Creating Value Without Chasing Growth: A Construction Company's Philosophy

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Welcome to another episode of Timeless Business and Building Strategies.
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Today I have Sam Rockaway.
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He's with Redcom Design and Construction.
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Thank you so much for joining us today, sam.
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Oh, you're welcome.
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Thank you so much for having me Very excited to be here.
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Yes, sir.
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So a quick background on yourself, Sam.
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So you guys right now are located in New Jersey.
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Could you kind of give us a background about yourself and how you got into construction?
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and after college.
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I owned a body shop for many years, for about 15 years, and while I was owning my body shop I attended college, put myself through school and then around I guess the 10th year of owning the shop, I sold the body shop and then went to Johnson Johnson to work at corporate, which is was a complete change and that's where I really learned how to sell, because I had to deal with company presidents at the operating companies and get them to agree to certain comments on reports, which is very difficult.
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That's not really my personality.
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So 9-11, I was flying around the world at the time 9-11 had happened, I was in a tower a week before and I just decided to move on to do other things, didn't really have a plan.
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I knew cars, I knew automotive, so I sold insurance specifically to car dealerships for about a year and that's how I met the owner of Redcom.
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The same day I met him, he asked me if I wanted to work here in the construction industry and I had no idea what construction really was.
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And four years later I said yes to him and it was the best decision I ever was.
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And four years later I said yes to him and it was the best decision I ever made and professionally, I've learned tremendous a lot.
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I've grown and we've doubled the size of the company in the last 14 years.
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That's amazing.
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Now, all right, so let's kind of go through.
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Thank you for that, that's amazing.
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So that's a great transition in there.
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So redcom so redcom didn't start out as redcom, so let's kind of walk through there.
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So redcom's been around since 1982, so could you kind of walk us through establishment and kind of give us a background on the company yes, so redcom was founded by a person named Jim Reddington.
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Jim Reddington has a son, a couple of kids, and Greg Reddington is one of them.
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So Greg is Jim's son and Jim was running the company doing a great job.
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He had four employees and Greg took over the company, I think in 92.
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He graduated from Rensselaer with a degree in structural engineering.
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He worked outside for a little while independently and then came in and took this over and right away he built it up to nine about nine or ten employees.
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When I got here, there was about 12 employees here in 19 in 2011.
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So I sold for Greg a little bit before I actually took a job here and then okay, and then.
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So that's what we did.
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So we have in-house engineering, we have in-house architecture and we have project managers that can combine.
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We can take a project from concept to completion.
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And then my role I was tasked with business development.
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Greg really wanted to just be an absentee owner, so Greg spent two years with me.
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I had I sat in his role.
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I was tasked with business development.
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Greg really wanted to just be an absentee owner, so Greg spent two years with me.
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I sat in his office.
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I shared an office with him.
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Everything he did, I did Everything I did.
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He came with me and he's a pretty intense guy, so it was definitely a tough two years.
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I was like, oh my God, did I make a mistake?
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But, like I said, I love it and I love Greg and he's been great to me.
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And so Greg, you know, after two years, took off, went down whatever he did.
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He moved to Italy.
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He did this, he did that and he would check in periodically with us and we then decided to build a company by essentially, just, you know, doing the right thing for the customers and going out and seeking new business in the lines that we were already in.
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So Greg had established our markets, which at the time were institutional, so private schools and religious facilities, industrial, so industrial would cover large industrial buildings, warehouses, logistics companies, light manufacturing, heavy manufacturing or flex space and then automotive dealerships.
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And that's what kind of attracted me, because I understood that business very well and we design and build car dealerships and it's a very complex process, it takes a long time and it involves the brand and it involves the owner and the brand has one mission and the owner has another mission and somehow you have to make it work.
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You know, a car dealership is no different than a franchise like McDonald's or Burger King or something else.
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Right, you have to be the same color and the same kind of shape, but the site dictates the shape of the building and what you can and can't do.
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Absolutely.
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So you know something that's intriguing here.
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So there's not everybody integrates and so vertically integrating with any business, you know that it's great when you can do it.
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It's a challenge and you have to have a lot of business established to pull in in in-house design engineers for civil engineering and then architecture.
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So it looks like you guys have built long-term relationships.
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So one of the good things when we talk about car dealerships, you guys it looks like you do toyota right dealerships.
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So, um, you know you, you get the, the Toyota dealerships and then you guys travel around probably and do Toyota, toyota, toyota.
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Once you do the new design, then they have to do refreshes, like any other franchise basically.
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So then you guys, once you've done that initial design, have the file, you can go help them with the refresh.
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So it's repeat business.
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Right and the brands come out with new images, probably every eight to 12 years.
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And the other interesting fact is if a dealership is sold and there's a lot of sales, there used to be over 600 rooftops.
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We'll call them rooftops, a dealer like a point.
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Sometimes they're referred to as a point, a shingle or a rooftop.
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It used to be over 600 of them in New Jersey.
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Now there's around 500 of them and through consolidation.
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So whenever there's a buy and sell transaction for a dealership, a franchise only new car, not used car, a new car dealership the brand looks at the image of the facility and if it's not compliant with what their expectations are or what their requirements are, they most of the time will have that dealer sign into that contract that they will get that brand, that image, upgraded over.
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It could vary, so say, one to four years, something like that, but they have to commit to doing it.
