Special Inbetweenisode: Celebrating 3 Years of Supermanagers with Manuela Barcenas and Alexandra Sunderland from Fellow.app

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150 episodes in we're still
learning will still producing
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and hopefully we will have
continued to have hundreds more
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and again like my favorite thing
and hopefully, you know, the
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audience, everybody the
listeners.
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Thank you all for being such
supporters of the show.
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What I will say.
Hopefully, what super managers
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is also, you know, very useful
for is figure out the episodes
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that really make a change for
you and maybe we listen to them.
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Because, again, when you re
listen to those episodes, the
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same exact A different moment in
your management career, you'll
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get different learnings and you
know, I think the other thing
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that we do a lot at fellow is we
do share the episodes and we do
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talk about them so it's very
interesting.
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Listen to the same episodes,
everybody's going to learn
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different things from the exact
same episode so it's very
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interesting to have everybody.
Listen but then also comment and
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learn from each other's
learnings and examples to really
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let those lessons sink in.
Welcome to the super managers
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podcast where we Interview
leaders from all walks of life
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to tease out.
The habits, thought patterns,
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learnings and experiences that
help them be extraordinary at
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the fine craft of management.
Our goal is to bring you the
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lessons in the insights so that
you don't have to learn through
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your own mistakes but so that
you can shortcut your way to
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being a great leader.
This podcast is brought to you
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by fellow a software platform
that helps managers in their
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teams, collaborate on meeting,
agendas track action.
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Eames and turn chaotic meetings
into productive work sessions.
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Check it out at www.elllo.org
Alexandra and Manuela good to
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see you both Hayden.
It's so exciting to be here.
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I know Alexander has been a
guest on the super managers
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podcast but I haven't so it's
really exciting to finally be on
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this side of it.
Oh yeah, you know it's you and I
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interact so much on the podcast
that I just Him that you were a
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guest before.
And so, but yes, Alexandra has
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been a guest episode 124 men,
Willa you and the team and
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Camilla and everybody else
helped produce a podcast.
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And so I should start by saying
welcome to everybody because we
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should explain what we're doing
which is this is our three-year
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anniversary of the podcast and
we thought that we could do
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something fun and bring some of
the people who've been involved
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in creating the podcast and
doing all the work.
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There's a lot.
Of people in the background that
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work very, very hard to make
this show a possibility.
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And so we thought that we could
do something fun today and come
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together and talk about some of
the biggest lessons that we've
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learned on the podcast, some of
our favorite episodes, what
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we've learned from it and then
we're going to debate it a
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little bit and try to convince
you the audience on which clip
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is the most memorable to you.
So we've each chosen, two of
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them and we're going to go
through, we're going to play the
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clip, we're going to talk about
why it was so meaningful.
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For each of us.
And then yeah, we're going to
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debate with each other and
hopefully have a great
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discussion around it.
I am so excited for this because
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it was I went back and listened
to a bunch of super managers
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episodes again, and I've
listened to all of them in the
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first place.
And what I realize is that it
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was, it's been really fun
listening to these episodes this
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whole time because I've learned
a lot from all the different
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guests, but I've also learned a
lot about you aaden, which is
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really fun and I find the super
managers episodes are really
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good.
Victor's for what's coming for
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us at work and it's really
interesting hearing.
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You ask follow-up questions and
seeing like what you latch onto
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from what people are saying and
hearing the tone of voice change
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could whenever I can hear that,
you're really really interested
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in something.
I know like that is going to pop
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up at work and sure enough a
week after the episode is
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released there will be something
in the weekly summary email.
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You send everyone here about a
learning that you had and you
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won't directly reference the
episode but I'll know it's
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coming from Super managers.
And I find it really funny like
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listening to the episodes and
figuring out what's going to
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happen at work next.
You know, it's so funny that you
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caught me.
It's one of those things that I
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tell all of my friends which is
that if nobody listens to this
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podcast at all, I would still do
it because I get so much value
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from a personally and not only,
I mean, for the audience, not
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only do I obviously do the
interview and, you know, read
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the questions and do all that
stuff.
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But I also read listen to the
episodes because I find Even
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when I really listen to them, I
learned something that maybe I
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missed the first time.
I'm excited for us to dive in,
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who wants to go first.
I'm happy to start.
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So this was really hard to pick,
but I think the first one I want
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to talk about is episode number
136, which was Tamara
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berkovichi, who's the VP of
engineering at box, and I think
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I really liked this episode
because I'm also an engineering
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and so I really latched onto her
story here.
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But she talked about how she
started at box as an engineer
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and Your way up through the
ranks became manager director,
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VP of engineering.
I really enjoyed that story
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because, you know, I started at
follow as well as an engineer
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and then Commander senior
manager.
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Now, I'm here as a director of
engineering, but what I really
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liked about this episode that
changed a lot about how I
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approach project planning is
that she talked about how
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companies have this tendency to
take on large Evergreen projects
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with no, clear goal and things.
Don't always go.
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Go.
Well, so for example, every
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engineering team ever has
probably taken on some sort of
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project that has some goal like
make performance better.
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We've had projects like that
here at fellows, well where the
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goal is just you know, we want
to be more performant and
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because there's no clear goal,
nobody really knows what exactly
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to do, what the definition of
done is and then the project
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kind of goes on forever and ever
and ever.
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And it's not really clear to
others what's going on.
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And the example that she gave is
at box, there was a project
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around doing a re-platform but
because nobody knew what are we
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done?
It didn't go so well and I think
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we have a clip here of that.
I think as Engineers we look at
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our systems and we see all the
problems and we see all the
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things that aren't working as
well.
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And and I've seen many cases and
myself been in this position.
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So we're you know, an engineer
will come and say this.
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This service.
This platform, this component,
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whatever it is has accumulated.
A lot of technical debt,
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obviously, it's so problematic,
maybe it's even reasoned.
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Maybe they could say things
like, it's not performing well
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or it's hard to make changes or,
and, you know, there's a lot of
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bugs, and there's, like, a
laundry list of things that are
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wrong.
And no surprise, because here's
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a laundry list of things that
are bad about this architecture,
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this implementation.
Our goal is to fix it, that's so
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unspecified.
Fix.
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What why like what of all the
things you listed out is
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actually important enough to go
spin up this effort.
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What is the concrete it?
What's your definition of being
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done?
I think a lot of these like
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definition of done and these
little sort of agile phrases get
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thrown around a lot and
sometimes they almost lose their
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meetings because we say them so
often.
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But, but if you're venturing off
on a big effort, what is the
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concrete way in which you assess
that you're done?
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Re-architecting to make
something better is completely
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amorphous it.
Is it is?
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It is a Continuum.
There's no such thing as a
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perfect system.
As soon as you shift code, it
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starts aging.
That is a natural part of
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technology and how it works.
And so you have to get a lot
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more crisp.
For example to say, we are not
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meeting our uptime guarantees
for this component.
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Our goal is that we can hit
those with consistency, right?
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And so now if someone comes back
to you with a proposal to
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improve the performance, you can
say, okay great idea but not
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really To that goal.
This is not about performance,
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this is about availability,
right?
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And so, it just lets you focus
in the work and make sure that
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everyone is making decisions
that are aligned with that same
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goal because actually, you know,
if you want to capture what
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leadership is, you can't control
what every person on the team is
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doing, its just that's an
impossibility from a scale
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perspective and also if you
tried it would be a an
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incredibly limiting bottleneck
on your organization, right?
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So You're going to have a ton of
people that are working on this
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shared effort and they're going
to be making independent
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decisions at their scope.
Whatever that scope is every
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single day and those decisions
are either going to align
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together and be synergistic to
deliver an outcome, or they're
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each going to be pulling in
slightly different directions.
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So if you set off on a make it
better project and you have one
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person who mainly is looking at
performance and one person who's
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looking at Clarity of code are
Texture and how readable it is.
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And one person that's trying to
impact availability.
