Stop Chasing Success—Find Fulfillment Instead

Stop Chasing Success—Find Fulfillment Instead




(0:00) So, the nice thing is it's removing pressure. Also, thank you, little do you know, we're actually, (0:06) I'm testing this recording thing for the first time here, so it should hopefully be good. (0:11) I can do a do-over if I need to. (0:13) Yes, exactly, yeah. (0:15) And I might also, so, you know, no pressure there. (0:18) And then just checking, so are you okay, like we have about an hour, is that fine for your time? (0:23) Okay, cool, awesome. Well, welcome everybody to this Anthro Life, (0:26) excited to be back with you today. I'm your host, Adam Gamwell. (0:29) And I'm really excited to be joined once again by the wonderful Dr. Nethra Samara Kramer, (0:35) fellow anthropologist that's doing a lot of really, really powerful and important work (0:39) around the world of coaching and kind of helping people reach their potential. (0:43) So, I want to intro where we've been and then kind of get us where we're going. (0:46) But first off, I just want to say, Nethra, welcome back to the pod, good to have you. (0:50) Thank you so much, Adam, it's great to be back. (0:52) Awesome. And the reason I wanted to have you back is that, you know, (0:55) on our previous conversation, we were kind of diving into the questions and ideas around (1:00) the transformative power of listening, right? And what does that mean as a way to both listen (1:05) to oneself and listen to kind of how the world is resonating with you and how that kind of (1:09) builds connections with others and new kinds of context across human connection. (1:14) And there's been a lot of, a bit of time since we've last talked, but then also, (1:18) you know, your own work has done, I think, some really, really interesting and powerful (1:22) evolutions and kind of found its new space too. (1:24) And so, I love this idea of as we learn to listen to self and to the world around us, (1:29) what does that mean for our own transformations? (1:30) What does that mean for the kind of work that we can do? (1:33) And the theme that was catching me also around this is that as people have been rethinking (1:37) what the value of work in their lives is and what they can do with themselves kind of in (1:43) different spaces, I was really interested to kind of catch up with you and see where (1:47) we were. Like, what does it mean to kind of put ourselves in a space where we have values (1:51) aligned work that's doing the work that matters to me? (1:54) And then, how has that kind of shaped where we're going next? (1:57) So, let's kind of start with this idea of like, people are kind of coming to you around (2:00) these questions of kind of career moves and like, but that's changed a little bit. (2:04) So, tell me where you are now and like, and what we're kind of thinking about in terms (2:08) of from values aligned work into how are people finding you today? (2:14) Well, Vanetta, yes. (2:15) So, so much has developed since we last talked and it's developed, you know, I see my work (2:24) as a co-creation with my clients and I'm learning from them as much as they're learning (2:28) from me. (2:28) And so, over the past three years, I've had people coming to me from a very distinct place, (2:37) which is that there are people who have sort of gone through a career for a substantial (2:46) period of time. (2:47) So, these are mid-career professionals. (2:49) A number of them are in tech, a number of them are in non-profits, then there are people (2:54) who are creatives like writers, academics, but people who have really gone quite a ways (3:03) in doing the work that they really felt pulled to do. (3:09) And what's been really interesting to me is that they've reached a level of stability (3:14) and security in their jobs. (3:17) And they've hit what I call a crisis of need. (3:20) And so, a number of people, I'll give you some examples. (3:24) I have a number of engineers who come to me, a number of people who work in Silicon Valley (3:27) in tech, and they started off getting an engineering degree, let's say, and then kind (3:35) of worked through the pipeline. (3:39) They went, for instance, from Stanford to Google or a really comfortable job in the (3:47) Silicon Valley and really felt pulled to do some work that was meaningful and impactful (3:53) in the world and thought that this was the trajectory that they would take. (3:59) And yet, somewhere down the line, five years, ten years into their work, they find themselves (4:05) in this place where they're just like, I have stability in my life. (4:10) I'm getting promoted, I have a substantial income, and I have never been this unhealthy. (4:21) And so, this was a really striking thing for me to hear. (4:24) And I hear it again and again. (4:26) I hear it from engineers. (4:27) I hear it from people in the non-profit sector. (4:30) I hear it from academics, that there was this hope and vision for what work would do, but (4:37) somewhere along the line, the sense that I got lost and I'm spending my days as a kind (4:44) of cog in the wheel, a wheel that I didn't create. (4:47) And as a result of this, I'm very good at what I do, but I'm really disconnected from (4:54) who I am. (4:55) And I don't actually know. (4:58) I know I need to make some kind of change in my life, and I don't know how to do that. (5:04) And I don't know actually to look into myself and ask, who am I and what do I want? (5:10) So that is the starting point that people tend to come to me with. (5:14) Wow, that's super profound. (5:16) And I think there's so much there to unpack. (5:19) And it's interesting that I had a recent conversation with Dr. Anne-Laure Lecomte, who (5:24) is a neuroscientist. (5:25) And we were talking along similar lines, and kind of her approach to this is that we often (5:31) have this kind of, or are trained into this linear form of thinking in terms of creating (5:36) goals and saying, I want to achieve X, Y, Z by year five in my job. (5:40) And then I want to make sure that I'm in a certain position of this. (5:45) And she kind of argues that that model is broken in terms of, we find ourselves moving (5:52) along these paths, but then when at some point we find ourselves inadvertently kind of asking, (5:56) what am I doing? (5:57) And if something doesn't seem like it clicks. (5:59) And so I really appreciate what you're saying here too. (6:01) And this kind of framing of a similar type problem where it's that I've got the skill (6:07) set that I built. (6:08) I've got the degree. (6:09) I've worked through the corporate ladder in a certain direction. (6:13) But now that I'm in a certain point and I'm either at a new Vista where I can kind of (6:16) look around because I have some stability. (6:18) I now don't even know what I'm doing here. (6:20) Right. (6:21) Or why I'm here. (6:21) Right. (6:22) And I think that's, it's really profound to kind of think about this idea too, because (6:26) also a lot of us, as we are moving into the world, especially coming out of school, there's (6:32) a lot of energy and conversation around like the, get that first job. (6:36) Right. (6:37) But what I hear you saying too, in this space is that there's kind of an entire other (6:42) demographic that we don't often think about. (6:43) And that's folks that have already kind of made it in their, in their path a little bit, (6:46) or they're kind of gone into the forest as it were. (6:48) And then they now kind of looking to see the trees and saying, I don't know if I recognize (6:52) the path that I'm on, or if I do, I don't know why I'm on that path. (6:55) Right. (6:56) Like who am I in that place? (6:57) And so, yeah, I'd love to kind of break this down a little bit and kind of note, like how (7:02) has that then changed the way that you think about approaching conversations with folks? (7:07) Cause like, you know, last time we were talking and we see this also with career coaches (7:10) and other