Unlocking Peak Performance: The ROI of Investing in DEI (with Dr. Vijay Pendakur, Organizational Development Strategist)

1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,680
Dynamism is really essential as
a manager and leader and to not
2
00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,840
get locked into set in stone
lift and shift methods.
3
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,840
So if you're a first 90 days
kind of person and you're like,
4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,200
well this is my model, this is
the way I do it and you start in
5
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,200
an organization, they go, well,
how about the 1st 30 days you
6
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,920
fall apart, right, because that
you're not offered the runway.
7
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,280
And so I think the agility of
saying, OK, so I'm not going to
8
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,960
have 90 days, then how do I act
and behave very differently and
9
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,080
maybe break some other rules and
norms in order to achieve my
10
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,560
goal.
And so generally when you are on
11
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,360
boarding, you don't pull your
whole team together because
12
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,400
you're just not ready to yet,
but maybe you have to flip that
13
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,520
on its head if you need to ship
strategy or product faster.
14
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,720
Welcome to the Super Managers
Podcast where we interview
15
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,440
leaders from all walks of life
to tease out the habits, thought
16
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,880
patterns, learnings and
experiences.
17
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,800
That help them be extraordinary
at the fine craft of management.
18
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,480
Our goal is to bring you the
lessons and the insights so that
19
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,520
you don't have to learn through
your own mistakes, but so that
20
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,040
you can shortcut your way to
being a great leader.
21
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,120
This podcast is brought to you
by fellow the software platform
22
00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,200
that helps managers and their
teams collaborate on meeting
23
00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,960
agendas, track action items, and
turn chaotic meetings into
24
00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,120
productive work sessions.
Check it out at www dot.
25
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,480
Fellow dot App.
Hey fellow managers and leaders.
26
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,840
I'm Aidan and I'm the CEO of
fellow dot App.
27
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,360
Today I'm very excited to
introduce you to Dr. Vijay
28
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,280
Pendakur and he has had an
extensive leadership career
29
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:37,000
spanning many companies
including Zynga, VMware and most
30
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,840
recently he was the Chief
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion
31
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,670
Officer at Dropbox.
We have a very wide-ranging
32
00:01:43,750 --> 00:01:48,270
discussion, starting from
talking about how Vijay goes
33
00:01:48,310 --> 00:01:53,710
into a new organization and what
he does in the 1st 90 days, and
34
00:01:53,710 --> 00:01:57,630
how sometimes it's not even
practical to wait 90 days before
35
00:01:57,630 --> 00:02:01,590
you can have an effect.
And we get very tactical,
36
00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:05,230
including the framework that he
uses in order to evaluate his
37
00:02:05,230 --> 00:02:08,590
team, what's going on with it in
the company and what are the
38
00:02:08,590 --> 00:02:12,230
quick wins that you can achieve
when starting something new.
39
00:02:12,510 --> 00:02:16,110
We also dive into an area that
he spent a lot of his career in,
40
00:02:16,110 --> 00:02:19,190
which is the diversity, equity
and inclusion space.
41
00:02:19,510 --> 00:02:23,790
But Vijay takes a completely
different approach to this topic
42
00:02:23,830 --> 00:02:27,350
and we really break it down.
He has two buckets that he uses
43
00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:30,910
to break apart.
The pillars of the EI and he
44
00:02:30,910 --> 00:02:34,030
talks about it in terms of
relevance and performance.
45
00:02:34,030 --> 00:02:38,230
So we talk a lot about what all
of that means and how to use
46
00:02:38,230 --> 00:02:40,670
those frameworks to really drive
impact.
47
00:02:41,030 --> 00:02:44,270
And if you like what you hear,
if you've been a listener of the
48
00:02:44,270 --> 00:02:47,630
show, we really appreciate all
of the five star reviews that
49
00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:49,430
we've been getting.
And if you haven't given us a
50
00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:51,750
review yet, it only takes a
second.
51
00:02:52,070 --> 00:02:55,350
You can do that on your podcast
app right now.
52
00:02:55,810 --> 00:02:58,490
And if you want to join the
other listeners of the show,
53
00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:01,250
join our community.
Talk about the episodes, get
54
00:03:01,250 --> 00:03:04,210
management advice from others,
help others out when they have
55
00:03:04,210 --> 00:03:06,730
management questions.
It's lots of fun.
56
00:03:06,730 --> 00:03:10,290
Join our super managers, Slack,
workspace, easy to do.
57
00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:13,850
All you have to do is send us an
e-mail to super managers at
58
00:03:13,850 --> 00:03:17,290
fellow dot App and we will be
sure to let you in.
59
00:03:17,650 --> 00:03:20,890
And with that said, let's get
into the interview with Dr.
60
00:03:20,890 --> 00:03:24,500
Vijay Pendakora.
Jay, welcome to the show.
61
00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:27,300
Happy to be here, Aiden.
Yeah, excited to do this.
62
00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:30,060
You've worked at a number of
different companies, lots of
63
00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:34,540
familiar names, Zynga, VMware.
Recently Chief Diversity Equity
64
00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:38,340
Inclusion Officer at Dropbox.
Lots of experiences all
65
00:03:38,340 --> 00:03:40,020
throughout.
You've been in the talent space
66
00:03:40,020 --> 00:03:43,860
for a very long time, and as you
know, we usually start the
67
00:03:43,860 --> 00:03:46,140
podcast though by talking about
mistakes.
68
00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:50,020
So we're gonna have you think
about those very early days when
69
00:03:50,020 --> 00:03:51,700
you start to manage and lead a
team.
70
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,760
Do you remember some of the
mistakes that you made back in
71
00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,720
those days?
Oh gosh, there's so many to draw
72
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,800
from Aden.
You know when long before I was
73
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,560
leading teams at Zynga and
VMware and Dropbox, I had a
74
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,720
nearly 20 year career as a
scholar and a administrator in
75
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,320
higher education in the United
States.
76
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:15,720
So I was working on university
campuses and my background as a
77
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,760
manager is the manager's
podcast.
78
00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,360
It's my background as a manager
was really formed in the norms
79
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,200
and supports of higher education
people leadership, long before I
80
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,160
was in corporate and when I was
27 years old.
81
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,240
So I'm not going to date myself,
but it was a long time ago.
82
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,640
When I was 27, I was an
assistant director of a
83
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,960
department at DePaul University
in Chicago, IL in the United
84
00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,440
States, and I was tapped to step
up into the interim director
85
00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,040
role because of a sudden
departure of my supervisor.
86
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,690
And after a lengthy search I
became the full time director of
87
00:04:49,690 --> 00:04:52,650
that department.
So at 28 years old, I suddenly
88
00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:56,010
found myself having a team of
five full time professionals
89
00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:59,290
reporting to ME3 graduate
assistants and and a large
90
00:04:59,290 --> 00:05:02,330
number of student workers.
And I'm actually really close
91
00:05:02,330 --> 00:05:03,730
with the number of those folks
today.
92
00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:05,490
So I'm grateful for this
experience.
93
00:05:05,490 --> 00:05:08,770
But it was it was a way to learn
and there were many mistakes
94
00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:11,490
made along the way.
