WEBVTT
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Hello friends, and a very warm welcome to Transforming Stress with Dr.
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Ash.
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Are you ready to turn stress into your comfort?
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For over 30 years now, Dr.
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Ash has worked and gained education across three continents: India, the United Kingdom, and the United States in healthcare.
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He's witnessed firsthand how stress can impact our health and our happiness.
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But here's the exciting part.
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He's here to help you transform your stress into a powerful tool for growth and resilience.
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Each week, he'll share practical tools and life-changing insights from his books, including The Boiling Frog, to help you manage your stress, find balance, and live a life of purpose.
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Please join us every Friday at 5 pm and let's start turning stress into strength together.
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Now let's dive into today's episode.
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Hello friends, welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr.
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Ash podcast.
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And today I have a very special guest, Mr.
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Sunil Robert from across the pond in from New York City.
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His journey has been of a massive resilience, a very humbling journey.
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He has helped 10,000 corporate executives.
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He had a near-death experience.
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He was on the brink of suicide, and he turned around his life completely and took his life to the highest heights of the career.
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He's an author, he's a best-selling author of two books, a global executive, he's a TEDx speaker, and most importantly, Sunil's purpose is to inspire thousands of people, young men who are finding themselves in very challenging situations.
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His own story is of completely remarkable resilience.
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So beyond his massive achievements, what really drew me to Suril was his beyond imagination, remarkable resilience.
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And not just resilience, I would say beyond resilience.
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The post-traumatic growth he has demonstrated in his life is really deeply inspiring to me.
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And I will share with you more how I connected with Sunil.
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Sunil, really I'm delighted to have you on the show, my friend.
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Thank you, Dr.
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Ash.
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Um, it's such a joy to be on your show because when I first heard about you, you'll be surprised to know where I heard about you, and and we will talk about that in one of the farthest uh parts of the world in the continent of Antarctica where Akash and I were running.
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That's when I got to know of him.
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So I call out to Akash for taking a moment to uh introduce us as we have similar passions, similar missions, similar outlook in life of trying to use life's adversities, life's stress factors, and then see how they can be used as tools of transformation.
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So I'm delighted to be here.
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I I'm from you know you know the the the thing about being at a point of rock bottom or at a point of suicide is every growth accomplishment that comes later is a bonus.
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It's so one of the reasons I live a fearless life is because I know I was at one point at rock bottom, I had nothing to lose because from then on it was everything to gain.
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So all these accomplishments, they they may not mean much to someone else, but from where I started, it's all a huge bonus, and today's meeting with you is a bonus, and I'm so grateful for that.
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Thank you, Sunil.
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Uh, likewise, um I really share uh your joy, and you mentioned Antarctica, where uh I used to read a lot of uh work from Antarctica by Ernest Sir Ernest Shackleton.
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And uh there's a book he had written, Leading from the Edge.
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Leading at the Edge, which is about dealing with the absolute crisis.
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So now that you have mentioned about Antarctica, and you went there for a marathon, which is you went to the harshiest environment to do a marathon there.
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Tell me about your inspiration, and I know you've done around seven, eight, you've done marathons across all the continents of the world.
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Take me through that journey.
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Yeah.
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So I was not a natural athlete like you both.
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Uh for the benefit of the listeners of this podcast.
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Dr.
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Ash and his brother Akash are natural athletes.
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Uh uh Akash, his younger brother, actually played cricket with two of India's biggest names of his era, Sachin Tendulkar and Vinath Kambli and stuff.
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When he showed me those pictures of having played cricket with those legends, my jaw dropped.
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Because I am one of those who's not naturally gifted athlete.
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But then, in a very remarkable way, you know, it's actually linked to all this topic of resilience.
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About 25 years ago, I was involved in a motorbike accident.
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And a big piece of my right knee was surgically removed, and the doctor's prognosis was for the rest of your life, you'll sort of live with an incapacitated knee, and you will not be able to do what normal things that people can do.
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For example, run, jog, squat, lift, anything that involves knees and and your legs as your uh as your starting point, you will not be able to do.
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Which sort of put me in a bit of a spiral of depression because at that time I was still single.
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I had this flowing long hair, reasonably well-built body, and I was in the I was what people in India called tall, dark, and handsome at that point.
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Just so so so to be attacked at at my knee and and have a bit of my self-esteem robbed seemed very unfair to me.
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And for the next 10 years, I went off the rails as far as my health was concerned.
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I was eating badly, I could I lived with a carefree attitude.
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And when you and we in in South India, we we are rice eaters, and if you consume tremendous amounts of viryani and rice, your your belly starts getting disproportionate to your overall limbs and structure.
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So I was obese.
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Uh, and the doctors looked at my numbers and said, Man, you have cardiac in your family history, you have blood pressure in your family history, you have you've got a lot of things going against you, you've got to do something about it.
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So at the ripe old age of 42, I really needed to review my life.
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And the first time I tried to do something cardiac was on a treadmill, I could not even last for a minute.
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The reason is not because I did not have the stamina, but because I was scared of falling off the treadmill because I could not hold on to the balance of running on a treadmill.
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So from there, within about four or five months, I was able to do the Philadelphia half marathon in the fall of 2010.
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What a transformation story it was.
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And when I posted it on Facebook, I was struck by the number of people who said, wow, what an inspiring story.
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What it, I mean, I didn't think much of it at that time.
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I thought, you know, I it's I was just reclaiming my own health.
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I was reclaiming my own strength.
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And from that moment, what seemed like an impossibility.
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So the Dr.
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Ramo, the orthopedic surgeon who removed my uh knee, and and he said, forget sports.
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You will actually have to walk with a cane uh to for the rest of your life.
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And and I'm glad I proved this prognosis wrong because not only was I able to get back my limp, uh uh overcome my limp and get back my gait, the in in the ability to walk straight and walk confidently, I was now getting strength to even jog and slow jog.
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I by no means I'm a fast runner uh like your brother or any of these three three and a half hour, four-hour uh marathon finishers.
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I am the back of the pack kind of a runner.
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But from there to even do some of the toughest marathons like the Boston Marathon and Tokyo Marathon and most recently Antarctica Marathon is a dream come true.
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Who I mean who wouldn't take this kind of a blessing, uh Dr.
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Ash?
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So, with all due respect, um uh with all modesty uh aside, I feel you know, when life throws you melons, you make melon juice, right?
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Very, very true.
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What has this journey of going from almost uh limb-threatening injury to running a marathon?
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How much first of all, how much time it took Sunil?
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I trained for about four months to to do the half marathon because obviously I had to really like for example, I remember days when I tried to go for a four or five mile run on a long weekend.
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Um I would run out of juice at mile three or mile four, and I would call my wife and say, Hey, you gotta give bring me water and bring me some Gatorade and give me a ride back home.
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And on a Saturday, she'd be doing some household chores and she'd she'd like to snap her fingers and just say, Okay, what is this newfound addiction that should come and bring me back home and stuff?
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But the journey is the transformation.
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See, in our running circle, there's a saying that says, your four months of preparation is actually your transformation.
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The race day is actually a celebration of that transformation.
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On race day, you are merely there to receive the medal.
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All the hard miles have been put in, all the strength training has been put in.
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You are ready because the five hours or four and a half hours or three hours, whatever is your race time, is a celebration race.
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Because the journey itself is the reward.
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The journey is where you transform.
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So even though I've done about 24 full marathons, I would say in the last 15 years, what I have become and how I have found my physical limits and how I was able to push through those physical limits is a transformation story.
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And I'm not by any means saying this is a unique story.
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Every marathon runner would agree that it's in that training period, it is in that 300-400 miles you put in in the training that you truly know your limits, truly become who you are.
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And each race, Dr.
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Ash, will test you.
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You cannot say, like you say in tennis or any other game, that you've you've got this muscle memory and cumulative experience that will take you through the game.
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Yes, it works truly in that sense as well, but each marathon tests you.
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Each marathon is different, and you you can't carry or transfer your previous experiences into a race day because that race day, the marathon course will test you.
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You respect the course, you put a battle plan together, you execute that battle plan, and then you celebrate at the finish line.
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So for me, the journey is in the transformation.
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The journey is in the transformation.
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And I also read uh from your work that in your framework which you share with your listeners, uh, that physical vitality is a very important component when people have a setback in their life, and how to have the breakthrough from that setback, that journey, the physical vitality is a really huge component.
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Absolutely.
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In fact, though those three elements are the pillars on which you you launch off into this battle against adversity.
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Now we must define what adversity is, right?
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For example, the management world talks about e-stress, distress, and stress in the middle.
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If you're not completely uh being challenged or stretched, you are in e-stress.
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Or if you're completely pushed to beyond a point, you're in distress.
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But there's that happy medium or right in the middle where you're being stressed.
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In fact, just uh a couple of days ago on CrickInfo, there was an interview by Virat Kohli where he said stress is a privilege.
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Pressure is a privilege.
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So there is that right amount of pressure which champion athletes, marathon runners, professionals like you who are constantly spending their life optimizing their hours for maximum impact, there is that right pressure that we need to define.
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So when you are struck with a debilitating kind of a prognosis, either it could be health or relationships breakdown or even existential crisis where you're searching for meaning in your own life, no matter what it is.
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If it is physical, then to combat that physical adversity, you need that strength of purpose, the mental cognitive, cognitive bandwidth, or cognitive horsepower.
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So those are the three pillars I argue in the TED Talk that I shared.
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But more importantly, this ability to see things misaligned is is pressure point.
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Why are some of the most successful people disillusioned with life?
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Why is there that gnawing emptiness in their spirits?
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Right?
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It is misalignment.
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What they pursued as a relentless journey towards achievements, the moment they got that achievement, they saw that emptiness that follows.
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It's called uh post-Race Day blues or post-accomplishment blues.
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You you see it all the time uh after any big event like a World Cup or IPL or any um Super Bowl, for example.
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The days following that, people experience what is called a post-event blues.
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And the metaphor there is some of your life's most dramatic accomplishments you can look at, and you discover the the following days after the euphoria dies down.
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Let's take our own Antarctica marathon as an example.
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For weeks and months and years, we've been dreaming about that, and then there is a certain phenomena called post-Antarctica blues.
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When you are getting back to terraforma, when you're getting back to the main continent of South America and then subsequently North America, you come home, you you've got this mountaintop experience, and now you're coming down to Earth, terraforma.
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How do you handle that void, or how do you handle that transition from this dizzying heights to grounding reality, right?
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So this ability to see yourself out of alignment, and again, alignment presupposes a standard ahead of you.
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And when I coach leaders, when I train people, I ask them, what is your true north?
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What is the principle by which you are willing to measure your success by?
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Not a defined principle by external sources.
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You know, sometimes young children or teenagers and young adults, their success is defined by parents.
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And sometimes, even after they do all that, they feel disillusioned because they tried everything from an external validation.
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And the same is true of us.
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What are we pursuing these massive dreams for?
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Are you pursuing them to get this social keeping up with the Jones kind of Jones kind of phenomena?
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Or are you truly powered by a purpose?
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And that misalignment often causes adversity at different levels.
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But just you are a physician, you come from the medical world.
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So for you, you are a better source of talking about the physical resilience.
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But for me, I as a non-medical professional, somebody who's just studied resilience as a theme, for me, it's a misalignment between what is a perceived reality versus what is actual, right?
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So in my case, my own journey through my adverse childhood, young days, where I was at that point of giving up to finding that purpose and then aligning myself with that purpose helps me keep going forward.
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So I don't either get buoyed up or lifted by these accomplishments or the social media validation or even accomplishments like getting on a podcast like this define me.
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They give us a high, they give us joy, they give us some degree of happiness, but I'm not defined by it.
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Should something crash and burn in the next few days, my identity should not be so shaken up.
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So alignment and it's linked to who you are as far as your identity is concerned.
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You know, when we attach our identity to things that can be taken away, then you'll be truly tested when that happens.
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Like, like, why do some politicians find it difficult to quit their chair?
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Why do superstar sportspeople find it difficult to retire or give up their space at the right time?
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Because they're so caught up in that web of success, they don't know when to go.
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In fact, uh Sunil Gawaskar said when reporters asked him, Why did you retire so early when you had so much more game in your tank?
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He said, It is better better to retire early and let people ask why early than not retire and let people wonder when is he going to quit, right?
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So linking all this together, I feel resilience is a function of your ability to find alignment and linked it to your identity.
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And if you're sure of your identity, nothing can stop you.
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I know many people in this world have only their identity limited to their profession.
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Sure.
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And if there is anything catastrophic there, they find it very they just fall apart.
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So any ideas you would like to share here, Sunil, that how one should have multiple areas of our interest, including our profession and outside.
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So, like I can say that your identity today is not only a corporate professional, you are also an author, you're also a global executive, you are also a marathoner, you are also a family person.
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So when one identity is threatened, you got something else to fall back upon.
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Many, many things else going for you.
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So here I want to define roles that we play in our journey, right?
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Among the many roles that we play in our life, at every stage in our life cycle, each role assumes significance, right?
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And the ability to hold those roles, multiple roles, in constant tension is a function of your identity.
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For example, very early in my teenage life, I defined my identity as not someone who's seen as a loser as defined by others, or someone who said, this guy will not amount to anything except a rowdy cheater.
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I must share with your viewers that when I was in college and I was involved in college politics, I was a pretty rebellious kid.
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I was involved in group violence, gangs, student politics, getting beaten up by others, beating up others, uh constant visits to the police stations, and and word spreads, right?
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People know that you know this this young man is going this down this path.
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And many people had given up on me.
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And the identity that that was thrust upon me at that stage was he's a future criminal, future rowdy cheater.
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But then a dramatic transformation happened in my young years, and that's where my identity really shifted.
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Now, here I want to talk to you about how some of us view our life.
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To be this crazy sprint.
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And in my second book, Bound to Rise, I actually talk about how life is not a crazy sprint.
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You've got to view it like a marathon.
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And it you're in it for the long haul.
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You're in it for the long run, so to speak.
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And in that, I want to talk to you about the many roles you get to play.
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And where we come from in Asia, South Asia, India, China, some of it, we see careers in a linear manner.
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But you come to the Western Hemisphere, you don't see careers in a linear manner.
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Here you see young people very early defining that they're going to be in the non-profit world or they will join an organization dear to their heart and change the world.
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They're not looking to make money.
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And of course, there are some young kids who go pursue Ivy League credentials and go into the world of wealth management, banking, finance, high finance, all that fine.
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But when you see that as immigrant, as an immigrant, I moved from East to the West, I realized that I should be in a position to embrace both worldviews and define my life in such a way that I'm not defined just by my corporate role.
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And so even when I was at work, like for example, in my last role in TCS, I was able to actually use my God-given talents and gifts and the love of speaking and love of public speaking and training to train more than 40,000 engineers in different client locations, client accounts, and share my knowledge.
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Now, I was not paid for that.
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Of course, they paid for my stay and other stuff.
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But my passion to make a difference to the folks around me is a function of how you see your identity, what gifts and talents you possess, and how you can bless the world around.
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See, if I said, look, I want a week time to go out and I want to train some people in Minnesota, where 3M account and Target account, Target Corporation are located.
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My company will say, if training is your passion, you better go and do it.
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But but I said, I'm in marketing, my primary calling is marketing, but I have this gift of teaching.
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I love communications, I want to train our people.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:34.799
And through our HR people, I was able to find opportunities where I was not going to be paid extra, but it allowed me an avenue to express myself.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:50.720
So that won tremendous amount of respect from my audience because they saw here was a guy who's not coming because he's paid to, but he's coming because he's he loves this topic and he wants to bless or offer the gift of that talent to me.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:58.880
So audience receptivity was high, and they were taking this content with you know open hearts and minds.
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:04.559
So the ability to link your identity to the many roles you play.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:10.559
So there I was playing the role of a trainer, but there subsequently in my day job, I am a marketer.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:16.640
I come home, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I go to church, I'm a church member, I'm in the community.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:20.160
In the neighborhood I live, I must tell you a funny story.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.640
I every summer I rally all the kids in my neighborhood and say, I'm gonna teach your kids public speaking, right?
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:36.319
Which parent does not want their children to vanish for three, four hours on a given day, on a particular weekend, free babysitting, right?
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:52.960
But the flip side is not only am I imparting these young kids the love of communication and public speaking, I'm telling them this joy in storytelling, the ability to share with each other their stories.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:57.680
And many of these kids grow together because we all live in the neighborhood, right?
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.160
And friendships get deepened.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:04.559
I'm creating an avenue for me to take a peek into their lives.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.039
Some of these kids are now become teenagers.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.200
Uh and every time I see them, they come very affectionately and talk to me.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:13.200
I get a window into what's happening.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:19.759
All because I chose to use my gifts as a good neighbor, as an uncle who loves them.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.720
You know, in our community, we are referred to as uncles, right?