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Yeah, and that can turn into a lot of money.
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So that's a lot of opportunity for you guys.
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And so when you guys were niched down in this and so normally the success, and when you start to really scale and build this up and it sounds like when Greg took it over from his father, that's kind of what you guys did you honed in, niched down and really started to scale with your sales techniques.
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Now not, you know, business development one is one thing.
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So when you're going out, what all are you just continuing to try and pursue and grow those relationships?
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Do you expand your territory?
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How do you go find new clients?
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So when I first started here, I honestly had no idea what I was doing.
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All I did know was the customer is everything right.
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Without a customer, we have nothing, and at the end of the day, I work for Redcom, so all I have is my word.
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So those were the two things that drove me, and I had an architect that has been here at the time 20 years.
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I had the head of construction and I had our most senior engineer, site civil engineer and our head estimator.
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So let me take a step back With those four guys.
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When I came here, greg used to work about six or seven months a year and then he would spend the rest of the time with his family.
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So he would go out, get some projects, come back, give them to everybody and then he would go off and do what he wanted to do with his family and then, when they were ready to be sold, greg would jump back in and go sell the deal.
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The team that I was given was hungry.
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Everybody here was hungry for leadership, they were hungry for work and they had positive attitudes.
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So by me showing up, these four people listened to me.
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It was very intimidating for me because I didn't know the difference between a TPO roof and a fully adhered roof.
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I had no idea what I was talking about.
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So they came around to all the meetings with me.
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They helped me.
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I opened the door and they kind of went through the process until I figured out how to do it on my own.
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So I had a great team.
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So what did I do?
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I just, essentially, I looked for associations that we could be a part of.
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So NJ CAR in New Jersey is an automotive association that we were a member of at the time.
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So I became active in that association.
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I became active in the industrial association and I became active in the school organization for private schools, the NJAIS.
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And I went and I met with the presidents, the key KDMs, the key decision makers, the board members and essentially just drove around for a year knocking on doors, trying to meet with people, saying that we're out here, we can help you, we could do a concept, we could do a free concept.
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We could do a site analysis, we could do a feasibility study at no cost.
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So if you're looking for property, call me, I'll help you.
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I'll tell you what your yield is.
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I'll tell you what you can and can't do on the site.
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That's what I did.
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And after a year or so it started to pay dividends.
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Yeah well, yeah, that is a big help.
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And for you to offer that service for free, I'm sure that was attractive.
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You know a lot of.
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You know when you get into the design build, you really have to help these people understand.
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When they look at a piece of land, they don't know what it costs to build it.
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You know they don't know any of these things.
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So when you go in and help somebody that can really establish a relationship, build trust and build the sale, and you know when you're doing it from that perspective, you know you're not normally even having to go through any bidding process, so you guys eliminate 99% of your competitors once you do it that route.
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Let me ask you, let me ask you this so when you guys are finding and you're out searching, do you use a CRM?
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Or how do you operate as far as keeping up with new clients, building on a lead and then maintaining the lead, so you don't lose track of your client?
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So when, when it was just myself here so when I first came for the first six years, it was just Sam Rockaway here and the architects and engineers and I used to use a board you know, like a dry erase board for my leads.
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And then there were too many of them and then I used an Excel file and then the Excel file was too cumbersome and I work with engineers, so everyone's an engineer here, so they all have ideas.
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So we kind of engineered a sales process and we decided to get a CRM when we use Salesforce, which is probably more than we need, but we customized it to have the ability to rank a lead and we put our sales process.
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I meticulously wrote down our sales process.
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We have a sales process that covers three stages stage one, stage two and stage three.
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A sales process that covers three stages stage one, stage two and stage three.
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Stage one are prospects that I mainly deal with and I go out, find, cultivate, bring them in and I put them into our CRM.
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I'll make a note to follow up with them or what have you.
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And then there's stage one If anybody else in the building besides me works on the lead, it becomes a stage two because they have to track their time.
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So the estimator so hey, I need a ballpark.
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Hey, I need a concept.
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Roberto, can you hand sketch me an elevation?
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I'm trying to put a deal together.
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Can you hand sketch me a floor plan?
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So that now is stage two.
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So with stage two, our sales cycle is about two years.
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That's now a stage two.
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So a stage two, our sales cycle is about two years.
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And a stage two will sit there until we do a proposal.
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And after we, if we get the opportunity to do a proposal, once the proposal is presented, it becomes a stage three.
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So really, the professionals are back at.
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You know the engineers and architects are back out of it and it's back into my court.
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So you don't touch it through stage two and then stage three.
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Once you the proposal has been submitted, then it's for you to keep up and try and secure the project.
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I mean I don't touch it in stage two because I'm not an architect and I'm not an engineer, but I've been doing this for so long now.
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I will sit down with them and you know, if I have an idea I'll share it with them, and sometimes you know 90% of the time they have all the ideas, but occasionally I do have an idea.
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I mean, architects and engineers are very talented people.
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Now do you guys?
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What softwares do you use construction-wise?
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Do you incorporate Procore, or do you have self-work software?
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What do you guys work on?
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No, we use Procore.
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We use Sage and Procore for our software, for our finance software, and we use Bamboo for HR-related.
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Okay, and which Sage operating system you know they have intact.
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Now they have 100 and they have 300, which is the old Timberline.
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So we have a brand new Sage system.
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So I don't know.
