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Hello, everybody, and welcome to Three Steps Ahead.
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This is a business strategy podcast for business leaders looking to make smarter decisions and stay three steps ahead.
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My name is Martin Gibbs, and I'm joined today by my usual collaborator, Simon Cossey.
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Good morning.
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Simon, before we dive in too much deeper, you have an addition to the family since the last episode.
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Since the last episode, I've become a grandfather.
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Granddaddy.
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I keep telling everybody that, but it's amazing.
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So my my daughter's had a baby girl, which is which is a brilliant addition to the to the family, yes.
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So um we were away for a couple of weeks visiting.
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So brilliant I'm back doing is a three steps ahead podcast.
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So mother and baby both doing well, I hope.
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Mother and baby are both doing well, absolutely.
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Okay.
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Simon.
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And Rob Harrison.
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Rob is a special guest today, and Rob comes from Glued, a Stratford-upon-Avon-based marketing company.
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There's two parts to what Glued do.
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It's all about connecting people.
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Firstly, it's through clear and honest marketing.
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And then in recent years, they've also been focusing on something called Teams Glued, which is all about retaining the best staff and overcoming conflict.
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And there's a big VR element included in what Rob and his partner David Wilson do with Teams Glued.
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So today's episode is all about something that Rob calls the competence cliff.
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Why good managers still seem to fail under pressure.
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So Rob.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you.
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A little bit about Teams Glued then.
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Yeah, so Teams Glued plays into that notion that we all lean into our preferred behavioural inclinations, particularly under pressure, rather than reflecting upon how how might I behave in these circumstances to bring about a better outcome?
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And that's really all it plays into.
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And that you know that can have an impact domestically, professionally, whatever it might be.
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And in simple terms, that's what it plays into.
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But what it does use, as you rightly say, is a tantalizing bit of virtual reality escape room scenario and then behavioural modelling overlaid on that.
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And then we bring to it competition, teamwork, and yeah, a bit of jeopardy to bring the pressure up and allow us to trial to trial those, to give us the opportunity to trial different ways of behaving to bring about a different outcome.
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So jumping into this then, Rob, pressure changes behaviour.
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Yes.
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Strange actually.
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What it does, it brings out for many people, it brings out just our natural inclinations, you know, our knee-jerk responses, rather than considered or reflected responses.
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And that and that's really, I suppose, what we're trying to test with Teams Glued is you know, can we can we actually take a moment, step back, reflect, and do something different that might bring about a better outcome?
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It is difficult because I mean uh in a work scenario, something comes up and it can immediately bring up a conflict, the flight or fight reaction jumps in.
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It isn't necessarily that easy to step back and reflect in the moment.
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No, absolutely.
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And actually, I was doing a bit of preparation for this and came up with a fourth F.
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So we've got fright, flight, freeze, and also fawn.
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Okay.
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Which is you you you become obsequious to the person or the problem that's kind of like confronting you, and you try and placate it and get on side with it and whatnot.
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There are the four four possible and and they probably reflect the four different sort of behavioural types that we we bring to bring to the team's glued scenario.
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I mean, this is this is uh yeah, as you mentioned, the competence clear fits knowing is leading, why good managers fail under pressure.
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I mean, something that Martin will like is I I I I found a quote which I think is really good from a man I don't personally know, but Tim Gord, a former professional cyclist.
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And he said, I've been promoted to middle management, never thought I'd sink so low.
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And I thought that really encapsulated it because we're talking about this bid in the middle quite frequently.
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The management element is thrust upon people globally or nationally, it's recognised as you know, progression in your career, but often that's just you know thrusts into where really you have no particular inclination necessarily or skills in in that area.
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So the work that goes on in that middle management piece is absolutely critical to driving UK PLC forward and and and probably needs more attention than it gets already.
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And it's the you know, it's the human, it's part of the human condition to want to progress, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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So we we all want to be or feel we ought to be ambitious and want to be ambitious.
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So we become competent competent in our current role.
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Our seniors believe we can you we can we can therefore take the next step, but don't necessarily give us the skills, the confidence to then be able to do that.
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And and if it's going from the cold face to managing people, it's a very different role.
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It's a role where you have to abstract yourself from the how do I do it to how do I get other people to do it.
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Well, I think there's two aspects to that, Robin.
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One is obviously the succession, and I think the succession for let me say succession's sake.
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I need someone to take over from me so I can go and do something different.
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And whether that's the right person, that that that that view of succession changes.
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Interestingly, you mentioned that, and that's perhaps you've given our maturity on the on this web uh on this uh podcast.
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I will I was found some really interesting information.
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It's called the conscious unbossing.
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And I know that we have spoken about this kind of thing on other podcasts.
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Gen Z.
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52% of them do not want to manage.
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72% would choose an individual route to progression over a management route to progression.
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And you think that's a bit concerning because whatever business you're in, you're gonna have some young people.
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Whether we like it or not, something we can't get away from is generally speaking, younger people take over from older people.
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It's a fact of life.
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And what I was going to ask them was that is there anything else in that research or in what you found there that says that those young people also don't want to be managed?
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What it did say, I think it reflected more, these are just some stats I found, you know, and and it's talked about nearly two-thirds of them say the reason they don't want to manage is because they think it's too highly stressed and low reward.
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Yeah, fascinating, but I think generally speaking, uh you know, that not wanting to manage could well translate into not wanting to be managed.
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A big shift towards flatter, less hierarchical sort of structures in businesses as well, which is which is key.
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And I think that's where they see themselves working.
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And interesting, obviously, you're called team glued, which couldn't be more appropriate because it references a more team-based approach to management.
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So, Rob, why is becoming a manager harder than people think?
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From my perspective, I my background obviously is in accounting firms, and the way that you progress in accounting firms is you have to start off by being technically good at the job that you do, and then at some stage you end up managing people or become a partner in the firm.
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But all of your training is all geared towards the technical stuff.
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Very, very little has ever been aimed at managing people and understanding how to manage people.
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Yeah, I think nail on the head there.
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It is because until that point in our careers, we've been driven to become experts at what we're doing.
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And then to suddenly become responsible for other people who are becoming experts in what they're doing is a very big shift.
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And actually, there's very little packaged around helping us to achieve that step.
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You know, there may be some leadership and development stuff, there may be some psychometric profiling, there may be a company day out with a, you know, with an adventure, you know, trying to cross a river with some barrels and planks of woods or something like that.
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But that's a lot less than the effort that went into becoming an expert.
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And I think that's probably why.
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And and also being being a manager is a more kind of conceptual esoteric thing than being an expert at a very specific task.
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Certainly for me, looking back to the 1990s when I became a manager, most of what I learned was through the poor example of the leaders of the firm, who didn't at in those days they they had very set ways of doing things.
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So it was more a case of if I get to the point where I'm running a firm, what I will do is not what they do.
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I think Rob, you make a good a good point there as well.
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And we talk about just going back to what you said there about responsibility, if you're responsible for people, I think there's two bits to that.
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Not only are you going to be responsible for people, as in uh perhaps a caring, a holistic are you okay way, because it's almost that maternal aspect to responsibility.
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You could say, having just become a grandfather, you know, they are my children and I need to look after them to make sure, you know.
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But but what you do become is responsible for the actions of those people, and that's probably where the greatest conflict occurs, because you're responsible, you'll be judged on the actions of someone in your team.
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So if you've not successfully got them all on the same journey, then that that's a pitfall that's waiting to happen for you.
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And and and it's a conflict piece because again, my numbers, you know, it's yeah, over 50% of those in middle management say that the role just brings more conflict.
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And they spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to deal with that.
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And I think what what happens there is because you've been an expert, and you know you now know you're responsible for the outcomes of that team or those individuals, and it their actions don't result in the outcome you want.
