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In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners.
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Listener discretion is advised.
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Adventures with Purpose has helped bring resolution to families who were told there was nothing left to find.
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Their work forces us to reconsider what might still be possible in cases like Audrey's, where water, time, and unanswered questions intersect.
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Today, we will learn about the realities of underwater searches, what draws teams like Bill's to cases like Audrey Heron's, and why hope doesn't expire no matter how many years have passed.
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This is Tragedy, a true crime podcast.
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Today we are welcoming Bill McIntosh to Tragedy.
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Bill is the director of Exploring with a Mission and a search specialist with Adventures with Purpose.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Honor to be here.
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Before we start talking about the work that your organizations have done to support Audrey's family, we'd love to hear a little bit about Exploring with a Mission and Adventures with Purpose.
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So we started Exploring with a Mission after year five of doing missing person searches.
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I had located uh, I think at that point, 11 individuals either underwater in their cars or missing in swamps and mountains uh in the Northeast region, and decided that we'd build a nonprofit organization that we could uh gain funding, we could look for sponsorship and start to really grow this in a nonprofit foundation way, uh, and be almost a grant-making foundation for some of the other entities around the country that are that are doing what we're doing, which is uh dive sonar search specialists or searching for people that are missing with their vehicles.
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Uh currently we know that there are 3,000 missing persons in the country, uh, or in essence, in the world that we know of.
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Um, and we're searching for those individuals among thousands and thousands of cars that are underwater.
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And Exploring with a Mission was built specifically to help families bring answers to those families and to bring answers to communities that have lost loved ones in those communities that have not been found by law enforcement or by the families themselves.
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And they are, as we talked about originally, you know, a little while ago, they're in very logical locations.
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Um, and you know, I kind of base it down to probability.
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It's a it's a math problem.
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How far from the house are they?
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What is the closest body of water to their house?
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And which one is the most um, I guess, fluid, meaning moving uh during winter months?
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You know, where where could they have gone that makes the most logical sense that um is in their direct path home?
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And it's typically, as I said, a math problem.
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And uh exploring of the mission details all that out, creates a case file for each individual that is missing, and and we go and search.
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We we put you know action to the words, which is you know, we're in, we're gonna we're gonna see if we can find that individual.
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And tell us about a case that you're particularly proud of.
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I mean, I I think a lot, I mean every one of them, but you know, Donnie Messier was one of them, the the the red truck in Vermont, um Maureen Sherman down in Florida.
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The case that makes me, you know, I went all the way to uh Tasmania, Australia to find a man by the name of Nicholas Lease, and at the same time took a day off to go search for Dale Nicholson, but I was 17,000 miles away from my house um and my family, and um was able to bring home a man on the other side of the planet, proving that this that this math and the and the and the probability diagrams work because he was 750 yards from his house.
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Holy crap.
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For how long?
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For six and a half years.
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Yeah, so I mean, some of them have been six and a half years, uh you know, but I just found a man, my last uh person that I found 37 years, Robert St.
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Louis in Montreal, Canada.
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Uh so I've uh by between myself and Dan down under, we have found five individuals underwater together.
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Um, and then I found multiple with with Adventures for the Purpose.
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But um we found Robert St.
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Louis and Yvonne Guevin when we're in Canada, making it so that we are the international group.
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I've found people in the United States, Canada, and Australia.
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And every single one of them was literally exactly where we thought they were.
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Yeah, that it's we're just kind of looking at each other like, oh my gosh.
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Um, I think this really resonates with you, Michael, because you're very strategic, evidence-driven.
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So I can see you're just learning a little bit about mapping software.
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I think you might this might be something that you would start to think about.
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We're we're looking at that, we're trying to figure out the logical progressions of things.
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And even with one of our other cases, Ian Rogers, you know, he while he wasn't in water, he was 1.83 miles away from his last ping location and no one knew.
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Yeah, the truck.
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The truck was.
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Yeah.
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And that is what you would think, right?
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Yeah, they don't go far.
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And and the reality is most of most people go missing in a place that they know um, you know, most of these people, like unless it's nefarious activity.
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As soon as you're it's nefarious, now you're taken out of your your life pattern, your life circle, and into the life circle of the individual that did the nefarious activity.
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So now you're in into what they know.
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And so if it's if it's not if it's self-harm or if it's an accident, 95% of the time they're in their natural circle of their life.
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So, like, you know, we all go to the shopping center, to uh Macy's, to the gas station, to get ice cream, to go to the high school, to go to the college, you know, to grandma's house.
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All those pieces, when you map all those locations to the uncles, to the cousins, you put all that into the into your probability diagram, and you start to see that there's a pattern of in our life of which roads we take all the time, which roads go by water, which roads go by that special spot that that Dale listened to the to the news, or that Donnie Messier listened to NPR and and uh Paul Harvey Good Day.
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You know, like there's specific places where people spend their most time.
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Uh Robert Long in Long Island went went to the to the uh boat ramp we found him at every day to have a nip and to watch the birds.
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And that's what he did every day.
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So when his wife came and said to me, Hey, I knew he was here the whole time, but the police checked this thing fifth this ramp 50 times.
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But the difference is that you know, we've seen thousands of cars on our sonar systems, and some of these policemen are 23, 28 years old and have only seen 10 in their entire career.
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That makes a lot of sense because I I've watched quite a bit of the videos that you guys put on, and I'm always amazed at some of the detail that you know you guys pick up on.
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That when I see the image, I'm like, it doesn't look like a car to me, but then you start moving around it and hitting the side sonar.
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I was like, oh, now I see it.
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I completely see that.
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It's amazing.
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I'm really looking, you know, like I I've I've searched for for Audrey Huron multiple times, not only with Adventures with Purpose with with Jared Lizac and and the team with Kate and others, but I've also gone out there and searched myself and try to get a sense of this.
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This is a different type of case.
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She didn't, she only had 17 minutes to get home.
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Um, she had to drive from Catskill to uh to Freehold, which is literally you drive down the road, take a right on 23, and um, and literally are back on Skohari Boulevard or Skohari Drive, you know, Route 67 in minutes.
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Um, it was a foggy night when she went missing, but we're not sure if she celebrated that night, if she went to a friend's house, knowing that the kid, this is the first time that she's been out since the baby was born.
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That the first time she recently went back to work.
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She had a doctor's appointment the next day.
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Like I know everything about and every detail about that case except for where did she go when she took the right on, I think it's it's either 23 or 32.
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Which which where did she go?
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Did she take a right or did she go to a friend's house to have a cigarette and and and a drink to celebrate with a friend that she got a raise?
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Um she had talked to her husband earlier from the from the uh business phone at the nursing home.
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So but you know, he went to bed.
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He I think he told me that she he felt like you know, she was really comfortable, she was really happy that that they were all home together, and that you know, she was very excited about getting the raise, that you know, she worked really hard for it, you know, and sh they just brought her back into work after after having the baby.
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And the baby was, I think, uh 10 months old or 11 months old at the time, or maybe less.
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So um, you know, I just cases like that one, there are probably 150 tiny little ponds on the hill, meaning like little old cow pasture ponds or ponds behind rock walls.
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Um, there's ponds in the backyards of houses.
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That's the hard part about this, is that we don't know if she took a left and went to a friend's to get cigarettes and milk for the kids or to have a drink with a friend.
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We don't know if she she's in a in a very odd spot because, like this one, we don't know if nefarious activity occurred because of the individual that was working with her with her.
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Uh the son of the individual that was working with her uh was known to assault women.
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So we're not really sure what happened here, but we haven't found her in any of those 150 ponds, or they don't have the depth to hide a Jeep Cherokee.
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Yeah, one of the things that has stuck out to us when we've done uh several other interviews is they talk about this 12 miles that was thoroughly reviewed by law enforcement, by friends, family, various other organizations, and that there were no guardrails that were damaged, there was no area that looked like it came off the road, there was no vegetation or trees damaged, and so they were really struggling with even where to look.
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Well, I I think the biggest thing is we also have to realize is that the daughter came home um from Florida, um Sancia came home from Florida with the grandparents, and she was up in Selkirk, and so that's a different direction that the case took when I we went that way.