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:34.480
That role as a responsible citizen, responsible community builder, allows me the love and the affection of many families from which these children come.
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:52.480
So you are, if you start looking at it globally and say, I have so many of these roles to play, and when something goes wrong in one avenue, the other roles come together to multiple identities, are there, and your life is not hanging by just one rope.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:53.359
Correct.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.880
And so that's where de-risking or that's where going all in is a risk.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.720
Because ultimately no one cares.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.400
You are they say, right?
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:06.480
No one is indispensable at work.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.079
I'm a resource.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.839
I I'm I'm paid, I'm paid for the time that I put in.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.640
I get a designation, all that is fine.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.440
But should I be hit by a bus tomorrow?
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:27.359
No one's going to take the role of all the other roles that I was playing as a dad, as a spouse, as a community leader, as a church member, as every other role, right?
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:35.519
And above all, a great citizen of America and the love that I have for my country, homeland, back home in India.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.480
Every year I go back to India, at least twice.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:46.000
And when I go, I use my 30 days of time to inspire young people in engineering colleges, MBA colleges.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:54.960
Wherever I get an opportunity, I just go and sort of give the blessing or the gift of my experience and passion.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.359
Sunil, that is really, really very inspiring.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:11.200
And I think that purpose which you have is also a huge piece of resilience.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:25.119
When the challenges come in life, if somebody has a deep purpose, like your purpose is inspiring thousands of people in the United States, around the world, and India.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:34.640
Young youth, and recently I heard that you also go to prisons in New York, uh to New Jersey.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:39.839
So that purpose is a huge yeah.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:48.640
Again, when you see your cause as communities and individuals, you will never miss an opportunity.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:55.440
You know, I'll I'll share a very fresh example, fresh uh cross-on or a bun from the oven.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:10.000
Three, four days ago, my wife and I were at shopping for a new car, and we were at a car showroom, and we were talking to different young people who were uh you know car salesmen.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:18.880
Then they you talk to the finance people, you talk to the accounting people, you talk to the guy who runs the numbers, then one guy comes and sells you the car servicing plan.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:31.039
We were dealing with one guy, and suddenly my wife and I started asking him, 'You I hope you had a good Mother's Day.' And he said, Yeah, it was a mixed feeling.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.039
I it was bittersweet, and then and then we could have just left it there.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.039
My wife is very perceptive.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.119
She said, Um, what do you mean?
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:40.480
Uh, can you tell us?
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:53.359
As we were talking, he just shared that this year, about four or five months ago, his 16-year-old son was involved in a car crash and he died instantly.
00:29:54.160 --> 00:30:03.759
You know, prior to me becoming this uh sensitive, compassionate leader, I would have just dismissed it.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:04.880
He's a stranger.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.440
We are there to buy a car, just get on with it.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.039
Do the be cordial, be polite, finish the interaction, and go.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:21.920
But we spent the next 45 minutes to an hour just walking with that man through the journey, and he was sharing about how he and his wife come from different worldviews.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.359
They were sharing, he was unpacking what was going on.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:44.720
You know, the world's biggest cross to carry is a parent or an adult burying a younger one, and no amount of theoretical empathy or anything can truly measure the grief of it's against the run of nature, right?
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.480
Young people should bury the older ones, that's the cycle of life.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:57.039
But for us to reverse, and when you bury a young person who's 16-year-old, my heart just sank into the chair that I was sitting in.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:19.039
We were just so where I'm going with this anecdote is for us, it could have just been a car buying transaction, but we spent time with that man and we took his number, we just exchanged emails, and he said, Is it okay to share more as we keep going forward as they navigate this journey, which will be their lifetime journey of grief?
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:28.559
And then to put it around and saying you should always be focused on a mission, thousands, hundreds of people, but never lose sight of the individual.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.039
Because ultimately we are individuals.
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:36.960
Uh, if somebody comes to me and says, I want to change the world, I want to deal with you, I am not the world.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:38.240
I am Sunal.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.640
I am my name is distinct, my identity is unique.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:46.000
So, this whole notion of being able to see the individual.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:59.279
In fact, that's why when Akash and I hit it together, we started getting into each other's stories because you know he's a remarkable guy like you, unique story, and then we our stories start connecting and meshing.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.400
In fact, somebody uh said we are not all human beings, we are stories in collision with each other.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.920
Stories in collision with each other.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:17.119
Is a story, and the moment I take time to take the story behind this human being, that's when true and authentic bonding happens.
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:17.680
Right?
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.000
I mean, we are talking such deep uh resilience as a theme.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.319
It wouldn't have been possible just straight away.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.079
We turn the microphones on, right?
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:27.920
A lot of layering happened.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.559
We went back and forth and we talked.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:41.119
I now know a little bit of your story, and now you know a little bit of my story, and we are building these stories together so that the ripple effect of other stories can be inspired.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:50.240
So, my mission is yes, to transform the world using my communication skills and my story, but I will never lose sight of the individual, Dr.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:50.960
Ash.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.640
Thank you so much for uh sharing that, Sunil.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:20.880
Really, uh you have put it very beautifully that stories are so important part and how sometimes you've had you might have had a might have had a story you have been telling yourself, but there is another layer of beauty in how you can reframe those stories.
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:34.240
So, one of the stories when I was reading about you, when you had a real close brush with death, and when you wanted to end it all, I know this is something very personal.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:41.839
Uh, if you would like to speak about it or if you don't want to share about it, that's fine as well.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:55.039
No, I I I want to share because when you share your rock bottom moments, then folks will also appreciate your mountaintop celebrations.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:04.799
So my rock bottom was when during those teenage years when I had uh attempted suicide, not just once, but twice.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.559
The second time I almost pulled it off.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.159
I felt uh again.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:22.239
Now you might wonder why this reasonably good-looking man who seemed to have got everything together at this now, at least now, hit that rock bottom, right?
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:26.000
I was the oldest, I am the oldest of four siblings.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:34.639
My dad, who had a well-paying job, had suddenly lost it, and over a period of four to five years, we had really crumbled as a family.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:43.199
And at that time, I was coming into my teen years, I was from 14, 15 onwards, all the way till 18.
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:46.480
We had no food to eat, no place to stay.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:35:01.199
We were being evicted from rental homes time to time, and I was really boiling a lot of anger and rage against my parents, against my the conditions and circumstances that I was growing up to be.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:06.079
And, you know, comparison is the thief that steals away all our joy, right?
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:11.760
I would look around and see my classmates and neighbors doing reasonably okay.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.320
I mean, we are not from a wealthy community or a wealthy area, but they were doing okay.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:22.000
Their parents had decent jobs and government jobs in some instances, and they were doing all right.
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.440
They had a place to stay, they were eating well, wearing good clothes, and I was struggling.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:32.559
And so, for example, one of the nicknames I got bullied with was called Alter.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:40.000
Kyunki, I used to wear clothes that were altered, given away, hand-me-downs from other people.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:48.480
And being evicted from homes is a very dehumanizing experience.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:36:02.320
Um, there were times when we would be taken into relatives' homes, but there were times when we were just waited out outside, in in outside my grandma's house or somewhere where there wasn't enough place for everyone.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:11.519
So these are physically hurtful times uh of conditions of poverty closing in on us.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:17.440
That was only one piece, but the other piece was my existential angst as a young teenager.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:25.440
I was rebelling at home and I was in a polytechnic, things were not going well, student violence.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:31.440
Uh I had a love affair at that time, which ended in a big heartbreak.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:42.559
And so there was this feeling that nobody loves me, no, I don't have a future, my self-esteem hit rock bottom, and I just wanted to end it all.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:51.840
Because the reason most people choose the path of suicide, and subsequently I ended up working in a suicide prevention organization called Sahaya.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:58.800
The the Telugu word Sahaya in and and even in Hindi, I think, to some degree means help.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:14.239
Uh it's it's uh organization run by Befrienders International, where you counsel the folks who are suicidally depressed, feeling lonely or or uh anxious and they need some kind of an outlet.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:37.119
So subsequently I drew into that area, but one of the reasons why young people or anyone get pressured or get pulled into depression that ends up to suicidal efforts is often that seems like just your one choice away from solving everything.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:46.239
You see, recovery on comeback is a million set of choices, million choices incrementally adding to your comeback.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:49.679
But to snap, you just need one choice.
00:37:49.920 --> 00:38:02.800
And whether it is an academic failure or a relational failure or a financial failure or some kind of an existential emptiness that drives you to that point of no return, you're only one choice away.
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:17.039
And it is at that time either providence works, as in my case, you know, God sent some students from the nearby engineering college to drag me out in time from the path of an oncoming train.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:32.400
But had it been not for those students who just took me home, kind of brainwashed me, and continued to just speak words of encouragement for me, my life would have been, I would have been a forgotten footnote in history by now.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:41.199
My I dread sometimes to think of all the possibilities that subsequently got uncovered when I started fighting back.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:47.199
So, rock bottom, you're only one choice away, but comeback is a series of choices.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:51.599
So for me, the transformation did not happen overnight.
00:38:52.320 --> 00:39:01.840
When somebody says he made a comeback, the first point is getting that alignment back and saying, I want to fight.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:10.400
You see, when you make that single big choice and saying, I'll fight again, that's when you are on the path to come back.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.760
It may take a few more million steps to get to the mountaintop again.
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:21.280
But once you've got up from rock bottom, the only way is you're going up.
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:32.639
Because you made that pivotal turning point kind of a choice to say, I will fight, I will survive, I will not give up, I will not surrender, I will not quit.
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:43.440
To me, comeback begins at that pivotal choice, and it's linked to again your what have you been feeding your mind, your spirit all along.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:53.440
The world tells us that we are not having any inherent value, you only possess value to the degree you achieve.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.639
That's why young people get disillusioned when they don't have much achievements going their way.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:12.239
If you remove the label of achievements and you say you possess inherent worth, wealth, inherent value, inherent dignity, then you are detaching the achievements from the individual.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:13.840
You're talking potential.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:22.239
You see, alignment is always a function of how much you believe you possess as potential to contribute to the world.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:29.760
Sometimes that potential may take a long time to come out in the form of performance or contribution or value.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:37.119
But just that residual belief that you possess potential, that you have inherent value is the starting point.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.480
That's what I tell young people wherever I go.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.039
I did not see that inherent potential when I was about to commit suicide.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.760
I started seeing external validation.
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:51.679
So Surreel, uh sorry to interrupt you.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:12.079
You mentioned that when you wanted to commit suicide in 1989, would you mind taking me to that moment where you were what this is really important because we are seeing a lot hundreds of thousands of suicides now all over the world on an annual basis?
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.400
I want to see what is the emotional state when a person is in that.
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:21.440
First is real confusion.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.800
Confusion that does anyone care?
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.480
Does anyone care?
00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:40.480
See, often in suicide prevention circles, they say an attempt to commit suicide is a cry for help, is a cry for conversation, is a is a cry for attention.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.840
Does anyone see me as valuable?
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.199
Does anyone care enough to think of me?
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:47.679
Right?
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:49.920
That that cry for attention.
00:41:50.239 --> 00:42:03.199
I thought if I commit suicide or I I ended my problems, some things around me, me will change, and maybe my siblings and everybody else will have a better life after I go.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:12.239
Because when that heartbreak happened, it just it was one of those, you know, teenage crushes or whatever, you know, puppy love they call, right?
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.719
When that happened, I thought I'll I'm not loved at all.
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:18.719
Nobody will ever love me.
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:20.719
Feelings of isolation.
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:34.880
Which unfortunately, those feelings of isolation are unfortunately in Hollywood and as well as Bollywood, it's glamorized in like movies like allows allow me to say that movies like Dave Das and all that is glamorized.
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:36.800
Glamorized, totally, totally.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.800
Nobody says, you know, it's not movie success.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.639
You know, nobody says, let her go, you'll find somebody better, right?
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.920
Nobody, it's not, it's not politically correct, right?
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:54.480
So so the ability for you to hear truths about yourself, and that's where I struggle.
00:42:54.559 --> 00:43:06.480
Even I have a young son who's just graduated college, we need to be able to identify that not every student will make it to Ivy League.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:12.320
Not every young person will make it to corporate echelons, right?
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:24.800
Not everyone has a gift, but if you can find your place under the sun, you know, one of my favorite writers uh in American literature is a writer by name Horatio Alger.
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.199
He was around the same contemporary of Mark Twain and so on, right?
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.360
Horatio Alger's stories have a very unique angle to it.
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:46.719
Every character of Horatio Alger rises to some degree of success, but not stupendous spectacular success that you expect to see in movies.
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:57.519
In other words, they come from modest backgrounds, they have their own set of struggles, and then they go achieve to a modicum of success, and they live happily ever after.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.119
Much like real life, right?
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:20.320
All of us will ever make it to the, not many people will make it to the covers of Fortune or Forbes or but like a Horatio Alger story, the moment I discover that God made me for a purpose, and like a Horatio Alger story character, I will get to some degree of success, and that's okay.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:20.960
Right?
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:34.880
I may not become the best and the brightest and the shiniest star on the firmament, but I will shine bright as far as I am allowed to based on how God created me as a star, right?
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:47.199
So to to when you find the true North, when you find that that's maybe the best place and that put tremendous freedom on my shoulders because pressure is lifted off.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.480
I'm no longer thinking I should become the superlative adjectives.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:53.280
No need.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:54.079
Right?
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:13.280
So the comeback for me began in that suicide moment to say, look, I'm running away, but maybe God has created me to be a fighter to help my family survive, to help my mom survive, to help my siblings survive this crisis.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:28.320
When I saw that switch from being a victim to a shaping personality, someone who can make a dent in my family's fortunes and the future, my struggle began then, Dr.
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:40.159
It gave me a purpose, it gave me a tremendous so that loneliness, that confusion, that anger, that slowly it was not overnight.
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:47.760
Obviously, I still was mad at my father for not, you know, finding something and getting us back on the track or something.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:54.559
But because I started so early, and that's where comebacks are powered by the right kind of people, you know.
00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:00.320
Right kind of people you need to have voices that speak courage into your life.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.519
You need to have voices that will tell you you can do it.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.400
Because there are enough people who will say you can't do it.
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.719
There are the crazy ones who will come along and say, Of course you can do it.
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:16.480
In fact, a friend of mine said, if you are not guaranteed success, I don't know who else will be guaranteed success.
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:21.679
Because he was saying you've got the right attitude, you're willing to work hard.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:26.079
I mean, you've got all the ingredients that are necessary for a success.
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:27.039
You will make it.
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:31.760
And when somebody says you will make it, you walk around with such confidence.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:36.239
And the word encouragement has courage built into it.
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:41.440
So when you encourage somebody, you are literally pouring courage into that person's life.
00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:55.760
And so when I got the right kind of encouragement, Doc, that confusion, that anxiety, that fear of the future, all that got replaced by faith, faith in myself, faith in God's plan for our lives, faith in the universe.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:04.800
I would trust everybody, I would travel, I would just go to wherever life would take me, with almost fearless faith.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:09.360
You know, they were then the that quitting mindset slowly dissipated.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.800
And I said, you know, I will never do this again.
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:17.360
I will die fighting, but I will never compromise, quit, or surrender.
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:22.000
That's that was the moment of that uh lonely moments in my journey.
00:47:22.400 --> 00:48:00.880
So the the one of the one of the things when person is at the uttermost despair is isolation and shame and not having any option to, as in your example, completely then transcending it, having a purpose, having a meaning, and also having a lot of encouraging and nurturing connections is the antidote to to being in that rock bottom situation, and now from there you had a great comeback.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.719
Now you are helping people who are on suicide watch and you have got working for this charity.
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:20.559
So what is this something you had planned, or it just came to your came that basically destiny brought you there that now you want to help people who are in this kind of similar situation?
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:28.159
It's it's crazy how you know when you're just open and observant, God or universe sends things your way.
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:36.159
The way I heard about this suicide prevention organization was I was driving my motorbike, and right in front of me was an ambassador car.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.559
Back in those days, ambassador cars used to be there.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:41.360
There was a sticker on the bumper sticker on the back.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:46.880
It said, Depressed, suicider, or lonely, call Sahai and the phone number.
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:48.960
In those days we had landlines, right?
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:54.800
And so I just memorized the number, went to my office because those days we didn't have cell phones.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.000
Went to my office and I called that number and said, Look, I just saw your uh sticker.
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.880
My name is Sunil, and and I'm uh 19 years old.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.159
I want to be a volunteer in this organization.
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.480
They said, Oh, we are looking for volunteers.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:12.239
Give us your details, and then there.
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:24.159
I must tell you, the three years that I was there in that organization from the time around 19 to 2021, those were the most formative years of my emotional maturity.
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:35.039
Here I was, a 19-year-old, imagine sitting in front of a couple, married couple, maybe five years, seven years, almost like twice my age.
