What If Behaviour Makes Perfect Sense? with Sarah Naish

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Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.
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Well, hello, and welcome back to another episode of Trauma Informed Conversations.
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Today's topic is a bit of a big question.
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It's what if behaviour makes perfect sense?
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So we're really going to be exploring a question that actually has the power to change how children, families, um, even behaviour, and perhaps even ourselves can end up being sometimes, you know, misinterpreted due to, you know, actually kind of our own biases as human beings and also the kind of complexity of the work that we do.
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And I could think of no better person to join me um to talk about what if behaviour makes perfect sense than the wonderful Sarah Naish.
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Sarah, hi.
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Hi, hi Jessica.
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Lovely to be here.
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Oh, great to have you.
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I wonder whether you might want to just sort of share with our listeners just a little bit about yourself.
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I mean, I've been inspired by your work for many years, um, but there might be listeners out there who haven't had the pleasure of kind of stumbling across the wonderful work that you do.
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Um, yeah, so um I started off fostering, first of all, um over 40 years ago, I think now, and then I became a social worker, and then I adopted five children who are all siblings.
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And um from that I realized that I didn't know anything really.
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I I thought I knew all about children, but my children taught me everything I know.
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I always think that.
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So um, so I then made it my mission really to bring what my children had taught me about trauma into social work, social care, and education.
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And that's really what I've been doing for the last couple of decades.
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And um, now I run two trauma-informed fostering uh in England and Wales.
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Oh, awesome! I mean, I'm definitely the new kid on the block compared to you, literally just been going around like you know, maybe a decade now.
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So absolutely incredible to kind of be surrounded in your expertise today, Sarah.
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The thing that you know really strikes me about your work is that it's not just expertise, you know, it's almost that, you know, there's been you know a significant shift maybe then in terms of how you've come to understand children because I'm guessing that you didn't discover the perfect caring guide that sadly doesn't exist.
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So has it kind of like evolved throughout your career, would you say, in terms of how you really started to kind of unpick behaviors?
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Yeah, I mean, I think the steep learning curve was definitely looking at how my children communicated through their behaviour.
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So that's what made me realize that my thinking had had not been correct up until then.
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Um, you know, I was very traditional, I was kind of super nanny and reward charts and timeout and all that sort of stuff.
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And then when my children came to me, uh, they were aged seven months, two and three, and then their older sisters, age six and seven, joined me.
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Yeah.
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And what I've realized is that their behavior does make perfect sense when you look at it through a trauma lens.
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That's interesting.
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And maybe for those who aren't sure what we mean by trauma lens, yeah, how do we do that?
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What does that actually mean?
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Well, it means is that we have to look behind the behaviour.
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So I always think about it like you know, a child comes up to you or they're they're behaving in a certain way.
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We can either take that at face value and say they're doing this, and quite often we misinterpret that to they're doing this to me.
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And actually, that that isn't what's happening.
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Um, the child is simply expressing uh an unmet need normally.
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Um so uh so so what what I tend to think about with therapeutic parenting or trauma-informed parenting is I look at what the child is doing.
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I kind of take a bit of a step back, take a bit of a pause, and I look at that and I go, what is that behaviour saying?
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What what is what is that actually trying to communicate?
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I don't really take much as what the child's saying, because often they're unaware of what they're saying.
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I'm looking at what the behaviour is doing.
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Yeah, I think that do you know that's really really important, and I guess as well, is that what has then sort of informed some of the books that you've written as well, like actually aimed at the children, would you say?
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Almost like a way of kind of also helping them to understand themselves, or did that kind of come from a different point, do you think?
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Um I think that all trauma-based behaviors are all about the child communicating their inner distress, and I think that a mistake that people often make is that they think the child thinks it all through, that they're kind of going off and thinking, Oh, I know what I'll do, I'll do this.
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This will really annoy mum, or this this will show them.
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Yeah, uh, but actually that that isn't what's happening at all.
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So I'll give you an example.
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Um our children's internal working model, where there's been trauma, says, I'm not good enough, I don't deserve nice things.
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So one of my books I did quite early on, 10 years ago, Sophie's Sophie's spiking, the very big problem, they're all real stories.
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It was about the time when I bought my daughter new shoes because her old shoes literally she, you know, the sole came off, like you know, obviously they picked them off.
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Yeah, of course, yeah.
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And and I gave her the new shoes and they fitted and everything.
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And then when we went out, I realized she'd got her old shoes out of the bin and put them on.
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Now, if you're looking at that in a non-trauma-informed way, you might think, why did they do that to me?
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They did that to make me look bad.
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Yeah, um, you know, what what is wrong with them?
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Uh, I'm I'm I'm gonna be embarrassed about this, especially if the child's gone to school in that.
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But when you look at it in a trauma-informed way, you say, Oh, okay, there's something not fitting here, it's not literally the shoes.
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Child doesn't feel they're good enough and they deserve these the nice shoes.
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I know they fit.
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So, what I'm gonna do, instead of saying to her, why did you put those old shoes on when you know we never ask the children why, they don't know why.
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Uh, I'm gonna say, Oh, I've noticed that you have put your old shoe on and there's no sole on the bottom of that.
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Your foot must be a bit wet.
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Let's go and have a you know, little hot chocolate reverie around.
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And then I'm gonna explain to her that the reason this happened is because she feels like she doesn't deserve nice things.
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But I've decided yeah, she does deserve nice things.
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Now she might say, no, no, it's not that because she doesn't know that, but actually what she behaviour that changes, yeah.
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Yeah, it really is, and I think that's such a common belief, isn't it, held by so many care experienced children?
