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Okay, this week we're heading back into the Storyteller Society vault here.
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we have Mary Cole.
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And Mary is a former literary agent who provides consulting and developmental editing services to writers of all categories and genres.
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She founded Good Story Company in 2019 to create valuable content for writers.
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I like the Good Story podcast, YouTube channel, and writing craft workshop classes and resources.
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Mary has presented at hundreds of regional, national, and international writing conferences and guest lectured at Harvard, the Ringling College of Art and Design, the Highlights Foundation, and the Loft.
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She also develops unique and commercial intellectual property for middle grade, young adult, and adult readers.
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With bittersweet books, Mary has a MFA in creative writing, has worked at Chronicle Books, the Andrea Brown Literary Agency, and Movable Type Management.
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Her writing reference books include Writing Irresistible Kidlet, Writing, or sorry, Writing Irresistible Kidlet, Irresistible Query Letters, Writing irresistible picture books and writing interiority, crafting irresistible characters.
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And today she is here to talk to us about getting feedback and revising with it in mind.
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And obviously, I mean, I just read her bio.
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If there's a person on the planet who can talk to us about getting feedback and revising with it in mind.
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Mary is that person.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Hopefully I can give you some food for thought.
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So, we are positioned now at the beginning of a revision.
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When you feel that you are done with a project, even though most manuscripts will not have a concrete end point, so the idea of done can be a moving target, you will want to approach your revision.
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I strongly discourage you from starting a revision when you just can't, like, bear to look at it anymore.
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You know, that's not a really good reason to kind of dive in and put your craft gloves on.
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I would read it through a minimum of once first without really messing around, without sort of sharpening your knives just yet.
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After taking two weeks away from it minimum between the end of the drafting phase and starting your revision to manufacture a sense of new eyes for yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised by what you what you've written or you might realize that there's an uphill battle coming for you.
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But one big decision to make right away.
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Will you solicit feedback earlier in the process or later?
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So this is when we talk about workshop.
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We maybe even talk about bringing a freelance editor on board.
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And I will give you a disclaimer in just a moment, but you can do that initially to sort of get some steering, get some guidance, get some correction or feedback as you are sort of wading into your own revision.
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You can also bring on a third party set of eyes when you are finishing your revision.
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You feel ready to submit, but you want to make sure that all the I's are dotted, T's are crossed.
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So, those are usually the times that writers approach me in my editorial practice, or they seek out a class, a workshop, a community like this one.
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So, both are very valid.
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You will probably get different feedback and use it differently if you get feedback earlier versus later.
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So that is something else that we will talk about.
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We often can't see our own work objectively, and even seasoned writers use outside advice.
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So, this can be accomplished for free, but it all depends on how qualified your reader is.
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So, one thing that I will say here that might be a little unexpected is that you don't have to take feedback just because it exists and it was given to you.
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You can actually choose which feedback to use and which feedback may not be as relevant to you.
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It does sometimes make sense to pay for expert advice, especially if you're writing in a specialized category where that editor also has expertise.
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Sometimes you'll want more of a casual reaction that Another writer or somebody who reads a lot in your category can give but not all feedback is created equal You want that person to at least be very conversant in your genre?
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So some feedback you take with a grain of salt.
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It really does depend on who is giving it.
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So if the reader is qualified, knows your target audience and genre, their notes are likely to give you concrete ideas for revision.
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It's your responsibility to accept or reject feedback and then to address the problems Opportunities for growth issues, observations, whatever in your own way, because you know the story best.
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So not all feedback is created equal, as I said, and if you know you're listening with an open mind instead of being defensive or reactive, you can take the wisdom and leave the rest.
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Of course, if everybody that ever gave you feedback is an idiot and you've burned through all of the freelance editors on Etsy and just nobody gets your genius, you might be operating with some blinders.
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you might be you know, in for a bit of a rude awakening.
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You may not be able to see your own writing with clear eyes just yet.
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Some writers who are new to getting feedback, they definitely need to go through several layers of peeling back biases and preconceived notions.
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But if you can check in with yourself and you can say, Hey, you know, I'm not.
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I'm not being reactive, then you can discard certain pieces of feedback that don't resonate with you.
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Sometimes you will also hear indirect feedback that something about the section or part of the story or element of the story isn't working, but you won't get prescriptive guidance, or you will disagree with their version of The fix.
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They're like, Oh my gosh, you need to smash these two characters together.
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Well, that piece of feedback can lie there on the page and you can take it literally and do just that follow through.
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But if something about that note doesn't really resonate with you, try to zoom out and think, okay, what is.
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What is it maybe about these characters that is striking this person as redundant, perhaps?
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Is it that they both sort of have the same worldview when it comes to the theme, and they're sort of displaying one facet of the theme that I'm working with?
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Do they only play one role or very similar roles for in their relationship with the protagonist?
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Maybe instead of smashing them together, you can tweak one of the characters.
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Or get rid of them altogether, right?
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So there are many, many ways to address a piece of feedback.
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Sometimes the literal feedback and any suggested fix is just not going to be what you end up doing.
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So that's kind of a critical eye and a filter that you need to bring when you get feedback.
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So sometimes feedback will also be contradictory.
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Which is contradictory, which is very, very frustrating.
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So, the clearer your sense of your project and your goals and kind of your mission statement, which we'll talk about before you move forward with revision, the more you'll be able to parse through even contradictory feedback and make a revision plan for yourself.
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Obviously, this all applies if you're getting feedback before you do your big revisions, right?
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So, again, take some time away.
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Zoom out and see if the note is hinting at bigger issues that you can extrapolate from any feedback you receive.
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If you agree with an identified issue, there are multiple ways to address most craft problems, right?
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You don't have to take the offered solution, so if the note has to do with slow pacing, there are a number of different levers that you can pull.
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Shorter sentences and snappier syntax.
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At the sentence level, weeding out descriptions, setting imagery, play by play choreography of the action at the paragraph level, maybe shortening individual scenes or chopping up your chapters or shifting point of views more frequently.
