Ep. 204: Utilizing Psychedelics In The Grieving Process To Heal (feat. Mia Cosco)

WEBVTT
00:00:19.653 --> 00:00:20.033
Thank you.
00:00:20.033 --> 00:00:25.640
Medicines and the impact they've made among the countless psychonauts exploring the last true frontier.
00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:38.601
Buy a ticket and take the ride with me as we get true first-hand accounts of the experiences, benefits, risks and transformations taking place within the ever-expanding world of psychedelic medicines.
00:00:38.601 --> 00:00:41.548
On this One Time, on Psychedelics.
00:00:41.548 --> 00:00:50.572
One of the areas within the psychedelic space that is extremely important yet often overlooked, is the ability for these medicines to assist in the process of grief.
00:00:50.572 --> 00:01:09.774
Grief is something that all of us, no matter what background, ethnicity or age group, go through from time to time and, this being said, grief is also one of the main challenges that many of us have never learned how to deal with and, as a result, the opportunity therein for psychedelics to support in this process is huge.
00:01:09.774 --> 00:01:27.090
Now, today's guest on the show is a woman who has made it her mission to decouple the process of bringing psychedelics into grief work through her grief methodology and has supported countless individuals in learning how to move through their grief, to allow it to propel them further into life rather than hold them back.
00:01:27.090 --> 00:01:38.632
Now, in this episode, we dive into how this journey was started for her through her own grieving process, the experiences she's had along the way that showed her the power of combining psychedelics with grief, work and much, much more.
00:01:38.632 --> 00:01:42.530
So please help me and welcome my friend Mia Cosco to the show.
00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:45.989
Mia, I am so excited to be here with you today.
00:01:45.989 --> 00:01:56.420
You know, as I said in the intro, we met through a mutual friend and Adam, who's also been on the show, and it's been so amazing getting to know you and just finding other community here in Boston.
00:01:56.420 --> 00:02:10.885
That's one thing that I'm selfishly very excited about, you know, because we were talking on our intro call about how you know, Boston does have a really good scene for psychedelic medicines and they do a lot of good stuff, but it's not as out there as like, say, Austin is.
00:02:10.885 --> 00:02:15.013
You know it's not everyone's not wearing it as like a you know a badge, you know.
00:02:15.013 --> 00:02:16.314
So you kind of got to go look for it.
00:02:16.314 --> 00:02:23.014
But before we dive into psychedelic salons and everything you're doing for the community in Boston, I want to start with some context.
00:02:23.014 --> 00:02:26.223
How did Mia get interested in psychedelic medicines?
00:02:26.223 --> 00:02:31.020
Was this something that she thought of or was interested in earlier in her life?
00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:33.826
Was she a dare kid and then got into it later?
00:02:33.826 --> 00:02:35.771
How did that journey unfold for you?
00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:41.050
Yeah, well, obviously that's a really long story enough for a book which I'm writing.
00:02:41.050 --> 00:02:58.772
But it pretty much started with a fundamental curiosity for mental health and what that is, and the internal experience, Because I was a pretty happy kid up until age seven when my mother's health took a turn for the worst, and her mental health specifically.
00:02:58.772 --> 00:03:07.640
So she passed away when I was very young and my father raised me and I went into study psychology with no wonder why.
00:03:07.640 --> 00:03:22.885
And then, when I was studying psychology, I got very curious about antidepressants because I knew my mother took antidepressants and in trying to uncover more information about her I thought, okay, let me learn what she was trying to do to heal.
00:03:24.008 --> 00:03:49.961
And in that I not only uncovered more about myself and I, like found I found ways to work on myself and my own sorts of struggles in life which were similar to hers, but thankfully I am not diagnosed with depression, but like any human, I have troubles with fears and challenges and constraints and expectations.
00:03:49.961 --> 00:04:09.182
And in that I uncovered that antidepressants were falling really short of what they were intended to do and psychedelic assisted therapy and medicine was finding a home with people who had PTSD, depression, anxiety, alcoholism.
00:04:09.182 --> 00:04:21.182
And I thought, okay, if I'm seeing astronomical results with psychedelic assisted therapy but not with antidepressants, then there's something deeply wrong with our health system.
00:04:21.182 --> 00:04:28.665
And is it really helping people be healthy or is it helping people stay addicted and keeping certain companies profitable?
00:04:28.665 --> 00:04:38.552
So that's really where my passion was ignited, and then it's been 10 years since that kind of realization and awakening.
00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:40.502
Wow, that's so amazing.
00:04:40.502 --> 00:04:43.851
You know there's so many through lines to both of our stories.
00:04:43.851 --> 00:04:46.062
You know we both went to school for psychology.
00:04:46.502 --> 00:04:46.764
Yeah.
00:04:47.004 --> 00:05:04.872
I went there specifically because when I had gone through my you know bout of anxiety, which, again, we always, you know, I've never met anyone that's like Nope, I've never once been even a little bit anxious, right, like who even knows how many of these very normal things in the human experience are now classified as illnesses, diseases etc.
00:05:04.872 --> 00:05:12.305
And we know that some people face it much more than others, right, so they might have like a exponential experience of it.
00:05:12.305 --> 00:05:19.533
But I think these states like depression, anxiety, things like that are very normal in a way for a lot of people.
00:05:19.533 --> 00:05:21.300
They can, of course, be abnormal as well.
00:05:21.300 --> 00:05:31.502
But I think one of the challenges is, like, for me, when I first got diagnosed, you know, I wasn't aware of, like, what stories that would create, you know, belief systems etc.
00:05:31.502 --> 00:05:53.446
And so for me, when I got into school for psychology, I was fascinated to be like what the fuck just happened to me, you know, and so, like, once I was able to move through that and found psychedelics, cannabis specifically, first, just like you said, it just worked better, it was more efficient, you know, and so it's really cool how, you know, the mother of all invention is necessity, right?
00:05:53.446 --> 00:05:56.302
And at the end of the day we didn't invent psychedelics.
00:05:56.302 --> 00:06:00.740
But you know, in a way there's been a big resurgence over, let's just say, the last hundred years.
00:06:01.101 --> 00:06:20.923
This is kind of the second wave of it, and I'm really excited for the second wave because I feel like it's a little bit more responsible, which you know again, like I'm not here to make rules for anyone, but if we do want this to be taken, not even seriously, but intentionally, then I think it makes sense to not just like slam it, as Terrence McKenna said, you know, like grateful for his input in this world.
00:06:20.923 --> 00:06:29.992
But I think if we want to see this, you know, hit a lot of people, we're going to need some kind of classifications, some kinds of methodologies, things like that that we're seeing now.
00:06:29.992 --> 00:06:32.375
So it's a really cool time to be alive.
00:06:32.375 --> 00:06:40.805
And you know, I'm curious for you, like you know, when you first found psychedelics and you had your first experience, I'd love to hear, like what that experience was for you.
00:06:40.845 --> 00:06:42.026
Was it like a microdose?
00:06:42.026 --> 00:06:43.908
Was it a more of a macrodose?
00:06:43.908 --> 00:06:50.982
You know, what was kind of the journey of you discovering, like wow, okay, like I can see in the literature that these are working really well.
00:06:50.982 --> 00:06:54.961
But now I just had an experience that showed me that these have a lot of potential.
00:06:54.961 --> 00:06:55.805
What was that like for you?
00:06:56.127 --> 00:06:57.172
Yeah, good question.
00:06:57.172 --> 00:07:07.017
That was euphorically during my first ever experience so with psilocybin and I remember I had like been gifted psilocybin.
00:07:07.017 --> 00:07:25.608
I'm usually been gifted psychedelics in my life, like it's the West coast, right, so psychedelics in the West coast and it was from a I was from actually, a colleague of my father's who like knew that I was interested in psychedelics and he was like do not tell your father but, I'm gifting you.
00:07:26.249 --> 00:07:35.420
And I was like I eventually did tell my father and he was like I'm totally okay with that, mia, because you're a responsible human taking these substances.
00:07:35.420 --> 00:07:38.528
And I thought, oh okay, that's quite nice of him.
00:07:38.528 --> 00:08:13.711
But I was when I sat down with the psilocybin and it was like at on was on a mountaintop in Vancouver, mount Seymour specifically, very well known for like snowshoeing, skiing, snowboarding, all that but I just wanted to be in nature, of course, and I was with my sitter, slash, my boyfriend at the time, and we measured it on a scale and I had like music ready, like books, I liked my laptop with a slideshow of images that I liked for the.
00:08:13.752 --> 00:08:14.434
PowerPoint.
00:08:14.434 --> 00:08:31.730
I'd created my journal, of course, and uh, and I had a change of clothes just in case I like got too sweaty or something, and I'm I'm weighing the mushrooms on like a scale and I was like, oh, and he's like what?
00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:34.663
And I was like it's only like a little over a gram.
00:08:34.663 --> 00:08:37.630
He's like that's great, this is your first time.
00:08:37.630 --> 00:08:41.525
And I thought, but, like you know, I was looking for something.
00:08:41.525 --> 00:08:45.653
Really, you know, I wanted the gift to be like two or three grams at least.
00:08:45.653 --> 00:08:48.369
And he's like, yeah, this is your first time.
00:08:48.369 --> 00:08:50.206
Like don't get greedy now.
00:08:50.379 --> 00:08:54.145
You're not even you're not even starting, you're just being fun.
00:08:54.900 --> 00:08:56.927
And so I thought, okay, you're right.
00:08:56.927 --> 00:09:03.561
Okay, Cause I had read too much on Erowid and Trumeree not to get all excited about what the dosage could entail.
00:09:03.561 --> 00:09:16.493
But yeah, looking back 10 years ago, it was an incredible journey and I had a fond appreciation for disco music at the time.
00:09:16.493 --> 00:09:25.248
I went to go eat at my favorite restaurant later in the day and experienced it never before my favorite dish.
00:09:25.248 --> 00:09:27.673
So everything was like the same.
00:09:27.734 --> 00:09:40.272
But I was completely different and having a completely euphoric experience and I immediately thought, as I'm putting on my parka, I put on my parka backwards, so I put my parka on the front of my body and just like put my face in my hood.
00:09:40.272 --> 00:09:42.826
Um, because I was like what will this feel like?
00:09:42.826 --> 00:09:44.591
Cause it was all coffee in there.
00:09:44.591 --> 00:09:45.861
So I do that.
00:09:45.861 --> 00:10:04.326
And then I think everyone needs to try this medicine because even though I'm just having a light silly time and I've, like experienced cannabis and I know there's light silly times there are people out there who have never had a light silly time and I was like playfulness, lightheartedness, this is medicine.
00:10:04.326 --> 00:10:05.149
Laughter is medicine.
00:10:05.149 --> 00:10:05.811
We know this.