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I mean, I think you know, if we were to maybe give some guidance for maybe perhaps those who might be foster or kinship carers who are listening, or indeed those that might be supporting them, I think we'd definitely be really thinking there about that relational moment of maybe going to get the hot chocolate, helping the things soap, exploring together.
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I mean, would there be any other practical tips like that?
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Maybe where as the adult we're thinking, oh goodness, they're doing this to spite me or to make my life difficult, how we can get that together?
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Yeah.
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I mean, so for example, you know, it's common for our children to uh say things that are very hurtful.
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They might say, um, I hate you, you're not my real mum, you don't love me, that kind of thing.
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But really, that's just a discharge of their own pain.
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And we make the mistake of saying, Oh, how can you say that to me?
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You know, and take it personally.
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And it's really useful to remember they're not doing it to you, they're just doing it.
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They would do this wherever they are.
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So we respond to the hurt in the child.
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So I would say, Wow, it must be really difficult to feel that way about someone who loves you so much.
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There's not a lot that can be said about that, and often our children then become quite upset or sad rather than angry, because what we're really doing is we're recognising that this anger comes from pain and we're recognising the pain.
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Yeah, I think that's super powerful.
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Without identifying anybody, and again, it might be that we want to refer back to, you know, your your lovely example of the child with the shoe, and you know, that that beautiful situation that you've so kindly gifted us.
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You know, has there been another child who absolutely completely changed the way that you kind of viewed behaviour, would you say?
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You know, what what kind of happened in that moment?
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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I've got a few examples of that.
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Oh, good.
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Um, but I'll start with the one that was the most powerful, that made the most impact on me and really changed my whole mindset about it.
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So this was and and and I can uh say who it is because it's it's in my books and and I have permissions.
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All my children are over 21.
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So it's with my son when he was 15, and we know 15 is a very difficult age because of all the brain changes.
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And you know, we well, I've been around the block a few times, but there were behaviors coming that I just could not work out.
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So he started stealing things, burglaring, burglaring neighbors, breaking into the usually the mum's bedroom, taking stuff there.
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And I did all the usual standard stuff.
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I tried talking to him about his behaviour, which is pointless.
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I tried getting him to go around and apologise, which again is just putting him in the shame pit.
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Exactly.
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And I was I was really struggling, you know.
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So this went on for six months, and I was really trying everything, and then one day, and he used to cause a lot of damage when he uh stole things, you know.
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So I I had this like steel reinforced bedroom door.
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So he one day he climbed up the balcony, Jimmy'd open the patio doors and balcony doors, so he caused£700 worth of damage and stole.
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Oh no.
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So so this day I remember I was sitting there and I was waiting for him to come home because he'd always be like, you know, go missing for a little while afterwards.
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And I knew there was no point saying, Why did you take it or how dare you?
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Or I I knew we we'd gone all around that.
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So when he came in, sort of shuffling in and not making eye contact, yeah, I asked a different question.
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This was only luck, really.
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And I said to him, What were you looking for?
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Because it felt to me like he had to get into that room, he had to get in there, and you know, it's always around my bedroom and my friends, like mother's bedrooms.
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And he looked at me, like made eye contact, which was rare, and I just suddenly all just clicked into place.
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And I just thought, he's looking for me, he's looking for nurture.
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It's when I'm not here, I go out, and I and I suddenly thought, yeah, that is what's going on.
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And so I thought, well, I need to tell him because he doesn't know that.
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You know, we often assume our children know, but they don't know.
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I call it naming the need.
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So I said to him, obviously, he he knew all his history.
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I said to him, Look, you know, when you were a little boy, you lived in a place where, as you know, where you mum wasn't there, like nobody came, you were alone a lot of the time.
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And I think what's happening here is when I go out, little uh William inside is really scared and telling Big William, Well, we've got a fine mum, you know, we've got a and I think that then your kind your arms are breaking into the room because it's not his head doing it, and that's how we used to describe it.
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Uh your arms breaking in, and yeah, and I said, So I'm really sorry, I haven't got, I've only just understood that.
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Now he was absolutely on a route to youth offending, uh, court convictions pending, you know.
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I he was gonna, I think he was gonna end up young offenders.
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So what I said to him was, um, okay, I know you're looking for me.
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So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna leave my bedroom unlocked.
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If I'm not here and you don't know where I am, I'm always gonna tell you where I am.
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If you're worried, you can go in my bedroom, you just lie on my bed, just wait for me to come home.
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I'm also gonna put an app on your phone that shows you where I am.
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Oh, clever.
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Also, like I could see where he was, so that was well that's comfortable, yeah.
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And the stealing and burglary stopped immediately.
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I mean, immediately.
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There was never another incident because what we did there was he met his unmet need.
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His unmet need was for mummy nurture.
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Where's my mum?
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You know, the frightened little boy that had been abandoned and spent hours or days alone, desperately worried for mum to come back and feed him.
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That need was met.
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He could see where I was, his anxiety didn't come up, he didn't need to break in anywhere any anymore.
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So that made me realise the power of Sarah Dylan calls it the gift, my friend calls it, the gift of why, naming the need, telling the child why they are behaving the way they do.
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It changes everything.
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Oh gosh, and I think you know, stories like that are so powerful because it really reminds us, doesn't it, that behavior it rarely exists in isolation.
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You know, it wasn't that he wanted to steal, or you know, those things weren't choices, were they?
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You know, as you've said, they were coming from that kind of deep need.
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And ultimately, you know, as human beings, we've evolved to know what we need.
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But the problem is sometimes, you know, we will grab those things in any way that we can, and so they might not always be the safest behaviours or the behaviors that we necessarily want for our young people, right?