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All of these options and probably more that I hadn't even thought of are available to you.
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If somebody is like, the pacing is dragging a little bit in this section, right?
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And maybe addressing the pacing in one of these ways lifts that perception of the overall pacing.
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You don't have to do more, or maybe you might take more than one of these approaches to get at that issue of the pacing.
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So they're yours to use.
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You are in the driver's seat.
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You can choose how you want to address the note, if you do.
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To me, there is a difference between revision and editing.
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The literal definition of revision is to see again, and it is the process of making ideally big changes to your manuscript to help it reach its full potential and your full intention for it.
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Editing is actually the process of bringing about that revision.
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It usually involves at least several passes through the manuscript, looking for and revising different things like plot character, writing style, theme, cohesion, all of these things that we will talk, touch upon in this presentation.
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So when, when you've cleared the hurdle and gotten a literary agent, gotten a book deal, it really does take a village to raise a book.
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Your work has a lot of eyes on it.
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from professionals, from copy editors, and that is a very different discipline from developmental editing, which is more kind of structural big picture in nature.
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I've read some copy edited manuscripts where I learned so much for the cop from the copy editors because they look at copy the way, the way that I don't as kind of a more big picture structural person, but it's very desirable to edit yourself before you have the benefit of that vision.
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Until your project becomes submission ready and potentially more attractive to getting those goals.
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you want to be showing up with the strongest possible version and third party feedback, your ability to revise.
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Not just moving commas around, but actually truly reimagine elements of your story.
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If you figure out that they're not working, those are going to help differentiate you with readers.
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If you're going direct to readers or gatekeepers.
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So think about what your story is about at the biggest kind of top line level.
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Think about writing a mission statement for your project, a log line, a pitch.
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Those words tend to be intimidating.
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A sentence or two that captures what your story is.
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Is what it's about.
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Maybe a hint at plot character and what you want readers to walk away feeling the core emotional experience.
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So mission statements have a thematic component and you should know your theme even if you don't explain or state it anywhere.
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outlines are very helpful before a project is written to steer you in the right direction, keep you focused.
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You can also create a reverse outline after a project is written to aid in the revision process.
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So that looks like maybe a 20 page or so document broken up into chapters that tracks plot development, character development over the course of your story.
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Outlining is especially helpful when you're juggling multiple points of views and multiple points of view and timelines, maybe different chronologies, maybe you're jumping back and forth between two threads as we often do in thriller, mystery Outlining can really help you keep track of exactly what is going on in each thread.
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Can also ensure your plotting character are woven together with cause and effect logic, which is really, really important to me when it comes to revision, at least, especially if you're struggling with plotting or your protagonist character arc feels flat, or you've been revising forever.
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If you still don't have a project that you're truly happy with, or if you've never tried it before, outlining will not bite you.
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And are we talking about the sentence level writing yet?
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No.
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We do broad strokes first in effective.
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Revision, because if you make changes on the story level, you will probably have to change the supporting text itself.
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Fiddling around with the writing at this point is working harder, not smarter.
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Even if you, you know, are really good at moving commas around.
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Remember, that revision is that big thing.
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picture zoomed out view of your story first.
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If you are working from an outline, you don't have to think so hard about each choice that you make.
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The thinking, the ideation, the development of the story is the hard part.
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And once that's over, the writing part does tend to flow a little bit more naturally if you're working or revising from an outline.
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So it's a lot easier to also experiment with your proposed revisions.
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On an outline, maybe play out what you're planning for your revision in outline format suit first and see how it reads, then just carrying out a revision on 350 pages of novel manuscript, then going back and seeing how it reads.
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And maybe you've made a mistake there.
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If you kind of use the outline as your sandbox for a revision as well, it can be a really, really powerful tool.
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Don't hesitate to share that outline with.
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And so if you're doing this as a part of your community, your critique group, as you're doing the work, instead of always submitting pages, especially as people become more familiar with your story, you can run this by them and say, you know, I'm thinking of combining these two points of view or rearranging the time or the chronology of the, this subplot, what do you think, as they become familiar with your story, people will be able to sound off on, you know, outline stuff and, and kind of this, this dream work and ideation if you bring it to them.
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So take notes, be sure to codify your revision plan.
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I have a space for that in the checklist I'll send around.
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You can depart from your revision plan and you probably will as you get rolling and really start thinking and things start gelling in your head.
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But it's a lot easier to keep it all in mind, right?
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Keep all those plates spinning.
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If you do have a plan, a reverse outline, an outline, whatever, whatever format you really like to work with.
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If you have sort of figured out what your revision is going to look like, you will be able to enact it more successfully.
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So maybe put your mission statement that you came up with on a post it, a note card, even if you think you know what your book is about.
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It's really helpful to write one anyway and verbalize it.
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That helps with developing the query letter later in the process.
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If you plan on going on submission, create an outline, whether written or done visually with cards, codify that revision plan, then check each story element for cohesion.
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That means going through your outline or your visual board.
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Chapter by chapter, card by card, and asking yourself one question over and over.
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Does this plot point, character development point, scene, et cetera, fit my mission statement?
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Does each chapter, scene, conversation, description earn its keep?
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And here's where we start to be ruthless because we want to do revision, not just comma relocation, right?
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So if the manuscript doesn't deliver on the mission statement, either change the mission statement premise or change the execution.
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So, throughout our combined characters, move plot points around, slash the whole middle, and start over.
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If you know a section is problematic, even if you don't know why, tackle it now instead of waiting for later.
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Tackle it while you're still moving the big pieces around and doing that kind of revolutionary revision part of the work that's seeing the story with new eyes.
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If a chapter, character, or event doesn't fit the mission statement or theme, you have the following choices.
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Keep it, if you have a reason other than just sheer fondness for that thing.
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Put it aside, maybe create a separate doc if you simply can't bear deleting it into thin air.