00:10:05.811 --> 00:10:09.330
So why don't we get serious about being silly?
00:11:10.182 --> 00:11:11.286
I say that all the time.
00:11:11.286 --> 00:11:14.969
It's so funny, you know, there's so many through lines between how we think and how we be.
00:11:15.581 --> 00:11:19.940
But, yeah, I say all the time, like that quote, that life is far too serious to ever be taken seriously.
00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:29.781
Like that's one of my favorite quotes of all time because it perfectly captures like how I feel about life.
00:11:29.781 --> 00:11:34.032
Like I do think that there is a degree of intention or passion that we can have and have like a really, you know, beautiful relationship to life in that way.
00:11:34.032 --> 00:11:42.844
But yeah, like the adulteration you know getting adulterated I call it is such a undiagnosed disease in our culture.
00:11:42.844 --> 00:11:52.365
In my opinion, and I think that's in my opinion, like one of the best things psychedelics do is just take you out of that entire paradigm that you don't even know you're in.
00:11:52.365 --> 00:12:06.832
Like that's the thing with these things is that like they're slow burns, you know, like we remember when we were kids and maybe we watched shows or we were silly or whatever, and for me, like it was hard to pinpoint when life started getting more serious.
00:12:06.832 --> 00:12:11.128
You know, and all I knew is the first time I did specifically psilocybin.
00:12:11.128 --> 00:12:23.605
It undid a lot of that and it allowed me to see like, wow, I have been so pent up, so like tightly wound, and now I just eat a gram, because that was my first dose too and I just laughed all night.
00:12:23.605 --> 00:12:27.512
I also ate four sleeves of Oreos, which I would not recommend zero out of 10.
00:12:27.512 --> 00:12:30.787
Worst thing in the world to have a stomach ache like that when you're on mushrooms.
00:12:30.787 --> 00:12:31.913
But I didn't know.
00:12:31.913 --> 00:12:33.098
I learned that time.
00:12:33.098 --> 00:12:40.483
That was when I was like 20 years old, when I was just starting to realize that high quality food versus low quality food there's a big difference there.
00:12:40.483 --> 00:12:49.879
But yeah, it is so amazing how those things just allow you to drop all the seriousness and allow you to experience things as if they're the first time again.
00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:58.670
Because it's almost like if we've seen one tree, maybe it's our reticular activating system, maybe it's just our collection of parts or ego, whatever.
00:12:58.670 --> 00:13:09.812
But you know, I don't think it'd even be useful to like look at every tree as if we've never seen a tree before, right, but we kind of forget how fun it is to look at a tree like we've never seen a tree before.
00:13:09.812 --> 00:13:21.706
So it like allows you to kind of go back to what it was like being a kid, like, yeah, I've seen a million trees but not this one and I've never felt this bark before, you know, and it kind of reminds you of the beauty of everyday life reminds you of the beauty of everyday life.
00:13:21.706 --> 00:13:22.668
So I'm right there with you on it.
00:13:22.668 --> 00:13:31.422
It's so fascinating, it's really cool.
00:13:31.422 --> 00:13:31.603
You know.
00:13:31.623 --> 00:13:33.331
What's interesting too is you're mentioning, you know, utilizing psychedelics in nature.
00:13:33.331 --> 00:13:36.783
I'm just curious and this is like there's no right or wrong answer to this I'm just curious, your opinion here.
00:13:36.783 --> 00:13:42.345
But why do you think that nature is so healing, especially just in general, but also with psychedelics Like?
00:13:42.345 --> 00:13:48.863
Why do you think so many people just intuitively feel like when they're going to take psychedelics, like, ooh, I want to be a nature for this?
00:13:48.863 --> 00:13:51.271
I'm curious to hear your, your theory on this.
00:13:52.260 --> 00:13:53.908
I think, because we can count on it.
00:13:53.908 --> 00:14:11.616
Like it's like, nature has been around since before we existed and has continued to exist, and we'll, you know, and if we wipe ourselves out with AI or whatever, I'm not going to go into conspiracy theories here, but, um, nature will be around after us, you know.
00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:13.527
So that's the hope, honestly.
00:14:13.527 --> 00:14:19.331
That's the hope Like, and there's something so beautiful in that because we humans will say, like forever.
00:14:19.331 --> 00:14:29.652
We'll say forever in wedding vows, like an official professional ceremonies, and that's forever, like we're not even going to be around forever, like what a word.
00:14:29.652 --> 00:14:35.973
But nature has been around since before we were here and I'm pretty sure we'll be around after we, we all leave.
00:14:35.973 --> 00:14:43.681
So, um, there's just something kind of, there's something grounding in that, for sure, to say the least yeah, it's kind of like.
00:14:43.760 --> 00:14:51.311
if, uh, nature had a slogan, it would probably be what Motel 6's slogan is Like we'll leave the light on for you, as if they've been there the whole time, you know.
00:14:51.311 --> 00:14:53.524
But I totally agree with that.
00:14:53.524 --> 00:15:03.111
You know that it is kind of funny how we say those things like forever or like to infinity, and it's like I can laugh at it because I use those terminologies.
00:15:03.111 --> 00:15:10.466
But at the same time I realized that, like, the human mind cannot even comprehend infinity.
00:15:10.466 --> 00:15:18.968
Like you know, for anyone who's taken, like you know, higher doses of mushrooms, the first like, especially if you're drinking the tea, the first like hour and a half, two hours, is you like, just like getting squeegeed.
00:15:18.968 --> 00:15:19.710
It feels like.
00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:25.740
I feel like that is the closest we can get to understanding what infinity or forever feels like.
00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:31.122
And that's why, at least for me, when I'm in those kind of experiences, I don't remember shit from it.
00:15:31.122 --> 00:15:33.090
All I remember is dude, it was wild.
00:15:33.090 --> 00:15:37.947
Because like it's beyond comprehension for what our limited experience of life is meant to be.
00:15:38.167 --> 00:15:39.771
You know, because I think we are meant to.
00:15:39.771 --> 00:15:58.565
You know, if we look at our true nature as being infinite, right, which is what I choose to believe, like most sacred texts say, and we're experiencing a reality in which we are finite, then in a way, we're kind of here to experience everything we're not, you know, or we get the ability to experience everything we're not.
00:15:58.565 --> 00:16:15.485
And I got to think if God or source, flying spaghetti monster, whatever you want to call it, you know, created all of this and was infinite Eventually, if we are made in the likeness of that God or creator Well, I know I get curious, I know I get bored.
00:16:15.485 --> 00:16:20.865
So I imagine that being was like what if there wasn't everything?
00:16:20.865 --> 00:16:22.048
What if I wasn't God?
00:16:22.048 --> 00:16:23.091
What if there was separate?
00:16:23.091 --> 00:16:25.526
What if there was the complete opposite of everything?
00:16:25.526 --> 00:16:36.110
That is reality and I think that's what we're in here, and I think psychedelics have an ability to show you the last page of the book and show you like, oh shit, we're meant to be one Holy shit.
00:16:36.129 --> 00:16:44.644
Then you come back you're like what does that do for this experience?
00:16:44.644 --> 00:16:44.826
You know?
00:16:44.826 --> 00:16:46.991
Just really interesting to think about.
00:16:46.991 --> 00:16:52.344
Yeah, I think nature also does that too, like kind of like encouraging a response, that like like we are one, there is oneness, you know.
00:16:52.484 --> 00:17:21.185
And I think I think also too like I will say that as a millennial, for me eco-psychology is very different from my parents' generation and will probably be different from future generations on the planet, because I grew up being very well aware of climate change and accepting that and not really questioning that climate change occurs, and so there is this sort of scarcity and there's this fear that we are losing nature and our connection to nature.
00:17:21.185 --> 00:17:46.647
I became, I'm very keenly aware personally, of deforestation, the Amazon, rainforest, the lungs of our planet, and there is this, there is this fear among millennials, like if we don't do something, if we don't act in little ways and perhaps big ways, we don't come together, then we are threatening the planet in which we live on, like the call is coming from inside the house.
00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:48.499
Yeah, 100%.
00:17:48.499 --> 00:17:55.472
I mean, it makes perfect sense to me too, because whether or not it's a natural thing, that's kind of like the thing I hear on the other side.
00:17:55.472 --> 00:17:56.273
It's like this is natural.
00:17:56.273 --> 00:18:16.550
It's like, well, I don't think it's meant to happen this fast, you know, like, yes, I'm sure the planet goes through warming and cooling cycles, right, I mean, if we do right, if I go through like anger to peace, then of course right, we could capitulate that onto the planet and say, yeah, if we're made in the likeness of everything that is, then yeah, everything's going to go through ups and downs, hot and cold, whatever.
00:18:16.731 --> 00:18:19.144
But what do we know about our own life?
00:18:19.144 --> 00:18:34.043
Right, like, if we're taking a lot of stimulants, for instance, we can create more heat than is natural, even though heat is natural, right, but an excess of heat is not natural and excess of coal is not natural, or at least maybe the speed that it gets there is not natural.
00:18:34.043 --> 00:18:40.392
Because I guess we could have a fever, let's say, right, but you know, I don't know if there's a natural way to get a fever.
00:18:40.392 --> 00:18:51.201
I'm trying to make sure this analogy makes sense, but there's definitely ways of like, hey, you're sick, let me go hang out with you and get a fever right, like I think that's kind of what has been happening on the planet and who knows in what ways.
00:18:51.201 --> 00:18:54.125
Right, like you know, some people say it's cows.
00:18:54.125 --> 00:18:59.315
Right, I think it's the mega corporations that are burning insane shit.
00:18:59.315 --> 00:19:01.007
I mean, think about it this way too.
00:19:01.007 --> 00:19:16.151
There's just so many things that we're not even aware of that are happening, because here we are in Boston, right, and even though we're very plugged into the world, the stories we get on the news not that we watch them anyway, but the stories we get there are not the objective truth.
00:19:16.151 --> 00:19:18.345
There's someone's subjective view of what's happening.
00:19:18.345 --> 00:19:20.710
So it's like all these thirst traps happening.
00:19:20.710 --> 00:19:24.967
But at the same time, you know, the same way, that how we do anything is how we do everything.
00:19:25.808 --> 00:19:39.084
I think, for me, all we really need to do is get silent enough to be able to connect with Mother Earth and realize like, yeah, she's going through something rough right now and for anyone, that's done like a psychedelic, like a big psychedelic experience.
00:19:39.084 --> 00:19:51.530
At least for me, and I've talked to a lot of people about this I don't know if it happens for everyone, but there is a place you can get to where you can connect directly with the mother, the mother earth, and you can kind of tune into that energy.
00:19:51.530 --> 00:19:53.103
You know, paul talks about that a lot.