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Yeah, that's right, exactly.
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So, and that was the pattern of behavior I was seeing there.
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And, you know, when our children are indulging in risk-taking behaviours, that's about you know touching the chaos, touching the edges of what's safe, and just like two-year-olds do, you know, they'll they'll test the edges and then we bring them back in.
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Well, if you've never gone through that developmental stage where your whole life has been unsafe, you've got to go through it at some stage.
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But then when their children are doing it when they're 12, 13, we say we label them, we say, oh, they're you know, they're they're risky, oh, they're this, oh that, you know, uh they're sexually aggressive.
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You know, and often you you would think, well, he's actually doing what a two-year-old would do, but he hasn't done it yet.
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Exactly, because he hasn't been given the learning opportunities yet.
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You know, we're not born knowing that stuff, are we?
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You know, we don't come out of the womb like, oh, actually, I'm all sorted for life, you know.
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And so, due to a range of different circumstances, we know, don't we, that not every child at that age will have had, you know, perhaps those learning opportunities, you know, they may not have met those horrible phrases and it developmental milestones, not due to who they are, but due to what the circumstances have kind of determined, perhaps.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, and actually, you know, one of my biggest learning curves was that when my children came to me, I thought, as a former foster parent and social worker, that there would be gaps I'd have to fill.
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That's what we all think.
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Well, that's right, but what I hadn't realized is actually it's much, much more than not meeting developed milestones because there's unhelpful interactions that have gone in, you know, where children have been abused and neglected and terrified, which most of our children coming in the care system have been.
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Yes, yes, we've got uh not just a lack of stuff, but positive, sorry, negative enforcement of dangerous stuff, and that is what is so difficult to that's what takes the time to undo.
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We're not just building on nothing, we're undoing and repairing and then trying to build.
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Yeah, we really are.
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I you know, it's an anal an analogy that I often use in you know, a lot of my training where I talk almost about trust being a bit like a bank balance, and actually we're in debt, you know.
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So, actually, how are we gonna kind of get back to zero?
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You know, how do we kind of create those, you know, sort of opportunities to kind of feel like you said, you know, with with your son, that love, that nurture, to kind of meet those needs first and then start to kind of think about how are we reshaping this child's brain and letting them know that actually there are safe interactions that are possible with adults.
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You know, there is going to be a point in their life where hopefully, you know, they will feel that there's hope, they will feel um actually that they're able to achieve all the brilliant things that they've dreamt of.
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It just takes time and patience, doesn't it?
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Well, and and it's 10 years of patience.
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I think I think sometimes people think there's gonna be, you know, I mean, you know, I I've got some great social workers I work with and and know, but there are also social workers and teachers who don't get this stuff at all, and expect there to be quicker results, you know.
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Oh, the child, I mean it was definitely said to me, and I'm sure it's been said to a lot of you, this is oh, well, the children have been with you six months now, you'd think that they would be over it.
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Um but he looked so normal.
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I mean, all of this expectation that um everything should be okay, and if it's not okay, it's probably your fault.
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No, and going back to the title of today, doesn't that not make perfect sense when you know imagine being a child who you know has been living in some horrendous circumstances for a couple of years?
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How would it ever take six months to unravel that?
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Yeah, it's it's I always say it's 10 years.
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I mean, it's not to say you won't make progress, but you get the big stuff like the empathy, the remorse, uh, the big stuff starts happening.
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You know, you've got to put those building blocks in in order to start changing the landscape, and you you do it every day, you do it every day through therapeutic parenting.
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And I think one of our biggest challenges is when we know we're doing the right thing.
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You've probably read my books and books both and they and you know it spells it out really clearly, and and this stuff works, it's not just my children, it's the hundreds of children I've worked with over the years, and we know that this works.
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So, one of the problems we have is where you've got a foster parent who's really trauma-informed, and this has happened, you know, in my fostering teams, we see it.
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Now, our social workers are really trauma-informed, they get it.
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So, if they've got a foster parent that puts the child in their lovely, shiny new jumper to go to school, but then the child takes that jumper off on the way to school sometimes and puts that old holy one on from their bag, they get to school.
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And if you've got a teacher who's not trauma informed or a TA and a social who's not trauma-informed, these conversations go, oh well, you know, little Johnny he came to school today and he looked very neglected.
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And it's triggering because the adults care about the child and that, oh, this is very concerning.
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Before you know it, the foster parent or a doctor is in a situation where they're defending themselves and saying, no, no, we we've got the shiny jumper.
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Here it is, they chose not to wear it.
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If you're not trauma-informed, you don't really believe that because the only mindset you've got is children like new clothes.
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You don't have another narrative.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:20:11.039
So when I say when you've got teachers, social workers, offset inspectors who aren't trauma-informed, you can be doing the best trauma-informed work of your life and know that you are having breakthrough after breakthrough with this child, and somebody can come along and pour cold water on it and not only make you feel very dispirited, but actually cause damage to your child's progress.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.279
And we see that it's the most, I mean, we have got a lot of change.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:23.839
We do do a lot of work with schools, we do do a lot of work with social workers, but I think that until we get offstead trauma-informed, it's got to come top down, really.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:31.119
You and I both, and you know, can I just say the amount of schools, and don't get me wrong, there's incredible work going on in schools.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:32.000
We both know that.
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.880
We know it's a really, really, really hard job.
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:50.799
Same with being a social worker, but honestly, the amount of schools that I go in, and you know, we start talking about restorative practice, we start talking about how every single behavior, you know, whether a child's trauma experienced or not, there's always a need that they're trying to meet.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.480
And it's kind of like I'm speaking in another language sometimes.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:15.279
So, I mean, I wonder what what you think it's going to take in order for the rest of kind of society to sort of almost really listen to, you know, what our little bubble kind of teaches us, you know, in terms of you know, that actually children and young people I don't believe are inherently bad for a second.