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Or put it elsewhere.
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Maybe there's a more appropriate location for the element that you're sort of torn about.
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You will be compelled to keep problematic elements, but someone will likely call you out for that sooner or later, and your writing intuition, which is very powerful, will say, I told you so.
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Every writer, no matter where they are in their journey, has strong instincts.
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Even if you don't believe this about yourself yet.
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Sometimes you can revise more than one element per pass.
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Other times you might want to concentrate on one of these broad categories.
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For example, plot, right?
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Plot can take multiple revision passes to really nail everything down, especially if you're working with multiple points of view, multiple time frames, whatever.
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Ideally, your watchword for linking everything together is A clear sense of logic.
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Your character's choices should have, Logic and emotional truth behind them, ideally.
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Even if the character makes a mistake or, Demonstrates a flaw or a misbelief.
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They don't always have to be rational, But readers should know their RATIONALE.
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And I owe this turn of phrase to my best friend Scott.
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So he just, like, when he said that, it just, love it.
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I am so happy to pass it on to you fine people.
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So, readers should usually be able to interpret how their actions affect their short and long term objectives and needs.
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So, if the character is thinking critically and trying to logic out what they're doing and why, readers are following along.
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When external conflict happens, characters should consider a plot point's ramifications, set new expectations, identify stakes for whatever just happened or for what might happen.
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Interiority, which I don't know if we mentioned, I wrote a big ass book about.
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It nearly killed me.
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Is the access to your character's inner life and can convey a lot of logic for your point of view protagonists.
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or protagonist.
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Readers should be clear on the flow of the plot, which should only be able to progress in one cause and effect order.
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If the events of your plot can go in a dice cup, be shaken around and still work in a different order, your cause and effect logic is probably not as strong.
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And the world needs to have consistent rules and boundaries, which suggest consequences, ramifications.
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to the readers.
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If a character does X, readers should know enough about your world to expect Y.
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For example, you know, spitting in the face of a royal guard or whatever.
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We should know enough about the world to know just how deeply screwed your main character is if they make that choice.
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And then a couple other considerations were kind of in the homestretch here, watch your balance of action and information, especially at the beginning of your story.
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I have first pages on the brain these days, allow characters some downtime to rep to reset, integrate ramifications and strategize.
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So don't hit readers over and over and over with either too much action without having this reset time or too much information.
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Without action.
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So you can also speed up info dumps was seen dialogue plot.
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If you're working with multiple timelines or perspectives or whatever, consider making each thread into its own mini novel.
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So point of view a I'm going to take all their chapters.
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I'm going to Cut and paste them together into its own novel.
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And only once I've revised it for cohesiveness and cause and effect logic, do I chop them back up again and thread them into the larger whole.
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So you can also kind of make notes for yourself of any information or plot that's revealed between chapters to help you stay on top of where we are in the larger story.
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Then weave the threads back together, taking the opportunity to play with stakes.
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And cliffhangers, especially if you're working with multiple perspectives or timelines, like we leave thread A on a really tense moment, hopping over to thread B, leave that on a tense moment, then rejoin thread A to close the loop.
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There are just so many cool things you can do if you make some of these more advanced storytelling choices with multiple points of view and stuff.
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So when you play with suspense, you can track which information you're revealing when, how it affects both the reader's understanding of the story and of And each character's understanding of the story they're in as well.
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Especially in mystery, thriller, suspense, how you deploy information, who knows what, what the reader knows.
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All of these considerations need to be top of mind.
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Key pieces of data often have their own arcs because it matters who learns what and when, and whether characters are in the dark while readers are amassing clues, which is dramatic irony.
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Cause and effect logic is key here.
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If you are withholding information, make sure it will blow the story and the character's experience wide open.
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Otherwise why withhold it at all?
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These choices should be intentional.
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Conversely, I want to caution you against starving characters and plots of information because you're saving up for a big twist or reveal.
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If they have nothing to work with for the duration of the plot until the 90 percent mark, and suddenly it's like, Oh my God, My husband is my sister or whatever, you know, something, something crazy.
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The, the 80 percent leading up to that is going to be a flat line.
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So my sort of theory about that is that mysteries work best when we have.
00:22:12.193 --> 00:22:18.443
80 percent but we're missing a key 20 percent that changes everything, not the other way around.
00:22:18.703 --> 00:22:27.663
You don't build a novel by giving away only 20 percent of the information and expect the character to be able to be proactive or to make any forward progress.
00:22:27.834 --> 00:22:39.984
So yeah, too little information keeps the character passive and keeps It's locked into kind of a plateau until you feel like deploying your mind bending twist.
00:22:39.994 --> 00:22:51.894
But I would say a lot of readers probably won't last until that 80 percent mark to have their minds blown if there's not enough for characters and for the plot to do in the intervening 80%.
00:22:52.334 --> 00:22:54.114
And then the boring edit.
00:22:54.314 --> 00:23:00.153
So once you've done as much revision as you can handle, address the checklist, put the transcript away for at least two weeks.
00:23:00.449 --> 00:23:01.389
All that good stuff.
00:23:01.629 --> 00:23:10.419
You can reinvigorate your revision and the will to go on living in these late stages with the magical power of tricking yourself and delusion.
00:23:10.528 --> 00:23:12.629
Try to see your project objectively.
00:23:12.659 --> 00:23:14.389
Have you enacted your revision pass?
00:23:14.399 --> 00:23:18.249
How has various pieces of third party feedback informed your work?
00:23:18.558 --> 00:23:25.099
Now print out the manuscript if you've been working digitally or go to the screen if you've been revising on paper and do a boring edit.
00:23:26.144 --> 00:23:30.514
All you're allowed to do is mark in the margins where you find your own attention drifting.
00:23:30.524 --> 00:23:36.964
So you have to be paying attention not only to the story, but you have to be monitoring yourself and being self aware.
00:23:36.964 --> 00:23:40.594
It's kind of like mindfulness only hopefully a little bit less annoying.