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Okay, so we went north to Selkirk, past I think it was Green Lake and past another, you know, a couple other lakes in that corner, ponds and lakes over in that corner.
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But we took that northern route and went to Selkirk.
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We also did the northern route doing the loop where we went through Freehold, through Cairo, through Freehold to Selkirk.
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Um, we've cleared everything in that circle on the thought process she's either going home or she's going to get Sancia because she has a doctor's appointment the next day.
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We then cleared everything on Skolhari and then and through the reservoirs on the notion that she went the back way.
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We then went and looked at it from a nefarious activity that the uh coworker's son abducted her and that she could possibly be in one of the um in the the rivers south of Cairo.
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Um, and so we searched all those.
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Um we went up the the Catskill River.
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We went up the something Kill River, Skelly Killer.
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There's so many different ones there.
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Cotterskill, Cotterskill.
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We went up the Cotterskill River as far as we could until we got to dry ground.
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Um we did all the the bridges.
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Uh we did the the section just at the bottom of the hill on the Cotterskill, which is filled with logs.
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Like we've searched every body of water that that we could possibly think of that she could get into, but we have not searched backyards.
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Um and you know, because it's you know, we have to knock on the door, say hello, um, you know, and see if we can, you know, gain access to those ponds with our gas engines or electric engines.
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Um, and I think that's the next stage of this is that people are gonna have to like if they knew, if you knew Audrey Haran and you have a pond in your backyard, you're gonna have we we're gonna have to check it just to make sure that she didn't drive into your into your driveway at you know, you know, wanting to say hello at 11 o'clock at night because she got a raise and wanted to celebrate with you.
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And next thing you know, she she backed in by accident in the dark in the fog.
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And and that's the concern we have is that she's just in a place just off the beaten path that we haven't seen um because it's in the backyard of someone's house that she was going to say hello to.
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And it could be one of her friends, it could be her ex-husband, it could be your ex-boyfriend, uh, it could be, we have no idea.
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Um, we we checked the ponds uh at her her husband's house.
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Um, we checked the ponds at the golf course, we checked all the ponds uh on that road, and and could we have missed her?
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Yes.
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Um, you know, we almost missed Donnie Messier.
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He was, you know, it was the way that the truck was filled with debris on the side, you know, and the fact that you couldn't maintain a uh proper RPMs because of the river, you know, you we almost missed him.
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Um, you know, we almost missed um Yvonne Gwen.
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You know, it his sonar image looked like a dragon on the, you know, like it was this big yellow dragon, and then when we went back, that was just one of the tires sticking up uh, you know, in the sonar image, and we came back, we came at a different angle.
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Um when I went to Australia the year before, Dan had done Australia and had done the Derwent River in Tasmania, and he said, you know, Dale's not there, and I went, that's the number one logical spot for it.
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Let's go back over there.
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He goes, No, I already did it.
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I went, let's go back over it.
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Boom, that's where he was.
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And he goes, I must have missed him behind the tree.
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So, like, you know, it we're not perfect, you know, we're really good at what we do because we've seen cars so many times, but you know, we could have missed her um in in one of these bodies of water, but I don't think so.
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I mean, we with two sets of eyes on it, it makes it even me, you know, more um, you know, it's more more chances that we're gonna find you if there's two sets of eyes on the sonar systems.
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You know, so I don't know.
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I'm not I'm not sure where Audrey went, you know, and and that's the biggest thing is is we've got to map more of her life patterns.
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You know, I don't know where her ex-husband lived.
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I don't know where you know Marie and others lived at the time and and her friends lived at the time.
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I only know where her parents lived, her husband lived, the golf course was, and her work was.
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Like I I have very little information to go on to map her life patterns.
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So this is a really interesting conversation, very helpful for me because I was not thinking outside of the typical route.
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Like for me, it's 11 o'clock at night, it's late, it's a little foggy.
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I'm only thinking about what I would do.
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And I would probably just want to go home.
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But I love that you've opened up this thought of perhaps she went to a friend's house or, you know, took maybe went to go get some milk somewhere or something.
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Can you you talked a little bit about Selkirk and um related to Sancia coming back from Florida?
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What is your theory there?
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Like perhaps Audrey wasn't planning on going back home, that she was heading somewhere else to meet Sancia.
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Is that where you're going with that?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, like, because of the fact that she had a doctor's appointment the next day, she hadn't seen her daughter in 30 days.
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So her oldest daughter had just come home and she had been with in the RV with with grandma and grandpa, her parents, uh um, Audrey's parents, you know, and so they had just returned that afternoon, and Ma and Audrey went to work, couldn't pick her up before work.
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And the thought process is would she go because Jeff and the kids were sleeping, the babies were sleeping at the house and they were comfortable, would she go to Selkirk to pick up Sancia be because of the fact that she had a doctor's appointment?
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Because if it was, let's say the doctor's appointment was 11.
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Well, now she's not picking her up until four or five o'clock in the afternoon.
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Um, you know, and you know, like there there's been the no notion, like, you know, maybe she was um I I I there is no self-harm in in in my estimation in this.
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Um, you know, that this is either an accident or somebody uh did something to Audrey in you know by getting into that car in the parking lot.
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You know, we've checked the Hudson River, we've checked, you know, like I short of just going into the auto body place in in Catskill and walking row by row until I can find a black Cherokee.
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Um, you know, like I I just don't know if if that car is in water.
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Um, you know, because again, like you know, there's not a lot of water in Selkirk where uh where Sancia was.
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Uh there's a stream out back.
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There was an old back in the day, like what her father did was, or her stepfather did, was he ran cars.
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Like he was a he had one of the transport trailers with cars, and it's still sitting in the yard today, and you can see it from Google Earth.
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Um, he was a car transport guy because behind him was an airport and an auto salvage yard.
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So like I looked at everything.
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I looked at the stepfather, I looked at the father, I looked at the guy from work, I looked at it from the standpoint of the ex-husband, we looked at it from the husband standpoint.
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Like, we looked at it as a travel to Sancia, we looked at it as a travel straight home, we looked at it as an abduction, and then we looked at it as okay, maybe she went to get at the milk and go up, you know, one exit for further than Cairo, that she decided to go get milk for the kids because you know the babies needed milk in the morning and they didn't have enough milk.
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Uh and she didn't have any cigarettes on her, and she didn't have her wallet, but she had always had money in her license.
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And and the reason was because people had been stealing from the uh lockers at the retirement home.
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So, like those pieces I put together and I went, okay, well, maybe she's just going to get cigarettes because she didn't have any cigarettes, because the cigarettes were on the shelf at the house.
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The pocketbook was on the shelf of the house.
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Um, you know, I'm and I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe she had car problems because the tire was fixed.
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And, you know, you look at it from the standpoint of where could you have a mishap with the tire that could be fatal?
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And there's only a couple spots that there's a downhill run where if you blew a tire and you went off the road, that you went into that body of water.
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Um, you know, and again, some some of these bodies of water are in the backyard of houses or on this, you know, that are private property and that I have not been able to get into.
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And and she very well could be in a private property location because you know, you know, she in accident scenario, not as much.
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Uh self-harm, I I think, you know, one half of one percent chance.
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Uh nefarious activity, fifty to seventy percent chance.
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Um, because it's not.
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It's just it disappeared.
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You know, and whether whether it be something in her life that caused it.
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But I mean, she was celebrating that night.
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You know, she's was celebrating the fact that she got that raise and you know, and she was back to work and she was happy to be back to work.
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You know, I so I I just don't know at this point like what happened to Audrey.
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And it's, you know, for Jeff and for Sancia and for the the kids, like, and for Marie and all the friends, like we just want to find her and and you know, we're we're gonna keep searching for her.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:48.000
I'm gonna I'm gonna probably redo some of the things I did because you know, just like Dale Nicholson in Tasmania, you know, we missed them and we found them the year two.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.559
You are describing um some of the challenges of searching in that area.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:02.799
We're a little bit familiar with that area because we've spent some time in New England and drawn, you know, gone up and over, I guess not really a pass, but into the Catskill Mountains.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.160
Um, can you describe some of the challenges of searching in that area?