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:41.119
And the couple will ask me, What experience do you have to counsel a married couple?
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.400
And then, of course, we are trained to handle those kinds of questions.
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:51.280
So I'd say, look, my job as a counselor is not to offer you specific marital counseling.
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:57.599
My job is to walk you through the current emotional upheavals you are going through.
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:01.360
So both of you are obviously in a conflict scenario.
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:16.400
I want to hear your story, I want to hear her story, and together the three of us will navigate and dissipate the energy and the conflict and see if you can walk out of this meeting room with some degree of clarity on why there's this conflict.
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:24.000
So when I offer that kind of a perspective and say, I'm here to listen, back to my suicidal uh situation.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:35.760
If there were people who were willing to sit me down and say, Tell me what's going on, and then just met me with silence, maybe I would have been able to tell them what's going on.
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:49.280
But once I tried that, and then once people saw that I was really behind this smiling, mischievous, naughty face was an emotionally turbulent situation, they started paying more attention to me.
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:55.679
The next few years till I really matured and came back, they were all being watchful about me.
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:07.039
So it's easy to pay attention after the initial attempt or the warning signals, but it's tough to pick up signals even before somebody goes there.
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:19.920
So if someone is unnaturally quiet, if somebody is not responding to texts, if somebody's not really being themselves, we need our antennae to work over time and pick up those signals.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:25.360
Because shutting down is the first sign of loneliness.
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:34.639
Shutting down is the first sign of something is happening that we need to pick up more and interpret more of this noise that is coming from them.
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:38.239
Yeah, that is that is so true.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.199
That is a pattern we see very commonly.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:49.840
Now, Sunil, I wanted to really dig a little deeper into your corporate experience.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:58.159
I know you have 25 plus years of corporate experience, including working in companies like Tata, where you work for 17 years.
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:09.760
We spoke about suicide, people wanting to end life feeling empty from inside because life is not happening their way, they've not achieved enough.
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:12.320
But now I want to go to the other extreme.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:15.519
I want to have it all.
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:26.800
When you have it all, when you are working with corporates who have got best of cars, best of houses, best of jobs, and there is an emptiness.
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:30.239
What are called the bowling frog phenomena.
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:44.239
And the bowling frog phenomena is when low-grade stressors, which are outside our level of awareness, slowly and slowly are eroding us from inside.
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.039
Have you seen this kind of phenomena in your corporate life?
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:49.920
Yes.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:50.719
Yes.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:53:00.000
In fact, some of the most um stressed-out individuals are these highly paid, highly achieving executives.
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:20.559
And I always found very interesting that the very people who have solved multi-million dollar problems and multi-hundreds of people teams sometimes don't pause long enough to ask how they are doing, right?
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:31.039
And so at some point, that manic obsession towards achievements and accomplishments puts you on a path that is almost self-destructive.
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:38.719
You may not destroy yourself, but certainly everybody around you will start feeling the pains.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:53.199
If you're a toxic, high achievement-oriented and driven person, watch out for your inner circle of teams at work, inner circle of family, inner circle of friends.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:54:02.159
Because you can't have that kind of a laser-like focus if you're concentrating on all the roles that you play.
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:14.079
Either you're dysfunctional at home or you're dysfunctional to the inner circle of teams, because you're it's always about me and always about myself, right?
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:30.719
So I'm not passing a value judgment, but one of the reasons corporate arenas have become toxic battlefields is because of this manic dog eat dog world kind of a culture, manic competitiveness.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:37.280
Uh, they pay lip service to teamwork, but teams are burning at both ends.
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:50.159
They say they talk about meritocracy, but only a handful are picked and promoted based on whims and fancies without a transparent way of measuring performance.
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:54.639
So the corporate world is not the utopia that we make it out to be.
00:54:54.800 --> 00:55:02.960
I know of far too many broken leaders who are pushed, pushed, driven, driven, almost to the point of being tired.
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:07.840
Uh great accomplishments financially resounding.
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:22.800
Um, you have all the shiniest of gadgets to display, big homes, all that is great, but that feeling of misalignment, that feeling that maybe there's more to success uh than just mere accomplishments, right?
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:33.760
So the people who have discovered their true alignment, their true passion, their true ikigai are the ones who are really flourishing.
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:46.239
For example, I decided very early that sales is not going to be my long-term career, and I moved into creative fields like advertising, PR, and corporate communications.
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.000
Then it was no longer feeling like work.
00:55:50.800 --> 00:56:06.159
Because it it was a passion of my childhood to be in the creative uh environment of coming up with copy, coming up with creative words, using words as a means of creative communication.
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:15.280
Because I aligned my passions, the misalignment I felt when I was in sales completely got eliminated.
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.800
I was feeling that icky guy kind of a thing.
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:30.880
And that boiling frog kind of a thing is you you you talk to some of these executives and ask them to take some time off and switch off and be human, you'll find it.
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:33.679
It's as if you're taking away their pacemaker.
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:35.599
Right?
00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:36.719
Why is it?
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:42.559
Because their identity comes from this relentless treadmill of achievements.
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:48.639
Today, if I get hit by a bus, I should say I've lived well, I live fully.
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:53.920
And that's why I never postpone any opportunity to dare think of a daring adventure.
00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:00.159
We went to Antarctica and we jumped off the ship uh into the polar plunge, right?
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:01.599
I see water.
00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:06.880
It's why would you postpone such an opportunity, right?
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:20.079
Again, not to post it on Facebook or Insta and Tampa just no, it is living in that moment fully that you've trained for, worked hard, just go and get the best of experiences.
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.599
There was not one person I did not talk to on the ship.
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:28.079
I tried to make conversations with everybody, get to know their stories.
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:32.639
I met such fascinating people, and Akash will tell you as well.
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:36.159
The kind of people I met, I will cherish for the rest of my life.
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:37.280
What stories?
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:44.320
And yeah, I don't know if I you know brought them any joy, but I came back certainly elevated and elated.
00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:44.800
Why?
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:53.599
Because I said to myself that I will do this, it has nothing to do with professional success, nothing to do with my mission.
00:57:53.920 --> 00:58:03.599
But someone somewhere will say, if a guy in his 50s can take good care of his body like that, I should certainly be doing so.
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:08.559
And if a life is transformed, somebody gets a spark of inspiration, I will do it.
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:17.199
So the world of corporate executives, the world, in fact, now anxiety is the new epidemic that is driving people with the advent of AI.
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:19.280
People are scared to death.
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:20.239
What will happen?
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:38.639
And that's where if they had avocations outside of work, if they had a healthy set of relationships that are thriving, then you'll not worry about your future because then you'll know your community's got you, your family's got you, you've invested in everybody, you are you are at peace.
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:40.719
That the community will look out for you.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:47.920
And and if you didn't, and all your life you just were manically swimming in your own lane, then you look around, there's nobody.
00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:59.760
So the corporate world is now a very lonely place, a very anxious place, and then some something's gotta give, and it'll push many people into dysfunctional outcomes soon.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.360
I'm worried.
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:09.519
One of the strategies to deal with is uh is to have a purpose, as you you and we have talked about.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:21.039
Other is having multiple identities and a lot of interest out of work, and also you mentioned earlier during our conversation is having a deep faith.
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:24.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:44.239
If faith again, um we we come from India, we are a very religious people, so for many of us, faith is an integral part of our life, and we learn from our grandparents, we learn from our parents of how we our lives are merely a channel of blessing for others.
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:48.239
And to that degree, I'm so grateful for my Indian heritage, you know.
00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:51.039
I'm so proud of what we teach our children, right?
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:56.960
Right from our early days, you know, we are surrounded by these traditions, rituals, and so on.
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.400
Growing up as a child, for me, church was a non-negotiable.
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:04.880
You can't say, Oh, I had a tough week, I don't want to, I want to skip church.
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:09.039
No, my parents would just say that's not a negotiable, boss.
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:17.039
So, so for me, even today as an immigrant living in in the United States, two things are non-negotiable during the week.
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:18.000
7 p.m.
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:26.239
Eastern, we get a program called Jeopardy, which is a quiz kind of a program where you're tested for your knowledge.
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:29.360
And Sunday, 10 o'clock, we are at church.
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:36.239
So our schedule is almost again, mental, Jeopardy tests your knowledge and spiritual.
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:40.079
On Sunday, you go back to recharge and refresh yourself, right?
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:49.199
Um, of course, physical fitness, everybody um yeah, my when I ran marathons, I ensured my older boy ran a couple of half marathons.
01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:53.679
My wife ran a marathon after delivering our second baby half marathon.
01:00:53.920 --> 01:01:05.199
So physical fitness depends on different seasons of life, but the ability to have that deep-rooted anchors, your faith is a major part of it.
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:15.039
Because someday, see, one of the reasons that uh I'm so conscious of giving back to the world is not to be this goody-goody guy that gets appreciation and all that.
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:15.599
No.
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:23.039
My way of measuring my life is I don't just want to be successful, but I want to be faithful.
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:27.280
Faithful ka matlab kya, what is what does the word faithful mean?
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:31.280
You are doing it whether people are watching or not.
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:40.880
For example, going back to that car salesman example that I said, I could have just treated that as another just a business professional transaction.
01:01:41.920 --> 01:02:00.800
But I took time to just speak words of courage into his life, my wife and I, because when we stand in the presence of God when we die, God will ask us look, I sent you one guy in your path who was grieving after his lost son, and you just walked casually by.
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:11.519
I need to account for such opportunities where maybe God is wanting to spend, send encouragement his way using me and my wife.
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:15.760
It was not a chance encounter, no, it's God's plan that we are supposed to have met.
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:20.320
So I I try to, I put aside my own petty, pity parties.
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:24.880
Sometimes I'm not in the best of moods, sometimes I'm irritated, sometimes I'm annoyed.
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:29.199
But I will never let go of an opportunity to see Rikisika.
01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:41.360
And one of the reasons uh I I pick up on these things is as I'm spending more time, you know, as people we are always drawn to fun activities, right?
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:46.159
But fun activities, after a while, they fatigue you, they tire you.
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:52.960
You see somebody sitting quietly in a corner, they have something going on in their life.
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:56.079
You go to them and say, Hey, is there anything bothering you?
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.440
Do you want to talk about it?
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:01.760
That costs for a sensitive spirit.
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:06.480
You only feel it in your heart first and then you you discover it later.
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:17.440
So, to me, the ability for to be faithful to all the people I meet, to all the opportunities I get to lift up people is a function of my faith.
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:27.360
Because someday I don't want to stand in the presence of God and say, I'm sorry I messed up because I was too busy dancing, I was too busy missing out on other things.
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:32.559
Oh so so that that's where my orientation to serve others comes, Dr.
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:33.119
Ash.
01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:41.840
That is so important to give to others, and that comes ultimately comes back to us.
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:42.480
Yeah.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:47.280
Because as we say, in the Western Hemisphere, what can I give to anyone, right?
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:51.599
I mean, other than somebody is in financial need, some charity you'll do.
01:03:51.840 --> 01:04:00.480
But a kind word, an encouraging word, it might just change their day, change their mood, change their trajectory, who knows?
01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:08.639
So I'm always saying, um, even in New Jersey, New Jersey is one of the few states where there are others to pump our gas.
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:15.840
In many of the other 48 states, um, other than Portland, there people have to pump their own gas.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:21.119
So anytime somebody comes and just in that chance encounter, I try to ask their name.
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:26.719
If they are a student, I tell them to be faithful in their education, stay strong.
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.599
You never know what battles they are fighting.
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:38.400
And just for that short encouragement, it's not gonna cost me much except just being not absorbed in my own problems.
01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:40.639
As an EAK, I don't have problems, right?
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:44.880
Every one of us we are fighting some mountain or the other.
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:49.519
But in the process, let's egg each other, let's cheer each other, let's lift each other.
01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:56.159
That's like when you are doing like when you're doing the marathon, we are we are all we are in this together.
01:04:56.559 --> 01:05:04.719
So that that feeling of that camaraderie and helping and inspiring and lifting each other is really very important.
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:05.599
Yeah.
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:08.719
See, the word humility comes to my mind now.
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:11.679
You might say, what has humility got to do with this?
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.960
The root word for humility is hummus.
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:18.480
Hamas means from the earth.
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:25.519
You and I are dug from the earth, we are made from mud, dust to dust, they say, right?
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.000
We we go back into the earth.
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:42.159
If you have that orientation key, boss, no matter how wealthy you are, no matter how super successful you are, I'm also banawa, we are all going to be in the same common destiny.
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:47.119
But in the meantime, let's make life easy for each other.
01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:57.280
In fact, there's a very nice quote by I think Mary Oliver, I'm not certain, who says, Ah, what is life meant to be except to make life easier for the other?
01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:58.079
It's so true.
01:05:58.320 --> 01:05:59.280
But what do we end up doing?
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.559
We may Life is hard for each other, right?
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:08.800
So, so to have that kind of a perspective and say, you know what, just be humble about it.
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:20.960
In fact, I I really this is a struggle for me because I by nature would like to push myself and stretch myself, but to back down and be humble is not natural.
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:27.679
But many life experiences have made me so humble that I don't take anything for granted.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.840
I don't take tomorrow for granted.
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:31.599
Because who's seen tomorrow?
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:39.199
So, with that orientation, I go and walk around saying any day six feet above the ground is a great day.
01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:42.960
And I was very, very philosophical.
01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:53.920
Every day you wake up, every day you wake up, we have to feel that gratitude that we have got another day of life.
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:54.400
Yeah.
01:06:54.639 --> 01:07:08.639
So uh Sunil, uh, your uh story, really uh an inspiring and a humbling story, is uh story today of millions of people around the world.
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:22.079
You know, one of the Gallups studies showed that the burnout at work is up to 70 to 80 percent in all countries, all continents around the world.
01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:26.400
So it's not just one person going through it, the negative and toxic emotions.
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:40.320
And your st your journey, I would say the ultimate story of the boiling frog journey when people are so depleted that they don't see uh uh a way through.
01:07:40.639 --> 01:07:47.199
So do you have a framework where people who are in their rock bottom, which you could share?
01:07:47.280 --> 01:08:06.079
I know you are called as a come back, come back guru, and I I would love for you to share with the listeners that if they are at their that simply the rock bottom, what is what is the journey they should do and what is the starting point?
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:17.199
Great question, great question, and and and thankful because this is one topic that I've really studied and reflected uh in the light of my own experiences.
01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:27.920
Uh by no means I'm a guru the way the world sees it, but you know, if you failed so many times, you have some experience in in uh in coming coming back.
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:37.840
So for me, there is a there's a threefold um framework, so to speak, that I personally applied and it really worked well for me.
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:40.640
The first one is movement.
01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:49.119
You know, in your physical world, in your world of physiology and in the world of medicine, you talk about movement being medicine.
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:50.720
Movement is medicine.
01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:53.119
And I think it's absolutely accurate.
01:08:53.920 --> 01:09:16.079
Borrowing from the medical world, I try to say to people look, if you're stuck in this blaise kind of a feeling where you are not able to move out from the morass of helplessness, depletion, rock bottom kind of a feeling, the first thing you need to try and do is physical movement.
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:19.840
Walk, change of location, change of scenery.
01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:21.600
Just get out of that place.
01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:26.399
If need be, get out of the college for some time, get out of that town for some time.
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:30.000
Movement allows you a shift in perspective.
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:42.000
And for me, that happened when I took a six-month sabbatical and went to Chennai, another city from where I lived, and and re-evaluated my life.
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:51.520
And in those six months, change of location, change of perspective, brand new set of people, different voices speaking into my life, my life turned.
01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:57.279
So first element is movement shift in location.
01:09:58.079 --> 01:09:59.840
That's why sabbaticals are important.
01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:06.399
That's why you need to refill the lamp that is burning within you so that you can burn brighter.
01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:11.840
You can't light up others if you're running on fumes and empty.
01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:23.520
And so for me, that refilling comes partly from my family, partly from my faith, partly from the community, and revisiting my own life's mission, right?
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:25.199
So that's the first principle.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:30.479
Your physical change of location, physical movement is your medicine.
01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:37.039
The second one is that gives you momentum to make those first choices.
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:44.960
Again, assuming that you are not able to move, what are some small wins that you can aim for to get momentum?
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:45.680
Right?
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.640
The first is movement, second is momentum.
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:57.119
What are some things that I can do to just get that little bit of spark, little bit of momentum in my fight to come back, right?
01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:04.239
Um when you run a marathon, when you train for something big, you know, I must share a story.
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:07.279
Amsterdam Marathon 2016.
01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:16.239
At mile six, I made a rookie mistake of trying to keep up with a colleague who's 15 years younger than me.
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:22.319
And as a runner, you will know that is disaster.
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:25.359
Mile six, I had a hamstring injury.
01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:26.800
Mile six.
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:34.079
So one option was pull out, report that your DNF injury limping.
