WEBVTT
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00:00:01.943Talking about blood, sweat and tears.
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00:00:06.814As a leader of an organization, what are you straining with at the moment?
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00:00:09.564What am I straining with?
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00:00:10.327That's a good question.
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00:00:25.015I think it's a constant challenge of how far can you progress and how fast you can do that, and sometimes that's the things that you can do.
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00:00:32.243A lot of that is what's in your control, what you prioritize, uh, where you push projects or or people and your teams forward.
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00:00:43.529But there's also areas of interaction with the industry, um, and is the industry ready for new models or new ways of thinking about things?
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00:01:16.914And so for us, it's really um, you know, I think, the way that the industry thinks about a lot of things in terms of ownership models and funding models, it's quite traditional, it's quite conservative, and so the thing that we're constantly pushing is that the demand from consumers and from the market is there, and if we scratch one level between what a person or an organization says they're doing and look at, okay, what is it fulfilling for your central customer?
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00:01:25.293That's where the beneficial conversations are, because, as we all know, you know, we, as grid, we're focused on the, the residential housing market.
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00:01:35.596It's an incredibly difficult time, and so we you know there's that saying that you keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, then, um, like that's.
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00:01:44.313That's the definition of, of insanity, um, and so I think that what we're seeing now is that it is a fertile market for innovation.
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00:01:52.650In a way, I think some of the roots of innovation come from real, real need and and often challenging market conditions.
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00:01:59.801Buyers are struggling with affordability and developers are struggling with, um, housing costs and labor costs and material costs.
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00:02:10.675So I think for us, it's just pushing through that and getting the message out there that there are ways to do things better, even if that's different.
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00:02:18.133So you mentioned about developers, and there's a number of clients that you're trying to help and they're your clients.
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00:02:25.997But for those that have never heard of you or what you're trying to do, what three things would you give as advice for developers?
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00:02:40.823And at the back end of that, what then would you say for those people that are looking to purchase a home, to help them buy the right home for them, not just right now, but also one that takes them forward into the future?
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00:02:43.007yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
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00:02:56.747So I think advice to developers we've mentioned it before, but you know there are massive challenges on this transition a future home standard and just generally energy transition.
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00:03:05.531But also the market, buyers incredibly challenged with affordability, developers also on the costs of building materials.
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00:03:15.073I think there has to be a move away from regulations as as being the, the standard.
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00:03:36.948Really, that should be looked at as the minimum and I think, as we mentioned, the challenges right now require both innovation and ambition and I think it's that taking, taking on this ability to solve some of your problems that you're having with some of the ideas and solutions that are out there, um, I would say.
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00:03:44.614The other one is what we've seen sometimes is there's a little bit of inertia specifically revolving around the technology.
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00:03:47.502Uh, and it's understandable, right?
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00:03:51.277We've seen air source heat pumps have obviously come quite a long way.
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00:03:55.829There's also ground source heat networks and other shared heat, shared heat networks.
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00:04:07.413Those are kind of the emerging front runners in heating and hot water and there are others, um, but in a way, solar and battery has become pretty stable.
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00:04:11.227It's most people have really high confidence in those two things as technology.
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00:04:18.600So you're not there shouldn't be this, this kind of real worry about oh, if we put this in now, this thing's going to get replaced.
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00:04:27.644Those kind of four technologies I've mentioned are already barely stable, either the already front runners or emerging as such.
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00:04:53.410Um, and, and I'd say you know, the last thing is and it links to the consumer point is that not only the consumers want things beyond that, go beyond regulations, but also there has to be this strong understanding of a consumer proposition and the way that it links to that financial offering.
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00:05:17.848And I think that the challenge that consumers have and developers have by by you know, but that virtue is, newer offerings, even where they have really high economic arguments and benefits, need to be well understood by consumers, uh, in order to for them to kind of get on board with a different way of doing it.
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00:05:25.091So I think for consumers, it's really about if you understand what the offering is from a financial point of view.
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00:05:29.007What, like we talked about, is there an investment that is tied to this?
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00:05:30.391What's the return?
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00:05:32.764You know, how long is it going to take me to pay it back?
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00:05:35.189What are the savings and the risks?
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00:05:48.531If you can understand that, then when you are presented with different offerings and we're one of a few then you can start to build a picture as to does this suit me or does this actually not suit me?
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00:05:51.807Right now and later down the line I will.
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00:06:12.012And what we have been building with Grid is really this flexibility to get the benefits of solar but not be tied into having to own it and in a way, you're kind of of getting we like to say it's the benefit of a, of a getting a premium home, but without, without the cost associated with it.
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00:06:30.055And so, yeah, I'll kind of it brings us back to that real core message of we're working with developers to future-proof their, their new homes, um and homes, and doing it at zero hardware costs, really for the same battery.
