Do You Really Have to Attend Church

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Welcome to Three Chicks in the Bible, where we ditch the easy answers, roll up our sleeves, and wrestle with the hard stuff in Scripture.
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We're talking about the real questions, the messy parts, and what it looks like to follow Jesus.
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No fences, no filters, just three women chasing after truth, beauty, and the wild, untamable Christ.
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We are so glad that you've joined us today.
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All right, friends, here we are.
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We are gonna we're gonna spend today talking about can you be a spiritually healthy Christian and never go to church?
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What does the Bible say about church attendance?
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So that's what I don't know if that's the actual title of our episode, but maybe it will be by the time we're done.
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But that's the topic.
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So jumping right in, the early church had no buildings, no bulletins, no bylaws.
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So people have no idea what a bulletin is, and no 501c3 status, uh just broken bread, shared resources, and shared ministry.
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If that's the biblical model, how much of what we call going to church is actually church?
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And what does it mean to attend church?
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So who is so excited they want to jump right in and has all the answers?
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I think that's a fair question to define it for sure.
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Um, and I my my thing was I I went back to that verse in Acts 242 that said that there were 3,000 souls added to the church, and they said they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer.
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And you know, you can't do that by yourself.
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That was a joint thing that they were doing together, and um, so it's just you know, the encouragement and all that goes on can't go on if you're you're alone or sometimes even with a very small group.
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And um, you know, I had a friend years ago whose husband didn't like uh the some of the doctrine that was going on in the church, he decided to start his own church, which gave me the creeps because what, you know, it was him, them, and one other family who were lovely people, but I'm not sure it was a healthy uh balanced mix of people.
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And um well, I know it wasn't because the things they came up with, but it just, you know, I think I think there's a big difference between being in a group dedicated to those things and not not going at all.
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But you know, and you've got the other extreme, these big mega churches where people file in and get their seat and sit through the service and then leave.
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Nothing else is going on there.
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And so there's things, there's things we really need to say to define what a church should be doing.
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And I think Paul did a pretty good job of it.
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Well, that's it, and plenty of um like around the world, and plenty of denominations.
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Church is a service where you show up, you you know, it happens, and you sort of partake of the service and and then you leave.
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And you know, there are plenty of denominations where showing up that one week, that's what matters.
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That's you know, so and there are you know, and to be fair, there are a lot of people for whom that has great meaning, that every week they they they go, they there's this tradition that happens, and they um, and that for them, that is attending church.
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And then there are, you know, there are others who are focused more on this model that we see in Acts, where the believers are sort of doing life together, right?
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And it does, you know, a little further down in that passage, it talks about them um day by day attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes.
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So they were also, you know, they were this wasn't like a weekly show-up.
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This was an even small group.
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This was them worshiping all the time and studying and praying, and you know, this was a an intense um being in in each other's lives kind of situation.
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Um that didn't, you know, you know, this group in Jerusalem broke up at some point, so you know, and scattered to other places.
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So yeah.
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Um when Paul wrote the word church, ecclesia, he wasn't talking about a building, he was talking about a group of people that were called to go, not a place to go.
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So we say we go to church, and I think we're using the word completely wrong.
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I think that might be part of our problem.
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I'm gonna try really hard not to grab a bullhorn and stand on a soapbox right now on this issue.
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I'm gonna try really hard because I have a problem with some of um what our church has become, and it makes me sad.
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If Paul walked into our churches right now, he wouldn't recognize it.
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You know, why are these people sitting in rows?
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Why are they looking at one person who's talking?
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Where's the meal?
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Why isn't anybody participating?
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I mean, we it's it's a cultural thing, and it has changed so much from what their culture was to what ours is, and it works for us, maybe.
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I don't know if it really does.
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So, do people have to go to church to be Christians?
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No, I one my question would be are you a Christian and go to church?
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I mean, what are the churches per producing?
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What are some of them producing?
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Are they producing disciples or are they producing consumers?
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You know, so that that's my that would be my question.
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What is the Western church producing?
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I work with people in Pakistan, and it is not like our church is not like their church there.
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They are actually going out and doing and being with people and praying with people, and it's not a place to go, it's a people to be.
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And I think we miss that, and it makes me really sad.
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Yeah.
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Well, that's it.
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In places like China, where you know, people sacrifice a great deal to meet together, that that's you know, being able to worship together is you know, like is uh, you know, a priority that sometimes costs them going to prison or you know, their jobs or you know, like certainly sleep and some element of risk and travel.
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And um, so I think that in you know, here in America, especially, you know, like I don't I've never been to Europe and and in America we have a lot of we have a wide range of congregations, I will say.
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We have you know wide, you know, from mega churches to house churches to um little, you know, in New England we have a lot of little tiny churches, and you know, I'm sure that's true in other areas.
