[00:00:00] **Speaker:** All right. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast. This is Mike Caldwell, your host, and joining me today from Elon, Florida- Well, thank you for having me, Mike ... Chris Brody. Chris, thanks for being on the show.
[00:00:20] Yeah, we had to bump this I think once or twice, so it's been kind of a long time in the making it seems like.
[00:00:26] **Speaker 2:** But
[00:00:26] **Speaker:** I
[00:00:26] **Speaker 2:** think it lines
[00:00:27] **Speaker:** up
[00:00:27] **Speaker 2:** well with the book launch, right? Yeah, thank you very much. Uh, The Leader Within: Executive Coaching of Educational Leaders will be coming out in April, but you can start the pre-orders now
[00:00:40] **Speaker:** Okay. Right on. We'll get into, uh, the details of that book and, and, uh, lessons learned that you've kind of built into that. But I'd, I like to start these podcasts even before a full introduction with, uh, some, some quick hitters. The lightning round. Usually the lightning round comes at the end. I like to start with the lightning round at the beginning.
[00:01:00] So-
[00:01:01] **Speaker 2:** Yes, sir ...
[00:01:01] **Speaker:** see how, see how, how you do on your feet here. All right. You ready? All right. What's one book you've recommended more than any other to school leaders? Um- It can't be The Leader Within.
[00:01:13] **Speaker 2:** A book I've recommended to school leaders
[00:01:21] I, I, I, I, I'm a big fan of, um, of, um,
[00:01:25] **Speaker:** oh,
[00:01:25] **Speaker 2:** I can't think of the author now, but the, uh, the new science, Leadership and the New Science by, um, Wheatley, I believe. It's, it's kind of a science, it's a science take. It's, it talks about chaos theory- I love this ... and it was, uh, it was back in the, I think it was in the '90s when chaos theory and complexity was really taking form.
[00:01:45] But it introduced me to just the complexity and the beauty of, of leadership
[00:01:56] **Speaker:** Love it. Cool. I love, I love that question. Um, what's one thing about being a superintendent that
[00:02:01] **Speaker 2:** nobody really understands until
[00:02:03] **Speaker:** they've done it? The care and feeding of the seven-headed monster.
[00:02:04] **Speaker 2:** Um, you know, it's like a, it's like a hydra. You gotta keep your eyes on all those heads 'cause if you give one too much attention, the other ones will attack and, and it's just, it's the care and feeding of that beast
[00:02:21] **Speaker:** Oh, I like that. I haven't heard that-
[00:02:23] **Speaker 2:** Yeah. And, and to be fair, if any of my board members are listening- ... most of that, uh, Alex ... or previous
[00:02:27] **Speaker:** board members- But I can
[00:02:27] **Speaker 2:** imagine ... since I am now retired, um, I've loved you all
[00:02:36] **Speaker:** Yeah, I'm sure they will be listening too, so I'm glad you threw that caveat in there. If you could have dinner with any leader living or dead, who would that be and why? Jesus Christ,
[00:02:44] **Speaker 2:** I have a lot
[00:02:44] **Speaker:** of questions
[00:02:51] I, that's, that's mine that, that I usually go to as well. So good, good, great minds think alike. Very, very cool. Um, let's see. What's one leadership phrase or cliche- Oh, I never
[00:03:04] **Speaker 2:** want to hear again? ...
[00:03:05] **Speaker:** never want to hear again
[00:03:10] **Speaker 2:** Um
[00:03:14] **Speaker:** Phrase or cliché
[00:03:16] **Speaker 2:** I don't know. I-- That-- There's so many good ones. I, I like them all. Um
[00:03:24] **Speaker:** Okay, we'll flip it. What is your favorite leadership phrase
[00:03:27] **Speaker 2:** or cliché? I would have to say culture eats leadership for breakfast
[00:03:35] Eat strategy for l- uh, breakfast
[00:03:36] **Speaker:** Culture eats
[00:03:37] **Speaker 2:** strategy for breakfast. Peter, Peter Drucker. I've also heard culture kicks, uh, leadership's ass nine times out of 10.
[00:03:43] **Speaker:** Um, like
[00:03:49] I like it. Cool, cool. Well, well, we'll, we'll jump, jump out of the lightning round into the actual podcast here. So Chris, you spent- Yes ... correct me if I'm wrong, 19 years as a superintendent. Yeah,
[00:03:59] **Speaker 2:** my entire educational career has been in Illinois. All of that in Illinois,
[00:04:02] **Speaker:** if I'm not mistaken
[00:04:07] **Speaker 2:** Prior to being a superintendent? And, uh, what did
[00:04:09] **Speaker:** you do prior to
[00:04:09] **Speaker 2:** that? So, um, I was an assistant superintendent for finance. I did the budgets and the tax levies and did the HR part, the onboarding, the insurance, all of that good stuff, uh, for two years in Central Illinois. My superintendency's been in Southern Illinois and outside of, of, uh, St.
[00:04:25] Louis, which I know is not in Illinois, but it's on the Illinois side of St. Louis. Um, and then my Central Illinois was my assistant superintendency, and then I was a principal and a teacher up in the, uh, Lake County, which is the collar county of Chicago. So I, I've, I've led in all of what we call the three regions of Illinois: uh, Chicagoland, Central, and Downstate.
[00:04:53] **Speaker:** Okay. So think about your first year as a superintendent versus your last year. What was fundamentally different? What, what rings true? Like, what was fundamentally different fr- in, in terms of the state of being a superintendent from your first year to your last year? Not about, like, your own personal leadership, but really like- Oh,
[00:05:19] **Speaker 2:** in the profession?
[00:05:20] **Speaker:** What, what's, what's changed in 20 years? In the profession. It, it- Like, what re- really stands out? Um, I'd have to say technology.
[00:05:25] **Speaker 2:** Yeah. I, uh, I remember when I first started in administration, cell phones were just coming about, you know? I had a, a PalmPilot, and then I had a BlackBerry where I could do my stuff on my phone.
[00:05:42] Um, for some of your younger listeners, they're like, "What?" But, uh, I remember older superintendents, my... the superintendent that I worked for at the time, Dr. Maloney, he, uh, he hated cell phones. He thought it was the, the worst part of, um, of, of education that was gonna destroy everything. I can't imagine being a superintendent without my cell phone, being able to take my office with me.
[00:06:06] That said, as I'm leaving and I'm the old superintendent, um, the younger generation seems to enjoy social media a little bit more than I do. I'm not comfortable posting things out there and everything. And so, um, it just, for me, it's been the evolution of how technology's used, how you manage your, um, your district's brand, uh, and all of that stuff.
[00:06:35] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, related to technology, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, I've, I, I've always been kind of I don't know, like stay ahead of the curve or really technology forward in every kind of role I've had in, in, in education. And, um, I remember, you know, well, whatever, 20 years ago or whatever the, the big push, you know, is obviously more technology and utilizing technology and online and blended and, and all this stuff.
[00:07:11] But now there's so many, so much, such a big push to pull back from technology in the classroom. So, I mean, that's, seeing that all over the news right now. And so that's a huge shakeup to, to s- in, you know, invest all this time and energy and, and dollars towards building classrooms, personalized, you know, learning environments around the use of technology and the, and the s- the advances you get with that.
[00:07:40] But now limiting screen time, which I get, like I get, you know, I totally get both, both sides of it. There's with like everything, there's a happy- I- ... finding that happy medium or balance. I,
[00:07:51] **Speaker 2:** I will have to say that I think that that is why I liked- Um, what do you think about that? ... uh, leadership in the new science and talks about complexity because we...
[00:08:02] People talk about the pendulum, and we go from the left to the right, and we're always saying how important that middle ground is. And I think with technology, we're missing the boat. Illinois, um, is going and pushing toward transitioning to a state law where no cell phones can be used in the school. And I think that's sad.
[00:08:19] Um, I think that what needs to happen is, is for people to have a smartphone, you should have a license. I've got kids that are committing felonies with their videos and forwarding videos that they shouldn't be forwarding, um, because they've got a tool in their hand that no one understands how powerful it is.
[00:08:37] I think that if you want your kid to have a phone, we should bring back the old flip phones where you can only play Snake, so your kid can text and they can call. But to actually have the internet and video and, um, cameras and everything else in their pocket and bring that into school, that's, that's ridiculous.
[00:08:56] Now, I think those flip phones need to be like the old BlackBerries where I can do, uh, assignments and I can do, um, tasks because I manage my life with my cell phone. It's integrated with my laptop. It's integrated with my iPad. It... We need to teach the kids how to use that tool 'cause it's a great tool.
[00:09:16] But no, they're gonna just ban it completely instead of tweaking it and saying, "Well, let c- can we turn off the stuff that's not working so well or make a law where they can't have that anymore?" I'm sure the cell phone companies would love to start selling new phones that are flip phones for the younger generations and then selling new phones when they, you know, with the smartphones when they get to a certain age and pass a license.
[00:09:44] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's a complicated beast. I mean, where I go instantly is like, okay, you can make all the school policies you want, but it's still, you know, the family's decision on what technology they buy and when they buy it for their child and all those kind of things. So, so the challenges, you know, that schools have obviously is how do you manage that or eliminate that or limit that in the school environment, the classroom environment, and that's a battle in itself.
[00:10:16] But in terms of what device, phone device they have, ooh, that's a whole separate Yeah. I don't, I don't even wanna go, go, go in that direction. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's all very complicated, you know, and you haven't even mentioned AI and kind of where all that fits in, but that's not the focus of this podcast.
