When Dad Feels Forgotten: Resentment, Intimacy & the Transition to Fatherhood

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On the tail end of feelings like that
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comes often resentment and bitterness.
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It's your fault, you're not meeting my needs, I feel
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alone in this. Yeah, or worse, it's the kid's fault.
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And, or there you go, or it's not isolated,
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just resentment toward our partner. It can end up as resentment
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toward the children that I'm supposed to be loving and protecting. And then
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To make matters worse, on the tail end of that comes shame.
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You are tuning into Two Guys Having a Conversation, a podcast
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where we dive deep into the real issues men face but often don't discuss.
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Each episode, we explore what it means for men to integrate their past,
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reconnect their relationships, and awaken to their fullest self.
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Because nobody can do it alone, we bring to light the support of women,
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families, and communities that help men break through barriers in navigating this journey.
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Journey. Join us as we create a space for honest
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and open dialogue, inspiring a passage to a fuller,
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healthier life. And, you know, I think that there's a
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lot of power in, you know, doing a small exercise or a practice
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to ground ourselves. So maybe we could do that after introduce
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the topic, but also acknowledging that, you know, oftentimes I play podcasts in the background,
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or it's kind of like the second thing as I focus on something else,
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and I really have to consciously tune over and, uh,
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and, and really, really pay attention to what is being said. So to our listeners,
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if there is one segment that you would listen to,
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this is perhaps going to be the one to do a
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small practice to get grounded, reduce activation if you're
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activated, and simply just be present in the moment. But first,
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I want to talk about our topic for today, which brings me a lot of
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excitement, and definitely a lot of memories
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and re-experiences. And that is one of
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becoming a new parent. And specifically, you know, when we're talking about
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men in presence, in relationship with
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children, when the relationship with
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their partner and themselves frankly changes when
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new kids and their kids enter this world
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and their life changes. I think there's a lot of here,
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a lot of important content here that we could talk about that relates
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to many and explore some of the challenges and struggles that
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men may face. Are you saying that this is an episode for fathers,
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particularly new fathers, young families,
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partnerships with young children?
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Young children being between the ages of 0 and 7,
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let's say. That's a fair way of putting it. Yeah, that's a great way of
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putting it, Aaron. Or even like 0 to
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4, you can kind of like,
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this being like the important developmental stage
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for the young child, but this also being maybe
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the most difficult time on a relationship.
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The inclusion of a
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baby or a small child or multiple children who are completely
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reliant on mom in particular. Yeah,
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I would definitely say so. But would you like to start with a small
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grounding practice? Yeah, I mean, I guess first, for those
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of you out there who are in this right now, who are in
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this stage of family life and relationship
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that we're describing, the stage of new children,
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I guess I would invite you first to maybe
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notice for yourself,
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and notice not just mentally, cognitively, but notice
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somatically, meaning in
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the body, how this feels in the body to to
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imagine, to tap into what it's like for you
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in that. Because for a lot of men, this comes with great struggle,
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great uncertainty, great loneliness.
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Resentment can come, bitterness can come.
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Or for some men, this is full of joy and excitement
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and, um,
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And everything in between. So I don't want to assume that young
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family life, new family life is easy for you or difficult
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for you. I don't know. It's unique to each of us.
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But maybe begin first by just like ensuring you're
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in a comfortable position, you're Comfortable
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enough that you're able to access the felt
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sense of your own self.
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The felt sense means like, it's not just about the sensation of
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the body, but it's certainly sensations.
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It could come with emotion, which are felt
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in the body. It could come with images. It could come with words
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or meaning.
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But as you settle into your chair
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or your seat, and as we
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begin to offer
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this image to you, image of family life,
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what it's like to be in your partnership, what it's like to be
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responsible for new children,
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young children. I just want you to notice
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for you what that comes with, how that feels in your body, how that
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lives in your body.
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I want you to notice what happens in your body
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as you begin to tap into this
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experience. Where in
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your body this lives. That means, like, for example,
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you might notice your chest collapse.
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Or your shoulders become tense and start to ride up to your ears.
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Or this could flood you with feelings of joy,
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openness, spaciousness.
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This could bring collapse with it. You could feel yourself shutting down and
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going offline.
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And in that, I want you to notice what
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you might need, what your body might need in this moment,
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at least in this moment, to hold
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that.
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Reassurance,
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to be supported, to be heard,
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to know that you're not alone in it.
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A hand of support resting on your shoulder.
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A hug from your partner to let you know that she's still there with
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you. She hasn't forgotten about you. Or he.
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I want
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you to just notice in what you're feeling what your body needs.
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To move through this. What your
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body needs so
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that it's not too much to hold.
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If possible, you give your body that.
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If it's reassurance from a man just like
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you, then you can imagine even my hand on your
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Hand of support. Hand of connection.
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If it's reassurance from your partner, you might even imagine their
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warm embrace and their words of reassurance.
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And if you can tap into whatever it is you sense
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your body-mind needs in order to hold this experience or even
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move through this. If you can use your imagination
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to give your body-mind that, then I want you to notice
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what happens. What happens in your body when
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you receive reassurance, when you receive that hand of support,
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or whatever it is. You sense your body-mind
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needs.
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There's no right or wrong here. It's— you
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are practicing tuning into,
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tapping into your felt experience,
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and then noticing What
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is you need in that?
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And then opening yourself to receive that.
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Kirill, when— what are you noticing right now?
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You look like you're in thought, imagining something.
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What's going on for you? Yeah, I went into, you know, a space where
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I was in between my firstborn and my secondborn, and like looking
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at the contrast, um, of the sort of joy and
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experience of happiness I felt, and I was trying to tap into
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tap into that, um, when, um, either of them actually were
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born. And, um, that gave me, you know, a sense of
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calm, sense of presence. Like, I feel, feel myself
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more collected, um, and, um,
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just like more supported because of that. And I think
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that feeling of when you said, what does it feel like to have the feeling
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of support? And it's, um, it, it's, it's that feeling For
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me personally, kind of the serenity and feeling calm
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and collected. In your body, you can feel like the calmness?
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Yeah, I can feel the calmness, like less tension. What type of support were
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you imagining? Myself just feeling
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like somebody's got my back. And I think that's
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from that envisioning,
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I just felt like there was something there that I can lean on, that I
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could go to as a place, yeah, uh, when I'm feeling activated
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or agitated or, um, alone.
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Alone, yeah, this— that's exactly it. When I feel lonely
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in my thoughts or, you know, in, in the way that I'm seeing myself,
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um, yeah, I think that that's that sort of a bit of a
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backbone that helps me reground and say, okay, like, I'm okay.
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Even knowing you're not alone. No, I'm not alone. Somebody has your back.
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Yeah, but I mean, you just nailed the key.
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Like, that's really not just in this context
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of what we're talking about, but in life. I mean, that's just
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it, is that we need to feel that someone has our back and
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that we're not alone. And when we feel like someone
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has our back and we're not alone, then our
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capacity to move through any one experience or hold any one
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experience increases compared
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to feeling isolated and alone and overwhelmed.
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And because I think this is
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actually common
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for a lot of men with new families,
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is that they end up feeling really alone and isolated in it.
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They'll often feel like they lost their partner through it even.
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Like everything was wonderful. Me and my partner were so close and we had amazing
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sex and we were intimate every night.
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And, you know, we're best friends. We're always doing fun things together
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and we're always traveling and we're always going to events. Or if
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we're not doing that stuff, you know, we're spending our evenings cuddled
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up on the couch and watching a show. And now we have kids
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and I feel like I've lost my partner. I feel
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like she doesn't even see me. I feel like she no longer
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has desire for me. I feel like the
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kids are most important and I'm no longer noticeable.