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Um and and everybody's got their you know, the pluses and their minuses.
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You know, everybody's got uh there's no perfect um group of people worshiping together anywhere.
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But yeah, like the performance aspect in any church, it can happen a small church or a mega church.
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There's a performance aspect, a consumer aspect, you know, just just showing up at attending church is not any, I don't see it anywhere in scripture as just like just attend the service is not uh you know a commandment.
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And the fruit of that attitude is when you get people, and we have them here in Annapolis, but that there's a kind of a roaming group that goes from one church and they stay for maybe six, eight months, and then they uh we can't worship here, and then they go to another church, and then they, you know, and you know, and I was talking to one woman who was actually going to join our church, I was joining too, it was early on into my experience with New Hope, but um, and she said, Yeah, you know, I said, Well, you know, how come because she was leaving a very well-established good church, I thought, and she said, I just I can't worship there anymore.
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And I thought, I give you two years and you're out of here.
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And it was right, because it it's not what the church can do for you, it's what you can do for the church, and I mean, this Holy Spirit gifted us with ways that we can work within the body and function as a unity, unified body, um, so that the church can be built up and encouraged.
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I mean, there's God had a plan for that, and so when we just keep flitting around looking for what gives us the most joy and satisfaction, and you know, you have to be careful how you pick a church.
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I'm not disregarding that, but you know, it doesn't have to be all glitz and and glamour, it can just be just solid commitment and dedication to each other that makes a healthy church.
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But when you get that, you don't have people skipping around, they're vested, they're doing it, invested, I should say, and doing it.
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And so, anyway, that that's the fruit is a lack of commitment, um, kind of a flakiness about attending and that kind of thing.
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So, anyway, I hate sounding judgmental, but I just really feel like that's the way God kind of has us operate.
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Yeah, I think that there are a couple of different ways to be.
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I mean, there are a lot of ways to go wrong with this question, but I you know, like you can hide while you show up at church.
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You know, like you can show up at church faithfully every week and still not let anybody in, not invest in anybody else, not interact, you know, not interact with the Lord even.
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You're just showing up.
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Um, I also think that you can, you know, and like I can't, you know, there's no church that basically can contain my faith, or there's no church that I can, you know, I'm so I'm so burned at church, like, you know, too holy for all of us unrighteous congregations, or you know, all the different reasons some people have for being lone ranger believers out there.
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And, you know, like I don't have to be in a church to be a Christian.
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Like, no, that's true.
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But like being in fellowship with other believers is actually a calling.
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That is a, I believe, like we are in a family, we have a responsibility to interact with the family.
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So being estranged from the people of God, whether you're showing up at church or avoiding it, you know, at a church service or showing or being on your own, if you're estranged from the people of God, that's not a an ideal situation.
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That's yeah, and I think I wonder if our culture, our churches have made it a problem by uh a problem to attend church, or people saying I don't need to attend church by making it be such a solo relationship with Jesus, your personal relationship with Jesus.
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Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
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You know, all these questions, it's all about me and not the community and the ecclesia at large.
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And so we think, I don't need to go to church, I don't need I I can have a personal relationship and have a spiritual moment on the golf course.
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I can, you know, listening to music, I can look inside myself and find God.
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And I think we've done people a disservice by not saying this is a corporate um relationship.
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We are all a body, we're all in this together.
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It's not about I, it's about the we.
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And I think if our focus changes about that, then we'll start saying, I need to be with the body, I need to do that.
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And whatever that looks like for you, I'm not gonna, me personally, I'm not gonna be a part of a big corporate church anymore.
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I'm in a smaller fellowship now, and that's what you know is where God is calling me to be with other people that can um you know challenge me.
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And I need to be open to challenge and all that kind of stuff.
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And I don't think our churches are set up for that anymore, it's more of a personal relationship.
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What am I getting out of it?
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And what you know, I think we also worship worship.
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I can't worship here.
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Oh, I can't worship here, you know.
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Like you said, Julie, I I can't do that.
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I can't, huh?
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All right.
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What about the body?
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What is Jesus doing?
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And have we made this church be um so corporatized, so empire-like, that we have made it exactly the opposite of what Jesus was trying to invert in religion and get us away from?
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I think that might be part of the problem too, and people sense it and so I don't want to be a part of that, I can't be a part of that anymore.
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This corporatized business church.
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It looks more like empire than it does shalom.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I don't I don't see as much empire here in Rhode Island, but I understand like I understand.
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You know, like I you know, I understand what you're saying, like not and not that small churches can't do that same thing, but yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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When we when Rome made it legal to um meet and be a church, our churches started looking more like Rome with the hierarchy and you know, all that and we started looking more like Rome than we did the early believers, the early church that were going out instead of coming in.
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Yep.
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Sorry, I got on my soapbox.
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No, that's okay.
