Your Commander Deck Has an Identity Crisis: Archetypes vs. Sub-themes

justin and Kevin: Dude, my Boros reanimator deck? I love that thing. Reanimator? I thought the thing was a flicker deck. Huh. Yeah, I I guess it kinda is. Welcome back to Top Deck Therapy. Today we're talking gray areas in between archetypes. Yeah, so good to be back. Good to be talking magic with you, my friend. Yeah. today, something that's been on our mind and what we'd like to go over is the gray area between archetypes. the community at large likes to put boxes around what we do. And You know, they call that what is it, archetypes, right? and you know, I think I think we're the authors of our decks. the main character being our commander, usually. And yeah, you know, the community at large likes to kind of put us into these boxes. And I don't like to be in those boxes. I like to be somewhere in the middle. you know. sometimes you like to be outside the box. Hey. So hey there you go. Just like Jack in the Box. Think outside the box. That's right. Yeah. yeah, I I think yeah, I think we're authors, right? So, you know, deck building is is is really fun. It's a fun way to kinda interact with a game. It's you know, and it it's a creative outlet. and, you know, magic, commander, well, magic in general, but they have archetypes. And those archetypes kind of define what we like to do in the game. I like to kind of I like a sub theme. I like big creature. You do like big creature. You do like big creature. Yeah. yeah, but I like a Give Big Creature Big Bat. Big creature, big sword. Smash. It's still smash. It is. For you, it's still it's always smash. It's always smash. Mono blue and smash. Mono blue aggro. you gotta do it. Yeah. yeah. So, but I I just I've been thinking a lot lately about kind of the gray area between archetypes. I don't like to be reined in by these definitions of archetypes. I think there's a a big gray area between these, and I think that truly is where the magic of deck building comes in. this is modern day commander. This is modern day magic. we have so many resources available to us to aid us in in deck building EDH rec being kind of at the front of that. Skyfall, there's there's lots of deck building help out there. People love to give their opinion. so I think We're kind of losing that discovery of deck building a little bit. But to me, the gray areas between these archetypes are the places where we can really explore and figure out kind of how to be unique. Yeah, it helps yeah, yeah, exactly. You you keep your deck different from everyone else's deck. Like I I always use EDH rec as like a guideline. cause there's so many cards out there. I don't know them all. It's got, you know, exactly what I need to see for the certain commander that I want. I just go through the high synergy cards, go through all of the utilities that I need, gives you all the best lands. But then like that's a good starting point, right? I like starting there. But these gray areas, I mean, Kevin and I talk about this all the time. Kevin's always sending me cards or You know, have you ever thought about putting this in your deck? And I'm like, Absolutely not, 'cause I don't play the way you do. No, he does not. That's why that's why you win. No, not necessarily. But like there's always different like avenues to go down, different roads, right? Not like every road does not lead to the ocean, you know? Yep. every card to me in your deck is like a doorway to a new vast world, right? There are pa packages, what I is what I would say. Yeah. you know, for each archetype. the aristocrats package, the Aikido, let's say, or Pillow Fort package, right? There are very similar cards that do very well in those archetypes. but, you know, to me, like my when I think of like doing sub themes, I think of like what is my main strategy and is there a sub theme? or a gray area in between another archetype that can aid in amping up that that main theme or kind of help shore up a weakness of of my main strategy. And sometimes I feel like the sub theme sometimes just like like just happens, right? It's not even like in the forefront of your mind when you pick the commander. You're like, my commander wants to do A, B, and C and then you start building the deck and then all of a sudden like X, Y, and Z starts like folding out and you're like, wait a minute, like this doesn't even aid my commander, but it aids my game plan. Yep. And I love that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have do you have an example off the top of your head that you know you've you know come across in your in your brewing? well, I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand with this one, but like my Toby deck is very near and deep. You know, I just love that deck. I would say it's your pet deck, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it's when I first picked it out, I started and I was like, you know what'd be really fun is I really want a mono white like