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And one person that's optimizing
cost, who knows what you'll get
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as an outcome and who knows how
you will assess whether that's
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good?
And who knows?
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If they'll even realize that
they're working on different
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goals and so getting very, very
concrete, what is the measurable
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business outcome that you are
going to deliver, why is it
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critical that you do that?
Like why does it even make sense
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to spin up this effort?
And how are you going to assess
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that you hit it?
Ideally again, measurable?
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Is a definition of a clear goal
as opposed to a directional
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theme of making something
better, or improving something,
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or just something that's a bit
more amorphous.
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I really appreciated hearing
this because it sounds so
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obvious in retrospect that every
project should have some sort of
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goal.
And everyone should have an
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understanding of what that is,
but we weren't necessarily doing
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that.
All is in practice.
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And so, after listening to that
episode, it was very relevant to
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me in the moment, like you're
saying, you didn't because In
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the middle of planning out, our
projects coming up, and we had
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some projects that were thinking
of that follow this pattern of
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no clear goal.
And so the next day I went into
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work and immediately.
Saddling.
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New.
No, we can't do this.
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Like, we have to Define exactly
what is this mean.
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And it was so interesting,
bringing all these people into
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the conversation and figuring
that out.
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Because by bringing that up, I
found out that everybody had a
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different idea of what done
meant and so we would have all
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been tackling the same project
from different angles.
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And probably never would have
really come to a consensus as to
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when the project is done and
ready to go.
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So I really like that at the
engineering.
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The example she gave was
engineering specific, but I
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think it's probably relevant to
any area of the company where
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you can always have projects or
problems.
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You're solving like that.
It just made such a big impact
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on how we plan projects.
I really appreciated that
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episode.
Yeah, I can think of so many
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examples.
Manuela, do you have an example
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or like how do you think about
that and the marketing world?
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Like are there projects like
that?
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That don't have clear outcomes
that you've ever come across a
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hundred percent.
But I think that also, by
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listening to this episode and a
couple others on the podcast,
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I've realized the importance of
being extremely clear.
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Or if you remember, from episode
41, being super fucking clear,
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which is what Emily's?
And Jonathan Nightingale told us
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to do as managers.
So, yes, going back to your
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question.
I think there's been projects
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where We probably wearing as
clear as we should have been.
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In terms of the Milestones are
in terms of the deliverables and
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directly responsible individuals
for each deliverable in that
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project.
But now I can say we're getting
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more organized and we write
project briefs, we always assign
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responsibility, individuals and
deadlines.
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And this has all been thanks to
a lot of learnings from from
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Super managers.
So I already gave you a hint for
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what one of the episodes that I
want to.
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Convince the audience to go back
and listen to, I was listening
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to it this morning before this
call.
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And in that episode, they say
that a lot of managers need to
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own the manager role.
And owning, that role also,
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means understanding the power
behind the title, and the job.
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And understanding that, if you
join a meeting, or if you share
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ideas with other people, they're
probably going to run and try to
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execute on that as quickly as
they can because their manager
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gave them this idea.
Are because there man Under said
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that this would be a great thing
to do.
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So I think one takeaway for me
from this episode episode 41,
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was that first of all, we need
to be very careful with the way
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we share ideas and the way we
share new projects with the team
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and be very clear about what is
expected of them.
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But also, this concept of owning
the manager role because one
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thing that really resonated with
me from this episode and like
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you said, it all depends on the
moment of your career where
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you're add.
Something that really resonated
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with me.
Was when someone was appear and
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then you become their manager, a
lot of managers Middle East and
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Jonathan said, make the mistake
of saying, oh, nothing's
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changed.
We're still peers.
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Like nothing has changed between
us but they talked about this
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concept of owning your job and
saying, hey this might be
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awkward but I'm your manager
now.
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So our relationship is going to
change.
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So this episode has so many
great nuggets.
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I want to see here the quote
right now where Melissa says
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that we should all get
comfortable with This concept of
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being a boss.
Check it out.
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Earlier my management career, I
found it really uncomfortable to
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be a boss.
It is it's a really
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uncomfortable thing for a lot of
people this shift from going
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from, I'm up here, we work
together and there's no power
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Dynamic to I'm now in charge of
you.
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The, there's an inclination to
give that power away as quickly
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as possible.
And so, the first time I manage
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somebody who is more senior than
me in career experience and more
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senior than me and age as
quickly as possible.
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I wanted to be like nothing's
changed.
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You just do what you do, what
you do.
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It's great but I Just sort of
step out and sort of be on the
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sidelines and not really manage.
And I think anytime you as a
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leader or at least for sort of
for my own career, anytime I as
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a leader specifically, put down
aspects of management and said
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like those are tools that are
management tools but I'm not
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going to use them.
There's a there's a good kick to
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ask why.
And so, in terms of things, I
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got wrong really early on just
just pretending that the power
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Dynamic didn't exist.
Was it was a big mistake, you
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know, for me, we talked with so
many bosses and some of them
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have had really A horrendous
management experiences of their
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own.
But for me coming up, I didn't
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my my default experience, I had
four or five, maybe six
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different managers before.
I got my first management gig in
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the word, I would use for all of
them was just sort of a pathetic
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but they just didn't take
management.
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Very seriously, they show up to
the occasional one-on-ones,
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like, eating your vegetables.
They knew they had to do it, but
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like I was really the one
pushing for any any change in my
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role in my work.
Whatever.
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And I said to myself, I remember
thinking, you know, the first
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day I become a manager I'm going
to be better than they ever were
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because I'm going to give a
shit.
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That's it.
I'm just I'm just going to care
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and in the process of caring I'm
going to show up for my people
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really differently than my own
bosses have shown up for me and
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and I did as I had long
searching one-on-ones.
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I give lots of feedback, lots of
opportunity for growth.
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Congratulations Jonathan, what a
great boss you are.
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I had run to the other side of
the boat.
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I was like orderly ineffective
at giving them feedback when
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they screwed up, I was utterly
ineffective at holding them
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accountable for missed
deadlines.
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For Miss commitments, to other
teams because I was so focused
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on the relationship and them
having the experience of a
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00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:44,100
caring and involved boss that I
lost the plot on Effectiveness
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for my team and like what we
were accountable for whether I
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was pushing them and that was a
hard thing for me to unlearn,
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right?
How to how do you step back into
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holding those people
accountable?
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And not worry that you're going
to jeopardize the relationships.
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You just spent so long building,
particularly with people who
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used to be your peers, I got was
it took me work to undo that one
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and realize that that doesn't My
working relationship with those
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people, it just makes the
boundaries clearer but that is
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easy for me to spot that is a
mistake.
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00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:16,300
Now, I feel like both of what
you said have similarities in
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00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:21,100
that, you know, you Melissa
wanted to give away control as
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00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:23,400
soon as you got it.
And I feel like there's a lot of
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00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,200
relatedness to holding people
accountable and I find that it
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00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,300
is also particularly challenging
if you do have someone who is
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00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:32,900
senior and years or an
experience, then you, how did
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00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:37,100
you both turn it around?
And like, how did you realize
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00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:38,600
that?
You know, Jonathan you were
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00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,500
being too, friendly and Melissa,
you weren't taking the control
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00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:45,700
like how did youhow do you pivot
out of that?
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00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:50,000
Kind of situation if you happen
to be in it for me, it took a
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00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,500
while.
But for me I started to really
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internalize like, wait a minute.
I'm being paid to do a job.
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You probably wasn't until I was
a director.
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Honestly, the penny dropped for
me.
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I'm being paid to do a job.
I got a bunch of people on
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payroll as part of my
organization and we're here to
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00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,800
do something, right.
Started to be involved in
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00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,200
directors, meetings and and be
asked by my peers in
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00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,800
directorship and above what what
my team was committed to write,
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and how we were going to deliver
that.