[00:10:35] We don't have to go there. I re- I really wanna talk about developing leaders because of your book and what, what you've done. Um, and it's something I'm, like, very in- you know, very interested in, um, in the work I'm doing with LEAP Leaders and what we're trying to build. So let's talk about how... You know, I'm really curious about kinda your- Mm-hmm
[00:10:55] experience and approach on developing your bench, if you will, um, in your, in your schools, um, that you work with. So let's, let's maybe start with, um, who, who did you see as like the key support system that you put in place for developing and supporting your school-level leaders? They spend so much of their time and energy developing their teachers, developing their, you know, the, the rest of their staff, and being that servant leader for others, but oftentimes it's the leaders that kind of get left out without getting that kind of same, um, development for, for themselves.
[00:11:40] And not just professional development, but the nourishing and type of support to, uh, that kind of keep them balanced and, and, and grounded as leaders.
[00:11:49] **Speaker 2:** Um, I approached it- How did you approach that as a superintendent? ... very, very badly, and I say that with all the love and honesty in my heart. I, uh... It's kinda like when you, you know, the...
[00:12:00] Over the 19 years I was a superintendent, I thought I knew everything at the beginning, and at the end I started to realize I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. And, um, you know, with age comes wisdom, and part of wisdom is knowing what you don't know. When I was close to retirement, I went back to school and got my PhD in Industrial Organizational Psychology because I felt like the HR and that portion of the superintendency training was a little bit lacking, and I thought, "In retirement, maybe I'll be a professor."
[00:12:29] I did my dissertation actually interviewing executive coaches for, um, school leaders, superintendents specifically, and looked at their strategies. And what I found was I was not developing leaders very well as a superintendent. So, um, it's from that that I actually, from the dissertation that I wrote, The, uh, Leader Within, and it talks about my own leadership development that I did for myself- Mm
[00:12:56] and the people in my life that helped me. Because we need those outside eyes to really- hone in on that. And I think that now I could, I could have worked with my administrative teams and, and really grew them more now, knowing what I know now, 10 years ago. Um, I've actually started a company, Managing Leadership LLC, that is just that.
[00:13:21] It's, it's looking at identity formation, leadership development, and, um, how to really stress the culture of the organization and the relationships. I think that's left out a lot. Did that answer your question?
[00:13:43] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah, and I, you know, I think But one, I appreciate your candor and, uh, vulnerability in sharing kind of the, maybe the, the maybe myths as you look back on the re- reflection. I don't think that's uncommon. Um, and I think, you know, for those districts that are big enough or, you know, have the resources where they have built-in kind of leadership coaches who are actually working directly with the leaders, I think that's a...
[00:14:15] I don't know what the percentage is, but I think it's, I think it's somewhere about 4 in 10 districts might have something like that, is something I've heard. Which means 60% of our, our districts don't have something like that, or they're a- they're, you know, trying to do it in other ways with professional development and things like that.
[00:14:34] Um, what I'm particularly intrigued with right now, something I'm, I'm in the process of developing, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, is a, is a time diagnostic that's super simple and short for a school leader. 'Cause I'm working with a handful of about a dozen school leaders right now, and what I work with them most on is helping them really move from this, on this, along the spectrum from reacting and managing, which is a big part of the job, right?
[00:15:06] You, you ha- you have to react. You're, you're reacting to things and you're managing stuff all the time. But at what percentage of your time is spent managing and reacting versus leading and, and even better transforming, right? And so I've developed this tool that takes a total of about 90 seconds of time over a 4-day period for a school leader to do a self-diagnosis.
[00:15:33] It's like an end-of-day super quick reflection. And you, and, and, and what comes out of that is a, is a, is a pretty detailed report, especially if you can get 10 or more of your leaders in your bui- in your building take this to really see where they're at. And If so many of our leaders are spending their time just reacting and managing, I think, I, I, my theory is I think that's where burnout lives, is if that's all you're doing as a leader, that's where burnout lives.
[00:16:04] And if you can never get to a point where you're actually leading, that's w- where you were h- what you were hired to do, what you're striving to do as a principal is lead, but you're stuck in, in the minutia of, of just reacting all the time, you're gonna eventually burn out. So I don't know, how do you react to that?
[00:16:23] Like, a diagnostic tool and, like, thinking about that, like, how, where, where leaders spend their time, and then the obvious part of that is then, so what? So what do you do with that? You have, you have this report that says, you know, 80% of their time is on the reacting and managing. Now what do you do with it?
[00:16:41] And I have a billion ideas on that, but I'm curious on, uh-
[00:16:46] **Speaker 2:** Yeah, I- ... your
[00:16:46] **Speaker:** thoughts on, on that kind of high
[00:16:48] **Speaker 2:** perspective. The hard part is, is then taking that data and figuring out what to do with it. And, um, there are some important things that you can do with it, and, and coaching is really allowing a person to find themselves.
[00:17:03] And so like that, right there, those 97 s- 90 seconds of self-diagnosis, to me, that information would come back to more professional development, more mentoring. You know, I can tell you what I did, and my book is, you know, has a whole section on the, the systems and structures I had to control my life so that I could stay ahead of the curve.
[00:17:24] Um, I've, I've, I've been accused of being extremely, um, obsessive over my organization or my structures in the day. I have a morning routine. I have things that I do 'cause it's just autopilot. Um, if somebody doesn't wanna take on those behaviors so that they can change, I'm more interested in why. Why, why are you resistant to change?
[00:17:51] Do you really enjoy reacting all the time? And for me, I'm looking at leadership as far as the identity. And so, um, I think that that tool is extremely beneficial because the behaviors, and, and you're right, uh, that's where burnout lives Because it's, it's, it's almost like a cognitive dissonance. You want to be a leader and you're just a manager and you know you're managing.
[00:18:18] And so what you're doing isn't linking up with what you're thinking. And so you have that cognitive dissonance and that's, that causes you issues psychologically.
[00:18:30] **Speaker:** Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, you talk about the systems and, and habits of, of, of the day or the week. One, you know, there, there's training for that, right?
[00:18:47] You can, you can get professional development on that. What I've found with the leaders I work with, um, and I've worked with several just on this exact thing is help them build a system, teach them a system that works. Um, and, but it can't stop there. It's like when you go to a professional development conference or you go to a workshop, you, you go and you retain about 10% if you're lucky, and then you go into the next day and then, and then Tuesday hits you in the face and not you're back to just doing the same thing that you were doing, right?
[00:19:20] Because you don't have time to implement. Um, so it's, it can't, you mentioned mentoring and that's, that's 100% where, where I believe the, the solution lies. It's not exclusive to that, but if you have a system that's followed by the mentoring and the coaching where you can help them create- Yeah ... take those systems and build them into their new habits over a course of time, and then have them have, have a mentor as an accountability partner to actually, um, implement those systems.
[00:19:53] I think that's where change happens, right? That's where you can start getting- It is ... beyond that reacting manager- You
[00:19:58] **Speaker 2:** need to have a system of- ... to lead ... of, of looking at your systems and that, that, that seems odd. But what I mean is, is that, you know, I've taught people I do a 90 for 90 once a month, okay?
[00:20:11] And I spend 90 minutes looking at the next 90 days, and I list everything out as far as what I'm doing for the next three months. And then every week I kind of plan my week based on all the things I'm supposed to be doing. You know, I look at my 90 n- for 90 every week, and I plan my week, you know, and on Sunday I review last week to see what got in the way, what didn't get done, where did I miss.
[00:20:34] That system can be done so many different ways based on how you want to implement it. And that's where like, you know, that, uh, uh, I believe Clear wrote the book Habits, and you're gonna need to start saying, "Okay, so why am I not doing this? How can I match it with what I am doing?" You know, those... He gives a real clear way of how to form habits, and I think that's important.
[00:21:01] **Speaker:** Yes. Yep, 100%. Yeah, if it doesn't become a habit, yeah, it's just, yeah, for sure. It, it never helps you get where you wanna go. It's, yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I like the 90 and 90. I, you know, I do a weekly kind of a glance, you know, a week at a glance, um, make my plan for the next week, and I have kind of a document that w- you know, looks at all my future, you know, priorities and focus areas.
[00:21:32] Um, but I don't do... You say you do the 90 for 90?
[00:21:35] **Speaker 2:** No, no, no. I do it at the end of the month. The
[00:21:37] **Speaker:** 90 every week?
[00:21:38] **Speaker 2:** I would, I would... When I was a superintendent- Okay ... the day after the board meeting when you're licking your wounds- Yeah ... and you're figuring everything out, I would go and I would get my... And my 90 for 90 is in a three-ring binder, and it's on paper, and that's because when I do August's 90 for 90, I look at last year's August.
[00:21:57] I'm looking at August, September, October. So right now, I'm, uh, in, in a couple of weeks I'll do September, October, November, right? Mm-hmm. And because I've done September, I know my wife's birthday's coming up. I knew that two months in advance, so I was able to get stuff, right? I get ahead of the curve.
[00:22:13] That's huge. Yeah. But, uh, I, I spend more than 90 minute, an hour and a half going over the next three months. I list everything from children, house, projects. I've got me time on there. What books am I reading? I mean, it's an exhaustive list of everything, and I can see it, it, it is- I was gonna say, it's probably very different now that you're retired, right?