00:19:53.103 --> 00:19:59.967
Paul check of just like sitting near a tree on psychedelics and just tapping into the tree and feeling all the emotions and everything going on.
00:19:59.967 --> 00:20:02.201
It's pretty trippy for sure, you know.
00:20:02.201 --> 00:20:05.731
But yeah, I totally agree Because you know we heard a lot about it.
00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:07.165
You know, in school especially, I think.
00:20:07.165 --> 00:20:08.170
Who is it?
00:20:08.170 --> 00:20:09.757
Al Gore making a big case for that?
00:20:09.757 --> 00:20:22.426
Back of way back in the day, when I was in like elementary school, I remember that was like the big thing, I think, between him and Bush was global warming.
00:20:22.426 --> 00:20:24.676
So ever since then I was probably like 10 years old it's been a constant topic.
00:20:24.676 --> 00:20:27.841
So yeah, it's interesting, so fascinating, yeah.
00:20:27.861 --> 00:20:35.909
But I'm curious for you, mia, like whenever I talk to people regarding psychedelic medicines, one of the questions I like to ask a lot because I'm just genuinely curious is what medicine do you feel like?
00:20:35.909 --> 00:20:37.993
Is your medicine Like?
00:20:37.993 --> 00:20:50.241
I feel like for me I get along with a lot of medicines, but I know cannabis and I like we're like this, you know, like she can smack me around a little bit when I need to be smacked around a little bit, but she does it with a loving hand.
00:20:50.241 --> 00:20:55.232
I, I, I get the downloads, not always as fast as maybe I could, but I do get them.
00:20:55.232 --> 00:20:58.240
I integrate them.
00:20:58.240 --> 00:20:59.284
Psilocybin would probably be a close second.
00:20:59.284 --> 00:21:05.106
But I'm curious for you, like what medicines do you feel really connected with and what about them makes you feel so connected to them?
00:21:05.326 --> 00:21:24.105
Yeah, I feel really connected honestly to um, to LSD probably the most, which is interesting because you know well I don't consider MDMA like a classic psychedelic, I don't think people do but we think that, like MDMA, might be like my choice, but, um, it's actually LSD, because I think it's the way I encountered her.
00:21:24.105 --> 00:21:39.505
If I can personify LSD, Um and it's because, like LSD was actually the first psychedelic I researched, and so there was always like this pedestal of like, oh, when I get to LSD, when I get up the stairway to heaven.
00:21:40.285 --> 00:21:57.400
Um, so, and it's just like when you there, there have been videos that I watched on YouTube of like housewives taking LSD for the first time and their reactions and I just thought they were so beautiful, beautiful.
00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.447
And then I remember talking to my aunt as the first person who really gave me Intel on candid psychedelic experiences.
00:22:00.447 --> 00:22:14.740
She hadn't shared very much before because I asked her and so she answered, thankfully, and she and she was, she was like a mother figure to me growing up and, um, she said to me she was like, yeah, I took LSD for the first time when I was a housewife.
00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:16.027
I was bored and I and I did it with my husband and our friends.
00:22:16.047 --> 00:22:17.312
And it was, I took LSD for the first time when I was a housewife.
00:22:17.312 --> 00:22:23.632
I was bored and I and I did it with my husband and our friends, and it was, I think, the probably the 80s or something probably the 80s.
00:22:23.632 --> 00:22:30.710
And she just like told me how fantastic it was and she was like, yeah, like it was just a silly fun time or whatever.
00:22:30.710 --> 00:22:46.003
She didn't necessarily expand on its like bonding effects or its like ability to heal, but I thought, I thought, um, I thought, okay, it doesn't sound scary, like it doesn't sound like a scary time, you know, contrasting with what I was reading about the MK ultra documents.
00:22:46.003 --> 00:22:50.913
Okay, this isn't, maybe it's not so bad.
00:22:50.913 --> 00:23:05.053
And so eventually, like when I took my first trip, my first journey with psilocybin, I was like a gram, I was a little over a gram, and so the next trip I did was months later and that was five grams.
00:23:07.304 --> 00:23:10.632
So I went I went for a hero does right up like right after.
00:23:10.632 --> 00:23:19.303
But obviously, like I got excited and did it and I think because I had relied on the same source the journey was actually surprisingly mild.
00:23:19.303 --> 00:23:23.822
It wasn't at all intense and so I thought I could easily handle 10 grams.
00:23:23.822 --> 00:23:34.474
So months later I tried 10 grams and that was a different source and that was a much better source and that was like an incredibly popping off experience.
00:23:34.474 --> 00:23:39.223
I wouldn't go through it again but I don't regret it, but I also recommend it.
00:23:39.243 --> 00:23:52.114
I don't need to take that much, but I know that there are some people who are avidly doing DMT and 2CV and ayahuasca on the same day, so I don't understand it.
00:23:52.114 --> 00:23:55.607
But whatever floats your boat.
00:23:55.607 --> 00:24:07.402
So when I did my 10 gram psilocybin experience, I thought okay, um, I got pretty kind of scared off because I was like whoa, I reached maybe the edges of my consciousness.
00:24:07.402 --> 00:24:13.043
I reached a realm of spirituality that, like my little atheist brain, needed to integrate and process.
00:24:13.043 --> 00:24:14.986
So I gave myself that integration time.
00:24:15.547 --> 00:24:22.207
I waited a year um of just processing and like working on myself and working on my life.
00:24:22.207 --> 00:24:28.250
So you need time to work on your life takes time to do the dishes and do the laundry and do the housekeeping like externally and internally.
00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:40.111
So I gave myself that time and then eventually, a year later, after that 10 gram psilocybin experience, I thought you know what I'm actually not going to go to psilocybin for like a reflective, interesting time.
00:24:40.111 --> 00:24:42.143
Now I'm actually going to try LSD.
00:24:42.143 --> 00:24:42.584
I'm going to.
00:24:42.584 --> 00:24:44.087
I feel like I'm ready for LSD.
00:24:44.087 --> 00:24:45.551
Now it's like, yeah, I'm ready.
00:24:45.551 --> 00:24:55.613
So when I tried it for the first time it was like incredible, like everything that I appreciated in the psilocybin experience even more so.
00:24:55.613 --> 00:24:57.375
I felt like in the LSD experience.
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:05.267
Like I was like music, incredible.
00:25:05.267 --> 00:25:07.375
Like I could hear all the infinite layers of music and I just thought that is just incredible.
00:25:07.375 --> 00:25:11.144
I would stretch and do yoga and I was like, whoa, I am more flexible, I am like more.
00:25:11.144 --> 00:25:13.611
I felt like I literally felt my mind expanding.
00:25:13.611 --> 00:25:26.540
I literally felt like I heard the doors in my mind closing and opening and that I mean that's like next level and I felt like there was nothing to be afraid of in my mind.
00:25:26.540 --> 00:25:29.347
I'm like, wow, there's nothing to be afraid of in here.
00:25:29.749 --> 00:25:38.882
Like I understand that there can be things I can be cautious about, there can be things I can mess, I can worry about, I can be cautious about.
00:25:38.882 --> 00:25:42.574
There can be things I can mess, I can worry about, um, or maybe not worry about, but be like mindful of for sure, but I'm not going to.
00:25:42.574 --> 00:25:54.204
You know, I I just realized that my mind was not a fearful place, you know so, which was a really great realization and one that like took me it still takes me time to like integrate and process and realize.
00:25:54.204 --> 00:25:56.827
So, yeah, I really feel a kinship with LSD.
00:25:56.827 --> 00:26:02.493
I think it's just a groovy fun, like medicine, that makes you feel like your.
00:26:02.493 --> 00:26:06.944
Your mind is a very fun, pleasant place to be a party, if you will.
00:26:06.944 --> 00:26:18.662
Um, like your mind is like this beautiful, colorful, vibrant festival, as opposed to like potentially a scary place or, you know, a place that's going to tell you to do things you really shouldn't do.
00:26:18.682 --> 00:26:21.548
Yeah, no, I, I agree with that.
00:26:21.548 --> 00:26:30.516
Like I absolutely adore lsd as well, and it's funny because I find people who are either like an lsd person or not.
00:26:30.516 --> 00:26:31.539
There's not really like a middle.
00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:34.688
There's no one that's like, ah, maybe, like, every once in a while I like it.
00:26:34.688 --> 00:26:37.251
Like it's usually a pretty polarizing medicine.
00:26:37.251 --> 00:26:46.573
I love it because it is, in my opinion, the ultimate goofball medicine, like, like there'll be moments where I'm actually like, is it possible to die from laughter?
00:26:46.573 --> 00:26:48.641
Because if so, I'm definitely getting close.
00:26:48.641 --> 00:26:55.441
Like I, uh, you know it's funny talking about like the going from one gram to five grams to 10 grams.
00:26:56.024 --> 00:27:00.229
I kind of did that with LSD in a way where I tried it a couple times.
00:27:00.229 --> 00:27:03.641
I've been doing a lot of mushrooms, like a lot of mushrooms right around.
00:27:03.641 --> 00:27:10.890
My dad was sick and things like that, so I was doing a shit ton of mushrooms and I had a friend that was really big into L and he loved it.
00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:20.173
You know he always told me about it and so that year I went to Electric Forest and tried finding some there, tried like three different batches from different people and nothing worked.
00:27:20.173 --> 00:27:27.264
So my silly brain came up with a belief that I must just be impervious to LSD, right, I'm immune to it.
00:27:27.264 --> 00:27:28.769
It doesn't work for me, right?
00:27:28.769 --> 00:27:37.586
So I get home and my buddy was like, hey, I got some stuff, you should check it out, but be very careful.
00:27:37.586 --> 00:27:39.343
And I was like that's nobody doing.
00:27:39.343 --> 00:27:41.308
He's like, well, they're gel tabs, they're a lot stronger.
00:27:41.308 --> 00:27:43.584
And I was like, ah, they're like this big dude.
00:27:43.584 --> 00:27:46.471
Like you know, I take a bunch of mushrooms like whatever dude.
00:27:46.471 --> 00:27:48.202
What's the worst that could happen, right?
00:27:48.202 --> 00:28:00.801
So, uh, I convinced, yeah, I convinced my friends to eat these pyramids and go to uh excision at the house of blues, which excision is, like, you know, super heavy dubstep, like a lot of bass.
00:28:01.364 --> 00:28:15.487
At the time that's what I was into and and it was just very like I mean, lsd is like high alert on all your I don't know like every sense is like on high alert in a good way, unless you go to 180,000 watts of bass like a goof.
00:28:15.487 --> 00:28:30.826
So we go there and I remember I took it and my buddy, who was like my best friend, he took it 20 minutes before me and he was in the venue already like, well, dude, I'm definitely feeling something this time, like I don't know what yet, but like it's starting and I was like, oh, I'm excited, so we get in there.
