Trudy: Well, welcome to the Trailblazing Schools podcast. Paul McGregor. It's great to have you join me this morning.
Paul: Hello, hello, hello, Trudy and everybody listening. So good to be with you.
Trudy: And I say this ⁓ y this is gonna be great. And I say this morning, ⁓ it's morning my part of the world, but it's probably more towards lunch at your part, right?
Paul: Yeah, don't remind me, I'm getting hungry.
Trudy: ⁓ So hey, let's let's introduce you, Paul. and I'm going to let the cat out of the bag right at the front. Paul's actually the author ⁓ of a favorite book of mine, The Question Effect. ⁓ he's a leadership advisor and facilitator ⁓ and ⁓ New So Paul, this is gonna be an awesome conversation. ⁓
Paul: Yeah, it is. I've just been over in Australia soaking up some of your goodness. So yeah, it's nice to have a conversation.
Trudy: and I just asked Paul before I hit record whether he played along and given AI the prompt to do the intro. ⁓ And well Paul's
Paul: And I sort of did. did truly. So I popped it into my AI of choice. ⁓ I haven't been using AI nearly as much this year as last year. And the answer it gave me ⁓ some bile in my throat. And I thought, ⁓ just can't read that. ⁓ So in New Zealand, when we introduce ourselves. ⁓ if we're being respectful to Tia Maori, we do so with a pepiha, which is explaining what are the places that are important to us. And when we do that, we get this really the this lovely buzz can happen in a room where someone at the back goes, ⁓ yeah, I'm from there and I know that person and we're making connections that way. My AI knows none of that stuff. ⁓ it also didn't know that I managed an adult education center. for a couple of years. So I looked at what it said and I went, that's not the right introduction for the people listening.
Trudy: Okay. So let's get the Paul McGregor version then.
Paul: ⁓ no now I'm thinking I really should have prepared the right one. ⁓ so my pepia i tipuo e i tipuwakio irarue te maru te monga o auraki, which means I grew up under the shadow of Mount Cook, the tallest mountain in New Zealand. ⁓
Trudy: Ha ha.
Paul: River water of the Waimakari River. Nor Oto Tahi Aho, Nine Enohuana Aho Ki Fakatu. I was born and raised in Christchurch, which is sort of halfway up the South Island of New Zealand. And we used to go on family holidays to Kaiteri Teri, this beautiful beach, even better than your Ozzy beaches. And ⁓ my wife grew up around there, and so when we got together, I sort of said, ⁓ maybe we could move to Nelson. ⁓ and we've got this beautiful five minute lifestyle where everything you need is just five minutes away. So that's my very brief pepih. and my name is Paul McGregor. ⁓ the McGregor comes back to my Scottish roots, but ⁓ my family's been in New Zealand for about three or four generations now. So AI doesn't know any of that stuff, and I don't really want it to, to be honest.
Trudy: Wow. And I'm glad we had the Paul McGregor version and not the AI version. That's amazing. Yeah. And ⁓ d just as you spoke to some of that, I have actually visited the South Island. So I had this picture and experience of Christchurch. I also feel like it's the Christchurch now is not the same as the Christ church when I visited, 'cause it's yeah, been through
Paul: No. It's very different. Yeah, I go back there for holidays and don't recognize it after I mean I was there during the earthquakes. That was university time for me. That was a weird time. ⁓ my flatmate was Sam Johnson and he founded something called the Student Volunteer Army, which was basically just trying to mobilize all of the students to go out and help, you know, dig silt in people's backyards or put a fence back up or whatever it might have been. It became this huge thing and it's now in 200 odd schools in both New Zealand and Australia and s eight universities, something like that. So it was a a really interesting university experience that you couldn't have scripted. And the stuff that I learned and took from that is probably a lot more valuable than had it just been an ordinary old university experience.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah, these ⁓ life experiences, right, that really shape us. And ⁓ yeah. So I'm curious then, 'cause the next prompt usually is around as a guest on a podcast about trailblazing and leading into uncharted territory, what's the core message that you'd want to leave listeners with? And I'm I'm kind of curious around what you'd say in that space.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Mm. This this took me on a little bit of an interesting research journey, actually, because that word trailblazing, I was wondering why has Trudy chosen that word? So I looked up where it came from, and my assumption was it was something to do with literally burning a trail through a forest. I thought maybe it had something to do with fire breaks. But that's not where it comes from at all. So it came from ⁓ hikers through a forest.
Trudy: Yeah.
Paul: To mark trails, they would cut a little bit of the bark off a wood, ⁓ off a tree. And when you cut that off, then the tree underneath would be the white compared to the darkness of the bark, and that would help to show the trail. And those little things were called blazers. So you're putting blazers on the trees. And I'd never heard of that before. And in terms of the work that I do and the core message that I'm wanna leave your listeners is to go deeper underneath the surface. And don't just take that first meaning or that first assumption that you have about what's going on for your staff, for your students, for your parents, for the ministry, but actually have the courage to ask questions and look under the surface to see what the real meaning might be. And when we do that, we're able to make So much more progress, so much faster, because we're working on the right stuff.
Trudy: Yeah. And that ⁓ of what I know about you, Paul, that just rings so true because and ⁓ it does not surprise me at all that you wrote a book about leading with questions, the question effect. ⁓ 'cause it's it's your gift. You are amazing at asking questions. and even before we started the show you were asking great questions. ⁓ it's almost like we should reverse roles. You should be the host and anyway.
Paul: Yeah.
Trudy: so I'd I'd love to know ⁓ in all of your and you hinted on some of in with the intro, but what have you noticed ⁓ in leaders made you feel like something needed to change and you could ⁓ this? ⁓
Paul: ⁓ it I'll go right back to my own first experience as a leader because I was the one who needed to change. ⁓ my first proper leadership role and management role was at the education center I mentioned earlier. So we were like a second-chance school for adults. We were a branch of literacy Alti Aurora and had about 20 odd tutors. I started as the business development manager trying to basically get more business ⁓ clients ⁓ and then became the manager for a little while and I was totally in over my head and really struggling with things. ⁓ I was stressed, I was working way too hard, I was bringing the work home, moaning and groaning to my wife, and not really enjoying it. And I'd sort of been working up Towards this leadership role, and then I was in it and just going, ⁓ geez, this kind of sucks. And is this it? So that was kind of the start of a journey for me, trying to figure out how do I make an impact as a leader, but without burning myself out in the process.
Trudy: Where did you land?