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If they're not doing it the way you did it, then that must be what's wrong, which is where the inability to let go comes from.
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It's a lack of evolution on your part, in a sense, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So we've sort of knocked off the first two segments.
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Have we missed anything we wanted to talk about?
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Control avoidance, micromanagement.
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Is that something Rob where the the doer who becomes a manager ultimately the way the the behavior they might resort to is micromanaging?
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Yeah, I think I think what we've just talked about is where that where that comes from, is that they're they've come from a place of expertise and they've become a manager, and therefore they probably think that everything they've learnt in how to do that expert role is how it should be done.
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And therefore, if anybody who who's working with them or for them is doing it in a different way, then that's wrong.
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And therefore, they start to pick at you know aspects of it to try and bring it into line, as it were.
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What parts of your team glued area would address that kind of how how do we bring that on?
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Because m a lot of it's just in the moment, isn't it?
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I mean, you you mentioned before we would start a recording, you know, 80% of learning is lost in two weeks type thing.
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And and and yes, you can go and you know cross a river with barrels and woods, which is great in the moment, uh, but it's carrying forward some of the lessons that are learnt from crossing a river with some barrels and wood.
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How how does that, your your VR aspect, help explain?
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So there are two levels on which I'd answer that.
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So that the first and simplest one to answer is the is that we're imbuing an act, an adventurous activity, an alternative to crossing a river with barrels and planks, with this VR scenario and behavioural modelling, but we're imbuing it with learning because of that behavioral modelling.
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So not only are they having that exciting, you know, tension-bringing, competitive experience and immersive, but they're also doing it in full awareness of what their behavioural inclination is and what the behavioural inclinations of others are, and they're being given the opportunity to flex their behaviour, and therefore all of that is going to be far more memorable than if they're just sat at a desk.
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And if you then compare it to the adventure exercise where there's none of that, and therefore there's actually nothing to remember anyway.
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So, in terms of uh management training, we've all been on courses, we've all done done stuff, come away with the the uh the pack of notes, which then goes to sit on your bookshelf.
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And uh the key thing here is avoiding the scenario, which is that often most leadership training ends up in disappointment.
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Because you do the course, you learn what you learn, and you're back to the coal face.
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It's very difficult to actually put it in play.
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Yeah, and I th I I hope what we're doing here, and you know there are other ways of doing this, but I hope what we're doing here is giving people the opportunity to practice altering their behavior from that which where they would ordinarily do.
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One to prove it's safe, two, and two, to prove they can do it, and and and three, hopefully, that actually it can bring about a better income, but better better outcome.
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I mean two things which have worked for my previous firm very well was personality profiling and an exercise of uh 360 feedback.
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Uh the 360 feedback was a really interesting exercise.
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It sort of worked, but it probably created some collateral damage along the way.
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But with the personality profiling, which was uh it was Myers Briggs, I think, that we used.
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So we at least understood why certain members of the team, myself included, thought in certain ways and acted in certain ways, uh, because uh our uh our drivers were different.
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And I know you're into this, Simon, because the yellow growth company, yellow is a key uh a key factor for you.
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Absolutely, that's uh a defining colour in my life, uh according to everyone around me.
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So hence why it's called the Yellow Growth Company, and uh you know that that outgoing conversational approach is obviously key to all that I do.
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I can even see Rob smiling because obviously we've we've met many times before.
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I think that that's absolutely critical, and of course, you know, uh there are trying to match colours if you're using the colours, or as an approach to that, trying to match colours and capabilities from the colours so you get better outcomes is key.
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Again, your your VR experience is an opportunity to drift from say yellow to blue, from red to green, so you have that safe environment where you can you can perhaps challenge yourself to learn how you might communicate with a the opposite colour better.
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I'm being very generic there, but yeah, that's the kind of thing.
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Yeah, that that you know that that's absolutely it.
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And and we've purposely created the model so it can plug into it, can dovetail with Insights, Disk, Myers, Briggs.
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And in fact, we've just delivered a program to a leadership pathway, and they're using disk.
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So we we altered the materials we were using to correlate to the disk colours.
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And and the beauty here is that we are using animals instead of colours, or as well as colours, and the animals are cute little illustrated figures, and they become quite relatable, quite, quite fun, quite you feel a bit affectionate about them.
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You know, we've got a panther, a koala, a mere cat, and a fox, and people wear a sticker of them.
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Suddenly flashed up in my subconscious, was there was a was it Steve Coogan, the the was it Gareth the salesman, and you're a tiger?
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Anyway.
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But in a very in a very subtle way there, Rob, what you're doing is is whereas traditionally you'd have had that label of being red, blue, green, yellow, and a very clear definition of what those types are, your your process and and your product, if you want to call it that, is really making all of those much softer and much more appealing.
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You're not, you know, a red would be you know, a red versus a yellow is not a great combination in a conversation.
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But you're taking that and smoothing the edges a little bit.
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And and giving people the opportunity to realize there are other behaviours and to actually interact with them and to realise that their own behaviour will shift, regardless of whether they actually want it to or not, if they if they just lean on their inclinations, it will shift.
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But the realization that, yeah, we can actually step back from it from a moment and say, well, actually, would reacting like that or doing it in that particular way, have an abrasive conflict generating?
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Would it disrupt an innovative process?
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Would it would it get in the way of productivity?
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Would it stop the team dynamic from working as well as it was?
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Could I do something that adds to all of that rather than detracts from it?
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If you were sort of look of the courses and the sessions that you've run so far, what would you say would be something that you know has come out of that that people are taking away in terms of how they might make a change in their approach?
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Well, we have some video evidence of this from participants.
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I I think it is that e even with, for instance, learning and development professionals who have been on it, that far deeper appreciation of their inclination and therefore a deeper belief that they can shift it, that they could don't have to just act like that, that there is an opportunity to say, oh well, I don't almost like I don't have to feel that way.
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I can think about it differently and react about it differently, and and that will actually bring about a different outcome and a different way that I feel about it.
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So what one one of the reasons why I think we won the Innovate UK granting for grant grant for the product is that we found a piece of research from the CIPD and ACAST that said every organization loses a thousand pounds per head per employee per year to conflict.
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And we believe our product stands a very good chance of helping people deal with conflict in a constructive way rather than an abrasive negative deconstruct negative way.
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And so often one small bit of conflict within a team can have a domino effect that impacts a whole a whole line of people with unintended consequences.
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So what is a a recent experience where we had a a client who I know had had a bad experience in a deal and then joined a review meeting, and I could tell that his behavior in that meeting had been impacted by the bad deal.
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He was he became quite bullying.
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Yeah.
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And I think there's an example of a situation where somebody Had an opportunity to or could take an opportunity to step back and say, I'm feeling like this at the moment.
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If I take this into the meeting and act in that way, it's not going to be helpful.
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And I could take I I need to switch from being, in our instance, a panther to becoming perhaps a koala or a meer cat or a fox.
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And then the other one was that we've touched on it a couple of times about family.
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And what's really interesting is that one of the connections we've made is with a charity in Coventry who deals with families, deals with families that are under stress, you know, families that are in conflict and things like that.
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And we're we're trying to find a way of funding doing a Teams glued for them.
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And the person that runs that charity refers to the family as your first team.
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And the point she's making is it's twofold.
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This is if you can if you can work out how to be a great team member in your family, not only is that great for your family and everybody in it and the impact they can have on the world, but it also means that when you go into the workplace, you'll stand a far better chance of being a great team member there.
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And and brilliant.
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And obviously the your team glued approach as well.
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We don't tend to, if I'm yellow at work, I don't tend to suddenly become red at home.