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So Hebrews 25 is like the go-to verse that people pull out for church attendance, right?
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Um you want me to read it?
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Anybody have it queued up?
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Yeah, go ahead.
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Thank you.
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Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together.
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Okay.
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But it was written to a persecuted church community hiding in house gatherings, not suburban mega churches with parking lot attendance.
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That still kills me that there are churches.
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I'm sorry, like I like I'm just like, I want to see a church sometime with parking lot attendance.
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Oh, yeah.
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Are we applying a survival mode command to a consumer Christianity context?
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It was never meant to address.
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So we probably have started to touch on that.
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But Julie, what are your thoughts?
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You know, I wonder sometimes what is spurring on how we do things, right?
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We have goals in mind and we see a means to an end and sometimes embrace it that might not be the wisest thing.
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Um, a big thing is numbers.
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You know, um, everybody wants their church to be growing, um, especially me.
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And uh people, you know, they want to look good, not not just look good, but feel like they're being effective, right?
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And so the numbers thing, and I'm not yes, yes, the more that God brings you, do it, you know.
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But um sometimes we're offering that what the consumer is looking for just to get them to come.
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And and I, you know, that's a little, I don't know, disingenuous to me.
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I just feel like it's it's you know, yes, we all want to grow, believe me.
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I wish my church was three times the size that it is, but it's not.
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I keep praying, and the Lord keeps saying, nope, not yet, or never, I don't know.
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But you know, but why are we doing what we're doing?
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We're doing it to serve the body of Christ and to be love and light in the world.
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And so um, you can do that with 40 people like we are, or you can do it, you know, with a larger group, but it's it's why you're doing things.
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What's the goal?
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What are you looking for?
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And how much is God entering into that is the other thing for me.
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Um, how much have you sought him out?
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Uh is this a you know thing you've been led to do by the Holy Spirit?
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But it is so cultural, it makes me suspicious.
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Um, because any church that's you know big successful, they all do the same kinds of things and um and it gives me the creeps.
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Not I'm not judging, but I'm just saying, uh, you know, when I look at what Axe, the early church was doing, uh I think we've strayed.
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I think we've strayed.
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And the fact that we can have people who are leaving because they've been hurt or whatever, um, that we're doing something wrong because you know, we can forgive, we can, you know, we can help people through things, you know.
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We need we need let people be honest and transparent.
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And if they're not, they're just wearing a mask, no good.
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And so there's there's things that can happen that will prevent a final leaving, which you know, we've play we've had plenty of people leave our church for various reasons, but anyway, it's just I think if the church was operating correctly, you don't see anybody stomping out of the church at Ephesus, you know.
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Well, because there was only, you know, like like the you know, I like and and we're not supposed to ecclesiastics like don't look back at the past and say like those were the days, like you know, because that's foolishness, like but I mean it you know, the structure at that point was so vastly different than the one we are dealing with.
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So, like we have to look, you know, because for those most of you know, like there was a church of believers in Ephesus, there was a church of believers in you know, Philippi.
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Like that you, if you were a you know, a believer in Christ, you met with the believers in Christ in that city or that town, and that's what you did.
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And so, you know, very you know, different from well, now there's 16 different flavors of denomination in my, you know, in my very small town, we have very, you know, we have a variety of denominations.
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And so then there's more than one Baptist.
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There's a we're the you know, we're on this end of town with a first Baptist Church of Hope Valley, and on the other end, there's a Seventh-day Baptist church, and I think there's probably another flavor of Sunday Baptist.
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So, you know, and and super small town.
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Um, but so you know, we're dealing with something different.
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So I think then we look at verses like Hebrews 10, 25, and the Lord wants us to meet with one another.
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That is crucial.
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Does that mean we beat each other up if you don't have perfect Sunday attendance, if you aren't, you know, doing the prescribed, you know, it's it's gotta be on Sunday morning, it's gotta be, it's gotta look like this or that.
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I, you know, I don't know, like that's they weren't even set up like that then.
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So it's it's hard to imagine that that's exactly what he meant.
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Yeah, I I see here in my town, like you said, there are multiple everywhere, there's multiple churches that you can, you know, go to.
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And I see the competition between the churches.
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I was involved in a church that, you know, they wanted to do a trunk or treat.
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Okay, well, the church down the street was doing a trunk or treat where our trunk or treat is going to be better, so all the people will come to our trunk or treat.
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Yeah, are you kidding?
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First off, let's start with trunk or treat.
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But the competition between the churches is sickening, you know.
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Our programs become um the main thing to get people in the door so they can tithe, so they can keep the programs going and pay for the building and all that.
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That is not what we were intended to do as the ecclesia.
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And it hurts people because they're overlooked.
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Money becomes more important than members members, than the people.
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So is it should we attend something, a gathering, a something?