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Oh, okay, that's probably, if it's the cloud based one, it's the intact.
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So they're moving a lot.
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We have a lot of technology here and we've always been a believer in having the latest and greatest technology, whether it's a computer, an iPad, a cell phone or software.
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And that's really from Greg.
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Yeah, and it's critical.
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Procore is a great project management software and if your team, if you can set it systems in place and your team uses it, you can use it for safety, project manager, all the reports, RFIs.
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It's a great way and architects love it, they work with it, so it's kind of universally adopted, so it's a great software to work with.
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Do you guys incorporate any?
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Have you tried to incorporate any AI for automation of any of these processes to date?
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Not at this point, but we are looking into it what we have incorporated just recently.
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So our architects use Revit.
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We've gotten away from CAD.
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We use Revit and we also use I may pronounce this right a Matterport to measure buildings.
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So if we want to go out and measure or understand the existing conditions of a building, we use what looks like a survey tool.
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It's a Matterport, it's a camera that does a 360 degree shot of everything in a building.
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And now, from what I understand, is that the estimators that'll give the estimators the takeoff and quantities automatically.
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I was not aware of that, I think.
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I thought I think it relates it with, like a lidar style technology.
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But yeah, that that is awesome.
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Yeah, so that is that's a great little tidbit.
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I wasn't aware of that.
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Um, so, it'll do the little takeoff piece on it, so all right.
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So, and then, what are, like, some of the bigger challenges that you guys see in?
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Are you guys looking to continue to grow to another level?
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Where's the long-term view here?
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So over the last 14 years we've doubled in size and it took that long to do this.
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So we I don't know if necessarily want to grow too much.
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You know we expanded out into New York At some point.
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We had an office out in Long Island.
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We we have completed projects in Long Island, like big projects, ground up, dealerships and and as such, we've also done six or seven ground ups in Manhattan.
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It's large, with $150 million.
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And then we've done them in Connecticut, We've done them in Maryland, We've done them in Delaware, Pennsylvania, so we were up to 85 people at one point and it just got too much.
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You know, we're as the crow flies, we're probably 10 miles from New York and you know, and it's mainly me and I'm saying, look guys, I'm going to drive by a million people to go out and try to sell something that's 40 miles away and it takes three hours to get to.
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Let's not do that.
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Let's just stay here in New Jersey and let's try to just focus on the 8 million people that live in New Jersey.
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And if we can't make it here, we're not going to make it anywhere.
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That is smart, so could you give an idea?
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So what is your guys' annual revenue as a company right now?
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Roughly speaking, 70 million, 70 million, and so are you guys are trying to stay at and around the $70 million mark.
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Yeah, $60 to $70 is fine.
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We're happy with that.
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What we're trying to do is be more efficient in the way we build.
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Let's try to shave some time off of projects.
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Let's do buyouts better.
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Let's be more selective with some of the projects we take.
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We're careful with what we take.
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It's a huge commitment to to to sign up a, you know, a 10 or 20 or 30 million dollar project.
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You know you're committed to that person for four years.
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Right and what you guys have created and it's it sounds like you're in the position where you can select that client because you're exactly right, you select a bad client.
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That's a 20 and 30 minute I mean.
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That is, you're basically married to this person for two to three years of time, so even more, and then and then thereafter Right.
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And so you know, when you select these you have to be very careful and it's very difficult for some.
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You know you guys are obviously very well established.
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So other people that are trying to get to this level, you know that's kind of pie in the sky hard to even relate to 20, 30, $40 million projects.
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You know when you're trying to level up to those next levels it's a challenge because you don't have that experience a lot of times.
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When you got, when you started and you were selling some of these things initially, had you guys already been doing the size projects you were selling or were you having to guys already been doing the size projects you were selling or were you having to?
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You know, help and build.
00:19:24.358 --> 00:19:30.738
I mean, if you did 150 million dollar project, that probably was a reach right or beyond your level when you were selling.
00:19:30.738 --> 00:19:33.290
Were you going beyond your level, and how did you approach those?
00:19:33.692 --> 00:19:37.882
so that you're right, that was way beyond our reach, but that was for a family that.
00:19:37.882 --> 00:19:40.867
So we look for clients that want to develop.
00:19:40.867 --> 00:19:43.777
We don't look for clients that have one project and they're going to go away.
00:19:43.777 --> 00:19:47.335
We look for clients like, particularly like in the automotive industry.
00:19:47.335 --> 00:19:53.198
Most auto dealers like say, roger Penske, you know, I don't know a hundred stores.
00:19:53.499 --> 00:19:58.613
You know something like that Ray Katina, here in New Jersey, he's got 20 or 30 stores.
00:19:58.613 --> 00:20:00.316
Open Road has 20 or 30 stores.
00:20:00.316 --> 00:20:14.336
So we look for those type of clients where we can really provide them with the best long-term value the free ice, the free concepts, the free architectural schematics, talking with the brands, so that's all the value to those folks.
00:20:14.336 --> 00:20:15.394
So that's what we look for.
00:20:15.394 --> 00:20:24.525
And then this particular family we had done we probably done $10, $15 million a year for this family for 10 years of work.
00:20:24.525 --> 00:20:32.913
And they had a project in Manhattan and this is how it came about and only because we've been working with them for 10 years.
00:20:32.913 --> 00:20:41.405
We were comfortable enough getting involved with a construction management type job for $150 million.
