Understanding the Trinity: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Explained

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Kind: captions
Language: en
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All right. So, here we go with more
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questions from Miller High School in
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three, two, and one.
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>> I'm Deacon Eric.
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>> And I'm Dr. Brett Sle. And you're
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listening to Thinking Faith. This is a
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podcast brought to you by the arch
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dascese of Regina where we attempt to
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navigate this winding road of faith in
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Jesus Christ so that we might know him
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more intimately, love him more
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profoundly, and together serve him more
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deeply in our daily lives.
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Welcome everyone to another episode of
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Thinking Faith. Uh our second in the new
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year. Uh our second with a new kind of
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strategic roll out of episodes, right?
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Um, so yeah, 20 episodes season. Um, and
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this, so this we're we're making this
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executive decision partway through
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>> our second season,
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>> right?
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>> I guess it's our third season. Who
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knows?
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>> That's right. Cuz we had a
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>> we get to call it whatever. had like an
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8 year long season or 9 year long season
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and now we've done like
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>> shorter seasons, but we're looking at
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doing 20 episodes, rolling them out
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every few weeks instead of every week,
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>> helping with production schedules and
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and recording and that kind of stuff.
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So, uh, digging into some more questions
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from, uh, Mrs. Rivers, uh, grade nine
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and 10 classes at Miller High School.
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Hello everyone. If you are able to
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convince Mrs. Rivers once again to give
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up class time so that you can watch our
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podcast. All the power to you.
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>> Right.
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>> There we go.
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>> I was delighted to hear.
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>> Yeah.
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>> That they actually what like so they
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gave you went and visited.
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>> They gave you more questions than you
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could possibly do.
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>> Yeah.
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>> You brought them back. Uh I think Mrs.
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Rivers organized them into Right. And
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then
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>> uh they actually watched an episode.
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>> Yeah. That's terrific.
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>> Which is cool. And I would have to say
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I've even since that first um episode
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that we did um other listeners uh saying
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how much they appreciated have
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appreciated hearing the answers and
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stuff.
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>> So it's a bit like the Conquest Boys
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Club thing that we've done and the St.
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Jerome's youth group.
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>> People seem to like this Q&A kind of
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thing.
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>> Yeah. Because I mean that's one of the
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things that I often will bring up to
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people like when you know on our late
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formation weekends or when uh you know
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when I'm out in any other format and I
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and I know you do this as well, right?
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Encouraging people to ask questions
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because generally somebody else has the
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same question,
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>> right? Right.
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>> And they're just they don't feel they
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have a forum to do it or they're, you
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know, one of those that isn't going to
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put up their hands and stuff. So,
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>> and one of the things I like I'll go out
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and do Q&A where I'm the guy, right? I'm
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the one with the answers and I love
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that. uh and I learn from the angle that
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the question comes from and I you know
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I'm I'm forced into new ways of thinking
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about it depending on where the question
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comes from. But the cool thing about
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doing it together is I get to do that
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and then I get to hear your thing which
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spurs a thing and like
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>> I know which is what why we've loved
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doing the podcast in the first place.
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>> So a Q&A with two people coming from
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different angles helps I think we both
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learn more from from that. So I I Yeah.
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And hopefully maybe that's part of
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what's enjoyable for the audience
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>> for the audience as well. So this week
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the question revolves around like the
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nature of God, Jesus and the trinity,
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>> right? So the big one the central
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question
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>> the central questions, right?
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>> Read the the the first question like the
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how did they put that?
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>> So it is what is the difference between
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God and Jesus? Are they similar at all?
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>> Right? Which on the one hand like
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someone might think like well we know
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Jesus is God like right but on the other
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hand like that's actually the whole
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question it is
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>> behind the development of the doctrine
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of the trinity. Right. So you have
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>> it was the central question when Jesus
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was walking the earth.
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>> Right.
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>> Right. Like this is where so much of the
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tension and confusion was coming from.
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>> Who is this guy and what's his
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relationship with God? God is the only
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one that can forgive sins, but he's just
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stood up and told this person their sins
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are forgiven.
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>> We were at mass two weeks ago and the
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gospel was John the Baptist sent
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>> Yes.
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>> his messengers to say, "Are you the
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one?"
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>> Yeah.
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>> Which is
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>> kind It's a form of the same question.
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>> And Flannry like it landed on her. You
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know, sometimes like something lands in
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a way that it's never landed before.
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Yeah.
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>> So, we're sitting in mass and that's the
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reading and as the homaly starting, Flan
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looks over at me and she's like he knows
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he's going to die.
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>> Yeah.
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>> John the Baptist is is he's preparing
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for his own death and he has built his
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life saying somebody's coming.
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>> Yeah.
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>> And now he's looking at at the immediate
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future and he's saying did I waste my
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whole life? Yeah.
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>> Was I wrong about you?
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>> Yep. He's focused his whole life on one
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thing,
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>> right?
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>> And
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>> and it's going to be over inside a week
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or whatever it is.
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>> And he's he says, "Before I go, can you
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just give me the assurance?
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>> Yeah.
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>> That that I was on the right track
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here." Right. And you can imagine a
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person, this doesn't mean John didn't
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have conviction over the course of his
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ministry. You can imagine a person who
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who had a ministry their whole life that
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they did with utmost conviction and with
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a week left on the clock goes was that
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>> was that
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>> was that the use of my life? Was that
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what I should have done with this
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limited time I have here? So she was
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like Flan was like
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>> she saw something clearly for the first
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time the paos of the question from John
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the Baptist like are you really the one?
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>> Yeah. um which is a form of this kind of
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question. Yeah.
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>> In the gospels, but then in church
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history when you look at so that we've
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said this before on the show, the
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doctrine of the trinity, the word
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trinity isn't in the New Testament.
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>> No.
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>> The um
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systematic articulation that you know
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shows up in the creeds for example.
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>> Yeah.
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>> In the early church
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>> of the relationship between those
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persons. Yeah.
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>> Is not in scripture. What we have in
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scripture is is a whole range of
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statements. Yeah.
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>> Mostly in the gospels, but also in Paul.
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>> Yeah. And they're assertive statements
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about a particular like reality of God
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>> that are hard to kind of
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>> reconcile. Yeah.
