WEBVTT
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Yeah, I never had a client look at me weird for asking a dumb question or anything like that.
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I did have a client say that was really good for the question for a lady.
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That's a good question I thought of.
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And I still give them hard time for that, but it's funny.
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Welcome back to Torch Talk, the show where we spotlight bold leaders growing businesses and communities with grit and purpose.
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Today's guest is Julia Cooser, Director of Client Success at Fierce Creative Solutions.
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Julia has been with Fierce for three years and has become an integral part of who we are today.
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She helps shape how we serve our clients every day, which brings us to today's conversation.
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At Fierce, one of our core values is continually growing, which means we are always reading or learning something new.
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This year we read Getting Naked by Patrick Lencioni, which will be our topic of discussion for today.
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Welcome to Torch Talk, Julia.
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Thanks for having me.
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Welcome back.
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Thank you, my little dynamic duo partner.
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Yes.
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It's been a minute since we've had an interview together, so I'm looking forward to our discussion today.
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For those who are listening who maybe have not read or heard about the book Getting Naked, it sounds a little inappropriate.
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Tell everybody what it's about.
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Yeah, everybody jokes about don't read it if you're on a plane or if you're in public or one.
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Or just at home with children.
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Because my children were like, what are you reading right now?
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CRMs was like, Yeah, I can't read it around my daughter.
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Um the book is just about how you manage uh how you manage relationships and clients and the communication that you have with those clients.
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We have now uh read it, we both read it.
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Actually, you read it first, then you gave it to me, and then we were like, hmm, I think everybody needs to read it because whether you are in sales or account management or not, you could be at any role within Fierce for sure.
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And I think anybody who talks to other people or you have to manage relationships, especially in a business setting, the the premise or the ideas inside this book are very helpful.
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So we all kind of struggle a little bit with being authentic and transparent and how I manage this while I'm protecting my company, um, but also serving the client that I'm working with.
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Yeah, I took it really as a communication tool and how you just manage any relationship, like you said.
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So you can internal relationships, external relationships, even though it was based around a consulting company, um, it can be really used for any type of any type of business.
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Okay.
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So talk us through um the book idea.
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There were kind of three, I think, three pain points or three main points of the book.
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Let's kind of just talk about those um and dig into each one of them individually then.
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So there were three fears uh that the book talked about.
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So the first one was the fear of losing the business, the fear of being embarrassed, and then the fear of feeling inferior.
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Okay, so the fear of losing the business, when you were reading the book, how do you see that playing out from the Fierce Creative Solutions perspective?
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So, within the our role in particular as a CRM, I think the main thing is um our job is to maintain our client relationship and not lose the business.
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So that's just plain and simple of losing that client.
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How can you think of times when you have been working with a client and you were afraid of losing the business, but you didn't apply what you learned in this book?
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Like when when you were doing it wrong.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Give me some examples.
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So I think when I first started, I there was the fear of um knowing that uh what's the saying the client's always right?
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So being that yes man, whatever the client says, yep, yep, we can do that.
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Or even if the client what they wanted to do wasn't right, but you just you come from unlearning the thought that the client is always right was the hardest thing, I think, for me when I first started.
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So especially being a new in the role and you don't want to mess up, you don't want to lose the business.
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So you need you think you're saying the right things to keep the business, but you're really saying all the things to lose the business.
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It's not that the clients aren't important, but really sometimes they don't actually understand what they need.
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Yeah.
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Or what they need will not help them achieve their goals.
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There's a uh discrepancy between the goals and their request.
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And so in the client relationship goal, if you're afraid of losing the business, or sorry, in the client relationship role, if you are afraid of losing the business, then you will not respond appropriately when you're in those situations.
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So to be able to bring the client the hard truth or just the truth, whether it's hard or not, and be able to say that confidently really changes the relationship that you have with them and also the success down the road.
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Because if you're promising or giving them what they want, but then like you can't actually do what they need later, maybe because they don't have the budget now, because you spend it on something else, or because what they're requesting is pushing you in the wrong direction, um, we'll end up losing them eventually.
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Yeah.
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So the fear of losing the business will actually make you lose the business.
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Exactly.
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So you have to, it's so counter counterintuitive that you have to like really uh change those internal mindsets in order to manage the relationship the way that you should.
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Putting your mindset that if a client wants to do something and you tell them yes and then it doesn't meet their goals, they're gonna leave.
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But if you tell them no, they're either going to get mad and leave or say yes, and it's gonna actually reach what their goal is and strengthen that relationship and make it even stronger.
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So just thinking of it that way.
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At fierce, we serve primarily um service-based businesses, mostly contractors.
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Can you think of situations where uh it might apply to them if they're working with their clients?
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How would it show up in the business if they might be afraid to lose their client?
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How we manage our clients and how our clients manage our clients, especially from that sales perspective, um, I we always think of ourselves as a consultant.
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So we are a client's consultant when it comes to marketing.
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And I have the same conversation over and over with my clients on how what their sales process is, is their prospect clients come to them seeking advice and looking to them as a consultant.
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So even from just that sales process, if they are just honest with the client and saying, you know, you could do this, but it's gonna cost you this, or you're gonna run into this problem, or no, you can't do that, and it might be what you want, but that's really not a good solution, um, having those honest conversations up front and then being okay if they either choose to go with you in those recommendations or try to find somebody else that can do what they want.
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Contractors really have to work a lot to build trust.
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Actually, marketers do too.
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Yeah.
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We're in the very similar boat.
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Yeah.
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But when you have to work really hard to build trust, if you are not honest up front with a client because you're afraid you're gonna lose that sale, then um you can erode the trust that you have built there or or miss the opportunity to build the trust if by saying, Hey, like this is actually what you need.
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Maybe somebody is requesting.
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I have a good example just because I have a roofing background.
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Somebody might be requesting a quote for a metal roof, but they have um a cathedral ceiling, and cathedral ceilings are not always the best situation to put a metal roof on.
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Maybe they have no ventilation, those types of things.
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One contractor might go say, Yep, yep, yep, because they know that they can lock down the sale, give them a metal roof.
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And another one is gonna really talk that homeowner through the situation.
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The homeowner may still choose to do the wrong thing, but when they do, and then the roof is leaking and they're having problems, they're gonna remember and maybe actually call the contractor who was honest with them in the first place.
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Yeah.
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So being honest um doesn't always get you the business.
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Like that's just the truth.
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But at the end of the day, I think you're able to walk away feeling better about being very upfront.
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You we're able to feel better about how we serve our clients where the position that we're in, and not feel like we're kind of like walking around with our arm behind our back all the time.
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So I think our clients would feel the same way if they figured out how to apply that transparency in their sales process.