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In the more I started to engage
with, like, oh crap, like about
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14 people on payroll in a
start-up fully costed even back
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then it's a couple million
dollars that the organization is
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00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:29,200
spending to get what, right?
And as I started to be in
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conversation with my peers and
management, that's when I
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realized.
Like I have an obligation here
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to the Asian, I have, I have
things that I'm being paid to
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get done for us and then I would
turn around to my team to be
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like, wait a minute, we're not
going to get these things done
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and, and how do I do that?
And sort of pulling that into
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conversation and saying, like,
yes, my my relationship with my
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00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:51,700
team as a superpower, it means I
can ask a lot of them because
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they trust me but I need to get
clearer on what I'm actually
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committed to that for me was a
real unlock realizing that that
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I had an obligation not just to
my people not to be a shit
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umbrella.
Like you hear people use that
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00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,700
language right?
I just got out of hand.
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I just got to get everything out
of the way so they can focus on
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their work, that's part of it.
But also that we're making a set
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of commitments, we're
accountable to other parts of
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the organization to fulfill
those commitments.
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And that once I really let that
in and started writing goals
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that Advance the organization's
goals instead of just writing
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down what my team was doing and
calling those my goals and use a
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real inversion for me and a
powerful one.
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It didn't hurt my relationship
with my people gave them some
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stretch.
It gave them a North star.
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Yeah.
And I think for me, I think that
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the mistakes that you make that
you're making.
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And because it's the first time
you're doing something often
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having an opportunity to like
really just sort of to basically
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screw it up then you're like,
okay.
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Well I know what that mistake
is.
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I'm not going to make it again
and I think the mistake of that
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00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,400
Purity boss transition and not
making those those sort of rolls
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and that power differential sort
of better defined, you do that
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00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,000
once ideally you don't do that
every time, right?
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And so I think for a lot of
Leaders, The Challenge of sort
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of going from being in a
relationship to being a boss
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Dynamic, once you've done it,
then the next time you You are
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more clear about it because, you
know, the implications, you
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00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:13,400
know, the downside of it.
Yeah, it's a great clip.
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Those two are incredible and
they have an awesome newsletter
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00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,000
that we should definitely
include in the show notes as
378
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,500
well.
Love everything that they
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produce.
Yeah, I'm so happy that you
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00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:28,200
included this episode because
this is actually the one that I
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00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400
share with people the most and
reference back the most because
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00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,000
it had such an impact on how I
think about things for different
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00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,000
reasons.
So, the thing that I really
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00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,000
latched onto with this episode
is, I mean, the title A bit like
385
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,900
making sure that you're being
super fucking clear.
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00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:45,400
I think it's so important to be
really, really there with
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people.
And it's so easy to think that
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you're being clear and setting
expectations when you're not
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00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,200
actually doing it in a way that
people are going to understand.
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00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,200
So, for example, if there's a
project that someone's working
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on that slate and I go to them
and ask like, hey, how's the
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00:20:01,208 --> 00:20:03,200
project going?
Is it on track?
393
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,000
That might seem to me.
Like, I am being really clear
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00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,200
with them that they have to
hurry it up.
395
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,400
It's late.
You know, we got to get going.
396
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:12,100
But to them, they're
interpreting that as just me
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00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,600
asking a question.
And so I think I used to do that
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a lot where I was asking
questions and being very subtle
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00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,800
and not really getting the
message across and that episode
400
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,900
taught me that like, if it's not
extremely extremely, extremely
401
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:24,200
clear.
What you're saying?
402
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,700
You know, it's, you're not,
you're not doing anything good
403
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:29,200
for them, like, it's there,
you're putting the people at a
404
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,400
disadvantage.
And so, I learned to go from
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00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,500
asking subtle questions, get the
point across to sing like, hey,
406
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,400
this is late, you know, we got
to make some changes and move
407
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,900
things along here, and yeah, you
know, for all the They're like
408
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,800
people that report to me stuff
I've shared that episode to show
409
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,200
them like when they have similar
problems where they're saying,
410
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,700
oh the person's just not getting
it.
411
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:48,000
You're not getting the point
across.
412
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:50,500
I share that episode and say
like you're probably falling
413
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,200
into this trap as well.
I like thunder and one tactical
414
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,200
thing that I took away from that
episode was Middle East has
415
00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,300
shared this sentence of saying,
my expectation is right like
416
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:05,600
being so clear and saying my
expectation is that you deliver
417
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,900
this by Friday, right?
Instead of asking like hey how's
418
00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:10,400
it going with?
Project.
419
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:11,900
Is there anything I can do to
help?
420
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,100
You can ask those questions for
sure but yeah, this episode
421
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:19,000
inspired me to be clear and to
set clear expectations with the
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00:21:19,008 --> 00:21:22,500
people that work with me.
Yeah, these are great learnings
423
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:27,400
and, you know, to segue into one
of my choices for today.
424
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:30,500
It's also about Clarity and so
one of the questions that, you
425
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,100
know, I've had for a while, it's
like, how do you know that
426
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:34,800
you're clear?
Like, you might think that
427
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,900
you're a clear, and what is a
good tactical way to do this,
428
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:45,500
so, For episode number 69 with
David Robinson and he was the
429
00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:50,200
former commanding officer at the
US Marine Corps, three decades,
430
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:54,800
as part of the Marines and he
was a former fighter pilot, and
431
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,100
he was a Top Gun instructor.
So very interesting, sort of
432
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:01,500
background.
And, of course, now he coaches
433
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:05,800
and he has a new book called the
substance of leadership.
434
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:08,700
So when we had them on the show,
it's all about the freezing.
435
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,700
I find sometimes X.
So we can play the clip.
436
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,900
The question is, how do you
connect your people to your
437
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:20,300
mission?
And I go into a discussion about
438
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,400
really revolves around inspiring
and empowering your team and you
439
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,500
know, Stephen one of inspiring.
Your team is really to help them
440
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:31,800
to get bought into the leader,
but step two is to help them.
441
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,500
Get bought into the mission.
So how do you get them to buy
442
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,800
into the mission so that they're
emotionally invested in Mission
443
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,000
success?
You know, to me it comes down to
444
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,000
well Patty Shan Les and Nancy
Duarte.
445
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000
Wrote a book called illuminate
and I really learned a lot from
446
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,400
from their book about for
techniques for illuminating,
447
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,200
your mission or your vision, so
that people can really get
448
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,800
emotionally invested in it.
And it revolves around, you
449
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,900
know, speeches where, you know,
it's not a long speech but it's
450
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:06,600
an it's an anecdotal way to, you
know, really take some time to
451
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,100
articulate the emission and
really focus on why it's
452
00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,300
important if you can just get to
the why people can really start
453
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,200
to embrace there.
The purpose behind it.
454
00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:18,800
Storytelling is so important for
making that emotional connection
455
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,600
with people.
As a squadron commander, I used
456
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,500
to love to tell stories about
the students that we train that
457
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,100
were out on the pointy.
End of the spear so to speak in
458
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:31,400
combat flying off of aircraft.
Carriers, the tell my unit, you
459
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,700
know how successful they have
been at training them because
460
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,900
they were successful and that
was very effective.
461
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,900
Also, the third element is this
idea around Sarah.
462
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,700
Moments where we get to
celebrate people and recognize
463
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,400
them in front of their peers,
which is so, so powerful.
464
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,000
And then this idea of a of
articulating or Illuminating.
465
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,800
The mission is so important.
I found a in that my people were
466
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,400
really starting to understand
the mission when I started to
467
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,500
feel like I was sounding like a
broken record and it just took
468
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:07,100
that much repetition because
there's turnover and then I
469
00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:09,100
would ask people what the
mission is, and when they could
470
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,300
play it back and I felt like
they really understood it and
471
00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:15,000
felt that conviction And then I
knew that the message was
472
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,700
getting through but it takes
time to get there.
473
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,600
Yeah.
And it's interesting that you
474
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,300
had to feel like you're like a
broken record player.