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>> So there are times, you know, the father
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and I are one. Y
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>> So that's one kind of a statement. Yeah.
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>> Uh whoever has seen me has seen the No
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one has seen the father, but whoever has
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seen me has seen the father. Okay.
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That's one kind of a thing. Uh, a little
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obscure, a little confusing, right? And
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then also like we talked about this last
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episode, like uh when's the time? I
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don't know. Only the father knows.
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>> Only the father knows.
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>> Wait a minute.
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>> But you just said
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>> but you just
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>> Yeah.
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>> Right. So what you have for like 3 400
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years in the early church is a kind of
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sifting of the evidence
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>> and there's the advocate too,
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>> right? The advocate, the pariclete,
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right? However you want to read.
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>> So the Holy Spirit is not in the
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question.
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>> Not in the question, but it's in the
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followup. Yeah.
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>> It's it's it's implied and it it happens
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exactly in this order in church history.
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The first question is, what's the
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relationship between Jesus and God? Or
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to be more precise, Jesus and the
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father.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Um and then they're like, oh, and then
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there's this other character here, too.
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And how does that fit? So the the Holy
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Spirit, if you look at the history of
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the creeds, the Holy Spirit is the
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question that gets tackled after the
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father-son question
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>> is tackled and on the same principles.
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>> Yeah.
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>> Right. It's like, okay, now we know how
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to do this.
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>> Yeah. like we've you know the first big
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question was Jesus and and God or the
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father
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>> and then it was okay now we now we have
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a rough understanding of how this
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process works
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>> and now we can the the holy spirit sort
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of follows in the same process um but so
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the yeah so what is the relationship
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between Jesus and God are they similar
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at all
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>> well one straightforward answer is Jesus
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is God
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>> y
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>> but that obviously is not enough to
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satis satisfy or it wouldn't have taken
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the church 350 years to you know or 300
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however many
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>> Nika we're celebrating the anniversary
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of Nika right now which is 325. So if
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Jesus dies in 330 or
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>> so yeah almost 300 years
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>> almost 300 years to get that sorted. So
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Jesus is God.
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>> Yeah.
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>> But God is not a mono.
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>> Well, God obviously not the theologian.
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That's what you did, right?
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>> Grade 9, 10 students. You broke our
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theologians.
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>> Well, well, and you're not the first
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ones, right? Not just me, but the
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theologians in general. This was a
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problem. So,
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>> the problem you're running into is that
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the there's no real language. That's
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>> We had to make it up. We had to make up
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new words or repurpose words.
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>> Repurpose some words. Yeah.
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>> Okay. Here's how I want to say it. Jesus
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is God. But that means that God is not
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exactly what you thought God was. Yes.
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>> That's how I want to say it. Right. So
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Jesus is God
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>> and the understanding was God as
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creator, right? Um and then uh which not
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just Judaism but lots of peoples
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throughout the world get to something
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like monotheism with a creator god
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creator god
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>> right u when when missionaries encounter
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indigenous people in North America
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>> they have a sense of
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>> it's not strict monotheism and I don't
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want like
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>> but it's close
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>> but there's some there's some clear
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sense of one creator god regardless of
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what else is happening in the divine
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hierarchy and this or that tribe in this
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or that time or place, there's a pretty
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clear sense of a creator god. Uh which
00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:16.389
the Bible says like you can discern that
00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:17.829
from looking at nature. Yeah.
00:10:17.839 --> 00:10:19.350
>> Uh paying attention to the world and
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:21.190
being honest. Right. So that's it's not
00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.030
uncommon that cultures would get to the
00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:24.949
point of a creator god. And that's good
00:10:24.959 --> 00:10:25.670
and true.
00:10:25.680 --> 00:10:26.150
>> Yes.
00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:30.069
>> Right. Um, but then if Jesus is God,
00:10:30.079 --> 00:10:32.310
Jesus is not just straightforwardly the
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.430
creator
00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.069
>> even though he is the creator, but he's
00:10:36.079 --> 00:10:38.230
in some relationship with the great,
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:39.750
right? In the beginning was
00:10:39.760 --> 00:10:42.389
>> the word and the word was with God and
00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.230
the word was God.
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.670
>> Right? So you're putting all those
00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:49.350
layers in. So what we and I was just
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.350
going to say and that in spite of Nika
00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:53.990
not happening for almost 300 years that
00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.069
wording from John's gospel happens
00:10:56.079 --> 00:10:58.870
within the first hundred years years
00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:01.590
>> that John is putting this together right
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.750
yeah and probably less than that cuz
00:11:03.760 --> 00:11:05.829
it's within a 100 years of Jesus's
00:11:05.839 --> 00:11:08.150
birth. So it's you're looking at like 70
00:11:08.160 --> 00:11:10.069
years from from his death
00:11:10.079 --> 00:11:11.670
>> that they're already working through
00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:12.630
that reality.
00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:15.030
>> Right. So and then that articulation
00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:18.310
from John is pretty informative for Nika
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.190
and whatever comes after right. Um so
00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.430
you have right the word was with God and
00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.670
the word was God is is labeling exactly
00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:28.710
this dynamic that Jesus is God and also
00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.430
is alongside
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.350
>> God in some sense. So one answer one
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.310
inadequate answer that emerges in these
00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.310
discussions in the early church is Jesus
00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.870
is the first and highest creature. Yeah,
00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.389
>> he's possibility.
00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.550
>> He's like a demigod. He was like created
00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:48.550
before all the other things,
00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:51.269
>> but he's but but still created.
00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.030
>> And the creed says, "No, he wasn't
00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:55.829
created. He was begotten, not made,
00:11:55.839 --> 00:11:58.790
conssubstantial with the father of one
00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:01.990
substance, the same kind of being as the
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.990
father." So this is this is interesting
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.590
because when I teach the trinity um in
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.230
lay formation, we actually start from
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.230
that that same standpoint with John's
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.829
gospel then going back to um and then
00:12:15.839 --> 00:12:18.230
talking about Aras and then going back
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.269
to the first chapter of Genesis where
00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.990
the word is spoken for the first time.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.389
>> Right.
00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:26.069
>> Right. Giving rise to all creation.