areas too, it's like, I want to help you kind of find that meanings, meaning (7:14) in kind of a value oriented work. (7:16) But then at the same time, like I might have, I guess it sounds like you're attracting a (7:20) new audience, I guess that that's kind of now saying I need that values aligned work. (7:24) I didn't like, I never started in that point. (7:26) I kind of did the linear path thing. (7:28) Now I'm lost. (7:30) And so do you see those kinds of intersections coming together where it's like folks kind (7:32) of in mid-career with more stability are coming to ask those kinds of value oriented (7:37) questions? (7:39) Absolutely. (7:39) Adam. (7:40) And I think, you know, the way I think about it is this tension. (7:44) I think that many people come to, which is this tension inside between a desire for authenticity (7:53) and a desire for belonging. (7:54) And this plays out in the working world, right? (7:57) So many people start off with following a social script. (8:02) We're all, you know, as anthropologists, we know this, we are born into a world that (8:09) has a certain set of codes and values and expectations and social pressures, right? (8:16) And so there is this model of success that many of us are fed of, you know, success (8:24) looks like this, right? (8:25) It's that linear trajectory of if you, you know, if you get this degree, if you do this (8:31) career, if you buy this house, if you, if you have a life that looks like this, then (8:38) you arrive. (8:40) And many of my clients felt that that was what they needed to do. (8:46) You know, they're incredibly passionate people and very, very hardworking people. (8:51) But the work that they were doing kind of followed this external script of what they (8:58) were told they were supposed to do to find happiness and to find success and to belong (9:03) in this world, you know, because that's a powerful motivator, much more powerful than (9:08) money, I think. (9:11) And so you get on this path where you do what you're told to do. (9:17) And it's fed to us through the institutions that we're in, through schools, through (9:21) college, through grad school. (9:23) Even if you go get a PhD, right, there's a path that's kind of, there's an arc that's (9:28) mapped out for you. (9:29) And you're told, get on this trajectory and you'll be fine. (9:34) And when you reach that model of success, you will receive connection, validation, (9:40) approval, and finally feel like you've arrived. (9:45) And the sense of inadequacy that you might be living with will go away. (9:51) And the sense of disconnection you feel from other people will go away if you make it to (9:57) this place. (9:58) And so this is the dream, I think, that motivates a lot of people. (10:03) And what happens is that we're not asked to ask ourselves, what do I want? (10:11) Who am I? (10:13) What gives me meaning? (10:14) What, what lights me up? (10:16) What gets me into a state of flow? (10:19) And many people actually are told that if you have something that you love, if you love (10:24) writing, if you have a political commitment, if you have a creative pursuit, do those things, (10:31) put that to a side, you know, do those things as a hobby, but really get in line. (10:36) Because this is what you're supposed to do, right? (10:38) So it's, it's working from the outside and it's asking oneself, how can I fit myself into (10:44) a path that's already carved for me? (10:47) And over the course of time, out of a sense, I think many of us have such a deep need to (10:54) feel like we're enough. (10:57) And what I find with so many professionals who have reached like a level of success that (11:04) is quite startling. (11:06) I'm really struck by how deeply there is still a sense of inadequacy. (11:14) And so what I start to work with people to do is ask them, you know, how can we change (11:23) the script from fitting yourself into something that's already there to working from the (11:28) inside out, to asking fundamental questions. (11:32) Who am I? (11:33) What gives me meaning? (11:34) Where is my purpose? (11:36) What lights me up? (11:38) And where is true belonging? (11:41) What feels authentic? (11:43) And is there a way for me to find authenticity and belonging in the same place rather than (11:51) see these things as polar opposites? (11:54) CBT That's really interesting. (11:57) I'm not sure I've like conceived of them as like being pulled that way in terms of like (12:02) authenticity and belonging, but I think that makes a lot of sense. (12:04) And I think it's part of the reason I may have thought about it this way is because (12:08) we don't think we're not trained to think of it that way. (12:10) Right. (12:10) It's kind of like authenticity is like, yeah, you be you and belonging, of course, is like (12:15) be part of a group. (12:15) Right. (12:15) And so we can kind of see how they become stretched, you know, as we are working in (12:20) a whether in a career, in a political group, you know, whatever it kind of is when it's (12:24) always kind of self, I don't want to say versus other, but self in relationship to other (12:28) in that so often I think, you know, what I'm hearing you say, too, is that like we tend (12:33) to get pulled often subtly, right? (12:36) Like sometimes more overtly into the like the belonging category that like pulls us (12:41) away from a more sense of authenticity of ourself. (12:44) And I mean, I think I suppose that's also why we're seeing and we have seen this like (12:48) bigger rise of like bring your whole self to work kind of philosophy or the idea of like, (12:52) how can you be more of you at work? (12:54) And these are ideas that I both like, but also find, if not, not cheesy, but just like (13:00) I've always found that we were in a workplace is saying, hey, let's be more authentically (13:02) you when you come to work. (13:03) And it's like, okay, like, let's think about why we're having that conversation. (13:06) So I feel like you're helping me kind of put together some of these pieces of my own (13:11) discomfort with why, you know, when I see a giant corporation doing this, I mean, I also (13:14) want people to be whole at work, but it always feels funny that like we have to then explicitly (13:19) attempt to do that through a workplace. (13:21) I think what's really cool about what you're saying here too is that a lot of this is about (13:25) like coming back to those fundamental questions, right. (13:28) And reminding folks that like this work is kind of about starting from where you are, (13:33) right. (13:33) It's not about like where you got on your trajectory or that's often because I got (13:38) to a certain point is actually why I realized I was lost, you know. (13:41) So how do we think about that? (13:42) Like, how do we kind of starting from this idea of like where you are as a place from (13:50) which we then can actually create that meaningful change? (13:53) That is such a great question, Adam. (13:54) And this is exactly my starting point, you know, I, um, people come to me, some people (14:02) come to me because I like, I want to change my job and people come to me saying, I have (14:08) tried changing my job so many times and I find myself in the same situation regardless (14:14) of what I do. (14:15) You know, I find myself burnt out. (14:18) I find myself over giving many people who I work with are also highly empathetic people. (14:24) And there's a lot of burnout. (14:27) There's a lot of feeling that there's just a sense that I've just sacrificed myself (14:34) again and again and again for a cause, for a corporation, for a job, you know, and this (14:42) is just unsustainable. (14:44) And so when people come to me, I say, you know, I don't help you write your resume or (14:51) your cover letter. (14:52) That's not the kind of work I do. (14:54) It's really about helping you write your own script for the life you want to live. (15:01) It's a very different kind of