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Yeah, I don't change, you know, so they are so closely linked, aren't they?
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It it I think that's really important.
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A lot of you learn a lot, well, I think you learn a lot of lessons when your kids are young growing up because it puts your feet back on the ground sometimes when you realise that you can't, you know, they they won't respond to you know something you might do at work where you're able to perhaps tell someone to do something, they won't necessarily respond in the same in the same way.
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So I think there's a lot of learning that crosses both there.
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Yeah.
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Rob, with your team's glued offering with VR, why does simulation work?
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And and what was the inspiration for developing it?
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Well, it works because it's more than role play.
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You get and in this instance, in things like VR and XR, you get immersed in a circumstance.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.039
So in this instance, there are actually two levels of immersion.
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.519
The most obvious one is in the headset.
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:36.480
And actually, each team only has one headset, so not everybody's in a headset.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:42.880
They can swap the headset around, but when you're in the headset, you're utterly immersed in a railway carriage.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:44.640
So that's one level of immersion.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:57.200
But then the next level of immersion is that you're a member of a team competing against a bunch of other teams in the room against the clock to stop a train that's in the headset hitting the buffers.
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:06.079
And you've got to help the person, whoever happens to be in the headset at that moment, help them get through four carriages to stop it from hitting the buffers.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.640
And there's all this pressure going on around you as well.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.519
And so, yeah, the two two levels of immersion.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:22.640
And then you, as a member of that team, you're collectively acting to try and resolve these puzzles that allow you to get through the carriages.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:42.720
That means uh trying to decipher physical puzzles that have got words and images and colours and and numbers and whatnot, work out who's best to do what, work out who's best to wear the headset, all whilst realizing I'm carrying a badge of my behavioural profile here or my behavioural inclination.
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.519
This is what they're expecting of me, but is that what's going to be helpful in the circumstances?
00:25:47.759 --> 00:26:01.440
It's really immersive, really active, a bit stressful, and therefore all of that becomes far more memorable than sitting there in front of a PowerPoint or ticking boxes at a psychometric profile.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:02.799
I'm not saying that's wrong.
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:13.839
This is a an overlay to things like psychometrics, and and that's exactly how we're delivering it at the moment as part of a program of disk in a leadership pathway.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:31.039
So bits of training that I've had over the years that have involved elements of role playing, they tend to be quite stressful for all involved because you've got the person who's you know at the center of it, but other people are then having to play a role as well.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:35.680
So with the VR simulation, does that help that?
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:43.599
I I think what really makes it work is the fact that you are you have to form a team really quickly.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.480
Okay.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:49.359
So you have to start acting as a team really quickly, otherwise it just don't won't work.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:56.960
And I've not had, you know, we've done this half a dozen times already with must be around about 20 different teams.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.920
And never has a team not formed.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:07.519
So you never don't go into this then with one person being right, you are the new, you're the new manager.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.319
This is this is how we're going to help you develop.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.799
It it it's looking for leaders to emerge naturally or for a team.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:15.440
Right.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:15.839
Okay.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:16.240
Yeah.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:26.400
Although there is a circumstance in which you could say, well, okay, you as a team, you're going to need to nominate who is which behavioural profile, who is which behavioural inclination.
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.839
You could do it that way.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:38.960
But it sounds as though if the train is heading towards the the buffers at a a breakneck speed, you haven't got long to make your mind up how you're going to do it and who's going to take that role.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.680
Yeah, and that that's part of what creates the pressure.
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:52.799
And then added to that is that as each team gets through a carriage, we announce it with a horn, honking horn, and say which team has got through which carriage so other teams know if they're behind.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:28:10.000
And I think as well, it's interesting when you get to that bit, Rob, that you whether you are a Panther or a Fox, in that moment, the need to work together as a team could supersede a fair chunk of your behavioural inclination.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.319
You've got to be a team in the moment, right there.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:19.440
Yeah, and in a sense, it's a oh, that bit is missing from our collective efforts here.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.160
I I need to nobody else is doing the words.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:23.279
I'll do the words.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.160
This is a really interesting example, I think.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.200
Is it the slightly larger organization this fits best with?
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.000
From an affordability point of view, possibly.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:32.319
Yeah.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.839
But but I think it works as well with smaller businesses.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:39.039
You asked earlier about where the idea of simulation came from.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.599
It probably came from Coventry University because we went to the simulation center there.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.880
I mean, probably must be maybe 10 years ago.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.599
It's near where my business partner used to live.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.920
You know, we saw a simulation going on there.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:07.119
And then when we were starting to come up with the idea for what was actually at the time a networking event, we were working with the dean for business in the arts and humanities, and they happened to be launching the Delia Derbyshire building, which is their center of the metaverse.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:13.440
And there's XR, VR, Hack Rooms, AI, all of that in this purpose-built space.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:19.839
And I saw some VR and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting to try and get people engaged around.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:25.200
They started coming up with ideas for some form of sort of challenge within the headset.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.799
And then I thought, well, what if we put behavioral modeling over this?
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:43.599
David and I have done disc and insights, and we've had the reports, and we have referred back to them, but they'd be far more memorable and far more believable if we could actually act on them.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:45.759
So that's kind of where that came from.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:30:01.039
If we have a scenario then, Rob, where somebody listening or watching this podcast, let's say they manage a team of 30 people, what can they start doing in a different way tomorrow morning then, uh, which is going to have an impact?
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:04.880
Yeah, so you you primed me with this and said, what, three things.
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.119
So I've got three things.
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:12.799
The first is realise their their own behavioral inclinations.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:30.640
Or is the example I gave earlier, realize how they're feeling at the moment that they're about to embark upon resolving an issue or or embarking upon a new project or something, and think about how you're feeling or how you're intending behaving about that.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.640
And then the second thing is think about how other people might behave or feel about the circumstance you're going to encounter, get involved in.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:58.880
And then the final thing, there's probably a fourth thing as well, but the final of the three would be how how would I alter my position given my reflection on my own feeling and behavioural inclination and my assessment of other people's behavioural inclination and feelings?
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:06.480
How might I alter that feeling or behaviour to bring about a better outcome from those circumstances?
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:11.039
Could shifting it be a positive impact on the circumstances?
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.000
You know, should I be aggressive forthright?
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.680
Should I be the team player and gather people around?
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:27.759
We talked about the competence, Cliff, this being sort of how this form of VR interaction can help managers better in the workplace.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:37.519
I think for me, in my head, the number one skill that middle managers require is adaptive communication.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.359
And I think everything that Rob's spoken about can assist in developing that.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.359
I mean, ultimately, what have you got to do?
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:50.960
You've got to translate the goals of the senior team to the team around you so that they can all pull in the same direction.
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:52.559
But you're always a buffer.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.400
You're never going to get away from that, are you?
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.960
You're the ultimate buffer in the business.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:06.160
From the people at the top who set the goals and set the direction, you somehow have got to filter out the noise and deliver some outcomes.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:08.079
That falls onto you.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.000
And our starting point was, you know, I mean, your article is why mid-level managers struggle under pressure.
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:18.480
You put those three things together, and that's a huge pressure valve there.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:23.599
So your VR experience is how can we get the best from those people?
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:25.440
I think it's absolutely critical.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:33.839
Whether you're a big business, whether you're a small business, you've got to get the best from those people in order to move forward in your business.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.960
Yeah, but I I think you you've hinted at it there.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:54.640
Realising these abilities to choose different ways of approaching problems can equally be used to benefit in the managing upwards that you spoke about, as well as with the team that you're working with or members of your staff, whichever way you want to look at it.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:04.640
Our other partner in this project, Simon, Richard Miller, in our time as fellow partners at Daphne's, he had a very good approach to these things.
