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Mike Caldwell: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast.
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This is Mike Caldwell, your host, and joining me from Iowa is Mike Hugulet.
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Mike, welcome.
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Mike Huguelet: Thanks.
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Thanks for having me.
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Appreciate being here.
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Mike Caldwell: Mike, where in Iowa are you located exactly?
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Mike Huguelet: I live in the, in central Iowa in the Des Moines area.
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Mike Caldwell: Des Moines?
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All right.
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Yes.
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And, uh, not homegrown Iowan or, or-
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Mike Huguelet: Nope.
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I'm a, a transplant, so I, uh- Mm-hmm … a little bit of a nomad.
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I, uh, grew up in South Florida.
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Uh, but home is, uh, for me it's in Chicago, so I spent most of my life in Chicago and finished my K12 education, um, in the Chicagoland area.
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Um, and then, uh, spent most of my career, um, in, in the city of Chicago.
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Mike Caldwell: Gotcha.
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And where… Did you go to University of Iowa
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Mike Huguelet: for, uh- I did, yes.
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That's, that's, uh, where I met my, my better half, and that's what brought me back to the, to the Hawkeye State, um, about, uh, about 11 years ago.
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So, uh, so it's home now.
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Mike Caldwell: Well, fun fact, uh, Herky the Hawk, so that's the mascot for Iowa?
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Mike Huguelet: Yes.
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Is that
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Mike Caldwell: right?
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Mike Huguelet: It is,
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Mike Caldwell: yeah.
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And, uh, what's, what's your experience as Herky the Hawk?
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Tell me more about that.
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Mike Huguelet: Uh, so for, uh, two and a half years I, I, uh, was one of six mascots, uh, as, performed as Herky.
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So we, uh, covered all the, all the sports, uh, for men and women, um, you know, rowing.
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People always think of the, the big revenue TV sports like football and basketball, but, um, but we did gymnastics, uh, field hockey, rowing, you name it.
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Um, and then there's a, uh- Mm … being a, a, uh, the sort of flagship state institution in a, in a state like Iowa without professional sports, um, the, the colleges are a big deal.
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So we, we were… The athletic director would send us all around the state to, um, you know, public relations events.
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So, um, so I was able to see the state in a different way, um, even though the state didn't always see me, um, behind a, a beak.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
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Well, t- what, what was the most memorable experience as Herky the Hawk?
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I'm curious.
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Mike Huguelet: Um, I would say, I mean, just the, the overall experience of, um, being in front of, you know, our stadium was at that time 73,000 people, um, is, is a big rush.
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Um, you know, you, you can kinda do whatever you want, um, but people don't get to see you, which is kinda fun.
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The anonymity of, of it is, is fun.
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And just being a part of, um, making people, um, you know, giving people small moments of joy, um, there's a, a lot that, that, that, that goes with that, hospital visits and all that kinda stuff.
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But I would say the, sort of the thing I, I miss most is that, that big, um, atmosphere, uh, event type thing.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
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Right on.
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Uh, well, I'm a big, uh, former high school wrestl- wrestling coach, and so Iowa to me, I, I always think of their- … their wrestling program with Dan Gable back in the day, and they're, they're not as the powerhouse that they used to be.
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They're still pretty strong of course, but, uh, I've, I've, I've never been to one, but I'd love to go to an Iowa wrestling match someday.
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Mike Huguelet: Awesome.
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Yeah.
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It's alm- almost 15,000 people there.
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So it's, uh, it's, it's not normal in, in the rest of the country, but, uh, but yeah, they, they sell out an arena of 15,000 people for wrestling, which is pr- pretty high energy.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
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Well, Mike, we've had all kinds of guests on here from, you know, just- You know, principals, you know, superintendents, uh, you know, book authors, consultants, a little bit of everything.
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Um, I don't know the last time we had an executive director of a, of an association, um, specifically a p- public charter school association, so you may be the first.
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I don't know.
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Um, who knows?
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But, uh, welcome.
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Hopefully not the last one.
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Yeah.
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Well, I'm, I appreciate you, you taking my invite and joining me for this, for this, uh, episode, and looking forward to kinda diving into your work and what you're doing.
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Um, so you've been with the Iowa- Co- is it Coalition of Charter Schools?
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Is that the right- Yeah … terminology?
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And, um, for the last three years.
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Have you always been a charter school guy, or, or what's, what… Give a little bit of, of your background.
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Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
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I started as a, a middle school history teacher in, in, um, suburban Minneapolis, uh, actually in a, um, private school.
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Um, it's where I started my career while my wife was doing her master's degrees there.
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And, um, so I've done the private school thing and then, um, moved, uh, back home to Chicago and, and, um, you know, launched a public
charter school in, on the south side of the city, um, that is, was the largest high school network, um, at the time in the country.
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Um, I think it still is.
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It's called Noble Schools.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, Noble Street at the time that I founded, um, my campus.
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Uh, so, um, spent a, a dozen years there, mo- then moved to, to Iowa and worked in Des Moines Public Schools.
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I ran the school counseling program, so managed 102 counselors across, I think about 60 schools, um, for three and a half years.
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So I've done the public, um, school, public charter, and, um, private school, um, you know, settings.
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Um, so, you know, different experiences in all of those different settings.
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Um, uh, and, um, yeah, so the, now this is a, a, a sort of a unique, uh, organization.
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I, I launched the Iowa Coalition in 2023, July of '23.
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Um, so it didn't exist, um, at all.
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Uh, it's kind of a unicorn in, in many ways.
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Um, our public charter law was, was written and passed in 2021.
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Um, so it's a very new, um, market, right?
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So most of my colleagues around the country, um, they have existing markets and they, they, they really do the legislative advocacy and then professional development are their two main things.
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Um, and I do do that as well.
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Um, but I'm, I'm truly building the market on a day-to-day basis.
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So there were, um, you know, three district-run public charter schools- Mm-hmm … um, when I s- uh, and then one independent one when I started.
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So there were four small schools in small towns and, um, we've launched three school or six schools over the last, um, you know, three years with eight more approved.
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Um, so the, the enrollment, student enrollment has grown by 400%, um, since we started and, um, you know, I, what I usually tell people is like a, a car wash association works on free market principles, right?
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Uh, people get together, they put their money to, to open a car wash, and then they join the association.
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We're working in the opposite where I'd sp- I may spend two years to get a school off the ground, um, but I have to create my own membership, whereas My counterparts in, in Idaho where you're at, or Arizona, they have, you know, 100 plus charter schools.
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They just sort of sustain the market as it is and, and, uh…
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So that's a really unique thing about Iowa at the moment.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah, it really is.
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What, um, what inspired the development of the Iowa Coalition?
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Is it just something you wanted to do, or did somebody… Uh, w- yeah, what, what was the impetus of getting this going?
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Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
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Um, well, if you're old like me, you've been in the game for a long time, you're, you're…
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The, the people you've been, uh, you know, associated with or people you've taught, um, you know, grow in number significantly and, uh, so sometimes it comes full circle.
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So, um, my, uh, my board chair, um, you know, is a nonprofit organization now at Coalition.
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Um, he, he was the advocate that passed the charter law, and then he raised enough money, um, to start an association.
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We had… He raised six months of, of seed capital, um, and then called the state next door, Illinois, just to ask the, uh, executive director of the
Illinois Network of Charter Schools, um, "Hey, do you know anybody, uh, that could run our association? We're right next door." Um, his name's Andrew.
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Andrew did not.
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He said, "I, I've never been to Iowa.
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I don't know anybody there, but let me… Hold on, let me ask somebody who might." And he asked his, um, his chief of staff.
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Um, her name's Ariel Johnson.
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She was one of my students in 2004.
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Um,
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and, uh, she, you know, she went on to be very successful, became an attorney, and was chief of staff and w- in- in-house counsel for, for the Illinois Network of Charter Schools.
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And she told him, she's like, "I, I know only one person in the whole state of Iowa, and he's a charter guy." So, um- So again, full circle,
that's how I got connected and, uh, and I, I was looking for, uh, an opportunity to put, um- To really make a difference, uh, in the state.
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Uh, Iowa has traditionally had one of the most, um, effective and successful public school systems in the, in the country.
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Um, and it's just eroded over time in the last 10, 10 years as the, the demographics have changed and, um, you know, much higher, um, free and reduced lunch numbers in, in the, the cities across the state.
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Um, the academic achievement has, has s- has suffered and gone down.
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Um, so I saw that personally when I was working in Des Moines and, um, just believe there's a way to, to address it in a, in, in a really head-on way, um, with public charter schools, so.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
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Well, congrats.
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That's a huge honor, a huge endeavor, and, uh, definitely have an opportunity to make some significant impact in your own st- in your own state, so that's great.
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Um, you know, every state has unique laws as it relates to, well, anything education, but specifically to, to charters.
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It's all over the map.
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Um, can you provide a kind of a overview of what Iowa's doing in the charter school space in terms of any new or existing laws that have been passed since it's all fairly fresh?
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Mike Huguelet: Sure.
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Yeah.
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Um, we have the benefit of, you know, being one of the new kids on the block.
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I think we were the 45th or 46th state that was, um, you know, enabled, empowered to, to run public charters.
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So, um, I don't pretend I'm smarter than anybody else.
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I asked all my colleagues from around the country when I got th- got here, like what, um, what, what should we attack first as we change the, the, the laws and improve the conditions for schools?
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Um, so the one thing I will say is we started at a, um-- We didn't start at a point of great weakness.
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There weren't poison pills, many poison pills in our law.
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We don't have caps.
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Um, we don't have to… We, we can authorize, um, through the State Board of Education, so the local districts don't have any, um, say or impact in our authorization.
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Um, so there, there really was, was not a lot of, um, you know, bad elements of the, of the law that we had to change.
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Um, but one… The, the, the worst part of it is we're left, w-we're left behind in many of the funding sources, um, that are allocated to public schools.
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Um, when I started in '23, um, you know, we were getting about half of that, um, funding from, uh, that local public schools get Um, so we've been able to come back with two
different pieces of legislation, one in '24 and one, uh, that actually was signed yesterday by the governor, um, that have, uh, increased that per pupil funding significantly.
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Um, so there's really only one major pot, um, that the state allocates that we don't get.
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Um, and I'll, I'll come for that in a different, uh, year, but there was no way we were gonna get that passed, um, this year, so we got everything that we could.
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Um, so everybody's budgets will go up by about ten percent next year, which is amazing for them.
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Um, and, um, and then we have to get some facility support.
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That's really the, the main thing that slows us down.
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We don't have access to local property taxes.
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Um, we can't, um, run bond referendums here.
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Um, so this law we passed yesterday, um, uh, established a, a revolving loan fund here in the state.
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Um, it has not received an appropriation yet, so there's no money in the, in the account yet.
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But, um, many states do that in subsequent years.
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You know, one, one year you get it set up and, and running, and then you keep chasing the, the money from the legislature after that.
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So that's the approach we've taken, is just to get it in, in law, and then, uh, I'll spend as much capital and time as I can to, uh, to get the money to put in there.
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'Cause that's, that's really the thing-- only thing that's slowing us down right now is, um, just getting the seed capital for renovations and construction
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah, right on.
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That, that is a big hurdle.
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Um, and I'm sure you've talked to folks in Idaho that,
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Mike Huguelet: uh-
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Mike Caldwell: Yep … have done some amazing things to put, put that together, um, for, for charters here in our, in my state.
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So that's, that's cool.
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Congratulations on getting, getting that passed.
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That, uh, that is a significant hurdle to overcome, for sure.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Um, well give me the, g- give me a feel of the scope of how many, how many charters are we talking about in the state of I- Iowa currently, and, and what's in maybe year, year zero or even- Yeah
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minus one, like kind of where you're at in the development of new schools.
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Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
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So we're currently at 10, um, public charter schools, uh, uh, open and, and operating.
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Um, we have eight approved to launch in the next 15 months.
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Um, and those are all s- um, groups that have worked with the Iowa Coalition to, to, you know, apply and be approved.
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Um, so I'm working with them now on finding their, their facilities and hiring, um, you know, founding staff.
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Uh, many of the out-of-state CMOs, they don't have any roots here yet, um, or boots on the ground, so when it comes to just thinking about
s- um, setting up a local school board, um, or f- hiring a founding principal, they, they literally don't have any, um, any connections.
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Um, so I do a lot of that legwork for them.
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So, um, but in any case, um, we- the state received a state entity CSP grant, um, in May of '25, so that will help facilitate the launch or expansion of 35 new schools.
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Um, so- Wow … it's gonna be exponential, um, now that we've, you know, improved the law, we have the CSP seed capital for, for, um, for startup costs.
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Um, it really will grow very quickly.
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So I would anticipate… We've, we've been on average getting, um, about seven schools approved the first three years that I, I, I've, um, been at this.
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Um, so I would anticipate that we have, um, you know, at least that much if not, you know, 50% more each year from this point forward, just because, um, we didn't…
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W- the conditions were not as good and the, the, the, um, that's changed.
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So I, I literally have gotten calls already- Mm-hmm … um, in the last two weeks since, um, you know, this, uh, bill's been moving forward, um, from groups that I, I didn't even know who they were, but they're interested in coming to Iowa now.
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Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
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Wow.
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Well that's, that's exciting.
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That's a lot of, lot of growth in a sounds like a fair- fairly short amount of time.
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So you got your work cut out for you, for sure.
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Um, that's, that's, that's great to hear.
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Now you, your experience is both in a traditional public school, private school, charter s- I mean, obviously from your role, you're a charter advocate.
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Um, tell me why.
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What, what, what kind of drives your kind of, uh, you know, work in, in, in advocacy for the charter space in Iowa?
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What do you see as, as, as important in, in, in the work that you're doing, um, in specifically in your state?
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Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
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Uh, what I always tell people is I'm a advocate for effective schools And that can come in any stripes, in any lane, right?
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Um, so, so I'm by no means, um, in any way against, uh, traditional public districts, uh, definitely not ag- against private schools.
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We actually have U- universal ESA here in Iowa.
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Um, and the bill we passed actually, um, opened up a second enrollment period.
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We… It was like a, a major omnibus bill for K-12 education with homeschool priorities, private school, and charter school.
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Um, but, um, as it relates to your question, um, one of the things that, um, I see as a benefit to the, the public charter sector is that, um, the, the red tape to get things done is generally a lot lower, a lot less.