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.319
I would imagine it's kind of like windy roads and steep drop-offs.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.079
Can you tell us sort of what that looks like?
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.160
Paint a picture for listeners.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.160
Well, I think the biggest thing is that it's it's more swampy.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:24.799
Um, meaning the hillside, let's go hari, is kind of a swampy area.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:37.920
Um, you know, and yeah, there are ponds that are in corners around on the bends coming off of 23 and 32 that that have some, you know, you don't know the depth.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:42.079
Meaning the sonar ball says it's five, but it might be seven.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:44.880
And can that vehicle hide in seven?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:45.440
Yes.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:46.880
Can it hide in five?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:52.640
Probably not, unless you know it's at an angle, um, or or it's sunk in the mud.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:58.160
And you know, it's a very um how do I explain it?
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.680
Like the the waters are dark brown for one.
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:10.319
You know, when the when the mud comes off the cat skills, it it goes into the rivers, into the cotter skill, and it's really dark.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.160
The cat skill rivers, like you can see the bottom.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:16.799
Like it's you can see it for miles.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:18.079
It's very clear.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.640
You can see the bottom on Google Earth for miles and miles and miles.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:38.640
It's it's those back ponds and lakes that are muddy from runoff and or covered in in um, I would say, you know, different types of mosses and and grasses and different things, um, lily pads.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:46.400
And so like we've searched a bunch of different spots that you know we could she have gone into some of them?
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:47.200
Yes.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:56.640
I mean recently Adam Brown um was down, I think it was in either Arkansas or Alabama, I can't remember, but he found a BMW.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.599
It was the number one bridge that they thought that this guy should be at because it was the first bridge on the way home from the restaurant on the bar.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.799
And he threw the sonar ball in and it said seven feet or six feet.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.799
And, you know, it was all covered in in lily pads.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.759
Well, that BMW was there.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:27.359
What happened was is he skipped across the water and then jammed into the bank at the angle and was under the lily pads, and then the lily pads came over the top of the vehicle.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.799
So the only way to find that vehicle was to throw a magnet.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:41.920
So we learned from Adam Brown in that experience that five feet, six feet of water, you can still hide a car if it's if it goes in at the right angle.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.119
You know, the same thing with Whisper in California, she was under the bridge.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.119
Like her vehicle went under the bridge with her and her baby in it.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:26:03.039
And it took, you know, Jared looking at an angle on sonar, looking under the bridge where the water was all the way to the bridge bottom, and then saying, Hey, I got a vehicle under the bridge.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.240
And the diver went down and goes, It's Whisper's vehicle.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:09.839
And so, like, we're we're not perfect.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.759
We're we're we're learning still too.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:20.640
Like, all of us have been doing this as a hobby since 2018, as a bunch of dads that want to help families find answers.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:37.680
Um, and you know, on YouTube, but the reality is that we we're still learning where we should be looking, or or when we know that there's a possibility that that's the number one bridge, but it it it doesn't look deep enough.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:49.440
We've got to double check it sometimes, and sometimes we just gotta throw a magnet to make sure that there's no magnetic, you know, uh grab in in those lily pads, just like Adam Brown did.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.119
What do you think your next um step for Audrey is?
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.599
Like what is what is the next thing that you want to search?
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:14.319
I I'm I want to search, excuse me, I want to work that corner pond as you come up the road from the transmission place.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:23.279
There's a couple ponds in the um right off of I think I can't remember if it's 23 comes across to 32, or if it's 32 and 23.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
I always forget because they're both the same numbers.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:25.759
Right.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:26.880
But yeah.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:47.200
Um so when you're sliding in from the transmission company, that was the last known location that was she was seen uh with the police officer who was sitting at the transmission company, said he was she was going up towards freehold, and he thinks that she was going to take a right on, or that she was that she took a right on this one road.
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.960
There's one pond on the bend in the turn that I want to double check.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:03.359
There's a pond at the top of the hill before you get to the center of freehold, um, uh where the cul-de-sac ends in the pond down at the bottom in the private driveway.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.640
Like those are the ones that I want to check next.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.319
And then I'm I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna do Skolhari again.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:18.000
Like just in case Nick Ren or and Jared missed them, missed him.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:25.279
Um, because we learned recently that, you know, I I didn't check the Mansfield Hollow.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.559
Okay, and I checked everything else in the entire region for Robert Kavanaugh.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:36.000
I cleared every body of water, every river, stream, creek, pond, everything.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.759
The only place I didn't check was the only one that had the depth, Mansfield Hollow.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:50.319
And that's where Robert Kavanaugh was, and it was the one place that Jared and the team, Nick and Dan, had checked.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:03.519
And I mean, yes, Robert was his vehicle, his little B2000, was in a hole in the grasses 150 yards from the bank, which means that he drove out on the ice.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.079
Oh, I was like, that's really far.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.160
Yeah, he drove out on the ice and then went through the ice and and disappeared.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:24.480
And so when those guys did what they did, they missed him because he was just outside the normal pattern of what we've seen in in vehicles that float.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:42.240
And so, you know, like we're learning every single time we do a search that there's there might be a different scenario that we're missing, you know, and like in the Robert Kavanaugh, it was ice in the BMW with the gentleman down in Alabama.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:55.519
It was he came in at such a high rate of speed that when he hit, hit the bank, and everything exploded over the top of him, and now all the lily pads were like back into their formation above the vehicle, like nothing ever happened.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.920
It was crazy, and so the only way to find him is by magnet.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:08.079
So, like with Audrey, we might have missed her by just uh saying, you know what, that pond's not deep enough.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:09.599
You know what?
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.799
That pond's in a private driveway, we're not gonna search that one.
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:25.920
And so yeah, I mean, she could still be on a normal travel pattern on that hillside between Catskill, Cairo, and Freehold in that in that nook somewhere.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:41.200
I mean, until we know that every pond is truly cleared with whether they're drained or they're you know, cleared with sonar or with LIDAR, that I I I don't discount that we could have missed her.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:53.680
Earlier you were um discussing some percentages of some the I'll call them theories, the percentage that this theory could be um what happened to Audrey.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:00.960
What really stood out to me was you talked about a 50 to 70 percent chance that something nefarious may have happened to her.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:04.079
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:13.839
There's a lot going on in that region with um if you look at young women that are been abducted.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:23.119
Um she was a pretty woman, uh, she has that, you know, uh in itself is is an issue.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:30.079
Two, she's leaving work at 11 o'clock at night, kind of a different kind of environment in Catskill.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.000
And so something could happen.
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:43.359
At the same time, the coworker was a known person to police and law enforcement for accosting women.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:58.960
Um the fact that she is uh remarried, got new children, children with one father, children with another father, that adds to your you know, percentage of that there's a chance that someone's someone's mad.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:31:59.680
Okay.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:06.960
Um at the same time, if she goes to a gas station, she disappeared.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:11.359
Like I I'm the normally the guy that this is always an accident, right?
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:12.559
It's always an accident.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.680
Like there's or or yes, they did it themselves.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:25.039
Like that's typically like 50% of people that we are searching for self-harmed, they they put themselves in a body of water.
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:36.400
Okay, so 50% of the remaining is either accident or nefarious or um something you know outside the norm occurred on that day.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.720
And so with Audrey, I mean, she's a beautiful woman.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:45.920
She's late at night, she's driving a car that has no spare tire.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:53.680
Um, she doesn't have her cigarettes, she doesn't have her her, you know, any credit cards, she doesn't have her wallet, she doesn't have her phone.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:59.359
She's already all those pieces right there in itself put you in a bad place.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:09.920
Um and then, you know, she's celebrating her uh, you know, her new her job and her increase in her pay.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.799
Um, you know, what occurred?