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00:07:07.668I like that, especially the concept of you're taking green technology or perceived green technology and putting that into the utility space and using it on the subscription model, like you would with your broadband or maybe even in netflix or disney or whatever kind of tv package that the dico, instead of taking a capital sum and then calling it an investment but really parking it in some way that's going to sit there for a long time and not really work that hard for you exactly.
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00:07:18.572I mean, the way that any large-scale renewable is invested in is like large-scale infrastructure, right, solar farm, wind farm, and so it's.
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00:07:32.072There needs to be that unraveling of this idea that a local level infrastructure like on-site generation storage, the only mechanism is for you to own it.
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00:07:36.906It's kind of I mean, if people could generate their own broadband on site, I feel like people would do that.
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00:07:56.310That's right, um, and so it's the same way that you went from having to buy and own lots of CDs and lots of music to now you have access to the whole world's library through subscription one of the things that, um, that I have discovered is that there needs to be three breakthroughs.
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00:07:58.740What is the breakthrough with myself?
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00:08:00.300So I need to change my thinking.
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00:08:02.343Then I need to have a breakthrough with my team.
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00:08:05.350I need to have my team change their thinking.
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00:08:14.915And then the next breakthrough is those customers that are closest, that are maybe the early adopters, to take that to them and have a breakthrough with them.
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00:08:25.492But the start and I make reference to you being a leader of an organization the start is always with the leader of that organization having that breakthrough themselves, being able to see something differently.
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00:08:32.114And I really love the point that you made that you do need a challenge and a problem in order to come up with something great.
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00:08:35.328Greatness doesn't happen because there are no problems.
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00:08:55.740Greatness happens because there is a problem, and I think that in the whole discussion around ESG and people talk a lot about net zero and definitely within the residential space there is a problem and there are few people that see excitement in the fact that there's a problem.
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00:09:10.542I'm one of those people that see and feel excited because there is a problem, because I know at the back end of it there's something great that will come out yeah, no, it's uh, you know we're aligned 100 on that and I left.
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00:09:27.711I left my engineering uh career as a of an engineering consultant to pursue this and to build something in this space that helps homes easily transition, not only to things that are sustainable, but things that fundamentally save them, uh, on their builds.
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00:09:48.971So my experience before was all about designing large-scale engineering infrastructure on mixed-use developments in the UK and abroad, so things like campuses, towns and even whole regions out in Saudi Arabia.
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00:10:09.556I think when I saw the energy crisis happening, I'd already had all of this great experience working on energy projects and doing design and management, um, but the thing that catalyzed it was well, this is a huge challenge and a curiosity as to the solutions also exist.
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00:10:27.616Right, we, you know, you and I know that anyone who, when the energy crisis started, they could have, if they were able to, purchased, a heat pump, solar pv and some batteries and they could highly initiate themselves from from energy crisis weeks.
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00:10:39.671Now, as you and I both know, there are massive challenges within that journey in terms of it's your home, right, except, you know, for a heat pump, do I need xyz in first?
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00:10:53.328But the the biggest barrier really is well, it's not necessarily a very accessible route for you to have to fork out 15 000 plus to do that and the payback on that takes a long time.
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00:11:20.835But, as you, you know, coming back to what you, what you asked, fundamentally my belief when I left um, coming up to about yeah, three, three and a half years ago now, was this is a huge problem the energy crisis and the energy transition and who's going to solve this for the homes in a way that really makes sense economically and is equitable and can do it at scale?
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00:11:23.011And that's why I dumped out.
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00:11:33.552And still, you know, what gets me up every day in the morning is how do we make this energy transition more accessible, more equitable uh, equitable for homes?
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00:11:35.615so how do you do that?
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00:11:38.307I'm just thinking back now to younger version of baron.
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00:11:41.895I've shared this on previous podcasts before is um?
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00:12:23.615I was brought up by parents that didn't have any money and I know that 15 000 pounds or the equivalent of back then it would have just been miles and miles average for for them that they would have been keen to um use renewable technology, not just because of the price swings but also because of swings, but also because of the feeling of having something that you are able to have on your property that is generating energy and that's more sustainable than just building from a coal-fired power station and and other reasons as well.
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00:12:26.303So just looking at that as a big obstacle.
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00:12:27.828So they would have the desire.
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00:12:35.217Absolutely, you want this technology, but in terms of that access to to get that, you know absolutely no hope at all.
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00:12:38.529Are you saying that you're trying to bridge that gap?
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00:12:41.274100.
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00:13:06.991So it's, I think, to start with, the way people think about renewables traditionally is you don't have them on your home yet, and the only way for you to access the benefits and the savings that come from it are for you to own it, and that means either you need the upfront cash or, increasingly, what the market has provided solutions for is financing.
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00:13:22.051But the challenge with both of those is firstly, it doesn't really and I know you spoke, you speak quite a lot about this on some of your podcasts is the financial literacy part of it.
