love the for all of us, but also that He has given us the Holy Spirit as the perfect helper. And therefore the twos can work alongside the Holy Spirit. But just like you mentioned, they don't have to be the Holy Spirit. Like God has given us a helper that is all sufficient, know, and all benevolent and that the twos can just listen to the Holy Spirit of like, okay, Holy Spirit, where am I working with you? And then what are the things that I'm leaving up to you? You know, because I don't have capacity for that. And so for them to just remember that, you know, that God's got it. Like he's got that perfect Holy Spirit and he loves you and he has a place for you though. Like he's not gonna forget you. It's not gonna be like you stop trying and then he's like, well, I don't actually need your help. No. He put you on this earth with your gifts. You're still gonna be a helper at the end of the day.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Hey man, that's so good. That's so good, Lindsey. Okay, I went to the best number.
Lindsey Lewis: are our achievers. They are gonna emphasize producing and success. ⁓ We go to Tyler's website and see all that he's producing. You're like the king of I think, in a good, healthy way, of course.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like I don't like I feel like I'm being unproductive. But like the ones probably feel like they're not they're flawed and not perfect, but they're like the most perfect, you know. So it just it's funny how that works.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, that's like your litmus test for is this your core number that doing a lot of you feel like you're not doing at all. ⁓ good. All right. So when they're in a healthy, their relationship with God, I mean, honestly, Tyler, I'm not joking. Like I do see a lot of these things in you just, and Jesse like Jesse's, you know, come out as three ⁓ and just hardworking ⁓ vision casting.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): So
Lindsey Lewis: Like they are using any kind of glory that they could conjure up and they're putting it on Christ. Like they're saying, I'm gonna use all this energy I have I'm gonna use it all. And any glory that comes my way, I'm just quickly deflecting it to Christ. you know, so some of it was fine on them, but. ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): That's good. I say threes known for photobombing Jesus. ⁓ hey, this ⁓ is doing this, but you know, we ⁓ some So yeah.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh, I need to write that down and use it. That's really good. Okay, so yes, they are also drawing people to God because Therese can have this magnetism, know, like people are just drawn to them. They're good with words. so they're, when they're doing that well in relationship with God, they are using all those giftings to help people. know who God is and that God loves them and is there for them and wants relationship with them. When it's unhealthy, honestly, yeah, one, and three is that watercolor picture you were talking about. Yeah, it's like those shades, they kind of like feed back into each other. I see a lot of the similar themes with one and two coming out in three, that when they're unhealthy, they're like, I gotta do more. Like I gotta produce more. and I gotta be shinier, you know, and I need to be better for Jesus, you know, like I'm doing it for Jesus, but I need to be like, I need to the right glasses and the right clothes, and I need to do a lot of things and I need to be in front of a lot of people, or I'm not doing enough for the kingdom, you know, and then, you know, heaven forbid if I do something really bad, you know, especially publicly, then I've destroyed Jesus, you know, and like you said, like, actually know, like you're in the background, Jesus is in the foreground. And he like, I mean, we do, I mean, we do actually mar the name of Christ on earth, but we don't change who Jesus is like his glory and power is unchanging, no matter what the three, you know, is doing. So ⁓ yeah, they have really high expectations, you know, of themselves, but also of God, like I'm gonna do this for you. You're gonna build my platform. Like I've heard that a lot in Christian worlds of like God is building my platform, you know? And that's supposed to be a holy thing. Like I'm not building my own platform. God is building it. And it's like, maybe there's no platform. Maybe you just can stand on the ground like everybody else. So I think, yeah, they just get really busy they can lose focus on they were in it for in the beginning. That makes sense. let's talk about their, the view that they have of God before we move on to the four. So yeah, ⁓ looking at God as having these high expectations and that he has this expectation against laziness, ⁓ you know, it's like, like rest is rest isn't just rest. And so that God, you know, when they're resting that God's like, what are you doing? Like you're on the clock. Like you need to get busy. Like you've got a lot to do and you gotta get going with that. ⁓ The true view of God is that God is the glorious one, right? That he is going to fulfill his purposes, that he has accomplished the work. know, a lot of the same things that we've said for one and two apply also to three of just, it is finished, like it's completed. And that we are co-heirs and coworkers, but we are definitely the subordinate, right? That we're the one who is learning, we're in process. and that we are humans and we need rest. have limits, like, you know, psychological limits, like so many types of limits that we have and that God isn't affected by any of those. Like that he isn't scared or upset with us, but that he just delights in three. And the main thing for the three to know about God is that he kind of like you're saying with your wife, he sees behind. ⁓ any sort of mask that we've created. Like he really knows the internal life and he loves you because of it. Like not in spite of it, but like that's what he loves. Like that's what he cherishes is not the made up image, but that essence of who you are. I think when we really believe that, when we can kind of maybe just a mustard seed of belief in that. threes can start to do that work of looking for the essence, you know, cause some of us have lost touch with it altogether. And so we have to be able to say, ⁓ yeah, this isn't me. Like this is kind of what I do, but again, my identity isn't worship pastor. My identity isn't lead pastor or missionary or all of these things that kind of make us as Christians feel like, well, now I'm something. And God's like, no, like those are not the things that I love you for. And so for us to do that inner work of saying like, yeah, like who I am in Christ is much deeper than missionary Bible school, you know, or, know, whatever. so yeah, God has never fooled and he ⁓ is us into his image from one degree of glory to another. And I think the REEs can especially appreciate that. Like every single day. He is moving you from one degree of glory to another into his likeness. So you can rest easy. Like there's glory to be had and God is just freely giving it to you day by day.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): love that. I love that.
Lindsey Lewis: So for the four, we say when they're healthy, they are the Psalms, you know, like if you read the Psalms, there's highest highs, the lowest lows, there is ⁓ anger, ⁓ like, you know, smash out the teeth of the wicked. ⁓ And there is like, you know, weeping and of ⁓ and that there's also this remembrance to it of like, we're constantly going back and telling a story, you know, which is, it's, very artistic, you know, their songs, their works of art. And so when I think of the fours in a healthy relationship with God, that's like what I'm seeing is just like, they're riding all the waves, you know, they're not denying any experience that God has for them. And they, but they also know that all of the experiences are anchored in their creator who again made them wonderfully. And so they can ride the lows and know that this is not who I am. This is a low moment, you know, and I'm gonna cry out to the Lord in my low. And then I'm gonna go to the high and I'm gonna know like, unlike some of those threes, you know, like I'm the high, I am just experiencing a high and that I give glory to God for that. So I could say way more, but I think that really encompasses the healthy four, you know, this of emotion to go through life with Christ. So want to add anything to that?
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): No, I think that's how I know I'm a three. I wondered if I was a four, but the Psalms were always my least favorite book of the Bible because it too, too, much, ⁓ much feelings. So I had to skip that in the Bible reading plan. ⁓ And then I hit a low and then I only did Psalms, read Psalms for a whole year ⁓ you know, after going through marriage struggles and, know.
Lindsey Lewis: Hahaha!
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): ⁓ And David is a good example. I think of pouring your heart out and being and authentic and then coming back and saying, but I will trust in you, you know, and moving forward ⁓ and not letting, letting himself get disillusioned to the point where he can't do anything and step back into the world. And you know, he gets stuff done. He moved the ball forward and ⁓ I think a great picture of a healthy form.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, it's like he was still the king.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): It's a key.