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My only job here now is to hunt
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and gather, so to speak. My only job is to get
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shit. Money and food and And I'm
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otherwise unnoticed.
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Very common, I think, for men. I don't know if that was your experience or
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has been your experience. You have small, I mean, children,
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right? How old are your children? Yeah, they're 5 and 3 now. 5 and 3.
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So you're right in like the meat of it, or at least maybe just even
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just kind of coming out of the most difficult part.
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I think the most difficult part of it. I would certainly
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second that. It is perhaps the most trying time in the
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relationship with my partner. Um, that was, and now
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coming out of it and kind of rediscovering our
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connection in the, in the new light and going back to the things that
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we used to do. So it is, it does happen. Oh, you can rediscover.
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Yeah. You know what? It is possible. And, uh, I'm living
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that now. But I do remember a time too, what you mentioned,
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the sense of, that provider mindset
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and the protector mindset, it's heightened.
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And I think that when your offspring enters the
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world and you realize that, for what
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I've come to appreciate is the toll and the impact
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that that experience has on the woman's body.
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And highest degree of respect, I don't believe men are built
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to withstand that much pain and that much, that much stress
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and trauma on the body. But something that
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I think both took, took both myself and my partner by surprise.
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And like her, she didn't have access to her own
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body. Pretty much. Yeah. You don't even know what body you're
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in. And, um, I mean, that's really important
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to highlight. And I'm not a woman and you're not a woman,
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obviously, but, um, I've learned now
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from being with a woman with children that it
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feels like for most women that their
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body isn't even theirs anymore. Absolutely.
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Yeah, their body belongs to these children,
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whether that's because of breastfeeding or always having little
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ones attached at your hip. Like,
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your body isn't your own anymore. And when
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your body doesn't feel like your own, when you don't have access to
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your own body, and that means enjoyment of your body,
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relaxation in your body, like pleasure in your body,
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when you're overtaxed and overwhelmed and touched out,
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how likely do you think it is that you feel desire
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for more touch or more closeness? Or how
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likely do you think it is that they have access to um,
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sexual desire and the erotic and sexual
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pleasure? Yeah, not very much. Not very, not very likely?
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Not very likely, no. And so what do you think that
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feels like for most men, to go from having a partner
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who perhaps we were intimate all the time and very close to suddenly
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it seems like zero? Yeah,
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there's a sense of loss of connection for sure, in a big way.
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Yeah, yeah, for sure. How do you think, how do you imagine
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most men internalize it?
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Uh, perhaps a sense of abandonment or loneliness. Yeah, I've been abandoned.
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I've been relying on someone, you know, for— like,
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I'll go as far as to say emotional regulation and emotional safety and comfort,
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and that is not accessible anymore,
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very evidently and very consistently. And like
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you said, like, you know, our role becomes going through the motions and making
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sure that our loved ones are supported. You know, for myself, like I remember,
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um, it's almost like, and we'll cover
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this in another episode, the perfectionist tendencies. Like we have to have all these things
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just right, you know, before we, uh, before we have a baby.
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And, you know, you spend, I spent a lot of time obsessing over
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it and, you know, making sure that we like, um,
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we had everything, uh, enough money,
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enough, resources. Yeah, enough resources that everything was in
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place. And my partner actually did a lot of that research and a
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lot of the, um, kind of procuring it. And then I made sure that it
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was everything, that everything was functioning optimally and that there was support,
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because that's, that's the way that I express love, is through acts of service in,
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in my traditional understanding. So you wanted to ensure that you had the
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ability to provide the service and the resources
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so you could do your part. I mean, that's— first of all, I just want
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to acknowledge that it's amazing that you guys approached it in such a mindful way
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and like you tried to cover all bases to
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make sure there's enough, because most people don't. They go into it pretty naive
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and blind, and most
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people are far too under-resourced to take on this
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massive journey,
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responsibility, and then they're
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shocked when they collapse under the weight of it all. It's a crushing
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overwhelm for sure. And I would certainly feel for those
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who are maybe going into it, like you said, naively, and the weight,
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because I mean, we had been or thought
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we were proactive, but that sense of overwhelm and oh shit, like what
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do we do now? As soon as we left the hospital and came home,
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Yeah, that was all there. And I had to certainly learn every
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single day. And at that time, you're also not getting a lot of sleep,
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you know, becoming a parent for the first time, and you want to cater to
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the needs of the little one. And that takes— that can take
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a big toll as well. So there's this awareness of needing to or wanting to
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tend to the needs of the little one.
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And for a lot of men, that comes alongside
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Who's taking care of my needs? Exactly. Who's tending to me?
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And whether that's need for emotional
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connection, whether that's need for physical intimacy,
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including sex, whether that's,
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um, time spent or whatever,
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suddenly it can be for a lot of men like, my needs aren't getting
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met now. And You're the one not
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meeting my needs. You forgot about me.
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All you care about is that baby. Sounds like some resentment
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may be building there. Yeah, there you go. That's what I was leading
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us towards. So on the tail end of feelings like that comes
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often resentment and bitterness. It's your fault.
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You're not meeting my needs. I feel alone in this. Yeah,
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or worse, it's the kid's fault. Or, there you go, or it's
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not isolated, just resentment toward our partner. It can end up as resentment
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toward the children that I'm supposed to be loving and protecting.
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And then to make matters worse, on the tail end of that comes shame,
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because I shouldn't be feeling these things toward my child or my partner.
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I'm supposed to feel connected to them and protective of them
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and in love with them. And And
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that doesn't always come so easily or so instantly, so quickly. And,
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and so without understanding what's really
22:22.438 --> 22:25.920
going on, that can come with a lot of shame. Like, I'm, I'm not
22:26.129 --> 22:29.370
doing what I'm designed to do as the man and the father,
22:30.221 --> 22:32.275
which is protect and love and provide.
22:32.932 --> 22:36.270
Yeah, walking around angry without knowing why you're angry. And I
22:36.318 --> 22:40.779
think in the absence of, you know, channels to, um, to nurture
22:41.518 --> 22:45.178
whether it's the connection or feeling, getting your
22:45.678 --> 22:49.530
needs met by having even an interaction with other people,
22:50.429 --> 22:54.379
just to be able to express that and say like, and connect
22:54.879 --> 22:57.446
with someone who perhaps is going through the same, or just even learn that you're
22:57.946 --> 23:02.006
not alone. Because what you're doing is you are so hyper-focused on being the
23:02.506 --> 23:05.651
provider, being the protector, and bring home the bacon.
23:06.020 --> 23:09.152
And, you know, you know, make sure that the little ones and the mom are
23:09.652 --> 23:12.590
okay, but forgetting to tend to your own needs. And then when time comes and
23:13.090 --> 23:16.687
you're feeling angry, nobody's catering to my needs and I
23:17.187 --> 23:21.120
can't advocate for my needs. And so there's the kind of really internalized conflict.
23:22.100 --> 23:25.345
So I have needs, but I'm also— when you say not advocating for my needs,
23:25.859 --> 23:29.876
meaning I'm not actually sharing with the
23:30.376 --> 23:34.373
people maybe who matter most what my needs actually are and And
23:34.873 --> 23:38.546
so I hold them all in. I don't express them. There's the
23:39.046 --> 23:42.493
resentment and the bitterness as well. I'm not actually saying, um,
23:43.200 --> 23:46.538
and if I am saying what they are, that I have
23:46.746 --> 23:50.341
certain needs, it doesn't— that also doesn't mean they're— that they can be met,
23:51.609 --> 23:55.139
right? I might be saying them, but I wouldn't
23:55.155 --> 23:59.007
assume that just because I say I have a need for sex right now that
23:59.507 --> 24:02.465
that means my partner should Um, oblige.