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:22.640
But you know, how do we almost get to that way of inquiring about what need is maybe being missed here?
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:33.680
The we're always going to have people who won't change, we're always gonna have people who hang on to outdated practice methods for grim death.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:35.759
You know, they hold on to it and they defend themselves.
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.839
We found the best way, uh, I mean, there that there has been breakthroughs.
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.759
Since I did the AT therapeutic parenting, I have been pushing an open door.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:51.440
Before that, I was knocking at the door, and I every speech I was doing, every keynote I did, I was having to kind of justify everything.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.119
That doesn't happen anymore.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:22:05.119
I go and I talk, and people kind of take it as red that the HZ is true and this works, and and you often have a Lot of people in the room who are actively practicing therapeutic parenting and trauma-informed practice.
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:08.400
So there's been a big shift which is helpful.
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:19.680
But when we come up against, say we've got uh yeah, I'll give you a real example with no identifying uh a foster parent has a child, comes into us.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:30.319
We've got absolutely brilliant trauma-informed therapeutic foster parents, and the local authority social worker who's not trauma-informed says this child's got to stay, it's their own school.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:40.559
We say, and the foster parent says, this is a very bad idea because that school is very triggering for the child because that's where birth mum lives, like two doors along.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.519
That's where a lot of the abuse has happened nearby.
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:47.759
So we think, no, no, no, uh, it's a safe place for the child.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:53.119
Well, it's not a safe place because dangerous, frightening birth mum lives two doors along.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.160
So, anyway, this social worker wouldn't move.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.519
And of course, what we saw is a deterioration in behaviour.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.039
So, what we do is we use it as an education point.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:13.519
So, our attachment therapist, Sarah Dylan, will you know call a therapeutic meeting and explain really clearly, and we stop using words like dysregulated.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:20.640
So, you know, the if the foster parent is writing or the school's writing and saying, or the child's dysregulated, so say what you mean.
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.079
We don't talk about that.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.799
The child is terrified, the child is angry, the child is fearful.
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.559
So once we did that, and people start seeing that actually, do you know what?
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:36.400
It's just child, he's not dysregulated and naughty, he's terrified.
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.480
Oh, why is he terrified?
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.240
Well, let's try him out at a farm school in the holidays, for example.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:45.519
All the behaviours have gone away.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:54.960
Now, to their credit, this very stuck social worker who's not trauma-informed, saw that, took it on board, realized, and changed her practice.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:01.839
That's the best way to change someone's practice, to show them how it works and how much better it is for the child.
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:09.839
Unfortunately, you will still get people who think it's more important that they are right than it is for the child to be okay.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:16.640
And we come up against those people too frequently, more frequently than I would like.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:24.720
But yeah, I think that it's important you've got someone in your corner who's a social worker, a therapist, an advocate who is trauma-informed.
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:30.640
So it's not just you in the meeting saying, No, honestly, I promise this is what's going on.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.559
It really helps to have people with you.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:33.200
It does.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:34.640
It really, really does.
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:43.839
I imagine, because I'm certainly having uh these thoughts myself, that our listeners might almost be imagining maybe children that they've worked with in any way.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:48.079
So we might have carers listening, as I said, social workers, teachers, you know, whoever you are.
00:24:48.319 --> 00:25:01.039
And you know, they might be thinking about maybe some children that they've worked with whose behaviour feels maybe confusing, frustrating, exhausting, and then almost kind of imagining how they were then treated as the adult.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:13.680
I mean, do you have any advice or guidance as to, you know, how to sort of approach that when you've then got other professionals telling you, you know, that they almost know what's right for the child that they don't know as well as you.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.519
Yeah, it's do you know what?
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:19.680
You can use trauma-informed practice and therapeutic parenting everywhere with everybody.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:31.839
Um, so I've recently been saying to my staff team and my foster parents, look, our model uses curiosity, empathy, yeah, and accountability.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.000
It doesn't use blame and judgment.
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:45.920
So when you've got, say, an allegation, we know that over half allegations are false or unsubstantiated, you don't go in with a, I can't believe you did this to the child attitude, which we know some people do.
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.240
We say, tell me what happened.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:49.680
Tell me what happened.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.680
This must be really difficult for you.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:26:04.559
The thing is, if someone has abused a child or overset the market down, they're much more likely to tell you and be honest about it if you're alongside them and curious and empathic than if you go in going, I can't believe that you did this.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:12.079
And then accountability, you know, it's like so, okay, we we need to see what we're going to do about this because obviously this is not okay.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.160
If nothing's happened, it's about making sure that people are aware that nothing happened.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:26.880
And we explain to people about you know how children from trauma their memories get mixed up, they can experience uh what's happening now as you know, what happened a long time ago as if it's happening now.
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:31.039
Uh, many, many allegations are actually disclosures, we know that.
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:36.799
So it's about like taking all that on board and then just saying, well, you know, what's really going on here?
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:38.880
And you can do that with everybody.
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:50.480
So what in my staff team or people I work with, if I've got a member of staff who starts behaving in a way that's not great, and I've got people saying, Oh, you know, she's really black.
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.519
I can't believe that you know, she did this and she said that.
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.960
And I think I just apply therapeutic parent principles and I say things like, Oh, that's interesting.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.960
Um, was there a time when this person was okay?
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.359
Well, yes, she was absolutely fine.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:07.359
Well, what changed around that time?
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:08.720
Oh, her mother died.