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Yeah, same thing with just like one of my constru um commercial roofing clients.
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Map how they map out a roof for a client and really talk through what needs to be done now, what can wait, what doesn't need to be done, and being honest and what can wait or doesn't need to be done will obviously not make them money, but the client sees that honesty and appreciates it and feels like they can trust them to go with them.
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Okay, what was pain point number two?
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So the second fear is fear of feeling embarrassed.
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This is an interesting one to think about.
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Um, maybe because I put myself out there so much, I'm being a mom of four girls who are like mom all the time about everything that I do, I just really don't think about getting embarrassed anymore.
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I mean, there's definitely things that later I'm like, I shouldn't have said it like that.
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Or I, you know, I think later, but it's not quite embarrassed, it's more like, I don't know, self-analyzation of what I could do better.
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But think about are there any areas where you have not done something or not managed a client because you were afraid of being embarrassed?
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But I think so.
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In the book, it also talks about different um practices to do the practice of getting naked.
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And one of the practices is asking the dumb question and not being afraid to dumb the ask the dumb question.
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So, again, in the beginning of starting here, feeling like you need to know everything and know everything about your your client's business.
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And when you first start working with a client, you're not gonna know everything about their business, um, whether you've been here a long time or not, just because they're a new client, a new business.
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So, not being afraid to ask them a bunch of questions, or no matter what it sounds like or what the question is, um, I think is really important.
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Something that I tell now of our new um CRMs is don't be afraid to ask the dumb question because it's gonna make you sound like you know what you're talking more to ask that those questions.
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So, whether that's their sales process, what does this mean, to uh terminology of their business, you're not supposed to know their business inside and out.
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That's the whole part of the onboarding system.
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And the first few months is to getting to know those clients.
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That's what I was thinking of.
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It's is when we are working with our clients who are in contracting, they're working um in very specific trades, we don't always know exactly what they're talking about.
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Um, so not being afraid to ask those clarifying questions like, what is soffit?
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What is fascia?
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What do you mean by this?
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Like, why or why do you need to do this?
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And really asking those questions, um, it number one, it allows us to understand what they do better, but it also builds the relationship.
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So actually, that's strengthened.
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You're showing the client that you're truly interested in really understanding who they are on a deeper level.
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Um, can you think of any situations again where our our clients or the a contractor might apply that when they're out selling their service with a homeowner?
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Yeah, I think when a um homeowner is asking for um for something in a particular way, um, asking them why they want it a particular way, like what are they planning on doing with that?
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Why, you know, what what is the reasoning behind that?
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Not pretending that you know the reasoning behind the reason that they want that.
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It can help the contractor give their client more advice on what really they need to do.
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Um other examples of uh other examples, but I think also our clients really appreciate when we ask them more questions.
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A lot of our clients are nerds of their own business.
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We had one client call, one of us a nerd, likes to nerd out with them.
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Um, so I think they appreciate when we want to know more about their business.
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And even when we bring the rest of our internal team to their business to learn more and ask questions, I think they really value that um that we're really interested in learning about their business.
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It is uh a little bit crazy.
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Starting fierce five years ago, I didn't expect.
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I came in a roofing siding windows, I would not expert, but pretty experienced.
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I didn't expect um to learn all these industries.
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So you really can't know everything.
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So yeah, nerding out uh on the different things that they do and really wanting to go deep with them.
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It helps them um feel like again, like we care about them and that we actually want to learn what they do.
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Uh some of the clients we don't uh, you know, are are a lot more specific.
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So we have some employees, that's why we have them divide us divided up into teams so that we can manage that across tierce, not just like one person knowing everything, but when we have a team of multiple people working with them together.
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Um, I think that we with leading a younger team, um, they also have an opportunity here to not be embarrassed by asking those questions.
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So, as a client relationship manager, we're out there with the clients all the time.
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Our team also needs to be really comfortable asking those questions.
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So, like you might understand where the client's at, but not everybody on the team might understand that.
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So it's just an area of opportunity for all of us should just get over the fear of being embarrassed, period, and the whole entire world.
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Like, who really cares at the end of the day?
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Every person in the world is actually weird.
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There is no normal, like there, yeah.
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I don't know why we all think that we're trying to perform to a standard when there is no real standard.
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Yeah.
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I've never had a client look at me weird for asking a dumb question or anything like that.
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I did have a client say that was a really good question for a lady because of the question I thought of.
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And I still give them a hard time for that, but it's fun.
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That's the joy of being women in construction, right?
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He was impressed that I that I thought of that question to ask.
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That's what we have to stay up late doing our homework on so we can impress our contractor clients.
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Exactly.
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So we sound like we know what we're talking about.
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Okay, what is the third fear?
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The third fear is the fear of feeling inferior.
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Okay, so do you have examples of how that plays out here at Fears or with our clients?
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Examples from the book.
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I'm gonna read off a couple of the practices of uh getting naked.
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So never worrying about getting the credit, ask for help when you need it instead of projecting false competence, um, entering the danger, so leaning into uncomfortable conversations instead of tiptoeing around them.
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I think those three things really kind of speak to that fear.
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So if there's a situation where I can pick up tons of um having to having to have those difficult conversations with the client um and just kind of laying everything out always ends up being better on the on the flip side.
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We always have to enter those relationships from what we call equal business stature.
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Yeah.
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Um, when you're in the position of serving the client and the client is always right, it puts them on a pedestal and it puts us below them.
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And this is true for everybody else.
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When you want to partner with a client, you have to be seen as equal to them.
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When you see yourself as equal to them, you will operate in a different way, which really summarizes all three of these pain points.
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You will not um have a fear of being embarrassed, you're not gonna fear losing the business, and you're not going to feel inferior because at the end of the day, your value and who you are as a person is not affected by whether you're doing uh, you know, business with them or not.
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So operating um from a place where your value is not affected really changes uh how you manage that relationship.
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And so equal business doctor is something that we say around here all the time.
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We use that in training with our client relationship managers.
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It's not something we expect everybody to know right away because it really is a habit that has to be built.
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You have to get comfortable.
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I feel like that's all I coach on.
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Yeah.
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I mean, everybody, it's like what I coach you on, new client relationship managers.
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Um, and I'm fine with that because I I understand my practice was working in a roofing company for eight years with five business owners who were serial entrepreneurs and always had new ideas.
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Literally started, um, I think at one point my direct supervisor or boss had like four businesses on his own and other guys would start one.
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So I just had to be really comfortable sitting at a table of basically our clients.
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So I had to get comfortable owning my space, not feeling that you know I am any less than them and being able to bring those ideas.
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I had to practice that a lot before we started fear.
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So that takes time and I'm okay with it taking time.