Lindsey Lewis: in battle and stuff, but he also resumes. So I think ⁓ they're unhealthy, ⁓ do attach much to some of their emotions, to the lows and to the highs at the expense of maybe other spiritual disciplines that would bring equanimity into their life. So they're like ⁓ over-identifying melancholy. And might be because they have sevens in their life. who are refusing to look at the dark side. And so they're like, I will stake my claim on the dark side. Like it deserves a voice, you know, and, it could be the other way around where they're, you know, singing of joy. I don't really see force doing that as much, but, but you know, they, ⁓ just identify with their emotions ⁓ and then skews ⁓ their with God because ⁓ All that tumult is, you know, I'm near to God, I'm far from God. I'm near to God, I'm far from God. Instead of it being like life is rocky, but God is the same. And so, and I think a lot of us do that. It's not just force, but we think when I feel God's presence, I'm close to God. And when I don't feel his presence or I don't understand the suffering I'm experiencing or I'm witnessing, so God is far. And it's really nothing about God isn't moving, like God isn't changing his position towards us ever. And so it's actually just our human way of understanding him. And we need to be able to say like, no, even when I don't feel it, God is near, as near as he was ⁓ you know, the birth of your baby or, know, these amazing moments that you have that you're like, praise God, you know, and it's the same, like God is the same. We're the ones changing, right? So that goes into the view of God they have this false view of God that they're saying, God, he actually made me little bit wrong. ⁓ Like he took his eye off the conveyor belt when I was through a few pieces, like ⁓ didn't get food in, you know? And so that creates a lot confusion then also with their relationship with of like, why did you make me this way? ⁓ Why am I not like X, Y, and Z at the staff meeting? Why are they, why do they have so much energy? Why do, because of course we're not seeing like, oh, that's their fatal flaw that they're displaying. They're just like, I don't have that. I don't have, or I don't have that pep, or I don't have just whatever it is. And they're looking to God saying, you made me, so why all the defects? Why am I like this? And then like you said, I mean, they can see God as withholding and distant because they pulled themselves away from the Lord or away from community. And then it starts when you're in a cave long enough, you don't remember who put who in the cave, you know, you're just, you're just there. And I think that's the false view, but fours maybe more than anyone can read that Psalm 139 and be like, that's not true. Like, God was so intentional when he made you. And if we didn't have fours in the world, we would have a huge lack. Like we would have a huge lack, like in creativity, in authenticity, people to sit, know, chevo with us in our grief, like people who call threes to that realness, know, people who are not enamored with all the shiny things necessarily. and that God made fours to be that anchor in the world and that that's exactly what he wants them to be, but that he also is near and that he also wants them to do that in community, that he has community for them and that there's nothing broken or wrong, you know, and that, but also that God, he is perfectly order and perfectly beauty. And so, Forests can live into that of, know, they can live an ordinary life with grocery shopping and laundry doing and meetings and wiping children's booties, know, whatever it is, ordinary that is kind of the order and structure of their life. And then they could also ⁓ always God for all his beauty. I mean, he literally created us to enjoy the fact that blue and green go together. and that the sky happens to be blue and the trees and the grass are green, like it could be black and white, but it's not, you know, and that fours, they're bringing that people's awareness of just the beauty of the glory of God and his creation. And ⁓ you know, kind like your hand thing. Like that's a way for me, I have a lot of four also. I actually thought I was a four when I first learned the enneagram and but the world is always right there. know, like even in the winter, like there are birds and there are flowers and ⁓ frozen waterfalls and you know, like that. It's always right there to realize that the beauty is there, you know. ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right, fives.
Lindsey Lewis: Okay, these are our investigators. They really like to emphasize knowledge and you know, they just love understanding how things work and the why and the how and you know, just going deeper and then deeper past deeper and you know, they love going down those rabbit trails of things. And so when they're healthy in their relationship with God, you know, they are using knowledge to fan the flame of love and service and right action to the Lord. You know, that they're saying like, wow, like God has made the universe intricately amazingly. And I want to study that for hours on end, but it's like always stirring up my heart in worship, you know, and that, and propelling me to right action within the community of God or in relationship with God. And so, You know, they can go deep into theology or deep into astrophysics or whatever it is, but always that it's stirring their heart of like, God is so amazing, you know, that he is all knowing and that he created things. You know, what we're talking about, he doesn't get tired, you know, and I was thinking about how like all the planets are like spinning this way and they're, but then they're always going around the sun and then they have moons and like, you know, it's just like talk about spinning plates, you know, that we talk about. ⁓ you know, and, and vibes want to understand how all that works, you know, and not necessarily space, but that's just an example. So yeah, they're curious and they can be great at, ⁓ contemplative practices because it's not scary for them necessarily, you know, to down and just still and quiet and curious, ⁓ you for how God's going to show up. Like, and they don't have to always. ⁓ speak, you know, like they can be in a group of people and just listening, listening, listening, you know, and they can really discover some of those deeper truths that, you know, I'm very quick to speak sometimes, you know, and I get really excited. And then like this whole interview, you know, like talking a hours an hour and there's, can be so rooted, you know, and like really grounded. And I think that helps.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): listeners.
Lindsey Lewis: helps other believers that if we can experience through them, it actually brings us also closer in our relationship to God. But the downside is when it becomes just knowledge for knowledge sakes, it's longer stirring them towards God. It's just like their own rat race of more, more, have to have more, I have to have more. And it isolates them. from communion with God and community with others because they would rather be so focused into a book or onto the computer than, you know, the horizontal and the vertical relationships that God has really created them for. And so just like the one with the doing, doing, it's like, when that came from an overflow, it's beautiful. And so when you're digging deeper, deeper, deeper, that can be beautiful until It's no longer an overflow of your love for God and his knowledge and just like a desire for more. And then also judging others when they don't have that, know, thinking like, well, you're not as good of a Christian or I have to listen to you because I know so many things. And so now I'm kind of becoming complacent in other spiritual avenues of my life because I'm so focused on The thing of value is knowledge.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): I love fives and the knowledge that they bring ⁓ the depth ⁓ we can just, especially ⁓ you go into the Bible or studying the Bible and fives help you to understand just the who God is. And there's these amazing books that we can point to, you knowledge of the holy and all these that like, wow, just grasping more of God is so worshipful. Yeah.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, I think of like the Bible project, you know what they're doing. They've got a lot of five energy over there and you listen to their stuff and you're just like, We're like, how amazing is your like outcome? think that's like that healthy thing we're looking for. And then you go to like seminary campus and people are like in their books and their families are floundering and it's like, that's not it, you know? And not all seminarians are like that. I was a seminary once, so, but that can be the lure of knowledge, you know? I think that that comes out with their views of God, that they view God as either ⁓ and withholding and not relational, or they're gonna figure him out ⁓ facts, ⁓ with a personal relationship, or they might see God ⁓ ⁓ overbearing, he so much of me, he doesn't know how low energy I am, he doesn't... know my limits and so I'm just gonna kind of like put up a boundary between me and God because I can't go out and like meet all those people's needs. Like I can't, you know, they can feel really overwhelmed with life and with what might be expected of them that they don't feel like they have the capacity to do, you know, but the true view of God is that he is all knowing. And he is as wonderful and spectacular as we could ever think he was, you know, like that he did create Pythagoras' theorem or whatever, you know, he can do all the math, he can do all the science. He created the galaxies and the orbits and gravity and all the things that I personally am not interested in. But people are, and that ⁓ great with that. You know, he is the creator of that. And he delights in our delight, like when we're delighting in his creation, when we're delighting in just the little nuggets of wisdom that we can have here on earth, that he actually delights in that. And that the same is true for vibes as these other numbers that we've said in that you're wonderfully made and that God knows your limits. ⁓ so he, it might feel like he's stretching your capacities ⁓ you know, or socially. And, that, ⁓ He knows your limits. He knows that you're dust and he knows exactly the way that you tick and that he wants to work with who you are to bring delight, to help your desires come into fruition, but in relationship with him. Like always flowing from that of ⁓ and relationship that we're getting with God.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): it. Love it.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): let's, are you ready to move on to type six? ⁓
Lindsey Lewis: Yes. ⁓ So the six is loyalist they really emphasize ⁓ faithfulness. know, Jesse always says, ⁓ cohost, these are the covenant you know, like they want to make a promise and they want to keep a promise and they want you to make a promise and they want you to keep your promise as well. ⁓ That's great ⁓ when healthy because God a covenant
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Love it. Yes.
Lindsey Lewis: You know, he says he is the one who fulfills the covenant. Like when we can't, that he, he's like, okay, I keep remaking these old Testament covenants with them. I'm just going to just take care of their sin for them. You know, like I'm just going to do the whole shebang you yeah, it's beautiful and it's wonderful. so ⁓ sixes in to God, they are, they are all in with a trustworthy leader. So when they have trust and communion with God, they're like, put me in. Like they can do things like a two, like they can serve, they can give, you know, they're interested in things like the one, they wanna be good, they wanna do the right thing, they wanna be for God's people. So in the church setting, for instance, they wanna be for that church. Like they're gonna stick it out, like through the messy stuff, you know, because they're really safe. within who God made them to be and who God is, that God is a safe and true God, right? But the unhealthy stuff comes out whenever they move from abounding in faith to abounding in doubt, you know, that they don't understand maybe why things have played out, which we all go through this, right? Where all of a sudden, maybe God's not exactly who we thought he was. based on our circumstances. And so they begin to either pull back or lash out. And so that could be, you know, within the church or just in their relationship with God, like forget it. Like I'm not, I'm not going to do this anymore. Like I'm not going to go to church with these untrustworthy people who keep hurting me and hurting other people. Or I'm not gonna, I'm not even going to try to meet with God because it's not going to show up. Like I don't trust that he is keeping covenant with me anymore. And I think we all struggle with, especially with our current culture with like mega churches and, you know, big church famous church leaders ⁓ and Christian like Christian I've heard a lot of people say about people that I think it can be hard for all of us. ⁓ And, know, especially six is if we're broken by a leader, you know, that we thought was faithful, that has been good. That taught us ⁓ so many things about the gospel, true things, good things about the Lord and enriched our life. And then they do something really awful, you know, or they turn out to be kind of this raging narcissist or something. We doubt God in a way that we would doubt them, you know, that it's like they turned the tables on us and it's like, ⁓ okay, well, I thought you were God's like spokesman to me. ⁓ now I'm not sure about my relationship with God. even though we, so hard to say. That person taught me the gospel and that's a beautiful thing. And I also completely reject what they're up to right now. You know, like that's really tricky in the Christian world. So yeah, as far as their views of God, they can have that same pendulum. They either see God as kind of this authoritarian, untrustworthy figure, or they're kind of all in with God as the loving, kind, good leader. He is the loyal God. He is the covenant keeper. He made the covenant. He fulfilled the covenant. and we can trust that he is always working out his plan into completion. Like he's not gonna leave a sheep behind, you know? And I think that we can take so much comfort who Jesus was when he was on earth, because he did not leave people behind. He wasn't too busy. He wasn't full of himself. He, you know, I think of the woman who had, you know, been sick for 12 years and he's on the way to like keep a little girl from dying. Like it's a big deal. You know, and that when the woman touches him, he could have just kept going and knowing in his heart like, she's healed. Like that's cool. You know, but he didn't like he stops, know, and he's going to let the little girl die because he knows, you know, he can raise her back and to like meet this ⁓ you know, who had been unclean and completely outcast for 12 years, you know, because of her illness and ⁓ You know that I think sixes can take a lot of, we can all take comfort in seeing that of Jesus. Like he would try to go away alone and then there'd be all these people there. And it says, you know, he just had compassion on them. Like he really does go after the one sheep. You know? so, yeah, I love that picture for sixes especially to meditate on if they're feeling distrustful of like, like Jesus was. gentle and lowly, you know, he was king of the universe.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right.