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Um, you know, an example I, you know, give is, um, the amount of hoops I had to jump through when I was in Des Moines Public Schools to, to just
get a, a, a basic decision approved, um, for hiring and for, for whatever I wanted to do with my team as the director of the counseling program.
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It just… Everything was glacial, right?
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Um, and then by… Oftentimes by the time you, you got the approval, you might have missed the window to actually get something, a new initiative moving, right?
00:17:20.192 --> 00:17:31.392
Um, and because the sense of urgency is there for charters, if you don't succeed, if you're not getting… meeting student outcomes in your performance metrics, the state closes you, right?
00:17:31.392 --> 00:17:35.832
I, I fundamentally believe that's just the way it should be for, for everybody.
00:17:35.922 --> 00:17:42.922
Um, I know that's not, that's not how it works for private schools and, and traditional publics, but, um, you know, per se.
00:17:43.012 --> 00:17:50.902
Um, but I, I do believe that everyone should have the same, um, type of performance, uh, metrics, and that is…
00:17:50.952 --> 00:17:52.872
that should be student-driven, right?
00:17:52.872 --> 00:17:58.632
So, um, I, I… What I tell people is I don't believe charters are, quote-unquote, the answer.
00:17:58.672 --> 00:18:10.712
I just believe they're a major part, um, and serve as a catalyst really, um, to, to getting innovation going and, and… I, I do believe the rising tides b- rises all boats.
00:18:11.042 --> 00:18:22.412
Um, I'm not naive that, um, you know, there's challenges that are, that, that come with setting up new schools and, and, um, that often leads to, to traditional public schools closing.
00:18:22.852 --> 00:18:41.602
Um, and, uh, so it, it's not a, a, you know, a panacea by any means, but, um, but I do-- I've seen it work, um, in some of the most difficult conditions,
uh, in the country, um, in, in inner city Chicago, and if, if it can work there, I believe it can work in rural Idaho or rural Iowa, you know?
00:18:42.292 --> 00:18:42.562
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:18:43.840 --> 00:19:01.330
Yeah, it's, you know, I th- in my experience with, you know, in a couple years working with charters here in Idaho, um, you know, I, I s- definitely see
there's, there's, you know, some advantages that in, when you're starting fresh, starting new, there, you can move and kind of create the vision and it's a…
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:21.880
You can move faster in, in a lot of ways and, and do some innovative things, um, without a lot of the friction that you end up with, you know, starting with s- you
know, s- uh, trying to, trying to move, you know, a, a, a- entity that's, you know, been established for, you know, hundreds of years or whatever the case may be.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:28.340
Um, so I see the advantages of, of kind of starting new and starting fresh, obviously.
00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:33.600
Um, what do you see as, as maybe the disadvantages that charters face?
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:41.340
Obviously, you know, the, you mentioned the facilities and, and that the difference in kind of a a- acquisition of funds for facilities.
00:19:41.340 --> 00:19:50.720
What do you see as, as maybe some other disadvantages and, and w- maybe also touch on what do you see as, as some advantages of kind of in the charter space?
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:51.580
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:56.080
Um, well, I'll go with the disadvantages first in, in, uh, no particular order.
00:19:56.080 --> 00:19:59.280
I mean, funding is, is always one of the main ones, right?
00:19:59.330 --> 00:20:04.220
Um, uh, uh, there's very few states that are at, um, full per pupil parity.
00:20:04.610 --> 00:20:10.860
Um, very few ha- get local property taxes, you know, so that's obviously one major, um, challenge.
00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:12.620
Facilities is the next one.
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:24.930
Um, you know, uh, where I live, they, they just passed a $265 million bond referendum, which that wouldn't be very big in a city like Chicago or LA, but in the state of Iowa, that's a massive amount of money, right?
00:20:25.270 --> 00:20:31.960
Um, so, um, but they'll put that all into capital improvements for facilities, so that's great.
00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:33.310
I'm not against that, for the record.
00:20:33.330 --> 00:20:39.840
Like, that's, um, a necessary thing for, for that school system and, um, I have no, um, nothing against that.
00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:41.160
It's just we, we can't do that.
00:20:41.810 --> 00:20:43.920
Um, we don't have the ability to do that type of thing, right?
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.480
So, um, and then I think, um, public perception, right?
00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:50.470
Just the ignorance of what a public charter school is.
00:20:50.870 --> 00:21:01.480
Uh, I, I go to the state legislature to advocate on, on our school's behalf, and everybody assumes, even the people on the education committee, that the word charter means private.
00:21:01.830 --> 00:21:02.180
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:02.970
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:06.660
That it's synonymous with private, 'cause they just don't know what charter means, right?
00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:11.430
Um, so I have to re-educate everybody in, uh, literally, like almost everybody in the state.
00:21:11.870 --> 00:21:14.230
The word charter is synonymous with contract.
00:21:14.780 --> 00:21:17.610
It's not, has nothing to do with ESAs, right?
00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:20.980
Has nothing to do with, um, private schools or religious schools for that matter.
00:21:21.290 --> 00:21:27.250
Um, again, nothing against those schools, it's just that's not our identity and that's not the legal framework we operate in, right?
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.990
Um, so I would say those are the major disadvantages.
00:21:30.330 --> 00:21:32.280
Um, oh, one more along with that.
00:21:32.310 --> 00:21:36.200
Um, you know, just public ignorance to what we actually are and what we are not.
00:21:36.590 --> 00:21:42.220
Um, that's an uphill battle in winning the hearts and minds, right?
00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:54.956
So I, I, I literally, um, win over one, um, newspaper and one city council member at a time Um, and, and that is a, like literally a true story for, uh…
00:21:54.966 --> 00:22:05.556
I've been working on one of our, our major newspapers in the state for almost three full years now, and for the first time, um, this education reporter agreed to do an interview with me tomorrow.
00:22:06.056 --> 00:22:10.356
Sh- she has not written a positive story about public charter schools in three years.
00:22:10.876 --> 00:22:27.946
Uh, I've taken her on tours of multiple of them, um, and I've killed multiple stories that she's called me about saying that she thought she was gonna write a negative
story, and then I answered all the- her questions and, um, there was no story that came out 'cause, you know, there, there was no story there to be had, right?
00:22:28.096 --> 00:22:28.486
Yeah.
00:22:28.496 --> 00:22:34.866
Um, but somebody, you know, um, puts misinformation in there about what charters are and what they're not, right?
00:22:34.866 --> 00:22:36.166
So those are the disadvantages.
00:22:36.486 --> 00:22:40.056
Um, again, I think the, the advantages, as I said earlier, less red tape.
00:22:40.426 --> 00:22:50.416
Um, we traditionally have non-elected school boards, so, um, they're just volunteers, like people who are overseeing Make-A-Wish, right?
00:22:50.416 --> 00:23:06.736
So you just look at it from a perspective of what's the best thing for the, for the mission of this school, as opposed to well, this is a
stepping stone for me running for city council or running for then, um, state government or whatever, and many school board members do that.
00:23:07.186 --> 00:23:12.206
Um, and so there's just no political, um, decision-making, right?
00:23:12.246 --> 00:23:15.146
It's just what is best for kids and for this school.
00:23:15.436 --> 00:23:20.266
So that's really one of the, like, most untalked about secret sauces to charters.
00:23:20.816 --> 00:23:21.366
Um-
00:23:21.546 --> 00:23:22.406
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, really good point
00:23:23.046 --> 00:23:23.776
… Mike Huguelet: yeah, really.
00:23:23.776 --> 00:23:26.016
It's, it's totally glossed over by most people.
00:23:26.076 --> 00:23:29.196
Um, but I, I have seen that as a massive advantage.
00:23:29.686 --> 00:23:40.474
Um, then, uh, you know, uh, the-- we are the lane for the irrational person And I mean that in a good way, right?
00:23:40.474 --> 00:23:44.644
So you think about it for just from, like, a, a s- 30,000-foot view.
00:23:45.594 --> 00:23:47.074
Public schools exist.
00:23:48.064 --> 00:23:50.184
Why do we need new public schools?
00:23:50.214 --> 00:23:52.194
That's the question I always get, right?
00:23:52.214 --> 00:24:13.954
So people like me who, who, um, have launched multiple charter schools, um, we look at, at the data and say, "Okay, um, last year 92% of, uh, kids
in Davenport," which is one of our biggest cities on the Mississippi River, "were in a school that was rated below acceptable by the state of Iowa."
00:24:14.644 --> 00:24:16.354
That's just not okay, right?
00:24:16.394 --> 00:24:24.484
You shouldn't be sentenced to a mediocre to, to, um, below average education because you were born in a zip code.
00:24:25.154 --> 00:24:32.364
Just whether that's in the middle of nowhere Iowa or, you know, um, Miami, where I grew up, um, that's just not okay, right?
00:24:32.364 --> 00:24:36.524
So, um, but that's the, the reality, and the data, it says that.
00:24:36.794 --> 00:24:38.004
So guess what?
00:24:38.024 --> 00:24:45.864
We launched a new public charter school there this year in Davenport, and another one is opening i- in three months, um, because it's just not okay, right?
00:24:45.864 --> 00:25:00.974
So you, you, you ha- you, you attract the irrational people that are very passionate about kids and about, um, closing the achievement gap, and, uh, and those kinda crazy people like myself say, "We can do this better, and the kids deserve better."
00:25:01.364 --> 00:25:09.724
And we're gonna put up with all of the, um, opposition that we get from the local district, from potentially city government.
00:25:10.064 --> 00:25:21.454
Um, and, uh, and we're just gonna convince people that we can, we can take care of their kids, and we'll love their kids as much as they do, and, you know, um, do this better, right?
00:25:21.454 --> 00:25:23.904
So, um, so I think that I…
00:25:23.944 --> 00:25:33.394
To me, that's an advantage is you, you re- you really can attract very passionate people who are willing to say, "Hey, let's try something different here," right?
00:25:33.464 --> 00:25:45.124
You can find all sorts of creative, um, type of school models or, um, you know, student supports that, uh, you're not asking the question, "Well, what have we always done?"
00:25:45.944 --> 00:25:53.364
We're looking at the data and saying, "Well, this is the problem. This is the challenge. What, what has worked before, but what could be different?"
00:25:54.064 --> 00:25:54.394
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:25:55.904 --> 00:25:59.934
You know, charter schools have been around, you know, for, for a long, long time now.
00:25:59.934 --> 00:26:20.014
And, you know, I always think of, you know, charter schools were created to kinda create, um, create an alternative o- offer, you know,
or create a space for innovation and, and something new that hopefully will u- ultimately inform and, um, change the bigger system, right?
00:26:20.074 --> 00:26:20.634
Um- Yep
00:26:22.922 --> 00:26:35.302
And I have my own thoughts on that, you know, and but I, I wonder, like, what you see as what are some of those things, you know, and I know Iowa's charter space is fairly new, but you've been around charters a long, l- much longer time.
00:26:35.782 --> 00:26:52.410
What do you see as some of those things that, um, it's time that now are, you know, trickle over to the traditional public space Whether it's law changes or other, I don't know.
00:26:52.460 --> 00:27:06.120
But, um, what do you see as kind of, it's, it's time to s- influence or actually take these lessons learned that, that we've, we've learned from the charter space over to the traditional public school space?
00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:07.110
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.930
Um, I'm gonna s- because, uh, I was new, I'm gonna go back to Chicago and give you some examples.
00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:20.870
Um, I think one thing, um, that, um, you know, gets lost in many conversations is this is all about human beings, right?
00:27:21.190 --> 00:27:23.230
So the humans will go back and forth.
00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:35.140
So there's a, a woman that, that was, um… I worked, um, at a, you know, at one charter school on the South Side, and there was an English teacher on our staff that wanted an opportunity to be a principal, right?
00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:41.250
But that was not coming at our school, and it wasn't coming in our, our network because there just wasn't any openings.
00:27:41.610 --> 00:27:47.620
Um, so she went to the traditional public school that was literally across the street from my, my, uh, where I lived.
00:27:48.010 --> 00:27:50.790
Um, and she did a phenomenal job at that.
00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:53.270
It was a traditional Chicago public school.
00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:59.460
She took all the lessons she learned from our, our high-performing charter network right to that school, right?
00:27:59.530 --> 00:28:10.500
Um, the human beings will go back and forth, whether that's students or staff, um, because they're looking for, um, either a new opportunity, um, or they just, you know, they just want a change, right?
00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.230
So, um, so that, I think that gets lost because it's a little bit harder to quantify.
00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:19.960
Um, but that is really the main thing that I see is, is how it happens.
00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:25.750
Um, you know, there's I think 115 charter schools now or something like that in the city of Chicago.
00:28:26.090 --> 00:28:30.510
Um, but there were 127 public high schools when I was there, right?
00:28:30.530 --> 00:28:36.880
So, um, so th- not all those charters were high school, but those lessons are going back and forth in great numbers.
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:46.530
In a, in a place that big, um, there's just a lot of that ex-ex-exchange of ideas and exchange of, um, of, of people, um, employees moving back and forth.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:29:04.130
Um, and, uh, so an example of, you know, to, to blink the two worlds for me, um, when I was, um, leading the, the counseling program in Des Moines Public Schools, um, you know, we needed… There, there's, the city has changed here.
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:09.630
Um, there's a lot more, um, poverty and violence, and crime comes along with poverty, right?
00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:16.850
Um, so, um, we were looking for trauma-informed care and to, to training for counselors on that.
00:29:17.210 --> 00:29:24.560
Um, well, when I was in Chicago, the, the counseling program there was m- was sort of, uh, let's say ineffective.
00:29:24.580 --> 00:29:26.070
Just be nice and polite, right?
00:29:26.340 --> 00:29:27.450
Um, but
00:29:30.988 --> 00:29:38.338
Des Moines Public Schools hired the team from Chicago Public Schools counseling to come do the trauma-informed care training here, 'cause they've done such a great job there, right?
00:29:38.368 --> 00:29:46.638
That was one of the ways that they could be competitive is they raised the bar with their counseling program to help keep student retention in their schools.
00:29:46.968 --> 00:29:52.538
And then that ripple effect came all the way across the river 300 miles away, right?
00:29:52.618 --> 00:29:56.618
Like, th- that's a real thing happening and I believe that's how it should be.
00:29:56.918 --> 00:30:01.048
Um, we should just help each other on how, how, what's the best way to serve kids.
00:30:01.048 --> 00:30:03.608
If you learn something that could help me, then great, let's share it.