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Yes, we need to be with other people, iron sharpening iron, doing the stuff together, questioning one another.
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Why do you believe that?
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Work out the stuff that you know, following Jesus in our culture right now, what does that look like for us?
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How do we do the stuff of Jesus right now and not become part of the culture, but you know, here and influence it?
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So should should we be a part?
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Yeah.
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Does it have to be a church?
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Absolutely not.
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And maybe depending where you are, it's better that you're not.
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:57.119
Better that you're not, because you know, you get caught up in the woo-hoo, let's let's, you know, never mind.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:57.759
I'm done.
00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:58.720
I'm done.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:06.079
Well, I think like the next question, probably we've also answered this, but like I think there's a good discussion in this.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:21.519
If a believer is more spiritually fed, more accountable, more actively serving God outside the traditional church structure, like through online community, home groups, or parachurch ministry, is skipping weekend services actually sinful or just uncomfortable for the institution?
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:32.400
Like, I guess for me, like it goes to this whole, you know, there's always um, you know, there are people there were kids at school who loved learning.
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:44.400
And then there were also kids in school who would, you know, like could hear like someone come in from the outside and give this like incredible testimony about like surviving Auschwitz or something.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:47.279
And they'd raise their hand and go, is that gonna be on the test?
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.960
And you'd just be like, Man, are you asking the wrong question?
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:51.279
Right.
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:58.240
And so that's like this idea of like, how often do I have to attend church, or is it bad if I miss church?
00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:03.599
Like, that's the that's That question for me is like, is this going to be on the test?
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.920
Whereas like it, there's more like, what does it look like?
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:13.359
Does it look like like we the early church they wanted to be with others?
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:15.839
They they wanted to be serving.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.240
They wanted to be with, you know, like sharing the gospel.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:25.519
You know, like that was the their point was like, look, we're free and we want you to be free.
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:29.440
And they share the gospel even if they got beaten up for it.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:34.880
And there are plenty of believers around the world who face that same situation.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:39.680
Who are, you know, like I'm gonna be imprisoned for this, or I'm gonna be beat up for this, or I'm gonna lose my job.
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:41.599
I'm still gonna preach the gospel.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:49.279
And here in the West, we're like, oh, I just it doesn't, it feels yucky to share the gospel.
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.440
And like, how often do I have to be a church?
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:58.079
Like it just, it's for me, it's symptomatic of a deeper spiritual problem that we have.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.119
Yes, what what do you think that deeper spiritual problem is?
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:25.440
Um I think probably a large bunch of cultural Christianity that's like that's not the you know, that's not our the our faith, you know, and that people have come to, you know, like all the stuff that people associate now with Christianity that really has nothing to do with Christianity.
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:41.039
If you, you know, it's I remember a missionary who served in Europe used to talk about the fact like if you keep if you give people carob all their lives and tell them it's chocolate, and then you offer them actual chocolate, they're gonna wrinkle their noses and be like, no thanks.
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.160
And you're like, no, no, like what do you mean no thanks to chocolate?
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:44.880
This is the best stuff.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:46.000
No.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:24:00.079
And so I think that if you've been fed a counterfeit um Christianity, and that's all you've ever seen, that of course, when you're offered the actual thing, you're gonna be like, oh no, I've tasted that.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:14.000
And so, in many ways, we've inoculated people against the faith because of this greater cultural monster called the church.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:17.279
Yeah.
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:25.440
When I was little, I went to a church that uh movies, playing cards, dancing were all from Satan.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.279
And so we weren't allowed to do any of that.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.880
Well, they are, aren't they?
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:45.680
Are they not really, but anyway, when I was, I guess third grade maybe, my parents took me to see the a movie in a movie theater, and um, it was how the West was one, or something like that.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:55.200
It was like three different vignettes in the movie, and um, and so anyway, we went, I was enthralled with the whole thing, and so we got in the car and I was like, I love that was so great.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:25:02.880
My mom said, Okay, but Julie, you can't tell anybody at church that we went to a movie, you have to not tell anybody.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:04.319
So, what did I do?
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:13.519
Next day, we're at Sunday school, and I told my whole Sunday school class, we went to the movies because everybody knows Julie Zine can't keep a secret.
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.839
I don't know what mother was thinking, but you know, but why were we keeping it a secret?
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.400
Because it was a cultural thing.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.400
There's these are things you can't do.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.359
We have decided that those things are bad.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.559
And my parents were godly people and loved God and you know, very faithful at our church.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:39.920
So to hear that we went to the movies, you know, we're not supposed to be ostracized or anything, but you know, but that was kind of the culture, you know, do it, but don't tell.