24:04.202 --> 24:07.566
And if she doesn't oblige, then I'm saying, you're not meeting my needs and it's
24:08.066 --> 24:11.372
your fault and I'm gonna go find it somewhere else. Right, exactly.
24:11.741 --> 24:14.184
Yeah, that's just destructive. Ready to jump ship,
24:14.554 --> 24:18.233
right? Things aren't happening the way I want, I'm out of
24:18.249 --> 24:21.659
here. Or let's open the marriage up. We're not having sex,
24:22.713 --> 24:26.071
can we open the relationship up so I can be having sex? Like, that's a
24:26.120 --> 24:29.438
modern thing now. I'm not getting what I want here.
24:29.566 --> 24:33.030
My needs aren't being met here. Can we open up the relationship
24:33.530 --> 24:36.926
so that I can be having sex with other people? And then
24:37.426 --> 24:40.807
we make it worse. We make it worse. Yeah.
24:41.496 --> 24:44.767
Hey, quick pause for a second. If your brain
24:44.799 --> 24:48.375
feels like it has 37 tabs open and none of them are loading properly,
24:49.209 --> 24:51.983
you're not broken, you're just overloaded.
24:52.897 --> 24:56.392
Aaron created something simple called Reset. It's a short guided
24:56.424 --> 24:59.943
somatic practice that helps your nervous system settle so you can
25:00.039 --> 25:03.075
actually feel present again. It takes just a
25:03.108 --> 25:07.294
few minutes and you can use it every day. Download it for free at
25:07.794 --> 25:10.730
theomeinstitute.com or by clicking on the link in the show notes.
25:13.910 --> 25:17.784
Some people might not want to hear this, but dads might
25:17.816 --> 25:21.987
not want to hear this, but in those first developmental
25:22.581 --> 25:26.949
years, 0 to 3, is considered like the first major
25:27.449 --> 25:31.107
developmental stage. Developmental stage means these are like key times when the
25:31.607 --> 25:35.651
brain is developing. And especially in those first 3 years, like this is, the brain's
25:35.683 --> 25:38.959
developing, part of that is the attachment system, the relational
25:39.457 --> 25:42.796
system. This is where we're learning
25:48.068 --> 25:51.799
whether we can rely on others to tend to our needs. This is where
25:52.299 --> 25:55.431
we're learning whether relationship is safe,
25:55.689 --> 25:59.305
whether, yeah,
25:59.321 --> 26:03.357
whether we can rely on others to meet our needs, basically. Or maybe
26:03.857 --> 26:07.446
during this time we learn that we can't rely on others to take care
26:07.559 --> 26:11.635
of us and meet our needs. You know, as a baby, I have
26:12.135 --> 26:16.448
a need. I cry and somebody
26:16.948 --> 26:20.660
shows up and tends to me. And then
26:21.160 --> 26:24.779
I learn I can rely on someone to show up. Or as a baby,
26:24.925 --> 26:28.417
I have a need and I cry and nobody
26:28.917 --> 26:32.117
shows up. And I don't know if anyone's gonna actually show up because I'm a
26:32.133 --> 26:35.509
baby. I don't know. And if they don't show up,
26:35.927 --> 26:39.175
if they're not responsive, reliably responsive,
26:39.287 --> 26:42.743
then I learn that I can't rely on others
26:42.936 --> 26:46.800
to tend to my discomfort, or my need for closeness, or my
26:46.864 --> 26:49.717
need for food, or warmth,
26:49.749 --> 26:53.693
or whatever. And so this important developmental
26:53.998 --> 26:57.862
stage, in this important developmental stage,
26:57.942 --> 27:01.453
mom and baby, and they're, you use the word
27:01.953 --> 27:05.461
tethered, is of the highest importance.
27:05.621 --> 27:08.956
There's nothing more important than that baby being
27:09.213 --> 27:12.684
attached to mom. As much as possible,
27:12.878 --> 27:15.664
like literally attached to her body as much as possible.
27:18.016 --> 27:20.342
In that stage, dads aren't really that important at all.
27:22.323 --> 27:25.794
They don't even really need to be there, to be honest, other than to tend
27:26.294 --> 27:29.425
to mom. The baby doesn't need dad then. That's not when dad
27:29.925 --> 27:33.320
is important. So dad, his role in
27:33.820 --> 27:36.980
those first stages, those first couple of years of life,
27:37.012 --> 27:41.035
his role is to ensure that mom has all that she needs. So she can
27:41.629 --> 27:44.023
be as there for that baby as possible.
27:45.646 --> 27:49.665
And in that way, he's ensuring that that baby can develop
27:50.165 --> 27:52.900
securely. It can develop a secure attachment system,
27:53.790 --> 27:57.608
because that baby will always be tended to and attuned to by
27:58.108 --> 28:01.154
mother, if she has the capacity, internal capacity herself,
28:01.721 --> 28:05.010
to do so. Where dad becomes most important is
28:05.351 --> 28:09.137
right after that period of time. Where Dad becomes the
28:09.637 --> 28:12.285
most important is when it's time to adventure away from Mom.
28:14.302 --> 28:17.837
Where Dad becomes most valuable to that child is when
28:17.870 --> 28:21.183
it's time to explore and play and
28:21.683 --> 28:22.944
adventure.
28:24.828 --> 28:28.232
Show that child, hey, you're safe to move away
28:28.732 --> 28:31.426
from Mother, and I got your back. I'm going to show you the way.
28:32.168 --> 28:34.942
We're going to explore. We're going to play. And I'm right here with you.
28:35.046 --> 28:38.282
You. And mom's still there. And baby trusts that
28:38.782 --> 28:41.903
mom is still there because baby just spent 2 or 3 years attached to mom,
28:43.073 --> 28:46.999
and she was reliably present and responsive.
28:47.143 --> 28:50.331
And so baby has learned, I have mom to fall back on.
28:50.508 --> 28:54.369
There's no reason for me to fear going off and adventuring and
28:54.869 --> 28:58.567
exploring with dad now, because I can— I know that mom
28:58.599 --> 29:01.756
will be there, and she'll always be there, and she'll attend to me if
29:02.256 --> 29:05.912
I'm hurt or if I'm have a need. So now dad is like,
29:06.297 --> 29:10.472
can be fun. You just need to be fun and, and, and, and play
29:10.569 --> 29:13.989
and adventure and wrestle. I mean, for boys
29:14.037 --> 29:17.345
especially, maybe, but just there now.
29:17.778 --> 29:21.889
Now you're— now you have some importance. You gotta be
29:21.969 --> 29:24.988
fun, adventurous, playful dad.
29:25.984 --> 29:29.372
Perfect. Yeah, no, it sounds, it sounds amazing. And, uh,
29:29.741 --> 29:33.668
you know, to me The involvement of dads
29:33.943 --> 29:37.752
these days, for many different factors, at the
29:38.252 --> 29:42.079
earlier stages of a child's development and a child's upbringing
29:43.574 --> 29:48.348
is becoming essential for them to build that bond too and be part of things
29:48.444 --> 29:51.984
like bottle feeding or just caring
29:52.016 --> 29:55.345
for the kid while mom gets a little bit of a break. Dad disappears out
29:55.845 --> 29:59.092
of the picture completely, but Um, give them that opportunity.