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:13.599
I mean, we don't know.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:18.240
Like she could have gone to a friend's house and something happened there and she never made it home.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.160
That something happened at 12 o'clock at night.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.720
That car could be in Pennsylvania.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:24.000
We don't really know.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:33.599
Um, we do know that also like that she had, and again, I I I got this from Jeff, her husband.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:43.759
You know, she and again, I just be careful with what you say, but you know, she had a lump on her breast the day before, and that's through the doctor's appointment.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:59.119
And we don't believe that that's a reason that she would ever I mean she was in great spirits, but you know, she she was nervous about the next day's um appointment with the doctor because she had a lump on her breast.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:14.800
And so you did she go somewhere that no one knows, did she go to check on like to drive by the doctor's office that she was going to the next day because she'd never been there before, or we're not sure.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.000
You know, did she go to like there are not a lot of bodies of water in the Cairo region?
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:34.800
Meaning there's a few places that you go, like but from the standpoint of if you stop in there to get milk and someone does something, I mean she's not a big woman, she's tiny.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:46.880
You know, and so that that was my my concern was that you know we're not looking in her natural pattern, we're looking in the killer's natural pattern.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:35:00.719
Yes, as you were describing those for me, I was it it made me start thinking about risk factors, which is something we discuss quite frequently when we are trying to support a family, is you know, what are the risk factors?
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:07.280
And you're talking about someone who's a single at the time, single lady driving home.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.599
She's obviously married, but she's driving home alone.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:10.880
It's dark.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:15.599
There are several other things that she may have been going to do, no cell phone.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:20.639
Sounds like she'd left her purse at home when she potentially went to work that day because of the theft.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.519
And and I hear what you're saying about her daughter coming home, right?
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:31.440
If she's been gone for 30 days, and my daughter used to take these uh road trips with with my mom, and I was excited for her to come home.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:42.320
So I can see the idea of, you know, did she just drive there to pick her up so that she's not waiting an entire next day to be able to see her daughter who's been gone for a while.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.400
So I mean, you see all these things.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:49.679
Yeah, I would I mean I would automatically go to pick up my kid by a female dirty day.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:50.800
Absolutely.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:51.440
100%.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.719
And I'd say it was grandma for the night one more time at that house.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:02.000
You know, and and I've been to that house, you know, and it's it's not it's not Jeff's house.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:03.119
I'll tell you that right now.
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.960
Meaning, you know, it was I'm sure it was dirty then.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:08.960
It was in an auto salvage yard.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.920
I'm sure the first thing I would do is go get my kid.
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:21.440
Okay, so um, you know, and I um this is her daughter, like Sansier was was her firstborn.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:29.199
Like this, you know, so like I just just don't see her waiting at the same time, like knowing that she had a doctor's appointment the next day.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.800
But again, like I am I'm gonna clear the hill again.
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:36.559
I'm gonna go and do it again.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:41.679
I'm gonna do it until I I either exhaust it or I find her.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:48.320
You know, and and that's the I think that's the biggest thing about what exploring, you know, going back to the beginning of this conversation.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:54.719
Exploring with a mission is is always on the mission of of trying to to make a difference in these cases.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:55.840
And we don't quit.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.199
We we I don't give up.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.639
Like I've gone back for Robert Kavanaugh seven times.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.440
I've gone back for Audrey five times.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:12.400
Um, I'm gonna do you know, Cabrera in Long Island, and we're gonna do uh you know the cases in Maine.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.599
Like I'm going back up to Canada in the spring.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:28.239
Um, we we keep working at it and putting in the effort and taking the action because without the action, the you know, no we're not gonna find them.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.039
We're not gonna find any of these people without taking the action.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.119
That's the thing about adventures with purpose and exploring the mission and these other entities.
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:46.239
We are putting the boats in the water and we are consistently every day trying to locate another vehicle in the region of a missing person that possibly could break the case.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:53.119
And and I think by doing it the way that we're doing it, we're having such a success rate.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:38:03.679
I mean, in the US, we and in Canada and Australia, we've now found a total of over 100 people underwater in their cars.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:17.599
And that's Adam Brown and Nug, that's Chaos Divers, that's Adventures with Purpose, that's Sunshine Sonar, that's Dan Down Under, that's myself, and and eventually, you know, and so we just keep doing it.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:36.159
Like we just keep putting the boats in the water like it's a mission every every day we can, and uh, and try to bring these people home by by clearing another body of water, giving another answer to a family member um that it you can drive by that reservoir and know that she's not there or he's not there.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:46.719
And and it's a very um it's a very important mission because these families go by these bodies of water every day and go, I wonder if Danny's in there.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:48.719
I wonder if Aubrey's in there.
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:54.159
And and it's it's a torment for these families.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.440
And so we are trying to, you know, lessen that burden.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:10.480
Uh at the same time, we're hoping that we can find them in a short period of time so that we can help another family quicker.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:16.000
Um you know, there there are people there are seven individuals missing in Long Island.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.320
There are 11 people in Connecticut.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.559
Uh, there's two in Maine.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.000
Um all Vermont has been found.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.360
There's two in Massa, three in Massachusetts.
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.440
Um, and then New York has a whole different level.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.960
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and no whole different level.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:43.119
There's 30 in the Montreal, Ontario, Canada, New Brunswick, and Halifax area.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.599
Those are the that's the region I'm working.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:40:00.079
And I'm just taking them one at a time, and if nothing else, putting their, you know, getting it back in the news, making it fresh again, like talking about it from a different perspective, that these individuals are still missing.
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:09.119
And, you know, these individuals that are that are missing, that they're missing with their vehicles, and we need to start searching the bodies of water that are close to them.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:20.079
And and police are starting to set up their boats like us, you know, with the arc lab systems, with the inflatables, with the sonar sticks on both sides.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:25.440
They're I they're making identical models of what we have because we are having such success.
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.440
And how can people learn more about your organizations?
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:36.800
Well, one, you can go to adventureswithpurpose.com and or go to exploringwithmission.org.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.320
And that's the first thing.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.599
You can go on YouTube and check check us out on YouTube.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:48.079
We have about 300 videos on Exploring with the Mission, and I think 600 videos on Adventures with Purpose.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:41:05.760
I've been in, I think 75 or 80 videos of Adventures with Purpose searching for people like in Maureen Sherman, Kareem Tisdale, um Leveda and Robert Proctor, um Dale Nicholson, Robert Long, Yvonne Guven, Robert St.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:07.679
Louis, and others.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:13.760
Um, we brought home, you know, 41 people at Adventures with Purpose have come home.
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:18.320
And that's, you know, Jared Lizak and the team that was prior to me.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:25.199
And then in the last few years, Jared and I have brought it home, I think, seven, seven or eight people there.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:36.239
And all of my videos with Exploring with the Mission that are us searching for individuals on the last 40-day adventure that we did, those are all on Adventures with Purpose.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:42.559
They're not on my Exploring with the Mission channel because we found three people in third in a total of 14 days.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:56.079
And so I wanted the you know people to see what we're doing and why we're having success, you know, because again, that's now our third country that we found people in with Exploring with a Mission.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.239
And, you know, we're just trying to do our part.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:58.800
That's it.
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:05.920
Like I'm just a dad and a and a son, like like many of us, uh, and a father.
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:17.519
And I'm just going out there every day to try to make a difference with families that uh they don't have any answers, you know, and and that's what it's all these entities are doing.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.440
I mean, yes, we're on YouTube, but the that is not the reason why we do it.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:43.920
YouTube is only like uh the ability to monetize it in some way, shape, or form so that we can at least like pay for some gas or pay for the next, you know, cable that we need or the trailer that we need, or you know, get a donation for for a for some piece of of technology that would make it better.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:52.559
Um, the reality is I think I think I've brought in, I've probably spent$100,000 searching for missing persons, and I've probably raised$25,000.
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:15.920
So like, you know, this has been a it's a hobby that uh is expensive, but I also know that I've made a difference in 25 families' lives um by, you know, and have searched for over a hundred people and made a difference in those families by they have a voice, they have hope.
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:23.280
They have someone out there still searching for their loved one that they know that it won't give up until they find a clue.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.559
You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:39.199
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00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:50.000
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00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:56.079
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00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.079
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00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:10.880
In Tragedy, a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons' cases, violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult for some listeners.
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Adventures with Purpose has helped bring resolution to families who were told there was nothing left to find.