Paul: I mean, I'm still figuring it out, to be honest. And I think anybody who rocks up on a show like this and tells you that they've got it all figured out is either very stupid or very naive or trying to sell you something. Or potentially all three. ⁓ but I ⁓ a really important moment for me was chatting with a mentor. ⁓ his name is Tom Watkins and he'd written a couple of books and we'd sort of I don't know, just developed this informal mentoring relationship. We sat down over a cup of coffee and I was just bitching and moaning and ranting and raving about how unfair it was and how impossible the demands were and was unfair what the ministry was requiring and our staff weren't getting along and they were clashing and we weren't getting the number of learners and so we weren't meeting our financial goals. Like nothing was really going to plan. And he just asked me these questions and Patiently drew the story out of me. Then he looked at me and I can't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect of, okay, Paul, it sounds like you've got a lesson to learn. Do you want to learn it in this role or do you want to learn it the next time this happens? And I I I probably didn't have the reaction that you had. I was I was a bit pissed off to be honest. Cause it it was a delightfully honest mirror that he was holding up to me and I didn't really like what I was seeing. ⁓ but that question really stuck with me. I'd gone into that meeting really just wanting him to validate my decision to quit, because I was I was trying to decide, yeah, should I quit? Should I quit? ⁓ and I left with this renewed enthusiasm to just keep on giving it a go. And yeah, he he and I worked together for a little while. That relationship was instrumental in me figuring out a way that was just a lot less stressful, but also more impactful for the people that I was trying to lead.
Trudy: Yeah, wow. It ⁓ it just reminded me too, and I I've often shared this with leaders, school principals, that it's when you're in those really challenging situations where your greatest leadership growth occurs, right? You can't you can't see it at the time and you s you certainly don't want to be told it, but you come out the other end and you go, ⁓ okay.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ No. Yeah.
Trudy: I've actually just built my capability. I you know, next time I face something like this, you don't actually think this, but it's what happens, you know, you you have a bit more confidence in dealing with the really tough stuff because you've been there before, right? It's it's that life experience that it shapes you. Yeah.
Paul: How long do you find it takes you to see the brighter side of it? 'Cause I don't know about you, but for me it's it's sometimes it's months or years. It is yeah, okay.
Trudy: ⁓ yeah. Years. Years, right? A and it I think too it comes from wisdom. ⁓ from the ex from those experiences and you get to a point where you go, I don't need to stress about this, I've done it before and I I've managed it previously so I can do it again. Yeah, but I also s working with other school leaders and, you know, they are really s working through some really challenging ⁓ situations that is pushing them to their limits in every way.
Paul: Yeah. Mm.
Trudy: And it's yeah, just kinda in in how do you help them see that this is this is growth. It's in that challenge that the growth comes. ⁓ which is what your amazing mentor pointed out, probably way better than what I do, 'cause they came at it with a question for you rather than just telling you, right? and that's probably the lesson too, right? Questions. Ask get curious, ask questions.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. His skill that I really picked up from him was he was so good at asking these questions and then just stay silent for uncomfortable lengths of time. You'd give him this answer and most people would then go, Okay, great, I'm on to the next question. He would just smile and nod. And then there was this awkward pause. And then in my head I'd be going, ⁓ I I obviously haven't I I need to go deeper. Okay. ⁓ damn it. And then I'd say something else and he'd just smile and nod a little bit more. It was so different to any communication style that I'd ever encountered before. And so frustratingly effective.
Trudy: Yeah. It's ⁓ That awkward silence, and you rush in to fill it.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: So I'd love to hear what's
Paul: In the back of my head, Trudy, I'm thinking, how long is this silence gonna go on for in the podcast now? Are we gonna out silence each other?
Trudy: Ha ha no. No. No. ⁓ but I'd love to explore the core idea at the heart of your work. How would you f sh shape it up?
Paul: If we want better outcomes, we have to ask better questions. It's not just asking surface level questions as well. I I had a coaching client recently and she said, ⁓ I've been trying to ask more questions, but everybody's just getting annoyed with me. We looked at the kind of questions she were ⁓ was asking. They were really just drawing up facts. And that's fine. But for the people who are responding, they already know the facts. So they don't feel like they're learning anything new by giving a summary of what's going on. So We're trying to get to a deeper level of questioning so we can get to a deeper level of understanding. And we just keep digging because it's really easy to address the surface level stuff. I mean, for your principles that you're working with, Trudy, there is way too much for them to do in their workday. They can never get it all done, and they can never please everybody. Because if you please staff, then you might piss off the parents and if you piss off the parents, well maybe the kids will be happy, but like it's just no one's ever gonna be fully satisfied. So we can't get it all done. We have to keep digging under the surface to figure out what's the stuff that we really, really need to do that's really going to make the biggest difference. And it's only by asking those deeper questions that we can figure that out.
Trudy: Yeah. Which takes me I'm gonna go back to to your book 'cause of course I've read it and I loved it. And no surprise I've now bought it for a whole lot of principles that I work with well.
Paul: What did you love about it?
Trudy: The sim don't take it the wrong way, but the simplicity, of course. ⁓ it's it's very practical and principals love practical. I also suspect that they will love it because they want to ask better questions. They want to be better leaders, but coming at it from ⁓ a coaching.
Paul: Mm. Mm.
Trudy: frame and I think your book helps shape up how we think about our work and how we might ask those questions that are going to elicit, as you said, deeper responses, more thoughtful. And purposeful.
Paul: Yeah. Hmm. It's interesting to hear you say, Trudy, that teachers want to ask better questions because I I had this assumption, so I studied law, and in law you're basically trained to argue and reason and trained that your value comes from having the answers. And to a certain extent, teaching is part of that as well. You're meant to show up and kind of have this lesson plan and things figured out. You're also guiding people through a learning experience and there's an element of we'll figure this out together. But sometimes those skills that we learn through our professional degrees actually are not helpful once we get into a leadership role. Because if we have to be the one who always has the answers, always has everything figured out, is exhausting and unrealistic.
Trudy: Yeah. Now I've never thought about this before before, so thank you. I was just thinking about my teacher training and there was a whole I don't know, unit, ⁓ or component of a subject around questioning as a teaching technique, right? There's they actually taught us that. I remember wait time, that's that pause after you've asked the question, like you just said with your mentor, and using that in the classroom as a teaching technique, you know, and eliciting responses.
Paul: Mm. Huh. Nice. Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Trudy: open questions, closed questions, all of that. The interesting thing is then, as you just beautifully highlighted, we move into leadership, ⁓ and often we end up in a leadership role because we have that technical skill in the profession. But leadership is a different skill set. And what you just described too around leaders and the having to have all the answers, and I've noticed this in my work with leaders over the last, ⁓ I was gonna say a few years, but
Paul: Nice.
Trudy: It's more than a decade now. is that they when someone brings them a challenge or an issue, they have a default response to solving that and often it is just giving an answer. It is, you know, or or I talk about ending up with the monkey on their back. You know, they they end up with the the problem or the challenge and have to solve it, rather than leaving it with the person who's brought it to them. And and this is where
Paul: Mm. Mm, yeah. Yeah.
Trudy: asking good questions comes into play and I think about it as ⁓ coaching. ⁓ you know, asking good coaching questions that gets you to a solution but is not actually around what you direct as the leader.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well what do you think is it that would stop principals from taking that kind of approach?
Trudy: ⁓ it's just being aware of our default responses, I think. It's just that self awareness is a big part in it. Absolutely. What do you think?
Paul: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm. ⁓ I think sometimes we worry that we might look stupid as well. ⁓ we fear this judgment if we don't know what to do. We worry that we might be seen as too vulnerable or or weak even. I think all those little feels fears play out in the back of our mind and they can stop us from putting our curiosity to work. Mm.