I think you asked specifically
95
00:05:11,490 --> 00:05:14,990
about a leadership or management
mistake, and one of the ones I
96
00:05:14,990 --> 00:05:18,350
remember making over and over
again I did not learn the first
97
00:05:18,350 --> 00:05:22,230
time is I moved too quickly to
forming my own viewpoint.
98
00:05:22,270 --> 00:05:25,710
And what I mean by that is like
I have a really strong gut
99
00:05:25,710 --> 00:05:29,910
intuition and I my mind can
quickly synthesize disparate
100
00:05:30,070 --> 00:05:32,590
information sets and form a
viewpoint.
101
00:05:32,670 --> 00:05:34,830
And this is advantageous until
it's not.
102
00:05:35,150 --> 00:05:37,750
And when I was taking over an
intact team as this new
103
00:05:37,750 --> 00:05:41,510
director, I had a desire to move
quickly and sort of demonstrate
104
00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:45,220
my worth.
And what I did is I I missed out
105
00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:49,340
on the opportunity to actually
get really valuable signal and
106
00:05:49,340 --> 00:05:53,220
clean signal from that team.
That led to tactical mistakes.
107
00:05:53,580 --> 00:05:56,100
And so I had to learn the lesson
the hard way.
108
00:05:56,340 --> 00:05:58,860
That often times phrases help me
remember lessons.
109
00:05:58,860 --> 00:06:02,500
And the phrase that I take away
from that time is culture eats
110
00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:05,700
strategy for breakfast.
And I was moving to strategy
111
00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:07,740
before I understood culture and
culture.
112
00:06:08,060 --> 00:06:11,840
When you take over a team, you I
learned over time to actually
113
00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:16,120
lean in and listen openly to the
folks that were trying to tell
114
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,200
me about the programs and
services and budgets and the
115
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,480
problems and opportunities that
they were really engaged with.
116
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,600
And for me, as a leader, I think
one of my many learning curves
117
00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,040
was around slowing down and
learning to listen before
118
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,720
forming A viewpoint and making
key decisions.
119
00:06:34,730 --> 00:06:36,570
I'd love to hear a little bit
more about that.
120
00:06:36,570 --> 00:06:40,290
So how did you figure out that
this was a mistake that you were
121
00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:42,090
making?
Like, what happened on the team?
122
00:06:42,090 --> 00:06:45,370
Did someone say something?
Did things start to happen?
123
00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:49,490
How did you come to that
realization, the feedback loop?
124
00:06:49,530 --> 00:06:51,970
I'm thinking back, Aiden, this
was a number of years ago, but
125
00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:56,530
the feedback loop that I think
helped me realize where I had a
126
00:06:56,530 --> 00:07:01,530
problem in my process was really
around moving to execution of
127
00:07:01,530 --> 00:07:05,670
certain new programs, services
and tactics, and then having the
128
00:07:05,670 --> 00:07:10,190
painful mismatch between the
thing we were trying to do and
129
00:07:10,190 --> 00:07:12,390
the constituency we were trying
to serve.
130
00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:16,790
We were designing solutions for
various segments of the student
131
00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:19,870
body at DePaul University.
And when there's a mismatch
132
00:07:19,870 --> 00:07:22,230
between the service that you've
designed and what that
133
00:07:22,230 --> 00:07:25,310
constituency really needs, then
you don't get the lift.
134
00:07:25,310 --> 00:07:27,110
You don't get the outcome that
you're seeking.
135
00:07:27,430 --> 00:07:32,260
And it was in the iterative
process of launching, failing to
136
00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:37,020
meet expectations, having to
realign that I came to realize I
137
00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:40,140
actually heard about these
issues beforehand and I didn't
138
00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:42,380
pay attention.
The humility here, right, is
139
00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:46,220
when you have to go.
I think that Sarah or Eric or
140
00:07:46,220 --> 00:07:48,900
Jeff was actually trying to tell
me about this on the front end.
141
00:07:49,260 --> 00:07:53,800
But I'd come to my own point of
view so quickly that I I
142
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,640
actually didn't allow their
wisdom and their lived
143
00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,760
perspective of leading that area
to inform the design of this,
144
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,960
this new road map.
And so it was in the stumbling
145
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,080
between strategic design and
tactical execution that I came
146
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,840
to realize that one of the
problems was me and that I
147
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,200
needed to fix that if I was
going to become a more efficient
148
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,440
and effective leader.
Because if you've as many of
149
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,720
your listeners probably
experienced when you launch and
150
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,640
then have to realign, it's
inefficient at best, if not
151
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,760
painful.
Yeah, it's super interesting
152
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,520
because often times, I mean
generally speaking, most of
153
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,720
these generic advice phrases
that have become almost like
154
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,720
memes, trust your gut and the
like can mislead you.
155
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,080
So I think one of the things
I've always thought about is
156
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,200
that yes, you can trust your
gut, but you have to be careful.
157
00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:46,960
Which situations?
Like your gut isn't going to
158
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,440
tell you the right answer in
situations that you don't have
159
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,920
experience in or that you
haven't been in for a long time.
160
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,040
So sometimes it's better to
trust your gut in certain
161
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,800
situations, but also, you know,
trust the gut of other people in
162
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,800
other circumstances, right?
So it's it's not always your gut
163
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,720
that you trust.
Sometimes you have to figure out
164
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,440
who has the highest
believability index.
165
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,960
And, you know, here's a set of
people like you said that.
166
00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:14,710
We're living the situation day
in, day out and may have
167
00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:15,950
experienced those sorts of
things.
168
00:09:16,310 --> 00:09:19,430
I mean, I think it's a really
interesting way that you came
169
00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:22,030
upon it.
So the whole time did anyone say
170
00:09:22,030 --> 00:09:26,830
anything like I told you so or
any of those sorts of things on
171
00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:29,830
the team?
Let me see where the I told you
172
00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:31,910
so came in.
And I think that this question
173
00:09:31,910 --> 00:09:35,630
of the I told you so is so it's
interesting to ask, right?
174
00:09:35,630 --> 00:09:39,210
Because in a power based
relationship, right?
175
00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:42,410
Even if I'm not an authoritarian
leader and I'm not, it's still a
176
00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:44,690
power based relationship.
I'm the manager and they're the
177
00:09:45,010 --> 00:09:48,450
direct report.
Then there can be some latency
178
00:09:48,530 --> 00:09:51,490
around the I told you so.
And I think that that latency
179
00:09:51,490 --> 00:09:55,890
really interrupts the feedback
loop in a way that's harmful to
180
00:09:55,890 --> 00:09:59,210
the organization, right?
And so at that time, I didn't
181
00:09:59,730 --> 00:10:02,810
know and I didn't have the
language and skill around
182
00:10:02,810 --> 00:10:05,980
investing in psychological
safety early and often has a
183
00:10:05,980 --> 00:10:09,140
mechanism to collapse that
latency so that you get the I
184
00:10:09,140 --> 00:10:12,780
told you so, which a more more
constructive way of framing, I
185
00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:15,660
told you So is feedback, right,
authentic, bidirectional
186
00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:18,020
feedback.
And that's what we know managers
187
00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:20,940
and directs need to have.
But a barrier to it is when
188
00:10:20,940 --> 00:10:24,580
people don't feel safe doing it.
And so at the time, I hadn't
189
00:10:24,580 --> 00:10:28,020
invested in the psychological
safety necessary to create the
190
00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:30,820
feedback loop.