writing, you know? (15:05) And so, and then I think this is, this is where I have learned the most from watching (15:12) the trajectory of my clients was this question of, you know, the temporality in which change (15:20) happens. (15:23) So people might come to me and say, okay, like I want to change my job. (15:27) And the initial vision is that, okay, maybe this will take three months or this will take (15:32) six months, you know? (15:35) So, and that is true if you want to stay in the same field and, you know, get a different (15:40) job, you know, from one tech company to the other, let's say, but if you really want (15:45) to go on this path of asking, you know, what does success look like for me? (15:54) What is a life in which I can recognize myself? (16:00) Who do I really want to connect with? (16:06) Who are my people? (16:08) When do I, you know? (16:10) These are deep, fundamental questions that can't be answered in a couple of months. (16:17) Right. (16:19) And what's really interesting is that you can have a very ambitious dream, you know? (16:27) You can have a dream to start a business. (16:29) You can have a dream to bring a creative project into being. (16:33) You can have a really bold vision, but the time frame in which that vision unfolds (16:43) might be different to what you originally think. (16:47) And so when clients come to me, you know, one of the things I say is that it's not about (16:54) finding a career. (16:56) It's about working on this core conundrum of self-alienation and self-restraint. (17:01) And so when people come and say that, you know, I feel like I'm a cog in a massive machine (17:08) and I'm just like, I'm pouring myself day in and day out in doing what, you know, my CEO says (17:16) or my manager says, and then, you know, the next day all the work I've done has been just (17:24) put aside because another project comes, you know? (17:26) So there's just this sense of like, my energy is spent towards something (17:33) in which I can't recognize myself. (17:35) And that has become so normal for me. (17:40) I actually, the sense that of self-restraint has become the norm. (17:47) And I don't actually know how to give myself permission to do the things I want to do. (17:54) And that is the starting point. (17:56) So when I start working with people, I say, let's put the question of a long career change (18:04) on the shelf for a little bit and think about the tiniest increment in which you can return (18:12) to yourself. (18:14) The tiniest increment through which you can find a sense of meaning. (18:19) And so I can give you a couple of examples. (18:22) Um, for some of my clients, you know, it means one of my clients tried something, (18:28) uh, which was so surprising. (18:30) She said, can I take 15 minutes in my day to just take a walk around the block (18:37) and think about something creative? (18:40) So she took 15 minutes out of her work day. (18:43) She's like, that's all I can do. (18:45) And then what she realized was that nothing fell apart at work. (18:52) And she was like, oh, I can take 15 minutes of my time. (18:56) And one of the things they came to is reclaiming her time was a way of reclaiming her agency. (19:04) And so it's, it's through that, that small increment that she realized like, oh, actually (19:10) I can do something for myself. (19:12) You know, that, that started to grow. (19:16) And then she was like, you know, where else in my life can I take 15 minutes to do something (19:21) that gives me meaning and purpose? (19:24) And, and this is how we start. (19:27) And the end point is a career change. (19:30) The end point is a life that she designed for herself, you know, but it's really interesting (19:35) that I often say that the scale of our ambitions and the scale of daily action are two different (19:42) things. (19:44) The daily action is about the smallest possible increment. (19:47) And that over time creates a revolutionary change in their life. (19:55) Yeah. (19:56) Now that's powerful. (19:57) And I love that, that framing of, of, of thinking too. (20:00) Cause it's like, you know, making a career change feels huge. (20:05) Right. (20:06) And then, I mean, it feels, it feels big, but then what I think for a lot of people feels (20:11) even bigger is then saying, okay, well, what is my purpose? (20:13) You know, what do I get meaning out of something? (20:15) That's a big question. (20:16) Right. (20:17) Especially if you either are not a, you know, artistic type or like a, you know, love philosophy, (20:23) you may have either never asked those questions, you know, and, or like, they do feel antithetical (20:28) to here. (20:29) What are my KPIs in my, my quarterly goals for this business project? (20:33) Right. (20:33) It's like, nobody cares about what your meaning is. (20:35) It's like, your meaning is to accomplish these goals to, and, you know, improve your product (20:39) or whatever it is, or, you know, sell more. (20:42) And those can carry meanings, right. (20:45) They can provide some sense of purpose. (20:47) But what I like that you're saying here too, is that for a lot of folks, especially when (20:51) you achieve the success that comes from doing those kind of activities, it's, we realize (20:57) that there's like a dearth or an emptiness around the idea of like, what is the meaning (21:01) or the purpose that I both feel are, you know, am accomplishing through my work. (21:04) And then when I ask that question, it's kind of like, I don't even know where to start (21:08) with that because it's huge. (21:09) But then what I like you're saying here is like, we can actually then just kind of drill (21:13) it down to a small, tiny little thing that we can, we can do for ourselves when asking (21:18) around these questions of like, you know, who am I or what, what gives me joy. (21:21) And I love the idea of taking a 15 minute walk. (21:24) I mean, that's, I also love it because it's something that I've discovered for myself, (21:27) you know, a few years ago as well of like, oh, that's actually an important thing to (21:30) do. (21:30) Like one exercise, of course, but then even like something smaller than that of just like, (21:34) take that little walk outside, whether it's seeing the sunshine or just being near a tree (21:38) or something can, can make a huge difference in how you feel. (21:41) And then that, you know, as you noted to like the, your, your client there, it's realized (21:46) that work doesn't fall apart if I'm not there for 15 minutes, 20 minutes. (21:51) And I think, and I've, I've certainly felt that sense at work too, of like, oh, I can't (21:54) really take the time during the day to do it, do a small thing like that, or it feels (21:57) weird. (21:59) But then when you do, it actually says, I feel like the whole thing is a breath of fresh (22:03) air, right. (22:04) That I actually have that kind of space to, to, to breathe like that. (22:08) And I think what's interesting about this too, is that like, it's like transformation (22:11) feels like this giant thing because it can lead to something giant, you know, but then (22:15) I love this idea of the daily scale versus the scale of ambition, you know? (22:18) And so it's like it's interesting that it, it like sometimes takes a crisis for us to (22:25) then say, I got to make a change, you know? (22:27) And I guess is, is that like a, how do you, how do you think about that? (22:30) Like, what is it either about crises or like, how are people approaching with that, that (22:35) kind of mindset that like, this is the kind of change I need to make. (22:37) I'm like, how do we, let's think, let's think smaller. (22:40) You know, to make that change. (22:42) Yes, I think, you know, crises sharpen our vision. (22:47) They bring us to a point where the way we were operating before is no longer feasible, (22:54) you know? (22:54) And it, and it doesn't feel good at all. (22:58) You know, many people come to a crisis when there's a, you