Trudy: think too, you mentioned before about the workload and there's also probably a misconception around efficiency, so if I just give you the answer it'll get it done quickly. But in actual fact that's not that's a s kind of at the surface level and may not
Paul: Yeah.
Trudy: give you the full solution or be appropriate in terms of building that other person's capability as well. Yeah.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Trudy: But I was ⁓ going dig ⁓ back into the book because you said around ⁓ you know, the power of questions and going deeper and getting to ⁓ you know, what's important. And I I loved and ⁓ just one if you don't mind. The vision question. I just wanna pull that out. and your vision question is what would a good ancestor do?
Paul: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The story behind that one came locally and is a great connection back to Tal Māori, the wisdom of Māori people. There was this big process, it was kind of in and around COVID in our region to try and get some clarity on where are we going as a whole region. And we're pretty disjointed because there's a big hill in the middle, and so people don't sort of talk across the hill very much. And there was this gathering of different leaders from government, from ⁓ education. ⁓ young people, old older people, like it was it was really diverse mix. ⁓ lots of council people as well. And the conversation had kind of got to the point of which road should we build next? It was sort of at that level. And you know, that's kind of important. It'd be good to know that. ⁓ and one of the facilitators stood up and she sort of goes, I think this is that's a great conversation to be having, but it's not the conversation we need to have right now, we need to be looking much longer into the future and asking ourselves, what kind of ancestors do we want to be? It was quite an unfamiliar way of thinking and quite an unusual question for most of the people in that room. Because I mean it's the same in in a school, right? You're you might think a year ahead. You're definitely you're thinking term by term, or week by week, or even just day by day, but to be challenged to think generations ahead is just it's not something we do very often. But that's what that question is asking us to do is to think of the next generations and to realise that we are the ancestors of a whole lot of people who haven't yet been born. What is the legacy we want to pass down to them when they are looking back at us as ancestors? What do we want them to say about us? It's a challenging question and sends our brain and the kind of conversations we have down a totally different set of paths. And it certainly set that process down a really different path as well.
Trudy: Exactly. And and what occur you've just hit on it. ⁓ I've done lots of work over the years in the schools that I led, visioning work and, you know, strategic planning and the like. But I'd never thought about it in terms of the next generation. Well, let me change that. I've often thought in how as an educator we impact the next generation.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: But I've never thought about it in the terms of the next generation of learners coming through our schools in the sense of we've got these kids here with us now, but in a couple of cycles, we're actually gonna have their children and then their grandchildren. And as, you know, ⁓ an educator now closer to sixty than fifty, that that and ⁓ there's many people listening who've had this experience where you're not you you're on
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Trudy: teaching the second generation and the third generation, you know, that's ⁓ you're aware of that. But in terms of a vision in question, I've never thought about it with that frame and I just love it. And I think about what thinking and ideas and priorities would come about with a group of educators with that question. It's exciting.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a totally different frame of reference. ⁓
Trudy: Yeah. And and you see schools celebrating, you know, their well, in my area now I'm seeing them with their hundred and fiftieth and they celebrate how many generations of families have been at that school. And so when you think about, okay, l you know, when we're planning the vision of our school and the fut next, you know, the future work we're going to do, how would that be shaped like if we think about not just these children but the children of these children?
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: you know, who potentially will be in this area and still coming to this school twenty years from now. It's amazing. It's a great question. I love it.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or to use whatever that anniversary is, if it's a hundred and fifty years, and to go, great, we're we're not just celebrating the last hundred and fifty. We're imagining what the next hundred and fifty could be. 'Cause that's probably ⁓ four or five generations. There's quite a few. Yeah.
Trudy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And what what does that look like? And it doesn't it? You get past the well, we're not asking which roads, but you know, you get past the surface level stuff and you really do get to the core of what's important, right? Yeah.
Paul: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're not asking about roads, it might be an argument about where the school camp is happening this year. That's that's absolutely blown up at ⁓ my wife's school last year. She's a primary school teacher.
Trudy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get caught up in some ⁓ debates around things that yeah, really aren't important in the big scheme of things, right? Yeah. So, Paul, how do you see this idea playing out in day to day work of leaders?
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ in so many ways. I mean just imagine, right, you you rock up at the school gate at eight o'clock, whatever it is, and you bump into someone in the playground, ⁓ maybe it's a parent dropping their kid off early and and they've got some complaint to make and what if your default response was to kind of to to coach and guide that parent to coming up with a solution on their own. And I reckon you probably leave that conversation with way less work to do. Because either that parent would have figured out that it's not really a problem, this thing that they thought was a really big problem. Or you've guided them to figuring out a solution for themselves. And so it might have taken you a little bit longer. You might get to your office at ten past eight, because it took you ten minutes that conversation. But you've got no more work to do on that problem. It's gone away. Like that that's the dream, right? And it doesn't always happen like that. ⁓ and then I don't know, maybe maybe then after school you've got your staff meeting, and you don't have to prep nearly as much stuff. My my wife being a school teacher, I hear a lot of stories about how school's going. And one of her constant complaints amongst A whole lot of really good principles that she has is my gosh, our staff meetings are so boring and they're so long, and I just sit there and I don't really say very much. And she's a really smart, capable human who's got so much to give and and contribute, and she does. And I just think, okay, what's going on there? And I suspect I could be wrong, because I'm not in those meetings, but I've seen other people run other meetings where The leader is taking up so much space and airtime that there's no chance for anyone else to contribute. So I think if we apply this idea to a meeting, then it means great. You don't have to prepare nearly as much stuff. You can prepare some questions and create an environment where your talented staff are f figuring stuff out and solving it for themselves. So for the people li who are listening to this podcast who I know are really busy and just got tons on. I see this as a way to reduce their workload, to reduce their stress and in the process to create better outcomes along the way.
Trudy: Yeah. I think you're ⁓ under something. So I'm curious as technology accelerates, what becomes more important for leaders?
Paul: In a word discernment, which is a a word I didn't hear until I was probably like twenty seven thirty years old. ⁓ and it was one of those words that I had to go and look it up in the dictionary and go, what on earth does that mean? And I s I take it to mean you're very careful and thoughtful about what you say yes to and what you say no to. With the promises of AI, I think it's really easy to actually end up saying yes to way more stuff because it's a lot easier to create. The friction of making stuff has disappeared. And in the sort of excitement or curiosity of that, we might then end up creating a whole lot of work for other people to consume. And so I think we need to be really careful around that. We also need to be really careful around which parts of ourselves we allow to be delegated to technology and which parts we don't. And that was why I didn't want to delegate my introduction to AI. I wanted to try and practice a little bit of what I preach around discernment with technology and go actually no, that's precious to me. That's for me to take, that's for me to keep.
Trudy: Yeah. Yeah. And I I think about and am aware of ⁓ the flip side I guess, you know, we one of the claims is, you know, being improved productivity. But on the flip side I am v greatly concerned about than the rising expectation that more will be achieved because you can. ⁓ and almost a compression of work. and and I parallel this with email, you know, twenty twenty years ago where we had all the promises around what email would provide us, you know, we would paperless offices and, you know, so much more free time. And I'm like, yeah, the exact opposite has happened, right? And we all, you know, it's a s
Paul: Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Trudy: trying to manage our inboxes and I can I can see the same on the horizon with AI that, you know, there will be expectations to produce more because you can do it so quickly. ⁓ so there's almost like y you I love your word discernment, but it's, you know, creating those boundaries around what you will and what you won't, ⁓ to protect yourself. ⁓ yeah.