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:43.600
But I told myself, I didn't travel all the way from New York, New Jersey to Amsterdam to quit at mile six.
01:11:44.239 --> 01:11:45.359
I cannot.
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:50.479
So movement shift in location happened when I went to the medical tent.
01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:56.479
They said, quit, we can call your cab, you can go back to the stadium, pick your stuff and go.
01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:59.520
I said, No, I didn't come this far to quit.
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:03.039
I said, let me see how long I can go to walk.
01:12:03.199 --> 01:12:12.239
I removed my pullover, the wind sheeter, tied it tight around my thigh, and started limping.
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:16.560
Movement, momentum, movement, momentum, movement, momentum.
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:20.399
Do you know it took an extra hour for me to finish?
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:26.239
People, even spectators who were applauding, were saying, Why don't you quit?
01:12:26.479 --> 01:12:29.039
If you're if you're in so much in pain, why don't you quit?
01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:30.880
I said, No, I'm not quitting.
01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:35.920
I finished the Amsterdam Marathon, 20 miles of pain.
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:42.000
All because I took small steps in the direction for momentum.
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:49.359
And then the final one is first is movement, second one is momentum, the third one is memories.
01:12:50.000 --> 01:13:01.119
Recall past victories, recall, relook at your past trophies, celebrate your past wins, and those memories fuel your momentum and movement.
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:05.199
So these three are essential for any comeback.
01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:10.640
There are there could be more, but these three are basic starting for any comeback.
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:23.359
You know, if you are feeling completely dried up and empty, the best place to stay is remember first of all that you're six feet above the ground, great place to be in.
01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:25.119
That's the bonus.
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:28.720
From there, look back at how far you've come.
01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:36.960
If you're very early in your life and you're you're high schooler, you're in college, look at all the battles you fought in the past.
01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:43.119
And maybe it's one of your first major battles, but you have overcome certain things to get here.
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:46.079
So look at all the memories, collect all those memories.
01:13:46.239 --> 01:13:50.960
If you have a great family, think of that memory, think of all the family support.
01:13:51.199 --> 01:14:03.279
So if you start looking at your setback with a grateful attitude and say, look, there are some people, my situation is bad enough.
01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:06.640
It's the worst diagnosis, worst prognosis.
01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:08.560
I know it is bad.
01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:16.479
You know, um, on Wednesday, two days ago, today we are in Friday, two days ago, my wife and I met a young man, 22-year-old.
01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:19.199
His father is diagnosed with fourth-stage cancer.
01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:21.279
He's got two more months to live.
01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:23.039
Our heart sank.
01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:36.000
But we have nothing but positive affirmations, faith affirmations to give that young young child to say, I mean, 22 is even younger than my son.
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:38.560
So our my heart just went out to that child.
01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:50.960
We just said, hang in there, relish every moment, speak words of strength to your father, make sure you absorb as much of quality time with him, whatever else, right?
01:14:51.359 --> 01:15:04.560
And that boy, that young man, will be so much stronger if he's able to handle this loss, this impending uh time bomb that they are sitting on.
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:06.239
But think of it.
01:15:06.479 --> 01:15:14.960
The flip side could be the dad is coming home, a truck rams into it, overnight their life's changed.
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:23.199
As opposed to a two-month preparation period where you're slowly going through the stages of grief, grappling with it, and saying, Why?
01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:24.800
Why is such a young man?
01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:26.800
Is just about 60.
01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:28.880
It's unfair.
01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:29.920
Unfair it is.
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.319
That's why death is called the great equalizer, disease is called the great equalizer, it respects no one.
01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:41.359
Accidents happen all the time, that's why they are called accidents, they turn our life upside down.
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:48.880
So when you hit those moments, these three things are essential: movement, momentum, and memories.
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:53.119
They those three give you enough spark.
01:15:53.279 --> 01:15:57.920
In fact, I have a full-length uh abbreviation for the word spark.
01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:02.720
The the the the S in it stands for stimulation.
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:04.880
What keeps you stimulated?
01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:06.640
Go back to that source.
01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:13.840
For me, even if I'm in the worst situation, if I know somebody else is in need, I get stimulated.
01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:17.199
I'd love to just offer whatever I could.
01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:20.640
If nothing else, just give them the gift of my presence.
01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:25.600
You know, sometimes we forget how our presence itself can be a gift, right?
01:16:25.760 --> 01:16:27.760
Some people think I don't have anything to gift.
01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:34.159
I'm an introvert, I can't speak, I can't speak eloquently, I don't have the right words, I feel awkward in these situations.
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:40.000
Yes, these situations are awkward, but just you being there is the greatest gift.
01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:46.880
That you cared enough to be there to see that person in that point of need is a gift to that person.
01:16:47.119 --> 01:16:52.880
That's why I tell young people give the gift of your attention when I'm teaching you.
01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:56.720
Because when you pay attention to me, you're actually giving me a gift.
01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:00.640
So back to the topic of what are the what is the framework?
01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:04.399
It's can we just can we just complete the can we just complete the spark?
01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:06.239
Yeah, can we just complete the spark?
01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:08.640
It'll take uh take forever.
01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:12.399
We will have the spark for the next episode.
01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:23.119
Um the the each of that letter is stimulation p for uh performance of how do you go back into performance mode?
01:17:23.439 --> 01:17:26.720
A is for what has been your aspiration all along.
01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:29.680
So you go along uh into multiple things.
01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:44.880
But what I piece together for my podcasts, and uh I'm I'm doing is uh a full-on coaching program on resilience, is how do you come back when the odds seem to be stacked against you, right?
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.960
You go back to this ability to to your core calling.
01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:54.960
What what is it that you were naturally gravitating to as a child, right?
01:17:55.199 --> 01:18:11.439
You know, in India, in South Asian cultures, in some Asian cultures, the child's interest might be something, but the parents might just push us in a different direction because of employability, high performance opportunities, high revenue opportunities, right?
01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:19.359
But when you were a child, nobody said, no, no, you only play Lego because Lego will give you STEM engineering mindset.
01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:21.680
You play Lego because they're fascinating, right?
01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:26.560
So, what gives you those aspirations as a child?
01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:29.920
What were the roots behind those aspirations?
01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:31.199
Why did we give up?
01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:36.880
You know, we all grew up wanting to be train drivers and bus conductors and firefighters and stuff.
01:18:37.119 --> 01:18:39.199
Where did those dreams go, right?
01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:45.760
So now when you're in this mid-peak career, when I encourage people to go back, many of them actually do.
01:18:46.000 --> 01:18:49.039
Many of them start volunteering as EMS volunteers.
01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:55.600
In in the United States, we have the ability for us to go and serve as volunteers as EMS volunteers.
01:18:55.840 --> 01:19:01.279
So you go with the medical um you know, first responders team as a volunteer and support them.
01:19:01.439 --> 01:19:08.720
Uh, I go into the prison uh because, again, you know, I want to see them for who they are, for their inherent wealth.
01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:20.159
Now, uh many of my corporate colleagues found it very difficult, almost puzzling to understand why I spent time on a good Friday evening or on a good Wednesday evening inside a prison.
01:19:20.399 --> 01:19:28.640
When I go through a prison, you get all these, you know, massive mission impossible kind of a movie set kind of a feeling, right?
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:39.760
In fact, one of the prisons that I go to in Rave, New Jersey, is actually where the Ocean 11 scenario was filmed, real-life uh uh factoid for you.
01:19:40.079 --> 01:19:43.600
So why do I go through these difficult and dark places?
01:19:43.840 --> 01:19:59.199
I could easily be just avoiding those areas, but no, as someone who's championing the cause of the underdog, asking people to look within and find their potential, these people deserve second chances as much as others do.
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:06.479
One friend of mine actually got into a bitter argument saying, I don't need, I think you guys are overdoing it.
01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:13.680
Those people were caught doing something wrong, they're paying the price, you don't have to show any tenderness or compassion to them.
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:18.720
You're a good person, but I, in my view, they are serving their time, they got what they deserved.
01:20:18.880 --> 01:20:20.880
Actually, they're right too, right?
01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:25.039
I mean, if you're serving time, it's not unfairly you are convicted, right?
01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:26.640
You did something wrong.
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:34.640
But person has a chance to read the future when he gets out.
01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:38.079
You're talking about how life will be when he comes out.
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:52.159
Yes, imagine a 16-year-old, 17-year-old caught on drug trafficking or drug peddling or something, doing a crime of passion in a heat fit of rage, 30 years gone, at 47, 48, they're coming back into the world.
01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:55.920
They have no clue what has changed in the last 30 years.
01:20:56.239 --> 01:21:04.960
Do you know when your setting of prison reminds me of the movie Shawshank Redemption?
01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:09.279
A remarkable movie uh for resilience.
01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:18.479
Now, Sunil, we are coming to the top of the hour, and uh we will uh it's been a really inspiring conversation with you.
01:21:18.640 --> 01:21:25.439
I I could really go on and on, and we will complete the we will complete the spark in the next episode.
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:32.399
But what I would just like to ask one final question before we go.
01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:47.600
You have had a remarkable exceptional journey of resilience, I would say beyond resilience, what in the world of psychology we call as post-traumatic growth.
01:21:48.000 --> 01:22:09.039
Now, if Sunil today was so accomplished, who's helped thousands and tens of thousands of people around the world, like the most beautiful and inspiring experiences you were sharing, how you help any person you meet.
01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:23.840
Now, if the sunil today was to go back and meet the sunil of 1989, what message are you going to give to that sunil?
01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:25.199
What would you tell him?
01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:27.119
Great question.
01:22:27.279 --> 01:22:28.159
Thank you for that question.
01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:29.600
I've never been asked this question.
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:38.720
I I I would probably say, don't measure your life on an annual basis, measure your life in decades.
01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:43.840
Don't measure your life on an annual basis, measure your life in decades.
01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:58.319
Meaning at that time I was still in my teens, and so I was too harsh on myself, too harsh on my parents, too harsh on um on circumstances around me.
01:22:58.479 --> 01:23:05.680
But if I'd waited 10 more years, by the time I came to 28, 29, my life had turned around.
01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:09.039
And a decade is a good way of looking at life.
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:25.760
In fact, uh, I'm uh in my mid-60s, uh mid-50s, and when I do an analysis of my past and going back to the 3M framework of movement medicine and memories, these memories allow you to look back and say, how far you've come.
01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:26.560
How far you've come.
01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:38.239
And if only I could just give myself the gift of patience and said, don't judge yourself so harshly because nothing good came your way at up until that time.
01:23:38.399 --> 01:23:39.920
Give yourself a few more years.
01:23:40.079 --> 01:23:45.920
In fact, in fact, if I had got that advice, then somebody said, just hang in there for three more years.
01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:49.199
My life would have turned because actually in three years it turned.
01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:57.119
I I became a salesman for a sales engineer for an engineering firm that was selling mechanical equipment.
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:01.520
And on company's dime, I would travel all over India.
01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:11.840
And I was 20, 21 years old carrying this engineering equipment and traveling all over this beautiful country called India.
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:16.479
And I'm telling you, most Indians wouldn't have traveled as much as I've traveled in India.
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:23.359
Travel is something which really deepens, strippens you, fills you.
01:24:24.399 --> 01:24:26.960
So imagine one final question.
01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:28.800
One final question.
01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:38.399
Uh when you talked about um your journey, have you the three people who saved your life, were you in touch with them?
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:40.479
And did you go back and thank them?
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:49.119
For uh couple of years, I went back to that engineering college and and and I was able to one I particularly remember one guy.
01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:53.039
I was always grateful to him, but they were all people from the hostel.
01:24:53.119 --> 01:25:01.840
So as soon as the engineering program got over, they went back to their native places and uh you know they are unknown to me now.
01:25:02.079 --> 01:25:06.399
But uh one particular guy, his name is Vinod Singh, I remember his name.
01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:16.800
He he was the guy who really let me go back to the engineering college hostel, uh, play table tennis with them and and just be around.
01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:22.319
Uh you know, it's that you know how hostels are, they don't let strangers come in.
01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:28.720
But here was this guy who would let me come in as his friend and just be around as I was still a young kid.
01:25:28.800 --> 01:25:34.960
I mean, they were a few years older than me, but they would let me come, go, and yes, I was grateful to them.
01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:43.760
And uh subsequently I shared with them that I'm struggling in polytechnic, and then they said, stay the course, you'll do well, and that kind of thing.
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:44.960
Yes, I was grateful to them.
01:25:45.279 --> 01:26:06.319
Sunil, um, it is uh like sometimes even the strangers, the remotest of the strangers, can make such a profound difference in our lives, and sometimes it's just a kind word, a hug, and it can transform the trajectory of the life.
01:26:06.560 --> 01:26:12.239
Well, Sunil, it's been a really honor and a privilege to have you on this show.
01:26:12.479 --> 01:26:20.800
And if the listeners want to find out more about your book and the work, what would be the best portal if you don't mind sharing?
01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:21.680
Sure.
01:26:21.920 --> 01:26:24.560
I have two ways of being um followed.
01:26:24.640 --> 01:26:29.359
Uh, www.sumilrobert.com is my website home.
01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:36.800
But more importantly, in the last six months, we've been building a YouTube channel called Comeback Stories with Sunil Robert.
01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.279
As you can see, I love comeback stories.
01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:41.600
I'm interviewing different folks like uh Dr.
01:26:41.760 --> 01:26:49.520
Ashmar, um, people who have made comeback a or resilience as a theme of their lives.
01:26:49.760 --> 01:27:01.600
I interviewed some achievers, I interviewed uh some um uh folks who are really uh accomplished in life, and what lessons do they have to offer to the world around them?
01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:05.600
So it's great uh that um uh you can follow.
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:08.960
It'll be great if you can spread the word to young people.
01:27:09.119 --> 01:27:10.159
I love young people.
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:18.000
I feel if we give them the benefit of our experience, they may or they may not change it, but at least this it's there as a resource for them.
01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:21.520
So I'd love for I will I will share the link here.
01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:32.800
And um again, Sunil, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, and it's been a real joy to have your transforming stress, and hopefully our paths are going to cross again soon in the future.
01:27:33.119 --> 01:27:33.520
Certainly.
01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:45.279
I want to come back and talk about my Spark framework and uh certainly and thank you for all that you do, and I want to thank uh Ashisha uh uh Akash as well for connecting us.
01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:46.479
Absolutely, guys.
01:27:46.720 --> 01:27:47.199
Absolutely.
01:27:47.600 --> 01:27:48.960
Much much blessings on you.
01:27:49.039 --> 01:27:50.159
Thank you for all your work, thanks.
01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:51.279
Thank you, Sunil.
01:27:53.840 --> 01:27:57.439
If you enjoyed today's episode, we'd greatly appreciate it.
01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:05.279
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01:28:05.600 --> 01:28:11.359
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01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:15.039
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01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:21.359
For more tips and updates, please be sure to check out our social media links in the description box below.
01:28:21.600 --> 01:28:28.159
We can't wait to have you with us next time as we continue this journey towards turning stress into resilience.
01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:33.520
Remember, it's not the stress itself, but how we rise above it that defines our strength.
01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:38.880
So stay resilient and keep thriving, and we will see you next time.
00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.800
Hello friends, and a very warm welcome to Transforming Stress with Dr.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:09.439
Ash.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.400
Are you ready to turn stress into your comfort?
00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.240
For over 30 years now, Dr.
00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:22.000
Ash has worked and gained education across three continents: India, the United Kingdom, and the United States in healthcare.
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:26.960
He's witnessed firsthand how stress can impact our health and our happiness.
00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:28.879
But here's the exciting part.
00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:34.960
He's here to help you transform your stress into a powerful tool for growth and resilience.
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:46.000
Each week, he'll share practical tools and life-changing insights from his books, including The Boiling Frog, to help you manage your stress, find balance, and live a life of purpose.
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.759
Please join us every Friday at 5 pm and let's start turning stress into strength together.
00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:54.479
Now let's dive into today's episode.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.960
Hello friends, welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:00.320
Ash podcast.
00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.520
And today I have a very special guest, Mr.
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:08.640
Sunil Robert from across the pond in from New York City.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:16.079
His journey has been of a massive resilience, a very humbling journey.
00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:21.200
He has helped 10,000 corporate executives.
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:23.840
He had a near-death experience.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:36.959
He was on the brink of suicide, and he turned around his life completely and took his life to the highest heights of the career.
00:01:37.439 --> 00:02:00.640
He's an author, he's a best-selling author of two books, a global executive, he's a TEDx speaker, and most importantly, Sunil's purpose is to inspire thousands of people, young men who are finding themselves in very challenging situations.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.480
His own story is of completely remarkable resilience.
00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:21.360
So beyond his massive achievements, what really drew me to Suril was his beyond imagination, remarkable resilience.