And so I think that rather than
191
00:10:30,820 --> 00:10:34,430
the learning coming from my team
saying Vijay, you know, I
192
00:10:34,430 --> 00:10:36,710
remember six months ago in that
meeting when I brought this up,
193
00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:40,630
it was to sort of name with real
humility the how this all went
194
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:43,830
down at that time is actually me
seeing it in the data.
195
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:48,590
And so it didn't come from the
team, it came from the test
196
00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:52,670
iterate approach to solving for,
you know, human capital issues,
197
00:10:52,670 --> 00:10:54,790
right when you're launching new
programs and services, you're
198
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:57,270
seeing in the data whether
they're working or not.
199
00:10:57,550 --> 00:11:00,710
And when I wasn't noticing the
lift that we predicted on
200
00:11:00,710 --> 00:11:03,700
whatever variable we were trying
to change, having to go back and
201
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:07,380
process redesign multiple times
is where I learned that lesson.
202
00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:11,340
Not even in the direct feedback
from team members, but rather
203
00:11:11,340 --> 00:11:14,580
than the aha moment for me was
like, oh this is the issue.
204
00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:17,860
Oh wait, I feel like Sarah
actually already told me about
205
00:11:17,860 --> 00:11:19,980
this and I didn't hear.
It, you know, this is super
206
00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:23,540
interesting and we're talking
about it right now from the
207
00:11:23,540 --> 00:11:26,610
sense of.
You know, a new manager issue,
208
00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:28,410
right?
Like you become a manager and
209
00:11:28,410 --> 00:11:31,130
this happens.
But I think what's when unique
210
00:11:31,130 --> 00:11:33,570
about your experiences?
You've obviously been in these
211
00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:36,610
leadership roles across all
these different companies and so
212
00:11:37,010 --> 00:11:40,130
you've almost kind of relived
that moment many times because
213
00:11:40,130 --> 00:11:44,290
you get parachuted into new
company and there's people
214
00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:47,930
who've been there for a long
time and have been doing the
215
00:11:47,930 --> 00:11:51,170
job.
And so I do wonder, so now when
216
00:11:51,170 --> 00:11:54,640
you get into a new organization.
What is your playbook and how do
217
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:55,960
you go about it?
Sure.
218
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,800
And I guess like the other thing
to balance is, yes, you need to
219
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,880
listen to obviously your team,
but you're going into a new
220
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,790
organization and presumably.
It's because whatever they were
221
00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:08,110
doing may have not been getting
the result.
222
00:12:08,110 --> 00:12:10,430
And so you're the change agent
to some extent.
223
00:12:10,430 --> 00:12:12,870
So yeah, wonder what your
playbook is.
224
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:15,070
You go into new organization.
How do you play it?
225
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:17,670
Yeah.
Aiden, I love that you're naming
226
00:12:17,950 --> 00:12:21,910
one of the operational
constraints that doesn't often
227
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:23,870
show up in the leadership books.
Right.
228
00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:26,350
So you're stuck on a delay at
the airport.
229
00:12:26,350 --> 00:12:28,310
You go into the airport
bookstore, there's, you know,
230
00:12:28,510 --> 00:12:30,310
all the leadership books are on
the front table.
231
00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:33,910
And they talk about this like
really extended period of sense
232
00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:35,990
thinking that leaders should be
involved in, right where you
233
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:39,750
carefully study the context.
And then the reality is
234
00:12:39,790 --> 00:12:42,710
particularly when you're hired
into a senior level role in a
235
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:46,270
company, you are expected to
make decisions really quickly
236
00:12:46,350 --> 00:12:50,630
often and you're not given some
huge runway to be an
237
00:12:50,630 --> 00:12:53,750
ethnographer of culture and
people and problems before you,
238
00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:56,310
you know say make wise and sage
decisions.
239
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:58,750
So it's there's a tension there
right around agility and
240
00:12:58,910 --> 00:13:01,390
learning and humility.
And so for me, a couple of
241
00:13:01,470 --> 00:13:04,390
things that have become part of
the playbook as I've, to borrow
242
00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:07,390
your language, parachuted into a
number of organizations across
243
00:13:07,390 --> 00:13:10,710
multiple sectors and taking over
intact teams every time.
244
00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:12,910
I don't think I've ever gotten
to build my own team from
245
00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:14,790
scratch, right?
So I've always taken over intact
246
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:17,070
teams and I've gotten to make
hires, obviously.
247
00:13:17,070 --> 00:13:20,270
But there's some level of moving
in and working with who is there
248
00:13:20,270 --> 00:13:22,950
and what is there.
So two things that come up for
249
00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:25,310
me in response to this Playbook
question.
250
00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:29,790
One is a counter to the trust
your gut conversation we were
251
00:13:29,790 --> 00:13:32,670
having earlier, my gut.
So what I've learned about
252
00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:37,070
myself is my gut is driving hard
towards doing stuff quickly and
253
00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:39,070
making decisions quickly, and I
have to manage that.
254
00:13:39,310 --> 00:13:43,150
So managing my gut is probably
more important for me than
255
00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:46,510
trusting my gut.
And one way I manage my gut is I
256
00:13:46,510 --> 00:13:50,150
give myself a task that I have
to do with my directs very
257
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:54,230
quickly as a manager.
And that is to, through a series
258
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:58,310
of meetings, assess the we
things about each of my team
259
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:59,950
members.
And these three things are one,
260
00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:04,040
they're domain expertise.
So we're where are they in terms
261
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,200
of the depth of their
understanding of the domain
262
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,320
expertise they're supposed to
have to run this or to run this
263
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,160
function or to be a midlevel
person in this function or
264
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,680
junior level person in this
function, right.
265
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,400
The 2nd is their operational
effectiveness.
266
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,320
So there's the what you know and
then there's the how you get
267
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,520
things done capacity and just as
important honestly as domain
268
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,920
expertise.
And then the third is their
269
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,340
emotional intelligence.
And these are all three axes of
270
00:14:31,420 --> 00:14:35,260
when you really think about how
you end up with an impact player
271
00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:39,020
or a superstar, it's because
they rate high on domain
272
00:14:39,020 --> 00:14:41,820
expertise, they rate high on
operational effectiveness, and
273
00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:43,500
they rate high on emotional
intelligence.
274
00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:48,180
So one task I give myself is the
process of learning an
275
00:14:48,180 --> 00:14:52,300
individual around these three
dimensions before moving to
276
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,830
making decisions about that
individual, their remit, how
277
00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:58,550
we're going to apply their
talent and time towards
278
00:14:58,550 --> 00:15:00,750
solutioning.
And that's been a helpful
279
00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:03,910
heuristic or mental model to
guide my gut impulse towards
280
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:07,310
doing the second part of
playbook that I can share.
281
00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:10,350
So when I started as the head of
Inclusion, Talent and Engagement
282
00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:14,030
at Zynga, there was a team.
We were doing a lot of 0 to 1
283
00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:17,510
builds, so trying new things for
the first time, right?
284
00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:22,060
And I realized that a technique
I can bring forward to quickly
285
00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:25,380
raise psychological safety on my
team, which is imperative,
286
00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:26,980
particularly in a 0 to one
stage.