00:23:40.804 --> 00:23:44.994
No, I'm from California and am a failed mindfulness person.
00:23:44.994 --> 00:23:47.693
So I have maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder.
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If you can't, so mark in the margins where you notice that you're thinking about your grocery list, not the project at hand or the scene at hand or the exchange or whatever, because if you can't sustain interest in your own baby, how do you expect a stranger to become and stay intrigued?
00:24:06.574 --> 00:24:11.614
So figure out the issue with the passages or scenes that you've marked and make them more engaging.
00:24:11.769 --> 00:24:21.259
You may want to get another third party read at this point, just to make sure everything is kind of flowing and buttoned up and revised to the best of your ability.
00:24:21.259 --> 00:24:25.308
But the boring edit is a really fun exercise, despite its name.
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:33.969
Just to make sure that you are engaging people because that is the currency of storytelling is reader engagement is emotional investment.
00:24:34.489 --> 00:24:37.068
So once you've done your very best revision possible.
00:24:37.399 --> 00:24:43.239
Put the project away, maybe gotten another round of feedback, you need to decide whether it's worth another revision or if you're done.
00:24:43.828 --> 00:24:51.119
Of course, manuscript is never done until copy edits are turned in because you'll revise with the literary agent and acquisitions editor too.
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Now it's time to either submit or self publish, though I suggest hiring at least a proofreader, if not an outright copy editor, before you hand the draft directly over to readers in the self publishing scenario.
00:25:03.669 --> 00:25:09.609
typos and stuff in the comments sorry, in the reviews that your project is getting.
00:25:10.494 --> 00:25:18.173
You might land representation or a book deal, you might sell like gangbusters if you self publish, or you might do neither of those things.
00:25:18.183 --> 00:25:26.984
So, once you have a big piece of feedback, success or failure in the larger marketplace, you must choose whether to revise again or start something new.
00:25:27.324 --> 00:25:30.864
Some manuscripts are teachers, and that's totally fine.
00:25:30.884 --> 00:25:32.524
That is very, very valid.
00:25:32.999 --> 00:25:35.169
some manuscripts are not going to go the distance.
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But they each have something to teach us.
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They are each important in their own way.
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If you pause or stop on a specific project, you can always go back.
00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:48.399
The more you write and revise, the more ideas you will have.
00:25:48.409 --> 00:25:50.849
It is sort of a self feeding mechanism.
00:25:51.229 --> 00:25:53.479
Inspiration attracts more inspiration.
00:25:53.489 --> 00:25:55.089
I fully, firmly believe that.
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I don't believe in writer's block at all.
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Even when I'm feeling frustrated in my own process.
00:26:00.129 --> 00:26:04.009
You have zero control over the market, gatekeepers, trends, whatever.
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You can, however, control your own efforts to learn, grow, draft, revise, practice, read, attend conferences, use educational resources, etc.
00:26:13.058 --> 00:26:18.099
The product you're working on is yourself, not any one manuscript.
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It's you, the writer, because creative writing is all about the process.
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Not the product.
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Even though the product would be nice.
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:28.578
Yeah, that was that was amazing.
00:26:28.629 --> 00:26:30.519
Mary, that was so much.
00:26:30.788 --> 00:26:33.109
There's so much information like packed with info, which is awesome.
00:26:33.109 --> 00:26:37.538
I feel like I'll be re listening to this as I'm sure people will be as well.
00:26:37.709 --> 00:26:45.709
the getting used to getting feedback thing is is something that I know some writers struggle with and it is so true like you just have to get used to getting feedback.
00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:54.419
You have to figure out what your process is for like, handling it, getting through it, implementing it and then becoming a better writer for it.
00:26:54.469 --> 00:27:01.814
And I think that that initial gut reaction feeling of like, how didn't you like it like that it's valid like have it and then you know.
00:27:02.254 --> 00:27:05.524
don't live in that feeling, you know, move on from there.
00:27:05.784 --> 00:27:08.724
And I think like the cause and effect piece you mentioned was huge.
00:27:08.754 --> 00:27:15.703
The big revisions to small, I've, I've, especially early on in my writing, I, I got caught like fixing sentences and commas and periods.
00:27:15.703 --> 00:27:18.474
And then I like went back like two weeks later and cut that entire chapter.
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I was like, I spent.
00:27:20.369 --> 00:27:21.259
It's a moot point.
00:27:22.318 --> 00:27:25.548
the rule always is whatever it takes to get the book done.
00:27:25.879 --> 00:27:26.778
That's the rule.
00:27:26.788 --> 00:27:31.469
Like it does not matter what your process is, what you do, just get the book done.
00:27:31.699 --> 00:27:32.849
And so anything that helps.
00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:33.509
So this is great.
00:27:33.864 --> 00:27:35.474
Mary, I can't thank you enough.
00:27:35.534 --> 00:27:36.824
This, this was awesome.
00:27:36.884 --> 00:27:40.903
So if, if anybody has any other questions for Mary, you know, reach out.
00:27:41.239 --> 00:27:43.019
Follow her on, on all the socials.
00:27:43.328 --> 00:27:44.929
Thank you guys so much for having me.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.830
Okay, this week we're heading back into the Storyteller Society vault here.
00:00:03.959 --> 00:00:05.629
we have Mary Cole.
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And Mary is a former literary agent who provides consulting and developmental editing services to writers of all categories and genres.
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She founded Good Story Company in 2019 to create valuable content for writers.
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I like the Good Story podcast, YouTube channel, and writing craft workshop classes and resources.
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Mary has presented at hundreds of regional, national, and international writing conferences and guest lectured at Harvard, the Ringling College of Art and Design, the Highlights Foundation, and the Loft.
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She also develops unique and commercial intellectual property for middle grade, young adult, and adult readers.
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With bittersweet books, Mary has a MFA in creative writing, has worked at Chronicle Books, the Andrea Brown Literary Agency, and Movable Type Management.