00:30:04.108 --> 00:30:04.368
So-
00:30:04.398 --> 00:30:04.628
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:30:05.218 --> 00:30:05.428
Yeah … hope
00:30:05.428 --> 00:30:06.198
Mike Huguelet: that makes sense.
00:30:06.198 --> 00:30:08.468
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, I'll pose a question.
00:30:08.518 --> 00:30:12.288
Um, you know, when I … Again, my experience in ch- charter schools.
00:30:12.288 --> 00:30:19.508
Charter schools have the, have the, um, I guess flexibility w- of capped enrollment, right?
00:30:19.548 --> 00:30:22.428
They can set their enrollment to X, X amount.
00:30:22.908 --> 00:30:22.928
Yeah.
00:30:22.958 --> 00:30:25.538
And, you know, if they have … And they have a
00:30:25.608 --> 00:30:27.078
They, then they get a waiting list, right?
00:30:27.078 --> 00:30:28.138
Of- Yeah … whatever.
00:30:28.688 --> 00:30:36.878
Um, and that's a key difference that oftentimes I think is also o- o- overlooked between charters and traditional public schools.
00:30:36.888 --> 00:30:45.068
Traditional public schools don't have- Right … that flexibility or the, the authority to, to cap enrollment.
00:30:45.128 --> 00:30:46.668
They, they take whoever they get.
00:30:46.728 --> 00:30:52.738
Now, in both cases they're, they're funded similarly on a per student basis, you know.
00:30:52.738 --> 00:30:55.868
So enrollment grows, their funding grows and they adapt.
00:30:56.338 --> 00:31:14.066
Um- I see that as an advantage of, of, of charter schools to a certain extent because, you know, they build a, a certain building and they're
built for a certain size, and they can, they can kinda hold, hold those class sizes kind of to a certain threshold based on that, um, those caps.
00:31:14.436 --> 00:31:17.536
So that is an advantage, I believe.
00:31:17.566 --> 00:31:18.806
Do you see that as an advantage?
00:31:18.816 --> 00:31:26.596
And if it is, is there some way to translate that over to a traditional setting?
00:31:27.526 --> 00:31:27.956
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:31:28.036 --> 00:31:31.056
I mean, I would, I would say it is a, an advantage.
00:31:31.056 --> 00:31:32.606
I, I wouldn't run, run from that.
00:31:32.606 --> 00:31:41.016
I think that, um, it, it provides some stability in the sense that you don't have to, you know, you don't have to m- adjust your hiring model.
00:31:41.036 --> 00:31:45.986
If you, you know, you have a waiting list every year, you're gonna hit your enrollment target and you're, you're set, right?
00:31:46.006 --> 00:31:47.246
I mean, that's the advantage.
00:31:47.676 --> 00:32:04.146
Um, what I would say though, and I… This is, like, the biggest soapbox I've gotten on in my whole career is that, um, there is nothing stopping traditional public schools from organizing themselves differently, right?
00:32:04.206 --> 00:32:16.586
Um, there is very little creativity it, that I've seen really anywhere, and I've lived in four different states and went to public schools in, um, in two of those, um, for my, my edu- my own education.
00:32:16.926 --> 00:32:18.076
Um, and I'll give you an example.
00:32:18.076 --> 00:32:27.256
So the town I live in, um, very effective school district, but, um, you know, the, it's very common setup to, to the rest of the country, right?
00:32:27.256 --> 00:32:33.626
There's five elementary schools, and they make sure that, that each one's roughly 600 students each.
00:32:33.966 --> 00:32:48.186
So K through 5, we're gonna make sure that these kids have a very shelter, like, supportive environment and, um, they all have a, a, you know, a space where all the teachers and administrators know their names, right?
00:32:48.726 --> 00:32:54.426
Well, then we feed all those kids into one middle school, and then we feed all those kids into one high school.
00:32:54.426 --> 00:33:01.316
A- a- and 2,200 kids in, in, in, in the high school, and the high school's only 10 through 12 here in my town, right?
00:33:01.316 --> 00:33:03.886
So 2,200 kids in that, in that, that space.
00:33:04.316 --> 00:33:20.906
Um, and, and oftentimes, this is again, I'm editorializing here, Mike, um, the excuse given is that, "Well, we need to offer them the, the AP classes and
the s- the extracurricular activities, you know, so we have to put them all in one place 'cause it's the only way to organize and offer them those things."
00:33:21.306 --> 00:33:25.076
And I just fundamentally think that that's not actually true, right?
00:33:25.436 --> 00:33:43.872
If I was running it and starting from scratch, and this is again the advantage of the charter system, I would have five K-12 schools And then
if you, if you wanna offer an AP class that you don't have the, um, the actual enrollment to do, you can offer it all at one high school, right?
00:33:43.892 --> 00:33:58.312
And do the transportation between the, the, the five high schools to the one, one, one could be, do, do all the, you know, advanced math,
one does all the advanced science, one does all the advanced English and, and, um, language arts, um, one does the social studies, right?
00:33:58.312 --> 00:34:00.232
You just, you could set it up differently.
00:34:00.562 --> 00:34:02.642
Um, it just doesn't have to be that way.
00:34:02.912 --> 00:34:06.962
And, and that's where the, the flexibility in, in charters comes in.
00:34:07.242 --> 00:34:14.612
Um, so, you know, the school that we hosted the, the governor's bill signing at yesterday is, um, it's a high school.
00:34:15.302 --> 00:34:16.162
It's called Des Moines Prep.
00:34:16.162 --> 00:34:19.042
It will, at full capacity, be 600 kids in the high school.
00:34:19.852 --> 00:34:25.732
Well, there's a lot of students that are more comfortable with a small setting like that, right?
00:34:25.782 --> 00:34:26.842
And that's what they want.
00:34:26.962 --> 00:34:28.192
But they don't have that.
00:34:29.082 --> 00:34:31.892
The smallest Des Moines high school is 1,000 kids.
00:34:31.892 --> 00:34:37.242
The, the, the biggest one is roughly 2,500 every- and everything in between.
00:34:37.522 --> 00:34:43.222
And, um, but they, they have not chosen to reorganize in any way, right?
00:34:43.362 --> 00:34:47.112
Um, and, and I do believe that you, you can reorganize.
00:34:47.362 --> 00:34:50.792
If you have… You know, they have 60 buildings, right?
00:34:51.102 --> 00:34:58.242
That's a lot of, lot of real estate to, uh, to, to rearrange, and you can… And they are realigning it, to be honest.
00:34:58.502 --> 00:35:03.392
They're realigning it now to compete with, with some of the private schools and, and the charters.
00:35:03.772 --> 00:35:08.212
Um, but they're still realigning it in a way that's very traditional.
00:35:08.392 --> 00:35:17.382
It's just- Mm … fe- setting up feeder patterns, um, and closing some schools that are older and, um, are just under- underutilized, under-enrolled.
00:35:17.752 --> 00:35:30.852
Um, but whether I'm right or not about that, Mike, that's my soapbox that I get on 'cause I, I just think fundamentally there's a way to, um, to look at the same amount of resources that you have and reorganize that in a different way.
00:35:31.522 --> 00:35:31.822
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:35:32.262 --> 00:35:37.252
No, I can, I can totally see that, and I've, um, uh, I agree with you.
00:35:37.282 --> 00:35:39.772
It's, it's hard to do.
00:35:39.782 --> 00:35:40.602
It takes vision.
00:35:40.752 --> 00:35:54.022
Um, and it get… You know, it's, it takes a leader to kinda get a lot of people moving in, in, in the same direction to, to, to make that change happen, but it's certainly possible.
00:35:54.052 --> 00:36:05.062
It's a lot easier if you're starting from zero and, and, and designing it from, from nothing as opposed to re- re-engineering what you have, but it is absolutely possible.
00:36:05.062 --> 00:36:05.842
I agree with you.
00:36:05.852 --> 00:36:06.592
Um- Yeah.
00:36:06.782 --> 00:36:08.242
Mike Huguelet: Can I give you one more example of that?
00:36:08.472 --> 00:36:08.702
Mike Caldwell: You bet.
00:36:08.702 --> 00:36:24.094
Mike Huguelet: Um, so, um- again in the charter in, in Noble in Chicago, um, when, when the principals wanted to add a district, like a district or network level position, um, and I did this while I was there.
00:36:24.114 --> 00:36:31.394
I, I, um, proposed two new, um, positions for the college, um, planning team at, in the network.
00:36:31.654 --> 00:36:49.574
Um, you had to come present like a, a, a huge presentation with all sorts of data and there was about, I think, like 18 people that had to approve all in one room, and
they all had to say, "This is gonna be worth the money that we are taking out of the classroom." 'Cause if we add this position, it's probably never going away, right?
00:36:49.984 --> 00:37:02.574
Um, and that's what happens in so many districts is that you add a position here, then you, that person needs a manager, and that
person needs a secretary, and all of a sudden you have all these positions and all that money is coming out of the classroom, right?
00:37:02.574 --> 00:37:04.614
'Cause those are people that work at the central office.
00:37:04.984 --> 00:37:16.314
So, um, when I was in Des Moines Public Schools, there were 16 curriculum directors, one for health, one for PE, one for art, one for elementary math, one for secondary math, right?
00:37:16.734 --> 00:37:30.994
And they were all great teachers that got promoted to become the curriculum director and, um, and they, their job was to write, essentially write lesson plans for, for the, the, the teachers in every subject in every level, right?
00:37:31.344 --> 00:37:37.630
Um, and, um But they, there was this huge disconnect from the classroom, right?
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:40.520
And those positions don't exist anymore.
00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:54.940
They, as, as enrollment's gone down, they had to find ways of like, "Hey, we need to put this money back into the classroom." And, um, so the…
So that's my point is like they're just, there, there's always a way to reorganize, and especially the easiest one is actually with your staffing.
00:37:54.950 --> 00:37:54.970
Yeah.
00:37:55.310 --> 00:38:00.330
'Cause big expensive buildings, it's hard to, to, harder to shuffle that deck.
00:38:00.700 --> 00:38:10.120
Um, but that, that, those real important questions, and I see that most, um, most districts just really struggle with that essential question.
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:16.490
And there's a lot of like, "Hey, this person's been here. They're nice." So they, you know, um- Yeah, sure.
00:38:16.490 --> 00:38:19.740
In my daughter's district, the middle school principal, he was very ineffective.
00:38:20.130 --> 00:38:24.850
Um, and they, um, moved him and created a new position.
00:38:25.030 --> 00:38:27.310
He now manages the principals in the district.
00:38:27.810 --> 00:38:30.530
But he was not a good principal when she was in school there, right?
00:38:30.600 --> 00:38:36.310
Um, but he's a nice guy, so the superintendent, you know, created a position for him, and here we go.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:42.420
Now we have another, you know, position that has no dollars affecting the classroom in any tangible way.
00:38:42.710 --> 00:38:46.590
Um, and they can get away with it 'cause they're not having enrollment problems, right?
00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:53.940
When you h- when you, when your enrollment, um, is hit, then all of a sudden, um, these positions really come into question of like, wait a second.
00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:59.660
Um, you know, we, we should be asking every year what's the best way to serve our kids?
00:38:59.660 --> 00:39:05.960
And, and charters are h- are forced to do that in a, in a, a way that, you know, whether it's fair or not is, is another story.
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:07.410
But it, they are asked to do that.
00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:08.010
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:39:08.150 --> 00:39:08.450
Yeah.
00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:17.610
Yeah, I think both are, are great examples kind of rethinking kind of facility use and, and structure as well as human resources and how you're using them.
00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:30.410
And I, I like that, uh A litmus test of every position you add is more money taken out of the classroom, and so make being really conscientious about, um, you know, where you're putting your resources makes sense.
00:39:31.080 --> 00:39:43.340
Um, we're kind of coming to an end here, but I, I'm curious, you know, the schools that you have that, that are opened in, in Iowa, any, any one school that jumps out that you wanna talk about?
00:39:43.350 --> 00:39:48.860
Kind of anything that's really interesting or innovative or- Sure … or anything like that that you'd like to share?
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:50.260
Mike Huguelet: Yeah, I will.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.240
Um, so there's a, a, a trades, uh, school called Great Oaks High School.
00:39:55.740 --> 00:39:57.650
Um, one campus in Des Moines.
00:39:57.730 --> 00:40:02.930
They're opening a second campus this year in a town called Davenport, and their third campus is already approved.
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:10.970
Um, credit recovery school, so their, their, um, target, uh, student is an opportunity youth who's left a, uh, dropped out.
00:40:11.020 --> 00:40:12.300
They've left the school system, right?
00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:15.280
Um, so they just have a really interesting model.
00:40:15.330 --> 00:40:19.790
Um, they're supported by a parent organization called Oakmont Education in Ohio.
00:40:20.290 --> 00:40:23.910
They run 20-plus of these credit recovery schools all across Ohio.
00:40:23.910 --> 00:40:29.350
And essentially their, their model is very simple, but, um, but effective, right?
00:40:29.350 --> 00:40:36.190
So s- the- these are students who weren't really into school in their fir- for whatever reason, their first run at it.
00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:39.890
Um, so you, you can't really run that same playbook back.
00:40:39.990 --> 00:40:41.240
You gotta do it differently.
00:40:41.260 --> 00:40:47.900
So they, they… To make a long story short, um, the students have, um, one week where they're working on their diploma.
00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:55.390
It's all core classes, math, science, English, reading, um, all those things, um, to get the same diploma anybody else gets in the state of Iowa.
00:40:55.600 --> 00:40:57.870
And then the second week is workforce.
00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:01.560
So the students are in either manufacturing, construction, or healthcare.
00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:13.230
Um, and, um, for most of those students, they have a grant that, um, pays them a- as an apprentice in, uh, in those areas, and they…
00:41:13.300 --> 00:41:23.796
So the construction kids are on, on, on the work site do- building a house with Habitat for Humanity They get to do all of the trades except for plumbing, electrical, and c- uh, concrete.
00:41:23.826 --> 00:41:25.746
Those are things you don't wanna be- have messed up.
00:41:26.196 --> 00:41:28.916
Um, so they get to watch the, the contractors do that.
00:41:28.926 --> 00:41:38.816
So they, um… But, um, you know, when they get their diploma, they've-- they have a ton of, of job, like on-the-job training and experience.