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.400
And not just resilience, I would say beyond resilience.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:35.199
The post-traumatic growth he has demonstrated in his life is really deeply inspiring to me.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:37.919
And I will share with you more how I connected with Sunil.
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.759
Sunil, really I'm delighted to have you on the show, my friend.
00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:42.879
Thank you, Dr.
00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:43.520
Ash.
00:02:43.599 --> 00:03:01.599
Um, it's such a joy to be on your show because when I first heard about you, you'll be surprised to know where I heard about you, and and we will talk about that in one of the farthest uh parts of the world in the continent of Antarctica where Akash and I were running.
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:03.840
That's when I got to know of him.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:25.439
So I call out to Akash for taking a moment to uh introduce us as we have similar passions, similar missions, similar outlook in life of trying to use life's adversities, life's stress factors, and then see how they can be used as tools of transformation.
00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.000
So I'm delighted to be here.
00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:42.159
I I'm from you know you know the the the thing about being at a point of rock bottom or at a point of suicide is every growth accomplishment that comes later is a bonus.
00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:56.560
It's so one of the reasons I live a fearless life is because I know I was at one point at rock bottom, I had nothing to lose because from then on it was everything to gain.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:10.080
So all these accomplishments, they they may not mean much to someone else, but from where I started, it's all a huge bonus, and today's meeting with you is a bonus, and I'm so grateful for that.
00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:11.680
Thank you, Sunil.
00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:30.959
Uh, likewise, um I really share uh your joy, and you mentioned Antarctica, where uh I used to read a lot of uh work from Antarctica by Ernest Sir Ernest Shackleton.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:35.360
And uh there's a book he had written, Leading from the Edge.
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.439
Leading at the Edge, which is about dealing with the absolute crisis.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:52.399
So now that you have mentioned about Antarctica, and you went there for a marathon, which is you went to the harshiest environment to do a marathon there.
00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:00.959
Tell me about your inspiration, and I know you've done around seven, eight, you've done marathons across all the continents of the world.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:03.600
Take me through that journey.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:04.399
Yeah.
00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.240
So I was not a natural athlete like you both.
00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:13.120
Uh for the benefit of the listeners of this podcast.
00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:13.680
Dr.
00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.040
Ash and his brother Akash are natural athletes.
00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:27.600
Uh uh Akash, his younger brother, actually played cricket with two of India's biggest names of his era, Sachin Tendulkar and Vinath Kambli and stuff.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:33.680
When he showed me those pictures of having played cricket with those legends, my jaw dropped.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.160
Because I am one of those who's not naturally gifted athlete.
00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:46.560
But then, in a very remarkable way, you know, it's actually linked to all this topic of resilience.
00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.560
About 25 years ago, I was involved in a motorbike accident.
00:05:51.199 --> 00:06:10.319
And a big piece of my right knee was surgically removed, and the doctor's prognosis was for the rest of your life, you'll sort of live with an incapacitated knee, and you will not be able to do what normal things that people can do.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:24.399
For example, run, jog, squat, lift, anything that involves knees and and your legs as your uh as your starting point, you will not be able to do.
00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:29.839
Which sort of put me in a bit of a spiral of depression because at that time I was still single.
00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:40.560
I had this flowing long hair, reasonably well-built body, and I was in the I was what people in India called tall, dark, and handsome at that point.
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:52.240
Just so so so to be attacked at at my knee and and have a bit of my self-esteem robbed seemed very unfair to me.
00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.920
And for the next 10 years, I went off the rails as far as my health was concerned.
00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.720
I was eating badly, I could I lived with a carefree attitude.
00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:19.120
And when you and we in in South India, we we are rice eaters, and if you consume tremendous amounts of viryani and rice, your your belly starts getting disproportionate to your overall limbs and structure.
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.199
So I was obese.
00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:34.079
Uh, and the doctors looked at my numbers and said, Man, you have cardiac in your family history, you have blood pressure in your family history, you have you've got a lot of things going against you, you've got to do something about it.
00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:40.480
So at the ripe old age of 42, I really needed to review my life.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:47.519
And the first time I tried to do something cardiac was on a treadmill, I could not even last for a minute.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:08:00.079
The reason is not because I did not have the stamina, but because I was scared of falling off the treadmill because I could not hold on to the balance of running on a treadmill.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:08.879
So from there, within about four or five months, I was able to do the Philadelphia half marathon in the fall of 2010.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.480
What a transformation story it was.
00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:20.319
And when I posted it on Facebook, I was struck by the number of people who said, wow, what an inspiring story.
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.959
What it, I mean, I didn't think much of it at that time.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:26.639
I thought, you know, I it's I was just reclaiming my own health.
00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:28.959
I was reclaiming my own strength.
00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:33.279
And from that moment, what seemed like an impossibility.
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:34.320
So the Dr.
00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:41.679
Ramo, the orthopedic surgeon who removed my uh knee, and and he said, forget sports.
00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.320
You will actually have to walk with a cane uh to for the rest of your life.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:09:04.080
And and I'm glad I proved this prognosis wrong because not only was I able to get back my limp, uh uh overcome my limp and get back my gait, the in in the ability to walk straight and walk confidently, I was now getting strength to even jog and slow jog.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:12.320
I by no means I'm a fast runner uh like your brother or any of these three three and a half hour, four-hour uh marathon finishers.
00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:14.960
I am the back of the pack kind of a runner.
00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:26.960
But from there to even do some of the toughest marathons like the Boston Marathon and Tokyo Marathon and most recently Antarctica Marathon is a dream come true.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.960
Who I mean who wouldn't take this kind of a blessing, uh Dr.
00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:31.600
Ash?
00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:42.320
So, with all due respect, um uh with all modesty uh aside, I feel you know, when life throws you melons, you make melon juice, right?
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:45.919
Very, very true.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:58.159
What has this journey of going from almost uh limb-threatening injury to running a marathon?
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:00.639
How much first of all, how much time it took Sunil?
00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:14.320
I trained for about four months to to do the half marathon because obviously I had to really like for example, I remember days when I tried to go for a four or five mile run on a long weekend.
00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:25.440
Um I would run out of juice at mile three or mile four, and I would call my wife and say, Hey, you gotta give bring me water and bring me some Gatorade and give me a ride back home.
00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:37.919
And on a Saturday, she'd be doing some household chores and she'd she'd like to snap her fingers and just say, Okay, what is this newfound addiction that should come and bring me back home and stuff?
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.440
But the journey is the transformation.
00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:48.960
See, in our running circle, there's a saying that says, your four months of preparation is actually your transformation.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.200
The race day is actually a celebration of that transformation.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:56.080
On race day, you are merely there to receive the medal.
00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:00.399
All the hard miles have been put in, all the strength training has been put in.
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:09.039
You are ready because the five hours or four and a half hours or three hours, whatever is your race time, is a celebration race.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:12.399
Because the journey itself is the reward.
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.399
The journey is where you transform.
00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:31.440
So even though I've done about 24 full marathons, I would say in the last 15 years, what I have become and how I have found my physical limits and how I was able to push through those physical limits is a transformation story.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:34.720
And I'm not by any means saying this is a unique story.
00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:48.559
Every marathon runner would agree that it's in that training period, it is in that 300-400 miles you put in in the training that you truly know your limits, truly become who you are.
00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.320
And each race, Dr.
00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.480
Ash, will test you.
00:11:52.639 --> 00:12:03.759
You cannot say, like you say in tennis or any other game, that you've you've got this muscle memory and cumulative experience that will take you through the game.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:10.000
Yes, it works truly in that sense as well, but each marathon tests you.
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:22.960
Each marathon is different, and you you can't carry or transfer your previous experiences into a race day because that race day, the marathon course will test you.
00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:31.120
You respect the course, you put a battle plan together, you execute that battle plan, and then you celebrate at the finish line.
00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:33.919
So for me, the journey is in the transformation.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.480
The journey is in the transformation.
00:12:36.639 --> 00:13:07.759
And I also read uh from your work that in your framework which you share with your listeners, uh, that physical vitality is a very important component when people have a setback in their life, and how to have the breakthrough from that setback, that journey, the physical vitality is a really huge component.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:09.440
Absolutely.
00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:16.960
In fact, though those three elements are the pillars on which you you launch off into this battle against adversity.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.519
Now we must define what adversity is, right?
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:26.399
For example, the management world talks about e-stress, distress, and stress in the middle.
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:32.240
If you're not completely uh being challenged or stretched, you are in e-stress.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:37.360
Or if you're completely pushed to beyond a point, you're in distress.
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:42.720
But there's that happy medium or right in the middle where you're being stressed.
00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:50.559
In fact, just uh a couple of days ago on CrickInfo, there was an interview by Virat Kohli where he said stress is a privilege.
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.559
Pressure is a privilege.
00:13:52.960 --> 00:14:12.799
So there is that right amount of pressure which champion athletes, marathon runners, professionals like you who are constantly spending their life optimizing their hours for maximum impact, there is that right pressure that we need to define.
00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:30.000
So when you are struck with a debilitating kind of a prognosis, either it could be health or relationships breakdown or even existential crisis where you're searching for meaning in your own life, no matter what it is.
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:43.279
If it is physical, then to combat that physical adversity, you need that strength of purpose, the mental cognitive, cognitive bandwidth, or cognitive horsepower.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.080
So those are the three pillars I argue in the TED Talk that I shared.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:55.840
But more importantly, this ability to see things misaligned is is pressure point.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:01.759
Why are some of the most successful people disillusioned with life?
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.720
Why is there that gnawing emptiness in their spirits?
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:07.279
Right?
00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.039
It is misalignment.
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:20.480
What they pursued as a relentless journey towards achievements, the moment they got that achievement, they saw that emptiness that follows.
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:25.679
It's called uh post-Race Day blues or post-accomplishment blues.
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:34.879
You you see it all the time uh after any big event like a World Cup or IPL or any um Super Bowl, for example.
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.919
The days following that, people experience what is called a post-event blues.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:51.519
And the metaphor there is some of your life's most dramatic accomplishments you can look at, and you discover the the following days after the euphoria dies down.
00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.720
Let's take our own Antarctica marathon as an example.
00:15:54.960 --> 00:16:03.279
For weeks and months and years, we've been dreaming about that, and then there is a certain phenomena called post-Antarctica blues.
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:17.279
When you are getting back to terraforma, when you're getting back to the main continent of South America and then subsequently North America, you come home, you you've got this mountaintop experience, and now you're coming down to Earth, terraforma.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:27.039
How do you handle that void, or how do you handle that transition from this dizzying heights to grounding reality, right?
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:34.639
So this ability to see yourself out of alignment, and again, alignment presupposes a standard ahead of you.
00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:41.200
And when I coach leaders, when I train people, I ask them, what is your true north?
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.759
What is the principle by which you are willing to measure your success by?
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.279
Not a defined principle by external sources.
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:55.519
You know, sometimes young children or teenagers and young adults, their success is defined by parents.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:04.799
And sometimes, even after they do all that, they feel disillusioned because they tried everything from an external validation.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.640
And the same is true of us.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.160
What are we pursuing these massive dreams for?
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:18.240
Are you pursuing them to get this social keeping up with the Jones kind of Jones kind of phenomena?
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.359
Or are you truly powered by a purpose?
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:26.559
And that misalignment often causes adversity at different levels.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.319
But just you are a physician, you come from the medical world.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:36.319
So for you, you are a better source of talking about the physical resilience.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:50.640
But for me, I as a non-medical professional, somebody who's just studied resilience as a theme, for me, it's a misalignment between what is a perceived reality versus what is actual, right?
00:17:50.799 --> 00:18:04.079
So in my case, my own journey through my adverse childhood, young days, where I was at that point of giving up to finding that purpose and then aligning myself with that purpose helps me keep going forward.
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:15.440
So I don't either get buoyed up or lifted by these accomplishments or the social media validation or even accomplishments like getting on a podcast like this define me.
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:21.359
They give us a high, they give us joy, they give us some degree of happiness, but I'm not defined by it.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:27.759
Should something crash and burn in the next few days, my identity should not be so shaken up.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:34.559
So alignment and it's linked to who you are as far as your identity is concerned.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:42.480
You know, when we attach our identity to things that can be taken away, then you'll be truly tested when that happens.
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:47.680
Like, like, why do some politicians find it difficult to quit their chair?
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.759
Why do superstar sportspeople find it difficult to retire or give up their space at the right time?
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:59.119
Because they're so caught up in that web of success, they don't know when to go.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:08.480
In fact, uh Sunil Gawaskar said when reporters asked him, Why did you retire so early when you had so much more game in your tank?
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:19.200
He said, It is better better to retire early and let people ask why early than not retire and let people wonder when is he going to quit, right?
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:31.599
So linking all this together, I feel resilience is a function of your ability to find alignment and linked it to your identity.
00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:36.799
And if you're sure of your identity, nothing can stop you.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:46.640
I know many people in this world have only their identity limited to their profession.
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:47.519
Sure.
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:54.799
And if there is anything catastrophic there, they find it very they just fall apart.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:08.559
So any ideas you would like to share here, Sunil, that how one should have multiple areas of our interest, including our profession and outside.
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:22.400
So, like I can say that your identity today is not only a corporate professional, you are also an author, you're also a global executive, you are also a marathoner, you are also a family person.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.559
So when one identity is threatened, you got something else to fall back upon.
00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:30.640
Many, many things else going for you.
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.480
So here I want to define roles that we play in our journey, right?
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:46.880
Among the many roles that we play in our life, at every stage in our life cycle, each role assumes significance, right?
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:54.880
And the ability to hold those roles, multiple roles, in constant tension is a function of your identity.
00:20:55.039 --> 00:21:10.079
For example, very early in my teenage life, I defined my identity as not someone who's seen as a loser as defined by others, or someone who said, this guy will not amount to anything except a rowdy cheater.
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:17.839
I must share with your viewers that when I was in college and I was involved in college politics, I was a pretty rebellious kid.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:32.000
I was involved in group violence, gangs, student politics, getting beaten up by others, beating up others, uh constant visits to the police stations, and and word spreads, right?
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:37.599
People know that you know this this young man is going this down this path.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.720
And many people had given up on me.
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:48.079
And the identity that that was thrust upon me at that stage was he's a future criminal, future rowdy cheater.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.440
But then a dramatic transformation happened in my young years, and that's where my identity really shifted.
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.759
Now, here I want to talk to you about how some of us view our life.
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.480
To be this crazy sprint.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:08.160
And in my second book, Bound to Rise, I actually talk about how life is not a crazy sprint.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.319
You've got to view it like a marathon.
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:13.519
And it you're in it for the long haul.
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.400
You're in it for the long run, so to speak.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:22.319
And in that, I want to talk to you about the many roles you get to play.
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:31.119
And where we come from in Asia, South Asia, India, China, some of it, we see careers in a linear manner.
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.680
But you come to the Western Hemisphere, you don't see careers in a linear manner.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:46.559
Here you see young people very early defining that they're going to be in the non-profit world or they will join an organization dear to their heart and change the world.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:48.480
They're not looking to make money.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:59.200
And of course, there are some young kids who go pursue Ivy League credentials and go into the world of wealth management, banking, finance, high finance, all that fine.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:18.640
But when you see that as immigrant, as an immigrant, I moved from East to the West, I realized that I should be in a position to embrace both worldviews and define my life in such a way that I'm not defined just by my corporate role.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:41.519
And so even when I was at work, like for example, in my last role in TCS, I was able to actually use my God-given talents and gifts and the love of speaking and love of public speaking and training to train more than 40,000 engineers in different client locations, client accounts, and share my knowledge.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.359
Now, I was not paid for that.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:46.240
Of course, they paid for my stay and other stuff.
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:58.480
But my passion to make a difference to the folks around me is a function of how you see your identity, what gifts and talents you possess, and how you can bless the world around.
00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:10.720
See, if I said, look, I want a week time to go out and I want to train some people in Minnesota, where 3M account and Target account, Target Corporation are located.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.960
My company will say, if training is your passion, you better go and do it.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:22.400
But but I said, I'm in marketing, my primary calling is marketing, but I have this gift of teaching.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.759
I love communications, I want to train our people.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:34.799
And through our HR people, I was able to find opportunities where I was not going to be paid extra, but it allowed me an avenue to express myself.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:50.720
So that won tremendous amount of respect from my audience because they saw here was a guy who's not coming because he's paid to, but he's coming because he's he loves this topic and he wants to bless or offer the gift of that talent to me.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:58.880
So audience receptivity was high, and they were taking this content with you know open hearts and minds.
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:04.559
So the ability to link your identity to the many roles you play.
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:10.559
So there I was playing the role of a trainer, but there subsequently in my day job, I am a marketer.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:16.640
I come home, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I go to church, I'm a church member, I'm in the community.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:20.160
In the neighborhood I live, I must tell you a funny story.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:26.640
I every summer I rally all the kids in my neighborhood and say, I'm gonna teach your kids public speaking, right?