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00:13:46.336So, if you are financing something that is a loan and that is an investment that you're making and and there has to be for it to make sense a financial return, and so we know renewables drive savings, but typically it can take 8 to 12 years to pay off that initial upfront investment, and so there are a lot of people who just aren't going to be in their property long enough.
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00:13:49.414We hear that time and time again are a lot of people who just aren't going to be in their property long enough.
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00:13:50.076We hear that time and time again.
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00:14:04.191And so, from from our point of view, the the solutions that exist are all about owning something which you're liable for the maintenance and the upkeep, you're tied in potentially to that property and it's just.
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00:14:11.467It's an outdated way of thinking about it really the other thing with that as well, as you're talking about the payback period.
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00:14:40.529So if I've got ten thousand pounds and and the only way that I'm benefiting from that ten thousand pounds is to wait for seven or eight years, that isn't a really good smart investment if all you've got is £10,000, because you can put that £10,000 somewhere else and you, within that eight year period, can probably get somewhere like maybe even £25,000, maybe £30,000, maybe £40,000.
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00:14:43.618You'd be thinking that's a really good return on investment.
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00:14:58.443So the scenario that you just painted there, just to kind of make this clear for the audience, is you invest £15,000 and in eight years time you've got a return as in you've paid that £15,000 off Exactly.
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00:15:02.254So that's not like getting Apple shares or Tesla stock.
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00:15:26.557Yeah, if all I've got is 15 000 pounds and I'm looking for a good return on the investment, then it's really going to be low on my list to go and get this type of technology, because the return on that investment it just doesn't make sense yeah, and and it's compounded by the fact that typically the sell-through value of renewables is unproven.
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00:15:32.166So let's say, I guess, that the two things are like you said could I invest my?
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00:15:33.914You know the opportunity cost of this investment?
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00:15:36.024Could it be better invested elsewhere?
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00:15:42.885The second one is how long am I going to be in this house, tied to this asset, for it to for me to recoup that?
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00:16:01.500Um, and if you look at the statistics, about 60% of first-time buyers move within five years and typically, even though the average tenure is a bit higher, most people put themselves as, within that five to eight year period of when they're going to leave.
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00:16:07.979Most people, you know, they kind of over over egg a little bit as to when, how soon, they'll leave.
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00:16:09.850They think they're going to leave sooner than they typically do.
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00:16:17.371But what that creates is this anxiety about well, darren, why should I invest 10k if I might leave in year five?
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00:16:37.538Because, as, as I was saying we, it's still so unproven that if I sell the house that somebody else is gonna add out, add on 5k or more, and for that to be a genuine return on investment, so it's still, you know it, just it really, when you kind of start looking at it.
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00:16:44.048There are lots of financial reasons as to why it doesn't make sense for a lot of people but what you would do is if you had your own house.
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00:16:53.393You would say, well, I'm going to renovate the kitchen maybe, or the bathroom, because I know, if I renovate maybe I've got an open plan kitchen, I can include a diner in there.
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00:16:57.349I've got a nice new kitchen in there with good work tops.
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00:17:04.150I know that is going to add to the value of the house yeah, exactly so there are the the signals.
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00:17:14.031The price signals from the market for renewables are just so much weaker than the price signals for a new kitchen, an extension, an additional bedroom.
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00:17:28.394Those effectively have proven our roi's return on investments, whereas the renewables it's a lot more down to who that buyer is when they come and there's just a lot more sensitivity in the market for that.
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00:17:30.136So you just may not get that back.
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00:17:31.920So we're all feeling that pain.
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00:17:33.351We all know where that is.
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00:17:36.875What is it that you're doing to, or what is a path to overcome that problem?
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00:17:47.897Yeah, so the path that we've looked at and you mentioned bridging the gap is new homes have standards to meet for reducing carbon.
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00:18:15.076The problem is those regulations aren't designed to meet the homeowner's needs in terms of energy security and resilience and savings, and so what we do is we fund an optimal size system onto a new built home on behalf of the developer, taking away that risk of them funding something that they won't get a return for, and we take away the need for ownership from homes.
00:18:15.637 -->
00:18:24.579So we're effectively putting on premium features much more solar battery, zero hardware cost.
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00:18:43.915So it's a more affordable home to buy for a buyer and build for a developer, and then it's cheaper to run because instead of a developer only putting two to four panels on or none at all in the current regulatory environment, we've put on sometimes 200, 300 percent.
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00:18:44.597That so it.
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00:19:21.394Yes, we on one of our sites we went from a developer doing four panels, no battery, to 16 panels and a large battery, so suddenly the home has 70 to 75% of their energy needs completely secured, versus in the other scenario, they're paying the capex for those four panels, but they also have very limited security on their energy so that's completely changed the model, so that what that then means is you become the energy supplier to that house yeah, in a way it's a energy, energy service provider.