00:20:41.405 --> 00:20:47.862
And, believe it or not, that building, that dealership, was built on top of a FedEx building.
00:20:47.862 --> 00:20:50.916
What that couldn't close down.
00:20:50.916 --> 00:20:52.917
You know FedEx doesn't close down, yeah, yeah.
00:20:52.917 --> 00:20:55.940
So that was a beast from day one, but it went well.
00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:57.816
It took a couple of years, but it went well.
00:20:57.816 --> 00:20:58.718
Would we do it again?
00:20:58.718 --> 00:20:59.361
Probably not.
00:20:59.569 --> 00:20:59.974
But it went well.
00:20:59.903 --> 00:21:00.229
It took a couple years, but it went well.
00:21:00.229 --> 00:21:00.550
Would we do it again?
00:21:00.479 --> 00:21:14.957
probably not, but it went well so give me, if you could in, in all of your years, what do you look at as your biggest accomplishment that you have here at redcom I?
00:21:14.997 --> 00:21:19.442
think my big, my biggest account like.
00:21:19.442 --> 00:21:21.786
Without the team that I have here I'm not any good.
00:21:21.786 --> 00:21:23.978
So I got to give a lot of credit to the team.
00:21:23.978 --> 00:21:28.410
It's definitely my team that helped me be this successful.
00:21:28.410 --> 00:21:36.904
I guess the biggest accomplishment is we've been able to keep 50 employees here maybe 55, you know employed with health insurance.
00:21:36.904 --> 00:21:47.067
They all have families and everybody's having a life and growing and you get to see their families come in and grow and that's a good feeling.
00:21:47.067 --> 00:21:49.855
We don't lay people off because we don't have any work.
00:21:49.855 --> 00:21:52.500
That's my biggest accomplishment.
00:21:52.500 --> 00:22:01.324
Now, project size I could say I sold a 20 or $30 million, but I get the most enjoyment at knowing that there's still work and everyone's got a job.
00:22:02.570 --> 00:22:03.112
That's right.
00:22:03.112 --> 00:22:07.511
And, to be clear on this, that's because if you don't have sales, you don't have anything.
00:22:07.511 --> 00:22:13.644
So you are one of the main factors in keeping everyone employed.
00:22:13.644 --> 00:22:22.396
So you can't do the operations, you can't show all the beautiful things if somebody doesn't sell something right so nothing happens without, without the sale.
00:22:22.717 --> 00:22:27.894
That's great yeah, right, so it's very meaningful to me so what do you guys?
00:22:28.375 --> 00:22:30.442
what are your company's core values?
00:22:30.442 --> 00:22:31.286
Do you have that?
00:22:31.286 --> 00:22:33.932
Do you have an established core values for you guys?
00:22:34.673 --> 00:22:36.076
yeah, we have core values.
00:22:36.076 --> 00:22:39.521
Uh, you know, collaboration is definitely one of our core values.
00:22:39.521 --> 00:22:40.984
Fun is a core value.
00:22:40.984 --> 00:22:45.089
Vision is a core value that's awesome.
00:22:47.574 --> 00:23:04.234
Do you guys, when you hire um and I understand this isn't your department but when you guys hire, do you use any type of um trait surveys or personality tests to determine whether someone would be a proper fit and have those core values?
00:23:04.234 --> 00:23:06.463
Or how do you guys determine that?
00:23:06.744 --> 00:23:07.326
Yes, we do.
00:23:07.326 --> 00:23:12.645
We do a cultural interview for them and at the same time we do a disc assessment.
00:23:12.645 --> 00:23:28.261
And the disc assessment we don't really use as a personality tool, but we use the DISC assessment to understand how they naturally work at their job and what's their unnatural work habits.
00:23:28.261 --> 00:23:30.458
And then you know we meet them right.
00:23:30.458 --> 00:23:38.262
A lot of people meet with the person it depends on the position but a lot of people meet with them and get a feel for it.
00:23:38.490 --> 00:23:47.122
And then there's five of us on on a team, uh, there's five senior uh managers.
00:23:47.122 --> 00:23:52.836
I guess we're our titles are senior vice presidents and we meet and go over it and try to.
00:23:52.836 --> 00:24:01.121
But you know, it's not just do they have a nice personality, it's their work, history, their skill and a lot that goes into it.
00:24:01.923 --> 00:24:13.825
Okay, do you now with the, when you have 50 people, do you have a training program on your team or do you only hire experienced people?
00:24:14.731 --> 00:24:15.335
So that's it.
00:24:15.335 --> 00:24:18.861
So I am responsible for sales, right?
00:24:18.861 --> 00:24:19.511
I do not.
00:24:19.511 --> 00:24:21.318
I am not responsible for construction.
00:24:21.318 --> 00:24:22.796
I'm not responsible for estimating.
00:24:22.796 --> 00:24:28.843
So we have a construction department, an engineering department and we have an estimating department.
00:24:28.843 --> 00:24:34.722
So estimating and architecture and engineering go to two gentlemen.
00:24:34.722 --> 00:24:38.769
Hr falls to one person and construction falls to one person.
00:24:38.769 --> 00:24:46.237
So I worry about my sales team you know, how big is your sales team?
00:24:46.538 --> 00:24:52.372
I have five people, and how?
00:24:52.372 --> 00:24:54.597
How long have they been there?