287
00:15:27,340 --> 00:15:31,580
It is a ritual that I introduced
at our team meetings called
288
00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:35,780
Fantastic Fudge Out, and I
modeled it by talking about a
289
00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:39,300
mistake I'd made at work and
what happened, why it was a
290
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:40,620
mistake and what I learned from
it.
291
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:44,180
And then we just created every
few staff meetings.
292
00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:48,130
I would add it into the the
agenda 5 minutes at the end for
293
00:15:48,130 --> 00:15:49,730
somebody to step forward
virtually.
294
00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:52,650
We were virtual at the time and
say, hey, and let me unmute.
295
00:15:53,170 --> 00:15:57,410
So I launched this effort and
here's what we tried and wow,
296
00:15:57,570 --> 00:15:59,770
here's what didn't work and
here's what we've learned and
297
00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:02,530
how we're fixing it.
And fantastic fudge ups is a
298
00:16:02,530 --> 00:16:06,730
great way to celebrate the
reality of failure at work and
299
00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:09,250
in two ways.
One, the fact that failure is
300
00:16:09,250 --> 00:16:12,610
just a part of any kind of
innovative innovative design
301
00:16:12,610 --> 00:16:16,330
process and to center the
reality of failure and
302
00:16:16,330 --> 00:16:19,450
innovation on the other side.
When you role model it as a
303
00:16:19,450 --> 00:16:22,650
leader and you don't just ask
for it, you actually increase
304
00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:25,610
team members sense of
psychological safety which means
305
00:16:25,610 --> 00:16:29,050
their willingness to take risks
and potentially make mistakes
306
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:33,530
without fear of harm or shame.
And for us that was actually one
307
00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:38,410
of our magical catalysts or
unlocks in a really fantastic
308
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,640
run of building and launching
new products for the company
309
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,720
very successfully across L&D,
learning and development,
310
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,680
diversity, equity and inclusion,
early talent and social impact.
311
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,560
It was a multi part team and we
were expected to really move
312
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,440
quickly and build and launch and
we needed to have courage in the
313
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,440
face of failure.
And so the other part of the
314
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,120
playbook was like, how do I
model that courage in the face
315
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,520
of failure and invite that kind
of sharing and learning with the
316
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,180
team?
I love your framework.
317
00:17:05,180 --> 00:17:07,780
Figure out domain expertise,
operational effectiveness,
318
00:17:07,780 --> 00:17:10,819
emotional intelligence for the
people on your team.
319
00:17:10,819 --> 00:17:14,740
Go through your trust building
exercise, fantastic fudge ups.
320
00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:18,940
And so like, is it three months
that you give yourself the
321
00:17:18,940 --> 00:17:22,819
opportunity to do these things
before you go into a strategic
322
00:17:22,819 --> 00:17:25,780
mode and start making decisions
and moving things around?
323
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:29,490
Or how do you play that today?
Each context is different,
324
00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:31,290
right?
So obviously there's the the
325
00:17:31,290 --> 00:17:34,490
canonical first 90 days you
know, approach and I think
326
00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:36,090
there's a lot of wisdom in that
approach.
327
00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:38,810
A lot of your listeners are
going to be high level enough
328
00:17:38,810 --> 00:17:41,090
that they know that you're not
even offered 90 days sometimes.
329
00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:44,530
So one of the things I've done
sometimes.
330
00:17:44,530 --> 00:17:48,610
So for example, at one of my
organizations, I was under some
331
00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:52,290
level of of pressure and
incentive to ship an enterprise
332
00:17:52,290 --> 00:17:54,570
strategy much sooner than 90
days.
333
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,840
And so the only way I could get
there was by pulling my my whole
334
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,720
team together for an offsite
within four weeks of starting.
335
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,040
Now often times you don't pull
your whole team together for
336
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,840
offsite within four weeks of
starting because there's a lot
337
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,320
of other things you're still on
boarding as a new leader.
338
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,640
So how effective is that offsite
even going to be?
339
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,280
But I had to do it in this
moment because there are
340
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,240
creative and risk taking tasks
that flourish when you're all
341
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,720
together in a space that are
harder to do in virtual.
342
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,900
And so the learning I can take
away from this to offer our
343
00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:30,900
listeners today is that dynamism
or agility is really essential
344
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:35,260
as a manager and leader and to
not get locked into set in stone
345
00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:37,900
lift and shift methods.
So if you're a first 90 days
346
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,540
kind of person and you're like,
well this is my model, this is
347
00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:42,380
the way I do it.
And you start an organization,
348
00:18:42,380 --> 00:18:45,500
they go, well, how about the 1st
30 days you fall apart, right,
349
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:47,420
because you're not offered the
runway.
350
00:18:47,660 --> 00:18:50,770
And so I think the agility of
saying okay, so I'm not going to
351
00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:54,370
have 90 days, then how do I act
and behave very differently and
352
00:18:54,370 --> 00:18:58,530
maybe break some other rules and
norms in order to achieve my
353
00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:01,050
goal.
And so generally when you are on
354
00:19:01,050 --> 00:19:02,850
boarding, you don't pull your
whole team together because
355
00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:04,850
you're just not ready to yet,
but maybe you have to flip that
356
00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:07,970
on its head if you need to shift
strategy or product faster.
357
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:12,750
Hey everyone, just a quick pause
on today's episode to tell you
358
00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:16,470
about a new feature that I am so
excited about.
359
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:20,070
We've been working on this one
for quite a while and excited to
360
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:22,150
announce it to the world.
We're calling it meeting
361
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:24,790
guidelines.
So there's all these things that
362
00:19:24,790 --> 00:19:28,590
people already know they should
do when they organize a meeting.
363
00:19:28,790 --> 00:19:31,670
So for example, you should make
sure that you shouldn't invite
364
00:19:31,670 --> 00:19:34,310
too many people.
Or if you're booking a recurring
365
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:37,030
meeting, you probably want to
put an end date on that meeting.
366
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:40,750
Or if you're going to invite
someone to a meeting, you should
367
00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:43,870
probably, you know, if they have
more than 20 hours of meetings
368
00:19:43,870 --> 00:19:47,270
that week, maybe be a little bit
more considerate and ask, should
369
00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:48,830
I really invite that person to
the meeting?
370
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:52,670
So there's a bunch of these
sorts of things that, you know,
371
00:19:52,670 --> 00:19:56,150
you might even know about.
But what happened somehow in
372
00:19:56,190 --> 00:19:59,430
larger organizations is that
people forget all of these
373
00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:01,470
things.
And so that's why we've built
374
00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:03,470
this feature called Meeting
Guidelines.
375
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:07,210
It's super easy to use.
It's a Google Chrome extension,
376
00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:11,210
so if you install it, what will
happen is it will integrate with
377
00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:14,690
your Google Calendar and that
way whenever anyone within your
378
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:17,930
company is about to book a
meeting, these meeting
379
00:20:17,930 --> 00:20:21,290
guidelines will show up.
And make sure that people know
380
00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:23,730
and take a second look at that
meeting that they're about to
381
00:20:23,730 --> 00:20:26,850
book and make sure that it
adheres to these guidelines.
382
00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:30,740
So if you wanna book or within
your company have a no meeting
383
00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:34,860
day or if you want to make sure
that every meeting has an agenda
384
00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:38,020
in advance before it's booked.
So all the different sorts of
385
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:41,420
guidelines that you may want and
they're all obviously highly
386
00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:44,100
configurable because every
company is going to be slightly
387
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,780
different.