[00:22:39] as opposed to what it was then because it's a lot opener. Um, but I am now starting the business, and I'm still doing the book and stuff like that, so I still have things I gotta do. But, uh, I always took pride with the fact that, um, a lot of times leaders, if you look inside their day-timer, they see all work stuff.
[00:22:57] I believe that the habits are no good if you're not reviewing them, and so I put everything in there. Uh, my wife and I went out to dinner last night for, um, she came home and she's like, "Let's just go out to dinner." I said, "Okay." And, uh, in my calendar I've got out to dinner with the wife. Why? Mm-hmm.
[00:23:13] Because at the end of the month when I'm looking at what I did and where I spent my time, she better be included.
[00:23:25] **Speaker:** It, it does, to look back can be really valuable. You know, my, my system for nine years as a principal, you know, I'd have a meeting, you know, to, to look ahead at the week. I had a, uh, a format that, that evolved, a framework that I used that like, I used kind of the, the, an fable or idea of like the big rocks, pebbles, and sand, you know?
[00:23:48] And so when I'd build my, my weekly plan, I always started with like, "What are my three big rocks for next week?" Um, just to center myself on like, "What are my priorities for this next week?" So part of that would be driven by my, you know, our objectives for the year, my priorities for the next three months, or whatever it is.
[00:24:06] Um, I'd start with my big rocks, then I'd go into, you know, the to-dos and the, the, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then I'd always leave a section of my, of my framework for like the whirlwind, I call it. Like all the stuff that's gonna come at you throughout the week that I, I would just kind of, kind of create space for to capture as it was.
[00:24:27] And then at the end of the week, I would take that document and I'd put it in a folder in my, in my file cabinet, and then I'd start a fresh one for the next week and so on and so forth. When I left my principalship in 2023, I had nine years of what I did every week, um, in, in folders. It was, it was pretty cool.
[00:24:51] And stupid me, I didn't keep 'em, and I wish I would've. I don't think I would've... I mean, I, you know, you're leaving, you have so much stuff after you accumulated, you know, as I'm sure you did this last year, so leaving your superintendency, but I wish I would've kept them. I don't know why, but some nostalgia or whatever, but it's like nine years of, of, of week by week, what were, what were my big rocks-
[00:25:15] October
[00:25:15] **Speaker 2:** of
[00:25:16] **Speaker:** 2000 and-
[00:25:17] **Speaker 2:** What you're, what you're speaking about is so important- Oh, but you, but I, I, here's- ... the three big rocks 'cause, um, another practice that I do that has helped keep me sane and, and, and developed my own mindfulness meditations and whatnot is f- I, I said, you know, I did, I explained the 90 for 90, and I can look at last year's versus this year's, right?
[00:25:36] And it's in a three-ring binder. So I, I'm reviewing always last year, and then every week I, I plan the week and I always, um, like you do, what are my priorities for this week? And, um, to make sure I'm guiding right. But then every morning I journal. I journal for five minutes every morning, and I pick three things I'm gonna do that day.
[00:25:57] And the next day I'll comment on that day's post in my, in my, um, in my journal if I got 'em done or not, and if I didn't, what got in the way. But the key with that is, is I explained this in my book how I, how I set this whole thing up, but I've got, I've done this for so long, I read last year's journal this, today, and I read five years ago today.
[00:26:23] And it, and, and what's neat about that- That is, is I'm constantly reflecting on- Oh, that's interesting ... oh man, five years ago. I relived COVID five years later and thinking the stuff that was, like, causing me an ulcer really wasn't that big of a deal. And there are moments when I was in the superintendency, I'd be going, "Oh my God, this is gonna be terrible."
[00:26:43] And then I'd stop and I'd go, "What will I be saying about this in a year and in five years?" And I know that in five years it's gonna be water under the bridge. And so I learned through that practice that-
[00:26:56] **Speaker:** Yeah ...
[00:26:57] **Speaker 2:** uh, you know, it, you just keep going. But if you're not reviewing the work that you've done, like having that- Yeah
[00:27:04] that big pile of stuff is cool, but the growth happens in the reflection and the, the review of that. And so having a system where you go back and you do that constantly, I, I s- that has paid most dividends for me in my, in my development as a leader, and I explain that all in The Leader Within.
[00:27:29] **Speaker:** You know, that's a practice out of this conversation, two things I'm gonna, uh, so far take away is the 90 for 90 once a month looking at the next three months. I, I do that, but don't do it in a, in a systematic framework, so I'm gonna adopt that one. And I don't, I don't journal. I don't, I don't do that, but what you described, you know, a five-minute journal look, look back and having kind of this running record of-
[00:28:03] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:28:03] **Speaker:** what you did on a particular, what you were thinking about that particular day, what you were trying to accomplish. And you're, you're absolutely right though that there's so much power in reflection in so many ways to go, to be able to look back and say, "Where was I a year ago and two years ago?" And I, I mean, that's how I feel on this journey since I left my principalship is like I've made some massive changes in what I'm doing professionally.
[00:28:27] And, uh, a year ago, to think about, like, where I was a year ago and what I knew or what I learned, what I've learned over the last, uh, course of a year or two or whatever, y- it's, it's mind-boggling. But I don't have any, like, written record of it. I just know it's true. Um, but I don't have a, a... So my daughter's really good at journaling and, uh-
[00:28:49] **Speaker 2:** It's-
[00:28:49] **Speaker:** I've never made that a habit, so maybe
[00:28:52] **Speaker 2:** you'll inspire me- It's, it, it's really just that simple ... to make that my goal. Is in my Google Drive I've got a document called 2025 October, 2024 October. I actually have 2017 October, right? And that's my month. And so today in my recents on my Google you'll see, uh, 2021 Oc- uh, August, 2025 August, and 2026 August.
[00:29:19] And I, I mean, I'm talking about it's less than 100 words that I put in there. I talk about what am I feeling, what am I, what am I dealing with, and what are the three things I wanna deal with today, because that's my focus, and it sets my mind for the day and it's, it's really good. But the key is- Yeah ... is the systems for working on your
[00:29:37] **Speaker:** systems.
[00:29:39] **Speaker 2:** And that's what I, I explain in my, uh, my book, um, because I've got attitudes, behaviors, practices, identity, and purpose, and I, I call that the leadership gateway.
[00:29:54] **Speaker:** Yeah. Let's, let's d- talk and, you know, take the next five minutes and talk- Yes ... a little bit more in detail about your book. So it's called The Leader Within.
[00:30:01] **Speaker 2:** Um- It, it, it means that, um- What does
[00:30:03] **Speaker:** that title mean to you? ...
[00:30:04] **Speaker 2:** inside of me, it, and I don't do a really good job of explaining it in this book, but in my next book, I'm talking about identity formation.
[00:30:13] I'm talking about becoming and transforming into the person I want to be And I do that through, I, I, uh, the book's written based on Lao Tzu's quote, you know, "Watch your words for they become your... Watch your thoughts for they become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, habits become your character, character becomes your destiny," right?
[00:30:37] And I tweaked that a bit and I said, you know, I'm gonna start with my attitudes, mindfulness. I meditate, I read the Bible every day, meditate every day, journal every day. Then there's the behaviors, the 90 for 90, the, the planning, right? And then you've got practices where you, you have the systems where you've do this every day.
[00:30:58] It's like habits, but unlike just a habit of doing it, I call it practices because I want to make sure that my behaviors are aligned with my identity, which your practices are your habits that form your character. So I go from practices to identity. And identity is purpose. You know, it, it defines my purpose.
[00:31:19] And so I, I see it as an archway where attitudes and purpose are the foundation of the two sides of a gate. Behaviors and identity, behaviors are built off of your ident- off of your attitudes, and your identity's built off of your purposes. You know, you, you... I'm an educator because I value education. And the practices is the keystone that links that.
[00:31:39] And in my practices, I gotta make sure my behaviors and my identities does not cause me cognitive dissonance. I gotta make sure my attitudes and my purposes, that they're aligned. And I talk about, you know, there was a moment in my career I had to absolutely stop listening to politics. My p- my political identity I had to let go of because my superintendent identity, my leadership identity, and my Christian identity just, the three weren't mashing.
[00:32:11] And so I made a cognitive choice of I don't care about politics that much. I'm gonna let that one go. But that's, that's the, the book in a nutshell is leadership's hard. How do you focus on it, and how do you make sure that, that if you find it that important, you put the time in, and you can't do everything, so what are you gonna let go?
[00:32:36] **Speaker:** Right. So if someone read your book cover to cover, first of all, who's the target audience? Is it a school level leader, a superintendent, anybody that wants to do some leading? And then what would you hope that they take away from it that would make them
[00:32:58] **Speaker 2:** a better leader? I think, um, my target audience, and I say this in, in the first chapter really, is for people that want to develop their leadership skills or for people who want to help others develop their leadership skills.
[00:33:10] It probably speaks to superintendents the most because that's what my experiences are. I think it would speak to principals a lot. I think some CEOs might benefit from it, but there's some, some things that we deal with in education with the community and society that a, a CEO of a big bank isn't gonna be dealing with, you know?
[00:33:33] Um, that's who it, it, it speaks to. What I hope it does is forces people to realize, "I can't do it on my own." My, I, I was never, I never had an executive coach. However, I did have good friends that I would have lunch with, and I would bemoan what's going on at my district, and I would open up, and they would commiserate.
[00:33:57] They would talk. They would ask questions, and I would, I would see it through their eyes. Um, the problem is, is that superintendents, we often keep our cards close to our d- our chest because if our board, if our board thinks we're struggling, well, then they need to hire someone that's not struggling, you know?