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:09.920
Oh, right, okay.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.319
So, you know, let's let's look at this.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:14.079
There's always a reason.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.039
I always think behavior makes perfect sense, actually.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:18.559
I think it does.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:32.480
The only time it might not is if you've got a pretty serious mental health condition, like schizophrenia, uh, psychopathy, you know, that that even then psychopathy, you you can't well, it's because they're a psychopath because they have no empathy.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:37.920
Yeah, but I think that our children's traumatic behaviour makes perfect sense.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:38.799
It does.
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.000
It absolutely does.
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:51.759
You know, how can it, you know, be possible that somebody could have experienced something of such great magnitude at potentially such a young age and just not survived?
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:52.799
Yeah, exactly.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:28:06.720
You know, I think in a way we'd almost be more concerned, you know, about maybe denial, repression, you know, those sorts of things than actually if they are trying to process that in the only way that they know how.
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:07.440
Yeah.
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.680
Well, when people say to me things like, Oh, this child's fine, or you know, the worst thing we get, isn't it?
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:15.519
Well, you know, she's fine at school.
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:16.079
Oh no.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:22.319
So when they said that to me, they said, Oh, my son was fine at school, I said, Oh dear, what a shame for you.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:23.680
And they're like, What do you mean?
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:28.319
And I said, Well, it means he's masking and he doesn't feel safe enough to show you his true self.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:33.119
So I'm glad that I get the true child at home because I can manage that and change things.
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:35.599
I said, But he's terrible when he's shut down.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:37.680
This is not a good thing, you know.
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:39.519
So it's not, it's really not.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:42.000
Yeah, well, it's true.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:52.400
And you know, like actually, if if you're getting the real child at home, well, fantastic on you because clearly they feel safe enough because of the environment that you're creating at home.
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:53.839
Yes, exactly.
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:55.839
It's an interesting one.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:09.599
I mean, kind of going back to sort of what we were saying about, you know, maybe adults around the child, and maybe as she was saying, maybe um an you know, social worker, let's just say, or any professional at all who isn't really trauma-informed.
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:14.400
Again, they are human beings like us, and our brain is incredible, isn't it?
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:22.880
Because as soon as we're given a situation that we don't really have a solution for yet, our brains already start explaining it, don't they?
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:32.000
So it's almost like we have to consciously think to ourselves, gather the facts first, don't freak out, you know, gather your facts, gather information.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:45.839
I mean, I wonder why it is that you think that we are so quick to kind of jump in and you know, to be like solution focused and maybe then end up kind of barking up the wrong tree and just missing the point with a child, maybe.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.200
Well, here's the thing.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:50.240
Yeah, social workers aren't trained.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.240
They're not trained in trauma.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:52.960
They're not.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:58.720
You know, I I go and speak at university, I speak for free in universities with social workers about to qualify.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:04.240
And sometimes I'm invited to universities and they'll proudly show me their projects on trauma.
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:08.480
And I look at it and I'm like, yeah, no, you you you don't get it, you don't get it.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.880
And I say to them, look, you don't you don't get it.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:12.000
This is what you need to do.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:22.720
We we run a level four qualification for social workers and therapists, which is a level it's a level four trauma-informed practitioner qualification, and we do that to fill the gap.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:28.160
But obviously, what would be better is if that stuff was embedded within the social work training.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:34.640
So when I do training with social workers, what I say to them is, look, I'm very sorry to break this news to you.
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:39.519
You're not equipped to deal with the stuff that the phosphorus and doctors are dealing with.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:46.240
Yeah, um, however, you have two really good bits of equipment uh at your disposal, and that's your ears.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.559
And what you can do is listen, because guess what?
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:56.319
The person sitting opposite you saying, I don't know what to do about little Johnny because he's done this, this, this, and this.
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.960
If you can sit there and say, This sounds really difficult, I'm gonna give this some thought.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:09.599
I'm not sure rather than leaping in with strategies like, well, my 15-year-old does that, there's nothing's gonna shut anyone up faster than saying that kind of thing.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:16.079
If you just button it and say, This sounds really different, I'm here for you, you know, let's think this through together.
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.640
And actually, what happens is a magic thing.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:25.759
You go away, the therapeutic parent feels better, their brain calms down and they access the answer.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:37.039
So, you know, a lot of social workers, what they need to become is more enablers rather than strategic thinkers, because it's not all about having the answer.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.759
But I understand it's frightening for social workers because often we wait too long.
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.160
We'll we'll we'll phone them out and go, Well, you know, I can't cope with this child anymore because this is happening.
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:47.680
And you're going in with a strategy.
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:48.720
Well, have you tried doing this?
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:49.759
Have you tried doing that?
00:31:49.920 --> 00:32:02.720
Um, for this reason, by the way, uh, one of the books I've done, which accompanies the A to Z, is the A to Z for of David for professionals, and that's got a toolkit in it for exactly that situation.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:18.799
So if you're a social worker and a phosphoryl and a doctor is saying, Charles doing this, and it's a behavior that you really aren't sure about, you can use that book, you can use the template, you will suddenly become the most skilled practitioner in the universe and you will resolve that behaviour.
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:20.720
Oh, it's for sure, absolutely.
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:36.079
And it's interesting you mentioned about social work training, because I've really come to realise recently as well that even for teacher training, um, and I've done some work recently with, you know, Skits, um, and you know, we're just not starting early on enough.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:51.519
You know, it's almost a bit like you've kind of got to qualify first, then you meet children at school and in the classroom, then you're almost presented with like this on the spot, you know, real life kind of learning that maybe you don't actually know what you're doing with it.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:59.200
So are we almost expecting too much in professionals to just inherently automatically know this stuff?