00:28:30.826 --> 00:28:33.341
I'm like so, mr confident, like oh, this is gonna be sick.
00:28:33.341 --> 00:28:37.089
And then, uh, we put our coats in the coat check or whatever.
00:28:37.089 --> 00:28:42.290
And we walk out to the main floor and I see him and he's like dude, I'm definitely starting to buzz.
00:28:42.290 --> 00:28:43.764
And that's the last thing I remember.
00:28:43.804 --> 00:28:46.490
Then, all of a sudden, my girlfriend at the time tugs me.
00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:47.741
She's like hey, she didn't take it.
00:28:47.741 --> 00:28:49.624
She's like hey, do you want me to grab our coats?
00:28:49.624 --> 00:28:50.525
The show's almost over.
00:28:50.525 --> 00:28:53.568
And like my whole world came crashing down around me.
00:28:53.568 --> 00:28:59.277
And as I'm doing that, I'm looking around and all my friends are like the exact same, like holy shit, how, where are we?
00:28:59.277 --> 00:29:02.402
And like then I realized I don't even know if I have legs.
00:29:02.402 --> 00:29:03.447
Have I pissed myself?
00:29:03.447 --> 00:29:04.170
I don't even know.
00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:06.317
Like it was so wild.
00:29:06.357 --> 00:29:07.843
And I remember getting out of house of blues.
00:29:07.843 --> 00:29:14.565
Everyone was trying to go out at the same time and there was like this thought that came in of like are people going to get trampled right now?
00:29:14.565 --> 00:29:17.209
And it wasn't like a paranoid like oh, my god, it's going to happen.
00:29:17.209 --> 00:29:19.472
It was just like, huh, that could happen right now.
00:29:19.472 --> 00:29:20.855
That'd be fucked up, you know.
00:29:20.855 --> 00:29:22.764
And then I remember we drove home.
00:29:23.164 --> 00:29:32.820
My girlfriend was completely sober and it was snowing out it's like probably right around this time of year and I remember being so shook, being like, are you sure you, you know how to drive?
00:29:32.820 --> 00:29:36.025
She's like I'm literally sober, dude, I did nothing, I'm fine.
00:29:36.025 --> 00:29:37.645
I was just so mystified.
00:29:37.645 --> 00:29:40.048
After that I gained a lot of respect for Elle.
00:29:40.048 --> 00:29:43.673
Then I started a very fun relationship with it.
00:29:43.673 --> 00:29:47.336
It's been very powerful, especially messing around with liquid.
00:29:47.336 --> 00:29:50.159
I ate a mega dose back in 2017.
00:29:50.159 --> 00:30:02.875
I and just I mean essentially puddled myself with my cousin at like 11 pm at night and just dissolved, laying on my back looking at the stars, just became the stars for I don't know 10 hours telepathically communicating with him.
00:30:02.875 --> 00:30:06.589
So I've had some of the most profound experiences in my life on LSD.
00:30:06.589 --> 00:30:10.990
And also I feel like, have you ever done breath work on LSD before?
00:30:12.701 --> 00:30:15.206
I think I have, and it's pretty crazy.
00:30:15.961 --> 00:30:20.006
Yeah, out of all the different medicines I've done breathwork on, I discovered this with LSD.
00:30:20.006 --> 00:30:22.813
One time at a retreat we just were.
00:30:22.813 --> 00:30:33.961
We did a cannabis ceremony while we're on acid, I had taken three hits by accident, everyone else took one, so my buddy and I were running the ceremony, the walls are like melting and we somehow pulled it off.
00:30:33.961 --> 00:30:41.886
Everyone had a great time and at the end we kind of like just did a round of breath work to close out the circle and all of us left our body when we were like what the fuck was that?
00:30:42.528 --> 00:30:55.288
I feel like when you do breath work and LSD, there's like this feeling you get of like I don't know, it's like a crystalline world you go to, where I feel like you know a lot of people talk about dmt and how you need a very little amount to like touch god.
00:30:55.288 --> 00:30:57.392
I feel like lsd is just like that.
00:30:57.392 --> 00:31:01.043
You know, I I don't know how to describe it, but do you feel what I'm saying?
00:31:01.043 --> 00:31:02.527
Like, do you understand what I'm talking about?
00:31:02.527 --> 00:31:08.839
Like that idea that, like this, this, it's so crystalline, it's almost like it brings you to the crystalline universe of god.
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:11.521
It's very interesting yes, for sure.
00:31:11.862 --> 00:31:22.588
Um, it feels very much like, I don't know like that solemn feeling you get when you enter like a very beautiful church, but also like, and a personal feeling of like.
00:31:22.588 --> 00:31:36.897
You feel like you just had like a cup of magical coffee, like, like, because coffee like speeds up your heart rate right, makes you sweat, and so like it's like you if you had euphoric coffee like this.
00:31:36.897 --> 00:31:40.192
There was something in that coffee, but I don't know what it is.
00:31:40.192 --> 00:31:44.384
Yeah, so yeah that those two, those two feelings are like with lsd and like.
00:31:44.685 --> 00:32:13.826
So when you're in a situation like, for example, like at a house of blues or something, it's like that was, that's such such a classic kind of case of just being like, just like having thoughts that you wouldn't normally have and then just like witnessing and observing them is probably the healthiest thing to do, is similar to like being in deep states of meditation, but there is like a sense of feeling a little bit out of control, like, kind of like letting like a third graders imagination take the wheel.
00:32:15.169 --> 00:32:30.002
Know, like, like imagine if, like a little kid was like like putting you in a cartoon of their making, that's sort of like how it feels, or like a kid is like dressing you for the day and you're like, yes, I'm going with this, like I guess this is, this is the way it is.
00:32:30.083 --> 00:33:02.319
So, um, yeah, but I also feel like I want to acknowledge, um, what I didn't mention was ayahuasca, cause I think you and I both have experienced this medicina, um, so, with ayahuasca, like that crystalline feeling, with LSD, like this is why I, if anyone I know, has like an inclination, a proclivity for experiencing deeper spirituality in the psychedelic experience, for experiencing deeper spirituality in the psychedelic experience, and they feel like, maybe like LSD or psilocybin, like they're, they're content with it and they're they want to go further.
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:15.461
I totally recommend ayahuasca because I believe cause ayahuasca is taken in a ceremonial spiritual context typically, and you know, I think as it should, because it is like it is, it is like a pillar.
00:33:15.461 --> 00:33:26.615
Um, you know, I think as it should, because it is like it is, it is like a pillar for many, for many cultures and societies in the world that, frankly, like have no need for our Western, you know anything or luxuries.
00:33:26.694 --> 00:33:43.947
Yeah, exactly, still integrating how there are certain cultures in the world that have ayahuasca as the pillar of their community, as in like it's a collective experience, it's a group bonding agent, it's a group like centerpiece for the culture.
00:33:44.528 --> 00:33:56.365
And yet these are cultures that, like, um, they just are getting smartphones, they're just experiencing what alcohol is, they have no need for skyscrapers, and I'm just like they.
00:33:56.365 --> 00:34:03.271
But they also don't suffer from many of the disorders and diseases that you know we may suffer from in our society.
00:34:03.271 --> 00:34:16.527
And, like they have a completely different view on homelessness, they have a completely different view on intimacy and family and what connection is and what children are like, what children are like, what they're capable of.
00:34:16.527 --> 00:34:45.386
And I just think it just blows me out of the water to like because I was raised in like a city, I was a city person and to like be acquainted with, say, like the Uwanawar, the Shipibo people, I'm like this is amazing and this is awesome and I really we need us to learn from each other, like we need us all to learn from each other, because the divide is getting greater and it's getting unhealthier, so we need to learn from them.
00:34:45.386 --> 00:34:53.971
And if they can learn anything from us, sure, like great um but you know um ayahuasca is really that feeling of like.
00:34:54.030 --> 00:35:04.769
It's that crystalline feeling where, like I personally feel like when I drank ayahuasca, I literally do feel like I feel like the veil coming off, like in the Plato's cave.
00:35:04.769 --> 00:35:10.507
It's just like you turn around and you see the true forms and you're like this is it, this is actually it.
00:35:10.507 --> 00:35:12.512
And you're seeing things for what?
00:35:12.512 --> 00:35:24.213
And you're seeing it basically in a way where you you can like feel energy, like you can straight up, like you can see somebody and you can like almost see like the waveforms of the energy they're vibrating in.
00:35:24.213 --> 00:35:29.152
And there's no judgment there, it's not like good or bad, it's just like what are you attracted to?
00:35:29.152 --> 00:35:30.762
So, like in an ayahuasca ceremony?
00:35:31.103 --> 00:35:39.019
I don't know if you do this too, but I find myself literally tuning in and channeling into people in the room the energy that I want, and sometimes I want a dancing energy.
00:35:39.019 --> 00:35:51.184
So I, I I kind of connect with like the most skilled dancer in the room where I want a singing energy, I want to get in with the singing, and so I tune into, like the most skilled singer in the room that I see and like that's it's.
00:35:51.184 --> 00:35:56.471
It's definitely, it's definitely a trip, but it's a very spiritual medicine.
00:35:56.471 --> 00:35:59.534
Great reverence is there and it's not for everyone at every time.
00:36:00.255 --> 00:36:01.416
Yeah, no, 100%.
00:36:01.416 --> 00:36:05.190
You know it's funny, I've actually the only medicine I've yet to do is Aya.
00:36:05.190 --> 00:36:07.487
I've done well, except for Wachuma too.
00:36:07.487 --> 00:36:16.563
I did do peyote so I kind of experienced what Wachuma is like, or at least according to people that have done both, but actually that's wrong, or at least according to people that have done both, but actually that's wrong.
00:36:16.563 --> 00:36:19.427
I did sip on wachuma at a music festival, but like literally a micro, micro, micro dose.
00:36:19.427 --> 00:36:26.175
But ayahuasca is the only medicine that I haven't connected with, other than Ibogaine and I guess Iboga as well.
00:36:26.175 --> 00:36:26.896
I have to throw those in.
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.182
But I've been fast friends with Hamilton Souther and I know my first time is going to be with him Just because when I met him, you know my first time is going to be with him, just because when I met him, you know there was a lot of things.
00:36:40.182 --> 00:36:44.572
I've been hearing that because I didn't have an experience with them, I didn't speak on them, like the whole idea of people saying cannabis and ayahuasca or jealous spirits, I didn't believe that.
00:36:44.572 --> 00:36:49.373
But like I didn't have any experience with ayahuasca, so I was like well, I'm not going to go out there and say as if I do so.
00:36:49.373 --> 00:36:50.233
When I met Hamilton.