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.960
And you know, it's this transparency that's lacking.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:50.720
We're all trying to fit into a mold or a mat, put a same mask on, and nobody's perfect.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:55.519
We all have differences in how we live and how you know how we want to be.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:22.720
And so, you know, to have this cultural expectation, and of course, they always had a verse for that, you know, but you know, you just have to say, this isn't what life in Christ is about, it's not following your rule book, you know, it's it's loving him and and uh and and knowing his word and knowing him personally, and and um if if if you get that it you know, you know, flee from all appearance of evil.
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:30.640
I heard that a lot, and you know, and I'm thinking, well, I don't think it was really evil that was what was going on, but again, cultural.
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:36.079
I think a lot of people would say if we were just a church in the 50s, everything would be fine again.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.640
Ask our friends of color if that sounds like a good time, yeah.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.799
You know, just to start, yeah.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.680
Right, right, you know, and and and you know what is it?
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:47.839
We're all following the societal norm.
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.200
If it's Sunday, you go to church if you're a good person.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:57.759
And so how many of them really believed in Christ, how many of them really were choosing him, I don't know.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.119
Yeah, no, we're supposed to show up there because we're not good people, right?
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.000
Like because we're forgiven people.
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:05.119
That's why we're supposed to be able to do that.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:08.720
Well, it would take yeah, take five minutes in a room with me to know that.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.359
Maybe ten, maybe ten.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:14.640
Okay, if I'm looking.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:25.119
There's a big there's a big um switch and pendulum swing now where many people, especially men, are moving to the Orthodox Church.
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:32.480
They're leaving evangelicalism and going to the Orthodox Church because there is um they know what to expect.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:41.200
They know, you know, this is the oldest faith, you know, faith in in history, whatever they want to say.
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.400
They're the what is it?
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:54.079
My son's church says, they're the true church, they're the true church, but they know what to expect, they know what to do, you know, and it feels good for them because they feel like they're part of something greater.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:55.279
This is what my son says.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:03.599
We feel like we're part of a bigger body and not just um doing these slap happy program stuff.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:15.920
We are you know going out and reaching out to others and you know, not just inviting them to church, it's not about come to church, come to church, it's about us going to them, and they feel like they have a purpose.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:25.119
And I don't know if our evangelical church is doing that right now, and so many people are leaving to find something else.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:37.599
And I was thinking many of our churches look at us, look how shiny, look how great our worship team is, look at this, look, look, look, come, come.
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:45.200
And I'm more I'm more worried that if they're worried about a crown than a towel, are we serving people?
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.519
Are we trying to wear the crown?
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:54.960
And I see that a lot with churches around me, that they're wearing the crown but forgetting about the towel.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:58.559
And that is really concerning me in the Western church right now.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.200
Yeah.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:10.480
Well, I think that that sense of, you know, the truth is that you are a part of something greater, that the family of God is something greater, and it is something, it's not something that depends on you.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.319
It all depends on the Lord.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:18.720
That's what like one of my pet peeves is always when people go, Well, we have to have young families because children are the future of the church.
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:19.680
No, they're not.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.119
Jesus is the future of the church, always has been, always will be.
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:34.079
Like you could have a church grow with gray-haired people coming to life for the first time in the Lord, and more and more gray-haired people come, and more and more like that, you know.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.279
So, yes, of course, I want children to come to the Lord.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:43.200
I came to the Lord as a child, but like we we've lost the plot in a lot of churches.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:49.039
So, like the churches that are communicating that this is about God, not about you.
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:56.240
This is about, you know, the truth doesn't change just because you don't like it, or you know, like there's really powerful truth here.
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:09.920
And yes, our role is to serve people and to not hoard this truth to ourselves and not not to perpetuate our building and our staff and um you know, and be, and that's what we major on.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:17.920
So, you know, I think and I think there are, you know, to anybody who's listening, you know, you may be sitting in a church that's really doing it well.
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.119
And I think and there are churches who are doing it well.
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:37.119
Often they're not huge, you know, like you know, they're often, you know, because for a lot of different reasons, but um, but like so there are churches, I believe, that we that don't make the news, we don't talk about, you know, them.
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:42.799
I know that the Seventh day Baptist Church, uh, you know, near near us, there are a couple of them.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:31:03.200
They, you know, they worship, they they do life together, they have they enjoy a meal together every, you know, every time they meet for worship, then they and they eat and they, you know, like they take discipleship seriously, you know, like they're not about programs, they're about like the Lord and so you know, they serve the community, look for opportunities to serve.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:04.720
There's some really good things happening.
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:06.400
Our church the same.
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.759
So there are, you know, there are churches that do things.
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:22.079
So and you know, you all, you know, you all are uh are involved in places that are seeking to do this too, but it doesn't it doesn't make the headlines and it's not the majority, I don't think.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:50.480
You know, Paul talks about kind of the main purpose besides you know representing Christ to the world, and you know, but he talks about as in the church itself, in the body, the the the um goal is to grow people into spiritual maturity, and you know the the problem with not being close with a bunch of Christians is um you don't you don't have any examples, you don't have any encouragement to move toward that end.