Paul: Mm. Mm. I I don't know if you've found this trudy, but there are certain situations where AI has saved me a bundle of time. I then I just replace it with more work.
Trudy: That's yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, right? Yeah, yeah. So y yeah, the task that used to take ten hours you can now whip it out in an hour. What are you doing with the other nine? More work? Like you don't then down tools and, you know, go and read a good book. Or walk in nature. Yeah, you just do more, yeah.
Paul: Mm. Mm, mm. Mm, mm, mm, mm.
Trudy: Kind of the flip of it. Yeah. But hey back
Paul: So I of continuing on this theme, ⁓ what I'd be getting really interested in as a leader is what is the stuff I want to be spending the bulk of my time on. And unless we're clear on that, then ⁓ touching AI not gonna help. But if we know that actually as a principal, what I really wanna be doing is spending fifty percent of my time ⁓ supporting staff, alongside them. ⁓ 30% of my time connecting with parents, understanding the world, and ⁓ wow, I'm bad at maths. 20% of my time with students. Like if that's the stuff that really matters to you, then great. Now we can figure out how AI can help you with that. Rather than going, ⁓ AI, exciting, interesting. ⁓ I can make personalized posters. Great. Yeah, but does that help you to actually support your staff better? I don't know. Yeah.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah. And and get you to the core of what you want to do. Yeah, where you can have a real impact with with your skill set and your experience and passion. Yeah. Yeah. So Paul, if a leader's listening and wanted to take one small step aligned with your work, where would you suggest they start?
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. And I'd say get yourself someone who's in your corner, like a Trudy Graham, ⁓ can be the guide alongside you because I think we learn so much by having someone else ⁓ that role for us. ⁓ ⁓ a principal can be pretty lonely at times. ⁓ So that's where I'd say to start, find yourself someone who's in your corner. One hundred percent there for you. Not someone like your partner who, you know, we go home and we rant and we rave to them, but they've got other priorities. Someone who is just there for you.
Trudy: And what do you hope school leaders feel after engaging with your work?
Paul: I hope they feel lighter. Being a school leader, a a principal is pretty heavy stuff sometimes, with the increasing complexity of everything that's coming at you. So I hope that it leaves them with this kind of renewed vigour for the work they do, because damn it's important. It this work really matters. And the world needs principals who can show up feeling good, being curious, ⁓ able to Being a school leader, a a principal is pretty heavy stuff sometimes, with the increasing complexity of everything that's coming at you. So I hope that it leaves them with this kind of renewed vigour for the work they do, because damn it's important. It this work really matters. And the world needs principals who can show up feeling good, being curious, ⁓ able to make their school a better place and make their community a better place through their school. make their school a better place and make their community a better place through their school. so if they can be a bit lighter in that journey, then I feel like I've ⁓ I've made a good contribution.
Trudy: Yeah. And you do use the motto work that matters and ⁓ yeah, ⁓ absolutely it's work that matters. So your book, The Question Effect, Lead with Curiosity for Less Stress and More Impact, where might school leaders get in touch with you if they want to learn more about your work or get a get their hands on a copy of the book?
Paul: Mm. PaulMcGregor.co.nz. There's some free tools on there, a whole lot of useful things for leaders on the free tools page, I'd say start there. ⁓ yeah, a couple of things around how to ask better questions, how to put that into practice, a few things, ⁓ some tools around structuring your day, things like that which are kind of practical and useful. That's would be my suggestion.
Trudy: Great, thanks Paul. Now to wrap up, I have these ritual questions, three closing questions. No AI involved. No AI. So I would love to know what is the best kept secret about where you are?
Paul: ⁓ Phew. Ooh, there's this place called the Riwaka Resurgence, which is where now there's a big hill, mountain, and the water goes through the cracks in the mountain and gets purified over decades and then bubbles up out of the Riwaka Resurgence. It's the most magical, spiritual, beautiful place on earth and you gotta get yourself there to check it out.
Trudy: Wow, that sounds amazing.
Paul: Yeah, it's not in any of the guy books. No one really seems to know about it.
Trudy: Well, so it really is a secret.
Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I took your question literally.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah, actually that's a funny thing about Un New Zealand, you know, because in my travels too, I came out at this beach on the west coast that had all clearly people over time, rock stacks, just the whole length of this beach. It was no
Paul: Mm. Mm. ⁓ yeah. Do you not do that? We've got nothing else to do here in New Zealand, so we stack rocks. Right, okay, yeah, yeah. ⁓
Trudy: Well probably 'cause probably 'cause there's no rocks on our beaches like this particular beach. It was amazing. And also a storm had just passed, so the ⁓ the rocks were glistening with, you know, the w water on them. it also blew my mind 'cause I'm thinking when there's big surf, you know, those rock stacks would fall over, tumble. But here they were all built up. Well the thing is I went to find it.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: online, there wasn't a single reference to it. I mean, how can this not be a thing? Best kept secrets of New Zealand, so thanks, Paul. ⁓ okay, sorry, sidetracked there. What's a book or film you'd recommend and why does it matter to you?
Paul: Wonderful. I love so many books. This is a hard question, but I'll just throw one out there. The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. It is one of those very readable books about a serious topic. How do we meet? How do we gather? How do we decide? How do we make progress together in large groups? And I just think that's really relevant as a context for school leaders. And in so many ways, you know, from your school assemblies to your staff meetings to your ⁓ events that you have. And she just looks at ways to make them better in really simple, easy, memorable ways. Because, you know, y when you go to an event, Trudy, and it's you sit there and you find yourself on your phone more than you are engaging with the event and you leave going, Well, that's kind of a waste of time. ⁓ I think there's way too much of that in the world and this book helps to Turn that around.
Trudy: ⁓ thank you. I I will confess I have that book and I have not read it. So it's going on the pile. Thank you. Thank you. ⁓ and what's something that brings you comfort or joy at the end of a long week?
Paul: ⁓ You're nice. ⁓ high quality sheets. So I was MCing a conference last week and you know I I in one of the breaks said to someone, ⁓ what's been the highlight of the conference? I was at this the Novatel Airport hotel in Auckland and she said to me, ⁓ don't tell the organizers, but the sheets at this hotel are so nice and that's been the highlight.
Trudy: Okay.
Paul: And I totally agreed with her. ⁓ so getting into a nice bed with a book, ⁓ and just cuddling down for the night. Brilliant.
Trudy: Yeah. I love that. So honest. Thanks, Paul. That was unexpected, but you know, ask the question, get the answer. I love it. ⁓ thank you. It's been a great conversation. I knew it would be. Really appreciate you taking the time to chat.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, brilliant. Love the work you're doing, Trudy. ⁓ and I look forward actually to meeting some of your principals in one of your sessions later in the year.
Trudy: Yeah, it's gonna be great.