know, there's so much burnout (23:04) that now it's affecting your health. (23:06) Or, or it's like, I, you know, my, there's so much conflict in my family because I've (23:12) overgiven to work, you know? (23:14) Or your marriage is being undone. (23:16) Like something happens that, or you've been laid off, you know, over a series of times, (23:23) or you've had a massive conflict in your company. (23:27) Um, so it can be this momentous thing. (23:30) It can also be a small trickle that over time there's depression. (23:35) There is just a sense of like, I can't get myself to sit in front of my computer anymore. (23:41) You know, I can't bring myself to get up and go to work. (23:45) Right. (23:45) That there's this heaviness and there's this like denseness that builds over time. (23:51) And, um, and so it motivates people, you know, to go out and look for, well, what else is (23:59) possible. (24:01) And, um, and again, the thing about the crisis is that we also want to take quick action, (24:08) you know, and for quick fixes. (24:11) And this is where I help people slow down again. (24:14) Um, so if someone is just like, you know, things are so bad, I can't stay here. (24:20) I'm like, we don't, you don't have to quit your job right away. (24:24) You don't have to take a drastic decision. (24:26) So I'll tell you another example from one of my clients. (24:29) One of the things that I asked her to do is take five-minute breaks through the workday. (24:34) She was incredibly burnt out with, you know, a kind of toxic relationship with her manager. (24:41) And, um, so I said, let's start with five-minute breaks where you do something you love. (24:47) And that took a week for her to even give herself permission to, um, take those little (24:55) breaks. (24:55) But over time she was, she found this experience of like, A, I have choice and B, this is what (25:05) it feels like when I feel good. (25:09) And, and she, she, she put that time, you know, sometimes into playing with her dog, (25:13) sometimes into some kind of creative thing that she wanted to do. (25:20) And then, um, after many months of working together, she had this very difficult conversation (25:25) with her boss and, you know, I was like, okay, what can you do to come back to yourself? (25:30) And she stopped me and she said, you know, I just realized something before I would have (25:37) one of these conversations with my boss and I wouldn't have a self to come to, but now (25:43) I have a self to come to. (25:45) Because, you know, over the past few months, every single day I've been taking these five-minute (25:51) moments of returning to myself. (25:54) So I actually have a sense of who I am. (25:57) Wow. (25:59) No, I, I, I love that. (26:01) Um, and it's, it's interesting cause it makes me, makes me think about that there's, there's (26:07) this interesting tension between like kind of having that sense of self, that kind of (26:12) grounding of who I can, I can go, go back to and understanding what is my relationship (26:19) to myself. (26:20) Right. (26:20) And, and I think kind of recognizing that I have a relationship with myself, right. (26:24) You know, it's like this kind of thing that sounds weird. (26:26) Cause we're like, wait, is there two of you? (26:28) It's like, no, but it's just like, how do I relate to myself? (26:30) And like, um, so like, you know, with this, with this client, the story that I'm hearing (26:34) that there is this, uh, this like celebration that I know who to go back to now. (26:40) So I can actually tackle a much more difficult thing, um, with the toxic manager, for example, (26:46) because I know where I'm grounded, you know, in myself. (26:48) So, I mean, do you, do you see that kind of tension between like what the relationship (26:52) with self and then the idea of like knowing who to come back to? (26:56) Like how to, how to, um, do folks kind of come to that realization or is that something (26:59) that you see that is, is often hidden or not talked about? (27:02) Or like, how do we, how do we think about that idea of like how I relate to myself versus (27:05) who I'm coming home to? (27:08) Yes, Adam. (27:09) It's, um, I think it's emergent, you know, I think it's not, yes. (27:13) And I think it's a lifelong process of asking ourselves a question. (27:17) But I often find that, um, I think of it as a return, you know, and a recovery, because (27:26) what I've found from working with my clients is that that is something that everyone I (27:33) talk to and work with can find that brings them alive. (27:40) Sometimes very, very deeply buried. (27:44) And oftentimes it's counterintuitive. (27:48) And so it's these, um, these moments, these little moments of like asking, okay. (27:54) So I ask people when I start to work with them, like even thinking of your work day, (27:59) what parts of your work light you up? (28:02) And many times, um, my clients will say, you know, it's, there's something about (28:10) service that I value. (28:12) Right. (28:13) It's like, I was, for instance, I was talking to an engineer, um, very skilled at the (28:17) technical work he does. (28:20) Um, and when I asked him what lights you up, he said, it's these little moments of (28:25) conversations that I have with my colleagues. (28:29) It's connection, truly. (28:30) It's not the engineering, right. (28:34) It's these moments of conversation and connection. (28:37) And so he was saying that, um, the reason that work feels so hollow is that he's (28:42) lonely at work, but he doesn't have as much of these collaborative moments. (28:48) Um, so in the course of our work, we really started to think about how can I build more (28:53) of those collaborative spaces, both at work and in my life. (28:57) Uh, there was someone else I worked with, uh, who was sort of daring to do, um, again, (29:11) coding and engineering, you know, um, but there was just some part of him that was (29:16) just resisting sort of following the script of what he was supposed to do. (29:23) And it took him a long, long time of giving himself like little creative projects where (29:29) he would read the things he wanted to read. (29:31) He would, uh, uh, sort of write the things he wanted to write. (29:37) He just gave himself permission for many, many months to pursue whatever (29:43) got him in a state of flow. (29:45) And now he did that for a long period of time. (29:48) One day he was like, have a project. (29:50) I want to build this thing. (29:51) You know, this is what I want to create. (29:55) And, and it was that slow process of returning to what do I love? (30:00) When do I feel alive? (30:02) What, um, what makes me light up? (30:04) But, and the key question to ask is what do I value? (30:10) So this is where, you know, I have found that the movement from alienation and self-estrangement (30:17) into finding the sense of, um, self-connection and, uh, uh, a capacity to be, to live from (30:27) the inside out is the question of asking, where are my values? (30:33) What, where do I find meaning? (30:35) So it's that values alignment that also realigns you back into yourself and cuts (30:42) out that process of self-estrangement. (30:45) Yeah. (30:46) I love that idea too. (30:48) And I think something that, um, I'm putting on my, my listener hat here and thinking about (30:53) like something that I might be struggling with. (30:54) If I'm trying to say, I like this, this process sounds great because either I feel burnt out (31:01) at work or I feel estranged, you know, I'm lonely at work too. (31:04) Right. (31:04) But I don't know if, if I, like, I guess I maybe it's like if I feel a sense of inadequacy (31:09) that maybe I'm not the kind of person that gets to do this, like either I, either I'm (31:14) part of me might be afraid of like wanting to, uh, actually ask those questions or, or (31:19) I'm like, I'm afraid I'm gonna lose my job if I like take a little five minute walk. (31:22) So it's like, how do we, how