29:59.431 --> 30:02.714
I think that's a very healthy way, at least for myself.
30:02.762 --> 30:05.288
I found it was to be involved like that.
30:05.434 --> 30:08.892
And something in this conversation
30:09.103 --> 30:12.350
is hitting close to home. You don't have to figure it out on your
30:12.415 --> 30:16.110
own. Aaron works one-to-one with men using somatic
30:16.610 --> 30:19.930
integration therapy. It's a body-based approach that helps you actually
30:20.430 --> 30:24.295
process what you've been carrying, not just talk about it. This is for
30:24.359 --> 30:27.441
you if you're tired of overthinking, shutting down, or feeling stuck
30:27.941 --> 30:31.597
in the same patterns, especially in your relationships. Working with
30:32.097 --> 30:34.213
Aaron is direct, honest, and deeply human.
30:35.369 --> 30:38.739
You can learn more or book a free call with him at theohminstitute.com.
30:39.541 --> 30:42.719
Find the link in the show notes. And so you've come full circle because,
30:42.815 --> 30:46.410
you know, we just described the stages or a state of
30:47.710 --> 30:52.044
being or feeling that a man goes through, maybe most
30:52.060 --> 30:56.250
men go through, when their relationship with their partner or spouse
30:56.780 --> 31:00.247
changes as a result of kids entering into the world,
31:00.392 --> 31:03.217
and they don't feel like they're being attended to. They don't feel like,
31:03.779 --> 31:07.327
who's gonna care for me now? You know, that attention that I used to receive
31:07.827 --> 31:11.164
is now divided. And so to me, it sounds like a
31:11.228 --> 31:15.065
lot of it really goes back to way far back when
31:15.579 --> 31:19.416
we talk about development of the attachment system in young
31:19.609 --> 31:23.645
children. So yeah, I mean, if a man came into a relationship
31:24.290 --> 31:25.517
predominantly secure,
31:29.275 --> 31:33.390
and then him and his partner start a new family, and he's experiencing what
31:33.890 --> 31:36.876
we're describing, it doesn't mean it wouldn't be difficult for him.
31:38.439 --> 31:44.006
But it's more likely that he would
31:44.038 --> 31:47.421
be okay in it. He would trust that things would come back.
31:47.988 --> 31:50.804
He would be okay, much more okay on his own,
31:51.990 --> 31:55.251
tending to what needed to be attending to, knowing that he
31:55.751 --> 31:58.867
has a secure base at home. He trusts that it's there. He trusts that it's
31:59.367 --> 32:03.156
going to bounce back. He trusts that you can have moments of
32:04.788 --> 32:07.969
ebbs and flows of connection and that it always comes back.
32:08.050 --> 32:11.259
There's a, there's a inherent trust or security
32:11.451 --> 32:13.909
in the relationship container.
32:14.969 --> 32:18.374
We can have a rupture, and I know that we'll repair and come back.
32:18.503 --> 32:22.101
We can have an ebb, even if it's a month long,
32:22.197 --> 32:25.667
where it feels like we're not close, we're not as in— we're not
32:26.167 --> 32:31.048
intimate as much, but, um, but I know that it'll
32:31.548 --> 32:34.839
come back like it always does. So if a man was moving into new
32:34.903 --> 32:38.397
family life from a much more secure place, Yeah, it would probably still
32:39.415 --> 32:43.779
be at times trying on his relational
32:44.279 --> 32:47.733
system, but I think predominantly he would move through it securely.
32:51.497 --> 32:56.267
Whereas if a man's like already quite anxious
32:57.202 --> 32:58.508
in his attachment system,
33:01.990 --> 33:04.427
at probably at the first sign of disconnect,
33:05.800 --> 33:09.043
At the first sign of feeling not as important,
33:09.124 --> 33:12.339
not as noticed, not as desirable,
33:13.019 --> 33:18.123
immediately his system is gonna go
33:18.140 --> 33:22.799
into that anxious place
33:22.977 --> 33:26.356
where he assumes doom. Right. It goes,
33:26.858 --> 33:30.082
it goes there instantly. It's like, this is it. This is the end of
33:30.582 --> 33:33.965
us. I'm not loved anymore. I'm being
33:33.997 --> 33:37.588
rejected. I'm definitely going to be abandoned. And the more he feels that,
33:37.604 --> 33:41.567
if we're talking about someone with a predominantly anxious attachment
33:42.067 --> 33:46.506
system, the more he feels that possibility of abandonment
33:46.570 --> 33:50.414
or disconnection or rejection, he's going
33:50.430 --> 33:54.410
to push
33:54.524 --> 33:58.384
forward. He's going to do whatever he
33:58.884 --> 34:02.695
can to get the right words he needs to hear from
34:02.711 --> 34:05.580
his partner, to get the closeness he needs from his partner,
34:06.317 --> 34:09.506
to convince her to have sex with him. Because if
34:10.006 --> 34:13.656
he can just get the right words, or the closeness he wants, or the sex,
34:13.688 --> 34:17.374
or whatever, then at least for that moment, his anxious
34:17.874 --> 34:21.909
attachment system can come back down. He can be soothed.
34:22.491 --> 34:25.735
He can experience some relief and some reassurance that,
34:25.751 --> 34:28.882
nope, I'm okay. I'm not being abandoned. I'm not being
34:28.914 --> 34:32.626
rejected. Until he feels it again the next
34:33.126 --> 34:36.554
day or the next week. It's short-lived. It's very short-lived.
34:36.619 --> 34:40.468
Yeah. And then he'll do the same dance. He'll get
34:40.968 --> 34:44.321
all anxious in himself, and he'll need
34:44.353 --> 34:47.624
to do whatever he needs to do, say whatever he
34:48.124 --> 34:51.643
needs to say, or you know, chase after
34:51.675 --> 34:55.079
her. Yeah. To get the closeness that he
34:55.579 --> 34:59.334
needs to reassure his system that everything's okay. And the cycle will just repeat.
34:59.382 --> 35:03.653
If he's got a more avoidant attachment
35:04.153 --> 35:07.988
system, more prone to shut down and turning away and
35:08.488 --> 35:12.340
pulling away, then as soon as he senses that
35:12.548 --> 35:16.516
his he's not, you know,
35:16.564 --> 35:20.566
attuned to his partner, or his partner's not attuned to him, then probably
35:20.662 --> 35:24.750
he will shut down. And he will pull
35:24.783 --> 35:28.049
away. And he will isolate. And he will,
35:29.957 --> 35:33.093
you know, go, rather than, you know,
35:33.320 --> 35:37.366
reaching out for a connection, or expressing
35:37.463 --> 35:41.575
his feelings of aloneness, or isolation.
35:41.688 --> 35:46.024
He'll hold it all in. He'll turn away, and he'll probably
35:46.056 --> 35:49.276
get sucked into just that
35:49.776 --> 35:53.342
shutdown isolation. Yeah, it doesn't sound like a, you know,
35:53.471 --> 35:56.149
healthy, healthy coping system. Certainly unsustainable. And,
35:56.697 --> 36:00.931
you know, if you are, you know, a securely attached man that Aaron has described,
36:01.060 --> 36:04.183
you certainly have capacity to help other men.
36:05.024 --> 36:08.229
Otherwise, if you're not Uh, you know, I, from personal experience,
36:08.293 --> 36:11.762
would say it's certainly worth exploring, you know, where some of that
36:12.262 --> 36:15.102
comes from when, you know, you have a little bit more stability or when,
36:15.295 --> 36:17.735
you know, whenever you want to actually make that choice.