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00:19:24.847So we, our model is also, we don't.
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00:19:33.251It's not on a per unit basis, which is another you know way important thing to explain to homeowners.
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00:19:34.434It's more like broadband.
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00:19:47.549So every month the cost is, is the exact same for the electricity from the solar and battery, and a home will still have their other energy retailer of choice that they can, they can use.
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00:19:55.601We make suggestions which ones can save them the most, and then, um, you can, you know, there's no restrictions on on the usage.
00:19:55.601 -->
00:20:01.746So they could use every kilowatt hour of energy from the solar battery in that month and it wouldn't make any difference.
00:20:01.746 -->
00:20:07.272And it typically uh secures about 70 percent of their overall electricity needs.
00:20:07.272 -->
00:20:25.413So they know, let's say, £70 a month, that's how much they're going to pay in January, all the way to grid, all the way throughout the year, and the only part that changes is the bit that they're getting from their retailer.
00:20:26.926 -->
00:20:28.190So how does that work then?
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00:20:55.536When someone lives in that property, say for two years, and then they decide to move out, and I'm making a big assumption here that, um, that your contract is for longer than two years, and maybe this, I don't know, say there's five years, as an example, and then so I move into that property, I then have to agree to sign up with yourself because I've moved in that property as the new owner.
00:20:55.536 -->
00:20:56.445Is that the way that it works?
00:20:56.886 -->
00:20:57.628yeah, effectively.
00:20:57.628 -->
00:21:04.448So, though our agreement is like upstream of you, of the first purchaser and with the developer.
00:21:04.448 -->
00:21:17.199The first purchaser has the right on day one to buy the system outright, typically cheaper than it would cost for a retrofit or to subscribe, and the reason is in a in their first year.
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00:21:26.851We're typically looking at anywhere from 350 to 450 plus in savings without them adding any extra cost onto the purchase price of the house.
00:21:26.851 -->
00:21:34.291So they're getting that 350 plus savings locked in, increasing year on year because of increasing energy prices.
00:21:34.291 -->
00:21:40.934So after two years they didn't pay a 10k premium and they got those savings and they can walk away.
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00:21:49.112And the way that we're set up contractually is it's not a higher purchase, it's not, you know, it's not these kind of car financing models where you are liable at the end to pay it off.
00:21:49.112 -->
00:21:50.874It's not, you know, it's not these kind of car financing models where you are liable at the end to pay it off.
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00:22:11.881It's actually sits with the property and then it puts the owners on the next purchaser to, who has again equal choice to buy outright before they move in if they don't want a subscription they think they're going to be there long term or to subscribe, um, and that choice exists in perpetuity really.
00:22:11.881 -->
00:22:33.401And so, after you know, our contract lengths are 25 years, um, at the end of those 25 years the system is gifted to um, whoever owns the property, and but along that you know that timeline the buyout price is decreasing linearly and they always have the choice.
00:22:33.401 -->
00:22:34.727So it's literally like the upgrade.
00:22:34.748 -->
00:22:42.756You know, if you, there are so many apps that we now have and you can upgrade your service level, right, and you can get you go from ChatGPT to ChatGPT Plus.
00:22:42.756 -->
00:22:44.230So it's the same thing.
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00:23:05.595If you want to, suddenly you say I don't want to subscribe anymore, I want to own, you literally go into the grid app and make the request that you want to purchase the system outright, and it would be like that, and we think that that's a lot better solution than homes being built with two to four panels and then downstream a buyer goes.
00:23:05.595 -->
00:23:08.641You know, we've talked to installers about this as well.
00:23:08.641 -->
00:23:24.892Some of them are anecdotally talking about we've had to rip out, you know, because a lot of the newer builds two to four panels in roof and they're saying we've then ripped out the roof tiles to add in and retrofit an additional system alongside it.
00:23:24.892 -->
00:23:29.926So it's, you know, we're future-proofing these new homes by by putting these systems, maximizing them.
00:23:30.346 -->
00:23:35.096So so effectively the system is linked to the mortgage.
00:23:35.176 -->
00:23:36.405It's linked directly to the property.
00:23:36.405 -->
00:23:41.473Um, so in some ways it is effectively.
00:23:41.473 -->
00:23:51.728I guess it's just somebody could have bought, bought the house out in cash, but it would still have that lease unless they bought it out from us.
00:23:52.328 -->
00:24:02.368Um, you're right, yeah, plus the the, the loan isn't with or the agreement isn't with, um, the mortgage lender is with yourself, so in that way it's not linked to the mortgage I could find so.
00:24:02.368 -->
00:24:13.114So what you're doing is then, is you're taking the cost of that spring, that over the 25 year period, so the monthly payments on that are not going to be super, super high because of the, the term that it's over.
00:24:13.114 -->
00:24:13.915And then?
00:24:13.915 -->
00:24:15.366So what about the maintenance?