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:00.640
Well, absolutely.
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:12.160
And the problem is that people aren't training social workers and uh schools, well, teachers at teach training at the right level because those people don't exist.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:24.880
There's that they're not there because you need people like you and I that have been there, done that got the t-shirt, going into the universities and doing the training with the teaching social workers, and the universities often have their fingers in their ears.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:30.880
So the poor teacher or social workers, when they come out the other end thinking, oh great, we should have a social worker now.
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:34.799
When I qualified, I knew all about Bowlby and Freud and the Children Act.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:47.839
Nothing helped me to give the correct advice and strategies, but they can use the A to Z, they can look up the behavior, they can at least understand why it's happening, and there's strategies in it, and I know a lot of social workers use it.
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:49.119
Well, great, you know.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:54.480
Yeah, so they really, really do, and I think it's difficult, isn't it?
00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:01.279
Because then lack of knowledge and understanding, which is no one's fault, we know that that's this is a systemic thing, isn't it?
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:04.880
Really, that we're kind of talking about as much as anything today, isn't it?
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:12.719
But yeah, you know, I guess one of the challenges is that assumptions that we make often feel so true, don't they?
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:16.320
You know, people don't usually think, oh, I'm going to make an assumption here.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:24.239
Like, yeah, you know, they think I know what this is, you know, this is like Johnny I met last year, or Mary, who I worked with five years ago.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.000
But I mean, you know, what what's kind of occurring there, do you think?
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:36.719
You know, is that just almost us then feeling like, well, I'm now qualified, I should know how to deal with this.
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:52.559
Well, and feeling like the expert, you know, social workers have a lot of power, teachers have a lot of power, offset inspectors have a lot of power, they do, you know, and they'll go in holding on to their outdated model and go, Yeah, I'm the expert, I've got these qualifications, got these letters after my name now.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:58.880
So when then somebody hits with something you're not quite sure about, you you might feel so uncomfortable.
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:02.480
If you're really uh a confident person, you'll say, Do you know what?
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:03.840
I haven't come across this before.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:06.079
I'm gonna go and research to look into it.
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:12.480
But a lot of people aren't because you feel like the foster parent is looking to you to solve it.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:16.159
And actually, that's not really what's going on here.
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.880
Often the parent is offloading.
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:25.519
That they're saying this is when they say, Oh, he drives him up the wall, they're not saying this child is unsafe, I'm gonna kill him.
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:29.760
What they're saying is I'm on my last nerve here.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.440
Yeah, I don't know what to do.
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:39.280
I don't know what to do, and and but often that will tip over into safeguarding and the social people could go, oh, well, they said so and so, so and so.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:44.159
And I'm like, oh, for goodness sake, you know, it it's it's not that is not what's going on.
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:50.480
Because sometimes I think as parents, we get so desperate to be heard that we elevate our language.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:54.400
So we like our children do, they elevate their language, they say, I'm going to kill myself.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:02.320
And actually, they don't really know what that means, but they know it gets a lot of people running round, and so because people take it seriously.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:16.000
So, you know, I think that when we see that happening, it's difficult for everyone, and it's the one thing that needs to change because and I actually I'll tell you a little story it where the difference it makes.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:19.760
My two fostering agencies, one's in Wales and one's in England, right?
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.239
Yes.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:22.559
So we're inspected by Care Inspectorate Wales.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:26.079
Care Inspectorate Wales is trauma informed, right?
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.119
They know what they're talking about, they've had training, yeah.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.000
Uh they get it.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:34.559
They come into our agency and they go, This is really amazing work.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:36.159
You've got such high stability rates.
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:37.679
It's wow, this is just great.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:39.599
Can you train other fostering agencies?
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:40.239
Yes, we can.
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:41.440
We'll go and do it for free.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.360
We train local authorities for free.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:45.280
No, no, you know, that's how you do it.
00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:46.400
You spread the word.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.639
Ofsted, not trauma informed, I'm not saying every single ostentate inspector, but no, no, but as an organization.
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.000
Yeah, quite a few are.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:01.599
They'll come in, same senior management team, same policies and procedures, same trauma informed model, and go, oh, this is very worrying.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:04.639
Really high civility rates, not interested in that.
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:09.280
You need to do a bit more blame, you need to, you need to do more blaming of foster parents.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:09.679
Exactly.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.159
I just think that's where it goes wrong.
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:16.719
Because if you've got inspectors coming in saying, Oh, where's your trauma-informed practice?
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.559
If you do that, this will work better.
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:32.159
That means that schools and fostering agencies and adoption agencies will get in the trauma-informed training they need, they will educate their staff and that, and then they'll tick that box for Osted and CRW.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.639
So I am working on that at the moment.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:39.360
I am uh doing something about that because I think that's where it's got to change.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:40.559
It really does.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:50.159
And I almost wonder whether some of those kind of training gaps, you know, that we've identified, does that almost then give rise to some of the labels that we do end up using?
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:58.880
So, for example, before you used that, and I think sometimes it can be useful, but I think it's becoming a catch-all now, dysregulation, you know.
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.119
But also words like manipulative, attention seeking, difficult.
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:15.920
Is that kind of you know, more about, you know, almost we we don't really actually have the language ourselves as adults in order to appropriately discuss those things?
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:20.639
And does that almost sometimes get in the way of you know being curious?
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:38.480
It it absolutely gets in the way, and actually that language is designed to protect adults because if we say the child is dysregulated and has had 22 placements, that's quite a nice clinical way to describe something.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:52.320
If we say this child is terrified the whole time, and because he's terrified, people have really struggled to manage that terror, and because of that, he's had 22 foster homes, 22 beds, 22 sets of boundaries, 22 schools.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.800
Oh, he continues to be terrified.