[00:34:17] And so it, it's, it's hard for a l- a school leader dealing with a seven-headed monster to really be vulnerable with people around them. And so if they want, they can reach out to me. I don't know their town or whatever. I have always been a very open person, and so I had no issue sitting there with a neighboring district and sharing.
[00:34:41] I've always been that vulnerable guy that's willing to do that. Um, if you're not, you need to find someone else, and that's a coach. But if you don't find a coach, you need a suitable helper of some form to be able to tell you what's wrong, you know? And they come in all shapes and sizes
[00:35:05] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, the power of coaching, I think that comes up in every podcast that we talk, talk about is so important, uh, to be able to have somebody where you can be real, vulnerable, um, and, and have the, get to the real stuff that you're, you're struggling with as a leader, um, whatever that might be, or what the things that maybe it's not so much you're struggling with, but things you're working on, um, to grow as a leader.
[00:35:31] So I think it's, it's
[00:35:33] **Speaker 2:** so important that, uh, everybody have somebody- Yeah, Jack Mezro is the guy that came up with transformational learning, you know? And we got to remember that starts with a disorienting dilemma. It starts with a problem. And then you've got to have a critical reflection through an honest dialogue, you know, and, and really pull it apart for you to evolve and grow as a leader.
[00:35:56] I'm-- my, my, my second book, it's at the end of my first book, but I'm writing my second book now. And I, uh, integrate Mezro's transformational leadership with Kegan's stages of adult development. You know, most adults get to the socialized mind. Well, if you can start objectively looking at the things that you just take for granted, your biases and what you hold subject to, you can evolve to the self-offering mind or the self-transforming mind.
[00:36:25] Those are the goals, but it all starts with that disorienting dilemma. And so what I'm doing right now is teasing apart those dilemmas and really what it comes down to is being, doing, and relating. There's me as the leader, then there's what I do, and then there's the relationship I have with others and within the organization.
[00:36:48] And, um, that comes from Ken, uh, Wilbur's integral theory. So I've kind of taken those three psychological concepts and I'm merging them into my second book and it's identity development of leaders.
[00:37:10] **Speaker:** When you talk, when your book explores, uh, this concept of reoccurring dilemmas that leaders face, um, is that what, what you just said in terms of-
[00:37:21] **Speaker 2:** Uh,
[00:37:21] **Speaker:** relating ... leading and what was your third one? Relating. Are those what you would classify as those universal dilemmas that-
[00:37:31] **Speaker 2:** Yeah,
[00:37:32] **Speaker:** so- ... as artists in school district and what, what you're leading, or what are, are, are there, does your book explore-
[00:37:38] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:37:38] some other- The book that I'm writing right now- ... universal dilemmas that are universal? ... 'cause my first book doesn't talk about this at all, other than it does talk about disorienting dilemmas. But the second book, um, I've done a deeper dive into that. So like for me, um, one of the problems that I had is, uh, I call it the throne dilemma, right?
[00:37:56] And it's in the relating world. And what I found was I spent 19 years as a school superintendent. I've always lived in the district that I've worked. My children have always attended the school of which I work, which means on Sunday when I'm barbecuing some steaks and I realize I don't have the charcoal and I gotta go to the store, I've had to go back inside and change my clothes 'cause I'm not going to the store dressed the way I'm dressed 'cause I'm the superintendent on a Sunday, right?
[00:38:26] And so this whole retirement, people were like, "Well, what are you gonna do?" And what I realized, my identity was so wrapped up in being the superintendent, I got like, I, I called it my retirement life crisis. What, what am I gonna do? I, I, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I felt like a failure because I didn't have anything to do.
[00:38:48] And so I've had to come to terms with that. And doing and relating all come back to what Young would call an ego death. And I think that, you know, coaches can start walking you through these things and saying, "You know, really, how important is it? You know, you're retiring. You were a superintendent for a long time."
[00:39:09] You, you, you know, and, but I had to come to terms with that. And, um, my wife and I did a lot of conversations about that. A good friend of mine, Larry Lovell at a neighboring district, had a lot of conversations about that. And, and ultimately, I'm, I'm perfectly fine being retired now. But that was a throne dilemma because the organization defined me instead of me defining me.
[00:39:32] And that's, that's sad. And I want all leaders to be defined by themselves.
[00:39:38] **Speaker:** Yeah.
[00:39:42] Yeah. No, I can, I can relate to that. You know, when I retired from my principalship, you know, you're ... First of all, like, I just remember this feeling that you, you had this, I don't know, cloak on, or not a cloak, but, uh, this principal, you know, suit, if you will, that you could never take off. It just felt like you were always-
[00:40:09] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:40:10] **Speaker:** it was just your identity. Summer, weekend, whatever, and it was, and it was hard to, to just, you know, I don't know, l- live a normal life almost. But then when you leave that, there is such a s- um, I don't know, it's a, it's a transit- transitional period where you go from, I don't know ... And, and it's not an ego thing, but, um, so many people relying on you in different ways, and you having your position of importance and the relationships you build, and when you leave, you know...
[00:40:51] And I didn't leave retiring like you did. I left, you know, retiring to d- to do something, you know, different. But, uh, there's still a, a, it's a, it's a hard transition because you're, I don't know, you're, so much of your identity is wrapped around that role. And it's, it, it is a job at the end of the day, but it's, it's, it's more than just a 9:00 to 5:00, you punch out and you just go and live your, live your life.
[00:41:16] When you're in the education system like you are, or were, and, and I was, it's, it's, although different roles-
[00:41:22] **Speaker 2:** Yeah, my wife and I were kinda laughing about it because-
[00:41:25] **Speaker:** Yeah.
[00:41:25] **Speaker 2:** As a leader of a school district, you really are into change management, you know? You try to handle change well. And I would always bemoan the teachers that weren't handling the change really well, you know?
[00:41:36] "They need to get on the bus. Let's, let's go. Let's bah, bah, bah, bah, bah." And there's my wife going, "You know, you're really just gonna have to handle this change and get on the bus." And, you know, hearing my own words that I had said over the course of, of my career parroted back to me about how I'm, you know, encouraging other people to accept change, and here I am struggling with it.
[00:41:58] It's like, "Oh, I love you Lee, but come on. That was, that was harsh right there." And she, you know, smiled and we laughed. But... And that's what I'm talking about. You need somebody that can be honest with you and, and not punch you in the gut, but punch you in the gut and, and then give you a hug, you know? 'Cause it, it's true.
[00:42:16] I was not taking the change well, and my role- Yeah ... was always trying to get people to take change well
[00:42:28] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Well, Chris, we're coming up on kind of the final few minutes of this. Um, I always wanna make sure that we leave at least one solid takeaway for our listening audience, you know, whether they're a principal or a vice principal or a superintendent. You've given a few nuggets that I know I'm gonna take away.
[00:42:48] Um, if you give one thing, maybe it's from your book or from your own, you know, professional experience in all your years in education, um, what's one that you wish somebody told you and gave you 20 years ago or, or 30 years ago in your early career that, uh, you would offer somebody today?
[00:43:08] **Speaker 2:** I, I think the most important thing that, that can be said is to find someone to talk to.
[00:43:18] Don't try and cover it all up. Don't think that you've got it all under control. Um, and I'm, I, I know that when you're standing up in front of your faculty, you've gotta emanate that confidence, you know? But you also need to find time where you're not that confident and you're, you know, you don't do that to the masses.
[00:43:35] But you gotta find somebody where you can say, "I don't get this," or, you know, it's, it's, um, we are as human as the next guy. And, and really when I got into administration, I thought I had the answers, and over the 19 years, I, I learned every year a little bit more of what I ... I, I started to know what I didn't know, and that's, that's crucial
[00:44:04] **Speaker:** Yeah, 100% agree. Mentor, coach, somebody that, that you can, uh, lean on, go to, that, uh, is there ready. Yeah, and I was lucky to have a great one when I was, when I was in school administration. So, well, Chris, thank you again. One more plug for your book, The Leader Within. It's coming out in April of this next
[00:44:26] **Speaker 2:** year.
[00:44:27] Um, you can actually- And, uh, where would they find it? The Leader Within, Christopher Grode. It's, you can Google it on, on Amazon. Um, it's a Bloomsbury book. I, I will send you the link so that you can put the pre-sales in the, uh, in the ca- in the nu- in the, um, show notes. Thank you. That's the term.
[00:44:45] **Speaker:** Show notes.
[00:44:46] You bet. Yep, will do. Cool. We'll make sure I get that. Chris, thanks for the conversation. Thanks for your, um, you know, your career and in education and, uh, everything you did for other, whether it's leaders or communities at, and, and as a whole. So appreciate you and,
[00:45:04] **Speaker 2:** and your, uh, your, uh, work as
[00:45:07] **Speaker:** an educator.
[00:45:07] Thank you. I will have to say that your work with Linked Leaders and with this podcast, getting
[00:45:09] **Speaker 2:** the words out for the, um, I have a heart for the administrators of school districts. It's not an easy job. And, uh, I, I, I, the principal is a particularly hard job, um, for a lot of reasons, but, uh-
[00:45:25] **Speaker:** Yeah Without a doubt.
[00:45:29] Yep, absolutely. All right, Chris, thanks again. And, uh, for our listeners, thanks again for tuning in to- All right ... another episode of the Transformative- Thank you ... Principal podcast. Hope to see you again. Take care, Chris. Thank you
[00:00:20] Yeah, we had to bump this I think once or twice, so it's been kind of a long time in the making it seems like.