00:24:15.366 -->
00:24:26.051Because I know that inverters may need to be shifted and changed and and and looked after yeah, so we, we take care of all of the uh operation and maintenance.
00:24:26.653 -->
00:24:30.138We also replace the battery and inverter once during the lifetime.
00:24:30.138 -->
00:24:39.986So, whilst a solar, solar pv typical lifetime is 25 years and batteries and inverters are between 10 to 15.
00:24:39.986 -->
00:24:48.757So with us, you know that those things are going to be replaced within 10 to 50 years, uh, and at no cost to you.
00:24:48.757 -->
00:25:13.130And because of the fact that we're generating on site, uh, in terms of on on the uh roof of that person's home, we're baking in savings that, yeah, that subscription price effectively comes with a 20 saving saving on day one versus if they had no solar or if they had a very small system.
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00:25:31.613What other things do you think are needed in order to overcome the housing issue that we've got within the UK at the moment and that combining with the effects that we're seeing from climate change at the needing to change the way that we build?
00:25:32.807 -->
00:25:42.574I think that the positive thing that we're seeing is that there are signals that people understand the scale of challenge that the industry is facing.
00:25:42.574 -->
00:25:53.045So, first being regulations and moving in the right direction, they are as maybe frustrating as it is for people like ourselves.
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00:26:06.632Sometimes we think of, you know, entrepreneurs often think of regulation as this thing that's holding people back, but in this case, we have to admit that part L of Future Hope Standard is kind of pulling the standards up, so that's an encouraging sign.
00:26:06.632 -->
00:26:19.005I think things like planning reform are increasingly coming up the priority and are showcasing that people are very taking this very seriously.
00:26:19.005 -->
00:26:25.105And the third thing, I think, is that there are more solutions now than there were a couple of years ago.
00:26:25.748 -->
00:27:12.755So, whether that's people like ourselves and others in the funded space for electricity, we, you know there are lots of funded solutions in eating and shared heat networks, and so I think in a way you know you asked about the fact of blood, sweat and tears I think to be an entrepreneur, you have to be incredibly ambitious, and I think that what we're seeing is that there are lots of forward-thinking developers out there who are using this as opportunity to differentiate themselves from others because of their ambitions to be either net zero builders or epca builders or deliver really high value and energy efficiency and high quality to homes.
00:27:12.855 -->
00:27:28.355So I think it's it's that everyone, everyone recognizing that the the scale of the challenge is really big and stepping up really to, to to those challenges and it's not, it's not a one-size-fits-all there are.
00:27:28.355 -->
00:27:34.053We shouldn't get too bogged down in, you know, analysis, paralysis.
00:27:34.053 -->
00:28:00.871There are lots of solutions out there and I think you develop that muscle memory as you, as you start implementing and start working through the nitty-gritty challenges of okay, what would it mean to trial this thing or pilot this thing, or um and so on saudi arabia has some extreme heat in the summer, especially compared to the summers that we experience here in the UK.
00:28:02.069 -->
00:28:19.548What lessons have you taken from the experiences out there working on a variety of buildings, or what lessons could we take from the way that they deal with heat over there and implement that into the way that they deal with heat over there and and implement that into into the way that we um build?
00:28:20.130 -->
00:28:37.454yeah, it's a great question, I think, and I like the way you phrased it, because, if you look at, I think the short answer to that is architecture has a has a massive role to play in shaping our cities and the spaces and how we experience them.
00:28:37.454 -->
00:28:59.292The challenge and why I said it was great you asked it this way is that sometimes, when we think about mega cities in Saudi Arabia or United Arab Emirates, we think of maybe not thinking about sustainability and not thinking about architecture.
00:28:59.292 -->
00:30:01.597But actually, if you look at the roots of architecture and urban design in the region and by that I mean the idea of courtyards and the idea of streets, streetscapes and streets that are sized to allow for that natural cooling and natural shading and I think that the the challenge that modern industrialized cities have is that often they can be combative of the climate or of how we should be designing things to work with nature, and so I think that I think that, like shading is a is a massively underrated uh tool that we should be using, both in the uk, um, and you see how it's used there, whether that's how do you encourage walking in in a fortified plus climate, right, but suddenly, if you've got the architecture where all of the streets are being shaded by each other.
00:30:01.597 -->
00:30:16.969You are creating and you're bringing down the overall temperature, whereas if you build a city like New York in UAE or in Saudi, then of course you're going to get all of the challenges that come with building a city like that in the desert.
00:30:17.710 -->
00:30:40.897Um, the final thing I'd say on on on that and just my experiences in in in neon specifically, is, whilst it's had lots of challenges, um, I think that you really do have to applaud the level of ambition, the conviction and the investment into innovation that they are putting there.