Lindsey Lewis: night seven. So yeah, the enthusiasts, they're going to really emphasize joy, like celebrating. ⁓ really need that. You know, we have a lot ⁓ do celebrate. And so, ⁓ know, in their relationship with God, you they have that faith like a child, like they they hear the gospel and they're like, let's tell everybody. In fact, let's throw a party. Let's throw a block party. Like, let's like, let's shout for joy. ⁓ you know, screaming in the streets. just love that they have so much, yeah, that childlike-ness to them. ⁓ since they're in the head triad, a lot of times that comes out in this deep curiosity. You know, they want to know ⁓ more about, you know, not like a five, you know, it's not as serious, more of a playful knowing, but they're so interested, you know. there's so many interesting things to know and to do and experiences to live. I think sevens really bring a lot of that to the table. They help us not get so stuck in like theology ⁓ or, you know, church politics ⁓ or all the suffering and brokenness of the world, which is really present. But they bring this like, but remember that's called good news. They love that, that aspect of it. The unhealthy side is they accidentally build all of their, you know, personal theology on only positive aspects of life and faith. And that's, ⁓ I mean, we could go through all the reasons why that's tricky, but one is people are You know, you have to be able to engage in suffering in a way to like meet with people. And then number two is that you're gonna suffer. So if you hit midlife and things, know, some of those big things that can go wrong, go wrong, where is your faith? Like where is your personal relationship with God if all you've ever based it on is kind of like the joy of the Lord is my strength. And then you're like clinically depressed and what do you do? You know, and so that can be dangerous. You know, if they're avoiding lament, you know, they're avoiding, of us can avoid any ⁓ of our ⁓ with Like we need the joy, we need to be able to live in ordinary time and we need to be able to ⁓ lament, ⁓ Because we over-focus on ⁓ one, missing out on the complete picture of who God is and how he's organized life to ⁓ You know, if that's on that.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): No, so how does that affect their view of God? Do they view God then as sort of the easygoing parent that just lets them do whatever they want and have as much fun as they want?
Lindsey Lewis: I think we would tend to say that they kind of have these two sides. Like one is that think that God is, yeah, he's like fun. He's almost like Santa Claus, you know, that he's here for the party. And though, like maybe that God kind of needs them to jazz him up a little bit. Like they're going to give Jesus a glow up, you know, that he could be a little stodgy and boring. So, you know, we're going to ⁓ liven up a little bit. But then I think also in life is hard that they can see God as a little bit like stingy and like he's withholding. Why would he withhold giving me every good thing today? know, wants fulfill my desires. Well, why isn't he fulfilling them today? And I think we see that in a lot of our hearts, not just sevens of like the scripture says this, but my experience of it, there's a gap ⁓ that is mystery that we don't understand sometimes ever. sometimes for just five more years, we might work it out. So I think sevens can kind of see God as like, yeah, like withholding and you know, that he's a little distant. So they have to conjure up feeling and fun and liveliness because if they stopped moving, they're afraid, yeah, the stillness, the emptiness would be deafening.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): they just need remember. ⁓ that ⁓ they can find greater joy by staying put and being faithful wherever they're at. that they can experience greater joy if they go through the pain rather than around it. ⁓ Just like Jesus said on the cross that he endured for joy. He went to the cross for the joy set before him. There's greater joy.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): should we move along to the eights then?
Lindsey Lewis: Let's do it. So the eights, We really emphasize victory, you know, and when I, when I say that word, I was trying to unpack a little bit to myself, like, like, what is that? You know, like, what is that? I have very low eight also. So I'm like, kind of struck me that victory is what happens when you're successful with control and power, you know, which we know the eights love control and power. So ⁓ you manage that well, like when you manage your armies, well, you, you have a victory. You know, and so, you know, that's what they're kind of like controlling outcomes a little bit. And they want, they want everything to be victorious in the end. Like they don't want to be controlled in the process.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Christus Victor is kind of a doctrine for for eights to to see victorious Christ ⁓ through his triumph over Satan, sin and death and how resonates with eights.
Lindsey Lewis: like the horse and the sword and like the whole thing. Yes, I love it. So when I picture a healthy eight and their relationship with God, ⁓ like one word just like is a banner in my mind and it's just zeal. You know, like they are these people who are just like zealous for the Lord. They have so much energy. They really care about the things that God cares about, know, like justice, like bringing up the
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Revelation Jesus.
Lindsey Lewis: and the needy, like they believe in the power of Christ. Like they're all about, you know, like, let's bring in some healing. Let's really believe these promises that God has said, you know, let's be strong in our faith. Like, just see them being these, I mean, they really are these leaders who are calling up, you know, they're like up wounds and like, stand up, like, come on, like, keep going. Like, they're these really zealous. ⁓ leaders. know, again, I picture David because, you know, fours and eights can have a lot in common. So we've got Psalmist David, which is like the four, but then like King David, I really see that eights in there, you know, that he is, just always like zealous for the Lord. He's doing whatever the Lord asks him to do. He's going into like crazy battles to fight for the Lord and then coming back and like dancing and like all this, you know, living the full glory of ⁓ God's And that's what I see like a really healthy eight their relationship with God. And I think, you ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Their character for aid is Deborah in the Old Testament and how she challenged, Barak ⁓ he wasn't listening to the Lord and taking the army to go fight the bad guys. And so I, and I, especially since she's a female, I love using that as a strong, strong female. ⁓
Lindsey Lewis: I wish we had more of Yeah, that's really good. I'm thinking of like all these Bible stories. yes, I think a key piece that we have to mention for their relationship with God is that even when they're zealous, even when they're leading ⁓ a healthy way, that has to have an anchor in understanding their own need for like forgiveness and mercy. Because I think we see the pendulum swing to this unhealthy side when it becomes, know, kind of knowledge for knowledge sake with a five, it's like power for power sake, know, victory for my own glory. because like we said before, Jesus was gentle and lowly, even though he was powerful. You know, he, ⁓ did make whip and like drive people from the temple. because that was his father's house. And because those people in the temple were taking advantage of God's other people, you know, the poor, the needy, the devout who couldn't even make a sacrifice because of these money changers and whatever. And I think eights have that, you know, that that's their healthy zeal. But then when we just start whipping people, cause they disagree with us, that isn't Jesus, you know, it wasn't a multi-purpose whip like, that he then carried the rest of his journey, you know? And I think that's that unhealthy side that eights can fall into is that, and also they have so much energy and like life that they can justify leaving people behind because it's like, if you can keep up my pace, I'm happy for you to run with me. If you fall behind, that's your own fault. And like the twos and the fours and like the six, like people who are very tenderhearted are like, I just am not. made that way. You know, I told you about my sister is an eight and she's like that. Like she's like, why aren't you keeping up? And I'm like, I just, I just have a different stride than you, you know, don't have as much energy as she does. And I never will like ever. ⁓ so I think for eights to be able to slow down again and say like, wait a minute, like what are God's priorities? Like what does he care about? more than power, know, people. if we're just ⁓ people behind, we need to reevaluate like what's driving us, you because it's no longer the Holy Spirit more than likely. So yeah, I think that they have, that's kind of that pendulum for them is like this amazing zeal for the Lord and using ⁓ all that given energy for that. But then getting going so fast that then they forgot that they supposed to be running with Jesus, you know, and being like Jesus in their running, I guess you could say. that they either think like, even God's too slow, like, so it's like, okay, get your way now, I'm gonna just like run with it and like into action. But I think the true view of God is that, you know, God is all powerful and that he also was zealous. Like we already gave the example of Jesus and casting out the people from the temple, that he has this righteous anger that he is not afraid of and that, you know, ⁓ can be part of the eighth story. But I think he also is calling them to their softer side, like that he is saying, you know, that wounded child inside of you, you know, that had to grow up, that had to like put on this armor. Like, I actually am safe for that person. the invitation to Jesus is to ⁓ still yourself and not to be afraid of what happen in the stillness. ⁓ Not to be afraid of what happened when you the initiator of action. And that maybe God has something extra special for you there. That in that discipline, in spiritual place, ⁓ that God will cultivate ⁓ newness of life within you that will then empower you for whatever your next is, know, your next big initiative is. ⁓ that, that we all need, you know, I think that's why eights go to five and why threes go to nine, you know, and it's because we ⁓ need time where we're pulling back, we're slowing down, and then we're refocusing our attention on what is this all for? Who is worth and being more like him.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right. Anything more about the eight or are you ready for the nine?