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But it is, it's if there's something that could be learned the fastest, it's that.
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Like, you know, we we had a meeting this week with our client relationship team, and I looked at one person, I said, just don't be afraid to lose the business.
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Like if this doesn't go the right way, you're giving them the right advice.
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Just know it's okay with me if something doesn't work out.
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Like, you know, giving them the permission to go out and do what actually needs done for the client, um, it changes the way that we communicate with them and what we do.
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I think that was the biggest piece of advice when I first started, because obviously being new, you don't want to lose any clients or lose business, but getting your permission that it's okay if they leave because of if they're leaving because they don't agree with our recommendations or they don't want to do the way that we suggest that they should do, that's okay.
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That maybe that's just that means that they're not a good fit.
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It could mean so many other things other than we quote failed.
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Yes.
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Permission to fail is a core principle at fear.
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So it has to be.
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It's really, I mean, marketing is really about failure overall.
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But in business, you listen to all the experts.
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You have to learn how to fail fast.
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Um, you have to be okay with learning from each one of those experiences.
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And there might be some client relationships that we have lost that we would have wished worked out differently or that we would want to have back.
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But the end of the day, you know, there's no regrets in life, right?
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Like we just have to learn from all of those situations, figure out how to grow from that.
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And then how are we going to manage our clients moving forward better?
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Yeah.
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If anything, I think it helps us to find better, you know, who our best partners are.
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What are the type of clients that we or what are the type of things that we want to look for in a client?
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Um, it just helps us vet to know who our good partnerships are.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:50.000
Okay.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.200
So you had a list of other practices for getting naked.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.440
Kind of run us through some other highlights.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:56.000
Okay.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.960
So making suggestions or offer even at the risk of being wrong.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.400
So that kind of goes into the dumb question, but also not being afraid to throw out ideas.
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.400
Um, it may stick, it may be crazy, doesn't make any sense, but just it just throwing that idea out there.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.880
And then a lot of times, even if that isn't a good idea, it's gonna lead to something else.
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:19.759
So in our field, that's super important because creativity is a part of what we do.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:20.160
Yeah.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:29.039
And it would be better to have five ideas and two be great than only to have one idea try it and then not have explored all the possibilities in the first place.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.440
Yeah.
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:31.680
Or 10 ideas equals five great ideas.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:42.559
Like we don't expect all the ideas to work out well, but if you're not really thinking about all of them, or if you're too afraid to say what the idea is, then you might not be actually exploring all of the possibilities.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:44.960
Yeah, we always say we're externally processing.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:53.519
So let's externally brainstorm, get the ideas out, but it also allows you to bounce ideas off of either your client or on their, you know, on their team members.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.039
But let's let's talk through these ideas.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.599
What makes sense, what doesn't, why doesn't it make sense, and like what can we pivot to get better?
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.160
An example for a contractor client that I can think of.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:10.559
I redid my deck a couple of years ago, and I had like a really limited um portion built out under a roof behind my house.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:16.559
And I had a couple of different people quote it, and we were, we were considering the possibility of extending it.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.160
The the space was really limited.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.480
It it kind of was challenging to put furniture out and things like that.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:42.640
Um, but an area would be like here, uh the contractors that won came up with possibilities or ideas kind of on their own of saying, hey, what if you did this or you could put this landing here, or you know, like not all contractors go out really willing to share ideas sometimes because it'll cause them more work.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.160
But I mean, most of our contractors hate Pinterest.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.200
They're like, please, nobody bring up Pinterest because they don't like the idea phase.
00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:57.680
And so then they're not, they also they don't want clients coming to them with ideas, but then they don't really share their ideas with the clients either.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:15.680
But I really feel like in the contractor world, this is an area that most of them could improve on because we mean we're girls, we drive a lot of the home improvement projects in our house and we spend a fair amount of time on Pinterest planning or on the internet looking or on Instagram looking for inspiration and ideas in advance.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:22.400
And so you should want to be included in that idea phase and process, yeah, not excluded from it.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.759
Okay, celebrate your own mistakes openly rather than hiding them.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.960
I think that's a really big thing that we talk about is that transparency.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.480
So hey, I messed up.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:44.880
So maybe not totally celebrating it, but we um were really honest if something, if a tracking was messed up or a conversion wasn't working, if we put the wrong picture on a on a website, on the wrong, you know, wrong saying, a wrong text.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.960
Um, just being very open and honest.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:59.359
I had one client You accidentally charge the wrong card and then have to call call them and tell them that that you have to send them a bill for$20,000, which did happen to me once that was one of my least fun conversations I've ever had at fierce.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:00.240
I can imagine.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.319
Um, I had one client tell me it's okay if you mess up as long as you tell me that you messed up and then what you're doing to fix it.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:11.279
So I think I mean you're taught that that's a pretty good rule of customer service.
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:12.799
It's just really hard to do.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:13.359
Yeah.
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.799
Nobody wants to go tell a client they messed up, but sometimes that's better than trying to hide it for sure.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:26.640
Giving away the business, recommend a comp a competitor or a cheaper fix when it's generally what the client needs, trusting that the relationship pays off over time.
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:28.480
Give me an example.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.160
This is when I struggle with.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:38.799
I would say, like when reading the book Getting Naked, I felt like it's pretty natural to who I am and how I operate with our clients.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:46.000
This one I struggle with because I do think we can serve all of our clients, or I always I'm a potential seer.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.119
I'm a visionary.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:58.480
So when somebody, a young business, comes to us and maybe they don't have the budget that they should have to compete in the space, it's really still hard for me to say, Hey, I don't think that you have the budget.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
Maybe you should look for this opportunity.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.000
Because number one, I see the potential for where their business could go.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.079
And I want to be able to grow with them as they grow.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:14.799
So I hate the idea of saying, hey, why don't you go to an individual content creator or to a less expensive photographer or to somebody else?
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.799
Because I feel like then they're going to have the opportunity to build the relationship with that person.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:23.920
And then when they're bigger, they're going to remember that person and not us who recommended them to somebody else.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.720
So that's just super transparently.
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:28.799
That's probably what I struggle with the most.
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.680
I think on the flip side though, what you do give away is free advice all the time.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.640
So that's part of giving away the business is that's true.
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:42.160
Just sitting down with the client and just start strategizing before they signed any contracts with us.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.960
We don't really have contracts before they agree to work with us, before they're locked in as a client.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.920
In that sales discovery meeting, you're firing off ideas, ideas, ideas.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:57.680
You're giving away fear says business in the strategy, where technically they could take that strategy and go elsewhere.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.119
Um, but that's also part of getting away the giving away the business.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.200
So, yes, this could be a cheaper option.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.680
Or, I mean, we'll do it sometimes where maybe they can't afford a full website redesign.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.359
So let's can we do it in phases?