00:30:40.897 -->
00:31:07.028So, whilst I'm not necessarily going to comment on the progress of the project itself, it's, you know, sometimes the way I think about it is like an innovation, research and development for the built environment, and lots of people, lots of great ideas and investment and progress was was being pushed out there, which was, you know, for a young engineer, was exciting to see those kinds of things.
00:31:07.609 -->
00:31:13.310So I guess it's kind of a real life laboratory right where you're testing and failing and learning and progressing.
00:31:13.551 -->
00:31:27.977Yeah, exactly I mean I hadn't heard of it before I'd went out there that we were looking at piloting a concentrated solar plant, which is, yeah, kind of almost something you'd see in like sci-fi movies.
00:31:27.977 -->
00:31:30.086Uh, where you've got all of these?
00:31:30.086 -->
00:31:41.315Yeah, all of these kind of panels, um, concentrated towards the source and a stream coming through, um, and it was, it was.
00:31:41.976 -->
00:32:13.268I don't know where they've gotten to now, but it would have been the largest and perhaps is the largest um test for for that technology in the world the other thing that came to mind as well as I was considering the climate in in saudi, compared to the uk is it doesn't rain for a long period of time and then, when it does rain, the ground is so hard that the, that you get flooding, you get the runoff which which we make, which I think that we're going to experience more in the uk.
00:32:13.268 -->
00:32:16.894But I'm making a grand assumption here.
00:32:16.894 -->
00:32:26.178I've never been to saudi arabia, but I I would imagine that the, the there would be things in place, or it would, you would at least be used to it.
00:32:26.178 -->
00:32:49.387What, what have you learned over there, or what goes on over there, that you think that the uk needs to either consider, including or or, um, yeah, consider including when it, when it comes to the way that we design for a warmer, drier climate, especially in the summer?
00:32:51.049 -->
00:32:53.593it's, um, it's, it's.
00:32:53.593 -->
00:33:28.845It's a huge challenge and I've seen you know my perspective of how we design for climate and different frequency events that's the technical engineering term for it is that's been defined by my experiences across the uk as an engineer, also parts of my um childhood and heritage being from my parents being from savannah and me visiting and, uh, seeing the infrastructure there and also and also saudi and working on the design of large-scale infrastructure projects there.
00:33:28.845 -->
00:33:32.651So I think there's lots to learn.
00:33:32.651 -->
00:33:50.550Um, as a, as a kind of aside, part of the reason why I ended up in infrastructure and engineering, civil engineering particular, was going in my childhood to see my family into that and we would experience that.
00:33:50.550 -->
00:33:56.885We would experience that the rain, which, by the way, would be a respite from the heat.
00:33:56.885 -->
00:34:04.634So usually when there's that, there's rain, you've got a storm and it's like, oh, you know, for me at least, I'd be like, okay, great, you know, we can now go outside and everything.
00:34:04.634 -->
00:34:08.713But the problem was it would cause these real strange challenges on the infrastructure.
00:34:08.713 -->
00:34:27.684Uh, the roads would flood and it would be hard to get from place to place, and that's just because the infrastructure wasn't there, and that disparity was something that really sparked my, my curiosity and and, in many ways, what drives that desire to create equity where there's potential disparity.
00:34:29.867 -->
00:34:45.262Then, on the flip side of that, when it's come to designing systems, I think infrastructure generally is quite interesting when you look at development of countries and the stages that they go through.
00:34:45.262 -->
00:34:59.253So, again, coming back to Sudan, there's very limited fixed fiber, there's very limited broadband, it's largely mobile data driven internet, and so they've skipped an infrastructure step.
00:34:59.253 -->
00:35:06.652They've not put in that, that fixed fiber, and you'll see, you'll see developing countries do that.
00:35:06.652 -->
00:35:08.836Sometimes they, they will skip that step.
00:35:09.539 -->
00:35:13.012Um, in in saudi, what, what?
00:35:13.012 -->
00:35:23.092When we were looking at design infrastructure, actually there was quite a high bar in terms of what the design should be meeting in terms of extreme events.
00:35:23.092 -->
00:35:35.099Typically, in the UK, you design stormwater, which is after a storm, the flooding or stormwater runoff and how, how that protects people.
00:35:35.099 -->
00:35:40.914You typically design that for a one in a hundred year storm, so that happens once every hundred years.
00:35:40.914 -->
00:35:55.806Um, what we're seeing is those things are happening more and more frequently and so there's a real need for us to learn from where whether that's saudi and then and then actually like looking at one in a thousand year storms.
00:35:56.768 -->
00:36:08.905Uh is something that we need to make sure that we're doing to future our cities because I think that, yeah, I think I think you're right the the way that things are designed, not just in the uk.
00:36:08.905 -->
00:36:11.807I think this, this will apply across the world.
00:36:11.807 -->
00:36:27.222We'll need to shift and change, and I think that one of the benefits of that is to go to countries like Saudi and also Sudan and say you've been living with this extreme heat for many, many years.