do we kind of like talk to folks like that? (31:26) That it's like, I I'm just, I'm either feel inadequate. (31:28) Like, how do I deal with the, like, how do I even get there? (31:31) Like, I'm kind of afraid that people like me don't get to do that. (31:34) I hear this all the time. (31:36) And the strange thing is that I hear it from people in multiple places. (31:40) I hear it from startup co-founders. (31:42) Right. (31:42) So even at a legal level, this can come up. (31:47) And I think inadequacy is connected to belonging. (31:51) It's very much linked to that. (31:54) And so the, the, the internal, the inner critics say someone like me doesn't get to do this. (32:00) You know, it's only ambitious people. (32:02) It's only people like X, Y, and Z who can start their own company, who can, you know, (32:07) write their book or do, you know, do, do any of these things. (32:10) I just like to hang back and just sort of respond to what I'm asked to do. (32:17) Until the point that it just feels no longer sustainable to do it. (32:21) Yeah. (32:23) And so I help people cultivate self-compassion and self-love, you know, and take very small risks. (32:35) So if they have a writing project that they like to do, but are scared to share it with (32:41) the world, I say, write for five minutes and you're not going to show it to anyone. (32:50) Just, just, just do it for pleasure. (32:52) You know? (32:53) And after you get used to doing that for a while, then I say, is there someone you can (32:58) think of in your life who has supported you in your writing? (33:04) And then can you share it with that person? (33:08) And then they do that. (33:10) And then they get this vitriol experience of being seen for the very thing that they love (33:15) to do and the very thing we're terrified to show the world. (33:19) And we have an embodied experience of this is what it's like to like be fully me and to (33:26) take this risk of putting myself out there and to be received with appreciation. (33:35) Yeah, go ahead, sorry. (33:38) So, so it's, it's again, you know, you take a small risk, you try a small experiment, (33:45) you take a small risk, it serves, it helps, it builds capacity, it builds resilience. (33:52) And then automatically then you're like, who else can I show my writing to? (33:56) You know, what else can I do? (33:57) And so it has its own snowball effect. (34:01) Yeah. (34:02) No, I love that idea. (34:04) I think it speaks to something that you were saying earlier on too about this idea of kind (34:10) of finding my people as part of that, that belonging exploration process. (34:14) And like, this is, I think a nice example, because sometimes, you know, folks might think, (34:19) oh, you know, kind of finding your tribe, finding your people. (34:20) It's like, you know, folks I get, I get on with, but it sounds like this is more like (34:25) the things that I really want to do in the world are put out of what makes me happy, (34:29) whether it is kind of writing about something that I want to express, you know, or like, (34:33) writing can be, I either want to tell a story or it's like something I need to express. (34:37) Right. (34:37) And then being able to share that expression with someone and feeling seen, feeling heard (34:41) by doing that, like is incredibly empowering. (34:45) And I think, but there's, I think this really important other side too, that that's at play (34:48) that, that you're, you're pointing towards, right. (34:49) That it is like, it's also unlocking that process of finding your, your people. (34:54) Right. (34:55) Am I thinking about that? (34:57) Not the right way, but a useful way. (34:59) Absolutely, Adam. (35:00) And what I talk about is look for resonance. (35:05) I love that term. (35:07) You know, so it's not about networking. (35:09) It's not about putting on the clothes and going to these events. (35:12) Right. (35:13) It's really asking yourself the same question that you ask with work, right? (35:18) Who, what are the conversations in which I feel relaxed? (35:23) What are the conversations in which I actually lose myself of self-consciousness? (35:28) And feel seen and heard and connected with another person. (35:34) And what I find in answer to that question is oftentimes people say, when my vulnerability (35:41) is held with care, that's when I feel relaxed, when I feel safe, when I can share my work (35:49) with someone. (35:49) And, and what I find is that those people share the same values with you. (35:57) And so they're also lonely because they're also moving about the world saying, here's (36:03) this thing that's really important to me that matters so much, but I can't, it feels (36:08) very risky to share with the world. (36:10) And you put two of these people together in conversation and suddenly it's just like, (36:14) oh my God, that's possibility, you know, and there's this easy, relaxed sense of (36:20) togetherness and the sense of just like wonder and amazement. (36:26) And that process, you know? (36:29) Yeah, yeah. (36:31) It's interesting because it feels like it's both that this kind of wonder and awe that (36:36) kind of comes out of it because it's like, oh, I feel like it's a genuine connection, (36:41) right? (36:41) But also like, imagine like also this like, this like immense sense of relief too, that (36:46) it's like both expressed and then also like through connection. (36:50) I think that that's really powerful too, that we often don't give a lot of credence (36:54) to is like, when we find that connection, there's like this powerful, like, I don't (36:59) know, relief sense, I guess, or just like, that to me like engenders this like wonder (37:03) of like, wow, this is the thing that I can do that we can do together. (37:07) And it's like, and actually we're only doing it because we're together too, right? (37:09) It's like, cause I took a risk to share and you took a risk to hear. (37:13) And like, that is wonderful, like literally in the sense, right? (37:17) Of provoking wonder, you know? (37:20) I love this idea too, of like, kind of putting on your bravery and, you know, being, risking (37:28) kind of being vulnerable and sharing something. (37:30) But then like the reward is not so much that you got to share the thing, but it's like (37:34) that we can find a new way of connecting with one another, right? (37:37) That actually makes me more grounded in myself, you more grounded in yourself too. (37:42) And to me, like what authenticity is all about, right? (37:44) It's about, I think this, this anchoring, like in, this is who I actually feel like I (37:49) am, which I, which I love, you know, that has me thinking about this inflection pointer, (37:56) you know, cause a lot of this is also around workplace, you know, and kind of organizational (38:02) culture and how I'm operating as an employee or as a boss, you know? (38:06) And it's interesting to kind of think about the idea of like changing one's relationship (38:10) to oneself. (38:10) And we can see that it's kind of affecting this kind of dyadic relationship with somebody, (38:14) but like, how do we think about this? (38:16) In terms of leaders and leadership and organizations, you know, cause it's like that relationship (38:20) is one to many, it's a kind of, kind of, kind of a different operating principle, but (38:25) strikes me as like super important too, because we've all had, or probably, or we've either (38:29) all had or know a crappy boss, you know, and, and like, and no, no hating on bosses, but (38:36) just like, you know, but we gotta, we have to learn to work and like, you know, and if (38:39) you've been a boss, you can kind of know too, how hard it is actually to think about that (38:42) leadership journey and working with other folks. (38:44) So let's, I want to like dive into this area and kind of think about like, how do we think (38:48) about like leadership through self-change and what that can look like for folks and (38:53) what that relationship, you know, is kind of seen in your play. (38:56) Cause I think you work with, you've kind of worked with leaderships or leader, which is (39:00) leadership or leaders kind of in this area. (39:02) So how do we think about bringing leadership and leaders into these questions of kind of (39:07) self-realization and knowing oneself? (39:10) This has been an area of deep amazement for me, cause I work with startup co-founders (39:17) and what I have found is that many of the people, at least that I encounter have this (39:28) really interesting mix of ambition and a sense of inadequacy. (39:38) And the reason for that is this. (39:41) So the co-founders I've worked with have a bold vision, you know, and then many, many (39:47) of them sort of, they take this leadership role, they take this risk, they embark on (39:52) this path because they have a mission, you know, there's something that they do values (39:58) aligned work. (39:59) They have a sense of like, I have a purpose, I have a dream. (40:03) I have this big thing that I want to bring about. (40:05) And so many of them, it actually goes against the grain of the status quo. (40:13) So what happens then is that this authenticity belonging polarization starts to really play (40:22) itself out. (40:23) The more I kind of, you know, take this project that I have, take this vision that I have (40:29) out into the world, I see that it actually goes against the grain of how things are usually (40:34) done. (40:35) And suddenly I start to feel like, oh, if I'm authentic, I'm not going to get funding. (40:43) If I show what I want to do, you know, I'm not going to be able to market my product. (40:52) I have to, I have to shape shift my business in order to meet what the market wants. (41:01) So, so again, we start to see this experience of self-estrangement playing out. (41:09) And so the people I work with have what I call an impossible dream. (41:14) It feels impossible because it, it, it goes against the grain of the social world. (41:21) That's where power and beauty lie. (41:23) And that's where the person also feels really, really scared. (41:29) Because the threat of a loss of belonging, a loss of funding, a loss of a loss of that (41:36) very dream when there's no recognition of it from the outside world. (41:42) And so what I start to do with people is say, you know, how can we rebuild your (41:48) relationship to yourself first? (41:51) Where you get to come back to yourself again and again and again and say, what do I value? (41:57) Who am I? (41:59) How do I want to run my business? (42:00) So many of the people who come to me also want to run a business in which they treat (42:06) their employees with care. (42:08) That is, it's not, it's not about exploitation. (42:10) They want like the teams to thrive. (42:13) They want people to communicate, um, with a lot of intentionality. (42:18) They want collaboration, you know, and this becomes hard, very hard to do when the rubber (42:25) hits the road. (42:26) Yeah. (42:28) But, um, I work with my co-founders to really, you know, help themselves sort of build this (42:36) inner compass, but also really work on that communication. (42:40) And I help leaders to actually be vulnerable and I help leaders to learn this. (42:47) And so I'll give you an example from a startup co-founder I worked with. (42:51) It was very beautiful. (42:53) He came to me and he was just like, there's an employee that I, I think I need to let (42:59) go of. (42:59) And it's like, I can't do this. (43:02) I hate doing this, you know, like I don't want the bad guy, but this person is just (43:07) like over and over and over again. (43:10) He says he's going to do something, but he doesn't do it. (43:12) And it's holding up the team. (43:14) And I don't know where to go, but I think I need to like lay him off, you know, I spent (43:20) an hour and a half kind of walking him back from a cliff and really, we worked together (43:26) to be like, let's put what you do aside for a moment and let's focus on having a conversation. (43:34) And we really worked on, you know, I asked him, and you listen to what is preventing (43:40) him from doing the thing that you're asking him to do. (43:45) Something is not working in your communication. (43:48) Can you figure that out first? (43:51) So he went back, talked to his employee and he realized that the person was actually scared (43:56) to tell him when he ran into a rut early on. (44:00) And so he would kind of pretend that everything was fine until things blew up. (44:04) Wow. (44:05) Okay. (44:05) Yeah. (44:05) Yep. (44:06) And my, my, um, client basically said, what can I do to create safety for you to tell (44:14) me that things are failing? (44:17) So that you can come to me before things get difficult. (44:23) So he actually had to create safety for the change to happen, you know, and, and he didn't (44:30) lay the person off. (44:31) It changed the trajectory. (44:33) Wow. (44:33) Cool. (44:35) Yeah. (44:35) And that, that's like, I mean, not that I would not expect this, but that's like a (44:39) happy ending to the story too. (44:40) I was, I was waiting for him to get laid off, you know, but it's like, that's really (44:43) powerful for us to recognize too, that, um, if, you know, we're as a leader trying to (44:50) solve a business problem and I think you're totally right where it's like on the abstract, (44:54) we can think about how I want to like relate to my employees, but when the rubber hits (44:57) the road and I'm just not getting the work I need with this person, um, you know, the, (45:04) the instinct, I think as you're pointing out is like to, in essence, I mean, I don't know (45:09) if blame is the right term, but like you blame the other person, right? (45:11) Like, well, they're not doing their part without us kind of looking at ourselves and (45:16) being like, well, wait, how am I communicating with this person? (45:20) Um, and I love that too, because it's like, it's a challenge to do that. (45:25) You know, I think also again, like, as we've been kind of talking about this conversation (45:28) throughout, it's like that we don't often think about that question. (45:32) Like we, we tend to begin to ask it at a crisis moment, right. (45:35) Or like I'm burnt out. (45:36) I've, I've got too far. (45:37) Or like, what do I do? (45:38) I think I have to fire this person. (45:39) Um, and like recognizing that we never set the conditions of safety for them. (45:45) And I think, and it feels like there's like this, this other also, um, not extra step, (45:51) but just the other piece happening where it's like, what is this co-founder's relationship (45:54) to themselves? (45:55) Right. (45:55) And like, like, how are they kind of bringing that sense of safety or not into their (45:59) communication? (46:00) Like kind of implicitly, right. (46:01) Before they kind of began to think through with you, like, okay, how do I actually set (46:05) the conditions of safety by talking with this person? (46:07) Understanding like the, the fear of failure, it's one of those things like people might (46:11) be afraid to fail in general, but like, if you don't put the safety, like everyone's (46:15) going to be afraid to fail. (46:16) Right. (46:16) And that's, that's, that's very different, like upsetting the conditions where failure (46:19) is okay. (46:20) Uh, versus, um, implicitly never saying that and like realizing that that matters, like (46:24) how you communicate with your employees. (46:27) And so it's, it's interesting cause I, you know, I'm kind of bouncing back and forth (46:31) between this interesting idea of like the impossible dream too. (46:34) Um, cause it's funny because our, our society, uh, lionizes like entrepreneurship as like (46:39) the thing to do. (46:40) Right. (46:40) Because it's like, uh, you know, there, there's the, you know, you can be an employee, you (46:44) can be the cog in the machine. (46:45) Like I'm