blink deck. I'm just gonna blink Toby, you know, make some like beastie friends, and it's not gonna be like this. you know, it does that that'll be my strategy. I'll just blink Toby and I'll protect Toby by blinking him, and then you know, I'll just create this army of four fours. And then once you have, you know, four tokens. you get flying. And flying is really difficult to deal with, right? In Commander, or in magic in general. Flyers flyers win games. Yes, they do. And I quickly realized as I was putting cards into the deck, I was like, this is slowly but surely turning into a token deck and not a blinky deck. I use blink for like interaction, but it's a token deck. And I did it and it's a very aggressive token deck. Like all my tokens are meant to attack or block or both. you know, and I started putting in like like cards that help tokens, right? Like all your tokens have vigilance, all your tokens have you know, flying and all these other things to like help out, like all your tokens get plus one plus one. And then it's like, wait, my blink deck now is a token deck. Mm-hmm. But they kinda go in hand in hand. So like I know Kevin and I were talking about Venn diagrams. Yeah. And like that commander. Yes, absolutely. the circle of token strategy and the circle of blink or flicker, let's say. those circles intersect. Yeah. And they overlap. And that area in the middle, I think you've you've kind of captured that feeling really well. Let's touch on tokens real quick because, you know, you said it. tokens are a very abusable permanent. Yeah. they are, you know, you can make them in excess. you know, you can pump them up, you can go wide, you can sack them for aristocrats, you can sack them for mana, right? sometimes both in the aristocrat text as well. Yeah. You know, an Ashnod's altar with a bunch of tokens to put that mana back into an X spell that makes more tokens, right? It's they're a very abusable permanent type. and and honestly I think they're great in in commander because you can have a wide enough board to be offensive and defensive. So but yeah, that that's a great example of what I was, you know, kind of trying to get across here is the you know the Venn diagram, the overlapping of those two archetypes. It's a flicker deck and it's also a token deck. they can both be true, right? You don't have to define your deck by one archetype. and and I a lot of my decks are like this. I I am self, you know, I I have crowned myself as the king of the sub theme in my playgroup. To my own detriment. I I would crown you that. I would use the head that wears the crown. You don't even need to crown yourself. so when I think about these gray areas, right, and kind of mixing multiple archetypes to help either shore up weaknesses or you know, raise the strength. it can be good and it could also be a detriment, right? Because if you get if you get too If you get too unfocused, it can be a little all over the place, which I I'm also I've been known to do that to my own decks. But some examples that I have, is my Boros reanimator deck. I originally set out to make a Boros reanimator deck, because Boros isn't really known for reanimation. White does have a lot of great reanimation, and that's something that I've kind of recently learned. I think they're secondary to black in creature reanimation, and but they can reanimate all permanent types, artifacts, enchantments, I think planeswalkers. Anywho. so I originally started out was I was just my commander, who basically has an ETB of enter, discard two, discard up to two, draw up to two. That was my way of feeding my graveyard to reanimate. but then as I noticed putting some of these big bombs in there, some of these had a lot of ETBs. So then I was like, is there something there that I can capture and kind of you know, take a little bit of a a detour and capture more value from? So then I ended up going down a rabbit hole and I ended up putting all ETB creatures into the deck. And then of course along with that, you know, comes your, you know, all your your mass flicker stuff to create value. all of your what's the sorry, drawing a blanket. What's the four mana artifact that doubles Panharmonicon? Yeah. Then the Panharmonicon cards start coming in, right? So it it kind of ended up going to that place. and to me it kind of it accentuated what my commander does and it also synergizes really well with the rest of the deck and I feel like I have found a nice kind of middle spot. Would I call it a ETB deck, flicker deck? Maybe not so much. Would I call it a straight reanimator deck? Maybe not so much. But that middle point is is kind of a nice happy medium. Yeah, and I think that's what we're trying to get across here too. It's just like there's all these different avenues that like decks can go and you don't need to put your Commander in a box, like yeah. It can go multiple different ways. Some people might just like, that's just a highly synergized deck. Okay. But we're