00:36:50.233 --> 00:36:59.679
You know, it was just so funny because here's this guy who's a gringo, who moved down to the jungle like 20 something years ago and earned his fucking stripes down there.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:04.532
Like everyone down there respects him now because he almost got murdered like seven times down there.
00:37:04.532 --> 00:37:09.610
I mean, he, like you know, went through some crazy shit to prove that he could be like a white guy in the jungle doing what they do.
00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:19.668
Basically, you know, and he just you know, he's such a incredible human being just overall, so deep, but he's also fucking hilarious.
00:37:19.961 --> 00:37:21.965
And that, to me, like, there's a reason.
00:37:21.965 --> 00:37:29.567
The jester is the last archetype in the tarot deck, right, like I want the shaman, and probably many of them are like this, right, but Hamilton is one of the first ones I met.
00:37:29.567 --> 00:37:40.135
You know, like I want the shaman that can hold some gangster space and take care of me, but I also want them to be able to crack jokes at me, you know, like, because I love comedy.
00:37:40.135 --> 00:37:44.612
That's one of the reasons I love LSD as well, because it's just one big hilarious experience.
00:37:44.612 --> 00:37:46.186
Now it can be obviously other things too.
00:37:46.186 --> 00:37:50.231
I've experienced that, but a lot of times just insane laughter, you know.
00:37:50.231 --> 00:37:55.074
And so I remember one of the first questions I asked him was what's this silly stuff?
00:37:55.114 --> 00:37:59.090
I hear about cannabis and ayahuasca and he's like listen, dude, he's like most of these cultures.
00:37:59.090 --> 00:38:03.889
They don't have cannabis in their lineage, so they're just like don't add it because we don't know what's going to happen.
00:38:03.889 --> 00:38:09.463
And then westerners take that and they go oh, they must not get along, they must be jealous.
00:38:09.463 --> 00:38:13.148
He's like you know, for most people I'd say yeah, maybe take a month off before you come down.
00:38:13.148 --> 00:38:17.173
Whatever he's like for you, I tell you to come hit this joint while we're on ayahuasca.
00:38:17.554 --> 00:38:32.690
And I was like see, that's the approach I like of like, you know, not necessarily having to combine medicines, but not creating these weird stories of like, oh, they don't get along.
00:38:32.690 --> 00:38:34.831
It's like that's the same thing as when people say not God, okay, like.
00:38:34.831 --> 00:38:35.731
You know what I mean.
00:38:35.731 --> 00:38:39.836
So it's just very interesting to see those kinds of like dichotomies, you know.
00:38:39.836 --> 00:38:41.682
But that's a a lot of.
00:38:41.682 --> 00:38:57.086
The reason why I've loved Hamilton so much is because I think that I just resonate with so much of what he says and I think he's drank ayahuasca now over 10,000 times, which is I can't even comprehend what that is.
00:38:57.086 --> 00:39:00.967
I think most shamans do a similar thing to that, which is mind-bogglingly amazing, but it is very interesting.
00:39:00.967 --> 00:39:03.467
I'm very excited for my first time, for sure.
00:39:04.068 --> 00:39:05.521
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
00:39:05.521 --> 00:39:09.811
Something I will say is that I haven't drank ayahuasca 10,000 times.
00:39:09.811 --> 00:39:15.210
I've drank ayahuasca 20 times, but when people ask me how many times I've drank it.
00:39:17.121 --> 00:39:20.188
I'm like that's like asking me how many times I've like smoked a joint or like, yeah, done mushrooms.
00:39:20.188 --> 00:39:25.007
It's like it's like why, why does that matter?
00:39:25.007 --> 00:39:26.510
Like, why does the quantification matter?
00:39:26.510 --> 00:39:31.974
Not to say that it's not like a bad question, it's just like it's a question of a mind that's like.
00:39:31.974 --> 00:39:35.811
That's like curious and interested and like innocently wanting to know more and wanting to go deeper mind that's like.
00:39:35.811 --> 00:39:39.746
That's like curious and interested and like innocently wanting to know more and wanting to go deeper and that's an amazing urge.
00:39:39.786 --> 00:39:46.050
But it's also like it's not like the question to ask if you only had one question, for example.
00:39:46.050 --> 00:40:10.802
Like it's it's such an ineffable experience and you can, like you can honestly witness and experience so many lifetimes in like one moment of an experience that sometimes it's it's not like how many times you've had the experience, it's like it's what you're doing in your life or who you're being in your life with, the, say, influence or inspiration like of that medicine.
00:40:10.802 --> 00:40:32.831
No experience, Um, yeah, yeah, Just cause, like you know, I don't I think any, I think any any spiritual guide honestly would agree with this is like like even, for example, in the Santo Daime Padrino, Paolo Roberto, who's like been leading these churches all over the world um, since probably the eighties, I think.
00:40:32.831 --> 00:40:46.851
Like I think he would agree and say that like it is not about how many times I do, it's like he's like, it's just like, it's like his work, like he goes to work like he doesn't clock in how many days or what how many emails he sends during work he's just
00:40:47.052 --> 00:40:49.885
like he's just, like I'm just, I'm there to perform.
00:40:49.885 --> 00:41:03.148
Like he approaches it so, so in a stellar way, where it's like he kind of he clocks in, he clocks out, he does his best and his best happens to be incredibly healing for many people, myself included.
00:41:03.148 --> 00:41:06.563
Like I can't I can't even describe the?
00:41:06.563 --> 00:41:17.231
Um, the importance of when, like on mother's day, for example, one year, I had no idea that I would be going through many bouts of crying, like the whole ceremony I spent crying and I didn't expect that.
00:41:17.231 --> 00:41:18.603
We don't expect these things.
00:41:19.346 --> 00:41:44.001
And, um, he came over to me and he kind of like took me aside and he said he said, mia, like I see you've been crying for hours and I just want you to know that, like that, that place of beautiful pain, sorrow, like upset, that hurt, um, he, he's like it's important to go there and it's also important to remember that you don't need to stay there, like if you're attached to it or if you're clinging to it.
00:41:44.001 --> 00:42:21.938
Um, he's like, he's like, really like, reevaluate that, because those states, those states of pain and hurt, we are meant to experience those, but we are not meant to stay there, um, and I really appreciated him saying that Cause that, like in that instance of him saying that, it helped me really understand, like my mom and lots of people who feel like lonely and who just like, who just don't know how much time passes by when they're just like flaking out on responsibilities, abandoning commitments, abandoning their children, abandoning, abandoning you know things that they formerly were very excited about or, like, wanted to be excited about, um and anyways.
00:42:21.958 --> 00:42:43.184
That's a very deep conversation, but no, I love this about talking about ayahuasca no, I love this, you know, because that's exactly what hamilton says too, and you know one of the reasons why he comes out and will say those kind of things about you you know how many times and things like that is because there are a lot of these mainstream organizations let's call it the news.
00:42:43.184 --> 00:42:45.570
You know, media, pharmaceutical companies, et cetera.
00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:47.164
They'll say wait, wait, wait.
00:42:47.164 --> 00:42:49.005
How do we know it's safe to do this?
00:42:49.005 --> 00:42:59.012
And he'll say well, as someone that's done it over 10,000 times, I can pretty much assure you that if something was going to be inherently challenging with this, objectively, I would have discovered it by now.
00:42:59.012 --> 00:43:07.543
But probably similar to that gentleman you were mentioning, not every time he drinks ayahuasca is like a full on shamanic dose.
00:43:07.543 --> 00:43:14.201
I think in ceremony he went through an exercise he did explain this in one of the podcasts we did Before.
00:43:14.201 --> 00:43:16.302
He was, you know, considered a shaman.
00:43:16.302 --> 00:43:25.927
One of the things he had to do was drink a little bit every day because they were doing ceremony every day and at a certain point he got gifted.
00:43:25.927 --> 00:43:48.951
You know the idea of like hey, you've now made it basically, which, according to that culture, and one of the reasons I get so weirded out when people call themselves shamans is because, like according to Hamilton and other you know medicine workers I've talked with, when you're in like an indigenous community, like that, it's not something you call yourself right, like it's something you get called by the elder one day and you're just as shocked as everyone else, you know.
00:43:48.951 --> 00:43:55.833
And so I feel like one of the things that aggravates me and it's you know, it just is what it is Right.
00:43:55.893 --> 00:44:03.170
But I remember the time in my life, you know, when I was younger, where I thought like hey, I must need more of this to keep access in the same thing, right.
00:44:03.170 --> 00:44:09.501
And at the same time, like yeah, there were ideas of like hey, maybe I forgot something, maybe I can go back, maybe there's more to learn.
00:44:09.501 --> 00:44:16.699
But also, you know, I think a lot of people, especially in Western cultures, we're used to taking a pill to make things better.
00:44:16.699 --> 00:44:37.260
So I think a lot of us end up utilizing psychedelics in a similar way, before we know better right, before we learn some of the indigenous ways and some of the other things as well, where we take these things and we just expect that after we're going to just oh, be poof, better right, better Right.
00:44:37.280 --> 00:45:08.242
And I think that you know that's why I've taken about two years now off of anything but cannabis, you know, because I just felt like the last mushroom trip I have was so powerful and there was so much that came out of that, because I waited a year in between then because there was some big thing that I would have been had been integrating between the last experience and this one, and then after that one, I felt like I really got what I needed and I've spent the last two years really integrating that, and usually Rachel and I will do a big mushroom experience around Valentine's Day, and so we've been talking about, like, do we do it this year, you know, and so I'm still kind of figuring out whether or not, you know, I feel ready to do it.
00:45:08.342 --> 00:45:28.170
But it's fascinating how, like you know, I'm still integrating parts of my experience when I was 23 and my you know first couple mushroom experiences, and I'm also integrating things that you know were two years ago, you know, and it's fascinating how I think that, like, I think this is kind of like the, not that there needs to be an argument for, but I think this is kind of the argument for why we meditate, why we do breathwork, etc.
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:32.606
Because a lot of times every morning I'm getting back to some of those places.
00:45:32.606 --> 00:45:40.284
Again, I'm not tripping balls when I'm there, but, you know, I'm getting back to those places and starting to uncover even more aspects of those belief systems, stories, etc.
00:45:40.284 --> 00:45:43.451
That led me to a dysfunctional experience of life.
00:45:43.451 --> 00:45:53.896
You know, and I think those things just kind of take the governance off and allow you to see what life can really be, and I think a lot of people get stuck there because they just want it to be that way already and it's like well, no, like it can be that way.
00:45:53.896 --> 00:45:57.744
But it also includes you being an active participant in your healing, you know.
00:45:58.306 --> 00:46:16.192
So it's fascinating, yeah that's a really great segue into like talking about kind of this, like states of like that that we reach when we think about like end of life or death, or grief, which is like a common, common state that I'm like talking with people about.