[00:00:26] **Speaker 2:** But
[00:00:26] **Speaker:** I
[00:00:26] **Speaker 2:** think it lines
[00:00:27] **Speaker:** up
[00:00:27] **Speaker 2:** well with the book launch, right? Yeah, thank you very much. Uh, The Leader Within: Executive Coaching of Educational Leaders will be coming out in April, but you can start the pre-orders now
[00:00:40] **Speaker:** Okay. Right on. We'll get into, uh, the details of that book and, and, uh, lessons learned that you've kind of built into that. But I'd, I like to start these podcasts even before a full introduction with, uh, some, some quick hitters. The lightning round. Usually the lightning round comes at the end. I like to start with the lightning round at the beginning.
[00:01:00] So-
[00:01:01] **Speaker 2:** Yes, sir ...
[00:01:01] **Speaker:** see how, see how, how you do on your feet here. All right. You ready? All right. What's one book you've recommended more than any other to school leaders? Um- It can't be The Leader Within.
[00:01:13] **Speaker 2:** A book I've recommended to school leaders
[00:01:21] I, I, I, I, I'm a big fan of, um, of, um,
[00:01:25] **Speaker:** oh,
[00:01:25] **Speaker 2:** I can't think of the author now, but the, uh, the new science, Leadership and the New Science by, um, Wheatley, I believe. It's, it's kind of a science, it's a science take. It's, it talks about chaos theory- I love this ... and it was, uh, it was back in the, I think it was in the '90s when chaos theory and complexity was really taking form.
[00:01:45] But it introduced me to just the complexity and the beauty of, of leadership
[00:01:56] **Speaker:** Love it. Cool. I love, I love that question. Um, what's one thing about being a superintendent that
[00:02:01] **Speaker 2:** nobody really understands until
[00:02:03] **Speaker:** they've done it? The care and feeding of the seven-headed monster.
[00:02:04] **Speaker 2:** Um, you know, it's like a, it's like a hydra. You gotta keep your eyes on all those heads 'cause if you give one too much attention, the other ones will attack and, and it's just, it's the care and feeding of that beast
[00:02:21] **Speaker:** Oh, I like that. I haven't heard that-
[00:02:23] **Speaker 2:** Yeah. And, and to be fair, if any of my board members are listening- ... most of that, uh, Alex ... or previous
[00:02:27] **Speaker:** board members- But I can
[00:02:27] **Speaker 2:** imagine ... since I am now retired, um, I've loved you all
[00:02:36] **Speaker:** Yeah, I'm sure they will be listening too, so I'm glad you threw that caveat in there. If you could have dinner with any leader living or dead, who would that be and why? Jesus Christ,
[00:02:44] **Speaker 2:** I have a lot
[00:02:44] **Speaker:** of questions
[00:02:51] I, that's, that's mine that, that I usually go to as well. So good, good, great minds think alike. Very, very cool. Um, let's see. What's one leadership phrase or cliche- Oh, I never
[00:03:04] **Speaker 2:** want to hear again? ...
[00:03:05] **Speaker:** never want to hear again
[00:03:10] **Speaker 2:** Um
[00:03:14] **Speaker:** Phrase or cliché
[00:03:16] **Speaker 2:** I don't know. I-- That-- There's so many good ones. I, I like them all. Um
[00:03:24] **Speaker:** Okay, we'll flip it. What is your favorite leadership phrase
[00:03:27] **Speaker 2:** or cliché? I would have to say culture eats leadership for breakfast
[00:03:35] Eat strategy for l- uh, breakfast
[00:03:36] **Speaker:** Culture eats
[00:03:37] **Speaker 2:** strategy for breakfast. Peter, Peter Drucker. I've also heard culture kicks, uh, leadership's ass nine times out of 10.
[00:03:43] **Speaker:** Um, like
[00:03:49] I like it. Cool, cool. Well, well, we'll, we'll jump, jump out of the lightning round into the actual podcast here. So Chris, you spent- Yes ... correct me if I'm wrong, 19 years as a superintendent. Yeah,
[00:03:59] **Speaker 2:** my entire educational career has been in Illinois. All of that in Illinois,
[00:04:02] **Speaker:** if I'm not mistaken
[00:04:07] **Speaker 2:** Prior to being a superintendent? And, uh, what did
[00:04:09] **Speaker:** you do prior to
[00:04:09] **Speaker 2:** that? So, um, I was an assistant superintendent for finance. I did the budgets and the tax levies and did the HR part, the onboarding, the insurance, all of that good stuff, uh, for two years in Central Illinois. My superintendency's been in Southern Illinois and outside of, of, uh, St.
[00:04:25] Louis, which I know is not in Illinois, but it's on the Illinois side of St. Louis. Um, and then my Central Illinois was my assistant superintendency, and then I was a principal and a teacher up in the, uh, Lake County, which is the collar county of Chicago. So I, I've, I've led in all of what we call the three regions of Illinois: uh, Chicagoland, Central, and Downstate.
[00:04:53] **Speaker:** Okay. So think about your first year as a superintendent versus your last year. What was fundamentally different? What, what rings true? Like, what was fundamentally different fr- in, in terms of the state of being a superintendent from your first year to your last year? Not about, like, your own personal leadership, but really like- Oh,
[00:05:19] **Speaker 2:** in the profession?
[00:05:20] **Speaker:** What, what's, what's changed in 20 years? In the profession. It, it- Like, what re- really stands out? Um, I'd have to say technology.
[00:05:25] **Speaker 2:** Yeah. I, uh, I remember when I first started in administration, cell phones were just coming about, you know? I had a, a PalmPilot, and then I had a BlackBerry where I could do my stuff on my phone.
[00:05:42] Um, for some of your younger listeners, they're like, "What?" But, uh, I remember older superintendents, my... the superintendent that I worked for at the time, Dr. Maloney, he, uh, he hated cell phones. He thought it was the, the worst part of, um, of, of education that was gonna destroy everything. I can't imagine being a superintendent without my cell phone, being able to take my office with me.
[00:06:06] That said, as I'm leaving and I'm the old superintendent, um, the younger generation seems to enjoy social media a little bit more than I do. I'm not comfortable posting things out there and everything. And so, um, it just, for me, it's been the evolution of how technology's used, how you manage your, um, your district's brand, uh, and all of that stuff.
[00:06:35] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, related to technology, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, I've, I, I've always been kind of I don't know, like stay ahead of the curve or really technology forward in every kind of role I've had in, in, in education. And, um, I remember, you know, well, whatever, 20 years ago or whatever the, the big push, you know, is obviously more technology and utilizing technology and online and blended and, and all this stuff.
[00:07:11] But now there's so many, so much, such a big push to pull back from technology in the classroom. So, I mean, that's, seeing that all over the news right now. And so that's a huge shakeup to, to s- in, you know, invest all this time and energy and, and dollars towards building classrooms, personalized, you know, learning environments around the use of technology and the, and the s- the advances you get with that.
[00:07:40] But now limiting screen time, which I get, like I get, you know, I totally get both, both sides of it. There's with like everything, there's a happy- I- ... finding that happy medium or balance. I,
[00:07:51] **Speaker 2:** I will have to say that I think that that is why I liked- Um, what do you think about that? ... uh, leadership in the new science and talks about complexity because we...
[00:08:02] People talk about the pendulum, and we go from the left to the right, and we're always saying how important that middle ground is. And I think with technology, we're missing the boat. Illinois, um, is going and pushing toward transitioning to a state law where no cell phones can be used in the school. And I think that's sad.
[00:08:19] Um, I think that what needs to happen is, is for people to have a smartphone, you should have a license. I've got kids that are committing felonies with their videos and forwarding videos that they shouldn't be forwarding, um, because they've got a tool in their hand that no one understands how powerful it is.
[00:08:37] I think that if you want your kid to have a phone, we should bring back the old flip phones where you can only play Snake, so your kid can text and they can call. But to actually have the internet and video and, um, cameras and everything else in their pocket and bring that into school, that's, that's ridiculous.
[00:08:56] Now, I think those flip phones need to be like the old BlackBerries where I can do, uh, assignments and I can do, um, tasks because I manage my life with my cell phone. It's integrated with my laptop. It's integrated with my iPad. It... We need to teach the kids how to use that tool 'cause it's a great tool.
[00:09:16] But no, they're gonna just ban it completely instead of tweaking it and saying, "Well, let c- can we turn off the stuff that's not working so well or make a law where they can't have that anymore?" I'm sure the cell phone companies would love to start selling new phones that are flip phones for the younger generations and then selling new phones when they, you know, with the smartphones when they get to a certain age and pass a license.
[00:09:44] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's a complicated beast. I mean, where I go instantly is like, okay, you can make all the school policies you want, but it's still, you know, the family's decision on what technology they buy and when they buy it for their child and all those kind of things. So, so the challenges, you know, that schools have obviously is how do you manage that or eliminate that or limit that in the school environment, the classroom environment, and that's a battle in itself.
[00:10:16] But in terms of what device, phone device they have, ooh, that's a whole separate Yeah. I don't, I don't even wanna go, go, go in that direction. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's all very complicated, you know, and you haven't even mentioned AI and kind of where all that fits in, but that's not the focus of this podcast.