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:13.839
And if there was a difficult situation or we were having to manage some form of conflict, he would always start off with, What's the definition of success?
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.759
Start with the end in mind.
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:16.160
Yeah.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:18.240
What are we trying to achieve here?
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:27.519
And how can we therefore modify our approach from this point forward to increase our probability of achieving what we are trying to achieve?
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:34.799
Yeah, I mean, the end in mind, with my backdrop of my my hockey changing room, is a huge sporting analogy as well.
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:41.599
And it's not just one great big ending in mind, it's that series of many, many, many ends in mind.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:49.200
And when you're in the workplace, it's very often the smallest of tasks where you need to start with the end in mind.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:56.640
As a sort of middle manager, I think you have to recognise yourself that it is impossible to know everything.
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.279
So you've got to learn the art of collaboration.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:06.960
So look is there one leadership behaviour then that you've personally had to learn under pressure?
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:23.920
There is one leadership behaviour I've had to learn under pressure, and that is the ability to do you know, to bite my lip and shut up, listen, and pause.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:38.639
That then gives you one, it gives the the other party or the other situation a chance to play out because you we may be predicting what the outcome of it is, and you don't like the look of what the outcome looks like it's gonna be.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:49.599
But it also gives you that opportunity to say, I was gonna do this, but could could doing something else be better, or could doing nothing be better?
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:56.960
But pa listening and pausing are the two most valuable things I've learned.
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.559
I I I agree, I I'd go, there's an electronic pause as well.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.079
It's like don't reply to an email when you're a bit sort of furious about it.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:07.039
Yeah.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:21.519
So you've got to stop yourself, walk away, have a think about it, park it till you can construct if you're choosing to respond electronically, of course, and not being big enough and bold enough to perhaps head that off or tackle it face to face.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.480
Uh it's like a an electronic version of what you're saying.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:25.840
You've got to stop yourself, haven't you?
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:28.719
And think things through.
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:30.480
And to misquote Mr.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.559
Miller, Richard Miller, yet again, something Richard and I used.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.400
HALT being an acronym, H A L T.
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:43.679
So you've got a difficult situation, conflict, not something that could blow up.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:44.719
HALT.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:50.639
So don't jump into something if you're hungry, angry, late, or tired.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.960
So it's that but Halt.
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:53.679
Very good.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.880
HALT and start with the end in mind.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.000
But but inebriated is fine.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.320
I think that might be the tired bit.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.599
It's quite fascinating we've spoken about this today because I attended a well-being session yesterday.
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:24.719
And a lot of the aspects that we've spoken about here there's a massive read across to some of the thoughts and issues and challenges that came out of well-being.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.800
Of course, the minute you say well-being, everyone presumes that's a health thing.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.400
But this was well-being.
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.320
A lot of talk about how we interact with other people.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.880
That has an impact on their well-being.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:46.239
I the links between what you're doing here in the VR, the simulation world, what we're trying to do here is to get those middle managers who struggle under that pressure.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:58.880
How can we recognise how we might be able to help them better, get them to perform better, get the teams to perform better, is all loops back into elements of that well-being piece as well.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:04.079
Yeah, because yeah, how you talk to your colleague, people often don't forget the way that you've spoken to them.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:09.360
It takes an awful long time for those kind of things to be mitigated.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.800
So really important in that well-being piece as well.
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:19.199
Teams glued is a great opportunity to actually get people back into the workplace, even if it's just for this one event.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:27.039
And in doing that, because of the nature of Teams Glued, you proved to them that getting together is good.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.719
Teamwork is good, and people are capable of it.
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:34.480
And actually getting back into the office is good as well.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.320
And I've got a case in point.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:44.079
We first delivered this in its embryonic form before we got the Innovate UK funding to develop all our own materials around it.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.719
We delivered it to a fintech in Solihell to 50 of their middle-level managers.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.199
These guys, coders and programmers, so a lot of them were introverts.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:02.159
And the CEO lent in to me during the program and he said, There are several people here today that I haven't seen in the office for two years.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.960
So, Rob, with Teams Glued, you have a series of demos running over the next few weeks and months.
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:12.400
How can people find out more?
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:19.119
We're going to be continually putting out demos to find an audience, to find potential customers.
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:22.239
So we're going to be doing it probably on a quarterly basis.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.000
And all they need to do is look at our website.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.360
And a link probably up there if I get it.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:32.000
Yeah, it's actually a strip across the top at the moment.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:33.119
A strip across the top.
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:50.719
But yeah, they're full versions of the event, but they're intended for people who might be considering using it either as a standalone piece or as part of a wider learning and development programme to give them a real feel for what it's like and what the impacts are and how they can get the best use out of it.
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.360
Well, thank you, Rob, for joining us today.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:55.039
It's been really interesting.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.400
Simon, before we go, do you have a final statistic for us?
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:00.079
A final statistic.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.760
Now you've put me on the spot.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:02.800
Oh, here we go.
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:07.519
This was from Simon Sinick, and he was talking about middle management.
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.800
41% of their time is actually spent managing people.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.639
44% of the time was spent at meeting, and the rest is admin.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:18.639
So we've got to create more time to do better things.
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:27.599
I was kind of amazed the amount of middle management time that is spent doing some admin and attending meetings that probably don't help them that much.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:33.039
So this is a perfect opportunity to get under the skin of that and make some changes.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:34.639
Could I just add one thing then?
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:46.000
Given the stats that Simon started with and the flatter structures and you know the more even, sort of less hierarchical approach, I don't think this is just about benefits for managing.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:52.159
This is also benefits about being a team player, about how to be a dynamic individual and team player.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.599
Absolutely.
00:39:53.920 --> 00:40:03.840
And with the remaining whatever percentage they should spend more time watching podcasts or listening to podcasts, all of which will help them stay three steps ahead.
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:05.360
Absolutely.
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:08.800
Anyway, thank you, Simon.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:09.679
Thank you, Rob.
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:10.719
Three steps ahead.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.559
We'll be back in a few weeks.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:13.840
We will see you then.
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.280
So thank you very much.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.320
Thanks, Rob.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:17.440
Thank you too.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.440
Thank you for allowing me to be part of it.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:20.239
Thank you, Rob.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:20.639
That's great.
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.199
Thanks, Rob.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.199
Um I've got some really good stuff there.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:24.400
So uh Yeah.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.159
Anyway, cheers, guys.
00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:03.759
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Three Steps Ahead.
00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:11.599
This is a business strategy podcast for business leaders looking to make smarter decisions and stay three steps ahead.
00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:17.600
My name is Martin Gibbs, and I'm joined today by my usual collaborator, Simon Cossey.
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.879
Good morning.
00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:25.920
Simon, before we dive in too much deeper, you have an addition to the family since the last episode.
00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.920
Since the last episode, I've become a grandfather.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:31.039
Granddaddy.
00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:36.799
I keep telling everybody that, but it's amazing.
00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:42.000
So my my daughter's had a baby girl, which is which is a brilliant addition to the to the family, yes.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.960
So um we were away for a couple of weeks visiting.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:49.600
So brilliant I'm back doing is a three steps ahead podcast.
00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:52.240
So mother and baby both doing well, I hope.
00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:54.799
Mother and baby are both doing well, absolutely.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:55.200
Okay.
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:55.759
Simon.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.359
And Rob Harrison.
00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:04.079
Rob is a special guest today, and Rob comes from Glued, a Stratford-upon-Avon-based marketing company.
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.560
There's two parts to what Glued do.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:08.239
It's all about connecting people.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.439
Firstly, it's through clear and honest marketing.
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:20.959
And then in recent years, they've also been focusing on something called Teams Glued, which is all about retaining the best staff and overcoming conflict.