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:56.240
And so if you're immature, then you know you can't even handle the bigger truths.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:09.279
And you know, I I can remember when I was first writing my book on on purpose, it was called is called, and um, and I was talking about um you know the women and all the verses that you know talk about women's role in the church.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:18.640
And so anyway, um I I had so many people say to me, Well, isn't there a verse somewhere that says blah blah blah?
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:21.680
And you gotta do better than that.
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:31.039
A verse somewhere, and then they misquote it and they ignore the context, you know, but you know, I don't even know how to, I don't even know where to start with it.
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:46.319
But maturity, you know, and maturity in how they act, you know, if you're you're you're you're you're not easily offended, you're patient, you're you know, not keeping a track uh track of wrongs, um, all the things that that love talk Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 13.
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:53.039
You can see it in people when they've reached the point of maturity where they're conducting themselves in those kinds of ways.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.960
And so that's the goal is to bring everyone to maturity.
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:04.400
Um, and so that's where I'm always praying toward with our people, just you know, help us, Lord.
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:04.960
What do we do?
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.960
What do we do to help them move toward a maturity or us all really?
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:15.759
I guess we're all moving toward it, but um, you know, you just that's that's a goal.
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:23.519
And so just being passive somewhere and you know, facing the crowd, you'll never reach that goal of maturity.
00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:36.640
It's gonna take one-on-one times, investment in each other's lives, everyone using their gift to encourage and build up, and uh a thing happens there, that synergy that brings people along toward that road.
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:37.359
Yeah.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:53.839
I do think within the context of church life, of you know, the body, the life of the body, there is a place for conversations about, you know, there are times when you're gonna say to some, you know, someone might you're gonna say to someone, hey, I haven't seen you.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.839
Like showing up is important.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:07.119
So showing up with the people of the Lord, whatever, you know, like your community, what that looks like in your community, is important.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:17.039
It's not like a check off, like, oh, you missed one Sunday, or you know, there's certainly Sundays or you know, weekends when I'm just like, I cannot face people.
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.199
I'm exhausted, I can't do it.
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:25.440
And, you know, it's always a push-pull when I it's not like an easy like I'm just staying home.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:33.440
I always think like, oh, like I hate missing the message, I hate not seeing people, I know that it matters if I'm not there.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:39.360
Um, but I you know, I don't beat myself up if I need a Sunday because I'm exhausted.
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:51.360
But if someone's complaining or someone's, you know, like I don't, um, I my prayers are never answered, or I don't see, you know, this or that, or you know, like it is gonna be part of the conversation.
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.639
Well, you don't show up very often with the body.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:57.599
We don't see, you know, and that's not about attendance.
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:17.280
That is about making yourself part, uh availing yourself of the body of Christ and participation and you know, so but immature people are gonna walk out and say, like, oh, oh, you know, I went for help and they just talked about me not showing, you know, me my attendance record.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:20.480
You know, like so, like that, you know, there's that too.
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:22.719
Like that we have to be careful.
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:31.360
I think about the way people, immature people or disgruntled people talk about their experience of faith.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:39.440
There are certainly there's plenty of legitimate false teachers and hurtfulness and that happens.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:57.199
But there's also a fair amount of people who don't get it, haven't gotten it, should we're showing up at church, missed Jesus all along the way, and they're talking about their experience, like it's you know, I don't know, the last word on things too.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:00.880
Um, all right.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:09.199
So, how do we serve various categories of people for whom attendance, church attendance, or even involvement in a community of believers is challenging.
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:30.960
So, you know, there are people who have been wounded, uh, there are people with special needs with families that I worked with, a lot of families with children, you know, with you know, nonverbal or they're, you know, they're on the spectrum, they have they have really severe mental health challenges, um, or even just families, you know, single moms with four little kids.
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:32.400
It's challenging for them.
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:37.519
Sometimes people with physical conditions um that make it hard for them to leave home.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:43.039
Some people have agoraphobia, some people are real, you know, they don't have a way out.
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:51.679
So, what are some of the things that the church can do or um is doing in many places to help with that?
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.599
Yeah, that's that's a tough one.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:37:01.199
Um, because you don't, if they don't come to the church service and say, Hey, I have this issue, you don't know.
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:02.159
Right, you know.
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:09.599
So if I think if someone has that issue, maybe call and say, Hey, is there someone that can come to me?
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:13.039
And I think we should make that available to people.
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:22.239
There is a big church here in this area that does excellent work with people with special needs, amazing work, and they're set up for that, they can do that.
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:30.800
Not all small churches are capable of that, so they're doing amazing work with special needs people, but you know, not everybody can.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:36.480
But I think we need to be open as people and say, okay, I have agoraphobia, I have this, I have that.