00:12:26.079 --> 00:12:28.389
Right. Which is kind of where Nika goes
00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:29.430
back to
00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.030
>> and stuff with that. Right. And even
00:12:31.040 --> 00:12:32.550
John, right? Through him everything was
00:12:32.560 --> 00:12:34.550
made, not any nothing was made without
00:12:34.560 --> 00:12:36.629
right that kind of sense. And which
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:38.870
forces you to recognize that
00:12:38.880 --> 00:12:40.790
conssubstantial nature,
00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:41.190
>> right,
00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:43.910
>> of them, right? When God speaks, the
00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:46.790
word that God speaks is God itself,
00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:47.269
>> right?
00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.790
>> Cuz the only thing that God God is this,
00:12:50.800 --> 00:12:53.829
we talk about God as being the simplest,
00:12:53.839 --> 00:12:54.150
right,
00:12:54.160 --> 00:12:56.389
>> of of
00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:59.269
essences, right? Right. Of being, right?
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.790
which means that the only essence that
00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:05.670
God has to share in any capacity
00:13:05.680 --> 00:13:06.230
>> is Godself
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.190
>> is God's own self.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.230
>> Right. Right. Right.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.389
>> So that's how that all kind of starts to
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.949
come together.
00:13:10.959 --> 00:13:13.110
>> And you mentioned Aras. So Aras for
00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:14.949
those who who aren't familiar. Aras,
00:13:14.959 --> 00:13:16.710
that's where we get the term Aryanism.
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.389
And Aryanism
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.629
among other things is this claim f first
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.310
and foremost is the claim that Jesus is
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:23.590
the highest creature.
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.150
>> Yeah. U and and and that's what's pushed
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:27.990
back against in the Nyine creed which we
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:29.990
celebrate the anniversary of
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.990
>> in 2025 right uh that no Jesus is fully
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.069
God he's not he's not just one step down
00:13:36.079 --> 00:13:37.590
higher than all the rest of us but one
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.069
step down that's angels that's where
00:13:40.079 --> 00:13:43.430
angels fit right uh angels are are that
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.990
first creation but Jesus is not a
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.069
creature and so I mean that's a that's a
00:13:48.079 --> 00:13:49.829
key thing if you're saying is Jesus God
00:13:49.839 --> 00:13:51.509
or what's the relationship Jesus is not
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.750
a creature Jesus is God but Jesus Jesus
00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:57.189
is the second person of the trinity. So
00:13:57.199 --> 00:13:59.750
Jesus is God incarnate but there are
00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:01.509
three persons of the trinity father son
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.550
and spirit and not each of them becomes
00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:08.389
incarnate only the second person of the
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:12.470
trinity uh the son becomes incarnate
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:14.470
which in John's gospel is called the
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.790
word and so one way of understanding
00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:18.470
which of the three persons of the
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.870
trinity becomes incarnate god's
00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:23.189
selfexpression
00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:26.230
so the father is the in a sense the
00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:27.509
originating principle.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:28.710
>> Mhm.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.350
>> The father speaks
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.870
God the father expresses Godself so
00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:37.189
perfectly that it is a person.
00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:37.509
>> Yeah.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.189
>> Now imagine this. We have we have
00:14:39.199 --> 00:14:41.350
stories about this. Right. Think of um
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:42.470
Pinocchio.
00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:42.949
>> Yeah.
00:14:42.959 --> 00:14:45.509
>> Right. So Japetto
00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:47.509
can create something. He's really good
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.389
at what he does.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:48.710
>> Yes.
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.030
>> Right. Jeppetto makes uh the best
00:14:51.040 --> 00:14:51.829
puppets.
00:14:51.839 --> 00:14:52.470
>> Mhm.
00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:53.829
>> But they're only puppets.
00:14:53.839 --> 00:14:54.150
>> Yeah.
00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.389
>> Right. So the human creative endeavor
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.269
would want if it could for its
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.150
self-expression to be so perfect that it
00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:05.990
was I love this line a real boy.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.710
>> Right. But we we don't do that. We can
00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.389
make puppets. We can make all kinds of
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.389
things in our self-expression that are
00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.509
really good.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:15.110
>> Yeah. And we keep trying
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.550
>> and we keep trying. That's
00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:18.470
>> but and when we do that we are chasing
00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.189
the trinitarian life. when we want to
00:15:21.199 --> 00:15:23.590
express ourselves so perfect that it's
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.590
unmistakably us.
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:26.150
>> Yeah.
00:15:26.160 --> 00:15:27.670
>> Right. That's what we want. And and and
00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:29.590
we lack it in in the fact that I tried
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.829
to say something 5 minutes ago and I
00:15:31.839 --> 00:15:33.590
stumbled and I retracted it and I said
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.269
it again differently because my
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:37.590
self-expression did not perfectly
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.030
capture what I wanted.
00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:39.910
>> Yeah.
00:15:39.920 --> 00:15:43.110
>> And so there was something lacking in my
00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.870
self-expression. And the doctrine of the
00:15:44.880 --> 00:15:47.670
trinity says there is nothing lacking in
00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:48.870
God's self-expression. God's
00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:51.110
self-expression is so perfect that it is
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:51.829
God.
00:15:51.839 --> 00:15:52.310
>> Yeah.
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:53.829
>> Right. So that's step one.
00:15:53.839 --> 00:15:59.269
>> Okay. So at the same time what God is
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:03.030
communicating God's self to very limited
00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:05.749
creatures and creation which requires
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.389
God in that self-communication to
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.509
intentionally limit God's self
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.069
>> right
00:16:12.079 --> 00:16:14.949
>> as part of so God is able to limit
00:16:14.959 --> 00:16:17.749
himself without diminishing
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.710
>> right I think this leads to like why the
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.790
second person why not the father why not
00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:25.110
the spirit why is the second person, the
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.509
one who becomes incarnate in Jesus.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:28.230
>> Yeah.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.509
>> The self, God expresses God's self first
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.470
in in eternity, in the trinitarian life
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.069
and and that's the second person of the
00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:36.870
Trinity.
00:16:36.880 --> 00:16:38.550
>> And we'll get circle back to the Holy
00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:39.749
Spirit in a bit.
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:40.069
>> Yeah.