Lindsey Lewis: I'm ready to do the nines. the nines are peacemakers. What they emphasize is shockingly peace. ⁓ I think the thing that nines are longing for and that they kind of embody is this kind of a garden mentality. Like they are looking for the peace of the garden. And beautiful thing is that Jesus says he is the Prince of peace. ⁓ You he is like because of him, we have peace with God. and that we know in the end there is gonna be a new heaven and a new earth, that he is making all things new. And I think that's ⁓ are embodying ⁓ all of this peacefulness that they want, and also like the reconciliation that God brings. ⁓ nines exhibit that. They have such a love for all sides to be seen and all sides to be heard ⁓ the cost of themselves, of not. seeing themselves. So I think when they're healthy, they're awake to that. They're awake to the presence of God, of Christ, and longing for that already not yet tension to be fulfilled, you know, and that they're fueled by Jesus's life and ⁓ lifestyle and that motivates them to right action. So they're able to take steps in their own life to serve God in their own capacities in a way that's beautiful, that it is bringing reconciliation and peace within the community of God. The bad news is that nine's kind of have this tendency to fall asleep, even to themselves. So they're sleepwalking in their life. And so they're not taking that right action.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): need more zeal. They need some of eight zeal. That's a command to actually be zealous.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, they need to like get that tattooed on their arms. Yeah. And then they can fall into like narcotizing, you know, the idea of like a fake piece, know, a fake, a piece that I get when I watch a show or if I eat some candy or I play a video game where I'm like numbing myself so that I don't feel how hard this life is. I don't feel the brokenness and the tension that exists. But there's an invitation in the brokenness, right? That our oneness with Christ often, like we said for the three, comes from acknowledging I'm broken, like I can't do this anymore. And that's something that the nines may be resisting in an unhealthy way in their relationship with God. And they can not show up because they just don't even think that they matter. they've lost their own voice they really trust that somebody else will say what needs to be said. know, especially they're surrounded by ace and ones, you know, on each side. So they're like, ⁓ let the eight and the ones speak. Cause they've got lots of things to say, you know, they've got rules and they've got agendas and they've a of things going on. So who needs my voice ⁓ the Like I'll just kind of lay low. I won't cause trouble maybe, you know, but ⁓ you know, God doesn't really need me in his plan, I think is the unhealthy side. think that they can like a five believe that God is going to have more demands than what they can give. that, and nines are very stubborn, you know? So then they kind of shut down and they're kind of got their heels dug in cause it's like, that's too much. Like I can't do all that, you know? And so I'm going to just, you know, stick to this really, I'm going to stick to this like really easy path because I don't trust myself and I don't trust you to equip me to do maybe this harder task that I see. But the true view is that they are such a beautiful picture of Christ, like the true like that compassion that we talked about that Jesus came and he called all these disciples that were all like incredibly different, you know, and that he ⁓ that he was able to hold all that, that he is this wholeness and fullness that nines aren't perfect like Jesus, but they do hold so many things together in a similar way that the person of Jesus on earth was able to also do, you know, and that their for peace ⁓ comes like we said, that Jesus is the peacemaker, that he's the reconciler, like, and that Those things are beautiful, but they can also trust that God is the God who can calm the storm. You know, like that kind of piece, like your life feels like the storm, but believing that God is bigger than the storm. Like he's bigger than the He's bigger than the to-do lists. I mean, like you get a nine who's got a job and a family and kids. If you add in any sort of like health issue, mental issue, like financial issue, it's just like, Like that's a storm, right? That we all experience and Jesus, know, all it takes is a word for Jesus to say, peace be still, you and that the nines can rest in that, that that can be their peace, ⁓ that a deeper peace than I feel at ease right now. It's a deep peace knowing I am with the one who calms the storm. Well, I can weather the storm.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Mm-hmm.
Lindsey Lewis: knowing that I know the author of the calm.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): thank you so much for joining me and Lindsey to learn the Enneagram through a gospel lens so you can transform your life and your relationships go in peace
Lindsey Lewis: So, ⁓ so we are going to go through the types, you one through nine, but I encourage people to listen, you for all nine ways that we can kind of trip over ourselves when we're relating to God. And then ⁓ all nine ways that God is true and beautiful and loving, apply to us, ⁓ not just the way he your type. So now you want to start with type one? ⁓ Sure. All right, so with type one, you we call them the reformers or some people know them better as the perfectionists. They're really emphasizing in their life and in their spiritual life obedience. ⁓ know, like if we would just all do the right thing that we would get somewhere, you know, if you would just stop sinning, you know, that that would really ⁓ your spiritual life better. ⁓ that is true. But when we ⁓ on obedience as the only way to relate to God, the only way to live out our spiritual life, we get what we call a slanted rule of life, you know, and that's when we're going to start tripping over ourselves. So I want to talk about just what is their relationship with God ⁓ like when they have this kind of a love for obedience and when it's healthy, these people are working for higher purpose, like their whole life. no matter what they do, whether they're lawyers, accountants, but if they're walking with the Lord and they're looking at obedience, it's like everything they do has integrity. They care about things being ethical and right and fair. They're working hard to just make their little corner of the universe more like Eden than not. And it's really beautiful. But they're also ⁓ looking to God as their strength that obedience. And they know their limits. They their need for rest. And they tap into their own desires like that little bit of seven, you know, that they can relax, they can have fun. They don't get so hyper focused ⁓ on, you every second of my life must be accounted for, you know, in a ledger sort of situation. But then, you know, as we all do, there's levels of health to unhealth. When they hit a more unhealthy side, that is that critical voice. it might be coming out even of like, should, I ought, like I should, I ought, like I have to do more for God. Like it becomes more self-motivated because like I must do more to please God. You know, that my life becomes this ⁓ race, even though it's you know, a spiritual rat race, you know, and that we're just, we're exhausted, we're fatigued, but we feel like we have to bring up our, ourselves up by the bootstraps again and again. And we forget, forget what we originally loved, which is God and his goodness. And we've, we've just kind of gotten our gaze really narrow. And then we're hard on other people because we're like, why aren't you doing what you should be doing? Why aren't you working? Why are you going on vacation? You know, why are you? you know, we get just really rigid and strict. And so, and can kind of bleed out into anger. You know, we know ones have that hidden anger, that's resentment, resentment that they can't rest because there's so much brokenness. There's so much to do and no one else is doing enough. So I have to do so much more. then, and just like, you know, you just get that like seething under the surface. instead of like working from joy or love or, you know, easy burdens, that kind of thing.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): So how does that transfer then to, you know, what ones to be thinking about in terms of relating to God?
Lindsey Lewis: Right. So what we want to do is we want to say, okay, what's shifted in our view of God? Like who are we seeing God as that's, know, help that's leading us astray, I guess you could say. So we say, you know, ⁓ way you act your relationship with God and your spirituality on earth ⁓ is to be a direct result of how you're viewing, you know, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, honestly. So let's start with the false view because we're already kind of down in that. unhealthy spot. Their false view of God is that he's just this judge. You know, he's your angry dad, who's like, ⁓ like, get it together. Like you could do better. Like, you know, I think it's Dan Allender or no, it's Kurt Thompson. He talks about like, he made like a 90 on a test and his dad's response was where are the other 10 points? You know, and it's like, got a good grade, but it wasn't enough, you know, and that's how one start to think of God is that he's just up there tapping his foot. You know, he's impatient. He's frustrated, you know, their own frustration. They, they put that onto God that he's frustrated with us and, ⁓ and angry, you know, that God is angry And you know what? I think that this is exactly where the Pharisees were ⁓ our New Testament context is that, I mean, some of them were evil and all that, but I really think most of them started with this. They were these eager beaver young guys who were like, they were taken in by a rabbi and they're like, yes, teach me the laws, like teach me the way, like I want to run after God. But then they got so narrow minded that when God was standing in front of them, felt really unsafe. Like, cause it was so ⁓ ⁓ unlaw, you know, it was just freedom and pleasure ⁓ love. And that's like, you know, they had lost their way a little bit. So I see that when I look at the Pharisees that I have compassion for them. Like I have compassion for ⁓ ones like, they're just living under this false view of what God really wants from them. like the whole idea, like in James, he was like, faith without works is dead. And all the ones are like, amen. Like, we got that, we could do that. That the faith and the grace and the mercy is a little bit harder to grasp, you know, harder to get your hands around it. So I think the true view of God that can speak especially to ones is that God is perfect. You know, that he is complete, he is whole, and also that he is writing a story that has a perfect ending, like a perfect completed work, you know, that we already know that there's that already not yet that we have in Christ. And because we have ⁓ in Christ, ⁓ can rest because, know, the Psalms and other places talk about, he knows our weaknesses. He knows how frail we are. I mean, he made us to need eight hours of sleep, you know, every single day. He knows exactly how we're wired and his expectations are more than that. know, it's Jesus said, come to me. My burden is easy. You know, like I'm, I'm actually trying to give you something that's lighter than what you already carry. And I think for ones to go in that journey of just asking God, what does that mean? you what does that look like for me to have an easy burden? And it's gonna be a journey, right? That's not something you can decide today. I'm gonna have an easy burden. I can testify that I'm still up.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Amen. let's keep keep moving.