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.599
How can I be a part of this?
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.679
Call someone and say, Can you come to me?
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:52.079
Can and we need to be willing to do that and be have our eyes open and look for those kind of people and not just say, Hey, come to church.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.119
Hey, how let's be the church and go to them.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:56.400
What do you need?
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:01.679
And those smaller group settings are much, much better for those kind of things.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:02.719
Yeah.
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:12.320
We had a local church that had a service that was designed for families with kids on the spectrum that was like low stimulation and you know, they would have low lights.
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:13.679
It was very predictable.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:24.719
It was, you know, the and there was the people who went knew that there'd be children, maybe some might have outbursts or something, and and everybody was very committed to being supportive of families.
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:33.519
And so I, you know, I I really appreciated their um that they existed and that they were focused on that community.
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:36.239
Yep.
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:51.360
Yeah, I mean, they are not their disabilities, they're people that God loves and Jesus died for that have something that's you know an obstacle toward being involved, toward, you know, getting benefit from a church.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:01.039
And so if we start there, you know, and and think, okay, well, if if this is an obstacle, what what can we do to you know change that it is?
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:25.440
I friend, I think of my friend and Julie, she was uh a um uh just a person in the body um at a church in California, and they had a lot of immigrant workers and and um and all coming to the church, but she could see that English was not their first language, and you know, one of the pre people told they just talk so fast I can't translate in my head fast enough.
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:30.480
And boy, I give a lot of credit to people who are learning a second language because I'm terrible at it.
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:46.719
But um, so she thought, well, I'm fluent in Spanish, so she started, she got in contact and got in place a thing where they, as the speaker spoke, she translated and they just wore headphones, and so she didn't know if it was making any difference or not.
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:52.639
It ended up being like four translators as the church grew, and it was a very exciting ministry to see that happening.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:40:10.880
But she ended up leaving for various reasons, and um, in about I don't know, 10 years she went back and um and she heard that there was a whole Spanish-speaking church that met after the regular church left the building, and so she went, of course, to find out what's going on.
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:18.639
And um, the guy that was leading the service saw her walk in and he introduced her and he said, She's the reason you're all here today.
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:20.559
And she had no idea.
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:23.519
So, but it just, you know, you say, Oh, there's a problem.
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:24.719
What can I do to help?
00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.199
We have somebody that's got some hearing issues.
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.559
She woke up one morning having lost 80% of her hearing.
00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:31.519
Horrible.
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:44.559
And she couldn't, she didn't couldn't get a thing out of church because the you know, the noise that was coming through, and she couldn't, you know, it just was a it was a disaster, and she ended up getting pretty isolated because it was just too painful to go.
00:40:44.800 --> 00:41:04.880
Well, we found a place that you you know you can get this equipment where you can hand them microphones, and we have our own radio system, and we have several if anybody's hard of hearing, and um, and so you know, my husband did his research and he's the sound guy, and he went and and made it happen, and um, and she's back again, right with us, enjoying every bit of it.
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:30.400
So, you know, there's things that can be dealt with, you know, simple things that might, you know, let's get a ramp on the stairs because a wheelchair can't make it up, or you know, there's simple things we can be doing to keep things that are have become obstacles to them, and um, and I think that's our responsibility to do, but you you do with what who you have in your church, and Stacey, you're right, they have to make needs known.
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:35.599
Not that they're nobody demanded us to get a different kind of sound system, you know.
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:41.760
Uh nobody demanded that, but we were aware of the problem, and so we found a way to fix it.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.599
So yeah, what's that Bible verse that says if you're sick, call the elders?
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:46.400
Yeah, James.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:53.039
You gotta let them know they're not right, they have mental telepathy to know everything that's going on.
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:55.840
We we need to let them know, hey, I got this issue.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:58.480
Or I can't leave my house anymore, right?
00:41:58.639 --> 00:41:59.360
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.000
Right, yeah, and so you say, Okay, somebody's gotta go keep them in fellowship, right?
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.280
So I think we learned a lot with COVID.
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:14.960
I was gonna say, I think that COVID blew a lot of this out of the water because we, you know, had to learn to be creative.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:18.639
You know, the Lord is infinitely creative and inventive.
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:29.280
And so when there are challenges, I think that, you know, every church, you know, and I'm sure not every church, some churches probably wriggle their noses or like, uh, why do we have to deal with this?
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:30.800
You know, bad on them.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:37.599
Like, I think that like we should like look at things and go, all right, well, all right, how can we how can we support this person?
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:48.239
You know, we have someone who works a third shift and she'd been coming very regularly, but she's got to be, you know, like third shift makes it really hard for her to do that.