00:24:54.597 --> 00:24:56.402
Like what's your longest tenured employee?
00:24:58.250 --> 00:25:03.758
uh, three years on the sales team Okay, it's very difficult to find salespeople.
00:25:05.593 --> 00:25:07.172
Yeah, I was going to say so.
00:25:07.172 --> 00:25:07.996
How are they paid?
00:25:07.996 --> 00:25:14.441
There's different configurations on the business development side industry-wise.
00:25:14.441 --> 00:25:23.536
Do you guys work on a commission-only basis based on revenue, volume of sales, or how do you guys work?
00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:25.053
No, we don't.
00:25:25.053 --> 00:25:25.414
There's no.
00:25:25.414 --> 00:25:32.837
You know, if a salesperson here goes out and sells a job for whatever it is, for $5 million, there's no commission that they get out of that.
00:25:32.837 --> 00:25:36.817
It's just not, you know some, it's just not conducive for that.
00:25:36.817 --> 00:25:43.570
In this type of, in this business, there's a bonus program that everyone is a part of in the company.
00:25:43.570 --> 00:25:48.074
That's, you know, driven off of our, our revenue.
00:25:48.074 --> 00:25:51.442
That's how we do it.
00:25:51.442 --> 00:25:54.148
The same way, yeah, and some, some do.
00:25:54.309 --> 00:25:55.231
Some do that though.
00:25:55.231 --> 00:25:56.797
Some have the business development guys.
00:25:56.797 --> 00:26:01.046
They pay them one, one and a half two percent of revenue.
00:26:01.046 --> 00:26:04.618
Yeah, we don't, we don't it's, it's too much.
00:26:04.878 --> 00:26:10.116
And the other thing is this you can't sell somebody something for five, ten or twenty million dollars.
00:26:10.116 --> 00:26:16.249
It has to be a well thought out decision that involves a team of people.
00:26:16.249 --> 00:26:20.445
No matter what, you can't sell it to them, it has to work financially.
00:26:21.035 --> 00:26:30.045
Yep, yeah, and it's typically a lot of negotiation back and forth and the disadvantage when you're doing that is you typically don't have control whether the deal goes or not.
00:26:31.214 --> 00:26:31.435
Right?
00:26:31.435 --> 00:26:32.380
No, it's just.
00:26:32.380 --> 00:26:38.721
You know we do a pro forma for every customer we have, based on market rents in the area.
00:26:38.721 --> 00:26:53.143
So if they're putting an addition on and they plan to rent it out, we'll do a pro forma for them and we'll look at rents, that recent rents, and we'll, this way, that'll tell me if our price is in line.
00:26:53.143 --> 00:27:02.270
It could still be high, but it may not be too high as long as the deal pencils and we give them the payoff times and we take into consideration all the variables.
00:27:02.270 --> 00:27:03.575
That would go into a pro forma.
00:27:03.575 --> 00:27:09.167
I have a dedicated MBA here, working here and that's what she does.
00:27:09.167 --> 00:27:12.284
And she does other things too, but that's one of the things she does.
00:27:14.135 --> 00:27:15.663
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:27:15.663 --> 00:27:19.306
That is a tremendous benefit that you offer.
00:27:19.306 --> 00:27:23.924
Do you guys ever, when you're doing that, partner in on the deals?
00:27:23.924 --> 00:27:30.286
When you're doing that, has your company ever partnered in with developers on the projects?
00:27:30.487 --> 00:27:33.564
Yes, so we do two things.
00:27:33.564 --> 00:27:38.019
We do construction right, that's our primary source of revenue but we also buy land.
00:27:38.019 --> 00:27:47.083
So we buy land, we get it approved and then we sell it, and sometimes, when we buy land, we would buy land with someone else.
00:27:47.083 --> 00:27:53.483
Sometimes we'll do a JV, but same goal we're going to build it and we're going to sell it.
00:28:00.375 --> 00:28:00.934
And sometimes we hold it.
00:28:00.934 --> 00:28:04.357
So we have a couple that we're holding and we'll just they're leased out.
00:28:04.357 --> 00:28:05.077
So so what are you?
00:28:05.077 --> 00:28:09.080
Where are you guys looking to be in the next five years?
00:28:09.080 --> 00:28:19.088
So you, you, based on what you're telling me you're, you're staying just in the New Jersey area, because you've expanded way out and now you've kind of pulled it all closer right, mm-hmm.
00:28:19.088 --> 00:28:29.196
So is the goal just to maintain and stay in that realm, or is there any major pursuits?
00:28:29.196 --> 00:28:40.221
You guys are going after Any additional automotive industries that you really have your goals set on, or do you see a rise in your industrial division.
00:28:40.241 --> 00:28:41.884
I think so A couple of questions there.
00:28:41.884 --> 00:28:48.066
The industrial division, because the interest rates are so high.
00:28:48.145 --> 00:28:48.807
I don't know if you.
00:28:48.989 --> 00:28:51.718
You know you're from North Carolina, I think right, yes, sir.
00:28:52.118 --> 00:28:53.301
Yeah, we're in New Jersey.
00:28:53.301 --> 00:29:02.041
So if you drive along the New Jersey Turnpike, over the last seven years there've been millions and millions of square foot of warehouses built.
00:29:02.041 --> 00:29:07.702
Some of them are as large as a million square feet and some of them are a hundred thousand square feet.