00:16:40.079 --> 00:16:44.870
>> Um God expresses Godself in history uh
00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:47.189
well through creation, through the
00:16:47.199 --> 00:16:48.790
relationship with Israel. These are
00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:51.269
expressions. And so it's so it's through
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.030
the word that this happens. Through him
00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:54.470
all things were made. That's what it
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.470
says in in the beginning of John's
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.069
gospel as well. Right? So there's a
00:16:58.079 --> 00:17:00.310
relationship even though the father is
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.389
primarily creator. It's not independent
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.789
of the other persons of the trinity but
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.630
through the logos through the word
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.150
through God's self expression things
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.029
were made. So, so Christ or or or the
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:14.390
second person is present in the actions
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.270
of of the father, the creator, right?
00:17:17.280 --> 00:17:21.189
>> We we attribute certain actions to
00:17:21.199 --> 00:17:23.110
different members of the trinity not to
00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:25.189
the exclusion of the other members but
00:17:25.199 --> 00:17:29.110
to label the the particular relations,
00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:31.909
right? So, the father is creator, the
00:17:31.919 --> 00:17:33.990
son is redeemer, the the spirit is
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:35.990
sanctifier. That doesn't mean the others
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.590
aren't involved. Mhm.
00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:39.190
>> It it labels something about the
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.190
relationship between each and we won't
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:42.710
go into all the details but let's just
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.230
go into Jesus the sec the son who comes
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.710
to us on your point about
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:50.789
>> God's self-expression is perfect but
00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.909
then it is accommodated to our situation
00:17:53.919 --> 00:17:55.990
and our needs in the language of the
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.430
incarnation there's language of
00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.750
condescension which doesn't mean what we
00:17:59.760 --> 00:18:02.390
often mean by condescension uh right
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:04.230
>> condescension in in in kind of
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.909
theological terms is actually not a like
00:18:07.919 --> 00:18:09.110
>> it's actually quite nice.
00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:09.590
>> It is
00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:11.350
>> right. We think condescension is like
00:18:11.360 --> 00:18:12.789
you're making it pretty clear that
00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:14.789
you're above us and you belittle us. But
00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:16.390
in this sense it's you come to our
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.470
level. It's when it's when I'm
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.390
disciplining a child
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.029
>> who is 3 feet tall. Yes.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.669
>> And I don't discipline her from up here.
00:18:25.679 --> 00:18:25.909
Yeah.
00:18:25.919 --> 00:18:28.789
>> I go down on one knee so that I'm eye to
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.110
eye with her and I speak to her in a
00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:33.830
gentle voice. Yeah. at her level so so
00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:36.630
that I'm not overpowering her.
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.270
>> That's right. And using terms that speak
00:18:39.280 --> 00:18:41.909
to her and would be understandable by
00:18:41.919 --> 00:18:42.470
her.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:43.190
>> Right. Yeah.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.510
>> Right. So that's the condescension of
00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:46.710
the incarnation.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:48.870
>> And we actually understand that first
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.669
act of condescension was was uh
00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:53.750
scriptural and in history itself.
00:18:53.760 --> 00:18:54.150
>> Right.
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.190
>> Right. God first condescends when he
00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:59.990
speaks to Abraham and says, you know,
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.750
I'm gonna or walks with Adam and Eve in
00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:02.070
the garden.
00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.510
>> Walks with Adam and Eve in the garden,
00:19:03.520 --> 00:19:05.510
right? Wrestles with Jacob in the
00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:06.070
desert, right?
00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:08.470
>> God engages us at our level because we
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:09.590
can't
00:19:09.600 --> 00:19:10.710
>> engage him at his.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:11.750
>> Exactly. Right.
00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:14.630
>> Um and so this is appropriate for the
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.390
second person of the Trinity who is
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.470
God's self-expression.
00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.950
>> Right. Because expression can be
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:22.710
modulated to the audience.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:23.270
>> Yes.
00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:24.870
>> Right. And so there's there's lots of
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.190
beautiful stuff uh in the in the fathers
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.950
that talk about this even about um Jesus
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.710
for example not having certain knowledge
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.549
which is a kind of a mystery in
00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.070
scripture right where Jesus claims to
00:19:38.080 --> 00:19:39.830
not know things you end up with these
00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:41.430
weird interpretations right who touched
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:42.870
the hem of my cloak
00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.789
>> you're like okay is that a stunt
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.950
>> does he is he is he is he just doing
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.430
this for effect or does he actually not
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.909
know now scripture itself does not
00:19:51.919 --> 00:19:53.430
actually indicate that's a matter of
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.029
interpretation whether you think Jesus
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.190
is stunting or whether he actually
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.150
doesn't know who touches
00:19:58.160 --> 00:19:59.510
>> because there's other places where he
00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:00.870
seems to know everything. He knows
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.310
everything about Nathaniel.
00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:04.630
>> Right. Right. Or come MEET THIS MAN WHO
00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.830
TOLD ME EVERYTHING ABOUT MYSELF. RIGHT.
00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:12.150
>> Um and so as a Catholic, you are free to
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.150
believe that Jesus didn't know who
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:15.750
touched the hem of his cloak or that he
00:20:15.760 --> 00:20:17.830
was stunting. That's open to you. What
00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:20.070
you're not free to do as a Catholic is
00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:23.029
insist on the stunting interpretation
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.110
because you insist that Jesus was
00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.990
omnisient in his in his world human
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:28.549
knowing
00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:30.950
>> and yet we talked about this in the last
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:32.789
episode. Jesus is also very clear that
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:34.630
he doesn't know the hour or the day of
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:35.430
the end. Right.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:37.270
>> And there are there are passages in the
00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:40.230
fathers that talk about his ignorance
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.310
being something he took on for our sake
00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:43.190
in the incarnation.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.149
>> Yeah. Opening chapters of Luke's gospel,
00:20:46.159 --> 00:20:48.710
right? He grows in understanding.
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:49.990
>> How do you grow in understanding if
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:51.669
you're already omnicient in in the
00:20:51.679 --> 00:20:52.310
manger?
00:20:52.320 --> 00:20:52.710
>> Yeah.
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.750
>> Right. So there's there's so taking on
00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:57.669
the process of human knowing and
00:20:57.679 --> 00:20:59.750
learning in a fully human way
00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:00.149
>> Yeah.