36:18.490 --> 36:22.280
Um, starting with the book called Power of Attachment by Diane Heller.
36:22.505 --> 36:26.134
And then, and then, then working, you know, I work with
36:26.634 --> 36:29.907
you, Aaron, and that has certainly brought me a long way in understanding where a
36:30.407 --> 36:33.809
lot of that comes from. Power of Attachment. We'll put that in the show notes.
36:33.922 --> 36:38.445
The Power of Attachment by Diane Heller describes
36:38.509 --> 36:42.227
beautifully, probably better than any other book on attachment,
36:43.260 --> 36:46.612
attachment dynamics, and where they come
36:47.112 --> 36:50.658
from, and what to do about them, and how to understand each
36:51.158 --> 36:55.481
other and each other's relational systems
36:57.197 --> 37:00.652
differently, which goes a long ways. Even understanding, like,
37:00.755 --> 37:04.248
this is where my nervous and attachment system goes when I
37:04.748 --> 37:08.138
perceive abandonment or rejection. And your partner
37:08.638 --> 37:12.541
having understanding of that can go a long ways. Because if
37:12.573 --> 37:16.327
that's where your attachment system goes, if that's where your nervous system
37:16.359 --> 37:19.143
goes when you perceive, you know,
37:19.159 --> 37:22.841
separation, abandonment, rejection, then your partner
37:23.341 --> 37:24.100
understanding that can,
37:26.474 --> 37:30.639
can allow her or them to provide the reassurance
37:31.139 --> 37:35.810
that you need in order to come
37:35.875 --> 37:39.445
back. Yeah, and be seen for one, and then awareness
37:39.945 --> 37:43.288
is a gateway into being seen as well. And I think that
37:43.723 --> 37:47.407
goes a very long way for somebody who not one—
37:47.537 --> 37:51.738
not only understands their own situation but has another in their
37:51.803 --> 37:55.634
proximity, the person they trust the most, the person they rely on the most in
37:55.730 --> 37:57.882
their lives and that they see the most,
37:58.556 --> 38:01.736
to be able to witness them and say, okay, I understand where that comes
38:01.768 --> 38:05.413
from. This is where we can come together. And how do we work together?
38:05.477 --> 38:08.560
This is not a kind of like, this is what you have and you
38:08.656 --> 38:11.931
work with it, and this is what you can. But it's— it comes
38:11.964 --> 38:15.239
down to how do we work on this together, long, longer term. How do we
38:15.739 --> 38:19.077
work on this together? Because in the example we're giving,
38:19.173 --> 38:22.812
let's say I'm a man with a very anxious attachment
38:23.312 --> 38:26.499
system, which means that
38:26.999 --> 38:32.529
I'm also hypersensitive to and hypervigilant to signs
38:32.626 --> 38:35.766
of rejection, abandonment, and separation.
38:36.948 --> 38:38.211
If my partner knows that,
38:40.547 --> 38:43.935
she can offer the reassurance that my—
38:44.274 --> 38:48.147
someone with an anxious attachment system benefits from a lot of reassurance.
38:50.328 --> 38:53.491
So for my partner to say, hey, things are difficult right now.
38:54.406 --> 38:57.312
I feel really overwhelmed by the baby and by,
38:57.618 --> 39:00.411
you know, taking care of the children.
39:01.230 --> 39:04.137
I don't even feel like I'm in my own body, but I need you to
39:04.637 --> 39:07.926
know that I'm not, I'm still here with you. I appreciate you.
39:08.408 --> 39:11.169
I'm not going anywhere. I'm not gonna leave you.
39:12.149 --> 39:16.305
I still love you. That, for someone who's
39:16.498 --> 39:20.348
predominantly stuck in their anxious attachment system, goes a
39:20.893 --> 39:24.743
long, long way. Now, that doesn't mean we want to make them responsible
39:25.243 --> 39:28.416
for soothing our attachment system by always
39:28.432 --> 39:31.961
having to say the right words or always having to provide the reassurance.
39:32.779 --> 39:36.533
But what it means, based on what we're talking about, is that this
39:37.033 --> 39:40.158
is a two-way thing. This is an us thing. And I, as your
39:40.658 --> 39:46.593
partner, if I know that you're prone to feeling rejected
39:47.093 --> 39:50.323
or abandoned, then I can do a lot by
39:50.355 --> 39:53.482
just reassuring you that I love you and I'm here with you and I'm not
39:53.531 --> 39:56.545
going anywhere. Yep. Well,
39:56.609 --> 40:00.015
that's essential. And another essential point that you
40:00.722 --> 40:03.919
touched on, Aaron, is not relying on one person for your
40:04.419 --> 40:08.055
co-regulation. And that really struck a chord with me because I remember when
40:08.183 --> 40:10.926
my son was born, that was at the height of the COVID pandemic. So,
40:11.215 --> 40:15.371
and we actually, I actually couldn't go physically, you know, see any
40:15.387 --> 40:19.398
friends, you know, or participate in team activities that I perhaps
40:19.898 --> 40:23.120
used to be right before COVID And of course, also out of abundance of
40:23.184 --> 40:26.601
caution with the virus spreading
40:26.633 --> 40:30.805
around and not wanting to bring that to a household with an infant. So that
40:31.305 --> 40:34.576
would, I would say like during that time, because we were all
40:35.076 --> 40:38.478
kind of stuck in one environment and it was difficult to come out. There was,
40:38.911 --> 40:42.765
you know, a degree of struggle of being able to not seek
40:43.265 --> 40:47.678
that reliance of, you know, emotional co-regulation with my partner and the quality
40:48.178 --> 40:51.933
time. And yeah, exactly. Um, and so after that
40:52.433 --> 40:55.498
experience, uh, it, um, was a bit of a,
40:55.514 --> 40:59.688
like, an alarm bell for me in, in some ways to look
41:00.188 --> 41:03.442
for those environments. And I think to anyone who's listening who might be in
41:03.538 --> 41:07.309
the space of, um, over-relying on one partner
41:07.809 --> 41:10.581
and one, one person, is to find those avenues,
41:11.336 --> 41:14.512
whether it's, you know, time with— all good— time with, um,
41:15.026 --> 41:18.363
you know, quality time with friends, or getting out and seeking
41:18.395 --> 41:22.197
that elsewhere. And there's plenty of avenues that,
41:22.309 --> 41:26.719
uh, that you can tap into, from volunteering to looking
41:26.881 --> 41:30.928
for opportunities to join team sports, or just there's
41:30.944 --> 41:34.225
plenty of walks in the park sort of thing and meeting—
41:34.274 --> 41:37.994
sometimes even meeting strangers. That could be something that could be a potential source
41:38.590 --> 41:41.635
of finding new friendships, discovering— Go out into the world.
41:41.892 --> 41:45.648
Go out into the world. Exactly. Go out into nature. We've had
41:45.874 --> 41:49.307
several conversations about not only the benefits of being out in nature,
41:49.404 --> 41:52.892
but also you know, finding like-minded people,
41:52.941 --> 41:56.908
like-hearted people who are out there, who are exploring. And what
41:57.408 --> 42:01.036
can be more beautiful than bonding over a shared
42:01.903 --> 42:04.698
view of the beauty that is offered by, you know,
42:04.714 --> 42:08.681
just the nature itself? I know myself during COVID that's where I
42:08.729 --> 42:12.086
found a lot of the regulation spaces, going out
42:12.586 --> 42:14.800
and walking in parks and even walking,
42:15.635 --> 42:17.081
walking by people and, you know,
42:17.097 --> 42:19.746
just kind of locking eyes and knowing that there's still other,
42:20.276 --> 42:23.680
you know, life out there that's kind of outside of the household keeps it fresh.