00:29:07.702 --> 00:29:18.309
But there's a lot of them Now and that's because of the internet, amazons and all the E transactions that have happened and continue to happen.
00:29:26.674 --> 00:29:30.221
But interest rates, as soon as they started to go up, the REITs that generally buy these facilities they look at it differently than us.
00:29:30.221 --> 00:29:35.151
You know, if they're, if they're square foot prices off by 50 cents, they're going to pause and they're going to wait unless their basis is good.
00:29:35.151 --> 00:29:37.780
So it's just a math problem at this point for those folks.
00:29:37.780 --> 00:29:51.326
And then the users, who the mom and pops like the mom and pops that have a $20 million warehouse they're not really mom and pops, but they're small companies They'll buy 50 to 100, 150,000 square foot buildings.
00:29:51.385 --> 00:30:01.977
They're still out there doing it right now, but it's just based on more like where their employees come from and where their homes are and how long does it take them to get to their office.
00:30:01.977 --> 00:30:09.016
On the automotive side, you know it's driven by brands and the schools.
00:30:09.016 --> 00:30:10.179
They're decimated.
00:30:10.179 --> 00:30:20.948
And they're not decimated, but they're ever since COVID, the private schools, they're all trying to get students, so it's all about how many students they have and what type of projects they want to do.
00:30:20.948 --> 00:30:26.508
We're looking to grow and to expand our residential work and multifamily.
00:30:27.155 --> 00:30:39.196
OK we're looking to acquire more land and we're looking to get into into, you know, life sciences, and that's pretty broad life science.
00:30:39.217 --> 00:30:42.357
That's like saying yeah, I was going to ask you, could you expand on that a little bit?
00:30:42.357 --> 00:30:45.624
What specific area in that?
00:30:45.624 --> 00:30:47.989
What would that look like?
00:30:47.989 --> 00:30:49.960
That's a good question.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:53.316
So we're going through that process now so I can tell you what we're not going to do.
00:30:53.316 --> 00:30:54.838
We're not going to try to build a hospital.
00:30:54.838 --> 00:30:58.988
We're not going to try to build anything over 40 million dollars.
00:30:58.988 --> 00:31:04.346
We'll probably have to partner up with an architect that really understands that market.
00:31:08.536 --> 00:31:13.008
Yeah, so do you, and you know I haven't heard you speak much.
00:31:13.008 --> 00:31:14.211
Do you work still?
00:31:14.211 --> 00:31:15.695
I know you said school assistant.
00:31:15.695 --> 00:31:17.442
Do you work with any local government?
00:31:17.442 --> 00:31:21.286
Do you guys bid any work or is it only design build?
00:31:22.095 --> 00:31:23.179
No, we do bid work.
00:31:23.179 --> 00:31:30.807
We do bid work and during my tenure we used to only sell it as a design build job.
00:31:30.807 --> 00:31:38.229
So if we could not in New Jersey, you need a site approval to build something, and if you want me to talk about that, I can.
00:31:38.229 --> 00:31:46.057
It's a very complex process and it takes anywhere from a year to two and a half years, depending on what outside agencies are involved.
00:31:46.660 --> 00:31:55.198
I would love you to go through that how you guys do your feasibility study, through that, if we could get kind of on a high level for somebody to understand it.
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.750
I can, but I'll finish this design build question.
00:31:57.750 --> 00:32:04.147
So we used to only sell design build jobs where we took on the site approval, the architecture and the construction.
00:32:04.147 --> 00:32:09.106
But it was very difficult to price up something that was going to be built in three years.
00:32:09.106 --> 00:32:18.509
So at some point people would take advantage of the concept free concept work that we did, because this was all for free until they signed a contract.
00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:23.547
So we started to separate out the engineering and architecture and just give them consulting agreements.
00:32:23.547 --> 00:32:25.602
Right, we're a very competitive price.
00:32:25.602 --> 00:32:27.638
So we do engineering.
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:32.368
It's not really it's design build, but it's engineering with a separate contract.
00:32:32.368 --> 00:32:34.799
So if they're not happy with us, they could walk away Anytime.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:38.388
We'll give them the plans, architecture with a separate contract.
00:32:38.388 --> 00:32:41.086
But again, if they're not happy, they could stop.
00:32:41.086 --> 00:32:44.459
If they just want to use us for architecture, they could do that.
00:32:44.459 --> 00:33:08.931
And then, while we're going through the approval process, if they're happy with us and we're meeting their expectations and we're happy with them as a client, then we'll try to convert that opportunity into a project and start talking about like, all right, what's it going to actually take to build this project from a budgeting standpoint, timing, and have discussions and move the ball forward.
00:33:08.931 --> 00:33:15.214
That's what we, that's what we like to do, and everyone's no one's handcuffed to anybody anymore.
00:33:15.435 --> 00:33:29.924
It's just you don't like us, go ahead right because obviously you know when you're going through these iterations, you're starting with a complete budget and when you talk at this long timeline that I would love you to go through a little bit more.
00:33:29.924 --> 00:33:31.175
We're looking at that long timeline.
00:33:31.175 --> 00:33:32.198
You set that initial budget.
00:33:32.198 --> 00:33:35.444
The market market is moving, you've got tons of commodities, everything.
00:33:35.444 --> 00:33:37.136
It's like we're going through now with tariffs.