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Their work forces us to reconsider what might still be possible in cases like Audrey's, where water, time, and unanswered questions intersect.
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Today, we will learn about the realities of underwater searches, what draws teams like Bill's to cases like Audrey Heron's, and why hope doesn't expire no matter how many years have passed.
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This is Tragedy, a true crime podcast.
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Today we are welcoming Bill McIntosh to Tragedy.
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Bill is the director of Exploring with a Mission and a search specialist with Adventures with Purpose.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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Honor to be here.
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Before we start talking about the work that your organizations have done to support Audrey's family, we'd love to hear a little bit about Exploring with a Mission and Adventures with Purpose.
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So we started Exploring with a Mission after year five of doing missing person searches.
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I had located uh, I think at that point, 11 individuals either underwater in their cars or missing in swamps and mountains uh in the Northeast region, and decided that we'd build a nonprofit organization that we could uh gain funding, we could look for sponsorship and start to really grow this in a nonprofit foundation way, uh, and be almost a grant-making foundation for some of the other entities around the country that are that are doing what we're doing, which is uh dive sonar search specialists or searching for people that are missing with their vehicles.
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Uh currently we know that there are 3,000 missing persons in the country, uh, or in essence, in the world that we know of.
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Um, and we're searching for those individuals among thousands and thousands of cars that are underwater.
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And Exploring with a Mission was built specifically to help families bring answers to those families and to bring answers to communities that have lost loved ones in those communities that have not been found by law enforcement or by the families themselves.
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And they are, as we talked about originally, you know, a little while ago, they're in very logical locations.
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Um, and you know, I kind of base it down to probability.
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It's a it's a math problem.
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How far from the house are they?
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What is the closest body of water to their house?
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And which one is the most um, I guess, fluid, meaning moving uh during winter months?
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You know, where where could they have gone that makes the most logical sense that um is in their direct path home?
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And it's typically, as I said, a math problem.
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And uh exploring of the mission details all that out, creates a case file for each individual that is missing, and and we go and search.
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We we put you know action to the words, which is you know, we're in, we're gonna we're gonna see if we can find that individual.
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And tell us about a case that you're particularly proud of.
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I mean, I I think a lot, I mean every one of them, but you know, Donnie Messier was one of them, the the the red truck in Vermont, um Maureen Sherman down in Florida.
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The case that makes me, you know, I went all the way to uh Tasmania, Australia to find a man by the name of Nicholas Lease, and at the same time took a day off to go search for Dale Nicholson, but I was 17,000 miles away from my house um and my family, and um was able to bring home a man on the other side of the planet, proving that this that this math and the and the and the probability diagrams work because he was 750 yards from his house.
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Holy crap.
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For how long?
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For six and a half years.
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Yeah, so I mean, some of them have been six and a half years, uh you know, but I just found a man, my last uh person that I found 37 years, Robert St.
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Louis in Montreal, Canada.
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Uh so I've uh by between myself and Dan down under, we have found five individuals underwater together.
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Um, and then I found multiple with with Adventures for the Purpose.
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But um we found Robert St.
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Louis and Yvonne Guevin when we're in Canada, making it so that we are the international group.
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I've found people in the United States, Canada, and Australia.
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And every single one of them was literally exactly where we thought they were.
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Yeah, that it's we're just kind of looking at each other like, oh my gosh.
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Um, I think this really resonates with you, Michael, because you're very strategic, evidence-driven.
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So I can see you're just learning a little bit about mapping software.
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I think you might this might be something that you would start to think about.
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We're we're looking at that, we're trying to figure out the logical progressions of things.
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And even with one of our other cases, Ian Rogers, you know, he while he wasn't in water, he was 1.83 miles away from his last ping location and no one knew.
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Yeah, the truck.
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The truck was.
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Yeah.
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And that is what you would think, right?
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Yeah, they don't go far.
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And and the reality is most of most people go missing in a place that they know um, you know, most of these people, like unless it's nefarious activity.
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As soon as you're it's nefarious, now you're taken out of your your life pattern, your life circle, and into the life circle of the individual that did the nefarious activity.
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So now you're in into what they know.
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And so if it's if it's not if it's self-harm or if it's an accident, 95% of the time they're in their natural circle of their life.
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So, like, you know, we all go to the shopping center, to uh Macy's, to the gas station, to get ice cream, to go to the high school, to go to the college, you know, to grandma's house.
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All those pieces, when you map all those locations to the uncles, to the cousins, you put all that into the into your probability diagram, and you start to see that there's a pattern of in our life of which roads we take all the time, which roads go by water, which roads go by that special spot that that Dale listened to the to the news, or that Donnie Messier listened to NPR and and uh Paul Harvey Good Day.
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You know, like there's specific places where people spend their most time.
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Uh Robert Long in Long Island went went to the to the uh boat ramp we found him at every day to have a nip and to watch the birds.
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And that's what he did every day.
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So when his wife came and said to me, Hey, I knew he was here the whole time, but the police checked this thing fifth this ramp 50 times.
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But the difference is that you know, we've seen thousands of cars on our sonar systems, and some of these policemen are 23, 28 years old and have only seen 10 in their entire career.
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That makes a lot of sense because I I've watched quite a bit of the videos that you guys put on, and I'm always amazed at some of the detail that you know you guys pick up on.
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That when I see the image, I'm like, it doesn't look like a car to me, but then you start moving around it and hitting the side sonar.
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I was like, oh, now I see it.
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I completely see that.
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It's amazing.
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I'm really looking, you know, like I I've I've searched for for Audrey Huron multiple times, not only with Adventures with Purpose with with Jared Lizac and and the team with Kate and others, but I've also gone out there and searched myself and try to get a sense of this.
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This is a different type of case.
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She didn't, she only had 17 minutes to get home.
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Um, she had to drive from Catskill to uh to Freehold, which is literally you drive down the road, take a right on 23, and um, and literally are back on Skohari Boulevard or Skohari Drive, you know, Route 67 in minutes.
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Um, it was a foggy night when she went missing, but we're not sure if she celebrated that night, if she went to a friend's house, knowing that the kid, this is the first time that she's been out since the baby was born.
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That the first time she recently went back to work.
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She had a doctor's appointment the next day.
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Like I know everything about and every detail about that case except for where did she go when she took the right on, I think it's it's either 23 or 32.
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Which which where did she go?
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Did she take a right or did she go to a friend's house to have a cigarette and and and a drink to celebrate with a friend that she got a raise?
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Um she had talked to her husband earlier from the from the uh business phone at the nursing home.
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So but you know, he went to bed.
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He I think he told me that she he felt like you know, she was really comfortable, she was really happy that that they were all home together, and that you know, she was very excited about getting the raise, that you know, she worked really hard for it, you know, and sh they just brought her back into work after after having the baby.
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And the baby was, I think, uh 10 months old or 11 months old at the time, or maybe less.
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So um, you know, I just cases like that one, there are probably 150 tiny little ponds on the hill, meaning like little old cow pasture ponds or ponds behind rock walls.
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Um, there's ponds in the backyards of houses.
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That's the hard part about this, is that we don't know if she took a left and went to a friend's to get cigarettes and milk for the kids or to have a drink with a friend.
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We don't know if she she's in a in a very odd spot because, like this one, we don't know if nefarious activity occurred because of the individual that was working with her with her.
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Uh the son of the individual that was working with her uh was known to assault women.
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So we're not really sure what happened here, but we haven't found her in any of those 150 ponds, or they don't have the depth to hide a Jeep Cherokee.
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Yeah, one of the things that has stuck out to us when we've done uh several other interviews is they talk about this 12 miles that was thoroughly reviewed by law enforcement, by friends, family, various other organizations, and that there were no guardrails that were damaged, there was no area that looked like it came off the road, there was no vegetation or trees damaged, and so they were really struggling with even where to look.
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Well, I I think the biggest thing is we also have to realize is that the daughter came home um from Florida, um Sancia came home from Florida with the grandparents, and she was up in Selkirk, and so that's a different direction that the case took when I we went that way.