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.759
Can we just at least work on this homepage first?
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.279
But giving away advice is the same thing.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.359
Tell the kiss of death truth.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:24.000
Saying the hard things the client doesn't want to hear, even if it risks the relationship, because avoiding it is worse long term.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.319
Tell the kiss of death truth.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.440
So you tell the client what they want to hear, or what is it saying?
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:30.400
What they don't want to hear.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:35.200
Yeah, no, giving the client what they need, not what they want, which is what we say all the time.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:40.240
But I'm trying to think of a situation where we would have had a kiss of death truth.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.039
I don't know if we're getting quite that honest.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.720
Like we we do try to approach our conversations delicately.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:58.079
So we're not gonna just, you know, barrel straight in and say, actually, you're wrong, and you totally have the wrong budget, and I think we're measuring this the wrong way.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:12.160
We're gonna approach that from a relational standpoint and suggest other ideas and say, okay, here's what you should consider, here's what we're seeing in trends, here's what we see working with other people, this is why we maybe we wouldn't recommend doing that.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:24.720
So we maybe approach that more softly than saying the kiss of death truth, which is like I can think of a couple of clients in just the last year where we know that they weren't tracking accurately two different situations.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:30.880
We asked, we kept asking the questions kind of softly, but we weren't as direct as maybe we should be.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:38.400
That then it put the relationship six months later in jeopardy because then they were like, Oh, I need to take a deeper look here.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.839
And you're like, Well, we get a little frustrated because, like, well, we've have been asking that, but in looking back, maybe we weren't quite direct enough.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.079
Like, hey, if you don't figure this out, I don't know if we're gonna keep working together.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.680
Again, I don't know if I will actually be able to live that out.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.839
Yeah, that one will be really hard.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.839
But well, I don't believe in ultimatums.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:24:59.119
I think that that's bad.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.559
But um, can you think of any situations?
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:12.000
Um, I think learning from other situations, kind of same thing of clients not tracking everything correctly, or every meeting telling us that, you know, things are great, things are great.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.039
Um, I've had that happen where clients have said, you know, yep, leads are great, quality is great, quality is great.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:22.319
And then we come to the year and then it all comes out that things weren't as great as they were telling us.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:31.440
Um, so now going forward, when I have a current client that's telling me every meeting, the leads are great, sales are great, but I know they're not tracking things correctly.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.799
I've just flat out told them, okay, you've said this every month.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:41.440
When we get to the end of the year, you can't go back and tell me that things weren't weren't working throughout the year because you're telling me right now.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.680
So this is your chance to be honest.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.480
Is there, you know, how how how really how are the leads?
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:56.720
And what are we doing to work towards tracking your sales better so that you can actually give me honest feedback of what your quality is like.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:59.519
We don't want to get to the point where it's a kiss of death.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:06.880
We want to say it early enough that it's yeah, a conversation that leads to a better path, not that it actually has to be like a line in the sand.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.200
Yeah.
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:13.839
And I think just what you had said in the beginning of taking those lessons, taking those failures, and you know, what can we do better for the next time that happens?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.279
So I think this year has been really applying a lot of that.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:22.880
In summary, this was actually a really great reminder because we read that book maybe four or five months ago, six months ago.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:23.279
I don't know.
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:24.160
This year has been a blur.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.039
Read it in January.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:26.559
This was the fastest book I read.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:27.519
Yeah, I read it in January.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:28.640
Was it that long ago?
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.119
Mm-hmm.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:30.400
Oh, okay.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.960
Well, regardless, it was a good reminder.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.279
So I'm really glad we had the conversation again because it's been a little bit of a crazy year.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.279
So we read this early before we hired a couple of client relationship managers.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:49.200
We've had them read it, but it's a good reminder to think about how we're applying this inside our own client relationships and honestly, even within the team.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:54.079
Like this this premise really applies if you're managing or leading a team as well.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.440
Or I mean, I'm at the end of the day, do you talk to other people?
00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:58.880
Again, it's a communication tool.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:02.160
Marriages, maybe they need to read this book exactly.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.640
If somebody wants to read the book or learn more about it, what would you recommend that they do?
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.079
It's a really easy read.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.839
Yeah, it's uh I think 45 minutes if you listen to it on audiobook.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:15.200
Um, I just looked at the pages, it's like hundreds and some pages.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.359
It's very short, it's a very easy read.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:30.000
Again, I read it in a weekend in between nap times with it's a written in fable format in Patrick's normal style, which is just to um tell a story that's really easy to see how how the principles are being applied.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:35.839
Yeah, and it's really again, no matter what your business is, you can put yourself in any of those characters.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:45.599
And if someone is listening to us talk about how we manage our client relationships and they think, huh, I work with a marketing partner and they don't work with me like that.
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:47.759
Where should they find more information about us?
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.759
They can find more information at us at fiercecreative solutions.com.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:52.480
There you go.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.319
Schedule a meeting, we'd love to talk.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:55.359
Absolutely.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.160
All right, thank you so much for being on here today.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.480
As always, I love having you with me on Torch Talk.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:00.880
Thanks.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.440
Are we gonna make any comments about our pink matching suits?
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.400
I think that just how we should dress every day.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.039
Done.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:08.480
This is like twinsies.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:08.880
Yeah.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.359
I just feel like we're the power dynamic duo.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.440
Pink matching all day long.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:13.839
Yeah.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:14.160
Yep.
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.079
Thanks for tuning in to Torch Talk.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:22.400
If today's story sparked something for you, share it with a colleague, community leader, or future change maker.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.759
Until next time, stay inspired, stay intentional, and keep your fire burning.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.040
Yeah, I never had a client look at me weird for asking a dumb question or anything like that.
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.080
I did have a client say that was really good for the question for a lady.
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.320
That's a good question I thought of.
00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:17.519
And I still give them hard time for that, but it's funny.
00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:25.359
Welcome back to Torch Talk, the show where we spotlight bold leaders growing businesses and communities with grit and purpose.
00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.879
Today's guest is Julia Cooser, Director of Client Success at Fierce Creative Solutions.
00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:36.560
Julia has been with Fierce for three years and has become an integral part of who we are today.
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:41.840
She helps shape how we serve our clients every day, which brings us to today's conversation.
00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:48.079
At Fierce, one of our core values is continually growing, which means we are always reading or learning something new.
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:53.840
This year we read Getting Naked by Patrick Lencioni, which will be our topic of discussion for today.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:55.920
Welcome to Torch Talk, Julia.
00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:57.039
Thanks for having me.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:00:57.920
Welcome back.