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Her writing reference books include Writing Irresistible Kidlet, Writing, or sorry, Writing Irresistible Kidlet, Irresistible Query Letters, Writing irresistible picture books and writing interiority, crafting irresistible characters.
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And today she is here to talk to us about getting feedback and revising with it in mind.
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And obviously, I mean, I just read her bio.
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If there's a person on the planet who can talk to us about getting feedback and revising with it in mind.
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Mary is that person.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Hopefully I can give you some food for thought.
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So, we are positioned now at the beginning of a revision.
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When you feel that you are done with a project, even though most manuscripts will not have a concrete end point, so the idea of done can be a moving target, you will want to approach your revision.
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I strongly discourage you from starting a revision when you just can't, like, bear to look at it anymore.
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You know, that's not a really good reason to kind of dive in and put your craft gloves on.
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I would read it through a minimum of once first without really messing around, without sort of sharpening your knives just yet.
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After taking two weeks away from it minimum between the end of the drafting phase and starting your revision to manufacture a sense of new eyes for yourself, you may be pleasantly surprised by what you what you've written or you might realize that there's an uphill battle coming for you.
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But one big decision to make right away.
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Will you solicit feedback earlier in the process or later?
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So this is when we talk about workshop.
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We maybe even talk about bringing a freelance editor on board.
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And I will give you a disclaimer in just a moment, but you can do that initially to sort of get some steering, get some guidance, get some correction or feedback as you are sort of wading into your own revision.
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You can also bring on a third party set of eyes when you are finishing your revision.
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You feel ready to submit, but you want to make sure that all the I's are dotted, T's are crossed.
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So, those are usually the times that writers approach me in my editorial practice, or they seek out a class, a workshop, a community like this one.
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So, both are very valid.
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You will probably get different feedback and use it differently if you get feedback earlier versus later.
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So that is something else that we will talk about.
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We often can't see our own work objectively, and even seasoned writers use outside advice.
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So, this can be accomplished for free, but it all depends on how qualified your reader is.
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So, one thing that I will say here that might be a little unexpected is that you don't have to take feedback just because it exists and it was given to you.
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You can actually choose which feedback to use and which feedback may not be as relevant to you.
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It does sometimes make sense to pay for expert advice, especially if you're writing in a specialized category where that editor also has expertise.
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Sometimes you'll want more of a casual reaction that Another writer or somebody who reads a lot in your category can give but not all feedback is created equal You want that person to at least be very conversant in your genre?
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So some feedback you take with a grain of salt.
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It really does depend on who is giving it.
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So if the reader is qualified, knows your target audience and genre, their notes are likely to give you concrete ideas for revision.
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It's your responsibility to accept or reject feedback and then to address the problems Opportunities for growth issues, observations, whatever in your own way, because you know the story best.
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So not all feedback is created equal, as I said, and if you know you're listening with an open mind instead of being defensive or reactive, you can take the wisdom and leave the rest.
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Of course, if everybody that ever gave you feedback is an idiot and you've burned through all of the freelance editors on Etsy and just nobody gets your genius, you might be operating with some blinders.
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you might be you know, in for a bit of a rude awakening.
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You may not be able to see your own writing with clear eyes just yet.
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Some writers who are new to getting feedback, they definitely need to go through several layers of peeling back biases and preconceived notions.
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But if you can check in with yourself and you can say, Hey, you know, I'm not.
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I'm not being reactive, then you can discard certain pieces of feedback that don't resonate with you.
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Sometimes you will also hear indirect feedback that something about the section or part of the story or element of the story isn't working, but you won't get prescriptive guidance, or you will disagree with their version of The fix.
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They're like, Oh my gosh, you need to smash these two characters together.
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Well, that piece of feedback can lie there on the page and you can take it literally and do just that follow through.
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But if something about that note doesn't really resonate with you, try to zoom out and think, okay, what is.
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What is it maybe about these characters that is striking this person as redundant, perhaps?
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Is it that they both sort of have the same worldview when it comes to the theme, and they're sort of displaying one facet of the theme that I'm working with?
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Do they only play one role or very similar roles for in their relationship with the protagonist?
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Maybe instead of smashing them together, you can tweak one of the characters.
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Or get rid of them altogether, right?
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So there are many, many ways to address a piece of feedback.
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Sometimes the literal feedback and any suggested fix is just not going to be what you end up doing.
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So that's kind of a critical eye and a filter that you need to bring when you get feedback.
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So sometimes feedback will also be contradictory.
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Which is contradictory, which is very, very frustrating.
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So, the clearer your sense of your project and your goals and kind of your mission statement, which we'll talk about before you move forward with revision, the more you'll be able to parse through even contradictory feedback and make a revision plan for yourself.
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Obviously, this all applies if you're getting feedback before you do your big revisions, right?
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So, again, take some time away.
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Zoom out and see if the note is hinting at bigger issues that you can extrapolate from any feedback you receive.
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If you agree with an identified issue, there are multiple ways to address most craft problems, right?
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You don't have to take the offered solution, so if the note has to do with slow pacing, there are a number of different levers that you can pull.
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Shorter sentences and snappier syntax.
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At the sentence level, weeding out descriptions, setting imagery, play by play choreography of the action at the paragraph level, maybe shortening individual scenes or chopping up your chapters or shifting point of views more frequently.
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All of these options and probably more that I hadn't even thought of are available to you.
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If somebody is like, the pacing is dragging a little bit in this section, right?
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And maybe addressing the pacing in one of these ways lifts that perception of the overall pacing.
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You don't have to do more, or maybe you might take more than one of these approaches to get at that issue of the pacing.
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So they're yours to use.
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You are in the driver's seat.
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You can choose how you want to address the note, if you do.
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To me, there is a difference between revision and editing.
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The literal definition of revision is to see again, and it is the process of making ideally big changes to your manuscript to help it reach its full potential and your full intention for it.
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Editing is actually the process of bringing about that revision.