Paul: Hello, hello, hello, Trudy and everybody listening. So good to be with you.
Trudy: And I say this ⁓ y this is gonna be great. And I say this morning, ⁓ it's morning my part of the world, but it's probably more towards lunch at your part, right?
Paul: Yeah, don't remind me, I'm getting hungry.
Trudy: ⁓ So hey, let's let's introduce you, Paul. and I'm going to let the cat out of the bag right at the front. Paul's actually the author ⁓ of a favorite book of mine, The Question Effect. ⁓ he's a leadership advisor and facilitator ⁓ and ⁓ New So Paul, this is gonna be an awesome conversation. ⁓
Paul: Yeah, it is. I've just been over in Australia soaking up some of your goodness. So yeah, it's nice to have a conversation.
Trudy: and I just asked Paul before I hit record whether he played along and given AI the prompt to do the intro. ⁓ And well Paul's
Paul: And I sort of did. did truly. So I popped it into my AI of choice. ⁓ I haven't been using AI nearly as much this year as last year. And the answer it gave me ⁓ some bile in my throat. And I thought, ⁓ just can't read that. ⁓ So in New Zealand, when we introduce ourselves. ⁓ if we're being respectful to Tia Maori, we do so with a pepiha, which is explaining what are the places that are important to us. And when we do that, we get this really the this lovely buzz can happen in a room where someone at the back goes, ⁓ yeah, I'm from there and I know that person and we're making connections that way. My AI knows none of that stuff. ⁓ it also didn't know that I managed an adult education center. for a couple of years. So I looked at what it said and I went, that's not the right introduction for the people listening.
Trudy: Okay. So let's get the Paul McGregor version then.
Paul: ⁓ no now I'm thinking I really should have prepared the right one. ⁓ so my pepia i tipuo e i tipuwakio irarue te maru te monga o auraki, which means I grew up under the shadow of Mount Cook, the tallest mountain in New Zealand. ⁓
Trudy: Ha ha.
Paul: River water of the Waimakari River. Nor Oto Tahi Aho, Nine Enohuana Aho Ki Fakatu. I was born and raised in Christchurch, which is sort of halfway up the South Island of New Zealand. And we used to go on family holidays to Kaiteri Teri, this beautiful beach, even better than your Ozzy beaches. And ⁓ my wife grew up around there, and so when we got together, I sort of said, ⁓ maybe we could move to Nelson. ⁓ and we've got this beautiful five minute lifestyle where everything you need is just five minutes away. So that's my very brief pepih. and my name is Paul McGregor. ⁓ the McGregor comes back to my Scottish roots, but ⁓ my family's been in New Zealand for about three or four generations now. So AI doesn't know any of that stuff, and I don't really want it to, to be honest.
Trudy: Wow. And I'm glad we had the Paul McGregor version and not the AI version. That's amazing. Yeah. And ⁓ d just as you spoke to some of that, I have actually visited the South Island. So I had this picture and experience of Christchurch. I also feel like it's the Christchurch now is not the same as the Christ church when I visited, 'cause it's yeah, been through
Paul: No. It's very different. Yeah, I go back there for holidays and don't recognize it after I mean I was there during the earthquakes. That was university time for me. That was a weird time. ⁓ my flatmate was Sam Johnson and he founded something called the Student Volunteer Army, which was basically just trying to mobilize all of the students to go out and help, you know, dig silt in people's backyards or put a fence back up or whatever it might have been. It became this huge thing and it's now in 200 odd schools in both New Zealand and Australia and s eight universities, something like that. So it was a a really interesting university experience that you couldn't have scripted. And the stuff that I learned and took from that is probably a lot more valuable than had it just been an ordinary old university experience.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah, these ⁓ life experiences, right, that really shape us. And ⁓ yeah. So I'm curious then, 'cause the next prompt usually is around as a guest on a podcast about trailblazing and leading into uncharted territory, what's the core message that you'd want to leave listeners with? And I'm I'm kind of curious around what you'd say in that space.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Mm. This this took me on a little bit of an interesting research journey, actually, because that word trailblazing, I was wondering why has Trudy chosen that word? So I looked up where it came from, and my assumption was it was something to do with literally burning a trail through a forest. I thought maybe it had something to do with fire breaks. But that's not where it comes from at all. So it came from ⁓ hikers through a forest.
Trudy: Yeah.
Paul: To mark trails, they would cut a little bit of the bark off a wood, ⁓ off a tree. And when you cut that off, then the tree underneath would be the white compared to the darkness of the bark, and that would help to show the trail. And those little things were called blazers. So you're putting blazers on the trees. And I'd never heard of that before. And in terms of the work that I do and the core message that I'm wanna leave your listeners is to go deeper underneath the surface. And don't just take that first meaning or that first assumption that you have about what's going on for your staff, for your students, for your parents, for the ministry, but actually have the courage to ask questions and look under the surface to see what the real meaning might be. And when we do that, we're able to make So much more progress, so much faster, because we're working on the right stuff.
Trudy: Yeah. And that ⁓ of what I know about you, Paul, that just rings so true because and ⁓ it does not surprise me at all that you wrote a book about leading with questions, the question effect. ⁓ 'cause it's it's your gift. You are amazing at asking questions. and even before we started the show you were asking great questions. ⁓ it's almost like we should reverse roles. You should be the host and anyway.
Paul: Yeah.
Trudy: so I'd I'd love to know ⁓ in all of your and you hinted on some of in with the intro, but what have you noticed ⁓ in leaders made you feel like something needed to change and you could ⁓ this? ⁓
Paul: ⁓ it I'll go right back to my own first experience as a leader because I was the one who needed to change. ⁓ my first proper leadership role and management role was at the education center I mentioned earlier. So we were like a second-chance school for adults. We were a branch of literacy Alti Aurora and had about 20 odd tutors. I started as the business development manager trying to basically get more business ⁓ clients ⁓ and then became the manager for a little while and I was totally in over my head and really struggling with things. ⁓ I was stressed, I was working way too hard, I was bringing the work home, moaning and groaning to my wife, and not really enjoying it. And I'd sort of been working up Towards this leadership role, and then I was in it and just going, ⁓ geez, this kind of sucks. And is this it? So that was kind of the start of a journey for me, trying to figure out how do I make an impact as a leader, but without burning myself out in the process.
Trudy: Where did you land?
Paul: I mean, I'm still figuring it out, to be honest. And I think anybody who rocks up on a show like this and tells you that they've got it all figured out is either very stupid or very naive or trying to sell you something. Or potentially all three. ⁓ but I ⁓ a really important moment for me was chatting with a mentor. ⁓ his name is Tom Watkins and he'd written a couple of books and we'd sort of I don't know, just developed this informal mentoring relationship. We sat down over a cup of coffee and I was just bitching and moaning and ranting and raving about how unfair it was and how impossible the demands were and was unfair what the ministry was requiring and our staff weren't getting along and they were clashing and we weren't getting the number of learners and so we weren't meeting our financial goals. Like nothing was really going to plan. And he just asked me these questions and Patiently drew the story out of me. Then he looked at me and I can't remember his exact words, but it was something to the effect of, okay, Paul, it sounds like you've got a lesson to learn. Do you want to learn it in this role or do you want to learn it the next time this happens? And I I I probably didn't have the reaction that you had. I was I was a bit pissed off to be honest. Cause it it was a delightfully honest mirror that he was holding up to me and I didn't really like what I was seeing. ⁓ but that question really stuck with me. I'd gone into that meeting really just wanting him to validate my decision to quit, because I was I was trying to decide, yeah, should I quit? Should I quit? ⁓ and I left with this renewed enthusiasm to just keep on giving it a go. And yeah, he he and I worked together for a little while. That relationship was instrumental in me figuring out a way that was just a lot less stressful, but also more impactful for the people that I was trying to lead.