00:41:39.166 --> 00:41:51.206
Um, and then with this grant, they, they actually, um, are on the job for a few months, so their, the employer, um, gets to kick the tires on the student and see what are, are they-- what's their work ethic?
00:41:51.526 --> 00:41:53.396
Um, what's their skill level, right?
00:41:53.736 --> 00:42:00.466
Um, and the hope is, is that they walk right into a job in that, with that, um, contractor or with that hospital or manufacturer.
00:42:00.796 --> 00:42:11.546
Um, that doesn't always work out, but, um, their job placement rates are, are, um, you know, ninety-plus percent in Ohio for all the kids that are in this particular, um, workforce programming.
00:42:11.926 --> 00:42:14.036
Um, so I think it's just innovative.
00:42:14.086 --> 00:42:17.046
Um, it, it really, um, goes a long ways.
00:42:17.066 --> 00:42:25.356
It fills a niche, um, that the traditional public school system can work with, so it's not intended to be a competitor.
00:42:25.356 --> 00:42:30.406
But counselors, when a kid comes and says, "Hey, I'm having a, having a baby, I need to leave," right?
00:42:30.406 --> 00:42:37.826
"I need a, uh, a more flexible schedule than this high-- traditional high school can allow," they can say, "Well, hey, go to, go to Great Oaks," right?
00:42:37.826 --> 00:42:38.736
"Don't drop out.
00:42:39.096 --> 00:42:40.686
Um, they have flexible scheduling.
00:42:40.696 --> 00:42:42.096
You wanna be a nurse anyways.
00:42:42.096 --> 00:42:51.786
They have a healthcare program." Um, so I just think that that's the- Love that … that's the spirit of what American school system should be K-12.
00:42:52.106 --> 00:42:55.956
Um, but it is happening here in, uh, in, in that space.
00:42:56.246 --> 00:43:02.236
Um, I, I will say that the relationship with the traditional public schools is still not the-- where it should be.
00:43:02.626 --> 00:43:05.426
Um, but I do believe we'll get there.
00:43:05.436 --> 00:43:06.156
I'm not naive.
00:43:06.156 --> 00:43:15.060
I think as they see, like this school doesn't want your kids that are in AP They can't, they can't deny those kids 'cause it's a public s- charter school.
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:30.150
So if you feed us the students that are leaving, um, then we can fill those spots, and they're n- not there for the kid who just, you
know, um, got in a fight with, with, uh, their boyfriend and wants to, you know, get out, get it out of there for a minute, right?
00:43:30.460 --> 00:43:33.220
Um, th- there shouldn't be friendly fire there.
00:43:33.230 --> 00:43:37.600
But, um, it's there to serve the kids who, who need an alternative setting, so.
00:43:37.730 --> 00:43:37.960
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:38.490
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:39.320
Mike Caldwell: I lo- love that.
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:40.650
Would love to learn more about that.
00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:50.840
Um, yeah, just seems similar to maybe one of the… I'm thinking of one of the Elevate academies here in Idaho that are really focused on a similar population.
00:43:51.130 --> 00:44:00.810
Similar, similar kind of a- approach with CTE or c- you know, um, in, in terms of workforce development and, and things like that, but maybe done in a different way.
00:44:00.810 --> 00:44:10.120
But it sounds like what you're saying is they're kind of in their core one week, and then in industry the sec- the, an alternate week, and so they go back and forth between the two.
00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:14.390
And my assumption is you d- you don't, you don't have an empty building for a week.
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:19.500
You have half the students i- at, at, at, at any one time for- Correct … for core.
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:20.030
Which lowers,
00:44:20.700 --> 00:44:27.470
Mike Huguelet: yeah, which lowers facilities costs 'cause you, you actually are never intending to have the full school in the building at the same time.
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:28.110
Yeah.
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.620
Um, you know, you do graduation, and you, you rent out another space, right?
00:44:31.620 --> 00:44:35.530
So, um, it, it, it is brilliant in its simplicity.
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:44.650
Um, and, uh, to my earlier point, though, like that, th- a traditional public school can organize theirs- themselves in, in a, in a different way.
00:44:44.930 --> 00:44:47.500
Um, maybe not as flexible in the scheduling.
00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:56.630
Um, but, um, but they, there, there are have been good trade and vocational schools in public districts all across the country historically.
00:44:57.080 --> 00:45:06.150
Many of them have gone away, you know, starting in the '80s and '90s when college prep, you know, and four-way, four, four-year school became the soup du jour, right?
00:45:06.210 --> 00:45:06.900
Um- Yeah
00:45:07.110 --> 00:45:16.260
and I think that's, you know, there's been a real loss, um, to, to those students, um, that really prefer that type of career.
00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:20.390
Um, and, you know, need the work-based learning.
00:45:20.390 --> 00:45:23.650
They want it, and, uh, but they're, the shift is coming back.
00:45:24.020 --> 00:45:25.940
Um, there's no doubt that that's coming back.
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:27.800
But, um, but that's an example, right?
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:29.130
Great Oaks is an example of that.
00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:32.620
And, um, you know, so we're trying to do that all across the state.
00:45:32.620 --> 00:45:34.630
We're, we're opening one campus at a time.
00:45:34.950 --> 00:45:44.780
Um, but in all of our, um, you know, there's 4,000 opportunity youth that have dropped out of high school in our state, uh, at least, um, that could still earn a diploma that, that I know of.
00:45:44.810 --> 00:45:51.610
And, um, but they don't really have an opportunity unless some- somebody sets up a new, a new pathway for them really.
00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:52.460
Mike Caldwell: I love that.
00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:52.950
Yeah.
00:45:52.950 --> 00:45:53.150
Yeah.
00:45:53.150 --> 00:45:53.930
That's really cool.
00:45:54.010 --> 00:45:54.200
Yeah.
00:45:54.230 --> 00:45:55.060
Thanks for sharing that.
00:45:55.160 --> 00:46:02.332
Um- Well, Mike, anything else that maybe I, I haven't asked, anything that's on your mind that you'd love to share that, uh, we didn't get to?
00:46:03.642 --> 00:46:03.792
Mike Huguelet: No.
00:46:03.832 --> 00:46:09.562
I appreciate the, the interest in, in the State of Iowa and our, our new public charter movement.
00:46:09.982 --> 00:46:22.752
Um, you know, I think this, this is the type of, uh, idea sharing back and forth that, um, that really we need in America as we continue to, to improve our, our system all across- in every state all across the country.
00:46:22.752 --> 00:46:27.192
So, um, you know, I don't think anybody has the, the, the answer, right?
00:46:27.192 --> 00:46:35.092
We, we, we really have to work together and, um, you know, I've just have been, been very lucky and grateful to all the people I've been learning from.
00:46:35.092 --> 00:46:42.472
And, um, like, uh, you know, Terry i- in Idaho running Bloom, um, has been very helpful in, in so many ways.
00:46:42.522 --> 00:46:47.432
Um, so grateful for the time and the conversation, Mike, and appreciate, uh, you know, what you do.
00:46:48.002 --> 00:46:48.312
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:46:48.342 --> 00:46:49.012
Absolutely.
00:46:49.012 --> 00:46:49.542
And thank you.
00:46:49.542 --> 00:46:52.292
And we always ask the last question of the, of the podcast.
00:46:52.292 --> 00:46:53.382
I'm curious on your answer.
00:46:53.382 --> 00:46:57.882
What does it mean to you to be a transformative principal or transformative leader?
00:46:57.992 --> 00:46:58.602
You choose.
00:46:59.862 --> 00:47:00.492
Mike Huguelet: Oh, man.
00:47:00.502 --> 00:47:03.732
That's a, that's a loaded, but, but good question.
00:47:04.372 --> 00:47:08.862
Um, I'm a, a, a data guy, right?
00:47:08.872 --> 00:47:37.092
So, um, so I would say, uh, to give a, um, specific but yet broad answer still, um, if you're a, a transformative leader, um, you're f- you're focused on the data points that are most important to your community, and those
data points are gonna be- are gonna transform and go in the right direction, whether that's, uh, you know, you're, uh, a school principal or superintendent, um, you know, and you're, you're working on attendance, right?
00:47:37.092 --> 00:47:42.112
So district I worked in, two-thirds of the students were chronically absent, right?
00:47:42.142 --> 00:47:45.512
Well, that's a data point you should be able to transform, right?
00:47:45.522 --> 00:47:45.772
Mm-hmm.
00:47:46.132 --> 00:47:47.452
I'm not saying that's easy.
00:47:47.862 --> 00:47:53.522
Um, uh, but it, but it, it is something that you would take a, you know, make a target.
00:47:54.112 --> 00:47:54.722
Uh, ELL, right?
00:47:54.752 --> 00:47:58.122
There's some communities that have a very high refugee pop- population.
00:47:58.472 --> 00:48:05.872
Uh, I grew up in, in, in the Miami area, high, um, you know, immigrant population from, from all over, um, the Caribbean and South America.
00:48:06.272 --> 00:48:14.942
Um, you know, so maybe your ELL is, is, is what you're, you're targeting, to have the best ELL program and accelerate students' language acquisition, right?
00:48:15.262 --> 00:48:26.392
Um, but really, uh, dive into what's most, um, needed and most, uh, the highest level of impact in your school community and transform in that direction, is what I would say.
00:48:27.112 --> 00:48:27.352
Mike Caldwell: Yep.
00:48:27.422 --> 00:48:28.212
Absolutely.
00:48:28.712 --> 00:48:29.782
Um, love it.
00:48:29.842 --> 00:48:30.242
Perfect.
00:48:30.242 --> 00:48:32.462
Thank you, Mike, again for being part of this.
00:48:32.462 --> 00:48:43.032
Good luck as you, uh, embark on new, you know, this… Continue this adventure, but also embark on opening new schools in Iowa and, um, all the things that come with that.
00:48:43.042 --> 00:48:46.972
So thanks again for the work that you do, and, uh, appreciate you being on the podcast today.
00:48:47.562 --> 00:48:47.862
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:48:48.052 --> 00:48:48.362
Thanks a lot.
00:48:48.362 --> 00:48:48.962
Appreciate it, Mike
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:10.986 --> 00:00:15.616
Mike Caldwell: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast.
00:00:15.616 --> 00:00:21.206
This is Mike Caldwell, your host, and joining me from Iowa is Mike Hugulet.
00:00:21.236 --> 00:00:21.946
Mike, welcome.
00:00:22.646 --> 00:00:23.026
Mike Huguelet: Thanks.
00:00:23.056 --> 00:00:23.626
Thanks for having me.
00:00:23.636 --> 00:00:24.376
Appreciate being here.
00:00:25.276 --> 00:00:28.316
Mike Caldwell: Mike, where in Iowa are you located exactly?
00:00:28.766 --> 00:00:31.606
Mike Huguelet: I live in the, in central Iowa in the Des Moines area.
00:00:31.946 --> 00:00:32.366
Mike Caldwell: Des Moines?
00:00:32.506 --> 00:00:32.946
All right.
00:00:32.956 --> 00:00:33.016
Yes.
00:00:33.806 --> 00:00:38.296
And, uh, not homegrown Iowan or, or-
00:00:38.316 --> 00:00:38.626
Mike Huguelet: Nope.
00:00:38.826 --> 00:00:41.996
I'm a, a transplant, so I, uh- Mm-hmm … a little bit of a nomad.
00:00:41.996 --> 00:00:44.176
I, uh, grew up in South Florida.
00:00:44.746 --> 00:00:54.116
Uh, but home is, uh, for me it's in Chicago, so I spent most of my life in Chicago and finished my K12 education, um, in the Chicagoland area.
00:00:54.206 --> 00:00:58.766
Um, and then, uh, spent most of my career, um, in, in the city of Chicago.
00:00:59.646 --> 00:00:59.916
Mike Caldwell: Gotcha.
00:00:59.946 --> 00:01:01.496
And where… Did you go to University of Iowa
00:01:01.806 --> 00:01:02.726
Mike Huguelet: for, uh- I did, yes.
00:01:02.746 --> 00:01:10.956
That's, that's, uh, where I met my, my better half, and that's what brought me back to the, to the Hawkeye State, um, about, uh, about 11 years ago.
00:01:10.956 --> 00:01:12.346
So, uh, so it's home now.
00:01:13.608 --> 00:01:18.278
Mike Caldwell: Well, fun fact, uh, Herky the Hawk, so that's the mascot for Iowa?
00:01:18.848 --> 00:01:19.178
Mike Huguelet: Yes.
00:01:19.188 --> 00:01:19.408
Is that
00:01:19.408 --> 00:01:19.768
Mike Caldwell: right?
00:01:20.058 --> 00:01:20.328
Mike Huguelet: It is,
00:01:20.328 --> 00:01:20.443
Mike Caldwell: yeah.
00:01:20.443 --> 00:01:23.818
And, uh, what's, what's your experience as Herky the Hawk?
00:01:23.838 --> 00:01:24.758
Tell me more about that.
00:01:25.348 --> 00:01:34.508
Mike Huguelet: Uh, so for, uh, two and a half years I, I, uh, was one of six mascots, uh, as, performed as Herky.
00:01:34.508 --> 00:01:42.368
So we, uh, covered all the, all the sports, uh, for men and women, um, you know, rowing.
00:01:42.398 --> 00:01:50.748
People always think of the, the big revenue TV sports like football and basketball, but, um, but we did gymnastics, uh, field hockey, rowing, you name it.
00:01:50.828 --> 00:02:02.708
Um, and then there's a, uh- Mm … being a, a, uh, the sort of flagship state institution in a, in a state like Iowa without professional sports, um, the, the colleges are a big deal.
00:02:02.708 --> 00:02:09.448
So we, we were… The athletic director would send us all around the state to, um, you know, public relations events.
00:02:09.448 --> 00:02:18.238
So, um, so I was able to see the state in a different way, um, even though the state didn't always see me, um, behind a, a beak.
00:02:18.948 --> 00:02:19.318
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:02:19.538 --> 00:02:23.438
Well, t- what, what was the most memorable experience as Herky the Hawk?
00:02:23.438 --> 00:02:24.208
I'm curious.
00:02:25.388 --> 00:02:38.128
Mike Huguelet: Um, I would say, I mean, just the, the overall experience of, um, being in front of, you know, our stadium was at that time 73,000 people, um, is, is a big rush.
00:02:38.178 --> 00:02:44.228
Um, you know, you, you can kinda do whatever you want, um, but people don't get to see you, which is kinda fun.