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It usually involves at least several passes through the manuscript, looking for and revising different things like plot character, writing style, theme, cohesion, all of these things that we will talk, touch upon in this presentation.
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So when, when you've cleared the hurdle and gotten a literary agent, gotten a book deal, it really does take a village to raise a book.
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Your work has a lot of eyes on it.
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from professionals, from copy editors, and that is a very different discipline from developmental editing, which is more kind of structural big picture in nature.
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I've read some copy edited manuscripts where I learned so much for the cop from the copy editors because they look at copy the way, the way that I don't as kind of a more big picture structural person, but it's very desirable to edit yourself before you have the benefit of that vision.
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Until your project becomes submission ready and potentially more attractive to getting those goals.
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you want to be showing up with the strongest possible version and third party feedback, your ability to revise.
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Not just moving commas around, but actually truly reimagine elements of your story.
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If you figure out that they're not working, those are going to help differentiate you with readers.
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If you're going direct to readers or gatekeepers.
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So think about what your story is about at the biggest kind of top line level.
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Think about writing a mission statement for your project, a log line, a pitch.
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Those words tend to be intimidating.
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A sentence or two that captures what your story is.
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Is what it's about.
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Maybe a hint at plot character and what you want readers to walk away feeling the core emotional experience.
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So mission statements have a thematic component and you should know your theme even if you don't explain or state it anywhere.
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outlines are very helpful before a project is written to steer you in the right direction, keep you focused.
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You can also create a reverse outline after a project is written to aid in the revision process.
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So that looks like maybe a 20 page or so document broken up into chapters that tracks plot development, character development over the course of your story.
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Outlining is especially helpful when you're juggling multiple points of views and multiple points of view and timelines, maybe different chronologies, maybe you're jumping back and forth between two threads as we often do in thriller, mystery Outlining can really help you keep track of exactly what is going on in each thread.
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Can also ensure your plotting character are woven together with cause and effect logic, which is really, really important to me when it comes to revision, at least, especially if you're struggling with plotting or your protagonist character arc feels flat, or you've been revising forever.
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If you still don't have a project that you're truly happy with, or if you've never tried it before, outlining will not bite you.
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And are we talking about the sentence level writing yet?
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No.
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We do broad strokes first in effective.
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Revision, because if you make changes on the story level, you will probably have to change the supporting text itself.
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Fiddling around with the writing at this point is working harder, not smarter.
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Even if you, you know, are really good at moving commas around.
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Remember, that revision is that big thing.
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picture zoomed out view of your story first.
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If you are working from an outline, you don't have to think so hard about each choice that you make.
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The thinking, the ideation, the development of the story is the hard part.
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And once that's over, the writing part does tend to flow a little bit more naturally if you're working or revising from an outline.
00:12:27.918 --> 00:12:33.249
So it's a lot easier to also experiment with your proposed revisions.
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On an outline, maybe play out what you're planning for your revision in outline format suit first and see how it reads, then just carrying out a revision on 350 pages of novel manuscript, then going back and seeing how it reads.
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And maybe you've made a mistake there.
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If you kind of use the outline as your sandbox for a revision as well, it can be a really, really powerful tool.
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Don't hesitate to share that outline with.
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And so if you're doing this as a part of your community, your critique group, as you're doing the work, instead of always submitting pages, especially as people become more familiar with your story, you can run this by them and say, you know, I'm thinking of combining these two points of view or rearranging the time or the chronology of the, this subplot, what do you think, as they become familiar with your story, people will be able to sound off on, you know, outline stuff and, and kind of this, this dream work and ideation if you bring it to them.
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So take notes, be sure to codify your revision plan.
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I have a space for that in the checklist I'll send around.
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You can depart from your revision plan and you probably will as you get rolling and really start thinking and things start gelling in your head.
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But it's a lot easier to keep it all in mind, right?
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Keep all those plates spinning.
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If you do have a plan, a reverse outline, an outline, whatever, whatever format you really like to work with.
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If you have sort of figured out what your revision is going to look like, you will be able to enact it more successfully.
00:14:06.203 --> 00:14:13.844
So maybe put your mission statement that you came up with on a post it, a note card, even if you think you know what your book is about.
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It's really helpful to write one anyway and verbalize it.
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That helps with developing the query letter later in the process.
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If you plan on going on submission, create an outline, whether written or done visually with cards, codify that revision plan, then check each story element for cohesion.
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That means going through your outline or your visual board.
00:14:35.788 --> 00:14:41.318
Chapter by chapter, card by card, and asking yourself one question over and over.
00:14:41.328 --> 00:14:47.788
Does this plot point, character development point, scene, et cetera, fit my mission statement?
00:14:47.798 --> 00:14:51.749
Does each chapter, scene, conversation, description earn its keep?
00:14:51.798 --> 00:14:58.528
And here's where we start to be ruthless because we want to do revision, not just comma relocation, right?
00:14:58.854 --> 00:15:06.323
So if the manuscript doesn't deliver on the mission statement, either change the mission statement premise or change the execution.
00:15:06.813 --> 00:15:11.984
So, throughout our combined characters, move plot points around, slash the whole middle, and start over.
00:15:12.183 --> 00:15:19.153
If you know a section is problematic, even if you don't know why, tackle it now instead of waiting for later.
00:15:19.173 --> 00:15:29.364
Tackle it while you're still moving the big pieces around and doing that kind of revolutionary revision part of the work that's seeing the story with new eyes.
00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:35.578
If a chapter, character, or event doesn't fit the mission statement or theme, you have the following choices.
00:15:35.769 --> 00:15:40.818
Keep it, if you have a reason other than just sheer fondness for that thing.
00:15:41.168 --> 00:15:47.239
Put it aside, maybe create a separate doc if you simply can't bear deleting it into thin air.
00:15:47.573 --> 00:15:48.543
Or put it elsewhere.
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Maybe there's a more appropriate location for the element that you're sort of torn about.