just saying as a broad sense, right. (46:47) Which, you know, we, we, we're kind of seeing that could be a bad way to feel, but then (46:50) also we're like, there's a societal narrative that says this, right. (46:53) You can do that, or you can become an entrepreneur. (46:55) They can be your own boss and write your own company and disrupt whatever and change about, (46:58) especially in Silicon Valley. (46:59) Right. (46:59) And around tech. (47:00) Um, but this really compelling kind of dichotomy, you've, you're kind of helping us realize (47:05) that the, the, the kind of sense of inadequacy or these impossible dreams, I kind of follow (47:11) a lot of this because it's like, I'm also trying to fit into the entrepreneurship box, (47:15) right. (47:16) And, and I'm like missing the, the, or, or having the same exact kind of problem that (47:20) like seems to only exist in the employee box. (47:23) Like, why is it also on this side? (47:24) Like I thought, I thought like me being me was, was the entrepreneur that was the way, (47:27) but realizing that it's like, I'm still here too. (47:30) Right. (47:30) And like, I still have to deal with me no matter, no matter whether I'm the entrepreneur (47:33) or co-founder leader and or employee. (47:36) Uh, and that's, I think that's profound. (47:37) Like to, you know, at the end, at the, at the end of the day, who's there? (47:41) It's you. (47:41) Right. (47:42) And like, whether you like what your role is, doesn't necessarily get you out of that. (47:46) Like, you can't, you have to go home to something and you're always going to be there at that (47:50) home, you know, and it's like getting comfortable with that home and recognizing what it is. (47:54) I think it's so important and it's, I think really powerful. (47:57) Like, especially in a leadership context, because it's like, you're setting the stage (48:00) for an organization. (48:01) You're setting, you set the ground rules, you know, oftentimes implicitly, I think as (48:04) you're pointing out here too, that we don't realize how we are or not shaping the way (48:09) that someone can come to work. (48:10) You know, it's not entirely on, on the leader, but like a huge amount of it is right. (48:14) And like what that ethos can look like. (48:16) Um, and I, I'm curious about this too, cause it's like, oftentimes we'll see organizations (48:20) talk about their, like their mission, their vision, their purpose, right. (48:24) From an organizational level, but it seems like a lot of that doesn't get translated (48:29) to, or from the individual, like the person themselves. (48:32) And then I'm kind of curious, like, have you seen that pop up or like, how might we (48:36) think about that? (48:37) You know, or maybe what advice do you have for leaders and co-founders as they're, if (48:41) they begin to excavate themselves, like how do you not just slap a cool sounding, but (48:47) ultimately empty mission statement to your work or your vision statement, you know, (48:51) in a way that also can alienate you from yourself and or your employees? (48:57) Yes. (48:57) And this is where I think the anthropological idea of praxis really comes in, comes into (49:03) play. (49:04) Um, and I introduced this idea to everyone I work with, which is how do we align our (49:12) words with our actions? (49:15) How do we align our work with our values? (49:18) Not just in the mission statement, but in every interaction we have. (49:25) And, and how do we encourage our employees to also do the same? (49:32) How do you work with people to be like, okay, I know you're hired for this role, but (49:37) like, where do you feel you can thrive? (49:41) Can you tell me what you don't like to do? (49:43) Can we find someone else to do that? (49:45) Right. (49:47) Can you train? (49:48) I think this is so important because people come from so many different places. (49:53) Can you train your employees in not just that technical skills, but their (49:57) communications? (50:00) So that, um, so that people keep coming back, not just to what we're doing, but how (50:07) we're doing the work. (50:09) And then shift from an outcome oriented mindset to a process oriented mind. (50:14) And this, this is the most powerful shift because in a process oriented mindset, (50:20) you make a lot of space for failure. (50:23) You create safety for mistakes and you enable experimentation. (50:29) When you do that, you end up solving for the right problems. (50:35) If it, if it's an outcome oriented process, you actually become blind to (50:40) everything that's going on because you're only fixated on the goal, the result. (50:47) But if you work through this process oriented way, you keep coming back to values (50:54) alignment. (50:55) You keep coming back to yourself, you know? (50:58) And so, um, this, I think is the, the deepest place that leaders need to put their (51:06) energy. (51:09) Before it's too late, like you do this right from the get-go, you do this in how (51:13) you hire, you do this in how you raise funds, you do this in, um, how you say no, (51:20) learning to say no to things that are not aligned, I think is the most powerful tool (51:25) that a leader can have. (51:29) And you get some, you know, you don't try and do it alone. (51:33) Yeah. (51:33) Yeah. (51:34) That, that's what I was thinking. (51:34) Cause it's like, and that requires courage, right? (51:36) To learn to both, to look inward like that, but then also to, to either say no to things (51:41) that don't work or that doesn't align, because it can be very scary to be like, I (51:44) actually don't want to take investment from this, this firm because their values don't (51:48) align with what we're trying to do with the company. (51:50) You know, or, and that's like terrifying to say, well, that was a shot of, we could have, (51:54) we could have stayed in business because I took that money. (51:56) And like, that's, it's a tough trade-off to think about, but, um, I love this idea of (52:01) like when you're having a process orientation, then you're kind of thinking across like, (52:04) if I'm doing, if I take investment this way, then what does that mean for what, what is (52:08) this kind of process? (52:09) Right. (52:09) And, and versus I want to get money, you know, and then that's the outcome and like how you (52:13) get there, whatever. (52:15) Um, and it, and it's like, what I love about this too, is to like, to bring us full circle (52:20) to is like, you know, the self is a process, right? (52:23) Like we're in like, there's no outcome. (52:25) Like when, when am I done being me? (52:26) It's like, I guess when I'm dead, but like, that's, you know, but even then like the story (52:30) of me for a little while, it's going to like evolve also, right. (52:32) You know, from any, if anybody decides to share it or talk about it, you know, um, (52:36) but it's like, while we're here, like that's, we're, we're always in process and it's like, (52:40) it's such an important thing to remember. (52:41) And, and cool to think about that, how that can reflect in work, right. (52:44) And how we, how we function as leaders with, with other people. (52:48) Uh, that's, that's powerful stuff. (52:49) I like that a lot, you know, um, as always, I'm inspired by, by, by the work that you're (52:54) doing and like getting me to think in new ways. (52:56) And I'm excited for folks to be able to check out your work too. (52:59) Like, so if folks want to learn more about, about your, your coaching practices, your (53:03) work, like working, working folks, learn more about you. (53:05) Um, they can come to my website. (53:07) It's www.workwithnetra.com. (53:11) And, um, if anyone wants to explore coaching, I offer a free 30 minute intro call. (53:18) Um, so that's how they can find me. (53:20) I also have a newsletter, um, that I send out bi-weekly. (53:24) I also run bi-weekly workshops called the holding space. (53:28) So if you sign up for my newsletter, then