475
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,800
Like you said in for you to know
that it was you were there
476
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,400
because I guess the reason I
think this is an important
477
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,800
question is that you can't take
for granted that you know just
478
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,100
because someone is a marine that
they and they were almost like
479
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:39,800
pre-selected you know?
Not everybody becomes a marine
480
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,200
and so like just because they
have I've taken that oath.
481
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,600
It doesn't mean that they
necessarily there's many
482
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,200
different Missions at various
times and just like repeating
483
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,200
that makes it makes a lot of
sense but you also ask them like
484
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,100
how does it work when you ask
them?
485
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:58,400
What do you think the mission
is?
486
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,200
Or like what form does that
take?
487
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:03,900
Yeah, I've always believed that.
I've learned the hard way that a
488
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:05,800
message.
Communicated is not always a
489
00:25:05,808 --> 00:25:09,500
message received, right?
So I would, I would just be
490
00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,500
completely vulnerable and
humbling and I would say at the
491
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,700
end of You know, accession or
talk or you know, if I was
492
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:20,000
trying to explain the mission, I
would simply say I'm not always
493
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,600
the best Communicator.
I would love for you to try to
494
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,300
play back for me.
What you think I said.
495
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:28,400
And then if they played it back,
great, if they didn't, then I
496
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,200
had a chance to refine that a
little bit and say, well, I
497
00:25:30,208 --> 00:25:31,900
probably didn't explain that
very well.
498
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,600
Here's what I really meant by
that, so I put it on me.
499
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,300
The onus was on me.
Is the leader to make sure that
500
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:42,900
my team understood what I was
trying to communicate, okay.
501
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,600
So as a clip, says, I just love
this particular phrasing that he
502
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,200
uses because when he wants to
explain something, he may
503
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,700
explain it, and then he'll say
something like Manuela, I'm not
504
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:58,700
the best Communicator always, so
that I can get feedback on how
505
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,500
well I'm communicating this
concept to you.
506
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,800
Do you mind repeating what you
understood from what I said?
507
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:08,900
And a lot of times like we hear
this concept in other ways but
508
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,400
you know, people might say, hey
can you repeat what?
509
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,200
I just said, which sounds like
You're putting the onus on the
510
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,600
other person that's in, like, I
just want to make sure that you
511
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,400
were listening and that you
understood whereas like taking
512
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,600
the onus on yourself and saying,
like I'm not the best
513
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:23,800
Communicator.
Always.
514
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,500
So to help me get better.
Can you kind of tell me what you
515
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:30,000
got from what I was saying?
So we can make sure that we're
516
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,200
super align watch a great stuff
in this episode, but I think
517
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,200
like the Tactical framing like
this, is to me, the evidence of
518
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,600
someone who's like very deeply,
thought about how to communicate
519
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,200
and oftentimes Negation is like
it's the most difficult thing,
520
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,400
the larger, your company gets
the more difficult, it becomes
521
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,400
for everybody to get different
messages.
522
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,200
And so this one really stuck
with me and I try to use that
523
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,400
phrasing whenever I can.
I love that freezing too because
524
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,000
I feel like that opens up the
door for him to get more
525
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,200
feedback from people for other
things as well.
526
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,900
Because it shows that he wants
to grow wants to learn and is
527
00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:09,300
open to hearing about the things
that he could do better at which
528
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,600
is such an important thing to be
able to do as a manager.
529
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,100
Yeah.
Super great episode and also
530
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:18,700
great book that David's put out.
So everyone should check that
531
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:21,500
out as well.
We've had so many great authors
532
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,500
on the show like just to call
some out.
533
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:29,100
Kim Scott, Russ Laraway, Larry
Hogan Camille for near Lake
534
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:32,200
older books, and they're super
managers episodes are
535
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,200
incredible.
And of course, our favorite
536
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,000
author, Alexandra Sunderland.
And I see that you have, you
537
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,900
have the book in the background
remote Engineering Management.
538
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,800
Mint.
Yeah, it's become my my
539
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,700
background now, my book to show
off, hey there, just a quick
540
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:51,600
pause on today's episode to let
you know that we'd really
541
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,400
appreciate you helping us spread
the word about the super
542
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,900
managers podcast.
If you're enjoying what you're
543
00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:01,100
hearing so far dial into your
podcast app of choice, whether
544
00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:04,200
that's on Apple or Android or
Spotify.
545
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,300
And just leave us a quick
review.
546
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:11,100
Now, back to the interview.
Yeah, the next one I wanted to
547
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:15,800
talk about was episode number 95
with Heidi Hauser who was at the
548
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,300
time of the vice president of
people and experience.
549
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:22,700
At shiny docks, I really liked
this episode because she talked
550
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,400
about so many things that were
just so interesting and they
551
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,800
were a lot of comparisons of
leadership to Parenting.
552
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,800
That was another one that was
really fun to learn more about
553
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,300
Aiden from as well.
Because you talked about your
554
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:36,200
kids and that one which was,
which is pretty cute.
555
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,300
And there are two things that I
really liked about this in
556
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,800
particular, one is how she
talked about how it's so
557
00:28:42,808 --> 00:28:44,600
important.
So important not to solve
558
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,600
people's problems for them.
Because as a manager, sometimes
559
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,600
it's very easy like that, the
fastest thing you can do when
560
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,800
someone comes to you with a
problem, is just fix it for them
561
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,900
to show them how to do it.
That's not ideal because then
562
00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:59,500
they're not going to learn how
to do things themselves and,
563
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,300
and, and grow from that which is
putting them at a disadvantage.
564
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,600
And the other thing I really
liked is this quote where she
565
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,600
talks about when you mess up
that's up.
566
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,300
And I think we have a clip from
that here.
567
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:19,400
It's as simple as you know.
Mummy, I can't do this to Mommy.
568
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,400
I can't do this yet and so I
have been working with my
569
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:29,500
liberals on that notion that
it's not you can't you can't yet
570
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,300
and as much as you know, words
matter but the small Nuance
571
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:36,700
there has really even empowered
them.
572
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,000
They're only five and seven but
the seven-year-old more.
573
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,300
So you know at certain ages
there's this natural Wants to
574
00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:47,900
try new things because they're
starting to understand the
575
00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:50,000
potential, dangers of, you know,
riding the bike.
576
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,700
As an example, I may be able to
fall off my bike.
577
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,700
I may hurt myself and so I
remember last summer, you know,
578
00:29:56,700 --> 00:30:00,200
reading with my oldest about the
growth mindset, because I
579
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,400
started to and there's a ton of
great books out there, both from
580
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,100
a parenting perspective and
actually for kids, and I think
581
00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:09,900
that, you know, just changing
the language when my kids say, I
582
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,100
can't do that.
I correct them.
583
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,800
I go.
Oh, you can't yet.
584
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,800
And they have now started to
correct themselves and it's
585
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,000
really amazing to see because
again, it's that mindset is
586
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,200
changing your mindset of, you
know, that maybe you can't do
587
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,700
something yet now.
But that you're going to work
588
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:30,600
towards actually being able to
achieve that it can be really
589
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,800
powerful.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
590
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,400
And so the other one, I remember
from reading that book was
591
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,100
depending on, like, I mean,
teaching you how to give better
592
00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,200
feedback so say they get a good
grade on it.
593
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,500
Test.
It's not, you're very smart.
594
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:49,800
It's oh, you worked really hard
and you were able to get this
595
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,500
good grade on the test.
You know, there's this great
596
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:54,100
book out there.
It's a kids book called
597
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:55,300
beautiful.
Oops.
598
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,500
And it's a basically about
beautiful mistakes and how
599
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:02,900
through mistakes you learn and
something beautiful can come out
600
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:06,700
from spilled ink or, you know, a
mess that you make.
601
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:09,100
I think a lot of there's an
assumption that growth mindset
602
00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:11,200
means getting it.
Perfect, all the time and that's
603
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,800
not true.