just trying to like think broad, right? Like, it's not just a reiterator deck. Like, it's not just a flicker deck. It's just all encompassing, yeah, that little gray area that makes Kevin's deck differ that different than anyone else's deck, really. So Right. Right. So Yeah, I I absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, yeah, that's just kind of the art of deck building. I said earlier, but EEH rec kind of does it for you. And in my opinion, there's not a lot of exploration left. let's see. Hmm. It might backtrack on my words here a bit. There is areas of exploration, but I think it's in that gray area. you know. Yeah. Good good cards for for strategies are just good cards and they're probably the most commonly used and you'll tend to see it, you know, the packages of certain you know, certain archetypes. Well, it's like the staple cards that everyone puts in their deck. Right. Like everyone that wants to draw a bunch of cards, there's tons of staple cards where you draw cards. Right. Or you want your artifact package. Yep. You want your big mana rocks. Like That's all there for you, but there's all these other avenues that you can put into your decks to make it different. Kind of tweak those knobs a little bit and kind of fine tune and and to me that is the art of deck building and making a deck truly yours. and that's the part that I get the most joy from in my deck building. I think that separates commander from the other formats, in my opinion. is the gray areas. Like when you think of like competitive, even C E D H, right? Like someone has you know very close to similar decks in C E D H. I feel like, right? Like I mean the best Rocco decks are probably all the same or the best Tefiri decks are probably all the same. Yeah. Closely, right? I'm not saying all of them are the same, but closely. But if you look at like our decks, like I guarantee someone's what's your reanimator decks? Joshua. Joshua Joshua Phoenix is dominant. I guarantee someone else's Joshua's deck does not look like Kevin's whatsoever. Yeah. and I and I hope so, right? I I hope that's true. this game would be boring. It would be make your own pre-con, right? If if all the decks looked the same. But that's what I love about Commander though. It's that your freedom to express yourself through deck building. and yeah, you have all these resources to do, but like I mean, we have the open ended commander series. Kevin and I do that. If you haven't seen that, please check those out. but Yeah, I mean we don't talk about what we're we I mean we picked obviously we picked the commander, right? We know what commander we're doing. But until that day when we're like about to film and record, like we don't know the strategies we're going into. And you're getting a live reaction to like us finding out what's in each other's decks. and that's awesome. And you know, we've done five, I believe, now. and Not one of our decks have ever been remotely close to each other. and that's the best part because I mean, even if you're in a frickin' you could play with like ten people and you all play the same commander, I guarantee they're all different. Yep. You know, even a pot of four, if we all if if you, me, Glover and Sean showed up to a game night and we all played the same damn commander, I guarantee all four of the decks would be different. yeah. Well, I mean, Sean and excuse me, Marco and and Glover just built what was that? Miles Morales. Miles Morales. Had they had no idea. Completely different decks. Same commander, completely different decks. Both a problem. Honestly, kind of com different archetypes, really. One was just cause the trample, right? And one was just a straight plus one plus one counter deck, right? Yep. Yeah, one I think was big creature trample and the other one was one one counter. encounters. and that and the commander is the hub of the wheel. It's what everything revolves around. It's what you always have access to. And it was still so different. And that is what I just love about this game. I love about this game. Yeah. I I was hoping maybe to go through an example here with you. Sure. we have chatted about it on the phone, headed to work. Multiple times. I bugged you with it a few times, but I have been contemplating a brew. A brew When you not? A brew that has many hooks to hang your hat on. And this commander is Zur Eternal Schemer. It is a commander Esper and it says I can pay mana to animate an enchantment. Its power and toughness is equal to its mana cost. It has hexproof. Death Touch and Life Link. My thought was originally. my thought was I'm gonna pick forced draw mechanics. forced fruition, right? All these cards that make people draw extra cards, right? and I was going to run clones to copy those. Okay. you love a clone. I I do, I do. So, The idea is force draw. Really, the win condition is mill. I want to have people go to draw their card and there'd be no cards left because I'm forcing them to draw. So