[00:10:35] We don't have to go there. I re- I really wanna talk about developing leaders because of your book and what, what you've done. Um, and it's something I'm, like, very in- you know, very interested in, um, in the work I'm doing with LEAP Leaders and what we're trying to build. So let's talk about how... You know, I'm really curious about kinda your- Mm-hmm
[00:10:55] experience and approach on developing your bench, if you will, um, in your, in your schools, um, that you work with. So let's, let's maybe start with, um, who, who did you see as like the key support system that you put in place for developing and supporting your school-level leaders? They spend so much of their time and energy developing their teachers, developing their, you know, the, the rest of their staff, and being that servant leader for others, but oftentimes it's the leaders that kind of get left out without getting that kind of same, um, development for, for themselves.
[00:11:40] And not just professional development, but the nourishing and type of support to, uh, that kind of keep them balanced and, and, and grounded as leaders.
[00:11:49] **Speaker 2:** Um, I approached it- How did you approach that as a superintendent? ... very, very badly, and I say that with all the love and honesty in my heart. I, uh... It's kinda like when you, you know, the...
[00:12:00] Over the 19 years I was a superintendent, I thought I knew everything at the beginning, and at the end I started to realize I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. And, um, you know, with age comes wisdom, and part of wisdom is knowing what you don't know. When I was close to retirement, I went back to school and got my PhD in Industrial Organizational Psychology because I felt like the HR and that portion of the superintendency training was a little bit lacking, and I thought, "In retirement, maybe I'll be a professor."
[00:12:29] I did my dissertation actually interviewing executive coaches for, um, school leaders, superintendents specifically, and looked at their strategies. And what I found was I was not developing leaders very well as a superintendent. So, um, it's from that that I actually, from the dissertation that I wrote, The, uh, Leader Within, and it talks about my own leadership development that I did for myself- Mm
[00:12:56] and the people in my life that helped me. Because we need those outside eyes to really- hone in on that. And I think that now I could, I could have worked with my administrative teams and, and really grew them more now, knowing what I know now, 10 years ago. Um, I've actually started a company, Managing Leadership LLC, that is just that.
[00:13:21] It's, it's looking at identity formation, leadership development, and, um, how to really stress the culture of the organization and the relationships. I think that's left out a lot. Did that answer your question?
[00:13:43] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah, and I, you know, I think But one, I appreciate your candor and, uh, vulnerability in sharing kind of the, maybe the, the maybe myths as you look back on the re- reflection. I don't think that's uncommon. Um, and I think, you know, for those districts that are big enough or, you know, have the resources where they have built-in kind of leadership coaches who are actually working directly with the leaders, I think that's a...
[00:14:15] I don't know what the percentage is, but I think it's, I think it's somewhere about 4 in 10 districts might have something like that, is something I've heard. Which means 60% of our, our districts don't have something like that, or they're a- they're, you know, trying to do it in other ways with professional development and things like that.
[00:14:34] Um, what I'm particularly intrigued with right now, something I'm, I'm in the process of developing, I'd like to get your thoughts on this, is a, is a time diagnostic that's super simple and short for a school leader. 'Cause I'm working with a handful of about a dozen school leaders right now, and what I work with them most on is helping them really move from this, on this, along the spectrum from reacting and managing, which is a big part of the job, right?
[00:15:06] You, you ha- you have to react. You're, you're reacting to things and you're managing stuff all the time. But at what percentage of your time is spent managing and reacting versus leading and, and even better transforming, right? And so I've developed this tool that takes a total of about 90 seconds of time over a 4-day period for a school leader to do a self-diagnosis.
[00:15:33] It's like an end-of-day super quick reflection. And you, and, and, and what comes out of that is a, is a, is a pretty detailed report, especially if you can get 10 or more of your leaders in your bui- in your building take this to really see where they're at. And If so many of our leaders are spending their time just reacting and managing, I think, I, I, my theory is I think that's where burnout lives, is if that's all you're doing as a leader, that's where burnout lives.
[00:16:04] And if you can never get to a point where you're actually leading, that's w- where you were h- what you were hired to do, what you're striving to do as a principal is lead, but you're stuck in, in the minutia of, of just reacting all the time, you're gonna eventually burn out. So I don't know, how do you react to that?
[00:16:23] Like, a diagnostic tool and, like, thinking about that, like, how, where, where leaders spend their time, and then the obvious part of that is then, so what? So what do you do with that? You have, you have this report that says, you know, 80% of their time is on the reacting and managing. Now what do you do with it?
[00:16:41] And I have a billion ideas on that, but I'm curious on, uh-
[00:16:46] **Speaker 2:** Yeah, I- ... your
[00:16:46] **Speaker:** thoughts on, on that kind of high
[00:16:48] **Speaker 2:** perspective. The hard part is, is then taking that data and figuring out what to do with it. And, um, there are some important things that you can do with it, and, and coaching is really allowing a person to find themselves.
[00:17:03] And so like that, right there, those 97 s- 90 seconds of self-diagnosis, to me, that information would come back to more professional development, more mentoring. You know, I can tell you what I did, and my book is, you know, has a whole section on the, the systems and structures I had to control my life so that I could stay ahead of the curve.
[00:17:24] Um, I've, I've, I've been accused of being extremely, um, obsessive over my organization or my structures in the day. I have a morning routine. I have things that I do 'cause it's just autopilot. Um, if somebody doesn't wanna take on those behaviors so that they can change, I'm more interested in why. Why, why are you resistant to change?
[00:17:51] Do you really enjoy reacting all the time? And for me, I'm looking at leadership as far as the identity. And so, um, I think that that tool is extremely beneficial because the behaviors, and, and you're right, uh, that's where burnout lives Because it's, it's, it's almost like a cognitive dissonance. You want to be a leader and you're just a manager and you know you're managing.
[00:18:18] And so what you're doing isn't linking up with what you're thinking. And so you have that cognitive dissonance and that's, that causes you issues psychologically.
[00:18:30] **Speaker:** Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, you talk about the systems and, and habits of, of, of the day or the week. One, you know, there, there's training for that, right?
[00:18:47] You can, you can get professional development on that. What I've found with the leaders I work with, um, and I've worked with several just on this exact thing is help them build a system, teach them a system that works. Um, and, but it can't stop there. It's like when you go to a professional development conference or you go to a workshop, you, you go and you retain about 10% if you're lucky, and then you go into the next day and then, and then Tuesday hits you in the face and not you're back to just doing the same thing that you were doing, right?
[00:19:20] Because you don't have time to implement. Um, so it's, it can't, you mentioned mentoring and that's, that's 100% where, where I believe the, the solution lies. It's not exclusive to that, but if you have a system that's followed by the mentoring and the coaching where you can help them create- Yeah ... take those systems and build them into their new habits over a course of time, and then have them have, have a mentor as an accountability partner to actually, um, implement those systems.
[00:19:53] I think that's where change happens, right? That's where you can start getting- It is ... beyond that reacting manager- You
[00:19:58] **Speaker 2:** need to have a system of- ... to lead ... of, of looking at your systems and that, that, that seems odd. But what I mean is, is that, you know, I've taught people I do a 90 for 90 once a month, okay?
[00:20:11] And I spend 90 minutes looking at the next 90 days, and I list everything out as far as what I'm doing for the next three months. And then every week I kind of plan my week based on all the things I'm supposed to be doing. You know, I look at my 90 n- for 90 every week, and I plan my week, you know, and on Sunday I review last week to see what got in the way, what didn't get done, where did I miss.
[00:20:34] That system can be done so many different ways based on how you want to implement it. And that's where like, you know, that, uh, uh, I believe Clear wrote the book Habits, and you're gonna need to start saying, "Okay, so why am I not doing this? How can I match it with what I am doing?" You know, those... He gives a real clear way of how to form habits, and I think that's important.
[00:21:01] **Speaker:** Yes. Yep, 100%. Yeah, if it doesn't become a habit, yeah, it's just, yeah, for sure. It, it never helps you get where you wanna go. It's, yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I like the 90 and 90. I, you know, I do a weekly kind of a glance, you know, a week at a glance, um, make my plan for the next week, and I have kind of a document that w- you know, looks at all my future, you know, priorities and focus areas.
[00:21:32] Um, but I don't do... You say you do the 90 for 90?
[00:21:35] **Speaker 2:** No, no, no. I do it at the end of the month. The
[00:21:37] **Speaker:** 90 every week?
[00:21:38] **Speaker 2:** I would, I would... When I was a superintendent- Okay ... the day after the board meeting when you're licking your wounds- Yeah ... and you're figuring everything out, I would go and I would get my... And my 90 for 90 is in a three-ring binder, and it's on paper, and that's because when I do August's 90 for 90, I look at last year's August.
[00:21:57] I'm looking at August, September, October. So right now, I'm, uh, in, in a couple of weeks I'll do September, October, November, right? Mm-hmm. And because I've done September, I know my wife's birthday's coming up. I knew that two months in advance, so I was able to get stuff, right? I get ahead of the curve.
[00:22:13] That's huge. Yeah. But, uh, I, I spend more than 90 minute, an hour and a half going over the next three months. I list everything from children, house, projects. I've got me time on there. What books am I reading? I mean, it's an exhaustive list of everything, and I can see it, it, it is- I was gonna say, it's probably very different now that you're retired, right?
[00:22:39] as opposed to what it was then because it's a lot opener. Um, but I am now starting the business, and I'm still doing the book and stuff like that, so I still have things I gotta do. But, uh, I always took pride with the fact that, um, a lot of times leaders, if you look inside their day-timer, they see all work stuff.