But this is the first time that
388
00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:50,900
there is a way that you can get
an entire organization to change
389
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,620
their meeting behavior.
It's something that we've been
390
00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:57,060
working on for a very long time.
Super proud to announce it to
391
00:20:57,060 --> 00:20:59,360
the world.
It's called meeting guidelines.
392
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,880
If you're interested in checking
it out, would love for you to do
393
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,080
that and give us feedback.
You can get to it by going to
394
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,520
fellow dot app slash guidelines.
Again, that's fellow dot app
395
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,000
slash guidelines.
Check it out and let me know
396
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,400
what you think.
Yeah, that's really good advice
397
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,520
and a very good way to think
about it.
398
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,800
For this idea of when to trust
your gut, how to leverage your
399
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,510
team, how to build trust and all
of that.
400
00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:30,550
So one of the common threads in
your career of course has been
401
00:21:30,550 --> 00:21:33,710
DEI.
And one of the things that is
402
00:21:33,710 --> 00:21:38,590
often talked about is just the
business ROI of DEI initiatives.
403
00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:40,990
You've seen this now at a bunch
of different companies.
404
00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:43,750
I'm wondering if you can talk
about, I don't know if there are
405
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:47,870
any anecdotes or examples or
things that you've seen very
406
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:52,930
practically in the numbers of
what kind of business ROI you've
407
00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:55,930
gotten from the initiatives that
you've had across some of the
408
00:21:55,930 --> 00:21:58,010
companies that you've been at?
Sure, sure.
409
00:21:58,010 --> 00:22:00,850
Yeah.
You know, I think that business
410
00:22:00,850 --> 00:22:04,650
ROI is definitely the in the
zeitgeist right of the
411
00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:07,410
conversation.
And for years now, there's been
412
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:12,170
the need to pull DEI towards
being able to demonstrate
413
00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:15,930
business level ROI, right.
And I think taking that language
414
00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:18,570
of business ROI and kind of
unpacking it into a set of
415
00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:20,650
deliverables is really helpful
so.
416
00:22:21,010 --> 00:22:24,810
There are some talent ROI things
that you can focus on, right?
417
00:22:24,810 --> 00:22:28,250
So one way of unpacking the
talent side of this is the
418
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:31,850
reality that I don't use the
word diversity off the network,
419
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:34,050
which you might find
counterintuitive given how long
420
00:22:34,050 --> 00:22:36,250
I've been doing this.
But I don't because I actually
421
00:22:36,530 --> 00:22:38,970
rather think it's more
productive to talk about this in
422
00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:41,050
terms of relevance or
complexity.
423
00:22:41,050 --> 00:22:44,530
And what I mean by that is if
you help an organization
424
00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:48,050
understand that the complexity
of its people.
425
00:22:48,590 --> 00:22:52,550
Helps it be relevant in an
inherently diverse world, then
426
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:55,790
achievements in increasing the
complexity of your workforce
427
00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:58,830
actually allow you to measure
that not as some sort of
428
00:22:58,830 --> 00:23:02,230
performative optics driven.
Hey look, look at our website.
429
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:05,630
We have more different faces Now
that's not the side of diversity
430
00:23:05,630 --> 00:23:07,470
I'm interested in.
That's not the side of diversity
431
00:23:07,470 --> 00:23:09,270
that honestly equals business
ROI.
432
00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:12,070
The side of diversity that
equals business ROI in the
433
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:16,860
talent space is an alignment.
Between the people that make
434
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,980
your company, its services, its
products, its decisions and the
435
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:24,860
inherently diverse and complex
world that that organization is
436
00:23:24,860 --> 00:23:27,300
trying to serve.
So that's one set of
437
00:23:27,660 --> 00:23:30,700
measurements that programs and
services increase.
438
00:23:30,700 --> 00:23:32,740
And I can, I'll double click on
a second, right.
439
00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:36,100
But on the other side of this,
there are performance.
440
00:23:36,260 --> 00:23:38,340
RO, I's right.
And what I mean by that is.
441
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,920
I don't really use the language
of activate and inclusion as
442
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,080
often anymore.
Obviously it's part of the DE
443
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,040
and I equity is the E and
inclusion is the I.
444
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,160
But these things are just
investments in an organization's
445
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,560
worldclass performance.
If you are a manager or a leader
446
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,200
of an organization, and one of
the things you care about is
447
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,040
allowing your people to do the
best work of their lives, which
448
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,120
I've never met, a manager that
doesn't want their team to do
449
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:06,000
the best work of their life,
then equity and inclusion are
450
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,490
inherent investments.
In Unlocking Peak Performance
451
00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:12,850
for Your People and there's just
a massive empirical body of
452
00:24:12,850 --> 00:24:15,970
social science research that
shows this, that when people are
453
00:24:15,970 --> 00:24:19,930
supported to not simply be in
the room, but actually be in the
454
00:24:19,930 --> 00:24:22,890
room, feel connected, have a
high sense of belonging, feel
455
00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:24,890
safe, They actually do better
work.
456
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:28,930
And so first we need to reframe
DE and I as.
457
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:33,270
Relevance and performance when
you do that, the KPI's are the
458
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:36,310
key performance indicators,
waterfall very naturally from
459
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:39,950
there because then when you
enact talent programs.
460
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:43,390
So for example, on the talent
side, work that I've done that I
461
00:24:43,390 --> 00:24:46,510
think has been particularly
effective is thinking about
462
00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:49,950
talent attraction and talent
acquisition in different
463
00:24:49,950 --> 00:24:53,790
strategic buckets and for early
stage organizations, a lot of
464
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:55,750
organizations haven't done this
work yet.
465
00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:57,430
So when I'm coaching and
advising.
466
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,200
My clients that are in smaller
organizations, startups, earlier
467
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,080
stage organizations, often times
the the consultative work is in
468
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,320
parsing up the where the
calories are going because
469
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,640
there's only so many budgetary
dollars and human hours to put
470
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,720
into this.
And so how do I get really
471
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,240
strategic about talent
attraction and talent
472
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,600
acquisition AS2 very different
vectors and talent attraction is
473
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,400
about the idea of planting seeds
upstream in that pipeline space.
474
00:25:26,780 --> 00:25:29,220
It's not about the wreck that
you just posted the job opening
475
00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:31,700
you just posted.
It's actually about where you're
476
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:35,340
telling your talent story and
how you tell that talent story
477
00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:37,700
in ways that are meaningful to
different audiences.
478
00:25:38,260 --> 00:25:42,860
So if you are an employer that
is really interested in hiring
479
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:46,860
people with disabilities and
neurodiverse folks, how you tell
480
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:48,980
your story, your talent story
matters.
481
00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:52,620
And where you tell your talent
story matters because there are
482
00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:55,490
digital.
Watering holes, if you will.
483
00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:59,530
Digital campfires where people
with different abilities and
484
00:25:59,530 --> 00:26:01,810
neuro diverse communities have
gathered to make sense of
485
00:26:01,810 --> 00:26:05,490
things, to network, to share
their information and your
486
00:26:05,530 --> 00:26:08,250
ability to tell your talent
story in those spaces in ways
487
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:12,090
that are authentic and resonant
with those audiences will result
488
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:15,770
in a better compositional mix in
your top of funnel when you do
489
00:26:15,770 --> 00:26:18,370
move into talent acquisition.