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.639
So we use this nice clinical language, I think.
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:06.079
Um, that's why in my in my teams, we don't ever use the word placement, we say child and home.
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:11.519
You know, we don't say dysregulation anymore and regulated because who says that?
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:15.679
I mean, you wouldn't go home and say, Oh, I'm dysregulated today.
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:24.079
That's language we've specifically devised to protect us from the reality, the starkness of childhood trauma.
00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:26.800
It is, yeah, it absolutely is.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:45.760
One thing that I find runs through your work, Sarah, and feel free to correct me if if I'm wrong in my belief here, but is almost that question that we can ask of what else could be true in that given situation, or what else could be true when we think that we've correctly interpreted a behavior.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.880
I mean, how important would you say that is?
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:56.960
It's absolutely vital because every time you do that, and I always talk about the pause, you know, where we when we're looking at our children, don't we?
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.599
We go, Oh, what's going on here?
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.519
That's what I do now in my head.
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:02.880
Instead of going, why did you do that?
00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:11.519
I do a pause, it might be a second, and I like and I literally do a reboot and I'll take a deep breath and I think, what's happening?
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:14.400
You ask it in your head, what's happening?
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:16.000
And you can do that with everybody.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:16.800
What's happening?
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:18.239
What else might have happened?
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:27.599
So I'll make my best guess with the child, or I'll make my best guess with a practitioner I'm working with, but I'll be prepared to give it an alternative.
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:32.559
I had a social work come up the other day and say, Oh, there's been an allegation.
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:36.639
Uh this child has said XYZ, and you know, it's very serious.
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:37.360
We're going out there.
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.280
And I said, Okay, I said, just bear in mind that might not have happened.
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:42.559
Well, exactly.
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:43.920
Let's just take a breath.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:48.719
And she looked at me, she looked at me like like I was a safeguarding denier.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.639
Uh, you know, and I said, I said, no, my first priority is safeguarding.
00:40:52.800 --> 00:41:14.239
However, then Ofsted's own data says 52% of allegations are unfounded or or unsubstantiated or not actually not because we know that children say things in the moment to keep that nurture coming, and often they're unaware of what they're saying and to preserve that relationship.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:17.119
Absolutely, and that's tricky, isn't it?
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:35.840
Because that kind of comes back to connection seeking, you know, what we were saying earlier on about that basic needers, you know, particularly when maybe you know, there have been relationships that are broken down, or there have, let's say, been adults for whatever which way, um, have unfortunately, you know, maybe left that child's life.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:38.960
You know, you're going to cling on, aren't you, with all you have?
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:46.719
Um to kind of keep that going and to sort of feel, hey, these adults still hear me, they still know that I'm here.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:48.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:48.320 --> 00:42:00.000
It's really important because what we often see, the usual pattern in a team where there's not any trauma-informed practice, taking the example of the child with the holy jumper, right?
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.039
That escalates.
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:01.360
Yeah.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:06.320
They go to school, they've got a non-trauma-informed TA who goes, Oh dear, you got a holy jumper.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:14.079
The child, because they need to keep that nurture coming, because that's what would have saved them when they were young, is not aware of what's coming out of their mouth.
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:19.039
And oh, yeah, I've mum sold my jumper, I've only got this one, and I all my clothes are too small.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:25.440
You know, anything that's gonna get me a jelly baby or a hot chocolate or a you know, it's gonna get me out of pee, whatever it is.
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:35.519
So when that comes back to the parent, if you're not trauma informed, well, A, you're gonna be annoyed because they haven't seen behind the behavior, but B, it comes to you as blame.
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:39.440
And if you're not trauma-informed, you're gonna go, I can't believe he said that about me.
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:40.960
He lied about me.
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:47.119
So, what we do is all our foster parents go, oh, okay, I see what's going on here.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:49.920
Um, we've got a mismatch with the internal working model.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.800
Um, and actually, what's happened is the child's done X, Y, Z.
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:56.320
And they say to the child, Look, you know, I know you said this, this, this.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.400
You might be unaware, you said this, this, this.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:00.880
But actually, what's going on here is this.
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:04.960
Because the most important thing for them is to preserve the relationship.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:15.360
But when you're not traumated, the relationship breaks down, the child moves, the foster parent gets angry, won't have the child back or whatever, and everyone goes into this little circle of blame.
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:26.480
Everyone's blaming everyone, and in the middle of it, the child is blaming the whole world, no growth, no healing, um, just another disruption and and and hurt.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:28.159
Yeah, it's so true.
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:34.480
And what about, you know, maybe for those listening who may have had an allegation made against them?
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:43.119
Like any kind of advice or guidance as to kind of how to to cope with that afterwards, you know, when you know it has been completely unfounded.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:47.519
You know, how do we move forward with our relationship with that child?
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:53.360
One of the things that you can have is we wrote the allegation support pack.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.360
You can get that free of charge from the Centre of Excellence and Child Traum, you get it online.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:43:59.760
Um, that will really help you.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.920
To understand where why there's a false allegation, where it comes from, it'll help you to preserve your relationship.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:15.920
And it'll also give you really nice quotes and hangouts you can give to people signed by me or other trauma-informed professionals to say this it takes the heat off you a little bit.
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:26.000
Because if you can handle the allegation right, and if you can look at it like the child didn't do it to me, this was an expression of their trauma, you know.