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:36.319
Which parent does not want their children to vanish for three, four hours on a given day, on a particular weekend, free babysitting, right?
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:52.960
But the flip side is not only am I imparting these young kids the love of communication and public speaking, I'm telling them this joy in storytelling, the ability to share with each other their stories.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:57.680
And many of these kids grow together because we all live in the neighborhood, right?
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.160
And friendships get deepened.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:04.559
I'm creating an avenue for me to take a peek into their lives.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:07.039
Some of these kids are now become teenagers.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.200
Uh and every time I see them, they come very affectionately and talk to me.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:13.200
I get a window into what's happening.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:19.759
All because I chose to use my gifts as a good neighbor, as an uncle who loves them.
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.720
You know, in our community, we are referred to as uncles, right?
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:34.480
That role as a responsible citizen, responsible community builder, allows me the love and the affection of many families from which these children come.
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:52.480
So you are, if you start looking at it globally and say, I have so many of these roles to play, and when something goes wrong in one avenue, the other roles come together to multiple identities, are there, and your life is not hanging by just one rope.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:53.359
Correct.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.880
And so that's where de-risking or that's where going all in is a risk.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.720
Because ultimately no one cares.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:04.400
You are they say, right?
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:06.480
No one is indispensable at work.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.079
I'm a resource.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.839
I I'm I'm paid, I'm paid for the time that I put in.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.640
I get a designation, all that is fine.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.440
But should I be hit by a bus tomorrow?
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:27.359
No one's going to take the role of all the other roles that I was playing as a dad, as a spouse, as a community leader, as a church member, as every other role, right?
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:35.519
And above all, a great citizen of America and the love that I have for my country, homeland, back home in India.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.480
Every year I go back to India, at least twice.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:46.000
And when I go, I use my 30 days of time to inspire young people in engineering colleges, MBA colleges.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:54.960
Wherever I get an opportunity, I just go and sort of give the blessing or the gift of my experience and passion.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.359
Sunil, that is really, really very inspiring.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:11.200
And I think that purpose which you have is also a huge piece of resilience.
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:25.119
When the challenges come in life, if somebody has a deep purpose, like your purpose is inspiring thousands of people in the United States, around the world, and India.
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:34.640
Young youth, and recently I heard that you also go to prisons in New York, uh to New Jersey.
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:39.839
So that purpose is a huge yeah.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:48.640
Again, when you see your cause as communities and individuals, you will never miss an opportunity.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:55.440
You know, I'll I'll share a very fresh example, fresh uh cross-on or a bun from the oven.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:10.000
Three, four days ago, my wife and I were at shopping for a new car, and we were at a car showroom, and we were talking to different young people who were uh you know car salesmen.
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:18.880
Then they you talk to the finance people, you talk to the accounting people, you talk to the guy who runs the numbers, then one guy comes and sells you the car servicing plan.
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:31.039
We were dealing with one guy, and suddenly my wife and I started asking him, 'You I hope you had a good Mother's Day.' And he said, Yeah, it was a mixed feeling.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:35.039
I it was bittersweet, and then and then we could have just left it there.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.039
My wife is very perceptive.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.119
She said, Um, what do you mean?
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:40.480
Uh, can you tell us?
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:53.359
As we were talking, he just shared that this year, about four or five months ago, his 16-year-old son was involved in a car crash and he died instantly.
00:29:54.160 --> 00:30:03.759
You know, prior to me becoming this uh sensitive, compassionate leader, I would have just dismissed it.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:04.880
He's a stranger.
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.440
We are there to buy a car, just get on with it.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.039
Do the be cordial, be polite, finish the interaction, and go.
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:21.920
But we spent the next 45 minutes to an hour just walking with that man through the journey, and he was sharing about how he and his wife come from different worldviews.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:25.359
They were sharing, he was unpacking what was going on.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:44.720
You know, the world's biggest cross to carry is a parent or an adult burying a younger one, and no amount of theoretical empathy or anything can truly measure the grief of it's against the run of nature, right?
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.480
Young people should bury the older ones, that's the cycle of life.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:57.039
But for us to reverse, and when you bury a young person who's 16-year-old, my heart just sank into the chair that I was sitting in.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:19.039
We were just so where I'm going with this anecdote is for us, it could have just been a car buying transaction, but we spent time with that man and we took his number, we just exchanged emails, and he said, Is it okay to share more as we keep going forward as they navigate this journey, which will be their lifetime journey of grief?
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:28.559
And then to put it around and saying you should always be focused on a mission, thousands, hundreds of people, but never lose sight of the individual.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.039
Because ultimately we are individuals.
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:36.960
Uh, if somebody comes to me and says, I want to change the world, I want to deal with you, I am not the world.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:38.240
I am Sunal.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.640
I am my name is distinct, my identity is unique.
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:46.000
So, this whole notion of being able to see the individual.
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:59.279
In fact, that's why when Akash and I hit it together, we started getting into each other's stories because you know he's a remarkable guy like you, unique story, and then we our stories start connecting and meshing.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.400
In fact, somebody uh said we are not all human beings, we are stories in collision with each other.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.920
Stories in collision with each other.
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:17.119
Is a story, and the moment I take time to take the story behind this human being, that's when true and authentic bonding happens.
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:17.680
Right?
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.000
I mean, we are talking such deep uh resilience as a theme.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.319
It wouldn't have been possible just straight away.
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.079
We turn the microphones on, right?
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:27.920
A lot of layering happened.
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.559
We went back and forth and we talked.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:41.119
I now know a little bit of your story, and now you know a little bit of my story, and we are building these stories together so that the ripple effect of other stories can be inspired.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:50.240
So, my mission is yes, to transform the world using my communication skills and my story, but I will never lose sight of the individual, Dr.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:50.960
Ash.
00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.640
Thank you so much for uh sharing that, Sunil.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:20.880
Really, uh you have put it very beautifully that stories are so important part and how sometimes you've had you might have had a might have had a story you have been telling yourself, but there is another layer of beauty in how you can reframe those stories.
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:34.240
So, one of the stories when I was reading about you, when you had a real close brush with death, and when you wanted to end it all, I know this is something very personal.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:41.839
Uh, if you would like to speak about it or if you don't want to share about it, that's fine as well.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:55.039
No, I I I want to share because when you share your rock bottom moments, then folks will also appreciate your mountaintop celebrations.
00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:04.799
So my rock bottom was when during those teenage years when I had uh attempted suicide, not just once, but twice.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.559
The second time I almost pulled it off.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.159
I felt uh again.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:22.239
Now you might wonder why this reasonably good-looking man who seemed to have got everything together at this now, at least now, hit that rock bottom, right?
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:26.000
I was the oldest, I am the oldest of four siblings.
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:34.639
My dad, who had a well-paying job, had suddenly lost it, and over a period of four to five years, we had really crumbled as a family.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:43.199
And at that time, I was coming into my teen years, I was from 14, 15 onwards, all the way till 18.
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:46.480
We had no food to eat, no place to stay.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:35:01.199
We were being evicted from rental homes time to time, and I was really boiling a lot of anger and rage against my parents, against my the conditions and circumstances that I was growing up to be.
00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:06.079
And, you know, comparison is the thief that steals away all our joy, right?
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:11.760
I would look around and see my classmates and neighbors doing reasonably okay.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.320
I mean, we are not from a wealthy community or a wealthy area, but they were doing okay.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:22.000
Their parents had decent jobs and government jobs in some instances, and they were doing all right.
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.440
They had a place to stay, they were eating well, wearing good clothes, and I was struggling.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:32.559
And so, for example, one of the nicknames I got bullied with was called Alter.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:40.000
Kyunki, I used to wear clothes that were altered, given away, hand-me-downs from other people.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:48.480
And being evicted from homes is a very dehumanizing experience.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:36:02.320
Um, there were times when we would be taken into relatives' homes, but there were times when we were just waited out outside, in in outside my grandma's house or somewhere where there wasn't enough place for everyone.
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:11.519
So these are physically hurtful times uh of conditions of poverty closing in on us.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:17.440
That was only one piece, but the other piece was my existential angst as a young teenager.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:25.440
I was rebelling at home and I was in a polytechnic, things were not going well, student violence.
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:31.440
Uh I had a love affair at that time, which ended in a big heartbreak.
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:42.559
And so there was this feeling that nobody loves me, no, I don't have a future, my self-esteem hit rock bottom, and I just wanted to end it all.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:51.840
Because the reason most people choose the path of suicide, and subsequently I ended up working in a suicide prevention organization called Sahaya.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:58.800
The the Telugu word Sahaya in and and even in Hindi, I think, to some degree means help.
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:14.239
Uh it's it's uh organization run by Befrienders International, where you counsel the folks who are suicidally depressed, feeling lonely or or uh anxious and they need some kind of an outlet.
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:37.119
So subsequently I drew into that area, but one of the reasons why young people or anyone get pressured or get pulled into depression that ends up to suicidal efforts is often that seems like just your one choice away from solving everything.
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:46.239
You see, recovery on comeback is a million set of choices, million choices incrementally adding to your comeback.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:49.679
But to snap, you just need one choice.
00:37:49.920 --> 00:38:02.800
And whether it is an academic failure or a relational failure or a financial failure or some kind of an existential emptiness that drives you to that point of no return, you're only one choice away.
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:17.039
And it is at that time either providence works, as in my case, you know, God sent some students from the nearby engineering college to drag me out in time from the path of an oncoming train.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:32.400
But had it been not for those students who just took me home, kind of brainwashed me, and continued to just speak words of encouragement for me, my life would have been, I would have been a forgotten footnote in history by now.
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:41.199
My I dread sometimes to think of all the possibilities that subsequently got uncovered when I started fighting back.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:47.199
So, rock bottom, you're only one choice away, but comeback is a series of choices.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:51.599
So for me, the transformation did not happen overnight.
00:38:52.320 --> 00:39:01.840
When somebody says he made a comeback, the first point is getting that alignment back and saying, I want to fight.
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:10.400
You see, when you make that single big choice and saying, I'll fight again, that's when you are on the path to come back.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.760
It may take a few more million steps to get to the mountaintop again.
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:21.280
But once you've got up from rock bottom, the only way is you're going up.
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:32.639
Because you made that pivotal turning point kind of a choice to say, I will fight, I will survive, I will not give up, I will not surrender, I will not quit.
00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:43.440
To me, comeback begins at that pivotal choice, and it's linked to again your what have you been feeding your mind, your spirit all along.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:53.440
The world tells us that we are not having any inherent value, you only possess value to the degree you achieve.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.639
That's why young people get disillusioned when they don't have much achievements going their way.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:12.239
If you remove the label of achievements and you say you possess inherent worth, wealth, inherent value, inherent dignity, then you are detaching the achievements from the individual.
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:13.840
You're talking potential.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:22.239
You see, alignment is always a function of how much you believe you possess as potential to contribute to the world.
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:29.760
Sometimes that potential may take a long time to come out in the form of performance or contribution or value.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:37.119
But just that residual belief that you possess potential, that you have inherent value is the starting point.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.480
That's what I tell young people wherever I go.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.039
I did not see that inherent potential when I was about to commit suicide.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:47.760
I started seeing external validation.
00:40:48.159 --> 00:40:51.679
So Surreel, uh sorry to interrupt you.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:12.079
You mentioned that when you wanted to commit suicide in 1989, would you mind taking me to that moment where you were what this is really important because we are seeing a lot hundreds of thousands of suicides now all over the world on an annual basis?
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.400
I want to see what is the emotional state when a person is in that.
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:21.440
First is real confusion.
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.800
Confusion that does anyone care?
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.480
Does anyone care?
00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:40.480
See, often in suicide prevention circles, they say an attempt to commit suicide is a cry for help, is a cry for conversation, is a is a cry for attention.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.840
Does anyone see me as valuable?
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.199
Does anyone care enough to think of me?
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:47.679
Right?
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:49.920
That that cry for attention.
00:41:50.239 --> 00:42:03.199
I thought if I commit suicide or I I ended my problems, some things around me, me will change, and maybe my siblings and everybody else will have a better life after I go.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:12.239
Because when that heartbreak happened, it just it was one of those, you know, teenage crushes or whatever, you know, puppy love they call, right?
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.719
When that happened, I thought I'll I'm not loved at all.
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:18.719
Nobody will ever love me.
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:20.719
Feelings of isolation.
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:34.880
Which unfortunately, those feelings of isolation are unfortunately in Hollywood and as well as Bollywood, it's glamorized in like movies like allows allow me to say that movies like Dave Das and all that is glamorized.
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:36.800
Glamorized, totally, totally.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.800
Nobody says, you know, it's not movie success.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:44.639
You know, nobody says, let her go, you'll find somebody better, right?
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.920
Nobody, it's not, it's not politically correct, right?
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:54.480
So so the ability for you to hear truths about yourself, and that's where I struggle.
00:42:54.559 --> 00:43:06.480
Even I have a young son who's just graduated college, we need to be able to identify that not every student will make it to Ivy League.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:12.320
Not every young person will make it to corporate echelons, right?
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:24.800
Not everyone has a gift, but if you can find your place under the sun, you know, one of my favorite writers uh in American literature is a writer by name Horatio Alger.
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:29.199
He was around the same contemporary of Mark Twain and so on, right?
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.360
Horatio Alger's stories have a very unique angle to it.
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:46.719
Every character of Horatio Alger rises to some degree of success, but not stupendous spectacular success that you expect to see in movies.
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:57.519
In other words, they come from modest backgrounds, they have their own set of struggles, and then they go achieve to a modicum of success, and they live happily ever after.
00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.119
Much like real life, right?
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:20.320
All of us will ever make it to the, not many people will make it to the covers of Fortune or Forbes or but like a Horatio Alger story, the moment I discover that God made me for a purpose, and like a Horatio Alger story character, I will get to some degree of success, and that's okay.
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:20.960
Right?
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:34.880
I may not become the best and the brightest and the shiniest star on the firmament, but I will shine bright as far as I am allowed to based on how God created me as a star, right?
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:47.199
So to to when you find the true North, when you find that that's maybe the best place and that put tremendous freedom on my shoulders because pressure is lifted off.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.480
I'm no longer thinking I should become the superlative adjectives.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:53.280
No need.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:54.079
Right?
00:44:54.480 --> 00:45:13.280
So the comeback for me began in that suicide moment to say, look, I'm running away, but maybe God has created me to be a fighter to help my family survive, to help my mom survive, to help my siblings survive this crisis.
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:28.320
When I saw that switch from being a victim to a shaping personality, someone who can make a dent in my family's fortunes and the future, my struggle began then, Dr.
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:40.159
It gave me a purpose, it gave me a tremendous so that loneliness, that confusion, that anger, that slowly it was not overnight.
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:47.760
Obviously, I still was mad at my father for not, you know, finding something and getting us back on the track or something.
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:54.559
But because I started so early, and that's where comebacks are powered by the right kind of people, you know.
00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:00.320
Right kind of people you need to have voices that speak courage into your life.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.519
You need to have voices that will tell you you can do it.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.400
Because there are enough people who will say you can't do it.
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:10.719
There are the crazy ones who will come along and say, Of course you can do it.
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:16.480
In fact, a friend of mine said, if you are not guaranteed success, I don't know who else will be guaranteed success.
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:21.679
Because he was saying you've got the right attitude, you're willing to work hard.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:26.079
I mean, you've got all the ingredients that are necessary for a success.
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:27.039
You will make it.
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:31.760
And when somebody says you will make it, you walk around with such confidence.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:36.239
And the word encouragement has courage built into it.
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:41.440
So when you encourage somebody, you are literally pouring courage into that person's life.
00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:55.760
And so when I got the right kind of encouragement, Doc, that confusion, that anxiety, that fear of the future, all that got replaced by faith, faith in myself, faith in God's plan for our lives, faith in the universe.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:04.800
I would trust everybody, I would travel, I would just go to wherever life would take me, with almost fearless faith.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:09.360
You know, they were then the that quitting mindset slowly dissipated.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.800
And I said, you know, I will never do this again.
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:17.360
I will die fighting, but I will never compromise, quit, or surrender.
00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:22.000
That's that was the moment of that uh lonely moments in my journey.
00:47:22.400 --> 00:48:00.880
So the the one of the one of the things when person is at the uttermost despair is isolation and shame and not having any option to, as in your example, completely then transcending it, having a purpose, having a meaning, and also having a lot of encouraging and nurturing connections is the antidote to to being in that rock bottom situation, and now from there you had a great comeback.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:08.719
Now you are helping people who are on suicide watch and you have got working for this charity.
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:20.559
So what is this something you had planned, or it just came to your came that basically destiny brought you there that now you want to help people who are in this kind of similar situation?
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:28.159
It's it's crazy how you know when you're just open and observant, God or universe sends things your way.