00:21:00.159 --> 00:21:01.510
>> is part of the condescension
00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:04.070
>> and yet being able to remain fully God,
00:21:04.080 --> 00:21:04.470
>> right,
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.669
>> in that whole process.
00:21:05.679 --> 00:21:07.190
>> But there was something there was
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.510
something cloaked,
00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:11.110
>> for lack of a better term, about his
00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:13.190
divinity that that was sort of willingly
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.310
taken on. Yeah.
00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:16.870
>> Right. um that is in a certain sense
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:18.710
more appropriate to the second person of
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.070
the trinity
00:21:20.080 --> 00:21:22.070
>> as self-expression right because
00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:23.750
expression can be modulated to the
00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:24.549
audience
00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.149
>> so there's something particular about
00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:26.870
that right
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:31.029
>> yeah so then were the two at all alike
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:31.510
>> yes
00:21:31.840 --> 00:21:33.990
>> the father and I are one he who has seen
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:35.029
me has seen the father
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.990
>> has seen the father yeah
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.350
>> so there is a unity
00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:39.190
>> the word was with god and the word was
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.029
god like that that's those are all
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:42.390
pretty definitive yes
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.789
>> so Jesus is god now interestingly before
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.190
the incarnation. I mean, if you want to
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.029
be really careful, you don't call him
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:51.190
Jesus before the incarnation.
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:51.510
>> Yeah.
00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:52.870
>> You would refer to the second person of
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.950
the trinity or the word or the logos or
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:55.669
some
00:21:55.679 --> 00:21:56.230
>> Yeah.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:57.669
>> articulation like that.
00:21:57.679 --> 00:21:58.070
>> Yeah.
00:21:58.080 --> 00:22:01.430
>> He becomes Jesus the man.
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.029
>> Yeah. When he enters history,
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.870
>> when he enters history, he become right.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.990
So, so G properly speaking, Jesus is the
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.029
man God at that begins at the point of
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.029
incarnation. Now, of course, the second
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.029
person of the Trinity who is incarnate
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.789
as and in Jesus exists from eternity,
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.110
>> but the incarnation does not exist from
00:22:23.120 --> 00:22:25.190
eternity. So, you can I mean, it's fine
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.630
to be a little
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.830
>> little loose with your language
00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:29.110
depending on your context.
00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.190
>> Well, we live in we live in every
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.789
everything we're living in is like after
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.789
the fact, right, at all. Right.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.310
>> And so, when I talk to my kids, I'm not
00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:38.549
going to get super picky and there's a
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.149
way in which it's perfectly true to say
00:22:40.159 --> 00:22:42.470
Jesus has existed for all eternity.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:42.710
Yeah,
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:44.630
>> but if you want to be super precise, you
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.789
say the second person of the trinity or
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.830
the logos or the word has existed for
00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:51.909
all eternity and became incarnate.
00:22:51.919 --> 00:22:54.310
>> Yeah. Entered history, became incarnate
00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:56.149
and then died and
00:22:56.159 --> 00:22:56.710
>> rose again.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.510
>> Rose again.
00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:02.149
>> And now humanity is incorporated into
00:23:02.159 --> 00:23:03.830
the trinitarian life in this perfect
00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:04.390
way.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:04.789
>> Yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.270
>> First in Jesus
00:23:07.280 --> 00:23:08.549
>> for the sake of the rest of us.
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.390
>> That's right. And then through Jesus
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:11.190
with the rest of us.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.669
>> The rest of us. Right? We are called to
00:23:13.679 --> 00:23:16.149
that fullness of trinitarian life.
00:23:16.159 --> 00:23:19.190
>> Um and so this is I mean this is kind of
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.029
part of the scandal of the incarnation
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.549
is he takes on human nature but then at
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:26.230
his death he doesn't leave it behind.
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:26.870
>> Yeah.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.270
>> Right. So so the trinity So then is it
00:23:29.280 --> 00:23:31.990
accurate to say that the trinity itself
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.830
after the resurrection or at the
00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:35.350
incarnation
00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:38.070
is now altered
00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:40.470
in some way? Okay. It seems weird. It
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:42.710
doesn't seem right. And yet I don't know
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.110
again limited of language.
00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:47.270
>> The reality of it is different now.
00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:49.430
>> So the tradition
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.110
wrestles with how to say this.
00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:51.669
>> Yes.
00:23:51.679 --> 00:23:53.990
>> Right. So on the one hand, God is
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:54.950
unalterable.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:55.430
>> Yeah.
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.149
>> Uh and on the So what the what the
00:23:58.159 --> 00:24:01.590
tradition will typically say is God is
00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:04.710
unaltered in God's self, but God is
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.110
changed in God's relationship with
00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:08.149
creation.
00:24:08.159 --> 00:24:09.190
>> Okay?
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.029
>> Right? And so the the the difference
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.350
that was is clear, but we but we're
00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:15.110
nervous about how to articulate the
00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:17.510
difference because we don't want a God
00:24:17.520 --> 00:24:19.110
that is alterable
00:24:19.120 --> 00:24:21.430
>> because after the second person of the
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:24.390
Trinity becomes incarnate, dies and
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.470
rises again,
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.549
he returns and like still carries his
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:31.190
humanity.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.430
>> Humanity is brought into the Trinity.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:33.750
Yeah.
00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:34.230
>> Yeah.
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.190
>> Right.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:38.630
>> Yeah. So, so the the the typical like
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.950
the the simplified version of how the
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:42.789
tradition handles this this question
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.950
comes up in other contexts too. I can
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.269
imagine
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:47.830
>> right it has to do with um
00:24:47.840 --> 00:24:50.630
>> the problem of evil. It shows up in uh
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.350
it it shows up in in a bunch of things
00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:56.549
and the general form of the answer is
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.470
God is un in unaltered in Godself but
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.909
altered in relation to whatever the
00:25:03.919 --> 00:25:04.710
particular is
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.950
>> the potential for a relationship for
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:09.029
that intimate relationship with humanity
00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.909
is now like a full reality right
00:25:11.919 --> 00:25:14.310
>> cuz that's what God wanted in the garden
00:25:14.320 --> 00:25:16.230
>> was this like Adam and Eve in the garden
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.190
are sharing in the life of God Right?
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.750
>> That's part of the perfection of Eden.