something that I noticed is mill cards are good, obviously. Mill and force draw go hand in hand together. Also, the the enchantments that I animate turn into lifelink. Okay. Life link is a great way to kind of keep me in the game while I can set up to get people to draw out their decks. it's good because it shores up my weakness. They're lifelink. Okay. Also, there are cards that I'm able to whenever I gain life, opponents lose that much life. Okay. So kind of the typical what's the black Enchantments, enchantment combo. The two enchantments. Sangu Bond Exquisite Blood Sanguine Bond. So those, whenever I gain life, they lose that much life, right? There are cards like what's it something of Lake Towns, like whenever an opponent loses life, they mill that many cards, right? So if I hit deal them damage, they're milling, right? and then I have stuff like hope s time. Whenever I gain life, my opponents are losing they're milling cards. Okay. So, but also it's an enchantment deck. I have enchantress, right? It's like it's hard to align all these things, but when those Venn diagrams are intersecting and the points are getting me to to get to a similar end, that is gold. And that is that was kind of my idea behind the deck. So I know we've chatted about that deck. probably a little bit too much to be honest with you, but it's been picking my brain a little bit. Yeah, no, and I I and I think that's what I love about you and the way you deck build is cause like you see all these different avenues and different ways you can build your deck. And like for me, like I can see a commander and I can see the end goal. And I'm like, let's just get there as quick as possible, straight line. But Kevin, like y I mean, you just named Enchantress, you just named like aristocrat, like gaining life, losing life, you just named Mill. my god. Mill. Clones. There's another. Yeah, clone package. I'm like, dude. It's too many, man. It's too many head. Yeah. I'm like, how it's in in my brain, I'm like, okay, like it needs it's just everything needs to synergize so well that like no matter what happens, I'm good, right? I'm golden. But I feel like when your decks are firing on all of those avenues and cylinders, like your decks are awesome. But in my opinion, it's like when they don't go down those avenues or someone stops one of your themes, then your deck doesn't do anything. Or I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be mean or anything. I'm just I'm just trying to Tell the truth. You know? But You also have all these other ways you can win. So if I slow you down by taking out your you know, enchantments, you know, I just totally get rid of all your enchantments and your enchantress stuff and you're like, Okay, well, I'll just ping you guys all to death. You know? Yeah. And you have another avenue to go down. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying sometimes your decks are very, very good. Sometimes your decks are not so good. That's true. So that's true. You're absolutely right. Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at kind of finding those cards that fit in the middle of that diagram. Right of Venn diagram. but you're right. It that that is a challenge for me. I think I diversify my strategies a little bit too much. I I wanna be ready for whatever the game of Commander has to throw at me. And I think sometimes it's also to my own detriment. But I I enjoy I enjoy finding those cards that kind of fit in the middle you know, and and that perfect kind of synergy and they're talking to both sides or both strategies, let's say. my Voltron deck. I Voltron and Aikido, Voltron and Pillow Fort, those go very well together for me. And those show up a weakness for me. They help me not die because I become the threat. Yeah. And those go really well together. So I'm just thinking about all my decks and because you're like Pillow Fort. You're like, I just go I was like, okay, my my Jamoka deck. I'm like, that's Pillow Fort. Yep. But that's just Pillow Fort. You're like, I don't have That's that's life gain and Pillow Fort, which I think is like the same Yeah. But a little package. Right. But yeah, you're naming like, when I when when I build this deck, I put this in and this in and this in and this in. I know, I know, I know. I'm not saying it's bad. I am not. I I No. I've lost two decks. They're good. Yeah. Thanks, man. I gotta win that belt. I need to win that freaking belt, man. I I've won games. I've won games. I just haven't taken the belt home. I agree. I do have a question. Please do. How many? Sub themes is too many sub themes. In your opinion. that number's high. I honestly I think anything more than two sub themes, it's it's too it it just spreads it out too much. I think one sub theme that shores up a weakness, amazing, or amplifies a strategy, amazing. Two, yeah, man, decks are supposed to be fun, right? That's to my point. I was just wondering because it's just like how many themes are too many