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:36.159
The way I heard about this suicide prevention organization was I was driving my motorbike, and right in front of me was an ambassador car.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.559
Back in those days, ambassador cars used to be there.
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:41.360
There was a sticker on the bumper sticker on the back.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:46.880
It said, Depressed, suicider, or lonely, call Sahai and the phone number.
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:48.960
In those days we had landlines, right?
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:54.800
And so I just memorized the number, went to my office because those days we didn't have cell phones.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.000
Went to my office and I called that number and said, Look, I just saw your uh sticker.
00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.880
My name is Sunil, and and I'm uh 19 years old.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.159
I want to be a volunteer in this organization.
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.480
They said, Oh, we are looking for volunteers.
00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:12.239
Give us your details, and then there.
00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:24.159
I must tell you, the three years that I was there in that organization from the time around 19 to 2021, those were the most formative years of my emotional maturity.
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:35.039
Here I was, a 19-year-old, imagine sitting in front of a couple, married couple, maybe five years, seven years, almost like twice my age.
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:41.119
And the couple will ask me, What experience do you have to counsel a married couple?
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.400
And then, of course, we are trained to handle those kinds of questions.
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:51.280
So I'd say, look, my job as a counselor is not to offer you specific marital counseling.
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:57.599
My job is to walk you through the current emotional upheavals you are going through.
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:01.360
So both of you are obviously in a conflict scenario.
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:16.400
I want to hear your story, I want to hear her story, and together the three of us will navigate and dissipate the energy and the conflict and see if you can walk out of this meeting room with some degree of clarity on why there's this conflict.
00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:24.000
So when I offer that kind of a perspective and say, I'm here to listen, back to my suicidal uh situation.
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:35.760
If there were people who were willing to sit me down and say, Tell me what's going on, and then just met me with silence, maybe I would have been able to tell them what's going on.
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:49.280
But once I tried that, and then once people saw that I was really behind this smiling, mischievous, naughty face was an emotionally turbulent situation, they started paying more attention to me.
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:55.679
The next few years till I really matured and came back, they were all being watchful about me.
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:07.039
So it's easy to pay attention after the initial attempt or the warning signals, but it's tough to pick up signals even before somebody goes there.
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:19.920
So if someone is unnaturally quiet, if somebody is not responding to texts, if somebody's not really being themselves, we need our antennae to work over time and pick up those signals.
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:25.360
Because shutting down is the first sign of loneliness.
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:34.639
Shutting down is the first sign of something is happening that we need to pick up more and interpret more of this noise that is coming from them.
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:38.239
Yeah, that is that is so true.
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.199
That is a pattern we see very commonly.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:49.840
Now, Sunil, I wanted to really dig a little deeper into your corporate experience.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:58.159
I know you have 25 plus years of corporate experience, including working in companies like Tata, where you work for 17 years.
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:09.760
We spoke about suicide, people wanting to end life feeling empty from inside because life is not happening their way, they've not achieved enough.
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:12.320
But now I want to go to the other extreme.
00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:15.519
I want to have it all.
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:26.800
When you have it all, when you are working with corporates who have got best of cars, best of houses, best of jobs, and there is an emptiness.
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:30.239
What are called the bowling frog phenomena.
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:44.239
And the bowling frog phenomena is when low-grade stressors, which are outside our level of awareness, slowly and slowly are eroding us from inside.
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.039
Have you seen this kind of phenomena in your corporate life?
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:49.920
Yes.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:50.719
Yes.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:53:00.000
In fact, some of the most um stressed-out individuals are these highly paid, highly achieving executives.
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:20.559
And I always found very interesting that the very people who have solved multi-million dollar problems and multi-hundreds of people teams sometimes don't pause long enough to ask how they are doing, right?
00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:31.039
And so at some point, that manic obsession towards achievements and accomplishments puts you on a path that is almost self-destructive.
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:38.719
You may not destroy yourself, but certainly everybody around you will start feeling the pains.
00:53:39.039 --> 00:53:53.199
If you're a toxic, high achievement-oriented and driven person, watch out for your inner circle of teams at work, inner circle of family, inner circle of friends.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:54:02.159
Because you can't have that kind of a laser-like focus if you're concentrating on all the roles that you play.
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:14.079
Either you're dysfunctional at home or you're dysfunctional to the inner circle of teams, because you're it's always about me and always about myself, right?
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:30.719
So I'm not passing a value judgment, but one of the reasons corporate arenas have become toxic battlefields is because of this manic dog eat dog world kind of a culture, manic competitiveness.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:37.280
Uh, they pay lip service to teamwork, but teams are burning at both ends.
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:50.159
They say they talk about meritocracy, but only a handful are picked and promoted based on whims and fancies without a transparent way of measuring performance.
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:54.639
So the corporate world is not the utopia that we make it out to be.
00:54:54.800 --> 00:55:02.960
I know of far too many broken leaders who are pushed, pushed, driven, driven, almost to the point of being tired.
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:07.840
Uh great accomplishments financially resounding.
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:22.800
Um, you have all the shiniest of gadgets to display, big homes, all that is great, but that feeling of misalignment, that feeling that maybe there's more to success uh than just mere accomplishments, right?
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:33.760
So the people who have discovered their true alignment, their true passion, their true ikigai are the ones who are really flourishing.
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:46.239
For example, I decided very early that sales is not going to be my long-term career, and I moved into creative fields like advertising, PR, and corporate communications.
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.000
Then it was no longer feeling like work.
00:55:50.800 --> 00:56:06.159
Because it it was a passion of my childhood to be in the creative uh environment of coming up with copy, coming up with creative words, using words as a means of creative communication.
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:15.280
Because I aligned my passions, the misalignment I felt when I was in sales completely got eliminated.
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.800
I was feeling that icky guy kind of a thing.
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:30.880
And that boiling frog kind of a thing is you you you talk to some of these executives and ask them to take some time off and switch off and be human, you'll find it.
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:33.679
It's as if you're taking away their pacemaker.
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:35.599
Right?
00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:36.719
Why is it?
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:42.559
Because their identity comes from this relentless treadmill of achievements.
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:48.639
Today, if I get hit by a bus, I should say I've lived well, I live fully.
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:53.920
And that's why I never postpone any opportunity to dare think of a daring adventure.
00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:00.159
We went to Antarctica and we jumped off the ship uh into the polar plunge, right?
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:01.599
I see water.
00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:06.880
It's why would you postpone such an opportunity, right?
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:20.079
Again, not to post it on Facebook or Insta and Tampa just no, it is living in that moment fully that you've trained for, worked hard, just go and get the best of experiences.
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.599
There was not one person I did not talk to on the ship.
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:28.079
I tried to make conversations with everybody, get to know their stories.
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:32.639
I met such fascinating people, and Akash will tell you as well.
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:36.159
The kind of people I met, I will cherish for the rest of my life.
00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:37.280
What stories?
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:44.320
And yeah, I don't know if I you know brought them any joy, but I came back certainly elevated and elated.
00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:44.800
Why?
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:53.599
Because I said to myself that I will do this, it has nothing to do with professional success, nothing to do with my mission.
00:57:53.920 --> 00:58:03.599
But someone somewhere will say, if a guy in his 50s can take good care of his body like that, I should certainly be doing so.
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:08.559
And if a life is transformed, somebody gets a spark of inspiration, I will do it.
00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:17.199
So the world of corporate executives, the world, in fact, now anxiety is the new epidemic that is driving people with the advent of AI.
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:19.280
People are scared to death.
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:20.239
What will happen?
00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:38.639
And that's where if they had avocations outside of work, if they had a healthy set of relationships that are thriving, then you'll not worry about your future because then you'll know your community's got you, your family's got you, you've invested in everybody, you are you are at peace.
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:40.719
That the community will look out for you.
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:47.920
And and if you didn't, and all your life you just were manically swimming in your own lane, then you look around, there's nobody.
00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:59.760
So the corporate world is now a very lonely place, a very anxious place, and then some something's gotta give, and it'll push many people into dysfunctional outcomes soon.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:01.360
I'm worried.
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:09.519
One of the strategies to deal with is uh is to have a purpose, as you you and we have talked about.
00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:21.039
Other is having multiple identities and a lot of interest out of work, and also you mentioned earlier during our conversation is having a deep faith.
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:24.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:44.239
If faith again, um we we come from India, we are a very religious people, so for many of us, faith is an integral part of our life, and we learn from our grandparents, we learn from our parents of how we our lives are merely a channel of blessing for others.
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:48.239
And to that degree, I'm so grateful for my Indian heritage, you know.
00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:51.039
I'm so proud of what we teach our children, right?
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:56.960
Right from our early days, you know, we are surrounded by these traditions, rituals, and so on.
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.400
Growing up as a child, for me, church was a non-negotiable.
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:04.880
You can't say, Oh, I had a tough week, I don't want to, I want to skip church.
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:09.039
No, my parents would just say that's not a negotiable, boss.
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:17.039
So, so for me, even today as an immigrant living in in the United States, two things are non-negotiable during the week.
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:18.000
7 p.m.
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:26.239
Eastern, we get a program called Jeopardy, which is a quiz kind of a program where you're tested for your knowledge.
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:29.360
And Sunday, 10 o'clock, we are at church.
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:36.239
So our schedule is almost again, mental, Jeopardy tests your knowledge and spiritual.
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:40.079
On Sunday, you go back to recharge and refresh yourself, right?
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:49.199
Um, of course, physical fitness, everybody um yeah, my when I ran marathons, I ensured my older boy ran a couple of half marathons.
01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:53.679
My wife ran a marathon after delivering our second baby half marathon.
01:00:53.920 --> 01:01:05.199
So physical fitness depends on different seasons of life, but the ability to have that deep-rooted anchors, your faith is a major part of it.
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:15.039
Because someday, see, one of the reasons that uh I'm so conscious of giving back to the world is not to be this goody-goody guy that gets appreciation and all that.
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:15.599
No.
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:23.039
My way of measuring my life is I don't just want to be successful, but I want to be faithful.
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:27.280
Faithful ka matlab kya, what is what does the word faithful mean?
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:31.280
You are doing it whether people are watching or not.
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:40.880
For example, going back to that car salesman example that I said, I could have just treated that as another just a business professional transaction.
01:01:41.920 --> 01:02:00.800
But I took time to just speak words of courage into his life, my wife and I, because when we stand in the presence of God when we die, God will ask us look, I sent you one guy in your path who was grieving after his lost son, and you just walked casually by.
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:11.519
I need to account for such opportunities where maybe God is wanting to spend, send encouragement his way using me and my wife.
01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:15.760
It was not a chance encounter, no, it's God's plan that we are supposed to have met.
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:20.320
So I I try to, I put aside my own petty, pity parties.
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:24.880
Sometimes I'm not in the best of moods, sometimes I'm irritated, sometimes I'm annoyed.
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:29.199
But I will never let go of an opportunity to see Rikisika.
01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:41.360
And one of the reasons uh I I pick up on these things is as I'm spending more time, you know, as people we are always drawn to fun activities, right?
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:46.159
But fun activities, after a while, they fatigue you, they tire you.
01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:52.960
You see somebody sitting quietly in a corner, they have something going on in their life.
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:56.079
You go to them and say, Hey, is there anything bothering you?
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.440
Do you want to talk about it?
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:01.760
That costs for a sensitive spirit.
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:06.480
You only feel it in your heart first and then you you discover it later.
01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:17.440
So, to me, the ability for to be faithful to all the people I meet, to all the opportunities I get to lift up people is a function of my faith.
01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:27.360
Because someday I don't want to stand in the presence of God and say, I'm sorry I messed up because I was too busy dancing, I was too busy missing out on other things.
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:32.559
Oh so so that that's where my orientation to serve others comes, Dr.
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:33.119
Ash.
01:03:33.760 --> 01:03:41.840
That is so important to give to others, and that comes ultimately comes back to us.
01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:42.480
Yeah.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:47.280
Because as we say, in the Western Hemisphere, what can I give to anyone, right?
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:51.599
I mean, other than somebody is in financial need, some charity you'll do.
01:03:51.840 --> 01:04:00.480
But a kind word, an encouraging word, it might just change their day, change their mood, change their trajectory, who knows?
01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:08.639
So I'm always saying, um, even in New Jersey, New Jersey is one of the few states where there are others to pump our gas.
01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:15.840
In many of the other 48 states, um, other than Portland, there people have to pump their own gas.
01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:21.119
So anytime somebody comes and just in that chance encounter, I try to ask their name.
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:26.719
If they are a student, I tell them to be faithful in their education, stay strong.
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.599
You never know what battles they are fighting.
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:38.400
And just for that short encouragement, it's not gonna cost me much except just being not absorbed in my own problems.
01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:40.639
As an EAK, I don't have problems, right?
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:44.880
Every one of us we are fighting some mountain or the other.
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:49.519
But in the process, let's egg each other, let's cheer each other, let's lift each other.
01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:56.159
That's like when you are doing like when you're doing the marathon, we are we are all we are in this together.
01:04:56.559 --> 01:05:04.719
So that that feeling of that camaraderie and helping and inspiring and lifting each other is really very important.
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:05.599
Yeah.
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:08.719
See, the word humility comes to my mind now.
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:11.679
You might say, what has humility got to do with this?
01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.960
The root word for humility is hummus.
01:05:15.760 --> 01:05:18.480
Hamas means from the earth.
01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:25.519
You and I are dug from the earth, we are made from mud, dust to dust, they say, right?
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.000
We we go back into the earth.
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:42.159
If you have that orientation key, boss, no matter how wealthy you are, no matter how super successful you are, I'm also banawa, we are all going to be in the same common destiny.
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:47.119
But in the meantime, let's make life easy for each other.
01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:57.280
In fact, there's a very nice quote by I think Mary Oliver, I'm not certain, who says, Ah, what is life meant to be except to make life easier for the other?
01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:58.079
It's so true.
01:05:58.320 --> 01:05:59.280
But what do we end up doing?
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.559
We may Life is hard for each other, right?
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:08.800
So, so to have that kind of a perspective and say, you know what, just be humble about it.
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:20.960
In fact, I I really this is a struggle for me because I by nature would like to push myself and stretch myself, but to back down and be humble is not natural.
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:27.679
But many life experiences have made me so humble that I don't take anything for granted.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.840
I don't take tomorrow for granted.
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:31.599
Because who's seen tomorrow?
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:39.199
So, with that orientation, I go and walk around saying any day six feet above the ground is a great day.
01:06:40.639 --> 01:06:42.960
And I was very, very philosophical.
01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:53.920
Every day you wake up, every day you wake up, we have to feel that gratitude that we have got another day of life.
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:54.400
Yeah.
01:06:54.639 --> 01:07:08.639
So uh Sunil, uh, your uh story, really uh an inspiring and a humbling story, is uh story today of millions of people around the world.
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:22.079
You know, one of the Gallups studies showed that the burnout at work is up to 70 to 80 percent in all countries, all continents around the world.
01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:26.400
So it's not just one person going through it, the negative and toxic emotions.
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:40.320
And your st your journey, I would say the ultimate story of the boiling frog journey when people are so depleted that they don't see uh uh a way through.
01:07:40.639 --> 01:07:47.199
So do you have a framework where people who are in their rock bottom, which you could share?
01:07:47.280 --> 01:08:06.079
I know you are called as a come back, come back guru, and I I would love for you to share with the listeners that if they are at their that simply the rock bottom, what is what is the journey they should do and what is the starting point?
01:08:06.960 --> 01:08:17.199
Great question, great question, and and and thankful because this is one topic that I've really studied and reflected uh in the light of my own experiences.
01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:27.920
Uh by no means I'm a guru the way the world sees it, but you know, if you failed so many times, you have some experience in in uh in coming coming back.
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:37.840
So for me, there is a there's a threefold um framework, so to speak, that I personally applied and it really worked well for me.
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:40.640
The first one is movement.
01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:49.119
You know, in your physical world, in your world of physiology and in the world of medicine, you talk about movement being medicine.
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:50.720
Movement is medicine.
01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:53.119
And I think it's absolutely accurate.
01:08:53.920 --> 01:09:16.079
Borrowing from the medical world, I try to say to people look, if you're stuck in this blaise kind of a feeling where you are not able to move out from the morass of helplessness, depletion, rock bottom kind of a feeling, the first thing you need to try and do is physical movement.
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:19.840
Walk, change of location, change of scenery.
01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:21.600
Just get out of that place.
01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:26.399
If need be, get out of the college for some time, get out of that town for some time.
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:30.000
Movement allows you a shift in perspective.
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:42.000
And for me, that happened when I took a six-month sabbatical and went to Chennai, another city from where I lived, and and re-evaluated my life.
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:51.520
And in those six months, change of location, change of perspective, brand new set of people, different voices speaking into my life, my life turned.
01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:57.279
So first element is movement shift in location.