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Okay, so we went north to Selkirk, past I think it was Green Lake and past another, you know, a couple other lakes in that corner, ponds and lakes over in that corner.
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But we took that northern route and went to Selkirk.
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We also did the northern route doing the loop where we went through Freehold, through Cairo, through Freehold to Selkirk.
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Um, we've cleared everything in that circle on the thought process she's either going home or she's going to get Sancia because she has a doctor's appointment the next day.
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We then cleared everything on Skolhari and then and through the reservoirs on the notion that she went the back way.
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We then went and looked at it from a nefarious activity that the uh coworker's son abducted her and that she could possibly be in one of the um in the the rivers south of Cairo.
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Um, and so we searched all those.
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Um we went up the the Catskill River.
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We went up the something Kill River, Skelly Killer.
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There's so many different ones there.
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Cotterskill, Cotterskill.
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We went up the Cotterskill River as far as we could until we got to dry ground.
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Um we did all the the bridges.
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Uh we did the the section just at the bottom of the hill on the Cotterskill, which is filled with logs.
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Like we've searched every body of water that that we could possibly think of that she could get into, but we have not searched backyards.
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Um and you know, because it's you know, we have to knock on the door, say hello, um, you know, and see if we can, you know, gain access to those ponds with our gas engines or electric engines.
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Um, and I think that's the next stage of this is that people are gonna have to like if they knew, if you knew Audrey Haran and you have a pond in your backyard, you're gonna have we we're gonna have to check it just to make sure that she didn't drive into your into your driveway at you know, you know, wanting to say hello at 11 o'clock at night because she got a raise and wanted to celebrate with you.
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And next thing you know, she she backed in by accident in the dark in the fog.
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And and that's the concern we have is that she's just in a place just off the beaten path that we haven't seen um because it's in the backyard of someone's house that she was going to say hello to.
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And it could be one of her friends, it could be her ex-husband, it could be your ex-boyfriend, uh, it could be, we have no idea.
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Um, we we checked the ponds uh at her her husband's house.
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Um, we checked the ponds at the golf course, we checked all the ponds uh on that road, and and could we have missed her?
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Yes.
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Um, you know, we almost missed Donnie Messier.
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He was, you know, it was the way that the truck was filled with debris on the side, you know, and the fact that you couldn't maintain a uh proper RPMs because of the river, you know, you we almost missed him.
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Um, you know, we almost missed um Yvonne Gwen.
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You know, it his sonar image looked like a dragon on the, you know, like it was this big yellow dragon, and then when we went back, that was just one of the tires sticking up uh, you know, in the sonar image, and we came back, we came at a different angle.
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Um when I went to Australia the year before, Dan had done Australia and had done the Derwent River in Tasmania, and he said, you know, Dale's not there, and I went, that's the number one logical spot for it.
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Let's go back over there.
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He goes, No, I already did it.
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I went, let's go back over it.
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Boom, that's where he was.
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And he goes, I must have missed him behind the tree.
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So, like, you know, it we're not perfect, you know, we're really good at what we do because we've seen cars so many times, but you know, we could have missed her um in in one of these bodies of water, but I don't think so.
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I mean, we with two sets of eyes on it, it makes it even me, you know, more um, you know, it's more more chances that we're gonna find you if there's two sets of eyes on the sonar systems.
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You know, so I don't know.
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I'm not I'm not sure where Audrey went, you know, and and that's the biggest thing is is we've got to map more of her life patterns.
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You know, I don't know where her ex-husband lived.
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I don't know where you know Marie and others lived at the time and and her friends lived at the time.
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I only know where her parents lived, her husband lived, the golf course was, and her work was.
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Like I I have very little information to go on to map her life patterns.
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So this is a really interesting conversation, very helpful for me because I was not thinking outside of the typical route.
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Like for me, it's 11 o'clock at night, it's late, it's a little foggy.
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I'm only thinking about what I would do.
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And I would probably just want to go home.
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But I love that you've opened up this thought of perhaps she went to a friend's house or, you know, took maybe went to go get some milk somewhere or something.
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Can you you talked a little bit about Selkirk and um related to Sancia coming back from Florida?
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What is your theory there?
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Like perhaps Audrey wasn't planning on going back home, that she was heading somewhere else to meet Sancia.
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Is that where you're going with that?
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, like, because of the fact that she had a doctor's appointment the next day, she hadn't seen her daughter in 30 days.
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So her oldest daughter had just come home and she had been with in the RV with with grandma and grandpa, her parents, uh um, Audrey's parents, you know, and so they had just returned that afternoon, and Ma and Audrey went to work, couldn't pick her up before work.
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And the thought process is would she go because Jeff and the kids were sleeping, the babies were sleeping at the house and they were comfortable, would she go to Selkirk to pick up Sancia be because of the fact that she had a doctor's appointment?
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Because if it was, let's say the doctor's appointment was 11.
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Well, now she's not picking her up until four or five o'clock in the afternoon.
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Um, you know, and you know, like there there's been the no notion, like, you know, maybe she was um I I I there is no self-harm in in in my estimation in this.
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Um, you know, that this is either an accident or somebody uh did something to Audrey in you know by getting into that car in the parking lot.
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You know, we've checked the Hudson River, we've checked, you know, like I short of just going into the auto body place in in Catskill and walking row by row until I can find a black Cherokee.
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Um, you know, like I I just don't know if if that car is in water.
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Um, you know, because again, like you know, there's not a lot of water in Selkirk where uh where Sancia was.
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Uh there's a stream out back.
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There was an old back in the day, like what her father did was, or her stepfather did, was he ran cars.
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Like he was a he had one of the transport trailers with cars, and it's still sitting in the yard today, and you can see it from Google Earth.
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Um, he was a car transport guy because behind him was an airport and an auto salvage yard.
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So like I looked at everything.
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I looked at the stepfather, I looked at the father, I looked at the guy from work, I looked at it from the standpoint of the ex-husband, we looked at it from the husband standpoint.
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Like, we looked at it as a travel to Sancia, we looked at it as a travel straight home, we looked at it as an abduction, and then we looked at it as okay, maybe she went to get at the milk and go up, you know, one exit for further than Cairo, that she decided to go get milk for the kids because you know the babies needed milk in the morning and they didn't have enough milk.
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Uh and she didn't have any cigarettes on her, and she didn't have her wallet, but she had always had money in her license.
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And and the reason was because people had been stealing from the uh lockers at the retirement home.
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So, like those pieces I put together and I went, okay, well, maybe she's just going to get cigarettes because she didn't have any cigarettes, because the cigarettes were on the shelf at the house.
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The pocketbook was on the shelf of the house.
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Um, you know, I'm and I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe she had car problems because the tire was fixed.
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And, you know, you look at it from the standpoint of where could you have a mishap with the tire that could be fatal?
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And there's only a couple spots that there's a downhill run where if you blew a tire and you went off the road, that you went into that body of water.
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Um, you know, and again, some some of these bodies of water are in the backyard of houses or on this, you know, that are private property and that I have not been able to get into.
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And and she very well could be in a private property location because you know, you know, she in accident scenario, not as much.
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Uh self-harm, I I think, you know, one half of one percent chance.
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Uh nefarious activity, fifty to seventy percent chance.
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Um, because it's not.
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It's just it disappeared.
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You know, and whether whether it be something in her life that caused it.
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But I mean, she was celebrating that night.
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You know, she's was celebrating the fact that she got that raise and you know, and she was back to work and she was happy to be back to work.
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You know, I so I I just don't know at this point like what happened to Audrey.
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And it's, you know, for Jeff and for Sancia and for the the kids, like, and for Marie and all the friends, like we just want to find her and and you know, we're we're gonna keep searching for her.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:48.000
I'm gonna I'm gonna probably redo some of the things I did because you know, just like Dale Nicholson in Tasmania, you know, we missed them and we found them the year two.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.559
You are describing um some of the challenges of searching in that area.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:23:02.799
We're a little bit familiar with that area because we've spent some time in New England and drawn, you know, gone up and over, I guess not really a pass, but into the Catskill Mountains.
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.160
Um, can you describe some of the challenges of searching in that area?