I mean, most of the learnings we
604
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,900
all have both L and as parents
come from things, we do wrong.
605
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,700
The kids were listening to a
Show recently and it said, when
606
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:24,100
you mess up fessed up and I
thought how powerful is that and
607
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:27,700
as Leaders, that's one of the
best lessons you can make right
608
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:30,700
now.
The next time you mess up fess
609
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:33,900
up, you will have more trust and
credibility with your team.
610
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:35,400
Would you start to stand up and
say?
611
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Oops, I made a mistake here.
Oops pain.
612
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,000
Sorry.
No, that was my error.
613
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:43,200
And I think that, you know, what
over time.
614
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,800
That's you know, as Build
confidence as a leader.
615
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:48,200
It's much easier to kind of
thing.
616
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Oops, I messed up but I
encourage leaders to start now
617
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,900
because I think that was an
early lesson for me.
618
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:56,900
Once I started sort of
acknowledging, I don't need to
619
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:58,400
be the smartest person in the
room.
620
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:01,400
I need to be the person that's
going to cultivate a great
621
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,000
environment, bring the right
people together.
622
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:07,400
And again fill the gaps and
bring the smarter people, you
623
00:32:07,408 --> 00:32:11,000
know, more talented people on to
the team and recognizing, you
624
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,100
know what, I don't need to have
all the answers.
625
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,000
It's okay to kind Dove admit
fess up when you mess up.
626
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,900
So I think those are good words
to live by.
627
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,400
I really liked this in
particular because I think it's
628
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,200
so important to admit as a
manager when you're wrong, or
629
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,600
when you've made a mistake and
this is something that I do
630
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,300
super offensive, the extreme.
Like any time that I screw
631
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,900
something up, I will be very
upfront about it with the team
632
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:44,400
to the point where we have this
documentation section in the
633
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,300
engineering team, documentation
area, where we write out big
634
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:52,100
pages about things we screwed
up, why they happen and what
635
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:55,800
we're doing to fix them.
And I think like nine out of ten
636
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,800
things in there is written by me
because I did something really
637
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,500
wrong and I wanted to be clear
with people like I screwed up
638
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,200
badly.
Here's why it happened.
639
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,300
And here's how you can make sure
you don't do it because I think
640
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:10,500
that when you see managers being
open about times that they did
641
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:13,700
something wrong, it makes it a
lot less scary when you do
642
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:17,600
something and you're less likely
to sweep it under the rug and
643
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,200
pretend it didn't happen.
And it Or the problem, which is
644
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,100
definitely something that you
don't want to be hiding.
645
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,300
I really love that.
She had this quote for this when
646
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:29,600
you mess up, that's up.
Because I think that's something
647
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,600
that we should all live by.
I didn't know you had that in
648
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,900
your template.
So what is the the section in
649
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,100
the template called, it's a
folder in our engineering
650
00:33:38,100 --> 00:33:43,300
documentation, and it's named
mistakes failures and issues.
651
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,100
It's mostly things that have
gone wrong in the code and it's
652
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:49,000
code that I've written that just
did something really bad and it
653
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:49,900
goes way back.
Back.
654
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:53,300
Because I started here about
five years ago at this point.
655
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,600
And so, you know, I am not going
to go over like exactly what I
656
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,600
screwed up here because it's not
gonna sound good.
657
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,900
But I've caused outages.
I've caused things to go poorly
658
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:06,600
and I want to make it clear that
when people do things similar,
659
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,800
it's okay like, will recover
from it will fix the problem,
660
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,699
we'll move on, I don't want
anyone to feel bad about it and,
661
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:15,699
and not bring it up and solve
the issue together.
662
00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:19,600
So yeah, but a lot of it's just
me, I love that, I like that.
663
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,000
I think it shows a lot of
vulnerability which we've
664
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,100
learned through a lot of guests
is an important skill or value
665
00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:29,000
to have ASL either, right?
Like being able to own your
666
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,400
mistakes and also share those
learnings with the team.
667
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,699
So maybe in the future, they
don't make the same mistakes,
668
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,900
I'm sure a lot of marketing
leaders can resonate with the.
669
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:40,600
I don't know mistake of sending
the wrong email to a lot of
670
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,000
people hitting sent to early
before someone reviews their
671
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,400
work.
And I think that sharing this
672
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,000
mistakes with the team, And
yeah, prevent them from making
673
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,800
them in the future so good for
you for doing that.
674
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:57,900
Yeah, it's so important because
like you said, this is how teams
675
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:02,300
grow and sometimes it's great to
have a repository in that way.
676
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,100
And we recently started talking
again from that episode from Rue
677
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,500
Community about, you know,
elephants in the room, and I'm
678
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:11,900
sure we now have a section in
her inner meeting templates,
679
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:15,000
where we asked people to call
out the elephants, like that's
680
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000
actually a super, you know,
great thing.
681
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,300
People call it out, we look at
the elephant we figure out what
682
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,600
to do with.
So that also really, really
683
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,500
works and you know the other
thing I want to say is like and
684
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:26,900
this seems to be the theme,
right?
685
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:29,200
We're talking about a lot of
phrasing.
686
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,900
So a lot of times it's the right
phrasing will make all the
687
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:36,200
difference and you may
understand a concept, but to
688
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,400
really put it into practice.
Sometimes, you have to have the
689
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,300
right words and so, you know,
Heidi's comment there really
690
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:46,000
adds to that narrative as well.
So Manuela, what is your next
691
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,900
clip from?
I'm really happy that Alexandra
692
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:52,300
brought up.
This concept of not trying to
693
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:56,000
help your team in every single
way and letting them make
694
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,800
mistakes once in a while.
Right, Alexandra.
695
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,600
That's something that you wrote.
I just want to go back to that
696
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,900
concept.
Because one of my favorite
697
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:06,000
episodes ever, I was listening
to it yesterday and I was
698
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,700
thinking, oh my God, this is so
good.
699
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:11,500
Like I just wanted to share it
with the rest of the world.
700
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:13,100
I don't have you get to it right
now.
701
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,800
Is episode 134 with Lisa Weisman
and she's a famous author of
702
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,400
multiplier.
Is one of my favorite books as
703
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:27,200
well and in this episode list
talks about the concept of
704
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,300
finding the right size wave.
So, I'm going to let you listen
705
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:36,500
to that clip.
I think the art form of great
706
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:40,900
leadership is knowing when to
let someone fail and knowing
707
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:44,400
when to intervene because it's
naive to say, oh, well, you
708
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,900
should just let people take
accountability.
709
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:49,800
There are times when it's too
big to fail.
710
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,000
Like this is going to be
career-ending for someone, it's
711
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,300
going to be business ending, you
know, it's gonna do damage to
712
00:36:56,300 --> 00:37:00,000
someone and to knowing that
balance I think is an artform,
713
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,300
you develop as a leader, I'll
give you kind of a moment.
714
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:06,000
I I figured this out in life,
you know.
715
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,900
So all this time working as a
corporate manager I'm also you
716
00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:13,300
know becoming a parent and
building this like little brood
717
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,400
of family.
So I can do got for, I'm a
718
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,000
mother, I have four children and
there was this moment on a
719
00:37:19,008 --> 00:37:22,600
beach.
We were at Black Rock Beach in
720
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,700
Kaanapali on Maui and, you know,
maybe people have been there,
721
00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:28,400
but it's just like nice gentle
wave.
722
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,000
So, we plop down our little
family.
723
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,800
There, we have a seven-year-old,
a five-year-old and a
724
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,000
three-year-old.
Three-year-old is our son
725
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,400
Christian at this point.
And he, this is a kid.
726
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,800
That's absolutely drawn to
Danger he's 24 today.
727
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,500
And he's still like danger.
Let me go there.
728
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,900
And we would playing in like the
small waves and he kept toddling
729
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:51,900
out in the water till like the
big waves and he was drawn to
730
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,700
the big waves and I kept calling
him back and he kept going out
731
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:59,300
and it's become this little
comedy on the beach as he other
732
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:01,900
parents are laughing that I keep
having to pull them back to
733
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:05,400
where it's safe.