00:25:21.760 --> 00:25:23.750
>> You you don't want an articulation that
00:25:23.760 --> 00:25:26.310
makes God like you can easily like tweak
00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:28.549
and manipulate and alter God. That's
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.390
like the danger on the one side.
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.470
>> But if you if you double down on that to
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:34.630
the degree that the incarnation makes no
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:35.510
difference.
00:25:35.520 --> 00:25:35.909
>> No.
00:25:35.919 --> 00:25:37.430
>> You're like, "Okay, so what's the gospel
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:37.590
then?"
00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:39.590
>> Well, it is so different like at you
00:25:39.600 --> 00:25:41.830
know even at mass when we're mingling
00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:43.909
water with wine, right? We're praying
00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:47.029
that that um yeah by the mingling of us
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.789
water and wine may we come to share the
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.110
divinity of Christ who humbled himself
00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:52.310
to share in our humanity.
00:25:52.320 --> 00:25:52.870
>> Perfect.
00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.510
>> Right. This is that's the articulation
00:25:55.520 --> 00:25:56.149
of it.
00:25:56.159 --> 00:25:57.830
>> Yeah. And if you if you come up with an
00:25:57.840 --> 00:26:01.190
articulation that preserves God
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:05.350
but sacrifices that dynamic then you've
00:26:05.360 --> 00:26:06.230
missed something.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.310
>> Yeah. Uh I mean this also goes to the
00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:11.269
question of process theology where God
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.310
is kind of evolving alongside creation
00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:16.149
and God is sort of subject to these
00:26:16.159 --> 00:26:18.630
changes in creation in Godself. So the
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:20.070
church rejects
00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:22.630
>> that. That's that's a that's a swerving
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:23.990
in the other direction. That's like
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.190
taking God's involvement with history to
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:28.950
the point where God becomes subject to
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:29.830
history in a certain way.
00:26:29.840 --> 00:26:31.830
>> It is well and one of so one of the
00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:35.510
critiques of religion um and of our
00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:38.710
approach to God is that we are in a
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.110
constantly manufacturing god in our own
00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:44.470
image creating a god to suit ourselves.
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.390
This is the balance to that. Right. The
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:48.870
check or the check to that no actually
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:50.310
god is unalterable.
00:26:50.320 --> 00:26:50.630
>> Right.
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.269
>> Right. This is we we and and the danger
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.830
in allowing God to be altered in our
00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:57.590
theology and our thinking is that we
00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:01.029
will actually start creating a god of
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:02.710
our own design.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.870
>> And and the the Jewish or the Hebrew
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.510
like real breakthrough in terms of
00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:12.390
monotheism cuz there's versions of
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:14.070
monotheism or what is it called
00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:16.710
henotheism where there's like clearly
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.789
one god is like the real god there's
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.549
these other gods that are not like
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.070
They're not the same thing as the big
00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:26.310
guy, right? Um, but monotheism proper,
00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:28.549
uh, there's a distinction in the Bible,
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:30.630
and this is revolutionary, and it's just
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.470
this insistence on the distinction
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:33.669
between God and creation.
00:27:33.679 --> 00:27:34.070
>> Yeah.
00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:36.710
>> God is not creation. And many many
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.990
religious um imaginings in in human
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.830
history, including, you know, nowadays,
00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:43.750
it's very modern times, we fall into
00:27:43.760 --> 00:27:45.909
that, too. uh to and it's you know it's
00:27:45.919 --> 00:27:48.230
a version of paganism where that
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.149
identifies God to some degree or other
00:27:50.159 --> 00:27:53.110
with creation and once that distinction
00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.149
breaks down uh the the biblical insight
00:27:56.159 --> 00:27:58.230
just gets lost like you you you no
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.389
longer have the biblical God once he is
00:28:00.399 --> 00:28:03.750
sort of subject to the created order
00:28:03.760 --> 00:28:06.789
right God is God transcends the created
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:07.510
order
00:28:07.520 --> 00:28:10.710
>> which allows him to enter it without
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.470
being changed in himself
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.029
his relationship with it changes
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.789
>> but in himself God is not
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.190
>> and without overwhelming the creation
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:23.750
>> right it allows it it allows God to be
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.669
God but it also allows creation to be
00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:26.310
creation
00:28:26.320 --> 00:28:30.389
>> yeah right yeah yeah exactly good well I
00:28:30.399 --> 00:28:32.950
think we are yeah I think we tackled
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.190
that to the best of our well we didn't
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:36.710
>> we didn't circle back around to the Holy
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:37.990
Spirit a little
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.310
>> do we want to talk just a minute let's
00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:43.190
do a little fit so in in scriptures
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.350
we've What's the rel the first question,
00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:47.510
the most obvious one posed to us by
00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:49.590
Jesus's own language in the gospels.
00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:49.990
>> Yeah.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:51.350
>> And the questions of the people around
00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:52.070
him
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:54.230
>> are what's Jesus's relationship with
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:54.950
God?
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.510
>> Uh and then and then you know this
00:28:57.520 --> 00:28:59.269
process happens where the early church
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:00.789
reads these things and tries to put the
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.389
pieces together and make it all fit. But
00:29:02.399 --> 00:29:03.990
then there's there's another piece like
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.789
floating around, right? I will send the
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.149
advocate. Um this kind of thing
00:29:10.159 --> 00:29:12.149
>> the advocate. He talks about my spirit
00:29:12.159 --> 00:29:14.789
within you, right? Um and the the early
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:19.029
church recognizes the Holy Spirit as the
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.350
indwelling of the Christ,
00:29:21.360 --> 00:29:21.830
>> right?
00:29:21.840 --> 00:29:22.950
>> Um in some
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:26.789
>> so the Holy Spirit is clearly divine uh
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:28.789
in the language of scripture and in the
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.110
experience of the early church.
00:29:31.120 --> 00:29:34.070
>> Uh and then the same question emerges.
00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:37.430
So, okay. So, if if Jesus is God, but
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.310
there's only one God and Jesus is not
00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:41.190
the father.
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:41.750
>> Mhm.