42:24.242 --> 42:27.678
If you're in a relationship and something feels off, stuck, or just
42:28.178 --> 42:31.821
hard to talk about, this might be for you. We offer something
42:31.933 --> 42:35.177
called a Relationship Insight Session. It's not
42:35.225 --> 42:38.565
traditional couples therapy. It's a one-time online
42:38.661 --> 42:42.338
session for couples where we help you both see what's actually happening
42:42.450 --> 42:46.483
beneath the surface in real time. Most couples leave
42:46.983 --> 42:50.357
with more clarity in one session than months or years of trying to figure it
42:50.389 --> 42:53.230
out on their own. If you're curious,
42:53.359 --> 42:56.877
check out the Relationship Insight Session by clicking on the link in the show notes.
42:58.034 --> 43:01.311
And so I might be— there might be like a week or
43:01.811 --> 43:04.627
2 weeks, let's say, me and my partner haven't been intimate,
43:05.272 --> 43:08.914
or there hasn't been a lot of closeness for whatever reason
43:09.414 --> 43:13.040
or reasons. Could be everything and anything. Just life is crazy, life is busy,
43:13.202 --> 43:15.785
there's lots of kids' stuff going on, whatever.
43:16.995 --> 43:19.804
We're not being as close as I would like, and I have a greater need
43:20.304 --> 43:22.992
for closeness and intimacy and physical touch than my partner.
43:25.941 --> 43:30.534
Now, because I'm inclined to relational
43:31.034 --> 43:34.885
anxiety, I'm very sensitive to what
43:35.385 --> 43:39.629
I perceive as disconnection
43:39.758 --> 43:43.717
or distance or lack of touch. And, and I,
43:44.486 --> 43:46.490
I tend to personalize it.
43:47.933 --> 43:51.699
She doesn't like me anymore. She doesn't want to be close with
43:51.764 --> 43:54.953
me. And so then I start seeing everything she's doing or not doing
43:54.969 --> 43:58.512
through that lens. So I, for example, I'm down in
43:59.012 --> 44:03.064
the basement working on music or something, whatever, doing something in my space
44:03.564 --> 44:06.713
for a couple hours. And then I'm sensing, oh, I want to be close with
44:06.745 --> 44:09.195
my partner. I would love it if we, like,
44:09.990 --> 44:13.397
hugged right now, or had sex right now, or whatever.
44:14.534 --> 44:17.878
And so I'm, like, feeling this. And I've actually been feeling this for weeks,
44:18.024 --> 44:21.561
but I'm not really saying anything. But I'm feeling like,
44:21.593 --> 44:25.202
right now I'm gonna go upstairs and get some of this closeness.
44:25.477 --> 44:28.908
And so I walk upstairs, and there she is working away on
44:28.956 --> 44:32.318
the computer. Absorbed in whatever activity she's doing.
44:33.352 --> 44:36.099
And she doesn't look up and really notice me or acknowledge me.
44:37.575 --> 44:40.721
She's busy. But that's not how I perceive it. I don't perceive it as,
44:40.737 --> 44:44.370
this person's engaged in an activity and they're
44:44.870 --> 44:48.197
busy, and so, you know, they're not really
44:48.697 --> 44:52.347
noticing that I'm here and wanting to have sex. Or wanting— why
44:52.396 --> 44:55.624
would they be thinking that? But that's not how I perceive
44:56.124 --> 44:59.316
it. I perceive it as, she doesn't like me. Oh, she doesn't want to be
44:59.380 --> 45:03.134
close. I haven't even said anything about being close. I've just already
45:03.327 --> 45:06.375
looking through the— this lens, and so
45:06.696 --> 45:10.354
I'm already going into it seeing through that lens.
45:10.947 --> 45:14.043
And the fact that she's not responding to me in the way that I would
45:14.140 --> 45:18.183
want her or like her to is further confirmation that she
45:18.683 --> 45:21.118
doesn't desire me, doesn't want to be with me, doesn't want to be close with
45:21.618 --> 45:25.023
me. So then I approach her with annoyance
45:25.523 --> 45:29.283
or frustration. I try to connect with her through,
45:29.299 --> 45:32.669
like, anger or through my frustration.
45:35.155 --> 45:38.391
She's just doing her work on the computer. She has no sense of any
45:38.891 --> 45:42.178
of this going on internally. But now I've guaranteed we're
45:42.678 --> 45:45.432
not going to be close because now I've come up with this,
45:47.267 --> 45:50.399
seen through this lens. She's not responding to me. That's confirmation
45:50.496 --> 45:53.887
she doesn't like me. Me, and now I'm resentful toward her,
45:55.095 --> 45:57.575
and now the thing I want most is that much further away.
46:01.196 --> 46:08.575
It's like a self— whatever,
46:08.591 --> 46:11.754
it confirms its own story. So yeah,
46:11.819 --> 46:14.874
self-destructive in a way. Self-confirming.
46:16.970 --> 46:20.339
Yourself, whatever. And so when you're talking
46:20.595 --> 46:23.740
about that, Aaron, I'm thinking about, let's, uh, you know,
46:23.820 --> 46:27.687
presumably, um, when you have a
46:27.751 --> 46:32.885
kid and you've consistently had that attachment,
46:33.190 --> 46:37.137
uh, or at least, um, that connection and that attention
46:37.637 --> 46:40.361
and care towards you between you and your partner, between you and your partner,
46:40.827 --> 46:44.263
and then you— and let's say you're in, you know, anxious attachment,
46:44.279 --> 46:47.509
and I'm also, you know, anxious attachment, uh, from, uh,
46:47.814 --> 46:51.719
from, from my experience. But then that
46:52.072 --> 46:55.607
consistency flips from one consistency where you're cared and
46:56.107 --> 46:59.512
nurtured and like you feel like, you know, you feel regulated, to consistently being
46:59.544 --> 47:03.288
not regulated. And so done enough times, I feel like the real
47:04.043 --> 47:07.482
danger in that is not only destructive to the relationship, but also, you know,
47:07.659 --> 47:10.723
the words that you said, like, you know, she doesn't care about me, or that
47:11.223 --> 47:14.524
she doesn't love me, she doesn't like me. And then it turns into me perceiving
47:14.540 --> 47:17.587
that there's a problem with me, and I'm not lovable,
47:17.619 --> 47:20.971
I'm not worthy. And then that just compounds the isolation.
47:21.051 --> 47:24.867
Who becomes responsible for, for soothing that voice then,
47:25.525 --> 47:28.829
in, in that scenario? Who, as you internalize this voice
47:29.329 --> 47:32.565
saying, I'm not lovable, I'm not worthy, um, I'm not desirable,
47:32.982 --> 47:36.288
who does that person you in this case make
47:36.788 --> 47:40.462
responsible for soothing that voice? Your partner. So then you make your
47:40.962 --> 47:44.476
partner responsible for soothing that. Now they're expected to do or
47:44.976 --> 47:49.293
say the right thing in order to soothe your anxious,
47:49.438 --> 47:53.355
oversensitive attachment system. And what do you think that feels
47:53.371 --> 47:57.691
like to the partner who feels responsible for regulating
47:57.723 --> 48:01.404
you through all your difficult, um,
48:01.597 --> 48:05.060
emotions and dysregulation and anxious
48:05.560 --> 48:09.570
states. What do you think it feels like for the partner who feels responsible for
48:10.070 --> 48:13.396
your emotional states? With the partner that doesn't even know what,
48:13.573 --> 48:16.965
what body they're in anymore after giving birth to a child. And okay, so add
48:17.465 --> 48:20.612
that part, add that part on top. I mean, it's— I think it's traumatic personally.