00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:00.479
Thank you, my little dynamic duo partner.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:00.960
Yes.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:06.319
It's been a minute since we've had an interview together, so I'm looking forward to our discussion today.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:13.280
For those who are listening who maybe have not read or heard about the book Getting Naked, it sounds a little inappropriate.
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Tell everybody what it's about.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:20.000
Yeah, everybody jokes about don't read it if you're on a plane or if you're in public or one.
00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:21.599
Or just at home with children.
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Because my children were like, what are you reading right now?
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CRMs was like, Yeah, I can't read it around my daughter.
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Um the book is just about how you manage uh how you manage relationships and clients and the communication that you have with those clients.
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We have now uh read it, we both read it.
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Actually, you read it first, then you gave it to me, and then we were like, hmm, I think everybody needs to read it because whether you are in sales or account management or not, you could be at any role within Fierce for sure.
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And I think anybody who talks to other people or you have to manage relationships, especially in a business setting, the the premise or the ideas inside this book are very helpful.
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So we all kind of struggle a little bit with being authentic and transparent and how I manage this while I'm protecting my company, um, but also serving the client that I'm working with.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:14.719
Yeah, I took it really as a communication tool and how you just manage any relationship, like you said.
00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:25.120
So you can internal relationships, external relationships, even though it was based around a consulting company, um, it can be really used for any type of any type of business.
00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:25.680
Okay.
00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.360
So talk us through um the book idea.
00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:34.240
There were kind of three, I think, three pain points or three main points of the book.
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Let's kind of just talk about those um and dig into each one of them individually then.
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So there were three fears uh that the book talked about.
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So the first one was the fear of losing the business, the fear of being embarrassed, and then the fear of feeling inferior.
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Okay, so the fear of losing the business, when you were reading the book, how do you see that playing out from the Fierce Creative Solutions perspective?
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So, within the our role in particular as a CRM, I think the main thing is um our job is to maintain our client relationship and not lose the business.
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.439
So that's just plain and simple of losing that client.
00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:18.560
How can you think of times when you have been working with a client and you were afraid of losing the business, but you didn't apply what you learned in this book?
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Like when when you were doing it wrong.
00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:20.879
Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:22.080
Give me some examples.
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So I think when I first started, I there was the fear of um knowing that uh what's the saying the client's always right?
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So being that yes man, whatever the client says, yep, yep, we can do that.
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Or even if the client what they wanted to do wasn't right, but you just you come from unlearning the thought that the client is always right was the hardest thing, I think, for me when I first started.
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So especially being a new in the role and you don't want to mess up, you don't want to lose the business.
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So you need you think you're saying the right things to keep the business, but you're really saying all the things to lose the business.
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It's not that the clients aren't important, but really sometimes they don't actually understand what they need.
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:02.639
Yeah.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.360
Or what they need will not help them achieve their goals.
00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:08.879
There's a uh discrepancy between the goals and their request.
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:20.639
And so in the client relationship goal, if you're afraid of losing the business, or sorry, in the client relationship role, if you are afraid of losing the business, then you will not respond appropriately when you're in those situations.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:34.240
So to be able to bring the client the hard truth or just the truth, whether it's hard or not, and be able to say that confidently really changes the relationship that you have with them and also the success down the road.
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:51.279
Because if you're promising or giving them what they want, but then like you can't actually do what they need later, maybe because they don't have the budget now, because you spend it on something else, or because what they're requesting is pushing you in the wrong direction, um, we'll end up losing them eventually.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:51.680
Yeah.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.680
So the fear of losing the business will actually make you lose the business.
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Exactly.
00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:06.480
So you have to, it's so counter counterintuitive that you have to like really uh change those internal mindsets in order to manage the relationship the way that you should.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.600
Putting your mindset that if a client wants to do something and you tell them yes and then it doesn't meet their goals, they're gonna leave.
00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:23.519
But if you tell them no, they're either going to get mad and leave or say yes, and it's gonna actually reach what their goal is and strengthen that relationship and make it even stronger.
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:25.519
So just thinking of it that way.
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At fierce, we serve primarily um service-based businesses, mostly contractors.
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Can you think of situations where uh it might apply to them if they're working with their clients?
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How would it show up in the business if they might be afraid to lose their client?
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How we manage our clients and how our clients manage our clients, especially from that sales perspective, um, I we always think of ourselves as a consultant.
00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:53.279
So we are a client's consultant when it comes to marketing.
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And I have the same conversation over and over with my clients on how what their sales process is, is their prospect clients come to them seeking advice and looking to them as a consultant.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:30.160
So even from just that sales process, if they are just honest with the client and saying, you know, you could do this, but it's gonna cost you this, or you're gonna run into this problem, or no, you can't do that, and it might be what you want, but that's really not a good solution, um, having those honest conversations up front and then being okay if they either choose to go with you in those recommendations or try to find somebody else that can do what they want.
00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:32.639
Contractors really have to work a lot to build trust.
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Actually, marketers do too.
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Yeah.
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We're in the very similar boat.
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Yeah.
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:55.279
But when you have to work really hard to build trust, if you are not honest up front with a client because you're afraid you're gonna lose that sale, then um you can erode the trust that you have built there or or miss the opportunity to build the trust if by saying, Hey, like this is actually what you need.
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Maybe somebody is requesting.
00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:59.839
I have a good example just because I have a roofing background.
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Somebody might be requesting a quote for a metal roof, but they have um a cathedral ceiling, and cathedral ceilings are not always the best situation to put a metal roof on.
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Maybe they have no ventilation, those types of things.
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One contractor might go say, Yep, yep, yep, because they know that they can lock down the sale, give them a metal roof.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.079
And another one is gonna really talk that homeowner through the situation.
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The homeowner may still choose to do the wrong thing, but when they do, and then the roof is leaking and they're having problems, they're gonna remember and maybe actually call the contractor who was honest with them in the first place.
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Yeah.
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So being honest um doesn't always get you the business.
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:36.079
Like that's just the truth.
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But at the end of the day, I think you're able to walk away feeling better about being very upfront.
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You we're able to feel better about how we serve our clients where the position that we're in, and not feel like we're kind of like walking around with our arm behind our back all the time.
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So I think our clients would feel the same way if they figured out how to apply that transparency in their sales process.
00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.600
Yeah, same thing with just like one of my constru um commercial roofing clients.
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:18.560
Map how they map out a roof for a client and really talk through what needs to be done now, what can wait, what doesn't need to be done, and being honest and what can wait or doesn't need to be done will obviously not make them money, but the client sees that honesty and appreciates it and feels like they can trust them to go with them.
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:20.240
Okay, what was pain point number two?
00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.040
So the second fear is fear of feeling embarrassed.
00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.920
This is an interesting one to think about.