Which is the mechanics of
490
00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:21,490
posting a role and searching a
role in interviewing for a role
491
00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:23,610
in hiring roles, right?
And so I think.
492
00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:27,540
The relevance tactics, right,
the diversity tactics that I've
493
00:26:27,540 --> 00:26:30,660
put in place that have helped
organizations actually move this
494
00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:33,660
forward towards business ROI,
first and foremost are about
495
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:37,260
parsing the tactical buckets
towards talent attraction as one
496
00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:39,420
set of investments in talent
acquisition as a different one.
497
00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:42,020
And then even if you want, I can
give you examples on the
498
00:26:42,140 --> 00:26:46,220
performance side of ways that
you can really sort of get into
499
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:49,620
the tactical functional space of
driving performance for your
500
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:51,500
workforce.
Yeah, I mean, I loved your
501
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:55,340
example of let's not just put
more diverse faces on our
502
00:26:55,340 --> 00:26:58,340
website.
What are the relevant places and
503
00:26:58,340 --> 00:27:02,020
dividing those two buckets from
a talent perspective make a lot
504
00:27:02,020 --> 00:27:04,340
of sense to me.
I do want to hear some examples
505
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,950
on performance before we go into
performance.
506
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:09,430
I mean, you've also advised a
lot of startups.
507
00:27:09,550 --> 00:27:12,190
You talked a little bit about
how early stage organizations
508
00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:14,470
can think about hiring
strategies.
509
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:17,710
One question is if you're early
stages of a company, you're
510
00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:20,910
building up your company and
you're thinking about DEI and
511
00:27:20,910 --> 00:27:22,590
talent and all those things in
one.
512
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:26,990
I mean, what are your thoughts
around, you know, should DEI be
513
00:27:26,990 --> 00:27:30,830
a separate role in the way that
it is at a large number of
514
00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:34,950
companies or should it be more
core and central?
515
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:37,870
Should the person with the Dai
experience actually be running
516
00:27:37,870 --> 00:27:40,030
all of talent?
Do you have any thoughts around
517
00:27:40,030 --> 00:27:43,830
just how you might organize your
company if you have the
518
00:27:43,830 --> 00:27:46,550
opportunity to do so?
That's a great question.
519
00:27:46,550 --> 00:27:49,590
I think that I'm pretty
pragmatic and I'm just realist
520
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:52,990
at heart, right.
So realistically, organizations
521
00:27:53,270 --> 00:27:56,070
generally don't have the
headcount latitude to bring on a
522
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:59,310
dedicated DEI asset until
they're scaling to a certain
523
00:27:59,310 --> 00:28:02,190
point, maybe past 500 headcount
and.
524
00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:06,250
So many of the organizations I
work with don't have the luxury
525
00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:08,330
of having a dedicated DEI asset,
right?
526
00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:11,690
And so there's a couple of
different ways to solve for the
527
00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:14,770
notion of subject matter,
expertise in forming things,
528
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:16,250
right.
And and so let's zoom up a
529
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:17,650
level.
What are we actually solving for
530
00:28:17,650 --> 00:28:19,970
here, right?
First and foremost, do you want
531
00:28:19,970 --> 00:28:23,810
to make sure that people who sit
in key decision making roles
532
00:28:24,050 --> 00:28:27,690
have a level of awareness and
sophistication?
533
00:28:28,030 --> 00:28:30,190
Around their DEI decision
making.
534
00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:35,310
So that DEI as values or ideas
are expressed through the
535
00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:38,430
verticals that they manage.
You can achieve that without
536
00:28:38,430 --> 00:28:40,150
bringing on dedicated DEI
assets.
537
00:28:40,150 --> 00:28:43,830
It's just about searching for
leaders that embody this work
538
00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:45,830
well.
And actually some of the leaders
539
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:48,470
that are best positioned to make
this change across the
540
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:51,030
organization don't have DEI in
the title.
541
00:28:51,390 --> 00:28:54,710
If you have a Chief people
officer, that really gets this
542
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:57,110
work.
And you're an early stage or
543
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:59,990
smaller organization, you're
going to be okay.
544
00:29:00,110 --> 00:29:02,870
And then there are ways that you
can partner right, with an
545
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:07,030
external supporter to extend
capacity or add in thought
546
00:29:07,030 --> 00:29:10,630
leadership or strategic advising
around very specific things like
547
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:13,910
when you're trying to scale
hiring into a new geographic or
548
00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:17,190
cultural space or when you're
trying to launch a product into
549
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:19,630
a new demographic market or
cultural market, right.
550
00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,190
You might need strategic
advising in specific moments
551
00:29:22,190 --> 00:29:23,990
that exceed your in house
capacity.
552
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,320
But in house, I think that
bringing in people that have a
553
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,840
demonstrated track record of
centering DEI in their work
554
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,800
without it needing to be their
title is the single best level
555
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,840
up you can bring your
organization early stage.
556
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,600
Second thing is fractional,
right?
557
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,840
I think more and more you're
seeing fractional roles where it
558
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,160
is a head of Talent acquisition
and inclusion.
559
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:51,490
Or a head of L&D&DEI.
Or, you know, some array where
560
00:29:51,490 --> 00:29:54,090
you're bringing the DEI piece in
in a fractional way.
561
00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:57,250
And for early stage and midsize
organizations, this makes a lot
562
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:58,930
of sense when your head count
constrained.
563
00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:04,490
The catch here is that in the
same way that you can't tack
564
00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:08,490
multiculturalism on as a special
unit in school, at the end of
565
00:30:08,490 --> 00:30:11,190
everything.
But the best way to learn about
566
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:14,230
the reality that the everything
is multicultural is actually to
567
00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:17,710
have it read thread or be a
membrane that sits across all of
568
00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:19,870
your learning.
When I sometimes I see these
569
00:30:19,870 --> 00:30:22,710
fractional job descriptions and
and my call out to the industry
570
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:26,190
right now is that you can look
at some of these head of people
571
00:30:26,270 --> 00:30:30,910
and inclusion jobs and it reads
95% of the way down as a generic
572
00:30:30,910 --> 00:30:33,470
head of people role.
And then at the end they go and
573
00:30:33,470 --> 00:30:36,630
keep an eye out for DEI.
It's like that's insufficient
574
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,230
and what they're doing there is
there.
575
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:41,630
That's virtue signaling.
Performative, and not actually
576
00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:43,990
accomplishing the goal of a
fractionally designed leader.
577
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:47,190
So if you're going to do a
fractional role, then it has to
578
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:50,990
be baked in through the entire
job description and not tacked
579
00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:53,990
on as a the icing on the cake
because it just doesn't work
580
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:54,980
that way.
Yeah.
581
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:57,540
No, that's a very good way to
put it.
582
00:30:57,540 --> 00:31:01,780
And I've seen this at companies
that I've worked at where you do
583
00:31:01,780 --> 00:31:04,180
have people who are passionate
about the topic.
584
00:31:04,220 --> 00:31:07,180
And again, if you're before that
stage, it's really just
585
00:31:07,180 --> 00:31:12,860
championing them and allowing
them to maybe speak up, maybe do
586
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:15,940
a little bit of training or just
take some initiatives or take
587
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:18,060
the lead.