Trudy: Yeah, wow. It ⁓ it just reminded me too, and I I've often shared this with leaders, school principals, that it's when you're in those really challenging situations where your greatest leadership growth occurs, right? You can't you can't see it at the time and you s you certainly don't want to be told it, but you come out the other end and you go, ⁓ okay.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ No. Yeah.
Trudy: I've actually just built my capability. I you know, next time I face something like this, you don't actually think this, but it's what happens, you know, you you have a bit more confidence in dealing with the really tough stuff because you've been there before, right? It's it's that life experience that it shapes you. Yeah.
Paul: How long do you find it takes you to see the brighter side of it? 'Cause I don't know about you, but for me it's it's sometimes it's months or years. It is yeah, okay.
Trudy: ⁓ yeah. Years. Years, right? A and it I think too it comes from wisdom. ⁓ from the ex from those experiences and you get to a point where you go, I don't need to stress about this, I've done it before and I I've managed it previously so I can do it again. Yeah, but I also s working with other school leaders and, you know, they are really s working through some really challenging ⁓ situations that is pushing them to their limits in every way.
Paul: Yeah. Mm.
Trudy: And it's yeah, just kinda in in how do you help them see that this is this is growth. It's in that challenge that the growth comes. ⁓ which is what your amazing mentor pointed out, probably way better than what I do, 'cause they came at it with a question for you rather than just telling you, right? and that's probably the lesson too, right? Questions. Ask get curious, ask questions.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. His skill that I really picked up from him was he was so good at asking these questions and then just stay silent for uncomfortable lengths of time. You'd give him this answer and most people would then go, Okay, great, I'm on to the next question. He would just smile and nod. And then there was this awkward pause. And then in my head I'd be going, ⁓ I I obviously haven't I I need to go deeper. Okay. ⁓ damn it. And then I'd say something else and he'd just smile and nod a little bit more. It was so different to any communication style that I'd ever encountered before. And so frustratingly effective.
Trudy: Yeah. It's ⁓ That awkward silence, and you rush in to fill it.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: So I'd love to hear what's
Paul: In the back of my head, Trudy, I'm thinking, how long is this silence gonna go on for in the podcast now? Are we gonna out silence each other?
Trudy: Ha ha no. No. No. ⁓ but I'd love to explore the core idea at the heart of your work. How would you f sh shape it up?
Paul: If we want better outcomes, we have to ask better questions. It's not just asking surface level questions as well. I I had a coaching client recently and she said, ⁓ I've been trying to ask more questions, but everybody's just getting annoyed with me. We looked at the kind of questions she were ⁓ was asking. They were really just drawing up facts. And that's fine. But for the people who are responding, they already know the facts. So they don't feel like they're learning anything new by giving a summary of what's going on. So We're trying to get to a deeper level of questioning so we can get to a deeper level of understanding. And we just keep digging because it's really easy to address the surface level stuff. I mean, for your principles that you're working with, Trudy, there is way too much for them to do in their workday. They can never get it all done, and they can never please everybody. Because if you please staff, then you might piss off the parents and if you piss off the parents, well maybe the kids will be happy, but like it's just no one's ever gonna be fully satisfied. So we can't get it all done. We have to keep digging under the surface to figure out what's the stuff that we really, really need to do that's really going to make the biggest difference. And it's only by asking those deeper questions that we can figure that out.
Trudy: Yeah. Which takes me I'm gonna go back to to your book 'cause of course I've read it and I loved it. And no surprise I've now bought it for a whole lot of principles that I work with well.
Paul: What did you love about it?
Trudy: The sim don't take it the wrong way, but the simplicity, of course. ⁓ it's it's very practical and principals love practical. I also suspect that they will love it because they want to ask better questions. They want to be better leaders, but coming at it from ⁓ a coaching.
Paul: Mm. Mm.
Trudy: frame and I think your book helps shape up how we think about our work and how we might ask those questions that are going to elicit, as you said, deeper responses, more thoughtful. And purposeful.
Paul: Yeah. Hmm. It's interesting to hear you say, Trudy, that teachers want to ask better questions because I I had this assumption, so I studied law, and in law you're basically trained to argue and reason and trained that your value comes from having the answers. And to a certain extent, teaching is part of that as well. You're meant to show up and kind of have this lesson plan and things figured out. You're also guiding people through a learning experience and there's an element of we'll figure this out together. But sometimes those skills that we learn through our professional degrees actually are not helpful once we get into a leadership role. Because if we have to be the one who always has the answers, always has everything figured out, is exhausting and unrealistic.
Trudy: Yeah. Now I've never thought about this before before, so thank you. I was just thinking about my teacher training and there was a whole I don't know, unit, ⁓ or component of a subject around questioning as a teaching technique, right? There's they actually taught us that. I remember wait time, that's that pause after you've asked the question, like you just said with your mentor, and using that in the classroom as a teaching technique, you know, and eliciting responses.
Paul: Mm. Huh. Nice. Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Trudy: open questions, closed questions, all of that. The interesting thing is then, as you just beautifully highlighted, we move into leadership, ⁓ and often we end up in a leadership role because we have that technical skill in the profession. But leadership is a different skill set. And what you just described too around leaders and the having to have all the answers, and I've noticed this in my work with leaders over the last, ⁓ I was gonna say a few years, but
Paul: Nice.
Trudy: It's more than a decade now. is that they when someone brings them a challenge or an issue, they have a default response to solving that and often it is just giving an answer. It is, you know, or or I talk about ending up with the monkey on their back. You know, they they end up with the the problem or the challenge and have to solve it, rather than leaving it with the person who's brought it to them. And and this is where
Paul: Mm. Mm, yeah. Yeah.
Trudy: asking good questions comes into play and I think about it as ⁓ coaching. ⁓ you know, asking good coaching questions that gets you to a solution but is not actually around what you direct as the leader.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Well what do you think is it that would stop principals from taking that kind of approach?
Trudy: ⁓ it's just being aware of our default responses, I think. It's just that self awareness is a big part in it. Absolutely. What do you think?
Paul: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm. ⁓ I think sometimes we worry that we might look stupid as well. ⁓ we fear this judgment if we don't know what to do. We worry that we might be seen as too vulnerable or or weak even. I think all those little feels fears play out in the back of our mind and they can stop us from putting our curiosity to work. Mm.
Trudy: think too, you mentioned before about the workload and there's also probably a misconception around efficiency, so if I just give you the answer it'll get it done quickly. But in actual fact that's not that's a s kind of at the surface level and may not
Paul: Yeah.