00:46:16.893 --> 00:46:25.693
And because, like, grief is something that I really think it's kind of like what, what has us living a life halfway?
00:46:25.693 --> 00:46:29.266
So like it's what keeps us like often stuck.
00:46:29.266 --> 00:46:47.001
So like when we stay in, when we stay in, like, for example, jobs that we secretly, secretly resent, or marriages or relationships that we secretly know are not healthy for us, or, um, we stay stuck doing patterns that we know we shouldn't be doing.
00:46:47.001 --> 00:46:53.641
Like it's like being in high school knowing that, like you shouldn't be skipping class if you want to ace that class, you know what to to do.
00:46:53.641 --> 00:46:55.003
Why aren't you doing it?
00:46:55.003 --> 00:47:09.317
So that is so grief because like and this is why I think that a lot of you know illnesses or mental health challenges that we know is like depression, anxiety, which are, by the way, again, not words used in, for example, the Amazon.
00:47:10.900 --> 00:47:13.670
It's like there's no DSM worshiping community there.
00:47:17.079 --> 00:47:19.228
And when you know what they exist, great, you know yeah.
00:47:19.601 --> 00:47:33.126
I love how the psychedelic community both appreciates psychology and mental health but also is able Psychedelic community is a really good community for parsing through actually what works in the traditional psychological model.
00:47:33.126 --> 00:47:41.074
You'll really find no DSsm worshipers and if you do, you're like you're ready to go to bat, you're ready to just say, hey, why?
00:47:41.074 --> 00:47:46.630
Like, you know that homophobia was once there as an illness, right, so why are we still relying on that system?
00:47:46.630 --> 00:47:47.961
Why don't we like abolish?
00:47:47.961 --> 00:47:57.130
No, just kidding, but, um, maybe I'm with you on that um, abolish systems, yeah, but like anyways.
00:47:57.452 --> 00:48:19.940
So with, for example, like with these illnesses that we know to be debilitating, to be unsustainable, such as depression, anxiety, ptsd more newly, um, you know, we're uncovering things about these, these states, so we're uncovering, you know, what depression can look like, what it can sound like, what it can feel like, how everyone can tune into anxiety.
00:48:19.940 --> 00:48:22.807
Anxiety is often something about the future that we think about.
00:48:22.807 --> 00:48:28.932
It's these future thoughts that, like paralyze us, and everyone has that, actually in differing degrees.
00:48:28.932 --> 00:48:34.224
And PTSD, like we were finding out that actually, like it's not just a veteran thing.
00:48:34.224 --> 00:48:46.030
Actually more women have ptsd in general, which I'm like not surprised by because, like, if I had a son, for example, he might be like, yeah, I want to go to tibet by myself, and we'd be all like great.
00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:50.527
But if a daughter was like I want to go to tibet by myself, we'd have a lot more warnings for her.
00:48:50.527 --> 00:48:51.791
It's just the way it is.
00:48:51.791 --> 00:48:56.672
We understand that, like, the world isn't some idyllic, progressive city.
00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:00.769
The world is in many ways actually not an idyllic, progressive city.
00:49:00.769 --> 00:49:08.532
On the whole, it's not utopic and views women and men equally.
00:49:08.532 --> 00:49:19.402
So what I'm finding is that unprocessed grief is really the through line between, I think, a lot of these mental health challenges.
00:49:19.402 --> 00:49:21.568
We, you know, there was this.
00:49:21.568 --> 00:49:25.726
There was, um, there was this beautiful moment in the Gilmore girls.
00:49:25.827 --> 00:49:40.574
Actually, I was recently seeing and uh, it was this moment where um, the like sweet angel child daughter Roryory, she like goes and like visits this friend of hers who she may or may not have a crush on, and he's kind of a bad boy.
00:49:40.574 --> 00:49:49.168
He gets into a lot of fights at school, he's trouble, he steals things, he's from New York, so she goes to visit him in New York, too much to no one's knowledge, and that everyone's surprised when they find out.
00:49:49.168 --> 00:49:50.762
And she just goes to visit him.
00:49:50.762 --> 00:50:02.730
And when she leaves, after like an hour or so of spending time with him actually, no, it's probably a little more like a few hours, but anyways, she, she, she's on the bus leaving and he says to her while she's leaving his, why did you come here?
00:50:02.730 --> 00:50:04.760
He's like you skipped school, you never skipped school.
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:05.041
Why.
00:50:05.041 --> 00:50:09.059
Why would you skip school and come here to visit me and she said, well, you never said goodbye.
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:19.860
And kind of as an audience member, you might be expecting her to say like, because I love you, because I want to be with you, because you're my friend, because I have no friends, um, but she just says, because you didn't say goodbye.
00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:27.525
I thought that was so beautiful and so, simply put, how many times do we say goodbye to people but it's not really a full goodbye?
00:50:27.525 --> 00:50:31.322
How many times do people die and we don't get the chance to say goodbye?
00:50:31.322 --> 00:50:33.164
Actually, probably more often than not.
00:50:33.164 --> 00:50:51.181
Know a lot of like it's a luxury to die with your loved ones anticipating it and making those sorts of arrangements, but there are lots of people, lots of young, healthy, attractive people, that you don't think will die and they die in a car accident, like just spontaneously.
00:50:51.181 --> 00:51:01.969
You know they're a whatever, like a really bad virus, and so it's something that, you know, I feel very strongly about, because I feel like everyone has unprocessed grief.
00:51:01.969 --> 00:51:08.052
We all, we all transition out of life into something else.
00:51:08.273 --> 00:51:10.653
But we all are going to experience death.
00:51:10.653 --> 00:51:28.456
So it's something that I feel like it's probably the most important conversation I think to have and unfortunately, a lot of like huge arguments in the world that like are taught, that are a lot, of, a lot of unfortunate conversations that are being had about it are being had with the front of religion.
00:51:28.456 --> 00:51:41.291
So religion has helped to like explain grief and explain what death is like explain grief and explain what death is, and unfortunately there's so much conflict over that that just baffles me, cause I'm like why can't we just respect each other's belief systems?
00:51:41.431 --> 00:51:44.193
But anyways, I totally agree with that.
00:51:44.193 --> 00:51:45.833
It boggles my mind, mia.
00:51:45.833 --> 00:51:46.594
I don't get it.
00:51:46.594 --> 00:51:47.295
I'm like wait.
00:51:47.795 --> 00:51:56.010
So you say you believe in God, but you're willing to kill someone else because they believe in somehow a different God and you can't see that you guys are really talking about the same being at the end of the day, right?
00:51:56.010 --> 00:51:57.795
Like that's not my God.
00:51:57.795 --> 00:52:02.554
You know, I would never support a God that would want me to kill people and that's not what God I mean.
00:52:02.554 --> 00:52:09.201
Like I'm okay with being wrong, but I would be, I will go, I will put all my eggs in that basket, but that's not what God wants.
00:52:09.201 --> 00:52:15.255
Like I am so vehemently against that idea that we need to kill each other over what God we believe in.
00:52:15.255 --> 00:52:17.402
I could not be more against anything.
00:52:17.402 --> 00:52:18.704
So I totally agree with you on that.
00:52:18.704 --> 00:52:22.432
And yeah, I also think that you know.
00:52:22.432 --> 00:52:32.139
I mean we could have a five hour conversation about how our society is asked backwards, right, like I always I like to jokingly say, because comedy helps you process grief to a certain degree.
00:52:32.139 --> 00:52:38.231
But if white bread is on the food pyramid and how we do anything is how we do everything, then just think about how fast backwards we are.
00:52:38.231 --> 00:52:50.240
But you know our core values in society, right, like they're not explicitly stated, but we can kind of see what they are just from the actions that this country takes in Western worlds and things like that.
00:52:50.240 --> 00:52:52.766
But it's productivity right.
00:52:52.766 --> 00:53:01.500
So when people die it's like, well, cool, but get back to work, right, like do whatever you got to do, take medication, do whatever Just get back to what you're supposed to be doing.
00:53:01.500 --> 00:53:11.309
It's kind of like the going trend or like the kind of like unspoken core value of this country and I think that, and probably many other countries too.
00:53:11.309 --> 00:53:22.027
But as an American I'll just speak to this country because I know it like the back of my hand.
00:53:22.027 --> 00:53:22.527
So you know it's it's.
00:53:22.548 --> 00:53:24.936
It's very interesting because I feel very grateful that when my dad got sick, you know, I knew he was going to die.
00:53:24.936 --> 00:53:44.309
I also had just found psychedelics and it just was like the perfect storm of like I didn't really know what psychedelics were at that point, but I just kept taking more and more of them and then eventually I had a very spiritual experience and after I came out of that I had another about six months with my dad and it wasn't easy, like I mean, he had brain cancer.
00:53:44.309 --> 00:53:45.903
So there's a lot of weird shit that he was doing.
00:53:45.903 --> 00:53:57.985
But because of that experience I had, I realized it's not personal, it's not really him and who he really is is going to be here forever, but also like it's going to suck not being able to go to breakfast with him, you know.
00:53:57.985 --> 00:54:07.264
So it was like the perfect dose of like not bypassing, not being like, oh, we're all love and light, it's going to be fine, but also not the other side of like, oh my god, I'm going to lose him forever.
00:54:07.264 --> 00:54:12.827
It was like the perfect dose of like he's going to be here forever, but it's going to be a transition for sure, not having him in the physical.
00:54:12.827 --> 00:54:14.469
So, yeah, it's very interesting.
00:54:14.550 --> 00:54:18.817
I'm curious for you, like you know, is this how psychedelic salons came into the picture?
00:54:18.817 --> 00:54:23.467
You know, like everything you're doing with that project, like you know, like, how did that?
00:54:23.467 --> 00:54:27.003
You know everything we've talked about so far, how does this rope into it?
00:54:27.003 --> 00:54:28.525
Because I imagine they're linked, you know.
00:54:28.565 --> 00:54:38.173
I'm just curious to ask yeah, um, they're somewhat linked, like it's definitely a part of the mosaic of the grief work that I do.
00:54:38.173 --> 00:55:00.010
But psychedelic salons actually arose out of, like, a desire to combine networks of people that I knew in academia, in finance and in research with people who were, you know, facilitators and were holding space for psychedelic journeys, or who were, um you know, facilitators, um, and we're holding space for psychedelic journeys, or who were um creating.
00:55:00.010 --> 00:55:02.219
You know they were making mushrooms.
00:55:02.219 --> 00:55:04.304
You know they were growing mushrooms is what I want.
00:55:05.125 --> 00:55:12.969
Um, they were making them, Um yeah, so I wanted to really connect those two worlds and be the bridge for that.