Lindsey Lewis: Okay, so twos, they have an emphasis on service. You know, they love meeting people's needs. They love being, you know, I don't want to say valuable because we use that word for threes, but it is the idea of like, I know that I'm bringing value because I'm serving, I'm filling a gap, that sort of ⁓ helper mentality. in their relationship with God, when they're healthy, they're a life of service and sacrificial love while also acknowledging their own neediness boundaries. ⁓ they're able to give, give, give, but from a place ⁓ fulfillment ⁓ abundance that already lives within themselves. ⁓ like you said, you can be sacrificial and still take a nap. Like those are not mutually exclusive. You know, you can be living your life in service. You say you work at a homeless shelter or you're, you know, serving at your church ⁓ and That doesn't mean on Saturdays you can't take a nap or you can't go on a personal retreat or you can't learn how to paint or something that just fills your well up that then it's always this overflow so that you're serving out of joy and not some sort of need to be needed or resentment And so ⁓ what we is similar to what, you know, we're talking about here is when they're going to that unhealthy place, you know, they're still they're still serving, but they're trying to earn favor with God and with other people. They're trying to they're coming from a lack, you know, like I don't feel loved. So maybe if I do more than I'll feel loved by God and also my community, you know, that people will love me. They'll honor me. They'll think of me, you know, because what if what if I leave and no one ever thinks of me? Then I'll be so lonely. But instead of that fullness pouring out, they're ahead of themselves and they're going to run out of steam. That's going to lead to all that resentment and anger. I know several twos who before they've done their work, they have physical ailments because they've gone too far. push themselves too far in service of others because they just really wanted that love. really were looking for love. And I don't like to like be the devil around every corner person, but I was just at a, like a spiritual retreat this weekend and they just did this beautiful image of like, you know, ⁓ if we're this kind of woven like, like a tapestry or a rug, you know, that is beautiful and intricate. but like Satan is like literally he's just like pulling all the threads he can. He just saying like, is this one loose? Is this one loose? And I just see him doing that with the twos of just. He's just trying to pull them apart, you know, and they don't see how beautifully and intricately they're woven together. know, if they can't do all that serving, serving, serving, he's like, you're not really loved, you know, you're not really worth anything. And it does start to unravel, you know, the edges. Their false view is that is kind of that taskmaster, taskmaster that he has all these things for them to do that he has been the one to sign them up for VBS pastor's wives and you know, and like he wants them to all those things. And so he's running them ragged. So in the same way as the ones we want to say, actually, he's a God of easy burdens. it is not his desire to, for you to burn out. ⁓ that isn't the way. So if you are burning out those somewhere in there are things that God doesn't need you to do is my guess, ⁓ know? So they don't see, they don't see a God of ⁓ unconditional They see a God of conditional love. Like, When you help enough, when you do enough, when you give enough, I love you. But if you pulled back, I might not love you and I might forget you altogether. the true of God is that, like we said, He has unconditional ⁓ love the for all of us, but also that He has given us the Holy Spirit as the perfect helper. And therefore the twos can work alongside the Holy Spirit. But just like you mentioned, they don't have to be the Holy Spirit. Like God has given us a helper that is all sufficient, know, and all benevolent and that the twos can just listen to the Holy Spirit of like, okay, Holy Spirit, where am I working with you? And then what are the things that I'm leaving up to you? You know, because I don't have capacity for that. And so for them to just remember that, you know, that God's got it. Like he's got that perfect Holy Spirit and he loves you and he has a place for you though. Like he's not gonna forget you. It's not gonna be like you stop trying and then he's like, well, I don't actually need your help. No. He put you on this earth with your gifts. You're still gonna be a helper at the end of the day.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Hey man, that's so good. That's so good, Lindsey. Okay, I went to the best number.
Lindsey Lewis: are our achievers. They are gonna emphasize producing and success. ⁓ We go to Tyler's website and see all that he's producing. You're like the king of I think, in a good, healthy way, of course.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Yeah, it's so funny because I feel like I don't like I feel like I'm being unproductive. But like the ones probably feel like they're not they're flawed and not perfect, but they're like the most perfect, you know. So it just it's funny how that works.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, that's like your litmus test for is this your core number that doing a lot of you feel like you're not doing at all. ⁓ good. All right. So when they're in a healthy, their relationship with God, I mean, honestly, Tyler, I'm not joking. Like I do see a lot of these things in you just, and Jesse like Jesse's, you know, come out as three ⁓ and just hardworking ⁓ vision casting.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): So
Lindsey Lewis: Like they are using any kind of glory that they could conjure up and they're putting it on Christ. Like they're saying, I'm gonna use all this energy I have I'm gonna use it all. And any glory that comes my way, I'm just quickly deflecting it to Christ. you know, so some of it was fine on them, but. ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): That's good. I say threes known for photobombing Jesus. ⁓ hey, this ⁓ is doing this, but you know, we ⁓ some So yeah.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh, I need to write that down and use it. That's really good. Okay, so yes, they are also drawing people to God because Therese can have this magnetism, know, like people are just drawn to them. They're good with words. so they're, when they're doing that well in relationship with God, they are using all those giftings to help people. know who God is and that God loves them and is there for them and wants relationship with them. When it's unhealthy, honestly, yeah, one, and three is that watercolor picture you were talking about. Yeah, it's like those shades, they kind of like feed back into each other. I see a lot of the similar themes with one and two coming out in three, that when they're unhealthy, they're like, I gotta do more. Like I gotta produce more. and I gotta be shinier, you know, and I need to be better for Jesus, you know, like I'm doing it for Jesus, but I need to be like, I need to the right glasses and the right clothes, and I need to do a lot of things and I need to be in front of a lot of people, or I'm not doing enough for the kingdom, you know, and then, you know, heaven forbid if I do something really bad, you know, especially publicly, then I've destroyed Jesus, you know, and like you said, like, actually know, like you're in the background, Jesus is in the foreground. And he like, I mean, we do, I mean, we do actually mar the name of Christ on earth, but we don't change who Jesus is like his glory and power is unchanging, no matter what the three, you know, is doing. So ⁓ yeah, they have really high expectations, you know, of themselves, but also of God, like I'm gonna do this for you. You're gonna build my platform. Like I've heard that a lot in Christian worlds of like God is building my platform, you know? And that's supposed to be a holy thing. Like I'm not building my own platform. God is building it. And it's like, maybe there's no platform. Maybe you just can stand on the ground like everybody else. So I think, yeah, they just get really busy they can lose focus on they were in it for in the beginning. That makes sense. let's talk about their, the view that they have of God before we move on to the four. So yeah, ⁓ looking at God as having these high expectations and that he has this expectation against laziness, ⁓ you know, it's like, like rest is rest isn't just rest. And so that God, you know, when they're resting that God's like, what are you doing? Like you're on the clock. Like you need to get busy. Like you've got a lot to do and you gotta get going with that. ⁓ The true view of God is that God is the glorious one, right? That he is going to fulfill his purposes, that he has accomplished the work. know, a lot of the same things that we've said for one and two apply also to three of just, it is finished, like it's completed. And that we are co-heirs and coworkers, but we are definitely the subordinate, right? That we're the one who is learning, we're in process. and that we are humans and we need rest. have limits, like, you know, psychological limits, like so many types of limits that we have and that God isn't affected by any of those. Like that he isn't scared or upset with us, but that he just delights in three. And the main thing for the three to know about God is that he kind of like you're saying with your wife, he sees behind. ⁓ any sort of mask that we've created. Like he really knows the internal life and he loves you because of it. Like not in spite of it, but like that's what he loves. Like that's what he cherishes is not the made up image, but that essence of who you are. I think when we really believe that, when we can kind of maybe just a mustard seed of belief in that. threes can start to do that work of looking for the essence, you know, cause some of us have lost touch with it altogether. And so we have to be able to say, ⁓ yeah, this isn't me. Like this is kind of what I do, but again, my identity isn't worship pastor. My identity isn't lead pastor or missionary or all of these things that kind of make us as Christians feel like, well, now I'm something. And God's like, no, like those are not the things that I love you for. And so for us to do that inner work of saying like, yeah, like who I am in Christ is much deeper than missionary Bible school, you know, or, know, whatever. so yeah, God has never fooled and he ⁓ is us into his image from one degree of glory to another. And I think the REEs can especially appreciate that. Like every single day. He is moving you from one degree of glory to another into his likeness. So you can rest easy. Like there's glory to be had and God is just freely giving it to you day by day.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): love that. I love that.