[00:22:57] I believe that the habits are no good if you're not reviewing them, and so I put everything in there. Uh, my wife and I went out to dinner last night for, um, she came home and she's like, "Let's just go out to dinner." I said, "Okay." And, uh, in my calendar I've got out to dinner with the wife. Why? Mm-hmm.
[00:23:13] Because at the end of the month when I'm looking at what I did and where I spent my time, she better be included.
[00:23:25] **Speaker:** It, it does, to look back can be really valuable. You know, my, my system for nine years as a principal, you know, I'd have a meeting, you know, to, to look ahead at the week. I had a, uh, a format that, that evolved, a framework that I used that like, I used kind of the, the, an fable or idea of like the big rocks, pebbles, and sand, you know?
[00:23:48] And so when I'd build my, my weekly plan, I always started with like, "What are my three big rocks for next week?" Um, just to center myself on like, "What are my priorities for this next week?" So part of that would be driven by my, you know, our objectives for the year, my priorities for the next three months, or whatever it is.
[00:24:06] Um, I'd start with my big rocks, then I'd go into, you know, the to-dos and the, the, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then I'd always leave a section of my, of my framework for like the whirlwind, I call it. Like all the stuff that's gonna come at you throughout the week that I, I would just kind of, kind of create space for to capture as it was.
[00:24:27] And then at the end of the week, I would take that document and I'd put it in a folder in my, in my file cabinet, and then I'd start a fresh one for the next week and so on and so forth. When I left my principalship in 2023, I had nine years of what I did every week, um, in, in folders. It was, it was pretty cool.
[00:24:51] And stupid me, I didn't keep 'em, and I wish I would've. I don't think I would've... I mean, I, you know, you're leaving, you have so much stuff after you accumulated, you know, as I'm sure you did this last year, so leaving your superintendency, but I wish I would've kept them. I don't know why, but some nostalgia or whatever, but it's like nine years of, of, of week by week, what were, what were my big rocks-
[00:25:15] October
[00:25:15] **Speaker 2:** of
[00:25:16] **Speaker:** 2000 and-
[00:25:17] **Speaker 2:** What you're, what you're speaking about is so important- Oh, but you, but I, I, here's- ... the three big rocks 'cause, um, another practice that I do that has helped keep me sane and, and, and developed my own mindfulness meditations and whatnot is f- I, I said, you know, I did, I explained the 90 for 90, and I can look at last year's versus this year's, right?
[00:25:36] And it's in a three-ring binder. So I, I'm reviewing always last year, and then every week I, I plan the week and I always, um, like you do, what are my priorities for this week? And, um, to make sure I'm guiding right. But then every morning I journal. I journal for five minutes every morning, and I pick three things I'm gonna do that day.
[00:25:57] And the next day I'll comment on that day's post in my, in my, um, in my journal if I got 'em done or not, and if I didn't, what got in the way. But the key with that is, is I explained this in my book how I, how I set this whole thing up, but I've got, I've done this for so long, I read last year's journal this, today, and I read five years ago today.
[00:26:23] And it, and, and what's neat about that- That is, is I'm constantly reflecting on- Oh, that's interesting ... oh man, five years ago. I relived COVID five years later and thinking the stuff that was, like, causing me an ulcer really wasn't that big of a deal. And there are moments when I was in the superintendency, I'd be going, "Oh my God, this is gonna be terrible."
[00:26:43] And then I'd stop and I'd go, "What will I be saying about this in a year and in five years?" And I know that in five years it's gonna be water under the bridge. And so I learned through that practice that-
[00:26:56] **Speaker:** Yeah ...
[00:26:57] **Speaker 2:** uh, you know, it, you just keep going. But if you're not reviewing the work that you've done, like having that- Yeah
[00:27:04] that big pile of stuff is cool, but the growth happens in the reflection and the, the review of that. And so having a system where you go back and you do that constantly, I, I s- that has paid most dividends for me in my, in my development as a leader, and I explain that all in The Leader Within.
[00:27:29] **Speaker:** You know, that's a practice out of this conversation, two things I'm gonna, uh, so far take away is the 90 for 90 once a month looking at the next three months. I, I do that, but don't do it in a, in a systematic framework, so I'm gonna adopt that one. And I don't, I don't journal. I don't, I don't do that, but what you described, you know, a five-minute journal look, look back and having kind of this running record of-
[00:28:03] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:28:03] **Speaker:** what you did on a particular, what you were thinking about that particular day, what you were trying to accomplish. And you're, you're absolutely right though that there's so much power in reflection in so many ways to go, to be able to look back and say, "Where was I a year ago and two years ago?" And I, I mean, that's how I feel on this journey since I left my principalship is like I've made some massive changes in what I'm doing professionally.
[00:28:27] And, uh, a year ago, to think about, like, where I was a year ago and what I knew or what I learned, what I've learned over the last, uh, course of a year or two or whatever, y- it's, it's mind-boggling. But I don't have any, like, written record of it. I just know it's true. Um, but I don't have a, a... So my daughter's really good at journaling and, uh-
[00:28:49] **Speaker 2:** It's-
[00:28:49] **Speaker:** I've never made that a habit, so maybe
[00:28:52] **Speaker 2:** you'll inspire me- It's, it, it's really just that simple ... to make that my goal. Is in my Google Drive I've got a document called 2025 October, 2024 October. I actually have 2017 October, right? And that's my month. And so today in my recents on my Google you'll see, uh, 2021 Oc- uh, August, 2025 August, and 2026 August.
[00:29:19] And I, I mean, I'm talking about it's less than 100 words that I put in there. I talk about what am I feeling, what am I, what am I dealing with, and what are the three things I wanna deal with today, because that's my focus, and it sets my mind for the day and it's, it's really good. But the key is- Yeah ... is the systems for working on your
[00:29:37] **Speaker:** systems.
[00:29:39] **Speaker 2:** And that's what I, I explain in my, uh, my book, um, because I've got attitudes, behaviors, practices, identity, and purpose, and I, I call that the leadership gateway.
[00:29:54] **Speaker:** Yeah. Let's, let's d- talk and, you know, take the next five minutes and talk- Yes ... a little bit more in detail about your book. So it's called The Leader Within.
[00:30:01] **Speaker 2:** Um- It, it, it means that, um- What does
[00:30:03] **Speaker:** that title mean to you? ...
[00:30:04] **Speaker 2:** inside of me, it, and I don't do a really good job of explaining it in this book, but in my next book, I'm talking about identity formation.
[00:30:13] I'm talking about becoming and transforming into the person I want to be And I do that through, I, I, uh, the book's written based on Lao Tzu's quote, you know, "Watch your words for they become your... Watch your thoughts for they become your words, your words become your actions, your actions become your habits, habits become your character, character becomes your destiny," right?
[00:30:37] And I tweaked that a bit and I said, you know, I'm gonna start with my attitudes, mindfulness. I meditate, I read the Bible every day, meditate every day, journal every day. Then there's the behaviors, the 90 for 90, the, the planning, right? And then you've got practices where you, you have the systems where you've do this every day.
[00:30:58] It's like habits, but unlike just a habit of doing it, I call it practices because I want to make sure that my behaviors are aligned with my identity, which your practices are your habits that form your character. So I go from practices to identity. And identity is purpose. You know, it, it defines my purpose.
[00:31:19] And so I, I see it as an archway where attitudes and purpose are the foundation of the two sides of a gate. Behaviors and identity, behaviors are built off of your ident- off of your attitudes, and your identity's built off of your purposes. You know, you, you... I'm an educator because I value education. And the practices is the keystone that links that.
[00:31:39] And in my practices, I gotta make sure my behaviors and my identities does not cause me cognitive dissonance. I gotta make sure my attitudes and my purposes, that they're aligned. And I talk about, you know, there was a moment in my career I had to absolutely stop listening to politics. My p- my political identity I had to let go of because my superintendent identity, my leadership identity, and my Christian identity just, the three weren't mashing.
[00:32:11] And so I made a cognitive choice of I don't care about politics that much. I'm gonna let that one go. But that's, that's the, the book in a nutshell is leadership's hard. How do you focus on it, and how do you make sure that, that if you find it that important, you put the time in, and you can't do everything, so what are you gonna let go?
[00:32:36] **Speaker:** Right. So if someone read your book cover to cover, first of all, who's the target audience? Is it a school level leader, a superintendent, anybody that wants to do some leading? And then what would you hope that they take away from it that would make them
[00:32:58] **Speaker 2:** a better leader? I think, um, my target audience, and I say this in, in the first chapter really, is for people that want to develop their leadership skills or for people who want to help others develop their leadership skills.
[00:33:10] It probably speaks to superintendents the most because that's what my experiences are. I think it would speak to principals a lot. I think some CEOs might benefit from it, but there's some, some things that we deal with in education with the community and society that a, a CEO of a big bank isn't gonna be dealing with, you know?
[00:33:33] Um, that's who it, it, it speaks to. What I hope it does is forces people to realize, "I can't do it on my own." My, I, I was never, I never had an executive coach. However, I did have good friends that I would have lunch with, and I would bemoan what's going on at my district, and I would open up, and they would commiserate.
[00:33:57] They would talk. They would ask questions, and I would, I would see it through their eyes. Um, the problem is, is that superintendents, we often keep our cards close to our d- our chest because if our board, if our board thinks we're struggling, well, then they need to hire someone that's not struggling, you know?