00:02:44.228 --> 00:02:46.988
The anonymity of, of it is, is fun.
00:02:47.058 --> 00:02:58.078
And just being a part of, um, making people, um, you know, giving people small moments of joy, um, there's a, a lot that, that, that, that goes with that, hospital visits and all that kinda stuff.
00:02:58.078 --> 00:03:05.558
But I would say the, sort of the thing I, I miss most is that, that big, um, atmosphere, uh, event type thing.
00:03:06.168 --> 00:03:06.378
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:03:06.558 --> 00:03:06.958
Right on.
00:03:07.728 --> 00:03:20.458
Uh, well, I'm a big, uh, former high school wrestl- wrestling coach, and so Iowa to me, I, I always think of their- … their wrestling program with Dan Gable back in the day, and they're, they're not as the powerhouse that they used to be.
00:03:20.458 --> 00:03:27.398
They're still pretty strong of course, but, uh, I've, I've, I've never been to one, but I'd love to go to an Iowa wrestling match someday.
00:03:27.978 --> 00:03:28.378
Mike Huguelet: Awesome.
00:03:28.588 --> 00:03:28.968
Yeah.
00:03:29.158 --> 00:03:31.278
It's alm- almost 15,000 people there.
00:03:31.278 --> 00:03:41.528
So it's, uh, it's, it's not normal in, in the rest of the country, but, uh, but yeah, they, they sell out an arena of 15,000 people for wrestling, which is pr- pretty high energy.
00:03:41.878 --> 00:03:42.238
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:03:43.388 --> 00:03:55.154
Well, Mike, we've had all kinds of guests on here from, you know, just- You know, principals, you know, superintendents, uh, you know, book authors, consultants, a little bit of everything.
00:03:55.204 --> 00:04:03.794
Um, I don't know the last time we had an executive director of a, of an association, um, specifically a p- public charter school association, so you may be the first.
00:04:03.804 --> 00:04:04.364
I don't know.
00:04:04.404 --> 00:04:05.264
Um, who knows?
00:04:05.454 --> 00:04:06.314
But, uh, welcome.
00:04:06.314 --> 00:04:07.574
Hopefully not the last one.
00:04:08.864 --> 00:04:09.274
Yeah.
00:04:09.304 --> 00:04:17.934
Well, I'm, I appreciate you, you taking my invite and joining me for this, for this, uh, episode, and looking forward to kinda diving into your work and what you're doing.
00:04:18.284 --> 00:04:23.838
Um, so you've been with the Iowa- Co- is it Coalition of Charter Schools?
00:04:23.848 --> 00:04:25.908
Is that the right- Yeah … terminology?
00:04:25.908 --> 00:04:28.048
And, um, for the last three years.
00:04:28.228 --> 00:04:32.598
Have you always been a charter school guy, or, or what's, what… Give a little bit of, of your background.
00:04:32.938 --> 00:04:33.178
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:04:33.418 --> 00:04:40.748
I started as a, a middle school history teacher in, in, um, suburban Minneapolis, uh, actually in a, um, private school.
00:04:40.818 --> 00:04:45.248
Um, it's where I started my career while my wife was doing her master's degrees there.
00:04:45.248 --> 00:05:01.118
And, um, so I've done the private school thing and then, um, moved, uh, back home to Chicago and, and, um, you know, launched a public
charter school in, on the south side of the city, um, that is, was the largest high school network, um, at the time in the country.
00:05:01.188 --> 00:05:02.158
Um, I think it still is.
00:05:02.158 --> 00:05:03.618
It's called Noble Schools.
00:05:03.618 --> 00:05:04.118
Mm-hmm.
00:05:04.118 --> 00:05:08.268
Um, Noble Street at the time that I founded, um, my campus.
00:05:08.328 --> 00:05:16.488
Uh, so, um, spent a, a dozen years there, mo- then moved to, to Iowa and worked in Des Moines Public Schools.
00:05:16.488 --> 00:05:24.418
I ran the school counseling program, so managed 102 counselors across, I think about 60 schools, um, for three and a half years.
00:05:24.418 --> 00:05:31.068
So I've done the public, um, school, public charter, and, um, private school, um, you know, settings.
00:05:31.478 --> 00:05:34.918
Um, so, you know, different experiences in all of those different settings.
00:05:34.988 --> 00:05:43.358
Um, uh, and, um, yeah, so the, now this is a, a, a sort of a unique, uh, organization.
00:05:43.358 --> 00:05:47.478
I, I launched the Iowa Coalition in 2023, July of '23.
00:05:47.828 --> 00:05:50.058
Um, so it didn't exist, um, at all.
00:05:50.418 --> 00:05:53.228
Uh, it's kind of a unicorn in, in many ways.
00:05:53.278 --> 00:05:57.958
Um, our public charter law was, was written and passed in 2021.
00:05:58.568 --> 00:06:02.138
Um, so it's a very new, um, market, right?
00:06:02.138 --> 00:06:13.428
So most of my colleagues around the country, um, they have existing markets and they, they, they really do the legislative advocacy and then professional development are their two main things.
00:06:13.938 --> 00:06:16.118
Um, and I do do that as well.
00:06:16.418 --> 00:06:21.558
Um, but I'm, I'm truly building the market on a day-to-day basis.
00:06:21.568 --> 00:06:32.098
So there were, um, you know, three district-run public charter schools- Mm-hmm … um, when I s- uh, and then one independent one when I started.
00:06:32.098 --> 00:06:42.338
So there were four small schools in small towns and, um, we've launched three school or six schools over the last, um, you know, three years with eight more approved.
00:06:42.768 --> 00:06:55.588
Um, so the, the enrollment, student enrollment has grown by 400%, um, since we started and, um, you know, I, what I usually tell people is like a, a car wash association works on free market principles, right?
00:06:56.028 --> 00:07:00.748
Uh, people get together, they put their money to, to open a car wash, and then they join the association.
00:07:01.538 --> 00:07:16.516
We're working in the opposite where I'd sp- I may spend two years to get a school off the ground, um, but I have to create my own membership, whereas My counterparts in, in Idaho where you're at, or Arizona, they have, you know, 100 plus charter schools.
00:07:16.516 --> 00:07:20.566
They just sort of sustain the market as it is and, and, uh…
00:07:20.656 --> 00:07:23.336
So that's a really unique thing about Iowa at the moment.
00:07:23.616 --> 00:07:24.676
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, it really is.
00:07:24.886 --> 00:07:29.706
What, um, what inspired the development of the Iowa Coalition?
00:07:29.726 --> 00:07:35.856
Is it just something you wanted to do, or did somebody… Uh, w- yeah, what, what was the impetus of getting this going?
00:07:36.646 --> 00:07:37.006
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:07:37.096 --> 00:07:40.896
Um, well, if you're old like me, you've been in the game for a long time, you're, you're…
00:07:40.906 --> 00:07:51.126
The, the people you've been, uh, you know, associated with or people you've taught, um, you know, grow in number significantly and, uh, so sometimes it comes full circle.
00:07:51.126 --> 00:07:57.366
So, um, my, uh, my board chair, um, you know, is a nonprofit organization now at Coalition.
00:07:57.736 --> 00:08:05.676
Um, he, he was the advocate that passed the charter law, and then he raised enough money, um, to start an association.
00:08:05.676 --> 00:08:24.106
We had… He raised six months of, of seed capital, um, and then called the state next door, Illinois, just to ask the, uh, executive director of the
Illinois Network of Charter Schools, um, "Hey, do you know anybody, uh, that could run our association? We're right next door." Um, his name's Andrew.
00:08:24.106 --> 00:08:24.916
Andrew did not.
00:08:25.106 --> 00:08:26.456
He said, "I, I've never been to Iowa.
00:08:26.456 --> 00:08:32.646
I don't know anybody there, but let me… Hold on, let me ask somebody who might." And he asked his, um, his chief of staff.
00:08:33.036 --> 00:08:34.776
Um, her name's Ariel Johnson.
00:08:34.776 --> 00:08:36.866
She was one of my students in 2004.
00:08:36.866 --> 00:08:36.886
Um,
00:08:39.786 --> 00:08:48.786
and, uh, she, you know, she went on to be very successful, became an attorney, and was chief of staff and w- in- in-house counsel for, for the Illinois Network of Charter Schools.
00:08:48.786 --> 00:09:06.564
And she told him, she's like, "I, I know only one person in the whole state of Iowa, and he's a charter guy." So, um- So again, full circle,
that's how I got connected and, uh, and I, I was looking for, uh, an opportunity to put, um- To really make a difference, uh, in the state.
00:09:06.614 --> 00:09:14.004
Uh, Iowa has traditionally had one of the most, um, effective and successful public school systems in the, in the country.
00:09:14.414 --> 00:09:27.204
Um, and it's just eroded over time in the last 10, 10 years as the, the demographics have changed and, um, you know, much higher, um, free and reduced lunch numbers in, in the, the cities across the state.
00:09:27.554 --> 00:09:32.074
Um, the academic achievement has, has s- has suffered and gone down.
00:09:32.214 --> 00:09:45.074
Um, so I saw that personally when I was working in Des Moines and, um, just believe there's a way to, to address it in a, in, in a really head-on way, um, with public charter schools, so.
00:09:45.294 --> 00:09:45.524
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:09:45.964 --> 00:09:46.554
Well, congrats.
00:09:46.564 --> 00:09:55.154
That's a huge honor, a huge endeavor, and, uh, definitely have an opportunity to make some significant impact in your own st- in your own state, so that's great.
00:09:55.304 --> 00:10:02.784
Um, you know, every state has unique laws as it relates to, well, anything education, but specifically to, to charters.
00:10:02.784 --> 00:10:03.714
It's all over the map.
00:10:04.214 --> 00:10:15.704
Um, can you provide a kind of a overview of what Iowa's doing in the charter school space in terms of any new or existing laws that have been passed since it's all fairly fresh?
00:10:15.994 --> 00:10:16.504
Mike Huguelet: Sure.
00:10:16.564 --> 00:10:16.974
Yeah.
00:10:17.034 --> 00:10:20.624
Um, we have the benefit of, you know, being one of the new kids on the block.
00:10:20.624 --> 00:10:28.304
I think we were the 45th or 46th state that was, um, you know, enabled, empowered to, to run public charters.
00:10:28.304 --> 00:10:31.234
So, um, I don't pretend I'm smarter than anybody else.
00:10:31.234 --> 00:10:40.994
I asked all my colleagues from around the country when I got th- got here, like what, um, what, what should we attack first as we change the, the, the laws and improve the conditions for schools?
00:10:41.354 --> 00:10:47.944
Um, so the one thing I will say is we started at a, um-- We didn't start at a point of great weakness.
00:10:47.964 --> 00:10:50.864
There weren't poison pills, many poison pills in our law.
00:10:50.864 --> 00:10:51.934
We don't have caps.
00:10:52.294 --> 00:11:01.604
Um, we don't have to… We, we can authorize, um, through the State Board of Education, so the local districts don't have any, um, say or impact in our authorization.
00:11:02.044 --> 00:11:09.314
Um, so there, there really was, was not a lot of, um, you know, bad elements of the, of the law that we had to change.
00:11:09.594 --> 00:11:19.014
Um, but one… The, the, the worst part of it is we're left, w-we're left behind in many of the funding sources, um, that are allocated to public schools.
00:11:19.374 --> 00:11:41.900
Um, when I started in '23, um, you know, we were getting about half of that, um, funding from, uh, that local public schools get Um, so we've been able to come back with two
different pieces of legislation, one in '24 and one, uh, that actually was signed yesterday by the governor, um, that have, uh, increased that per pupil funding significantly.
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:47.160
Um, so there's really only one major pot, um, that the state allocates that we don't get.
00:11:47.500 --> 00:11:54.620
Um, and I'll, I'll come for that in a different, uh, year, but there was no way we were gonna get that passed, um, this year, so we got everything that we could.
00:11:54.700 --> 00:11:59.220
Um, so everybody's budgets will go up by about ten percent next year, which is amazing for them.
00:11:59.780 --> 00:12:04.230
Um, and, um, and then we have to get some facility support.
00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:06.600
That's really the, the main thing that slows us down.
00:12:06.610 --> 00:12:08.930
We don't have access to local property taxes.
00:12:09.420 --> 00:12:12.150
Um, we can't, um, run bond referendums here.
00:12:12.520 --> 00:12:19.570
Um, so this law we passed yesterday, um, uh, established a, a revolving loan fund here in the state.
00:12:19.970 --> 00:12:24.340
Um, it has not received an appropriation yet, so there's no money in the, in the account yet.
00:12:24.350 --> 00:12:27.670
But, um, many states do that in subsequent years.
00:12:27.780 --> 00:12:33.960
You know, one, one year you get it set up and, and running, and then you keep chasing the, the money from the legislature after that.
00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:43.260
So that's the approach we've taken, is just to get it in, in law, and then, uh, I'll spend as much capital and time as I can to, uh, to get the money to put in there.
00:12:43.270 --> 00:12:50.140
'Cause that's, that's really the thing-- only thing that's slowing us down right now is, um, just getting the seed capital for renovations and construction
00:12:51.296 --> 00:12:51.996
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, right on.
00:12:51.996 --> 00:12:53.396
That, that is a big hurdle.
00:12:53.406 --> 00:12:56.586
Um, and I'm sure you've talked to folks in Idaho that,
00:12:56.786 --> 00:12:56.926
Mike Huguelet: uh-
00:12:56.936 --> 00:13:03.876
Mike Caldwell: Yep … have done some amazing things to put, put that together, um, for, for charters here in our, in my state.
00:13:03.876 --> 00:13:04.806
So that's, that's cool.
00:13:04.816 --> 00:13:07.396
Congratulations on getting, getting that passed.
00:13:07.396 --> 00:13:10.926
That, uh, that is a significant hurdle to overcome, for sure.
00:13:10.996 --> 00:13:11.016
Yeah.
00:13:11.556 --> 00:13:11.686
Yes.
00:13:11.706 --> 00:13:22.176
Um, well give me the, g- give me a feel of the scope of how many, how many charters are we talking about in the state of I- Iowa currently, and, and what's in maybe year, year zero or even- Yeah
00:13:22.176 --> 00:13:25.136
minus one, like kind of where you're at in the development of new schools.
00:13:25.676 --> 00:13:26.036
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:13:26.136 --> 00:13:31.516
So we're currently at 10, um, public charter schools, uh, uh, open and, and operating.