Trudy: give you the full solution or be appropriate in terms of building that other person's capability as well. Yeah.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Trudy: But I was ⁓ going dig ⁓ back into the book because you said around ⁓ you know, the power of questions and going deeper and getting to ⁓ you know, what's important. And I I loved and ⁓ just one if you don't mind. The vision question. I just wanna pull that out. and your vision question is what would a good ancestor do?
Paul: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The story behind that one came locally and is a great connection back to Tal Māori, the wisdom of Māori people. There was this big process, it was kind of in and around COVID in our region to try and get some clarity on where are we going as a whole region. And we're pretty disjointed because there's a big hill in the middle, and so people don't sort of talk across the hill very much. And there was this gathering of different leaders from government, from ⁓ education. ⁓ young people, old older people, like it was it was really diverse mix. ⁓ lots of council people as well. And the conversation had kind of got to the point of which road should we build next? It was sort of at that level. And you know, that's kind of important. It'd be good to know that. ⁓ and one of the facilitators stood up and she sort of goes, I think this is that's a great conversation to be having, but it's not the conversation we need to have right now, we need to be looking much longer into the future and asking ourselves, what kind of ancestors do we want to be? It was quite an unfamiliar way of thinking and quite an unusual question for most of the people in that room. Because I mean it's the same in in a school, right? You're you might think a year ahead. You're definitely you're thinking term by term, or week by week, or even just day by day, but to be challenged to think generations ahead is just it's not something we do very often. But that's what that question is asking us to do is to think of the next generations and to realise that we are the ancestors of a whole lot of people who haven't yet been born. What is the legacy we want to pass down to them when they are looking back at us as ancestors? What do we want them to say about us? It's a challenging question and sends our brain and the kind of conversations we have down a totally different set of paths. And it certainly set that process down a really different path as well.
Trudy: Exactly. And and what occur you've just hit on it. ⁓ I've done lots of work over the years in the schools that I led, visioning work and, you know, strategic planning and the like. But I'd never thought about it in terms of the next generation. Well, let me change that. I've often thought in how as an educator we impact the next generation.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: But I've never thought about it in the terms of the next generation of learners coming through our schools in the sense of we've got these kids here with us now, but in a couple of cycles, we're actually gonna have their children and then their grandchildren. And as, you know, ⁓ an educator now closer to sixty than fifty, that that and ⁓ there's many people listening who've had this experience where you're not you you're on
Paul: Mm-hmm.
Trudy: teaching the second generation and the third generation, you know, that's ⁓ you're aware of that. But in terms of a vision in question, I've never thought about it with that frame and I just love it. And I think about what thinking and ideas and priorities would come about with a group of educators with that question. It's exciting.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a totally different frame of reference. ⁓
Trudy: Yeah. And and you see schools celebrating, you know, their well, in my area now I'm seeing them with their hundred and fiftieth and they celebrate how many generations of families have been at that school. And so when you think about, okay, l you know, when we're planning the vision of our school and the fut next, you know, the future work we're going to do, how would that be shaped like if we think about not just these children but the children of these children?
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: you know, who potentially will be in this area and still coming to this school twenty years from now. It's amazing. It's a great question. I love it.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or or to use whatever that anniversary is, if it's a hundred and fifty years, and to go, great, we're we're not just celebrating the last hundred and fifty. We're imagining what the next hundred and fifty could be. 'Cause that's probably ⁓ four or five generations. There's quite a few. Yeah.
Trudy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And what what does that look like? And it doesn't it? You get past the well, we're not asking which roads, but you know, you get past the surface level stuff and you really do get to the core of what's important, right? Yeah.
Paul: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're not asking about roads, it might be an argument about where the school camp is happening this year. That's that's absolutely blown up at ⁓ my wife's school last year. She's a primary school teacher.
Trudy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We get caught up in some ⁓ debates around things that yeah, really aren't important in the big scheme of things, right? Yeah. So, Paul, how do you see this idea playing out in day to day work of leaders?
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ in so many ways. I mean just imagine, right, you you rock up at the school gate at eight o'clock, whatever it is, and you bump into someone in the playground, ⁓ maybe it's a parent dropping their kid off early and and they've got some complaint to make and what if your default response was to kind of to to coach and guide that parent to coming up with a solution on their own. And I reckon you probably leave that conversation with way less work to do. Because either that parent would have figured out that it's not really a problem, this thing that they thought was a really big problem. Or you've guided them to figuring out a solution for themselves. And so it might have taken you a little bit longer. You might get to your office at ten past eight, because it took you ten minutes that conversation. But you've got no more work to do on that problem. It's gone away. Like that that's the dream, right? And it doesn't always happen like that. ⁓ and then I don't know, maybe maybe then after school you've got your staff meeting, and you don't have to prep nearly as much stuff. My my wife being a school teacher, I hear a lot of stories about how school's going. And one of her constant complaints amongst A whole lot of really good principles that she has is my gosh, our staff meetings are so boring and they're so long, and I just sit there and I don't really say very much. And she's a really smart, capable human who's got so much to give and and contribute, and she does. And I just think, okay, what's going on there? And I suspect I could be wrong, because I'm not in those meetings, but I've seen other people run other meetings where The leader is taking up so much space and airtime that there's no chance for anyone else to contribute. So I think if we apply this idea to a meeting, then it means great. You don't have to prepare nearly as much stuff. You can prepare some questions and create an environment where your talented staff are f figuring stuff out and solving it for themselves. So for the people li who are listening to this podcast who I know are really busy and just got tons on. I see this as a way to reduce their workload, to reduce their stress and in the process to create better outcomes along the way.
Trudy: Yeah. I think you're ⁓ under something. So I'm curious as technology accelerates, what becomes more important for leaders?
Paul: In a word discernment, which is a a word I didn't hear until I was probably like twenty seven thirty years old. ⁓ and it was one of those words that I had to go and look it up in the dictionary and go, what on earth does that mean? And I s I take it to mean you're very careful and thoughtful about what you say yes to and what you say no to. With the promises of AI, I think it's really easy to actually end up saying yes to way more stuff because it's a lot easier to create. The friction of making stuff has disappeared. And in the sort of excitement or curiosity of that, we might then end up creating a whole lot of work for other people to consume. And so I think we need to be really careful around that. We also need to be really careful around which parts of ourselves we allow to be delegated to technology and which parts we don't. And that was why I didn't want to delegate my introduction to AI. I wanted to try and practice a little bit of what I preach around discernment with technology and go actually no, that's precious to me. That's for me to take, that's for me to keep.
Trudy: Yeah. Yeah. And I I think about and am aware of ⁓ the flip side I guess, you know, we one of the claims is, you know, being improved productivity. But on the flip side I am v greatly concerned about than the rising expectation that more will be achieved because you can. ⁓ and almost a compression of work. and and I parallel this with email, you know, twenty twenty years ago where we had all the promises around what email would provide us, you know, we would paperless offices and, you know, so much more free time. And I'm like, yeah, the exact opposite has happened, right? And we all, you know, it's a s
Paul: Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Trudy: trying to manage our inboxes and I can I can see the same on the horizon with AI that, you know, there will be expectations to produce more because you can do it so quickly. ⁓ so there's almost like y you I love your word discernment, but it's, you know, creating those boundaries around what you will and what you won't, ⁓ to protect yourself. ⁓ yeah.