00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:44.950
>> Uh, well, that's so, so we've we've
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.950
cleared the first hurdle in a certain
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.870
sense because we've been forced into an
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:51.269
articulation that allows us to talk
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.110
about distinction within God that
00:29:53.120 --> 00:29:54.710
doesn't make more than one God.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:56.789
>> Mhm. And then you say, well, there's
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.789
this other character
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:02.310
>> who also is divine both in Jesus's
00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:04.630
articulation and in our experience of
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.630
the spirit, which by the way, we didn't
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:07.990
mention this, but we have in other
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.149
podcasts. It it was the experience of
00:30:10.159 --> 00:30:11.830
Jesus's divine,
00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:13.909
>> not only his articulations, but the
00:30:13.919 --> 00:30:16.070
experience, right? Uh primarily the
00:30:16.080 --> 00:30:17.909
resurrection, which makes sense of all
00:30:17.919 --> 00:30:19.190
the other experiences.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.630
>> And so, it's the same thing. It's the
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.190
articulation and the experience of the
00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.190
Holy Spirit as divine. But we've already
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.350
got the solution in principle
00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:30.710
>> because we already have figured out that
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.870
God is one. But God's unity does not um
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.710
uh mean you can't speak meaningfully
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:42.710
about distinctions within that unity.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:44.630
And so once you once you granted that
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.510
that there can be relations within the
00:30:47.520 --> 00:30:50.070
unity and we have the relationship of
00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:52.950
the father and the son as described as
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.669
god's self-expression or the word in in
00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:58.070
John's gospel. Well then okay there's
00:30:58.080 --> 00:31:00.310
one more piece here. How does it fit?
00:31:00.320 --> 00:31:03.990
and and it is something like uh okay the
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.110
god the father uh self-expression is so
00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:09.510
perfect that it's a person which is the
00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:11.110
second person the trinity or the son or
00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:12.310
the word
00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:16.149
>> uh and then the relation between those
00:31:16.159 --> 00:31:19.830
two is so perfect that the relation is a
00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:20.149
person
00:31:20.159 --> 00:31:21.269
>> is a person
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:22.310
>> right um
00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:24.789
>> and again uh we mentioned this in our
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.750
last podcast right we we along with
00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:30.070
Augustine only use person Right.
00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:32.070
>> Because it doesn't actually
00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:34.470
>> Yeah. It's the best we can get.
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:36.870
>> And we recognized that it it's not
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.990
actually describing person in the way we
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.029
understand.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.509
>> When we studied trinity in in deacon
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:45.430
formation, I remember there was a very
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.029
helpful book that that walked through
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:48.470
the history of the use of the word
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.590
person. And I'm not going to remember
00:31:49.600 --> 00:31:51.909
all the details, but basically person,
00:31:51.919 --> 00:31:55.350
it starts as is a Greek dramatic uh
00:31:55.360 --> 00:31:57.669
context. Persona means to sound through.
00:31:57.679 --> 00:31:59.350
It was the mask you put on. Yes.
00:31:59.360 --> 00:32:01.509
>> When you were doing Greek dramas and you
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.750
the voice came through the mass pair
00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:07.110
through sona anyways. So,
00:32:07.120 --> 00:32:09.029
>> okay. Well, this you can see why that
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:10.230
works and also why it doesn't
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:11.190
>> and also why it doesn't.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:11.990
>> Right.
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:12.789
>> Exactly.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:15.190
>> And and and you have to recast all the
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.549
terms, but uh this book said the the
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.630
best modern term and again it's not
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:21.830
perfect. It will have its own
00:32:21.840 --> 00:32:23.830
limitations, but it's a counterbalance
00:32:23.840 --> 00:32:25.430
to misunderstandings that stem from
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:26.549
person. M
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:28.149
>> the best modern word might be
00:32:28.159 --> 00:32:29.190
relationship.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.669
>> Mhm.
00:32:29.679 --> 00:32:31.190
>> Right. That in God there are three
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:31.830
relations
00:32:31.840 --> 00:32:32.710
>> relations,
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:36.470
>> right? Uh and so um so you have the Holy
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.190
Spirit is the relationship between the
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:41.110
father and the son. And the thing about
00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:44.549
relations that's really handy is you can
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.269
see how um the father is not the son and
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.549
the son is not the spirit and the spirit
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:50.149
is not etc. Right?
00:32:50.159 --> 00:32:52.230
>> The the doctrine of the trinity wants to
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:53.509
say that these pieces aren't
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.590
interchangeable. There's not just any
00:32:55.600 --> 00:32:56.870
three,
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.430
>> but rather there are three and they're
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.909
and and they're particular in their
00:33:01.919 --> 00:33:03.669
relationships with one another. Yeah.
00:33:03.679 --> 00:33:05.029
And that's one of the reasons why
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.630
relation is such a helpful
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:07.990
counterbalance to person. I think
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.230
there's an imaginative exercise that
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.389
Augustine enters into when he's talking
00:33:12.399 --> 00:33:16.310
about um the internal dialogues that we
00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:18.630
have where you can have a conversation
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:19.830
with yourself
00:33:19.840 --> 00:33:20.310
>> right
00:33:20.320 --> 00:33:23.830
>> mentally and know that you are a person
00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:26.549
who is talking to another person and
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:28.310
that the relationship you're having with
00:33:28.320 --> 00:33:30.789
that person is also
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:33.750
>> yeah in in Augustine the trinity what's
00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:35.750
the name oh I'm gonna misplace it but
00:33:35.760 --> 00:33:37.909
his famous analogy
00:33:37.919 --> 00:33:39.990
from human knowing. There's a word for
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:41.509
it that I'm not going to find,
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:43.350
>> is one of our best images of the
00:33:43.360 --> 00:33:44.149
Trinity,
00:33:44.159 --> 00:33:45.750
>> but he acknowledges, of course, that is
00:33:45.760 --> 00:33:49.990
limited as well, right? Um, but uh to to
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.990
put a bow on it with the Holy Spirit. So
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.389
the church has these articulations in
00:33:54.399 --> 00:33:56.070
scripture, has the experience of the
00:33:56.080 --> 00:33:58.630
scripture of the spirit as divine and
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.269
already has the solution in principle
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.149
because they've already moved from uh
00:34:04.159 --> 00:34:08.550
unity demanding uh um no distinctions.