00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:39.844
And that's what psychedelic salons are, cause I'm finding that, like when I go to the average psychedelic meetup in any kind of given Western city or town, typically it's like it's either very much like, I guess, kind of people who like just got off the bus from like a festival and they're just like yeah rock on festival or like people who are like just very spiritually, um, embedded in some sort of like yeah, just some sort of like.
00:55:40.365 --> 00:55:45.128
They use kind of over spiritualized language sometimes, which and this alienates a lot of people.
00:55:45.128 --> 00:55:49.623
Like like, most people are not like calling themselves psychedelically enlightened.
00:55:49.623 --> 00:55:52.130
Most people in the world don't know what holding space means.
00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:59.449
Most people in the world like are not talking about mental health at a level that is like trauma informed typically.
00:55:59.449 --> 00:56:21.487
So, um, I just think like to bring it more home, to like literally integrate more people into learning more about the psychedelic experience and like how healing psychedelics can be, is just to kind of meet people where they're at, like meet the average mind where they're at and like I get it like a venture capitalist coming to us like it'll like meet up like they're not the average person either, however they like it's.
00:56:21.688 --> 00:56:35.731
It would surprise a lot of people, I think, to understand like how much like CEOs or especially like start like entrepreneurs, startup business owners, actually think a lot about people in general, like masses of people, groups of people.
00:56:35.791 --> 00:56:41.422
Like that's that you don't have a business that succeeds unless you do extensive amount of market research.
00:56:41.483 --> 00:56:48.733
You understand your target market very well, and you're thinking a lot about people that do not live the life that you live.
00:56:48.773 --> 00:56:52.023
You're thinking about products and services that fit them and their life.
00:56:52.023 --> 00:57:25.447
So you know, I just think, yeah, I wanted to connect those worlds, to kind of say, okay, well, let's have a psychedelic meetup where it's like it's not like a boring over scientific academic conference, but it's also not necessarily a festival, because there are lots of people who like don't go to festivals, even if they would, and also like wouldn't typically go to a scientific conference, but they still have a psychedelic experience, they want to integrate, they still want to learn more about psychedelics and, most importantly, like they want to encourage and support psychedelic work happening.
00:57:25.447 --> 00:57:38.425
Or they want to like fund some sort of mental health therapy program, or they want to fund research which is like great research which is like great, that's amazing, because you know it would.
00:57:38.425 --> 00:57:41.074
Yeah, as you can probably guess, psychedelic research and therapy is like not funded.
00:57:41.074 --> 00:57:50.670
You know, if therapy and talk therapy isn't even being funded that much for people like, if there's no government huge government subsidy for that, there's definitely none for psychedelic therapy.
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:52.623
No, it's crazy.
00:57:52.623 --> 00:57:55.809
I mean, you know, because I specialize in cannabis.
00:57:55.809 --> 00:58:14.030
I know an interesting fact around the cannabis research in this country, and if it's like this with cannabis, we can imagine that it may let's just use soft talk may be similar when it comes to, you know, additional psilocybin research, mdma, ketamine, all the kind of big ones that are getting into, uh, the mainstream.
00:58:14.030 --> 00:58:18.927
But in this country, you, you know, I'll have people send me often like what do you think about this study?
00:58:18.927 --> 00:58:20.721
I just saw one on Fox News the other day.
00:58:20.721 --> 00:58:27.981
Cannabis use, regular cannabis use, impacts brain health, right, and to the untrained eye I'd be like, oh my God, that's crazy.
00:58:27.981 --> 00:58:29.003
It's scary, right.
00:58:29.864 --> 00:58:35.431
Well, there's a great individual here in Boston, actually, peter Grinspoon, whose dad was Lester Grinspoon.
00:58:35.431 --> 00:58:37.634
He wrote Marijuana Reconsidered in 1971.
00:58:37.634 --> 00:58:44.829
He's a Harvard MD, or was a Harvard MD, and he was best friends with Carl Sagan, and so, really cool book Marijuana Rediscovered.
00:58:44.829 --> 00:58:49.028
I actually got to meet him once at the cannabis school I went to before he passed away.
00:58:49.028 --> 00:58:51.461
But anyway, his son is now kind of taking the lead in everything.
00:58:51.461 --> 00:59:04.509
He's also a Harvard MD and so he wrote a great book called Seeing Through the Smoke, and in this book he opens up the idea that he's like do you guys see all this research coming out around cannabis being bad or whatever he said?
00:59:04.509 --> 00:59:10.820
Do you know that in this country you can't get funding to study cannabis unless you're already looking for a detrimental effect?
00:59:10.820 --> 00:59:13.947
So that, right there, brings in a gigantic bias.
00:59:13.947 --> 00:59:20.405
Then on top of that, if you okay, okay I'm going to study cannabis and only look for a detrimental effect.
00:59:20.405 --> 00:59:31.023
The only cannabis you can use to find that detrimental effect is from the university of mississippi, which is the worst cannabis ever grown like.
00:59:31.023 --> 00:59:35.362
Usually, when the researchers get it, it's, on average, three to four years old.
00:59:35.362 --> 00:59:50.121
It's been freezered like you know freeze dried, essentially and it's got stems, seeds, mold and mildew in it and that's the cannabis they're meant to use to find and study what has to already be detrimental for them to even get funding and so like.
00:59:50.643 --> 00:59:54.251
That's why I'm so bullish on this idea of like.
00:59:54.251 --> 01:00:02.240
We need more people that are separate from governing bodies, being like hey, let's do some independent research here and see what's really happening.
01:00:02.240 --> 01:00:13.282
Because if the truth was that cannabis let's just use as an example because it's in the research all the time If the truth was that cannabis did impact brain health, I think we would have realized that already.
01:00:13.282 --> 01:00:16.199
You know to a degree that it was that dangerous anyway.
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:17.184
You know again.
01:00:17.184 --> 01:00:21.981
And also, we don't know like aspect of cannabis would do that right.
01:00:21.981 --> 01:00:24.777
Like, is it the glyphosate that's being grown with chemical salts, right?
01:00:24.777 --> 01:00:33.786
So it is very challenging even in the realm of cannabis, let alone all the other things, because we don't even know if the research being done is without bias.
01:00:33.786 --> 01:00:37.894
I mean, we know it isn't with cannabis, but I don't know what's going to happen with psilocybin and things like that.
01:00:37.894 --> 01:00:39.096
So it's very interesting for sure.
01:00:39.655 --> 01:00:56.268
Yeah, I really appreciate that nuance take because we're not really looking deeper at why studies are conducted and the connection between scientific research with legalization and policymaking with funding sources.
01:00:56.268 --> 01:01:00.449
So like, we really need to be looking at like, ok, why are?
01:01:00.449 --> 01:01:04.132
Why were we using outdated versions of the food pyramid for so long?
01:01:04.132 --> 01:01:12.219
Why are we feeding kids red 40 for so long?
01:01:12.219 --> 01:01:12.940
Someone must've allowed that.
01:01:12.961 --> 01:01:14.708
Yeah, whoever has like, whoever has like the money and who would want to?
01:01:14.708 --> 01:01:16.215
Who would want to influence the food pyramid?
01:01:16.215 --> 01:01:18.739
The Bible, for what kids eat in schools?
01:01:18.739 --> 01:01:28.637
Oh, probably Kellogg's, probably Nestle, like, probably huge corporations um, who would want to make more money?
01:01:28.637 --> 01:01:34.681
Of course, like, of course they would, and so they would say anything and they would put out any research.
01:01:34.681 --> 01:01:40.501
And so I remember actually having this argument back in, I think, 2017, when I was at a conference.
01:01:40.501 --> 01:01:55.423
It was at probably a health conference or something, and I was working in venture capital that time and I, you know, I'm not just any venture capitalist, I'm a cool and like.
01:01:55.423 --> 01:02:05.481
If you say to people that you work in venture capital, people definitely want to talk to you and they want to talk to you about like money and oftentimes they want to like know how money works and like how funding happens, um.
01:02:05.481 --> 01:02:10.978
So I was like talking to this person about scientific research and they were like, oh, I just love research.
01:02:11.019 --> 01:02:12.704
I love it and I'm like I love research too.
01:02:12.704 --> 01:02:13.326
Research is great.
01:02:13.326 --> 01:02:16.083
And they were like, yeah, they were like there's, it's so cool.
01:02:16.083 --> 01:02:20.659
All these psychedelic studies are coming out Like, um, you know, and?
01:02:20.659 --> 01:02:35.478
And when I think they were saying something about how, when research happens, it's like it's like it's important because it's like the scientific method applied, to say, like something like a psychedelic which you know, people are like tripping on, but no one's thinking about the science behind.
01:02:35.478 --> 01:02:37.724
And I thought, yeah, yeah, no for sure.
01:02:37.724 --> 01:02:40.257
But it's like, um, science isn't everything.
01:02:40.257 --> 01:02:42.784
Like science isn't like you know, the end all be all of.
01:02:42.784 --> 01:02:49.248
Something like, for example, like what happened to galileo, right, like dude, dude was not living his best life.
01:02:49.248 --> 01:02:51.617
Um, dude was highly skeptical.
01:02:51.617 --> 01:02:54.264
Like there were high like critics and skeptics of him.
01:02:54.264 --> 01:03:06.164
He died that way, and so we were just talking and they said, well, I mean yeah, but like, if science says it's this way, then, like you know, then they apply the scientific method.
01:03:06.164 --> 01:03:07.860
Like there's different boards and councils.
01:03:07.860 --> 01:03:08.664
I'm like, yeah, sure.
01:03:08.715 --> 01:03:09.798
There are a lot of people involved.
01:03:09.798 --> 01:03:10.661
Like, make sure that happened.
01:03:10.661 --> 01:03:15.264
They're all highly educated, I'm sure, but why did that research happen?
01:03:15.264 --> 01:03:18.744
Like, have you talked to a researcher or an average scientist about money?
01:03:18.744 --> 01:03:21.277
Have you ever talked to somebody who works in science?
01:03:21.277 --> 01:03:35.121
If you talk to anybody who works, especially in nonprofit spaces, or researchers, people are there's one word to describe the attitudes about money, and that is squirrely, as in like they, they're not.
01:03:35.121 --> 01:03:35.583
Like.
01:03:35.603 --> 01:03:40.130
They may know everything about, like the human eye, the retina.
01:03:40.130 --> 01:03:45.722
They may know, like everything there is to know about the retina and they just keep on top of that and they read every journal about it.
01:03:45.722 --> 01:03:51.251
However, um, do they know how, like the average?
01:03:51.251 --> 01:03:55.025
Do they know how, like, for example, the, the wealthiest guy in the world, made their money?
01:03:55.025 --> 01:03:57.425
Do they know anything about, like, how research is funded?
01:03:57.425 --> 01:03:58.028
Do they have they?
01:03:58.028 --> 01:04:02.302
How many studies have they pitched to boards to get funding?