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.319
I would imagine it's kind of like windy roads and steep drop-offs.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.079
Can you tell us sort of what that looks like?
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.160
Paint a picture for listeners.
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.160
Well, I think the biggest thing is that it's it's more swampy.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:24.799
Um, meaning the hillside, let's go hari, is kind of a swampy area.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:37.920
Um, you know, and yeah, there are ponds that are in corners around on the bends coming off of 23 and 32 that that have some, you know, you don't know the depth.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:42.079
Meaning the sonar ball says it's five, but it might be seven.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:44.880
And can that vehicle hide in seven?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:45.440
Yes.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:46.880
Can it hide in five?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:52.640
Probably not, unless you know it's at an angle, um, or or it's sunk in the mud.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:58.160
And you know, it's a very um how do I explain it?
00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.680
Like the the waters are dark brown for one.
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:10.319
You know, when the when the mud comes off the cat skills, it it goes into the rivers, into the cotter skill, and it's really dark.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.160
The cat skill rivers, like you can see the bottom.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:16.799
Like it's you can see it for miles.
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:18.079
It's very clear.
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.640
You can see the bottom on Google Earth for miles and miles and miles.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:38.640
It's it's those back ponds and lakes that are muddy from runoff and or covered in in um, I would say, you know, different types of mosses and and grasses and different things, um, lily pads.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:46.400
And so like we've searched a bunch of different spots that you know we could she have gone into some of them?
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:47.200
Yes.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:56.640
I mean recently Adam Brown um was down, I think it was in either Arkansas or Alabama, I can't remember, but he found a BMW.
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:05.599
It was the number one bridge that they thought that this guy should be at because it was the first bridge on the way home from the restaurant on the bar.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.799
And he threw the sonar ball in and it said seven feet or six feet.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.799
And, you know, it was all covered in in lily pads.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.759
Well, that BMW was there.
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:27.359
What happened was is he skipped across the water and then jammed into the bank at the angle and was under the lily pads, and then the lily pads came over the top of the vehicle.
00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.799
So the only way to find that vehicle was to throw a magnet.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:41.920
So we learned from Adam Brown in that experience that five feet, six feet of water, you can still hide a car if it's if it goes in at the right angle.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:47.119
You know, the same thing with Whisper in California, she was under the bridge.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.119
Like her vehicle went under the bridge with her and her baby in it.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:26:03.039
And it took, you know, Jared looking at an angle on sonar, looking under the bridge where the water was all the way to the bridge bottom, and then saying, Hey, I got a vehicle under the bridge.
00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:06.240
And the diver went down and goes, It's Whisper's vehicle.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:09.839
And so, like, we're we're not perfect.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.759
We're we're we're learning still too.
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:20.640
Like, all of us have been doing this as a hobby since 2018, as a bunch of dads that want to help families find answers.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:37.680
Um, and you know, on YouTube, but the reality is that we we're still learning where we should be looking, or or when we know that there's a possibility that that's the number one bridge, but it it it doesn't look deep enough.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:49.440
We've got to double check it sometimes, and sometimes we just gotta throw a magnet to make sure that there's no magnetic, you know, uh grab in in those lily pads, just like Adam Brown did.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.119
What do you think your next um step for Audrey is?
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.599
Like what is what is the next thing that you want to search?
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:14.319
I I'm I want to search, excuse me, I want to work that corner pond as you come up the road from the transmission place.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:23.279
There's a couple ponds in the um right off of I think I can't remember if it's 23 comes across to 32, or if it's 32 and 23.
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.359
I always forget because they're both the same numbers.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:25.759
Right.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:26.880
But yeah.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:47.200
Um so when you're sliding in from the transmission company, that was the last known location that was she was seen uh with the police officer who was sitting at the transmission company, said he was she was going up towards freehold, and he thinks that she was going to take a right on, or that she was that she took a right on this one road.
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.960
There's one pond on the bend in the turn that I want to double check.
00:27:51.200 --> 00:28:03.359
There's a pond at the top of the hill before you get to the center of freehold, um, uh where the cul-de-sac ends in the pond down at the bottom in the private driveway.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.640
Like those are the ones that I want to check next.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.319
And then I'm I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna do Skolhari again.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:18.000
Like just in case Nick Ren or and Jared missed them, missed him.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:25.279
Um, because we learned recently that, you know, I I didn't check the Mansfield Hollow.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:30.559
Okay, and I checked everything else in the entire region for Robert Kavanaugh.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:36.000
I cleared every body of water, every river, stream, creek, pond, everything.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:41.759
The only place I didn't check was the only one that had the depth, Mansfield Hollow.
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:50.319
And that's where Robert Kavanaugh was, and it was the one place that Jared and the team, Nick and Dan, had checked.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:03.519
And I mean, yes, Robert was his vehicle, his little B2000, was in a hole in the grasses 150 yards from the bank, which means that he drove out on the ice.
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.079
Oh, I was like, that's really far.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.160
Yeah, he drove out on the ice and then went through the ice and and disappeared.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:24.480
And so when those guys did what they did, they missed him because he was just outside the normal pattern of what we've seen in in vehicles that float.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:42.240
And so, you know, like we're learning every single time we do a search that there's there might be a different scenario that we're missing, you know, and like in the Robert Kavanaugh, it was ice in the BMW with the gentleman down in Alabama.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:55.519
It was he came in at such a high rate of speed that when he hit, hit the bank, and everything exploded over the top of him, and now all the lily pads were like back into their formation above the vehicle, like nothing ever happened.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.920
It was crazy, and so the only way to find him is by magnet.
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:08.079
So, like with Audrey, we might have missed her by just uh saying, you know what, that pond's not deep enough.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:09.599
You know what?
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.799
That pond's in a private driveway, we're not gonna search that one.
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:25.920
And so yeah, I mean, she could still be on a normal travel pattern on that hillside between Catskill, Cairo, and Freehold in that in that nook somewhere.
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:41.200
I mean, until we know that every pond is truly cleared with whether they're drained or they're you know, cleared with sonar or with LIDAR, that I I I don't discount that we could have missed her.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:53.680
Earlier you were um discussing some percentages of some the I'll call them theories, the percentage that this theory could be um what happened to Audrey.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:00.960
What really stood out to me was you talked about a 50 to 70 percent chance that something nefarious may have happened to her.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:04.079
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:13.839
There's a lot going on in that region with um if you look at young women that are been abducted.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:23.119
Um she was a pretty woman, uh, she has that, you know, uh in itself is is an issue.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:30.079
Two, she's leaving work at 11 o'clock at night, kind of a different kind of environment in Catskill.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.000
And so something could happen.
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:43.359
At the same time, the coworker was a known person to police and law enforcement for accosting women.
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:58.960
Um the fact that she is uh remarried, got new children, children with one father, children with another father, that adds to your you know, percentage of that there's a chance that someone's someone's mad.
00:31:59.359 --> 00:31:59.680
Okay.
00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:06.960
Um at the same time, if she goes to a gas station, she disappeared.
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:11.359
Like I I'm the normally the guy that this is always an accident, right?
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:12.559
It's always an accident.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.680
Like there's or or yes, they did it themselves.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:25.039
Like that's typically like 50% of people that we are searching for self-harmed, they they put themselves in a body of water.
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:36.400
Okay, so 50% of the remaining is either accident or nefarious or um something you know outside the norm occurred on that day.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.720
And so with Audrey, I mean, she's a beautiful woman.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:45.920
She's late at night, she's driving a car that has no spare tire.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:53.680
Um, she doesn't have her cigarettes, she doesn't have her her, you know, any credit cards, she doesn't have her wallet, she doesn't have her phone.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:59.359
She's already all those pieces right there in itself put you in a bad place.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:09.920
Um and then, you know, she's celebrating her uh, you know, her new her job and her increase in her pay.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.799
Um, you know, what occurred?
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:13.599
I mean, we don't know.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:18.240
Like she could have gone to a friend's house and something happened there and she never made it home.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.160
That something happened at 12 o'clock at night.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.720
That car could be in Pennsylvania.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:24.000
We don't really know.