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:28.719
And there's a big VR element included in what Rob and his partner David Wilson do with Teams Glued.
00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:34.400
So today's episode is all about something that Rob calls the competence cliff.
00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.799
Why good managers still seem to fail under pressure.
00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:39.680
So Rob.
00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:41.439
Thank you for joining us.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:42.319
Thank you.
00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.120
A little bit about Teams Glued then.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:02:07.200
Yeah, so Teams Glued plays into that notion that we all lean into our preferred behavioural inclinations, particularly under pressure, rather than reflecting upon how how might I behave in these circumstances to bring about a better outcome?
00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.199
And that's really all it plays into.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:15.039
And that you know that can have an impact domestically, professionally, whatever it might be.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.360
And in simple terms, that's what it plays into.
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:28.719
But what it does use, as you rightly say, is a tantalizing bit of virtual reality escape room scenario and then behavioural modelling overlaid on that.
00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:46.319
And then we bring to it competition, teamwork, and yeah, a bit of jeopardy to bring the pressure up and allow us to trial to trial those, to give us the opportunity to trial different ways of behaving to bring about a different outcome.
00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.280
So jumping into this then, Rob, pressure changes behaviour.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:52.080
Yes.
00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:53.680
Strange actually.
00:02:54.080 --> 00:03:06.479
What it does, it brings out for many people, it brings out just our natural inclinations, you know, our knee-jerk responses, rather than considered or reflected responses.
00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:19.520
And that and that's really, I suppose, what we're trying to test with Teams Glued is you know, can we can we actually take a moment, step back, reflect, and do something different that might bring about a better outcome?
00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:34.240
It is difficult because I mean uh in a work scenario, something comes up and it can immediately bring up a conflict, the flight or fight reaction jumps in.
00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.719
It isn't necessarily that easy to step back and reflect in the moment.
00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:40.879
No, absolutely.
00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:46.400
And actually, I was doing a bit of preparation for this and came up with a fourth F.
00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:51.439
So we've got fright, flight, freeze, and also fawn.
00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:52.639
Okay.
00:03:52.960 --> 00:04:03.759
Which is you you you become obsequious to the person or the problem that's kind of like confronting you, and you try and placate it and get on side with it and whatnot.
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:14.240
There are the four four possible and and they probably reflect the four different sort of behavioural types that we we bring to bring to the team's glued scenario.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:23.040
I mean, this is this is uh yeah, as you mentioned, the competence clear fits knowing is leading, why good managers fail under pressure.
00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:33.680
I mean, something that Martin will like is I I I I found a quote which I think is really good from a man I don't personally know, but Tim Gord, a former professional cyclist.
00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:40.560
And he said, I've been promoted to middle management, never thought I'd sink so low.
00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:47.360
And I thought that really encapsulated it because we're talking about this bid in the middle quite frequently.
00:04:48.079 --> 00:05:07.519
The management element is thrust upon people globally or nationally, it's recognised as you know, progression in your career, but often that's just you know thrusts into where really you have no particular inclination necessarily or skills in in that area.
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:20.079
So the work that goes on in that middle management piece is absolutely critical to driving UK PLC forward and and and probably needs more attention than it gets already.
00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:24.800
And it's the you know, it's the human, it's part of the human condition to want to progress, isn't it?
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:25.360
Yeah.
00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:31.040
So we we all want to be or feel we ought to be ambitious and want to be ambitious.
00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.560
So we become competent competent in our current role.
00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:47.759
Our seniors believe we can you we can we can therefore take the next step, but don't necessarily give us the skills, the confidence to then be able to do that.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.279
And and if it's going from the cold face to managing people, it's a very different role.
00:05:53.360 --> 00:06:01.680
It's a role where you have to abstract yourself from the how do I do it to how do I get other people to do it.
00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.000
Well, I think there's two aspects to that, Robin.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:10.319
One is obviously the succession, and I think the succession for let me say succession's sake.
00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.279
I need someone to take over from me so I can go and do something different.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.759
And whether that's the right person, that that that that view of succession changes.
00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:27.759
Interestingly, you mentioned that, and that's perhaps you've given our maturity on the on this web uh on this uh podcast.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.720
I will I was found some really interesting information.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.040
It's called the conscious unbossing.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.720
And I know that we have spoken about this kind of thing on other podcasts.
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:38.000
Gen Z.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.800
52% of them do not want to manage.
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:52.000
72% would choose an individual route to progression over a management route to progression.
00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:58.079
And you think that's a bit concerning because whatever business you're in, you're gonna have some young people.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:05.680
Whether we like it or not, something we can't get away from is generally speaking, younger people take over from older people.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:07.279
It's a fact of life.
00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:19.040
And what I was going to ask them was that is there anything else in that research or in what you found there that says that those young people also don't want to be managed?
00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:34.319
What it did say, I think it reflected more, these are just some stats I found, you know, and and it's talked about nearly two-thirds of them say the reason they don't want to manage is because they think it's too highly stressed and low reward.
00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:46.240
Yeah, fascinating, but I think generally speaking, uh you know, that not wanting to manage could well translate into not wanting to be managed.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:52.480
A big shift towards flatter, less hierarchical sort of structures in businesses as well, which is which is key.
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.040
And I think that's where they see themselves working.
00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:02.959
And interesting, obviously, you're called team glued, which couldn't be more appropriate because it references a more team-based approach to management.
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.600
So, Rob, why is becoming a manager harder than people think?
00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:24.480
From my perspective, I my background obviously is in accounting firms, and the way that you progress in accounting firms is you have to start off by being technically good at the job that you do, and then at some stage you end up managing people or become a partner in the firm.
00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.959
But all of your training is all geared towards the technical stuff.
00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:35.759
Very, very little has ever been aimed at managing people and understanding how to manage people.
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.360
Yeah, I think nail on the head there.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:47.840
It is because until that point in our careers, we've been driven to become experts at what we're doing.
00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:56.879
And then to suddenly become responsible for other people who are becoming experts in what they're doing is a very big shift.
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:03.600
And actually, there's very little packaged around helping us to achieve that step.
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:18.480
You know, there may be some leadership and development stuff, there may be some psychometric profiling, there may be a company day out with a, you know, with an adventure, you know, trying to cross a river with some barrels and planks of woods or something like that.
00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:23.440
But that's a lot less than the effort that went into becoming an expert.
00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.360
And I think that's probably why.
00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:34.080
And and also being being a manager is a more kind of conceptual esoteric thing than being an expert at a very specific task.
00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:51.840
Certainly for me, looking back to the 1990s when I became a manager, most of what I learned was through the poor example of the leaders of the firm, who didn't at in those days they they had very set ways of doing things.
00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:00.159
So it was more a case of if I get to the point where I'm running a firm, what I will do is not what they do.
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:05.519
I think Rob, you make a good a good point there as well.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:14.399
And we talk about just going back to what you said there about responsibility, if you're responsible for people, I think there's two bits to that.
00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:27.120
Not only are you going to be responsible for people, as in uh perhaps a caring, a holistic are you okay way, because it's almost that maternal aspect to responsibility.
00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:34.799
You could say, having just become a grandfather, you know, they are my children and I need to look after them to make sure, you know.
00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:52.799
But but what you do become is responsible for the actions of those people, and that's probably where the greatest conflict occurs, because you're responsible, you'll be judged on the actions of someone in your team.
00:10:52.879 --> 00:11:00.879
So if you've not successfully got them all on the same journey, then that that's a pitfall that's waiting to happen for you.
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:11.600
And and and it's a conflict piece because again, my numbers, you know, it's yeah, over 50% of those in middle management say that the role just brings more conflict.
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.200
And they spend a disproportionate amount of time trying to deal with that.