before you ruin the the whole story. Right. Well let's let's talk about the packages the package of cards that goes along with those strategies. Yeah. if I throw an aristocrat's package in a token deck, that's prob I mean, for it to be seen every game, depending on my draw, I would probably need to throw in at least s seven, at least a half a dozen, let's say. Half a dozen to ten sacrifice outlets, you know, things to see, creatures dying. That's just slots that are not used for, you know, your main strategy. so it that it's hard to say. It's a delicate balance. I one that I have not mastered yet. And I don't know if I ever will master it. Nor have I. one thing that I will mention is why I like sub themes. is I think it just diversifies your deck. I think something that I really don't like is. is buying a deck, playing it, and then within a couple of months scrapping it for something else. I put a lot of time pre buying the deck, like before I buy. I want to play the deck as long as possible. If I have multiple ways to win, the deck lasts a little longer in roster. If it's different each game, it'll last longer in my roster. It's less linear, but it's it probably means a little less powerful, but it's a little bit more fun for me and diverse. So Yeah, I mean you and I have different roster strategies and that's the best part. you know, I just feel like sometimes you need to just build a straightforward deck. Teach me how do you do that? I know. I think you just have one or two decks that are straightforward, and those are just in your roster, and you just have those. And then you don't have to play them all the time, but you know, you know, dude. You don't always have to be right, dude. You don't always have to be right. Something that I'm thinking about as you're talking about this is my roster at the moment is seven. I have seven decks. Why can't I just build them linear? And then if I want to. If I want a different feeling from the deck or a different archetype from the deck, I'd just build that way. yeah. I still think that's even tough for me. I don't even think it's a different way, but I mean your Locust God deck. there's two commanders technically, right? Or there was a commander and then you chose to go a different but are they the same strategy? 'cause who was the commander that you wanted to do? But I wanted to do Nin the paint artist. that's not in the deck. I thought it was. No, I never I never got one and then I just played Locus God and I actually started Looks gone. that deck is is actually there are multiple ways of winning. I have some themes. Shall I shall I go over them? you can, and I'll tell you how he's only won with that deck. There's one theme and one theme only. Do tell. Sacrificing tokens to kill me. Remember that time where I was like, Andrew, he had a he was playing his dino deck, and he was like I think I'm gonna declare daggers. I like, Andrew, before you declare attackers, if you attack me, I will sacrifice I had like thirteen whoa, whoa, whoa, no, it wasn't dinos. I remember this game. No, it was his elf deck. And I talked him into swinging all out with a crater hoof behemoth at you. That's right. You're well, remember I had all those enchantments out there. You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, because you had you're playing on Drazi, right? Yeah. And you're like, dude, I know Eldrazi's threatening. But this guy over here, he's got Skull Clamp, he's got what's the coastal piracy? Coastal piracy you're like Goblin Bombardment. He's a problem. Dude, no one believed me. And Marco was sitting next to me and he was playing some other deck. And he every time I played a big, like nasty Eldrazi, I was like, I'm not gonna do anything with it. He would just kill it. You had annihilator, like I'm swinging at Kevin. He's remove it. Exile it, remove it. I gotta get rid it. He's like, they're all big Aldrazies and I'm like, no. Kevin's a fucking problem. He's over there with enchantments. And I'm just like Anyways. those sub themes. Yeah, the sub themes. Anyways, so I was just like, dude, I was like, swing elsewhere, or I'll I'll literally kill you at instance because I like Marmel sacrificed my tokens. I think he was at like maybe twelve, thirteen life or something. He went balls deep. And he's like, I'm just gonna attack you. I was like, in respect. I was like, before that, I'll sacrifice this, I'll kill it. He's like What what the But it wasn't even that. He's like, I'll sacrifice this, and when they die, they'll have a draw trigger, and when I draw I'll make more insects. And I was like, This is end of all of us. At at at its heart, at its core, it was meant to be a nin the paint artist. It's a pingers list. curiosity type effects, you know, gutter snipes and all all sorts of stuff fun stuff like that. but there's multiple ways of winning. I actually have a Mill sub theme. Am I a Mill guy? No. Am I a Mill do I like Mill? I think you like Mill. I think you like the