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:29.840
And and Sarah Dylan says, uh, the child's not lying, but they're not telling the truth.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:43.599
When my son made an allegation and said, I've got no electricity in my room, he wasn't lying because there was a time in his life when he didn't have electricity in his room, but he wasn't telling the truth because he had electricity in his room now.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:45.360
Um, and and it's about that.
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:47.760
What at what time did that happen?
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:56.000
And then go back to the child and say, Oh, I think you were talking about this time in your life, and it's really easy to get that mixed up when you've had a tricky start in life.
00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:00.079
It helps us to keep that connection to the child.
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:01.760
Yeah, it really, really does.
00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:12.400
And again, to kind of think about you know, maybe that was the first time that an adult probably took him to the special office with the comfortable seats, with the um, I'm gonna say hot chocolate.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:20.239
You've got me thinking about hot chocolate now, and so finally that was a little time to explore what it was like to not have electricity at home.
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:21.280
That's right.
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:23.920
But actually the time point is wrong.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:24.239
Yeah.
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:25.599
That's right, that's right.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:26.960
Exactly that.
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:31.679
So, what changes when adults can recognize that?
00:45:32.719 --> 00:45:35.599
It changes the entire world for the child.
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:50.159
Yeah, because when we are seeing the pain that the child is showing us, the narrative for the child changes from you are bad, you do bad things, into bad things happen to you, which were absolutely not your fault.
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.880
And because they happen to you, sometimes you behave in this way, and we're gonna help you with that.
00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:07.119
So that changes my son from being a youth offending person, going into prison and doing drugs, to now running his own business in a long-term relationship, kinship carer, actually.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.440
Um, you know, drives, all the rest of it.
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:10.159
Oh, wow.
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:17.440
Changes their whole life doing that, changing that narrative and sharing it with them.
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:21.280
People forget to tell the child, they work it out, but they forget to tell them.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:23.599
We've got to help the child to make sense of it.
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:25.440
Yeah, we absolutely do.
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:26.159
We absolutely do.
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.880
So, sorry, he's now a kinship carer himself.
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:33.119
Yeah, two of my adopted children have become kinship carers.
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:44.480
Yeah, they they've come back from the side, and they and that, and that's what made me get quite involved in kinship care because I realized how how um unsupported the system is.
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:44.800
Yeah.
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:46.800
Oh, it really is, it really is.
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:51.599
You know, I often say that you know, we we do spend so long talking about foster care, don't we?
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:56.559
But almost not always thinking about that nuance of you know, the kinship element.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:04.559
So, but gosh, it's almost like they're sort of paying forward in a way, you know, not that you'd ever want any thanks for you know the sacrifices that you made for them.
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.400
But it's kind of like that ripple continuous into the future.
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:18.000
What might help actually if you've got any kinship carers listening, is I did a book last year called The Essential Guide to Kinship Care with Enzo Smith MBE, who's head of the Kinship Carers UK.
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:25.679
Um, and that's literally if you're just starting out or you're getting people telling you lots of things you don't know where to go, that's literally a map through for you.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:27.840
It tells you all the things you really need to know.
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:28.320
Yeah.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:30.079
Oh, they do incredible work.
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:31.840
Thanks so much for doing this out there.
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:38.800
And I will make sure as well, you know, for everybody listening that all the bits that we've mentioned today will be including the links and all that.
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:44.639
So if you are a kinship carer, um, yeah, definitely worth checking out that for sure.
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:45.199
Yeah.
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:45.840
Wow.
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:48.400
Sarah, were there any questions today?
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:54.400
And I always ask this question every episode, you know, that you were really hoping that I was going to ask you.
00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:57.119
No, I I think you've asked them actually.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:03.840
I really do, because you know, that's what I wanted to get um through about that whole looking behind the behavior.
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:08.159
I would just add never ask a child why they did something.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.400
Oh, waste of time.
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:20.159
Because unless you're confident that they're gonna say, well, what it was was my thinking brain was flying and my amygdala was in charge, they're not gonna say that.
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.719
You just gotta do that narrative yourself.
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:24.000
Yeah, you really do.
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:27.679
I mean, unless they are like, you know, baby Einstein or something though.
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:33.440
But then they wouldn't have behaved, then they wouldn't have behaved when they did because they would have been able to logic it out.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.360
Exactly, logic it out.
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:36.000
I love that.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.239
I'm gonna steal that one, logic it out.
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:39.519
That's really powerful.
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:49.840
So, what do we hope, Sarah, that the kind of golden message will be um to our listeners to kind of almost sum up um our beautiful conversation that we've had together today?
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:52.159
Don't take it personally.
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:02.639
If you're looking after a child, I I know it's hard, I know it can feel relentless and it feels like it's it's one step forward and two steps back, but believe me, you are making a difference.
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:06.800
It's just that all those changes happen at once and they come later on.
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:18.480
And if you're a trauma, if you're a practitioner who's supporting a foster parent, a doctor kinship carer, get trauma-informed, read the book, go to the training, don't just play lip service to it.
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:21.679
You you your people you're looking after deserve that.
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:23.599
The children deserve that.
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:26.400
They absolutely do, they absolutely do.
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:32.400
Sarah, can I just say on behalf of myself, ticks, and all of our listeners, thank you so much for today.
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.440
For listeners, we're currently in the middle of a heat wave, aren't we, Sarah?
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.239
So it's been a tricky one today.
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:48.719
Um, but yeah, so the fact that Sarah's brain has worked so beautifully is testament to all those decades that you've really kind of dedicated of your life to supporting children, young people, and adults.
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:50.159
So thank you so much, Sarah.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:52.239
Thank you very much.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:00.159
Thank you so much for joining us.
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:04.159
To learn more, visit the Trauma Informed Consultancy Services website.
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:05.920
We'll see you next time.