00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:30.960
And I think what what happens there is because you've been an expert, and you know you now know you're responsible for the outcomes of that team or those individuals, and it their actions don't result in the outcome you want.
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:40.399
If they're not doing it the way you did it, then that must be what's wrong, which is where the inability to let go comes from.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.639
It's a lack of evolution on your part, in a sense, isn't it?
00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:47.279
Yeah.
00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:52.159
Okay.
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.960
So we've sort of knocked off the first two segments.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.039
Have we missed anything we wanted to talk about?
00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:05.919
Control avoidance, micromanagement.
00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:22.080
Is that something Rob where the the doer who becomes a manager ultimately the way the the behavior they might resort to is micromanaging?
00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:41.759
Yeah, I think I think what we've just talked about is where that where that comes from, is that they're they've come from a place of expertise and they've become a manager, and therefore they probably think that everything they've learnt in how to do that expert role is how it should be done.
00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:50.399
And therefore, if anybody who who's working with them or for them is doing it in a different way, then that's wrong.
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:56.879
And therefore, they start to pick at you know aspects of it to try and bring it into line, as it were.
00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:06.240
What parts of your team glued area would address that kind of how how do we bring that on?
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.200
Because m a lot of it's just in the moment, isn't it?
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:17.200
I mean, you you mentioned before we would start a recording, you know, 80% of learning is lost in two weeks type thing.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:30.399
And and and yes, you can go and you know cross a river with barrels and woods, which is great in the moment, uh, but it's carrying forward some of the lessons that are learnt from crossing a river with some barrels and wood.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:34.799
How how does that, your your VR aspect, help explain?
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.840
So there are two levels on which I'd answer that.
00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:56.240
So that the first and simplest one to answer is the is that we're imbuing an act, an adventurous activity, an alternative to crossing a river with barrels and planks, with this VR scenario and behavioural modelling, but we're imbuing it with learning because of that behavioral modelling.
00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:22.000
So not only are they having that exciting, you know, tension-bringing, competitive experience and immersive, but they're also doing it in full awareness of what their behavioural inclination is and what the behavioural inclinations of others are, and they're being given the opportunity to flex their behaviour, and therefore all of that is going to be far more memorable than if they're just sat at a desk.
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:29.440
And if you then compare it to the adventure exercise where there's none of that, and therefore there's actually nothing to remember anyway.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:41.679
So, in terms of uh management training, we've all been on courses, we've all done done stuff, come away with the the uh the pack of notes, which then goes to sit on your bookshelf.
00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:51.519
And uh the key thing here is avoiding the scenario, which is that often most leadership training ends up in disappointment.
00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:58.080
Because you do the course, you learn what you learn, and you're back to the coal face.
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:00.399
It's very difficult to actually put it in play.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:14.480
Yeah, and I th I I hope what we're doing here, and you know there are other ways of doing this, but I hope what we're doing here is giving people the opportunity to practice altering their behavior from that which where they would ordinarily do.
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:26.559
One to prove it's safe, two, and two, to prove they can do it, and and and three, hopefully, that actually it can bring about a better income, but better better outcome.
00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:41.279
I mean two things which have worked for my previous firm very well was personality profiling and an exercise of uh 360 feedback.
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.799
Uh the 360 feedback was a really interesting exercise.
00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:50.480
It sort of worked, but it probably created some collateral damage along the way.
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:57.919
But with the personality profiling, which was uh it was Myers Briggs, I think, that we used.
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:10.240
So we at least understood why certain members of the team, myself included, thought in certain ways and acted in certain ways, uh, because uh our uh our drivers were different.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:17.600
And I know you're into this, Simon, because the yellow growth company, yellow is a key uh a key factor for you.
00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.200
Absolutely, that's uh a defining colour in my life, uh according to everyone around me.
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:33.120
So hence why it's called the Yellow Growth Company, and uh you know that that outgoing conversational approach is obviously key to all that I do.
00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.039
I can even see Rob smiling because obviously we've we've met many times before.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:54.000
I think that that's absolutely critical, and of course, you know, uh there are trying to match colours if you're using the colours, or as an approach to that, trying to match colours and capabilities from the colours so you get better outcomes is key.
00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:17.759
Again, your your VR experience is an opportunity to drift from say yellow to blue, from red to green, so you have that safe environment where you can you can perhaps challenge yourself to learn how you might communicate with a the opposite colour better.
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.559
I'm being very generic there, but yeah, that's the kind of thing.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.880
Yeah, that that you know that that's absolutely it.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:31.200
And and we've purposely created the model so it can plug into it, can dovetail with Insights, Disk, Myers, Briggs.
00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:37.119
And in fact, we've just delivered a program to a leadership pathway, and they're using disk.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:43.680
So we we altered the materials we were using to correlate to the disk colours.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:01.279
And and the beauty here is that we are using animals instead of colours, or as well as colours, and the animals are cute little illustrated figures, and they become quite relatable, quite, quite fun, quite you feel a bit affectionate about them.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.519
You know, we've got a panther, a koala, a mere cat, and a fox, and people wear a sticker of them.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:15.119
Suddenly flashed up in my subconscious, was there was a was it Steve Coogan, the the was it Gareth the salesman, and you're a tiger?
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:19.519
Anyway.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:47.440
But in a very in a very subtle way there, Rob, what you're doing is is whereas traditionally you'd have had that label of being red, blue, green, yellow, and a very clear definition of what those types are, your your process and and your product, if you want to call it that, is really making all of those much softer and much more appealing.
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:56.000
You're not, you know, a red would be you know, a red versus a yellow is not a great combination in a conversation.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.559
But you're taking that and smoothing the edges a little bit.
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:18.240
And and giving people the opportunity to realize there are other behaviours and to actually interact with them and to realise that their own behaviour will shift, regardless of whether they actually want it to or not, if they if they just lean on their inclinations, it will shift.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:30.640
But the realization that, yeah, we can actually step back from it from a moment and say, well, actually, would reacting like that or doing it in that particular way, have an abrasive conflict generating?
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:33.279
Would it disrupt an innovative process?
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.079
Would it would it get in the way of productivity?
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.519
Would it stop the team dynamic from working as well as it was?
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.519
Could I do something that adds to all of that rather than detracts from it?
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:59.119
If you were sort of look of the courses and the sessions that you've run so far, what would you say would be something that you know has come out of that that people are taking away in terms of how they might make a change in their approach?
00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.839
Well, we have some video evidence of this from participants.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:34.640
I I think it is that e even with, for instance, learning and development professionals who have been on it, that far deeper appreciation of their inclination and therefore a deeper belief that they can shift it, that they could don't have to just act like that, that there is an opportunity to say, oh well, I don't almost like I don't have to feel that way.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:43.839
I can think about it differently and react about it differently, and and that will actually bring about a different outcome and a different way that I feel about it.
00:20:44.400 --> 00:21:03.759
So what one one of the reasons why I think we won the Innovate UK granting for grant grant for the product is that we found a piece of research from the CIPD and ACAST that said every organization loses a thousand pounds per head per employee per year to conflict.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:17.519
And we believe our product stands a very good chance of helping people deal with conflict in a constructive way rather than an abrasive negative deconstruct negative way.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:28.960
And so often one small bit of conflict within a team can have a domino effect that impacts a whole a whole line of people with unintended consequences.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:49.200
So what is a a recent experience where we had a a client who I know had had a bad experience in a deal and then joined a review meeting, and I could tell that his behavior in that meeting had been impacted by the bad deal.