And he is not figuring this out
734
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,300
and I thought, you know what,
this kid is not going to learn
735
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:11,200
about the power of the ocean
from his mother.
736
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,000
Like he's going to have to learn
this thing from Mother Nature.
737
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,000
And so I'm like you know what,
I'm going to let him get taken
738
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,300
by a wave and so I'm looking on
the horizon for like the perfect
739
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:24,400
wave and I think you know, I'm
like, ooh that one's too big
740
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,100
that's gonna do too much damage
know, then that 10 that's too
741
00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:30,700
small and so I see this perfect
way which is, I'm looking for a
742
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:36,000
way that will tumble him and Are
him, but not sweep him off to
743
00:38:36,008 --> 00:38:38,900
Sea.
And so, when that wave comes, I
744
00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:42,500
step back.
I let go of his hand and I, you
745
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,000
know, I remember this because
other parents on the beach are
746
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,600
giving me that bad mother look
like whoa.
747
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:51,500
And I just like getting what
this one, he's got to learn from
748
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:53,700
it himself.
And so the wave takes him and
749
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:56,900
tumbles EM, you know, he like
comes up, he's spitting out sand
750
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,000
and and I remember looking at
me, like Mom, where did you go?
751
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:03,300
And that's when I kind of got
down, low looked at him.
752
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,400
Am I to I and my Christian that
ocean is powerful and these
753
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,300
waves are dangerous.
You need to stay here where
754
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,700
you're safe and and then he did
and you know, it's funny because
755
00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:18,900
he now is a surfer and I Kan
mazing skill with, but also
756
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:22,400
respect for the ocean and I
think it's like what I learned
757
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,700
from this is people have to
learn on their own but you've
758
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:29,500
got to pick the right size wave
and I think this is the art form
759
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:31,600
of good.
Leadership, is being able to
760
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,300
pick the wave.
Like, you know what?
761
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,500
This is a moment where somebody
can make a mistake, they can
762
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:40,900
make the their own call take
responsibility fail at this, and
763
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:44,300
they can survive.
Our business can survive the
764
00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:48,500
client engagement, Will Survive.
But this over here like this
765
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:52,400
could be very damaging, very for
them for the business.
766
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,700
This is where I need to pull
them back.
767
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:56,600
This is where I might need to
step in.
768
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,500
Maybe this is where I need to
micromanage a bit and so like
769
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,300
knowing how big of a wave people
can handle.
770
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,800
Oil is what we have to get good
at as leaders.
771
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,100
And I think one of the ways that
we can really encourage good
772
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:13,000
risk-taking is by letting people
know the difference between the
773
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,100
parts of the business that are
sort of playgrounds versus
774
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:18,300
freeways you know like right
here.
775
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,500
Yeah you can recover.
That's a playground.
776
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:23,100
Try new things experiment over
here.
777
00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:25,500
This is a free way.
You make a small mistake and it
778
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:28,200
could be deadly.
I've got a guide.
779
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,100
You on this one.
I need to drive on this one.
780
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,700
Okay, what I really like about
this concept of finding the
781
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:43,100
right size wave or picking the
wave is that least says that as
782
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:45,700
a manager.
It's important to let your team
783
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:50,200
fail once in a while, and I've
learned this as well through
784
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,900
trial and error that I don't
have to be involved in every
785
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,800
single thing that my team does.
Like, I don't have to review
786
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,300
every single line that they
ride.
787
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,300
And sometimes, it's important to
pick the wave and let them write
788
00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:06,700
the wave and then there's Stand.
That some projects can be owned
789
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:09,200
by people in my team and I don't
have to be involved in every
790
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,100
single part of it.
What do you think about this
791
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,900
concept of picking the wave and
letting your team ride?
792
00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:17,200
The wave on their own and owning
projects by themselves?
793
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,200
The first thing I wanted to say
about Liz was that was I agree.
794
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,800
An incredible episode.
She's one of the best
795
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,000
storytellers that I've ever
talked to.
796
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:30,100
She's just so engaging and every
now and then as a host of the
797
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:33,500
show, when someone is talking, I
just get lost in.
798
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,800
Words.
And I forget that I'm the host
799
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,000
and I have to pay attention and
I have to write things down and
800
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,700
like be engaged in the
conversation.
801
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:44,400
She totally had me transfixed on
the way that she did
802
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,300
storytelling said she tried to
call that out.
803
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:48,900
That episode is definitely a
must check out for everyone.
804
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,000
I think this is such a great
concept.
805
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,400
One of the things that I think
is challenging about the finding
806
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,900
the right size wave is like,
that's the hard part, right?
807
00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:01,800
You have to know what the right
size wave is and I think like
808
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,400
this is why this stuff gets More
difficult and sometimes I feel
809
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,000
like it's trial and error.
Alexander, do you have ways that
810
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,000
you figure out what the right
size for a wave is it's hard.
811
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,000
It's definitely a lot of trial
and error and finding you know,
812
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,500
things that are just Out Of
Reach for people's like
813
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:23,700
credibility so that they're
growing but they're not feeling
814
00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:26,900
uncomfortable.
And this concept kind of reminds
815
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:30,600
me as well of the episode that
you did with Bilal, I Jazzy
816
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,200
who's the CEO and co-founder of
Polly episode. 13.
817
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,000
And he talked about something
similar at the very start where
818
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,500
he was like involved in deploys
all the time at Poly and then
819
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,400
remembers the very first time
that he was on a flight going
820
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,300
somewhere and landed and saw
that like the team did a deploy
821
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,100
without him and just like the
wave of happiness that came of,
822
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:54,100
like they did it.
They did it on their own.
823
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:57,400
He didn't have to be involved at
all and how much he was able to
824
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,500
like, let go of control over
that.
825
00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:02,300
It kind of reminds me of that
like that that's like a really
826
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:05,500
good size wave that Team was
able to get on one thing.
827
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:07,200
I just remembered from this
episode.
828
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,800
He's at least talks about the
concept of playgrounds versus
829
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,400
freeways.
So she says, if a project is a
830
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,700
playground, there's less risk,
if people make a mistake, right?
831
00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:21,200
So like, they can try new things
experiment, maybe publish some
832
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,500
things without the manager,
having to review them in
833
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:25,900
marketing space.
But then there's other projects
834
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:29,100
that she describes us freeways
because if you make a mistake,
835
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,400
it could be deadly.
So in those kinds of projects,
836
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,600
it's important to be Clear as
the manager and say, like, hey,
837
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,700
I need to review your work
before before it goes out
838
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:42,000
because this is a free way.
It could be very dangerous if
839
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,200
things go out without my
supervision or my review.
840
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,700
So I really like this concept of
playground versus freeway
841
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:51,400
projects.
Yeah, it's super interesting and
842
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:57,000
I also like the idea going back
to being super clear just the
843
00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:59,900
saying that upfront.
Not retroactively saying
844
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:03,900
actually this is a freeway as
not a playground but but seeing
845
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,500
that stuff up, upfront sets the
expectations and then you know,
846
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:10,700
probably when there is feedback
or there is a change, of course,
847
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:13,000
required.
That's something that is then
848
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,700
expected.
And so one last thing I want to
849
00:44:15,707 --> 00:44:18,000
mention about this episode
Aiden, like you said, is that
850
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,200
lazy?
Such an incredible story teller
851
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,300
and she tells this story that I
think a lot of listeners will
852
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:27,200
resonate with, which is she was
working really late at the
853
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,500
office one day and then her
manager comes in and tell her
854
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:34,000
like hey I couldn't care they
could care less if We're reading
855
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,200
novels all day as long as your
team is doing the work and good
856
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,600
work, like you're the manager
and you shouldn't be taking on
857
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:45,200
all the workin staying up late
to finish all this project.