00:36:27.222 -->
00:36:41.141For us in the UK, it's probably a relatively new thing that we've been hitting highs of 40 degrees, but highs of 40 degrees in in those two countries are it's not it's not unusual is it so?
00:36:41.181 -->
00:36:41.985how do you manage that?
00:36:41.985 -->
00:36:42.306What?
00:36:42.306 -->
00:36:43.831What lessons can we learn here?
00:36:43.831 -->
00:36:58.032And even looking at places like southern spain and southern france, the way that the architecture is there and the way that they manage the heat there is different, but they're then reaching I think it was recently in um, was it turkey?
00:36:58.152 -->
00:36:58.693No, it was in.
00:36:58.693 -->
00:37:00.657Yeah, it was in turkey and greece.
00:37:00.657 -->
00:37:06.974They were getting highs of 51 52 degrees, so that's quite recently.
00:37:06.974 -->
00:37:22.501So when you start to project forward and kind of look to 2035, 2045, I think it's quite easy to see how these what we class as normal temperatures now in this country are going to become a thing of the past.
00:37:22.501 -->
00:37:44.856And so we need to start kind of looking, looking forward and and I'm wondering here if this is kind of like the elephant in the room in the industry to say we know that the climate is going to shift, that this thing that we call climate change isn't a temporary thing, it's going to be a new way moving forward.
00:37:44.856 -->
00:38:02.009And where do we go to learn the lessons that that have already been learned in those countries that have already operated quite comfortably and quite well at those higher temperatures, but here in in the uk and around kind of northern europe not so much yeah, I think it's.
00:38:02.889 -->
00:38:22.735Look, if we, if we just rely on active cooling and by that I mean ac and and other other technologies as the primary way, if we think about it as a home by home level, either you can afford AC or you can't.
00:38:22.735 -->
00:38:24.070Maybe you're just on fans.
00:38:24.070 -->
00:38:30.125But if we increase the overall number that need that, then we're perpetuating that cycle, aren't we?
00:38:30.125 -->
00:38:39.994We're making it so that, because generally, ac as a technology is quite damaging to the climate, so it's we almost need to go back to first principles.
00:38:39.994 -->
00:38:40.936But that's harder, isn't it?
00:38:41.005 -->
00:38:51.829It's harder to say there are places in, you know, when you go on holiday, you go to these countries with the, the really narrow streets right, and that's that's really good for for keeping the temperature cool.
00:38:51.829 -->
00:39:03.815But there's so much baked into how we expect developments to look like in this country that make it difficult for us to you know, we really, I think we.
00:39:03.815 -->
00:39:15.168The main thing is we do need to move away from what is being done, as this is the best way to actually what are the unconventional ways?
00:39:15.168 -->
00:39:16.570What are the natural?
00:39:16.570 -->
00:39:29.097You know more natural ways to to cool and to create cooling where you're not putting the pressure on one individual to choose between, you know, diswatering, heat, a fan or ac.
00:39:29.097 -->
00:39:33.288So I think that's that's the sort of the step up and step back that we need to take.
00:39:33.447 -->
00:39:48.016Otherwise, we are building more developments that are potentially increasing this challenge which is interesting because when you look back historically in the uk, the streets were wide because of horse and cart.
00:39:48.016 -->
00:39:58.226We needed that width in order to get the size of the, the animals and the all the rest of it down as well as deal with all of the byproducts that come from the animal.
00:39:58.226 -->
00:40:09.211So it was a it's a completely different setup back then, which, which is then, like you're saying, kind of created a picture in people's minds to say this is what good looks like.
00:40:09.211 -->
00:40:13.992We need this space, we need this, we need it to look like that, while actually moving forward.
00:40:13.992 -->
00:40:16.632I don't think it's going to work as well.
00:40:16.632 -->
00:40:20.416So it'll be interesting to see how that plans out in the future.
00:40:20.784 -->
00:40:41.367Yeah, I mean it's that we need more imagination, we need more novel and innovation and thinking of not the like the like, replacement, right, I think, like the famous saying from from henry board is you know, if I would have asked the people, they would have said faster horses, right.
00:40:41.367 -->
00:41:07.318And so we went from that to automobiles, and I think where we've seen the most liverpool cities in the world are highly, highly dependent on mass transit, but what we've done, in a way, is we've replaced in terms of in most cities nowadays, the sustainable thing is replacing a car with another car, that's, you know, an eb, but we can't all you know.
00:41:07.318 -->
00:41:10.719If everyone could afford them, would that solve the congestion issues?
00:41:10.719 -->
00:41:12.907Would that solve the mobility in the movement?
00:41:12.907 -->
00:41:15.813Would that be the healthiest, most livable city?
00:41:15.813 -->
00:41:17.117Just create another problem.
00:41:17.117 -->
00:41:18.847Yeah, and I think that that's that's.