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.519
He was he became quite bullying.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:52.400
Yeah.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:22:07.359
And I think there's an example of a situation where somebody Had an opportunity to or could take an opportunity to step back and say, I'm feeling like this at the moment.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:12.880
If I take this into the meeting and act in that way, it's not going to be helpful.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:23.839
And I could take I I need to switch from being, in our instance, a panther to becoming perhaps a koala or a meer cat or a fox.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.200
And then the other one was that we've touched on it a couple of times about family.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:44.240
And what's really interesting is that one of the connections we've made is with a charity in Coventry who deals with families, deals with families that are under stress, you know, families that are in conflict and things like that.
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:50.319
And we're we're trying to find a way of funding doing a Teams glued for them.
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:56.799
And the person that runs that charity refers to the family as your first team.
00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:59.440
And the point she's making is it's twofold.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:18.480
This is if you can if you can work out how to be a great team member in your family, not only is that great for your family and everybody in it and the impact they can have on the world, but it also means that when you go into the workplace, you'll stand a far better chance of being a great team member there.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:19.839
And and brilliant.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.720
And obviously the your team glued approach as well.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:28.640
We don't tend to, if I'm yellow at work, I don't tend to suddenly become red at home.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:34.240
Yeah, I don't change, you know, so they are so closely linked, aren't they?
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.400
It it I think that's really important.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:24:00.000
A lot of you learn a lot, well, I think you learn a lot of lessons when your kids are young growing up because it puts your feet back on the ground sometimes when you realise that you can't, you know, they they won't respond to you know something you might do at work where you're able to perhaps tell someone to do something, they won't necessarily respond in the same in the same way.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:04.079
So I think there's a lot of learning that crosses both there.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:05.119
Yeah.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:12.640
Rob, with your team's glued offering with VR, why does simulation work?
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.200
And and what was the inspiration for developing it?
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.559
Well, it works because it's more than role play.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:25.920
You get and in this instance, in things like VR and XR, you get immersed in a circumstance.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:29.039
So in this instance, there are actually two levels of immersion.
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:31.519
The most obvious one is in the headset.
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:36.480
And actually, each team only has one headset, so not everybody's in a headset.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:42.880
They can swap the headset around, but when you're in the headset, you're utterly immersed in a railway carriage.
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:44.640
So that's one level of immersion.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:57.200
But then the next level of immersion is that you're a member of a team competing against a bunch of other teams in the room against the clock to stop a train that's in the headset hitting the buffers.
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:06.079
And you've got to help the person, whoever happens to be in the headset at that moment, help them get through four carriages to stop it from hitting the buffers.
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.640
And there's all this pressure going on around you as well.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.519
And so, yeah, the two two levels of immersion.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:22.640
And then you, as a member of that team, you're collectively acting to try and resolve these puzzles that allow you to get through the carriages.
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:42.720
That means uh trying to decipher physical puzzles that have got words and images and colours and and numbers and whatnot, work out who's best to do what, work out who's best to wear the headset, all whilst realizing I'm carrying a badge of my behavioural profile here or my behavioural inclination.
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.519
This is what they're expecting of me, but is that what's going to be helpful in the circumstances?
00:25:47.759 --> 00:26:01.440
It's really immersive, really active, a bit stressful, and therefore all of that becomes far more memorable than sitting there in front of a PowerPoint or ticking boxes at a psychometric profile.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:02.799
I'm not saying that's wrong.
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:13.839
This is a an overlay to things like psychometrics, and and that's exactly how we're delivering it at the moment as part of a program of disk in a leadership pathway.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:31.039
So bits of training that I've had over the years that have involved elements of role playing, they tend to be quite stressful for all involved because you've got the person who's you know at the center of it, but other people are then having to play a role as well.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:35.680
So with the VR simulation, does that help that?
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:43.599
I I think what really makes it work is the fact that you are you have to form a team really quickly.
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.480
Okay.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:49.359
So you have to start acting as a team really quickly, otherwise it just don't won't work.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:56.960
And I've not had, you know, we've done this half a dozen times already with must be around about 20 different teams.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.920
And never has a team not formed.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:07.519
So you never don't go into this then with one person being right, you are the new, you're the new manager.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.319
This is this is how we're going to help you develop.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.799
It it it's looking for leaders to emerge naturally or for a team.
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:15.440
Right.
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:15.839
Okay.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:16.240
Yeah.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:26.400
Although there is a circumstance in which you could say, well, okay, you as a team, you're going to need to nominate who is which behavioural profile, who is which behavioural inclination.
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.839
You could do it that way.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:38.960
But it sounds as though if the train is heading towards the the buffers at a a breakneck speed, you haven't got long to make your mind up how you're going to do it and who's going to take that role.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.680
Yeah, and that that's part of what creates the pressure.
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:52.799
And then added to that is that as each team gets through a carriage, we announce it with a horn, honking horn, and say which team has got through which carriage so other teams know if they're behind.
00:27:52.880 --> 00:28:10.000
And I think as well, it's interesting when you get to that bit, Rob, that you whether you are a Panther or a Fox, in that moment, the need to work together as a team could supersede a fair chunk of your behavioural inclination.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.319
You've got to be a team in the moment, right there.
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:19.440
Yeah, and in a sense, it's a oh, that bit is missing from our collective efforts here.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.160
I I need to nobody else is doing the words.
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:23.279
I'll do the words.
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.160
This is a really interesting example, I think.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.200
Is it the slightly larger organization this fits best with?
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.000
From an affordability point of view, possibly.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:32.319
Yeah.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.839
But but I think it works as well with smaller businesses.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:39.039
You asked earlier about where the idea of simulation came from.
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.599
It probably came from Coventry University because we went to the simulation center there.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.880
I mean, probably must be maybe 10 years ago.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.599
It's near where my business partner used to live.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.920
You know, we saw a simulation going on there.
00:28:52.079 --> 00:29:07.119
And then when we were starting to come up with the idea for what was actually at the time a networking event, we were working with the dean for business in the arts and humanities, and they happened to be launching the Delia Derbyshire building, which is their center of the metaverse.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:13.440
And there's XR, VR, Hack Rooms, AI, all of that in this purpose-built space.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:19.839
And I saw some VR and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting to try and get people engaged around.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:25.200
They started coming up with ideas for some form of sort of challenge within the headset.
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:28.799
And then I thought, well, what if we put behavioral modeling over this?
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:43.599
David and I have done disc and insights, and we've had the reports, and we have referred back to them, but they'd be far more memorable and far more believable if we could actually act on them.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:45.759
So that's kind of where that came from.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:30:01.039
If we have a scenario then, Rob, where somebody listening or watching this podcast, let's say they manage a team of 30 people, what can they start doing in a different way tomorrow morning then, uh, which is going to have an impact?
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:04.880
Yeah, so you you primed me with this and said, what, three things.
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.119
So I've got three things.
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:12.799
The first is realise their their own behavioral inclinations.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:30.640
Or is the example I gave earlier, realize how they're feeling at the moment that they're about to embark upon resolving an issue or or embarking upon a new project or something, and think about how you're feeling or how you're intending behaving about that.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:40.640
And then the second thing is think about how other people might behave or feel about the circumstance you're going to encounter, get involved in.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:58.880
And then the final thing, there's probably a fourth thing as well, but the final of the three would be how how would I alter my position given my reflection on my own feeling and behavioural inclination and my assessment of other people's behavioural inclination and feelings?
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:06.480
How might I alter that feeling or behaviour to bring about a better outcome from those circumstances?
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:11.039
Could shifting it be a positive impact on the circumstances?
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.000
You know, should I be aggressive forthright?
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.680
Should I be the team player and gather people around?
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:27.759
We talked about the competence, Cliff, this being sort of how this form of VR interaction can help managers better in the workplace.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:37.519
I think for me, in my head, the number one skill that middle managers require is adaptive communication.