you'll get notified about that. (53:33) So those are the things that I do. (53:35) Very cool. (53:36) No, I'm, I'm super excited, um, to help folks connect with you. (53:39) And, and, uh, I'm really am enthused about the, about the work that you're doing. (53:43) Um, if I can just like, I'll throw one, one other question that's kind of on my mind is (53:47) like, as, as folks were thinking about this and we're kind of heading off into the world (53:51) now, like, uh, what kind of advice might you have for folks if they, if they want to like, (53:56) they want their work to not just like represent themselves authentically, but they want to (54:00) like actively contribute towards like the society that they want to see, like, how do (54:03) you help folks think about that, that framing? (54:08) I think the big question to ask is what is it that I love to do that also connects me (54:15) to others? (54:17) What is it that I love to do that also contributes to others? (54:22) And again, to start at the smallest possible scale and just see what it's like to do that (54:31) and ask yourself, how can that grow? (54:34) And allow the process to show you, um, what that intersection can become. (54:42) Yes. (54:43) I've been like jazz snapping. (54:44) Cause like that's, that's yeah, totally. (54:46) I love that too. (54:47) Cause it's like, and I think that's incredibly empowering just because it's like, I want (54:52) to affect the world in a positive way. (54:53) Right. (54:53) I want to make positive change. (54:54) I want to improve my community, my, my business, uh, whatever it is. (54:58) But then when I want to see that actually happen, like the idea that I need to then start at (55:04) the smallest thing that I can, like the atom atom, not me, Adam, but atomic, you know, thing (55:08) of myself to, to be able to kind of ask, what do I love? (55:12) What do I love to do? (55:12) Like, what's something small that I can, I can begin with, um, because that's actually (55:16) where that change begins for me to then connecting with others. (55:18) So I love that. (55:19) Uh, it's doable. (55:20) Right. (55:21) Which is the best part. (55:21) Like, this is not a, like, okay, you have to go climb a mountain now. (55:23) It's like, Oh no, no, no. (55:25) Draw a mountain first. (55:27) You know, and then, and then we can go from there. (55:31) Um, awesome. (55:31) Nothing. (55:32) Thank you so much for, for joining me on the pod today. (55:34) This has been awesome as always. (55:36) And I'm always interested to chat with you and excited to see where we can keep building (55:40) from here. (55:40) Um, so yeah, this has, this has been lovely. (55:43) Thank you for, for chatting with me again. (55:44) Thank you, Adam. (55:45) It's such a delight to speak with you as always. (55:49) Right on. (55:50) Um, I mean, we'll cut here, but like, is there anything else that we didn't talk about that (55:53) you want to talk about that I can, I can, I can add in. (55:55) Or I'm trying to think, um, I'm looking back at my notes. (56:06) Uh, it's also like, yeah, we can take a minute to like, to think through the stuff too. (56:16) Sure. (56:46) I think the only thing I, I'm not sure if I said is this phrase of like transcendence (56:51) takes time, you know? (56:53) Yeah. (56:54) I don't think we said transcendence, the actual word. (56:58) So I don't know how to bring that in, but, um, okay. (57:04) Uh, okay. (57:05) Let me see. (57:06) I can, so when, so I can ask you into it. (57:12) So transcendence, um, how do we want to, so if we're asking, I'll ask like an ending question. (57:20) So it's like the idea around, uh, I guess, how do I get into transcendence? (57:24) Cause like I had it like, that's like around meaning and purpose, but like, is there, what's (57:28) an easy way to get into that, that word for you? (57:30) Does that make sense? (57:31) Yeah. (57:32) So, um, is that the question in the podcast? (57:38) Sorry. (57:39) No, no, no, no. (57:39) I'm asking you that, but I'll ask you, I'm asking you how to ask that question. (57:42) How to ask the question. (57:43) Okay. (57:44) Sorry. (57:44) Um, yeah, maybe you can just ask, you know, right at the end about like, okay. (57:54) What's the relationship between the small unit and time? (58:00) Yeah. (58:00) Okay. (58:02) I can do that. (58:03) Something like that. (58:04) Whatever feels right for you. (58:05) Yeah. (58:08) And so I promise one, one final, final actual question I have to think about here is, is (58:13) this idea of like, how do we think about that relationship between these like small units (58:17) of action that we might take, you know, writing something, doing it for a small walk and (58:21) temporality or time? (58:22) Like, how do we think about what these small actions like work with in terms of putting (58:26) myself either on a timeline or I like to think about a time spiral, I guess. (58:31) The time spiral makes a lot of sense to me, Adam. (58:34) And I think that, um, you know, a phrase that I often tell my clients is we have to (58:40) think about the temporality of transformation differently to how we usually think about (58:45) it. (58:47) And transcendence takes time. (58:49) And by transcendence, I mean, if we've spent a whole lifetime becoming used to alienating (58:56) ourselves, that process of self estrangement needs to change. (59:01) And that sometimes took decades to build. (59:05) And so it's like a rudder of a ship, you know, you have to find the lever to push and it (59:12) turns the whole ship around. (59:14) And this tiny unit of action is that rudder. (59:17) But the temporality of transcending that and the temporality of learning to refind your (59:25) agency in your life is unknown and it's emergent. (59:30) And it's okay that it doesn't happen in a second. (59:34) But what's really important is that you have the reins in your hand and you realize (59:42) actually that I can direct where I'm going, not just alone, but with the people who matter (59:50) to me. (59:51) We can call Korea. (59:54) No, I love that too. (59:55) I think it's an important and powerful way to kind of end how we're thinking about this (59:59) is that it takes time, but that time is worth it. (1:00:03) That's the most worthwhile time that we can spend is on transcendence and being okay with (1:00:10) that, that it takes time because it's like we were saying before, that this is about (1:00:14) process and that we're unfinished beings. (1:00:18) I think what you said there also is super important that it sometimes takes decades (1:00:22) to get into this alienation, might take decades to get back out of it. (1:00:28) But what more worthwhile time can we have for doing that? (1:00:33) I love that. (1:00:34) That's like, I think it's just the right way to kind of say that if we're often concerned (1:00:39) of how I'm doing this or am I doing it right? (1:00:41) It's like, yes, if you're putting time into it, then transcendence can happen. (1:00:45) Give it that temporality. (1:00:48) Also, this is again, like super, super enthused and excited and a ton to think about. (1:00:54) I'm excited to kind of chat with listeners and watchers after this too, to kind of get (1:00:57) their thoughts of how this is kind of shaping the way they're thinking about approaching (1:01:01) it. (1:01:01) I'm excited to get folks to connect with you over at workwithnethrock.com. (1:01:05) We'll definitely connect that in our show notes and all the other good stuff in terms (1:01:10) of the coaching practices and things that we can link a bit. (1:01:13) So once again, amazing to talk with you and I'm so excited to share the work that you're (1:01:17) doing with the world and I'm glad that you're doing it because we need it and keep on doing (1:01:21) the good stuff. (1:01:22) Thank you once again and let's go. (1:01:24) Let's do it. (1:01:25) Thanks so much, Adam. (1:01:29) Beautiful. (1:01:30) Cool. (1:01:31) That was good. (1:01:32) That was so much fun.