I mean, especially at a lot of
588
00:31:18,060 --> 00:31:20,820
growing organizations, there's
all sorts of things where you
589
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:24,620
don't have maybe the resources
to get a full time resource, but
590
00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:27,860
there are people that may be
good at that particular thing
591
00:31:27,860 --> 00:31:30,100
and so you can definitely
champion those folks.
592
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:33,140
I did want to get your examples
on performance though.
593
00:31:33,140 --> 00:31:36,060
I think like that.
That would be really interesting
594
00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:39,380
for everyone to hear as well.
Just to recenter, as in that
595
00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:42,620
part of the conversation, right,
the truism that I that I've seen
596
00:31:42,620 --> 00:31:44,940
play out over and over and over
again in organizations and then
597
00:31:44,940 --> 00:31:47,820
you can also find in the scaled
social science research on the
598
00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:52,240
subject, is that inclusion plus?
Belonging and psychological
599
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,920
safety equals performance and
and there are controlled studies
600
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,360
and observational studies that
demonstrate this over and over
601
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,520
again.
That teams that are diverse and
602
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,560
inclusive and safe will
outperform homogeneous or unsafe
603
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,110
teams over and over again.
And so tactics that actually
604
00:32:10,110 --> 00:32:13,430
result in a shift in the
performance outcomes of your
605
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:17,710
organization are things like
training managers.
606
00:32:17,710 --> 00:32:20,270
And this is so salient to this
podcast, right?
607
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:24,950
Making sure that your managers
are ready with a toolbox of
608
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:29,710
managing teams towards site,
measurable gains in team
609
00:32:29,710 --> 00:32:32,470
connection, sense of belonging
and psychological safety.
610
00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:36,320
These are three core.
Measurable social science
611
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,520
variables.
You can actually measure a
612
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640
team's index on these things and
move the needle over time.
613
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,480
And there are manager behaviors
that are proven to turn up the
614
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,640
dial on these things or turn
down the dial on these things.
615
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,040
And oftentimes in organizations,
we tend to put people in
616
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,560
management roles.
I mean, this is the classic like
617
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,280
Peter Principle, right?
We elevate people into
618
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,200
management who are really good,
as I see.
619
00:33:00,810 --> 00:33:03,850
And then we just hope it works
out and particularly in early
620
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:05,890
stage organizations, this
happens all the time, right.
621
00:33:05,890 --> 00:33:09,490
And then when we invest in
skilling managers, a lot of the
622
00:33:09,490 --> 00:33:12,970
first level investment is in
compliance based managerial
623
00:33:13,090 --> 00:33:15,090
skill sets.
So how to do the annual
624
00:33:15,090 --> 00:33:19,530
performance review, how to not
trigger ER cases by following
625
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:21,970
the law, and how to not, You
know, like if there's sort of
626
00:33:22,210 --> 00:33:26,210
raising the floor on minimum
viable managerial behaviors.
627
00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:29,130
That's all nice once you've got
that in place.
628
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:33,740
The next step is around
balancing your manager's ability
629
00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:36,740
to manage team performance
through task based management
630
00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:38,660
right?
So making sure your managers
631
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:40,740
know how to coach towards
operational effectiveness.
632
00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:42,820
It's really important management
skill set.
633
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,680
Simultaneously, we have to teach
our managers how to lead people
634
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,960
to do the best work of their
lives.
635
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,480
And in that toolbox are a set of
managerial behaviors that turn
636
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,600
up the dial on team connection,
belonging, psychological safety.
637
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,240
And so, like the work I do with
intact teams when I'm in house,
638
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,240
oftentimes is the reskilling of
managers around those kinds of
639
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,200
behaviors that turn up the dial
on those team performance
640
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,159
variables.
Or when I'm partnering with an
641
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,840
organization, that's the kind of
work I do with intact managerial
642
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,980
teams.
Like your VP or SVP layer or the
643
00:34:13,980 --> 00:34:17,060
team that's managing a new Geo
expansion into Eastern Europe.
644
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:18,780
You know, if that's the market
you're trying to crack.
645
00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:21,860
Just knowing having that skill
set in place from the start
646
00:34:21,860 --> 00:34:24,699
makes such a difference in the
way that you build the team
647
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:27,780
culture going forward.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
648
00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:30,100
At the end of the day, when
you're talking about it, it's
649
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,420
not really coming at it from
hey, let me help you with dei.
650
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:36,219
It's let me help increase the
performance of your team.
651
00:34:36,730 --> 00:34:40,330
And in order to be a better
coach, you just have to also
652
00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:42,929
keep in mind dei.
So it's just part of the
653
00:34:42,929 --> 00:34:45,090
toolkit.
If you want to be a great
654
00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:48,170
performance coach, a performance
enhancer, which is what a
655
00:34:48,170 --> 00:34:50,730
manager should be, right?
It should, because the manager
656
00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:52,810
exists, the team should perform
better.
657
00:34:52,969 --> 00:34:56,449
If you remove the manager, in
theory the team shouldn't do as
658
00:34:56,449 --> 00:34:58,130
well.
The manager should be an
659
00:34:58,130 --> 00:35:01,590
enhancer of that team.
And so yeah, I think this is a
660
00:35:01,590 --> 00:35:04,510
really good way to look at it.
You know, before we hit record,
661
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:07,150
I do want to make sure to talk
about this just a little bit.
662
00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:11,190
Is the environment has shifted a
little bit and it seems that
663
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:14,550
when you kind of look across
maybe in the US, maybe in some
664
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:17,470
other countries as well, it
seems like there is some
665
00:35:17,470 --> 00:35:23,110
polarity and it's resulting in
maybe some places being less
666
00:35:23,110 --> 00:35:27,070
committed to D I I wonder if if
you're seeing any of that or
667
00:35:27,390 --> 00:35:29,230
what are your thoughts on the
matter?
668
00:35:29,740 --> 00:35:33,860
Well, so I'm broadcasting right
now from Austin, TX, a state in
669
00:35:33,860 --> 00:35:35,380
the United States.
And I know you have a very
670
00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:38,100
international audience, so I
always want to be transparent
671
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,380
about, you know, my locality.
I think that from my vantage
672
00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:46,260
point, there's a a very real set
of tensions playing out in the
673
00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:51,180
US right now around what the
role of DEI is in our society,
674
00:35:51,420 --> 00:35:54,580
both in the corporate space and
the education space, all going
675
00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:57,140
all the way down to kindergarten
level education, going through,
676
00:35:57,140 --> 00:35:59,020
you know, high school and to
collegiate education.
677
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,400
What kinds of books should be in
libraries?
678
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:03,960
What should be permissible on
social media?
679
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,840
And not so in just about every
aspect of life?
680
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,520
There is a litigation happening
in the formal and informal sense
681
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,640
of of what is helpful or not in
our society.
682
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,240
And I think for me, as somebody
that's been committed to this
683
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:22,160
work for a very long time, it's
really critical for me to remind
684
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,120
people that I'm engaged with in
my personal life, in my
685
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,680
professional life, that the
organizations that I'm in or the
686
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,750
organizations that I coach.
That the fundamental premise of
687
00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:35,750
human dignity work, with DEI
being another way to frame that
688
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:39,390
work is that we're actually
trying to expand the pie.