858
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,000
So that really resonated with me
because Liz says in the episode
859
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,500
that the role of the leader is
to really leverage the team's
860
00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:57,300
time and the company's resources
to make sure that work is
861
00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,700
getting done and the problem and
I'm sure both of you will
862
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:03,300
resonate with this.
Is that a lot of managers get
863
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:07,000
Emoted because they are top
performers, are high Achievers
864
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,100
and they love what they do.
So they end up taking on a lot
865
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:11,900
of work instead of delegating
it.
866
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:16,400
So that really resonated with me
and Liz is a great Storyteller,
867
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,100
so highly recommend going back
to the episode and checking that
868
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:22,800
out, I think that concept was so
important to is in another
869
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,500
episode.
Someone else mentioned, how if
870
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:27,500
you're as a manager taking on
the work and not delegating it
871
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:30,400
to other people on the team,
it's not good for you and your
872
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,400
time, like the said, but also
you're robbing them.
873
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,900
Of the opportunities to do that
work and grow from it.
874
00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:38,900
So I think that part is really
important as well.
875
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:41,000
Yeah.
And I think this is a perfect
876
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,300
segue and it's interesting where
the clip that I've chosen
877
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,000
because it can sound a little
bit controversial, but I think
878
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,500
it's actually related and also
points to why management is so
879
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:55,000
hard because it's not just about
Concepts, it's very
880
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,700
circumstantial.
You really have to figure out
881
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:00,500
you know what applies in that
particular situation.
882
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:04,300
And that's why it's a thing that
is very hard to A master over
883
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:06,700
the course of time, but yeah, my
episode.
884
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,500
My next episode is from David
Sachs and David Sachs was
885
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:14,800
episode number 100.
He was a, you know, co-founder
886
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,400
of PayPal.
You know, Co at PayPal today,
887
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:21,500
running craft Ventures.
Use a founder of Yammer, the
888
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:24,700
total to Microsoft for over a
billion dollars and he's an
889
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:28,300
investor in fellow, so we had
him on four episode 100.
890
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:33,000
And let's play the clip where he
talks about delegation.
891
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:40,000
First of all, you really do want
to encourage your managers to
892
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,600
think of themselves as the CEO
of their department or their
893
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,500
team.
And you want to empower them to
894
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:51,000
be able to act that way and take
actions semi autonomously or
895
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,400
have agency.
And if they're, for some reason,
896
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,800
they feel like they can't take
those actions, you want to
897
00:46:55,808 --> 00:46:59,500
figure out.
Why is there some dependency
898
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,900
that hasn't been near?
They lacking some skill or some
899
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:05,300
tools, some set of people.
Well that they need.
900
00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:08,100
So you know, always asking the
question well why is it that
901
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:11,900
they're not able to act like a
mini CEO will enable you to
902
00:47:11,900 --> 00:47:15,000
refine the organization in ways
that are helpful.
903
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:17,900
But you also just want to you
want employees who can act like
904
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:20,700
many CEOs and think of
themselves that way and then
905
00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:24,100
that kind of leads to you know
how you think about the output
906
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:28,000
of your team and what you know
Andy Grove says is that the way
907
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,000
to think about your output when
you're a manager is you don't
908
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,300
measure your performance
individually, you think of your
909
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,100
Mince as being the output of the
team, that's basically the
910
00:47:37,107 --> 00:47:39,300
difference between being an icy
and a manager when you're in I
911
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:42,400
see your output is just what you
do individually when you're a
912
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,500
manager or your output is the
team's output.
913
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,300
So you know that got me thinking
about, you know, how do you
914
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:51,600
think about Concepts like
micromanagement, you know?
915
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:56,300
And the way to think about it is
that when you're a manager, you
916
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:58,600
want to engage, you want to do
the things that maximize the
917
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,900
output of your team.
So usually that will mean
918
00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:05,200
empowering your team to be able
to achieve Eve, you know,
919
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,100
results.
So maximizing, the performance
920
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:11,100
of the ICS on your team, but
also, I don't think you need to
921
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:14,000
be afraid to roll up your
sleeves and do some of the work
922
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,500
yourself.
If you have the ability as a
923
00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:22,200
manager to take care of a task
more quickly than anybody else
924
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,400
on the team.
Whereas it would take your whole
925
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,400
team like a week to do it.
You should just do it yourself.
926
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,100
It's fine.
I think sometimes a lot of
927
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:31,100
managers think, oh, I'm a
manager.
928
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:33,100
Now, I shouldn't be doing the
work myself.
929
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,500
I'll just delegate The problem
is if you just delegate it and
930
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:40,200
then the person who you
delegated to delegates it and
931
00:48:40,207 --> 00:48:43,100
then it gets delegated all the
way down the chain, you'll end
932
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:45,300
up with the least qualified
people in the company, doing all
933
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,000
of the work and that can be a
problem, right?
934
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,200
I mean, everything gets
infinitely, delegated down to
935
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,100
like the summer intern or
something like that.
936
00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:56,800
So you want the person who's in
the best position to do the work
937
00:48:57,100 --> 00:48:59,200
such that you will maximize the
output to do the work.
938
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,100
And sometimes that means you
delegate it and sometimes it
939
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:04,400
means that you do it yourself,
what you want to do, as As a
940
00:49:04,408 --> 00:49:07,700
manager is to focus on the
activities that are highest
941
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:09,900
leverage, right?
And that's what you want to
942
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:14,600
think about is what creates the
most leverage in the role and
943
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,700
you want to allocate resources.
So that you produce the most
944
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:21,300
output and usually the resource
that is most important.
945
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,700
That is most limited is not
money.
946
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:26,000
But time.
That's usually the biggest
947
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,600
constraint that we have.
And so the key thing is to spend
948
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,000
your time wisely.
So as a manager, you want to
949
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,100
think about how do I allocate my
time Time to maximize the team's
950
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:37,600
output.
If it means doing the work
951
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,900
myself I'll do it myself.
If it means delegating, I'll
952
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:41,500
delegate it.
Think about like Michael Jordan,
953
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:43,200
taking the game-winning shot,
right?
954
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,800
I mean, he always wants the ball
in his hands when there's 15
955
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:48,800
seconds left in the game even
though everyone's guarding him
956
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,500
because it's a very high
leverage situation for him to
957
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:55,100
win.
And so, if you're in that sort
958
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:59,800
of like, the game is winding
down, it's a do-or-die moment.
959
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,400
The shot clock is winding down
the buzzers about to go off.
960
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,000
You gotta make sure the ball is
in the hands of the Person to
961
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,600
take that shot whether it's a
manager or the CEO, or something
962
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,400
like that.
Okay.
963
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,200
And so you can see, you know,
with the prior conversation on
964
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,000
the one hand, there's this
concept of like delegate and
965
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,500
make sure that you're not doing
all of the work and what I love
966
00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:24,700
about.
Like the contrast here is, you
967
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:27,900
know, David also says that like
if everything is delegated and
968
00:50:27,900 --> 00:50:30,800
everything goes down the loop,
then you're going to have you
969
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,200
know the people who are least
qualified doing all the most
970
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,800
important work.
And so this is where it gets
971
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,600
really complicated, right?
It's all about the right size.
972
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,700
Wave, you have to figure out
what things Is can be delegated
973
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:45,500
and should be delegated and
figuring out things that push
974
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,500
people just passed their zone of
discomfort but maybe not too far
975
00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:53,400
where they might drown.
All this to say is that this is
976
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,200
what makes this stuff really
really challenging.
977
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,800
You want it to be slightly past
people zone of discomfort but
978
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,500
also not everything needs to be
delegated and going back to what
979
00:51:03,500 --> 00:51:07,200
men while I was mentioning
about, you know, Liz is that.
980
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,500
Yes it's true that, you know,
maybe her managed didn't care if
981
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:13,600
she was Is reading novels all
day, but the point is that the
982
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,300
manager still responsible for
the work, right?