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:37.279
Um, maybe because I put myself out there so much, I'm being a mom of four girls who are like mom all the time about everything that I do, I just really don't think about getting embarrassed anymore.
00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.360
I mean, there's definitely things that later I'm like, I shouldn't have said it like that.
00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:50.320
Or I, you know, I think later, but it's not quite embarrassed, it's more like, I don't know, self-analyzation of what I could do better.
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But think about are there any areas where you have not done something or not managed a client because you were afraid of being embarrassed?
00:08:58.960 --> 00:08:59.919
But I think so.
00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.799
In the book, it also talks about different um practices to do the practice of getting naked.
00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.840
And one of the practices is asking the dumb question and not being afraid to dumb the ask the dumb question.
00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:17.600
So, again, in the beginning of starting here, feeling like you need to know everything and know everything about your your client's business.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:26.159
And when you first start working with a client, you're not gonna know everything about their business, um, whether you've been here a long time or not, just because they're a new client, a new business.
00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:35.120
So, not being afraid to ask them a bunch of questions, or no matter what it sounds like or what the question is, um, I think is really important.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:45.759
Something that I tell now of our new um CRMs is don't be afraid to ask the dumb question because it's gonna make you sound like you know what you're talking more to ask that those questions.
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:54.399
So, whether that's their sales process, what does this mean, to uh terminology of their business, you're not supposed to know their business inside and out.
00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.559
That's the whole part of the onboarding system.
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And the first few months is to getting to know those clients.
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.639
That's what I was thinking of.
00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:09.759
It's is when we are working with our clients who are in contracting, they're working um in very specific trades, we don't always know exactly what they're talking about.
00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:15.200
Um, so not being afraid to ask those clarifying questions like, what is soffit?
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:16.159
What is fascia?
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What do you mean by this?
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Like, why or why do you need to do this?
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And really asking those questions, um, it number one, it allows us to understand what they do better, but it also builds the relationship.
00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:28.960
So actually, that's strengthened.
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You're showing the client that you're truly interested in really understanding who they are on a deeper level.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:44.559
Um, can you think of any situations again where our our clients or the a contractor might apply that when they're out selling their service with a homeowner?
00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:55.600
Yeah, I think when a um homeowner is asking for um for something in a particular way, um, asking them why they want it a particular way, like what are they planning on doing with that?
00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.320
Why, you know, what what is the reasoning behind that?
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Not pretending that you know the reasoning behind the reason that they want that.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:07.519
It can help the contractor give their client more advice on what really they need to do.
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:14.720
Um other examples of uh other examples, but I think also our clients really appreciate when we ask them more questions.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.200
A lot of our clients are nerds of their own business.
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.720
We had one client call, one of us a nerd, likes to nerd out with them.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.159
Um, so I think they appreciate when we want to know more about their business.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:34.080
And even when we bring the rest of our internal team to their business to learn more and ask questions, I think they really value that um that we're really interested in learning about their business.
00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:35.919
It is uh a little bit crazy.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:38.240
Starting fierce five years ago, I didn't expect.
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:42.879
I came in a roofing siding windows, I would not expert, but pretty experienced.
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I didn't expect um to learn all these industries.
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So you really can't know everything.
00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:55.279
So yeah, nerding out uh on the different things that they do and really wanting to go deep with them.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:02.080
It helps them um feel like again, like we care about them and that we actually want to learn what they do.
00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:06.559
Uh some of the clients we don't uh, you know, are are a lot more specific.
00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:20.559
So we have some employees, that's why we have them divide us divided up into teams so that we can manage that across tierce, not just like one person knowing everything, but when we have a team of multiple people working with them together.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:29.440
Um, I think that we with leading a younger team, um, they also have an opportunity here to not be embarrassed by asking those questions.
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.879
So, as a client relationship manager, we're out there with the clients all the time.
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.159
Our team also needs to be really comfortable asking those questions.
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:41.360
So, like you might understand where the client's at, but not everybody on the team might understand that.
00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:47.919
So it's just an area of opportunity for all of us should just get over the fear of being embarrassed, period, and the whole entire world.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:49.679
Like, who really cares at the end of the day?
00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:51.600
Every person in the world is actually weird.
00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:53.679
There is no normal, like there, yeah.
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:58.480
I don't know why we all think that we're trying to perform to a standard when there is no real standard.
00:12:58.720 --> 00:12:58.960
Yeah.
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:03.600
I've never had a client look at me weird for asking a dumb question or anything like that.
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:08.799
I did have a client say that was a really good question for a lady because of the question I thought of.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.840
And I still give them a hard time for that, but it's fun.
00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:15.360
That's the joy of being women in construction, right?
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.639
He was impressed that I that I thought of that question to ask.
00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:23.039
That's what we have to stay up late doing our homework on so we can impress our contractor clients.
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:23.440
Exactly.
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:25.120
So we sound like we know what we're talking about.
00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:26.799
Okay, what is the third fear?
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.679
The third fear is the fear of feeling inferior.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:37.279
Okay, so do you have examples of how that plays out here at Fears or with our clients?
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:38.720
Examples from the book.
00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.039
I'm gonna read off a couple of the practices of uh getting naked.
00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:53.679
So never worrying about getting the credit, ask for help when you need it instead of projecting false competence, um, entering the danger, so leaning into uncomfortable conversations instead of tiptoeing around them.
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:57.759
I think those three things really kind of speak to that fear.
00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:13.039
So if there's a situation where I can pick up tons of um having to having to have those difficult conversations with the client um and just kind of laying everything out always ends up being better on the on the flip side.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:18.240
We always have to enter those relationships from what we call equal business stature.
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:18.639
Yeah.
00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:26.879
Um, when you're in the position of serving the client and the client is always right, it puts them on a pedestal and it puts us below them.
00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:29.120
And this is true for everybody else.
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:35.440
When you want to partner with a client, you have to be seen as equal to them.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:42.080
When you see yourself as equal to them, you will operate in a different way, which really summarizes all three of these pain points.
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:56.960
You will not um have a fear of being embarrassed, you're not gonna fear losing the business, and you're not going to feel inferior because at the end of the day, your value and who you are as a person is not affected by whether you're doing uh, you know, business with them or not.
00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:06.799
So operating um from a place where your value is not affected really changes uh how you manage that relationship.
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.320
And so equal business doctor is something that we say around here all the time.
00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.360
We use that in training with our client relationship managers.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:19.279
It's not something we expect everybody to know right away because it really is a habit that has to be built.
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:20.559
You have to get comfortable.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:22.559
I feel like that's all I coach on.
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:22.879
Yeah.