Lindsey Lewis: So for the four, we say when they're healthy, they are the Psalms, you know, like if you read the Psalms, there's highest highs, the lowest lows, there is ⁓ anger, ⁓ like, you know, smash out the teeth of the wicked. ⁓ And there is like, you know, weeping and of ⁓ and that there's also this remembrance to it of like, we're constantly going back and telling a story, you know, which is, it's, very artistic, you know, their songs, their works of art. And so when I think of the fours in a healthy relationship with God, that's like what I'm seeing is just like, they're riding all the waves, you know, they're not denying any experience that God has for them. And they, but they also know that all of the experiences are anchored in their creator who again made them wonderfully. And so they can ride the lows and know that this is not who I am. This is a low moment, you know, and I'm gonna cry out to the Lord in my low. And then I'm gonna go to the high and I'm gonna know like, unlike some of those threes, you know, like I'm the high, I am just experiencing a high and that I give glory to God for that. So I could say way more, but I think that really encompasses the healthy four, you know, this of emotion to go through life with Christ. So want to add anything to that?
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): No, I think that's how I know I'm a three. I wondered if I was a four, but the Psalms were always my least favorite book of the Bible because it too, too, much, ⁓ much feelings. So I had to skip that in the Bible reading plan. ⁓ And then I hit a low and then I only did Psalms, read Psalms for a whole year ⁓ you know, after going through marriage struggles and, know.
Lindsey Lewis: Hahaha!
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): ⁓ And David is a good example. I think of pouring your heart out and being and authentic and then coming back and saying, but I will trust in you, you know, and moving forward ⁓ and not letting, letting himself get disillusioned to the point where he can't do anything and step back into the world. And you know, he gets stuff done. He moved the ball forward and ⁓ I think a great picture of a healthy form.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, it's like he was still the king.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): It's a key.
Lindsey Lewis: in battle and stuff, but he also resumes. So I think ⁓ they're unhealthy, ⁓ do attach much to some of their emotions, to the lows and to the highs at the expense of maybe other spiritual disciplines that would bring equanimity into their life. So they're like ⁓ over-identifying melancholy. And might be because they have sevens in their life. who are refusing to look at the dark side. And so they're like, I will stake my claim on the dark side. Like it deserves a voice, you know, and, it could be the other way around where they're, you know, singing of joy. I don't really see force doing that as much, but, but you know, they, ⁓ just identify with their emotions ⁓ and then skews ⁓ their with God because ⁓ All that tumult is, you know, I'm near to God, I'm far from God. I'm near to God, I'm far from God. Instead of it being like life is rocky, but God is the same. And so, and I think a lot of us do that. It's not just force, but we think when I feel God's presence, I'm close to God. And when I don't feel his presence or I don't understand the suffering I'm experiencing or I'm witnessing, so God is far. And it's really nothing about God isn't moving, like God isn't changing his position towards us ever. And so it's actually just our human way of understanding him. And we need to be able to say like, no, even when I don't feel it, God is near, as near as he was ⁓ you know, the birth of your baby or, know, these amazing moments that you have that you're like, praise God, you know, and it's the same, like God is the same. We're the ones changing, right? So that goes into the view of God they have this false view of God that they're saying, God, he actually made me little bit wrong. ⁓ Like he took his eye off the conveyor belt when I was through a few pieces, like ⁓ didn't get food in, you know? And so that creates a lot confusion then also with their relationship with of like, why did you make me this way? ⁓ Why am I not like X, Y, and Z at the staff meeting? Why are they, why do they have so much energy? Why do, because of course we're not seeing like, oh, that's their fatal flaw that they're displaying. They're just like, I don't have that. I don't have, or I don't have that pep, or I don't have just whatever it is. And they're looking to God saying, you made me, so why all the defects? Why am I like this? And then like you said, I mean, they can see God as withholding and distant because they pulled themselves away from the Lord or away from community. And then it starts when you're in a cave long enough, you don't remember who put who in the cave, you know, you're just, you're just there. And I think that's the false view, but fours maybe more than anyone can read that Psalm 139 and be like, that's not true. Like, God was so intentional when he made you. And if we didn't have fours in the world, we would have a huge lack. Like we would have a huge lack, like in creativity, in authenticity, people to sit, know, chevo with us in our grief, like people who call threes to that realness, know, people who are not enamored with all the shiny things necessarily. and that God made fours to be that anchor in the world and that that's exactly what he wants them to be, but that he also is near and that he also wants them to do that in community, that he has community for them and that there's nothing broken or wrong, you know, and that, but also that God, he is perfectly order and perfectly beauty. And so, Forests can live into that of, know, they can live an ordinary life with grocery shopping and laundry doing and meetings and wiping children's booties, know, whatever it is, ordinary that is kind of the order and structure of their life. And then they could also ⁓ always God for all his beauty. I mean, he literally created us to enjoy the fact that blue and green go together. and that the sky happens to be blue and the trees and the grass are green, like it could be black and white, but it's not, you know, and that fours, they're bringing that people's awareness of just the beauty of the glory of God and his creation. And ⁓ you know, kind like your hand thing. Like that's a way for me, I have a lot of four also. I actually thought I was a four when I first learned the enneagram and but the world is always right there. know, like even in the winter, like there are birds and there are flowers and ⁓ frozen waterfalls and you know, like that. It's always right there to realize that the beauty is there, you know. ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right, fives.
Lindsey Lewis: Okay, these are our investigators. They really like to emphasize knowledge and you know, they just love understanding how things work and the why and the how and you know, just going deeper and then deeper past deeper and you know, they love going down those rabbit trails of things. And so when they're healthy in their relationship with God, you know, they are using knowledge to fan the flame of love and service and right action to the Lord. You know, that they're saying like, wow, like God has made the universe intricately amazingly. And I want to study that for hours on end, but it's like always stirring up my heart in worship, you know, and that, and propelling me to right action within the community of God or in relationship with God. And so, You know, they can go deep into theology or deep into astrophysics or whatever it is, but always that it's stirring their heart of like, God is so amazing, you know, that he is all knowing and that he created things. You know, what we're talking about, he doesn't get tired, you know, and I was thinking about how like all the planets are like spinning this way and they're, but then they're always going around the sun and then they have moons and like, you know, it's just like talk about spinning plates, you know, that we talk about. ⁓ you know, and, and vibes want to understand how all that works, you know, and not necessarily space, but that's just an example. So yeah, they're curious and they can be great at, ⁓ contemplative practices because it's not scary for them necessarily, you know, to down and just still and quiet and curious, ⁓ you for how God's going to show up. Like, and they don't have to always. ⁓ speak, you know, like they can be in a group of people and just listening, listening, listening, you know, and they can really discover some of those deeper truths that, you know, I'm very quick to speak sometimes, you know, and I get really excited. And then like this whole interview, you know, like talking a hours an hour and there's, can be so rooted, you know, and like really grounded. And I think that helps.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): listeners.