00:13:31.596 --> 00:13:35.906
Um, we have eight approved to launch in the next 15 months.
00:13:36.486 --> 00:13:43.376
Um, and those are all s- um, groups that have worked with the Iowa Coalition to, to, you know, apply and be approved.
00:13:43.756 --> 00:13:50.206
Um, so I'm working with them now on finding their, their facilities and hiring, um, you know, founding staff.
00:13:50.256 --> 00:14:05.756
Uh, many of the out-of-state CMOs, they don't have any roots here yet, um, or boots on the ground, so when it comes to just thinking about
s- um, setting up a local school board, um, or f- hiring a founding principal, they, they literally don't have any, um, any connections.
00:14:06.076 --> 00:14:08.146
Um, so I do a lot of that legwork for them.
00:14:08.146 --> 00:14:21.536
So, um, but in any case, um, we- the state received a state entity CSP grant, um, in May of '25, so that will help facilitate the launch or expansion of 35 new schools.
00:14:22.136 --> 00:14:32.216
Um, so- Wow … it's gonna be exponential, um, now that we've, you know, improved the law, we have the CSP seed capital for, for, um, for startup costs.
00:14:32.656 --> 00:14:35.286
Um, it really will grow very quickly.
00:14:35.286 --> 00:14:44.776
So I would anticipate… We've, we've been on average getting, um, about seven schools approved the first three years that I, I, I've, um, been at this.
00:14:45.186 --> 00:14:56.126
Um, so I would anticipate that we have, um, you know, at least that much if not, you know, 50% more each year from this point forward, just because, um, we didn't…
00:14:56.346 --> 00:15:00.306
W- the conditions were not as good and the, the, the, um, that's changed.
00:15:00.306 --> 00:15:12.406
So I, I literally have gotten calls already- Mm-hmm … um, in the last two weeks since, um, you know, this, uh, bill's been moving forward, um, from groups that I, I didn't even know who they were, but they're interested in coming to Iowa now.
00:15:13.026 --> 00:15:13.326
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:15:13.906 --> 00:15:14.316
Wow.
00:15:14.956 --> 00:15:16.316
Well that's, that's exciting.
00:15:16.326 --> 00:15:20.526
That's a lot of, lot of growth in a sounds like a fair- fairly short amount of time.
00:15:20.526 --> 00:15:22.776
So you got your work cut out for you, for sure.
00:15:22.826 --> 00:15:25.336
Um, that's, that's, that's great to hear.
00:15:26.558 --> 00:15:36.008
Now you, your experience is both in a traditional public school, private school, charter s- I mean, obviously from your role, you're a charter advocate.
00:15:36.058 --> 00:15:37.848
Um, tell me why.
00:15:37.858 --> 00:15:48.728
What, what, what kind of drives your kind of, uh, you know, work in, in, in advocacy for the charter space in Iowa?
00:15:48.738 --> 00:15:56.388
What do you see as, as, as important in, in, in the work that you're doing, um, in specifically in your state?
00:15:57.438 --> 00:15:57.848
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:15:57.938 --> 00:16:06.832
Uh, what I always tell people is I'm a advocate for effective schools And that can come in any stripes, in any lane, right?
00:16:06.902 --> 00:16:15.462
Um, so, so I'm by no means, um, in any way against, uh, traditional public districts, uh, definitely not ag- against private schools.
00:16:15.462 --> 00:16:18.412
We actually have U- universal ESA here in Iowa.
00:16:18.822 --> 00:16:23.212
Um, and the bill we passed actually, um, opened up a second enrollment period.
00:16:23.212 --> 00:16:30.782
We… It was like a, a major omnibus bill for K-12 education with homeschool priorities, private school, and charter school.
00:16:31.272 --> 00:16:48.662
Um, but, um, as it relates to your question, um, one of the things that, um, I see as a benefit to the, the public charter sector is that, um, the, the red tape to get things done is generally a lot lower, a lot less.
00:16:49.092 --> 00:17:07.202
Um, you know, an example I, you know, give is, um, the amount of hoops I had to jump through when I was in Des Moines Public Schools to, to just
get a, a, a basic decision approved, um, for hiring and for, for whatever I wanted to do with my team as the director of the counseling program.
00:17:07.202 --> 00:17:09.712
It just… Everything was glacial, right?
00:17:09.822 --> 00:17:19.822
Um, and then by… Oftentimes by the time you, you got the approval, you might have missed the window to actually get something, a new initiative moving, right?
00:17:20.192 --> 00:17:31.392
Um, and because the sense of urgency is there for charters, if you don't succeed, if you're not getting… meeting student outcomes in your performance metrics, the state closes you, right?
00:17:31.392 --> 00:17:35.832
I, I fundamentally believe that's just the way it should be for, for everybody.
00:17:35.922 --> 00:17:42.922
Um, I know that's not, that's not how it works for private schools and, and traditional publics, but, um, you know, per se.
00:17:43.012 --> 00:17:50.902
Um, but I, I do believe that everyone should have the same, um, type of performance, uh, metrics, and that is…
00:17:50.952 --> 00:17:52.872
that should be student-driven, right?
00:17:52.872 --> 00:17:58.632
So, um, I, I… What I tell people is I don't believe charters are, quote-unquote, the answer.
00:17:58.672 --> 00:18:10.712
I just believe they're a major part, um, and serve as a catalyst really, um, to, to getting innovation going and, and… I, I do believe the rising tides b- rises all boats.
00:18:11.042 --> 00:18:22.412
Um, I'm not naive that, um, you know, there's challenges that are, that, that come with setting up new schools and, and, um, that often leads to, to traditional public schools closing.
00:18:22.852 --> 00:18:41.602
Um, and, uh, so it, it's not a, a, you know, a panacea by any means, but, um, but I do-- I've seen it work, um, in some of the most difficult conditions,
uh, in the country, um, in, in inner city Chicago, and if, if it can work there, I believe it can work in rural Idaho or rural Iowa, you know?
00:18:42.292 --> 00:18:42.562
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:18:43.840 --> 00:19:01.330
Yeah, it's, you know, I th- in my experience with, you know, in a couple years working with charters here in Idaho, um, you know, I, I s- definitely see
there's, there's, you know, some advantages that in, when you're starting fresh, starting new, there, you can move and kind of create the vision and it's a…
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:21.880
You can move faster in, in a lot of ways and, and do some innovative things, um, without a lot of the friction that you end up with, you know, starting with s- you
know, s- uh, trying to, trying to move, you know, a, a, a- entity that's, you know, been established for, you know, hundreds of years or whatever the case may be.
00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:28.340
Um, so I see the advantages of, of kind of starting new and starting fresh, obviously.
00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:33.600
Um, what do you see as, as maybe the disadvantages that charters face?
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:41.340
Obviously, you know, the, you mentioned the facilities and, and that the difference in kind of a a- acquisition of funds for facilities.
00:19:41.340 --> 00:19:50.720
What do you see as, as maybe some other disadvantages and, and w- maybe also touch on what do you see as, as some advantages of kind of in the charter space?
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:51.580
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:56.080
Um, well, I'll go with the disadvantages first in, in, uh, no particular order.
00:19:56.080 --> 00:19:59.280
I mean, funding is, is always one of the main ones, right?
00:19:59.330 --> 00:20:04.220
Um, uh, uh, there's very few states that are at, um, full per pupil parity.
00:20:04.610 --> 00:20:10.860
Um, very few ha- get local property taxes, you know, so that's obviously one major, um, challenge.
00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:12.620
Facilities is the next one.
00:20:12.660 --> 00:20:24.930
Um, you know, uh, where I live, they, they just passed a $265 million bond referendum, which that wouldn't be very big in a city like Chicago or LA, but in the state of Iowa, that's a massive amount of money, right?
00:20:25.270 --> 00:20:31.960
Um, so, um, but they'll put that all into capital improvements for facilities, so that's great.
00:20:31.970 --> 00:20:33.310
I'm not against that, for the record.
00:20:33.330 --> 00:20:39.840
Like, that's, um, a necessary thing for, for that school system and, um, I have no, um, nothing against that.
00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:41.160
It's just we, we can't do that.
00:20:41.810 --> 00:20:43.920
Um, we don't have the ability to do that type of thing, right?
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.480
So, um, and then I think, um, public perception, right?
00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:50.470
Just the ignorance of what a public charter school is.
00:20:50.870 --> 00:21:01.480
Uh, I, I go to the state legislature to advocate on, on our school's behalf, and everybody assumes, even the people on the education committee, that the word charter means private.
00:21:01.830 --> 00:21:02.180
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:21:02.950 --> 00:21:02.970
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:06.660
That it's synonymous with private, 'cause they just don't know what charter means, right?
00:21:07.040 --> 00:21:11.430
Um, so I have to re-educate everybody in, uh, literally, like almost everybody in the state.
00:21:11.870 --> 00:21:14.230
The word charter is synonymous with contract.
00:21:14.780 --> 00:21:17.610
It's not, has nothing to do with ESAs, right?
00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:20.980
Has nothing to do with, um, private schools or religious schools for that matter.
00:21:21.290 --> 00:21:27.250
Um, again, nothing against those schools, it's just that's not our identity and that's not the legal framework we operate in, right?
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.990
Um, so I would say those are the major disadvantages.
00:21:30.330 --> 00:21:32.280
Um, oh, one more along with that.
00:21:32.310 --> 00:21:36.200
Um, you know, just public ignorance to what we actually are and what we are not.
00:21:36.590 --> 00:21:42.220
Um, that's an uphill battle in winning the hearts and minds, right?
00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:54.956
So I, I, I literally, um, win over one, um, newspaper and one city council member at a time Um, and, and that is a, like literally a true story for, uh…
00:21:54.966 --> 00:22:05.556
I've been working on one of our, our major newspapers in the state for almost three full years now, and for the first time, um, this education reporter agreed to do an interview with me tomorrow.
00:22:06.056 --> 00:22:10.356
Sh- she has not written a positive story about public charter schools in three years.
00:22:10.876 --> 00:22:27.946
Uh, I've taken her on tours of multiple of them, um, and I've killed multiple stories that she's called me about saying that she thought she was gonna write a negative
story, and then I answered all the- her questions and, um, there was no story that came out 'cause, you know, there, there was no story there to be had, right?
00:22:28.096 --> 00:22:28.486
Yeah.
00:22:28.496 --> 00:22:34.866
Um, but somebody, you know, um, puts misinformation in there about what charters are and what they're not, right?
00:22:34.866 --> 00:22:36.166
So those are the disadvantages.
00:22:36.486 --> 00:22:40.056
Um, again, I think the, the advantages, as I said earlier, less red tape.
00:22:40.426 --> 00:22:50.416
Um, we traditionally have non-elected school boards, so, um, they're just volunteers, like people who are overseeing Make-A-Wish, right?
00:22:50.416 --> 00:23:06.736
So you just look at it from a perspective of what's the best thing for the, for the mission of this school, as opposed to well, this is a
stepping stone for me running for city council or running for then, um, state government or whatever, and many school board members do that.
00:23:07.186 --> 00:23:12.206
Um, and so there's just no political, um, decision-making, right?
00:23:12.246 --> 00:23:15.146
It's just what is best for kids and for this school.
00:23:15.436 --> 00:23:20.266
So that's really one of the, like, most untalked about secret sauces to charters.
00:23:20.816 --> 00:23:21.366
Um-
00:23:21.546 --> 00:23:22.406
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, really good point
00:23:23.046 --> 00:23:23.776
… Mike Huguelet: yeah, really.
00:23:23.776 --> 00:23:26.016
It's, it's totally glossed over by most people.
00:23:26.076 --> 00:23:29.196
Um, but I, I have seen that as a massive advantage.
00:23:29.686 --> 00:23:40.474
Um, then, uh, you know, uh, the-- we are the lane for the irrational person And I mean that in a good way, right?
00:23:40.474 --> 00:23:44.644
So you think about it for just from, like, a, a s- 30,000-foot view.
00:23:45.594 --> 00:23:47.074
Public schools exist.
00:23:48.064 --> 00:23:50.184
Why do we need new public schools?
00:23:50.214 --> 00:23:52.194
That's the question I always get, right?
00:23:52.214 --> 00:24:13.954
So people like me who, who, um, have launched multiple charter schools, um, we look at, at the data and say, "Okay, um, last year 92% of, uh, kids
in Davenport," which is one of our biggest cities on the Mississippi River, "were in a school that was rated below acceptable by the state of Iowa."
00:24:14.644 --> 00:24:16.354
That's just not okay, right?
00:24:16.394 --> 00:24:24.484
You shouldn't be sentenced to a mediocre to, to, um, below average education because you were born in a zip code.
00:24:25.154 --> 00:24:32.364
Just whether that's in the middle of nowhere Iowa or, you know, um, Miami, where I grew up, um, that's just not okay, right?
00:24:32.364 --> 00:24:36.524
So, um, but that's the, the reality, and the data, it says that.
00:24:36.794 --> 00:24:38.004
So guess what?
00:24:38.024 --> 00:24:45.864
We launched a new public charter school there this year in Davenport, and another one is opening i- in three months, um, because it's just not okay, right?
00:24:45.864 --> 00:25:00.974
So you, you, you ha- you, you attract the irrational people that are very passionate about kids and about, um, closing the achievement gap, and, uh, and those kinda crazy people like myself say, "We can do this better, and the kids deserve better."
00:25:01.364 --> 00:25:09.724
And we're gonna put up with all of the, um, opposition that we get from the local district, from potentially city government.
00:25:10.064 --> 00:25:21.454
Um, and, uh, and we're just gonna convince people that we can, we can take care of their kids, and we'll love their kids as much as they do, and, you know, um, do this better, right?
00:25:21.454 --> 00:25:23.904
So, um, so I think that I…
00:25:23.944 --> 00:25:33.394
To me, that's an advantage is you, you re- you really can attract very passionate people who are willing to say, "Hey, let's try something different here," right?
00:25:33.464 --> 00:25:45.124
You can find all sorts of creative, um, type of school models or, um, you know, student supports that, uh, you're not asking the question, "Well, what have we always done?"
00:25:45.944 --> 00:25:53.364
We're looking at the data and saying, "Well, this is the problem. This is the challenge. What, what has worked before, but what could be different?"
00:25:54.064 --> 00:25:54.394
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:25:55.904 --> 00:25:59.934
You know, charter schools have been around, you know, for, for a long, long time now.