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:28.399
I mean, everybody, it's like what I coach you on, new client relationship managers.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:41.200
Um, and I'm fine with that because I I understand my practice was working in a roofing company for eight years with five business owners who were serial entrepreneurs and always had new ideas.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:48.879
Literally started, um, I think at one point my direct supervisor or boss had like four businesses on his own and other guys would start one.
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:55.120
So I just had to be really comfortable sitting at a table of basically our clients.
00:15:55.519 --> 00:16:03.759
So I had to get comfortable owning my space, not feeling that you know I am any less than them and being able to bring those ideas.
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.480
I had to practice that a lot before we started fear.
00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.840
So that takes time and I'm okay with it taking time.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.759
But it is, it's if there's something that could be learned the fastest, it's that.
00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:22.240
Like, you know, we we had a meeting this week with our client relationship team, and I looked at one person, I said, just don't be afraid to lose the business.
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.320
Like if this doesn't go the right way, you're giving them the right advice.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.600
Just know it's okay with me if something doesn't work out.
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:38.399
Like, you know, giving them the permission to go out and do what actually needs done for the client, um, it changes the way that we communicate with them and what we do.
00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:55.279
I think that was the biggest piece of advice when I first started, because obviously being new, you don't want to lose any clients or lose business, but getting your permission that it's okay if they leave because of if they're leaving because they don't agree with our recommendations or they don't want to do the way that we suggest that they should do, that's okay.
00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.840
That maybe that's just that means that they're not a good fit.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.360
It could mean so many other things other than we quote failed.
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:02.159
Yes.
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.839
Permission to fail is a core principle at fear.
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:06.559
So it has to be.
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.079
It's really, I mean, marketing is really about failure overall.
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.079
But in business, you listen to all the experts.
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.920
You have to learn how to fail fast.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.599
Um, you have to be okay with learning from each one of those experiences.
00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:25.519
And there might be some client relationships that we have lost that we would have wished worked out differently or that we would want to have back.
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.440
But the end of the day, you know, there's no regrets in life, right?
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:33.119
Like we just have to learn from all of those situations, figure out how to grow from that.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.400
And then how are we going to manage our clients moving forward better?
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:37.119
Yeah.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:42.160
If anything, I think it helps us to find better, you know, who our best partners are.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.680
What are the type of clients that we or what are the type of things that we want to look for in a client?
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:48.720
Um, it just helps us vet to know who our good partnerships are.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:50.000
Okay.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.200
So you had a list of other practices for getting naked.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.440
Kind of run us through some other highlights.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:56.000
Okay.
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.960
So making suggestions or offer even at the risk of being wrong.
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.400
So that kind of goes into the dumb question, but also not being afraid to throw out ideas.
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.400
Um, it may stick, it may be crazy, doesn't make any sense, but just it just throwing that idea out there.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.880
And then a lot of times, even if that isn't a good idea, it's gonna lead to something else.
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:19.759
So in our field, that's super important because creativity is a part of what we do.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:20.160
Yeah.
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:29.039
And it would be better to have five ideas and two be great than only to have one idea try it and then not have explored all the possibilities in the first place.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:29.440
Yeah.
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:31.680
Or 10 ideas equals five great ideas.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:42.559
Like we don't expect all the ideas to work out well, but if you're not really thinking about all of them, or if you're too afraid to say what the idea is, then you might not be actually exploring all of the possibilities.
00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:44.960
Yeah, we always say we're externally processing.
00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:53.519
So let's externally brainstorm, get the ideas out, but it also allows you to bounce ideas off of either your client or on their, you know, on their team members.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.039
But let's let's talk through these ideas.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.599
What makes sense, what doesn't, why doesn't it make sense, and like what can we pivot to get better?
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:02.160
An example for a contractor client that I can think of.
00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:10.559
I redid my deck a couple of years ago, and I had like a really limited um portion built out under a roof behind my house.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:16.559
And I had a couple of different people quote it, and we were, we were considering the possibility of extending it.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.160
The the space was really limited.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.480
It it kind of was challenging to put furniture out and things like that.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:42.640
Um, but an area would be like here, uh the contractors that won came up with possibilities or ideas kind of on their own of saying, hey, what if you did this or you could put this landing here, or you know, like not all contractors go out really willing to share ideas sometimes because it'll cause them more work.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.160
But I mean, most of our contractors hate Pinterest.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.200
They're like, please, nobody bring up Pinterest because they don't like the idea phase.
00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:57.680
And so then they're not, they also they don't want clients coming to them with ideas, but then they don't really share their ideas with the clients either.
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:15.680
But I really feel like in the contractor world, this is an area that most of them could improve on because we mean we're girls, we drive a lot of the home improvement projects in our house and we spend a fair amount of time on Pinterest planning or on the internet looking or on Instagram looking for inspiration and ideas in advance.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:22.400
And so you should want to be included in that idea phase and process, yeah, not excluded from it.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.759
Okay, celebrate your own mistakes openly rather than hiding them.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.960
I think that's a really big thing that we talk about is that transparency.
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.480
So hey, I messed up.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:44.880
So maybe not totally celebrating it, but we um were really honest if something, if a tracking was messed up or a conversion wasn't working, if we put the wrong picture on a on a website, on the wrong, you know, wrong saying, a wrong text.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.960
Um, just being very open and honest.
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:59.359
I had one client You accidentally charge the wrong card and then have to call call them and tell them that that you have to send them a bill for$20,000, which did happen to me once that was one of my least fun conversations I've ever had at fierce.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:00.240
I can imagine.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:06.319
Um, I had one client tell me it's okay if you mess up as long as you tell me that you messed up and then what you're doing to fix it.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:11.279
So I think I mean you're taught that that's a pretty good rule of customer service.
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:12.799
It's just really hard to do.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:13.359
Yeah.
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:18.799
Nobody wants to go tell a client they messed up, but sometimes that's better than trying to hide it for sure.
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:26.640
Giving away the business, recommend a comp a competitor or a cheaper fix when it's generally what the client needs, trusting that the relationship pays off over time.
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:28.480
Give me an example.
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.160
This is when I struggle with.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:38.799
I would say, like when reading the book Getting Naked, I felt like it's pretty natural to who I am and how I operate with our clients.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:46.000
This one I struggle with because I do think we can serve all of our clients, or I always I'm a potential seer.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.119
I'm a visionary.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:58.480
So when somebody, a young business, comes to us and maybe they don't have the budget that they should have to compete in the space, it's really still hard for me to say, Hey, I don't think that you have the budget.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
Maybe you should look for this opportunity.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.000
Because number one, I see the potential for where their business could go.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.079
And I want to be able to grow with them as they grow.
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:14.799
So I hate the idea of saying, hey, why don't you go to an individual content creator or to a less expensive photographer or to somebody else?