thought of Mill. I think everyone likes the thought of Mill. Whether you admit it or not, I think everyone likes the thought of Mill. You know why? I'll admit it. I like watching cards go from someone's library to someone's graveyard. I do too. And I laugh in their face while I do that evilly. But do you know why a lot of people don't play mill decks? It's because they suck. They're hard to win in commander. In a pot of four, they are terrible. But that's why you gotta do a sub theme. You gotta do something. Yeah. Unless you do self mill, like my Sir Conrad does. With a sub theme of Mortal Kombat. That's not a sub theme. That's a main theme, dude. I just mill myself out till I get Mortal Kombat in my hand and You're supposed to be juke a bug yourself. You're like, no, I'm trying to get Mortal Kombat online. I know. That's a cool win condition, by the way. I have yet to win that way, but I want to. Yeah, throw it on the bucket list. It is on my bucket list. It's it's like my Kalia. Yeah. I that deck's gone because I already hit my bucket list. I killed Kevin with the Master of Cruelties and Kalia. Dead. Yep. Loved it. I I hated it, but I also loved it for you. I know you enjoy that. Yeah. but that deck it does have some themes. It's a pinger list. It's a draw. Draw matters deck, right? it makes tokens. It's a token list, to be honest with you. I win by making hasty token flyers. It's a token deck. I'm just gonna say it. Like it's a token deck. That's how I only ever see Kevin play it is making tokens, killing people with tokens. It's a token deck. And the way I get tokens is by drawing cards. I don't care how many sub themes and grayers you say it is. It's Who doesn't like that? but it's also a mill deck, sort of. Every time I draw a card, I can make my opponent's mill too. I have multiple enchantments that do that. So God, I love that deck. I'm gonna play that. I'm gonna say I think you need to play it more. Next week, we'll play it. I'll bring it back out. Bring out, bring out. I just like diversifying a little bit. I I love those man, I don't know. I like building engines with my deck. I like these weird random cards seeing each other in certain ways that, you know, I think people don't normally think about. I mean, maybe they do. I'm not reinventing the wheel, but that's what I love. That's my favorite part of Commander. That's my favorite part of deck building is finding those cards that fit in the Venn diagram of of archetypes. Yeah. And I think I should probably broaden my horizons by, you know, maybe even drawing out a Venn diagram and writing my commander and some sub themes and seeing how they intersect and maybe I'll come up with a Kevin deck, if you will. And honestly, maybe I need to come up with a a Justin deck. And maybe maybe we can help help each other. Maybe that'll be a challenge. I'll build a Kevin deck, you build a Justin deck. Speaking of new decks. I have a new deck. Who is the commander? The molecule man. I never thought I'd build a colorless deck. Neither did I. in this deck, I like big creature. Blight Steel Colossus? I have Blight Steel Colossus in there. Yep. I went artifacts. I did not go Eldrazi because Andrew had an Eldrazi deck. And you saw the hatred on that. Nope. Not doing it. No, not I fully plan on becoming the problem. That's my goal. I am the problem. I will be attacking with huge giant creatures. Nothing wrong with that. I am the problem. yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy with it. it'll be my first time playing it next week and yeah, we'll see how it goes. But I am hoping to cast some big creatures for free and have a good time doing it. So I think yeah. Hmm. Is there a sub theme? Yeah. It's artifacts, probably is the main theme. Cast stuff for free. Big creatures. Big spells. Stuff like that. But it's it's yeah. I'm happy with the deck. Good. So far. but I'm sure it'll change and you'll add a theme or two. right. You know I gotta do that. That'd be a sub theme of Male, right? Colorless has to have some. Yeah. my god. They got it. Altar of Dementia is it? Alter the alter the brood, alter the mention. Alter the brood. We got this. We're gonna figure it out, community. We got this. Yeah, man. God. Yeah. I don't know. Anything else before we we sign off and I go find another sub theme? Please don't. We only need one or two. I think you've mentioned that. But yeah. Yeah, think about your guys' own decks and and What kind of like bucket that you put your commander into or your deck into and see how many different avenues your decks actually are in your deck or go down the avenue that is not down your commanders? Yeah, exactly. Try to, you know, the sub theme I think the sub theme can be thematic. the sub theme can be helpful to your strategy. Like I say, can shore up your weaknesses or amplify your strengths. the Venn diagram, it overlaps. Try to find those cards that are in the middle of those and and have a great time brewing. And that's top tech therapy.