00:25:59.934 --> 00:26:20.014
And, you know, I always think of, you know, charter schools were created to kinda create, um, create an alternative o- offer, you know,
or create a space for innovation and, and something new that hopefully will u- ultimately inform and, um, change the bigger system, right?
00:26:20.074 --> 00:26:20.634
Um- Yep
00:26:22.922 --> 00:26:35.302
And I have my own thoughts on that, you know, and but I, I wonder, like, what you see as what are some of those things, you know, and I know Iowa's charter space is fairly new, but you've been around charters a long, l- much longer time.
00:26:35.782 --> 00:26:52.410
What do you see as some of those things that, um, it's time that now are, you know, trickle over to the traditional public space Whether it's law changes or other, I don't know.
00:26:52.460 --> 00:27:06.120
But, um, what do you see as kind of, it's, it's time to s- influence or actually take these lessons learned that, that we've, we've learned from the charter space over to the traditional public school space?
00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:07.110
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.930
Um, I'm gonna s- because, uh, I was new, I'm gonna go back to Chicago and give you some examples.
00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:20.870
Um, I think one thing, um, that, um, you know, gets lost in many conversations is this is all about human beings, right?
00:27:21.190 --> 00:27:23.230
So the humans will go back and forth.
00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:35.140
So there's a, a woman that, that was, um… I worked, um, at a, you know, at one charter school on the South Side, and there was an English teacher on our staff that wanted an opportunity to be a principal, right?
00:27:35.180 --> 00:27:41.250
But that was not coming at our school, and it wasn't coming in our, our network because there just wasn't any openings.
00:27:41.610 --> 00:27:47.620
Um, so she went to the traditional public school that was literally across the street from my, my, uh, where I lived.
00:27:48.010 --> 00:27:50.790
Um, and she did a phenomenal job at that.
00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:53.270
It was a traditional Chicago public school.
00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:59.460
She took all the lessons she learned from our, our high-performing charter network right to that school, right?
00:27:59.530 --> 00:28:10.500
Um, the human beings will go back and forth, whether that's students or staff, um, because they're looking for, um, either a new opportunity, um, or they just, you know, they just want a change, right?
00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.230
So, um, so that, I think that gets lost because it's a little bit harder to quantify.
00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:19.960
Um, but that is really the main thing that I see is, is how it happens.
00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:25.750
Um, you know, there's I think 115 charter schools now or something like that in the city of Chicago.
00:28:26.090 --> 00:28:30.510
Um, but there were 127 public high schools when I was there, right?
00:28:30.530 --> 00:28:36.880
So, um, so th- not all those charters were high school, but those lessons are going back and forth in great numbers.
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:46.530
In a, in a place that big, um, there's just a lot of that ex-ex-exchange of ideas and exchange of, um, of, of people, um, employees moving back and forth.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:29:04.130
Um, and, uh, so an example of, you know, to, to blink the two worlds for me, um, when I was, um, leading the, the counseling program in Des Moines Public Schools, um, you know, we needed… There, there's, the city has changed here.
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:09.630
Um, there's a lot more, um, poverty and violence, and crime comes along with poverty, right?
00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:16.850
Um, so, um, we were looking for trauma-informed care and to, to training for counselors on that.
00:29:17.210 --> 00:29:24.560
Um, well, when I was in Chicago, the, the counseling program there was m- was sort of, uh, let's say ineffective.
00:29:24.580 --> 00:29:26.070
Just be nice and polite, right?
00:29:26.340 --> 00:29:27.450
Um, but
00:29:30.988 --> 00:29:38.338
Des Moines Public Schools hired the team from Chicago Public Schools counseling to come do the trauma-informed care training here, 'cause they've done such a great job there, right?
00:29:38.368 --> 00:29:46.638
That was one of the ways that they could be competitive is they raised the bar with their counseling program to help keep student retention in their schools.
00:29:46.968 --> 00:29:52.538
And then that ripple effect came all the way across the river 300 miles away, right?
00:29:52.618 --> 00:29:56.618
Like, th- that's a real thing happening and I believe that's how it should be.
00:29:56.918 --> 00:30:01.048
Um, we should just help each other on how, how, what's the best way to serve kids.
00:30:01.048 --> 00:30:03.608
If you learn something that could help me, then great, let's share it.
00:30:04.108 --> 00:30:04.368
So-
00:30:04.398 --> 00:30:04.628
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:30:05.218 --> 00:30:05.428
Yeah … hope
00:30:05.428 --> 00:30:06.198
Mike Huguelet: that makes sense.
00:30:06.198 --> 00:30:08.468
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, I'll pose a question.
00:30:08.518 --> 00:30:12.288
Um, you know, when I … Again, my experience in ch- charter schools.
00:30:12.288 --> 00:30:19.508
Charter schools have the, have the, um, I guess flexibility w- of capped enrollment, right?
00:30:19.548 --> 00:30:22.428
They can set their enrollment to X, X amount.
00:30:22.908 --> 00:30:22.928
Yeah.
00:30:22.958 --> 00:30:25.538
And, you know, if they have … And they have a
00:30:25.608 --> 00:30:27.078
They, then they get a waiting list, right?
00:30:27.078 --> 00:30:28.138
Of- Yeah … whatever.
00:30:28.688 --> 00:30:36.878
Um, and that's a key difference that oftentimes I think is also o- o- overlooked between charters and traditional public schools.
00:30:36.888 --> 00:30:45.068
Traditional public schools don't have- Right … that flexibility or the, the authority to, to cap enrollment.
00:30:45.128 --> 00:30:46.668
They, they take whoever they get.
00:30:46.728 --> 00:30:52.738
Now, in both cases they're, they're funded similarly on a per student basis, you know.
00:30:52.738 --> 00:30:55.868
So enrollment grows, their funding grows and they adapt.
00:30:56.338 --> 00:31:14.066
Um- I see that as an advantage of, of, of charter schools to a certain extent because, you know, they build a, a certain building and they're
built for a certain size, and they can, they can kinda hold, hold those class sizes kind of to a certain threshold based on that, um, those caps.
00:31:14.436 --> 00:31:17.536
So that is an advantage, I believe.
00:31:17.566 --> 00:31:18.806
Do you see that as an advantage?
00:31:18.816 --> 00:31:26.596
And if it is, is there some way to translate that over to a traditional setting?
00:31:27.526 --> 00:31:27.956
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:31:28.036 --> 00:31:31.056
I mean, I would, I would say it is a, an advantage.
00:31:31.056 --> 00:31:32.606
I, I wouldn't run, run from that.
00:31:32.606 --> 00:31:41.016
I think that, um, it, it provides some stability in the sense that you don't have to, you know, you don't have to m- adjust your hiring model.
00:31:41.036 --> 00:31:45.986
If you, you know, you have a waiting list every year, you're gonna hit your enrollment target and you're, you're set, right?
00:31:46.006 --> 00:31:47.246
I mean, that's the advantage.
00:31:47.676 --> 00:32:04.146
Um, what I would say though, and I… This is, like, the biggest soapbox I've gotten on in my whole career is that, um, there is nothing stopping traditional public schools from organizing themselves differently, right?
00:32:04.206 --> 00:32:16.586
Um, there is very little creativity it, that I've seen really anywhere, and I've lived in four different states and went to public schools in, um, in two of those, um, for my, my edu- my own education.
00:32:16.926 --> 00:32:18.076
Um, and I'll give you an example.
00:32:18.076 --> 00:32:27.256
So the town I live in, um, very effective school district, but, um, you know, the, it's very common setup to, to the rest of the country, right?
00:32:27.256 --> 00:32:33.626
There's five elementary schools, and they make sure that, that each one's roughly 600 students each.
00:32:33.966 --> 00:32:48.186
So K through 5, we're gonna make sure that these kids have a very shelter, like, supportive environment and, um, they all have a, a, you know, a space where all the teachers and administrators know their names, right?
00:32:48.726 --> 00:32:54.426
Well, then we feed all those kids into one middle school, and then we feed all those kids into one high school.
00:32:54.426 --> 00:33:01.316
A- a- and 2,200 kids in, in, in, in the high school, and the high school's only 10 through 12 here in my town, right?
00:33:01.316 --> 00:33:03.886
So 2,200 kids in that, in that, that space.
00:33:04.316 --> 00:33:20.906
Um, and, and oftentimes, this is again, I'm editorializing here, Mike, um, the excuse given is that, "Well, we need to offer them the, the AP classes and
the s- the extracurricular activities, you know, so we have to put them all in one place 'cause it's the only way to organize and offer them those things."
00:33:21.306 --> 00:33:25.076
And I just fundamentally think that that's not actually true, right?
00:33:25.436 --> 00:33:43.872
If I was running it and starting from scratch, and this is again the advantage of the charter system, I would have five K-12 schools And then
if you, if you wanna offer an AP class that you don't have the, um, the actual enrollment to do, you can offer it all at one high school, right?
00:33:43.892 --> 00:33:58.312
And do the transportation between the, the, the five high schools to the one, one, one could be, do, do all the, you know, advanced math,
one does all the advanced science, one does all the advanced English and, and, um, language arts, um, one does the social studies, right?
00:33:58.312 --> 00:34:00.232
You just, you could set it up differently.
00:34:00.562 --> 00:34:02.642
Um, it just doesn't have to be that way.
00:34:02.912 --> 00:34:06.962
And, and that's where the, the flexibility in, in charters comes in.
00:34:07.242 --> 00:34:14.612
Um, so, you know, the school that we hosted the, the governor's bill signing at yesterday is, um, it's a high school.
00:34:15.302 --> 00:34:16.162
It's called Des Moines Prep.
00:34:16.162 --> 00:34:19.042
It will, at full capacity, be 600 kids in the high school.
00:34:19.852 --> 00:34:25.732
Well, there's a lot of students that are more comfortable with a small setting like that, right?
00:34:25.782 --> 00:34:26.842
And that's what they want.
00:34:26.962 --> 00:34:28.192
But they don't have that.
00:34:29.082 --> 00:34:31.892
The smallest Des Moines high school is 1,000 kids.
00:34:31.892 --> 00:34:37.242
The, the, the biggest one is roughly 2,500 every- and everything in between.
00:34:37.522 --> 00:34:43.222
And, um, but they, they have not chosen to reorganize in any way, right?
00:34:43.362 --> 00:34:47.112
Um, and, and I do believe that you, you can reorganize.
00:34:47.362 --> 00:34:50.792
If you have… You know, they have 60 buildings, right?
00:34:51.102 --> 00:34:58.242
That's a lot of, lot of real estate to, uh, to, to rearrange, and you can… And they are realigning it, to be honest.
00:34:58.502 --> 00:35:03.392
They're realigning it now to compete with, with some of the private schools and, and the charters.
00:35:03.772 --> 00:35:08.212
Um, but they're still realigning it in a way that's very traditional.
00:35:08.392 --> 00:35:17.382
It's just- Mm … fe- setting up feeder patterns, um, and closing some schools that are older and, um, are just under- underutilized, under-enrolled.
00:35:17.752 --> 00:35:30.852
Um, but whether I'm right or not about that, Mike, that's my soapbox that I get on 'cause I, I just think fundamentally there's a way to, um, to look at the same amount of resources that you have and reorganize that in a different way.
00:35:31.522 --> 00:35:31.822
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:35:32.262 --> 00:35:37.252
No, I can, I can totally see that, and I've, um, uh, I agree with you.
00:35:37.282 --> 00:35:39.772
It's, it's hard to do.
00:35:39.782 --> 00:35:40.602
It takes vision.
00:35:40.752 --> 00:35:54.022
Um, and it get… You know, it's, it takes a leader to kinda get a lot of people moving in, in, in the same direction to, to, to make that change happen, but it's certainly possible.
00:35:54.052 --> 00:36:05.062
It's a lot easier if you're starting from zero and, and, and designing it from, from nothing as opposed to re- re-engineering what you have, but it is absolutely possible.
00:36:05.062 --> 00:36:05.842
I agree with you.
00:36:05.852 --> 00:36:06.592
Um- Yeah.
00:36:06.782 --> 00:36:08.242
Mike Huguelet: Can I give you one more example of that?
00:36:08.472 --> 00:36:08.702
Mike Caldwell: You bet.
00:36:08.702 --> 00:36:24.094
Mike Huguelet: Um, so, um- again in the charter in, in Noble in Chicago, um, when, when the principals wanted to add a district, like a district or network level position, um, and I did this while I was there.
00:36:24.114 --> 00:36:31.394
I, I, um, proposed two new, um, positions for the college, um, planning team at, in the network.
00:36:31.654 --> 00:36:49.574
Um, you had to come present like a, a, a huge presentation with all sorts of data and there was about, I think, like 18 people that had to approve all in one room, and
they all had to say, "This is gonna be worth the money that we are taking out of the classroom." 'Cause if we add this position, it's probably never going away, right?
00:36:49.984 --> 00:37:02.574
Um, and that's what happens in so many districts is that you add a position here, then you, that person needs a manager, and that
person needs a secretary, and all of a sudden you have all these positions and all that money is coming out of the classroom, right?
00:37:02.574 --> 00:37:04.614
'Cause those are people that work at the central office.
00:37:04.984 --> 00:37:16.314
So, um, when I was in Des Moines Public Schools, there were 16 curriculum directors, one for health, one for PE, one for art, one for elementary math, one for secondary math, right?
00:37:16.734 --> 00:37:30.994
And they were all great teachers that got promoted to become the curriculum director and, um, and they, their job was to write, essentially write lesson plans for, for the, the, the teachers in every subject in every level, right?
00:37:31.344 --> 00:37:37.630
Um, and, um But they, there was this huge disconnect from the classroom, right?
00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:40.520
And those positions don't exist anymore.
00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:54.940
They, as, as enrollment's gone down, they had to find ways of like, "Hey, we need to put this money back into the classroom." And, um, so the…
So that's my point is like they're just, there, there's always a way to reorganize, and especially the easiest one is actually with your staffing.
00:37:54.950 --> 00:37:54.970
Yeah.
00:37:55.310 --> 00:38:00.330
'Cause big expensive buildings, it's hard to, to, harder to shuffle that deck.
00:38:00.700 --> 00:38:10.120
Um, but that, that, those real important questions, and I see that most, um, most districts just really struggle with that essential question.
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:16.490
And there's a lot of like, "Hey, this person's been here. They're nice." So they, you know, um- Yeah, sure.