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.359
And I think everything that Rob's spoken about can assist in developing that.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.359
I mean, ultimately, what have you got to do?
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:50.960
You've got to translate the goals of the senior team to the team around you so that they can all pull in the same direction.
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:52.559
But you're always a buffer.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.400
You're never going to get away from that, are you?
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.960
You're the ultimate buffer in the business.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:06.160
From the people at the top who set the goals and set the direction, you somehow have got to filter out the noise and deliver some outcomes.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:08.079
That falls onto you.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:14.000
And our starting point was, you know, I mean, your article is why mid-level managers struggle under pressure.
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:18.480
You put those three things together, and that's a huge pressure valve there.
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:23.599
So your VR experience is how can we get the best from those people?
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:25.440
I think it's absolutely critical.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:33.839
Whether you're a big business, whether you're a small business, you've got to get the best from those people in order to move forward in your business.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.960
Yeah, but I I think you you've hinted at it there.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:54.640
Realising these abilities to choose different ways of approaching problems can equally be used to benefit in the managing upwards that you spoke about, as well as with the team that you're working with or members of your staff, whichever way you want to look at it.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:04.640
Our other partner in this project, Simon, Richard Miller, in our time as fellow partners at Daphne's, he had a very good approach to these things.
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:13.839
And if there was a difficult situation or we were having to manage some form of conflict, he would always start off with, What's the definition of success?
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.759
Start with the end in mind.
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:16.160
Yeah.
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:18.240
What are we trying to achieve here?
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:27.519
And how can we therefore modify our approach from this point forward to increase our probability of achieving what we are trying to achieve?
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:34.799
Yeah, I mean, the end in mind, with my backdrop of my my hockey changing room, is a huge sporting analogy as well.
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:41.599
And it's not just one great big ending in mind, it's that series of many, many, many ends in mind.
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:49.200
And when you're in the workplace, it's very often the smallest of tasks where you need to start with the end in mind.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:56.640
As a sort of middle manager, I think you have to recognise yourself that it is impossible to know everything.
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.279
So you've got to learn the art of collaboration.
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:06.960
So look is there one leadership behaviour then that you've personally had to learn under pressure?
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:23.920
There is one leadership behaviour I've had to learn under pressure, and that is the ability to do you know, to bite my lip and shut up, listen, and pause.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:38.639
That then gives you one, it gives the the other party or the other situation a chance to play out because you we may be predicting what the outcome of it is, and you don't like the look of what the outcome looks like it's gonna be.
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:49.599
But it also gives you that opportunity to say, I was gonna do this, but could could doing something else be better, or could doing nothing be better?
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:56.960
But pa listening and pausing are the two most valuable things I've learned.
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.559
I I I agree, I I'd go, there's an electronic pause as well.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.079
It's like don't reply to an email when you're a bit sort of furious about it.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:07.039
Yeah.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:21.519
So you've got to stop yourself, walk away, have a think about it, park it till you can construct if you're choosing to respond electronically, of course, and not being big enough and bold enough to perhaps head that off or tackle it face to face.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.480
Uh it's like a an electronic version of what you're saying.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:25.840
You've got to stop yourself, haven't you?
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:28.719
And think things through.
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:30.480
And to misquote Mr.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.559
Miller, Richard Miller, yet again, something Richard and I used.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.400
HALT being an acronym, H A L T.
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:43.679
So you've got a difficult situation, conflict, not something that could blow up.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:44.719
HALT.
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:50.639
So don't jump into something if you're hungry, angry, late, or tired.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.960
So it's that but Halt.
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:53.679
Very good.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.880
HALT and start with the end in mind.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:00.000
But but inebriated is fine.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.320
I think that might be the tired bit.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.599
It's quite fascinating we've spoken about this today because I attended a well-being session yesterday.
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:24.719
And a lot of the aspects that we've spoken about here there's a massive read across to some of the thoughts and issues and challenges that came out of well-being.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.800
Of course, the minute you say well-being, everyone presumes that's a health thing.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.400
But this was well-being.
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.320
A lot of talk about how we interact with other people.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.880
That has an impact on their well-being.
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:46.239
I the links between what you're doing here in the VR, the simulation world, what we're trying to do here is to get those middle managers who struggle under that pressure.
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:58.880
How can we recognise how we might be able to help them better, get them to perform better, get the teams to perform better, is all loops back into elements of that well-being piece as well.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:04.079
Yeah, because yeah, how you talk to your colleague, people often don't forget the way that you've spoken to them.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:09.360
It takes an awful long time for those kind of things to be mitigated.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.800
So really important in that well-being piece as well.
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:19.199
Teams glued is a great opportunity to actually get people back into the workplace, even if it's just for this one event.
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:27.039
And in doing that, because of the nature of Teams Glued, you proved to them that getting together is good.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.719
Teamwork is good, and people are capable of it.
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:34.480
And actually getting back into the office is good as well.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:36.320
And I've got a case in point.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:44.079
We first delivered this in its embryonic form before we got the Innovate UK funding to develop all our own materials around it.
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:48.719
We delivered it to a fintech in Solihell to 50 of their middle-level managers.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.199
These guys, coders and programmers, so a lot of them were introverts.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:02.159
And the CEO lent in to me during the program and he said, There are several people here today that I haven't seen in the office for two years.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:10.960
So, Rob, with Teams Glued, you have a series of demos running over the next few weeks and months.
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:12.400
How can people find out more?
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:19.119
We're going to be continually putting out demos to find an audience, to find potential customers.
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:22.239
So we're going to be doing it probably on a quarterly basis.
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.000
And all they need to do is look at our website.
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.360
And a link probably up there if I get it.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:32.000
Yeah, it's actually a strip across the top at the moment.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:33.119
A strip across the top.
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:50.719
But yeah, they're full versions of the event, but they're intended for people who might be considering using it either as a standalone piece or as part of a wider learning and development programme to give them a real feel for what it's like and what the impacts are and how they can get the best use out of it.
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.360
Well, thank you, Rob, for joining us today.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:55.039
It's been really interesting.
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:58.400
Simon, before we go, do you have a final statistic for us?
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:00.079
A final statistic.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.760
Now you've put me on the spot.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:02.800
Oh, here we go.
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:07.519
This was from Simon Sinick, and he was talking about middle management.
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.800
41% of their time is actually spent managing people.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.639
44% of the time was spent at meeting, and the rest is admin.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:18.639
So we've got to create more time to do better things.
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:27.599
I was kind of amazed the amount of middle management time that is spent doing some admin and attending meetings that probably don't help them that much.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:33.039
So this is a perfect opportunity to get under the skin of that and make some changes.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:34.639
Could I just add one thing then?
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:46.000
Given the stats that Simon started with and the flatter structures and you know the more even, sort of less hierarchical approach, I don't think this is just about benefits for managing.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:52.159
This is also benefits about being a team player, about how to be a dynamic individual and team player.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:53.599
Absolutely.
00:39:53.920 --> 00:40:03.840
And with the remaining whatever percentage they should spend more time watching podcasts or listening to podcasts, all of which will help them stay three steps ahead.
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:05.360
Absolutely.
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:08.800
Anyway, thank you, Simon.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:09.679
Thank you, Rob.
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:10.719
Three steps ahead.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.559
We'll be back in a few weeks.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:13.840
We will see you then.
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.280
So thank you very much.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.320
Thanks, Rob.
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:17.440
Thank you too.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.440
Thank you for allowing me to be part of it.
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:20.239
Thank you, Rob.
00:40:20.320 --> 00:40:20.639
That's great.
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.199
Thanks, Rob.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.199
Um I've got some really good stuff there.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:24.400
So uh Yeah.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.159
Anyway, cheers, guys.