Paul: Mm. Mm. I I don't know if you've found this trudy, but there are certain situations where AI has saved me a bundle of time. I then I just replace it with more work.
Trudy: That's yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, right? Yeah, yeah. So y yeah, the task that used to take ten hours you can now whip it out in an hour. What are you doing with the other nine? More work? Like you don't then down tools and, you know, go and read a good book. Or walk in nature. Yeah, you just do more, yeah.
Paul: Mm. Mm, mm. Mm, mm, mm, mm.
Trudy: Kind of the flip of it. Yeah. But hey back
Paul: So I of continuing on this theme, ⁓ what I'd be getting really interested in as a leader is what is the stuff I want to be spending the bulk of my time on. And unless we're clear on that, then ⁓ touching AI not gonna help. But if we know that actually as a principal, what I really wanna be doing is spending fifty percent of my time ⁓ supporting staff, alongside them. ⁓ 30% of my time connecting with parents, understanding the world, and ⁓ wow, I'm bad at maths. 20% of my time with students. Like if that's the stuff that really matters to you, then great. Now we can figure out how AI can help you with that. Rather than going, ⁓ AI, exciting, interesting. ⁓ I can make personalized posters. Great. Yeah, but does that help you to actually support your staff better? I don't know. Yeah.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah. And and get you to the core of what you want to do. Yeah, where you can have a real impact with with your skill set and your experience and passion. Yeah. Yeah. So Paul, if a leader's listening and wanted to take one small step aligned with your work, where would you suggest they start?
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. And I'd say get yourself someone who's in your corner, like a Trudy Graham, ⁓ can be the guide alongside you because I think we learn so much by having someone else ⁓ that role for us. ⁓ ⁓ a principal can be pretty lonely at times. ⁓ So that's where I'd say to start, find yourself someone who's in your corner. One hundred percent there for you. Not someone like your partner who, you know, we go home and we rant and we rave to them, but they've got other priorities. Someone who is just there for you.
Trudy: And what do you hope school leaders feel after engaging with your work?
Paul: I hope they feel lighter. Being a school leader, a a principal is pretty heavy stuff sometimes, with the increasing complexity of everything that's coming at you. So I hope that it leaves them with this kind of renewed vigour for the work they do, because damn it's important. It this work really matters. And the world needs principals who can show up feeling good, being curious, ⁓ able to Being a school leader, a a principal is pretty heavy stuff sometimes, with the increasing complexity of everything that's coming at you. So I hope that it leaves them with this kind of renewed vigour for the work they do, because damn it's important. It this work really matters. And the world needs principals who can show up feeling good, being curious, ⁓ able to make their school a better place and make their community a better place through their school. make their school a better place and make their community a better place through their school. so if they can be a bit lighter in that journey, then I feel like I've ⁓ I've made a good contribution.
Trudy: Yeah. And you do use the motto work that matters and ⁓ yeah, ⁓ absolutely it's work that matters. So your book, The Question Effect, Lead with Curiosity for Less Stress and More Impact, where might school leaders get in touch with you if they want to learn more about your work or get a get their hands on a copy of the book?
Paul: Mm. PaulMcGregor.co.nz. There's some free tools on there, a whole lot of useful things for leaders on the free tools page, I'd say start there. ⁓ yeah, a couple of things around how to ask better questions, how to put that into practice, a few things, ⁓ some tools around structuring your day, things like that which are kind of practical and useful. That's would be my suggestion.
Trudy: Great, thanks Paul. Now to wrap up, I have these ritual questions, three closing questions. No AI involved. No AI. So I would love to know what is the best kept secret about where you are?
Paul: ⁓ Phew. Ooh, there's this place called the Riwaka Resurgence, which is where now there's a big hill, mountain, and the water goes through the cracks in the mountain and gets purified over decades and then bubbles up out of the Riwaka Resurgence. It's the most magical, spiritual, beautiful place on earth and you gotta get yourself there to check it out.
Trudy: Wow, that sounds amazing.
Paul: Yeah, it's not in any of the guy books. No one really seems to know about it.
Trudy: Well, so it really is a secret.
Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I took your question literally.
Trudy: Yeah, yeah, actually that's a funny thing about Un New Zealand, you know, because in my travels too, I came out at this beach on the west coast that had all clearly people over time, rock stacks, just the whole length of this beach. It was no
Paul: Mm. Mm. ⁓ yeah. Do you not do that? We've got nothing else to do here in New Zealand, so we stack rocks. Right, okay, yeah, yeah. ⁓
Trudy: Well probably 'cause probably 'cause there's no rocks on our beaches like this particular beach. It was amazing. And also a storm had just passed, so the ⁓ the rocks were glistening with, you know, the w water on them. it also blew my mind 'cause I'm thinking when there's big surf, you know, those rock stacks would fall over, tumble. But here they were all built up. Well the thing is I went to find it.
Paul: Mm.
Trudy: online, there wasn't a single reference to it. I mean, how can this not be a thing? Best kept secrets of New Zealand, so thanks, Paul. ⁓ okay, sorry, sidetracked there. What's a book or film you'd recommend and why does it matter to you?
Paul: Wonderful. I love so many books. This is a hard question, but I'll just throw one out there. The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. It is one of those very readable books about a serious topic. How do we meet? How do we gather? How do we decide? How do we make progress together in large groups? And I just think that's really relevant as a context for school leaders. And in so many ways, you know, from your school assemblies to your staff meetings to your ⁓ events that you have. And she just looks at ways to make them better in really simple, easy, memorable ways. Because, you know, y when you go to an event, Trudy, and it's you sit there and you find yourself on your phone more than you are engaging with the event and you leave going, Well, that's kind of a waste of time. ⁓ I think there's way too much of that in the world and this book helps to Turn that around.
Trudy: ⁓ thank you. I I will confess I have that book and I have not read it. So it's going on the pile. Thank you. Thank you. ⁓ and what's something that brings you comfort or joy at the end of a long week?
Paul: ⁓ You're nice. ⁓ high quality sheets. So I was MCing a conference last week and you know I I in one of the breaks said to someone, ⁓ what's been the highlight of the conference? I was at this the Novatel Airport hotel in Auckland and she said to me, ⁓ don't tell the organizers, but the sheets at this hotel are so nice and that's been the highlight.
Trudy: Okay.
Paul: And I totally agreed with her. ⁓ so getting into a nice bed with a book, ⁓ and just cuddling down for the night. Brilliant.
Trudy: Yeah. I love that. So honest. Thanks, Paul. That was unexpected, but you know, ask the question, get the answer. I love it. ⁓ thank you. It's been a great conversation. I knew it would be. Really appreciate you taking the time to chat.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, brilliant. Love the work you're doing, Trudy. ⁓ and I look forward actually to meeting some of your principals in one of your sessions later in the year.
Trudy: Yeah, it's gonna be great.