00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:10.869
Once unity can have distinctions within
00:34:10.879 --> 00:34:14.310
it, then the spirit can and this happens
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.270
quite precisely in the walkthrough of
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.869
the creeds. Uh you have Nika which where
00:34:20.879 --> 00:34:23.270
the main question is christoologgical
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:25.430
and the Holy Spirit is a bit of an
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.550
addendum.
00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:28.470
>> Yeah. OH, AND WE OH, RIGHT. WE believe
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.270
in God the Father. We believe in Jesus.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.349
>> And we're going into detail
00:34:33.359 --> 00:34:34.470
>> and also the Holy Spirit.
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:36.710
>> And also the Holy Spirit, which which is
00:34:36.720 --> 00:34:39.109
a bit of a tack on whereas when you get
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.589
to later creeds that come from councils
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.669
that follow because the church was like,
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.909
"Okay, what we said about Na, what we
00:34:45.919 --> 00:34:48.550
said about the spirit in Isaiah is true.
00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:49.990
It's not that fleshed out."
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.270
>> Yeah. And so it gets a lot more detail
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.270
later because there are particular
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.589
questions that emerge even in the
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.910
distinction between east and west. Does
00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:01.510
the does the spirit proceed from the
00:35:01.520 --> 00:35:03.270
father or proceed from the father and
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.109
the son and how do we talk about this?
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.349
Um I am not an expert on this but it
00:35:07.359 --> 00:35:08.790
would be I have a friend who is it would
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:10.390
be good to actually
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:11.750
>> this is called the filioquay
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:13.030
controversy.
00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:14.150
>> It would be good to actually have
00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:15.270
someone who knows what they're talking
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:15.750
about.
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.109
>> Yeah. Uh my understanding is that the
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.270
majority of theologians
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.470
think that this is resolvable.
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:24.950
>> Yeah.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.829
>> And that um people who think it's not
00:35:27.839 --> 00:35:33.030
resolvable tend to be um on the eastern
00:35:33.040 --> 00:35:34.470
camp most of the west thinks it's
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.150
resolvable which is which is why John
00:35:36.160 --> 00:35:38.950
Paul II said to the eastern Catholics
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:40.710
that it is acceptable for them to say
00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:43.510
the creed without the felioke from the
00:35:43.520 --> 00:35:46.069
father and the son. So, so within
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:47.670
Catholicism, we can accept both
00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:49.349
articulations that
00:35:49.359 --> 00:35:50.390
>> um
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.069
>> for those in the East who think that's
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.589
not legit. Uh there is often a kind of
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.430
um anti-atholic like there's this like
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.109
well we're not going to be like you have
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:02.310
to win this one.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.230
>> You can't you can't actually come do
00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:05.430
common understand. Although the
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.430
gathering that Pope Leo had with um
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.390
Eastern um patriarchs
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:14.790
seemed to there was some inklings that
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:15.910
there was an openness.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:18.870
>> Right. Well, I think the patriarchs uh
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:21.190
the the main body of Orthodox
00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:23.430
theologians and I've heard I've heard I
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:24.950
think it was John Bear who's one of the
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.870
great Orthodox theologians of the last
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.470
you know century. Um this is a thing I
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.829
wish I remembered clearly. I mean, he
00:36:31.839 --> 00:36:33.190
gave an articulation and explanation
00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:35.510
that would just made such a ton of sense
00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:37.190
and it was quite beautiful. I think it's
00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:40.310
a minority voice that is more
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:42.790
anti-atholic than it is trying to be
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.589
traditionally orthodox that insists that
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.190
you can't resolve it and the Catholics
00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:49.750
just need to like drop the filio way and
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.150
that's the only resolution here. Um,
00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:54.310
>> but I don't know enough to say what John
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:55.030
Bear said that
00:36:55.040 --> 00:36:57.109
>> but there are inklings of openness.
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.750
>> Yeah. Most most people on both sides but
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:01.109
especially on the Catholic side. Yeah,
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.349
>> but the mainstream of the orthodox side
00:37:03.359 --> 00:37:06.230
think this is resolvable in principle
00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:08.310
>> but there is history and politics and
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.109
national it right it has less to do cuz
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.710
it it's pretty
00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:14.630
>> it would seem to me just in our
00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:18.470
conversation here um that it makes a lot
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:21.030
of sense with a mutual understanding
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:25.270
that neither expression actually is as
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.829
accurate like Aquinus says it's probably
00:37:27.839 --> 00:37:29.670
more inaccurate regardless of what
00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:32.310
you're saying Right. It is accurate. If
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.310
I'm remembering correctly, bear says
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.150
something like, "Look, when the West
00:37:36.160 --> 00:37:38.230
adds the Filioquay,
00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:41.349
here's the thing they were trying to say
00:37:41.359 --> 00:37:43.109
and here's the thing they were fending
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:44.069
off."
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:44.470
>> Yeah.
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:47.510
>> And we actually agree with that. But
00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:49.750
when they say this in order to fend off
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:51.030
this thing that we think should be
00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:51.589
fended off,
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:52.310
>> it also says
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.870
>> it implies this other thing which is not
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:55.589
so great.
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:55.910
>> Yeah.
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.470
>> And we want to put up a fence against
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.310
that. Right. It's one of those kinds of
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:00.630
things.
00:38:00.640 --> 00:38:01.510
>> Exactly. Yeah.
00:38:01.520 --> 00:38:02.870
>> But I don't know the particulars.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.750
>> There we go. Well, and so there you have
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:09.190
God, Jesus, and the trin and the Holy
00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:09.589
Spirit.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:10.230
>> Holy Spirit.
00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:10.710
>> Yeah. In
00:38:10.720 --> 00:38:11.910
>> our best attempt at the trinity.
00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:14.390
>> Best attempt at the trinity. Yeah.
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.910
You're welcome. Uh all right. Uh so we
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:19.990
are always grateful for you joining us
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.589
on Thinking Faith. those who are
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.829
listening, those who are watching, and
00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:26.630
as always, we continue to pray that God
00:38:26.640 --> 00:38:29.270
may bless you and those you love with a
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.109
faith that is always seeking
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:31.750
understanding.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:33.510
>> St. Thomas and St. Ignatius,
00:38:33.520 --> 00:38:34.390
>> pray for us.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:34.870
>> Amen.
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.880