983
00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:19,500
So ultimately everything that
gets produced from that team,
984
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,400
like they're ultimately
responsible.
985
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,600
So if you can delegate a way to,
you know, the interns who just
986
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,400
started yesterday.
But you can guarantee that the
987
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,500
work is the right work, then
that's great but in practicality
988
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:35,200
that's usually not the case,
right?
989
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,200
And so there's just these
varying levels, I just really
990
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,600
like the way that David pose
that It sounds contrarian, but I
991
00:51:42,607 --> 00:51:45,300
think all of these different
stories actually say the same
992
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,800
things but they're saying it
from different lenses.
993
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:50,300
It's the pendulum of management,
right?
994
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:53,700
That's what you have called it a
couple times on the podcast or
995
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:56,500
the pendulum of the legation.
Yeah, depends ulam of
996
00:51:56,500 --> 00:51:58,400
management.
You know, I love this concept
997
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,800
and it's just so funny because
the first question we asked
998
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,500
everybody on the show is you
know, what was your biggest
999
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:06,300
mistake?
And it's very funny.
1000
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:10,200
It's actually a handful of
things, maybe five to ten things
1001
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:11,800
that.
That, you know, people often
1002
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,500
mention, and it's usually a
variation or a different wording
1003
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:18,600
of the same sort of error, but
usually, it's something like,
1004
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,600
well, I thought I was their
manager and I was micromanaging,
1005
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,400
everything and then I realized I
was micromanaging.
1006
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,400
So I gave them more free rein
and then I realized that I can't
1007
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,800
just let my hands off the wheel.
And so then I went and then you
1008
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,200
just go back and forth until you
find out that actually, I need
1009
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,300
to be it needs to be specific
for each and every person on the
1010
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:41,900
team and unfortunately, this
Stuff that you can't just read
1011
00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:44,000
in a textbook.
You just have to experience it
1012
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,000
and make those mistakes.
Yeah, and I think that as we've
1013
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,100
learned from all our guests,
it's something that you need to
1014
00:52:50,100 --> 00:52:52,500
continuously.
Work on, right?
1015
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:55,400
Like you're never done learning
about management or learning how
1016
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,300
to be a good manager and then
like you start managing a new
1017
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:01,100
teammates things changing the
company.
1018
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:04,300
I think you just need to have
this mindset of continuous
1019
00:53:04,300 --> 00:53:07,300
learning and that's why I love
this podcast so much because we
1020
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:09,000
get to listen from this amazing
people.
1021
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,100
Every single week.
Yeah, I have I've learned so
1022
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,600
much listening to it and a safe.
Like I feel like I've been 20
1023
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,300
different flavors of a manager
over my course of managing teams
1024
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:22,000
because the needs changed based
on the company's size.
1025
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,400
What problems were dealing with
the people.
1026
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,500
You have the structure and it's
always changing.
1027
00:53:26,500 --> 00:53:29,200
You're never done learning about
management.
1028
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:32,800
Yeah, which is why we're never
done producing this podcast like
1029
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,300
150 episodes in.
We're still learning will still
1030
00:53:36,300 --> 00:53:39,000
producing.
And hopefully we will have
1031
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,200
continued to have hundreds more.
And again like my favorite thing
1032
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,000
and hopefully, you know, the
audience, everybody the
1033
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,100
listeners.
Thank you all for for being such
1034
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:49,100
supporters of the show, what I
will say.
1035
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:53,000
Hopefully, what super managers
is also, you know, very useful
1036
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,800
for is, you know, figure out the
episodes that really make a
1037
00:53:56,808 --> 00:54:00,300
change for you and maybe we
listen to them.
1038
00:54:00,300 --> 00:54:02,900
Because, again, when you re
listen to those episodes, the
1039
00:54:02,900 --> 00:54:05,500
same exact episode different
moment in your management
1040
00:54:05,500 --> 00:54:07,700
career, you'll get different
learnings.
1041
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:11,600
And, you know, I think the other
thing that we do a Lot at fellow
1042
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,900
is we do share the episodes and
we do talk about them so it's
1043
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:18,600
very interesting.
Listen to the same episodes,
1044
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,900
everybody's going to learn
different things from the exact
1045
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:24,400
same episode so it's very
interesting to have everybody.
1046
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,600
Listen but then also comment and
learn from each other's
1047
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,500
learnings and examples to really
let those lessons sink in and
1048
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:34,400
we've seen that in the super
managers, slack work spaces.
1049
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,600
While writing the community that
we have, some people share
1050
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,600
learnings from the episodes that
I hadn't really picked.
1051
00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:43,700
On Earth God about.
So obviously they threw that a
1052
00:54:43,700 --> 00:54:46,800
quick shout-out to those members
of the super managers community.
1053
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,600
And if you're not one, you can
still become a part of it.
1054
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,200
So, you're invited and you're
listening to this episode.
1055
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,500
And yeah, I just wanted to say
these have been three incredible
1056
00:54:56,500 --> 00:54:58,600
years.
Like this is a great celebration
1057
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,800
of the podcast and we're so
thankful for everyone who's
1058
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,600
listening at the moment and hope
you continue to support the
1059
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,000
podcast.
So 8, and I'm curious what?
1060
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,000
Tips?
Tricks and words of wisdom.
1061
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,100
Would you leave the audience?
Okay.
1062
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:14,700
That's so funny.
Yeah, great question.
1063
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,200
What I would say is I'm going to
go back to episode.
1064
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,900
I forget what number from John
fasoli at MailChimp, but one of
1065
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:26,400
the things it was very odd.
When I heard him say it was, he
1066
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,600
writes down his mistakes every
single night, he literally has a
1067
00:55:29,607 --> 00:55:33,200
pen and paper by his bed and he
writes down mistakes that he
1068
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,500
made that day.
He just drops them down bullet
1069
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:39,200
form and it was so refreshing
and the minimal.
1070
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,400
Thanks for sending that episode
1. 31, you know what I really
1071
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,400
like about that is.
It's just like this, iterative
1072
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,600
process, but unless you
acknowledge what things were
1073
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,200
mistakes for yourself, you can't
actually get better.
1074
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,800
And again, my biggest takeaway
from doing this hundred.
1075
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,400
Fifty episodes in is those that
are actually the best in the
1076
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,700
world at what they do.
They practice in the same way
1077
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:04,900
that Michael Jordan practices to
practice to play basketball.
1078
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:09,000
It's like you pick something,
you focus on it, you write down
1079
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,500
your mistakes, you Journal about
it.
1080
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,100
It because like that's what
excellent steaks.
1081
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,900
And it's not a sort of thing
that you can just passively just
1082
00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:17,900
hope that you'll learn.
I mean, you'll get better, but
1083
00:56:17,900 --> 00:56:20,400
if you want to be a world-class
manager, you have to treat it
1084
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,900
like a sport.
And so, those are my words of
1085
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:28,700
wisdom for today after 150
episodes and so thank you
1086
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:31,600
everybody for listening.
Hopefully you enjoyed this
1087
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,200
episode.
If you like to hear these sort
1088
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,500
of in-between us Odes, you know
let us know.
1089
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:39,800
And maybe this is a thing that
will do more often but thank you
1090
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,500
so much for your support.
Part hundred fifty episodes in
1091
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:47,100
and hopefully many hundreds more
from here and that's it for
1092
00:56:47,100 --> 00:56:49,300
today.
Thank you so much for tuning in
1093
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:52,400
to this episode of the super
managers podcast.
1094
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:57,400
You can find the show notes and
transcript at www.elllo.org apps
1095
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,900
/ super managers.
If you like the content, be sure
1096
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:04,700
to rate review And subscribe so
you can get notified when we
1097
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:08,900
post the next episode and please
tell your friends and fellow
1098
00:57:08,900 --> 00:57:12,000
managers about it.
Be awesome if you can help us
1099
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,900
spread the word about the show.
See you next time.