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:33.599
Um, we do know that also like that she had, and again, I I I got this from Jeff, her husband.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:43.759
You know, she and again, I just be careful with what you say, but you know, she had a lump on her breast the day before, and that's through the doctor's appointment.
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:59.119
And we don't believe that that's a reason that she would ever I mean she was in great spirits, but you know, she she was nervous about the next day's um appointment with the doctor because she had a lump on her breast.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:14.800
And so you did she go somewhere that no one knows, did she go to check on like to drive by the doctor's office that she was going to the next day because she'd never been there before, or we're not sure.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.000
You know, did she go to like there are not a lot of bodies of water in the Cairo region?
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:34.800
Meaning there's a few places that you go, like but from the standpoint of if you stop in there to get milk and someone does something, I mean she's not a big woman, she's tiny.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:46.880
You know, and so that that was my my concern was that you know we're not looking in her natural pattern, we're looking in the killer's natural pattern.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:35:00.719
Yes, as you were describing those for me, I was it it made me start thinking about risk factors, which is something we discuss quite frequently when we are trying to support a family, is you know, what are the risk factors?
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:07.280
And you're talking about someone who's a single at the time, single lady driving home.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.599
She's obviously married, but she's driving home alone.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:10.880
It's dark.
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:15.599
There are several other things that she may have been going to do, no cell phone.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:20.639
Sounds like she'd left her purse at home when she potentially went to work that day because of the theft.
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.519
And and I hear what you're saying about her daughter coming home, right?
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:31.440
If she's been gone for 30 days, and my daughter used to take these uh road trips with with my mom, and I was excited for her to come home.
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:42.320
So I can see the idea of, you know, did she just drive there to pick her up so that she's not waiting an entire next day to be able to see her daughter who's been gone for a while.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.400
So I mean, you see all these things.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:49.679
Yeah, I would I mean I would automatically go to pick up my kid by a female dirty day.
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:50.800
Absolutely.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:51.440
100%.
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.719
And I'd say it was grandma for the night one more time at that house.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:02.000
You know, and and I've been to that house, you know, and it's it's not it's not Jeff's house.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:03.119
I'll tell you that right now.
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:06.960
Meaning, you know, it was I'm sure it was dirty then.
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:08.960
It was in an auto salvage yard.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.920
I'm sure the first thing I would do is go get my kid.
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:21.440
Okay, so um, you know, and I um this is her daughter, like Sansier was was her firstborn.
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:29.199
Like this, you know, so like I just just don't see her waiting at the same time, like knowing that she had a doctor's appointment the next day.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.800
But again, like I am I'm gonna clear the hill again.
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:36.559
I'm gonna go and do it again.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:41.679
I'm gonna do it until I I either exhaust it or I find her.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:48.320
You know, and and that's the I think that's the biggest thing about what exploring, you know, going back to the beginning of this conversation.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:54.719
Exploring with a mission is is always on the mission of of trying to to make a difference in these cases.
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:55.840
And we don't quit.
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.199
We we I don't give up.
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.639
Like I've gone back for Robert Kavanaugh seven times.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.440
I've gone back for Audrey five times.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:12.400
Um, I'm gonna do you know, Cabrera in Long Island, and we're gonna do uh you know the cases in Maine.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.599
Like I'm going back up to Canada in the spring.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:28.239
Um, we we keep working at it and putting in the effort and taking the action because without the action, the you know, no we're not gonna find them.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.039
We're not gonna find any of these people without taking the action.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.119
That's the thing about adventures with purpose and exploring the mission and these other entities.
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:46.239
We are putting the boats in the water and we are consistently every day trying to locate another vehicle in the region of a missing person that possibly could break the case.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:53.119
And and I think by doing it the way that we're doing it, we're having such a success rate.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:38:03.679
I mean, in the US, we and in Canada and Australia, we've now found a total of over 100 people underwater in their cars.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:17.599
And that's Adam Brown and Nug, that's Chaos Divers, that's Adventures with Purpose, that's Sunshine Sonar, that's Dan Down Under, that's myself, and and eventually, you know, and so we just keep doing it.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:36.159
Like we just keep putting the boats in the water like it's a mission every every day we can, and uh, and try to bring these people home by by clearing another body of water, giving another answer to a family member um that it you can drive by that reservoir and know that she's not there or he's not there.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:46.719
And and it's a very um it's a very important mission because these families go by these bodies of water every day and go, I wonder if Danny's in there.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:48.719
I wonder if Aubrey's in there.
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:54.159
And and it's it's a torment for these families.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.440
And so we are trying to, you know, lessen that burden.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:10.480
Uh at the same time, we're hoping that we can find them in a short period of time so that we can help another family quicker.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:16.000
Um you know, there there are people there are seven individuals missing in Long Island.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.320
There are 11 people in Connecticut.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.559
Uh, there's two in Maine.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.000
Um all Vermont has been found.
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.360
There's two in Massa, three in Massachusetts.
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.440
Um, and then New York has a whole different level.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.960
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and no whole different level.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:43.119
There's 30 in the Montreal, Ontario, Canada, New Brunswick, and Halifax area.
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.599
Those are the that's the region I'm working.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:40:00.079
And I'm just taking them one at a time, and if nothing else, putting their, you know, getting it back in the news, making it fresh again, like talking about it from a different perspective, that these individuals are still missing.
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:09.119
And, you know, these individuals that are that are missing, that they're missing with their vehicles, and we need to start searching the bodies of water that are close to them.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:20.079
And and police are starting to set up their boats like us, you know, with the arc lab systems, with the inflatables, with the sonar sticks on both sides.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:25.440
They're I they're making identical models of what we have because we are having such success.
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.440
And how can people learn more about your organizations?
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:36.800
Well, one, you can go to adventureswithpurpose.com and or go to exploringwithmission.org.
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.320
And that's the first thing.
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:41.599
You can go on YouTube and check check us out on YouTube.
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:48.079
We have about 300 videos on Exploring with the Mission, and I think 600 videos on Adventures with Purpose.
00:40:48.320 --> 00:41:05.760
I've been in, I think 75 or 80 videos of Adventures with Purpose searching for people like in Maureen Sherman, Kareem Tisdale, um Leveda and Robert Proctor, um Dale Nicholson, Robert Long, Yvonne Guven, Robert St.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:07.679
Louis, and others.
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:13.760
Um, we brought home, you know, 41 people at Adventures with Purpose have come home.
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:18.320
And that's, you know, Jared Lizak and the team that was prior to me.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:25.199
And then in the last few years, Jared and I have brought it home, I think, seven, seven or eight people there.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:36.239
And all of my videos with Exploring with the Mission that are us searching for individuals on the last 40-day adventure that we did, those are all on Adventures with Purpose.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:42.559
They're not on my Exploring with the Mission channel because we found three people in third in a total of 14 days.
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:56.079
And so I wanted the you know people to see what we're doing and why we're having success, you know, because again, that's now our third country that we found people in with Exploring with a Mission.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.239
And, you know, we're just trying to do our part.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:58.800
That's it.
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:05.920
Like I'm just a dad and a and a son, like like many of us, uh, and a father.
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:17.519
And I'm just going out there every day to try to make a difference with families that uh they don't have any answers, you know, and and that's what it's all these entities are doing.
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:23.440
I mean, yes, we're on YouTube, but the that is not the reason why we do it.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:43.920
YouTube is only like uh the ability to monetize it in some way, shape, or form so that we can at least like pay for some gas or pay for the next, you know, cable that we need or the trailer that we need, or you know, get a donation for for a for some piece of of technology that would make it better.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:52.559
Um, the reality is I think I think I've brought in, I've probably spent$100,000 searching for missing persons, and I've probably raised$25,000.
00:42:53.199 --> 00:43:15.920
So like, you know, this has been a it's a hobby that uh is expensive, but I also know that I've made a difference in 25 families' lives um by, you know, and have searched for over a hundred people and made a difference in those families by they have a voice, they have hope.
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:23.280
They have someone out there still searching for their loved one that they know that it won't give up until they find a clue.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.559
You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:39.199
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00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:50.000
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00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:56.079
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00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.079
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