01:04:02.302 --> 01:04:09.664
Like, have they taught to any venture capitalists in their life, or angel investors, or, or entrepreneurs raising money?
01:04:09.664 --> 01:04:11.889
You know raising for seed, seed round?
01:04:11.929 --> 01:04:18.396
So it's like there is a huge disconnect between and I get it it's like it's not in their zone of genius.
01:04:18.396 --> 01:04:20.422
If you're a scientist and you study the retina.
01:04:20.422 --> 01:04:23.719
You're not going to think all the time about, like, how money moves in this country.
01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:25.402
You're just going to be doing your research.
01:04:25.402 --> 01:04:33.836
You know, you have your tenure, you have your job, you get, but, um, it's very important to think about how money moves too, because I think we saw this during covid.
01:04:33.836 --> 01:04:46.929
It's like there was a lot of job insecurity, a lot of scarcity about money and um, it's amazing to me how many banks during the recession that, like I was growing up in um, how many banks still exist today.
01:04:46.929 --> 01:04:50.615
And we were I think we mentioned this like I was like, how are these banks still existing today?
01:04:50.615 --> 01:04:55.704
Like, didn't they cause a complete downturn in like economy?
01:04:55.704 --> 01:04:58.797
And economy is just like you and I and how we do things.
01:04:58.876 --> 01:05:14.144
So, anyways, this is it's like a larger conversation, but, like there is there is a disconnect between, like, um, what people truly understand about, like how research gets funded, and then how that research eventually goes into legalization.
01:05:14.144 --> 01:05:28.943
Because, like as you said, with the example of um, the terrible weed study, it's like if you're, if you're doing a research study and you, you want to get like bad results for that research study and you want to turn people off from a product.
01:05:28.943 --> 01:05:39.465
All you have to do is have the money, or raise the money, to fund a study, to purposely skew the results with people that you know will do what you want them to do.
01:05:39.465 --> 01:05:46.804
Like you will purposely hire people that will give you the results you want and they, of course, will take the money, because they're scientists and they want to make money.
01:05:46.804 --> 01:05:47.425
Who doesn't?
01:05:47.425 --> 01:05:50.465
Who doesn't have a PhD and want to pay off their student loans.
01:05:50.465 --> 01:05:57.748
And then I know this is like shattering people's views, maybe.
01:05:57.768 --> 01:05:58.489
This is amazing.
01:05:59.036 --> 01:06:04.637
And then all you have to do is then, like, convince a few lawmakers to be like look at this study, look how terrible this thing is.
01:06:04.637 --> 01:06:10.277
And then the lawmakers are like, yeah, you're right, I you know, I don't want these in my schools, and whatever.
01:06:10.318 --> 01:06:17.219
It's like okay new miler, cbs friday on every corner this kid's coming to school in adderall.
01:06:17.219 --> 01:06:20.311
You know, it's like it like, make it, make sense.
01:06:20.311 --> 01:06:21.355
It doesn't make any sense.
01:06:21.355 --> 01:06:27.385
That's why, for me, I just consider all of that a thirst trap that I don't not pay any attention to.
01:06:27.385 --> 01:06:29.550
But I don't put my eggs in that basket.
01:06:29.550 --> 01:06:31.057
You know, like for me.
01:06:31.559 --> 01:06:56.483
I've just realized that I think if I could describe it in a very small amount of information, what it feels like to me is that we're in a world where most people are let's just use an apple for an example Most people are using like like they're, they're trying to figure out what an apple is by reading the books on an apple, they're studying the apple, they're understanding pectin, they're understanding all these things, but at the same time they've never actually taken a bite of an apple.
01:06:56.483 --> 01:07:03.487
So they think they know an apple from what they've studied, but they've also never asked themselves who wrote the book on an apple, right?
01:07:03.487 --> 01:07:09.744
So they're not going to know if it's truly accurate until they actually go eat an apple and see for themselves based on their own experience.
01:07:09.744 --> 01:07:31.027
And I think that's where the world kind of is is like just trust the science, which, like when I saw that I was like, oh, that was the last thing I ever needed to see to realize this is all bullshit, Because a real scientist, someone who's passionate around science they never want to trust anything.
01:07:31.027 --> 01:07:32.409
What's fun to them is being like this is what it shows so far, but we're going to keep testing it until it breaks right.
01:07:32.409 --> 01:07:32.663
If it never breaks, cool.
01:07:32.568 --> 01:07:34.271
But we're never going to say just trust it because it hasn't broke yet, Right?
01:07:34.271 --> 01:07:36.632
We're going to say, hey, this is where we're at with it, you know.
01:07:36.632 --> 01:07:42.021
So it's a very interesting realm, you know, and a definitely interesting time in society.
01:07:42.021 --> 01:07:43.543
But, Mia, this has been amazing.
01:07:43.543 --> 01:07:44.846
I can't wait to get you back on.
01:07:44.846 --> 01:07:48.070
We could literally riff for hours and hours and hours, but I want to make sure.
01:07:48.070 --> 01:07:55.996
I want to make sure people know where they can find you, where they can connect with you, where they can find out more about the beautiful grief work you do, psychedelic salons and everything else you got going on.
01:07:55.996 --> 01:07:56.876
Where can I send everyone?
01:07:57.697 --> 01:08:00.561
Yeah, honestly, I'm pretty active on Instagram.
01:08:00.561 --> 01:08:04.425
Um, I definitely wish there was a less controversial platform.
01:08:05.547 --> 01:08:06.807
But that's where I am.
01:08:10.235 --> 01:08:14.764
That's where, like my people are, and yeah, and so that's you know.
01:08:14.764 --> 01:08:15.927
You can DM me on there.
01:08:15.927 --> 01:08:17.659
You can look at my story updates.
01:08:17.659 --> 01:08:18.322
Look at my post.
01:08:18.322 --> 01:08:20.856
I post regularly every week, so beautiful.
01:08:20.877 --> 01:08:21.779
I'll put that in the show notes.
01:08:21.779 --> 01:08:43.271
And I have one last question for you, mia, and that I ask everyone that comes in the show, and that question is let's say, someone listens to this show and they're really excited to check out psychedelic medicines in their own life, what is the one piece of advice you would offer them to allow them to use the proper discernment in understanding whether or not these types of medicines are right for them in their life right now?
01:08:44.015 --> 01:08:46.639
whether or not these types of medicines are right for them in their life right now.
01:08:46.639 --> 01:09:00.829
Okay, I actually feel like I know my answer for this, like my one answer, sick, hold on, give me a sec, I'm trying to recall it, take your time, take your time.
01:09:03.695 --> 01:09:09.350
Oh, I would actually assess to see your state of open-mindedness.
01:09:09.350 --> 01:09:24.520
So, for example, if you are somebody, if you are somebody who has a high openness to experience and you know exactly what I mean when I say this as in like somebody says, hey, let's go to mexico tomorrow, hey, let's, let's do this gig, hey, hey.
01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:26.578
And you like having a lot of little gigs.
01:09:26.578 --> 01:09:29.030
You don't like being tied down to things, you like having.
01:09:29.030 --> 01:09:32.762
You like having openness, spaciousness, you like saying the sky's the limit.
01:09:32.762 --> 01:09:38.341
I would actually hold off from psychedelics because you want to go in there with a strong intention.
01:09:38.862 --> 01:09:47.939
Now, if, like me, when you have you may suffer from narrow mindedness and and you've been maybe I don't even know how you would listen to this podcast then.
01:09:47.939 --> 01:09:59.360
But maybe maybe you're somebody who, like was, was, you know, offered to listen to this podcast by someone that you respect to a modicum of a degree and you've been shaking your head this whole time.
01:09:59.360 --> 01:10:02.246
And you may or may not be an atheist.
01:10:02.246 --> 01:10:04.217
You're probably a reductionist, materialist.
01:10:04.217 --> 01:10:05.761
You're probably academic.
01:10:05.761 --> 01:10:08.486
Maybe you don't get out much, maybe you do and you hate it.
01:10:08.486 --> 01:10:11.520
Maybe you, maybe you go to a therapist.
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:13.626
Maybe everyone's been telling you to go to a therapist.
01:10:14.215 --> 01:10:30.716
I would actually look into psychedelics, because when I was, when I was, like, suffering from being very narrow minded, being very stuck in the anger stage of my grief, psychedelics was incredible for me.
01:10:30.716 --> 01:10:42.222
I loved it and that was mostly because of my high disposition to optimism and being very like just relentlessly happy all the time, but that was that was really cut off when I, like had my loss of my mother.
01:10:42.222 --> 01:10:59.682
So, um, this psychedelics, you know, if you kind of don't feel like you're as open-minded, it will really help you, um, like reconnect with the part of you that is happy, at ease, relaxed, and this lightens up.
01:11:00.724 --> 01:11:02.807
Yeah, oh, I love that.
01:11:02.807 --> 01:11:03.949
Mia, thank you so much.
01:11:03.949 --> 01:11:11.960
That's the first time I've gotten that answer and it's such a powerful answer too, because that, in my mind, is what psychedelics have helped me do more than anything.
01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:26.390
It's just break out of perceived I don't know, you could call it matrices if you want to be really edgy these days but you know, perceived thought patterns, belief systems, unconscious stories, maybe conscious stories, whatever those things are, just to kind of break the mold.
01:11:26.390 --> 01:11:28.937
You know, I think that's what psychedelics can be really good for.
01:11:29.017 --> 01:11:41.221
And, you know, fortunately there is, like there is so much more information these days, you know, on, hey, maybe you don't need to start out with five grams, right, like the things that we didn't really know when we were on, like, I mean again, blue light and other sites.
01:11:41.221 --> 01:11:45.248
They did kind of tell you that, but it wasn't nearly as open as it is now.
01:11:45.248 --> 01:11:55.234
And I think, you know, even though that can cause a lot more people to think it's just immediately for them, right, I think at the same time, I'm starting to see a lot more education come in that I'm really excited about.
01:11:55.234 --> 01:11:57.757
So, mia, thank you so much for coming on.
01:11:57.757 --> 01:11:59.338
It's been such a pleasure diving in.
01:11:59.578 --> 01:12:03.002
Can't wait to meet you in person, give you a big old hug, check out everything you're doing in Boston.
01:12:03.002 --> 01:12:05.444
But make sure you go check out Mia, everybody.
01:12:05.444 --> 01:12:06.305
Go give her a follow.
01:12:06.305 --> 01:12:11.510
She's putting out some great information and, like you heard here, she has skills to pay the bills.
01:12:11.510 --> 01:12:14.534
So make sure you give her a follow, sending you guys all the love.
01:12:14.534 --> 01:12:16.496
Have a great day, and may the source be with you.
01:12:16.496 --> 01:12:18.635
Peace.