00:33:37.136 --> 00:33:37.878
You don't know.
00:33:37.878 --> 00:33:39.746
This is a moving target.
00:33:39.746 --> 00:33:46.507
So the deal might work when you initially run a budget and then it doesn't work when you're eight months down the line.
00:33:47.214 --> 00:33:47.335
Right.
00:33:47.335 --> 00:33:50.298
So I'll talk about the site approval process in New Jersey.
00:33:50.298 --> 00:33:59.088
So I'm not sure what it is in other states, but I just signed up a $10 million contract for a very large dealership that located out of another state.
00:33:59.088 --> 00:34:04.924
Because they found us online and they sent me an email and said hey, I'd like you to bid this project.
00:34:04.924 --> 00:34:10.324
So I got on the phone with them and then said great, what's the status of your approval?
00:34:10.324 --> 00:34:12.976
And their answer was what approval?
00:34:12.976 --> 00:34:16.806
We have permits, which they didn't have, but we have building permits.
00:34:16.806 --> 00:34:18.722
You can't get a building permit without a site approval.
00:34:18.722 --> 00:34:27.759
So once I understood that they didn't have a site approval, I explained to them what was needed and that's how I got the job.
00:34:29.541 --> 00:34:35.570
So in New Jersey, if, if there's, if it's raw land, you obviously need a site approval.
00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:43.248
If it's an existing building and you're going to change the footprint in any way, shape or form, you need a site approval.
00:34:43.248 --> 00:34:48.306
Like, even if you just add a canopy, you're going to need some kind of an approval for that.
00:34:48.306 --> 00:34:50.539
So let's just take a raw piece of land.
00:34:50.539 --> 00:34:54.608
Or you're going to take an addition, say, at 40 or 50,000 square feet.
00:34:54.608 --> 00:34:59.594
It doesn't matter what size it is, it can be 5 million square feet or 10,000 square feet.
00:34:59.594 --> 00:35:09.844
It's the same exact process and it costs about $500,000 to get through an approval process in New Jersey, plus the fees at the end.
00:35:09.844 --> 00:35:13.619
So you could spend close to a million bucks on an approval in New Jersey.
00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:14.583
So you have outside agencies.
00:35:14.583 --> 00:35:15.407
You have the local right the end.
00:35:15.407 --> 00:35:17.195
So you could spend close to a million bucks on an approval in New Jersey.
00:35:17.195 --> 00:35:21.755
So you have outside agencies.
00:35:21.755 --> 00:35:22.498
You have the local right.
00:35:22.498 --> 00:35:28.076
The town that has to approve the project Does areas zone for a particular use, and then you could go for a use change, which is very challenging.
00:35:28.076 --> 00:35:33.237
So we try to just stick with the current use and work within the confines of the zoning.
00:35:33.237 --> 00:35:39.913
So you have those approvals and then the outside agencies, depending on where the facility is located.
00:35:39.972 --> 00:35:44.250
If it's located on a state highway, you'll need the Department of Transportation's approval.
00:35:44.250 --> 00:35:56.789
If it's on a county road, you'll need the county approvals, you'll need the soil district approval and you'll need the approval from the Department of Environmental Protection.
00:35:56.789 --> 00:36:19.369
So if your property is not affected by any wetlands or anything DEP related, then you just need a letter of no interest right, which will take six months, but you'll have to get a biologist to walk the site and confirm that there's really no plants or endangered species or turtles or anything like that on the site.
00:36:19.369 --> 00:36:20.070
And then you do that.
00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:34.045
If it's on a DOT highway, the state highway, then you're going to need to get a traffic engineer and understand the trip generations and what you're doing, and that could take two years.
00:36:34.045 --> 00:36:36.597
It's taken two and a half years.
00:36:36.617 --> 00:36:37.699
That is the critical path.
00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:40.748
The DOT in New Jersey is the critical path to every project.
00:36:40.748 --> 00:36:49.643
And then if you have any airports located near you, you just you got to get the blessing from the FAA, which is pretty easy, but it's just one more outside agency.
00:36:49.643 --> 00:37:02.208
And if you're near any rails, any public transportation like New Jersey Transit and we do have two projects going on with that right now you have to notify the railroad.
00:37:02.208 --> 00:37:03.800
You got to be a certain distance away from it.
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:15.706
If not, there's a process I'm not too familiar with that because we don't do too much of it but you have to notify a railroad and explain to them what you're doing and get a permit from them.
00:37:17.755 --> 00:37:24.257
And so all of these things are in your first piece that we're talking about when you're doing your consulting agreement.
00:37:24.257 --> 00:37:26.182
This is all of the engineering.
00:37:26.182 --> 00:37:42.811
So first you're getting all of these studies, so they're laying out the initial site plan, and then, once they have that initial site plan, then they're going through all of the different agencies, getting one to approve, another to approve, another to approve.
00:37:42.811 --> 00:37:46.922
One will give you a comment wait another month, wait another couple months.
00:37:46.922 --> 00:37:47.864
Got to go back.
00:37:47.864 --> 00:38:06.385
You know, work on the design, more design, more, uh, and so these things can take a long time, and so you have to have a educated group alongside of you that knows how to get you through that process or this, this process that might take you to what you say six months a year, two years.
00:38:06.385 --> 00:38:11.498
If someone doesn't have that that, you can go ahead double that and they're not gonna.