00:15:53.833 --> 00:16:04.933
You will be compelled to keep problematic elements, but someone will likely call you out for that sooner or later, and your writing intuition, which is very powerful, will say, I told you so.
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Every writer, no matter where they are in their journey, has strong instincts.
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Even if you don't believe this about yourself yet.
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Sometimes you can revise more than one element per pass.
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Other times you might want to concentrate on one of these broad categories.
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For example, plot, right?
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Plot can take multiple revision passes to really nail everything down, especially if you're working with multiple points of view, multiple time frames, whatever.
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Ideally, your watchword for linking everything together is A clear sense of logic.
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Your character's choices should have, Logic and emotional truth behind them, ideally.
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Even if the character makes a mistake or, Demonstrates a flaw or a misbelief.
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They don't always have to be rational, But readers should know their RATIONALE.
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And I owe this turn of phrase to my best friend Scott.
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So he just, like, when he said that, it just, love it.
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I am so happy to pass it on to you fine people.
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So, readers should usually be able to interpret how their actions affect their short and long term objectives and needs.
00:17:13.153 --> 00:17:20.503
So, if the character is thinking critically and trying to logic out what they're doing and why, readers are following along.
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When external conflict happens, characters should consider a plot point's ramifications, set new expectations, identify stakes for whatever just happened or for what might happen.
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Interiority, which I don't know if we mentioned, I wrote a big ass book about.
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It nearly killed me.
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Is the access to your character's inner life and can convey a lot of logic for your point of view protagonists.
00:17:48.419 --> 00:17:49.679
or protagonist.
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Readers should be clear on the flow of the plot, which should only be able to progress in one cause and effect order.
00:17:55.989 --> 00:18:05.608
If the events of your plot can go in a dice cup, be shaken around and still work in a different order, your cause and effect logic is probably not as strong.
00:18:05.659 --> 00:18:11.199
And the world needs to have consistent rules and boundaries, which suggest consequences, ramifications.
00:18:11.509 --> 00:18:12.509
to the readers.
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If a character does X, readers should know enough about your world to expect Y.
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For example, you know, spitting in the face of a royal guard or whatever.
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We should know enough about the world to know just how deeply screwed your main character is if they make that choice.
00:19:17.419 --> 00:19:26.399
And then a couple other considerations were kind of in the homestretch here, watch your balance of action and information, especially at the beginning of your story.
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I have first pages on the brain these days, allow characters some downtime to rep to reset, integrate ramifications and strategize.
00:19:37.249 --> 00:19:45.889
So don't hit readers over and over and over with either too much action without having this reset time or too much information.
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Without action.
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So you can also speed up info dumps was seen dialogue plot.
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If you're working with multiple timelines or perspectives or whatever, consider making each thread into its own mini novel.
00:19:59.989 --> 00:20:03.288
So point of view a I'm going to take all their chapters.
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I'm going to Cut and paste them together into its own novel.
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And only once I've revised it for cohesiveness and cause and effect logic, do I chop them back up again and thread them into the larger whole.
00:20:17.084 --> 00:20:26.653
So you can also kind of make notes for yourself of any information or plot that's revealed between chapters to help you stay on top of where we are in the larger story.
00:20:27.134 --> 00:20:30.894
Then weave the threads back together, taking the opportunity to play with stakes.
00:20:31.288 --> 00:20:45.249
And cliffhangers, especially if you're working with multiple perspectives or timelines, like we leave thread A on a really tense moment, hopping over to thread B, leave that on a tense moment, then rejoin thread A to close the loop.
00:20:45.828 --> 00:20:53.179
There are just so many cool things you can do if you make some of these more advanced storytelling choices with multiple points of view and stuff.
00:20:53.729 --> 00:21:06.284
So when you play with suspense, you can track which information you're revealing when, how it affects both the reader's understanding of the story and of And each character's understanding of the story they're in as well.
00:21:06.624 --> 00:21:12.214
Especially in mystery, thriller, suspense, how you deploy information, who knows what, what the reader knows.
00:21:12.534 --> 00:21:15.094
All of these considerations need to be top of mind.
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Key pieces of data often have their own arcs because it matters who learns what and when, and whether characters are in the dark while readers are amassing clues, which is dramatic irony.
00:21:26.024 --> 00:21:28.054
Cause and effect logic is key here.
00:21:28.394 --> 00:21:34.594
If you are withholding information, make sure it will blow the story and the character's experience wide open.
00:21:35.014 --> 00:21:36.913
Otherwise why withhold it at all?
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These choices should be intentional.
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Conversely, I want to caution you against starving characters and plots of information because you're saving up for a big twist or reveal.
00:21:48.524 --> 00:22:00.314
If they have nothing to work with for the duration of the plot until the 90 percent mark, and suddenly it's like, Oh my God, My husband is my sister or whatever, you know, something, something crazy.
00:22:01.433 --> 00:22:04.824
The, the 80 percent leading up to that is going to be a flat line.
00:22:04.824 --> 00:22:11.894
So my sort of theory about that is that mysteries work best when we have.
00:22:12.193 --> 00:22:18.443
80 percent but we're missing a key 20 percent that changes everything, not the other way around.
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You don't build a novel by giving away only 20 percent of the information and expect the character to be able to be proactive or to make any forward progress.
00:22:27.834 --> 00:22:39.984
So yeah, too little information keeps the character passive and keeps It's locked into kind of a plateau until you feel like deploying your mind bending twist.
00:22:39.994 --> 00:22:51.894
But I would say a lot of readers probably won't last until that 80 percent mark to have their minds blown if there's not enough for characters and for the plot to do in the intervening 80%.
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And then the boring edit.
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So once you've done as much revision as you can handle, address the checklist, put the transcript away for at least two weeks.
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All that good stuff.
00:23:01.629 --> 00:23:10.419
You can reinvigorate your revision and the will to go on living in these late stages with the magical power of tricking yourself and delusion.