00:38:16.490 --> 00:38:19.740
In my daughter's district, the middle school principal, he was very ineffective.
00:38:20.130 --> 00:38:24.850
Um, and they, um, moved him and created a new position.
00:38:25.030 --> 00:38:27.310
He now manages the principals in the district.
00:38:27.810 --> 00:38:30.530
But he was not a good principal when she was in school there, right?
00:38:30.600 --> 00:38:36.310
Um, but he's a nice guy, so the superintendent, you know, created a position for him, and here we go.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:42.420
Now we have another, you know, position that has no dollars affecting the classroom in any tangible way.
00:38:42.710 --> 00:38:46.590
Um, and they can get away with it 'cause they're not having enrollment problems, right?
00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:53.940
When you h- when you, when your enrollment, um, is hit, then all of a sudden, um, these positions really come into question of like, wait a second.
00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:59.660
Um, you know, we, we should be asking every year what's the best way to serve our kids?
00:38:59.660 --> 00:39:05.960
And, and charters are h- are forced to do that in a, in a, a way that, you know, whether it's fair or not is, is another story.
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:07.410
But it, they are asked to do that.
00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:08.010
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:39:08.150 --> 00:39:08.450
Yeah.
00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:17.610
Yeah, I think both are, are great examples kind of rethinking kind of facility use and, and structure as well as human resources and how you're using them.
00:39:17.610 --> 00:39:30.410
And I, I like that, uh A litmus test of every position you add is more money taken out of the classroom, and so make being really conscientious about, um, you know, where you're putting your resources makes sense.
00:39:31.080 --> 00:39:43.340
Um, we're kind of coming to an end here, but I, I'm curious, you know, the schools that you have that, that are opened in, in Iowa, any, any one school that jumps out that you wanna talk about?
00:39:43.350 --> 00:39:48.860
Kind of anything that's really interesting or innovative or- Sure … or anything like that that you'd like to share?
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:50.260
Mike Huguelet: Yeah, I will.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.240
Um, so there's a, a, a trades, uh, school called Great Oaks High School.
00:39:55.740 --> 00:39:57.650
Um, one campus in Des Moines.
00:39:57.730 --> 00:40:02.930
They're opening a second campus this year in a town called Davenport, and their third campus is already approved.
00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:10.970
Um, credit recovery school, so their, their, um, target, uh, student is an opportunity youth who's left a, uh, dropped out.
00:40:11.020 --> 00:40:12.300
They've left the school system, right?
00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:15.280
Um, so they just have a really interesting model.
00:40:15.330 --> 00:40:19.790
Um, they're supported by a parent organization called Oakmont Education in Ohio.
00:40:20.290 --> 00:40:23.910
They run 20-plus of these credit recovery schools all across Ohio.
00:40:23.910 --> 00:40:29.350
And essentially their, their model is very simple, but, um, but effective, right?
00:40:29.350 --> 00:40:36.190
So s- the- these are students who weren't really into school in their fir- for whatever reason, their first run at it.
00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:39.890
Um, so you, you can't really run that same playbook back.
00:40:39.990 --> 00:40:41.240
You gotta do it differently.
00:40:41.260 --> 00:40:47.900
So they, they… To make a long story short, um, the students have, um, one week where they're working on their diploma.
00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:55.390
It's all core classes, math, science, English, reading, um, all those things, um, to get the same diploma anybody else gets in the state of Iowa.
00:40:55.600 --> 00:40:57.870
And then the second week is workforce.
00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:01.560
So the students are in either manufacturing, construction, or healthcare.
00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:13.230
Um, and, um, for most of those students, they have a grant that, um, pays them a- as an apprentice in, uh, in those areas, and they…
00:41:13.300 --> 00:41:23.796
So the construction kids are on, on, on the work site do- building a house with Habitat for Humanity They get to do all of the trades except for plumbing, electrical, and c- uh, concrete.
00:41:23.826 --> 00:41:25.746
Those are things you don't wanna be- have messed up.
00:41:26.196 --> 00:41:28.916
Um, so they get to watch the, the contractors do that.
00:41:28.926 --> 00:41:38.816
So they, um… But, um, you know, when they get their diploma, they've-- they have a ton of, of job, like on-the-job training and experience.
00:41:39.166 --> 00:41:51.206
Um, and then with this grant, they, they actually, um, are on the job for a few months, so their, the employer, um, gets to kick the tires on the student and see what are, are they-- what's their work ethic?
00:41:51.526 --> 00:41:53.396
Um, what's their skill level, right?
00:41:53.736 --> 00:42:00.466
Um, and the hope is, is that they walk right into a job in that, with that, um, contractor or with that hospital or manufacturer.
00:42:00.796 --> 00:42:11.546
Um, that doesn't always work out, but, um, their job placement rates are, are, um, you know, ninety-plus percent in Ohio for all the kids that are in this particular, um, workforce programming.
00:42:11.926 --> 00:42:14.036
Um, so I think it's just innovative.
00:42:14.086 --> 00:42:17.046
Um, it, it really, um, goes a long ways.
00:42:17.066 --> 00:42:25.356
It fills a niche, um, that the traditional public school system can work with, so it's not intended to be a competitor.
00:42:25.356 --> 00:42:30.406
But counselors, when a kid comes and says, "Hey, I'm having a, having a baby, I need to leave," right?
00:42:30.406 --> 00:42:37.826
"I need a, uh, a more flexible schedule than this high-- traditional high school can allow," they can say, "Well, hey, go to, go to Great Oaks," right?
00:42:37.826 --> 00:42:38.736
"Don't drop out.
00:42:39.096 --> 00:42:40.686
Um, they have flexible scheduling.
00:42:40.696 --> 00:42:42.096
You wanna be a nurse anyways.
00:42:42.096 --> 00:42:51.786
They have a healthcare program." Um, so I just think that that's the- Love that … that's the spirit of what American school system should be K-12.
00:42:52.106 --> 00:42:55.956
Um, but it is happening here in, uh, in, in that space.
00:42:56.246 --> 00:43:02.236
Um, I, I will say that the relationship with the traditional public schools is still not the-- where it should be.
00:43:02.626 --> 00:43:05.426
Um, but I do believe we'll get there.
00:43:05.436 --> 00:43:06.156
I'm not naive.
00:43:06.156 --> 00:43:15.060
I think as they see, like this school doesn't want your kids that are in AP They can't, they can't deny those kids 'cause it's a public s- charter school.
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:30.150
So if you feed us the students that are leaving, um, then we can fill those spots, and they're n- not there for the kid who just, you
know, um, got in a fight with, with, uh, their boyfriend and wants to, you know, get out, get it out of there for a minute, right?
00:43:30.460 --> 00:43:33.220
Um, th- there shouldn't be friendly fire there.
00:43:33.230 --> 00:43:37.600
But, um, it's there to serve the kids who, who need an alternative setting, so.
00:43:37.730 --> 00:43:37.960
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:38.490
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:39.320
Mike Caldwell: I lo- love that.
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:40.650
Would love to learn more about that.
00:43:40.750 --> 00:43:50.840
Um, yeah, just seems similar to maybe one of the… I'm thinking of one of the Elevate academies here in Idaho that are really focused on a similar population.
00:43:51.130 --> 00:44:00.810
Similar, similar kind of a- approach with CTE or c- you know, um, in, in terms of workforce development and, and things like that, but maybe done in a different way.
00:44:00.810 --> 00:44:10.120
But it sounds like what you're saying is they're kind of in their core one week, and then in industry the sec- the, an alternate week, and so they go back and forth between the two.
00:44:10.380 --> 00:44:14.390
And my assumption is you d- you don't, you don't have an empty building for a week.
00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:19.500
You have half the students i- at, at, at, at any one time for- Correct … for core.
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:20.030
Which lowers,
00:44:20.700 --> 00:44:27.470
Mike Huguelet: yeah, which lowers facilities costs 'cause you, you actually are never intending to have the full school in the building at the same time.
00:44:27.900 --> 00:44:28.110
Yeah.
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:31.620
Um, you know, you do graduation, and you, you rent out another space, right?
00:44:31.620 --> 00:44:35.530
So, um, it, it, it is brilliant in its simplicity.
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:44.650
Um, and, uh, to my earlier point, though, like that, th- a traditional public school can organize theirs- themselves in, in a, in a different way.
00:44:44.930 --> 00:44:47.500
Um, maybe not as flexible in the scheduling.
00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:56.630
Um, but, um, but they, there, there are have been good trade and vocational schools in public districts all across the country historically.
00:44:57.080 --> 00:45:06.150
Many of them have gone away, you know, starting in the '80s and '90s when college prep, you know, and four-way, four, four-year school became the soup du jour, right?
00:45:06.210 --> 00:45:06.900
Um- Yeah
00:45:07.110 --> 00:45:16.260
and I think that's, you know, there's been a real loss, um, to, to those students, um, that really prefer that type of career.
00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:20.390
Um, and, you know, need the work-based learning.
00:45:20.390 --> 00:45:23.650
They want it, and, uh, but they're, the shift is coming back.
00:45:24.020 --> 00:45:25.940
Um, there's no doubt that that's coming back.
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:27.800
But, um, but that's an example, right?
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:29.130
Great Oaks is an example of that.
00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:32.620
And, um, you know, so we're trying to do that all across the state.
00:45:32.620 --> 00:45:34.630
We're, we're opening one campus at a time.
00:45:34.950 --> 00:45:44.780
Um, but in all of our, um, you know, there's 4,000 opportunity youth that have dropped out of high school in our state, uh, at least, um, that could still earn a diploma that, that I know of.
00:45:44.810 --> 00:45:51.610
And, um, but they don't really have an opportunity unless some- somebody sets up a new, a new pathway for them really.
00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:52.460
Mike Caldwell: I love that.
00:45:52.620 --> 00:45:52.950
Yeah.
00:45:52.950 --> 00:45:53.150
Yeah.
00:45:53.150 --> 00:45:53.930
That's really cool.
00:45:54.010 --> 00:45:54.200
Yeah.
00:45:54.230 --> 00:45:55.060
Thanks for sharing that.
00:45:55.160 --> 00:46:02.332
Um- Well, Mike, anything else that maybe I, I haven't asked, anything that's on your mind that you'd love to share that, uh, we didn't get to?
00:46:03.642 --> 00:46:03.792
Mike Huguelet: No.
00:46:03.832 --> 00:46:09.562
I appreciate the, the interest in, in the State of Iowa and our, our new public charter movement.
00:46:09.982 --> 00:46:22.752
Um, you know, I think this, this is the type of, uh, idea sharing back and forth that, um, that really we need in America as we continue to, to improve our, our system all across- in every state all across the country.
00:46:22.752 --> 00:46:27.192
So, um, you know, I don't think anybody has the, the, the answer, right?
00:46:27.192 --> 00:46:35.092
We, we, we really have to work together and, um, you know, I've just have been, been very lucky and grateful to all the people I've been learning from.
00:46:35.092 --> 00:46:42.472
And, um, like, uh, you know, Terry i- in Idaho running Bloom, um, has been very helpful in, in so many ways.
00:46:42.522 --> 00:46:47.432
Um, so grateful for the time and the conversation, Mike, and appreciate, uh, you know, what you do.
00:46:48.002 --> 00:46:48.312
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
00:46:48.342 --> 00:46:49.012
Absolutely.
00:46:49.012 --> 00:46:49.542
And thank you.
00:46:49.542 --> 00:46:52.292
And we always ask the last question of the, of the podcast.
00:46:52.292 --> 00:46:53.382
I'm curious on your answer.
00:46:53.382 --> 00:46:57.882
What does it mean to you to be a transformative principal or transformative leader?
00:46:57.992 --> 00:46:58.602
You choose.
00:46:59.862 --> 00:47:00.492
Mike Huguelet: Oh, man.
00:47:00.502 --> 00:47:03.732
That's a, that's a loaded, but, but good question.
00:47:04.372 --> 00:47:08.862
Um, I'm a, a, a data guy, right?
00:47:08.872 --> 00:47:37.092
So, um, so I would say, uh, to give a, um, specific but yet broad answer still, um, if you're a, a transformative leader, um, you're f- you're focused on the data points that are most important to your community, and those
data points are gonna be- are gonna transform and go in the right direction, whether that's, uh, you know, you're, uh, a school principal or superintendent, um, you know, and you're, you're working on attendance, right?
00:47:37.092 --> 00:47:42.112
So district I worked in, two-thirds of the students were chronically absent, right?
00:47:42.142 --> 00:47:45.512
Well, that's a data point you should be able to transform, right?
00:47:45.522 --> 00:47:45.772
Mm-hmm.
00:47:46.132 --> 00:47:47.452
I'm not saying that's easy.
00:47:47.862 --> 00:47:53.522
Um, uh, but it, but it, it is something that you would take a, you know, make a target.
00:47:54.112 --> 00:47:54.722
Uh, ELL, right?
00:47:54.752 --> 00:47:58.122
There's some communities that have a very high refugee pop- population.
00:47:58.472 --> 00:48:05.872
Uh, I grew up in, in, in the Miami area, high, um, you know, immigrant population from, from all over, um, the Caribbean and South America.
00:48:06.272 --> 00:48:14.942
Um, you know, so maybe your ELL is, is, is what you're, you're targeting, to have the best ELL program and accelerate students' language acquisition, right?
00:48:15.262 --> 00:48:26.392
Um, but really, uh, dive into what's most, um, needed and most, uh, the highest level of impact in your school community and transform in that direction, is what I would say.
00:48:27.112 --> 00:48:27.352
Mike Caldwell: Yep.
00:48:27.422 --> 00:48:28.212
Absolutely.
00:48:28.712 --> 00:48:29.782
Um, love it.
00:48:29.842 --> 00:48:30.242
Perfect.
00:48:30.242 --> 00:48:32.462
Thank you, Mike, again for being part of this.
00:48:32.462 --> 00:48:43.032
Good luck as you, uh, embark on new, you know, this… Continue this adventure, but also embark on opening new schools in Iowa and, um, all the things that come with that.
00:48:43.042 --> 00:48:46.972
So thanks again for the work that you do, and, uh, appreciate you being on the podcast today.
00:48:47.562 --> 00:48:47.862
Mike Huguelet: Yeah.
00:48:48.052 --> 00:48:48.362
Thanks a lot.
00:48:48.362 --> 00:48:48.962
Appreciate it, Mike