48:21.324 --> 48:24.885
Yeah, it's overwhelming pressure.
48:25.273 --> 48:29.837
Yeah, it's just exactly— it's a flood. It feels like pressure.
48:30.629 --> 48:34.298
And there's nothing less
48:36.296 --> 48:39.911
sexy or conducive to closeness and
48:40.411 --> 48:44.538
intimacy than pressure to
48:44.570 --> 48:49.656
be a certain way, to provide a certain thing, to enter
48:50.156 --> 48:53.726
a certain state of loving or intimacy or
48:54.226 --> 48:58.439
pleasure or whatever. There's no greater killer to
48:58.680 --> 49:02.581
intimacy and closeness than the pressure of needing to
49:02.614 --> 49:05.761
be intimate and close and whatever.
49:06.708 --> 49:09.919
And so when one partner feels responsible for the other
49:10.419 --> 49:13.612
partner's emotional states, and they feel the pressure of that,
49:14.014 --> 49:17.675
then it just creates more and more and more distance. And to add
49:17.707 --> 49:22.472
something to this, This is maybe most
49:22.585 --> 49:26.098
common in relationships. The most common dynamic is,
49:27.269 --> 49:31.119
aside from 2 people who are secure in relationship,
49:31.809 --> 49:35.306
the most common dynamic is a partner who is prone
49:35.354 --> 49:38.627
to anxious attachment, has an anxious
49:39.127 --> 49:42.284
adaptation, and a partner who has an avoidant adaptation.
49:43.455 --> 49:45.749
That's the most common dynamic that comes together.
49:47.280 --> 49:50.923
Like probably 80% of couples. Arbitrary number, but like most
49:51.423 --> 49:56.048
couples are that. Like not many couples have 2 avoidants because
49:56.064 --> 50:00.027
there's no glue to keep them together. Yeah, right. There's— they both
50:00.060 --> 50:03.651
will just go off on their own. So the anxious one seeks,
50:03.845 --> 50:07.071
um, basically seeks
50:07.152 --> 50:10.120
that partner to be responsible for their regulation,
50:10.378 --> 50:13.941
and the avoidant one will shut down. Totally. So it's the worst dance to get
50:14.441 --> 50:18.174
into. It's the most common dance that we see with people, is the anxious person
50:19.393 --> 50:22.584
is hypersensitive already to potential rejection,
50:22.856 --> 50:26.624
distance, disconnect, abandonment, and then they perceive it
50:26.688 --> 50:30.200
everywhere. Everything is a confirmation that they're being— especially
50:30.232 --> 50:33.984
when they're activated, everything is a confirmation that they're being rejected,
50:34.000 --> 50:38.073
abandoned, whatever. And so they make their partner responsible
50:38.573 --> 50:42.376
for saying or doing the right thing to soothe them. And the partner,
50:42.809 --> 50:46.231
the avoidant one, feels that as pressure. And they're already prone
50:46.584 --> 50:50.343
to feeling pressure from relationship. That's part of their avoidant
50:50.375 --> 50:54.182
adaptation. The more pressure they feel, the more
50:54.455 --> 50:58.695
they avoid, the more their system shuts down and wants to depressurize.
50:58.888 --> 51:02.486
And the way that the avoidant depressurizes is by getting away.
51:02.823 --> 51:06.019
Yeah. And the more that the avoidant one turns off and wants
51:06.519 --> 51:09.630
to get away and push away and create distance, the more the
51:09.646 --> 51:13.161
anxious one feels that, and the more they— more
51:13.661 --> 51:17.029
anxious they become. And the more anxious they become, the more
51:17.529 --> 51:21.010
the avoidant one shuts down and turns away and tries to depressurize.
51:21.106 --> 51:23.498
And the more that they do that, the more anxious the other one becomes.
51:23.658 --> 51:26.980
Yeah. And then there's just this— obviously it's
51:27.480 --> 51:30.126
just a vicious circle of that. So feedback loop.
51:30.819 --> 51:34.742
We definitely want to be very aware that
51:35.115 --> 51:38.664
we are not making our partner responsible for soothing
51:39.166 --> 51:43.601
our different emotional states, and that we learn
51:45.090 --> 51:47.404
and practice tools of self-regulation.
51:49.576 --> 51:53.662
And part of that is connecting
51:54.418 --> 51:57.934
outside, getting outside the relationship, having other
51:58.434 --> 52:02.076
people as well. But, but part of that is also learning to soothe ourselves
52:02.189 --> 52:07.311
when we feel activated, when we feel that anxious wound
52:07.811 --> 52:11.550
on high alert. We have to learn how to soothe ourselves
52:11.662 --> 52:14.520
because for the one with the anxious adaptation,
52:15.034 --> 52:18.631
that's the thing that they lack the most is the capacity
52:19.131 --> 52:22.083
to self-regulate because they didn't learn that.
52:22.886 --> 52:26.402
Because they didn't have caregivers who were reliable,
52:26.579 --> 52:29.694
resilient, responsive co-regulators.
52:31.010 --> 52:35.699
And that's how we learn to self-regulate, is through co-regulation
52:35.907 --> 52:40.307
in those earlier years. That's how we learn. That's how we develop the capacity and
52:40.339 --> 52:43.743
understanding to self-regulate, is by being attuned to by others.
52:44.080 --> 52:47.034
Yep. That informs these things in our adulthood. Totally.
52:47.725 --> 52:51.806
So we didn't develop that. We didn't learn that. And for
52:52.306 --> 52:56.048
the one with the anxious system, that's the thing that's most needed,
52:56.803 --> 53:00.666
so that we're not making our partner responsible for soothing us.
53:00.730 --> 53:04.643
Now, the avoidant one has the other problem,
53:04.900 --> 53:10.374
if we want to call it that, is that they only
53:10.390 --> 53:14.375
rely on self-regulation. Whether it's healthy self-regulation
53:14.488 --> 53:18.620
or unhealthy ways of self-regulating, but they don't rely on others to to regulate
53:19.120 --> 53:22.387
through difficult stuff. They learned that they're the only ones that they can rely on
53:22.419 --> 53:25.929
to move through any one experience.
53:27.620 --> 53:32.233
So they benefit from reaching out to co-regulate,
53:33.491 --> 53:37.490
whereas the anxious one benefits, at least in the short term, from developing
53:37.845 --> 53:41.796
the ability to take responsibility for what I'm feeling and,
53:42.184 --> 53:45.002
and attend to myself. Self.
53:45.180 --> 53:48.641
That doesn't mean we don't ever reach out to co-regulate.
53:48.737 --> 53:51.989
That doesn't mean we shut that off completely and now we don't reach out to
53:52.021 --> 53:55.741
our partner for closeness or for a hug
53:55.757 --> 53:58.575
or to be held. Or we still want that,
54:00.534 --> 54:04.898
but that's one path, that's one option, that's one choice of a secure system.
54:05.140 --> 54:08.856
A secure system has more choices. Yeah, I can choose to reach out
54:09.356 --> 54:13.102
and co-regulate, But I also have the ability to take care of myself and move
54:13.118 --> 54:16.441
through this. Or I have the choice to reach out to my friend
54:16.941 --> 54:20.744
and connect, or there's other people I love, or I can go to
54:21.244 --> 54:25.272
yoga and I know I'll feel great after. Whatever. I have more choices when I'm
54:25.772 --> 54:29.126
in the secure part of my system. For sure. But when I'm in the anxious
54:29.626 --> 54:33.027
or avoidant part, I lack choice. It's a well-worn groove.