Lindsey Lewis: helps other believers that if we can experience through them, it actually brings us also closer in our relationship to God. But the downside is when it becomes just knowledge for knowledge sakes, it's longer stirring them towards God. It's just like their own rat race of more, more, have to have more, I have to have more. And it isolates them. from communion with God and community with others because they would rather be so focused into a book or onto the computer than, you know, the horizontal and the vertical relationships that God has really created them for. And so just like the one with the doing, doing, it's like, when that came from an overflow, it's beautiful. And so when you're digging deeper, deeper, deeper, that can be beautiful until It's no longer an overflow of your love for God and his knowledge and just like a desire for more. And then also judging others when they don't have that, know, thinking like, well, you're not as good of a Christian or I have to listen to you because I know so many things. And so now I'm kind of becoming complacent in other spiritual avenues of my life because I'm so focused on The thing of value is knowledge.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): I love fives and the knowledge that they bring ⁓ the depth ⁓ we can just, especially ⁓ you go into the Bible or studying the Bible and fives help you to understand just the who God is. And there's these amazing books that we can point to, you knowledge of the holy and all these that like, wow, just grasping more of God is so worshipful. Yeah.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, I think of like the Bible project, you know what they're doing. They've got a lot of five energy over there and you listen to their stuff and you're just like, We're like, how amazing is your like outcome? think that's like that healthy thing we're looking for. And then you go to like seminary campus and people are like in their books and their families are floundering and it's like, that's not it, you know? And not all seminarians are like that. I was a seminary once, so, but that can be the lure of knowledge, you know? I think that that comes out with their views of God, that they view God as either ⁓ and withholding and not relational, or they're gonna figure him out ⁓ facts, ⁓ with a personal relationship, or they might see God ⁓ ⁓ overbearing, he so much of me, he doesn't know how low energy I am, he doesn't... know my limits and so I'm just gonna kind of like put up a boundary between me and God because I can't go out and like meet all those people's needs. Like I can't, you know, they can feel really overwhelmed with life and with what might be expected of them that they don't feel like they have the capacity to do, you know, but the true view of God is that he is all knowing. And he is as wonderful and spectacular as we could ever think he was, you know, like that he did create Pythagoras' theorem or whatever, you know, he can do all the math, he can do all the science. He created the galaxies and the orbits and gravity and all the things that I personally am not interested in. But people are, and that ⁓ great with that. You know, he is the creator of that. And he delights in our delight, like when we're delighting in his creation, when we're delighting in just the little nuggets of wisdom that we can have here on earth, that he actually delights in that. And that the same is true for vibes as these other numbers that we've said in that you're wonderfully made and that God knows your limits. ⁓ so he, it might feel like he's stretching your capacities ⁓ you know, or socially. And, that, ⁓ He knows your limits. He knows that you're dust and he knows exactly the way that you tick and that he wants to work with who you are to bring delight, to help your desires come into fruition, but in relationship with him. Like always flowing from that of ⁓ and relationship that we're getting with God.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): it. Love it.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): let's, are you ready to move on to type six? ⁓
Lindsey Lewis: Yes. ⁓ So the six is loyalist they really emphasize ⁓ faithfulness. know, Jesse always says, ⁓ cohost, these are the covenant you know, like they want to make a promise and they want to keep a promise and they want you to make a promise and they want you to keep your promise as well. ⁓ That's great ⁓ when healthy because God a covenant
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Love it. Yes.
Lindsey Lewis: You know, he says he is the one who fulfills the covenant. Like when we can't, that he, he's like, okay, I keep remaking these old Testament covenants with them. I'm just going to just take care of their sin for them. You know, like I'm just going to do the whole shebang you yeah, it's beautiful and it's wonderful. so ⁓ sixes in to God, they are, they are all in with a trustworthy leader. So when they have trust and communion with God, they're like, put me in. Like they can do things like a two, like they can serve, they can give, you know, they're interested in things like the one, they wanna be good, they wanna do the right thing, they wanna be for God's people. So in the church setting, for instance, they wanna be for that church. Like they're gonna stick it out, like through the messy stuff, you know, because they're really safe. within who God made them to be and who God is, that God is a safe and true God, right? But the unhealthy stuff comes out whenever they move from abounding in faith to abounding in doubt, you know, that they don't understand maybe why things have played out, which we all go through this, right? Where all of a sudden, maybe God's not exactly who we thought he was. based on our circumstances. And so they begin to either pull back or lash out. And so that could be, you know, within the church or just in their relationship with God, like forget it. Like I'm not, I'm not going to do this anymore. Like I'm not going to go to church with these untrustworthy people who keep hurting me and hurting other people. Or I'm not gonna, I'm not even going to try to meet with God because it's not going to show up. Like I don't trust that he is keeping covenant with me anymore. And I think we all struggle with, especially with our current culture with like mega churches and, you know, big church famous church leaders ⁓ and Christian like Christian I've heard a lot of people say about people that I think it can be hard for all of us. ⁓ And, know, especially six is if we're broken by a leader, you know, that we thought was faithful, that has been good. That taught us ⁓ so many things about the gospel, true things, good things about the Lord and enriched our life. And then they do something really awful, you know, or they turn out to be kind of this raging narcissist or something. We doubt God in a way that we would doubt them, you know, that it's like they turned the tables on us and it's like, ⁓ okay, well, I thought you were God's like spokesman to me. ⁓ now I'm not sure about my relationship with God. even though we, so hard to say. That person taught me the gospel and that's a beautiful thing. And I also completely reject what they're up to right now. You know, like that's really tricky in the Christian world. So yeah, as far as their views of God, they can have that same pendulum. They either see God as kind of this authoritarian, untrustworthy figure, or they're kind of all in with God as the loving, kind, good leader. He is the loyal God. He is the covenant keeper. He made the covenant. He fulfilled the covenant. and we can trust that he is always working out his plan into completion. Like he's not gonna leave a sheep behind, you know? And I think that we can take so much comfort who Jesus was when he was on earth, because he did not leave people behind. He wasn't too busy. He wasn't full of himself. He, you know, I think of the woman who had, you know, been sick for 12 years and he's on the way to like keep a little girl from dying. Like it's a big deal. You know, and that when the woman touches him, he could have just kept going and knowing in his heart like, she's healed. Like that's cool. You know, but he didn't like he stops, know, and he's going to let the little girl die because he knows, you know, he can raise her back and to like meet this ⁓ you know, who had been unclean and completely outcast for 12 years, you know, because of her illness and ⁓ You know that I think sixes can take a lot of, we can all take comfort in seeing that of Jesus. Like he would try to go away alone and then there'd be all these people there. And it says, you know, he just had compassion on them. Like he really does go after the one sheep. You know? so, yeah, I love that picture for sixes especially to meditate on if they're feeling distrustful of like, like Jesus was. gentle and lowly, you know, he was king of the universe.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right.
Lindsey Lewis: night seven. So yeah, the enthusiasts, they're going to really emphasize joy, like celebrating. ⁓ really need that. You know, we have a lot ⁓ do celebrate. And so, ⁓ know, in their relationship with God, you they have that faith like a child, like they they hear the gospel and they're like, let's tell everybody. In fact, let's throw a party. Let's throw a block party. Like, let's like, let's shout for joy. ⁓ you know, screaming in the streets. just love that they have so much, yeah, that childlike-ness to them. ⁓ since they're in the head triad, a lot of times that comes out in this deep curiosity. You know, they want to know ⁓ more about, you know, not like a five, you know, it's not as serious, more of a playful knowing, but they're so interested, you know. there's so many interesting things to know and to do and experiences to live. I think sevens really bring a lot of that to the table. They help us not get so stuck in like theology ⁓ or, you know, church politics ⁓ or all the suffering and brokenness of the world, which is really present. But they bring this like, but remember that's called good news. They love that, that aspect of it. The unhealthy side is they accidentally build all of their, you know, personal theology on only positive aspects of life and faith. And that's, ⁓ I mean, we could go through all the reasons why that's tricky, but one is people are You know, you have to be able to engage in suffering in a way to like meet with people. And then number two is that you're gonna suffer. So if you hit midlife and things, know, some of those big things that can go wrong, go wrong, where is your faith? Like where is your personal relationship with God if all you've ever based it on is kind of like the joy of the Lord is my strength. And then you're like clinically depressed and what do you do? You know, and so that can be dangerous. You know, if they're avoiding lament, you know, they're avoiding, of us can avoid any ⁓ of our ⁓ with Like we need the joy, we need to be able to live in ordinary time and we need to be able to ⁓ lament, ⁓ Because we over-focus on ⁓ one, missing out on the complete picture of who God is and how he's organized life to ⁓ You know, if that's on that.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): No, so how does that affect their view of God? Do they view God then as sort of the easygoing parent that just lets them do whatever they want and have as much fun as they want?
Lindsey Lewis: I think we would tend to say that they kind of have these two sides. Like one is that think that God is, yeah, he's like fun. He's almost like Santa Claus, you know, that he's here for the party. And though, like maybe that God kind of needs them to jazz him up a little bit. Like they're going to give Jesus a glow up, you know, that he could be a little stodgy and boring. So, you know, we're going to ⁓ liven up a little bit. But then I think also in life is hard that they can see God as a little bit like stingy and like he's withholding. Why would he withhold giving me every good thing today? know, wants fulfill my desires. Well, why isn't he fulfilling them today? And I think we see that in a lot of our hearts, not just sevens of like the scripture says this, but my experience of it, there's a gap ⁓ that is mystery that we don't understand sometimes ever. sometimes for just five more years, we might work it out. So I think sevens can kind of see God as like, yeah, like withholding and you know, that he's a little distant. So they have to conjure up feeling and fun and liveliness because if they stopped moving, they're afraid, yeah, the stillness, the emptiness would be deafening.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): they just need remember. ⁓ that ⁓ they can find greater joy by staying put and being faithful wherever they're at. that they can experience greater joy if they go through the pain rather than around it. ⁓ Just like Jesus said on the cross that he endured for joy. He went to the cross for the joy set before him. There's greater joy.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): should we move along to the eights then?