00:38:11.518 --> 00:38:12.099
Yeah, they're not.
00:38:12.099 --> 00:38:25.561
They really need local people, and then nothing's going to work and all the stormwater management that goes with it.
00:38:25.561 --> 00:38:33.965
They changed the flood hazard regulations, they're changing the wetland, the DEP rules and regulations again, and you have to comply with all of that.
00:38:33.965 --> 00:38:37.494
Now rules and regulations again, and you have to comply with all of that.
00:38:37.494 --> 00:38:45.731
Now you know, historically you'd be able to put one basin at the end of the site, on the slow side of the site, and have all the water drain to that basin and then slowly drain out into the system.
00:38:45.731 --> 00:38:47.559
Now they don't want that anymore.
00:38:47.559 --> 00:39:02.447
So now you have to put multiple basins around the facility and you have to make sure you have to prove that through math and calculations that the engineers do that that water drains properly.
00:39:02.447 --> 00:39:07.125
And that runs $30 to $40 a square foot.
00:39:08.047 --> 00:39:11.664
Right, and so this is the biggest challenge that I see.
00:39:11.664 --> 00:39:17.088
They make all of these things so unaffordable to do.
00:39:17.088 --> 00:39:38.449
You touch a building, you update a building, there are so many regulatory expenses that leaves very little for the consumer, the end user, to be able to really select what they want, because all of the money goes to all of the different regulations that someone has to fulfill and abide by.
00:39:38.449 --> 00:39:47.340
And then you're stuck with, you know, trying to make the money work for the client while giving them something that they want, and that's the biggest challenge, as I see, in construction.
00:39:48.023 --> 00:40:10.050
Well, when I'm talking to someone and that's one of the first things I talk about is the site approval process we don't give lump sum prices, we give budgets, we give, say, listen, this is what we think it's going to cost and this is why and it's based on this If town folks come out to the hearing and you have 100 people or 50 people, even just one person contesting your project, you may have to go back.
00:40:10.050 --> 00:40:14.425
You may have to go back and back and back, and we've gone to some hearings 14 times.
00:40:14.425 --> 00:40:24.483
We've gotten denied by towns that the projects were as of right, with no variances, and we're still denied and we're in court.
00:40:24.483 --> 00:40:24.704
Now.
00:40:24.704 --> 00:40:25.829
You know I mean this.
00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:28.235
Just, it's just very difficult in new jersey.
00:40:28.235 --> 00:40:35.068
There's no guarantee that someone's going to get it approved, even if there's no variances, even if it's as of right.
00:40:35.068 --> 00:40:36.016
It's very risky.
00:40:36.016 --> 00:40:40.324
That's why the returns are big.
00:40:40.324 --> 00:40:49.657
If you can get a piece of land for $20 or $30 a foot and you get it approved, you'll spend a million dollars, but you'll be able to triple the value of that land.
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:58.115
Yeah, now that is where the rubber meets the road on development and being able to make money.
00:40:58.115 --> 00:41:09.014
If you can get, if you can understand and properly entitled property, you can create a ton of value because then you can sell that off to someone and they can hit the ground running right.
00:41:09.014 --> 00:41:14.079
Then you know, make you know they, they have all the parameters they need to abide by so they know what they're buying.
00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:21.346
It's a lot easier to sell the land because you could be buying a piece of land that doesn't have any of those approvals and don't know what it's worth.
00:41:21.827 --> 00:41:28.896
It's just nothing so it creates tons and tons of value to bring that, so that's amazing.
00:41:28.896 --> 00:41:34.585
So if people are in your area and wanted to, you know, work with you, sam and Redcom.
00:41:34.585 --> 00:41:37.130
What is the best way to reach out to you?
00:41:39.117 --> 00:41:46.465
They can find me on LinkedIn I have a pretty active profile on LinkedIn or they can call our office and ask for me.
00:41:47.208 --> 00:41:47.547
Awesome.
00:41:47.547 --> 00:41:50.983
Well, I sincerely appreciate you coming on today.
00:41:50.983 --> 00:41:52.114
It's been very informative.
00:41:52.114 --> 00:41:53.880
I think it's been a lot of help.
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:55.324
I sincerely appreciate you coming on today.
00:41:55.324 --> 00:41:56.427
It's been very informative.
00:41:56.427 --> 00:42:08.885
I think it's been a lot of help and I think, if anybody's in the New Jersey area, you've definitely proven yourself to be as knowledgeable as possible, and so you know looking to invest in that area and you're looking to do anything with automotive, expand your automotive grasp or you know doing.
00:42:08.885 --> 00:42:17.878
It sounds like you've got a lot of industrial build-out already going there, but you also you're going through land entitlement or looking for land for building multifamily.
00:42:17.878 --> 00:42:19.358
He'd be a great person to reach out to.
00:42:19.358 --> 00:42:20.197
Sam.
00:42:20.197 --> 00:42:22.298
I really appreciate you jumping on with us today.
00:42:22.298 --> 00:42:23.880
We've enjoyed having you and speaking with you.
00:42:24.219 --> 00:42:25.019
Well, thank you very much.
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:28.400
I appreciate being on the show and thanks for taking the time out to meet with me.
00:42:28.721 --> 00:42:29.981
Yes, sir, I hope you have a great day.
00:42:30.302 --> 00:42:30.621
You too.
00:42:31.255 --> 00:42:31.697
Bye.