01:09:58.079 --> 01:09:59.840
That's why sabbaticals are important.
01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:06.399
That's why you need to refill the lamp that is burning within you so that you can burn brighter.
01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:11.840
You can't light up others if you're running on fumes and empty.
01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:23.520
And so for me, that refilling comes partly from my family, partly from my faith, partly from the community, and revisiting my own life's mission, right?
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:25.199
So that's the first principle.
01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:30.479
Your physical change of location, physical movement is your medicine.
01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:37.039
The second one is that gives you momentum to make those first choices.
01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:44.960
Again, assuming that you are not able to move, what are some small wins that you can aim for to get momentum?
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:45.680
Right?
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:48.640
The first is movement, second is momentum.
01:10:48.880 --> 01:10:57.119
What are some things that I can do to just get that little bit of spark, little bit of momentum in my fight to come back, right?
01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:04.239
Um when you run a marathon, when you train for something big, you know, I must share a story.
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:07.279
Amsterdam Marathon 2016.
01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:16.239
At mile six, I made a rookie mistake of trying to keep up with a colleague who's 15 years younger than me.
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:22.319
And as a runner, you will know that is disaster.
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:25.359
Mile six, I had a hamstring injury.
01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:26.800
Mile six.
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:34.079
So one option was pull out, report that your DNF injury limping.
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:43.600
But I told myself, I didn't travel all the way from New York, New Jersey to Amsterdam to quit at mile six.
01:11:44.239 --> 01:11:45.359
I cannot.
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:50.479
So movement shift in location happened when I went to the medical tent.
01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:56.479
They said, quit, we can call your cab, you can go back to the stadium, pick your stuff and go.
01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:59.520
I said, No, I didn't come this far to quit.
01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:03.039
I said, let me see how long I can go to walk.
01:12:03.199 --> 01:12:12.239
I removed my pullover, the wind sheeter, tied it tight around my thigh, and started limping.
01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:16.560
Movement, momentum, movement, momentum, movement, momentum.
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:20.399
Do you know it took an extra hour for me to finish?
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:26.239
People, even spectators who were applauding, were saying, Why don't you quit?
01:12:26.479 --> 01:12:29.039
If you're if you're in so much in pain, why don't you quit?
01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:30.880
I said, No, I'm not quitting.
01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:35.920
I finished the Amsterdam Marathon, 20 miles of pain.
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:42.000
All because I took small steps in the direction for momentum.
01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:49.359
And then the final one is first is movement, second one is momentum, the third one is memories.
01:12:50.000 --> 01:13:01.119
Recall past victories, recall, relook at your past trophies, celebrate your past wins, and those memories fuel your momentum and movement.
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:05.199
So these three are essential for any comeback.
01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:10.640
There are there could be more, but these three are basic starting for any comeback.
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:23.359
You know, if you are feeling completely dried up and empty, the best place to stay is remember first of all that you're six feet above the ground, great place to be in.
01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:25.119
That's the bonus.
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:28.720
From there, look back at how far you've come.
01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:36.960
If you're very early in your life and you're you're high schooler, you're in college, look at all the battles you fought in the past.
01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:43.119
And maybe it's one of your first major battles, but you have overcome certain things to get here.
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:46.079
So look at all the memories, collect all those memories.
01:13:46.239 --> 01:13:50.960
If you have a great family, think of that memory, think of all the family support.
01:13:51.199 --> 01:14:03.279
So if you start looking at your setback with a grateful attitude and say, look, there are some people, my situation is bad enough.
01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:06.640
It's the worst diagnosis, worst prognosis.
01:14:07.119 --> 01:14:08.560
I know it is bad.
01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:16.479
You know, um, on Wednesday, two days ago, today we are in Friday, two days ago, my wife and I met a young man, 22-year-old.
01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:19.199
His father is diagnosed with fourth-stage cancer.
01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:21.279
He's got two more months to live.
01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:23.039
Our heart sank.
01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:36.000
But we have nothing but positive affirmations, faith affirmations to give that young young child to say, I mean, 22 is even younger than my son.
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:38.560
So our my heart just went out to that child.
01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:50.960
We just said, hang in there, relish every moment, speak words of strength to your father, make sure you absorb as much of quality time with him, whatever else, right?
01:14:51.359 --> 01:15:04.560
And that boy, that young man, will be so much stronger if he's able to handle this loss, this impending uh time bomb that they are sitting on.
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:06.239
But think of it.
01:15:06.479 --> 01:15:14.960
The flip side could be the dad is coming home, a truck rams into it, overnight their life's changed.
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:23.199
As opposed to a two-month preparation period where you're slowly going through the stages of grief, grappling with it, and saying, Why?
01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:24.800
Why is such a young man?
01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:26.800
Is just about 60.
01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:28.880
It's unfair.
01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:29.920
Unfair it is.
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.319
That's why death is called the great equalizer, disease is called the great equalizer, it respects no one.
01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:41.359
Accidents happen all the time, that's why they are called accidents, they turn our life upside down.
01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:48.880
So when you hit those moments, these three things are essential: movement, momentum, and memories.
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:53.119
They those three give you enough spark.
01:15:53.279 --> 01:15:57.920
In fact, I have a full-length uh abbreviation for the word spark.
01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:02.720
The the the the S in it stands for stimulation.
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:04.880
What keeps you stimulated?
01:16:05.039 --> 01:16:06.640
Go back to that source.
01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:13.840
For me, even if I'm in the worst situation, if I know somebody else is in need, I get stimulated.
01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:17.199
I'd love to just offer whatever I could.
01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:20.640
If nothing else, just give them the gift of my presence.
01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:25.600
You know, sometimes we forget how our presence itself can be a gift, right?
01:16:25.760 --> 01:16:27.760
Some people think I don't have anything to gift.
01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:34.159
I'm an introvert, I can't speak, I can't speak eloquently, I don't have the right words, I feel awkward in these situations.
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:40.000
Yes, these situations are awkward, but just you being there is the greatest gift.
01:16:40.159 --> 01:16:46.880
That you cared enough to be there to see that person in that point of need is a gift to that person.
01:16:47.119 --> 01:16:52.880
That's why I tell young people give the gift of your attention when I'm teaching you.
01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:56.720
Because when you pay attention to me, you're actually giving me a gift.
01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:00.640
So back to the topic of what are the what is the framework?
01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:04.399
It's can we just can we just complete the can we just complete the spark?
01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:06.239
Yeah, can we just complete the spark?
01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:08.640
It'll take uh take forever.
01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:12.399
We will have the spark for the next episode.
01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:23.119
Um the the each of that letter is stimulation p for uh performance of how do you go back into performance mode?
01:17:23.439 --> 01:17:26.720
A is for what has been your aspiration all along.
01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:29.680
So you go along uh into multiple things.
01:17:29.760 --> 01:17:44.880
But what I piece together for my podcasts, and uh I'm I'm doing is uh a full-on coaching program on resilience, is how do you come back when the odds seem to be stacked against you, right?
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.960
You go back to this ability to to your core calling.
01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:54.960
What what is it that you were naturally gravitating to as a child, right?
01:17:55.199 --> 01:18:11.439
You know, in India, in South Asian cultures, in some Asian cultures, the child's interest might be something, but the parents might just push us in a different direction because of employability, high performance opportunities, high revenue opportunities, right?
01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:19.359
But when you were a child, nobody said, no, no, you only play Lego because Lego will give you STEM engineering mindset.
01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:21.680
You play Lego because they're fascinating, right?
01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:26.560
So, what gives you those aspirations as a child?
01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:29.920
What were the roots behind those aspirations?
01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:31.199
Why did we give up?
01:18:31.279 --> 01:18:36.880
You know, we all grew up wanting to be train drivers and bus conductors and firefighters and stuff.
01:18:37.119 --> 01:18:39.199
Where did those dreams go, right?
01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:45.760
So now when you're in this mid-peak career, when I encourage people to go back, many of them actually do.
01:18:46.000 --> 01:18:49.039
Many of them start volunteering as EMS volunteers.
01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:55.600
In in the United States, we have the ability for us to go and serve as volunteers as EMS volunteers.
01:18:55.840 --> 01:19:01.279
So you go with the medical um you know, first responders team as a volunteer and support them.
01:19:01.439 --> 01:19:08.720
Uh, I go into the prison uh because, again, you know, I want to see them for who they are, for their inherent wealth.
01:19:08.960 --> 01:19:20.159
Now, uh many of my corporate colleagues found it very difficult, almost puzzling to understand why I spent time on a good Friday evening or on a good Wednesday evening inside a prison.
01:19:20.399 --> 01:19:28.640
When I go through a prison, you get all these, you know, massive mission impossible kind of a movie set kind of a feeling, right?
01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:39.760
In fact, one of the prisons that I go to in Rave, New Jersey, is actually where the Ocean 11 scenario was filmed, real-life uh uh factoid for you.
01:19:40.079 --> 01:19:43.600
So why do I go through these difficult and dark places?
01:19:43.840 --> 01:19:59.199
I could easily be just avoiding those areas, but no, as someone who's championing the cause of the underdog, asking people to look within and find their potential, these people deserve second chances as much as others do.
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:06.479
One friend of mine actually got into a bitter argument saying, I don't need, I think you guys are overdoing it.
01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:13.680
Those people were caught doing something wrong, they're paying the price, you don't have to show any tenderness or compassion to them.
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:18.720
You're a good person, but I, in my view, they are serving their time, they got what they deserved.
01:20:18.880 --> 01:20:20.880
Actually, they're right too, right?
01:20:20.960 --> 01:20:25.039
I mean, if you're serving time, it's not unfairly you are convicted, right?
01:20:25.199 --> 01:20:26.640
You did something wrong.
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:34.640
But person has a chance to read the future when he gets out.
01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:38.079
You're talking about how life will be when he comes out.
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:52.159
Yes, imagine a 16-year-old, 17-year-old caught on drug trafficking or drug peddling or something, doing a crime of passion in a heat fit of rage, 30 years gone, at 47, 48, they're coming back into the world.
01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:55.920
They have no clue what has changed in the last 30 years.
01:20:56.239 --> 01:21:04.960
Do you know when your setting of prison reminds me of the movie Shawshank Redemption?
01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:09.279
A remarkable movie uh for resilience.
01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:18.479
Now, Sunil, we are coming to the top of the hour, and uh we will uh it's been a really inspiring conversation with you.
01:21:18.640 --> 01:21:25.439
I I could really go on and on, and we will complete the we will complete the spark in the next episode.
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:32.399
But what I would just like to ask one final question before we go.
01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:47.600
You have had a remarkable exceptional journey of resilience, I would say beyond resilience, what in the world of psychology we call as post-traumatic growth.
01:21:48.000 --> 01:22:09.039
Now, if Sunil today was so accomplished, who's helped thousands and tens of thousands of people around the world, like the most beautiful and inspiring experiences you were sharing, how you help any person you meet.
01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:23.840
Now, if the sunil today was to go back and meet the sunil of 1989, what message are you going to give to that sunil?
01:22:23.920 --> 01:22:25.199
What would you tell him?
01:22:26.319 --> 01:22:27.119
Great question.
01:22:27.279 --> 01:22:28.159
Thank you for that question.
01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:29.600
I've never been asked this question.
01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:38.720
I I I would probably say, don't measure your life on an annual basis, measure your life in decades.
01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:43.840
Don't measure your life on an annual basis, measure your life in decades.
01:22:44.079 --> 01:22:58.319
Meaning at that time I was still in my teens, and so I was too harsh on myself, too harsh on my parents, too harsh on um on circumstances around me.
01:22:58.479 --> 01:23:05.680
But if I'd waited 10 more years, by the time I came to 28, 29, my life had turned around.
01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:09.039
And a decade is a good way of looking at life.
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:25.760
In fact, uh, I'm uh in my mid-60s, uh mid-50s, and when I do an analysis of my past and going back to the 3M framework of movement medicine and memories, these memories allow you to look back and say, how far you've come.
01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:26.560
How far you've come.
01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:38.239
And if only I could just give myself the gift of patience and said, don't judge yourself so harshly because nothing good came your way at up until that time.
01:23:38.399 --> 01:23:39.920
Give yourself a few more years.
01:23:40.079 --> 01:23:45.920
In fact, in fact, if I had got that advice, then somebody said, just hang in there for three more years.
01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:49.199
My life would have turned because actually in three years it turned.
01:23:49.439 --> 01:23:57.119
I I became a salesman for a sales engineer for an engineering firm that was selling mechanical equipment.
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:01.520
And on company's dime, I would travel all over India.
01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:11.840
And I was 20, 21 years old carrying this engineering equipment and traveling all over this beautiful country called India.
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:16.479
And I'm telling you, most Indians wouldn't have traveled as much as I've traveled in India.
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:23.359
Travel is something which really deepens, strippens you, fills you.
01:24:24.399 --> 01:24:26.960
So imagine one final question.
01:24:27.199 --> 01:24:28.800
One final question.
01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:38.399
Uh when you talked about um your journey, have you the three people who saved your life, were you in touch with them?
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:40.479
And did you go back and thank them?
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:49.119
For uh couple of years, I went back to that engineering college and and and I was able to one I particularly remember one guy.
01:24:49.279 --> 01:24:53.039
I was always grateful to him, but they were all people from the hostel.
01:24:53.119 --> 01:25:01.840
So as soon as the engineering program got over, they went back to their native places and uh you know they are unknown to me now.
01:25:02.079 --> 01:25:06.399
But uh one particular guy, his name is Vinod Singh, I remember his name.
01:25:06.640 --> 01:25:16.800
He he was the guy who really let me go back to the engineering college hostel, uh, play table tennis with them and and just be around.
01:25:16.880 --> 01:25:22.319
Uh you know, it's that you know how hostels are, they don't let strangers come in.
01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:28.720
But here was this guy who would let me come in as his friend and just be around as I was still a young kid.
01:25:28.800 --> 01:25:34.960
I mean, they were a few years older than me, but they would let me come, go, and yes, I was grateful to them.
01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:43.760
And uh subsequently I shared with them that I'm struggling in polytechnic, and then they said, stay the course, you'll do well, and that kind of thing.
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:44.960
Yes, I was grateful to them.
01:25:45.279 --> 01:26:06.319
Sunil, um, it is uh like sometimes even the strangers, the remotest of the strangers, can make such a profound difference in our lives, and sometimes it's just a kind word, a hug, and it can transform the trajectory of the life.
01:26:06.560 --> 01:26:12.239
Well, Sunil, it's been a really honor and a privilege to have you on this show.
01:26:12.479 --> 01:26:20.800
And if the listeners want to find out more about your book and the work, what would be the best portal if you don't mind sharing?
01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:21.680
Sure.
01:26:21.920 --> 01:26:24.560
I have two ways of being um followed.
01:26:24.640 --> 01:26:29.359
Uh, www.sumilrobert.com is my website home.
01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:36.800
But more importantly, in the last six months, we've been building a YouTube channel called Comeback Stories with Sunil Robert.
01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:39.279
As you can see, I love comeback stories.
01:26:39.439 --> 01:26:41.600
I'm interviewing different folks like uh Dr.
01:26:41.760 --> 01:26:49.520
Ashmar, um, people who have made comeback a or resilience as a theme of their lives.
01:26:49.760 --> 01:27:01.600
I interviewed some achievers, I interviewed uh some um uh folks who are really uh accomplished in life, and what lessons do they have to offer to the world around them?
01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:05.600
So it's great uh that um uh you can follow.
01:27:05.760 --> 01:27:08.960
It'll be great if you can spread the word to young people.
01:27:09.119 --> 01:27:10.159
I love young people.
01:27:10.239 --> 01:27:18.000
I feel if we give them the benefit of our experience, they may or they may not change it, but at least this it's there as a resource for them.
01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:21.520
So I'd love for I will I will share the link here.
01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:32.800
And um again, Sunil, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, and it's been a real joy to have your transforming stress, and hopefully our paths are going to cross again soon in the future.
01:27:33.119 --> 01:27:33.520
Certainly.
01:27:33.680 --> 01:27:45.279
I want to come back and talk about my Spark framework and uh certainly and thank you for all that you do, and I want to thank uh Ashisha uh uh Akash as well for connecting us.
01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:46.479
Absolutely, guys.
01:27:46.720 --> 01:27:47.199
Absolutely.
01:27:47.600 --> 01:27:48.960
Much much blessings on you.
01:27:49.039 --> 01:27:50.159
Thank you for all your work, thanks.
01:27:50.560 --> 01:27:51.279
Thank you, Sunil.
01:27:53.840 --> 01:27:57.439
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01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:05.279
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01:28:05.600 --> 01:28:11.359
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01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:21.359
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01:28:21.600 --> 01:28:28.159
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01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:33.520
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01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:38.880
So stay resilient and keep thriving, and we will see you next time.