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.799
Because I feel like then they're going to have the opportunity to build the relationship with that person.
00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:23.920
And then when they're bigger, they're going to remember that person and not us who recommended them to somebody else.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.720
So that's just super transparently.
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:28.799
That's probably what I struggle with the most.
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.680
I think on the flip side though, what you do give away is free advice all the time.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.640
So that's part of giving away the business is that's true.
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:42.160
Just sitting down with the client and just start strategizing before they signed any contracts with us.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.960
We don't really have contracts before they agree to work with us, before they're locked in as a client.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.920
In that sales discovery meeting, you're firing off ideas, ideas, ideas.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:57.680
You're giving away fear says business in the strategy, where technically they could take that strategy and go elsewhere.
00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.119
Um, but that's also part of getting away the giving away the business.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:03.200
So, yes, this could be a cheaper option.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:07.680
Or, I mean, we'll do it sometimes where maybe they can't afford a full website redesign.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.359
So let's can we do it in phases?
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:11.759
Can we just at least work on this homepage first?
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.279
But giving away advice is the same thing.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.359
Tell the kiss of death truth.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:24.000
Saying the hard things the client doesn't want to hear, even if it risks the relationship, because avoiding it is worse long term.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.319
Tell the kiss of death truth.
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.440
So you tell the client what they want to hear, or what is it saying?
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:30.400
What they don't want to hear.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:35.200
Yeah, no, giving the client what they need, not what they want, which is what we say all the time.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:40.240
But I'm trying to think of a situation where we would have had a kiss of death truth.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.039
I don't know if we're getting quite that honest.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:48.720
Like we we do try to approach our conversations delicately.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:58.079
So we're not gonna just, you know, barrel straight in and say, actually, you're wrong, and you totally have the wrong budget, and I think we're measuring this the wrong way.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:12.160
We're gonna approach that from a relational standpoint and suggest other ideas and say, okay, here's what you should consider, here's what we're seeing in trends, here's what we see working with other people, this is why we maybe we wouldn't recommend doing that.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:24.720
So we maybe approach that more softly than saying the kiss of death truth, which is like I can think of a couple of clients in just the last year where we know that they weren't tracking accurately two different situations.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:30.880
We asked, we kept asking the questions kind of softly, but we weren't as direct as maybe we should be.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:38.400
That then it put the relationship six months later in jeopardy because then they were like, Oh, I need to take a deeper look here.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:45.839
And you're like, Well, we get a little frustrated because, like, well, we've have been asking that, but in looking back, maybe we weren't quite direct enough.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.079
Like, hey, if you don't figure this out, I don't know if we're gonna keep working together.
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.680
Again, I don't know if I will actually be able to live that out.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.839
Yeah, that one will be really hard.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.839
But well, I don't believe in ultimatums.
00:24:58.079 --> 00:24:59.119
I think that that's bad.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.559
But um, can you think of any situations?
00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:12.000
Um, I think learning from other situations, kind of same thing of clients not tracking everything correctly, or every meeting telling us that, you know, things are great, things are great.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.039
Um, I've had that happen where clients have said, you know, yep, leads are great, quality is great, quality is great.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:22.319
And then we come to the year and then it all comes out that things weren't as great as they were telling us.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:31.440
Um, so now going forward, when I have a current client that's telling me every meeting, the leads are great, sales are great, but I know they're not tracking things correctly.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.799
I've just flat out told them, okay, you've said this every month.
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:41.440
When we get to the end of the year, you can't go back and tell me that things weren't weren't working throughout the year because you're telling me right now.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.680
So this is your chance to be honest.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:48.480
Is there, you know, how how how really how are the leads?
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:56.720
And what are we doing to work towards tracking your sales better so that you can actually give me honest feedback of what your quality is like.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:59.519
We don't want to get to the point where it's a kiss of death.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:06.880
We want to say it early enough that it's yeah, a conversation that leads to a better path, not that it actually has to be like a line in the sand.
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:07.200
Yeah.
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:13.839
And I think just what you had said in the beginning of taking those lessons, taking those failures, and you know, what can we do better for the next time that happens?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.279
So I think this year has been really applying a lot of that.
00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:22.880
In summary, this was actually a really great reminder because we read that book maybe four or five months ago, six months ago.
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:23.279
I don't know.
00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:24.160
This year has been a blur.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:25.039
Read it in January.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:26.559
This was the fastest book I read.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:27.519
Yeah, I read it in January.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:28.640
Was it that long ago?
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.119
Mm-hmm.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:30.400
Oh, okay.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.960
Well, regardless, it was a good reminder.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.279
So I'm really glad we had the conversation again because it's been a little bit of a crazy year.
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:41.279
So we read this early before we hired a couple of client relationship managers.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:49.200
We've had them read it, but it's a good reminder to think about how we're applying this inside our own client relationships and honestly, even within the team.
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:54.079
Like this this premise really applies if you're managing or leading a team as well.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.440
Or I mean, I'm at the end of the day, do you talk to other people?
00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:58.880
Again, it's a communication tool.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:02.160
Marriages, maybe they need to read this book exactly.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.640
If somebody wants to read the book or learn more about it, what would you recommend that they do?
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:08.079
It's a really easy read.
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.839
Yeah, it's uh I think 45 minutes if you listen to it on audiobook.
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:15.200
Um, I just looked at the pages, it's like hundreds and some pages.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.359
It's very short, it's a very easy read.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:30.000
Again, I read it in a weekend in between nap times with it's a written in fable format in Patrick's normal style, which is just to um tell a story that's really easy to see how how the principles are being applied.
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:35.839
Yeah, and it's really again, no matter what your business is, you can put yourself in any of those characters.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:45.599
And if someone is listening to us talk about how we manage our client relationships and they think, huh, I work with a marketing partner and they don't work with me like that.
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:47.759
Where should they find more information about us?
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.759
They can find more information at us at fiercecreative solutions.com.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:52.480
There you go.
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.319
Schedule a meeting, we'd love to talk.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:55.359
Absolutely.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.160
All right, thank you so much for being on here today.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.480
As always, I love having you with me on Torch Talk.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:00.880
Thanks.
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.440
Are we gonna make any comments about our pink matching suits?
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.400
I think that just how we should dress every day.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.039
Done.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:08.480
This is like twinsies.
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:08.880
Yeah.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.359
I just feel like we're the power dynamic duo.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.440
Pink matching all day long.
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:13.839
Yeah.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:14.160
Yep.
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.079
Thanks for tuning in to Torch Talk.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:22.400
If today's story sparked something for you, share it with a colleague, community leader, or future change maker.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.759
Until next time, stay inspired, stay intentional, and keep your fire burning.