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:56.559
And so, you know, when she does show up, we make sure that we connect with her, that she knows she's loved, you know, like this, you know, we reach out to her when we can.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:02.159
We don't diss her for like, man, you don't show up for months at a time, and then yeah, like we're like, yeah, you're here.
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:09.519
You know, so I think that there we just need to be the church has you know access to creativity that created the world.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.079
We got you know, we got stuff we can work with.
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:12.960
All right.
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:20.800
So we've been chatting about this, and now I want to finish us up with what are we reading or recommending this week?
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.400
Anyone got something that you got to share?
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.239
What are you what are you reading or recommending?
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:33.280
I have two books from two amazing writers that I want to recommend.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.840
One is God's above Lori Roll.
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:39.679
Read that.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.320
And then this one, what's it called?
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:44.960
Unexpected Love by Julie Zine Coleman.
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:48.400
You can see that I went through and lots of notes and taught from it.
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:56.159
And then she also has a book on purpose that I can't find on my shelves that I think I lent out to somebody that they need to give back to me soon.
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.840
So um anything from these two rockers.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.199
Writers, Lori Roavelt or Julie Zine Coleman, read.
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:08.400
Oh, oh, um, Running from a Crazy Man by Laurie Roavelt.
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:09.119
Oh my gosh.
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:09.519
Read it.
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:10.960
Yeah.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:12.159
Read it.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:13.039
So good.
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:14.559
Cheeseburger Jesus.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:15.599
Love him.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:19.199
Very good.
00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:25.280
I am reading this week 25 Keys to Life Changing Prayer by Terry Glasby.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:30.559
I don't know how important it is that you see the cover, but very tiny book.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:42.559
But um I, you know, I always need more, like I like I almost always have something going on prayer because it's I'm always trying to learn better how to communicate with the Lord.
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.400
So um very um, very nice, very foundational.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:51.039
Like it's not um like, ooh, here's a magic prayer that will give you everything you need.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.719
This is very foundational, very grounded.
00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:04.480
So I forgot to pull mine from the shelf, but um you know, you there's certain books you you read and you're done, and you can donate them later on.
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:08.960
Um, if we kept every book we read in this house, we that's all we would have in our house.
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:11.920
I just gave away like six boxes of books.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:16.559
Right, but there are some books that you do keep because they're resources for you.
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:24.880
And um, I found that um it's called Bringing Home the Prodigal, and it's by Rob Pierce Pearson, I think his last name is.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:28.719
And um, that was such an eye-opening book for me.
00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:36.159
Um uh I was a parent of teens as I was reading it, and you know, that's it can be a very challenging time in a parent's life.
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:55.360
We actually have a good experience with our teenagers, but um, I think partially because of this book, but um, but he he first he talks about, you know, we as as parents, you know, we want them to be good people, and so we it's it's a lot is based on morality rather on building that relationship with Christ.
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:05.679
And um, and he said that there's they're you're loading their book pack backpacks with rocks, and so pretty soon they can carry those rocks around for a while, but eventually they're gonna drop them.
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:14.880
He said, We are creating prodigals with how we handle the word of God, with how we um, you know, work with the kids to bring them to maturity.
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:17.119
And it's it I found it to be so true.
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:34.480
If if you're a parent of books, I think every teacher, number one, needs to read that book, and then again, um, every parent should because it's just it's just opening your eyes to what God values and how to deal with people with it's principles there that are just really great.
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:35.119
That's great.
00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:36.639
What was the title again?
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:39.199
Bringing home the prodigal.
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:41.280
Okay, love it.
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:51.519
Yeah, I used to see I used to tell my kids like I can teach you how to look like a Christian, but only you and the Lord can make you a Christian.
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:54.000
And so, like, you gotta figure that out.
00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:55.360
That's your job here.
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:59.039
So I will I'll teach you, I'll show you where he is.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.000
But sometimes we put the cart before the horse.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:05.199
Yeah, uh, there was a book in the 70s really popular that I loved.
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.079
It's called How to Be a Christian Without Being Religious.
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:10.079
And um, and he did that.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:12.159
He said, This is this is the cart before the horse.
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.360
If you're making rule following your number one thing, you'll fail.
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:21.519
But if you make your life about Christ and centered on him and what he's done for you, that's the horse.
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.559
That's the thing that you know should be driving us.
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:28.639
And if we if we make it about rules, it it's not going to end well.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:30.719
So very good book, too, by the way.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:33.599
I can't think of the author, but cool.
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:34.320
All right.
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.320
Well, thank you, ladies, and um, I'm glad you showed up here.
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.840
Like I'm always happy when we show up together.
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:43.440
So thank you all.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:44.400
All right.
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:49.360
You've been listening to Three Chicks and a Bible.
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:50.639
Don't stop now.
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.559
Keep asking the hard question.
00:47:52.719 --> 00:48:01.679
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00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.800
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00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.000
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