00:41:18.847 -->
00:41:20.652We're sometimes too short-sighted in.
00:41:20.992 -->
00:41:40.371We replace something that's good, but something that's also good, potentially better, but it doesn't necessarily mean it so solves the holistic problem great yeah, it reminds me of the I don't know if you've heard of the story before, but colonial, uh, britain when they were ruling india, um the.
00:41:40.371 -->
00:41:55.804They were upset the amount of cobras that were biting people, and so what they decided to do is say to the Indians what we're going to do is we're going to pay you for every dead cobra you bring to us, and that will eliminate the cobra problem.
00:41:55.804 -->
00:42:02.498And so the entrepreneurial side of India then said I know what we're going to do.
00:42:02.498 -->
00:42:09.414We're going to breed cobras because that's going to help us to earn some good money, because we can just supply more dead cobras.
00:42:09.414 -->
00:42:18.844And then the British then caught on to what was going on and said, right, okay, the scheme's off, we're no longer doing this, and so the cobras then don't become worth anything.
00:42:18.844 -->
00:42:19.969So then they get let loose.
00:42:19.969 -->
00:42:25.885So there's more cobras now than what there were originally, and so I loose.
00:42:25.885 -->
00:42:28.074So there's more cobras now than what there were originally.
00:42:28.094 -->
00:42:30.442And so I think that the same principle exists with the right everyone needs to get an ev.
00:42:30.442 -->
00:42:31.947Don't think that's going to solve the problem.
00:42:31.947 -->
00:42:36.161It would, because we're creating a bigger problem later on.
00:42:36.161 -->
00:42:43.315And that's without going down looking at how lithium is mined and and all the rest of it, but they're.
00:42:43.315 -->
00:43:05.021They're like you're saying there needs to be um a change, not just in the way that we do things, but before I think there needs to be a change with us individually say, right, I need to change my thinking and change my team's thinking with those that are closest to me, and then the thinking is that of other people exactly, yeah, 100 that's.
00:43:05.041 -->
00:43:21.967That's the only way we can do it really just for the people that are listening, that are coming out of university or maybe out of school and they want to maybe start their own enterprise, um, but they want to have something or do something that makes a difference.
00:43:21.967 -->
00:43:31.297What three tips or principles would you give that you have found beneficial, that they can adopt and apply to to enable their growth forward?
00:43:32.126 -->
00:43:37.985in terms of like on their journey to becoming entrepreneurs or yeah, be an entrepreneur or making a difference in the world.
00:43:38.347 -->
00:43:40.148What, what, what comes to mind for you?
00:43:41.250 -->
00:43:42.271yeah, I think it's, it's.
00:43:42.271 -->
00:43:56.626It's so important, I think, that you tie what you know, the vehicle of your time and your work, to, to something that is mission aligned and mission driven.
00:43:56.626 -->
00:44:08.329So I think that where you feel what you're doing ties into that broader mission that you have and that broader purpose, then that makes that makes, see, just such a massive difference.
00:44:08.329 -->
00:44:14.469I think, um, I think it's really important to the the journey itself.
00:44:14.469 -->
00:44:24.030You'll need lots of people that support you, um, but I think you, you have to have to have really high self-awareness.
00:44:24.929 -->
00:44:52.282There's a lot of romanticizing of the journey of an entrepreneur and I think that that does it a disservice, because going back to blood, sweat and tears, that's what it requires and requires a lot of commitment, and the reality is that it requires a lot of conviction as well.
00:44:52.523 -->
00:45:01.112You have to really, really believe in what it is that you're doing and like it's.
00:45:01.112 -->
00:45:27.132You really have to find that thing that meets you in a place where not only are you the right person to solve this, you've got some of the right experiences, you're really excited by it, um, and and you know it's it's kind of aligned with your mission, it's it's, and there has to be some element of high aptitude in that thing that you're doing, so almost almost.
00:45:27.132 -->
00:45:30.599Don't settle for the thing that you don't have full conviction in.
00:45:30.599 -->
00:45:40.789Right, I think, try and fail and learn, but if you really think you're an entrepreneur, then your first idea probably won't be what you end up building.
00:45:40.789 -->
00:45:46.871Your second idea still might not be, but you know it's gonna take a long time till you land on that thing that you're like this.
00:45:46.871 -->
00:45:48.155Is it like I'm?
00:45:48.275 -->
00:45:59.581I'm in this, uh, and I'll do whatever it takes to to build this well, it's been really great having you on the podcast, so appreciate your wisdom perspective and I wish you well for the future.
00:46:00.061 -->
00:46:00.643Thank you so much.
00:46:00.643 -->
00:46:04.231Yeah, it's been a real pleasure to be on thanks for for watching to the end.
00:46:04.652 -->
00:46:12.614I think that you'll like this, but before you do that, just make sure that you've commented and liked below and also that you've subscribed.