[00:34:17] And so it, it's, it's hard for a l- a school leader dealing with a seven-headed monster to really be vulnerable with people around them. And so if they want, they can reach out to me. I don't know their town or whatever. I have always been a very open person, and so I had no issue sitting there with a neighboring district and sharing.
[00:34:41] I've always been that vulnerable guy that's willing to do that. Um, if you're not, you need to find someone else, and that's a coach. But if you don't find a coach, you need a suitable helper of some form to be able to tell you what's wrong, you know? And they come in all shapes and sizes
[00:35:05] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, the power of coaching, I think that comes up in every podcast that we talk, talk about is so important, uh, to be able to have somebody where you can be real, vulnerable, um, and, and have the, get to the real stuff that you're, you're struggling with as a leader, um, whatever that might be, or what the things that maybe it's not so much you're struggling with, but things you're working on, um, to grow as a leader.
[00:35:31] So I think it's, it's
[00:35:33] **Speaker 2:** so important that, uh, everybody have somebody- Yeah, Jack Mezro is the guy that came up with transformational learning, you know? And we got to remember that starts with a disorienting dilemma. It starts with a problem. And then you've got to have a critical reflection through an honest dialogue, you know, and, and really pull it apart for you to evolve and grow as a leader.
[00:35:56] I'm-- my, my, my second book, it's at the end of my first book, but I'm writing my second book now. And I, uh, integrate Mezro's transformational leadership with Kegan's stages of adult development. You know, most adults get to the socialized mind. Well, if you can start objectively looking at the things that you just take for granted, your biases and what you hold subject to, you can evolve to the self-offering mind or the self-transforming mind.
[00:36:25] Those are the goals, but it all starts with that disorienting dilemma. And so what I'm doing right now is teasing apart those dilemmas and really what it comes down to is being, doing, and relating. There's me as the leader, then there's what I do, and then there's the relationship I have with others and within the organization.
[00:36:48] And, um, that comes from Ken, uh, Wilbur's integral theory. So I've kind of taken those three psychological concepts and I'm merging them into my second book and it's identity development of leaders.
[00:37:10] **Speaker:** When you talk, when your book explores, uh, this concept of reoccurring dilemmas that leaders face, um, is that what, what you just said in terms of-
[00:37:21] **Speaker 2:** Uh,
[00:37:21] **Speaker:** relating ... leading and what was your third one? Relating. Are those what you would classify as those universal dilemmas that-
[00:37:31] **Speaker 2:** Yeah,
[00:37:32] **Speaker:** so- ... as artists in school district and what, what you're leading, or what are, are, are there, does your book explore-
[00:37:38] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:37:38] some other- The book that I'm writing right now- ... universal dilemmas that are universal? ... 'cause my first book doesn't talk about this at all, other than it does talk about disorienting dilemmas. But the second book, um, I've done a deeper dive into that. So like for me, um, one of the problems that I had is, uh, I call it the throne dilemma, right?
[00:37:56] And it's in the relating world. And what I found was I spent 19 years as a school superintendent. I've always lived in the district that I've worked. My children have always attended the school of which I work, which means on Sunday when I'm barbecuing some steaks and I realize I don't have the charcoal and I gotta go to the store, I've had to go back inside and change my clothes 'cause I'm not going to the store dressed the way I'm dressed 'cause I'm the superintendent on a Sunday, right?
[00:38:26] And so this whole retirement, people were like, "Well, what are you gonna do?" And what I realized, my identity was so wrapped up in being the superintendent, I got like, I, I called it my retirement life crisis. What, what am I gonna do? I, I, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I felt like a failure because I didn't have anything to do.
[00:38:48] And so I've had to come to terms with that. And doing and relating all come back to what Young would call an ego death. And I think that, you know, coaches can start walking you through these things and saying, "You know, really, how important is it? You know, you're retiring. You were a superintendent for a long time."
[00:39:09] You, you, you know, and, but I had to come to terms with that. And, um, my wife and I did a lot of conversations about that. A good friend of mine, Larry Lovell at a neighboring district, had a lot of conversations about that. And, and ultimately, I'm, I'm perfectly fine being retired now. But that was a throne dilemma because the organization defined me instead of me defining me.
[00:39:32] And that's, that's sad. And I want all leaders to be defined by themselves.
[00:39:38] **Speaker:** Yeah.
[00:39:42] Yeah. No, I can, I can relate to that. You know, when I retired from my principalship, you know, you're ... First of all, like, I just remember this feeling that you, you had this, I don't know, cloak on, or not a cloak, but, uh, this principal, you know, suit, if you will, that you could never take off. It just felt like you were always-
[00:40:09] **Speaker 2:** Yeah
[00:40:10] **Speaker:** it was just your identity. Summer, weekend, whatever, and it was, and it was hard to, to just, you know, I don't know, l- live a normal life almost. But then when you leave that, there is such a s- um, I don't know, it's a, it's a transit- transitional period where you go from, I don't know ... And, and it's not an ego thing, but, um, so many people relying on you in different ways, and you having your position of importance and the relationships you build, and when you leave, you know...
[00:40:51] And I didn't leave retiring like you did. I left, you know, retiring to d- to do something, you know, different. But, uh, there's still a, a, it's a, it's a hard transition because you're, I don't know, you're, so much of your identity is wrapped around that role. And it's, it, it is a job at the end of the day, but it's, it's, it's more than just a 9:00 to 5:00, you punch out and you just go and live your, live your life.
[00:41:16] When you're in the education system like you are, or were, and, and I was, it's, it's, although different roles-
[00:41:22] **Speaker 2:** Yeah, my wife and I were kinda laughing about it because-
[00:41:25] **Speaker:** Yeah.
[00:41:25] **Speaker 2:** As a leader of a school district, you really are into change management, you know? You try to handle change well. And I would always bemoan the teachers that weren't handling the change really well, you know?
[00:41:36] "They need to get on the bus. Let's, let's go. Let's bah, bah, bah, bah, bah." And there's my wife going, "You know, you're really just gonna have to handle this change and get on the bus." And, you know, hearing my own words that I had said over the course of, of my career parroted back to me about how I'm, you know, encouraging other people to accept change, and here I am struggling with it.
[00:41:58] It's like, "Oh, I love you Lee, but come on. That was, that was harsh right there." And she, you know, smiled and we laughed. But... And that's what I'm talking about. You need somebody that can be honest with you and, and not punch you in the gut, but punch you in the gut and, and then give you a hug, you know? 'Cause it, it's true.
[00:42:16] I was not taking the change well, and my role- Yeah ... was always trying to get people to take change well
[00:42:28] **Speaker:** Yeah. Yeah. Well, Chris, we're coming up on kind of the final few minutes of this. Um, I always wanna make sure that we leave at least one solid takeaway for our listening audience, you know, whether they're a principal or a vice principal or a superintendent. You've given a few nuggets that I know I'm gonna take away.
[00:42:48] Um, if you give one thing, maybe it's from your book or from your own, you know, professional experience in all your years in education, um, what's one that you wish somebody told you and gave you 20 years ago or, or 30 years ago in your early career that, uh, you would offer somebody today?
[00:43:08] **Speaker 2:** I, I think the most important thing that, that can be said is to find someone to talk to.
[00:43:18] Don't try and cover it all up. Don't think that you've got it all under control. Um, and I'm, I, I know that when you're standing up in front of your faculty, you've gotta emanate that confidence, you know? But you also need to find time where you're not that confident and you're, you know, you don't do that to the masses.
[00:43:35] But you gotta find somebody where you can say, "I don't get this," or, you know, it's, it's, um, we are as human as the next guy. And, and really when I got into administration, I thought I had the answers, and over the 19 years, I, I learned every year a little bit more of what I ... I, I started to know what I didn't know, and that's, that's crucial
[00:44:04] **Speaker:** Yeah, 100% agree. Mentor, coach, somebody that, that you can, uh, lean on, go to, that, uh, is there ready. Yeah, and I was lucky to have a great one when I was, when I was in school administration. So, well, Chris, thank you again. One more plug for your book, The Leader Within. It's coming out in April of this next
[00:44:26] **Speaker 2:** year.
[00:44:27] Um, you can actually- And, uh, where would they find it? The Leader Within, Christopher Grode. It's, you can Google it on, on Amazon. Um, it's a Bloomsbury book. I, I will send you the link so that you can put the pre-sales in the, uh, in the ca- in the nu- in the, um, show notes. Thank you. That's the term.
[00:44:45] **Speaker:** Show notes.
[00:44:46] You bet. Yep, will do. Cool. We'll make sure I get that. Chris, thanks for the conversation. Thanks for your, um, you know, your career and in education and, uh, everything you did for other, whether it's leaders or communities at, and, and as a whole. So appreciate you and,
[00:45:04] **Speaker 2:** and your, uh, your, uh, work as
[00:45:07] **Speaker:** an educator.
[00:45:07] Thank you. I will have to say that your work with Linked Leaders and with this podcast, getting
[00:45:09] **Speaker 2:** the words out for the, um, I have a heart for the administrators of school districts. It's not an easy job. And, uh, I, I, I, the principal is a particularly hard job, um, for a lot of reasons, but, uh-
[00:45:25] **Speaker:** Yeah Without a doubt.
[00:45:29] Yep, absolutely. All right, Chris, thanks again. And, uh, for our listeners, thanks again for tuning in to- All right ... another episode of the Transformative- Thank you ... Principal podcast. Hope to see you again. Take care, Chris. Thank you