689
00:36:39,710 --> 00:36:43,590
This isn't about shrinking 1
person's slice of pie so that
690
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:46,110
someone else can have a bigger
slice of pie.
691
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:49,910
Anybody who really understands
this work and drives this in a
692
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:53,430
meaningful and productive way
knows that when you commit to
693
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:57,150
the tactics and strategies
correctly, we actually lift the
694
00:36:57,150 --> 00:37:00,390
floor for everyone.
To do better work in
695
00:37:00,390 --> 00:37:02,550
organizations, to feel better
about their work in
696
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:04,590
organizations, to trust their
managers more.
697
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:07,190
For leaders to be able to show
up with authenticity and
698
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:10,350
vulnerability as opposed to
living in sort of the prison of
699
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:14,190
performing perfection, which is
a terrible place to lead from.
700
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:18,950
There's so many ways that that
these investments help people do
701
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:22,990
better work and enjoy their
experience of their career more
702
00:37:23,390 --> 00:37:27,790
in ways that are just wins for
everyone and are also necessary
703
00:37:27,790 --> 00:37:30,930
investments.
To correct for the reality of
704
00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:34,770
historic exclusion, historic
vulnerability, historic
705
00:37:34,770 --> 00:37:38,210
communities being underserved
that have to be corrected for if
706
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:40,490
we are going to have equity in
the workplace.
707
00:37:40,810 --> 00:37:44,930
So for me when I look at the
scrum right that just the
708
00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:46,890
unbelievable clash that's
happening right now.
709
00:37:47,050 --> 00:37:49,890
One of the things I noticed is
that people who feel very
710
00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:53,810
activated and threatened have
come to misunderstand these
711
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:57,770
issues as somebody is taking
away part of my pie.
712
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,320
They're trying to make my slice
of pie smaller so that that
713
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,680
group or that person gets a
bigger slice of pie.
714
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,360
And one of the reasons they've
come to feel that way is because
715
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,120
they're actually being told
that's what's happening and I
716
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,840
have to be courageous to name
that.
717
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,000
In this moment, there's a very
active campaign to position DEI
718
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,120
as taking away something from
some groups in order to give to
719
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,380
others and.
By and large, that's not what's
720
00:38:24,380 --> 00:38:27,420
going on.
And so the corrective necessary
721
00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:31,940
here that is just about accuracy
is around the reality that this
722
00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:34,260
is a generative model of human
dignity.
723
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:38,820
It's a necessary correction to
historical injustices and
724
00:38:38,820 --> 00:38:42,820
practices and that when done
correctly, we actually lift the
725
00:38:42,820 --> 00:38:46,540
floor and unlock flourishing for
all members of the organization.
726
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,960
Yeah, I mean, I just go back to
what we started talking about,
727
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,000
which is just the, you know,
performance angle.
728
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,320
I think when you think about it
that way, it's just you make the
729
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,840
pie a lot bigger and I think
let's just make the pie bigger.
730
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,080
Well, I'll get more pie.
Yeah, exactly.
731
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,000
And I I think a lot of these
things are, it's always the
732
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,200
framing.
A lot of things are pitched as
733
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,560
zero sum games where they're
positive sum.
734
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,000
In reality.
I think most things in in life
735
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,320
can be positive sum.
It's just you have to look at it
736
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,600
from the right angle.
So Vijay, this has been a super
737
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,000
interesting discussion.
We've talked about everything
738
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,040
from how you evaluate your teams
from domain expertise,
739
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,160
operational effectiveness,
emotional intelligence, how to
740
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,040
build trust within your teams,
how you think about DEI, which
741
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,760
is you know from the lens of
relevance and performance.
742
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,200
We've talked about bucketing,
attraction and acquisition and
743
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,840
so many other things, including
like championing people within
744
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,000
your organization that just have
the right mindset about DEI and
745
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,220
so excellent conversation.
The question we always like to
746
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:52,660
end on is for all the managers
and leaders constantly looking
747
00:39:52,660 --> 00:39:55,820
to get better at their craft,
are there any final tips,
748
00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:58,740
tricks, or words of wisdom that
you would leave them with?
749
00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:01,380
Oh, yes.
Well, thank you for letting me
750
00:40:01,380 --> 00:40:04,860
have the last word, Aiden.
So I love a quote from Annie
751
00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:08,020
McKee, who has a book on
resident leadership that I use a
752
00:40:08,020 --> 00:40:11,540
lot with individuals and teams
and organizations that I coach.
753
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:14,900
And she writes that significant
professional growth.
754
00:40:15,310 --> 00:40:18,510
Without personal transformation
is impossible.
755
00:40:19,550 --> 00:40:22,310
And let me just double down that
right Significant professional
756
00:40:22,310 --> 00:40:25,150
growth without personal
transformation is impossible.
757
00:40:25,550 --> 00:40:27,830
And the reason I like this quote
is it's one, it's really
758
00:40:27,830 --> 00:40:30,350
strongly voiced, right?
The what are you using the word
759
00:40:30,350 --> 00:40:33,190
impossible?
It makes people pause and go,
760
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:35,910
whoa, that's a strong claim.
That's a productive pause.
761
00:40:36,030 --> 00:40:39,240
The conviction that personal
transformation is actually the
762
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:42,040
catalyst for successful
leadership is proven out time
763
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,680
and time again.
You read anybody's book on
764
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,360
leadership that's gone on to do
great things for their company,
765
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,920
their organization or the world.
Personal transformation is at
766
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,240
the heart of that journey.
And so ultimately, like I truly
767
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,720
believe and I want to leave our
listeners today with this notion
768
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:00,680
that improving your craft as a
manager is in some part about
769
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,390
improving yourself and the best
leaders.
770
00:41:03,390 --> 00:41:06,790
The best managers use all of
their senses combined with
771
00:41:06,830 --> 00:41:10,350
intellectual and emotional
intelligence to drive innovation
772
00:41:10,750 --> 00:41:13,190
and to drive change within
organizations.
773
00:41:13,470 --> 00:41:17,150
If you want to inspire people to
follow you as a leader which is
774
00:41:17,190 --> 00:41:20,110
instrumental to be a leader,
then you have to be invested in
775
00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:21,950
personal growth.
And if you want to be able to
776
00:41:21,950 --> 00:41:26,720
recover from failure, which is a
necessary growth mindset to live
777
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,040
in a world where failure is
unavoidable, then personal
778
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,240
transformation is requisite.
And so I'll end there with this
779
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,200
notion of centering personal
transformation, and I've really
780
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,920
enjoyed the conversation today.
Great advice and great place to
781
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,680
end in Vijay.
Thanks so much for doing this,
782
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,210
absolutely.
And that's it for today.
783
00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:48,370
Thank you so much for tuning
into this episode of the Super
784
00:41:48,370 --> 00:41:51,330
Managers Podcast.
You can find the show notes and
785
00:41:51,330 --> 00:41:56,370
transcript at www.fellow.app
Supermanagers.
786
00:41:56,770 --> 00:42:00,570
If you like the content, be sure
to rate, review, and subscribe
787
00:42:00,650 --> 00:42:03,530
so you can get notified when we
post the next episode.
788
00:42:03,850 --> 00:42:07,610
And please tell your friends and
fellow managers about it.
789
00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:10,370
It'd be awesome if you could
help us spread the word about
790
00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:12,130
the show.
See you next time.