00:23:10.528 --> 00:23:12.629
Try to see your project objectively.
00:23:12.659 --> 00:23:14.389
Have you enacted your revision pass?
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How has various pieces of third party feedback informed your work?
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Now print out the manuscript if you've been working digitally or go to the screen if you've been revising on paper and do a boring edit.
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All you're allowed to do is mark in the margins where you find your own attention drifting.
00:23:30.524 --> 00:23:36.964
So you have to be paying attention not only to the story, but you have to be monitoring yourself and being self aware.
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It's kind of like mindfulness only hopefully a little bit less annoying.
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No, I'm from California and am a failed mindfulness person.
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So I have maybe a bit of a chip on my shoulder.
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If you can't, so mark in the margins where you notice that you're thinking about your grocery list, not the project at hand or the scene at hand or the exchange or whatever, because if you can't sustain interest in your own baby, how do you expect a stranger to become and stay intrigued?
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So figure out the issue with the passages or scenes that you've marked and make them more engaging.
00:24:11.769 --> 00:24:21.259
You may want to get another third party read at this point, just to make sure everything is kind of flowing and buttoned up and revised to the best of your ability.
00:24:21.259 --> 00:24:25.308
But the boring edit is a really fun exercise, despite its name.
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:33.969
Just to make sure that you are engaging people because that is the currency of storytelling is reader engagement is emotional investment.
00:24:34.489 --> 00:24:37.068
So once you've done your very best revision possible.
00:24:37.399 --> 00:24:43.239
Put the project away, maybe gotten another round of feedback, you need to decide whether it's worth another revision or if you're done.
00:24:43.828 --> 00:24:51.119
Of course, manuscript is never done until copy edits are turned in because you'll revise with the literary agent and acquisitions editor too.
00:24:51.778 --> 00:25:03.259
Now it's time to either submit or self publish, though I suggest hiring at least a proofreader, if not an outright copy editor, before you hand the draft directly over to readers in the self publishing scenario.
00:25:03.669 --> 00:25:09.609
typos and stuff in the comments sorry, in the reviews that your project is getting.
00:25:10.494 --> 00:25:18.173
You might land representation or a book deal, you might sell like gangbusters if you self publish, or you might do neither of those things.
00:25:18.183 --> 00:25:26.984
So, once you have a big piece of feedback, success or failure in the larger marketplace, you must choose whether to revise again or start something new.
00:25:27.324 --> 00:25:30.864
Some manuscripts are teachers, and that's totally fine.
00:25:30.884 --> 00:25:32.524
That is very, very valid.
00:25:32.999 --> 00:25:35.169
some manuscripts are not going to go the distance.
00:25:36.298 --> 00:25:39.068
But they each have something to teach us.
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They are each important in their own way.
00:25:41.969 --> 00:25:45.568
If you pause or stop on a specific project, you can always go back.
00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:48.399
The more you write and revise, the more ideas you will have.
00:25:48.409 --> 00:25:50.849
It is sort of a self feeding mechanism.
00:25:51.229 --> 00:25:53.479
Inspiration attracts more inspiration.
00:25:53.489 --> 00:25:55.089
I fully, firmly believe that.
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I don't believe in writer's block at all.
00:25:57.479 --> 00:25:59.808
Even when I'm feeling frustrated in my own process.
00:26:00.129 --> 00:26:04.009
You have zero control over the market, gatekeepers, trends, whatever.
00:26:04.209 --> 00:26:12.818
You can, however, control your own efforts to learn, grow, draft, revise, practice, read, attend conferences, use educational resources, etc.
00:26:13.058 --> 00:26:18.099
The product you're working on is yourself, not any one manuscript.
00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:22.328
It's you, the writer, because creative writing is all about the process.
00:26:22.564 --> 00:26:23.344
Not the product.
00:26:23.354 --> 00:26:25.244
Even though the product would be nice.
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:28.578
Yeah, that was that was amazing.
00:26:28.629 --> 00:26:30.519
Mary, that was so much.
00:26:30.788 --> 00:26:33.109
There's so much information like packed with info, which is awesome.
00:26:33.109 --> 00:26:37.538
I feel like I'll be re listening to this as I'm sure people will be as well.
00:26:37.709 --> 00:26:45.709
the getting used to getting feedback thing is is something that I know some writers struggle with and it is so true like you just have to get used to getting feedback.
00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:54.419
You have to figure out what your process is for like, handling it, getting through it, implementing it and then becoming a better writer for it.
00:26:54.469 --> 00:27:01.814
And I think that that initial gut reaction feeling of like, how didn't you like it like that it's valid like have it and then you know.
00:27:02.254 --> 00:27:05.524
don't live in that feeling, you know, move on from there.
00:27:05.784 --> 00:27:08.724
And I think like the cause and effect piece you mentioned was huge.
00:27:08.754 --> 00:27:15.703
The big revisions to small, I've, I've, especially early on in my writing, I, I got caught like fixing sentences and commas and periods.
00:27:15.703 --> 00:27:18.474
And then I like went back like two weeks later and cut that entire chapter.
00:27:18.474 --> 00:27:19.084
I was like, I spent.
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It's a moot point.
00:27:22.318 --> 00:27:25.548
the rule always is whatever it takes to get the book done.
00:27:25.879 --> 00:27:26.778
That's the rule.
00:27:26.788 --> 00:27:31.469
Like it does not matter what your process is, what you do, just get the book done.
00:27:31.699 --> 00:27:32.849
And so anything that helps.
00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:33.509
So this is great.
00:27:33.864 --> 00:27:35.474
Mary, I can't thank you enough.
00:27:35.534 --> 00:27:36.824
This, this was awesome.
00:27:36.884 --> 00:27:40.903
So if, if anybody has any other questions for Mary, you know, reach out.
00:27:41.239 --> 00:27:43.019
Follow her on, on all the socials.
00:27:43.328 --> 00:27:44.929
Thank you guys so much for having me.