Lindsey Lewis: Let's do it. So the eights, We really emphasize victory, you know, and when I, when I say that word, I was trying to unpack a little bit to myself, like, like, what is that? You know, like, what is that? I have very low eight also. So I'm like, kind of struck me that victory is what happens when you're successful with control and power, you know, which we know the eights love control and power. So ⁓ you manage that well, like when you manage your armies, well, you, you have a victory. You know, and so, you know, that's what they're kind of like controlling outcomes a little bit. And they want, they want everything to be victorious in the end. Like they don't want to be controlled in the process.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Christus Victor is kind of a doctrine for for eights to to see victorious Christ ⁓ through his triumph over Satan, sin and death and how resonates with eights.
Lindsey Lewis: like the horse and the sword and like the whole thing. Yes, I love it. So when I picture a healthy eight and their relationship with God, ⁓ like one word just like is a banner in my mind and it's just zeal. You know, like they are these people who are just like zealous for the Lord. They have so much energy. They really care about the things that God cares about, know, like justice, like bringing up the
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Revelation Jesus.
Lindsey Lewis: and the needy, like they believe in the power of Christ. Like they're all about, you know, like, let's bring in some healing. Let's really believe these promises that God has said, you know, let's be strong in our faith. Like, just see them being these, I mean, they really are these leaders who are calling up, you know, they're like up wounds and like, stand up, like, come on, like, keep going. Like, they're these really zealous. ⁓ leaders. know, again, I picture David because, you know, fours and eights can have a lot in common. So we've got Psalmist David, which is like the four, but then like King David, I really see that eights in there, you know, that he is, just always like zealous for the Lord. He's doing whatever the Lord asks him to do. He's going into like crazy battles to fight for the Lord and then coming back and like dancing and like all this, you know, living the full glory of ⁓ God's And that's what I see like a really healthy eight their relationship with God. And I think, you ⁓
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Their character for aid is Deborah in the Old Testament and how she challenged, Barak ⁓ he wasn't listening to the Lord and taking the army to go fight the bad guys. And so I, and I, especially since she's a female, I love using that as a strong, strong female. ⁓
Lindsey Lewis: I wish we had more of Yeah, that's really good. I'm thinking of like all these Bible stories. yes, I think a key piece that we have to mention for their relationship with God is that even when they're zealous, even when they're leading ⁓ a healthy way, that has to have an anchor in understanding their own need for like forgiveness and mercy. Because I think we see the pendulum swing to this unhealthy side when it becomes, know, kind of knowledge for knowledge sake with a five, it's like power for power sake, know, victory for my own glory. because like we said before, Jesus was gentle and lowly, even though he was powerful. You know, he, ⁓ did make whip and like drive people from the temple. because that was his father's house. And because those people in the temple were taking advantage of God's other people, you know, the poor, the needy, the devout who couldn't even make a sacrifice because of these money changers and whatever. And I think eights have that, you know, that that's their healthy zeal. But then when we just start whipping people, cause they disagree with us, that isn't Jesus, you know, it wasn't a multi-purpose whip like, that he then carried the rest of his journey, you know? And I think that's that unhealthy side that eights can fall into is that, and also they have so much energy and like life that they can justify leaving people behind because it's like, if you can keep up my pace, I'm happy for you to run with me. If you fall behind, that's your own fault. And like the twos and the fours and like the six, like people who are very tenderhearted are like, I just am not. made that way. You know, I told you about my sister is an eight and she's like that. Like she's like, why aren't you keeping up? And I'm like, I just, I just have a different stride than you, you know, don't have as much energy as she does. And I never will like ever. ⁓ so I think for eights to be able to slow down again and say like, wait a minute, like what are God's priorities? Like what does he care about? more than power, know, people. if we're just ⁓ people behind, we need to reevaluate like what's driving us, you because it's no longer the Holy Spirit more than likely. So yeah, I think that they have, that's kind of that pendulum for them is like this amazing zeal for the Lord and using ⁓ all that given energy for that. But then getting going so fast that then they forgot that they supposed to be running with Jesus, you know, and being like Jesus in their running, I guess you could say. that they either think like, even God's too slow, like, so it's like, okay, get your way now, I'm gonna just like run with it and like into action. But I think the true view of God is that, you know, God is all powerful and that he also was zealous. Like we already gave the example of Jesus and casting out the people from the temple, that he has this righteous anger that he is not afraid of and that, you know, ⁓ can be part of the eighth story. But I think he also is calling them to their softer side, like that he is saying, you know, that wounded child inside of you, you know, that had to grow up, that had to like put on this armor. Like, I actually am safe for that person. the invitation to Jesus is to ⁓ still yourself and not to be afraid of what happen in the stillness. ⁓ Not to be afraid of what happened when you the initiator of action. And that maybe God has something extra special for you there. That in that discipline, in spiritual place, ⁓ that God will cultivate ⁓ newness of life within you that will then empower you for whatever your next is, know, your next big initiative is. ⁓ that, that we all need, you know, I think that's why eights go to five and why threes go to nine, you know, and it's because we ⁓ need time where we're pulling back, we're slowing down, and then we're refocusing our attention on what is this all for? Who is worth and being more like him.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): All right. Anything more about the eight or are you ready for the nine?
Lindsey Lewis: I'm ready to do the nines. the nines are peacemakers. What they emphasize is shockingly peace. ⁓ I think the thing that nines are longing for and that they kind of embody is this kind of a garden mentality. Like they are looking for the peace of the garden. And beautiful thing is that Jesus says he is the Prince of peace. ⁓ You he is like because of him, we have peace with God. and that we know in the end there is gonna be a new heaven and a new earth, that he is making all things new. And I think that's ⁓ are embodying ⁓ all of this peacefulness that they want, and also like the reconciliation that God brings. ⁓ nines exhibit that. They have such a love for all sides to be seen and all sides to be heard ⁓ the cost of themselves, of not. seeing themselves. So I think when they're healthy, they're awake to that. They're awake to the presence of God, of Christ, and longing for that already not yet tension to be fulfilled, you know, and that they're fueled by Jesus's life and ⁓ lifestyle and that motivates them to right action. So they're able to take steps in their own life to serve God in their own capacities in a way that's beautiful, that it is bringing reconciliation and peace within the community of God. The bad news is that nine's kind of have this tendency to fall asleep, even to themselves. So they're sleepwalking in their life. And so they're not taking that right action.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): need more zeal. They need some of eight zeal. That's a command to actually be zealous.
Lindsey Lewis: Yeah, they need to like get that tattooed on their arms. Yeah. And then they can fall into like narcotizing, you know, the idea of like a fake piece, know, a fake, a piece that I get when I watch a show or if I eat some candy or I play a video game where I'm like numbing myself so that I don't feel how hard this life is. I don't feel the brokenness and the tension that exists. But there's an invitation in the brokenness, right? That our oneness with Christ often, like we said for the three, comes from acknowledging I'm broken, like I can't do this anymore. And that's something that the nines may be resisting in an unhealthy way in their relationship with God. And they can not show up because they just don't even think that they matter. they've lost their own voice they really trust that somebody else will say what needs to be said. know, especially they're surrounded by ace and ones, you know, on each side. So they're like, ⁓ let the eight and the ones speak. Cause they've got lots of things to say, you know, they've got rules and they've got agendas and they've a of things going on. So who needs my voice ⁓ the Like I'll just kind of lay low. I won't cause trouble maybe, you know, but ⁓ you know, God doesn't really need me in his plan, I think is the unhealthy side. think that they can like a five believe that God is going to have more demands than what they can give. that, and nines are very stubborn, you know? So then they kind of shut down and they're kind of got their heels dug in cause it's like, that's too much. Like I can't do all that, you know? And so I'm going to just, you know, stick to this really, I'm going to stick to this like really easy path because I don't trust myself and I don't trust you to equip me to do maybe this harder task that I see. But the true view is that they are such a beautiful picture of Christ, like the true like that compassion that we talked about that Jesus came and he called all these disciples that were all like incredibly different, you know, and that he ⁓ that he was able to hold all that, that he is this wholeness and fullness that nines aren't perfect like Jesus, but they do hold so many things together in a similar way that the person of Jesus on earth was able to also do, you know, and that their for peace ⁓ comes like we said, that Jesus is the peacemaker, that he's the reconciler, like, and that Those things are beautiful, but they can also trust that God is the God who can calm the storm. You know, like that kind of piece, like your life feels like the storm, but believing that God is bigger than the storm. Like he's bigger than the He's bigger than the to-do lists. I mean, like you get a nine who's got a job and a family and kids. If you add in any sort of like health issue, mental issue, like financial issue, it's just like, Like that's a storm, right? That we all experience and Jesus, know, all it takes is a word for Jesus to say, peace be still, you and that the nines can rest in that, that that can be their peace, ⁓ that a deeper peace than I feel at ease right now. It's a deep peace knowing I am with the one who calms the storm. Well, I can weather the storm.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): Mm-hmm.
Lindsey Lewis: knowing that I know the author of the calm.
Tyler Zach (Lindsey): thank you so much for joining me and Lindsey to learn the Enneagram through a gospel lens so you can transform your life and your relationships go in peace