54:34.167 --> 54:38.085
To the anxious one, it's secure the closeness at
54:38.585 --> 54:42.276
all costs. Yeah. For the avoidant one, it's depressurizing, get the fuck
54:42.776 --> 54:45.744
away. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Lack of choice there. Yeah.
54:46.033 --> 54:49.437
Hmm. It's interesting. I can think about like how that,
54:49.485 --> 54:53.274
uh, you know, has shown up in even in my relationship with my
54:53.774 --> 54:57.513
partner. Give us an example. Um, what's a good
54:58.013 --> 54:59.071
example? Um,
55:01.383 --> 55:05.381
Well, I mean, I'll, I'll give an example where, you know, I want closeness and
55:05.881 --> 55:09.845
I want to go out and do something, right? And, and my partner perhaps is,
55:10.054 --> 55:13.425
uh, not, not in the same mind space. And the more I push for
55:13.925 --> 55:17.279
it, the, you know, as opposed to perhaps like planting the seed,
55:17.295 --> 55:20.876
leaving it, and then seeing kind of where it goes. And, um, like, because I
55:20.892 --> 55:23.525
wanted certainty, I want to make sure that, like, you know,
55:23.959 --> 55:27.218
if I show initiative, then it's, then it's met and reciprocated and
55:27.718 --> 55:30.701
that it's, uh, well received. And, uh,
55:30.909 --> 55:34.569
and we're working on, you know, ourselves. It sounds very anxious.
55:34.713 --> 55:38.292
It sounds— yeah, right, need certainty. Like, for sure,
55:38.373 --> 55:41.887
with, with the intention not, hey, like, this is how we grow as a couple,
55:41.904 --> 55:45.451
right? So the intention is right. The approach is like one of like,
55:45.756 --> 55:48.564
give me security now, you know, let's, let's do this or this or this or
55:49.064 --> 55:51.293
this, just, just choose one, right? And so we can, we can land on it
55:51.793 --> 55:54.830
now and we can schedule it whatnot, right? So, uh, without kind of really respecting
55:54.862 --> 55:57.662
the boundaries of, you know, of my partner. And then what does she do when
55:57.921 --> 56:01.142
you're doing that? Uh, shut down. She shuts down?
56:01.400 --> 56:03.888
Yeah, it's usually her heels in.
56:05.277 --> 56:09.170
Yeah, doesn't either— doesn't respond. Like, there could be a silent treatment, or there
56:09.670 --> 56:12.966
could be just— sometimes it's easily
56:13.466 --> 56:15.599
physically removing, uh, herself from the situation.
56:17.404 --> 56:20.969
And this is like, you know, where we've come from essentially And I feel like
56:21.547 --> 56:25.160
by understanding my own attachment— I call
56:25.660 --> 56:29.319
it style or attribute, whatever— it, um, it helps me
56:29.819 --> 56:33.991
at least inform when I start to have those feelings of anxiety
56:34.491 --> 56:37.443
and the need for certainty, that I can say, ah, that is the attachment style
56:37.943 --> 56:41.666
that's driving me into this, you know, preconditioned,
56:41.698 --> 56:45.921
predetermined pattern of behaviors. And being
56:46.018 --> 56:49.791
in that moment, it immediately helps me at least pause and say, okay,
56:49.807 --> 56:53.436
like, what do I need to do here? Because I know that if I follow
56:53.936 --> 56:56.230
that path and follow that lead, it's going to lead me down this, uh,
56:56.631 --> 56:59.890
probably a less healthy route and probably not going to result in
57:00.404 --> 57:03.712
what I'm trying to achieve. And again, the intention can be good.
57:04.322 --> 57:08.160
Um, and so the intention is almost always good. Yeah, absolutely. It's always
57:08.192 --> 57:11.210
pure. It almost always comes from a place of again,
57:11.708 --> 57:15.159
wanting closeness, wanting attune— to
57:15.175 --> 57:18.834
attune to the other. Like, there's almost always
57:19.508 --> 57:23.296
good intentions. And so maybe that instead of a statement, it turns into a question.
57:23.344 --> 57:25.350
Hey honey, how would you like to go on a date with me? You know,
57:25.366 --> 57:28.592
we haven't been on a date for a while, and I remember before we
57:29.092 --> 57:31.658
had kids, we used to always love to go to the movies or just go
57:32.158 --> 57:36.007
to the shopping mall and roam around and explore and be spontaneous,
57:36.104 --> 57:39.538
right? I think that's spontaneity is a, is a huge part
57:39.635 --> 57:42.941
of, you know, of relationships in the couple. But the, I guess, the approach
57:43.441 --> 57:46.038
and more inquiry versus, you know, advocacy.
57:47.194 --> 57:50.211
How about even let me reframe it even further? Let me fine-tune.
57:50.789 --> 57:55.668
Let's do it. Your statement with her, or your invitation,
57:55.780 --> 57:59.568
from how would you like to, or do you want to
57:59.937 --> 58:03.650
go out on a date with me, to I want to spend some
58:04.150 --> 58:07.693
time with you. I want to take you out to a movie or
58:08.193 --> 58:12.005
to dinner or whatever. I want to do this thing. I want
58:12.505 --> 58:15.497
closeness. Are you available for it?
58:16.775 --> 58:19.458
Ah, stating my needs. Okay. Yeah.
58:19.539 --> 58:22.605
Rather than would you— you put it on her when you did that. Yeah.
58:22.767 --> 58:25.913
Would you like to go out, uh, on a date like we used to?
58:26.155 --> 58:29.382
Yeah. A movie. It's important to me. No, I want to go out
58:29.970 --> 58:33.220
I want to be close tonight. Are you
58:33.720 --> 58:36.230
available for that? Would you like to do that with me?
58:37.660 --> 58:41.300
Yeah, I'll give that a try. It's different because it's what I want. It's more
58:41.800 --> 58:44.820
subjective though, right? When you put it on yourself, it's, it's,
58:45.320 --> 58:47.520
it's, it's still, it's still on you in a sense, right? Like, I need this,
58:48.020 --> 58:50.480
and you clearly communicate your needs. It's not her wanting to go, and she might
58:50.980 --> 58:53.500
want to go to a movie, but she's not starting this.
58:53.690 --> 58:57.021
She's— I catch myself with Alyssa doing this all the time. I'm like,
58:58.452 --> 59:02.617
do you want to, uh, hold each other right now? Like, that's not
59:03.117 --> 59:05.914
actually what I'm asking. What I'm actually saying is, I want to hold you right
59:05.930 --> 59:09.041
now. Will you allow me to hold
59:09.541 --> 59:12.158
you? Instead, I say, do you want to hold right now? Do you want to
59:12.174 --> 59:14.803
go hold? Do you want to go hug? Whatever. Do you want to kiss right—
59:15.403 --> 59:18.324
you want to have a kiss? No, what I'm actually saying is, I want to
59:18.824 --> 59:22.350
kiss you. Will you allow me to kiss you, or will you kiss
59:22.850 --> 59:26.048
me or whatever. But I often even still catch myself like, do you
59:26.081 --> 59:29.820
want to do this thing that I want to do? Rather than, I want
59:30.320 --> 59:32.934
to do this thing. I love that. Yeah. Will you join me?
59:34.564 --> 59:38.340
Yeah. Big, like, totally different question
59:38.681 --> 59:40.528
and absolutely invitation.